From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Thu Nov 1 02:15:41 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 00:15:41 -1000 Subject: Transparency Spray? [was Transperancy Spray? ] In-Reply-To: <3BE11EA5.E633D0BB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030162551.02e4f8c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BDEDAC2.9950.113E5947@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031184410.02cde940@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101001430.02d24c40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 10:06 AM 11/1/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote: >Reese asked: > >> How dry will the air be at the burning cherry on a cigarette? > >Quite wet, because the combustion adds water vapour to the air. It won't >be much good at physically wetting things, because the air is warm, but >the water vapour is there and being hot will be chemically quite active. >Hold a piece of cool glassware near a bunsen burner or candle flame and >you will see lots of condensation. No, not *that* near... No, put it back in context: >>Here's a link to the MSDS >>http://www.ansul.com/Material_Safety_Data_Sheets/F-85312.pdf >>it says above 900 F Freon will decompose into hydrochloric and >>hydrofluoric acids. Doesn't mention phosgene, > >Try this one: > >http://www.vngas.com/pdf/g143.pdf > >> although you'd >>proabably get that if the air was dry enough. > >How dry will the air be at the burning cherry on a cigarette? How dry will the air be, at that point where the cherry is 900 F or so? Reese From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 1 00:55:35 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 00:55:35 -0800 Subject: Osama bin Laden as SF fan In-Reply-To: References: <3BE03A7F.D321BB05@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011101005406.03250200@idiom.com> At 02:21 PM 10/31/2001 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote: >*********** > >http://www.jerrykindall.com/2001/october.asp > >Apparently, "al-Qaeda" means "the base." Which will almost certainly >lead to an obnoxious rash of "al your Qaeda are belong to U.S." sightings. All your Berts are belong to us? >The name came into use when Osama used his cash to bankroll a series of >bases in Pakistan to assist fighters on their way Afghanistan to fight the >Commies. He used the opportunity to collect a rather valuable direct >marketing list of somme 40,000 names and addresses of dedicated Musselman >Warriors for future use. Wonder what dbase software he uses? PROMIS from Inslaw? From measl at mfn.org Thu Nov 1 04:18:07 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 06:18:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fw: New Scientist: Microwave Crowd Dispersal Tested (ADT) In-Reply-To: <804761CB-CE98-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote: > On Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 07:12 PM, cpaul wrote: > > > aluminum foil? > > > > > > * * * > > > > More inane pseudo-questions. > > The list has degenerated to a new low. > > Into the cornfield you go. Yes, but - Has he Earned Killing (tm) ??? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mybenefits2 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 06:18:31 2001 From: mybenefits2 at yahoo.com (Glenda Wagenman) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 6:18:31 PM -0000 Subject: health care, plus financial benefits ! Message-ID: <200111012321.PAA13913@ecotone.toad.com> Do you have all the health benefits that you need? Are you looking for greater financial independance? Would you like to develop a lifetime residual income that is both willable and sellable? Does anyone you know need to save more money on dental care, chiropractic, vision care, or monthly prescriptions? Visit our website to find out how you can enjoy TREMENDOUS SAVINGS on all of these services. You�ll be glad you did! http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/gwagenman You may also call (800) 647-8421 for additional information. 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A few features of our program: *Leads are exclusive---sold ONLY to you! *Leads contain 30 pieces of information regarding each borrower! *Leads delivered within 24-48 hours from borrower's original request! *Leads are sent daily--depending on your needs! *And best of all....pricing to meet your marketing budget! Dont forget to ask about our volume discount! TO ORDER YOUR LEADS, CALL (888) 725-9246! ********************************************************************************************************* Since you have received this message you have either responded to one of our offers in the past or your address has been registered with us. If you wish to be removed please reply mailto:leadm56 at yahoo.com?subject=remove ********************************************************************************************************* From user67 at excite.com Thu Nov 1 06:10:32 2001 From: user67 at excite.com (user67 at excite.com) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:10:32 -0700 Subject: Need Mortgage Leads? Message-ID: <8uuwps3jiy6m3.4xm17diobywq0@slip-12-64-196-198.mis.prserv.net> Are you a Mortgage Office in need of leads? We receive refinance requests direct from borrowers throughout the United States daily! Whether your office services one state or multiple states, our leads will meet your needs! A few features of our program: *Leads are exclusive---sold ONLY to you! *Leads contain 30 pieces of information regarding each borrower! *Leads delivered within 24-48 hours from borrower's original request! *Leads are sent daily--depending on your needs! *And best of all....pricing to meet your marketing budget! Dont forget to ask about our volume discount! TO ORDER YOUR LEADS, CALL (888) 725-9246! ********************************************************************************************************* Since you have received this message you have either responded to one of our offers in the past or your address has been registered with us. If you wish to be removed please reply mailto:leadm56 at yahoo.com?subject=remove ********************************************************************************************************* From info at gopreipo.com Thu Nov 1 07:10:52 2001 From: info at gopreipo.com (info at gopreipo.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:10:52 Subject: How to get in on an IPO! Message-ID: <20011101130548.920241C3E1291@smtp2.163.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at gopreipo.com Thu Nov 1 07:10:59 2001 From: info at gopreipo.com (info at gopreipo.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:10:59 Subject: How to get in on an IPO! Message-ID: <20011101130555.AA6C41C819CC3@smtp2.163.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at gopreipo.com Thu Nov 1 07:11:26 2001 From: info at gopreipo.com (info at gopreipo.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:11:26 Subject: How to get in on an IPO! Message-ID: <20011101130623.7C0941D067A93@smtp2.163.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at gopreipo.com Thu Nov 1 07:11:45 2001 From: info at gopreipo.com (info at gopreipo.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:11:45 Subject: How to get in on an IPO! Message-ID: <20011101130758.F30821CB053CC@smtp7.163.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dog3 at ns.charc.net Thu Nov 1 04:24:55 2001 From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:24:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: DMCA UCITA, where's the beef? (off topic) Message-ID: Aside from Dimitry, Has any "person" been successfully prosecuted under the DMCA? or under UCITA? or any other of these anti-piracy laws in the US? Operation Sundevil took place a relatively long time ago. We all hear dire warnings relative to software piracy and rumors of the Secret Service showing up and shutting a company down for bootleg M$ Office products and such things. But has anything like this actually happened? Yes, I hear folks go on and on about Steve Jackson Games, but I haven't seen anyone really concern themselves too much about the millions of bootlegs of M$ and Adon'tBee products in use in corporate america. Where lies the truth? anyone? From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 1 05:25:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:25:48 -0600 Subject: New law contains ID-card proposal -- The Washington Times Message-ID: <3BE14D5C.78D4048E@ssz.com> http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20011031-576161.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbroiles at well.com Thu Nov 1 09:01:58 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:01:58 -0800 Subject: DMCA UCITA, where's the beef? (off topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101084640.038a8b30@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 07:24 AM 11/1/2001 -0500, cubic-dog wrote: >Aside from Dimitry, (who *hasn't* been successfully prosecuted yet, just arrested - that distinction may continue to be meaningful for another few weeks so I'm sentimental about it .. ) >Has any "person" been successfully prosecuted under >the DMCA? or under UCITA? or any other of these >anti-piracy laws in the US? I'm not sure what you mean when you put person in quotes like that. Yes, there have been some successful criminal cases against copyright infringers - the legislation of particular interest was called the "No Electronic Theft Act" (UCITA is mostly concerned with licensing details, not piracy per se). A self-congratulatory press release from the US DOJ after the first NETA prosecution in 1999 can be found at ; there have been other arrests, which, like most federal prosecutions (and, indeed, most prosecutions) were resolved with guilty pleas, not trials, so there weren't exciting Slashdot stories to read. >Operation Sundevil took place a relatively long >time ago. We all hear dire warnings relative to >software piracy and rumors of the Secret Service >showing up and shutting a company down for bootleg >M$ Office products and such things. But has anything >like this actually happened? Yes. See for examples if you're talking about professional pirates - if what you mean is "Will I get arrested if I install the same copy of Microsoft Office on 3 or 4 computers?" the answer is "No", but if those 3 or 4 computers are at a workplace, and employees learn of the copying and are later laid off or fired or otherwise become disgruntled, there's a modest chance that they'll exact some revenge by reporting the company to the SPA/BSA, who send grouchy letters and threaten audits, and actually do them once in awhile, which tend to be embarassing and disruptive and expensive. -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 1 02:06:30 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:06:30 +0000 Subject: Transparency Spray? [was Transperancy Spray? ] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030162551.02e4f8c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BDEDAC2.9950.113E5947@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031184410.02cde940@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <3BE11EA5.E633D0BB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Reese asked: > How dry will the air be at the burning cherry on a cigarette? Quite wet, because the combustion adds water vapour to the air. It won't be much good at physically wetting things, because the air is warm, but the water vapour is there and being hot will be chemically quite active. Hold a piece of cool glassware near a bunsen burner or candle flame and you will see lots of condensation. No, not *that* near... Ken Brown From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 1 07:31:35 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:31:35 -0500 Subject: Fw: New Scientist: Microwave Crowd Dispersal Tested (ADT) Message-ID: > cpaul[SMTP:inc at fastmedia.net] > > > > On Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 07:12 PM, cpaul wrote: > > > > > aluminum foil? > > > > http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/tech/heatison.jsp > > > > > > Microwave beam weapon to disperse crowds > > > > i've been following the development of this skin heating > device for a while, and am keen to learn if there may be > an effective means to counter its use. > > the new scientist article suggests that the cornea is not > as resilient as skin when it comes to being bombarded with > microwaves, hence i seek opinions on how one might protect > oneself. > > if asking such is inane then i guess i should ask to have > my final request. > Leather or wet clothes may shield most of the body. A wild guess to protect the eyes would be something that puts a transparent conductive material over them - mirror sunglasses, the mylar glasses used for eclipse observations (though you could not see anything else through them :-(), or the conductive, mostly transparent plastic material which is used to package static sensitive electronic components. Another possibility is to make goggles out of metal flyscreen - since the wavelength is 3mm, it's doubtful that they can penetrate. Chain mail would also work for the body. Peter From bandcampbiacjes at msn.com Thu Nov 1 23:14:16 2001 From: bandcampbiacjes at msn.com (bandcampbiacjes at msn.com) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 11:14:16 -2000 Subject: A:\adult subjects2.txt OY Message-ID: <00005b5c0bdd$00007db1$00001417@A:\hotmaillocalhost.txt> http://www.teen-pie.com/index.html?hendrix Hey Baby Come bang me and my teen Bandcamp friends, Click on this link so I can feel you inside me http://www.teen-pie.com/index.html?hendrix WARNING: This site contains sexually explicit materials. You must be 18 or older to proceed. To be taken off this list res pond with "get me off" From jei at cc.hut.fi Thu Nov 1 01:47:09 2001 From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:47:09 +0200 (EET) Subject: RIAA Wants Background Checks on CD-RW Buyers Message-ID: http://www.bbspot.com/news/2001/10/riaa.html Technology News Monday October 29 10:52 PM EST RIAA Wants Background Checks on CD-RW Buyers Washington DC - The RIAA is lobbying for vendors of CD-RW drives to conduct background checks and require a 3 day waiting period before the drive can be sold. The extensive background check would include cross referencing credit card numbers with local merchants sales logs looking for purchases of dual-cassette decks between the years of 1980 and 1987. It would also include checking for installation of file sharing software, knowledge of the Internet, and the ability to hum. Any of which would bar the purchaser from receiving his drive. Saaaatan? "A CD-RW can be a dangerous weapon when it falls into the wrong hands," said RIAA President Hilary Rosen, "You wouldn't sell a gun to a convicted felon and you shouldn't sell a CD-RW drive to a Gnutella user. The 3 day waiting period gives us time to verify that no copyrighted material is on the purchasers hard drive and to make sure they have a membership in the Columbia House CD club." Current owners of CD-RW drives would be required to obtain a license for use of the drive or face stiff fines. Licenses could be obtained by enrollment at a local RIAA Education Camp where the horrors of copyright violation would be instilled with the use of electro-shock therapy. "I was alarmed when I heard that children had the ability to burn CDs right on their computers," said Senator Strom Thurmond, "We've tried to educate parents on the dangers of children playing with fire, and now these death merchants sell them that ability in a shiny metal box." Other Senators voiced their concerns about the possible violations of privacy in the proposed legislation, but since it was called the Copyright Patriotism Act they are unable to oppose it. "The RIAA has gone too far this time. There are uses for CD-RW drives that don't violate RIAA copyrights like burning multiple copies of Microsoft Office for friends and neighbors," said Matthew Sodor an opponent of the legislation. Other News: From news at mailings.advisorteam.com Thu Nov 1 11:59:32 2001 From: news at mailings.advisorteam.com (David Keirsey & AdvisorTeam) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 11:59:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: A New Look for PersonalityZone(tm) - October 2001 Message-ID: 
PersonalityZone N E W S L E T T E R by AdvisorTeam - October, 2001

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IN THIS ISSUE:

  OUR NEW LOOK: Come See The New Look Of Your Personality

  TEMPERAMENT IN ACTION: A New Way To Discover Yourself

  @ ADVISORTEAM: Career Services - Counseling and Assessment

  CAREER 911: Does Your Job Match Your Temperament?

  CARTOON: Personalities At Work

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TEMPERAMENT IN ACTION: Discover Your Intelligences 
AdvisorTeam Offers A New Way To Discover Yourself 

The American education system embraces I.Q. testing as a quick way
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Career Services - Counseling And Assessment 

Many people want to know what kind of job they are suited for,
based on the fact they are of a certain type. 

Is there a program using the precepts of Temperament Theory to
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CARTOON  
Jeni Rae Duschak Presents "Personalities At Work"

Visit the new PersonalityZone and view four illustrations of
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-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 14276 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hakkin at sarin.com Thu Nov 1 12:24:10 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:24:10 -0800 Subject: Bahamas biz registry suffers for lack of anonymity Message-ID: <3BE1AF6A.738F3A43@sarin.com> Anonymity Lifted, Fewer Companies Registering in the Bahamas By Samantha JosephAssociated Press Writer Published: Nov 1, 2001 NASSAU, Bahamas (AP) - The number of international companies registering in the Bahamas dropped steeply following tightened regulations that ended anonymous ownership, the attorney general says. Only 4,148 international business companies registered to do business between January and September of this year, Attorney General Carl Bethel said Wednesday. Some 14,500 registered in the same period last year. Earlier this year, the Bahamas was removed from the Paris-based Financial Action Task Force's blacklist of countries deemed uncooperative in fighting money laundering. To get off the blacklist and avoid any sanctions, the Bahamas passed nine laws to strengthen regulations in the offshore sector. One of the new measures eliminated anonymous ownership of international business companies, so-called shell companies, by requiring the names of two directors and the office address on the registration. Any loss in business, however, was worth it to improve the reputation of the Bahamas as an international financial center, Bethel said. "There has been some falloff in this area," he said. "But we think, on balance, the financial services sector is better off." Still, there are some 45,000 international business companies that renewed their licenses this year, Bethel said. If the registrations had been at the same level as last year, the Bahamas would have brought in another $1.5 million in incorporation fees. Bethel said the drop would not have a dramatic effect on the country's overall revenues, because offshore banking and investment services are a more economically vital sector. http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAY95MWITC.html From hakkin at sarin.com Thu Nov 1 12:26:42 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:26:42 -0800 Subject: Sony uses DMCA to harass Aibo user group http://www.aibohack.com Message-ID: <3BE1B002.7E4994F@sarin.com> http://latimes.com/business/la-000086726nov01.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dbusiness%2Dmanual Sony Dogs Aibo Enthusiast's Site Courts: The company uses a controversial law to stop owners from altering the robotic pet. Some consumers balk. By DAVE WILSON and ALEX PHAM, TIMES STAFF WRITERS Sony Corp. is using a controversial U.S. law aimed at protecting intellectual property to pull the plug on a Web site that helps owners of Aibo, Sony's popular and pricey robotic pet, teach their electronic dogs new tricks. Aibo owners are outraged, and hundreds have vowed to stop buying Sony products altogether until the company backs off. Sony has sold more than 100,000 Aibos worldwide since 1999, at prices ranging from $800 to $3,000. The dogs have spawned a community of enthusiasts who fuss over the mechanical marvels as if they were real canines. Last week, Sony executives sent a letter to the operator of a Web site, http://www.aibohack.com, alleging that much of the site's contents-programs and software tools that can modify the Aibo's behavior--was created and distributed in ways that violate the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. The 1998 law was designed to combat the duplication of digitized materials, which can be easily distributed instantaneously worldwide on the Internet. Violators can face monetary damages and even prison time, depending on the nature of the violation. In a prepared statement, Sony officials said they asked only for removal of material it considered illegal and encouraged the distribution of Aibo-related materials that they did not believe infringed the company's rights. Sony sells a number of software kits, usually for about $150, that allow Aibo users to modify the dog's behavior. The software tools removed from the Web site are easier to use and more powerful, according to users--and are available for free. "We do not support the development of software that is created by manipulating existing Sony Aibo-ware code, copying it and/or distributing it via the Internet," the company said. "This is a clear case of copyright infringement, something that most Aibo owners can appreciate and respectfully understand." Critics of the DMCA say the law upsets the delicate balance between the rights of copyright holders to protect their intellectual property and the rights of everyone else to use such items to develop their own works. That has sparked increasing concern in Congress as scientists, librarians, researchers and consumer groups have voiced opposition to the law. "On the surface, Sony appears to be using portions of the DMCA in an attempt to keep people from putting the company's product to new and interesting uses," said Cindy Cohn, legal director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil rights group. "This is exactly the sort of thing we've been concerned about." Cohn said that if Congress does not act, the courts will eventually have to repair the situation. "Sooner or later, this is going to come to a head," she said. "This is a critical societal problem. If we can no longer stand on the shoulders of giants, take a cool thing somebody has made and make it a little bit cooler, progress is stunted, perhaps irreparably." Bob Harting, a Santa Monica potter, has programmed his three Aibos--Sparky, Agent Aibo and Aibojangles--to perform a syncopated dance routine to Madonna's "Vogue." "It's just impossible to do this sort of thing with the Sony tools," he said, as the dogs danced to the music in his living room. "I have bought every accessory made for the Aibo, and nearly every bit of equipment in my apartment--television, VCRs, computers--is from Sony," Harting said. "But I'm not comfortable giving them more money until this is resolved." The man behind Aibohack.com, who goes by the screen name Aibopet and asked to not be identified, removed the contested material from the site, leaving it largely empty except for links to other sites that have organized protests against Sony. He said he incorporates Sony's code into his programs but that no one is harmed. His programs give Aibo owners the ability to manipulate their robot dogs, but only if the user has a legitimate copy of Sony's software. He said that Sony benefits from his work because it generates consumer enthusiasm for Aibo. Although he's upset about being forced to take his tools off the Internet, he said he has no plans to litigate the matter. Before Aibohack.com went down, it saw 400 to 600 visitors a day, many of whom downloaded Aibopet's tools. One of the programs, AiboScope, wirelessly transmits images from the robot's camera to a computer. Another, Disco Aibo, programs Aibo to dance when it hears a specific song. The most recent program is Brainbo, which combines voice-recognition software with a library of answers to various questions. Users can ask the robot a question, and it will pull from the database to lip sync an answer. Aibopet said he has posted more than 1,500 comments, tips and answers to Aibosite.com in the last two years. "I guess you could call it a hobby, but it has gotten a little out of control at times. I just enjoy programming," Aibopet said. "Looking at the last two years, I probably spent more time doing unpaid technical support for Sony than I have playing with my dog. But it's been rewarding. I've met people throughout the world." Experts say Sony risks angering Aibo enthusiasts to the point that they might hurt sales of Aibo and related merchandise but could boost sales of its own software tools. It's a big risk said David A. Aaker, vice chairman of Prophet, a brand strategy consulting firm. Other companies that have faced similar situations have made the opposite choice. Lego Co., a Danish company that makes the classic plastic interlocking children's toy, introduced a computer-controlled set in 1998. MindStorms, as the kit is called, offers users the ability to add motors and an onboard computer to control the creation's behavior. Almost as soon as the toy was introduced, enthusiasts rewrote the software to allow for more complex operation. After much consideration, Lego decided to endorse such hacking, provided that nobody turns their software into a commercial product and that Lego trademarks aren't used. "The decision wasn't easy to make," said Lego spokesman Michael McNally. "We were obviously concerned that if this got out of hand, we could lose control of what we hold as our own. But we decided that if we made this easier for them, they'd be less inclined to change it and dilute it. In a way, we're protecting our own interests." McNally said the decision has helped build the Lego community, but he concedes that Lego's decision was largely made to boost sales. "We're like any other company," he said. "This was about taking the brand forward, creating a larger fan base; and what company wouldn't want to do that? It contributes to the bottom line." From juancarlos at memorykings.net Thu Nov 1 13:04:45 2001 From: juancarlos at memorykings.net (juancarlos at memorykings.net) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:04:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: King Interactive Distributors Message-ID: <200111012104.QAA03706@smtp2.fdn.com> King Interactive distributors Pricelist Update 10-18-01 Ifeel Logitech mouse new retail box $16 First wheel mouse Logitech $7 Roadgear car amp 250 watt. $35 Ant-Boosters & waveguards combos $0.94 Remote control extenders Recotons $12 Flash cards 16 mb $13.50 11 32 mb $15.50 18 64 mb $32 Usb flash card reader & writer $20 Netgear 20 port switch $200 software pc anywhere $3.95 Spy softwhere $3.95 Epson stylus printers 777 $55 Memory 128 mb pc 133 $12 256 mb pc 133 $21 Hewlett Packard scanjet 5100c $30 All prices are negotiable juancarlos at memorykings.net King Interactive Distributors. 5450 S. State rd 7 #11 Ft. Lauderdale, Fl 33314 Toll Free 1-866-218-1263 Fax 954-584-2905 From inc at fastmedia.net Thu Nov 1 19:12:28 2001 From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:12:28 -1000 Subject: Fw: New Scientist: Microwave Crowd Dispersal Tested (ADT) Message-ID: <20011101171228.178850d1.inc@fastmedia.net> aluminum foil? * * * Begin forwarded message: From guest at guest.com Thu Nov 1 02:21:14 2001 From: guest at guest.com (=?GB2312?B?zfjVvr2oyei/1bzk0/LD+w==?=) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:21:14 +0800 Subject: =?GB2312?B?zfjVvr2oyei/1bzk0/LD+w==?= Message-ID: ======================================================================= = 此信若对您不起作用，真对不！我们一定打扰您了，请您把他DEL = ======================================================================= 中国服务全球专业的域名注册提供商，现推出主机、域名注册优惠服务： “特惠1+1企业上网套餐”是中国服务器网络有限公司为您推出的超值服务， “先服务，后收费！”内容包括： 　　 30M asp cgi,php +ACCESS 数据库,送国际顶级域名一个 250元/年 (送五个邮箱) 100M asp cgi,php +ACCESS 数据库,送国际顶级域名一个，只需 350元/年(送六个邮箱) 200N asp cgi,php +ACCESS 数据库,送国际顶级域名一个,只需 600元/年 特惠1+1上网套餐是企业上网，企业商务化的理想选择，现正火爆选购中 快速度申请(请点击）： http://www.linemail.net/host/index.asp ===================================================================== 百度竞价、新浪排名、搜狐排名、网易排名等服务，使您的网站知名度大大提 高。系列超值赠送服务，不可不看！ 马上申请: http://www.linemail.net/special/index.asp ====================================================================== 欢迎访问我司网站进一步了解： http://www.linemail.net 联系电话:0592-2180338 QQ:93767793 From inc at fastmedia.net Thu Nov 1 21:44:41 2001 From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:44:41 -1000 Subject: Fw: New Scientist: Microwave Crowd Dispersal Tested (ADT) In-Reply-To: <804761CB-CE98-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> References: <20011101171228.178850d1.inc@fastmedia.net> <804761CB-CE98-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011101194441.6565ab3a.inc@fastmedia.net> > On Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 07:12 PM, cpaul wrote: > > > aluminum foil? > > http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/tech/heatison.jsp > > > > Microwave beam weapon to disperse crowds On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:17:25 -0800 Tim May wrote: > More inane pseudo-questions. > > The list has degenerated to a new low. > > Into the cornfield you go. i've been following the development of this skin heating device for a while, and am keen to learn if there may be an effective means to counter its use. the new scientist article suggests that the cornea is not as resilient as skin when it comes to being bombarded with microwaves, hence i seek opinions on how one might protect oneself. if asking such is inane then i guess i should ask to have my final request. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 1 17:49:04 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:49:04 -0600 Subject: The Register - 'DeCSS' DVD descrambler ruled legal Message-ID: <3BE1FB90.E4A59703@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/22613.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 1 17:59:27 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:59:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Register - 'DeCSS' DVD descrambler ruled legal In-Reply-To: <3BE1FB90.E4A59703@ssz.com> Message-ID: That judge only caught half of it, if the 1's and 0's don't pass any ideas then how does the hardware know what to do? After all, compiling to binary only converts one language to another. There is NOTHING in the 1st that allows one language to receive protection over another. It says 'speech', as in 'all speech'. The fact is that anybody who knows the hex codes of the CPU can read the compiled code and determine exactly what the 'ideas' in the source code were. On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/22613.html -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From vhs8633 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 1 12:51:48 2001 From: vhs8633 at hotmail.com (Allen Tharp) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 20:51:48 +0000 Subject: Password Message-ID: I need a password for an AOL account, can you help? I'm desperate. My wife is having an affair with this guy. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From whatsnew at launch-media.net Thu Nov 1 21:04:50 2001 From: whatsnew at launch-media.net (Launch) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 21:04:50 PST Subject: See Britney's hot new video, Cranberries new album, Jay-Z vid + more! Message-ID: <200111020441.UAA00517@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5023 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lance.james at bakbone.com Thu Nov 1 21:46:14 2001 From: lance.james at bakbone.com (Lance James) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:46:14 -0800 Subject: Password Message-ID: <3A161D00A21FD411AFDD00508B938E31CD6783@hqmail.bakbone.com> You'd think we were hackers. Go to alt.hackers or something. Bye. Lance -----Original Message----- From: Allen Tharp To: cypherpunks at toad.com Sent: 11/1/01 12:51 PM Subject: Password I need a password for an AOL account, can you help? I'm desperate. My wife is having an affair with this guy. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 1 20:32:34 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:32:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Revised CFP (extended deadline): Financial Cryptography 2002 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:27:44 -0500 From: Matt Blaze To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Revised CFP (extended deadline): Financial Cryptography 2002 Revised Call for Papers Financial Cryptography '02 NOTE EXTENDED DEADLINE March 11-14, 2002 Sonesta Beach Resort Southhampton, Bermuda Sponsored by the International Financial Cryptography Association Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data security and digital commerce for submission to the Sixth Annual Conference on Financial Cryptography (FC '02). FC '02 brings together researchers in the financial, legal, cryptologic, and data security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas. Relevant topics include: Anonymity Infrastructure Design Audit Legal and Regulatory Authentication and Issues Identification Loyalty Mechanisms Certification and Peer-to-Peer Systems Authorization Payments and Commercial Transactions Micropayments and Contracts Privacy Digital Cash Risks Management Digital Rights Secure Banking Management Smart Cards Electronic Purses Trust Management Implementation Issues Watermarking Information Economics Instructions for Authors: Complete papers (or complete extended abstracts) must be at most fifteen (15) single-spaced standard pages in length and must be received before 23h59 UTC on November 11, 2001. All papers must be submitted electronically. (In exceptional circumstances, paper submissions can be accepted, but special arrangements must be made with the program chair prior to October 31, 2001.) Papers must be in either standard PostScript or PDF format, and should be submitted via electronic mail to fc02submit at crypto.com prior to the deadline. Note that submissions in formats other than PostScript or PDF, including word processor source formats such as MS Word or LaTeX, will be rejected. Submitted papers should include on the first page the title, all authors and their affiliations, a brief abstract, and a list of topical keywords. Papers must be original; submission of previously published material or papers under consideration in other conferences or journals is not permitted. A proceedings will be published as part of the LNCS series. Authors of accepted papers will have an opportunity to revise their papers for final publication after the conference. Proposals for panels are also solicited, and should include a brief description of the panel as well as prospective participants. Panel proposals should be submitted by electronic mail to the same address, in plain ASCII format. Important Dates: Submissions due: November 11, 2001 Notifications to authors: December 23, 2001 Camera-ready papers due: February 4, 2002 General Chair: Nicko van Someren (nCipher) Program Committee: Matt Blaze, Program Chair (AT&T Labs) Dan Boneh (Stanford University) Stefan Brands (Zero Knowledge) Dan Geer (@stake) Ian Goldberg (Zero Knowledge) Angelos Keromytis (Columbia University) Paul Kocher (Cryptography Research) Ron Rivest (MIT) Tomas Sander (Intertrust) Rebecca Wright (AT&T Labs) --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From terra at mailbox.lycos.com Thu Nov 1 14:59:25 2001 From: terra at mailbox.lycos.com (Terra Lycos Network) Date: 1 Nov 2001 22:59:25 -0000 Subject: Changes across Terra Lycos Message-ID: <20011101225925.25684.qmail@newman10.dc3.lycos.com> Dear rivermaste, We're excited to announce some new changes across Terra Lycos. For the past few months we've asked for your feedback, listened to your input and have made some enhancements to the products and services that you use today. The users who have previewed the sites have overwhelmingly preferred the new designs, and we hope you do too. Rest assured, you will still have all the same great features and services that you've come to know, but we've added a new look and updated the sites -- making it easier and faster to move around the network. Here's a brief outline of what to expect: *New Network Login* -- to make it easier for you to sign in and out of all the Lycos products and services you use, we have moved the "Log In/Log Out" button to the top of each page. You'll see this Login button across all sites that require member registration. *More Content* -- you will see a new page layout across our sites, the goal was to add more information, and present it in an engaging, compelling format loaded with photographs. *New Navigation* -- on many of the sites, we have created a left-hand navigational scheme to make it easier for you to surf across Terra Lycos. *What's on the Network* -- we've added three new photo-rich sites that group featured content chosen specifically for like-minded users and to serve as a great place to start a daily Web adventure. Check out: http://www.angelfire.com -- a hip site that combines entertainment content covering music, film, tv, celebrities and more with easy homepage building -- it's the best place on the Web for users to express themselves. http://familyzone.lycos.com -- an online magazine for parents and kids with recipes, health and pregnancy information, useful tips and a wealth of fun activities. http://holidays.lycos.com -- your holiday survival site is here to help you plan for a well-organized and hassle-free holiday season. If you haven't sampled our wide range of other sites and services, check out: Lycos (http://www.lycos.com) Matchmaker (http://www.matchmaker.com) Gamesville (http://www.gamesville.com) Quote (http://www.quote.com) Raging Bull (http://www.ragingbull.com) Wired News (http://www.wired.com) Tripod (http://www.tripod.com) HtmlGear (http://www.htmlgear.com) These enhancements are part of our commitment to bring you the best content and services available on the Web. Welcome to the new Terra Lycos. We hope you enjoy your stay! -The Terra Lycos Team <><><><><><><><><><> We do not monitor responses sent to this email address. If you need to contact Terra Lycos for customer or technical support, please visit http://help.lycos.com As a Terra Lycos member, you have received this e-mail to inform you of new services. Our policy has always been to send e-mail messages only to announce such information, and we'll continue to honor this policy. Thank you for being a Terra Lycos member. To change your email preferences and other user account information, click here: http://ldbauth.lycos.com/cgi-bin/fmayaRegister?m_RC=4 <><><><><><><><><><> From mailers-wanted at Prosper.zzn.com Fri Nov 2 02:36:06 2001 From: mailers-wanted at Prosper.zzn.com (mailers-wanted at Prosper.zzn.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 02:36:06 -0800 Subject: !!!EARN BIG $$$ POSTING GIO FLIERS!!! Message-ID: <6C4DFBE763F9D3F47AF5BD91F3BC5786@mailers-wanted.Prosper.zzn.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20212 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mattd at useoz.com Thu Nov 1 10:18:32 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 05:18:32 +1100 Subject: FBI MAS Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011102050653.009e57e0@pop.useoz.com> "There is a room full of frustrated males that don't get enough sex from their ugly wives and expensive mistresses " And I bet a few miss the old boss in drag...but seriously,the above sentence reminds me of my 2600 list here, where Im a well known 'white hat'hacker.I hear some of my friends are scarfing up the names of all known FBIers (like special agent lynne hunt in the register today) This is to protect them from the baddies like the lasker jihad.Keep those names coming.The C/list goes on forever. From piolenc at mozcom.com Thu Nov 1 16:24:54 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:24:54 +0800 Subject: Transperancy Spray? References: <20011029222355.A10269@spheno.jokeslayer.com> Message-ID: <3BE1E7D6.22F04BBC@mozcom.com> You can find formulas for this spray in many formularies - it's been used at least as far back as WWI for making an envelope transparent for a few minutes. Actually, translucent would be a better term, as you can only read text that is right up against the inside of the envelope. What is more, the stuff is less useful than back in the fountain-pen days because it tends to smear ball-point and other greasy inks. Marc de Piolenc Max Inux wrote: THe > whole cant read someone elses mail thing is out the window it looks like, they can spray this go on the letter and read > through the envelope.. It seems implausable but its CNN, they dont lie right? well ANYWAYS, I now have a nice stash of black > construction paper... -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin From hakkin at sarin.com Fri Nov 2 08:32:28 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:32:28 -0800 Subject: All your youth are belong to US Message-ID: <3BE2CA9C.F18747FC@sarin.com> THE WORLD & NATION Bill Could Boost Recruiting at Schools Privacy: Federal measure would force high schools to give names, addresses and phone numbers to the military. By RICHARD LEE COLVIN, TIMES EDUCATION WRITER U.S. high schools would be required to aid military recruiters by turning over the names, addresses and telephone numbers of their students under a federal bill that has drawn fire from educators and privacy advocates. Nearly half of the schools in California and about a third nationwide restrict recruiters' access to that information or to their campuses, according to the Department of Defense. If the provision is approved by Congress and signed by President Bush, school districts that fail to comply could face substantial losses of federal aid. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000087211nov02.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation%2Dmanual From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 2 09:42:07 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:42:07 -0800 Subject: Using Thermite to Drop Suspension Bridges...and U.S. plans to do so Message-ID: Cypherpunks, Here's an item I sent to another forum about using thermite to cut the cables on suspension bridges. A couple of folks had claimed that using explosives on the piers and other support structures would be extraordinarily difficult to arrange (and detectable by bridge security personnel). I agreed, but noted in my piece that thermite quickly placed on the main cables could cut or weaken the cables significantly. (Merely damaging the cables by more than about 30% might require, for liability and public perception reasons, the shut down of the Golden Gate Bridge for as many months or years as it might take to replace the main cable--the cable is a continuous one, and is not "segment-replaceable." It is possible that some clamp bypass might be possible, but I would be skeptical that clamps could handle the tension.) An interesting part of the URL chunk included below is that the DOD endorses use of "peacetime" operations to collapse bridges...surely an act of "terrorism" comparable to bringing down the World Trade Center. (Oh, I forgot, if the CIA does it to a country we are not at war with, it's "nation-building," not terrorism.) I found this URL, and several equally-interesting ones, as part of my research on using thermite to collapse suspension bridges. Looks like the U.S. military has been planning similar ops for a while...could be why the alerts are being taken seriously by the gubmint. --begin excerpt-- From: Tim May Date: Fri Nov 02, 2001 12:26:29 AM US/Pacific To: tcmay at got.net Subject: Re: Dropping the Bridges is Easy [[ This message was also posted as: <021120010026271382%tcmay at got.net> ]] More comments on using thermite to drop the bridges: In article <011120012309364728%tcmay at got.net>, Tim May wrote: A conventional medium- or low-velocity explosion would not hurt the piers, obviously. Too massive, and MV and LV explosions, by definition, have little effect on such structures. Even a high-velocity explosion would have a hard time wrecking the piers. However, suspension bridges are obviously subject to having the suspension cables cut. Enough RDX would do the job even on the massive GG Bridge. However, there are lower-tech ways to do it even more easily: A thermite blanket wrapped around one of the main suspension cables of the Golden Gate would probably drop the span. Hitting both cables would be best, and matches the M.O. of the 911 attacks. A truck pulls up, stops, a few men wrap the cable with 60 pounds of thermite. Once ignited, should cut through the thousands of strands like butter. (A thermal lance might also do the job, but would require a man to aim the lance for long enough. This man could be taken out and the plan thwarted. Wrapping the cable is preferable...once that thermite process starts, essentially nothing stops it.) I found some sources showing that the intelligence services around the world are already planning to use such methods ("in peacetime," which many would call "terrorism," unless it's done by the U.S. of A.). Some quotes from http://www.ndu.edu/inss/books/milgeo/milgeoch11.html The Institute for National Strategic Studies, part of the National Defense University at Fort McNair and in Norfolk, VA. Note the mention of thermite, and the cutting of suspension cables. Note also that the manual is talking about doing these things as an act of terrorism (covert, against civil facilities). "Covert operations that conceal the identity of, or permit plausible denial by, perpetrators moreover may be politically prudent, especially in "peacetime." ....Brittle cast iron breaks easily, but acetylene torches or thermite may be needed to slice nickel-molybdenum steel, which strongly resists conventional explosives. Proper placement is at least as important as destructive power..... Professionals whose mission is to stop road and river traffic temporarily cut supports at one end of truss bridges so affected spans fall in the water; they cut trusses at midspan to make bridges buckle if long-lasting destruction is the intent. Massive towers and thick cables on major suspension bridges resist powerful explosive charges, but slender suspenders that hang therefrom do not--roadway sections collapse if they are cut." --end excerpt-- --Tim May ""Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." --Patrick Henry From ericm at lne.com Fri Nov 2 09:46:50 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:46:50 -0800 Subject: Is list up? In-Reply-To: <3BE2C607.599BF394@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>; from k.brown@ccs.bbk.ac.uk on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:12:55PM +0000 References: <604E0048-CE37-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> <3BE2C607.599BF394@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20011102094650.A24293@slack.lne.com> On Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:12:55PM +0000, Ken Brown wrote: > Bad from to send tests to lists but no traffic here from either lne or > one of Choate's. > > ? problems in lists ? Network feed problem for lne. My network provider has some flaky gear, but they don't resrict what packets I send and when I call up their tech support I get someone who's got a clue. BTW now that winter is coming on, lne will get a little flakier-- we're in a rural area and sometimes have power outages when trees fall on the power lines. I've got a generator but it takes some time to set up and I don't like to run it at night. For short outages I don't bother to set it up, and when there is a long outage I'll run the generator during the day only. So what I'm saying here is don't worry if there's nothing from the list for a few hours. BTW, if you want to do a test, try sending an info request to majordomo@ the site you're testing. That way you don't have to post to the whole list. Also, I leave the ICMP port to mail.lne.com open so you can try pinging it to see if we're connected. Eric From fletcher at talstar.com Fri Nov 2 06:48:54 2001 From: fletcher at talstar.com (curtis) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:48:54 -0500 Subject: Password References: Message-ID: <3BE2B256.9902C707@talstar.com> if she is having an affair leave her or kick her out, if you can't trust her you don't need her. Allen Tharp wrote: > I need a password for an AOL account, can you help? I'm desperate. My wife > is having an affair with this guy. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From pmoreton at cesinc.com Fri Nov 2 07:57:18 2001 From: pmoreton at cesinc.com (Paul Moreton (VP)) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:57:18 -0600 Subject: New Quickoffice 5.6 for Palm handhelds Message-ID: Hello, Recently, you sampled Quickoffice for your Palm handheld. We've just released a new version that includes significant updates to Quickword and Quicksheet. This new version is something you'll want to have on your handheld for documents and spreadsheets. Today, I am making you a special limited-time offer. You can purchase Quickoffice 5.6.2, including Quicksheet, Quickchart, and Quickword for only $19.95 which is 50% off the regular price. The only way to get this special price is by clicking this link: https://sprite.cesinc.com/secure/buyonline2_qopromo4.asp . You can't get this price by going to our regular website, it's an Internet only promotion that I am offering to a special customer. In the new version of Quickword, we've added formatting, bulleted lists, justification, fonts, color, highlighting, HTML editing, and better integration with MS Word 97 or newer (2000 or XP recommended). In Quicksheet, we've added 25 more functions, cell color formatting, Sony CLIE hi-res support and a host of other features that continue to make Quicksheet the best spreadsheet for Palm handhelds. Did you know that Quicksheet has won "Best spreadsheet for Palm" for 4 years in a row? Quickoffice is hands down the best, most feature rich, and useful program for your Palm. Once again, that special price is $19.95 and you can only get it here: https://sprite.cesinc.com/secure/buyonline2_qopromo4.asp If you have any questions, please feel free to email me. I'd love to answer your questions and look forward to having you as a customer. Sincerely, Paul Moreton Vice-President of Marketing and Sales Cutting Edge Software, Inc. 214.956.9806 x1 email: pmoreton at cesinc.com From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Nov 2 11:20:16 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:20:16 -0800 Subject: Using Thermite to Drop Suspension Bridges...and U.S. plans to Message-ID: <200111021920.fA2JKGU62869@mailserver1.hushmail.com> There are various formulations for thermite. The one I like best uses barium peroxide, sulphur and very finely divided aluminum (paint pigment works great). Thermite is nice cause its not explosive or shock sensitive and can be ignited by a simple green fireworks fuse. From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Nov 2 11:27:17 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:27:17 -0800 Subject: King George II: Only in America Message-ID: <200111021927.fA2JRHE64544@mailserver1.hushmail.com> The video was shot at the August 29, 1992 wedding of Jamie Weiss, the daughter of Dubya's close friends Mike and Nancy Weiss. Mike, a Lubbock, Texas lawyer and CPA, was Bush's campaign chairman during his first political race (an unsuccessful 1978 congressional bid) and was one of the Texas governor's earliest political appointments. When cameraman T. Patrick Murray filmed Bush during the wedding reception at a Lubbock country club, the future governor took some rambling--and we presume good-natured--swipes at the newlyweds, the bride's parents, and her brother Kelly (Bush was being quizzed by a member of the bridal party). We love the part where teetotaler George actually disses two of the Weisses for supposedly not drinking or smoking. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/bush/bush.shtml From burntcircuit at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 08:37:49 2001 From: burntcircuit at yahoo.com (BurntCircuit) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:37:49 -0500 Subject: Password In-Reply-To: <3A161D00A21FD411AFDD00508B938E31CD6783@hqmail.bakbone.com> Message-ID: LOL but the wannabes there arnt hackers either -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at toad.com]On Behalf Of Lance James Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 00:46 To: 'Allen Tharp '; 'cypherpunks at toad.com ' Subject: RE: Password You'd think we were hackers. Go to alt.hackers or something. Bye. Lance -----Original Message----- From: Allen Tharp To: cypherpunks at toad.com Sent: 11/1/01 12:51 PM Subject: Password I need a password for an AOL account, can you help? I'm desperate. 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If you have received this email in error, use your handle and password to log in at http://AdultFriendFinder.com. Go to your "Update" area and click on the appropriate text links to designate your mailing preferences. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11029 bytes Desc: not available URL: From newsletters at the-financial-news.org Fri Nov 2 05:37:56 2001 From: newsletters at the-financial-news.org (The Financial News) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:37:56 +0100 Subject: Production Mini-plants in mobile containers Message-ID: The Financial News, November 2001 Production Mini-plants in mobile containers "...Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and the necessary support for the production in series of Mini-plants in mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is to say, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production." More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for Construction Framework, Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Façades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares, Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups, Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging, Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material, Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc. For more information: Mini-plants in mobile containers By Steven P. Leibacher, The Financial News, Editor ------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you received this in error or would like to be removed from our list, please return us indicating: remove or un-subscribe in 'subject' field, Thanks. Editor © 2001 The Financial News. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2348 bytes Desc: not available URL: From agents at latticesemi.com Fri Nov 2 07:32:04 2001 From: agents at latticesemi.com (agents at latticesemi.com) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:32:04 +0000 Subject: Stay Current with Lattice Alerts! Message-ID: <200111040118.fA41Ipq27168@hood.latticesemi.com> Stay Current With Lattice Web Alerts! ------------------------------------- Dear Random Hacker, Lattice Semiconductor thanks you for your interest in our products and services. We are pleased to provide you, our valued customer, a means to keep current on Lattice's industry-leading programmable logic, digital cross-switch, and programmable analog products. Lattice "Web Agents" is a new Lattice web site capability that allows you to: * receive email alerts on the latest Lattice products and business developments * fully customize your information flow * control the topics and frequency of your personalized alerts It's easy. It's convenient. It's completely controlled by YOU. Simply go to to create your own Lattice Web Agents. Questions? Visit Web Agent FAQs: Thanks again for your interest in Lattice Semiconductor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lattice Semiconductor occassionally sends announcements for new and innovative products and services as they become available. If you do not wish to receive these email announcements in the future, go to the following link to stop receiving them: ================================================================================ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2127 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 2 13:41:38 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:41:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: Is list up? In-Reply-To: <3BE2C607.599BF394@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Ken Brown wrote: > Bad from to send tests to lists but no traffic here from either lne or > one of Choate's. > > ? problems in lists ? ???? Wanna say that in plain English... It's been a slow couple of days. -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Nov 2 08:12:55 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:12:55 +0000 Subject: Is list up? References: <604E0048-CE37-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BE2C607.599BF394@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Bad from to send tests to lists but no traffic here from either lne or one of Choate's. ? problems in lists ? Ken From verba at rol.it Fri Nov 2 07:28:53 2001 From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:28:53 +0100 Subject: Verba Volant del 02-11-01 Message-ID: <1004718534@web2bk.logos.it> Verba Volant del 02-11-01, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com _________________ Quotation of the day: Author - Karl Marx http://www.logos.it/bio/karl_marx.html English - the circumstances make the man no less than the man makes the circumstances Italian - le circostanze fanno l'uomo non meno di quanto l'uomo faccia le circostanze Spanish - las circunstancias forman al hombre no menos que el hombre a las circunstancias French - les circonstances ne font pas moins l'homme que l'homme fait les circonstances Portuguese - as circunst�ncias criam o homem n�o menos do que o homem cria as circunst�ncias Brazilian Portuguese - as circunst�ncias criam o homem n�o menos do que o homem cria as circunst�ncias German - die Verh�ltnisse formen den Menschen nicht weniger, als der Mensch die Verh�ltnisse schafft Hungarian - a k�r�lm�nyek legal�bb annyira alak�tj�k az embert, mint az ember a k�r�lm�nyeket Finnish - olosuhteet tekev�t ihmisen yht� paljon kuin ihminen olosuhteet Croatian - uvjeti cine covjeka ne manje koliko covjek stvara uvjete Czech - okolnosti utv�rej� cloveka o nic m�ne, ne� clovek utv�r� okolnosti Dutch - de omstandigheden maken de man niet minder dan wat de man met de omstandigheden doet Emiliano-Romagnolo - la situazioun l'� sustenza d'l om din t'las misura misma ad quel l'om al fa la situazioun Furlan - lis circostanzis 'a fasin l'omp no mancul di tant che l'omp al f�s lis circostanzis Galician - as circunstancias fan o home non menos do que o home fai as circunstancias Latin - adiuncta hominem faciunt non minus quam homo adiuncta facit Latvian; Lettish - apstakli veido cilveku ne mazak ka cilveks veido apstaklus Occitan - lhi fachs fan l'�me autant que l'�me fai lhi fachs Polish - okolicznosci ksztaltuja czlowieka niemniej niz czlowiek ksztaltuje okolicznosci Romanian - circumstantele creaza omul �n aceeasi masura �n care omul creaza circumstantele Slovak - okolnosti utv�raj� cloveka nie viac, ako clovek utv�ra okolnosti Venetian - la circostanse fa l'omo no' manco de quanto l'omo fassa le circostanse Sicilian - 'i circostanzi fannu l'omu non menu di quantu l'omu fa i circostanzi Flemish - de omstandigheden maken de mens niet minder dan wat de mens met de omstandigheden doet Calabrese - i casi da a vita fani l'uomu nun menu di quantu l'uomu fa i casi da a vita Reggiano - al circostansi e fan l'om m�a meno ed quant l'om al f�ga al circostansi Ferrarese - il circustanzz f� l'oman non men ad quant l'oman al faga il circustanzz Bolognese - i qu� ch�i i stan d int�uren i fan l �men, br�sa manc ed quant l �men as f�ga i qu� ch�i i stan d int�uren _________________ All languages, please click on this link http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=435 _________________ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:" From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 2 15:02:45 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:02:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: update.563 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:51:19 -0500 (EST) From: AIP listserver To: physnews-mailing at aip.org Subject: update.563 PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 563 October 30, 2001 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James Riordon WHAT IS INTELLIGENCE? This may seem to be more of a question for psychologists than physicists. But two researchers (Joseph Wakeling, jwakeling at webdrake.net, now at the University of Fribourg, Switzerland, and Per Bak, Imperial College, 011-44-20- 7594-8528, p.bak at ic.ac.uk) argue that intelligence is not an abstract concept, but must be considered as a physical phenomenon. Any definition of intelligence, they say, cannot ignore a living being's environment, including its very own body. In their view, an organism is only intelligent relative to how well it solves the problems that its surroundings throw at it. This runs counter to many historical ideas, including the concept that the mind is separate from the body, or that it is possible to build a desktop computer that thinks like a human without having the same physical environment or body. To explore the idea of intelligence, the researchers ran computer simulations of artificial neural networks called "minibrains." In the simulations, 251 minibrains each attempted to pick the less popular of two choices, 0 and 1, analogous to 251 motorists all trying to pick the less congested road. This "Minority Game" would be repeated over many successive rounds. Each minibrain consisted of three layers of "neurons": "input neurons," which dictated how many past rounds it could remember, leading to an intermediary layer, which then led into an "output" layer that determined what choice was made. If the minibrain ending up making an incorrect choice, it would reduce the strength of the connections between neurons supplying the "wrong answer." The researchers were in for a surprise when they endowed all of the minibrains with equal abilities, which would be analogous to a bunch of motorists with the same amount of decision-making skill. In this situation, no minibrains correctly guessed the minority choice with even a 50 percent success rate, which is what you'd get by making the choice with a random flip of a coin. Even an E. coli bacterium, which searches for glucose by moving in random directions in its environment, is seemingly more intelligent than this. Only when the researchers introduced a "rogue" minibrain with more intermediate neurons to analyze the past rounds did it attain more than a 50 percent success rate. Their simulations suggest that intelligence often hinges on how much one can make use of the data in its physical environment. (Wakeling and Bak, Physical Review E, November 2001) X-RAY FLASH FLY PHOTOGRAPHY. Researchers at Cornell [SSZ: text deleted] ALL-OPTICAL ELECTRON INJECTOR. Conventional electron [SSZ: text deleted] From kmself at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 2 17:22:20 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:22:20 -0800 Subject: Napster execs needing culling In-Reply-To: <9d6c9f355d32ea9aaef917cae49156c9@hyperreal.pl>; from nobody@hyperreal.pl on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 10:56:20PM -0000 References: <20011030113315.A434@weathership.homeport.org> <9d6c9f355d32ea9aaef917cae49156c9@hyperreal.pl> Message-ID: <20011102172220.B6193@navel.introspect> on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 10:56:20PM -0000, Anonymous (nobody at hyperreal.pl) wrote: > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:29:58 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate wrote: > I'll Fed-Ex an invoice to Hillary Rosen immediately for all the air > he's using up! Hey I just 'farm' the air, I don't ask anyone to breath > it! She. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From unsubscribe at super-offers.net Fri Nov 2 16:23:46 2001 From: unsubscribe at super-offers.net (Michael Brandley) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:23:46 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: If you have a legal problem . . . We Can Help You TODAY! Let us take the next step for you. “FREE Legal Assessment” by a Top Rated Law Firm in Your State or Province. No hourly fees to pay! No hassles! Just tell us a little about your situation and we will guide you through the legal maze. We cover all areas of the legal system and you will be working with a specialized attorney. If you choose, we will even provide you with: · a FREE comprehensive will, · unlimited advice and consultation, · a review of documents and contracts, · and much, much more! All for only pennies a day! We are serious. CLICK HERE to get Your FREE Legal Consultation Today! This message is a promotional service of Super-Offers.Net. You are receiving this message because we feel the services offered may be of benefit to you. If you know anyone who would like to be added to our promotional list, e-mail add at super-offers.net and place the word "ADD" in the subject header. If you do not wish to receive this promotional information, please reply to unsubscribe at super-offers.net with the full body of this message and put the word "REMOVE" in the subject header or click here: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7583 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 2 16:08:21 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 18:08:21 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - ACLU: Face recognition systems ineffective - November 2, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE33575.F2DE3289@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/11/02/rec.face.recognition.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From weekendfreedom at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 01:06:45 2001 From: weekendfreedom at yahoo.com (Diana Miskin) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:06:45 +1000 Subject: My Password Message-ID: <200111020810.AAA15625@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3168 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jet at spies.com Fri Nov 2 19:30:32 2001 From: jet at spies.com (j eric townsend) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:30:32 -0800 Subject: Using Thermite to Drop Suspension Bridges...and U.S. plansto In-Reply-To: <3BE35EEC.C5F8BFB7@mozcom.com> References: <200111021920.fA2JKGU62869@mailserver1.hushmail.com> <3BE35EEC.C5F8BFB7@mozcom.com> Message-ID: At 11:05 +0800 2001/11/03, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: >I would be interested to see that formula. I thought I knew them all, >but all the thermite formulas I know require at least a two-stage >initiator or a direct blowtorch flame. You might want to do some research on 'thermite welding" -- it's a great way to put wires together as well: http://www.corrpro.com/catalog/itm_idx/53.htm -- J. Eric Townsend -- http://www.spies.com/jet Were you in USASSG/ACSI/MACV in Vietnam, 1967-1970? Drop me a line if so... From nobody at hyperreal.pl Fri Nov 2 11:47:41 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 2 Nov 2001 19:47:41 -0000 Subject: Kahn on Invsisble Ink (Was: Transparency Spray?) References: <3BDF5C72.27E822F9@lsil.com> Message-ID: <8dc9b151ca7b909a57e4a98153a18681@hyperreal.pl> S a n d y W r o t e: >Mike [mmotyka at lsil.com] wrote: > >> I would bet that there is SOMETHING that >> is dissolved by liquid freon. Just mark >> your letters with the stuff and look for >> the integrity of the mark at the other end. > >Or... is there something that REACTS to freon in an interesting way...? > > IIRC in 'The Codebreakers' Kahn states that invisible ink can always be read by exposing the paper to iodine vapor, since the 'ink' distorts the fibers of the paper. Even plain water can be used to write messages. This can be defeated by wiping the surface of the paper with a damp sponge, requiring Mallory to find the correct chemical to react with the ink and cause a color change. However, _this_ can be detected by the smear left on the fibers of the paper. Perhaps this also occurs with sprayed on solvents? This could work on 'unprepared' mail. As an added bonus, the iodine vapor is _supposed_ to fade out afterwards, unless you use too much of it as we did in science class trying to develop fingerprints. The Baker Street Irregulars From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 2 18:33:03 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:33:03 -0600 Subject: Security & Personal Communications Message-ID: <3BE3575F.B137D3D4@ssz.com> http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1474/byt20011017s0003/1022_hanger.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Fri Nov 2 20:54:01 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:54:01 PST Subject: FREE 21 Day Trial! 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Keep your eyes open and Have a Great Weekend!!! +>+>+> RELIVE THE MEMORIES OF YESTERDAY WITH CLASSMATES.com - Find out what your high school friends are doing now! http://www.roibot.com/w.cgi?R23683_highschool The Classmates.com website is totally cool and highly recommended by our Staff. It is FREE to register so Click Here Now!!! http://www.roibot.com/w.cgi?R23683_highschool +>+>+> FEATURED WEBSITE OF THE DAY... Sodaplay.com On this website they have essentially constructed wire frame models that you move around in 3-D space and see how they act. It's a pretty revolutionary type of website - I've never seen anything like it. This is a website for geeks and I would call it ULTRA-COOL. http://www.sodaplay.com +>+>+> TO VIEW OUR TWO DAILY STOCK PICKS BY HARRY AND BRUCE - Please go to our website http://www.wallstreetuniverse.com PEACE - Steven Schwartz and Staff mailto:support at wallstreetuniverse.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://inbound.postmastergeneral.com/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.qut.37kh From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 2 21:14:32 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 21:14:32 -0800 Subject: NSA Under Attack Message-ID: <200111030220.VAA20100@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> The Boston Globe had a story on October 27 about NSA refusing to share comint on US persons with other federal agencies, destroying the data upon its lawyers' advice sooner than usual in the face of anti-terrorism pressure. (URL may wrap) http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/300/nation/Spy_agency_destroys_data_anger ing_others_in_probe+.shtml If true, it's a big plus for NSA for complying with the law when others are rushing to bend, break and revise it. Some assholes are calling for unleashing NSA from its Church Committee restrictions, but a few sane people are saying, no, no domestic spying, we don't want to go through that again. To be sure, the story could be a cover for ignoring the law. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 2 21:29:28 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 21:29:28 -0800 Subject: Using Thermite to Drop Suspension Bridges...and U.S. plans to do so In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011102210314.032563f0@idiom.com> At 09:42 AM 11/02/2001 -0800, someone claiming to be Tim May wrote: >I found this URL, and several equally-interesting ones, as part of my >research on using thermite to collapse suspension bridges. Looks like >the U.S. military has been planning similar ops for a while...could be >why the alerts are being taken seriously by the gubmint. Which Gubmint? CA Gov. Gray Davis appears to have taken the FBI's warning seriously enough to go out on a limb and announce that they'd gotten a bit more specific than "Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid, Terrorists are Hiding under the Bed and we WON'T TELL YOU WHICH BED they're hiding under because that would give away our sources and methods! But This Time it's Rilly Cred-a-Bull!" And I think they were only saying that because Jay Leno was giving them a hard time about doing a second no-specifics-attached iteration of "Wolf! Wolf!" and they were worried the sheeple might not fall for it. Of course, that's entirely separate from the problem of whether there *are* wolves, and whether they're more likely to opportunistically take advantage of the current wave of terrorism to do their own, or whether they're more likely to lie low because there are too many cops running around who might catch them, plus too many other people who might get credit for their work, or whether some of the wolves work for or at least with the Feds. >Here's an item I sent to another forum about using thermite to cut the >cables on suspension bridges. A couple of folks had claimed that using >explosives on the piers and other support structures would be >extraordinarily difficult to arrange (and detectable by bridge security >personnel). I agreed, but noted in my piece that thermite quickly placed >on the main cables could cut or weaken the cables significantly. I'd be surprised if you couldn't do the job with an OKC-sized truck bomb - stop it at an appropriate point on the bridge, have the engine compartment smokebomb go off to create plausible deniability, hop into the car your co-conspirators are driving just in front of you, and drive away. If your smokebomb is good enough, and you do it during low traffic, you might get off the bridge without getting caught. The question is how much you trust your backup co-conspirator who's sitting at the vista point with the radio transmitter.... If they're not keeping all trucks off of the bridges, they can't stop it. >An interesting part of the URL chunk included below is that the DOD >endorses use of "peacetime" operations to collapse bridges...surely an >act of "terrorism" comparable to bringing down the World Trade Center. >(Oh, I forgot, if the CIA does it to a country we are not at war with, >it's "nation-building," not terrorism.) The Feds have apparently decided that they should drop their policy of helping the Peruvian Air Force shoot down suspected drug dealing planes, like that US missionary and her baby they took out this spring (shot them down and machine-gunned them as they swam out of the plane.) Not because extra-judicial executions are wrong, of course, or because shooting down civilian airplanes is terrorism, but because their accuracy has been low enough to cause embarassment. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 2 21:40:33 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 21:40:33 -0800 Subject: Wed 7 Nov Stanford - Provos talks on Detecting Steganogaphic Content on the Internet Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011102213204.0326e250@idiom.com> Niels Provos will be talking at Stanford on Wednesday, just a few hours before the EFF BOF at the Linux shindig in Oakland. Does anybody have a picture of a Peter Honeyman related shirt to auction off on E-Bay with appropriate embedded content? :-) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:33:53 -0800 From: ee380 Fnord-content: low, with scattered Elvis later in the evening Subject: Detecting Steganogaphic Content on the Internet * Niels Provos, UMich * W4:15 COMPUTER SYSTEMS LABORATORY COLLOQUIUM 4:15PM, Wednesday, November 07, 2001 NEC Auditorium, Gates Computer Science Building B03 Topic: Detecting Steganographic Content on the Internet Speaker: Niels Provos CITI, University of Michigan About the talk: Steganography is used to hide the occurrence of communication. Recent suggestions in US newspapers indicate that terrorists use steganography to communicate in secret with their accomplices. In particular, images on the Internet were mentioned as the communication medium. While the newspaper articles sounded very dire, none substantiated these rumors. To determine whether there is steganographic content on the Internet, this talk presents a detection framework that includes tools to retrieve images from the world wide web and automatically detect whether they might contain steganographic content. To ascertain that hidden messages exist in images, the detection framework includes a distributed computing framework for launching dictionary attacks hosted on a cluster of loosely coupled workstations. We have analyzed two million images downloaded from eBay auctions but have not been able to find a single hidden message. [see the abstract at http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380 for a list of resouces and related news articles. -dra] About the speaker: Niels Provos is a Ph.D. candidate at the Center for Information Technology Integration of the University of Michigan. His research interests are focused around computer security. Contact information: Niels Provos CITI, University of Michigan 535 W. William Street, 3rd floor Ann Arbor, MI GPS: 42.2775 N, 83.754167 W. 734 764 5207 provos at citi.umich.edu Acknowledgements: Thanks to the Computer Forum for support. The Computer Forum is the industrial affiliate program for the Computer Science Department and the Computer Systems Laboratory. Contact Suzanne Bentley, bentley at cs.stanford.edu, if your company is interested in participation. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Fri Nov 2 22:06:11 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:06:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: American Schools Need Flattening Too Message-ID: <200111030606.fA366B810515@artifact.psychedelic.net> Students in AmeriKKKan government-run schools have never had much freedom of speech, since the courts have ruled that all administrators have to do is mumble something about the "disruption" of the (laugh) "educational process" and civil rights conveniently evaporate. Still, there's something annoying when a high school student isn't allowed to publicly question the War in Afghanistan. Contrast this with the Vietnam War, before the police state had been racheted up to its current degree of tightness. Asscruft now wants life sentences for anyone yelling "Anthrax" in a public place, or sprinkling talcum powder on their friends. "Zero Tolerance" moves from the classroom to the rest of society. In other news, we have received credible information from several usually reliable sources that some unspecified person or group might commit an unspecified terrorist act against an unspecified target in the near but unspecified future. We urge everyone to be on their highest alert, and ignore anything that sounds like screaming children being cluster bombed. ----- CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A judge ruled Thursday that a 15-year-old sophomore cannot form an anarchy club or wear T-shirts opposing the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan because it would disrupt school. Katie Sierra was suspended from Sissonville High School for three days for promoting the club. She was also told she could not wear T-shirts with messages such as: "When I saw the dead and dying Afghani children on TV, I felt a newly recovered sense of national security. God Bless America." In a complaint filed with her mother, Sierra argued her right to free speech was being denied. Circuit Court Judge James Stucky agreed that free speech is "sacred" but he found that such rights are "tempered by the limitations that they ... not disrupt the educational process." [Congress shall make NO LAW abridging the freedom of NON-DISRUPTIVE speech (Guffaw)] Sierra said she'll pursue the dispute. "I don't want war. I'm not for Afghanistan," Sierra said. "I think that what we're doing to them is just as bad as what they did to us, and I think it needs to be stopped." James Withrow, lawyer for the Kanawha County Board of Education, argued that an anarchy club was inappropriate because students "do not feel that their school is a safe place anymore." "Anarchy is the antithesis of what we believe should be in schools," Withrow said. Sierra's attorney, Roger Forman, said she is "being punished for expressing her opinion." -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Nov 2 22:29:03 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:29:03 -0800 Subject: Homeland Insecurity Message-ID: <200111030629.fA36T3G82256@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Homeland Insecurity A Sacramento journalist is taken into custody by police and forced to destroy photos by an over-zealous National Guardsman. Apparently, the terrorists are indeed causing instability. the article: http://www.newsreview.com/issues/sacto/2001-10-25/cover.asp "Most [revolutions] have been [ended] by a subversion of that liberty [they were] intended to establish." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1784. ME 4:218, Papers 7:106 From nobody at hyperreal.pl Fri Nov 2 14:56:20 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 2 Nov 2001 22:56:20 -0000 Subject: Napster execs needing culling References: <20011030113315.A434@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <9d6c9f355d32ea9aaef917cae49156c9@hyperreal.pl> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:29:58 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate wrote: >>On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: > >> Perhaps you should expand your analysis to non-excludable goods (those >> things which, like air, don't get used up). > >Air (O2) does get used up. Kill the algea and the trees and see how long >you can breath. Great idea! I have a few trees in my garden that produce copious O2! I'll Fed-Ex an invoice to Hillary Rosen immediately for all the air he's using up! Hey I just 'farm' the air, I don't ask anyone to breath it! Once I factor in the rosebush and all the grass, I may have quite an enterprise going. Dogbert. From claudio.vani at jumpy.it Fri Nov 2 14:42:45 2001 From: claudio.vani at jumpy.it (Claudio V.) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:42:45 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dear I ask you informations!!! I want buy an tv card for my pc!!! What card i must buy for look tele+ on my pc? Where i found the software for look tele+? I'm sorry for my english!!!! Thanks From juicy at melontraffickers.com Sat Nov 3 00:00:19 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:00:19 -0800 Subject: Life imitates bad S/F In-Reply-To: <82D28F2C-CE32-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: Tim May wrote: >A report on this "strange coincidence" is at >http://www.marsearthconnection.com/attack3a.html#foundation > >Color me skeptical, though, as there is nothing particularly odd about >"the foundation" being the name of a group. The U.S. media translation >into "The Base" is just a variant of "The Foundation." One might as well >say that the translation of "The Ford Foundation" into Arabic suggests >Bin Laden is somehow connected with Ford..maybe this is why the >Brimstone tires explode? > >(Other etymological swirls: Foundation, founder, fund, base, basement, >grundlagen/ground, fundament (ass, too, as in "bottom")/fundamental, >basis, basic, a base observation, etc.--all are related to the concept >of "lowest level" or "basis" or "bottom"; the Indo-European words >obviously come from a "basis" or "foundation" or "fundamental" (fund, >fountain, etc.) in a mix of Proto-Indo-European roots. Arabic is a >Semitic language, like Hebrew, and so "Qaeda" has no particular obvious >connection to foundation/fundament/base.) > >"Foundations of Something" = "Grundlagen der...." = "Groundwork ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ >for ... = "The Basics of ...." > > Eureka!!! In the Dune Trilogy, the leader of the Desert Warrior People was a foreign prince in exile fighting to free his adopted land from the clutches of an Evil Empire. He took the name Usul (the base of the pillar) as his secret name within the tribe. After driving out the invaders, he took his army out on Jihad to conquer the rest of the universe. The book's supposed to be based on the exploits of Lawrence of Arabia, with many Arabic nouns and verbs, but The Great Game fits the mold just as well. http://www.jitterbug.com/origins/dune.html Closer to home: CMDR. BEN SISKO of DS9: "Starfleet Command seems to be a little jumpy since the Dominion attack on HQ. I guess they're accustomed to sitting behind their desks, not hiding under them. I hope they don't make any rash decisions..." Any inferences are strictly in the eye of the beholder... On a lighter note: Andrea Roth, telepath Talia Winters of Babylon 5 fame, is to become an anchor for CNN. (or has already, I don't keep track of these things) The PsiCorps getting into bed with CNN? Where's the outrage? http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000007.html When they catch Bin Laden do you think they will show off his book collection next to his gun collection, like they do with 'lone gunmen' and 'dangerous militia terrorists'? I wonder how many copies of Catcher in the Rye he owns? From blancw at cnw.com Sat Nov 3 01:05:37 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:05:37 -0800 Subject: Life imitates bad S/F In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From the Melon: :Closer to home: : : CMDR. BEN SISKO of DS9: : "Starfleet Command seems to be a little jumpy since the Dominion : attack on HQ. I guess they're accustomed to sitting behind their : desks, not hiding under them. I hope they don't make any rash : decisions..." . . . . . . . . . . An adjacent note: >From the Israeli Insider - http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0131.htm Israeli police advising U.S. counterparts in anti-terrorism techniques "Eighteen senior Israeli Police officers visited Palm Beach, Florida, this week as part of a 10-day educational seminar sponsored by the American Jewish Committee. The original purpose of the trip was to instruct the Israeli policemen in American law enforcement tactics. But in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington, the Israelis were called upon to give their American counterparts tips on handling terrorism." --- " 'Just walk with your eyes open and your mind working and take into consideration that everything, everything can be hazardous to your health,' Police Lt. Col. Danny Kuffler said." Of course, now in the US you also have to take into consideration that all those "nervous people" and those patrols anywhere, everywhere can be hazardous to your health. .. Blanc From nobody at hyperreal.pl Fri Nov 2 19:07:36 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 3 Nov 2001 03:07:36 -0000 Subject: Warning everything you do on your computer is being logged [3G9MV] Message-ID: <800c650e4c19fc6793281f3342c16294@hyperreal.pl> Woah! Actual cypherpunks related SPAM!!! SHOCK!!! HORROR!!! A MILD TINGLY SENSATION ON THE BACK OF THE NECK!!! Haven't spammers yet figured out we can identify spam by a random alphanumeric string at the end of the subject line? PS. Is there an easy way to stop windoze from adding a shortcut to the recently used documents list (%Win9x%recent) when I open a file from an encrypted partition/disk? >Subject: Warning everything you do on your computer is being logged [3G9MV] >From: nick4rE at cleandrive.net >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:38:16 -0800 (PST) >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > >Every move you make on your computer is being logged. From the >Internet sites you visit, to the documents you open... you are >being tracked. Even if you attempt to delete these tracks, Windows >retains secret log files. Deleting Internet Caches and >searching for history files would take hours of work manually. Clean >Drive deletes all these items from your >computer... automatically, as often as you like! > >Cleandrive the most effective, user friendly, cost efficient way to >wipe your harddrive clean of all logs that your computer >records while you surf the web. > >No more worring about what people will see on your computer. > >Goto this url to download http://www.cleandrive.net?rev=fucking_spammers From jokes at freeall.com Sat Nov 3 03:08:11 2001 From: jokes at freeall.com (Free4all Jokes) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 03:08:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joke of the Day! From Free4all.com Message-ID: <20011103110811.31838.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- CLICK HERE FOR THOUSANDS OF JOKES OR TO SUBSCRIBE TO JOKE OF THE DAY --------------------------------- If you do not wish to receive this mail please unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to the unsubscribe address. Your unsubscribe address: jokes-unsubscribe-cypherpunks=toad.com at boss.free4all.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume on Yahoo! Careers. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 972 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tekelili at pit.shub-niggurath.org Fri Nov 2 20:37:38 2001 From: tekelili at pit.shub-niggurath.org (tekelili at pit.shub-niggurath.org) Date: 3 Nov 2001 04:37:38 -0000 Subject: Security & Personal Communications Message-ID: Jim Choate pointed out: > Receiving a ZixMail message is simple: You get a regular e-mail message in which there is a link to a secure (SSL) web page. From there, if you've never used ZixMail before, you set up a key for yourself by adding your e-mail address and a password to the database. (Any e-mail address will do, but be aware that your "key" will be linked to that particular e-mail address from now on � you can't use another e-mail address for sending or receiving ZixMail without going through this setup again.) > (Get this:) > ZixIt quietly generates a key for you and stores it on their server for future use. > (Both halves? Zap. End program.) > Now you can go read and respond to the encrypted e-mail from your friend or colleague at the ZixMail web site. That e-mail can be responded to, back and forth, for an unlimited period of time � you cannot, however, generate a new piece of e-mail (unrelated, to another person) unless you download the software and run it yourself. > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Nov 3 06:42:47 2001 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 06:42:47 -0800 Subject: WEIGHT LOSS -JJQM Message-ID: <200111031442.GAA19575@ecotone.toad.com> INCREDIBLE WEIGHT LOSS PROGRAM THAT REALLY WORKS!!!!! NO PILLS, NO EXERCISING, NO SURGERY DONT CHANGE YOUR DIET AND LOSE WEIGHT GUARANTEED ITS SIMPLE, ITS EASY AND IT ALMOST FREE! YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.........................BUT THE WEIGHT! 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From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 06:10:03 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 08:10:03 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - FBI raids Trenton, N.J., apartment - November 2, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE3FABB.94F6E2D2@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/02/inv.nj.raid/ -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 06:21:58 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 08:21:58 -0600 Subject: WHDH-TV - Channel 7 - Boston - New England News - FBI searches for Ryder rental truck carrying suspicious cargo Message-ID: <3BE3FD86.8F5EDB11@ssz.com> http://www.whdh.com/news/local1.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pjoiarzabal at hotmail.com Sat Nov 3 06:38:59 2001 From: pjoiarzabal at hotmail.com (Pedro J. Oiarzabal) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:38:59 -0500 Subject: Basque-American code-talkers Message-ID: Dear Sir/Madam, I am a PhD student at the Center for Basque Studies, University of Nevada,Reno. At the moment I am researching the participation of Basque-Americans in WWII and The Korean War. In particular, I am interested in the so-called Basque code-talkers or the use of the Basque language in intelligence/communication services (Signal Corps Unit, since 1942, in San Diego or San Francisco communication centers during the Pacific Campaign). Also, I am interested in contacting WWII or The Korean War veterans or relatives, which could have been involved in the aforementioned service. I have not found any substantial information on the matter and that is the reason I am contacting you. I would appreciate if you could help me in the research -- through the publication of this notice in your website and/or newsletter, if possible Thank you, Yours sincerely, Pedro J. Oiarzabal Center for Basque Studies University of Nevada, Reno NV 89557 pjo at unr.edu http://basquestudies.unr.edu Intelligence Forum (http://www.intelforum.org) is sponsored by Intelligence and National Security, a Frank Cass journal (http://www.frankcass.com/jnls/ins.htm) From PaulMerrill at acm.org Sat Nov 3 06:52:22 2001 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H Merrill) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:52:22 -0500 Subject: American Schools Need Flattening Too References: <200111030606.fA366B810515@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <3BE404A6.EE8F950@ACM.Org> One must always be careful to blame the right entities. The schools made a rule and the judge made it law. CONGRESS wasn't involved - this time. PHM Eric Cordian wrote: > > SNIP> > Circuit Court Judge James Stucky agreed that free speech is "sacred" but > he found that such rights are "tempered by the limitations that they ... > not disrupt the educational process." > > [Congress shall make NO LAW abridging the freedom of NON-DISRUPTIVE > speech (Guffaw)] > SNIP> Eric Michael Cordian 0+ > O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" -- Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP PaulMerrill at ACM.Org [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/x-pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s] From jya at pipeline.com Sat Nov 3 10:09:23 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 10:09:23 -0800 Subject: Basque Code Talkers Message-ID: <200111031515.KAA12422@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> >From Intel Forum mail list: From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 08:29:36 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:29:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Rubber hose attack (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:45:26 -0700 From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com To: JohnE37179 at aol.com Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com, Jason.Gruber at btinternet.com, JohnE37179 at aol.com, rick_smith at securecomputing.com, vertigo at panix.com Subject: Re: Rubber hose attack the following from a thread on some of the fees related to fraud issues at http://lists.commerce.net/archives/internet-payments/200110/maillist.html specifically from a thread on Visa/MasterCard Antitrust Comments. Here's an interesting quote taken directly from Judge Barbara Nelson's decision (the full text of the decision is available at: ): "Defendants' ability to price discriminate also illustrates their market power. Both Visa and MasterCard charge differing interchange fees based, in part, on the degree to which a given merchant category needs to accept general purpose cards. Transactions with catalog and Internet merchants, for example, which rely almost completely on general purpose cards, have higher interchange fees than 'brick and mortar' merchants. Defendants rationalize this difference by pointing to increased fraud in these merchant categories, but this explanation is belied by the fact that the Internet merchant, not Visa/MasterCard or their member banks, bears virtually all the risk of loss from fraudulent transactions. Even today, Amazon's fraud rate is lower than mail-order companies, yet it is charged (indirectly, through the merchant discount) the same interchange fee as these mail order companies. The reality is that Visa and MasterCard are able to charge substantially different prices for those hundreds of thousands of merchants who must take credit cards at any price because their customers insist on using those cards." --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 08:30:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:30:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Rubber hose attack (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:26:28 EST From: JohnE37179 at aol.com To: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com, JohnE37179 at aol.com Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com, Jason.Gruber at btinternet.com, rick_smith at securecomputing.com, vertigo at panix.com Subject: Re: Rubber hose attack In a message dated 11/2/01 8:46:25 PM, lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com writes: << the following from a thread on some of the fees related to fraud issues at >> Again, this is only a very small part of the problem. The Inspector General's office reports that the average identity fraud in the Social Security Administration costs over $100,000. Texas Medicaid loses approximately 25% of its $4 billion budget to fraud. The ABA reports that the average cost of each credit card fraud for the issuer exceeds $3500. Each incident of identity fraud in recruiting costs DOD over $500,000. John Ellingson CEO Edentification, Inc. 608.833.6261 ||||# |||||| |||||| --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 08:30:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:30:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Proving security protocols (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:15:47 +1300 (NZDT) From: Peter Gutmann To: bmukherj at styx.uwaterloo.ca, cryptography at wasabisystems.com, rick_smith at securecomputing.com Subject: Re: Proving security protocols Rick Smith at Secure Computing writes: >At 09:00 AM 11/1/2001, Roop Mukherjee wrote: >>Can someone offer some criticism of the practice formal verification in >>general ? >Okay, I'll grab this hot potato. I may as well speak up as well then... I spent most of a chapter of my thesis looking at formal security verification in fairly exhaustive detail (if I missed anything I'm sure I'll hear about it soon :-). You can get it as http://www.cryptoapps.com/~peter/04_verif_techniques.pdf. The conclusion is that there are more effective ways to spend your time and money, but for the full story I'd recommend you read the above document. Peter. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From mlsxhp at citiz.net Sat Nov 3 10:38:58 2001 From: mlsxhp at citiz.net (mlsxhp at citiz.net) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:38:58 Subject: Home Computer Worker Message-ID: <200111030239.SAA02897@toad.com> Would you like to work at home ? Home Computer Worker process orders from your own home! All you need is a PC, Email, and quality printer!Email hmwks6 at yahoo.com with 'more info'' in subject line for more information This is a one time mailing. To be removed, reply to mlsxhp at citiz.net with REMOVE in the subject line. ____________________________________________________________ This message has been sent with an unregistered copy of HotCast Mass E-Mailer. < < This notice doesn't appear on the registered version > > From piolenc at mozcom.com Fri Nov 2 19:05:16 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 11:05:16 +0800 Subject: Using Thermite to Drop Suspension Bridges...and U.S. plansto References: <200111021920.fA2JKGU62869@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3BE35EEC.C5F8BFB7@mozcom.com> I would be interested to see that formula. I thought I knew them all, but all the thermite formulas I know require at least a two-stage initiator or a direct blowtorch flame. Also, the formulas I've seen prescribe much larger particle sizes than the colloidal range used in pigments, to keep reaction rates reasonable. Marc de Piolenc keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > > There are various formulations for thermite. The one I like best uses barium peroxide, sulphur and very finely divided aluminum (paint pigment works great). From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 09:58:50 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:58:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Rubber hose attack (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:51:10 -0700 From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com To: JohnE37179 at aol.com Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com, Jason.Gruber at btinternet.com, JohnE37179 at aol.com, rick_smith at securecomputing.com, vertigo at panix.com Subject: Re: Rubber hose attack i believe i said that ROI represented the total cost of the program to eliminate some fraud compared to the total amount of fraud. in the credit card scenerio it isn't enuf to know the cost per event. assuming that adding chips to those payment cards is a solution. in there US there are something less than a billion new cards sent out each year ... and adding a chip could cost on the order of $25 each. Just for the chips (ignoring for the moment the issue of reader provisioning) ... that cost might be somewhere in the $15b to $20b per annum range. There would have to be a huge number of $3500 per fraud events eliminated by a comprehensive chip program to justify it. so as referenced in the previous postings .... advances in technology can reduce the cost of dealing with fraud (in the chip card case ... it would be nice to reduce it from $20b/annum to maybe under $1b/annum; say a combination of significantly reduced chip costs as well as the number of new sent out each year) while at the same time increasing the amount of fraud (criminals find it easier to counterfiet existing cards increasing the amount of traud that happens). However, generically (except for some specific exceptions), the majority of fraud has tended to be insider fraud. Just improving things with strong authentication &/or identification doesn't directly address insider fraud, significant audit, command & control, and compensating procedures are needed to be in place to address significant amounts of insider fraud (who, effectively by definition, have already been authenticated and identified). JohnE37179 at aol.com on 11/02/2001 08:26 pm wrote Again, this is only a very small part of the problem. The Inspector General's office reports that the average identity fraud in the Social Security Administration costs over $100,000. Texas Medicaid loses approximately 25% of its $4 billion budget to fraud. The ABA reports that the average cost of each credit card fraud for the issuer exceeds $3500. Each incident of identity fraud in recruiting costs DOD over $500,000. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 3 10:51:29 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 12:51:29 -0600 Subject: MATT DRUDGE // DRUDGE REPORT 2001 - Delta Force gets bloody nose, intensity scares the crap out of everybody... Message-ID: <3BE43CB1.8A264B8A@ssz.com> http://www.drudgereport.com/flash33.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sat Nov 3 10:20:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:20:50 -0500 Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 Military Bars Green Party Leader from Flying posted by declan on Saturday November 03, @12:36PM from the airports-are-now-a-no-speech-zone dept. As one of the U.S. Green Party's top officials, Nancy Oden is used to controversy. But Oden never expected to be hassled by National Guard troops at her hometown airport of Bangor, Maine on Thursday and barred from flying out of it. She thinks it's because of a Green Party statement she co-authored that ran in the local newspaper. The statement calls for universal health care, limitations on free trade, and a stop to "U.S. military incursions" including the bombing of Afghanistan. (The Green Party has labeled the U.S. military action an act of "state terrorism.") Oden's unsuccessful attempt to fly to Chicago for a Green Party national meeting follows a Philadelphia man's unpleasant experience after reading the wrong book at an airport, a California journalist's headaches for daring to take photos inside an airport, and the arrest of another man in Germany for bringing politically-unacceptable reading material to an airport. Also see Indymedia coverage of Oden's experience; the transcript of our interview with her from her home in Jonesboro, Maine is below. --- Interview of Nancy Oden by Declan McCullagh November 3, 2001 (Ed. Note: Nancy Oden is a top U.S. Green Party official and a member of the party's coordinating committee. An organic farmer, peace activist, and all-around firebrand, she lives in Jonesboro, Maine.) _________________________________________________________________ "Just a few weeks ago I had a piece in the Bangor paper. It's on our website, greenparty.org... I submitted it under my name alone. It's a fairly radical piece; that's what I do. I'm a political and environmental activist. "I walked into the Bangor airport. What I saw was National Guard folks all over carrying machine guns... The atmosphere was very tense... This was Thursday... I went over to the American Airlines ticket counter way down at the end. Nobody else was there, except the clerk. I gave him my name. He didn't even ask for photo ID. It was almost like they were expecting me. He put it into the computer. He stayed on the computer a long time, like 10 minutes. "He put an S on the boarding pass, for search. He said, 'You've been picked for having your bag searched.' ... I said to him, 'This wasn't random, was it?' He said, 'No you were in there to be searched, no matter what.' I went over to baggage to put my bags through the X-ray and then went into the boarding area. "There was this National Guard guy there. He yells over at me, so everyone can hear, 'Bring your bags over here.' You know how they are when they're all puffed up with themselves. He said, 'Hurry up,' so I slowed down some more. "I put my bags on the table. The two women employees were standing there. [I tried to help them with a stuck zipper.] He grabbed my left arm, he started yelling in my face, 'Don't you know what happened? Sep. 11, don't you know thousands of people died?' I said, 'You can't do that.' He went to grab my arm, and I said, 'Don't touch me.' I saw an older airline guy shake his head, 'No,' and he backed off. "That insulted his little manhood. He could not force me to listen to his idiot ideas on Sep. 11, whatever it was he wanted to say. So he was angry. I hadn't done anything except pull away from him... I think he was trying to provoke me. They did the wand thing, they were done, and I heard him say real soft, 'Don't let her on the plane,' like he was talking to himself. "Then I go to get on the plane since we're all done and everything, and the American Airlines ticket guy says,' You can't get on the plane.' I say, 'Why not?' ... He says, 'Because this guy says you didn't cooperate with the search.' ... I said, 'Didn't you see him grab my arm?' He said, 'No, your back was to me.' "He said, 'Maybe we can get you on the 4:00 plane, it's the last one today.' I felt, okay, let's put up with this aggravation now and I'll go to Chicago and we'll see what we can do... Then this little guard guy, it wasn't enough to stop me, wasn't done with me. He said, 'Come with me.' I followed very slowly, I sat down for a while. I said I'm carrying these bags; I need a rest... It's called passive resistance. "He went and found the airport police to come and talk with me. He went and got six other National Guard guys and they all approached me. Here are these six untrained, ignorant, don't-know-how-to-deal-with-the-public, machine-gun-armed young guys in their camouflage suits with their military gear hanging off of it. "I looked up and started laughing, 'Is all this for me, guys? What is this about?' There was this big burly guy, he was in front. He said, 'You didn't cooperate with the search.' ... I said what he did was grabbed my arm, and I backed away... He said he only hit your arm. I said even if that's all he did, he's not allowed to do that. He can't hit my arm and demand I listen to him. "They had the airport policeman tell me, 'You're not flying out of this airport today.' ... Of course I had cooperated; why do I care if they search my bags? ... What I didn't like was being singled out because of my political views. They couldn't arrest me because there was no reason for that. They had people who saw there was nothing to arrest me for. They wanted to get back at me somehow because I was not a subservient female, because I questioned their manhood. "I went to the American Airlines guy and said, 'Is this just today?' He said, 'I don't know.' One clerk said, 'You could drive to Boston [five hours away] and see if you can get out of there.' "I never made it out of Bangor. I had to turn around and drive 100 miles back home... The fact that they gave the other airlines my name... They told me they did that... That's incredible." ### ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 13:28:51 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:28:51 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 11:06 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- > > From: Declan McCullagh > Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying > To: politech at politechbot.com > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:20:50 -0500 > > http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 > > Military Bars Green Party Leader from Flying > posted by declan on Saturday November 03, @12:36PM > from the airports-are-now-a-no-speech-zone dept. > > As one of the U.S. Green Party's top officials, Nancy Oden is > used to controversy. But Oden never expected to be hassled by > National > Guard troops at her hometown airport of Bangor, Maine on Thursday and > barred from flying out of it. She thinks it's because of a Green > Party > statement she co-authored that ran in the local newspaper. The > statement calls for universal health care, limitations on free trade, > and a stop to "U.S. military incursions" including the bombing of > Afghanistan. (The Green Party has labeled the U.S. military action an > act of "state terrorism.") What else is expected in a police state? The soldiers say who can travel, and where. Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. --Tim May From info at ironing-board-covers.co.uk Sat Nov 3 05:32:04 2001 From: info at ironing-board-covers.co.uk (Look At This) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:32:04 -0000 Subject: Are YOU looking for a new website, to develop an existing website, for cheaper hosting or domain names? 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From declan at well.com Sat Nov 3 11:06:34 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:06:34 -0500 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 12:28:47 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:28:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: Proving security protocols (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 14:15:33 -0500 From: "Steven M. Bellovin" To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Re: Proving security protocols Also see the National Research Council report "Trust in Cyberspace" (I served on that committee). The section on formal methods can be found at http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/trust/trust-3.htm#Page 95 (yes, there's a blank in the URL...) --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb Full text of "Firewalls" book now at http://www.wilyhacker.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From alex968888 at seed.net.tw Fri Nov 2 23:33:44 2001 From: alex968888 at seed.net.tw (ALEX) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:33:44 +0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <014b01c16439$e3073b60$0100a8c0@1> 網站剛推出，內容增設中... 免費軟體下載、理財討論、免費留言版 專屬聊天室、硬體討論、網站登錄、 中古買賣登錄 免費留言版、免費聊天室、免費理財諮詢、國外內即時股價、免費個人數位化憑證申請、 免費虛擬伺服器，自己開店當老闆，輕鬆又自在！！ 不景氣中另一種收入的來源.... 本站一律免費，不要懷疑！！ 太多好咚咚講不完...... 訂閱/取消電子報 　 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 24hlogo.gif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 16856 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ronald.hugh at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 3 16:29:45 2001 From: ronald.hugh at ntlworld.com (phillip hugh) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:29:45 Subject: Proven work at home system that GENERATES FREE LEADS Message-ID: <200111031520.HAA19764@ecotone.toad.com> PROVEN Work at Home System that GENERATES FREE LEADS! Hi, My name is (PHILLIP HUGH). I am an ordinary man living in the UK who as learned how to make a living on the Internet working from home. I am willing to teach you to do the same, in simple easy to understand lessons so you can be successful to. I will work with you and teach you everything I know for FREE! This is an international business and everyone is welcome, it doesn't matter who you are or where you're from, anyone can do this. You don't have to be a computer whiz or genius to learn to earn on the Internet. 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From april691 at swan.ac.uk Sat Nov 3 14:53:56 2001 From: april691 at swan.ac.uk (april691 at swan.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:53:56 -0500 Subject: Hey Mike quiutd Message-ID: <200111032253.fA3MruW15474@ns2.westnetstorage.com> Hey Mike I just got in I will give you a buzz in an hour or so From tammy691 at swan.ac.uk Sat Nov 3 14:55:17 2001 From: tammy691 at swan.ac.uk (tammy691 at swan.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:55:17 -0500 Subject: Hey Mike gnuisc Message-ID: <200111032255.fA3MtHW15754@ns2.westnetstorage.com> Hey Mike I just got in I will give you a buzz in an hour or so From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 3 16:39:40 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 18:39:40 -0600 Subject: The Sunday Times: Terrorism - Revealed - the bloody pages of Al-Qaeda's killing manual Message-ID: <3BE48E4C.86B0E800@ssz.com> http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/04/stiusausa02024.html? -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 18:43:41 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:43:41 -0800 Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 06:10 PM, Yeoh Yiu wrote: > Declan McCullagh writes: > >> Here's the explanation: >> http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47510,00.html >> >> -Declan > > 'The person who typed it just named it that' > > Yeah, that's an explanation. > But this is too trivial a metter to care about. > > YY > 1. If it's so trivial, why add your even _more_ trivial comment? 2. The "Skyfall" item is dated 11 October. So why are you commenting on it several weeks later? 3. Are you retarded? --Tim May "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -- Nietzsche From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 3 19:02:34 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 19:02:34 -0800 Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <20011103132050.A27908@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011103131409.038ad260@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:20 PM 11/3/2001 -0500, you wrote: >http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 > > Military Bars Green Party Leader from Flying > posted by declan on Saturday November 03, @12:36PM > from the airports-are-now-a-no-speech-zone dept. If the information provided in the article and your interview is reasonably accurate I suggest the Green Party, which is fairly popular in Maine, and others who oppose this sort of McCarthyesque law enforcement take direct action against them. By that I mean they identify the "thugs", including towns and photos, and invite the opposition to shun them in every legal way possible (e.g., denying them service at restaurants, shops, service stations, etc.) steve From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com Sat Nov 3 19:23:37 2001 From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:23:37 -0800 Subject: The Sunday Times: Terrorism - Revealed - the bloody pages of Message-ID: <200111040323.fA43NbN78722@mailserver1.hushmail.com> >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/04/stiusausa02024.html > >The sophistication of some parts of the manual has alarmed intelligence agencies, which have asked counter-terrorism experts given access to the document not to discuss or release key elements, particularly on bioterrorism. We were forced into limited self-publication when none of the major media outlets would handle it. I guess some properties are just too hot. We find the praise being heaped by these agencies gratifying. It has created a broader market for what we thought would be a niche property. Announcements to follow. obl From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 19:42:58 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:42:58 -0800 Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011103131409.038ad260@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <0A4AB32A-D0D6-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 07:02 PM, Steve Schear wrote: > At 01:20 PM 11/3/2001 -0500, you wrote: > > >> http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 >> >> Military Bars Green Party Leader from Flying >> posted by declan on Saturday November 03, @12:36PM >> from the airports-are-now-a-no-speech-zone dept. > > If the information provided in the article and your interview is > reasonably accurate I suggest the Green Party, which is fairly popular > in Maine, and others who oppose this sort of McCarthyesque law > enforcement take direct action against them. By that I mean they > identify the "thugs", including towns and photos, and invite the > opposition to shun them in every legal way possible (e.g., denying them > service at restaurants, shops, service stations, etc.) > This terrible situation shows what happens when the Government--cops, soldiers, agencies--have control over who is allowed to fly. In the older system, general security was NOT tied to ID. No ID, no tickets. The pressure exerted on this Green Party woman could not have been applied as easily. That this woman was obviously--if we are to believe what has been reported--singled out for harassment is a sign of what's to come. Consider the possibilities: -- people like Cypherpunks put on a "watch list" and similarly harassed and ultimately blacklisted -- journalists whose very jobs depend on airline travel may find themselves less willing to criticize government, lest they be added to the blacklist. -- any person on the outs with government may find himself added to the blacklist It really is no business of government to know the identities of those whose bags/etc. they are checking. Having government able to single out some travellers for special processing is a recipe for this kind of mischief. BTW, the _wrong_ tack to take would be some argument about a "right to travel," some over-ruling of Southwest's or United's right to pick its customers as it wishes. The preferred approach should be to have no ID at the _security_ checkpoint and to not have any laws requiring ID tied to tickets. In other words, the situation as of a few years ago. Then that Green woman would a) not have been stopped in the first place, and b) would have been able to hop any other flight without anyone being the wiser. There is no particular reason to believe that having the guys with M-16s know the True Name of the person whose bag they are checking will improve security in any way. --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 19:49:48 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:49:48 -0800 Subject: The Sunday Times: Terrorism - Revealed - the bloody pages of In-Reply-To: <200111040323.fA43NbN78722@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 07:23 PM, osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com wrote: >> http://www.sunday- >> times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/04/stiusausa02024.html >> >> The sophistication of some parts of the manual has alarmed >> intelligence agencies, which have asked counter-terrorism experts >> given access to the document not to discuss or release key elements, >> particularly on bioterrorism. > > We were forced into limited self-publication when none of the major > media outlets would handle it. I guess some properties are just too > hot. We find the praise being heaped by these agencies gratifying. It > has created a broader market for what we thought would be a niche > property. Announcements to follow. > > obl > Osama, From the excerpts published in the Times, it looks like you plagiarized major sections of the U.S. Army manuals, e.g., the famed Improvised Munitions Handbook and various explosives manuals. You even copied the CD-ROM distribution system! Now if you set up a "College of the Arabian Lands" patterned after our own College of the Americas school, and you copy the curriculum of teaching methods for assassination, execution of villages, mining of harbors, and using shaped charges to collapse suspension bridges, then I plan to report you to the RIAA! --Tim May "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 19:52:10 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:52:10 -0800 Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <0A4AB32A-D0D6-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <52A6CE39-D0D7-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 07:42 PM, Tim May wrote: > > In the older system, general security was NOT tied to ID. No ID, no > tickets. The pressure exerted on this Green Party woman could not have > been applied as easily. I didn't mean to say "No ID, no tickets." I meant to say that tickets were not tied to ID. Cash could be paid. (This doesn't mean inspections of bags aren't done, so the security issue is unchanged.) > --Tim May "That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau From squid at panix.com Sat Nov 3 18:10:51 2001 From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu) Date: 03 Nov 2001 21:10:51 -0500 Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon In-Reply-To: <20011011180948.A9479@cluebot.com> References: <200110112021.f9BKLNH04289@smtp-out.mac.com> <20011011180948.A9479@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Declan McCullagh writes: > Here's the explanation: > http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47510,00.html > > -Declan 'The person who typed it just named it that' Yeah, that's an explanation. But this is too trivial a metter to care about. YY From Raymond at fbntech.com Sat Nov 3 21:47:33 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:47:33 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> On 3 Nov 2001, at 13:28, Tim May wrote: > What else is expected in a police state? > The soldiers say who can travel, and where. > Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. Tim, you are getting much too cynical! The current events are very much a knee-jerk reaction to threats many can't understand. The National Guardsman who played the boogieman is probably a local good old boy with absolutely no cross cultural experience who translates his fears into hate against any person who appears to be any threat to what he thinks is important. After December 7th 1941 the USA and Canada interned all residents of Japanese descent and confiscated their property. At the time it apparently was a good idea, today it appears very extreme. What is happening today is still very minor and very likely to go away as people realize the stupidity of their current fears. The airport paranoia is nothing new in a global sense, Americans have just not experienced it domestically. Amsterdam airport has many soldier looking fellows with their automatics level and their fingers on the trigger. In Singapore in 1980, the old airport, taking a photo would get you arrested. Much the same in Jakarta until they opened the new airport in the mid-80s. Same in India in the 1980s plus the metal detectors were so sensitive the iron in your blood set them off and everyone was patted down. I have many times experienced being paraded, through a gauntlet of armed guards, on the tarmac beside the plane to identify my baggage before it was loaded on the plane and I was allowed to board. Talking about rude experiences, try arriving at a US west coast airport from southeast Asia with a Thai stamp in your passport and then telling immigration your occupation is a salesman. Off you go for a detailed search where you must rationalize your desire to visit the great nation of the US of A. In 1984 at Dehra Dun airport, Uttar Pradesh India, the airport terminal was a tent. I knew I shouldn't take a photo but attempted anyway. The armed soldiers were there before I could get a shot off and took my camera away - I got it back after the flight as you were not allowed to take photos from the airplane also. I was not to be trusted. As the armed soldiers were relieving me of my camera a business associate managed to take the same shot with a much smaller camera. A copy of this print can be viewed at http://www.fbntech.com/images/id-india.jpg In retrospect this seems pretty funny but at the time they were ready to cart me off to the local police station. If I wasn't a foreign visitor I would have been arrested. In the late 80s I was travelling through Jakarta airport with a stone axe I had purchased in carry-on baggage. It was an Irian Jayan looking piece which I figured I really needed. Airport security removed it from my baggage as they feared I may run amok. They returned the item upon landing in Singapore where it was considered very funny. Bottom line is muuch of what is going on now is a knee-jerk reaction to a threat which many can't understand. Over a short period of time most of the most of the excesses should be corrected as people have time to realize the extreme nature of many of the current restrictions. On a positive note the Anthrax attack through the postal system may bring some very positive changes as people seek to reduce the amount of mail they receive. If you are connected Email is faster and cheaper plus you can't get Anthrax through an Email message. If you use a Microsoft mail client you can still catch lots of shit but it really doesn't hurt you. On a the air travel side the current level of business travel really wasn't justified. Customers are always going to want to meet their vendors face to face but travel for business meetings within one business or government organization can easily be replaced with video conferencing. Actually why can't we change our government to where the assembly of elected respresentatives is virtual rather than physical. When you let them congregate in one place they detach themselves from any obligation to the voters and are open to lobbying efforts and making backroom deals. With today's technology they could be based within an office in their constiuency and linked to an assembly with video conferencing technology. An ideal system would make them available to their constiuents for a portion of the day and linked to an assembly on a video basis for a portion of the day. You could cut the corrupting influences and make the elected representative more responsive to the voters. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com "The Ultimate Enterprise Security Experts" http://www.fbn.bc.ca/sysecurt.html From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 22:10:27 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:10:27 -0800 Subject: Canadian telling me not to worry so much about Canada- and Singapore-style measures In-Reply-To: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 09:47 PM, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > Tim, you are getting much too cynical! The current events are very > much a knee-jerk reaction to threats many can't understand. The > National Guardsman who played the boogieman is probably a local > good old boy with absolutely no cross cultural experience who > translates his fears into hate against any person who appears to be > any threat to what he thinks is important. This is why we are supposed to be a nation of _laws_, not of _men_. It doesn't matter whether these soldiers are country bumpkins or not: the Constitution still applies. (Scholars may opine that Bangor International Airport has "invited" soldiers onto its property, blah blah, or that ordinary search and seizure provisions are waived, blah blah, but the fact is that soldiers are now frisking people without search warrants. At this rate, the entire Fourth will be mooted.) > > After December 7th 1941 the USA and Canada interned all > residents of Japanese descent and confiscated their property. At > the time it apparently was a good idea, today it appears very > extreme. What is happening today is still very minor and very likely > to go away as people realize the stupidity of their current fears. "At the time it apparently was a good idea"? You are hopeless. Every one of the guards, judges, and processing officials should have been tried for kidnapping and then hung by the neck until he was dead. (One reason I have been cynical dates back to 1969 when a teacher was piously explaining the Nuremberg precedent, that "just following orders" is no defense. I brought up the imprisonment of Japanese-ancestry and Italian-ancestry persons, without constitutional due process. My teacher just shrugged and said "We won the war, so it didn't apply to us.") I never understood why the survivors of the American concentration camps didn't track down their captors and quietly kill them during the 50s. > The airport paranoia is nothing new in a global sense, Americans > have just not experienced it domestically. Amsterdam airport has > many soldier looking fellows with their automatics level and their > fingers on the trigger. In Singapore in 1980, the old airport, taking > a photo would get you arrested. Much the same in Jakarta until > they opened the new airport in the mid-80s. Same in India in the > 1980s plus the metal detectors were so sensitive the iron in your > blood set them off and everyone was patted down. This nation is not one of those shitholes, a point you seem to be oblivious to. We are talking about the Constitution, not what is commonplace in ad hocracies like Canada or in police states like Singapore and Indonesia. --Tim May "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound" From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 00:12:53 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 22:12:53 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> References: <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103220204.02d67dd0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 09:47 PM 11/3/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >On 3 Nov 2001, at 13:28, Tim May wrote: > >> What else is expected in a police state? >> The soldiers say who can travel, and where. >> Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. > >Tim, you are getting much too cynical! That isn't the right word. Any reasonable person reading Declan's article would realize the dumb cunt brought it on herself by being a curmudgeon and a very uncooperative one at that. Wash your mind out with some soap, both of you. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 00:20:08 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 22:20:08 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 01:28 PM 11/3/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: >On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 11:06 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 >What else is expected in a police state? > >The soldiers say who can travel, and where. > >Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. You didn't really read the interview, did you? The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Even you wouldn't spit in the eye of a cop at your door and expect no action to be taken. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 00:22:55 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 22:22:55 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103222048.02d4f640@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:04 AM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Besides, if this guardsman was as naive as you say how did he know who >she was? As I understood it her name was on a list. ..."on a list." of people who purchased their tickets online. w00h00. >Think about that, on a list... *yawn* >You're an apologistic idiot. You resemble a latah and your CDR node munges From: headers in an obnoxious manner. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 01:07:36 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 23:07:36 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:32 AM 11/4/01 -0800, S a n d y wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> You didn't really read the interview, >> did you? >> >> The dumb cunt brought it on herself. > >Yeah, just like all those other rape victims... ....Read the article/interview. Every airline passenger is going through heightened security screening. Dig deeper, you'll find that all airline passengers who purchase tickets online get flagged for bag searches (discrimination by auto-selection). Were other green party members detained or singled out? No. Were other green party members denied air transport? No in both cases, else we would have heard about that by now too, right? One of the airport flunkies even says they'll try getting her on the 4 pm flight, she plays stick in the mud a bit more and gets herself bounced out of the airport, so yeah, go through the park naked at 2 AM, you have no grounds to object if approached by someone who is naked - what you do from there is on you. She was not denied right to travel (as Tim thought), she was free to get in her car and drive to another airport, to a private plane or even all the way to her destination if she wanted. She was denied the use of that particular mode of transport at that particular time, "we" cannot ride horses on the freeway either. Yes that is too a comparable example of denial of right to travel in the precise manner "we" want. A true equestrian would not have pissed the nasty guards off, I guess greens think they can act haughty and snub everyone with impunity - wrong answer (aka idealism = 0, reality = 1). Get a clue, S a n d y. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 01:09:05 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 23:09:05 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103220204.02d67dd0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103230749.02dbf470@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 02:33 AM 11/4/01 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: >Since when are we required to be "cooperative" with illegal searches? Why do you think it was an illegal search? >And what's with the "dumb cunt" bit? I calls 'em like I sees 'em, and boy, what she did was dumb. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 01:12:12 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 23:12:12 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103230923.02d686b0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:51 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >On 3 Nov 2001, at 22:20, Reese wrote: > >> The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Even you wouldn't spit in the >> eye of a cop at your door and expect no action to be taken. > >Yes, you are right, she was searching for attention but she received >more than she bargined for. Oh boo hoo hoo. I shed crocodile tears. Truly. >The point is how did the front line grunt know who to abuse? People flagged by the ticket agent, people who purchase tickets online. That's what got her flagged. Dig deeper, you are missing it. >Obviously there was a bit of a conspiracy >here, don't you think? Obviously. Carry on, you don't need me for this. Reese From Raymond at fbntech.com Sat Nov 3 23:12:53 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:12:53 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE479D0.17614.14C2077F@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:04, Jim Choate wrote: > And you're naive. > It appeared extreme to a minority of people then. The fact it happened > once is enough to make sure it DOESN'T happen AGAIN, not even once is > acceptable. Unfortunately this isn't an isolated case. They are not > kicking kids out of school for wearing 'anarchy' t-shirts and wanting to > form an 'anarchy club' in school. Both acceptable behaviour in America > (spelled with a 'c', not a 'k'). > > Besides, if this guardsman was as naive as you say how did he know who she > was? As I understood it her name was on a list. > > Think about that, on a list... > > You're an apologistic idiot. You may be right, I may be naive and I may be an apologistic idiot. Your mention of the list and the guardsman being aware of this horrible threat coming through the airport were assumed but my thought was it was a local redneck or folks in a vigilante mood. It would appear this person was targeted. When such folks take actions like this there is a reaction, ie - the victim had it written up in a press release/article and the guardsman and airport appear pretty stupid. Hopefully the victim of this epsode, and others of similar episodes, will take legal action and sue. Hopefully the American system will retain this ability. I once lived in a society where everything I did was recorded. I was a foreigner and I expected it. I got picked up in a business related deal and the officers started the interrogation by telling me what they knew of my existence, they knew everything. My long work hours were interpretted as an attempt to cook the books. They knew every detail of my personal life. I was guilty because I was an eager beaver, had to be.... In western liberal democracies we believe we have lots of freedom. Cross the wrong people and your name is on a list. You are naive if you for any moment thought this was not the case. It isn't right but it is reality. Hopefully in the long run we are moving to a system which is more open and free. We aren't there yet, hopefully after the excesses of this current crack-down we will move on to a better status quo. The whims of society and government tend to oscillate in a sine wave manner, from one extreme to the other. The current trend is to a dark side, from a national government point of view. They are going to do a lot of stupid things which will take some time to correct. It is wrong and bad but I can't do much to stop it. I can call or write my local elected representitives but they are trendiods which go along with current trends. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbn.bc.ca History of a Telco, A Fairy Tale http://www.fbntech.con/telcohis.html From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 3 22:04:37 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:04:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > On 3 Nov 2001, at 13:28, Tim May wrote: > > > What else is expected in a police state? > > The soldiers say who can travel, and where. > > Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. > > Tim, you are getting much too cynical! And you're naive. > After December 7th 1941 the USA and Canada interned all > residents of Japanese descent and confiscated their property. At > the time it apparently was a good idea, today it appears very > extreme. It appeared extreme to a minority of people then. The fact it happened once is enough to make sure it DOESN'T happen AGAIN, not even once is acceptable. Unfortunately this isn't an isolated case. They are not kicking kids out of school for wearing 'anarchy' t-shirts and wanting to form an 'anarchy club' in school. Both acceptable behaviour in America (spelled with a 'c', not a 'k'). Besides, if this guardsman was as naive as you say how did he know who she was? As I understood it her name was on a list. Think about that, on a list... You're an apologistic idiot. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 02:05:14 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:05:14 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE49CBC.19366.154A772C@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103234758.02d6c870@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 01:41 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >On 3 Nov 2001, at 23:07, Reese wrote: > >> equestrian would not have pissed the nasty guards off, I guess greens >> think they can act haughty and snub everyone with impunity - wrong answer >> (aka idealism = 0, reality = 1). > >I don't really like the "greens" type of person as they tend to blame >every thing on me and my desire to be like an average person with >average consumption of our worldly resources but why exactly >should they be targeted for special treatment over other travellers >who may be more astute in voicing their beliefs? They weren't, except perhaps by me. Oden was first selected because of how her ticket was purchased, then singled out for special treatment because of how she acted in the airport. >The decision to permit travel should be a matter of policy and not No, you still don't get it. Try this: > So you're saying they made this quote up, IOW it is not > true that she is blacklisted for her political views? > > "An official told me that my name had been flagged in > the computer," a shaken Oden said. "I was targeted > because the Green Party USA opposes the bombing of > innocent civilians in Afghanistan." Dammit! No matter how hard I try to be quiet and lurk, the stupidity on these lists just forces me to decloak! Her name was flagged in the computer, which Ms. Ogen MISINTERPRETED as meaning it was because of her politics. The real story is that it was flagged, but not because of politics, but because she bought her ticket online. People who use Expedia, CheapTickets, LowestFare, Orbitz, and other rock-bottom and somewhat ANONYMOUS ticket services are having their tickets flagged for (S)earch much more frequently than people who use ticket agencies or buy their tickets direct from the airlines. Second, when law enforcement officials are fucking with your shit and tossing your car or your house, you do not interfere. If you feel the need to assist, with a stuck zipper on your l uggage, for example, you ask politely if you can help with that. You do not grab at it as if you were dealing with your clumsy spouse or child. Only a fucking stupid person, whose mind has been liquefied by the benefits of privilege would even remotely think that they could "show ass" in this sort of climate and get away with it. From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 02:11:41 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:11:41 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103230923.02d686b0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104000541.02d6cd70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 01:58 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >On 3 Nov 2001, at 23:12, Reese wrote: > >> Oh boo hoo hoo. I shed crocodile tears. Truly. >> >> People flagged by the ticket agent, people who purchase tickets online. >> That's what got her flagged. Dig deeper, you are missing it. > >> Obviously. Carry on, you don't need me for this. > >What am I missing here? Your earlier text, which give context to my responses. >Was the prospective passenger carrying >weapons or anything which could be judged as a weapon.? Was >the prospective passenger deemed a threat to any of the other >passengers or the completion of the flight to its destination? If the >answers to any of the above questions were yes then the person >should have been arrested, charged and dealt with in a court of law. >Otherwise the passenger should have been allowed on the flight >regardless of political belief or profile of ticket purchase. You still do not allow for attitude. "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." >The ticket purchaser has suffered discrimation Self-inflicted and self-aggravated. >If you start to agree to this type of decision you are no different than >the Muslims who claim all non-believers to be an enemy. "Us v Them" straw man. >Think about it! Smell what you shovel. Reese From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 3 22:13:14 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:13:14 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Serious charges dropped against firefighters arrested at WTC melee - November 3, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE4DC7A.5ADA6109@ssz.com> Good...now let them recover the bodies in a dignified (and timely) manner. http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/03/rec.attacks.wtc.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 3 22:15:17 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:15:17 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Preservationists collect 9/11 tapes, fliers, Web pages - November 3, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE4DCF5.8F22D5D4@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/03/rec.attacks.preservation.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 00:22:14 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:22:14 -0800 Subject: Canadian telling me not to worry so much about Canada- and Singapore-style measures In-Reply-To: References: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE48A10.22111.1501838C@localhost> On 3 Nov 2001, at 22:10, Tim May wrote: > This is why we are supposed to be a nation of _laws_, not of _men_. It > doesn't matter whether these soldiers are country bumpkins or not: the > Constitution still applies. (Scholars may opine that Bangor > International Airport has "invited" soldiers onto its property, blah > blah, or that ordinary search and seizure provisions are waived, blah > blah, but the fact is that soldiers are now frisking people without > search warrants. At this rate, the entire Fourth will be mooted.) What is happening now is wrong. I hope the lawyers get a hold of it and sue all involved and the elected officials which allowed it to happen are removed from office and also assume a financial liability. I would like to berate your country for allowing such country bumpkins into such positions but I note the bumpkins at the Vancouver BC airport were taking the pins out of Remembrance day poppies. > "At the time it apparently was a good idea"? It was a horrible idea but yet so very few realize the true magnitude of the darkness of this action. Kinda like going back to an era of witch hunts except there was no test. > You are hopeless. Every one of the guards, judges, and processing > officials should have been tried for kidnapping and then hung by the > neck until he was dead. Your views are a touch strong. I am disappointed you so quickly label me because my beliefs are less extreme than yours. Kinda puts you in the same category as the country bumpkin National Guardsman in Maine don't you think? > (One reason I have been cynical dates back to 1969 when a teacher was > piously explaining the Nuremberg precedent, that "just following orders" > is no defense. I brought up the imprisonment of Japanese-ancestry and > Italian-ancestry persons, without constitutional due process. My teacher > just shrugged and said "We won the war, so it didn't apply to us.") In 1969 I was too far gone on the hormones of youth and other distractions to notice much. By the early 70s the takeover of India by the British was my cause. The British were a bunch of bastards and they conquered a society for basically economic gain. I was wrong in being overly critical of such actions as they are just part of the evolution of man's society, one society is always overcoming another society. We can't feel guilt for the actions of previous generations long since passed away. Where do we draw the line? To me it is obvious Japanese North Americans should have been compensated for any loss of property or better yet it should not have happened. What about the evil deeds of the US government against the American Indians? Yes, the society of the day screwed those people out of their land. Should our guilt extend that far back or should we have a limitation on guilt similar to your suggestion of a 50 year rule on art pieces. > We are talking about the Constitution, not what is commonplace in ad > hocracies like Canada or in police states like Singapore and Indonesia. The interpretation of the American Constitution is very much based on current standards. There are some long term redeeming values but much is based on current standards. At one point in America the circulation of currency was restricted to keep the masses in their place. Look into the burned over region of New York. During Hoover's time in the FBI the Mafia was denied and homosexuals were persecuted and now we are told Hoover was most likely a homosexual. I don't see a great difference between America during Hoover's time and some of the Asian authoritarian governments of today. The point being most societies are in a constant state of change and hopefully the change is in a position direction. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Delivering on the policy of "Lowered Expectations" http://www.fbntech.com/service1.html From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 00:24:11 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:24:11 -0800 Subject: Metricom assets sold for $8.25 million Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104000325.032798b0@idiom.com> By the time this article got forwarded to me, the URL for the original article was gone, but the title's pretty indicative :-) www.metricom.com has a "goodbye" page, with pointers to the bankruptcy auction for interested bidders. A google search reveals that back in September, Metricom turned down Aerie's offer for $20M (oops), and also that Aerie had been planning to spend $3.5B to build a 20000 mile fiber backbone for the ISP they wanted to be. >From: "Steve Stroh" >To: "Dewayne Hendricks" >Subject: Metricom assets sold for $8.25 million >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:36:19 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > > >Dewayne: > >What's not mentioned in this article: >* What Aerie bought was mostly intellectual property - the software and >designs for the radios, patents, etc. >* Unclear is if Aerie bought the existing inventory. Apparently there are >lots of radios already manufactured, but not deployed, sitting in storage. >* Metricom's WCS spectrum is not included in the sale to Aerie (apparently >the asset managers feel that it will fetch considerably as much as $50M - >sometime). Unlikely given AT&T Wireless Services' decision to junk their >Fixed Wireless System which will free up more WCS spectrum. >* None of the physical assets of the network are included in this sale, >including poletop radios, wired access points, network operation center, >etc. All of that was "abandoned in place" to free Metricom of the liability >of back rent, lease payments, and other liabilities. >* Rights Of Way were similarly abandoned... > >It'll be interesting to watch! For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ From measl at mfn.org Sat Nov 3 22:30:31 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:30:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: A reasonable editorial assessment of Afghanistan status. Message-ID: An amazing editorial piece, considering that it is the very first one I have seen that didn't have Shrub's balls slapping against the author's chin: http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/column.billpress/index.html WASHINGTON (Tribune Media Services) -- Almost two months into the war against terrorism -- and one month into the war against anthrax -- it's fair to ask: 'how are we doing?' The answer is: 'fabulous!' Just ask anyone in the White House. Thanks to Lloyd Grove of the Washington Post for assembling this verbal collage of praise issued by members of the Bush administration to each other. Let others play the blame game. They're busy playing the praise game, showering each other with compliments, not always well-deserved. Of course, the praise starts from the top. President Bush boasts: "I've put together a fabulous administration. I picked a great vice president in Dick Cheney." He's proud of his Treasury Department, too: "Secretary Paul O'Neill is doing a fabulous job." And he has no doubt we'll win the war: "I've got great confidence in the American military." In each case, the truth belies the praise. If the military's doing such a great job, why -- after three weeks of nonstop, intensive bombing of one of the poorest countries on earth, with no navy, no air force and only a ragtag band of soldiers using obsolete weapons -- is the Taliban still in power? Why do they still control every major city in Afghanistan? What's left to bomb? And why are Osama bin Laden's whereabouts still unknown? For that matter, if Dick Cheney's doing such a fabulous job, why are his whereabouts still unknown and why isn't he allowed back into his White House office? And is Paul O'Neill really doing such a fabulous job when the nation's suddenly in a recession? The president is also quick to stroke Secretary of State Colin Powell: "He's done a fabulous job of assembling a coalition of people from all around the world to fight terror." Nice words, but again, the reality falls short. Of the so-called coalition, only Britain is contributing man- and firepower. Saudi Arabia won't let us fly sorties from their soil. Egypt has refused to supply troops. And Pakistan, our most important ally in the region, is urging the United States to stop bombing. Except for England, for all practical purposes, we're fighting this war alone. Other Bush team leaders join in self-praise. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld brags: "We've done a pretty good job of being able to now function over that country from the air." Which is as meaningless as his assertion, on the second day of bombing, that we had "run out of targets." In three weeks, we have learned the same lesson Russia learned the hard way: Being able to fly military jets safely over Afghanistan is far from being able to dislodge Afghani fighters from their mountain strongholds. By the way, where are the massive defections of Taliban fighters we were told to expect once bombs started dropping? But it's not just the war against terrorism. On the home front too, fighting anthrax, administration members are lavish with praise. Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson gives kudos to the Centers for Disease Control: "They're doing a good job of identifying cases that might be anthrax." And White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card chimes in: "We have outstanding health care experts that understand this problem and are addressing it quickly." Tell that to postal workers, who were assured by the CDC there was no need to wear protective clothing or be tested against anthrax. That was before two mail carriers died from exposure to the disease. Completing the congratulatory circle, Card singles out his boss for praise: "He is in great shape. He's a very disciplined man. He gets up very early in the morning. He does his homework. And he works hard during the day. He exercises, and he sleeps well at night." So, there you have it. Things must be going well, because not even the Taliban can keep George Bush from his treadmill. Actually, there are disturbing signs that neither war is going well. The generals warn we may not be able to defeat the Taliban until November 2002. Secretary Rumsfeld recently said we may never catch Osama bin Laden. And neither the CDC, the FBI or the CIA have any idea where the anthrax-laden letters came from. Maybe the Bush administration would do a better job fighting both terrorists and anthrax if they weren't so busy patting each other on the back. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 00:33:07 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:33:07 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: Reese wrote: > You didn't really read the interview, > did you? > > The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Yeah, just like all those other rape victims... S a n d y From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 02:44:50 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:44:50 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE4A68A.20138.1570C2BE@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103234758.02d6c870@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE49CBC.19366.154A772C@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004043.02d67590@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 02:23 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >> The real story is that it was flagged, but not because of >> politics, but because she bought her ticket online. People >> who use Expedia, CheapTickets, LowestFare, Orbitz, and other >> rock-bottom and somewhat ANONYMOUS ticket services are having >> their tickets flagged for (S)earch much more frequently than >> people who use ticket agencies or buy their tickets direct >> from the airlines. > >I understand this. Point is traveller shouldn't be denied travel >unless there is something which dictates they are in some way a bad >person which at that point they should be arrested or advised to >remedy an ID problem. If a group was to persist in such behavior >they be open to a class action lawsuit. http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml In Godfrey's case I agree, but Oden brought it all on herself. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 02:49:33 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:49:33 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104000541.02d6cd70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004541.02d649e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 02:38 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:11, Reese wrote: > >> > >Maybe simple but a legal way of looking at it which must form the >basis of dealing with such situations Note that "legal" and "legitimate" are not fully synonymous. >> You still do not allow for attitude. "We reserve the right to refuse >> service to anyone." > >Attitude is a very scary principal to which base passage. If this is >truly the case I smell massive lawsuits down the road once the >perceived threat retreats. What is precedent and case history of the "We reserve the right..." signs in public establishments, restaurants for example? How about the "no shirts, no shoes, no service" signs, whether food is sold at the establishment or not? >> Self-inflicted and self-aggravated. > >The airline or airport authority would lose this one in a trial. They'll lose Godfrey, this one I doubt it. >> Smell what you shovel. > >All roses on this side. Sure. Reese From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 4 00:51:17 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:51:17 -0800 Subject: A reasonable editorial assessment of Afghanistan status. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BE49105.7556.125F8A6@localhost> -- > http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/column.billpress/ > index.html In each case, the truth belies the praise. If > the military's doing such a great job, why -- after three > weeks of nonstop, intensive bombing of one of the poorest > countries on earth, with no navy, no air force and only a > ragtag band of soldiers using obsolete weapons -- is the > Taliban still in power? In past wars, CNN has been rather accurately called "Communist News Network", but in this war they seem incapable of mentioning the fact that our armed forces frequently fuck up. When the airforce started blasting Taliban front line positions, the press's natural response was to interview the Northern Alliance commanders, who were watching the raids. The Northern alliance commanders all said that the targeting sucked, and had to be fixed, that the bombing was ineffectual, that the bombs were just rearranging the rocks, that it had to be done differently. It was very difficult to discern this thumbs down from the cnn network. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG SxRU3lHqgtYAV0RggQdcQczDfESW1m138LY24Kfn 4t7GYJnNJiF8/qHlhz4wEO/M1pCLlB3M2JNHJpkKn From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 00:51:31 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:51:31 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> On 3 Nov 2001, at 22:20, Reese wrote: > The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Even you wouldn't spit in the > eye of a cop at your door and expect no action to be taken. Yes, you are right, she was searching for attention but she received more than she bargined for. The point is how did the front line grunt know who to abuse? Obviously there was a bit of a conspiracy here, don't you think? Now this bitch may have deserved it but who is making the decision and what is the basis for that decision? It may appear deserved until you are the target, then your thoughts change a bit. Obviously you have never been a target before and been put thought the usual grinding. I don't like liberal tree hugger types and rarely feel for them but if they restrict her travel privilages what is to stop them from picking on you? You may think you are bullet proof but until you actually experience being a target it is difficult to understand the sense of violation one experiences when one is done over by a system. I kinda like a place where there is a rule of law and everything is totally predictable, something America appears to be moving away from at this moment. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Harnessing The Dynamics of The Internet http://www.fbntech.com From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 01:41:50 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:41:50 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <3BE49CBC.19366.154A772C@localhost> On 3 Nov 2001, at 23:07, Reese wrote: > equestrian would not have pissed the nasty guards off, I guess greens > think they can act haughty and snub everyone with impunity - wrong answer > (aka idealism = 0, reality = 1). I don't really like the "greens" type of person as they tend to blame every thing on me and my desire to be like an average person with average consumption of our worldly resources but why exactly should they be targeted for special treatment over other travellers who may be more astute in voicing their beliefs? The decision to permit travel should be a matter of policy and not determined by individuals based on their personal beliefs or attitudes. I have experienced this type of treatment in third-world countries where the person making the determination could be influenced by monetary issues. I have always visited places where the degree of hassle was determined by spiritual specifics, ie - religion. Ring a bell here? Green bad, Republican good, Christian good, Muslim bad?, or the other way round!! It would be very sad if America was to become this shallow! Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Offering PUP - Unbreakable Encryption Techology http://www.fbntech.com/pup.html From declan at well.com Sat Nov 3 22:49:49 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:49:49 -0500 Subject: A reasonable editorial assessment of Afghanistan status. In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 12:30:31AM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20011104014949.A20459@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 12:30:31AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > An amazing editorial piece, considering that it is the very first one I > have seen that didn't have Shrub's balls slapping against the author's > chin: > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/column.billpress/index.html That is true, but it is also predictable. Popular journalism follows cycles: Shock, horror, glorify the leader, ask when the bombing's going to start, demand to know when the bombing's going to end, and so on. If it weren't for the anthrax attack the media may not be as harsh on Bush, but because of the administration's apparent incompetence in that area, expect to see more of this soon. -Declan From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 01:58:20 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:58:20 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103230923.02d686b0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> On 3 Nov 2001, at 23:12, Reese wrote: > Oh boo hoo hoo. I shed crocodile tears. Truly. > > People flagged by the ticket agent, people who purchase tickets online. > That's what got her flagged. Dig deeper, you are missing it. > Obviously. Carry on, you don't need me for this. What am I missing here? Was the prospective passenger carrying weapons or anything which could be judged as a weapon.? Was the prospective passenger deemed a threat to any of the other passengers or the completion of the flight to its destination? If the answers to any of the above questions were yes then the person should have been arrested, charged and dealt with in a court of law. Otherwise the passenger should have been allowed on the flight regardless of political belief or profile of ticket purchase. The ticket purchaser has suffered discrimation and should be able to seek damages. Or, has ther hassling of citizens become a normal event? If you start to agree to this type of decision you are no different than the Muslims who claim all non-believers to be an enemy. Think about it! Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Offering PUP - Unbreakable Encryption Techology http://www.fbntech.com/pup.html From usanz11 at excite.com Sun Nov 4 00:04:07 2001 From: usanz11 at excite.com (usanz11 at excite.com) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 02:04:07 -0600 (GMT) Subject: Free Cell Phone Offer Message-ID: <200111040806.fA4869I08569@host3.yournethost.net> Greetings and blessings; On offer a FREE cell phone and software. No obligation, check it out. www.ausom.com A great opportunity to make meaningful partime inclme from the Internet. Take a look. www.ausom.com Easy Does It, tom From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 02:23:45 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 02:23:45 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103234758.02d6c870@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: <3BE49CBC.19366.154A772C@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE4A68A.20138.1570C2BE@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:05, Reese wrote: > The real story is that it was flagged, but not because of > politics, but because she bought her ticket online. People > who use Expedia, CheapTickets, LowestFare, Orbitz, and other > rock-bottom and somewhat ANONYMOUS ticket services are having > their tickets flagged for (S)earch much more frequently than > people who use ticket agencies or buy their tickets direct > from the airlines. I understand this. Point is traveller shouldn't be denied travel unless there is something which dictates they are in some way a bad person which at that point they should be arrested or advised to remedy an ID problem. If a group was to persist in such behavior they be open to a class action lawsuit. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Offering PUP - Unbreakable Encryption Techology http://www.fbntech.com/pup.html From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 00:33:42 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 02:33:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103220204.02d67dd0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > > At 09:47 PM 11/3/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > >On 3 Nov 2001, at 13:28, Tim May wrote: > > > >> What else is expected in a police state? > >> The soldiers say who can travel, and where. > >> Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. > > > >Tim, you are getting much too cynical! > > That isn't the right word. > > Any reasonable person reading Declan's article would realize the > dumb cunt brought it on herself by being a curmudgeon and a very > uncooperative one at that. > > Wash your mind out with some soap, both of you. > > Reese Since when are we required to be "cooperative" with illegal searches? And what's with the "dumb cunt" bit? That's not just idiotic, it's idiotic even for you. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 02:38:27 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 02:38:27 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104000541.02d6cd70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:11, Reese wrote: > Maybe simple but a legal way of looking at it which must form the basis of dealing with such situations > You still do not allow for attitude. "We reserve the right to refuse > service to anyone." Attitude is a very scary principal to which base passage. If this is truly the case I smell massive lawsuits down the road once the perceived threat retreats. > Self-inflicted and self-aggravated. The airline or airport authority would lose this one in a trial. > Smell what you shovel. All roses on this side. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Delivering on the policy of "Lowered Expectations" http://www.fbntech.com/service1.html From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 03:10:37 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:10:37 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004541.02d649e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:49, Reese wrote: > What is precedent and case history of the "We reserve the right..." > signs in public establishments, restaurants for example? How about > the "no shirts, no shoes, no service" signs, whether food is sold > at the establishment or not? You can deny services to people providing you have a consistent set of policies, ie - all folks are treated equally. How do you deny air travel to some but not all of a similar nature. I smell lawsuits once the paranoia is over with. > >> Self-inflicted and self-aggravated. > > > >The airline or airport authority would lose this one in a trial. > > They'll lose Godfrey, this one I doubt it. Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Delivering on the policy of "Lowered Expectations" http://www.fbntech.com/service1.html From lawyer at visahlb.com Sun Nov 4 03:14:47 2001 From: lawyer at visahlb.com (Lawyer) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:14:47 PST Subject: US VISAS / BUSINESS SEMINAR Message-ID: <1400$999219783670864$10$0@exploder4> SUBJECT: US VISAS / BUSINESS SEMINAR Телефон: 303-5420 (Москва) Не упустите эту возможность получения ответов на эти вопросы профессионалом в этих областях. Количество мест ограничено. "Морилак Адвокатская Фирма" США/Флорида Объявление. Г-н Морилак - деловой адвокат по имиграции и бизнесу (профессор делового менеджмента) будет в Москве с понедельника по среду для ответа на вопросы, которые вы можете иметь по созданию бизнеса в США, получению профессиональной визы или инвестиций в недвижимость США. Г-н Морилак проведет семинары в Понедельник, Вторник и Среду (ноябрь 5-7) с 9:00 до 11:00; с 15 до 17:00; с 20:00 до 22:00. Стоимость 45$ на человека. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7216 bytes Desc: not available URL: From saeq at gmx.net Sun Nov 4 03:52:43 2001 From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 03:52:43 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103220204.02d67dd0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > References: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011104034534.030dbc20@pop.gmx.net> At 10:12 PM 11/3/01 -1000, reeza at hawaii.rr.com wrote: >Any reasonable person reading Declan's article would realize the >dumb cunt brought it on herself by being a curmudgeon and a very >uncooperative one at that. Goodbye, Reese. *PLONK* -- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 01:59:45 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:59:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE49CBC.19366.154A772C@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > Ring a bell here? Green bad, Republican good, Christian good, > Muslim bad?, or the other way round!! It would be very sad if > America was to become this shallow! Too late. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From blancw at cnw.com Sun Nov 4 04:03:45 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 04:03:45 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> Message-ID: >From Raymond D. Mereniuk: :I kinda like a place where there is a rule of law and everything is :totally predictable, something America appears to be moving away :from at this moment. ---------------------- But the situation *is* entirely predictable: Some people in scary positions of responsibility do not want to see, hear, or know The Truth, because they don't know what to do about it. It's all symbolism and familiar stereotype - if you want to get by airport security, . wear an NYPD hat . put a U.S. flag pin on your jacket lapel or somewhere on the top front of your clothing . if taking a book to read, be sure to change the cover to one from those current books written by prominent journalists or other liberal communications personalities . move in a calm manner - no sudden moves, say to help with zippers or anything (remember: they don't trust you, and only they are allowed to determine the course and direction of your next step - any sign of too much or too little self-confidence will be viewed with suspicion) . as you pass by the armed guards, look in their eye, smile sweetly, and say "I'm *so* glad you're here - I feel safer now!" . at the ticket counter, when they ask for your ID, begin with "baahaaahaaa". They will respond with recognition and relax a little. Later, you can send out your posts anonymously and be viciously, uncompromisingly, honest. I think that's how some of the original 'Patriots' did it. .. Blanc From blancw at cnw.com Sun Nov 4 04:59:56 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 04:59:56 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <200111041222.HAA00690@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: >From someone who isn't really John Young: :This 'Blanc' is now in the databank of crowing terrorists, and will be :reluctantly quoted in the next national high alert. Deceiving the homeland :guardians is treason. ---------------------- But, it's not my fault! As is said of girls wearing overly-feminized clothing: they *asked* for it. .. Blanc (I don't need to cc you; I _know_ you're there) From bo.didley at hushmail.com Sun Nov 4 06:51:24 2001 From: bo.didley at hushmail.com (bo.didley at hushmail.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 06:51:24 -0800 Subject: Who will miss Tim? Message-ID: <200111041451.fA4EpOt70833@mailserver1.hushmail.com> > On 3 Nov 2001, at 13:28, Tim May wrote: > > > What else is expected in a police state? > > The soldiers say who can travel, and where. > > Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. > I'ts time for Tim May to take his stash of Y2K gold and his arsenal and *****GET THE FUCK OUT****** He can let us know if he finds a better place. From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 4 07:16:29 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 07:16:29 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> Message-ID: <200111041222.HAA00690@granger.mail.mindspring.net> >Later, you can send out your posts anonymously and be viciously, >uncompromisingly, honest. I think that's how some of the original >'Patriots' did it. As did the 'Atta Boys.' This 'Blanc' is now in the databank of crowing terrorists, and will be reluctantly quoted in the next national high alert. Deceiving the homeland guardians is treason. So the whole thread was entrapment, starting with Declan the arch bait setting cause traitor. What do you expect of 1A in these days except ensnaring dumb fundamentalists. The moles and sleepers fingering the all too constitutional credulous. Home Schooling of the Americas. Take a moment to not cc me your calling attention to your deathwish by bragging your guerilla smarts. From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 4 07:26:34 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 07:26:34 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011104034534.030dbc20@pop.gmx.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103220204.02d67dd0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <200111041232.HAA09148@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Luthor, for the children's sake, come into the present: PLONK is ancient rune of 'thanderals vapiding gas. Hmm, like Luthor Blisset, hoary collectivist nym, which is not to say all reds are dead just fomenting CDC misses. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 05:34:14 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:34:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE479D0.17614.14C2077F@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > Your mention of the list and the guardsman being aware of this > horrible threat coming through the airport were assumed but my > thought was it was a local redneck or folks in a vigilante mood. It > would appear this person was targeted. When such folks take > actions like this there is a reaction, ie - the victim had it written up in > a press release/article and the guardsman and airport appear > pretty stupid. Hopefully the victim of this epsode, and others of > similar episodes, will take legal action and sue. Hopefully the > American system will retain this ability. The American system is supposed to PREVENT it from taking place AT ALL. You're supposed to respect and protect peoples rights up front, not after they drag your ass into court. That guardsman took an oath to protect and uphold the Constitution and ONLY follow legal orders. Detaining or otherwise harrassing anyone for nothing more than their political views, however objectionable isn't acceptable in this country. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 05:36:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:36:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > You didn't really read the interview, did you? > > The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Even you wouldn't spit in the > eye of a cop at your door and expect no action to be taken. No she didn't. She has a legitimate right to express her political views of her governments actions with no consequences. This is as silly as the hassles other people are getting based on their reading material. You don't seem to understand American freedom either. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 05:45:08 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:45:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Blanc wrote: > Later, you can send out your posts anonymously and be viciously, > uncompromisingly, honest. I think that's how some of the original > 'Patriots' did it. Actually I think they first sent out warning, tarred and feathered the objectionable who ignored it while dumping their property in the local bay, then they sent out their notes saying "See, we meant it". -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 05:57:59 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 07:57:59 -0600 Subject: GMU Student Charged in Flag Burning Message-ID: <3BE54967.79E748CD@ssz.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/wjla/20011102/lo/gmu_student_charged_in_flag_burning_1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 05:59:36 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 07:59:36 -0600 Subject: States Devising Plan for High-Tech National Identification Cards (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3BE549C8.CB8D0251@ssz.com> I believe the Constitution requires the Feds to be in charge of inter-state commerce (see definition 2 of that word if you're confused)... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32717-2001Nov2.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 08:07:14 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 08:07:14 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: Reese wrote: > At 12:32 AM 11/4/01 -0800, S a n d y wrote: > >Reese wrote: > > > >> You didn't really read the interview, > >> did you? > >> > >> The dumb cunt brought it on herself. > > > >Yeah, just like all those other rape victims... > > ....Read the article/interview. Did. I don't care if she were singles out or not. NOBODY deserves the treatment she got. Period. Reese illustrates one of the less advertised benefits of free speech. Because Reese is free to way and write what he thinks, we all get to learn just what a misogynistic apologist for the initiation of force he is. Thanks for the warning, Reese. S a n d y From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:24:01 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:24:01 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004541.02d649e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 03:10 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a >big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them "useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? 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You have absolutely nothing to lose! This could be the most fascinating and profitable business of your life! ************************** This is a one time mailing and you'll be automatically removed. If you wish, email 87477332 at excite.com with remove in subject. *************************** From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:31:33 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:31:33 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082817.02d4d5a0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 07:36 AM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: Me, to Tim May: >> You didn't really read the interview, did you? >> >> The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Even you wouldn't spit in the >> eye of a cop at your door and expect no action to be taken. > >No she didn't. She has a legitimate right to express her political views >of her governments actions with no consequences. This is as silly as the >hassles other people are getting based on their reading material. What is your evidence she was detained and denied a right to fly because of her political views? What evidence do you think I can present, even by drawing from the text of her interview with Declan, in her own words, that she was denied a right to fly out of that airport because of how she acted once she arrived there? >You don't seem to understand American freedom either. I love the pot calling the kettle black in the morning, it smells like stupidity. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:36:28 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:36:28 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104083219.02d6f250@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 08:07 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> At 12:32 AM 11/4/01 -0800, S a n d y wrote: >> >Reese wrote: >> > >> >> You didn't really read the interview, >> >> did you? >> >> >> >> The dumb cunt brought it on herself. >> > >> >Yeah, just like all those other rape victims... >> >> ....Read the article/interview. > >Did. I don't care if she were singles out or not. NOBODY deserves the >treatment she got. Period. I agree. Yet that is how millions of Americans are treated every day, usually because their skin isn't white enough, their bankbook not fat enough. Sound familiar? >Reese illustrates one of the less advertised benefits of free speech. >Because Reese is free to way and write what he thinks, we all get to learn >just what a misogynistic apologist for the initiation of force he is. > >Thanks for the warning, Reese. Further, how simple the analysis of S a n d y is, that he resorts to pathetic ad hominem in an attempt to invalidate the truth of what I have said. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:45:05 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:45:05 -1000 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <8B5A0BBB-D14A-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> References: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 09:36 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: >Actually, a person or business can "refuse to serve" on nearly any basis >except race or gender or a few other politically-correct things. "Tim's >Surf Shop" can choose not to wax the board of Reese, for whatever reason >it chooses. That's right, whether "I" like it or not. >This is why I said in an earlier piece that the Godfrey/Oden cases >should not be used to further the notion of a "right to travel" (if that >"right" is construed as trampling on the rights of Southwest, United, >Tim's Surf Shop, etc. to pick and choose their customers). > >The focus should be on these things: > >-- the presence of soldiers and cops in inspection points, with way too >much lattitude to inspect bags, pull people out of line, question their >reading materials, etc. At the moment, it's National Guard, there is a long precedent for use of Nat.Guard troops for civil things. So long as they do not bring in regular active duty military, in violation of the posse comitatus act. >-- the requirement that ID be presented, which has very little to do >with airline security (for reasons Cypherpunks are very familiar with) An issue in its own right, the airlines were requiring it before 911 and the airline requiring it is not the same as the government wanting it. >-- the general headlong rush into police state measures, with the >sheeple saying "I want to feel safer. I have nothing to hide. Please, >officer, take away my rights! Please, soldiers, check what we are >reading! I want _more_ rights taken away!!" The Patriot Act still amazes me. What were those congresscritters thinking? They weren't, just reacting blindly by the looks of things. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:47:59 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:47:59 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084723.02d50340@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 10:30 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> Would you say greeting every police officer >> you meet by calling them "useless pigs" >> would be begging for victimhood? > >I'd say it's protected speech. If the cop can't handle that, can't live up >to his oath to uphold the law of the land, than he shouldn't be a cop. Meanwhile, in real life,,, From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:49:06 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:49:06 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084829.02d692c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:50 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: >> At 03:10 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >> >> >Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a >> >big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. >> >> Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them >> "useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? > >I'd say it was a good litmus test as to who should actually be a police >officer. Anyone who got perturbed by such a comment has zero business >being a law enforcement officer. I agree. Given the current crop of cops, is it begging for victimhood? Reese From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 06:58:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:58:48 -0600 Subject: Salon.com News | Freedom begets evil, and other realizations Message-ID: <3BE557A8.9E3603B8@ssz.com> http://salon.com/news/col/vincent/2001/11/02/libertarians/index_np.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 4 08:59:46 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 08:59:46 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103230923.02d686b0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> -- On 4 Nov 2001, at 1:58, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > What am I missing here? Was the prospective passenger > carrying weapons or anything which could be judged as a > weapon.? Was the prospective passenger deemed a threat to > any of the other passengers or the completion of the flight > to its destination? ] Let us imagine the following scenario. You are going to board a plane. Someone who is known to be, or plausibly alleged to be, a supporter of the terrorist movements the US is currently at war with, also wants to board the same plane. In that situation, your views on their right to travel by plane will probably undergo a sudden change. The enemies of freedom, which this woman certainly is, see freedom as weakness and fear, and use it against us. This creates the danger that they succeed in making us give up freedom, as has perhaps happened in this case, but it is not merely a matter of dumb fucks using terrorism to institute a police state. There is a real threat here, which has to be met with real violence. Analogously in Vietnam, the enemy mingled with the populace, so that even with the best of intentions, US forces wound up killing a lot of ordinary civilians, a problem made far worse by the stupid "body count" policy, where young ambitious officers, like the future Senator Kerrey, were apt to rack up very large body counts by any means convenient. Senator Kerrey was cerrtainly a mass murderer, and the guardsmen who stopped her from flying were certainly thugs, but the reason there are arguably grounds for overlooking Kerrey's cynical murders and the guardsmen's thuggery ,is that in the face of this quite real threat even good people will do things that are hard to distinguish from the things that bad people do. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 27HMOB8BBeIGfg7aT3n+oRAgMH8E0Sjhpgg7w6id 42AvXfoapB6NduA4gJt1a16zWy7lOQmEju4DrrtGm From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 09:14:47 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:14:47 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> Message-ID: James A. Donald wrote: > Let us imagine the following scenario. > You are going to board a plane. > Someone who is known to be, or plausibly > alleged to be, a supporter of the > terrorist movements the US is currently > at war with, also wants to board the same > plane. In that situation, your views on > their right to travel by plane will > probably undergo a sudden change. Even in James' wildly exaggerated scenario, I see no reason to stop them from traveling after they had been shown not to be a threat (as was the case with this woman). Nope, political BELIEFS are sacrosanct. Show me a tangible physical threat or leave the lady alone. > The enemies of freedom, which this woman > certainly is... Decaf, James, decaf. S a n d y From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 11:31:47 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:31:47 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104083219.02d6f250@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104085137.02c58f00@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 10:46 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> Yet that is how millions of Americans >> are treated every day, usually because >> their skin isn't white enough, their >> bankbook not fat enough. Sound >> familiar? > >All too familiar. That's why it surprises me how avidly Reese >embraces that sort of bully-boy tactics. The time to fight it is after, when there is a tort, not when you are desperate and at their mercy. Oden will not get far, I expect. >> how simple the analysis of S a n d y is, >> that he resorts to pathetic ad hominem >> in an attempt to invalidate the truth of >> what I have said. > >First, I'd already challenged and defeated your "truth." You said "Yeah, just like all those other rape victims..." except she was not a rape victim, the plunging neckline and miniskirt is not at issue. This is more like stripping all your clothes off for a stroll through the park at 2 AM, as I said in my response. >Second, your are a "misogynistic apologist for the initiation of force." Why is that in quotes? Where did it come from? Regardless, you are not reading me, you are inferring from me if you believe that. I said she brought it on herself, I did not say she deserved it. > Why are you offended? Stirring through the responses to me, it strikes me that those of you who have taken issue with me are the ones offended, I'm just calling the situation like I see it. >You seem to embrace that image anyway. Third, you are a hypocrite. >Please re-read what you said about the "cunt" in question. That what she did was dumb and that she brought it on herself? Here is what she said about it all, in her own words, from http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 "There was this National Guard guy there. He yells over at me, so everyone can hear, 'Bring your bags over here.' You know how they are when they're all puffed up with themselves. He said, 'Hurry up,' so I slowed down some more. Slowed down some more. "I put my bags on the table. The two women employees were standing there. [I tried to help them with a stuck zipper.] He grabbed my left arm, he started yelling in my face, Interfering with the baggage searchers. I said, 'You can't do that.' He went to grab my arm, and I said, 'Don't touch me.' Lipping off at the security personnel. I saw an older airline guy shake his head, 'No,' and he backed off. The "No" could have meant anything, including she failed the search. "That insulted his little manhood. Her subjective opinion, this interview is filled with it. I heard him say real soft, 'Don't let her on the plane,' like he was talking to himself. We have only her word for this. "Then I go to get on the plane since we're all done and everything, and the American Airlines ticket guy says,' You can't get on the plane.' I say, 'Why not?' ... He says, 'Because this guy says you didn't cooperate with the search.' ... She didn't. "He said, 'Maybe we can get you on the 4:00 plane, He offers. He said, 'Come with me.' I followed very slowly, I sat down for a while. I said I'm carrying these bags; I need a rest... It's called passive resistance. Passive resistance. Resisting. She didn't cooperate with the search or anything else, did she? He went and got six other National Guard guys and they all approached me. Here are these six untrained, ignorant, don't-know-how-to-deal- with-the-public, machine-gun-armed young guys in their camouflage suits with their military gear hanging off of it. "I looked up and started laughing, She laughed. "They had the airport policeman tell me, 'You're not flying out of this airport today.' ... After all the shit, they respond. They wanted to get back at me somehow because I was not a subservient female, because I questioned their manhood. She interprets wrongly, again. "I went to the American Airlines guy and said, 'Is this just today?' He said, 'I don't know.' One clerk said, 'You could drive to Boston [five hours away] and see if you can get out of there.' They still offered to get her to her destination, until she finally pissed them all off. Here is what Wal Sheasby said about it all. Reese Written by Walt Sheasby on Solidarity List Serv. Who is Walt Sheasby? See, for example: http://www.greeninformation.com/SHEASBYINDEX.htm http://pages.prodigy.net/gmoses/nvusa/gopal.htm http://www.indianagreenparty.org/gmo.mv LEADER OF GREEN SPLINTER GROUP FIBS ABOUT AIRPORT HASSLE In an official press release from its Chicago headquarters, the Greens/Green Party USA, a small splinter group that opposes recognition of the Green Party of the United States as the electoral voice of the movement that ran Ralph Nader for President in 2000, declared that one of its leaders was stopped from boarding a flight after a check turned up her name was on a computer list because the organization opposes the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan. The release said: "Armed government agents grabbed Nancy Oden, Green Party USA coordinating committee member, Thursday at Bangor International Airport in Bangor Maine, as she attempted to board an American Airlines flight to Chicago." "An official told me that my name had been flagged in the computer," a shaken Oden said. "I was targeted because the Green Party USA opposes the bombing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan." The press release was relayed around the nation as a first signal of the reach of the new draconian Patriot Act. But it turns out that Nancy Oden was apparently not barred because of a computer check, but because she did not comply with standard screening for weapons. While who said what is not clear, it appears that her name was not flagged by a computer search of potential terrorists or their supporters, according to a news report in the Bangor Daily News on Nov. 3. http://www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/article.html?ID=44958 While the undue harassment of airline travelers is to be condemned, it does not seem that this incident warrants fears of a major violation of Constitutional guarantees of free speech, as it first appeared. The group that Nancy Oden leads is nevertheless using the incident to draw attention and support to itself. One member of the group's National Council urged: "The first thing to do is to organize a committee, include spokesperson/ spokespersons. Contact civil liberties organizations including the National Lawyers Guild, the ACLU ... Ask organizations to sponsor defense committee- Seek prominent attorney who may need to have a license to practice in Maine- Send releases out every day. Has Ralph Nader been contacted? What about Phil Donahue CONTACT TALK SHOWS. TRY TO GET POLITICIANS TO SUPPORT, Barbara Lee. Organizations in Maine who know Nancy and will back her up." If the incident had taken place as Nancy Oden described it, it would mean that other Green activists and leaders of other anti-war groups would also be on computer lists and barred from flying, which reportedly has not been the case. The exaggeration of her victimization may only serve to discredit opposition to the Bush Administration's attack on civil liberties. It may also further isolate the Green Party USA, which saw a majority of delegates at its July 20 National Convention leave to form a new Green Alliance, which has its first convention in New Orleans January 18-21. From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 4 09:36:57 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:36:57 -0800 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> Message-ID: <8B5A0BBB-D14A-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 03:10 AM, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:49, Reese wrote: > >> What is precedent and case history of the "We reserve the right..." >> signs in public establishments, restaurants for example? How about >> the "no shirts, no shoes, no service" signs, whether food is sold >> at the establishment or not? > > You can deny services to people providing you have a consistent > set of policies, ie - all folks are treated equally. How do you deny > air travel to some but not all of a similar nature. I smell lawsuits > once the paranoia is over with. Actually, a person or business can "refuse to serve" on nearly any basis except race or gender or a few other politically-correct things. "Tim's Surf Shop" can choose not to wax the board of Reese, for whatever reason it chooses. This is why I said in an earlier piece that the Godfrey/Oden cases should not be used to further the notion of a "right to travel" (if that "right" is construed as trampling on the rights of Southwest, United, Tim's Surf Shop, etc. to pick and choose their customers). The focus should be on these things: -- the presence of soldiers and cops in inspection points, with way too much lattitude to inspect bags, pull people out of line, question their reading materials, etc. -- the requirement that ID be presented, which has very little to do with airline security (for reasons Cypherpunks are very familiar with) -- the general headlong rush into police state measures, with the sheeple saying "I want to feel safer. I have nothing to hide. Please, officer, take away my rights! Please, soldiers, check what we are reading! I want _more_ rights taken away!!" --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From memcs1103 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 07:43:07 2001 From: memcs1103 at yahoo.com (My Email Center) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:43:07 -0600 Subject: --Most Responsive Bizop E-mail Leads! 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Prices start at only $30! ----------------------------------------------- - SPECIALS! - ---------------------- **FREE with EVERY order: Demo of ListMan e-mail manager software **Orders of 50,000 or more: FREE copy Express Mail Server to send your messages! -This is not a demo but a permanent license for the software! **Orders of 200,000 : - Resale Rights for EMS! -->You keep 100% of the profits - InfoDisk with 1000+ Money Making Reports - CheckMAN software _______________________________________________________________ To be removed from future mailings: mailto:yar1024 at yahoo.com?Subject=Remove From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 11:45:24 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:45:24 -1000 Subject: Reese's Test for the Discrimination of Pigs From Cops (Re: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011104105614.007f7320@pop.sprynet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004541.02d649e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104094408.02dce170@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 10:56 AM 11/4/01 -0800, David Honig wrote: >At 08:24 AM 11/4/01 -1000, Reese wrote: >> >>Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them >>"useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? >> > >No, it would be testing the professionalism of the cop/pig in question. Yep. >Any cop who reacts to being called "useless pig" is, in fact, one. >And should be removed from positions of authority. Good luck. >Problem with Nat'l Guardsthugs (or any MIL) >is they don't have the training of a cop. >[Professional] Cops know force gradations, psyops, constitutional >law and case history. Professional soldiers know shout, shoot. >Civil ops, civility, is not their domain. Yep, as far as I know. Too bad none of this justifies the way she resisted the search and then lied about it all, after the fact. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 11:48:50 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:48:50 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084829.02d692c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104094708.02dd5100@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 01:03 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: >>>I'd say it was a good litmus test as to who should actually be a >>>police officer. Anyone who got perturbed by such a comment has >>>zero business being a law enforcement officer. >> >>I agree. Given the current crop of cops, is it begging for victimhood? > >No, you don't actually. You DO miss the point. Well, that's that - the final arbiter of all things has spoken. >If 'real life' isn't governed by 'principles' then there is nothing but >who has the biggest stick. > >Which happens to be the entire point that 'principles' were developed, to >alleviate the problems of 'big sticks'. Whatever, Jim. Say, don't you have more url's to forward with only a vague subject line to indicate what they are about? Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 11:51:13 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:51:13 -1000 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104094902.02dd6eb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:54 PM 11/4/01 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> At the moment, it's National Guard, there is a long precedent for use >> of Nat.Guard troops for civil things. So long as they do not bring in >> regular active duty military, in violation of the posse comitatus act. > >And it is pure judicial fiat. Guardsmen on duty are active military. Working for the governor of their respective states, unless you're saying they've been called up by the Army and federalized. There is a long list of actions by Guardsmen by direction of state governors, you need to show how this action is in violation of that precedent if you want to make that point. Reese From fefaglass at mac.com Sun Nov 4 03:57:37 2001 From: fefaglass at mac.com (Glass Age) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:57:37 -0200 Subject: Proteja-se contra assaltos! Message-ID: <200111041147.DAA09932@toad.com> "Veja o que acontece com uma porta de vidro com 22mm de espessura recebendo 63 disparos de armas de fogo em diversos calibres" ( Cenas reais ) http://glassage.com.br/video.mpg Portas e Janelas de vidro que podem salvar a sua vida, já estão sendo fabricadas em São Paulo, vidros finos e em qualquer côr garantem a sua segurança contra armas de fogo reduzindo quando divulgado a quase nada o número de assaltos. www.glassage.com.br * Caso não queira mais receber mensagens clique e preencha no assunto: "Remover" fefaglass at mac.com From fefaglass at mac.com Sun Nov 4 03:57:41 2001 From: fefaglass at mac.com (Glass Age) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:57:41 -0200 Subject: Proteja-se contra assaltos! Message-ID: <200111041157.FAA21618@einstein.ssz.com> "Veja o que acontece com uma porta de vidro com 22mm de espessura recebendo 63 disparos de armas de fogo em diversos calibres" ( Cenas reais ) http://glassage.com.br/video.mpg Portas e Janelas de vidro que podem salvar a sua vida, já estão sendo fabricadas em São Paulo, vidros finos e em qualquer côr garantem a sua segurança contra armas de fogo reduzindo quando divulgado a quase nada o número de assaltos. www.glassage.com.br * Caso não queira mais receber mensagens clique e preencha no assunto: "Remover" fefaglass at mac.com From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 12:09:20 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 10:09:20 -1000 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104094902.02dd6eb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104100738.02d76290@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 02:07 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> Working for the governor of their respective states, unless you're saying >> they've been called up by the Army and federalized. There is a long list > >States are prohibited from having troops. Any(!) troops in the US (be they >military, guard, or militia) ARE responsible to Congress and Congress only >until Congress assigns them to the President (and only the President) as >CinC. States are not prohibited from having a militia, the National Guard is an organized militia, until such time they are federalized, at which point they fall under the Army's Chain of Command. Why do you think all or nearly all states have a National Guard, if it is prohibited as you claim? Reese From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sun Nov 4 10:09:40 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:09:40 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> References: <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE513E4.13360.298D8631@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 8:59, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Senator Kerrey was cerrtainly a mass murderer, and the > guardsmen who stopped her from flying were certainly thugs, > but the reason there are arguably grounds for overlooking > Kerrey's cynical murders and the guardsmen's thuggery ,is > that in the face of this quite real threat even good people > will do things that are hard to distinguish from the things > that bad people do. > > James A. Donald I think "overlooking" is too strong a word, I think it's more reasonable to call it mitigating circimstances. The guardsman needs to have it explained to him (in a way that the lesson will stick) that he does not have the authority to block travellers because he doesn't like their attitude or their political views. I'm not sure what disciplinary action is appropriate, probably a reptimand is good enough as long as it's made VERY clear that any sort of repeat performance will result in sever consequences. George From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 4 10:18:18 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:18:18 -0800 Subject: Reprimands considered useless In-Reply-To: <3BE513E4.13360.298D8631@localhost> Message-ID: <524D8BC7-D150-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 10:09 AM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >> > I think "overlooking" is too strong a word, I think it's more > reasonable to call it mitigating circimstances. The guardsman > needs to have it explained to him (in a way that the lesson will > stick) that he does not have the authority to block travellers > because he doesn't like their attitude or their political views. > I'm not sure what disciplinary action is appropriate, probably > a reptimand is good enough as long as it's made VERY clear that > any sort of repeat performance will result in sever consequences. > The problem lies in the _institutional_ abuse of power. Whether that particular soldier is on duty, or "learns his lesson," is neither here nor there. Some _other_ soldier is probably, as we speak, doing the same thing to some other person reading an Unapproved Book, being a member of an Unapproved Political Party, or displaying Unapproved Religious Ornaments. "Reprimanding" a particular soldier does nothing useful. Left as an exercise is what should be done to curtail such violations of Posse Comitatus and such violations of the First and Fourth Amendments. --Tim May "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 10:30:50 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:30:50 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: Reese wrote: > Would you say greeting every police officer > you meet by calling them "useless pigs" > would be begging for victimhood? I'd say it's protected speech. If the cop can't handle that, can't live up to his oath to uphold the law of the land, than he shouldn't be a cop. S a n d y From gharlanr at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 4 07:34:21 2001 From: gharlanr at bellsouth.net (Glenn Reynolds) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 10:34:21 -0500 Subject: More on Nancy Oden Message-ID: Seems she's got a background of association with ecoterrorism. http://instapundit.blogspot.com/2001_11_04_instapundit_archive.html#6855693 ******* Glenn's above URL says: >NANCY ODEN UPDATE: Turns out there's good reason for Nancy Oden to be >suspected of terrorist links -- ecoterrorist links, that is. See this >item from the Bangor Daily News, pointed out to me by reader Paul >Zrimsek. Oden denied any linkage with the ecoterrorism in question, but >in a very bin Ladenesque "I didn't do it but I approve" kind of way. >Given that ecoterrorism is, in fact, the most prevalent and widespread >form of domestic terrorism, and has continued since 9/11, her presence on >a watch list doesn't seem especially unreasonable in light of heightened >security concerns and fears (though probably wrong) that the anthrax >mailings were masterminded by domestic groups, and her presence on such a >list is likely to be on that basis, and unlikely to have anything to do >with the Green Party's positions on Afghanistan. ******* From 1support at microsoft.com Sun Nov 4 10:37:11 2001 From: 1support at microsoft.com (1support at microsoft.com) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 10:37:11 Subject: Information You Requested from Microsoft.com Message-ID: NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THIS E-MAIL. THIS E-MAIL IS NOT MONITORED. Welcome to Microsoft Online ID secure Internet environment! Below is your membership information. Please keep this confirmation mail as a record of your password. Consider this information confidential and treat accordingly. Your Microsoft Online ID Password is: cypherpunks A Microsoft Online ID provides access to various Microsoft secured programs. Please check the Frequently Asked Questions and/or Help page of the program you are accessing for questions. Sincerely, Microsoft Online ID Administrator From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 10:55:25 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:55:25 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084723.02d50340@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: Reese wrote: > At 10:30 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > ... > >I'd say it's protected speech. If the > >cop can't handle that, can't live up > >to his oath to uphold the law of the > >land, than he shouldn't be a cop. > > Meanwhile, in real life,,, Meanwhile, in real life, Reese will play the role of apologist for bully-boy cops when the "cunt" brings it herself. Of course, in the "real world" some of us don't take it laying down. S a n d y Rapists, ask Reese to be your character witness in your next court appearance. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Nov 4 10:56:14 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 10:56:14 -0800 Subject: Reese's Test for the Discrimination of Pigs From Cops (Re: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > References: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004541.02d649e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011104105614.007f7320@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:24 AM 11/4/01 -1000, Reese wrote: > >Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them >"useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? > No, it would be testing the professionalism of the cop/pig in question. Any cop who reacts to being called "useless pig" is, in fact, one. And should be removed from positions of authority. Problem with Nat'l Guardsthugs (or any MIL) is they don't have the training of a cop. [Professional] Cops know force gradations, psyops, constitutional law and case history. Professional soldiers know shout, shoot. Civil ops, civility, is not their domain. From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Sun Nov 4 11:19:02 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:19:02 PST Subject: Featured Stock Of The Week - Cetalon Corp.!!! Message-ID: <200111041923.TAA04462@s0280.pm0.net> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> NOVEMBER 5, 2001 - THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Dear Investor, We would like to invite you to look at Cetalon Corp. (CETA : OTCBB) Cetalon is a great investment opportunity in the natural vitamins, minerals, and supplements industry. The company has a unique relationship with Sears (S), which allows the company to operate within Sears retail stores and enjoy unique locations on Sears' mainstream sales floors. A small float of approx. 1 million shares will surely drive demand for the company's stock. Read below for the complete profile. +>+>+> FINANCIAL DATA: - Shares Outstanding: 5,500,000 - Float (Est): 1,000,000 - 52 week High: $5.00 - 52 week Low: $0.85 - Company Homepage http://www.cetalon.com - Friday's Closing Price $1.48 per share +>+>+> ABOUT CETALON CORPORATION - (CETA : OTCBB) Cetalon is a "Store within a store" retail and direct marketing company specializing in the sale of natural vitamins, minerals, and supplements as well as health information technologies and home health care products. Cetalon is licensed to operate within Sears retail stores and enjoy unique locations on Sears' mainstream sales floors - which is a first for Sears which normally places licensees around the perimeter of their stores, or in separate locations/buildings entirely. Cetalon operates in 46 Canadian locations in Sears retail stores and have recently opened in 10 California stores under the name Sears Health and Nutrition Centers - five shops are in Southern California and five shops are in Northern California. These will act as prototypes for the Sears U.S. market. Cetalon's business model forecasts a rapid expansion into department stores in the US with products from leading manufacturers plus a full line of specialty formulated products to sell under the Company's private brand. The best-trained and motivated specialists in the industry will provide superior customer service through our partner retailers full line stores, taking advantage of their advertising and logistical support. The Company also has an alliance with Innovative Botanical Solutions, a company with a global reputation for innovative products and superior quality, to supply its private label brand. These factors coupled with Sears' 63 million strong consumer base, with a target market of nearly 50% represented, should bring Sears Health and Nutrition Centers to profitability within a relatively rapid timeframe, as per the following: +>+>+> COST FOCUS * Sears Health & Nutrition Centers has been appointed as the sole Health & Fitness licensee of Sears, Canada & U.S.A. * Sears Corporation will fund all build-outs on behalf of Sears Health & Nutrition Centers * Sears is contracted to sweep each register and close out the daily books of Sears Health & Nutrition Centers. Sears handles all aspects of collection, cash security, credit card processing and accounting control * Sears Health & Nutrition Centers will benefit from low fixed operating expenses, with no fixed minimum. This includes electricity and all utilities. Also corporate support such as (volume discounts, telephone, postage, advertising expenses) can be leveraged to reduce expenses +>+>+> SUMMARY With Sears' 63 million strong customer base and a booming health and nutrition market - look for Cetalon to add stores and increase sales, revenue and shareholder value. This is a company on the move! >>===================================>> DISCLAIMER Wallstreet Universe is an independent electronic publication providing information on selected companies. All statements and expressions are the opinion of Wallstreet Universe and are not meant to be either investment advice or a solicitation or recommendation to buy, sell, or hold securities. Investing in micro-cap securities is highly speculative and carries an extremely high degree of risk. Wallstreet Universe is not a registered investment advisor or a broker dealer. It is possible that an investor's investment may be lost or impaired due to the speculative nature of the companies profiled. This report relies on information provided by the featured Companies and/or third parties. While Wallstreet Universe believes its sources to be reliable, we make no representation or warranty as to the accuracy of the information provided. Readers should not rely solely on the information contained in this publication, but should consult with their own independent tax, business and financial advisors with respect to any investment opportunity, including any contemplated investment in the advertised Company. Factual statements in this publication are made as of the date stated and are subject to change without notice. Wallstreet Universe is not responsible for any claims made by the Company. We have prepared this report, drawing upon a range of public news, the company's website and information from sources in the industry, as well as data and opinions provided by the company. Wallstreet Universe has not independently verified the Company's representations. Any opinions expressed in this report are statements of judgment as of the date of publication. We urge readers to carefully verify all presentations within the report independently. The receipt of this publication shall not create, under any circumstances, any implication that there has been no change in the affairs of the company profiled since the date of review. This advertisement does not provide an analysis of the Company's financial position. Wallstreet Universe was paid up to $2000 for this report by The Street Insider. Furthermore, associates of Wallstreet Universe may have stock positions on profiled companies from time to time. We may profit in the event the shares of the Company profiled by us increase in value. These positions may be liquidated from time to time even after we have made positive comments regarding the Company. The receipt of this information constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions. SAFE HARBOR FOR FORWARD-LOOKING STATEMENTS: Except for historical information contained herein, the statements on this website and newsletter are forward-looking statements that are made pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Reform Act of 1995. Forward-looking statements involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties, which may cause a company's actual results in the future periods to differ materially from forecasted results. These risks and uncertainties include, among other things, product price volatility, product demand, market competition and risk inherent in the companies operations. You can identify these statements by the fact that they do not relate strictly to historical or current facts. They use words such as "anticipate," "estimate," "expect," "project," "intend," "plan," "anticipate," "guess," "think," "hear," "suggest," "believe" and other words and terms of similar meaning in connection with any discussion of future operating or financial performance. >>===================================================>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://inbound.postmastergeneral.com/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.r45.37kh From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 11:19:56 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:19:56 -0800 Subject: GADSDEN Message-ID: C'punks, The Gadsden flag is the only American flag I have any interest in flying. Laissez Faire Books is offering a stylized, anarcho-capitalist (gold on black) version of the Gadsden design on a t-shirt. I'll be picking up mine tomorrow. Check it out: http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=ET8568 If you are interested in the history of the Gadsden flag or in buying one, check out: http://www.interesting.com/gifts/gadsden/ http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-ratt.html http://www.usflag.org/gadsden.html http://www.vexillum.com/ http://www.usahistorystore.com/ http://www.americastore.com/gadsdenflag.html S a n d y From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 13:25:22 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:25:22 -1000 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104100738.02d76290@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 02:41 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> States are not prohibited from having a militia, the National Guard >> is an organized militia, until such time they are federalized, at >> which point they fall under the Army's Chain of Command. > >No, the can't except in cases of invasion. Whatever Jim. Have it your way, a century of precedent means nothing. The text of the Constitution and all the replies to other people were a nice touch, I skipped right over it. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 13:52:19 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:52:19 -1000 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104115129.02d79e70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 03:54 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> Whatever Jim. Have it your way, a century of precedent means nothing. > >I wish.... > >The point that the government is so far outside the Constitution and any >concept of reasonable 'American democracy' should be obvious, it is >usually the reason folks come here to discuss their different perspectives >of how and why, as well as what to do about it. You've yet to show how the airport departure lounge and check-in counter is the proper venue to address this. It isn't. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 14:03:06 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 12:03:06 -1000 Subject: Mopping up (was: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104115908.02d36e40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 08:07 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >just what a misogynistic You stupid prick, what makes you think I am a misogynist? (hint, "misanthropist" is the word you wanted). Reese From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 10:48:20 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:48:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Analogously in Vietnam, the enemy mingled with the populace, > so that even with the best of intentions, US forces wound up > killing a lot of ordinary civilians, a problem made far worse > by the stupid "body count" policy, where young ambitious > officers, like the future Senator Kerrey, were apt to rack up > very large body counts by any means convenient. > > Senator Kerrey was cerrtainly a mass murderer, and the > guardsmen who stopped her from flying were certainly thugs, > but the reason there are arguably grounds for overlooking > Kerrey's cynical murders and the guardsmen's thuggery ,is > that in the face of this quite real threat even good people > will do things that are hard to distinguish from the things > that bad people do. Amazing! Here you make an "argument" that mass-murder is an acceptable behaviour, while you are simultaneously arguing that a political BELIEF is *not*. > --digsig > James A. Donald This is the exact kind of "logic" and "policy" that gets the US attacked in the first place James. Ultimately, the problem isn't this woman's political beliefs - it's YOUR political beliefs. And the fact that the USG both shares them and *lives by them*. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 10:50:21 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:50:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > At 03:10 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > > >Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a > >big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. > > Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them > "useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? I'd say it was a good litmus test as to who should actually be a police officer. Anyone who got perturbed by such a comment has zero business being a law enforcement officer. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 10:52:32 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:52:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > > > At 03:10 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > > > > >Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a > > >big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. > > > > Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them > > "useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? > > I'd say it was a good litmus test as to who should actually be a police > officer. Anyone who got perturbed by such a comment has zero business > being a law enforcement officer. Agreed. As an interesting aside, there is actual case law in New York that would be on point here (although I can't for the life of me find the damn citation. Sandy?). The NY Court of Appeals ruled that it is not possible to "disturb the peace of a police officer". The incident was in fact someone calling a cop a "pig", and their subsequent arrest for "disturbing the peace". -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 10:54:14 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:54:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > At the moment, it's National Guard, there is a long precedent for use > of Nat.Guard troops for civil things. So long as they do not bring in > regular active duty military, in violation of the posse comitatus act. And it is pure judicial fiat. Guardsmen on duty are active military. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 11:03:01 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:03:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084829.02d692c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > At 12:50 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> At 03:10 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > >> > >> >Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a > >> >big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. > >> > >> Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them > >> "useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? > > > >I'd say it was a good litmus test as to who should actually be a police > >officer. Anyone who got perturbed by such a comment has zero business > >being a law enforcement officer. > > I agree. Given the current crop of cops, is it begging for victimhood? No, you don't actually. You DO miss the point. If 'real life' isn't governed by 'principles' then there is nothing but who has the biggest stick. Which happens to be the entire point that 'principles' were developed, to alleviate the problems of 'big sticks'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 11:10:09 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:10:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business Rights and Free Markets Message-ID: Tim (and other C-A-C-L proponents) have opined that a 'business' has the 'right' to refuse service to anyone for any reason. This is clearly contrary to both the concept of 'rights' and 'free market' (and is diametricaly opposed to what C-A-C-L proponents claim(!) to want). Things don't have rights. A business is a thing. It is a mechanism whereby one or more people get from here to there. It is analgous to a bicycle and moving from point A to point B. While the people riding the bike clearly have a right to get from A to B by any mechanism that doesn't interfere with others it is a long slide into insanity to then say the bike has equivalent 'rights'. A business can refuse to serve anyone they desire for any reason, but the market such a business operates in is not(!!!) a free market by any definition that folks like von Mises or Hayek would recognize as such. Now C-A-C-L proponents claim (of which this is just another example of their hypocrisy or ignorance - take your pick [1]) that they want to create a free market that is universal in all human activity. Clearly this isn't possible operating under Tim and his supporters particular brand of 'free' which is nothing more than 'freedom for me, not for thee'. A business has the RESPONSIBILITY to refuse service to anyone which threatens that business' operations. They also have a responsibility to make that reaction as minimaly invasive as possible in all cases, no exceptions. There is no "..., but..." in free market or American democracy. [1] Never ascribe to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 11:36:14 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:36:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: GADSDEN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I prefer the Culpepper Flag, same motif but includes the red and white stripes for the original colonies. On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > C'punks, > > The Gadsden flag is the only American flag I have any interest in flying. > Laissez Faire Books is offering a stylized, anarcho-capitalist (gold on > black) version of the Gadsden design on a t-shirt. I'll be picking up mine > tomorrow. Check it out: > > http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=ET8568 > > If you are interested in the history of the Gadsden flag or in buying one, > check out: > > http://www.interesting.com/gifts/gadsden/ > http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-ratt.html > http://www.usflag.org/gadsden.html > http://www.vexillum.com/ > http://www.usahistorystore.com/ > http://www.americastore.com/gadsdenflag.html -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 11:38:45 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 13:38:45 -0600 Subject: Early American Flags with Snake Motif Message-ID: <3BE59945.9DB7665E@ssz.com> http://www.usflag.org/gadsden.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mv at cdc.org Sun Nov 4 13:43:45 2001 From: mv at cdc.org (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 13:43:45 -0800 Subject: American Schools Need Flattening Too Message-ID: <3BE5B691.169C11BD@cdc.org> So ROTC recruiting uniformed american murders on high school campuses is not disruptive, but a t-shirt is. How about those adverts reminding male fodder to register for the draft? Fly that flag upside down. At 10:06 PM 11/2/01 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: >CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A judge ruled Thursday that a 15-year-old sophomore >cannot form an anarchy club or wear T-shirts opposing the U.S. bombing of >Afghanistan because it would disrupt school. Katie Sierra was suspended >from Sissonville High School for three days for promoting the club. She >was also told she could not wear T-shirts with messages such as: "When I >saw the dead and dying Afghani children on TV, I felt a newly recovered >sense of national security. God Bless America." > >In a complaint filed with her mother, Sierra argued her right to free >speech was being denied. > >Circuit Court Judge James Stucky agreed that free speech is "sacred" but >he found that such rights are "tempered by the limitations that they ... >not disrupt the educational process." > >[Congress shall make NO LAW abridging the freedom of NON-DISRUPTIVE > speech (Guffaw)] > >Sierra said she'll pursue the dispute. "I don't want war. I'm not for >Afghanistan," Sierra said. "I think that what we're doing to them is just >as bad as what they did to us, and I think it needs to be stopped." > >James Withrow, lawyer for the Kanawha County Board of Education, argued >that an anarchy club was inappropriate because students "do not feel that >their school is a safe place anymore." "Anarchy is the antithesis of what >we believe should be in schools," Withrow said. > >Sierra's attorney, Roger Forman, said she is "being punished for >expressing her opinion." ------ All that fresh air, rations getting low... time to sporulate.. From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 4 14:04:48 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:04:48 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE54B00.20796.137F85E@localhost> -- On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > > Analogously in Vietnam, the enemy mingled with the > > populace, so that even with the best of intentions, US > > forces wound up killing a lot of ordinary civilians, a > > problem made far worse by the stupid "body count" policy, > > where young ambitious officers, like the future Senator > > Kerrey, were apt to rack up very large body counts by any > > means convenient. > > > > Senator Kerrey was cerrtainly a mass murderer, and the > > guardsmen who stopped her from flying were certainly > > thugs, but the reason there are arguably grounds for > > overlooking Kerrey's cynical murders and the guardsmen's > > thuggery ,is that in the face of this quite real threat > > even good people will do things that are hard to > > distinguish from the things that bad people do. On 4 Nov 2001, at 12:48, measl at mfn.org wrote: > Amazing! Here you make an "argument" that mass-murder is > an acceptable behaviour, while you are simultaneously > arguing that a political BELIEF is *not*. Not what I said. Did not say a political belief was unacceptable behavior, did not say Senator Kerrey's mass murder was acceptable behavior. What I said is that guerrila warfare and terrorism results in situations where it is hard to distinguish between mass murder and self defence, and hard to distinguish between political repression and routine safety precautions. Senator Kerrey (Democrat Party) can claim, implausibly, that he was defending against communist aggression, rather than inflating his body count in order to secure advancement, and we cannot prove otherwise, though it hardly seems plausible. The guardsmen can plausibly claim they were taking sensible precautions against an undeniably real terrorist threat, rather than repressing someone for their political beliefs. We cannot prove otherwise, and it may well be true. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG OX1kihX7e81AT2+o87mF12Ib1AoeMVVLhFCjdj+h 4qH4f/DXHgRgSv3KNNg+9U0i/mA8MtgpuiXnJIEym From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 4 14:04:48 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:04:48 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE54B00.25737.137F840@localhost> -- On 4 Nov 2001, at 9:14, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Even in James' wildly exaggerated scenario, I see no reason > to stop them from traveling after they had been shown not > to be a threat (as was the case with this woman). Nope, > political BELIEFS are sacrosanct. But you would probably prefer to have people with certain beliefs strip searched and anally and vaginally probed before getting on the same plane with them. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG YzF8TcXui3VpDHQkZLSRd+xNceerkdDKSh1i44Fg 4zetjA7GyUZx/onIFaIsMwr/+dkpW5JTQGQ21fMXX From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 12:07:35 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:07:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104094902.02dd6eb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > Working for the governor of their respective states, unless you're saying > they've been called up by the Army and federalized. There is a long list States are prohibited from having troops. Any(!) troops in the US (be they military, guard, or militia) ARE responsible to Congress and Congress only until Congress assigns them to the President (and only the President) as CinC. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Mqrhoads at aol.com Sun Nov 4 11:08:55 2001 From: Mqrhoads at aol.com (Mqrhoads at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:08:55 EST Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: It is possible that this story happened exactly the way Nancy Oden wrote it up, but I would be very surprised if there is not another side to this story as well. Most National Guard enlisted soldiers have barely heard of the Green Party let alone would know who a Maine party leader was, what she wrote in a local paper, or would care. The National Guard units of Maine, like National Guard units in every other state, are on a very steep learning curve regarding how to manage airport security. It is not a duty that National Guard units routinely trained for before Sept. 11 except for those Guard and reserve units involved in Civil Administration. The National Guard soldiers will make plenty of mistakes, including big ones, along the way. Members of Guard units come from all civilian occupations and it is not impossible that a few might have voted for Green Party candidates in 2000. But to start a myth that every local activist is being targeted by the National Guard for his or her political views is just plain silly. As long as they are not carrying box cutters or pose a threat to other passengers, no one cares if Green Party officers fly to their heart's content from Bangor to Bute. But one wonders if riding a bike would not be more environmentally friendly than those polluting planes. Mark Rhoads U.S. Internet Council, and, for the sake of full disclosure, a former MP in the DC National Guard ******* Forwarded by Anonymous: > > LEADER OF GREEN SPLINTER GROUP FIBS ABOUT AIRPORT > HASSLE > > In an official press release from its Chicago > headquarters, the Greens/Green > Party USA, a small splinter group that opposes > recognition of the Green > Party > of the United States as the electoral voice of the > movement that ran Ralph > Nader for President in 2000, declared that one of its > leaders was stopped > from boarding a flight after a check turned up her > name was on a computer > list because the organization opposes the U.S. bombing > of Afhanistan. The > release said: > Party USA > coordinating committee member, Thursday at Bangor > International Airport > in Bangor Maine, as she attempted to board an American > Airlines flight to > Chicago. > "An official told me that my name had been flagged in > the computer," a > shaken Oden said. "I was targeted because the Green > Party USA opposes > the bombing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan."> > The press release was relayed around the nation as a > first signal of the > reach > of the new draconian Patriot Act. But it turns out > that Nancy Oden was > apparently not barred because of a computer check, but > because she did > not comply with standard screening for weapons. While > who said what is > not clear, it appears that her name was not flagged by > a computer search > of potential terrorists or their supporters, according > to a news report > in the Bangor Daily News on Nov. 3. > > While the undue harassment of airline travelers is to > be condemned, it does > not seem that this incident warrants fears of a major > violation of > Constitutional > guarantees of free speech, as it first appeared. The > group that Nancy Oden > leads is nevertheless using the incident to draw > attention and support to > itself. > One member of the group's National Council urged: > include spokesperson/ > spokespersons. Contact civil liberties organizations > including the National > Lawyers Guild, the ACLU ... Ask organizaitons to > sponsor defense > committee- Seek prominent attorney who may need to > have a license to > practice in Maine- Send releases out every day. Has > Ralph Nader been > contacted? What about Phil Donahue CONTACT TALK SHOWS. > TRY > TO GET POLITICIANS TO SUPPORT, Barbara Lee. > Organizations in > Maine who know Nancy and will back her up.> > > If the incident had taken place as Nancy Oden > described it, it would mean > that other Green activists and leaders of other > anti-war groups would also > be on computer lists and barred from flying, which > reportedly has not been > the case. The exaggeration of her victimization may > only serve to discredit > opposition to the Bush Administration's attack on > civil liberties. > > It may also further isolate the Green Party USA, which > saw a majority of > delegates at its July 20 National Convention leave to > form a new Green > Alliance, which has its first convention in New > Orleans January 18-21. ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 14:10:13 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:10:13 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE54B00.25737.137F840@localhost> Message-ID: Nope. > -----Original Message----- > From: jamesd at echeque.com [mailto:jamesd at echeque.com] > Sent: 04 November, 2001 14:05 > To: jamesd at echeque.com; cypherpunks at minder.net; Sandy Sandfort > Subject: RE: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying > > > -- > On 4 Nov 2001, at 9:14, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > Even in James' wildly exaggerated scenario, I see no reason > > to stop them from traveling after they had been shown not > > to be a threat (as was the case with this woman). Nope, > > political BELIEFS are sacrosanct. > > But you would probably prefer to have people with certain > beliefs strip searched and anally and vaginally probed before > getting on the same plane with them. > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > YzF8TcXui3VpDHQkZLSRd+xNceerkdDKSh1i44Fg > 4zetjA7GyUZx/onIFaIsMwr/+dkpW5JTQGQ21fMXX > From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 14:39:52 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:39:52 -0800 Subject: FW: Damn ! I wish I'd though ot fhis myself Message-ID: C'punks, Friend of mine sent me this. I like the poetic justice of it. S a n d y > A Good Idea! > > All of the rubble from New York ... all the huge blocks of > concrete and steel, the old busted up computers, refrigerators, > hot water heaters, air conditioners, fire trucks, broken glass, > etc., should be shoveled into C130's and C5A's, flown over > Iraq and Afghanistan and dropped from 32,000 feet. > > A Frigidaire can do a heck of a lot of damage from 5 miles up. > With each assault, we can drop pamphlets: > "Greetings, from the 110th floor of the World Trade Center!" > > The next day it would read, "...from the 109th floor..." > > Then the 108th, etc., etc. > > After 110 days of this, I can't imagine there would be much > left standing on the ground. Can't you just see the headlines: > > "WORLD TRADE CENTER STRIKES BACK!" > > What wonderful irony this would be, and think how much money > we wouldn't have to spend on new bombs or missiles! Not to > mention the 100-million tons diverted from the New York City > landfill. From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 12:41:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:41:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104100738.02d76290@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > States are not prohibited from having a militia, the National Guard is an > organized militia, until such time they are federalized, at which point > they fall under the Army's Chain of Command. No, the can't except in cases of invasion. > Why do you think all or nearly all states have a National Guard, if it is > prohibited as you claim? Technically the National Guard is unconstitutional. It does not qualify as the 'militia' and ONLY the army, navy, and militia have been authorized (technically an independent air force is also unconstitutional without an amendment) by the Constitution (or Congress through an amendment) to date. The Constitution & Gun Rights: It's bigger than the 2nd alone This document is an ongoing project where I take comments and observations from others and post their questions and my replies. Some of this material is old and some is new. It is intended to demonstrate that when the Constitution as a whole is applied to sensitive issues it in fact provides clear direction on the limits and character of the relation between the the three arms of the government of the United States; federal, state, and individual. I assume that anyone commenting on this document is giving their explicit permission to include them with my replies unless otherwise noted. I would prefer that all discussion take place on the Cypherpunks public mailing list. I will submit all my responces to submissions to that list. If you don't wish to discuss this issue in a public forum please do not respond to me. I have no interest in private discussion on this topic. This country is going through a crisis of civil liberties and a fundamental loss of faith in the tenets of democracy. It is becoming more fascist (ie public management of private property) on a daily basis. In the near future it could become completely socialist (ie public management of public property and elimination of private property) in the name of the greater good. The belief that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the individual is in direct conflict with both the spirit and words of the Constitution. Legislative, judicial, and executive branch decisions and actions speak to this on a daily basis. One of the most controversial topics is the private ownership of weapons and the duty of the government to regulate the same. The current discussion on both sides is limited solely to the 2nd Amendment. Unfortunately this is a stillborn position because it misses fundamental issues and questions. To address those I have listed each of the relevant sections of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Perusal of these make it clear that the right of the individual to own and bear arms with no interference or regulation is a fundamental right of every American. This right is justified by a long history of abuse by political systems of the individual as well as a continous sequence of physical assaults on the citizenry. It is worth making special note that the Presidential claim to executive privilige regarding the use of military forces without Congressional permission is unconstitutional (see Article II). The Constitution clearly states the President is the commander in chief of the armed forces only after they have been called into action. And only Congress may call them into action unless it can not be conveined. The President of the United States is not in the chain of command of the military forces without specific authorization from Congress. Until such time as that is given only Congress has the authority to direct and organize military activities. This means that the President may direct military forces only until Congress convenes. At that point Congress must decide whether to agree to commit the forces. Amendment 2, 4, & 9 provide in and of themselves sufficient grounds to find any federal involvement in the purchase, possession, or operation of a weapon to be unconstitutional. One of the most specious argumenst in this discussion is that 'the people' in the 2nd Amendment is not to be construed as meaning the individual. However, it is clear from the Constitution itself and other amendments, such as the 4th, that this simply is not so. The term 'the people' means that the decision regarding such issues is to be made at the level of the individual. In other words whether a particular individual agrees to participate is completely voluntary. THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. [ Note that the intent of the Constitution, and by extension those who represent us, is to provide freedom of choice (i.e. liberty) for each individual (i.e. 'ourselves and our posterity'). This means that any claim that 'the people' does not refer to the individual and their right to make individual choices is specious and misdirected. ] Article I Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water; To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years; To provide and maintain a navy; To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces; To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions; [ Note it says 'the militia', not plural and definitely not state oriented since states are prohibited from raising or supporting troops. Note that it specificaly directs Congress and the President to use the Militia for internal issues only. ] To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; [ This says Congress organizes, armes, and disciplines the militia - again nothing to do with the states and no implication of plurality. The only job the states have is appointing officers. One can argue over the wording of the training since it is ambigous. I interpet "..., reserving to the states repesctively, the appointment of the officers, .." as being a single clause and not carrying over to "... authority of training ...". ] No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay. [ This last paragraph is of special importance. It directs the states to provide for their self defence during times of truly imminent danger. There is also the implication of immediate responce. Yet the state can not keep troops or even collect taxes to this end. This also excludes the Militia since it is under federal control and can't be used by the states without federal consent. In other words they are not to base their responce solely on state or federal employees. The implication is that each state is directed to provide for individual firearms ownership. It's also worth noting that if the US is actualy invaded and the federal forces are activated the states are still directed to raise forces independently of the federal forces, and these forces would be under state control and operated in parallel with federal forces. In addition this delegates the states to independant resistance even if the federal authorities surrender. It is a fundamental recognition of the states independence. [1] ] Article II Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment. [ This last paragraph describes how the President takes control of the military. It is only after Congress agrees to release the authority. Normal day to day training and patrol duties are responsible to Congress only. ] Article IV Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence. [ Note this says that federal forces can not be employeed within a state without the explicit permission of the state government during periods of domestic violence. In other words "rioting in the streets" is not a sufficient condition for forced federal involvement through martial law. The state legislature is the prefered authority unless it can't be convened in time. In that case the state governor can make the decision but as soon as the state legislature is convened he's out of the picture. This means that states always have the option of refusing federal assisstance. This means the various forced tax and funds refusal threats of the federal government are unconstitutional. This means states have the option of opting out of any federal gun control regulations. ] THE BILL OF RIGHTS The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution; Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two-thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States; all or any of which articles, when ratified by three-fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the said Constitution, namely: Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. [ This one really speaks for itself once you've understood the rest. They are actualy speaking of *two* seperate entities - the single federal Militia *and* the individual citizen. They are *not* one and the same. ] Amendment III No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. [ Our current society has a problem with what is understood to be 'reasonable'. This is a strong indication that we need to create a new amendment to better describe the interface, expectations, and limits of actions regarding state representatives and the individual. The only other option is to eliminate laws respecting consensual crimes such as individual drug use, abortion, etc. Arguments based on 'community standard' are inherently broken. It implies the community has some homogenious standard, there is certainly no indication of authority to sample the populate with respect to this question. The religious and free speech and press clauses prohibit it. It further prohibits laws and acts respecting law enforcement based on statistical averages, profiles, mass searches, bumper stickers, public statements not inciteing something worse than domestic violence, etc. Note that this *does* give Congress the option of training the militia for operations involving nuclear, biological, or chemical attack for domestic use. (I believe that any such use must not allow weapons for other than personal defence to these federal forces. No tanks, bombs, missiles, etc.) You can't use an individuals beliefs as a basis for law. In that case, with no sample, the only question is would any citizen object to the behaviour? It is obvious the question must be answered in the negative since you have such an example at hand from the community. This effectively eliminates consensual crimes. If an activity does not cause physical harm to a person, their property, or a voluntary public trust it can't be made against the law at the federal level. (I don't believe a coersive public trust can exist under our Constitution. You can't punish a state or throw a citizen in jail because they object to participate in federal programs.) ] Amendment IX The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. [ This one is really short and sweet. If anybody has a right then everybody has the right. There are no womens rights, gay rights, or minority rights; only human rights. This amendment prevents the government from even addressing what a persons rights are by the simple expedient that it prevents the federal or state government from even enumerating what they aren't. In other words unless the authority over some activity is proscribed in the Constitution the question of jurisdiction and decision are the individual states. It also means that the Supreme Court is prevented from using rulings that are of the enumerable type. In other words, simply because there isn't a directive in the Constitution is not sufficient reason to deny the individual the right of expression, or choice of execution. So arguments such as 'assissted suicide" isn't a right because there is no indication in the Constitution are specious and deny recognized fundamental individual rights in the 1st Amendment. So, in the case of gun control if there is a question at the federal level of jurisdiction (ie "What is meant by 'the people'?) the decision goes to the states and their individual constitutions. If it's not covererd in their individual constitutions then individuals in those states may make the decision on an individual basis. The Constitution is designed to fail-safe under questions of federal authority to the states or the individual. If Congress can't provide a delegate entry in the Constitution per the 10 th. it must suggest a constitutional amendment to the states. The current question of gun control has only two outcomes. Either individuals have their right to own guns recognized or the Congress and the state legislatures are required to mold an amendment to clarify the 2nd Amendment. The states can always stop federal aquisition of new authority at this point by simply refusing to put the amendment up for vote. At this point the states have a tacit admission of their supreme authority in such questions. ] Amendment X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. [ This amendment severely limits what the federal level of authority covers. It requires the Congress to provide a delegate, one or more sentences, in the Constition for all laws (and I believe for all suggested bills as well). it further specifies that in questions of dispute the decision goes to the individual states and their republican governments (ie state constitution). If the indvidual states don't regulate the activity it is up to the individual to participate voluntarily. The United States of America is a balkanized collection if independant states who voluntarily give up limited authority to the federal level, they must explicitly agree to this to become a state. ] The above document was submitted to the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer, it has been expanded since that time. As a result I received various replies. My comments on the replies are included below along with quotes from the replies to clarify context. From declan at well.com Sun Nov 4 11:56:57 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:56:57 -0500 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>; from reeza@hawaii.rr.com on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 08:45:05AM -1000 References: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> <8B5A0BBB-D14A-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <20011104145657.A16084@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 08:45:05AM -1000, Reese wrote: > of Nat.Guard troops for civil things. So long as they do not bring in > regular active duty military, in violation of the posse comitatus act. This shows a common but not entirely correct view of the PCA. You may wish to read it for yourself: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1385.html A seperate question is whether the PCA has much meaning anymore; it's just an act of Congress and can be repealed by another. Also the PCA seems to strongly indicate the president can call out the military and for domestic law enforcement without Congress' authorization. -Declan From declan at well.com Sun Nov 4 12:08:59 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 15:08:59 -0500 Subject: FC: Green Party official refused security check, airline says Message-ID: This Bangor Daily News article tells a different story about the incident involving Green Party activist Nancy Oden at a Maine airport last week: http://www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/article.html?ID=44958 The article, by Jeff Tuttle, says: >[Oden] was grounded at Bangor International Airport on Thursday after >reportedly becoming uncooperative when she was targeted for additional >screening... "She was uncooperative during the screening process," said >American Eagle spokesman Kurt Iverson, who added that Oden reportedly >would not stand still when security staff tried to wave a metal-detecting >wand over her. "Obviously if they can't submit to screening, [Federal >Aviation Administration] regulations require that they not be allowed to >board the plane." The Green Party has put out a press release, which contains no evidence to buttress Oden's claim that she was singled out before even arriving at the airport for her political views: http://www.greenparty.org/bangor.txt Previous Politech message and interview with Oden: http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233&mode=thread ******* From Budman21 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:15:40 2001 From: Budman21 at hotmail.com (Ben) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:15:40 Subject: Your Pay Pal Account Message-ID: <200111041915.LAA23270@ecotone.toad.com> Subject: Your PayPal Account RE: Money in your PayPal account Dear friend, That's what you will see if you choose to do this program -- and lots of it!! Seriously!! This is something that I wouldn't normally even look at, except I read an article in the Wall Street Journal on June 16th, 2001 about Pay Pal and x.com and the e-mails just keep coming in for this. That means somebody's making money with it. 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Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From declan at well.com Sun Nov 4 12:24:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:24:50 -0500 Subject: Green Party official refused security check, airline says Message-ID: <20011104152450.A16758@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From piolenc at mozcom.com Sat Nov 3 23:37:28 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 15:37:28 +0800 Subject: MATT DRUDGE // DRUDGE REPORT =?iso-8859-1?Q?2001=AE?= - Delta Force gets bloody nose, intensity scares the crap out of everybody... References: <3BE43CB1.8A264B8A@ssz.com> Message-ID: <3BE4F038.BCA79D47@mozcom.com> O-kay - the learning process begins. In every war we've ever fought, we've learned from our opponents - if the political leadership gave us the opportunity to do it. Now we know the Talibs have small, heavily armed forces staked out NEXT TO obvious fixed objectives. Our next assaults will be in greater force, and on the CURRENT enemy positions instead of those they've abandoned under bombardment. What that means is that the combination of bombardment and ground assault is WORKING, unless you believe that the positions the Talibs are hastily improvising are better than those they were forced to abandon... Marc de Piolenc Jim Choate wrote: > > http://www.drudgereport.com/flash33.htm From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 13:54:43 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:54:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > Whatever Jim. Have it your way, a century of precedent means nothing. I wish.... The point that the government is so far outside the Constitution and any concept of reasonable 'American democracy' should be obvious, it is usually the reason folks come here to discuss their different perspectives of how and why, as well as what to do about it. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 14:04:31 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 16:04:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104115129.02d79e70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > You've yet to show how the airport departure lounge and check-in counter > is the proper venue to address this. It isn't. ??? Why 'where' even relevant? If it doesn't apply all day, every day, every place then it applies no place at no time. As to a century of precedence, if it's unconstitutional precedence then yes, it means nothing. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 18:45:36 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 16:45:36 -1000 Subject: Mopping up (was: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104115908.02d36e40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104163411.00aed590@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 06:29 PM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> You stupid prick, what makes you think I >> am a misogynist? (hint, "misanthropist" >> is the word you wanted). > >No, you are wrong. Misogynist is the word I meant. Suit yourself. >Saying that the "cunt" was asking for it, was a dead giveaway. I said she brought it on herself by acting the way she did, which is redundantly evident. It's also clear you are objecting to the word "cunt" so I used "prick" also. If it makes you (or anyone else) feel better I'll retract both the explicatives but I stand by the original assessment - she was dumb to think she could resist the way she did with impunity. Further, she lied about it in the press release we saw yesterday, Declan's interview revealed that and the statement from Walt Sheasby I posted (and which Declan reposted) confirm that. >(Though you may be a misanthrope as >well. Misanthrope is the better word because I do not hate all women, just the stupid lying ones. You use your choice as a pc weapon. >You certainly are poorly socialized.) Pardon me why I cry myself to sleep. Really. Interested in some property? Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 19:14:53 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 17:14:53 -1000 Subject: Mopping up (was: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104163411.00aed590@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104171309.03d54f00@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 07:04 PM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> If it makes you (or anyone else) feel >> better I'll retract both the explicatives... > >Good boy! We'll socialize you yet. > >(That's "expletives" by the way...) Shit, I hate it when I misspell words I know or ought to know. Reese From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 17:59:03 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 17:59:03 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE513E4.13360.298D8631@localhost> References: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104165039.0327d360@idiom.com> At 10:09 AM 11/04/2001 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >I think "overlooking" is too strong a word, I think it's more >reasonable to call it mitigating circimstances. The guardsman >needs to have it explained to him (in a way that the lesson will >stick) that he does not have the authority to block travellers >because he doesn't like their attitude or their political views. >I'm not sure what disciplinary action is appropriate, probably >a reptimand is good enough as long as it's made VERY clear that >any sort of repeat performance will result in sever consequences. It's one thing for a minimum wage ArentSoBright security guard to be concerned about the people carrying scary computer parts. (Hi, Dave!) That's a problem, but it's a one-off. This is something different - the Guardsman is sworn to uphold the Constitution, yet he's violating someone's rights in what appears to be a pre-planned retailiation for her political beliefs. That's a one-strike firing offense, like a cop getting caught stealing. The appropriate action is for the Guard's probably non-existent equivalent of Police Department Internal Affairs to find out who else was involved in this offense, and what level of pre-planning really happened - was it truly a random thing? If it was political, that's also sufficiently illegal that the Uniform Code of Military Justice requires soldiers to disobey, and failing to do so is another one-strike-you're-out kind of thing. Does the Guardsman only deserve firing, after an appropriate court-martial, or does he also deserve civilian punishment? The separate issue is the airline - the airline employee clearly deserves a reprimand, and whoever told all the other airlines that they don't want this Green Party person flying does as well. They sold her a ticket, and violated their contract to carry her, and the issue of whether it really was safety-related or whether a really egregious breach of contract is a question for a court. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 18:05:49 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 18:05:49 -0800 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > References: <8B5A0BBB-D14A-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104180101.03296190@idiom.com> At 08:45 AM 11/04/2001 -1000, Reese wrote: >At the moment, it's National Guard, there is a long precedent for use >of Nat.Guard troops for civil things. So long as they do not bring in >regular active duty military, in violation of the posse comitatus act. As a recent article on Posse Comitatus pointed out, P.C. is just a law, not a Constitutional requirement, so it can be changed any time the politicians feel like it, and since the War On Drugs militarization, it's basically become a requirement that if the Law Enforcers want military assistance, they have to fill out the right forms in triplicate, but it's just a procedural separation, not a church-and-state kind of thing. >The Patriot Act still amazes me. What were those congresscritters >thinking? They weren't, just reacting blindly by the looks of things. The correct punctuation is "What, were those congresscritters thinking?". Gotta get those commas in the right place... From bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com Sun Nov 4 18:08:23 2001 From: bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocks) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 18:08:23 -0800 Subject: GPRX Jumps to the Lead in Formula 3000 Racing Message-ID: _/_/ RAPID BLAST _/_/ Reaching Over 1 Million Investors Maximum Speed- So You See it First The new Rapid Blast Service provides you with content from the best financial newsletters on the Web in an ultra-light text format that doesn't tax your in-box and gets to you at "break neck" speed, thus maximizing your ability to read, digest and react. This week's profile highlights Grand Prix Sports Inc. (OTC BB: GPRX), the 40 percent owner of Coca-Cola Nordic Racing, a major winner in Formula 3000 Grand Prix racing. The company has BREAKING NEWS just released after-market. This means that for once, you won't be the last to know. BACKGROUND Very few opportunities exist to invest in sports or athletic teams. Formula Motor Sports (Grand Prix Racing) is the worlds most popular sport with an enormous following and sponsorships of their multi- continental race circuit. Formula 3000 grew out of the popularity of Formula 1 racing. The circuit now boasts worldwide interest and elite corporate sponsorship from companies like Coca-Cola. << Breaking News >> ================================================================= Grand Prix Sports Inc. Through Coca-Cola Nordic Racing Wins FIA Formula 3000 Team Championship for 2001 *** News/Assignment Editors & Sports Writers IRVINE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 2, 2001--Grand Prix Sports Inc. (OTC BB:GPRX) announced that it has won both the FIA Formula 3000 International Team Championship and Drivers' Championship for the 2001 season. Coca-Cola Nordic Racing secured the Team Championship with two races remaining in the 2001 season and has set new team records for the most podium appearances and team points of any team since 1985. Appropriately, Coca-Cola Europe Ltd. has extended its title sponsorship for Nordic Racing for an additional two years. Coca-Cola Nordic Racing driver Justin Wilson also won the prestigious Drivers' Championship while teammate Tomas Enge finished in a tie for second place. Wilson became the first-ever British driver to win the Drivers' Title and with a 71 point total, eclipsed the all time single season points record previously held by Formula 1 driver Juan Pablo Montoya. Enge missed the last F3000 race at Monza, Italy after being chosen by the Prost Formula 1 team to replace the injured Luciano Burti for the last three Formula 1 races. Enge successfully competed in the Italian, American and Japanese Grand Prixes to finish the Formula 1 season with Prost. "Obviously, this is the utmost achievement in Formula 3000," stated Team Principal, Derek Mower. "To win both of these titles is a testament to the strength of our race team and the support of sponsors like Coca-Cola and Conoco. Together, we're effectively tapping into the enormous popularity of global motor sports." Grand Prix Sports owns 40% of Coca-Cola Nordic Racing and is the first publicly traded race team in the Formula world, allowing fans of Formula racing, by and large the world's most popular sport, the unique opportunity to "own" part of a race team. The Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 provides a "safe harbor" for forward-looking statements. Certain information included in this news release contains statements that are forward-looking, such as statements related to the future anticipated direction of the industry, plans for future expansion, various business development activities, planned capital expenditures, future funding sources, anticipated sales growth and potential contracts. Such forward-looking information involves important risks and uncertainties that could significantly affect anticipated results in the future and, accordingly, such results may differ from those expressed in any forward-looking statements made by, or on behalf of Grand Prix Sports Inc. These risks and uncertainties include, but are not limited to, those relating to development and expansion activities, dependence on existing management, financing activities, and domestic and global economic conditions. ### [PLEASE FEEL FREE TO REVIEW THIS NEWS RELEASE IN ITS ENTIRETY HERE: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/011102/20247_1.html (Copy and paste link into your browser) FINANCIALS GPRX has 61.5 million shares outstanding with a $46.74 million market cap. The stock generally trades roughly 60,000 shares per day. The high for the year was $2.56 (04/03/2001) and the low was $0.013 (11/08/2000). A British investment bank, the Bauer Partnership, invested $2 million in Nordic Racing after its win at Silverstone, England in July. ABOUT NORDIC RACING Derek Mower is the team principal and founder, and formed Nordic Racing in 1993. Mr. Mower has worked with such names as Fittipaldi and Andretti to name a few. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ If you are interested in having your company and/or products featured to over 1 million investors and consumers, please contact us at info at stockupticks.com _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ DISCLAIMER All statements and expressions are the sole opinions of Rapid Blast and are subject to change without notice. This is neither an offer or a solicitation to buy or sell any securities mentioned. We do not represent or guarantee the accuracy of any statements made herein. Rapid Blast was paid $5,000 cash plus and $7,500 worth of GPRX shares by Agora Capital Partners International, INc. to prepare and dissemin- ate this Rapid Blast and provide other advertising services. This blast may contain forward looking statements relating to the expected capa- bilities of the companies mentioned herein. The reader should do their own due diligence before investing in any securities for suitability. Investing in these securities mentioned is speculative and carries a high degree of risk. --- You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com From noreply at cypherpunks.to Sun Nov 4 09:15:17 2001 From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:15:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: The feebs can read my email, I feel safer already Message-ID: <40a26835e1db5040e395f39b8e4c9ac7@cypherpunks.to> "This Just In --- Internet to be rooted thru central FBR servers. Death of the 4th Amendment predicted. Movie at 11." We have always been at war with Iraniraqistan. -- "Four Arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much less suspicious if they have the cards and can just slash them through card readers." ~ Alan 'Ausweis Macht Frei' Dershowitz For the irony impaired there now follows a FICTIONAL! (repeat FICTIONAL!) example of exactly the sort of thing that will NOT be grounds for a no-knock warrant. > > Freind, > > Compliments of the season. Grace and peace and love > from Almighty God to you. I hope my letter does not > cause you too much embarrassment as I write to you > in good faith, based on the contact address given > to me by a friend who works at the Pakistani embassy > in your country. Please excuse my intrusion into your > private life. > > I have fallen on some hard times. Vindictive government > officials who are bent on dealing with my family have > made it necessary that I seek your assistance on their > behalf. The Swiss government has already frozen all > the accounts of my family in Switzerland, and some > other countries would soon follow to do the same. > I no longer have freedom of movement in my own country. > > My tent blew away and the gr8 s8n gave my camel a severe > case of hemorrhoids. What with the winter coming next > week, can I stay at your place for a while? ];-p > > > yours > > ITMA > > > > > > From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 18:29:13 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:29:13 -0800 Subject: Mopping up (was: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104115908.02d36e40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: Reese wrote: > You stupid prick, what makes you think I > am a misogynist? (hint, "misanthropist" > is the word you wanted). No, you are wrong. Misogynist is the word I meant. Saying that the "cunt" was asking for it, was a dead giveaway. (Though you may be a misanthrope as well. You certainly are poorly socialized.) S a n d y From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 17:00:33 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:00:33 -0600 Subject: DRUDGE REPORT FLASH 2001 - New Yorker story false... Message-ID: <3BE5E4B1.2194076B@ssz.com> http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 19:01:43 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:01:43 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_DRUDGE_REPORT_FLASH_2001=AE_-_New_Yorker_?= story false, says Pentagon In-Reply-To: <3BE5E4B1.2194076B@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104185127.0328f320@idiom.com> At 07:00 PM 11/04/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm Drudge flashes about lots of things. It's nice to get a bit of context besides just the URL, Jim... This is the Pentagon claiming that the story about Delta Force getting shot up during a raid on Afghanistan is incorrect. Seymour Hersh is a journalist who's annoyed the Pentagon for decades, printing stories they don't want printed. This one they're denying before it even hits paper... Also, I don't see any evidence that he "strongly debunked" the story; he flamed it aggressively, but to strongly debunk something you need facts, not just assertions. You also need to have read the story you're debunking, which the spokescritter indicates he hasn't. The phrase " My guess is and my belief is that" also makes it clear that he doesn't know the facts of what happened, though he does indicate that US forces had a helicopter accident and some parachute accidents, and comes close to implying some problems with friendly fire, because he'd rather admit that than admit that The Enemy shot US soldiers. Bunk. =============== PENTAGON: NEW YORKER STORY FALSE, NO SERIOUS INJURIES DURING DELTA RAID Sun Nov 04 2001 15:13:35 ET Joint Chiefs of Staff General Richard Myers strongly debunked a story filed by the NEW YORKER's Seymour Hersh [set for publication on Monday] which claims U.S. Delta members were seriously injured during a raid on Mullah Omar's complex in Afghanistan. ..... =============== From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 17:02:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:02:00 -0600 Subject: A Deliberate Strategy of Disruption (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3BE5E508.EE7C7566@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36356-2001Nov3.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 19:04:07 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:04:07 -0800 Subject: Mopping up (was: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104163411.00aed590@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: Reese wrote: > If it makes you (or anyone else) feel > better I'll retract both the explicatives... Good boy! We'll socialize you yet. (That's "expletives" by the way...) S a n d y From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 17:19:43 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:19:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?Re=3A_CDR=3A_DRUDGE_REPORT_FLASH_2001=AE_-_Ne?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?w_Yorker_story_false=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <3BE5E4B1.2194076B@ssz.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm Um, yeah, right. Amazing how every single thing we have done has been "flawless", how what few casualties we have taken have *all* been from non-taliban causes, how every missing/downed aircraft has been from "dust storms" or other "bad weather"... Does the US really believe that anyone else believes this propaganda bullshit? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 19:20:53 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:20:53 -0800 Subject: A Deliberate Strategy of Disruption (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: <3BE5E508.EE7C7566@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104191249.0329a800@idiom.com> At 07:02 PM 11/04/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36356-2001Nov3.html >-- Very strange - the article headline and subtitle are seriously at odds with the contents of the article. Sounds like the headline editor has much different opinions than Bob Woodward and the primary authors. It's about the 1147 people detained in the anti-terror dragnet. Only 185 of them have problems with their immigration papers. The Washington Post identified 235 of them, and tried to figure out what strategies the Feds are using to pick their targets. The Feds, of course, assert that for except the people being held as material witnesses, all of the detainees violated some law or other. Evidence suggests otherwise, and most of them have not been charged with any crime. Lots of detail. From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 17:24:02 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:24:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > Whatever Jim. Have it your way, a century of precedent means nothing. You may want to acquire (and possibly even *read*), "Government By Judiciary". -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From utopia_alive at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 19:41:26 2001 From: utopia_alive at yahoo.com (super ego) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:41:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is this country about? Freedom of only one kind? Message-ID: <20011105034126.51702.qmail@web14910.mail.yahoo.com> (Ed. Note: Nancy Oden is a top U.S. Green Party official and a member of the party's coordinating committee. An organic farmer, peace activist, and all-around firebrand, she lives in Jonesboro, Maine.) "Just a few weeks ago I had a piece in the Bangor paper. It's on our website, greenparty.org... I submitted it under my name alone. It's a fairly radical piece; that's what I do. I'm a political and environmental activist. "I walked into the Bangor airport. What I saw was National Guard folks all over carrying machine guns... The atmosphere was very tense... This was Thursday... I went over to the American Airlines ticket counter way down at the end. Nobody else was there, except the clerk. I gave him my name. He didn't even ask for photo ID. It was almost like they were expecting me. He put it into the computer. He stayed on the computer a long time, like 10 minutes. "He put an S on the boarding pass, for search. He said, 'You've been picked for having your bag searched.' ... I said to him, 'This wasn't random, was it?' He said, 'No you were in there to be searched, no matter what.' I went over to baggage to put my bags through the X-ray and then went into the boarding area. "There was this National Guard guy there. He yells over at me, so everyone can hear, 'Bring your bags over here.' You know how they are when they're all puffed up with themselves. He said, 'Hurry up,' so I slowed down some more. "I put my bags on the table. The two women employees were standing there. [I tried to help them with a stuck zipper.] He grabbed my left arm, he started yelling in my face, 'Don't you know what happened? Sep. 11, don't you know thousands of people died?' I said, 'You can't do that.' He went to grab my arm, and I said, 'Don't touch me.' I saw an older airline guy shake his head, 'No,' and he backed off. "That insulted his little manhood. He could not force me to listen to his idiot ideas on Sep. 11, whatever it was he wanted to say. So he was angry. I hadn't done anything except pull away from him... I think he was trying to provoke me. They did the wand thing, they were done, and I heard him say real soft, 'Don't let her on the plane,' like he was talking to himself. "Then I go to get on the plane since we're all done and everything, and the American Airlines ticket guy says,' You can't get on the plane.' I say, 'Why not?' ... He says, 'Because this guy says you didn't cooperate with the search.' ... I said, 'Didn't you see him grab my arm?' He said, 'No, your back was to me.' "He said, 'Maybe we can get you on the 4:00 plane, it's the last one today.' I felt, okay, let's put up with this aggravation now and I'll go to Chicago and we'll see what we can do... Then this little guard guy, it wasn't enough to stop me, wasn't done with me. He said, 'Come with me.' I followed very slowly, I sat down for a while. I said I'm carrying these bags; I need a rest... It's called passive resistance. "He went and found the airport police to come and talk with me. He went and got six other National Guard guys and they all approached me. Here are these six untrained, ignorant, don't-know-how-to-deal-with-the-public, machine-gun-armed young guys in their camouflage suits with their military gear hanging off of it. "I looked up and started laughing, 'Is all this for me, guys? What is this about?' There was this big burly guy, he was in front. He said, 'You didn't cooperate with the search.' ... I said what he did was grabbed my arm, and I backed away... He said he only hit your arm. I said even if that's all he did, he's not allowed to do that. He can't hit my arm and demand I listen to him. "They had the airport policeman tell me, 'You're not flying out of this airport today.' ... Of course I had cooperated; why do I care if they search my bags? ... What I didn't like was being singled out because of my political views. They couldn't arrest me because there was no reason for that. They had people who saw there was nothing to arrest me for. They wanted to get back at me somehow because I was not a subservient female, because I questioned their manhood. "I went to the American Airlines guy and said, 'Is this just today?' He said, 'I don't know.' One clerk said, 'You could drive to Boston [five hours away] and see if you can get out of there.' "I never made it out of Bangor. I had to turn around and drive 100 miles back home... The fact that they gave the other airlines my name... They told me they did that... That's incredible." ### Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 17:43:46 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:43:46 -0600 Subject: Government by Judiciary Message-ID: <3BE5EED2.E97F468@ssz.com> I'd never heard of the book before... http://www.anthonyhargis.com/governme.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmself at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 4 19:47:55 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:47:55 -0800 Subject: FW: Damn ! I wish I'd though ot fhis myself In-Reply-To: ; from sandfort@mindspring.com on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 02:39:52PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011104194755.C18425@navel.introspect> on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 02:39:52PM -0800, Sandy Sandfort (sandfort at mindspring.com) wrote: > C'punks, > > Friend of mine sent me this. I like the poetic justice of it. Terminal velocity of dust is pretty low. Reports are that the bulk of the WTC debris are same. There are structural components from the base of the towers, and debris from neigboring buildings, which are more substantial. Frankly, a modicum of HE attached to a guided device is more effective ordinance. There's a poetic sense to this, but not much military practicality. > > S a n d y > > > A Good Idea! > > > > All of the rubble from New York ... all the huge blocks of concrete > > and steel, the old busted up computers, refrigerators, hot water > > heaters, air conditioners, fire trucks, broken glass, etc., should > > be shoveled into C130's and C5A's, flown over Iraq and Afghanistan > > and dropped from 32,000 feet. > > > > A Frigidaire can do a heck of a lot of damage from 5 miles up. With > > each assault, we can drop pamphlets: "Greetings, from the 110th > > floor of the World Trade Center!" > > > > The next day it would read, "...from the 109th floor..." > > > > Then the 108th, etc., etc. > > > > After 110 days of this, I can't imagine there would be much left > > standing on the ground. Can't you just see the headlines: > > > > "WORLD TRADE CENTER STRIKES BACK!" > > > > What wonderful irony this would be, and think how much money we > > wouldn't have to spend on new bombs or missiles! Not to mention the > > 100-million tons diverted from the New York City landfill. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 20:12:13 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 20:12:13 -0800 Subject: American Schools Need Flattening Too In-Reply-To: <3BE5B691.169C11BD@cdc.org> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104192503.03298b50@idiom.com> It's pretty clear that the school district is violating her civil rights to freedom of expression and freedom of association, and that the either judge and school board lawyer doesn't understand either anarchy or anarchism or the Constitution, or that if they do understand them they don't like them, though it's not clear whether the kid understands anarchy or just likes black t-shirts and dislikes war and has a problem with school district arbitrary censorship. On the other hand, the idea that anarchists need an officially-supported club at a government-run school is a bit silly - she and her friends could just as well get together at the local coffee shop, or the mall, or hang out by the Coke machine. It's definitely nice to see parents sticking up for their kid. >At 10:06 PM 11/2/01 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: > >CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A judge ruled Thursday that a 15-year-old > >sophomore cannot form an anarchy club or wear T-shirts opposing the > >U.S. bombing of Afghanistan because it would disrupt school. > > Katie Sierra was suspended from Sissonville High School for > >three days for promoting the club. .... > >Circuit Court Judge James Stucky agreed that free speech is "sacred" > >but he found that such rights are "tempered by the limitations that they ... > >not disrupt the educational process." > >... > >James Withrow, lawyer for the Kanawha County Board of Education, argued > >that an anarchy club was inappropriate because students "do not feel > >that their school is a safe place anymore." "Anarchy is the antithesis of > >what we believe should be in schools," Withrow said. From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 18:30:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 20:30:52 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Appeal for death row inmate says lawyer also had represented victim - November 4, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE5F9DC.141C2A04@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/04/scotus.mickens.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sun Nov 4 20:56:56 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:56:56 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104165039.0327d360@idiom.com> References: <3BE513E4.13360.298D8631@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE5AB98.12482.2BDE1E59@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 17:59, Bill Stewart wrote: > It's one thing for a minimum wage ArentSoBright security guard > to be concerned about the people carrying scary computer parts. > (Hi, Dave!) That's a problem, but it's a one-off. > > This is something different - the Guardsman is sworn to uphold the > Constitution, yet he's violating someone's rights in what > appears to be a pre-planned retailiation for her political beliefs. > That's a one-strike firing offense, like a cop getting caught stealing. Right. I didn't see it this way, I got the impression that she was prevented from flying because she gave the guard attitude (deliberately slowing down when he told her to speed up, etc.) rather than for her politics as such. Still unacceptable behavior, of course, but (to my mind) not nearly as bad. My suggestion that he should be let off with a reprimand should be read in that context. I should add here that none of us know exactly what happened, and it's conceivable that she might have said/done stuff significantly more threatening than what she mentioned, and that keeping her off the flight was actually the right thing to do. Not asserting that this is the case, of course, just pointing out the possibility. > The separate issue is the airline - the airline employee clearly > deserves a reprimand, and whoever told all the other airlines that > they don't want this Green Party person flying does as well. > They sold her a ticket, and violated their contract to carry her, > and the issue of whether it really was safety-related or whether > a really egregious breach of contract is a question for a court. > I'm not sure how egregious is egregious in the context of missing flights. I've been unable to fly when I was supposed to because of weather, mechanical problems, and because the asshole cabs weren't there to pick me up when they were supposed to be. Never get any compensation for it. None of this justifies anything, of course, but the point is that there's always a non-negligible chance that you won't be able to get on the flight you paid for. 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Thank you. ×ð¾´µÄÏÈÉúÃÇ¡¢Å®Ê¿ÃÇ£º ÄúÃǺã¡ ÎÒÃÇÊÇÖйúÒ»¼ÒרҵÉú²ú¸÷ÖÖ¹ÒËøµÄÖÆÔìÉÌ¡£Ä¿Ç°£¬ÎÒÃÇÉú²úµÄ¹ÒËø¾ßÓÐ"ÖÊÓżÛÁ®"µÄÌص㡣ÎÒÃǵIJúÆ·Ö÷ÒªÏúÍùÖж«¡¢ÄÏÃÀ¡¢¶«ÄÏÑÇ¡¢Å·ÖÞÒÔ¼°·ÇÖ޵ȵأ¬²¢Êܵ½µ±µØÈËÃǵÄÈÈÁÒ»¶Ó­¡£ÎÒÃÇ»¹ÄÜ'¸ù¾Ý¿Í»§ÒªÇóµÄÆ·ÅƽøÐÐÉú²ú¡£Ï£ÍûÄúÄܶÔÎÒÃǵIJúÆ·¸ÐÐËȤ£¬²¢»¶Ó­ÄúµÄѯ¼Û¡£ÎÒÃǽ«½ß³ÏΪÄú·þÎñ¡£ Çë²Î¹ÛÎÒÃǵÄÍøÕ¾£ºhttp:/www.china-padlock.com ÁªÏµÈË£ºÖ콨½ø µç»°£º0086-578-3158898 ´«Õ棺0086-578-3157775 Èç¹û´ËÐÅÏ¢¸øÄú´øÀ´Öî¶à²»±ã£¬ÎÒÃǸе½±§Ç¸¡£Ç뽫Æäɾ³ý¡£Ð»Ð»¡£ From declan at well.com Sun Nov 4 18:27:05 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 21:27:05 -0500 Subject: Ian Clarke speaking in Washington DC Monday Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011104212556.00ab1010@mail.well.com> Ian Clarke (architect of Freenet) will be in Washington, DC tomorrow and is giving an informal talk. I'm hosting the gathering, which is tomorrow, Monday, November 5, 2001 at 7 pm ET. 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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 20:06:31 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 22:06:31 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Man arrested with knives, stun gun at O'Hare - November 4, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE61047.3A750DC0@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/04/inv.ohare.arrest/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 20:09:44 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 22:09:44 -0600 Subject: An Intelligence Giant in the Making (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3BE61108.618D00A4@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33340-2001Nov3.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From verba at rol.it Sun Nov 4 13:19:56 2001 From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:19:56 +0100 Subject: Verba Volant del 05-11-01, Message-ID: <1004912396@web2bk.logos.it> Verba Volant del 05-11-01, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com _________________ Quotation of the day: Author - Karl Marx http://www.logos.it/bio/karl_marx.html English - the dominant ideology has always been the ideology of the dominant class Italian - l'ideologia dominante � sempre stata l'ideologia della classe dominante Spanish - la ideolog�a dominante ha sido siempre la de la clase dominante French - l'id�ologie dominante est toujours l'id�ologie de la classe dominante Portuguese - a ideologia dominante foi sempre a da classe dominante Brazilian Portuguese - a ideologia dominante foi sempre a da classe dominante German - die herrschende Ideologie war schon immer die Ideologie der herrschenden Klasse Hungarian - az uralkod� ideol�gia mindig is az uralkod� oszt�ly ideol�gi�ja volt Finnish - hallitseva ideologia on aina ollut hallitsevan luokan ideologia Catalan - la ideologia dominant, sempre ha sigut la ideologia de la classe dominant Croatian - dominantna ideologija je uvijek bila ideologija dominirajuce klase Czech - vl�dnouc� ideologie byla v�dy ideologi� vl�dnouc� tr�dy Dutch - de dominante ideologie is altijd de ideologie geweest van de dominante klasse Emiliano-Romagnolo - e' parir ch'a sgumenda l'� semper stett e parir di quei c'uss nomm sgumandent Furlan - l'ideologie dominant 'e j� simpri stade l'ideologie de classe dominant Latin - ratio praevalens semper ratio classis praevalentis fuit Latvian; Lettish - valdo�a ideologija vienmer ir bijusi valdo�as �kiras ideologija Occitan - l�ideologia que comanda es totjorn estada l�ideologia de la classa que comanda Polish - ideologia panujaca byla zawsze ideologia klasy panujacej Romanian - ideologia dominanta a fost �ntotdeauna ideologia clasei dominante Slovak - vl�dnuca ideol�gia bola v�dy ideol�giou vl�dnucej triedy Venetian - la ideologia dominante la xe senpre stada quela de la classe dominante Sicilian - l'ideologia dominanti av'a statu sempri chidda d' 'a classi dominanti Flemish - de dominante ideologie is altijd de ideologie geweest van de dominante klasse Calabrese - l' ideologia chi� forte � sempri stata l'ideologia da a classi chi� forti Reggiano - l'idea ch'egh cmanda l'� seimprer steda c�la ed qui ch'egh cmanden Ferrarese - l'ideologia dominante l'� sempar stada l'ideologia dla clase dominante Bolognese - l�ideolog� ch�la cmanda l�� s�nper st� l�ideolog� dla cl�s ch�la cmanda _________________ All languages, please click on this link http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=436 _________________ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:" From declan at well.com Sun Nov 4 19:52:25 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:52:25 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?DRUDGE_REPORT_FLASH_2001=AE_-_New_Yorker__story_false=2 C_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?says_Pentagon?= In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104185127.0328f320@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 07:01:43PM -0800 References: <3BE5E4B1.2194076B@ssz.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20011104185127.0328f320@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20011104225224.A26652@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 07:01:43PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: > Also, I don't see any evidence that he "strongly debunked" the story; > he flamed it aggressively, but to strongly debunk something > you need facts, not just assertions. You also need to have read the Right. He claims the report is untrue, but (as Jim really should know but doesn't appear to) that does not equate to a debunking. -Declan From Sales at cheap-mobiles.com Mon Nov 5 00:08:35 2001 From: Sales at cheap-mobiles.com (Sales at cheap-mobiles.com) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 00:08:35 -0800 Subject: NEW Nokia 8310 Mobile Phone 65 Message-ID: <200111050808.AAA24841@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6558 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grocha at neutraldomain.org Mon Nov 5 03:47:01 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 03:47:01 -0800 Subject: Business Rights and Free Markets In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 01:10:09PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20011105034701.W43409@neutraldomain.org> On Sun, Nov 04, at 01:10PM, Jim Choate wrote: | Tim (and other C-A-C-L proponents) have opined that a 'business' has the | 'right' to refuse service to anyone for any reason. This is clearly | contrary to both the concept of 'rights' and 'free market' (and is | diametricaly opposed to what C-A-C-L proponents claim(!) to want). Dear Mr. Choate, Please, oh please, actually read a little bit into that wonderful process known as "the free market" and understand that the very basic notion of the same is free consentual exchange between two parties. If one is not free to deny service based on any grounds (yes, as far as the free market is concerned, one should be well free to deny services on the basis of race, gender, religion, etc...) | Things don't have rights. A business is a thing. It is a mechanism whereby | one or more people get from here to there. It is analgous to a bicycle and | moving from point A to point B. While the people riding the bike clearly | have a right to get from A to B by any mechanism that doesn't interfere | with others it is a long slide into insanity to then say the bike has | equivalent 'rights'. You're wrong again Mr. Choate. | A business can refuse to serve anyone they desire for any reason, but the | market such a business operates in is not(!!!) a free market by any | definition that folks like von Mises or Hayek would recognize as such. Now | C-A-C-L proponents claim (of which this is just another example of their | hypocrisy or ignorance - take your pick [1]) that they want to create a | free market that is universal in all human activity. Clearly this isn't | possible operating under Tim and his supporters particular brand of 'free' | which is nothing more than 'freedom for me, not for thee'. A business has | the RESPONSIBILITY to refuse service to anyone which threatens that | business' operations. They also have a responsibility to make that | reaction as minimaly invasive as possible in all cases, no exceptions. Mr. Choate, please do not use the good names of Mises and Hayek in vain...if you are going to choose to sprout out ideas that you will be attributing to Autrian Economists, please have the decency to understand the works which you are allgedly writting about first. | There is no "..., but..." in free market or American democracy. There are always exceptions...for example, Mises and Hayek did not subscribe to Democracy in the first place...and a free market, as such can only exist when (yes, read the first paragraph again Mr. Choate) consentual exchange occurs. | [1] Never ascribe to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. Never fear Mr. Choate, none of us have ever thought you were malicious. --Gabe -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Mon Nov 5 03:48:52 2001 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:48:52 -0700 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: >The appropriate action is for the Guard's probably non-existent >equivalent of Police Department Internal Affairs to find out Apparently your reasoning has no common points with reality. What is approprate or not is irrelevant. What is relevant that armed thugs immitate bad TV with people that are not paid actors or network employees. Now it becomes apparent why all those reality pig shows - it was just the preparation step. Ridiculous as it may sound, Tim May of Corralitos was right - the only way to pose the right questions and have them answered is Pb poisoning. From mv at cdc.org Mon Nov 5 08:21:56 2001 From: mv at cdc.org (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 08:21:56 -0800 Subject: Freeman Dyson on Martyr Airlines Message-ID: <3BE6BCA4.7463A824@cdc.org> Recalling his boyhood in London, [Freeman] Dyson recounts how during the Blitz he lay in bed rejoicing in the delicious sound of buildings falling down. To the budding physicist and ardent anti-colonialist he then was, the imminent danger to his own person was nothing compared to the joy of hearing the great British Empire audibly crumbling. In one of the more frank commentaries I have read on the attacks anywhere, Dyson tells us that he can easily imagine the state of mind of the young men who so resolutely smashed those planes into the buildings. Almost I could have been one of them myself. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/laweekly/20011101/lo/29656_1.html From mv at cdc.org Mon Nov 5 08:26:36 2001 From: mv at cdc.org (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 08:26:36 -0800 Subject: DEA raid on med marij in Hollywood Message-ID: <3BE6BDBB.5D59E6B1@cdc.org> Thursday November 01 08:00 PM EST The Other War By Michael Simmons LA Weekly Writer Unable to find Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) or dismantle al Qaeda, the Bush administration has attacked an easier target  the 960 mostly AIDS (news - web sites) and cancer patients of the Los Angeles Cannabis Resource Center. Thirty agents from the federal Drug Enforcement Administration raided the West Hollywood center last Thursday. They detained eight patient/staffers for six hours and seized 400 plants, bagged marijuana and brownies, patient and doctors records, computers, and growing equipment. The effect on peoples health will be devastating, said center president Scott Imler, who has epilepsy. I dont understand why America is declaring war on its own. No arrests were made. The center remains open, but the dispensary is closed, forcing members onto the black market to receive their medicine. The basis for the raid is the long-standing state-vs.federal government dispute over who has say over drug laws. In 1996, California voters approved Proposition 215, which gave patients the right to possess medical marijuana. The federal government has refused to recognize the law in California and eight other states and Washington, D.C., which have passed similar medical-marijuana measures. Last May, the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled against the reopening of an Oakland club, a decision cited in last weeks search warrant. The centers leadership has yet to announce its legal strategy, or if it will try to restore its operation, which serves 960 members, 80 percent of whom have AIDS and use marijuana to combat wasting syndrome and the nausea from multiple medications. Another 10 percent have cancer, for which cannabis is a time-honored treatment during chemotherapy. The remainder suffer from assorted ailments, including glaucoma and multiple sclerosis. The center opened in 1996 with the help of the West Hollywood City Council and the L.A. County Sheriffs Department. I stand up in support of what Scott has been doing, Sheriff Lee Baca told the Weekly in 1999. Hes done an excellent job. The West Hollywood City Council held a news conference denouncing the raid. Asked West Hollywood Sheriffs Station Captain Lynda Castro: Wheres the sensitivity level? The centers supporters say the raid points up the folly of Americas drug war, and its lack of compassion. Other countries are setting more progressive examples. Four months ago, Canada became the first country to legalize medical marijuana. The Dutch, whove already decriminalized recreational use, announced this month that cannabis will be available by prescription. And the British are reclassifying pot in their least restrictive class with antidepressants and steroids. While the rest of the world moves steadily into the 21st century, the Bush administration is dragging its knuckles and America back into the Dark Ages, said Imler. A candlelight vigil will be held across the street from the center, on the corner of Santa Monica Boulevard and Gardner Street, at 5 p.m. Tuesday, November 6, the fifth anniversary of the passage of Proposition 215. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/laweekly/20011101/lo/29651_1.html ---- It would be a shame if these feds got cancer. Got Dioxin? From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 5 10:03:49 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:03:49 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: <3BE6D485.91A29AAE@lsil.com> What a shocker - put fascists in all three branches of government and we're seeing fascism practiced in our streets at the first opportunity. Maybe we have nothing better to offer, maybe it's just the best we can do with our atrophied principles. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 5 07:18:36 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:18:36 -0500 Subject: Typical Choatian Incompetence. [RE: WHDH-TV - Channel 7 - Boston - ...] Message-ID: The Choate wrote: > ---------- > From: Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com] > Reply To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 9:21 AM > To: hell at einstein.ssz.com; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: WHDH-TV - Channel 7 - Boston - New England News - FBI > searches for Ryder rental truck carrying suspicious cargo > > http://www.whdh.com/news/local1.shtml > -- > Of course, this URL points to the *latest* local news story. As I write, it concerns a local murderer. While it's good that the Choate no longer includes entire web pages as attachments, this link is useless as it stands. Peter Trei From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 5 10:34:40 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:34:40 -0800 Subject: American Schools Need Flattening Too Message-ID: <3BE6DBC0.3EC641B9@lsil.com> Eric Cordian wrote : > >Students in AmeriKKKan government-run schools have never had much freedom >of speech, since the courts have ruled that all administrators have to do >is mumble something about the "disruption" of the (laugh) "educational >process" and civil rights conveniently evaporate. > Let's see, agreeing by waving the flag is OK but disagreeing is forbidden. Just garden variety fascism. How many kids were suspended for the political speech that is wearing flags? >Still, there's something annoying when a high school student isn't allowed >to publicly question the War in Afghanistan. Contrast this with the >Vietnam War, before the police state had been racheted up to its current >degree of tightness. > Annoying is an weak adjective to describe training our children to accept censorship. They're a bunch of goddamned authoritarian shitheads. People who think that way would be perfect little middle managers in a Hitlerian Germany or the Cold War USSR. They deserve no place here. >Asscruft now wants life sentences for anyone yelling "Anthrax" in a public >place, or sprinkling talcum powder on their friends. "Zero Tolerance" >moves from the classroom to the rest of society. > Is that "cruft" or "crust" or would just plain dingleberry do? Or Himmler? >In other news, we have received credible information from several usually >reliable sources that some unspecified person or group might commit an >unspecified terrorist act against an unspecified target in the near but >unspecified future. We urge everyone to be on their highest alert, and >ignore anything that sounds like screaming children being cluster bombed. > I think that the dynamic in operation here is that maintaining the fear level will : 1) allow the USA PATRIOT machinery implementation to proceed as planned 2) delay legal assaults against the USA PATRIOT act As long as the fear levels are kept high, the "you're either with AMERICA or against it" cry can be used to protect the power grab. The longer the power grab persists the more difficult it will be to dismantle in the future. I'm not quite as convinced as Tim that the country is 100% fucked but we're sure as hell past the halfway point and running at full throttle. Undermining or Suspending All Protections Against Total Reversion Into Overwhelming Tyranny Mike From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 5 10:40:33 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:40:33 -0800 Subject: FW: Damn ! I wish I'd though ot fhis myself Message-ID: <3BE6DD21.918E51C6@lsil.com> "Karsten M. Self" wrote : >on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 02:39:52PM -0800, Sandy Sandfort >(sandfort at mindspring.com) wrote: >> C'punks, >> >> Friend of mine sent me this. I like the poetic justice of it. > >Terminal velocity of dust is pretty low. > >Reports are that the bulk of the WTC debris are same. There are >structural components from the base of the towers, and debris from >neigboring buildings, which are more substantial. > All that dust might give 'em silicosis. >From the news footage it looks to me like Afghanistan is made of dust and rubble - why waste all that fuel? Just bury them in their own wreckage. >Frankly, a modicum of HE attached to a guided device is more effective >ordinance. > >There's a poetic sense to this, but not much military practicality. > Humor - it lightens the mood, makes the days go by quickly. Mike From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Nov 5 12:34:25 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:34:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: More Creeping Public School Fascism Message-ID: <200111052034.fA5KYPv12737@artifact.psychedelic.net> Here's the latest outrage from our country's government-run schools. Not only do school officials presume to stick their noses into what kids do on their own free time, away from school, but they think they can use lie detectors to pry into kids' private lives. Notice the collusion between the pigs and the school administrators. Pigs make lists of people, none of whom have been charged with any crime, and turn them over to school administrators, who have the power to take action with no requirement of fairness or due process. Note that nothing can be done about this unless a parent files a complaint. Kids don't have any rights in this country, except through parental proxy, and apparently all the parents in this town have the school superintendent's balls slapping against their chins. Schools got away with "Zero Tolerance" using a small number of school shootings as a pretense. Now we'll see what they can get away with using their increased FUD powers under the War on Terrorism(tm). These administrators need to be gutted and their heads posted in public view as a warning to others. ----- DUNLAP, Ill. -- One by one, the subjects were led into a room and hooked up to a polygraph machine. The purpose: to determine whether the teen-agers violated Dunlap High School's code of conduct by attending a party where alcohol was consumed. Seven of the 10 students who submitted to the lie detector exams -- all of them football players -- flunked the questioning last month and were barred from competing in the first round of the state playoffs. Some of their parents wept when they learned their children had lied to them. Dunlap High went to extraordinary lengths to get to the bottom of what was otherwise a routine case of teen-agers getting into trouble. School Superintendent Bill Collier said it was the right thing to do to sort the guilty from the innocent: "It may look bad, it may sound bad, but it's the fairest way." The investigation began after police broke up a party Oct. 6. Nobody was arrested, but officers took down the names of everyone present and traced the registration of all cars parked there. Their list of 15 athletes was turned over to school officials. Three students admitted guilt when confronted. But many others claimed that they had left the party as soon as they realized alcohol was present. So school officials proposed the polygraphs. Two students were suspended from the team after refusing to take the test, and seven more were suspended after flunking. Collier pointed out that three students were cleared who might otherwise have been punished. "For these three kids, this worked exactly the way it is supposed to work," he said. Dunlap High went on to lose the Oct. 27 playoff game 28-7. Mike Griffith, a policy analyst for the Education Commission of the States in Denver, said he has never heard of a school using polygraphs in such a way, and he called it an extreme measure. "But in the end," he said, "if the parents don't file a complaint and the school district is satisfied, it's a done deal." Matt Jones, an attorney who represented the students who took the polygraphs and their parents, said a lawsuit is unlikely, but parents may try to pressure the school board into changing its policy regarding parties. The students' names were not released by the school or Jones. Jones said the suspended players -- most of them starters -- had greater concerns than the outcome of the game. "Part of the disappointment is the public scrutiny and having their parents disappointed in them," the lawyer said. "With most of them, it's not about their participation but because they let down their team." Some in this central Illinois town of about 1,000 people 12 miles north Peoria have been openly critical of school officials. "You would think they have better things to do," said Mark Wade, a 1979 Dunlap High graduate. Wade said the drinking policy existed when he was in high school, and athletes and others were sometimes questioned about their weekend activities. He said students sometimes lied, and their answers were accepted; nobody gave them a polygraph. "That wouldn't have washed. The parents wouldn't have stood for it," he said. Collier and Jones said that before each polygraph session, held at the school board's offices, the students and their parents were taken aside. The students were asked to describe their actions that night. Before the examinations began, the parents were asked to leave to eliminate distractions. Afterward, the polygraph examiner went over results with the students and their parents. Collier described the scene as sad, with some parents shedding tears as they realized their children had lied to them and the school. The superintendent said getting the truth was more important than a football playoff game. "I do know kids and adults can't continue to tell lies," he said. "Parents need to do more communicating with their kids on real-life issues and find out what they're doing on weekends." -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From ingo.wies at aral.net Mon Nov 5 04:47:07 2001 From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net) Date: 05 Nov 2001 12:47:07 UT Subject: Offer 2001-11-05 Message-ID: <0000DB02.3BE69855@smtp.aral.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. For removal instructions see bottom of this newsletter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-: Siemens C45 orignal and brandnew!!! 200 pcs DEM 305 Siemens S45 400 pcs DEM 521 Siemens S40 600 pcs DEM 440 Siemens C35 silver edition 600 pcs DEM 195 Nokia 8210 euro spec, 1000 pcs DEM 428 Nokia 3310 original 600 pcs DEM 250 Ericsson T29 original 500 pcs DEM 305 Sony Z7 original 500 pcs DEM 541 Sony J70 original 300 pcs DEM 290 Sony J5 original 200 pcs DEM 255 Motorola P7389 150 pcs DEM 185 Samsung A300 500 pcs DEM 570 Motorola V50 light 500 pcs DEM 397 Ericsson GA628, white box 400 pcs DEM 68 Ericsson A1018 original 120 pcs DEM 87 Motorola V3690 tit light 1000 pcs DEM 375 Alcatel 302 white box unlocked 350 pcs DEM 137 Motorola M3888 white box unlocked 350 pcs DEM 88 Ericsson T68 original 100 pcs DEM 869 PSION Oganizers: Psion Revo Plus 16MB english version 3000 pcs DEM 530 min order 1000 pcs Also 966 pcs ORIGINAL english Nokia 6210 manuals for DEM 2p.p.!!!!!!!! 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If you receive this message through another e-mail address we have no way of removing you from our list unless you provide the original e-mail address contained in the full header of the e-mail message. If this information has been removed by your server(s) we cannot control this and, again, have no way to remove your e-mail address. Simply reply to this message with "REMOVE" in the subject line. We wish to fully comply with your wishes and all applicable state and federal laws. Your cooperation and patience in this matter are very much appreciated. Thank You! =============================================================== From ingo.wies at aral.net Mon Nov 5 04:47:08 2001 From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net) Date: 05 Nov 2001 12:47:08 UT Subject: Offer 2001-11-05 Message-ID: <0000DB02.3BE69856@smtp.aral.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. For removal instructions see bottom of this newsletter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-: Siemens C45 orignal and brandnew!!! 200 pcs DEM 305 Siemens S45 400 pcs DEM 521 Siemens S40 600 pcs DEM 440 Siemens C35 silver edition 600 pcs DEM 195 Nokia 8210 euro spec, 1000 pcs DEM 428 Nokia 3310 original 600 pcs DEM 250 Ericsson T29 original 500 pcs DEM 305 Sony Z7 original 500 pcs DEM 541 Sony J70 original 300 pcs DEM 290 Sony J5 original 200 pcs DEM 255 Motorola P7389 150 pcs DEM 185 Samsung A300 500 pcs DEM 570 Motorola V50 light 500 pcs DEM 397 Ericsson GA628, white box 400 pcs DEM 68 Ericsson A1018 original 120 pcs DEM 87 Motorola V3690 tit light 1000 pcs DEM 375 Alcatel 302 white box unlocked 350 pcs DEM 137 Motorola M3888 white box unlocked 350 pcs DEM 88 Ericsson T68 original 100 pcs DEM 869 PSION Oganizers: Psion Revo Plus 16MB english version 3000 pcs DEM 530 min order 1000 pcs Also 966 pcs ORIGINAL english Nokia 6210 manuals for DEM 2p.p.!!!!!!!! Siemens SL45 car kit comfort 100 pcs DEM 161 Siemens SL45 voice car kit 50 pcs DEM 289 Siemens S35 car kit comfort 250 pcs DEM 161 FUJI Digital Cameras: FUJI Fine Pix 1300 200 pcs DEM 410 FUJI Fine Pix 2300 200 pcs DEM 551 Fuji Fine Pix 2400z 200 pcs DEM 820 Fuji Fine Pix 40i blue or silver 500 pcs DEM 998 Fuji Fine Pix 4700z 100 pcs DEM 1383 Fuji Fine Pix 6800z 100 pcs DEM 1334 Fuji Fine Pix S1 pro 50 pcs DEM 5767 Please ask for prices. FOB Düsseldorf/Germany, subject is to prior sales. Best regards Ingo Wies Aral Mobilfunk Partner KMT GmbH Tel +49 2102 8747-254 Fax +49 2102 8747-269 =============================================================== If you have received this message in error, or wish not to be included on future mailings please forward your e-mail address of which we have sent this message to. If you receive this message through another e-mail address we have no way of removing you from our list unless you provide the original e-mail address contained in the full header of the e-mail message. If this information has been removed by your server(s) we cannot control this and, again, have no way to remove your e-mail address. Simply reply to this message with "REMOVE" in the subject line. We wish to fully comply with your wishes and all applicable state and federal laws. Your cooperation and patience in this matter are very much appreciated. Thank You! =============================================================== From xeni at xeni.net Mon Nov 5 13:05:12 2001 From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:05:12 -0800 Subject: More Creeping Public School Fascism In-Reply-To: <200111052034.fA5KYPv12737@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: > DUNLAP, Ill. -- One by one, the subjects were led into a room and hooked > up to a polygraph machine. URL? --XJ From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Nov 5 13:06:01 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:06:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: More Creeping Public School Fascism In-Reply-To: from "Xeni Jardin" at Nov 05, 2001 01:05:12 PM Message-ID: <200111052106.fA5L61d12815@artifact.psychedelic.net> > URL? --XJ http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-football-polygraphs1105nov05.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnation%2Dheadlines -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From jya at pipeline.com Mon Nov 5 13:17:43 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:17:43 -0800 Subject: *ill, *ill, *ill In-Reply-To: <3BE6D485.91A29AAE@lsil.com> Message-ID: <200111051823.NAA31283@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Seems to me that having people in public places armed with weapons is wonderful. Mostly hand stuff so far, but there were a few heavy MGs around Lower Manhattan for a brief period after D-Day. RPG launchers and backpacks filled with reloads is darned exciting compared to the usually attention getting couture. You see this good stuff in photos of foreign lands but seldom here at home where most of it manufactured but not worn around the neighborhood and at work and play. Well, sure gun shows show piddly fashion ornaments, but not the heavy killers. And air shows of WMDs are widely spaced, the best overseas. More needed at home, mix the warplanes with the airliners, good for protection and exciting for passengers and top guns alike. We get very sexy carrier fighters overhead producing hand pumps of drugged-carzed adorables, and even kids unhooked of Ritalin happily play at Stingering Army copters racing up the Hudson shuttling arm-chair generalas to and from West Point to the day's battleground at the television networks. Militarizing the United States at home finals brings into the open what has been going on in the national security closet since Pearl Harbor, the original world's greatest work of art. Do not indelicately use the F-word to describe this phenom, just dress up and enjoy flaunting your best and meanest attitude. Hate takes less muscle than love and a lot more expensively wasteful and cowardly armaments. *ill, *ill, *ill! It's so 7th Avenue. Not at all fascist, except like a darling *itler couture wind-up-doll. From jya at pipeline.com Mon Nov 5 13:56:21 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:56:21 -0800 Subject: FW: Damn ! I wish I'd though ot fhis myself In-Reply-To: <3BE6DD21.918E51C6@lsil.com> Message-ID: <200111051902.OAA25970@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Now, now, check your prejudice. So far there is no proof the Taliban had much to do with 911, nor bin Laden, nor the so-called 19 attackers. All we have so far is a niagara of news stories, most of them pulp fiction. Whatever investigations eventually turn up it won't be what we are ravenously consuming today, as news, as bombing targets. Most parties around the world are waving their prejudices in lieu of genuine knowledge of what led to the attack, who did, who is still planning more, what will be the weapons, what the guilty parties of offense and defense knew and when they knew it, and what part the frenzy about Condit and Shandra and the presidential election had to do with diverting attention, breeding envy, and numbing critical abilities. I figure a year from now none of the current suspects of offense and defense will be remembered after we are instructed in another way of being perfectly superficially prejudicial. Skin-tight shaved bodied, or their product replacements. From callsonly at yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 14:18:47 2001 From: callsonly at yahoo.com (callsonly at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:18:47 -0800 Subject: Diet Manufacturer Seeks Distributors Message-ID: <200111052218.OAA26618@ecotone.toad.com> Diet Manufacturer seeking Distributors for new Carbohydrate Blocker and Metabolism Booster. No Ma Huang No Caffeine Great Margins! Name Brand 120 Capsules from only $5.00 Serious Inquires call NOW 1-914-650-7283 ask for Art! START Making Money Today! From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 04:32:34 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:32:34 +0200 Subject: Business Rights and Free Markets References: Message-ID: <01a301c165f5$f24c63d0$5300a8c0@marcel> From: "Jim Choate" > A business can refuse to serve anyone they desire for any reason, but the > market such a business operates in is not(!!!) a free market by any > definition that folks like von Mises or Hayek would recognize as such. Plain BS. Please quote one Austrian school economist that agrees with you. > Now > C-A-C-L proponents claim (of which this is just another example of their > hypocrisy or ignorance - take your pick [1]) that they want to create a > free market that is universal in all human activity. Clearly this isn't > possible operating under Tim and his supporters particular brand of 'free' > which is nothing more than 'freedom for me, not for thee'. You're simply insane. You have no right to someone else's products. It's HIS products, and he's free to refuse to sell them to you, or to only want to sell them on HIS terms. Anything else means he's your slave. > A business has > the RESPONSIBILITY to refuse service to anyone which threatens that > business' operations. They also have a responsibility to make that > reaction as minimaly invasive as possible in all cases, no exceptions. More BS. By what contract do they have this responsibility? Mark From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 5 12:09:20 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:09:20 -0500 Subject: DEA raid on med marij in Hollywood Message-ID: > Sampo Syreeni[SMTP:decoy at iki.fi] > > > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > > >Unable to find Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) or dismantle al Qaeda, > >the Bush administration has attacked an easier target  the 960 mostly > >AIDS (news - web sites) and cancer patients of the Los Angeles Cannabis > >Resource Center. [...] > Even if it isn't such a pivotal point when the Rule of Law is concerned, > I'm wondering what kind of insolent, stupid, heartless bastrards these > people are? Even if there was no immediate medical reason for cannabis > use, it shouldn't be such a big deal if people with AIDS or cancer have a > little bit of fun once in a while. I mean fer-crying-out-loud, who on > God's green Earth is going to follow through with it if you set > AIDS/cancer as a precondition to legally getting high? > "A Puritan is someone who is desperately afraid that, somewhere, someone might be having a good time." - H.L. Mencken Peter Trei From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 5 13:44:36 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:44:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business Rights and Free Markets In-Reply-To: <20011105034701.W43409@neutraldomain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Gabriel Rocha wrote: > Please, oh please, actually read a little bit into that > wonderful process known as "the free market" and understand that the > very basic notion of the same is free consentual exchange between > two parties. Exactly, now think about 'free consensual exchange' and Tim's position. They are diametrically oppossed. I'll be sending a further note out this evening...you might try reading the reference (it'll be Hayek). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From freematt at coil.com Mon Nov 5 13:17:00 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:17:00 -0500 Subject: Uncle Sam Wants You...To think what he manipulates you into thinking. Message-ID: Note from Matthew Gaylor: An ongoing interest of mine is the use of propaganda to shape public perceptions. CNN's Capital Gang Bob Novak has a fascinating observation that fewer Americans joined the US military in Sept. 2001 than did in Sept. 2000. It may prove too difficult not getting swept into the tsunami surge of patriotic war fever- But it is vital that we recognize governmental media manipulation when it occurs- And let me tell you it happens often. And Margaret Carlson, the syndicated columnist, whom I seldom agree with, is on target this time with a choice observation on Pat Robertson. Interesting Outrages Via CNN's Capital Gang 11-03-01: >SHIELDS: And now for the "Outrage of the Week." In the days >following the September 11 massacre of civilians, the airwaves and >the newspapers repeatedly told us of military recruitment centers >filled with young Americans eager and ready to join the Army, the >Navy, Air Force and the Marine Corps. Not for the first time, the >press had it wrong. In fact, with the nation under attack and the >country's economy in recession, fewer Americans volunteered to join >the United States military in September of 2001 than did one year >earlier in September 2000 -- Bob Novak. >CARLSON: Yes. Recently, Pat Robertson told viewers, quote, "we have >not yet seen the Lord's judgment on America." I wonder what the Lord >would think of Robertson's Freedom Gold company, partly owned by >Liberia's President Charles Taylor. Besides torturing and gang >raping anyone who criticizes his corrupt regime, Taylor has armed >the Sierra Leone rebels, who in 1999 alone reaped some $75 million >from diamond sales to Osama bin Laden. Robertson's aide told the >"Post's" Colby King that he was just trying to spur economic >activity and spread the gospel. What gospel would that be? Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From wolf at priori.net Mon Nov 5 17:05:03 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:05:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > You ignoramus....'cruel and unusual punishment'. And that's the sticking point, isn't it? Who decides what is "cruel and unusual"? Are "truth drugs" cruel and unusual? Is torture cruel and unusual? What kinds of torture? Is Old Sparky cruel and unusual? Jim, there's a difference between "how it works" and "how it's supposed to work." -MW- From lawyer at visahlb.com Mon Nov 5 17:48:28 2001 From: lawyer at visahlb.com (Lawyer) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:48:28 PST Subject: US VISAS / BUSINESS SEMINAR - 247-0118 Multi-channel number Message-ID: <1412$999219783670864$10$0@exploder4.em5000.com> SUBJECT: US VISAS /BUSINESS SEMINAR Новый Телефон: 247-0118 (Москва) New telephone: 247-0118 (Moscow) Новый многоканальный телефон теперь готов принять звонки всех желающих. Не упустите эту возможность получения ответов на эти вопросы профессионалом в этих областях. Количество мест ограничено. Высокие гарантии в получении профессиональных США виз B, L, H. "Морилак Адвокатская Фирма" США/Флорида Объявление. Г-н Морилак - деловой адвокат по имиграции и бизнесу (профессор делового менеджмента) будет в Москве с понедельника по среду для ответа на вопросы, которые вы можете иметь по созданию бизнеса в США, получению профессиональной визы или инвестиций в недвижимость США. Г-н Морилак проведет семинары во Вторник и Среду (ноябрь 6-7) с 9:00 до 11:00; с 15 до 17:00; с 20:00 до 22:00. Стоимость 45$ на человека. Не упустите эту возможность получения ответов на эти вопросы профессионалом в этих областях. Количество мест ограничено. Высокие гарантии в получении профессиональных виз B, L, H. "Moriliak Law Firm" USA/Florida Announcement. Mr. Morilak a US Immigration and Business lawyer (and Prof of Bus Management) will be in Moscow (Russia) from Monday to Wednesday to answer questions you may have on setting up a business in the US, getting a professional Visa, or Investmenting in US properties. Mr. Morilak will have a seminars Tues and Wed (November 6-7th) from 9:00 to 11:00; 15:00 - 17:00; 20:00 – 22:00. Cost is 45 USD per person. Do not miss this opportunity to get your questions answered by a professional in these area...space is limited. � ------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, please click or copy and paste the following address into your browser: http://em5000.com/unsub.php?client=twisted_solo&listname=visa&email=cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7730 bytes Desc: not available URL: From antonline at gmx.ch Mon Nov 5 09:09:54 2001 From: antonline at gmx.ch (anton.raath) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:09:54 +0100 Subject: DEA raid on med marij in Hollywood In-Reply-To: <3BE6BDBB.5D59E6B1@cdc.org> Message-ID: <000001c1661c$b1cffd40$0100a8c0@mshome.net> :- Unable to find Osama bin Laden or dismantle al Qaeda, :- the Bush administration has attacked an easier target: :- the 960 mostly AIDS and cancer patients of the Los Angeles :- Cannabis Resource Center. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/laweekly/20011101/lo/29651_1.html Which is ironic in the light of findings in the UK: "The legalisation of cannabis for medicinal use has moved a step closer following promising early results from the world's first full commercial trial of the drug." http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiovideo/programmes/panorama/newsid_1 630000/1630948.stm "Tests sanctioned by the government were proving highly successful, and some patients were calling cannabis a 'miracle', the left-liberal weekly said, basing its claim on a British Broadcasting Corporation Panorama documentary." http://news.24.com/News24/Health/0,1113,2-14_1103731,00.html A! ===================================================== anton l. raath internet development & design http://raath.org/ Tel & Fax: (44) 706 113 1674 ===================================================== War is much too serious a matter to be entrusted to the military. ===========>>> Georges Clemenceau <<<== ===================================================== From freematt at coil.com Mon Nov 5 15:15:09 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:15:09 -0500 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? Message-ID: Note from Matthew Gaylor: Today I read two more disturbing stories of America's slip into police statism. The first is about a Illinois public school Nazi using a polygraph to ferret out the off school grounds activities of his students. See: . Dunlap, IL High School Superintendent Bill Collier said it was the right thing to do to sort the guilty from the innocent: "It may look bad, it may sound bad, but it's the fairest way." -- One by one, the subjects were led into a room and hooked up to a polygraph machine. The purpose: to determine whether the teen-agers violated Dunlap High School's code of conduct by attending a party where alcohol was consumed." And I worry what might be the next step in America if polygraphs don't achieve the desired results. The New York Times reports this chilling thought "In many quarters, the Newsweek columnist Jonathan Alter is considered a liberal. Yet there he was last week, raising this question: "In this autumn of anger," he wrote, "even a liberal can find his thoughts turning to . . . torture." He added that he was not necessarily advocating the use of "cattle prods or rubber hoses" on men detained in the investigation into the terrorist attacks. Only, "something to jump-start the stalled investigation of the greatest crime in American history." And the NYT continues: "One week earlier, on CNN's "Crossfire," the conservative commentator Tucker Carlson said: "Torture is bad." But he added: "Keep in mind, some things are worse. And under certain circumstances, it may be the lesser of two evils. Because some evils are pretty evil."". Now obviously giving children polygraphs and torturing terrorist suspects are very different, but what happens when the kids "crimes" are considered so heinous that stiffer measures are required? Considering the US government, public schools and other public institution's insane obsession with the war on drugs it is in my mind a hop, skip and a jump for them to come to the conclusion that torture, (like getting a teen drug pusher to revel his supplier) an acceptable technique. Perhaps it's important to dust off your copy of The Bill of Rights and re-read the 5th amendment which explicitly states that: "No person shall be nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..." See: I for one swore to uphold the US Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic and anyone who tortures suspects is someone I'd consider a traitor and enemy. Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 5 16:57:22 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:57:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: <7a283c92b80c431bb7fcf75856758d6f@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > However, this means that IF you have due process, then a person CAN be > compelled to be a witness against himself, and be deprived of life, > liberty and property. Hence using truth drugs or torture would be > perfectly constitutional if due process is used, according to the Fifth > Amendment. As a supporter of the Constitution you are now obligated to > defend to the death those who would torture prisoners, as long as they > first get a judge's approval. You ignoramus....'cruel and unusual punishment'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 5 17:38:42 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:38:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > Jim, there's a difference between "how it works" and "how it's supposed to > work." No shit, what was your first clue Sherlock? There is a long and strong history as to what is considered 'cruel and unusual', torture and that sort of crap was ruled unavailable long, long, ago. However, if you think about it a moment while positing that such behaviour is found to be allowable then the quesion of the 'United States' becomes moot. You do the math, if you can stop thinking like a victim. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 5 17:44:33 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:44:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets Message-ID: The question has been raised why a business which applies some 'entry cost' to a particular group removes that business from a 'free market'. What does it take to create a 'free market'? Hayeks says 'perfect competition'. What is 'perfect competition'? "According to the generally accepted view, perfect competition presupposes: 1. A homogenous commodity offered and demanded by a large number of relatively small sellers and buyers, none of whom expects to exercise by his actiona perceptible influence on price. 2. Free entry into the market and absence of other restraints on the movement of prices and resources. 3. Complete knowledge of the relevant factors on the part of all participants in the market." Individualism and Economic Order F.A. Hayek ISBN 0-225-32093-6 Chapter V The Meaning of 'Competition' The reality is that Tim's believe that he can refuse to serve a customer because they hold or perhaps practice some action that (while not involving him or his property directly, only his apparently fragile emotional ego) he finds offensive is within the bounds of free market econoimics is just plain crap. Hayek's views on fascism and socialism are well known, and not positive. What Tim proposes is nothing more than fascism at the individual level. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Mon Nov 5 20:17:54 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:17:54 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: <200111060417.fA64Hsb39337@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> Seems those opposed to the coming civil liberties crack down need to start employing some of the very same technology proposed to corral us. For starters how about PC FaceCam to punish sneek and peekers? Seems that if the data base of such a system were programmed to detect entry and descriminate family members or others who should have legit access to your property you could use it to deter their searches.(Probably a good idea to put a good UPS on the PC and FaceCam to thwart power interruptions, though why they would want to risk causing a tell tale time reset to one of you appliances I can't imaginge.) For example, you could hook a compressed air tank to a high frequency whistle via a control valve connected to you PC. Shouldn't be much of a problem reaching damaging or even lethal sound levels and might hard to stop once triggered. (Ever try find which one of your smoke detectors was triggering?) I once connected a buzzer in the center of a large wall-mounted array of flash lamps to an under-the-carpet pressure sensor to form a burgler bugger. When triggered the system would sound the buzzer for about 1/2 second, to attract the eyes of the burgler, and then fire. A few months after install our place was burgled and the thieves fled without taking any items, probably with some permanent retnal damage. Of course you could connect an automated firearm. (Crime Stoppers Note: aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. ks From info at giganetstore.com Mon Nov 5 12:56:43 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:56:43 -0000 Subject: Star Wars Message-ID: <08f7d43562005b1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> "MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU" A giganetstore.com tem o prazer de apresentar, Star Wars- Episódio I- A AMEAÇA FANTASMA - DVD , marcando o início de um novo olhar sobre esta fantástica saga... Faça já a sua encomenda e receba o seu DVD no dia 14 de Novembro! Esta é uma das muitas novidades que temos para si, existem muitas mais na giganetstore.com... Veja aqui! ----- Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5063 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 5 19:12:17 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 21:12:17 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Justice Department can't confirm how many detainees released - November 5, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE75511.EC89F32B@ssz.com> If these guys can't count, should they really be in charge of our country? http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/05/inv.detainee.numbers/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From k-elliott at wiu.edu Mon Nov 5 21:47:07 2001 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 21:47:07 -0800 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104100738.02d76290@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: >At 02:41 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >>On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: >> >>> States are not prohibited from having a militia, the National Guard >>> is an organized militia, until such time they are federalized, at >>> which point they fall under the Army's Chain of Command. >> >>No, the can't except in cases of invasion. Can you not read? " No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of" _without the consent of congress_ Hint- the state's have congresses consent. -- ____________________________________________________________________ "...and so I screamed to the throne of heaven. He sat and listened till at last I fell to my knees exhausted, crying "why have you forsaken us?". Long he sat , then finally spoke- what man hath wrought I shall not break asunder." ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 ____________________________________________________________________ From decoy at iki.fi Mon Nov 5 12:00:41 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:00:41 +0200 (EET) Subject: DEA raid on med marij in Hollywood In-Reply-To: <3BE6BDBB.5D59E6B1@cdc.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >Unable to find Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) or dismantle al Qaeda, >the Bush administration has attacked an easier target  the 960 mostly >AIDS (news - web sites) and cancer patients of the Los Angeles Cannabis >Resource Center. Thank you ever so much for causing me to spray a perfectly good mouthful of Chilean Merlot all over my keyboard. Took me about half an hour to make the piece of crap work again. >The centers leadership has yet to announce its legal strategy, or if it >will try to restore its operation, which serves 960 members, 80 percent >of whom have AIDS and use marijuana to combat wasting syndrome and the >nausea from multiple medications. Another 10 percent have cancer, for >which cannabis is a time-honored treatment during chemotherapy. The >remainder suffer from assorted ailments, including glaucoma and multiple >sclerosis. Even if it isn't such a pivotal point when the Rule of Law is concerned, I'm wondering what kind of insolent, stupid, heartless bastrards these people are? Even if there was no immediate medical reason for cannabis use, it shouldn't be such a big deal if people with AIDS or cancer have a little bit of fun once in a while. I mean fer-crying-out-loud, who on God's green Earth is going to follow through with it if you set AIDS/cancer as a precondition to legally getting high? Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 From jokes at freeall.com Mon Nov 5 22:44:09 2001 From: jokes at freeall.com (Free4all Jokes) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:44:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joke of the Day! From Free4all.com Message-ID: <20011106064409.42918.qmail@web12401.mail.yahoo.com> --------------------------------- --------------------------------- If you do not want to receive this mail every day, please unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to the unsubscribe address. Your unsubscribe address: jokes-unsubscribe-cypherpunks=toad.com at boss.free4all.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume on Yahoo! Careers. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 759 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 5 21:07:51 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:07:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Distributed code (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:51:46 -0800 From: Bill Frantz To: coderpunks at toad.com Subject: RE: Distributed code At 8:14 PM -0800 11/4/01, Tim Ebringer wrote: >You might want to check out Erlang http://www.erlang.org - a programming >language designed to be all about communications and concurrency. >Programs in this language need not even be aware that they're >distributed. It's a functional language, though, so you might be up for >a steep learning curve if you've never used a declarative language >(Miranda, Haskell, Mercury, Prolog, Lisp...) You might also want to check out the E language . It offers distributed computation, encrypted communications, public key based identity, optimistic computation, and event loop concurency. Cheers - Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The principal effect of| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | DMCA/SDMI is to prevent| 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at pwpconsult.com | fair use. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From verba at rol.it Mon Nov 5 14:27:30 2001 From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:27:30 +0100 Subject: Verba Volant del 06-11-01 Message-ID: <1005002851@web2bk.logos.it> Verba Volant del 06-11-01, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com _________________ Quotation of the day: Author - Paul Val�ry http://www.logos.it/bio/paul_valery.html English - let us enrich ourselves with our mutual differences Italian - arricchiamoci delle nostre reciproche differenze Spanish - enriquezc�monos con nuestras mutuas diferencias French - enrichissons-nous de nos mutuelles diff�rences Portuguese - enrique�amo-nos com as nossas diferen�as m�tuas Brazilian Portuguese - enrique�amo-nos com as nossas diferen�as m�tuas German - bereichern wir einander mit unseren gegenseitigen Unterschieden Hungarian - gazdag�tsuk egym�st k�lcs�n�s k�l�nb�zos�geinkkel Finnish - rikastuttakaamme itse�mme kunkin erilaisuudella Catalan - enriquim-nos de les nostres rec�proques difer�ncies Croatian - obogatimo se na�im uzajamnim razlikama Czech - obohacujme se navz�jem t�m, c�m se li��me Dutch - laat onze onderlinge verschillen een verrijking zijn Emiliano-Romagnolo - fasem cumerz dal difirenzi ch'u i son l'on ma ch'eltri Furlan - insiorinsi das nestris diferenzis di scambio Latin - ditescamus mutuis diversitatibus Latvian; Lettish - bagatinasim sevi ar musu kopejam at�kiribam Occitan - enrichem-nos amb� n�stras difer�ncias Polish - wzbogacmy sie naszymi wzajemnymi r�znicami Romanian - sa ne �mbogatim reciproc din diversitatea noastra Slovak - obohacujme sa vz�jomn�mi odli�nostami Venetian - deventemo siori de le nostre difarense Sicilian - arricchemunni d' 'i nostri reciprochi differenzi Flemish - laat onze onderlinge verschillen een verrijking zijn Calabrese - arrichimuni di le nostre recipruche diffirenzi Reggiano - ram�m s� c�ll che al fa m�a cumpagn un cun cl'eter Ferrarese - dvant�n ricch d'il nostar recipruche diversit� Bolognese - f�n in m�d ed dvint�r pi� r�cc c�n �l n�stri difar�nz _________________ All languages, please click on this link http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=437 _________________ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:" From Napster at aol.com Mon Nov 5 20:54:47 2001 From: Napster at aol.com (Napster at aol.com) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 23:54:47 -0500 Subject: Napster of Porn Message-ID: Below is the result of your feedback form. 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If you do not wish to receive further mailings, please click below and enter your email at the bottom of the page. You may then rest-assured that you will never receive another email from us again. http//www.removeyou.com The 21st Century Solution. I.D. # 032950 ####################################################################### From declan at well.com Mon Nov 5 21:09:30 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 00:09:30 -0500 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 05:05:03PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011106000930.A11469@cluebot.com> On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 05:05:03PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > Who decides what is "cruel and unusual"? Well, hell, who decides what "speech" is, or "religion," or a firearm? (Is Politech speech, is Scientology a religion, is a stun gun a firearm?) The answer, of course, is that the courts decide, influenced to some extent by popular opinion and appointments to the federal bench. But arguing that torture (or, perhaps, truth drugs) is not somehow cruel doesn't get you all that far, at least not without the context of what courts have said in the past, if you intend your post to be predictive at all. -Declan From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Mon Nov 5 23:56:09 2001 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 00:56:09 -0700 Subject: enumeration Message-ID: All this talk about "government", "USG", "TLAs" etc is rather unprecise, vague and general. Can we compile a list of 100-200 persons that ARE the US government, maybe then we can examine the issues more scientifically ? 1. George mini-Bush 2. Collin Powel 3. Ashcroft, whatever the fuck's name is. 4. ... ... 200 From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Nov 6 00:57:40 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 00:57:40 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: <200111060857.fA68ve327902@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Seems those opposed to the coming civil liberties crack down need to start employing some of the very same technology proposed to corral us. For starters how about PC FaceCam to punish sneek and peekers? Seems that if the data base of such a system were programmed to detect entry and descriminate family members or others who should have legit access to your property you could use it to deter their searches.(Probably a good idea to put a good UPS on the PC and FaceCam to thwart power interruptions, though why they would want to risk causing a tell tale time reset to one of you appliances I can't imaginge.) For example, you could hook a compressed air tank to a high frequency whistle via a control valve connected to you PC. Shouldn't be much of a problem reaching damaging or even lethal sound levels and might hard to stop once triggered. (Ever try find which one of your smoke detectors was triggering?) Not recommended if you have pets :-) (I once connected a buzzer in the center of a large wall-mounted array of flash lamps to an under-the-carpet pressure sensor to form a burgler bugger. When triggered the system would sound the buzzer for about 1/2 second, to attract the eyes of the burgler, and then fire. A few months after install our place was burgled and the thieves fled without taking any items, probably with some permanent retnal damage.) Of course you could connect an automated firearm to the PC. (Crime Stoppers Note: aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Nov 6 01:03:40 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 01:03:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants In-Reply-To: from "Matthew Gaylor" at Nov 06, 2001 02:41:58 AM Message-ID: <200111060903.fA693eo13288@artifact.psychedelic.net> Matthew Gaylor alerts: > The ACLU needs to strongly condemn Professor Dershowitz's statements and > the best way to do so is by removing him from the Union. ] Professor Dershowitz has always walked a thin line between being a civil libertarian and being a apologist for Israel and Zionism. In all cases that I can remember where there was a conflict between the two, he was the latter. Israel tortures, and what's good for Israel, is apparently also good for the United States. Kind of like circumcision. If you can get everyone doing it, the chances it will be outlawed, or that you will be criticized for doing it, grow remote. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From nobody at dizum.com Mon Nov 5 16:30:04 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 01:30:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? Message-ID: <7a283c92b80c431bb7fcf75856758d6f@dizum.com> > Perhaps it's important to dust off your copy of The Bill of Rights > and re-read the 5th amendment which explicitly states that: > "No person shall be nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be > a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or > property, without due process of law..." > See: However, this means that IF you have due process, then a person CAN be compelled to be a witness against himself, and be deprived of life, liberty and property. Hence using truth drugs or torture would be perfectly constitutional if due process is used, according to the Fifth Amendment. As a supporter of the Constitution you are now obligated to defend to the death those who would torture prisoners, as long as they first get a judge's approval. From contactus at collectiondirectory.com Tue Nov 6 01:38:28 2001 From: contactus at collectiondirectory.com (CollectionDirectory.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 01:38:28 Subject: Attention Collection Agencies and Attorneys Message-ID: <200111060939.fA69d6H11856@ak47.algebra.com> CollectionDirectory.com is pleased to announce our new toll-free number 1-888-454-0944. Now Clients and Prospective Clients can call free of charge to locate Your Collection Agency or Law Firm. Collection Directory.com is also excited to introduce our new Vital Statistics page. http://www.collectiondirectory.com/Search_engine_Stats.htm See how we stack up against the competition in our search engine links. 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Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -Louis Dembitz Brandeis, lawyer, judge, and writer (1856-1941) CJ Parker http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709 http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm "The True Story Of The InterNet" The Xenix ChainSaw Massacre http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/ WebWorld & The Mythical Circle Of Eunuchs http://www.technopagan.org/politics/webworld/ InfoWar: Final Frontier Of The Digital rEvolution http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/ Space Aliens Hide My Drugs http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1913 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vmodu at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 02:52:23 2001 From: vmodu at yahoo.com (vmodu at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 02:52:23 Subject: Investment Opportunites Message-ID: <200111060308.WAA28789@waste.minder.net> Dear Sir, Most respectfully. We write to invite you to the vast investment opportunities open here in Africa and Nigeria in particular. Such opporunities range from Crude oil products and liquified natural gas,gold, iron & steel, fine stones,cocoa,timber, sapphire,emerald,mica,marble butimen and others. These abundant natural resources needs to be highlighted to the World in taking Africa to the Global Economic stream. Africa is now the economic foundation of this age and good investor needs to tap quickly into this prosperity..... Other investment areas are road contructions,building,equipement supplies,banking,insurance,shares in good companies, furnitures,information technology etc... These are opened to be explored as the return/profit on your investment is very high as Nigeria is the 4th largest market in the world. Our focus is to bridge the gap between your investment decision with the the most practicable information for your success. We would appreciate your candid opinion. Partnership arrangement between us is most welcomed. Reply promptly for further details. Honestly yours, VICTOR MODU. Managing Partner From elyn at consect.com Tue Nov 6 00:09:14 2001 From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:09:14 -0500 Subject: enumeration References: Message-ID: <005e01c1669a$5381d960$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com> > All this talk about "government", "USG", "TLAs" etc is rather > unprecise, vague and general. > > Can we compile a list of 100-200 persons that ARE the US government, > maybe then we can examine the issues more scientifically ? > > 1. George mini-Bush > 2. Collin Powel > 3. Ashcroft, whatever the fuck's name is. > 4. ... I don't know how wise it is to put lists together. Several agencies have funny reactions to things like that, and start using terms like "targeting" et al. ;~) E > > ... > 200 > From callsonly at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 03:35:29 2001 From: callsonly at yahoo.com (callsonly at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:35:29 -0800 Subject: Diet Manufacturer Seeks Distributors Message-ID: <200111061135.DAA28617@ecotone.toad.com> Diet Manufacturer seeking Distributors for new Carbohydrate Blocker and Metabolism Booster. No Ma Huang No Caffeine Great Margins! Name Brand 120 Capsules from only $5.00 Serious Inquires call NOW 1-914-650-7283 ask for Art! START Making Money Today! From grocha at neutraldomain.org Tue Nov 6 03:36:35 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:36:35 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 07:44:33PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20011106033635.H43409@neutraldomain.org> On Mon, Nov 05, at 07:44PM, Jim Choate wrote: | What does it take to create a 'free market'? Hayeks says 'perfect | competition'. Here you go using a Good Name(tm) in vain...again. | What is 'perfect competition'? "Perfect Competition" is not an Austrian idea, in fact, it is an idea that has been refuted by many Austrians in the past as it is not characteristic of the real world. | 3. Complete knowledge of the relevant factors on the part of all | participants in the market." "Complete Knowledge" is precisely what Hayek was refuting when he proclaimed the idea of local knowledge, since no one can know at all times what happens all around him, much less the next person. | Individualism and Economic Order | F.A. Hayek | ISBN 0-225-32093-6 | | Chapter V | The Meaning of 'Competition' Did you actually read it? Or did you gather this information off of an Amazon book review blurb? | The reality is that Tim's believe that he can refuse to serve a customer | because they hold or perhaps practice some action that (while not | involving him or his property directly, only his apparently fragile | emotional ego) he finds offensive is within the bounds of free market | econoimics is just plain crap. Tim's refusal to service whoever he wishes is directly related to the free market. By the same token that Tim is free to not service anyone he wishes, so too is anyone who opposes this attitude free to not shop at Tim's shop. | Hayek's views on fascism and socialism are well known, and not positive. | What Tim proposes is nothing more than fascism at the individual level. Where do you get this stuff? Do you make it up as you go along? -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. From stevet at sendon.net Mon Nov 5 19:41:08 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:41:08 +0000 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? References: <7a283c92b80c431bb7fcf75856758d6f@dizum.com> Message-ID: <200111060509.FAA13489@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com): > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > However, this means that IF you have due process, then a person CAN be > > compelled to be a witness against himself, and be deprived of life, > > liberty and property. Hence using truth drugs or torture would be > > perfectly constitutional if due process is used, according to the Fifth > > Amendment. As a supporter of the Constitution you are now obligated to > > defend to the death those who would torture prisoners, as long as they > > first get a judge's approval. > > You ignoramus....'cruel and unusual punishment'. No problem. Wouldn't a judge be the one who decides what cruel and unusual punishment would be? And once there's a precedent... Well, it's easy to decide someone else's fate, eh? Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From stevet at sendon.net Mon Nov 5 19:43:55 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:43:55 +0000 Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops... References: <92d414a5be434858504813600398e7d1@freedom.gmsociety.org> Message-ID: <200111060509.FAA13519@divert.sendon.net> Quoting An Metet (anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org): > Steve squeaks: > > > > Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate." > > > > What could be more obvious? > > Isn't it obvious by now that this is just some trolling > faggot LEO? Should I be flattered or offended? > Just like the other one with the long drivel about how > jail was okay for the "suspects"? > Sounded like Jeff Gorden after a few beers. I think that his name is properly spelled "Gordon". Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 6 05:40:31 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 05:40:31 -0800 Subject: NBC, ABC and CBS sic feds on Replay TV 4000 Message-ID: <3BE7E84F.12B9ACD@sarin.com> Networks Suing Super VCR Associated Press Three major television networks are suing the maker of the first Internet-ready personal digital video recorder, saying the ReplayTV 4000 lets people make and distribute illegal copies of television programs. NBC, ABC and CBS filed a lawsuit Wednesday in federal court in California against Sonicblue, claiming the ReplayTV 4000 would violate their copyrights by allowing users to distribute copies of programs over the Internet. http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,48065,00.html From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 6 05:44:24 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 05:44:24 -0800 Subject: intelligence collection, tools Message-ID: <3BE7E938.B85D3D0@sarin.com> http://www.orgnet.com/hijackers.html From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 6 05:54:44 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 05:54:44 -0800 Subject: network topology and covert networks Message-ID: <3BE7EBA4.9CA0E77E@sarin.com> More from http://www.orgnet.com/tnet.html A covert network must meet three competing goals... 1.Establish efficient communication and information flow within and between many cooperating cells by minimizing path length throughout the network. 2.Limit discovery and monitoring of the network from outsiders by minimizing the number of communication links in the network. 3.Limit damage when a node is discovered or removed from the network by minimizing the number of direct ties each node has. Because of these constraints, covert networks have a different topology than normal social networks. Illegal networks tend to exchange efficiency for secrecy. From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 6 06:01:32 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 06:01:32 -0800 Subject: Dutch Police DoS Stolen Cell Phones With SMS Message-ID: <3BE7ED3C.34BD5F14@sarin.com> Dangerous precedent, eh? http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/171836.html Dutch Police 'Bombard' Stolen Cell Phones With SMS By Andrew Rosenbaum, Special to Newsbytes AMSTERDAM, NETHERLANDS 05 Nov 2001, 9:30 AM CST The Amsterdam police have been using short messaging system (SMS) missives to block the use of stolen cell phones, and while the campaign has been successful, mobile providers are concerned about the cost and bandwidth strain of the campaign. About four months ago, the Amsterdam police began cooperating with the national telecommunications provider, KPN Telekom. When stolen phones are reported, the police asked KPN to use for the phone to locate the telephone number. Then, every three to five minutes, the police sent SMS messages to the telephone saying, "Warning, this is a stolen telephone, using it is against the law  stealing it is a felony." The police send the repeated messages to an average of five phones every day. And, according to a spokesman for the law enforcement agency, the tactic is working. After conducting a three-month experiment with the SMS messaging, police found that illicit telephone theft declined by more than half compared to the average theft for the period. "When the stolen phone is bombarded with tough SMS announcements, it's not such a nice thing to have," says Ellie Florax, a spokeswoman for the Amsterdam Police. Pleased with these results, the Amsterdam police want to continue the program, but KPN is hesitating, according to KPN spokeswoman, Caroline Ubachs. "There are some financial and legal issues that have to be resolved," Ubachs says. First, the spokeswoman explains, KPN has to dedicate a certain amount of staff, computer time and bandwidth to both locating the phone numbers of these phones, and providing them to the police. "That costs a considerable amount," says Ubachs, who declined to say how much. KPN wants all the other mobile phone service providers to participate in the campaign as well. But those that the police have approached so far say they do not have the technology to locate phone numbers based on cell phone IDs. The Ministry of Justice now is working with the other providers to help them gear up for the move. Then there is an unresolved legal issue: it isn't clear, under Dutch law, whether police should be obliged to obtain warrants for these SMS "bombardments." Some Dutch civil libertarians suggest the campaign might be illegal under data protection laws. "It is almost certain that this would be the case in many countries," says Ubachs. Police spokesperson Florax insists that this is "a technicality which can easily be solved," but KPN wants lawyers to study the issue before it decides to continue the campaign. "With this strategy," says Florax, "we believe we can practically eliminate cell phone theft in this city." Reported by Newsbytes.com, http://www.newsbytes.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:11:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:11:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: <200111060509.FAA13489@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Steve Thompson wrote: > No problem. Wouldn't a judge be the one who decides what cruel and unusual > punishment would be? And once there's a precedent... Well, it's easy to > decide someone else's fate, eh? But you miss the point as to the meaning of such a decision... I'll give you a hint...'oath to protect and uphold'...'providing aid and comfort to the enemy'... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:13:14 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:13:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Kevin Elliott wrote: > Can you not read? > > " No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of" > > _without the consent of congress_ > > Hint- the state's have congresses consent. Exactly, now finish reading THE REST OF THE CONSTITUTION. There is one, and only one, way that Congress can do that. People really got to stop taking the Constitution one sentence at a time. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:23:51 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:23:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <20011106033635.H43409@neutraldomain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Gabriel Rocha wrote: > On Mon, Nov 05, at 07:44PM, Jim Choate wrote: > | What does it take to create a 'free market'? Hayeks says 'perfect > | competition'. > > Here you go using a Good Name(tm) in vain...again. No, you just don't want to admit you have no clue what Hayek was talking about... > | What is 'perfect competition'? > > "Perfect Competition" is not an Austrian idea, Where it came from is irrelevant. > in fact, it is an idea that has been refuted by many Austrians in > the past as it is not characteristic of the real world. Hayek refutes it in Chapter 5 himself. Of course it doesn't apply to the real world because you CAN'T create any of the three minimum conditions necessary of a free market. It's why Hayek also introduces the concept of 'imperfect competition'. You didn't read (understand) Hayek, come on, admit it... > | 3. Complete knowledge of the relevant factors on the part of all > | participants in the market." > > "Complete Knowledge" is precisely what Hayek was refuting when he > proclaimed the idea of local knowledge, since no one can know at all > times what happens all around him, much less the next person. But Hayek draws a distinction, which damns your argument because you ignore it, between 'competition' and 'information'. > | The reality is that Tim's believe that he can refuse to serve a customer > | because they hold or perhaps practice some action that (while not > | involving him or his property directly, only his apparently fragile > | emotional ego) he finds offensive is within the bounds of free market > | econoimics is just plain crap. > > Tim's refusal to service whoever he wishes is directly related to > the free market. No, it is related to Tim applying his bigotry. In a free market a seller has a limited number of factors they may consider. Cost to manufacture, cost at sale, difference in those prices and whether the market level is enough to stay in business. It's also worth noting that in regard to 'free market' the 'perfect information' is related to the product and the price in the market, not the seller or buyers personal beliefs or actions outside of the economic exchange. Please provide a quote from Hayek to support your claim of his meaning. Quid pro quo. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:29:33 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:29:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Can a 'free market' exist? Message-ID: No, the human psychology prevents it. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:36:03 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:36:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: What does 'free market' really! mean? Message-ID: Unless you sell hair products, their hair color/style is none of your business. Unless you sell clothes, what they wear is none of your business. Unless they are hungry, what they eat is none of your business. Unless they want to buy a book, what they read is none of your business. Unless they threaten the existance of your business, what they do is none of your business. .... The paradoxical/hypocrical nature of the proponents of C-A-C-L theories is the main sticking point for the theories. A little review will reveal them to be nothing more than 'freedom for me, not for thee'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:38:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:38:48 -0600 Subject: Magnetic Semiconductor Step Toward Quantum Computing Message-ID: <3BE7E7E8.A6E31E6A@ssz.com> http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1106015.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:39:42 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:39:42 -0600 Subject: Database On Terrorism Will Be Available To The Public Message-ID: <3BE7E81E.8D91284C@ssz.com> http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1106012.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:43:18 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:43:18 -0600 Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- UCLA Team Maps How Genes Affect Brain Structure, Intelligence; Dramatic Images Shed Light On Brain Diseases, Personality Differences Message-ID: <3BE7E8F6.71ACC860@ssz.com> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/11/011105073104.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mv at cdc.gov Tue Nov 6 07:46:00 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:46:00 -0800 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? Message-ID: <3BE805B8.10F6B225@cdc.gov> At 12:09 AM 11/6/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 05:05:03PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: >> Who decides what is "cruel and unusual"? > >Well, hell, who decides what "speech" is, or "religion," or a firearm? >(Is Politech speech, is Scientology a religion, is a stun gun a firearm?) Politech is a firearm, Scientology is a stun gun, Firearms are a religion. From troy at nack.net Tue Nov 6 08:00:33 2001 From: troy at nack.net (Troy Davis) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:00:33 -0800 Subject: FC: FAA.gov ran open mail relay, could let people forge FAA email References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011106084248.02b272c0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20011106080033.A10768@drip.tekniq.net> Seems to still relay: 10:15pm troy at mindfuck ~ > telnet 204.108.10.130 25 Trying 204.108.10.130... Connected to 204.108.10.130. Escape character is '^]'. 220-atos.faa.gov Microsoft SMTP MAIL ready at Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:59:42 -0500 Version: 5.5.1877.197.19 220 ESMTP spoken here helo narf 250 atos.faa.gov Hello [216.39.147.166] mail from: root at oz.net 250 root at oz.net....Sender OK rcpt to: joe at aol.com 250 joe at aol.com data 354 Start mail input; end with . narf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulhmerrill at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 08:31:48 2001 From: paulhmerrill at yahoo.com (Paul Merrill) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:31:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: enumeration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011106163148.67229.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Unfortunately, the "newsmakers" have minimal effect in the near term; the beauraucracies involved have inertia to beat the the band. (two examples: 1) Reagan killes the B1, so USAF created the Strategic Program Office, same people, same building, same contracts - when it was revived, renamed again to B1, same people, same building, same contracts. 2) Congress said no mor U2s, so USAF built TR-1s and didn't rename them to the U2 designation until the contract was complete. Same plane.) PHM --- Anonymous wrote: > > All this talk about "government", "USG", "TLAs" etc > is rather > unprecise, vague and general. > > Can we compile a list of 100-200 persons that ARE > the US government, > maybe then we can examine the issues more > scientifically ? > > 1. George mini-Bush > 2. Collin Powel > 3. Ashcroft, whatever the fuck's name is. > 4. ... > > > ... > 200 > > > ===== Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP * PaulMerrill at ACM.Org Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 6 09:19:51 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:19:51 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <20011106033635.H43409@neutraldomain.org> Message-ID: <7CF95F02-D2DA-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 03:36 AM, Gabriel Rocha wrote: > Tim's refusal to service whoever he wishes is directly related to > the free market. By the same token that Tim is free to not service > anyone he wishes, so too is anyone who opposes this attitude free to > not shop at Tim's shop. > > | Hayek's views on fascism and socialism are well known, and not > positive. > | What Tim proposes is nothing more than fascism at the individual > level. > > Where do you get this stuff? Do you make it up as you go along? > In Choate-Prime (aka Choate'), the parallel reality that Choate lives in, Hayek' practices this form of Austrian' economics. In our own reality, where history, physics, math, and economics are all as we know them to be, Choate is lost. In Choate' I hear he is quite well-respected, even on the Cypherpunks' list. When he travels to our reality, though, it is not worth our time trying to understand his communications about his reality. Bluntly, when Choate makes strange claims about math, history, physics, and economics, it's never worth the time to try to correct his many wrong-headed (in our reality) ideas and definitions. --Tim May "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler From jhurtado at kpmg.com Tue Nov 6 06:22:02 2001 From: jhurtado at kpmg.com (Hurtado, Jorge E) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:22:02 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <55CBCAAB439CD311B11300805F9FE652A0EC54@cobogexc02.co.kworld.kpmg.com> It's simple, go to the pc store and ask for a pc-tv, there are any prices and models. -----Original Message----- From: Claudio V. [mailto:claudio.vani at jumpy.it] Sent: viernes, 02 de noviembre de 2001 17:43 Jorge To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: Dear I ask you informations!!! I want buy an tv card for my pc!!! What card i must buy for look tele+ on my pc? Where i found the software for look tele+? I'm sorry for my english!!!! Thanks ******************************************************************************** The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawfull. When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this email are subject to the term and conditions expressed in the governing KPMG client engagement letter. ******************************************************************************** From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 6 09:45:28 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 09:45:28 -0800 Subject: "So this freedom is useless" Message-ID: <3BE821B8.C0F6C025@sarin.com> >From the "they don't get it" department: Brig. Gen. Khieu Sopheak said that although Cambodia's 1993 constitution protects the right to freedom of expression, "this kind of freedom of expression runs counter to the tendency of the international community and the interests of our country. So this freedom is, we can say, useless." What's he repealing his nation's freedom of speech about? T-shirts. http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAZ32FWPTC.html Clearly this cambodian twit needs to be harvested by cambodians. From roharra at earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 10:00:54 2001 From: roharra at earthlink.net (Harrison Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:00:54 Subject: The Secret Message-ID: <200111061800.KAA20888@toad.com> Learn how to make at least $5,000 a week. Discover the secrets of how to live a life full of pleasure, money, and free time! And do not think I am going to charge anything for this information.No! Act today and it is absolutely FREE for you. Its normal cost is $99.95, but for now I am just giving it away! Check my web site to see all the details. It is simple & easy to learn and best of all FREE! Check my web site: www.secrets2success.com/special135680 From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Nov 6 10:07:06 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:07:06 -0800 Subject: More Creeping Public School Fascism Message-ID: <3BE826CA.8FB4A031@lsil.com> Eric Cordian > >Here's the latest outrage from our country's government-run schools. Not >only do school officials presume to stick their noses into what kids do on >their own free time, away from school, but they think they can use lie >detectors to pry into kids' private lives. > >Notice the collusion between the pigs and the school administrators. >Pigs make lists of people, none of whom have been charged with any crime, >and turn them over to school administrators, who have the power to take >action with no requirement of fairness or due process. > They can only do what the parents allow them to do. I would have told the school to go fuck itself silly before I'd let them interrogate my kid. As far as I'm concerned off school time and grounds they have no say whatsoever. >Note that nothing can be done about this unless a parent files a >complaint. Kids don't have any rights in this country, except through >parental proxy, and apparently all the parents in this town have the >school superintendent's balls slapping against their chins. > >Schools got away with "Zero Tolerance" using a small number of school >shootings as a pretense. Now we'll see what they can get away with using >their increased FUD powers under the War on Terrorism(tm). > >These administrators need to be gutted and their heads posted in public >view as a warning to others. > Read about Vlad Tsepesh. In a private conversation with a recalcitrant administrator it's what I would suggest as reading material to be absorbed prior to decision-making... >----- > >DUNLAP, Ill. -- One by one, the subjects were led into a room and hooked >up to a polygraph machine. > >The purpose: to determine whether the teen-agers violated Dunlap High >School's code of conduct by attending a party where alcohol was consumed. > >Seven of the 10 students who submitted to the lie detector exams -- all of >them football players -- flunked the questioning last month and were >barred from competing in the first round of the state playoffs. Some of >their parents wept when they learned their children had lied to them. > >Dunlap High went to extraordinary lengths to get to the bottom of what was >otherwise a routine case of teen-agers getting into trouble. School >Superintendent Bill Collier said it was the right thing to do to sort the >guilty from the innocent: "It may look bad, it may sound bad, but it's the >fairest way." > >The investigation began after police broke up a party Oct. 6. Nobody was >arrested, but officers took down the names of everyone present and traced >the registration of all cars parked there. Their list of 15 athletes was >turned over to school officials. > >Three students admitted guilt when confronted. But many others claimed >that they had left the party as soon as they realized alcohol was present. >So school officials proposed the polygraphs. > >Two students were suspended from the team after refusing to take the test, >and seven more were suspended after flunking. Collier pointed out that >three students were cleared who might otherwise have been punished. > >"For these three kids, this worked exactly the way it is supposed to >work," he said. > >Dunlap High went on to lose the Oct. 27 playoff game 28-7. Mike Griffith, >a policy analyst for the Education Commission of the States in Denver, >said he has never heard of a school using polygraphs in such a way, and he >called it an extreme measure. > >"But in the end," he said, "if the parents don't file a complaint and the >school district is satisfied, it's a done deal." > >Matt Jones, an attorney who represented the students who took the >polygraphs and their parents, said a lawsuit is unlikely, but parents may >try to pressure the school board into changing its policy regarding >parties. The students' names were not released by the school or Jones. > >Jones said the suspended players -- most of them starters -- had greater >concerns than the outcome of the game. "Part of the disappointment is the >public scrutiny and having their parents disappointed in them," the lawyer >said. "With most of them, it's not about their participation but because >they let down their team." > >Some in this central Illinois town of about 1,000 people 12 miles north >Peoria have been openly critical of school officials. "You would think >they have better things to do," said Mark Wade, a 1979 Dunlap High >graduate. Wade said the drinking policy existed when he was in high >school, and athletes and others were sometimes questioned about their >weekend activities. He said students sometimes lied, and their answers >were accepted; nobody gave them a polygraph. "That wouldn't have washed. >The parents wouldn't have stood for it," he said. > >Collier and Jones said that before each polygraph session, held at the >school board's offices, the students and their parents were taken aside. >The students were asked to describe their actions that night. Before the >examinations began, the parents were asked to leave to eliminate >distractions. > >Afterward, the polygraph examiner went over results with the students and >their parents. Collier described the scene as sad, with some parents >shedding tears as they realized their children had lied to them and the >school. > >The superintendent said getting the truth was more important than a >football playoff game. > >"I do know kids and adults can't continue to tell lies," he said. "Parents >need to do more communicating with their kids on real-life issues and find >out what they're doing on weekends." > I actually teach my kids to lie. Whenever some form pops up on their browser they get pretty creative. The other day I overheard them making up stuff to enter : male, 36, from Austin, Texas. Not bad for such little sprouts. When ( not if ) my kids get in trouble over some 1st issue, they will be protected unconditionally and without reserve as to methods. >-- >Eric Michael Cordian 0+ >O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division >"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Nov 6 08:27:11 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:27:11 -0600 Subject: [TSCM-L] *BOOM!* Message-ID: All the civil lib talk regarding sneak and peek is radicalizing fringe groups and sensitizing them to countermeasures. Conversations of checks...vid -- and I strongly suspect booby trap talk. (I have a research interest in groups under surveillance/impression of surveillance.) The only booby trap I recognize is a "water bra." I hope guys doing surreptitious entry under increased surveillance powers are afforded better recognition training. No doubt some of you are important resources as to these matters, and I hope that your expertise is being sought. Below is a good case clip on vid. I disagree with the court's opinion in this instance, but I can't disagree with the risks in covert entry: @ http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ma&vol=sjcslip/8429&i nvol=1 "...Followed to its logical conclusion, the dissent would encourage drug manufacturers to mount hidden video cameras in their facilities so they can capture the moment of truth when the police execute a search warrant and would authorize drug dealers secretly to tape record conversations with suspected undercover officers or with informants in order to protect the dealers' rights against hypothetical police abuse. Numerous other examples exist. The point is an obvious one. Every police encounter would be available for secret recording..." ----- This judge is seriously behind the times. (Pardon the civie-female-hand-wringing. Just worries me.) ~Aimee ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 6 10:55:45 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:55:45 -0800 Subject: Stun Guns a Firearm? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 10:44 AM, Anonymous wrote: >> According to new federal laws, a non-lethal stun gun *is* in fact a >> firearm. Supposedly enacted specifically to keep felons from >> stun-guns, >> it seems geared more towards keeping the populace from self-defence. > > What! Care to elborate a bit more on this? When did this get passed, > and what else was made illegal? Paintball guns? Pellet guns? Rocks? Or > only rocks in a sock? > Tim is only too right -- this country is totally fucked. > As with all firearms laws, things vary widely from state to state (so much for the Second Amendment applying uniformly...it's as if the First Amendment varied from state to state...this will happen in the near future, I predict). In Massachussetts, for example, stun guns are illegal (according to a Web site on MA gun laws I found by typing "firearms "stun guns" " into Google. In California, they are legal, with some restrictions: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12650.htm "ARTICLE 7. STUN GUNS 12650. "Stun gun" as used in this chapter shall include any item, except a taser, used or intended to be used as either an offensive or defensive weapon capable of temporarily immobilizing a person by the infliction of an electrical charge. 12651. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person may purchase, possess, or use a stun gun, subject to the following requirements: (a) No person convicted of a felony or any crime involving an assault under the laws of the United States, of the State of California, or any other state, government, or country or convicted of misuse of a stun gun under Section 244.5, shall purchase, possess, or use stun guns. (b) No person who is addicted to any narcotic drug shall purchase, possess, or use a stun gun. (c) No person shall sell or furnish any stun gun to a minor unless the minor is at least 16 years of age and has the written consent of his or her parent or legal guardian. Violation of this subdivision shall be a public offense punishable by a fifty dollar ($50) fine for the first offense. Any subsequent violation of this subdivision is a misdemeanor. (d) No minor shall possess any stun gun unless the minor is at least 16 years of age and has the written consent of his or her parent or legal guardian. 12652. Each stun gun sold shall contain both of the following: (a) The name of the manufacturer stamped on the stun gun. (b) The serial number applied by the manufacturer. 12653. Unless otherwise specified, any violation of this article is a misdemeanor. 12654. Each stun gun sold in this state shall be accompanied by an instruction booklet. Violation of this section shall be a public offense punishable by a fifty dollar ($50) fine for each weapon sold without the booklet. " I've heard anecdotes from people who were hassled by cops when they wore their stun guns on their belts. Similar to what often happens to people when they openly wear knives, even though open carry is ostensibly preferable in many places to concealment. "Do not anger Happy Fun Court by openly exercising your rights!" Besides varying from state to state, local satrapies often have their own special laws about what their sheeple may own, carry, or use. --Tim May "Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" --Unknown Usenet Poster From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 09:00:32 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:00:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: FC: Correction: FAA.gov *still* runs open mail relay (fwd) Message-ID: Anyone up for a little game of "Warn The Public"? :-) -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 11:30:08 -0500 From: Declan McCullagh To: politech at politechbot.com Subject: FC: Correction: FAA.gov *still* runs open mail relay Previous (incorrect) message: "FAA.gov ran open mail relay, could let people forge FAA email" http://www.politechbot.com/p-02757.html I just verified this too. -Declan ******** From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 09:03:32 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:03:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: <3BE805B8.10F6B225@cdc.gov> Message-ID: > At 12:09 AM 11/6/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 05:05:03PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > >> Who decides what is "cruel and unusual"? > > > >Well, hell, who decides what "speech" is, or "religion," or a firearm? > >(Is Politech speech, is Scientology a religion, is a stun gun a > firearm?) According to new federal laws, a non-lethal stun gun *is* in fact a firearm. Supposedly enacted specifically to keep felons from stun-guns, it seems geared more towards keeping the populace from self-defence. Note also that the latest version of the stun gun, the first truly useful one, can only be sold to law enforcement officers, and not the public. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From piolenc at mozcom.com Mon Nov 5 19:08:16 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 11:08:16 +0800 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? References: Message-ID: <3BE75420.C62EC23@mozcom.com> An even more basic point is "punishment" - for what? These people are SUSPECTS, against whom no criminal act has yet been proven in open court. They are not yet eligible for punishment in any form. Marc de Piolenc Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > > > You ignoramus....'cruel and unusual punishment'. > > And that's the sticking point, isn't it? From jal at abulafia.com Tue Nov 6 12:25:47 2001 From: jal at abulafia.com (Jamie Lawrence) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 12:25:47 -0800 Subject: Bio-war laws are for other states In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106122044.020f3658@10.0.0.2> (Humor ahead) "We are above the law", a senior official states. "Most other nations have noticed that the U.S. defines the rules other states need to play by, but we do not and have not ever tried to give the impression that we will observe those rules." Meanwhile, the negotiations surrounding the torture of suspected innocents continues. http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr011030_1_n.shtml -j From baptista at pccf.net Tue Nov 6 09:46:50 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:46:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: FC: Correction: FAA.gov *still* runs open mail relay (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think it's silly. here we have a government which claims some understanding of the net yet most of their network infrastructure is insecure. and this open smtp relay is just the tip of the iceburg. a few years ago i scanned all military domain name servers for vulnerabilities under the old buggy bind4. A large number of military dns were found to be insecure. i then proceeded to contact these administrator to have them upgrade their servers in order to secure them. a handful did the rest just ignored the warnings. and i doubt much has changed today. silly happy government On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > > Anyone up for a little game of "Warn The Public"? :-) > > -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Tue Nov 6 11:00:04 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:00:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: An Metet Message-ID: dude, you are a Class A asshole. first you accuse someone of being a faggot. thats real nice, and endearing to the collective 'libertarian' standpoint. does his manliness offend you? knowing that he has enough for the both of you sorta makes things bad for you, i know. so buck up, little camper. some day you will even get 'pubes', and the guys in the shower wont laugh at you anymore. oh, then you accuse someone of being LEO. no he isnt. even if he was, he certainly would not last long with this attitude. because he wouldnt take any shit from mealy mouth sumbitches like yourself and his itchy trigger finger would just be shit hot to TCOB, know what i mean? if you had the choice to remove him from the planet... would ya do it? sure... we all know you would. with that in mind... lets get back to the pertinent subject matter, and not be hypocritical about what we think liberty is, ok? gatton From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Nov 6 13:46:39 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:46:39 -0800 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' Message-ID: WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The information that prompted a warning that terrorists might target a major Western bridge has been determined to be "not credible," two federal law enforcement officials tell CNN, and the FBI Tuesday is preparing to say no threat exists. "There just wasn't anything to it," said one official. A second official agreed, and says local law enforcement agencies are about to be notified of that conclusion. [...] >From http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/inv.bridge.threat/index.html Snort. What are the chances that the National Guard remains on patrol at the bridges "in the interest of safety"? From inc at fastmedia.net Mon Nov 5 19:04:51 2001 From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:04:51 +1100 Subject: classified Message-ID: <20011106140451.1b4129ff.inc@fastmedia.net> below is perhaps related to... http://www.google.com/search?q=prescott+bush+nazi * * * Bush restricts presidential records Executive order stuns advocates of open government ASSOCIATED PRESS WASHINGTON, Nov. 1 - President Bush issued an order Thursday night that lets past presidents, beginning with Ronald Reagan, keep some of their White House papers private even after the 12-year wait now required by law. Advocates for government declassification expressed disbelief and said the order would usher in a new era of government secrecy. ABOUT 68,000 pages of Reagan's White House records, including the vice presidential papers from President Bush's father, were supposed to have been opened in January, 12 years after Reagan left office, as provided by law. But the White House delayed the release three times to review constitutional and legal questions. White House counsel Alberto Gonzales defended Bush's executive order Thursday and did not say when or whether the Reagan papers would be opened to the public. Vanderbilt University historian Hugh Graham said the draft was a "real monster" and complained, "They would reverse an act of Congress with an executive order." Bruce Craig, director of the National Coordinating Committee for the Promotion of History, said it was "blatantly unlawful top to bottom." He predicted a quick legal challenge. The issue likely will come up Tuesday at a House Government Reform subcommittee hearing, initially scheduled before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Reagan's records were to have been the first released under the 1978 Presidential Records Act, which followed Watergate and former President Richard Nixon's attempts to hold on to his papers and tape recordings. It made presidential records the property of government, not ex-presidents. KEY ISSUE: EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE Under the act, presidential records are to be released after 12 years, except for those withheld for national security or certain personal reasons specified by law. A former president can still claim executive privilege to prevent the release of certain documents, but the sitting president has the final say. Under Bush's executive order, the sitting president could not override a former president's claim of executive privilege. Those claims of executive privilege, however, could be appealed in court, Gonzales said. "It will not be driven by politics or what looks good. It will be driven by what is allowed under the Constitution," Gonzales said. "Look, we haven't withheld a single document yet. There's been a delay, no question about it, but there has been no decision not to release a document. Let's see how this process works." FEAR OF EMBARRASSMENT Some historians said they suspected that the Bush White House was worried about what the Reagan papers might reveal about officials now working for Bush who also worked for Reagan. Among them are Secretary of State Colin Powell, budget director Mitch Daniels and Chief of Staff Andrew Card. Gonzales said that was not the reason. "There may, in fact, be embarrassing documents," he said, but he added that that would not be considered a legitimate reason to withhold something. Some historians suggested that the White House was using heightened public interest in national security as a screen to clamp down on the release of presidential papers. Craig said the Bush White House might be worried that the war on terrorism could generate documents it would rather not see exposed down the road. "Everybody is in agreement that materials that can be used by terrorists to threaten national security should be closed up," Craig said. "There already are existing laws and exemptions that keep that kind of stuff closed up. "This is about confidential information - communication between a president and top people - that they would simply prefer not to be released to the public." From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Nov 6 14:11:07 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:11:07 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <7CF95F02-D2DA-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: Tim wrote: > Bluntly, when Choate makes strange claims > about math, history, physics, and > economics, it's never worth the time to > try to correct his many wrong-headed (in > our reality) ideas and definitions. And the real pisser is that he's also useless as a reliable, 180-degrees-out-of-phase, reverse indicator. Apparently, Choate' (aka, Inchoate reality) shares just enough commonality with the real world that he occasionally (albeit, rarely) gets something right. (See my previous comment about blind squirrels and acorns.) S a n d y _____________________________________________________________ If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority? W W \*\ /*/ The Road Kill Group |*| |*| /*////|\\\\*\ |\- (|||||||||||||\((x)\ -======-------------||---:> (|||||||||||||/((x)/ \*\\\\|////*/ |/- |*| |*| /*/ \*\ M M From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Nov 6 14:36:24 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:36:24 -0800 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' Message-ID: <3BE865E8.108350D5@lsil.com> "A. Melon" wrote : > >WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The information that prompted a warning that >terrorists might target a major Western bridge has been determined to be >"not credible," two federal law enforcement officials tell CNN, and the >FBI Tuesday is preparing to say no threat exists. > >"There just wasn't anything to it," said one official. > >A second official agreed, and says local law enforcement agencies are >about to be notified of that conclusion. > >[...] > >>From http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/inv.bridge.threat/index.html > >Snort. What are the chances that the National Guard remains on patrol at >the bridges "in the interest of safety"? > Like it mattered at all that they were there? Except for the superficial effect of comforting the poor scared sheep I didn't see anything effective, I didn't see anyone searching trucks or opening car trunks. Form over function. Same as airport security. Psyops. Like the warnings to keep people off balance. Should we start a pool to see who can guess when ashcruft will put everyone 'on highest alert' next? It'll probably line up with an ACLU attack on the USAmaPATriarchalRIOT act. Only a commie traitor could object to le power grabs at a time when alerts are clearly critical to the survival of the entire nation and its way of life! From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Nov 6 14:47:14 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:47:14 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets Message-ID: <3BE86872.9FDE34F9@lsil.com> "Sandy Sandfort" wrote : >Tim wrote: > >> Bluntly, when Choate makes strange claims >> about math, history, physics, and >> economics, it's never worth the time to >> try to correct his many wrong-headed (in >> our reality) ideas and definitions. > >And the real pisser is that he's also useless as a reliable, >180-degrees-out-of-phase, reverse indicator. Apparently, Choate' (aka, >Inchoate reality) shares just enough commonality with the real world that he >occasionally (albeit, rarely) gets something right. (See my previous >comment about blind squirrels and acorns.) > Would that be the one where overachieving acorns transcend their humble station and aggressively hunt down blind squirrels in order to consummate their fate and achieve oneness with the cosmos? Lucky squirrels. > > S a n d y > Mike From stevet at sendon.net Tue Nov 6 06:50:00 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:50:00 +0000 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? References: <200111060509.FAA13489@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: <200111061526.PAA04255@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com): > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Steve Thompson wrote: > > > No problem. Wouldn't a judge be the one who decides what cruel and unusual > > punishment would be? And once there's a precedent... Well, it's easy to > > decide someone else's fate, eh? > > But you miss the point as to the meaning of such a decision... > > I'll give you a hint...'oath to protect and uphold'...'providing aid and > comfort to the enemy'... Since I'm ignorant of the finer points of American Law, you'll have to be less vague if you wish me to see the point which you're presenting. Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Tue Nov 6 15:17:02 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 15:17:02 PST Subject: Big Interest Rate Cut & More! Message-ID: <200111062322.XAA50391@s0287.pm0.net> +>+>+> FREE 21 DAY TRIAL - ARE YOUR INVESTMENTS LOSING THEIR VALUE? Hear what Jim Shepherd, one of the world's highest compensated stock market strategists, is telling subscribers whose portfolios have gained over 33% in safe investments in the last two years. Click Here For A 21-Day FREE trial http://opt-influence.com/c/pl.cgi?jasm2 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT - NOVEMBER 7, 2001 Please e-mail us if you are interested in advertising to our 150,000 Subscribers. mailto:info at spotm.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Hello All Investors, Stocks soared Tuesday after the Fed targeted the weakening economy with an aggressive half-percentage point cut in interest rates. Techs led the charge, highlighted by a 17-percent surge in shares of Hewlett-Packard as its merger with Compaq was dealt a major blow. The rate cut was the central bank's tenth this year, and it took the overnight fed funds rate down to 2 percent from 6.5 percent at the start of the year. The Fed also lowered the discount rate by 1/2 percentage point, taking it to 1.50 percent. Moreover, the Fed suggested that more rate cuts are in the offing. The Dow Jones Industrial Average piled on 150 points, or 1.6 percent, to 9,591. Sustaining the Dow were shares of Hewlett-Packard, Intel, IBM, Microsoft, J.P. Morgan Chase, Alcoa, Caterpillar, Home Depot and United Technologies. Ending in the minus column were shares of Walt Disney, General Motors, 3M and SBC Communications. The Nasdaq Composite surged 41 points, or 2.3 percent, to 1,835 while the Nasdaq 100 Index soared 42 points, or 2.9 percent, to 1,523. In the broad market, the Standard & Poor's 500 Index sprinted 1.5 percent while the Russell 2000 Index of small-capitalization stocks swelled 1.2 percent. TALK ABOUT FAMILY SQUABBLES... Hewlett-Packard powered the Dow, with its shares surging 17 percent following news that the Hewlett family would vote against the proposed H-P and Compaq merger, which was announced in early September. The family has a stake of about 5 percent in the Dow stock. H-P has yet to say when it plans to put the proposal to a shareholder vote. Compaq fell 5.3 percent. +>+>+> PLEASE READ - EIGHT REASONS TO LOVE SMALL CAP STOCKS http://www.fool.com/foolish8/2001/foolish8011023.htm +>+>+> TO VIEW OUR TWO DAILY STOCK PICKS BY HARRY AND BRUCE - Please go to our website http://www.wallstreetuniverse.com PEACE - Steven Schwartz and Staff mailto:support at wallstreetuniverse.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://inbound.postmastergeneral.com/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.rwx.37kh From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 13:20:14 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:20:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Stun Guns a Firearm? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > In California, they are legal, with some restrictions: > > http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12650.htm > > "ARTICLE 7. STUN GUNS > 12650. "Stun gun" as used in this chapter shall include any item, except > a taser, used or intended to be used as either an offensive or defensive ^^^^^^^^^ "Taser" is the stun gun to which I was referrring as unsaleable (is that a word?) to mere civilians. Additionally, I was referring to federal law, rather than state law, since (as we have seen in California's medical marijuana clinics) state laws are meaningless in the face of federal laws. I have left a message on an answering machine for regarding Anonymous' question for a citation, and will forward it when I receive a return call. The Taser issue is one I very recently (~2 months ago) researched, as I had planned to acquire and [openly] carry one. So much for that... > I've heard anecdotes from people who were hassled by cops when they wore > their stun guns on their belts. Similar to what often happens to people > when they openly wear knives, even though open carry is ostensibly > preferable in many places to concealment. Just imagine the hassle the BATF is in a position to dole out. > "Do not anger Happy Fun Court by openly exercising your rights!" We have rights? When did _that_ haapen? > --Tim May -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmself at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 6 16:22:34 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:22:34 -0800 Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: <3BE8723F.489624BD@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:29:03PM -0600 References: <3BE8723F.489624BD@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20011106162234.I361@navel.introspect> on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:29:03PM -0600, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com) wrote: > http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/06/2028252.shtml Big Biz sues helpful guy, and somewhat wins. Eric's side of the story is here: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/erics_commentary.html Exerpts: What Happened to MathWorld It is no secret that one consequence of the explosion in the popularity of the internet and related electronic technologies is that many battles will be fought over how information is created, stored, and accessed. It is equally clear that we all have a stake in how these battles are decided. Below is an account of one such battle--the lawsuit served on me and Wolfram Research in the spring of 2000 by CRC Press LLC, a publisher that generations of scientists used to know as the Chemical Rubber Company. This lawsuit was instigated by CRC Press after I had contracted with them to print and distribute a "snapshot" of my math web site in book form. My goal in recounting how that contract went awry is to give others an opportunity to learn less painfully what I have learned--especially about the deep cultural divide that appears to be opening up between most, but I hope not all, book publishers and their potential customers and authors. In particular, many publishers seem unable to understand a new generation for whom dynamic web sites are rapidly becoming a primary medium--sometimes coequal with books, sometimes preferred over books--for gathering, extending, and sharing knowledge. [...] How MathWorld Came to Be I began collecting the material now found in MathWorld when I was in high school and continued the project as a college student in the late 1980s. As I collected the material, I stored my notes on my state-of-the-art Mac Plus personal computer and started sharing my collections of math and science facts with friends. "Eric's Treasure Trove of Mathematics," the predecessor site to MathWorld, first went online in 1995 when I was a graduate student in planetary astronomy at the California Institute of Technology. As the site became more widely known and used, dozens of contributors offered new entries. Hundreds of others from around the world offered technical advice, criticism, and kind messages. The web site was in a constant state of evolution. It was a hugely rewarding experience. The growing volume of comments and submissions from the diverse community of users made clear that what had started as a labor of love for me was becoming a major math and science resource for thousands, just as I had hoped. The Book: A "Snapshot" of the Evolving Web Site As the web site grew, I came to believe that a snapshot of its contents in printed form could be useful. I myself do not always have a computer at my fingertips. A book would also make the material accessible to precollege educators and people less comfortable with (or without access to) the internet. (For some of you it may require some imagination to conjure up the dark ages of 1995, when web browsers were in their infancy and email was hardly the mass phenomenon it has since become.) [...] Tales of warm friendships between famous authors and their longtime editors are legendary. I imagined that publishers must have a natural interest in retaining the good will of their authors, especially authors of works likely to be revised and reissued in new editions. When CRC agreed to publish the book, I therefore gave limited scrutiny to the boilerplate [38]publishing agreement they provided--especially since my editor, Bob Stern, characterized the contract as "very straight forward [sic] and easily understood." He assured me that its language and terms were standard in the publishing business. So I signed it. Lesson #1 (Where have you heard this before?): Never sign a contract until you feel that you understand and agree with, or at least accept, every clause in it. If you are not sure of the meaning or implications of any phrase or provision, find a lawyer experienced in your kind of project and take the lawyer's advice! (This lesson should be read repeatedly and committed to memory.) Also consult with authors' organizations, and make use of helpful online resources such as Wilfred Hodges's [39]mathematical copyright web page, a public page devoted to copyright issues in mathematical publications. CRC's agreement defined the contracted "Work" as "approximately 1400 camera-ready manuscript pages and includ[ing] approximately 1200 camera-ready illustrations to yield a completed work of approximately 1408 printed pages[.]" I understood this to mean that I was assigning to CRC the right to publish the typeset camera-ready text I had offered them. The Web Site and Its Relationship to Book Sales In late October or early November 1998, as the book adaptation neared final production, I received a phone call from Mr. Stern. Throughout this pre-publication period, my web site had been receiving a great deal of attention. I had posted on the web site an announcement of the imminent appearance of the CRC book; that announcement appeared to be generating a significant number of pre-release sales for the book. I thought things were going very well. But now Mr. Stern was on the phone asking me to remove portions of the web site content in order to create greater incentives for online users to purchase the book. [...] So I told Mr. Stern that I felt the web site was, on balance, creating sales for the book, not suppressing them. I was very reluctant to restrict free access to any contents of the web site. However, in November 1998, against my better judgment, I began to comply with Mr. Stern's request. At first I did this by randomly choosing a set of letters of the alphabet each day and blocking all entries starting with those letters. That way, some inconvenience was introduced into use of the web site, but no material remained blocked for long. [...] I began work at Wolfram Research on June 1, 1999. Stephen Wolfram and others suggested that the web site ought to give its users the ability to locate information based on a custom-tailored subject classification. A number of Wolfram Research staff joined me in developing an intuitive and powerful new graphical user interface that greatly enhanced the usefulness of the burgeoning content of the math web site. [...] CRC Fails to Promote the Book When the book was first released, CRC promoted it with what I thought was some vigor. However, as the months passed I grew increasingly disappointed with their efforts. Less than a year after its release, the book ceased appearing in CRC mailings that I received, including special ones for its "Most Popular Math Titles." I was also greatly disappointed that CRC had raised the price of the book twice within its first year, from the original $65, to $79.95, to $99.95. This seemed to undermine our original strategy of keeping the price low enough for students to afford. And it appeared to me that CRC had done little to get the book into bookstores. In fact, to date, I have only seen the book carried in a single bookstore: the campus bookstore of my highly atypical alma mater, the California Institute of Technology. CRC Sues Eric and Wolfram Research At the end of this conversation, Mr. Stern changed the topic. He told me that he had heard that my web site was now located at a Wolfram Research web address. [...] On March 8, 2000, I was greatly surprised when, after returning from lunch, I was informed that a sheriff's deputy was waiting for me in the Wolfram Research lobby. I was even more dismayed when he served me with a document naming me and my employer as defendants in a Federal copyright violation lawsuit. [...] How the Tail Came to Wag the Dog In their lawsuit, CRC claimed that the existence of the MathWorld web site "competes with and interferes and impairs with [sic] sales of the Concise Encyclopedia." They sought monetary damages from Wolfram Research. From me, they sought "not less than the advance and all royalties earned by Weisstein"--everything, in short, that they had ever paid me! Apparently impervious to irony, CRC at the same time acknowledged in its own court filing that the book was the company's best-selling mathematics title! (This, one month after Mr. Stern had "explained" to me that my book was a back list item that I should not be surprised to see dropped from its promotional materials.) Arguments that the web site was hurting sales of the book, in CRC's subsequent [43]motion to force us to shut down the web site, were completely contrary to the facts as I knew them and as I had tried repeatedly to explain to Mr. Stern. [...] And CRC also claimed, with a straight face, that "[44] ...the public will suffer no injury from a preliminary injunction because the Encyclopedia will continue to be available without interruption, from CRC Press". This argument, in particular, confirmed my worst fears that CRC's representatives had never understood the nature of my web site. They were blind to the interests of the thousands of you in our online community who had helped expand and improve it. They seemed completely oblivious of the fact that without you, there might not have been a book worth publishing. [...] Settling the Case [...] In addition to its "instant win," CRC will be paid annually for books they don't sell, according to a formula that both sides have accepted--although we continue to believe that any past or future failure to achieve projected sales is far more plausibly attributed to CRC's abysmal marketing efforts than to any abuse of the web site by people who want to have and hold snapshots of its contents. But in this life we do what we have to do--and what we are willing to do. There are a few other consequences of the settlement which are of interest to MathWorld readers. The first is that a copyright statement "© 1999 CRC Press LLC" (in addition of the © 1999-2001 Wolfram Research, Inc. notice) now appears at the bottom of MathWorld entries that have a corresponding article in CRC's printed shapshot. Despite the fact the I (or volunteer contributors) wrote these entries, that CRC Press did nothing to support their creation or the creation of the web site in which they appear, and the fact that they existed in the web site long before they ever appeared in the printed version, the tail has truly come to wave this dog, and this copyright statement will henceforth be a constant reminder of this fact. Another important change is that, as part of the settlement agreement, CRC Press will now be given permission to create editions of the printed book based on future snapshots of the web site. As a result, CRC insisted that broad reproduction rights to all contributed material be secured. Furthermore, if we are not able to secure such rights, then Wolfram Research and I, at our own expense, must rewrite the entries in question from scratch for CRC to reproduce. This makes it extremely difficult for us to include any new contributed material on the web site unless we first secure permissions using CRC's [45]boilerplate permissions form. This form is endorsed by neither Wolfram Research nor myself, but as part of the settlement agreement, we are required to ask contributors to sign it. Since our goal is and always has been to provide your contributions on-line to the worldwide math community, we sincerely apologize for any inconvenience or imposition this CRC-mandated form may cause you. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ign at ign.com Tue Nov 6 16:39:29 2001 From: ign at ign.com (ign at ign.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:39:29 PST Subject: New IGN.COM Service Announcement! References: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9035 bytes Desc: not available URL: From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 14:47:12 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:47:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' In-Reply-To: <3BE865E8.108350D5@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Only a > commie traitor could object to le power grabs at a time when alerts are > clearly critical to the survival of the entire nation and its way of > life! You forgot to mention that it was also "for the sake of the children" :-) -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmself at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 6 17:28:09 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:28:09 -0800 Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:48:29PM -0600 References: <20011106162234.I361@navel.introspect> Message-ID: <20011106172808.A24595@navel.introspect> on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:48:29PM -0600, measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) wrote: > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > > > Apparently impervious to irony, CRC at the same time acknowledged in > > its own court filing that the book was the company's best-selling > > mathematics title! (This, one month after Mr. Stern had "explained" > > to me that my book was a back list item that I should not be > > surprised to see dropped from its promotional materials.) > > > > > In addition to its "instant win," CRC will be paid annually for > > books they don't sell, according to a formula that both sides have > > accepted--although we continue to believe that any past or future > > failure to achieve projected sales is far more plausibly attributed > > to CRC's abysmal marketing efforts than to any abuse of the web site > > > > > Another important change is that, as part of the settlement > > agreement, CRC Press will now be given permission to create editions > > of the printed book based on future snapshots of the web site. As a > > result, CRC insisted that broad reproduction rights to all > > contributed material be secured. Furthermore, if we are not able to > > secure such rights, then Wolfram Research and I, at our own expense, > > must rewrite the entries in question from scratch for CRC to > > reproduce. > > And he *agreed* to this??? > > Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, he lost any and all right(s) to > bitch about this when he agreed to the "instant win". > > What kind of dipshit would AGREE to these kind of things? I certainly don't have the full story. Many lawsuits are ultimately settled by strategic assessment: does it make more sense to stand and fight, or to settle and avoid more legal expenses. Going up against a publishing beheamoth, the decision of Eric Weisstein and Wolfram makes a certain amount of sense, particularly for a risk-averse company (and virtually all companies are risk averse). There's also the case of various organizations which have sued MAPS. Simply doing so is largely a losing proposition. There are effectively two MAPS blacklists: one you can get yourself off of by correcting a situation, and one you'll never get off of by virtue of having reached a "settlement" with the company. named.conf files in domains I control have authoritative entries for 247media.com, blackice.com, exactis.com, experian.com, harrisinteractive.com, and liveprayer.com. These are hardcoded in countless systems, not maintained by MAPS and other RBLs, and they're not negotiable. The CRC / Information Holdings "victory" is likely to have two lasting impacts: - Other authors of useful online scientific sites are going to be far less likely to enter into agreements with the company, and if they do so, under terms other than the contract Eric initially signed. - The general press for scientific authors (particularly of peer-reviewed journal articles) to find terms other than permanent assignment of all (or at least substantive) copyright will increase. I see this as a win battle / lose war scenario. I also see a potential third scenario. The MathWorld archive is largely notable for two characteristics: - It's associated with Eric Weisstein, and benefits greatly from his stewardship. - Its true strength comes form the guided contributions of many individuals to the site. It's not a product, it's a process. One alternative may be for Eric to continue maintenance of existing content on the MathWorld site, but to create a new site, independent in name from MathWorld, to which user contributions are made. Whether or not this is possible depends heavily on the specifics of the CRC settlement. My feeling is that CRC/IH have slain their golden goose in this case. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 15:29:03 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 17:29:03 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics Message-ID: <3BE8723F.489624BD@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/06/2028252.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From info_4u0 at lycos.com Tue Nov 6 17:33:50 2001 From: info_4u0 at lycos.com (info_4u0 at lycos.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:33:50 Subject: MUST READ!!!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: <200111062245.QAA18496@einstein.ssz.com> If you're sick of scams, then read this, and do what it says. Dear Future Millionaire: I'll make you a promise. READ THIS E-MAIL TO THE END! - follow what it says to the letter - and you will not worry whether a RECESSION is coming or not, who is President, or whether you keep your current job or not. Yes, I know what you are thinking. I never responded to one of these before either. One day though, something just said "you throw away $25.00 going to a movie for 2 hours with your wife". "What the heck." 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Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 .....# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 ormore e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! =============MORE TESTIMONIALS=============== '' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........ all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jodyin her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois ================================================ '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ================================================= '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ================================================= '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ================================================= ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! If you have any questions regarding this great deal please write me at yourreports at ziplip.com If you wish to be removed from the mailing list please send an email to removemeplease at ziplip.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line. ================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ================================================= ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE ================================================= This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301, paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to: removemeplease at ziplip.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line. From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 07:42:34 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:42:34 +0200 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets References: Message-ID: <00bc01c166d9$a76c6600$5300a8c0@marcel> From: "Jim Choate" > What does it take to create a 'free market'? Hayeks says 'perfect > competition'. And in this, he gave way to David Friedman and the like. Hayek is the least Austrian of the Austrians. Look to Mises - or better yet, to Rothbard - to find a much better Austrian. > The reality is that Tim's believe that he can refuse to serve a customer > because they hold or perhaps practice some action that (while not > involving him or his property directly, only his apparently fragile > emotional ego) he finds offensive is within the bounds of free market > econoimics is just plain crap. > > Hayek's views on fascism and socialism are well known, and not positive. > What Tim proposes is nothing more than fascism at the individual level. You're still incredibly deluded. Even Hayek (bad as he is) would have supported someone's decision NOT to sell to someone else, your rethoric notwithstanding. BTW, do you have anything else besides "Tim is wrong"? (And I'm no fan of Tim.) Mark From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 08:32:04 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:32:04 +0200 Subject: Fw: Business 'rights' and free markets Message-ID: <015601c166e0$91dde370$5300a8c0@marcel> I thought Choate might want someone with more authority to speak on this. Here is his reply. (Jeff Tucker is the admin of the mises.org mailing list.) Mark From: "Jeff Tucker" > This looks hopeless to me. Anyone who calls the freedom of association > "fascism on an individual level" isn't worth arguing with. > > jeff > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marcel Popescu" > To: "Jeff Tucker" > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:55 AM > Subject: Fw: Business 'rights' and free markets > > > I apologize for disturbing you; we're unable to convince this guy he > doesn't > have a clue what he's talking about, so I thought maybe we could get a few > words from someone with more authority than us. > > Basically, we're talking about the Austrian school, and whether a free > market can exist at all. We started with Tim May's statement (with which I > agree completely) that there's no contradiction between a free market, and > the freedom of a businessman to refuse to accept a customer, no matter on > what grounds. Choate disagrees. > > Thank you, and my apologies for bothering you with such triviality. (It's > not that I don't know how to respond - it's that this guy won't accept > anyone because "he doesn't really understands Hayek".) > > Mark From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Nov 6 18:47:29 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:47:29 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: <200111070247.fA72lTU26383@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Seems those opposed to the coming civil liberties crack down need to start employing some of the very same technology proposed to corral us. For starters how about PC FaceCam to punish sneak and peek? Seems that if the data base of such a system were programmed to detect entry and discriminate family members or others who should have legit access to your property you could use it to deter their searches.(Probably a good idea to put a good UPS on the PC and FaceCam to thwart power interruptions, though why they would want to risk causing a tell tale time reset to one of you appliances I can't imagine.) For example, you could hook a compressed air tank to a high frequency whistle via a control valve connected to you PC. Shouldn't be much of a problem reaching damaging or even lethal sound levels and might hard to stop once triggered. (Ever try find which one of your smoke detectors was triggering?) Not recommended if you have pets :-) (I once connected a buzzer in the center of a large wall-mounted array of flash lamps to an under-the-carpet pressure sensor to form a burglar bugger. When triggered the system would sound the buzzer for about 1/2 second, to attract the eyes of the burglar, and then fire. A few months after install our place was burgled and the thieves fled without taking any items, probably with some permanent retinal damage.) Of course you could connect an automated firearm to the PC. (Crime Stoppers Note: always aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list know what penalties might be brought? I seem to recall that tying a shotgun to the doorknob was ruled an "indiscriminate weapon". But a FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indiscriminate. From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 16:48:29 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:48:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: <20011106162234.I361@navel.introspect> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > Apparently impervious to irony, CRC at the same time acknowledged in > its own court filing that the book was the company's best-selling > mathematics title! (This, one month after Mr. Stern had "explained" > to me that my book was a back list item that I should not be > surprised to see dropped from its promotional materials.) > In addition to its "instant win," CRC will be paid annually for > books they don't sell, according to a formula that both sides have > accepted--although we continue to believe that any past or future > failure to achieve projected sales is far more plausibly attributed > to CRC's abysmal marketing efforts than to any abuse of the web site > Another important change is that, as part of the settlement > agreement, CRC Press will now be given permission to create editions > of the printed book based on future snapshots of the web site. As a > result, CRC insisted that broad reproduction rights to all > contributed material be secured. Furthermore, if we are not able to > secure such rights, then Wolfram Research and I, at our own expense, > must rewrite the entries in question from scratch for CRC to > reproduce. And he *agreed* to this??? Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, he lost any and all right(s) to bitch about this when he agreed to the "instant win". What kind of dipshit would AGREE to these kind of things? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bounce at fantasy-mail.com Tue Nov 6 10:49:07 2001 From: bounce at fantasy-mail.com (Fantasy Mail) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 18:49:07 GMT Subject: Welcome To Fantasy Mail! Your Attention Is Requested Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2875 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Tue Nov 6 10:44:53 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:44:53 +0100 Subject: Stun Guns a Firearm? Message-ID: > According to new federal laws, a non-lethal stun gun *is* in fact a > firearm. Supposedly enacted specifically to keep felons from stun-guns, > it seems geared more towards keeping the populace from self-defence. What! Care to elborate a bit more on this? When did this get passed, and what else was made illegal? Paintball guns? Pellet guns? Rocks? Or only rocks in a sock? Tim is only too right -- this country is totally fucked. From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 17:50:19 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:50:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: <20011106172808.A24595@navel.introspect> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > Many lawsuits are ultimately settled by strategic assessment: does it > make more sense to stand and fight, or to settle and avoid more legal > expenses. This is the stance pushed by lawyer vermin, who are more interested in their fees than in right and wrong. To knuckle under to it is to act without honor, and to lose - completely - any respect your peers may have had for you. If more people would see these things through as issues of right and wrong, and then sue the opposing scumfuck lawyers on the other side, there would be a LOT less of this. > There's also the case of various organizations which have sued MAPS. How the hell did we get into MAPS here? > Simply doing so is largely a losing proposition. Really? Tell that to the recent victors. > There are effectively > two MAPS blacklists: one you can get yourself off of by correcting a > situation, and one you'll never get off of by virtue of having reached a > "settlement" with the company. named.conf files in domains I control > have authoritative entries for 247media.com, blackice.com, exactis.com, > experian.com, harrisinteractive.com, and liveprayer.com. These are > hardcoded in countless systems, not maintained by MAPS and other > RBLs, and they're not negotiable. Interesting. My named.confs are authoritative for MAPS and it's ilk. > The CRC / Information Holdings "victory" is likely to have two lasting > impacts: > > - Other authors of useful online scientific sites are going to be far > less likely to enter into agreements with the company, and if they > do so, under terms other than the contract Eric initially signed. They should refuse to have anything to do with this company -period. > - The general press for scientific authors (particularly of > peer-reviewed journal articles) to find terms other than permanent > assignment of all (or at least substantive) copyright will increase. These are people who should have known better _already_. What makes you think they'll be any more serious about their due diligence in the future? > I see this as a win battle / lose war scenario. For which side? > I also see a potential third scenario. The MathWorld archive is largely > notable for two characteristics: > > - It's associated with Eric Weisstein, and benefits greatly from his > stewardship. Not any more... > - Its true strength comes form the guided contributions of many > individuals to the site. It's not a product, it's a process. *Now*, it's a product. > One alternative may be for Eric to continue maintenance of existing > content on the MathWorld site, but to create a new site, independent in > name from MathWorld, to which user contributions are made. Whether or > not this is possible depends heavily on the specifics of the CRC > settlement. Assuming for a second that it _is_ possible, what makes you think this pussy wouldn't knuckle under the next time CRC came knocking? > My feeling is that CRC/IH have slain their golden goose in > this case. Not at all: the more copies they _don't_ sell, the more this idjit will contribute to them in cash! He has insured that they will *always* make money on this, even if they execute their own project - on purpose! > Peace. Peace my ass. To put it in May-Speak, these assholes have most definitely earned killing, along with those insects they refer to as "lawyers". -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kurtbuff at lightmail.com Tue Nov 6 20:30:01 2001 From: kurtbuff at lightmail.com (Kurt) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:30:01 -0800 Subject: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2215d867621a477364ea4376d900d9ef3be8b84f@zetron.com> I tried to find this article on the web site - the link doesn't seem to work, and a search on either 'tina hesman' or 'dershowitz' reveals nothing.... | Below is the link to the story. {Saint Louis Today} | | | By Tina Hesman | Of The Post-Dispatch | 11/04/2001 06:07 AM | From throwaway1 at hushmail.com Tue Nov 6 21:03:20 2001 From: throwaway1 at hushmail.com (throwaway1 at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:03:20 -0800 Subject: Test - please ignore Message-ID: <200111070503.fA753KC51128@mailserver1.hushmail.com> From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 6 21:30:28 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:30:28 -0800 Subject: William Cooper, activist, killed in raid this morning on his Arizona home Message-ID: <8DEE8303-D340-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Cypherpunks, Various reports are appearing on this, some from the Sierra Times, some at his Web site (http://williamcooper.com/). William Cooper was the radio talk show host/UFO nut/MJ-12 believer/anti-New World Order guy. Much more is available on various sites. (He was one of the first Usenet nutcases, er, "interesting people," I encountered when I began using the New extensively in 1988. MJ-12 (Majestic 12), his book "Behold a Pale Horse," and countless conspiracy theories. Recently he's been carrying articles about the coming police state, the USA-PATRIOT Act and the criminals who passed it, and the need for action. Apparently he was shot and killed in a midnight raid on his home in rural Arizona this morning. The Website, obviously being updated by someone else (who may wish his or her survival to be ensured!), is epressing caution that patriots not jump to any conclusions that Cooper was targetted because of his political views. Hmmmmhhh. Whatever. Time will tell. Perhaps the warrant was being served for his unpaid taxes...but why at midnight for a tax matter? Looks like Waco all over again. Being discussed in alt.conspiracy, misc.survivalism, and, one presumes, a bunch of the UFO, militia, and patriot newsgroups. A search on Yahoo's headline news doesn't yet pick up the (alleged) AP news story quoted below, but it may by tomorrow. Or by more specialized searches. The cautious person might believe the round up of undesirables may be beginning. (Ashcroft can boast: "We have rounded up 350 more suspicious persons. Under the new USA-PATRIOT Act, we will hold them indefiniately. Chief Interrogator Alan Dershowitz is bringing his tools to torture the truth out of these perps. ") The ultra-cautious person would make certain all of the Claymores are set, and that the Sarin antidotes are close at hand for when the automatic release occurs upon entry. Here's a story posted on some of the Usenet groups: --begin story-- MILITIA LEADER KILLED, DEPUTY WOUNDED DURING ATTEMPTED ARREST Associated Press/The Arizona Republic Nov. 06, 2001 12:20:00 EAGAR - A national leader of the militia movement has been killed and an Apache County sheriff's deputy wounded in a shootout, authorities said. William Milton Cooper, 58, of Eager, had hosted a talk show broadcast on the Worldwide Christian Radio out of Nashville, which receives it via phone from his home in St. Johns. He had millions of listeners worldwide, including Timothy McVeigh. The deputy, whose name was being withheld by authorities, was shot twice in the head while trying to arrest Cooper, a state Department of Public Safety spokesman said today. Cooper was killed by another officer. Several deputies were attempting to arrest Cooper, who was armed with a handgun, said Officer Steve Volden, a spokesman for the DPS, which was investigating the shooting. He said details of the shooting would be released later today. The deputy was in critical condition at a Phoenix hospital early today, Volden said. Cooper was one of the most widely known prophets of the "patriot movement," railing at the federal government and talking of doomsday omens in his radio broadcast. McVeigh, who was executed in May for the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City, listened to Cooper's broadcasts for inspiration, according to testimony by James Nichols, brother of Oklahoma bombing co-defendant Terry Nichols during a 1996 pretrial hearing. Like some other patriot leaders, Cooper refused to get a driver's license or pay federal income taxes, saying he is willing to risk getting ticketed and has found a legal way to avoid the taxes. The patriot movement grew during the 1990s, fed by a series of news events - the siege of Randy Weaver in Idaho, the raid on the Branch Davidians near Waco, Texas and the signing of gun-control laws. --end story-- --Tim May "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 6 21:34:07 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:34:07 -0800 Subject: URL for William Cooper death story Message-ID: <100A6572-D341-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Got the URL for the AP story on William Cooper's death in a midnight raid: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/breaking/1106deputyshot06-ON.html --Tim May "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet From memcs1103 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 19:36:13 2001 From: memcs1103 at yahoo.com (-EmailCenter-) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:36:13 -0600 Subject: -Most Responsive E-mails, FREE Direct E-mail Software Message-ID: <200111070400.WAA20948@einstein.ssz.com> ===================================== FREE Bulletproof Mail Servers for a month with qualified purchase, see details below! ===================================== - FRESH 10,000 List 11-05-01!! 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(never lose your ISP again!) - SPECIALS! - ---------------------- **FREE with EVERY order: Demo of ListMan e-mail manager software **Orders of 50,000 or more: FREE copy Express Mail Server to send your messages! -This is not a demo but a permanent license for the software! **Orders of 200,000 : - Resale Rights for EMS! -->You keep 100% of the profits - InfoDisk with 1000+ Money Making Reports - CheckMAN software _______________________________________________________________ To be removed from future mailings: mailto:memcs1103 at yahoo.com?Subject=Remove From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 6 20:43:28 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:43:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: <20011106172808.A24595@navel.introspect> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > One alternative may be for Eric to continue maintenance of existing > content on the MathWorld site, but to create a new site, independent in > name from MathWorld, to which user contributions are made. Whether or > not this is possible depends heavily on the specifics of the CRC > settlement. My feeling is that CRC/IH have slain their golden goose in > this case. wikipedia.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From napsterrapstar at hotmail.com Tue Nov 6 20:10:48 2001 From: napsterrapstar at hotmail.com (napsterrapstar at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:10:48 -0500 Subject: ay foolproof Message-ID: i know u posted this shit in april, buti know a way 2 get roudn fool proof, try booting up in safe mode, then uninstallintg it. if it don't work 2 bad. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 458 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Tue Nov 6 20:14:30 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:14:30 -0500 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <000ae09511606b1ATOSDCFE1@atos.faa.gov>; from baptista@faa.gov on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:52:04AM -0500 References: <000ae09511606b1ATOSDCFE1@atos.faa.gov> Message-ID: <20011106231430.A29862@cluebot.com> It worked. The risk is not that experts will be fooled. They can scroll through the headers and figure things out. The risk is that the message will have a Message-ID: that includes faa.gov and some Received: lines will include faa.gov. Would make me do a double-take. -Declan On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:52:04AM -0500, baptista at faa.gov wrote: > This is Joe baptista using the open email replay at faa.gov to prove a point. > > 1) is this an open relay. > 2) can faa.gov messages be forged through this open relay? > > thats all folks. From declan at well.com Tue Nov 6 20:27:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:27:12 -0500 Subject: Mail filters in qmail? In-Reply-To: <20011107004658.24794.qmail@sidereal.kz>; from drevil@sidereal.kz on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:46:58AM -0000 References: <20011107004658.24794.qmail@sidereal.kz> Message-ID: <20011106232712.B29862@cluebot.com> I'm not that familiar with qmail, but I was under the impression it was an MTA like postfix or sendmail. I presume you intended to ask about procmail. Put this in your procmail.rc file before your cypherpunks rule: INCLUDERC=$PMDIR/kill.rc Insert in the new $PMDIR/kill.rc file something like this: :0: * ^From:.*?ravage at .*?ssz.com.* trash I suspect you don't have to include the last .* (don't recall). Do a search for procmail FAQs for far more details than you ever wanted. -Declan On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:46:58AM -0000, Dr. Evil wrote: > Ok, I have come to the conclusion that this list is unbearable without > some filters. Can someone recomend what is the easiest way to drop > email from certain posters, using the Qmail system? I just want > something simple which won't require me to learn some new > super-powerful filter ruleset description language. I just want to be > able to say, "If it comes from ravage at ... please discard." > > Thanks From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 6 23:38:56 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:38:56 -0800 Subject: Item from another list qouted without comment In-Reply-To: <20011107012706.B26668@die.com> Message-ID: <801F78C0-D352-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 10:27 PM, Dave Emery wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from Aimee Farr ----- > > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:27:11 -0600 > From: "Aimee Farr" > Subject: [TSCM-L] *BOOM!* > To: "TSCM-L Mailing List" > > All the civil lib talk regarding sneak and peek is radicalizing fringe > groups and sensitizing them to countermeasures. Conversations of > checks...vid -- and I strongly suspect booby trap talk. (I have a > research > interest in groups under surveillance/impression of surveillance.) Yep, it looks like Agent Farr all right--I recognize her fractured, incomprehensible style. What is one to make of: "Conversations of checks...vid -- and I strongly suspect booby trap talk."? I wonder if Agent Farr chose one of the groups Bill Cooper was on as part of her "research"? > The only booby trap I recognize is a "water bra." I hope guys doing > surreptitious entry under increased surveillance powers are afforded > better > recognition training. No doubt some of you are important resources as to > these matters, and I hope that your expertise is being sought. Agent Farr wants "guys doing surreptitious entry" to have "better recognition training." Not surprising, but it ought to convince even the charitable amongst us who wanted to give "Aimee Farr" the benefit of the doubt that she/he is clearly advising LEOs. --Tim May "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -- Nietzsche From fogstorm at mac.com Tue Nov 6 23:42:12 2001 From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:42:12 -0800 Subject: Osama Says Message-ID: Full text (translated into English) of his latest communication: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/monitoring/media_reports/newsid_1636000/ 1636782.stm From drevil at sidereal.kz Tue Nov 6 16:46:58 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 7 Nov 2001 00:46:58 -0000 Subject: Mail filters in qmail? Message-ID: <20011107004658.24794.qmail@sidereal.kz> Ok, I have come to the conclusion that this list is unbearable without some filters. Can someone recomend what is the easiest way to drop email from certain posters, using the Qmail system? I just want something simple which won't require me to learn some new super-powerful filter ruleset description language. I just want to be able to say, "If it comes from ravage at ... please discard." Thanks From verba at rol.it Tue Nov 6 15:56:07 2001 From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:56:07 +0100 Subject: Verba Volant del 07-11-01 Message-ID: <1005094568@web_ext.logos.it> Verba Volant del 07-11-01, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com _________________ Quotation of the day: Author - Paul Val�ry http://www.logos.it/bio/paul_valery.html English - politics is the art of seeing that people do not become interested in that which concerns them Italian - la politica � l'arte di evitare che la gente si interessi di ci� che la riguarda Spanish - la pol�tica es el arte de evitar que la gente se interese en lo que le importa French - la politique est l'art d'emp�cher les gens de se m�ler de ce qui les regarde Portuguese - a pol�tica � a arte de evitar que as pessoas se interessem por aquilo que lhes diz respeito Brazilian Portuguese - a pol�tica � a arte de evitar que as pessoas se interessem por aquilo que lhes diz respeito German - Politik ist die Kunst zu vermeiden, dass die Leute sich f�r das interessieren, was sie betrifft Hungarian - a politika az a muv�szet, amivel el lehet �rni, hogy az emberek ne foglalkozzanak az oket �rinto dolgokkal Finnish - politiikka on taidetta est�� ihmisi� kiinnostumasta heit� itse��n koskevista asioista Catalan - la pol�tica �s l�art d�evitar que la gent s�interesi d�all� que la preocupa Croatian - politika je umjetnost izbjegavanja da se ljudi interesiraju onim �to ih se tice Czech - politika je umen� postarat se o to, aby se lid� nezaj�mali o veci, kter� se jich t�kaj� Dutch - politiek is de kunst te vermijden dat de mensen zich interesseren in wat hen aangaat Emiliano-Romagnolo - la puleteca la � l'erti ad fer ca la zent us'impipa dal robi ca son de chent lur Furlan - la politiche 'e j� l'art di schiv� che la int si interesi di chel che la riguarde Latin - ratio civilis est ars cavendi ne homines curent quod ad se pertineat Latvian; Lettish - politika ir maksla redzet, ka cilveki neinteresejas par to, kas attiecas uz viniem Occitan - la politica es l�art d�empachar que lo monde s�enteresse de �� que lo regarda Polish - polityka jest sztuka unikania by ludzie interesowali sie tym co ich dotyczy Romanian - politica este arta de a �mpiedica oamenii sa se amestece �n ceea ce �i priveste Slovak - politika je umen�m postarat sa o to, aby sa ludia nezauj�malo o to, co sa ich t�ka Venetian - la politica la xe la capassit� de fare in maniera che la xente no se intaressi de quel che la riguarda Sicilian - 'a pulitica � l'arti di evitari ca 'a genti s'interessa di chiddu ca 'a riguarda Flemish - politiek is de kunst te vermijden dat de mensen zich interesseren in wat hen aangaat Calabrese - la pulitica � u mistieri di sapiri evitari ca a genti si possa interessari di chiro ca la riguarda Reggiano - la pol�tica l'� l'erta ed tajer fora la gint da coll che gh'inter�sa Ferrarese - la pulitica l'� l'art ad far s� c'la zent la'n s'interess brisa ad quel c'la riguarda Bolognese - la pul�ttica l�� l��rt ed f�r da manc che la z�nt is intar�sen a qu�ll ch�al i �ntra s�g _________________ All languages, please click on this link http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=438 _________________ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:" From die at die.com Tue Nov 6 22:27:06 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:27:06 -0500 Subject: Item from another list qouted without comment Message-ID: <20011107012706.B26668@die.com> ----- Forwarded message from Aimee Farr ----- From grocha at neutraldomain.org Tue Nov 6 16:27:50 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:27:50 +0100 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <7CF95F02-D2DA-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net>; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 09:19:51AM -0800 References: <20011106033635.H43409@neutraldomain.org> <7CF95F02-D2DA-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011107012750.A583@neutraldomain.org> On Tue, Nov 06, at 09:19AM, Tim May wrote: | Bluntly, when Choate makes strange claims about math, history, physics, | and economics, it's never worth the time to try to correct his many | wrong-headed (in our reality) ideas and definitions. Thank you for helping me see the light. I have pondered adding Choate to a killfile recently, but it is not worth the trouble, just move on to next message when I see something from him...But it sure is fun sometimes to point out how ignorant he is or acts or tries to come off as being. Besides, I am bored alot. :) --Gabe -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 7 01:41:06 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 01:41:06 -0800 Subject: Mail filters in qmail? In-Reply-To: <20011107004658.24794.qmail@sidereal.kz> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011107013829.03263e60@idiom.com> At 12:46 AM 11/07/2001 +0000, Dr. Evil wrote: >Ok, I have come to the conclusion that this list is unbearable without >some filters. Can someone recomend what is the easiest way to drop >email from certain posters, using the Qmail system? I just want >something simple which won't require me to learn some new >super-powerful filter ruleset description language. I just want to be >able to say, "If it comes from ravage at ... please discard." Declan suggests Procmail, if you want a powerful, flexible tool. Alternatively, many mail reader programs include filtering capabilities. /bin/mail didn't :-), but Eudora does, and probably most browser-based mail readers also do. So you're covered with Procmail on Unix, and client programs on Windows and Macs. From grocha at neutraldomain.org Tue Nov 6 16:50:37 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:50:37 +0100 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <00bc01c166d9$a76c6600$5300a8c0@marcel>; from mdpopescu@yahoo.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:42:34PM +0200 References: <00bc01c166d9$a76c6600$5300a8c0@marcel> Message-ID: <20011107015037.E583@neutraldomain.org> On Tue, Nov 06, at 05:42PM, Marcel Popescu wrote: | And in this, he gave way to David Friedman and the like. Hayek is the least | Austrian of the Austrians. Look to Mises - or better yet, to Rothbard - to | find a much better Austrian. By and by, "better" is a relative term... | You're still incredibly deluded. Even Hayek (bad as he is) would have | supported someone's decision NOT to sell to someone else, your rethoric | notwithstanding. You didn't need to go past your first sentence here. | BTW, do you have anything else besides "Tim is wrong"? (And | I'm no fan of Tim.) He has nothing else, see above. --Gabe -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." From victoskes at hotmail.com Tue Nov 6 19:50:00 2001 From: victoskes at hotmail.com (victor owunwa) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 03:50:00 +0000 Subject: Business relationship Message-ID: ATTENTION: REQUEST FOR AN URGENT BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP PLEASE STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL. Your contact address got to me via export promotion council. Your reliability and trust worthyness in business transaction was the main conviction that compelled me to solicit for your support in this deal. I am Dr.victor,the financial controller of the Nigerian national Petroleum Corporation (NNPC) Lagos, Nigeria and Secretary to the contract award committee of my Ministry. I, in collaboration with other members have agreed to transfer out of the country through central bank Nigeria (CBN) some amount and will later re-invest it abroad after the success of this transaction. The amount involved is thirty million United states dollars ($30m) this is as result of an over-inflated amount of contract. This contract has been already executed and commissioned and the original contractors have collected their full and final payment. Because this contract was awarded to foreign contractor and the payment made in U.S dollars, we now need a foreign firm that will present itself as the contractor for this amount of thirty million U.S dollars ($30m), and then the fund will be transferred into the company�s account since we do not want to use the original contractors in applying for the payment, because the (contractors) are not aware of this over-invoiced. Therefore, I as the financial controller was told to write to you by my colleagues and see to the success of the remittance immediately. You will however, be required to furnish us with the necessary informations. 1. Your Personal phone and fax numbers 2. Name of your bank, phone, fax and telex number 3. Your account numbers where this money will be lodged into. These informations will enable us to put application of claims for the release of this money from concerned government agencies and it will be for about 7 (seven) working days. For your assistance, we have agreed that the fund will be shared as follows: You as the account owner 30% Miscellaneous expenses 10% Officials invoiced 60% Now,, we assure you that all arrangements have been concluded for the success of this transactions, so if you are interested, reply us through the e-mail above. Yours sincerely,Dr.victor owunwa. N.B All replies strictly by e-mail for security reasons. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From jae at jerhard.org Tue Nov 6 19:27:34 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:27:34 +0100 Subject: A reasonable editorial assessment of Afghanistan status. In-Reply-To: <3BE49105.7556.125F8A6@localhost> (jamesd@echeque.com) References: <3BE49105.7556.125F8A6@localhost> Message-ID: >>>>> "jamesd" == jamesd writes: jamesd> -- >> http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/column.billpress/ >> index.html In each case, the truth belies the praise. If >> the military's doing such a great job, why -- after three >> weeks of nonstop, intensive bombing of one of the poorest >> countries on earth, with no navy, no air force and only a >> ragtag band of soldiers using obsolete weapons -- is the >> Taliban still in power? In past wars, CNN has been rather accurately called jamesd> "Communist News Network", but in this war they seem jamesd> incapable of mentioning the fact that our armed forces jamesd> frequently fuck up. Hey, since the day I heard they tried to get Rush Limbaugh, I've given up on them. And since all they're showing is "War War WAR", I've given up watching. Bye, J -- Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) My WebHome: http://jerhard.org GNU Privacy Guard (http://www.gnupg.org) Join the War on the War on Drugs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dreplies at maild.specialofferscentral.com Tue Nov 6 14:59:41 2001 From: dreplies at maild.specialofferscentral.com (Special Offers Central) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 04:29:41 +0530 Subject: Win a Year's Supply of Laundry Care products Message-ID: <200111062259.fA6MvR0E024462@maild.specialofferscentral.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SPECIAL OFFERS CENTRAL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A SPECIAL CONTEST OFFER... It is our pleasure to offer you a chance to win a free year's supply of laundry care products. If you are interested in learning more about this special offer, please click below. http://specialofferscentral.com/soc/0110di/l.asp?f=2&t=1&e=plcurechaxf~gbnq.pbz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Special Offers Central is dedicated to permission-based marketing. If you are not interested in receiving information from Special Offers Central, please click below to unsubscribe or reply with the word "Remove" in the subject line. http://specialofferscentral.com/soc/0110di/l.asp?f=2&t=UN&e=plcurechaxf~gbnq.pbz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2993 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jae at jerhard.org Tue Nov 6 19:31:58 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:31:58 +0100 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> (Raymond@fbntech.com) References: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> Message-ID: >>>>> "Raymond" == Raymond D Mereniuk writes: Raymond> I kinda like a place where there is a rule of law and Raymond> everything is totally predictable, something America Raymond> appears to be moving away from at this moment. So much for "Security for Freedom"... if you can't trust the "Security Personnel", how can you be secure? Benji Franklin comes to mind... Bye, J -- Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) My WebHome: http://jerhard.org GNOME Desktop Project (http://www.gnome.org) Amazon.com: One-Click Patent - One-Click Boycott -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jae at jerhard.org Tue Nov 6 19:46:47 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:46:47 +0100 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>>>> "Blanc" == Blanc writes: >> From Raymond D. Mereniuk: Blanc> :I kinda like a place where there is a rule of law and everything is Blanc> :totally predictable, something America appears to be moving away Blanc> :from at this moment. Blanc> ---------------------- Blanc> But the situation *is* entirely predictable: Blanc> Some people in scary positions of responsibility do not Blanc> want to see, hear, or know The Truth, because they don't Blanc> know what to do about it. It's all symbolism and familiar Blanc> stereotype - if you want to get by airport security, Blanc> . wear an NYPD hat Blanc> . put a U.S. flag pin on your jacket lapel or somewhere on Blanc> the top front of your clothing If (which I expect in the current climate) the "Holy Old Glory" amendment goes through, you should also take care not to spill any food or drink on the pin. Blanc> . if taking a book to read, be sure to change the cover to Blanc> one from those current books written by prominent Blanc> journalists or other liberal communications personalities Or buy one of Tom Clancy's titles. Blanc> . move in a calm manner - no sudden moves, say to help Blanc> with zippers or anything (remember: they don't trust you, Blanc> and only they are allowed to determine the course and Blanc> direction of your next step - any sign of too much or too Blanc> little self-confidence will be viewed with suspicion) Though if you err, err on the side of submission... Blanc> . as you pass by the armed guards, look in their eye, Blanc> smile sweetly, and say "I'm *so* glad you're here - I feel Blanc> safer now!" But you have to *honestly mean it*... not even a hint of sarcasm. They'll detect that. Blanc> . at the ticket counter, when they ask for your ID, begin Blanc> with "baahaaahaaa". They will respond with recognition and Blanc> relax a little. That would backfire if I did it... don't think they have a file on me... yet. Bye, J PS: Are we cynical bastards or what? :-} -- Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) Invasion! http://invasion.jerhard.org Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org) pros do it for money -- amateurs out of love. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grocha at neutraldomain.org Wed Nov 7 05:41:06 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:41:06 -0800 Subject: Mail filters in qmail? In-Reply-To: <20011106232712.B29862@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:27:12PM -0500 References: <20011107004658.24794.qmail@sidereal.kz> <20011106232712.B29862@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20011107054106.L43409@neutraldomain.org> On Tue, Nov 06, at 11:27PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: | Put this in your procmail.rc file before your cypherpunks rule: | INCLUDERC=$PMDIR/kill.rc | | Insert in the new $PMDIR/kill.rc file something like this: | :0: | * ^From:.*?ravage at .*?ssz.com.* | trash/ ^^ Make sure you add the leading slash to denote Maildir as opposed to mbox. -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. From mv at cdc.gov Wed Nov 7 06:37:27 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 06:37:27 -0800 Subject: Plugging leaks Message-ID: <3BE94727.836BFAEB@cdc.gov> At 01:46 PM 11/6/01 -0800, A. Melon wrote: >WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The information that prompted a warning that >terrorists might target a major Western bridge has been determined to be >"not credible," two federal law enforcement officials tell CNN, and the >FBI Tuesday is preparing to say no threat exists. > >"There just wasn't anything to it," said one official. The jihad's leak has been identified and, um, plugged. How do you say whacked in pashto? Gov Gray is a fine leak detector, don't believe it when they say soapy water is any better. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 05:27:27 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 07:27:27 -0600 Subject: Model Emergency Health Powers Act For States Drafted Message-ID: <3BE936BF.7972A21E@ssz.com> http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1107013.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mv at cdc.gov Wed Nov 7 07:42:11 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 07:42:11 -0800 Subject: URL for William Cooper death story Message-ID: <3BE95652.49C84A26@cdc.gov> At 10:20 AM 11/7/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Here's another article with more detail. Gotta love the SPLC: > >http://www.arizonarepublic.com/news/articles/1107cooper07.html "former Marine and Persian Gulf War veteran, was shot twice in the head by what was believed to be a .45-caliber pistol. The officer was expected to survive" Geez that kinda blows the large-caliber theory... should have used a rifle.. From sjensen at bigfoot.com Wed Nov 7 08:27:34 2001 From: sjensen at bigfoot.com (S. Jensen) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:27:34 Subject: I thought I would tell you.... Message-ID: <200111071426.GAA32557@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4184 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sjensen at bigfoot.com Wed Nov 7 08:27:34 2001 From: sjensen at bigfoot.com (S. Jensen) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:27:34 Subject: I thought I would tell you.... Message-ID: <200111071538.JAA25682@einstein.ssz.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4184 bytes Desc: not available URL: From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 09:12:18 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:12:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Osama Says In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011107171218.63991.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> > Full text (translated into English) of his latest communication: I see. The We Kill Others variety. What is Islam's position on encryption, BTW ? ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Nov 7 09:20:47 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:20:47 -0800 Subject: Microsoft scripting and other "repulsive garbage", redirection Message-ID: <3BE96D6F.4EE7DFE2@sarin.com> http://wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,48177,00.html This is perhaps the most amusing part: "My computer has been totally taken over by disgusting porn ads," Martha Nichols, a secretary in Chicago, said. "A few months ago the browser began spontaneously opening up to a dozen windows displaying triple-X-rated ads every time I entered a website address that couldn't be found. I have five kids, and they were being exposed to this repulsive garbage. I finally had to switch to Netscape to stop the ads." Nichols said that she had never downloaded any programs from adult websites, or even visited such websites. "I don't want to sound like a prude, but I just don't do that sort of thing online. And the computer is in our living room, so I know the kids didn't do it either." From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Wed Nov 7 09:31:54 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:31:54 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: <200111071731.fA7HVs794577@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 10:19 AM 11/7/2001 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > Of course you could connect an automated firearm. (Crime Stoppers Note: > aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list > know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a > shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a > FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. > > ks > Try explaining that to the widow of the fireman who was trying to save your house. ...of course, that's assuming that it works perfectly, with no false returns. Reality rarely matches marketing. The accuracy rates for face recognition are good iff and only iff the subject is cooperating. With your proposed system, if you forgot to take off your sunglasses when you went in the house, you're probably dead. Peter Trei -------------------------------- All professional alarm systems have an "armed state" and "triggered" warning so the property owners can shut it off before any action is taken. I'm sure something appropriate can be devised to handle false IDs. As for the firemen, this would indeed be a weakness. BTW, open source face recognition SW is available from Intel. http://www.intel.com/research/mrl/research/opencv/pr/visionSystemsDesignMag.htm#IntelTop Does anyone know of open source SW which could be adapted for target tracking and fire control? Imagine how feature-face recognition could be married with targeting and anaonymous open broadband wireless access (commuication is encrypted and only used when a possible target match has been identified) to identify, target, authorize and eliminate vermin. OpenJackal anyone? ks From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 7 07:19:25 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:19:25 -0500 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: > keyser-soze at hushmail.com[SMTP:keyser-soze at hushmail.com] > > > Seems those opposed to the coming civil liberties crack down need to start > employing some of the very same technology proposed to corral us. For > starters how about PC FaceCam to punish sneek and peekers? Seems that if > the data base of such a system were programmed to detect entry and > descriminate family members or others who should have legit access to your > property you could use it to deter their searches.(Probably a good idea to > put a good UPS on the PC and FaceCam to thwart power interruptions, though > why they would want to risk causing a tell tale time reset to one of you > appliances I can't imaginge.) > [...] > Of course you could connect an automated firearm. (Crime Stoppers Note: > aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list > know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a > shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a > FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. > > ks > Try explaining that to the widow of the fireman who was trying to save your house. ...of course, that's assuming that it works perfectly, with no false returns. Reality rarely matches marketing. The accuracy rates for face recognition are good iff and only iff the subject is cooperating. With your proposed system, if you forgot to take off your sunglasses when you went in the house, you're probably dead. Peter Trei From declan at well.com Wed Nov 7 07:20:07 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:20:07 -0500 Subject: URL for William Cooper death story In-Reply-To: <100A6572-D341-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net>; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 09:34:07PM -0800 References: <100A6572-D341-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011107102007.A5223@cluebot.com> Here's another article with more detail. Gotta love the SPLC: http://www.arizonarepublic.com/news/articles/1107cooper07.html >"For more than 3 1/2 years, he had been holed up in his house in >Eagar, threatening to kill police officers and federal agents," said >Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center. "He was talked about as >a guy who talked crazy and made a lot of threats. -Declan On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 09:34:07PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > Got the URL for the AP story on William Cooper's death in a midnight > raid: > > http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/breaking/1106deputyshot06-ON.html > > > --Tim May > "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third > hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're > around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Wed Nov 7 09:32:46 2001 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:32:46 -0700 Subject: Entertainingly dangerous spam - Access and use your PC from anywhe Message-ID: From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 7 10:33:01 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:33:01 -0800 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' Message-ID: <3BE97E5D.CC0AEA7E@lsil.com> Anonymous wrote : > >>Form over function. Same as airport security. Psyops. Like the warnings >>to keep people off balance. Should we start a pool to see who can guess >>when ashcruft will put everyone 'on highest alert' next? It'll probably > >The airport security show is clearly designed to intimidate >sheeple. > >From what I saw, the security consists of asking for photo ID 3 >times instead of once (used to be at the check-in counter, now >also when entering security check and at the gate). Mind boggles >trying to understand how these two extra checks help. > >Is there a single documented case of a terrorist *not* having a >proper ID ? Or losing the ID *after* the check-in ? > >The carry-on bagage X-raying and personal inductive test still >fail to detect non-metallic knives, perhaps hidden in the shoes. > >Restaurants at airports still offer metal knives. After the >security check. There are *so* many armed people at airports and >so much more guns that inside jobs become much simpler than >before. No one is going to ID armed man in military fatigue. > >Cockpit doors have better locks now, but I wonder where do pilots >urinate during long flights ? > That Depends... Brings to mind some NYC burglars...you know how you see NYC apartments in movies where there are multiple locks on the door? It's true. Ever seen one of those four-edged keys? Looks like it would be living hell to pick. Well, some burglars found a way around it - they just smashed through the wallboard next to the door. Now I'm not saying that this is exactly what will happen next on an airliner but how much good will all this show of force, new doors, sky marshals and ID checking do if these bastards choose to launch one of those unaccounted-for stingers from somewhere near a flight path over a densely populated area? And before you say it's too tough to get one of those into the country - I think customs checks <5% of incoming containers. And who knows, maybe just a hail of bullets could knock out the turbines... That's the problem with the "homeland security" gig - there are not enough trillions to plug all of the holes in the dike. So what to do? Well, the last four weeks of bombing and money hunting are something. Not much, but something. And before it's labeled prejudice I'm reasonably convinced that the guys who hijacked those flights on 911 were not named smith, schmidt, o'malley, kowalski, suzuki, xing, leclerc, rojas, or running bear. Mainlining petroleum has helped put us at risk. Allowing automotive and petroleum interests to run our country has prevented us from pursuing conservation measures and alternative energy as aggressively as we should have. Were we less dependent on petroleum in general and imported petroleum in particular we would be at lower risk and in a stronger position today. Consumption is just too much fun - until the bill arrives. Management by crisis is always costly. Everyone talks about our being "engaged" in the Middle East - they're wrong - we're bloody well married to it and it's going to be one mother of an expensive divorce. Fuck^H^H^H^HThank you GM, Ford, Chrysler, Exxon, Mobil, BP, reagan, bush, clinton, bush, congress and, most of all, all of us. Mike From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Nov 7 10:38:49 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:38:49 -0800 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us Message-ID: <3BE97FB9.EAFE4B0D@sarin.com> I think people have not quite gotten their hands around the speed at which information can be disseminated online. -Monica Lewinsky, LATimes 9 may 01 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-110701private.story November 7, 2001 Web Mishap: Kids' Psychological Files Posted By CHARLES PILLER, Times Staff Writer Detailed psychological records containing the innermost secrets of at least 62 children and teenagers were accidentally posted on the University of Montana Web site last week in one of the most glaring violations of privacy over the Internet. The 400 pages of documents describe patient visits and offer diagnoses by therapists of mental retardation, depression, schizophrenia and other serious conditions. In nearly all cases, they contain complete names, dates of birth and sometimes home addresses and schools attended, along with results of psychological testing. Unlike a medical file left open on a counter in a doctor's office, these electronic medical records, once placed on the Internet, were exposed to a potentially vast audience. "You're talking about sensitive information that could scar a child for life being available to anyone for any purpose," said Evan Hendricks, editor of Privacy Times newsletter. The mother of an 11-year-old, whose records of an attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder were posted on the university's Web site, was appalled. "He's just a kid, and he shouldn't have his whole life splattered around for the whole world to know. It makes me sick," she said. The mother declined to be identified. She recalled attending her son's therapy sessions and watched the therapist "taking notes in her book, and [I] thought maybe that was the extent of it. I guess I was kind of naive about that." The medical files were placed on the University of Montana Web site Oct. 29 and were available for eight days. The files were removed Monday after a local paper, the Missoulian, reported the story, university officials said. The records were for patients at clinics mainly in Minnesota, as well as in Montana and other states. A University of Montana student or technical employee may have accidentally placed these private files on the Web site, officials said. It is unclear how many people viewed these records. The Montana case is the latest in a series of unauthorized disclosures of medical data over the Internet. Earlier this year, Eli Lilly & Co., maker of the antidepressant Prozac, inadvertently divulged the names and e-mail addresses of 600 psychiatric patients in a mass e-mail. Similarly, Kaiser Permanente last year sent e-mails with confidential medical information to the wrong Kaiser members. "That's the danger with having all of these electronic records," said Daniel B. Borenstein, a former president of the American Psychiatric Assn. and a UCLA professor. "If you push the wrong button or put something in the wrong spot on your Web site, it [can mean] immediate distribution of a massive amount of private medical information," Borenstein said. Last year, a Nevada woman bought a used computer only to find that its previous owner, a drugstore, had left the pharmacy records of thousands of patients on the machine's storage drive. But the buyer did not publicly disclose the records. Also last year, a computer hacker broke into the medical records system at the University of Washington Medical Center and gained access to some 4,000 patient records--although these were not made public. What sets the Montana incident apart is the youth of the patients, the amount of detail disclosed and its placement on a public Web site that allowed complete access to private records. The detailed accounts by therapists reveal children suffering from all manner of emotional problems: "[She] has 'extreme mood swings' and is very aggressive with her sisters and other children," read one file about an 8-year-old girl diagnosed with autism and mental retardation. "She has been cruel to animals, . . . often refuses to eat and will make herself vomit." An 8-year-old boy was described as suffering from "anger outbursts, gender identity issues" and bed-wetting. Raymond Ford, the University of Montana technology manager, said the incident is under investigation. "We have no evidence that this was malicious--all the evidence that we have suggests that the person who uploaded [the patient files] probably had no idea what [he was] doing," he said. But once the records were placed on the school's Web server, a computer that manages its online files, they became available to Internet search engines and were visible to casual Web surfers who requested a keyword contained in a patient's record. For example, a search for "confidential" or "neuropsychological" turned up dozens of these medical records. Those files could then be copied to the computer of any visitor. Therapists whose patients were involved were stunned by the lapse. "I'm shocked. I have no idea how this can happen. Obviously, this information is confidential, and we go to great lengths to keep it confidential," said Bonnie Carlson-Green, a psychologist at Children's Hospital in St. Paul, Minn., the source of some of the patient records. Ford said the university will attempt to tighten its Web security, but that it must depend on users' vigilance and care to restrict private materials. Medical records experts said the university has an ethical obligation to inform the patients' parents. "The least the [university] can do is contact the families and let them know that there was this error and the steps they've taken to correct it," Borenstein said. "There should be special privacy protections for all medical records, even more special protections for disclosure of any psychiatric records," because of a real threat of discrimination against people whose treatment for mental illness becomes known, Borenstein said. Borenstein fears that fewer people will seek treatment if they think their private information may be accidentally disclosed. Many psychiatrists are so concerned about inappropriate electronic disclosure of medical reports that they write only cryptic comments in patient records, trusting the rest to memory, Borenstein said. David Aronofsky, the University of Montana's attorney, said accidental online releases of private legal or medical information are not unusual and are corrected quickly. Patients and medical institutions have not been contacted about the release of these records. They will be contacted if it seems necessary, after the internal investigation is concluded, Aronofsky said. "We're not understating the significance of what happened here, nor are we trying to cover it up," he said. Fiona Anderson, a University of Minnesota psychologist whose patient records were among those released online, said the records may have been removed against her institution's rules. "As things become more electronic and more easily accessed . . . edited and altered, it's difficult for our ethical rules and guidelines to keep up with the technology," she said. But such victims of accidental disclosures face steep legal challenges to gain compensation, said Peter Swire, a law professor who was chief privacy counselor for the Clinton administration. Part of the problem is new, more stringent federal standards for medical records privacy will not take effect until 2003, and state regulations vary widely. Posting a private document online--no matter how injurious it may appear--can cause legal liability only if the victim can prove damages in court. "What if one of the patients has something bad happen to him or her as a result of this disclosure--if they are turned down for a job later in life?" Swire said. "This is where you are open to a [legal] suit." As more medical records are stored digitally, routine electronic disclosure to insurers and health maintenance organizations has increasingly troubled some clinicians and privacy advocates, although such transfers are legal and often required for provider reimbursement. Paul Appelbaum, president-elect of the American Psychiatric Assn., said patients should be given the option of having their information kept on paper. A few health-care providers, such as the Harvard Pilgrim HMO, offer such an option. The alternative for patients may be decreasing control over their medical histories. Appelbaum added: "The mobility of electronic information is almost unlimited." From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 7 10:54:23 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:54:23 -0800 Subject: Plugging leaks In-Reply-To: <3BE94727.836BFAEB@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011107105124.032a65e0@idiom.com> At 06:37 AM 11/07/2001 -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >At 01:46 PM 11/6/01 -0800, A. Melon wrote: > >WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The information that prompted a warning that > >terrorists might target a major Western bridge has been determined to >be > >"not credible," two federal law enforcement officials tell CNN, and the > > >FBI Tuesday is preparing to say no threat exists. > > > >"There just wasn't anything to it," said one official. > >The jihad's leak has been identified and, um, plugged. How do >you say whacked in pashto? Gov Gray is a fine leak >detector, don't believe it when they say soapy water is any better. Nah... While Gray Davis may have some resemblence to soapy water, Melon forgot to enable the Babelfish bureaucratese<->English translator. The FBI spokesman actually said "Wolf? What wolf? You believed that? Hahahahahah!" From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 7 10:54:35 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:54:35 -0800 Subject: URL for William Cooper death story In-Reply-To: <20011107102007.A5223@cluebot.com> References: <100A6572-D341-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> <100A6572-D341-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <200111071600.LAA31864@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> This raises the question of what kind of ruses might be used on others to get them to come out of their fortresses or undo the security system. Here are some that have worked with mafia, terrorists, embezzlers, serial killers, war criminals, dissidents: 1. An interview with a high-profile person or forum. (And sex.) 2. Secret meeting with long-trusted comrade(s). (And sex.) 3. Foray to repair power, water, communication systems. (And sex.) 4. Haircut and massage. (And sex.) 5. Narcotics and/or liquor. (And sex.) 6. Arms replenishment. (And sex.) 7. A wedding of a beloved friend or relative. (And sex.) 8. Medical treatment. (And porno resupply and viagara.) 9. As last resort Mercopan under the door. (Then back to horny hole-up.) All these are used in war time to lure soldiers to their doom Moles and snipers are especially prone. From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 7 10:54:49 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:54:49 -0800 Subject: More silly stuff ( was RE: Enemy at the Door ) Message-ID: <3BE98379.328BB936@lsil.com> keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote : > Of course you could connect an automated firearm. (Crime Stoppers Note: > aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list > know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a > shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a > FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. > > ks > A deadly weapon triggered by unreliable SW using a nonexistant database would just give away the fact that you're on to the enemy and cause you undue legal grief. If your own surveillance remains a secret you're in a stronger position. Besides, should you care to tip your hand you might start with something simpler like indelible purple dye. IIRC human skin has a replacement period of ~3 weeks. Chances are your intruders would be from some local or regional installation. Purple people shouldn't be too tough to spot as they make their way to the office and home again ( unless you live in California ). Your more aggressive tactics could then be employed at a time and place of your choosing. From mv at cdc.gov Wed Nov 7 11:40:48 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:40:48 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 7 11:41:30 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:41:30 -0800 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us In-Reply-To: <3BE97FB9.EAFE4B0D@sarin.com> Message-ID: <710BCB2A-D3B7-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, November 7, 2001, at 10:38 AM, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-110701private.story > The medical files were placed on the University of > Montana Web site Oct. 29 > and were available for eight days. The files were > removed Monday after a local > paper, the Missoulian, reported the story, > university officials said. But the records were snarfed by the usual Web crawlers and archive sites, including many folks who went to the Web site after the report. These 50 kids will find their innermost thoughts and crimes "in their permanent records." When they apply for jobs in 15 years, when they seek political office, when they try to get security clearances. eBlack, the new anonymous bidding service, has an offer for e2400 for a complete set of these files. --Tim May "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 7 11:44:54 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:44:54 -0800 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' In-Reply-To: <3BE97E5D.CC0AEA7E@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011107114454.007ec930@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:33 AM 11/7/01 -0800, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >Mainlining petroleum has helped put us at risk. Allowing automotive and Solution: we just buy oil from other places. Only transient economic effects on us and many fewer body bags. See http://cryptome.org/alqaida-game.htm excerpt: AL- QAIDA S ENDGAME? A STRATEGIC SCENARIO ANALYSIS The following analysis is the product of DSSis strategic analysis team using scenario planning to make sense of the current situation and the war on terrorism. During the course of exploring future scenarios, past events acquired meaning, and the direction of the conflict as desired by Al-Qaida began to make sense. EXECUTIVE SUMMARY DSSis strategic scenario analysis regarding Al-Qaidas endgame leads to the following conclusions about the real current events: The network of networks known as Al-Qaida has successfully laid a trap for the United States. Al-Qaida retains the initiative and the U.S. is operating inside the intentions and plans of Al-Qaida Al-Qaida cannot destroy the U.S. forces inside the U.S., nor can it convince the U.S. to leave the Middle East using terror attacks. The intention of the terror attacks is a provocation to force the U.S. to engage and deploy forces to the Middle East, where such forces could be destroyed The intention and purpose of Al-Qaidas plans are either to make the Middle East ungovernable, or to gain control of the petroleum production system in the region. Application of the oil weapon could be used to attempt to force withdrawal of U.S. presence in the region; outright destruction of the petroleum production system would leave the U.S. with no or greatly reduced real interests in the region Control or destruction of the petroleum production system in the Middle East, and the potential for attacks on global petroleum production, would transform the political situation in the region, initiate a global depression by degrading or destroying critical industries of developing and advanced Nation-States, and drastically shift the geopolitical balance From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 7 11:57:21 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:57:21 -0800 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' References: <3.0.6.32.20011107114454.007ec930@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3BE99221.C39DE017@lsil.com> read it. the alternatives are not quite as cheap or plentiful or accessible as the Middle East and if many oil eaters start looking away from the ME there will be other problems too David Honig wrote: > > At 10:33 AM 11/7/01 -0800, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > > >Mainlining petroleum has helped put us at risk. Allowing automotive and > > Solution: we just buy oil from other places. Only transient > economic effects on us and many fewer body bags. > > See http://cryptome.org/alqaida-game.htm > > excerpt: > > AL- QAIDA S ENDGAME? > A STRATEGIC SCENARIO ANALYSIS > > The following analysis is the product of DSSis strategic analysis team > using scenario planning to make sense of the current > situation and the war on terrorism. During the course of exploring future > scenarios, past events acquired meaning, and the > direction of the conflict as desired by Al-Qaida began to make sense. > > EXECUTIVE SUMMARY > > DSSis strategic scenario analysis regarding Al-Qaidas endgame leads to > the following conclusions about the real current > events: > > The network of networks known as Al-Qaida has successfully laid a > trap for the United States. Al-Qaida retains the > initiative and the U.S. is operating inside the intentions and plans > of Al-Qaida > > Al-Qaida cannot destroy the U.S. forces inside the U.S., nor can it > convince the U.S. to leave the Middle East using > terror attacks. The intention of the terror attacks is a provocation > to force the U.S. to engage and deploy forces to the > Middle East, where such forces could be destroyed > > The intention and purpose of Al-Qaidas plans are either to make the > Middle East ungovernable, or to gain control of > the petroleum production system in the region. Application of the oil > weapon could be used to attempt to force > withdrawal of U.S. presence in the region; outright destruction of the > petroleum production system would leave the U.S. > with no or greatly reduced real interests in the region > > Control or destruction of the petroleum production system in the > Middle East, and the potential for attacks on global > petroleum production, would transform the political situation in the > region, initiate a global depression by degrading or > destroying critical industries of developing and advanced > Nation-States, and drastically shift the geopolitical balance From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 7 12:08:44 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:08:44 -0800 Subject: Sony and Robots...shows how crazy the "anti-hacking" regime has become Message-ID: <3EF840CA-D3BB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Saw this interesting application of the new hardware copyright/anti-tampering/anti-reverse-engineering regime in place" http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011107/tc/sony_robot_hack_1.html excerpt: "Wednesday November 7 2:20 PM ET Pet Robot Owners Mad at Sony By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer TOKYO (AP) - Many owners of the world's most sophisticated robot pet, the cuddly Aibo, are growling at Sony Corp (news - web sites). over its demand that a Web site stop distributing free software that teaches the machine new tricks. ``It was a very stiff legal position Sony took without regard to how it will affect the Aibo community,'' said Richard Walkus, a publishing house employee from Madison, N.J., who owns two Aibo robots but is now putting any new Aibo orders on hold. ``Sony is to some degree undermining its own success.'' In a letter last month, Sony told the owner of the AiboHack site that he was violating its copyright and altering its product without a license. It demanded a long list of Aibo software - including code that taught the machine disco steps and new words - be pulled off the site. --end excerpt-- This shows how crazy the laws have gotten. These robots are essentially computers, and the "hacks" are just new computer programs. Imagine: "Dell has announced they are are suing anyone who makes available software for their machines that Dell did not authorize." "Ford plans to protect its intellectual property by blocking after-market sales of trailer hitches, bed liners, light bulbs, and even motor oil not sold by authorized Ford dealers. "By examining our products and determining how to make things like trailer hitches, these pirates are in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright," said Ford spokesman Jason Natter." If robots cannot be reprogrammed, then neither can all sorts of other electronic gear that people routinely reprogram, improve, take apart, etc. Adding a programmable search function to a shortwave radio, for example, would fall under the same nonsensical terms as the Sony case. ObCypherpunks: I despise the DMCA, but my faith is not in having such laws overturned. In fact, the explosion of new laws is likely unstoppable. However, using technology to thwart traceability (*) is a means of monkeywrenching such laws. (* I wonder if anonymous remailers will someday be classed as "circumvention devices"? We debated this years ago, wondering whether the laws against unauthorized (!) possession of lock-picking tools and "burglar tools" could be used to de facto illegalize remailers.) --Tim May "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -- Nietzsche From hmail at heritagesports.com Wed Nov 7 13:05:01 2001 From: hmail at heritagesports.com (Heritagesports.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:05:01 -0800 Subject: Heritage Sports - Danny Report Message-ID: <245950-220011137215115@heritagesports.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 12327 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mean-green at hushmail.com Wed Nov 7 13:05:20 2001 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:05:20 -0800 Subject: Cash - egold co-op Message-ID: <200111072105.fA7L5Kd61575@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Egold attempts to solve a number of transactional issues, especially non-repudiation. It doesn't directly address privacy concerns. One aspect of establishing financial privacy is unlinkability and one of the best ways to offer that quality is to use bearer instruments during the buy and/or sale of an otherwise trackable transaction. I'd like to invite those with an interest in egold (and other metal backed ecurrencies) to contact me. If there is sufficent interest I'd like to kick off a cash-egold co-op to provide a introduction agency for these activities. I'll be at the Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting this Saturday ready to buy and sell limited amounts of egold. Come bring your web enabled and configured Sprint PCS phone or laptop with wireless link. If you wish to buy or sell more than a few hundred dollars please contact me by Friday. From update at aportis.com Wed Nov 7 13:31:02 2001 From: update at aportis.com (Aportis Updates) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:31:02 -0800 Subject: Get the New AportisDoc Converter Message-ID: <2622079-22001113721312720@aportis.com> **Please do not reply to this email - we will not be able to respond** Get the Brand New AportisDoc Converter ====================================== http://www.aportis.com/store/GetConverter.html We've created the perfect companion for your handheld eBook reader! You have always been able to download from thousands of eBooks on the internet and now, with AportisDoc Converter, you can take your own documents with you! With AportisDoc Converter, you can preview, edit and convert many file formats for use on your handheld. 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You were selected to receive this message because you have used our AportiDoc PDF Converter software. This is a one-time emailing, but if you would like for us to update your email address or to never contact you again, please tell us by at the web page of http://www.aportis.com/contactus.html Sent to: cypherpunks at toad.com **Please do not reply to this email - we will not be able to respond** From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 7 14:23:01 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 14:23:01 -0800 Subject: Sony and Robots...shows how crazy the "anti-hacking" regime has become Message-ID: <3BE9B445.8D26E4B7@lsil.com> Tim May wrote : >Saw this interesting application of the new hardware >copyright/anti-tampering/anti-reverse-engineering regime in place" > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011107/tc/sony_robot_hack_1.html > >This shows how crazy the laws have gotten. These robots are essentially >computers, and the "hacks" are just new computer programs. > >Imagine: > >"Dell has announced they are are suing anyone who makes available >software for their machines that Dell did not authorize." > > >--Tim May > I have my own gripe about this and related items. We've all read about MS's nasty license agreements and how they affect the spread of alternative operating systems. Well, I wanted to pick a decent graphics card that would be well supported under Linux. ATI has a lot of hooplah on their site about how they are Linux-friendly so I started there. The card I tentatively chose was the All-in-Wonder Radeon. It has MPEG2 HW, TV Tuner, Graphics engine, TV out. There is XFREE86 support and there is a project that has video capture working but no matter where I looked I couldn't find technical docs for the thing. Isn't that where most driver projects begin? It's what I've always stared with anyway. So I called their Developer Support number and was told, in spite of the talk about Linux support on the website, that they don't give that technical reference out to just anyone but that some information had been released to the Linux community. I have yet to locate exactly what was released. I know it does not include the register set description for the TVout portion and having seen SW DCT code in project sources I wonder if the HW is being put fully to use. A HW DCT makes a huge difference in performance. The net effect is that Linux development is hobbled. Is this because ATI is protecting some sort of IP? Anyway it kind of ticks me off. So there's more, I'm pretty suspicious of BIOS and MS OS snoopiness. Wouldn't it be nice to have open source BIOS? There is a Sourceforge project called FreeBIOS and a cousin called LinuxBIOS. Again, I like to start with documentation. Well the motherboard mfr offers little in the way of technical info. Same for the chipset mfr. Unless you're a corporate customer. I don't really have a lot of time to reverse engineer this shit but I'm just about mad enough to make time. Mike From popkin at nym.alias.net Wed Nov 7 06:38:01 2001 From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin) Date: 7 Nov 2001 14:38:01 -0000 Subject: enumeration References: Message-ID: <20011107143801.24805.qmail@nym.alias.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1090 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kmself at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 14:50:24 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:50:24 -0800 Subject: Entertainingly dangerous spam - Access and use your PC from anywhe In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@noisebox.remailer.org on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 10:32:46AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20011107145023.N11314@navel.introspect> on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 10:32:46AM -0700, Anonymous (nobody at noisebox.remailer.org) wrote: > Subject: Re: Entertainingly dangerous spam - Access and use your PC from anywhere > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net > > > > I received the following entertaining spam message. > > Their product > > "allows you to securely access and use your office computer > > from any Web browser anytime, anywhere." > > I wonder who else it allows to access from any web browser, anywhere :-) > > > [..] > > GoToMyPC allows you to securely access and use your office computer from > > any Web browser anytime, anywhere. > > > > TELEWORKERS: Work on your office computer from home, easily and > > securely, with just an Internet connection. > > TRAVELERS: Access and use your computer and files from hotels, > > airports, Internet cafes anywhere with Web access. > > AFTER-HOURS ACCESS: Access and use your office desktop, email and > > other corporate resources after hours from any location connected to > > the Internet. > > DEMONSTRATIONS: Invite your prospective buyers to remotely view your > > computer screen for on-the-fly demos. > > > > Download The Free Trial Now! > [..] The feature isn't entirely unlike, say, ssh, or VNC tunneled through same. Poking around the vendor's website indicates that there is some security offered. Note that this doesn't mean that the feature *is* secure, but remote access to computer systems in a controlled manner *is* possible. Naturally, insecure access is also possible, and access via untrusted hardware or software may pose a real risk. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Nov 7 14:57:42 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 14:57:42 -0800 Subject: (Yet more) Not getting it: DoE removes nuke info (not) Message-ID: <3BE9BC66.9BE58A6F@sarin.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20011107/ts/doe_netsecurity011106_1.html The Energy Department stopped access to some of its Web sites containing nuclear site information, citing concern over unusually heavy traffic. The Department of Energy (news - web sites) has shut down access to some of its public Web sites, citing concern over unusually heavy traffic to online information about U.S. nuclear sites. Federal officials shut down the sites on Monday to try to protect information that had been available to the public but could be used by terrorists to launch an attack on U.S. nuclear facilities. Funny, location info is still up; check out your state at http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/reactors/states.html The Indian Point plant has two units in Buchanan, New York, Westchester County. The plant is located on 239 acres in the east bank of the Hudson River, 24 miles north of the New York City boundary. Consolidated Edison was one of the first utilities to purchase their own simulator for training the reactor operators and supervisors licensed by the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Unit 2 Operator: Consolidated Edison Co. Owner: Consolidated Edison Company of New York (100.0%) Reactor Supplier: Westinghouse Corporation Capacity: 941 net MWe Reactor Type: Pressurized water reactor Date of Operation: September 1973 License Expiration date: 09/28/2013 Electricity Produced in 2000: 1.00 billion kWh 2000 Average Capacity Factor: 12.05% Unit 3 Operator: New York Power Authority Owner: New York Power Authority (100.0%) Reactor Supplier: Westinghouse Corporation Capacity: 970 net MWe Reactor Type: Pressurized water reactor Date of Operation: April 1976 License Expiration date: 12/15/2015 Electricity Produced in 2000: 8.41 billion kWh 2000 Average Capacity Factor: 98.66% I think people have not quite gotten their hands around the speed at which information can be disseminated online. -Monica Lewinsky From cripto at ecn.org Wed Nov 7 06:14:54 2001 From: cripto at ecn.org (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:14:54 +0100 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' Message-ID: >Form over function. Same as airport security. Psyops. Like the warnings >to keep people off balance. Should we start a pool to see who can guess >when ashcruft will put everyone 'on highest alert' next? It'll probably The airport security show is clearly designed to intimidate sheeple. >From what I saw, the security consists of asking for photo ID 3 times instead of once (used to be at the check-in counter, now also when entering security check and at the gate). Mind boggles trying to understand how these two extra checks help. Is there a single documented case of a terrorist *not* having a proper ID ? Or losing the ID *after* the check-in ? The carry-on bagage X-raying and personal inductive test still fail to detect non-metallic knives, perhaps hidden in the shoes. Restaurants at airports still offer metal knives. After the security check. There are *so* many armed people at airports and so much more guns that inside jobs become much simpler than before. No one is going to ID armed man in military fatigue. Cockpit doors have better locks now, but I wonder where do pilots urinate during long flights ? From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 7 15:17:06 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:17:06 -0800 Subject: (Yet more) Not getting it: DoE removes nuke info (not) In-Reply-To: <3BE9BC66.9BE58A6F@sarin.com> Message-ID: <8FA97CE4-D3D5-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, November 7, 2001, at 02:57 PM, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20011107/ts/doe_netsecurity011106_1.html > > The Energy Department stopped access to some of its Web sites containing > > nuclear site information, citing concern over unusually heavy traffic. > > The Department of Energy (news - web sites) has shut down > access to some of its public Web sites, citing concern over > unusually heavy traffic to online information about U.S. > nuclear sites. This is very old news. As I reported at the end of September: On Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 09:24 PM, Tim May wrote: I was checking some of my URLs for maps of nuclear power plants, maps once heavily publicized as parts of civil defense preparedness plans from the U.S.G. Guess what? Many of them are gone. The Web caches are not fully useful, as the indexed sites point to the subpages containing the large image GIFs (and other formats). So Google's cache has the first page, but all attempts to access the subpages give the same "information no longer available" sorts of messages. The main Nuclear Regulatory Commission site no longer allows downloading of maps, and results in this message: http://www.nrc.gov/NRC/REACTOR/GEOSPATIAL/lvsites.html Nuclear Site Locations This site is no longer available. For another example, http://www.insc.anl.gov/pwrmaps/map/world_map.html "Unsuccessful Access to INSC Information > --Tim May "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." --John Stuart Mill From declan at well.com Wed Nov 7 12:18:45 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:18:45 -0500 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov>; from mv@cdc.gov on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800 References: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <20011107151845.A12643@cluebot.com> Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... -Declan On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. > > Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + > uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors > check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? From enenkio at webtv.net Wed Nov 7 17:48:20 2001 From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:48:20 -1000 (HST) Subject: Welcome to the EnenKio Online Network Message-ID: <26593-3BE9E464-740@storefull-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Welcome to the EnenKio Online Network These pages, this website, the former web host (NetNation), the government of the Kingdom of EnenKio and the people loyal to the king of Eneen-Kio Atoll have been subjected to a wide assortment of deliberate disruptive actions by persons and agencies of the federal government of the United States. The reasons for these attacks are unknown, as EnenKio seeks only peace and the freedom to express the fundamental rights of the people of EnenKio, its monarch and the imperatives bestowed upon us by our loving Creator. The following site has been restored to acquaint you with history, claims and challenges we face as a people striving for equality in a world of antagonist nations seeking egocentric goals to dominate lesser nations as "savior." ENTER NOW Send questions about this site to Administrator.  Copyright 2001 - All Rights Reserved. Background Photo: Courtesy EnenKio Archives "Peacock Point, Wake Island" Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade Mission DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall Islands http://www.enenkio.org From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Nov 7 16:02:43 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:02:43 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inchoate wrote: > If Hayek were alive today and you asked him... > > "Do you support a business in a free market > refusing to sell to Jews?" > > His answer would have been decidedly in the > negative. Let me get this right. Jimbo is CHANNELING Hayek? Yeah, right. S a n d y "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man." --True Grit (1969) From artcamp at artcamp.com.mx Wed Nov 7 14:41:30 2001 From: artcamp at artcamp.com.mx (Artcamp SC de RL) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 16:41:30 -0600 Subject: Buenos Dias Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011107164103.0216cdf0@www.artcamp.com.mx> Buenos Días. Receive greetings from our rural womens’ artisans cooperative in Guerrero México. Our road as women artisans in the Third World has not been easy in the past years it is hard. we do NOT mind working because it is honest, and necessary in order to support our families. It is still more difficult to sell our products sometimes, because of the costs of reaching the customers; to make a single telephone call to the United States for 20 minutes costs us what we earn in a days work. For this reason we sell mostly to wholesalers, because they purchase our products in larger quantities but we have to have orders constantly, because there is not much profit for us at the prices we sell at. Sometimes it happens that the wholesalers do not pay us at all they just refuse or won’t answer our calls; this does not happen very often but it does happen and this is very costly to us and makes us go backwards. We have been trying to reach the market more directly and so we have developed a website for that purpose; but the Internet site by itself does not solve the problem of how we may sell directly to retailers in the market. Our idea is to perform the part of the wholesaler who sells our product to the stores at profit; however good may be his or her intentions there is necessity to pay salaries and overhead and U.S. taxes and travel expenses Wholesalers have to pay all these costs somehow in order to keep on in business. We are the producers; we are the producers themselves, we transform the materials into the finished product: handcrafted jewelry. the key to our success will be to get a lot of orders to keep down the shipping expense per kilo that way we can ship the product to small customers in a single large container, that is the key. We are going to make an effort to solve the problem of our isolation from the market by creating the wholesaler function at the end of our village-based production system You can be very important in helping this project to succeed; if Artcamp can make the step up to becoming our own wholesalers, then we can get stronger and make a success for everybody. THANK YOU for taking the time to read this message. You can see our pictures modeling our own creations http://www.artcamp.com.mx/XA/18.html and working in our shop http://www.artcamp.com.mx/FG/c13.html Atentamente, Areli, Luz, Yolanda, Hilaria, Tamara, María, Angelica, Esperanza, Rocio, Minerva. and the other women of our cooperative ARTCAMP SC de RL “Artesanas Campesinas” From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Nov 7 16:42:02 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:42:02 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jim, you pompous ass, You wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > > Let me get this right. Jimbo is > > CHANNELING Hayek? Yeah, right. > > Not at all, > > http://www.mises.org/hayekbio.asp > > you should read the books instead of just > trusting other peoples interpretation... > he was decidedly against central or > control economices (ie fascism or > socialism). Of course I've read the books and of course I know he was against centrally planned economies. So what? Read your own stupid post again, moron. Your pretending to know what Hayek would say in your stupid hypothetical about denying service to Jews or whomever, is the height of hubris, you pitiful ignoramus. Have a nice day, S a n d y From kmself at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 16:44:29 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:44:29 -0800 Subject: Minneapolis, Nov 15: Fwd: [free-sklyarov] Bruce Schneier talk In-Reply-To: <20011107093436.A27697@gordo.space.umn.edu>; from crumley@mail.com on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:34:36AM -0600 References: <20011107093436.A27697@gordo.space.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20011107164429.Y11314@navel.introspect> on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:34:36AM -0600, Jim Crumley (crumley at mail.com) wrote: > > Students for Fair Copyright[1] is pleased to announce Bruce Schneier's > talk[2] about the DMCA on Thursday, November 15th at 7:00 in room > 2-690 of the Moos Tower on the University of Minnesota's Minneapolis > campus. This is the third lecture in our continuing series: > "Reclaiming the Public Domain: Intellectual Property in the Digital > Millennium." More details about the talk, including a link to a map to > Moos Tower, are available at the press release link below. > > 1. http://faircopyright.org/ > 2. http://faircopyright.org/press/schneier.html > -- > Jim Crumley | Free Dmitry Sklyarov! > crumley at fields.space.umn.edu | http://faircopyright.org/ > Work: 612 624-6804 or -0378 | http://freesklyarov.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov at zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Nov 7 16:56:24 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:56:24 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Butthead, You wrote: > It's interesting that in lambasting me for > 'knowing what Hayek would say' is EXACTLY > what you're doing. At least I back my > hubris with quotes from Hayeks works. Watch your attribution bonehead. I've not participated in the Hayek discussion at all except to point out your stupid attempt to PREDICT what Hayek WOULD HAVE SAID. Show us your Hyek "denying service to whomever" quotes. Can't, can you? Surrender, Dorothy. S a n d y _____________________________________________________________ If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority? W W \*\ /*/ The Road Kill Group |*| |*| /*////|\\\\*\ |\- (|||||||||||||\((x)\ -======-------------||---:> (|||||||||||||/((x)/ \*\\\\|////*/ |/- |*| |*| /*/ \*\ M M From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:21:53 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:21:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <00bc01c166d9$a76c6600$5300a8c0@marcel> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Marcel Popescu wrote: > You're still incredibly deluded. Even Hayek (bad as he is) would have > supported someone's decision NOT to sell to someone else, your rethoric > notwithstanding. BTW, do you have anything else besides "Tim is wrong"? (And > I'm no fan of Tim.) No, Hayek wouldn't have. Otherwise he wouldn't have been an apponent of regulated economies (in particular both socialist and fascist). Why was he against regulated economies? Because they don't offer the same opportunities to ALL the members of the market (buyer and seller alike). If Hayek were alive today and you asked him, "Do you support a business in a free market refusing to sell to Jews?" His answer would have been decidedly in the negative. Hayek supported 'free choice' for both buyer and seller. Applying a condition of sale to only a segment of the market, as opposed to the whole market (ie "No shirt, no shoes, no sale" versus "No shirt, no shoes, and your ugly, no sale") violates all three of the standards necessary for a free market. Hayek understood something you don't, a business is a public trust. It is not a pure expression of individual freedom. Why? Because it involves more than one party. One has the right to do as you want, UNTIL it effects another. Then they have a say. A business market with only one party is no market. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:23:24 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:23:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Trei, Peter wrote: > Try explaining that to the widow of the fireman who was trying to save your > house. And the house that are adjacent as well... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Wed Nov 7 19:24:57 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 17:24:57 -1000 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107172406.02c2def0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 04:42 PM 11/7/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Jim, you pompous ass, Why not just call him a dumb cunt? Socially, Reese From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:36:17 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:36:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. > > Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + > uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors > check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? You'll also need some servo controller for pan/tilt. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:38:35 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:38:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <20011107151845.A12643@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect > your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a > remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... Nah, just make sure your neighborhood is covered by several community networks like Seattle Wireless, or else put up an illegal packet radio system. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:43:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:43:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sony and Robots...shows how crazy the "anti-hacking" regime has become In-Reply-To: <3EF840CA-D3BB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: This is very old news... On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Saw this interesting application of the new hardware > copyright/anti-tampering/anti-reverse-engineering regime in place" > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011107/tc/sony_robot_hack_1.html > > excerpt: > > "Wednesday November 7 2:20 PM ET > > Pet Robot Owners Mad at Sony > > By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer > > TOKYO (AP) - Many owners of the world's most sophisticated robot pet, > the cuddly Aibo, are growling at Sony Corp (news - web sites). over its > demand that a Web site stop distributing free software that teaches the > machine new tricks. > > ``It was a very stiff legal position Sony took without regard to how it > will affect the Aibo community,'' said Richard Walkus, a publishing > house employee from Madison, N.J., who owns two Aibo robots but is now > putting any new Aibo orders on hold. ``Sony is to some degree > undermining its own success.'' > > In a letter last month, Sony told the owner of the AiboHack site that he > was violating its copyright and altering its product without a license. > It demanded a long list of Aibo software - including code that taught > the machine disco steps and new words - be pulled off the site. > > --end excerpt-- > > This shows how crazy the laws have gotten. These robots are essentially > computers, and the "hacks" are just new computer programs. > > Imagine: > > "Dell has announced they are are suing anyone who makes available > software for their machines that Dell did not authorize." > > "Ford plans to protect its intellectual property by blocking > after-market sales of trailer hitches, bed liners, light bulbs, and even > motor oil not sold by authorized Ford dealers. "By examining our > products and determining how to make things like trailer hitches, these > pirates are in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright," said Ford > spokesman Jason Natter." > > If robots cannot be reprogrammed, then neither can all sorts of other > electronic gear that people routinely reprogram, improve, take apart, > etc. Adding a programmable search function to a shortwave radio, for > example, would fall under the same nonsensical terms as the Sony case. > > ObCypherpunks: I despise the DMCA, but my faith is not in having such > laws overturned. In fact, the explosion of new laws is likely > unstoppable. However, using technology to thwart traceability (*) is a > means of monkeywrenching such laws. > > (* I wonder if anonymous remailers will someday be classed as > "circumvention devices"? We debated this years ago, wondering whether > the laws against unauthorized (!) possession of lock-picking tools and > "burglar tools" could be used to de facto illegalize remailers.) > > > > > --Tim May > "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a > monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also > into you." -- Nietzsche > From declan at well.com Wed Nov 7 14:57:33 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:57:33 -0500 Subject: Sony and Robots...shows how crazy the "anti-hacking" regime has become In-Reply-To: <3EF840CA-D3BB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:08:44PM -0800 References: <3EF840CA-D3BB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011107175733.A15303@cluebot.com> On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:08:44PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > (* I wonder if anonymous remailers will someday be classed as > "circumvention devices"? We debated this years ago, wondering whether > the laws against unauthorized (!) possession of lock-picking tools and > "burglar tools" could be used to de facto illegalize remailers.) Well, it would be trivial for a 'critter to write such a bill (less trivial, though hardly impossible) to get Congress to enact it. It could ban "electronic or computing devices that have as one of their primary purposes the facilitation of circumvention of copyright." Following that is a list of exceptions for general purpose PCs, etc. Anonymous remailers would not, of course, make the list. This is akin to the approach of Hollings' SSSCA. Or just enact a flat ban on remailers without identity escrow. I hosted a talk Monday with Ian Clarke, a very cypherpunkly type of fellow. We had a telecom lawyer show up and went through a brief how-to-shut-down Freenet thought experience. Especially after passage of the USA PATRIOT Act, it's sorta scary, at least for nodes hosted in, shall we say, hostile territory. -Declan From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:58:36 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:58:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Austin Cypherpunks Physical Meet - Tue. Nov. 13 Message-ID: Time: November 13, 2001 Second Tuesday of each month 7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later) Location: Central Market HEB Cafe 38th and N. Lamar Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables. If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside the building proper. Identification: Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography" book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick. Contact Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#austincpunks -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 7 18:02:48 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:02:48 -0800 Subject: kuro5hin.org || An Introduction to Moral Theory Message-ID: <3BE9E7C8.F8FEFF40@lsil.com> The author has neglected to consider the 4th and 5th frameworks : BIGSTICKOLOGY. Wherein the existence of a disagreement defines the entire situation independent of the reference frameworks or the specific arguments of the participants and he with the biggest stick decides the moral question. THIRDPARTYBIGGERSTICKOLOGY. Wherin a third party, completely uninterested in the moral dilemma faced by the parties of the first and second part, has a bigger stick than either of them and resolves their moral dilemma by altering completely the moral landscape from which the contest arose in the first place rendering the arguments and opinions of the first and second parties irrelevant. Plus there could be a SIXTH and hitherto undiscovered framework. Dammit Jim, post reviews not just links. Mike From stevet at sendon.net Wed Nov 7 10:11:13 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:11:13 +0000 Subject: URL for Timothy May death story References: Message-ID: <200111071840.SAA16558@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Nomen Nescio (nobody at dizum.com): > APTOS - One of the country's most influential anarchist internet > activists was killed early Tuesday in a hail of gunfire when law officers > tried to arrest him on a warrant accusing him of aggravated assault. > > Timothy C. May, 50, whose apocalyptic, anti-government internet postings > were a major influence on Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, was > shot to death after May shot and critically wounded a Santa Cruz County > sheriff's deputy who had tried to arrest him, officers said. > > Sandy Sandfort, a Bay Area lawyer and friend of May, said he didn't > think the police operation was unjustified. > > "I think Tim just went nuts. He was looking for martyrdom anyway and > swore he would never surrender," Sandfort said. "They had him dead to > rights on the aggravated assault." > > "He had vowed that he would not be taken alive," said Tom McCombs, > a spokesman for the U.S. Marshal's Service in Santa Cruz. > > A spokesman for a group that tracks anarchists said the shooting wasn't > surprising given May's history. In addition to his postings, he was > known within the anarchist movement for an influential document called > the Cyphernomicon, in which he wrote about overthrowing governments. > > "For more than 3 1/2 years, he had been holed up in his house in > Corralitos, threatening to kill police officers and federal agents," > said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center. "He was talked about > as a guy who talked crazy and made a lot of threats. The reality is that > people like him are frequently exceedingly dangerous." My condolances to Mr. May's family. He will be missed. Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:25:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:25:48 -0600 Subject: The Register - ICANN scraps conference agenda, goes big on security Message-ID: <3BE9D10C.3B04F6E4@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/22695.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:33:46 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:33:46 -0600 Subject: kuro5hin.org || An Introduction to Moral Theory Message-ID: <3BE9D2EA.D80413B0@ssz.com> http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/11/6/194745/177 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Wed Nov 7 20:34:30 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:34:30 -1000 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107172406.02c2def0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107183400.02ae6980@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 09:31 PM 11/7/01 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > >On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> At 04:42 PM 11/7/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >> >Jim, you pompous ass, >> >> Why not just call him a dumb cunt? > >Because thats *your name*, you dumb cunt. Fuck you. ;) Reese From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:39:28 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:39:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Let me get this right. Jimbo is CHANNELING Hayek? Yeah, right. Not at all, http://www.mises.org/hayekbio.asp you should read the books instead of just trusting other peoples interpretation...he was decidedly against central or control economices (ie fascism or socialism). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 7 09:40:14 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:40:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: URL for Timothy May death story Message-ID: APTOS - One of the country's most influential anarchist internet activists was killed early Tuesday in a hail of gunfire when law officers tried to arrest him on a warrant accusing him of aggravated assault. Timothy C. May, 50, whose apocalyptic, anti-government internet postings were a major influence on Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, was shot to death after May shot and critically wounded a Santa Cruz County sheriff's deputy who had tried to arrest him, officers said. Sandy Sandfort, a Bay Area lawyer and friend of May, said he didn't think the police operation was unjustified. "I think Tim just went nuts. He was looking for martyrdom anyway and swore he would never surrender," Sandfort said. "They had him dead to rights on the aggravated assault." "He had vowed that he would not be taken alive," said Tom McCombs, a spokesman for the U.S. Marshal's Service in Santa Cruz. A spokesman for a group that tracks anarchists said the shooting wasn't surprising given May's history. In addition to his postings, he was known within the anarchist movement for an influential document called the Cyphernomicon, in which he wrote about overthrowing governments. "For more than 3 1/2 years, he had been holed up in his house in Corralitos, threatening to kill police officers and federal agents," said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center. "He was talked about as a guy who talked crazy and made a lot of threats. The reality is that people like him are frequently exceedingly dangerous." From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:42:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:42:37 -0600 Subject: The Friedrich Hayek Quote Page Message-ID: <3BE9D4FD.9BFB741B@ssz.com> http://www.hayekcenter.org/friedrichhayek/hayekquote.htm I'm still waiting for one of you self-professed C-A-C-L geniuses to provide a quote or cite in Hayek's work to support your view. If I'm so wrong in my interpretation it should be trivial for you to do so... -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:53:39 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:53:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Hayek quotes Message-ID: Liberty not only means that the individual has both the opportunity and the burden of choice; it also means that he must bear the consequences of his actions. Liberty and responsibility are inseperable. "The Constitution of Liberty" I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the judicial safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice. "Economic Freedom and Representative Government" -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 7 16:53:59 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:53:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Minneapolis, Nov 15: Fwd: [free-sklyarov] Bruce Schneier talk In-Reply-To: <20011107164429.Y11314@navel.introspect> Message-ID: Fuck Bruce Schneier. On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:44:29 -0800 > From: Karsten M. Self > Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > To: Cypherpunks List > Subject: CDR: Minneapolis, Nov 15: Fwd: [free-sklyarov] Bruce Schneier talk > > on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:34:36AM -0600, Jim Crumley (crumley at mail.com) > wrote: > > > > Students for Fair Copyright[1] is pleased to announce Bruce Schneier's > > talk[2] about the DMCA on Thursday, November 15th at 7:00 in room > > 2-690 of the Moos Tower on the University of Minnesota's Minneapolis > > campus. This is the third lecture in our continuing series: > > "Reclaiming the Public Domain: Intellectual Property in the Digital > > Millennium." More details about the talk, including a link to a map to > > Moos Tower, are available at the press release link below. > > > > 1. http://faircopyright.org/ > > 2. http://faircopyright.org/press/schneier.html > > -- > > Jim Crumley | Free Dmitry Sklyarov! > > crumley at fields.space.umn.edu | http://faircopyright.org/ > > Work: 612 624-6804 or -0378 | http://freesklyarov.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > free-sklyarov mailing list > > free-sklyarov at zork.net > > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > > -- > Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ > What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave > http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free > Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org > Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html > > [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:56:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:56:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Jim, you pompous ass, There's the pot calling the kettle black... > Of course I've read the books and of course I know he was against centrally > planned economies. So what? He was against more than 'planned economies'. Apparently you didn't read the books as well as you believe, or else you only remember what serves yoru personal goals. Either way, it's a skewed perspective. > Read your own stupid post again, moron. Your > pretending to know what Hayek would say in your stupid hypothetical about > denying service to Jews or whomever, is the height of hubris, you pitiful > ignoramus. Sticks and stones. It's interesting that in lambasting me for 'knowing what Hayek would say' is EXACTLY what you're doing. At least I back my hubris with quotes from Hayeks works. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From WWolfDrafting at cs.com Wed Nov 7 16:07:50 2001 From: WWolfDrafting at cs.com (WWolfDrafting at cs.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:07:50 EST Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <20.1e9fa382.291b26d6@cs.com> Hi, I'm looking for the words to the poem "Sarah Cynthia Slvia Stout would not take the garbage out". I last heard it on Dr. Dimento about 1973. Got any ideas??? thanks, Lori From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 7 17:57:34 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:57:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: So, do we bomb south america??? Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/11/07/inv.terror.south/index.html ... Sources tell CNN they believe the tri-border area is being used as a haven and source of funding for terrorists linked to Iran's Party of God, and to organizations that work closely with Osama bin Laden. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Wed Nov 7 11:12:05 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:12:05 +0100 Subject: Osama Says Message-ID: <15c7f9d1ea83e5917d5c78f12e11c7e2@mix.winterorbit.com> >Full text (translated into English) of his latest communication: He should keep his mouth shut. Or at least copyright his speeches and prevent unauthorised translations. He seems to be a cross between primitive religious dickhead of the TV-evangelist sort and a texan politician. But he never got his show, so ... The fact that a bigot like this can attract some sympathies from the "west" dissidents (and that's what most cpunks are) tells how bad it became in our cherished western part of the world. From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Nov 7 20:17:17 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:17:17 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107172406.02c2def0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > Message-ID: Reese wrote: > At 04:42 PM 11/7/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >Jim, you pompous ass, > > Why not just call him a dumb cunt? Reese might have a point here. When Reese uses a derogatory term for women, he demeans all women. By calling Jimbo a pompous ass, I am demeaning all donkeys. S a n d y From mattd at useoz.com Wed Nov 7 01:36:10 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 20:36:10 +1100 Subject: WILLIAM COOPER american martyr Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011107202243.00a28e30@pop.useoz.com> Sympathies,solidarities with family,friends and fellow free spirits.I feel deeply saddened by this news.Dark times. Special best wishes to tim,I cant imagine his feelings now and for my own balance wouldnt want to. The psychology,preparation,training and methods of the french resistance might distract us from our grief. Commiserations comrades."Send not to know... From ocorrain at esatclear.ie Wed Nov 7 12:59:08 2001 From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiarn=E1n=20=D3=20Corr=E1in=20?=) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:59:08 +0000 Subject: Osama Says In-Reply-To: <20011107171218.63991.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011107171218.63991.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200111072058.UAA13807@wonka.esatclear.ie> On Wednesday 07 November 2001 17:12, Morlock Elloi wrote: > > Full text (translated into English) of his latest communication: > > I see. The We Kill Others variety. > > What is Islam's position on encryption, BTW ? Several of the oldest cryptological (and cryptographic) texts were written by Arab mathematicians. You should be able to find references with Google. Tiarnan -- Tiarnán Ó Corráin Alliance: In international politics, the union of two thieves who have their hands so deeply inserted in each other's pocket that they cannot separately plunder a third. -- Ambrose Bierce From faustine at lokmail.net Wed Nov 7 18:11:54 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 21:11:54 -0500 Subject: DoD WMD Terrorism Panel: open meeting Message-ID: <200111080211.VAA18364@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2614 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 11:22:47 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:22:47 +0200 Subject: URL for William Cooper death story References: <3BE95652.49C84A26@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <015701c167c1$9591bd70$5300a8c0@marcel> > "former Marine and Persian Gulf War veteran, was > shot twice in the head by what was believed to be a .45-caliber pistol. > The officer was expected to survive" > > Geez that kinda blows the large-caliber theory... should have used > a rifle.. Nah, he was a cop, he wasn't using the brain anyway... Mark From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 7 19:31:25 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:31:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107172406.02c2def0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > At 04:42 PM 11/7/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >Jim, you pompous ass, > > Why not just call him a dumb cunt? Because thats *your name*, you dumb cunt. > Socially, > > Reese -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 19:34:41 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:34:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: wireless modems In-Reply-To: <20011108021241.8695C528DC@smtp.cronos.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 @einstein.ssz.com wrote: > Is there any good info out there to snag wireless modems off UHF and simply > recieve not handshake? I just want to recieve. thanks If you want 802.11b then look into AirSnort -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 7 12:40:04 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:40:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us Message-ID: <4c4eed4b242253b2e03be1305750919f@dizum.com> Tim May: > These 50 kids will find their innermost thoughts and crimes "in their > permanent records." When they apply for jobs in 15 years, when they seek > political office, when they try to get security clearances. > > eBlack, the new anonymous bidding service, has an offer for e2400 for a > complete set of these files. And yet we expect airport screeners to ignore past acts of terrorism by a wild-eyed fanatic boarding a plan, and observe strict neutrality, spending not one second more on him than on the guy taking the wife and kids to see grandma. The airport guards are supposed to forget the past and rely only on what limited information they can gather in the few seconds they have for inspection. Anybody notice the inconsistency here? Why support data repositories to keep people's past transgressions alive, while calling for willful ignorance on the part of those charged with protecting the lives of the flying public? Information is good. More is better. Airport security should know everything possible about those boarding the planes. Blacknet will gladly make the data available, for a fee. Neither Tim May nor anyone else can stop the flow of information. From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 7 22:06:14 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:06:14 -0800 Subject: kuro5hin.org || An Introduction to Moral Theory In-Reply-To: <3BE9E7C8.F8FEFF40@lsil.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107220520.03a07cf8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:02 PM 11/7/2001 -0800, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >The author has neglected to consider the 4th and 5th frameworks : > >BIGSTICKOLOGY. Wherein the existence of a disagreement defines the >entire situation independent of the reference frameworks or the specific >arguments of the participants and he with the biggest stick decides the >moral question. > >THIRDPARTYBIGGERSTICKOLOGY. Wherin a third party, completely >uninterested in the moral dilemma faced by the parties of the first and >second part, has a bigger stick than either of them and resolves their >moral dilemma by altering completely the moral landscape from which the >contest arose in the first place rendering the arguments and opinions of >the first and second parties irrelevant. I think this was the story line behind "The Day the Earth Stood Still". steve From holdingint at GBFJ.hotmail.com.toad.com Wed Nov 7 22:10:09 2001 From: holdingint at GBFJ.hotmail.com.toad.com (holdingint at GBFJ.hotmail.com.toad.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:10:09 -0800 Subject: cypherpunks-unedited,is that true? -HXHN Message-ID: <200111080610.WAA03835@ecotone.toad.com> "REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS BELOW" Hi cypherpunks-unedited, this is Dan Holding . I've been teaching people how to achieve financially freedom for the last 10 years. so cypherpunks-unedited, if you are still serious about that read on... Last month I introduced new people, just like you, and they've already made between $300 and $1250 in their first month! The beauty of that income is that it's residual income so it comes back every month just like a royalty... And the best part is! "YOU" can achieve that as well, regardless of your background or education. Why am I so sure?.. Because I've got a Formula that works like a cookie cutter. So simple that even my 12 year old niece could do it but the fact of the matter is she's not at legal age. Imagine yourself making residual income from home, from behind your computer... Did you know that the average home business generates over $50.000 in annual income? That means no boss anymore, no Monday morning blues, extra vacations, extra money instead of lack of money, not having to say "I can't afford it" to your kids, free time, and more importantly, the FREEDOM of being your own boss without the stress most corporate dude's have... If you can see yourself in that position, if you are still serious, and you haven't given up on your self, then send me an Email and I'll share this simple secret "How You Too Can Capitalize On The Home Based Business Trend." Email me at: holdingint at hotmail.com and write: "Dan, send me more info" in the Subject Line together with your name in the body. You will receive an Email with more information immediately. DO NOT reply to this e-mail! (Please only mail me if you're serious) Sincerely, Dan Holding P.S. If you act fast I'll let you test drive my formula 100%FREE. That's how confident I am that you'll succeed. There's nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Email me at: holdingint at hotmail.com and write: "Dan, send me more info" in the Subject Line together with your name in the body. This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill section 301. Under Bill S. 1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress. This message cannot be considered Spam as long as we include the way to be removed, Paragraph (a)(c) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by Replying to this message with REMOVE in the subject. From ocorrain at esatclear.ie Wed Nov 7 14:22:22 2001 From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiarn=E1n=20=D3=20Corr=E1in=20?=) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:22:22 +0000 Subject: Arab/Muslim contributions to crypto In-Reply-To: <200111072058.UAA13807@wonka.esatclear.ie> References: <20011107171218.63991.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> <200111072058.UAA13807@wonka.esatclear.ie> Message-ID: 'The Origins of Cryptology: The Arab contributions', by Ibrahim A Al-Kadi Cryptologia, volume 16, no 2 (April 1992), pages 97-126. A discussion of recently discovered Arab manuscripts. http://www.networkcomputing.com/netdesign/1007part1comp.html Ever since man started communicating with one another, there has been a need to keep secrets. Cryptography is defined as the principles, means, and methods for rendering information unintelligible, and for restoring the encrypted information back into intelligible form. In other words, cryptography is the science of writing in secret. Examples of cryptography have been discovered in the writings of Egyptians over 4,000 years ago. The ancient Greek, Chinese, and Roman civilizations used surprisingly advanced cryptography techniques. The use of cryptography, and the analysis of cryptography (cryptoanalysis), flourished in the Arab world during the Middle Ages. While lovers and theologians have long made use of secret messages, the overwhelming use of secret writing has historically been in diplomacy and the military. http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/11/07/reviews/991107.07ossermt.html The first big breakthrough in decipherment was made in the ninth century by the Arab philosopher al-Kindi in a treatise only recently rediscovered. For a thousand years or more, a message coded in a random monoalphabetic cipher was considered undecipherable unless one had the key to the code. Remember, 'algorithm' and 'algebra' are Arabic in origin. -- Tiarnán Ó Corráin Alliance: In international politics, the union of two thieves who have their hands so deeply inserted in each other's pocket that they cannot separately plunder a third. -- Ambrose Bierce From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 7 22:25:01 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:25:01 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: References: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107221946.05257e80@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:01 PM 11/7/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > > DSL line could be clear across town. > >Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred >yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking >directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does >that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, >gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" At 2.4 GHz there is little need for a parabolic to achieve 12dB or more gain. Small, flat, slot and yaggis may be constructed on circuit boards and placed in innocuous enclosures and even hidden in walls. >If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else >use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). 10-20 dB amps for 2.4 are readily available and relatively inexpensive. steve From wolf at priori.net Wed Nov 7 22:36:43 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:36:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Item from another list qouted without comment In-Reply-To: <801F78C0-D352-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Yep, it looks like Agent Farr all right--I recognize her fractured, > incomprehensible style. Perhaps it's a steganographic communique. > Agent Farr wants "guys doing surreptitious entry" to have "better > recognition training." > > Not surprising, but it ought to convince even the charitable amongst us > who wanted to give "Aimee Farr" the benefit of the doubt that she/he is > clearly advising LEOs. Yes, well. So is anyone posting information from which LEOs would benefit to public mailing lists known to be monitored by those LEOs. -MW- From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 7 20:45:14 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:45:14 -0600 Subject: Enemy at the Door References: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> <20011107151845.A12643@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That DSL line could be clear across town. Declan McCullagh wrote: > Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect > your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a > remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... > > -Declan > > On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > > >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. > > > > Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + > > uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors > > check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Thu Nov 8 00:54:21 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:54:21 -1000 Subject: Fwd: more on Nancy Oden Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107224724.00d6bb30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Sorry Sandy, I got it right the first time - it is not an insult to all other women because I specifically identified her, I did not make a general statement about all women - pc-ism be damned. ****************************************************** The following message was posted to [a list] ****************************************************** Hi all, I hate talking about individuals on a list like this, but the misleading statements being put out by one Nancy Oden need rapid rumor control. Defending her half-truths would make us look silly. I got to meet Nancy three years ago when she was in Seattle for the national committee meeting of the activist organization known as "the Greens/Green Party USA," which should not be confused with the national electoral organization, "the Green Party of the United States," which nominated Ralph Nader for President and helped get him on the ballot in 44 states. Nancy was incredibly rude to her fellow activists. She talked endlessly about how mean the Maine Green Party had been to her, and about how evil the Greens from "that other Green organization" were. I dismissed her as a run-of-the-mill kook. Then, this past spring, she somehow got elected to the three-member Coordinating Committee of G/GPUSA. Her tenure involved a string of 2-1 decisions taking authority away from the larger Green National Committee, and shutting down various processes in the bylaws that were used to try to overrule her. Eleven of the 13 state parties then affiliated with G/GPUSA had called for a membership referendum on the "Boston Proposal for Unity." (Only six are needed to call such a referendum.) Nancy used her power on the CC to prevent any money being spent to hold the referendum, and continually threatened to fire the two staffers who were trying their best to obey the bylaws. To say that Nancy was abusive toward the staff would be an understatement. When the pro-unity supermajority was unable to ever get a vote called on the Boston Proposal, most of the state parties started disaffiliating. G/GPUSA is now down to four state parties, two of which are still in the process of disaffiliation. Meanwhile, GP-US, which is expected to finally be recognized as "the national committee of the Green Party" by the Federal Elections Commission some time in the next two weeks, has 33 affiliated state parties. Nancy Oden got elected to the G/GPUSA CC on a platform of "real democracy, where We the People ..." Instead, she ran the organization with an iron fist and sent nearly everyone fleeing to more productive ground. Nancy's latest heavy-handed rhetoric does not match up with what I've been reading in the Bangor news. She was not targeted at the airport because she was a leader of the G/GPUSA. She was targeted because she was rude to the security officers. Indeed, the FBI say they had no idea who she was. Other Green Party leaders have had no trouble whatsoever flying. Nancy was not banned from flying. She was simply not allowed to fly that day. Nancy said she did not put up resistance to having her purse searched (a standard procedure long before 9/11) or personal search. She just went crazy at the metal-detecting wand. I know Nancy well enough to know why she would freak out at the use of such a radioactive instrument around her body. She is a long-time anti-nuke activist. We risk delegitimizing ourselves by defending Nancy Oden's hysterical account of airport security. We'd also be causing more well-intentioned Green-Party-activist wannabes to go to G/GPUSA's web site and pay dues to G/GPUSA, not knowing that it is not the national Green Party that put together the convention in Denver and nominated Ralph Nader for president. If GP-US puts out a press release today, I hope it presents a more balanced account of what really happened between Nancy and airport security, and points out that Nancy's organization is *not* the national Green Party. Sorry to rag on fellow activists. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 20:54:47 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:54:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: More silly stuff ( was RE: Enemy at the Door ) In-Reply-To: <8f26ad84c9722c744bfa605ffc7dac5d@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Much funnier would be a spray of DMSO mixed with DMT. And reapplyed evertime Pihkal -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From karen.ryan12 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 14:54:54 2001 From: karen.ryan12 at yahoo.com (Karen Ryan) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:54:54 -0000 Subject: Try this on your mobile! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 25034 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 20:57:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:57:12 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Sources: Middle Eastern terrorists have South American link - November 7, 2001 Message-ID: <3BEA10A8.E5C8CE94@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/11/07/inv.terror.south/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 20:57:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:57:55 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Powell says U.S. will deal with Iraq eventually - November 7, 2001 Message-ID: <3BEA10D3.71A27A8F@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/07/ret.powell.iraq/ -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:01:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:01:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > DSL line could be clear across town. Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:02:09 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:02:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: Turkmenistan Travel Warning (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:28:04 -0500 From: PA List Manager To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV Subject: Turkmenistan Travel Warning Travel Warning United States Department of State Bureau of Consular Affairs Washington, DC 20520 TURKMENISTAN November 6, 2001 The Department of State urges U.S. citizens to defer travel to Turkmenistan at this time. While the Department of State has authorized the return of embassy personnel in non-emergency positions and family members of embassy personnel effective November 6, 2001, the September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States and the proximity of Turkmenistan to Afghanistan have raised ongoing concerns for the safety of American citizens in Turkmenistan. Afghanistan is the site of military operations and continues to harbor international terrorist Usama bin Laden. The U.S. Embassy in Ashgabat will continue to employ heightened security precautions. All American citizens in Turkmenistan are urged to review their personal security situations and to take those measures they deem appropriate to ensure their well-being. The Government of Turkmenistan has taken steps to increase security throughout the country. Nevertheless, the current situation in the region requires that all Americans in or traveling through Turkmenistan evaluate carefully the implications for their security and safety. Americans who decide to remain in or visit Turkmenistan should exercise caution and take all appropriate measures to ensure their personal safety and monitor the local news. U.S. citizens in Turkmenistan are strongly urged to register and obtain updated security information at the American Embassy in Ashgabat. The U.S. Embassy is located at 9 Pushkin Street, off Maqtymquly Street. The telephone number is 993-12-35-00-45, fax number 993-12-51-13-05. For further general information regardinq travel to Turkmenistan, U.S. citizens should consult the Department of State's Consular Information Sheet on Turkmenistan, available via the Internet at http://travel.state.gov. This Travel Warning supersedes the Travel Warning of September 19, 2001 and alerts Americans to ongoing security concerns in Turkmenistan and to the discontinuation of the authorized (voluntary) departure status of non-emergency personnel and family members of U.S. Embassy personnel. *********************************************************** See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for State Department Travel Warnings ************************************************************ To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs_cms.html From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:05:43 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:05:43 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - U.S. wants new sanctions against Iraq - November 7, 2001 Message-ID: <3BEA12A7.2F3A7788@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/07/gen.us.iraq.sanctions/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 7 23:10:13 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:10:13 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <20011108003130.E1579@die.com> References: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107225622.053c5470@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:31 AM 11/8/2001 -0500, Dave Emery wrote: >On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:01:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > > > Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > > > DSL line could be clear across town. > > > > Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred > > yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking > > directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does > > that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, > > gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" > > > > If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else > > use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). > > > > I have read reports of people running WiFi links of up to 20 >miles. Given a clear path (clear line of sight) and relatively modest >sized directional antennas (not huge suspicious looking dishes) which >can be concealed under rf transparent radomes (hidden in an attic for >example with appropriate (fiberglass) roofing or siding, or behind a >glass picture window with curtains drawn) getting 10 to 20 mile ranges >is pretty easy with gain antennas on either end... not rocket science >either... and quite hard to spot visually (though of course a spectrum >analyzer with good preamps and antennas will find and locate any hidden >802.11 link in no time flat - one cannot radiate rf from a fixed >location and not be easily found using common TSCM tools). While I agree that spotting a low process gain, large, signal is straightforward with simple TSCM, locating a low power, high process gain signal (especially one which uses channel estimation techniques prior to transmission, for example "Low probability of intercept communication system," US Pat. No. 5,029,184) can thwart most TSCM tools. steve From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:12:06 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:12:06 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | Operation Acoustic Kitty Message-ID: <3BEA1426.DD6B40F6@ssz.com> I want whatever these guys are smoking... http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/07/2258212.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:13:46 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:13:46 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | EFF To Defend Music Swapping Service MusicCity Message-ID: <3BEA148A.F727FBF2@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/07/1648244.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:15:21 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:15:21 -0600 Subject: The Register - Linux security self-censorship ominous Message-ID: <3BEA14E9.D708DEED@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/22712.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From blancw at cnw.com Wed Nov 7 23:16:38 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:16:38 -0800 Subject: kuro5hin.org || An Introduction to Moral Theory In-Reply-To: <3BE9E7C8.F8FEFF40@lsil.com> Message-ID: Jim, stop posting those long articles to the list! Those little excerpts don't give a clue to the rest of the content, dammit! Jim, the headers don't match the links. Jim, stop posting old links. Dammit, those links are inaccurate, Jim. Dammit Jim, post reviews not, just links. Jim - will you wash my car . . . .. Blanc From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:16:58 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:16:58 -0600 Subject: Guardian Unlimited | Special reports | Bin Laden network 'plotted hundreds of attacks' Message-ID: <3BEA154A.695BC804@ssz.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,589675,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 7 21:29:14 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:29:14 -0600 Subject: Enemy at the Door References: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> <20011107151845.A12643@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011107235015.0228ce20@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3BEA17DA.FE54EFBC@cybershamanix.com> As someone else mentioned, "Seattle Wireless" scenario, or some form of packet radio, or .... Which broadband line would they disconecct? And what would those people think? Gee, the stock market T1 just went down. Anyway, so it's broadcasting 802, and the perps already know all the possible receivers? Now, maybe they could start jamming 802 -- or all the possible frequencies --- 8-) Duh! Declan McCullagh wrote: > Fortunately I do not lack the ability to comprehend modern English, but I > do lack the ability to read into a statement what is not there. Even if > your suggestion was intended, that DSL line could be shut down as well, > which was the point my response was intended to address. > > -Declan > > At 10:45 PM 11/7/2001 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: > >Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > >DSL line could be clear across town. > > > > > >Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > > Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect > > > your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a > > > remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... > > > > > > -Declan > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > > > > >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. > > > > > > > > Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + > > > > uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors > > > > check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? > > > >-- > >Harmon Seaver, MLIS > >CyberShamanix > >Work 920-203-9633 > >Home 920-233-5820 > >hseaver at cybershamanix.com > >http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From specialoffers at freesamples.com Wed Nov 7 23:40:35 2001 From: specialoffers at freesamples.com (specialoffers at freesamples.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:40:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Samples Message-ID: <200111080740.fA87eZI28768@mail2.freesamples.com> PLAIN TEXT VERSION Dear Richard : Greetings from FreeSamples.com, where you choose the samples you want and have them shipped to you absolutely free! We'd like to gather a bit of information which could help make more samples available to you. Please got to the following URL and answer the questions. It's that easy! http://www.freesamples.com/emailfeedback/hair1.cfm?userid=50570054 Sincerely, Your Friends at FreeSamples.com Fun For The Taking! When you registered, you indicated you would like to receive information about special offers from our partners. To avoid receiving future notifications of special offers, please login to http://www.FreeSamples.com?v=pe2 and go to the My Preference page to update your preferences. This message was sent from a send only email address, please do not reply to this email. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6899 bytes Desc: not available URL: From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 7 21:42:07 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:42:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > And yet we expect airport screeners to ignore past acts of terrorism > > > by a wild-eyed fanatic boarding a plan, > > > > I don't recall anybody being required to do that. Quite a stretch, > > unless you can cite an example. > > Read this from Tim May, November 3: > > It really is no business of government to know the identities of those > whose bags/etc. they are checking. Having government able to single out > some travellers for special processing is a recipe for this kind of > mischief. > > BTW, the _wrong_ tack to take would be some argument about a "right to > travel," some over-ruling of Southwest's or United's right to pick its > customers as it wishes. The preferred approach should be to have no ID > at the _security_ checkpoint and to not have any laws requiring ID tied > to tickets. > > He suggests having no ID or other history information available to > help screeners make their decision, nothing but whatever clues can be > gleaned in the brief moments available. Anybody want to fly *those* > friendly skies? I will. As long as the folks on my flight have been screened for weaponry, I don't give a fuck if they ar Pol Pot, Georgie Bush (I/II), or OJ Simpson. Even mass murderers (like the above list) should be able to fly if they are weapon-free. How would knowing Bush's _identity_ help to prevent him from killing people? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 7 21:45:47 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:45:47 -0600 Subject: Enemy at the Door References: Message-ID: <3BEA1BBA.C539EC9F@cybershamanix.com> Go tell that to the Seattle/Portland/wherever wireless people. Or the people in rural MN who are putting them up on silos and running a 10 mile radius. Totally depends on your topography. And even with p-p they aren't doing parabolics, more like yagi directionals, which could be just another TV antenna, cut to the harmonic. Gee, maybe they'll start raiding home with TV antennas. Jim Choate wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > > DSL line could be clear across town. > > Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred > yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking > directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does > that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, > gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" > > If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else > use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. > > Bumper Sticker > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:48:44 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:48:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <20011108003130.E1579@die.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Dave Emery wrote: > I have read reports of people running WiFi links of up to 20 > miles. ONLY with a high gain parabolic. Not with a omni. Further, all it takes to find the other dish is look down that line of site. They're cheap cards, less than $100 each. The 802.11a, which are higher frequency, higher bandwidth came out last month. The AP's are supposed to hit the street on or right after the 15'th of this month. I'm going with 802.11a myself. The 'b' stuff seems a tad to kid toyish to me. YMMV. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Wed Nov 7 20:51:03 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:51:03 -0500 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> References: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> <20011107151845.A12643@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107235015.0228ce20@mail.well.com> Fortunately I do not lack the ability to comprehend modern English, but I do lack the ability to read into a statement what is not there. Even if your suggestion was intended, that DSL line could be shut down as well, which was the point my response was intended to address. -Declan At 10:45 PM 11/7/2001 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: >Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That >DSL line could be clear across town. > > >Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect > > your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a > > remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... > > > > -Declan > > > > On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > > > >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. > > > > > > Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + > > > uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors > > > check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? > >-- >Harmon Seaver, MLIS >CyberShamanix >Work 920-203-9633 >Home 920-233-5820 >hseaver at cybershamanix.com >http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:59:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:59:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BEA1BBA.C539EC9F@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Go tell that to the Seattle/Portland/wherever wireless people. Don't have to, see the commentary about 'if...directional...' Yagi's won't do that sort of distance either, maybe 3-5 miles. Blipverts (and probably never having actually touched a wireless card) strike again. > Jim Choate wrote: > > > yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking > > directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does > > that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, > > gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 7 22:29:00 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:29:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <742d53d0b5ebb66723f4a51328409d61@remailer.havenco.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Anonymous User wrote: > Has anyone actually tried DMSO and an over the counter potent > hallucinogen, say something on the order of Salvinorum? I assume you mean Salvia Divinorum? > This could, if it works, make a workable defensive weapons system for > joe blow, and there wouldnt be shit that the local pigs could do about > it. I've actually given this one some prior thought, and what worried me was that the delivery system (some type of water gun) would not likely be reliable enough to not get the crap all over the user as well as the target. And to tell you the truth, in the concentrations you would want to use as a weapon, you better be goddamn *certain* you don't get any of it on you while you're busy spraying the bad guys... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From die at die.com Wed Nov 7 21:31:30 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:31:30 -0500 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:01:10PM -0600 References: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <20011108003130.E1579@die.com> On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:01:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > > DSL line could be clear across town. > > Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred > yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking > directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does > that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, > gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" > > If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else > use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). > I have read reports of people running WiFi links of up to 20 miles. Given a clear path (clear line of sight) and relatively modest sized directional antennas (not huge suspicious looking dishes) which can be concealed under rf transparent radomes (hidden in an attic for example with appropriate (fiberglass) roofing or siding, or behind a glass picture window with curtains drawn) getting 10 to 20 mile ranges is pretty easy with gain antennas on either end... not rocket science either... and quite hard to spot visually (though of course a spectrum analyzer with good preamps and antennas will find and locate any hidden 802.11 link in no time flat - one cannot radiate rf from a fixed location and not be easily found using common TSCM tools). -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From jae at jerhard.org Wed Nov 7 15:33:47 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 00:33:47 +0100 Subject: Asscruft Puffery In-Reply-To: <3BD98989.5AD0C5B8@black.org> (message from Subcommander Bob on Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:04:26 -0700) References: <3BD98989.5AD0C5B8@black.org> Message-ID: >>>>> "Subcommander" == Subcommander Bob writes: Subcommander> At 07:42 AM 10/26/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote: >> Deliberate vagueness on Asscruft's part, I suspect. As I >> understand it, Subcommander> He is strutting and puffing like a rooster who Subcommander> watches his hens being taken away by a fox. The problem is: he likes it that way... because he's sick of them. Too much freedom, y'know. Bye, J -- J|rgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) My WebHome: http://jerhard.org SPACE: Above And Beyond (http://www.planetx.com/space:aab) "Windows NT" is an acronym for "Windows? No thanks." -- Russ McManus [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 23:05:39 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 01:05:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107221946.05257e80@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > At 2.4 GHz there is little need for a parabolic to achieve 12dB or more > gain. Yes, there is. > Small, flat, slot and yaggis may be constructed on circuit boards > and placed in innocuous enclosures and even hidden in walls. The panel antennas I've seen actually used (they are used in motels and such to 'beam' the sensitivity down the central hall) are lucky if they'll hit the other end of a football field. Yagi's might make it to 3-5 miles, no more. > 10-20 dB amps for 2.4 are readily available and relatively inexpensive. Yep, and illegal as hell if you hook them to a 802.11 anything. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 8 01:35:20 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 01:35:20 -0800 Subject: (Yet more) Not getting it: DoE removes nuke info (not) In-Reply-To: <3BE9BC66.9BE58A6F@sarin.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011108012208.03275b60@idiom.com> Aerial Photos of Indian Point Nuke Plant http://mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn/twn-map_results&zoom_level=10&uid=ue.0ybgb.6v9jeja:2xg4yslwa0&aphoto=1&SNVData=3mad3-h.fy%28w2lgrb_%29zbwd0r%3bpq%7cs9z,p7%3b8aq.hqu%3b%28_%13gxp21vr%3d%11K_%3dGG_qua09f%28.0a1x5y%28l%241w-u.wf7%3bxcx5sf7.grfe%7cs%247wv%28u&pcat=&zlgif.x=1 Topographic Map http://mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn/twn-map_topo_results&event=topo_scroll&dir=northwest&uid=ue.0ybgb.6v9jeja:2xg4yslwa0&SNVData=3mad3-h.fy%28w2lgu1_%29zbwlrz%3bah7-%13gxp21vr%3d%3a%28Rj9%2b%16xni_%3dGG_qua09f%28.0a1x5y%28l%241w-u.wf7%3bxcx5sf7.grfe%7cs%24jdvnd%7cOfl93w7l%3a%2b%11s4%2bCq8y%3cp8%3e%12vvkj0ej%2f%13iw8dvfqs%7c%2b%2brn%210znh%2b%2f%2b%29zb%26hay0 At 02:57 PM 11/07/2001 -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20011107/ts/doe_netsecurity011106_1.html >The Department of Energy (news - web sites) has shut down >access to some of its public Web sites, citing concern over >unusually heavy traffic to online information about U.S. nuclear sites. >Federal officials shut down the sites on Monday to try to >protect information that had been available to the public but >could be used by terrorists to launch an attack on U.S. nuclear facilities. >... >Funny, location info is still up; check out your state at > >http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/reactors/states.html > >The Indian Point plant has two units in Buchanan, New York, Westchester >County. >The plant is located on 239 acres in the east bank of the Hudson River, >24 miles north of the New York City boundary. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 02:16:35 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 02:16:35 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111081013.CAA09630@toad.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 02:21:31 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 02:21:31 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111081029.EAA06397@einstein.ssz.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 02:21:32 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 02:21:32 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111081018.CAA09718@toad.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 02:28:45 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 02:28:45 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111081025.fA8APrH27327@ak47.algebra.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From declan at well.com Wed Nov 7 23:28:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 02:28:50 -0500 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@dizum.com on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 06:30:03AM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20011108022850.A6967@cluebot.com> "Nomen" doesn't get it. One can say it's no business of government while supporting the right of private firms to do background checks on their passengers, or strip searches if that's what they feel is necessary. Of course that also means supporting the right of travelers to take their business elsewhere if they find the measures objectionable. -Declan On Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 06:30:03AM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > And yet we expect airport screeners to ignore past acts of terrorism > > > by a wild-eyed fanatic boarding a plan, > > > > I don't recall anybody being required to do that. Quite a stretch, > > unless you can cite an example. > > Read this from Tim May, November 3: > > It really is no business of government to know the identities of those > whose bags/etc. they are checking. Having government able to single out > some travellers for special processing is a recipe for this kind of > mischief. > > BTW, the _wrong_ tack to take would be some argument about a "right to > travel," some over-ruling of Southwest's or United's right to pick its > customers as it wishes. The preferred approach should be to have no ID > at the _security_ checkpoint and to not have any laws requiring ID tied > to tickets. > > He suggests having no ID or other history information available to > help screeners make their decision, nothing but whatever clues can be > gleaned in the brief moments available. Anybody want to fly *those* > friendly skies? From cypherpunks at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 18:12:41 2001 From: cypherpunks at ssz.com (cypherpunks at ssz.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 03:12:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: wireless modems Message-ID: <20011108021241.8695C528DC@smtp.cronos.org> Is there any good info out there to snag wireless modems off UHF and simply recieve not handshake? I just want to recieve. thanks From cypherpunks at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 18:12:58 2001 From: cypherpunks at ssz.com (cypherpunks at ssz.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 03:12:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: wireless modems Message-ID: <20011108021258.31377528E7@smtp.cronos.org> Is there any good info out there to snag wireless modems off UHF and simply recieve not handshake? I just want to recieve. thanks From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net Wed Nov 7 20:14:26 2001 From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel) Date: 8 Nov 2001 04:14:26 -0000 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us Message-ID: <20011108041426.1660.qmail@nym.alias.net> hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes: > I think people have not quite gotten their hands around the speed > at which information can be disseminated online. -Monica Lewinsky, > LATimes 9 may 01 > > > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-110701private.story > > November 7, 2001 > > Web Mishap: Kids' Psychological Files Posted By CHARLES PILLER, Times > Staff Writer > > Detailed psychological records containing th innermost secrets of at > e least 62 children and teenagers wer e accidentally posted on the > University of Montana Web site last week in one of the most glaring > violations of privacy over the Internet. > > The 400 pages of documents describe patient visits and offer diagnoses > by therapists of mental retardation, depression, schizophrenia and > other serious conditions. > > In nearly all cases, they contain complete names, dates of birth and > sometimes home addresses and schools attended, along with results of > psychological testing. > > Unlike a medical file left open on a counter in a doctor's office, > these electronic medical records, once placed on the Internet, > were exposed to a potentially vast audience. "You're talking about > sensitive information that could scar a child for life being available > to anyone for any purpose," said Evan Hendricks, editor of Privacy > Times newsletter. > > The mother of an 11-year-old, whose records of an attention > deficit/hyperactivity disorder were posted on the university's Web > site, was appalled. "He's just a kid, and he shouldn't have his whole > life splattered around for the whole world to know. It makes me sick," > she said. > > The mother declined to be identified. She recalled attending her son's > therapy sessions and watched the therapist "taking notes in her book, > and [I] thought maybe that was the extent of it. I guess I was kind of > naive about that." > > The medical files were placed on the University of Montana Web site > Oct. 29 and were available for eight days. The files were removed > Monday after a local paper, the Missoulian, reported the story, > university officials said. The records were for patients at clinics > mainly in Minnesota, as well as in Montana and other states. > > A University of Montana student or technical employee may have > accidentally placed these private files on the Web site, officials > said. > > It is unclear how many people viewed these records. > > The Montana case is the latest in a series of unauthorized disclosures > of medical data over the Internet. Earlier this year, Eli Lilly & Co., > maker of the antidepressant Prozac, inadvertently divulged the names > and e-mail addresses of 600 psychiatric patients in a mass e-mail. > > Similarly, Kaiser Permanente last year sent e-mails with confidential > medical information to the wrong Kaiser members. > > "That's the danger with having all of these electronic records," said > Daniel B. Borenstein, a former president of the American Psychiatric > Assn. and a UCLA professor. > > "If you push the wrong button or put something in the wrong spot on > your Web site, it [can mean] immediate distribution of a massive > amount of private medical information," Borenstein said. > > Last year, a Nevada woman bought a used computer only to find that > its previous owner, a drugstore, had left the pharmacy records of > thousands of patients on the machine's storage drive. But the buyer > did not publicly disclose the records. > > Also last year, a computer hacker broke into the medical records > system at the University of Washington Medical Center and gained > access to some 4,000 patient records--although these were not made > public. > > What sets the Montana incident apart is the youth of the patients, the > amount of detail disclosed and its placement on a public Web site that > allowed complete access to private records. > > The detailed accounts by therapists reveal children suffering from all > manner of emotional problems: > > "[She] has 'extreme mood swings' and is very aggressive with her > sisters and other children," read one file about an 8-year-old girl > diagnosed with autism and mental retardation. "She has been cruel to > animals, . . . often refuses to eat and will make herself vomit." > > An 8-year-old boy was described as suffering from "anger outbursts, > gender identity issues" and bed-wetting. > > Raymond Ford, the University of Montana technology manager, said the > incident is under investigation. "We have no evidence that this was > malicious--all the evidence that we have suggests that the person > who uploaded [the patient files] probably had no idea what [he was] > doing," he said. > > But once the records were placed on the school's Web server, a > computer that manages its online files, they became available to > Internet search engines and were visible to casual Web surfers who > requested a keyword contained in a patient's record. > > For example, a search for "confidential" or "neuropsychological" > turned up dozens of these medical records. Those files could then be > copied to the computer of any visitor. > > Therapists whose patients were involved were stunned by the lapse. > > "I'm shocked. I have no idea how this can happen. Obviously, this > information is confidential, and we go to great lengths to keep it > confidential," said Bonnie Carlson-Green, a psychologist at Children's > Hospital in St. Paul, Minn., the source of some of the patient > records. > > Ford said the university will attempt to tighten its Web security, but > that it must depend on users' vigilance and care to restrict private > materials. > > Medical records experts said the university has an ethical obligation > to inform the patients' parents. > > "The least the [university] can do is contact the families and let > them know that there was this error and the steps they've taken to > correct it," Borenstein said. > > "There should be special privacy protections for all medical records, > even more special protections for disclosure of any psychiatric > records," because of a real threat of discrimination against people > whose treatment for mental illness becomes known, Borenstein said. > > Borenstein fears that fewer people will seek treatment if they think > their private information may be accidentally disclosed. > > Many psychiatrists are so concerned about inappropriate electronic > disclosure of medical reports that they write only cryptic comments in > patient records, trusting the rest to memory, Borenstein said. > > David Aronofsky, the University of Montana's attorney, said accidental > online releases of private legal or medical information are not > unusual and are corrected quickly. > > Patients and medical institutions have not been contacted about > the release of these records. They will be contacted if it seems > necessary, after the internal investigation is concluded, Aronofsky > said. "We're not understating the significance of what happened here, > nor are we trying to cover it up," he said. > > Fiona Anderson, a University of Minnesota psychologist whose patient > records were among those released online, said the records may have > been removed against her institution's rules. > > "As things become more electronic and more easily accessed . . > . edited and altered, it's difficult for our ethical rules and > guidelines to keep up with the technology," she said. > > But such victims of accidental disclosures face steep legal challenges > to gain compensation, said Peter Swire, a law professor who was chief > privacy counselor for the Clinton administration. > > Part of the problem is new, more stringent federal standards for > medical records privacy will not take effect until 2003, and state > regulations vary widely. > > Posting a private document online--no matter how injurious it may > appear--can cause legal liability only if the victim can prove damages > in court. > > "What if one of the patients has something bad happen to him or her as > a result of this disclosure--if they are turned down for a job later > in life?" Swire said. "This is where you are open to a [legal] suit." > > As more medical records are stored digitally, routine electronic > disclosure to insurers and health maintenance organizations has > increasingly troubled some clinicians and privacy advocates, > although such transfers are legal and often required for provider > reimbursement. > > Paul Appelbaum, president-elect of the American Psychiatric Assn., > said patients should be given the option of having their information > kept on paper. > > A few health-care providers, such as the Harvard Pilgrim HMO, offer > such an option. > > The alternative for patients may be decreasing control over their > medical histories. > > Appelbaum added: "The mobility of electronic information is almost > unlimited." > > From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 7 20:20:07 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 05:20:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: More silly stuff ( was RE: Enemy at the Door ) Message-ID: <8f26ad84c9722c744bfa605ffc7dac5d@dizum.com> keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote : > Of course you could connect an automated firearm. (Crime Stoppers Note: > aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list > know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a > shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a > FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. > > ks > ======================================================================== mmotyka says: A deadly weapon triggered by unreliable SW using a nonexistant database would just give away the fact that you're on to the enemy and cause you undue legal grief. If your own surveillance remains a secret you're in a stronger position. Besides, should you care to tip your hand you might start with something simpler like indelible purple dye. IIRC human skin has a replacement period of ~3 weeks. Chances are your intruders would be from some local or regional installation. Purple people shouldn't be too tough to spot as they make their way to the office and home again ( unless you live in California ). Your more aggressive tactics could then be employed at a time and place of your choosing. ============================================================================ Much funnier would be a spray of DMSO mixed with DMT. And reapplyed evertime they tried to get up. That way, if you made a mistake, and it got you -- oh well. But for a tensed up, uptight LEO -- he'd probably never recover. And still be there babbling for you to have a little fun with when you got home. From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com Wed Nov 7 22:15:31 2001 From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 06:15:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <742d53d0b5ebb66723f4a51328409d61@remailer.havenco.com> Has anyone actually tried DMSO and an over the counter potent hallucinogen, say something on the order of Salvinorum? This could, if it works, make a workable defensive weapons system for joe blow, and there wouldnt be shit that the local pigs could do about it. From alqaeda at hq.org Thu Nov 8 06:25:14 2001 From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 06:25:14 -0800 Subject: US web sites get US protection; french NAZIs stay in france Message-ID: <3BEA95CA.578006C8@hq.org> Judge Fogel's ruling holds that if you have a U.S.-based Web site, you are subject to U.S. law and you are protected by the First Amendment. Foreign court orders will not be enforced. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011107/wr/tech_yahoo_nazi_dc_1.html From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 7 21:30:03 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 06:30:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us Message-ID: Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Nomen Nescio wrote: > > And yet we expect airport screeners to ignore past acts of terrorism > > by a wild-eyed fanatic boarding a plan, > > I don't recall anybody being required to do that. Quite a stretch, > unless you can cite an example. Read this from Tim May, November 3: It really is no business of government to know the identities of those whose bags/etc. they are checking. Having government able to single out some travellers for special processing is a recipe for this kind of mischief. BTW, the _wrong_ tack to take would be some argument about a "right to travel," some over-ruling of Southwest's or United's right to pick its customers as it wishes. The preferred approach should be to have no ID at the _security_ checkpoint and to not have any laws requiring ID tied to tickets. He suggests having no ID or other history information available to help screeners make their decision, nothing but whatever clues can be gleaned in the brief moments available. Anybody want to fly *those* friendly skies? From xeni at xeni.net Thu Nov 8 06:57:58 2001 From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 06:57:58 -0800 Subject: AP: New scrutiny of sale of dead people's SS#'s Message-ID: New scrutiny of sale of the dead's Social Security data November 7, 2001 Posted: 8:39 PM EST (0139 GMT) WASHINGTON (AP) -- The federal government's practice of selling personal information about dead people -- including their Social Security numbers -- to anyone is getting a closer look after investigators determined that all 19 terrorist hijackers obtained numbers. The Social Security Administration has been required to compile its Death Master File since a 1980 court settlement that in essence said dead people do not have privacy rights. Identifying information, including Social Security numbers, must be made public under the Freedom of Information Act. The Death Master File contains 66 million to 70 million records with verified and unverified death reports, and includes Social Security numbers, full names, date of death, date of birth, state, county and ZIP code of the last known address. "As it is now, anybody in the world can go and buy that information," said spokesman Tom Tobin. The issue will be discussed at a hearing Thursday of the House Ways and Means Social Security subcommittee. All 19 terrorist hijackers involved in the September 11 terrorist attacks had Social Security numbers, and 13 obtained them legally, the Social Security Administration has said. It is unclear how the other six obtained their numbers. "People are making the speculation that did the terrorist get the numbers from the Death Master File? My personal guess is that, no they didn't," Tobin said. "There are a whole bunch of other ways to come up with fake identities. There are things that you could do with that file, and that might be one of them." Social Security obtains the information about deceased beneficiaries from family members, funeral homes, states, other federal agencies and financial institutions, and matches it to payment records to terminate benefits. That information is shared with other agencies to match their own records. It also is provided monthly to the Commerce Department's National Technical Information Service, which sells it to the public on a disk or file at a cost that reimburses Social Security for providing the information. More than 100 public and private institutions and companies such as banks, financial institutions, insurance companies, subscribe to the information, according to SSA information provided by Democratic congressional staffers. Subscribers include Web sites, such as Genealogy.com, Edata.com and Ancestry.com, and other businesses including Bank One, National City Bank, Cigna, EDS, Caterpillar Inc. and Lockheed Martin. A monthly subscription is $2,760 in North America, and a monthly international subscription is $5,520, according to the Commerce Department's Web site. Quarterly subscriptions are available for $6,900 in North America and $13,800 internationally. SSA sends the Death Master File to the Commerce Department via Federal Express but is considering transmitting the information electronically, SSA officials have said. Copyright 2001 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 05:04:27 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 07:04:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: ANN: Ciphermail 0.0.3 (prerelease) (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:36:33 +0100 From: Sebastian Horzela To: coderpunks at toad.com Subject: ANN: Ciphermail 0.0.3 (prerelease) Hello coder, I've developed a small mailinglistmanager called ciphermail that works with gnupg to encrypt and pseudo anonymize all communication between the listmembers and ciphermail. it's not much code (yet) and it's written in perl with crypt::gnupg and mime::lite, so it needs a cryptographic filesystem for /tmp because of the created temporary files created by these modules. There are a bunch of ideas out there what ciphermail should do in the next release, so we need some help to implement and improve it ;) Maybe someone has some spare time to commit a patch or two... i've set up a webpage under https://rijndael.killall5.de/~jules/ciphermail/ with more information about ciphermail, so maybe you're interessted in. Hmm. I hope my english is not to bad to get my intention for this mail ;) Bye, jules -- "The cypherpunks credo is 'privacy through technology, not legislation.' The law of the land can be changed by the next administration. The Laws of mathematics are more rigid." -- Express, March 14, 1997, Cover Story -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: URL: From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 05:09:25 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 07:09:25 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - District attorney to close LAPD corruption case - November 8, 2001 Message-ID: <3BEA8405.4E3A5CC2@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/08/lapdcorruption.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 05:16:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 07:16:12 -0600 Subject: Intelligence Shakeup Would Boost CIA (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3BEA859C.70232A16@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58657-2001Nov7.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Nov 8 08:51:01 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:51:01 -0800 Subject: more on Nancy Oden In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107224724.00d6bb30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: That's nonsense. Please explain the informational content of the word "cunt" as you used it. By the way, there is no validity in trying to hand the "PC" sign on me for two reasons: a) I'm about as far as you can get from being PC, and b) your use PC accusation makes sense ONLY if your use of the word "cunt" was meant as a general reference to women. You cannot have it both ways. S a n d y > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Reese > Sent: 08 November, 2001 00:54 > To: cypherpunks at minder.net > Subject: Fwd: more on Nancy Oden > > > Sorry Sandy, I got it right the first time - it is not an insult > to all other women because I specifically identified her, I did > not make a general statement about all women - pc-ism be damned. > > > > ****************************************************** > The following message was posted to [a list] > ****************************************************** > > Hi all, > > I hate talking about individuals on a list like this, but the > misleading statements being put out by one Nancy Oden need rapid > rumor control. Defending her half-truths would make us look silly. > > I got to meet Nancy three years ago when she was in Seattle for the > national committee meeting of the activist organization known as "the > Greens/Green Party USA," which should not be confused with the > national electoral organization, "the Green Party of the United > States," which nominated Ralph Nader for President and helped get him > on the ballot in 44 states. > > Nancy was incredibly rude to her fellow activists. She talked > endlessly about how mean the Maine Green Party had been to her, and > about how evil the Greens from "that other Green organization" were. > I dismissed her as a run-of-the-mill kook. > > Then, this past spring, she somehow got elected to the three-member > Coordinating Committee of G/GPUSA. Her tenure involved a string of > 2-1 decisions taking authority away from the larger Green National > Committee, and shutting down various processes in the bylaws that > were used to try to overrule her. Eleven of the 13 state parties then > affiliated with G/GPUSA had called for a membership referendum on the > "Boston Proposal for Unity." (Only six are needed to call such a > referendum.) Nancy used her power on the CC to prevent any money > being spent to hold the referendum, and continually threatened to > fire the two staffers who were trying their best to obey the bylaws. > To say that Nancy was abusive toward the staff would be an > understatement. > > When the pro-unity supermajority was unable to ever get a vote called > on the Boston Proposal, most of the state parties started > disaffiliating. G/GPUSA is now down to four state parties, two of > which are still in the process of disaffiliation. > > Meanwhile, GP-US, which is expected to finally be recognized as "the > national committee of the Green Party" by the Federal Elections > Commission some time in the next two weeks, has 33 affiliated state > parties. > > Nancy Oden got elected to the G/GPUSA CC on a platform of "real > democracy, where We the People ..." Instead, she ran the organization > with an iron fist and sent nearly everyone fleeing to more productive > ground. > > Nancy's latest heavy-handed rhetoric does not match up with what I've > been reading in the Bangor news. She was not targeted at the airport > because she was a leader of the G/GPUSA. She was targeted because she > was rude to the security officers. Indeed, the FBI say they had no > idea who she was. Other Green Party leaders have had no trouble > whatsoever flying. > > Nancy was not banned from flying. She was simply not allowed to fly > that day. Nancy said she did not put up resistance to having her > purse searched (a standard procedure long before 9/11) or personal > search. She just went crazy at the metal-detecting wand. I know Nancy > well enough to know why she would freak out at the use of such a > radioactive instrument around her body. She is a long-time anti-nuke > activist. > > We risk delegitimizing ourselves by defending Nancy Oden's hysterical > account of airport security. We'd also be causing more > well-intentioned Green-Party-activist wannabes to go to G/GPUSA's web > site and pay dues to G/GPUSA, not knowing that it is not the national > Green Party that put together the convention in Denver and nominated > Ralph Nader for president. > > If GP-US puts out a press release today, I hope it presents a more > balanced account of what really happened between Nancy and airport > security, and points out that Nancy's organization is *not* the > national Green Party. > > Sorry to rag on fellow activists. > > > > From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 08:57:14 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:57:14 -0800 Subject: Greens: "freak out...use of such a radioactive instrument" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107224724.00d6bb30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > Message-ID: On Thursday, November 8, 2001, at 12:54 AM, Reese wrote: > ****************************************************** > The following message was posted to [a list] > ... > I got to meet Nancy three years ago when she was in Seattle for the > national committee meeting of the activist organization known as "the > Greens/Green Party USA," which should not be confused with the > ...much GreenSpeak elided... > Nancy was not banned from flying. She was simply not allowed to fly > that day. Nancy said she did not put up resistance to having her > purse searched (a standard procedure long before 9/11) or personal > search. She just went crazy at the metal-detecting wand. I know Nancy > well enough to know why she would freak out at the use of such a > radioactive instrument around her body. She is a long-time anti-nuke > activist. Earth to Greens: metal-detector wands are _not_ a "radioactive instrument_. A 7th-grade understanding of physics is all that is needed to know this. No wonder the Greens have such a backasswards view of so many things. Heinlein's quote below is especially appropriate. --Tim May "Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." --Robert A. Heinlein From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 8 08:58:28 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:58:28 -0800 Subject: Slashdot | Operation Acoustic Kitty In-Reply-To: <3BEA1426.DD6B40F6@ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011108085828.007df670@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:12 PM 11/7/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >I want whatever these guys are smoking... > >http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/07/2258212.shtml > Maybe the FBI will open a vetinerary clinic... in Scarfo's neighborhood. Maybe the FBI's undercover Housecleaning business staff will carry a bottle of ketamine and a scalpel.. Can you bug an Aibo? From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 8 09:08:06 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:08:06 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BEA1BBA.C539EC9F@cybershamanix.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011108090806.007b0ac0@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:45 PM 11/7/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Go tell that to the Seattle/Portland/wherever wireless people. Or the >people in rural MN who are putting them up on silos and running a 10 mile >radius. Totally depends on your topography. And even with p-p they aren't >doing parabolics, more like yagi directionals, which could be just another >TV antenna, cut to the harmonic. > Gee, maybe they'll start raiding home with TV antennas. > The pages about 'pringle's chip canister yagis' show a piece of plumbing PVC enclosing the final package, a tube about the size of an arm. It doesn't look like a TV antenna, more like the microwave uplinks (Funny that.) from mobile tv vans, though those are usually helical. So the Ghz yagi is readily hidden. The 802.11 hacks claim a good 15 db with a homemade yagi. I think the RF deal is that you can't scale a yagi as far as you can a dish -past some number of segments the yagi doesn't give you more, but a dish keeps on giving (Areceibo for instance...) if you have the space for it and can take the wind. From mattd at useoz.com Wed Nov 7 14:15:20 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:15:20 +1100 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011108090055.00a28120@pop.useoz.com> Subject: ratted out "A CONFIDENTIAL FBI list of 370 people suspected of > helping Osama bin Laden's terrorist network has > leaked out. > > The names, addresses, telephone numbers, e-mail, > and social security codes of the suspects were > posted on the internet by Finland's Financial > Supervision Authority (RATA)." On the bright side the Hannsen files are being prepared for online release soon and reports of TMs death seem slightly premature.Also as psychiatrists tape evidence for clients trials and lawyers give their clients up,its comforting to have the ROCK of journalism to fall back on.(not sure about confessionals but they are looking better as an interview space. From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 09:46:26 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:46:26 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <3BEA603E.8F7FA333@mozcom.com> Message-ID: <8837126A-D470-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> The confusion "Nomen Nescio" shows in thinking that an is-a-person government tracking system fixes the airline security problem is common these days. It's the same confusion that causes many to think national I.D. cards will fix current pressing problems. They won't. This is the same "security ticket" problem that shows up in computer security with malicious actors obtaining passwords or other access permissions. The time-honored alternative for airline security, and many other types of security, is to not rely on permission slips or identity credentials. Rather, it is to PHYSICALLY inspect. Think of this a "capability," in OS/KeyKOS/E language terms. Instead of some security or identity credential, a direct determination that an object (passenger) can only have certain kinds of access and property combinations ("no bombs allowed with passenger"). The way to ensure that an object or agent does not go outside certain bounds (e.g., to erase or overwrite files) is not to trust some issuer of a credential from afar but to require specific allocation of access rights in the object or actor itself. (This is not meant to be the most concise or elegant phrasing of what capabilities are. Cf. the usual sources, includinging Hardy, Tenenbaum, Miller, etc.) Now if El Al or another airline wishes to require identity credentials issued by California or Israel or whatever, this is their choice (in a free market, that is). As I have written about in the past, some airlines already use credentialling systems very similar to a "web-of-trust" or "introducers" model. Private transport companies, for example. Much the way companies hire people they know, or get to know. "Vouching for" and all that stuff. There is no one single security model. Security is part of an ecology of actors, with methods, capabilities, and propagation of belief/trust issues. The problem I have with the current regime of soldiers with M-16s demanding identity credentials is the simple-minded nature of it, losing the nuances of market alternatives, and accelerating trends toward a identity-centric state. Nomen Nescio and others should read Chaum's "Credentials without identity" papers. A true name is just another credential, not necessarily more important than any of several other credentials. People should think deeply about this issue. --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787 From piolenc at mozcom.com Wed Nov 7 19:13:56 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 11:13:56 +0800 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us References: <4c4eed4b242253b2e03be1305750919f@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3BE9F874.40C0D86A@mozcom.com> I think the point was that those in whom these data were confided had promised to protect them from disclosure. What happens to the data ONCE COMPROMISED is another question. More below Nomen Nescio wrote: > > Tim May: > > These 50 kids will find their innermost thoughts and crimes "in their > > permanent records." When they apply for jobs in 15 years, when they seek > > political office, when they try to get security clearances. > > > > eBlack, the new anonymous bidding service, has an offer for e2400 for a > > complete set of these files. > > And yet we expect airport screeners to ignore past acts of terrorism > by a wild-eyed fanatic boarding a plan, I don't recall anybody being required to do that. Quite a stretch, unless you can cite an example. Marc de Piolenc From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 8 11:42:21 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:42:21 -0800 Subject: Stun Guns a Firearm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BEA6F9D.16716.8D1783@localhost> -- On 6 Nov 2001, at 15:20, measl at mfn.org wrote: > "Taser" is the stun gun to which I was referrring as unsaleable (is that a > word?) to mere civilians. The web page http://www.airtaser.com/ seems to claim it is legal in California. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 529sRmfZ4y6i8fWTL69Px67yTjPWEtrN6r/Kr1qM 4egqrA040PHa64nGnp76N7x0DUI5wYJmg//psgCUz From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 8 11:42:22 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:42:22 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: References: <00bc01c166d9$a76c6600$5300a8c0@marcel> Message-ID: <3BEA6F9E.20843.8D17BF@localhost> -- On 7 Nov 2001, at 17:21, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Marcel Popescu wrote: > > > You're still incredibly deluded. Even Hayek (bad as he is) would have > > supported someone's decision NOT to sell to someone else, your rethoric > > notwithstanding. BTW, do you have anything else besides "Tim is wrong"? (And > > I'm no fan of Tim.) > > No, Hayek wouldn't have. Otherwise he wouldn't have been an apponent of > regulated economies (in particular both socialist and fascist). Why was he > against regulated economies? Because they don't offer the same > opportunities to ALL the members of the market (buyer > and seller alike). > > If Hayek were alive today and you asked him, > > "Do you support a business in a free market refusing to sell to Jews?" > > His answer would have been decidedly in the negative, You are both deranged and untruthfull. You make statements without caring or knowing whether they are true or false. His answer would, of course, have been that without freedom of asscociation, we will eventually wind up as serfs. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG tTENFDL8xKddAqMPfoxf52sFTiI456i81yN0QF2P 4f3Jr3toXUmULlgIBfzwDPtxn70dkFD2X5lwS1o9h From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 8 11:54:29 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:54:29 -0800 Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. Message-ID: <3BEA7275.17031.98314B@localhost> -- The evidence is now overwhelming that the anthrax attacks are connected to the 9/11 attack, and the current events in Afghanistan. However the Fibbies are still determinedly pushing the position that these attacks come from internal right wing terrorists. If the anthrax attack is connected to the 9/11 attack, then the fibbies get to play errand boy for the CIA and military intelligence. If the anthrax attack is internal, then they are in charge and they get to spy on all us right wing extremist hate groups. Let us hope that when they finally admit the anthrax attack was middle eastern, Aimee gets sent back to pretending to be a thirteen year old girl in chat rooms. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG /usKb79bOIG673+tHTcQXQ7zxv3JYpQCju1NtcAy 4yL8hsExUPXifzSS5U4Mmbce1l0n4YNFgIVZSBTP9 From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Thu Nov 8 11:58:09 2001 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 11:58:09 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <8837126A-D470-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> References: <3BEA603E.8F7FA333@mozcom.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108110135.04110cf0@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 09:46 AM 11/8/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote: >The confusion "Nomen Nescio" shows in thinking that an is-a-person >government tracking system fixes the airline security problem is common >these days. It's the same confusion that causes many to think national >I.D. cards will fix current pressing problems. They won't. > >[...] >Nomen Nescio and others should read Chaum's "Credentials without identity" >papers. A true name is just another credential, not necessarily more >important than any of several other credentials. People should think >deeply about this issue. Indeed. It's popular to frame this as a "this or that" question - like we've got a choice between terrorism (or insecurity) and security without privacy, and it's time for some group of people to deliberate carefully about the right choice to make, or the right way to balance mutually exclusive options. There is no such choice - the is no other side to bargain with, who will accept our privacy or autonomy or liberty in exchange for guaranteed safety. We can't build any sort of reliable security infrastructure on top of our existing identity scheme. Our current scheme doesn't provide for one-to-one mappings between people and identities, it doesn't provide for reliable ways to validate a proposed match between a meat body and an identity, and it provides a multitude of informal and traditional ways to adopt additional or alternate identities in a perfectly legitimate and orderly way. There's simply no way to enforce or implement an "identity" system meant to track humans if all of the elements of the system are pure information, because people who want to defeat the system will report misleading or incomplete information. It's also wildly impractical to even think of issuing some sort of physical token to the *billions* of people on Earth - people cannot (and will not) preserve them against loss, theft, damage, and so forth - nor can they be trusted not to falsely report loss or theft, or to sign up for multiple identities. Tokens which become associated with negative histories will be "lost" immediately; and tokens associated with positive histories will be targets of fraud and theft. The only way to manage identity with the robustness required to provide the sort of trackability and accountability required for an application like that proposed is to use some sort of biometric identifier. Nazi Germany (and I don't bring them up just for shock value) understood that, and used tattooed numbers on the arms of Jews and other unfortunates to eliminate the possibility of identity fraud or theft. In light of the logistical and capital requirements which a high-tech biometric system would require - and since we're talking about international travel and international border crossing, a strong ID project must be worldwide, not just US-based - it's simply not possible to think that we'd be able to use some sort of sexy high-tech retinal scanners, fingerprint scanners, hand geometry scanners, and so forth, to form the biometric basis of identity in such a system. The infrastructure doesn't exist, and can't be developed and deployed in anywhere near the time scale which would be required to address our current security problems, and the initial and recurring costs would be astronomical. The only way we could implement a system like that, starting this year, would be with good old-fashioned human-readable or human-measurable factors which are unchangeable, or at least very difficult to change - and that means something like tattooing or branding every living human being, on a part of their body that's likely to be publically visible, so an unmarked person (or person with altered marks) would be immediately conspicuous. A human readable-mark like a tattooed number would allow border guards, immigration workers, employers, and others to verify a person's status and provide updates using analog technology like telephones, faxes, or slow dialup modems which are universally available and whose installation and maintenance are relatively well understood. So let's say we do tattoo a number on the inside of everyone's forearm - would that incredible infringement on privacy and freedom and autonomy guarantee us our safety? No, it would not - it would allow us to identify people who had done bad things in the past, and restrict their access to places or things which we anticipate might allow them to cause very great damage in the future - but it would do nothing at all to identify people who have not yet been caught doing anything wrong. It also would not stop otherwise disqualified people from seizing controlled resources by trickery or force, or from assembling destructive things out of otherwise unremarkable consumer goods (like the truck bomb which struck the Murrah federal building in OKC.) Tim McVeigh wasn't wanted or suspected of anything prior to the OKC bombing - identity-based security wouldn't have prevented him from renting the truck, nor buying the fertilizer and airplane fuel used to build his bomb. All of the alleged WTC hijackers passed through immigration and other checkpoints without being detected as dangerous - if the technology and techniques we're discussing wouldn't even have prevented known attacks in the past, how can we imagine they'll be effective in the future? It's a popular fantasy, this idea that people will faithfully report a "true name" which can be matched to a database of past actions which will reliably predict future behavior - but it's a failure in every way, from the notion of a true, unique name, to the idea that access to dossiers can be both widely available and reliable, to the idea that it's possible to know what someone will do tomorrow based on knowledge of his behavior in the past. I can understand why people want to believe that it's possible - much like people want to believe that Marx' vision of Communism is possible, even in the face of many failed attempts which created only misery and starvation and death - but I'm disappointed to see that people's wish that it were possible turns out to be stronger than their common sense which should tell them that it is not. When people talk about "ID checks", they're going down a slippery slope which leads to either ridiculously ineffective charades like our existing airport security - or to a deadly efficient system like forearm tattoos. Is there anyone who wants any part of either of those visions of the future? Can anyone articulate a feasible identity system, using technology available today in third-world countries, which would have prevented events like the WTC attack or the OKC bombing? How about anthrax in the mail? If so, do you really want to live in that world? If not, isn't it time we abandoned this "ID card" fairy tale, and start thinking about how to solve our current problems using the abilities and limitations of our current situation? -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 12:07:04 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 12:07:04 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111082004.MAA00521@toad.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 12:07:07 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 12:07:07 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111082004.fA8K4BH13078@ak47.algebra.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Thu Nov 8 14:52:59 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 12:52:59 -1000 Subject: more on Nancy Oden In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107224724.00d6bb30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011108124031.02b4c320@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 08:51 AM 11/8/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >That's nonsense. Please explain the informational content of the word >"cunt" as you used it. Generic identifier of specific individuals who have distinguished themselves by performing specific behaviors, "as fucked up as a football bat" would be similar to the informational content of "cunt" as I used it, note that I used "prick" and "cunt" in reference to males (yourself and Choate) in similar contexts. >By the way, there is no validity in trying to hand >the "PC" sign on me for two reasons: a) I'm about as far as you can >get from being PC, That didn't stop you from decrying my lack of "socialization," then scant days later when you called Choate a "pompous ass" it struck me that you are not a bona fide pc-ist, you are just a hypocrite. >and b) your use PC accusation makes sense ONLY if >your use of the word "cunt" was meant as a general reference to women. I disagree - it wasn't a general reference to women, it was a general reference to a specific person who happened to be a woman, I suggested you call Choate a "dumb cunt" too. >You cannot have it both ways. I don't think I am having it both ways, but in any event I won't play this game with you any longer. Reese From juancarlos at memorykings.net Thu Nov 8 10:25:48 2001 From: juancarlos at memorykings.net (juancarlos at memorykings.net) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 13:25:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: King Interactive Distributors Message-ID: <200111081825.NAA25575@smtp2.fdn.com> Hello, Here is my new deal for today. I have 10 Sharp NoteVision PG-M15S. These retail for $3700 dollars each. I am selling them for half price.Please email me your contact info if serious. I still have a few Dell FlatScreen Lcd Monitors left. These 14.1 inch monitors also come with a 32 mb Agp Video Card which has a S-video out. The card is actually worth $130 dollars alone. This a great deal. I am selling these monitors cheap.There are some of these monitors on Ebay but the ones on Ebay are refurbs. These are brand new in the box.Please email me your name and number if you are serious about purchasing. I also have some 3com Cable Modems. These are worth over $150 dollars each. I am selling them for almose half the price. Please email me your contact info if interested. Mouses Logitech I-Feel Optical mouse (no ball) $13.50 each Logitech First Wheel Mouse,comes with scroll wheel ,Usb, and Ps/2 connector $5 each Memory 128 meg pc100/133 168 pin $9.75 each 256 meg pc100/133 168 pin $18.75 each 512 meg pc100/133 168 pin $31.75 each Software Bulk Email Software (allows you to email over 1 million addresses in less than 2 hours)$39.99 Dvd to Cd (allows you to copy any dvd to a cd that can be played in your dvd or cd rom)$29.99 Super Spy 2002 Platinum Version 5.1 (Awesome spy software,too much to list)$9.99 Animated Pro ( Has over 500 animated gifs)$4.99 Banned Cd ( Wholesale sources , IRS forgiveness programs,Hacker Guides, Free Cable tv info,Repair your credit,Discount software)$4.99 Software Platinum Edition (123 software titles such as label magic,Bartender Pro,Will Kit, Simple Bookeeper,Debt analyzer, etc,etc.)$4.99 GameTek ( 100 computer games)$4.99 PC Pro ( 106 different pc programs such as pop up killer,ram booster etc.)$4.99 Pc Tech (patches ,test programs,utilities and rescue programs)$4.99 Ebay Tutorial (Easy Html, Auction Tips, Pre-formatted ads,Ebay secrets, Sniping, web page tutor, etc...)$4.99 Screensaver Pro ( over 200 screensavers such as Carmen Electra, Anna Kournikov,Drew Barrymore,Snoopy,Shania Twain,WWF, Etc..) $4.99 Misc (great to sell on Ebay) Remote Control Extender $10 each Smartmedia Memory Compactflash memory From georgemw at speakeasy.net Thu Nov 8 13:30:16 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 13:30:16 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108110135.04110cf0@bivens.parrhesia.com> References: <8837126A-D470-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BEA88E8.7586.138FC9@localhost> On 8 Nov 2001, at 11:58, Greg Broiles wrote: > It's a popular fantasy, this idea that people will faithfully report a > "true name" which can be matched to a database of past actions which will > reliably predict future behavior - but it's a failure in every way, from > the notion of a true, unique name, to the idea that access to dossiers can > be both widely available and reliable, to the idea that it's possible to > know what someone will do tomorrow based on knowledge of his behavior in > the past. > Right. To be brutally specific, identification is generally useless for preventing suicide bombings, because suicide bombers tend not to be repeat offenders. George From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 14:22:39 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:22:39 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1F016760-D497-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Greg Broiles and Peter Trei both make excellent points. I kind of regret not spending an hour or so writing a more complete essay. But I wanted to get some of the ideas out, mainly to refute the wrong-headed ideas floating around from folks as diverse as John Ashcroft and Nomen Whatever. Fact is, we have gone down the "is-a-person" route, and the crypto literature is filled with some good discussions, mainly back in the mid- to late-80s. (See Crypto proceedings for papers by Micali, Fiat, Shamir, and others on "is-a-person" issues. Note especially the vexing problem of what happens when some states (Libya, the United States) issue false credentials. (Think of what is-a-person means for states which issue fake credentials, a la the Witness Security Program, agents of various kinds, etc. A t.v. show I like, one of the crop of several such shows (including UC: Undercover, Alias, and 24) is "The Agency." It shows an impressive faking department at work, generating flawless passports, flawless travel documents, excellent "legends," etc. There is no reason to believe that WTC attackers could not have similar state-issued credentials, nor is there reason to believe that private actors cannot generate similar credentials. This is well-known in the biometric security community, and was well-known several decades ago....remember the scene in "Thunderball" where the guy's eyeballs are taken out to gain access to nukes?) The security-by-credential vs. security-by-inspection (capability, direct verification) debate is something which should be getting much more attention. Alas, it is "too obscure" for politicians and legal types...it has taken them a couple of decades to begin to absorb the concept of digital signatures. But there is no excuse for all of the careless thought here on this list (and other lists) such as we have seen from some. A few comments: On Thursday, November 8, 2001, at 12:58 PM, Trei, Peter wrote: > > I've been thinking along these lines myself - Tim got to the post > first. Like I said, it needs a full-blown article. All I had the time and energy to do was to throw some basic points out. > There are two points I'd like to make. > > 1. The reasons which are publicly aired for installing the current > 'security' regime are (in my considered opinion) NOT the > actually reasons. > > US airlines insisting on IDs which match tickets has nothing to > do with airline security, and everything to do with extracting as > much cash as possible from the public. > ... > Due to the vast cost differential (up to 10:1) between the cost > of a ticket to fly tomorrow, vs the cost of a 'two week advance, > The airlines hated this. The 'you must have a government id > which matches the name on the ticket' rule put an end to > the fungibility of airline tickets, which boosted their bottom > line. Indeed, they leapt on "mandatory ID" with great enthusiasm. Without it being mandatory, without this market distortion, then of course some airlines might have (and did) required government identity credentials and some airlines might not have. Indeed, many did not. There's no evidence that airline security was any lower in those days. In fact, the 911 attack happened _after_ the ID regimen, and Atta and others all had government-granted IDs. Q.E.D. Anyway, when the government mandated ID, thus distorting the market, the airlines no longer had to "compete" on the basis of their policies. The result is as Peter said: increased overall costs to business (with increased profits, for a while) to the airlines. (Longterm, it may be that corporations are travelling less. Given a choice between buying a ticket between Chicago and St. Louis for $1000, the going no-notice travel rate, and having a pool of cheaper tickets to use, this may have something to do with a decline in business travel. It's got to be one of the contributing factors.) > > 2. The capability vs credential argument runs all through > security. For example: Signed ActiveX code is using the > credential model, while the Java sandbox uses the capability > model. > > Another: 'Trust us not to look at your email without a warrant' > is the credential model. 'Encrypt your email so they cant look > at it' is the capability model. A good insight. I hadn't been thinking of encryption in terms of the capability model, but it may fit the model. I'll have to think about this some more. I tend to think of encryption as being "objects carrying their own protection." Though giving another actor a key is thus like giving them a capability to access the object, so I suspect your model is correct. > > Techies tend to prefer the capability model over the credential > model - it not only works, but can be seen to work, and does > not rely on trust. Institutions prefer that people use the > credential model, since that allows them to change the rules > at the drop of a hat. Yes, local behavior. Objects, contracts, local enforcement, distributed control, redundancy, non-hierarchical, information-hiding. Many of us believe this is a reason so many software people are libertarians. > > You can imagine applying the two models to airline passengers, > both of which would act to reduce the frequency of security > problems: > > 1. Capability model: You don't need to have ID at all, you can > pay cash on the plane (as I used to do on People Express) > but you'll get searched up the wazoo, and everything down to > a too-sharp pencil confiscated. This works because security is dependent on the dangers actually _carried_ by the passenger. (This does not apply as well to, say, Presidential security, because an actor (an agent, not a Reagan) may carry deadly capabilities in--to use the hackneyed expression--his bare hands.) > 2. Credential model: You can take your Glock on board, > provided it's loaded with frangible bullets. However you'll > have to have biometricaly enabled ID from the NRA certifying > that you've taken the 'Guns on Planes' course, a signed > affadavit from a psychiatrist saying you're sane and not > overly excitable, and a note from Mom saying you can. > > Both are better from a security point of view than having > unidentified armed people on board. And the fallacy people like Nomen Nescio have been making is to assume that "not requiring ID" means there are no other ways to get security. In fact, of the two options above, I'd rather travel under #1. Given how easily credentials may be faked, given the fact that credentials don't imply trustworthiness, given a lot of other factors, the presence of a credential is not very convincing. As I mentioned in my post, there are private travel companies (like FlexJet) which carry VIPs and execs and people they have come to trust. "Know your passenger" works...always has. Not perfectly, but better than most alternatives. Note for Nomen: This is NOT a call for the FAA to adopt some bureaucratic "know your passenger" policy, akin to "know your customer" rules for banks. ("Know your customer" rules for banks are also bogus, but this is another issue. A good toic to think about.) Regrettably, these interesting debates are completely orthogonal to the banal debates actually going on in America. --Tim May "Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events following 9/11/2001 From ryan at havenco.com Thu Nov 8 06:42:40 2001 From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:42:40 +0000 Subject: Presidental Commission recommends NSA, NIMA, NRO -> CIA Message-ID: <20011108144240.A5952@atreides.havenco.com> [http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/08/inv.intelligence.restructuring.ap/index.html] > WASHINGTON (AP) -- A presidential commission plans to recommend that > three massive Pentagon intelligence agencies be shifted to the CIA -- > a move that represents the largest shake-up in the intelligence > community in decades, The Washington Post reported Thursday. > The agencies that would be transferred are the National Reconnaissance > Office, which develops intelligence satellite systems, the National > Security Agency, which is in charge of electronic intercepts, and the > National Imagery and Mapping Agency, the newspaper said. > Each of those agencies would be under the control of the CIA director, > under the plan. > The proposal is aimed at reducing rivalries and consolidating > programs. It will be delivered to President Bush this month. I don't know about anyone else, but I have a far higher degree of trust for the DoD and subsidiary agencies acting responsibily and to protect the interests of US citizens in the US than the CIA. Certainly NSA and NRO have massive amounts of power, but putting that power in the hands of the CIA scares me a lot more. Moving things to the FBI would scare me more, of course. Mmm, FBI in direct control of USD 20b/year of high-tech equipment, NSA's cryptanalytic capabilities... I wonder what the odds are for this passing? -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE] ryan at havenco.com CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd. +44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F From kmself at ix.netcom.com Thu Nov 8 15:17:23 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:17:23 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 03:58:04PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20011108151723.I11233@navel.introspect> on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 03:58:04PM -0500, Trei, Peter (ptrei at rsasecurity.com) wrote: > > Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] wrote > > > > The confusion "Nomen Nescio" shows in thinking that an is-a-person > > government tracking system fixes the airline security problem is common > > these days. It's the same confusion that causes many to think national > > I.D. cards will fix current pressing problems. They won't. > > > > This is the same "security ticket" problem that shows up in computer > > security with malicious actors obtaining passwords or other access > > permissions. <...> > I've been thinking along these lines myself - Tim got to the post > first. > > There are two points I'd like to make. > > 1. The reasons which are publicly aired for installing the current > 'security' regime are (in my considered opinion) NOT the > actually reasons. > > US airlines insisting on IDs which match tickets has nothing to > do with airline security, and everything to do with extracting as > much cash as possible from the public. > > Before the Pan Am 800 accident, when people were freeer, there > was a secondary market in airline tickets which the original > purchasers could not, for one reason or another, use. If you > bought a non-refundable return ticket, and then could not > use it, you could sell it to someone who did want to travel > on those dates to that location. The price varied, but was > less than the cost to the repurchaser of buying a ticket from > the airline. <...> > It's got nothing to do with security. ...and, as previously reported here, an age-old practice: It's an older practice than you'd think. I just ran across the following while looking at some IBM history, regarding the "Hollerith Card": http://www4.wittenberg.edu/academics/mathcomp/bjsdir/history0.shtml Hollerith claimed he got [the punched data card] idea from "punch photograph cards" used by rail road officials. Used to prevent the theft of railroad tickets from passengers, conductors would "record" the physical characteristics of the ticket owner (e.g. eye color, hair color) by punching specially marked areas on the edge of the card. Hollerith used holes punched through the card, not on the edge of the card. Maybe someone should propose a "three strikes" law for suicide terror attacks. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 8 12:18:45 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:18:45 -0500 Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. Message-ID: > jamesd at echeque.com[SMTP:jamesd at echeque.com] wrote: > > -- > The evidence is now overwhelming that the anthrax attacks are > connected to the 9/11 attack, and the current events in > Afghanistan. However the Fibbies are still determinedly > pushing the position that these attacks come from internal > right wing terrorists. > > If the anthrax attack is connected to the 9/11 attack, then > the fibbies get to play errand boy for the CIA and military > intelligence. If the anthrax attack is internal, then they > are in charge and they get to spy on all us right wing > extremist hate groups. [...] What's this 'us' bit? Jim, I don't know what 'right wing extremist hate groups' you may belong to, but don't confuse such groups with the subscribers to this open mailing list, especially to third parties. This is not a 'group', and includes people from every part of the political spectrum. About the only thing that can be said to be in common among subscribers is that they think that crypto is in some way important. Peter Trei From nobody at dizum.com Thu Nov 8 06:40:10 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:40:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: Chemical defense Message-ID: Anonymous asked: > Has anyone actually tried DMSO and an over the counter potent hallucinogen, say > something on the order of Salvinorum? > > This could, if it works, make a workable defensive weapons system for joe blow, > and there wouldnt be shit that the local pigs could do about it. Except make it all that more likely that Salvinorum would be scheduled. A much better choice anyway for defensive (or offensive, for that matter) would be nicotine. Easy to get, one drop of pure nicotine on someones skin would be deadly. A dilute dose would knock them out -- the dog catchers used nicotine in dart guns to knock out dogs. Problem was, a bit too much and the dog died, not enough and it just got woozy. So with a squirt gun full of DMSO and nicotine, you just squirt the perp again, if the first wasn't enough. The medical examiner would probably decide it was a heart attack. From mattd at useoz.com Wed Nov 7 20:48:07 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 15:48:07 +1100 Subject: : So, do we bomb south america??? Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011108154046.00a0ad70@pop.useoz.com> "http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/11/07/inv.terror.south/index.html ... Sources tell CNN they believe the tri-border area is being used as a haven and source of funding for terrorists linked to Iran's Party of God, and to organizations that work closely with Osama bin Laden. " Impeccable hearsay has a mobile(by horse drawn cart)SCUD nuclear(gracias chechen mafia)lined up on AIMEE FARRS ASS,from the general chiapas area.Dont send alan Darthowitz around,thats all I know.I think arbusto needs a holiday,dont you?I mean have you seen him recently?His dad looks younger. From nobody at dizum.com Thu Nov 8 06:50:22 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:50:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: your mail Message-ID: measl said: ================================================================== On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Anonymous User wrote: > Has anyone actually tried DMSO and an over the counter potent > hallucinogen, say something on the order of Salvinorum? I assume you mean Salvia Divinorum? > This could, if it works, make a workable defensive weapons system for > joe blow, and there wouldnt be shit that the local pigs could do about > it. I've actually given this one some prior thought, and what worried me was that the delivery system (some type of water gun) would not likely be reliable enough to not get the crap all over the user as well as the target. And to tell you the truth, in the concentrations you would want to use as a weapon, you better be goddamn *certain* you don't get any of it on you while you're busy spraying the bad guys... ==================================================================== Yes, that's the problem isn't it. A common squirt gun wouldn't work, especially since DMSO is the universal solvent. A high-tec squirt gun could be built, pressurized by CO2 perhaps. Or paintball guns could be adapted with thin glass balls. From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Nov 8 15:54:57 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:54:57 -0800 Subject: POORLY SOCIALIZED VS POLITICALLY INCORRECT Message-ID: C'punks, For those of you, like Reese, who were unsure or mistaken as to the meaning of "socialized" when I wrote that Reese was "poorly socialized," I refer you to definition #2 of "socialize" from dictionary.com: so7cial7ize (s sh -l z) v. so7cial7ized, so7cial7iz7ing, so7cial7iz7es v. tr. 1. To place under government or group ownership or control. 2. To make fit for companionship with others; make sociable. 3. To convert or adapt to the needs of society. Please compare that to either definition of "politically correct," also from dictionary.com: politically correct adj. Abbr. PC 1. Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation. 2. Being or perceived as being overconcerned with such change, often to the exclusion of other matters. So for future reference, if I should use the term "socialized" in reference to a person, I mean definition #2. If I use it in reference to a practice, organization, market segment, etc. I mean definition #1 or #3. Clear enough? S a n d y From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 8 12:58:04 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:58:04 -0500 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection Message-ID: > Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] wrote > > The confusion "Nomen Nescio" shows in thinking that an is-a-person > government tracking system fixes the airline security problem is common > these days. It's the same confusion that causes many to think national > I.D. cards will fix current pressing problems. They won't. > > This is the same "security ticket" problem that shows up in computer > security with malicious actors obtaining passwords or other access > permissions. > > The time-honored alternative for airline security, and many other types > of security, is to not rely on permission slips or identity credentials. > Rather, it is to PHYSICALLY inspect. > > Think of this a "capability," in OS/KeyKOS/E language terms. Instead of > some security or identity credential, a direct determination that an > object (passenger) can only have certain kinds of access and property > combinations ("no bombs allowed with passenger"). The way to ensure that > an object or agent does not go outside certain bounds (e.g., to erase or > overwrite files) is not to trust some issuer of a credential from afar > but to require specific allocation of access rights in the object or > actor itself. (This is not meant to be the most concise or elegant > phrasing of what capabilities are. Cf. the usual sources, includinging > Hardy, Tenenbaum, Miller, etc.) > [good stuff deleted] I've been thinking along these lines myself - Tim got to the post first. There are two points I'd like to make. 1. The reasons which are publicly aired for installing the current 'security' regime are (in my considered opinion) NOT the actually reasons. US airlines insisting on IDs which match tickets has nothing to do with airline security, and everything to do with extracting as much cash as possible from the public. Before the Pan Am 800 accident, when people were freeer, there was a secondary market in airline tickets which the original purchasers could not, for one reason or another, use. If you bought a non-refundable return ticket, and then could not use it, you could sell it to someone who did want to travel on those dates to that location. The price varied, but was less than the cost to the repurchaser of buying a ticket from the airline. Due to the vast cost differential (up to 10:1) between the cost of a ticket to fly tomorrow, vs the cost of a 'two week advance, stay Saturday night' Supersaver, it was actually economic for large corporations to buy a steady supply of Supersavers, and hand them out in pairs to execs who had to make quick trips - it was cheaper to eat the cost of the unused whole or half tickets than to buy them only when they were needed. The airlines hated this. The 'you must have a government id which matches the name on the ticket' rule put an end to the fungibility of airline tickets, which boosted their bottom line. It's got nothing to do with security. ----------- 2. The capability vs credential argument runs all through security. For example: Signed ActiveX code is using the credential model, while the Java sandbox uses the capability model. Another: 'Trust us not to look at your email without a warrant' is the credential model. 'Encrypt your email so they cant look at it' is the capability model. Techies tend to prefer the capability model over the credential model - it not only works, but can be seen to work, and does not rely on trust. Institutions prefer that people use the credential model, since that allows them to change the rules at the drop of a hat. You can imagine applying the two models to airline passengers, both of which would act to reduce the frequency of security problems: 1. Capability model: You don't need to have ID at all, you can pay cash on the plane (as I used to do on People Express) but you'll get searched up the wazoo, and everything down to a too-sharp pencil confiscated. 2. Credential model: You can take your Glock on board, provided it's loaded with frangible bullets. However you'll have to have biometricaly enabled ID from the NRA certifying that you've taken the 'Guns on Planes' course, a signed affadavit from a psychiatrist saying you're sane and not overly excitable, and a note from Mom saying you can. Both are better from a security point of view than having unidentified armed people on board. Always remember: The *stated* reason an institution puts a restrictive policy is put in place do not necessarily have anything to do with the *actual* reason the institution wants to put it in place. Peter Trei From cypherpunks at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 07:13:12 2001 From: cypherpunks at ssz.com (cypherpunks at ssz.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 16:13:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: wireless modems again Message-ID: <20011108151312.53528528E7@smtp.cronos.org> The actual modems are on MDT's that are using cell frquencys to connect. They hop from cell to cell as they travel. but in a limited area From RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com Thu Nov 8 16:34:09 2001 From: RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com (SIGNATURES) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 16:34:09 Subject: ADV: ATTN: Church Athletic Director Message-ID: <200111082231.RAA10891@waste.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com Thu Nov 8 17:27:01 2001 From: RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com (SIGNATURES) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:27:01 Subject: ADV: ATTN: Church Athletic Director Message-ID: <200111082324.PAA05895@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com Thu Nov 8 17:27:01 2001 From: RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com (SIGNATURES) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:27:01 Subject: ADV: ATTN: Church Athletic Director Message-ID: <200111082220.OAA06475@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 8 17:54:49 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:54:49 -0800 Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BEAC6E9.32485.1E21872@localhost> -- James A. Donald: > > If the anthrax attack is connected to the 9/11 attack, > > then the fibbies get to play errand boy for the CIA and > > military intelligence. If the anthrax attack is > > internal, then they are in charge and they get to spy on > > all us right wing extremist hate groups. On 8 Nov 2001, at 15:18, Trei, Peter wrote: > What's this 'us' bit? Jim, I don't know what 'right wing > extremist hate groups' you may belong to, but don't confuse > such groups with the subscribers to this open mailing list, > especially to third parties. For those who are seriously slow on the uptake, I will explain in words of one syllable: Should the FBI RICO members of this mailing list, the list will be reported in the press as a right wing extremist hate group. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG T3YLPjqqTU5N/sGmmkd4D5i8t6v6D3lSSKZR/nwu 4DYjwzhJi+X0xxCtjXeHqxREeq0OStsCDPG4mooMj From patty_822 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 15:17:40 2001 From: patty_822 at yahoo.com (Patty) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 18:17:40 -0500 Subject: Your Classified Ad Message-ID: <2262116-220011148231740770@yahoo.com> If you are like me, you probably are looking for a business that is simple and has no risk. My husband and I have tried many advertising systems and on-line businesses and had little success until we found an amazing catalog business. It was very easy for us to get started because the cost was $29 and we had 120 days risk-free 100% money back guaranteed refund if we didn't make any money within the first month or two. What we got for that small investment was hundreds of dollars of free Internet marketing training! When I found out that some of the biggest Internet players were also doing this business like crazy, we knew we had finally found the right business. These are the same guys that build web sites for some of the top Fortune 500 companies and they truly know how to Market online as well as make money with the Internet. Because we knew that 99% of North Americans order from catalogs, this business really interested us. The company's reorder rates are consistently documented at 95% or better every year for over 16 years! We knew that the business we build today would keep paying us over and over again... Take a couple of minutes and look at our site http://getresidualincomewith.freeleads4life.com and see if this is the system you've been looking for. Just copy and paste into your url. If you are failing in the other programs you are currently doing, you will quickly learn the real secrets to online success with a tremendous training system free! I look forward to hearing from you and having you on our TEAM! This email is sent in compliance with strict anti-abuse and NO SPAM regulations. Your address was collected as a result of posting to a link, a classified ad to my FFA Page, you have sent me an E-mail recently, or you are on a list that I have purchased. You may remove your E-mail address at no cost to you whatsoever by simply click on Reply button with "Remove" in the subject line. From piolenc at mozcom.com Thu Nov 8 02:36:46 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 18:36:46 +0800 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us References: Message-ID: <3BEA603E.8F7FA333@mozcom.com> Nomen Nescio wrote: > He suggests having no ID or other history information available to > help screeners make their decision, nothing but whatever clues can be > gleaned in the brief moments available. Anybody want to fly *those* > friendly skies? I already have...years ago. And I would gladly take whatever accrued risk there was to have those civilized times return. Marc de Piolenc From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 19:11:23 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 19:11:23 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <3BEB48FB.D3A19B34@mozcom.com> Message-ID: <7495D402-D4BF-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Thursday, November 8, 2001, at 07:09 PM, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Tim May wrote: > >> Nomen Nescio and others should read Chaum's "Credentials without >> identity" papers. A true name is just another credential, not >> necessarily more important than any of several other credentials. >> People >> should think deeply about this issue. > > I would like to read these papers. Are they available on-line? > If they are, search engines will very likely have indexed them. I would do the search for you, but your retainer has expired. Some of the primary papers are: David Chaum. Showing credentials without identification: Signatures transferred between unconditionally unlinkable pseudonyms. In Advances in Cryptology --- Eurocrypt '85, pages 241--244, New York, 1985. Springer-Verlag. Chaum, D. and J.H. Evertse, Showing credentials without identification: signatures transferred between unconditionally unlinkable pseudonyms, Proceedings of Crypto '86, Springer-Verlag, 1987. There is much discussion on the Cypherpunks list, and even reference in the Cyphernomicon. --Tim May "The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton From admin at americancenter.com Thu Nov 8 20:20:24 2001 From: admin at americancenter.com (ALC) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 20:20:24 PST Subject: American Language Center- 156-0000 Pozdravlyaem! Message-ID: <1492$999219783670864$10$0@exploder1.em5000.com> Поздравляем с Революцией Центр Американского Английского ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Call Now! Звоните Cейчас. Visit Today! Приходите Сегодня. 156-00-00, 159-57-34, 274-22-15 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Английский разговорный с преподавателями из США МЫШЛЕНИЕ, ПРОИЗНОШЕНИЕ, СТИЛЬ РЕЧИ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Эксклюзивная авторская методика Все стадии обучения : от нуля до высшего ПРИЕМЛЕМЫЕ ЦЕНЫ плюс ВЫСШЕЕ КАЧЕСТВО LOWEST CHARGES plus HIGHEST GRATIFICATION ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Moscow, Russia ------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, please click or copy and paste the following address into your browser: http://em5000.com/unsub.php?client=twisted_solo&listname=alc&email=cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4340 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Thu Nov 8 18:45:47 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 21:45:47 -0500 Subject: Slashdot: IBM Crypto up for grabs Message-ID: <20011108214546.A5458@ils.unc.edu> /. coverage is at http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/11/09/008229 Evidently, this was covered on BBC Newsnight. >From the article at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/descrack/ Extracting a 3DES key from an IBM 4758 Summary The IBM 4758 is an extremely secure crytographic co-processor. It is used by banking systems and in other security conscious applications to hold keying material. It is designed to make it impossible to extract this keying material unless you have the correct permissions and can involve others in a conspiracy. We are able, by a mixture of sleight-of-hand and raw processing power, to persuade an IBM 4758 running IBM's ATM (cash machine) support software called the "Common Cryptographic Architecture" (CCA) to export any and all its DES and 3DES keys to us. All we need is: * about 20 minutes uninterrupted access to the device * one person's ability to use the Combine_Key_Parts permission * a standard off-the-shelf $995 FPGA evaluation board from Altera * about two days of "cracking" time The attack can only be performed by an insider with physical access to the cryptographic co-processor, but they can act alone. The FPGA evaluation board is used as a "brute force key cracking" machine. Programming this is a reasonably straightforward task that does not require specialist hardware design knowledge. Since the board is pre-built and comes with all the necessary connectors and tools, it is entirely suitable for amateur use. Besides being the first documented attack on the IBM 4758 to be run "in anger", we believe that this is only the second DES cracking machine in the open community that has actually been built and then used to find an unknown key! Until IBM fix the CCA software to prevent our attack, banks are vulnerable to a dishonest branch manager whose teenager has $995 and a few hours to spend in duplicating our work. Contents From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 21:49:41 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 21:49:41 -0800 Subject: America the Damned Message-ID: <921D99E6-D4D5-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> The Sedition Laws are back. Be afraid, be _very_ afraid. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011108/us/attacks_sedition_1.html Some excerpts: Thursday November 8 2:28 PM ET Sedition Law Used to Hold Suspects By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - Prosecutors seeking to hold people they suspect were in the early stages of terrorist plots may turn anew to a very old weapon - the Civil War-era law on sedition. Last week, prosecutors cited the rarely invoked law in the case of a student being detained in New York, and hinted they might make fuller use of it in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks. ... Law enforcement officials, speaking only on condition of anonymity, said prosecutors are examining other cases in which they might use the sedition law against people who did not carry out attacks but had been in various stages of planning. ... The government used the sedition law after World War I to convict anarchists. In the 1950s, the Supreme Court upheld convictions of communists on sedition charges for teaching doctrines that were held to be subversive. ``These weren't people blowing things up; they were basically basement seminars where people would read Marx,'' said constitutional law professor Richard Primus of the University of Michigan. ... Chicago attorney Jeremy Margolis successfully prosecuted four Puerto Rican nationalists for seditious conspiracy in the 1980s for planning to bomb a Marine training center and an Army Reserve facility. The object of the conspiracy was to change the policies of the U.S. government ``as opposed to doing a particular criminal act - blow that up, take that down, shoot that person,'' Margolis recalled. --end excerpt-- TCM comments: -- How is what we on this list, in our physical meetings for the past 9 years, our other activities, any different from the cases just cited, of "they were basically basement seminars where people would read Marx,'' (*) and of being "anarchists" and of "The object of the conspiracy was to change the policies of the U.S. government"? (* except we read folks nearly the polar opposite of Marx, but just as dangerous to the American Way) -- the witch hunts of the 50s are coming back with a vengeance, faster than anyone predicted...we've got Alan Dershowitz suggesting that the rack be brought back ("with proper torture warrants"), we've got airline passengers surrounded by soldiers and questioned about the novel found in their luggage, we've got a thousand or so persons detained without due process/habeas corpus, and we've got got drastic new police state measures in the offensively-named "USA PATRIOT Act." -- I wonder who'll star in the new CBS production of "I Led Three Lives"? --Tim May "You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael Shirley From Missynursern at aol.com Thu Nov 8 19:20:01 2001 From: Missynursern at aol.com (Missynursern at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:20:01 EST Subject: Interested in working at home. Message-ID: <171.3a0c267.291ca561@aol.com> Hello, I am interested in working from home. Please send me information. Missynursern at aol.com MDixon RN From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 22:28:57 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:28:57 -0800 Subject: Declan should be ashamed Message-ID: <0DCEACEB-D4DB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Cypherpunks, I just had an amusing online experience. I checked in on Declan's "Wartime Liberty" news site, which I hadn't visited in for a month or so. It is: http://www.wartimeliberty.com Well, a banner ad began blinking in bright red at about 30 Hz, saying "If this banner ad is blinking, you have won a free prize!" Normally I can ignore these pieces of shit, but this same ad blinked in all of the subsections (encryption, policy, opinion, etc.) I checked. Very annoying. I never click on banner ads, but I decided to do an experiment, just to see what sort of company Declan has established this business relationship (of whatever kind) with. I'll spare you the details. Basically, I kept answering questions about my address and age and suchlike (I fibbed slightly, enough to look plausible but not enough to provide tips for the spam and passphrase harvesting I expect Declan's ad banner company is actually doing). After about four or five such screens, it finally told me to select the kinds of free prizes I wanted. All were of the usual bogus kind, including packets of advertising, discounts on subscriptions to magazines, etc. I clicked on none of them. Then came "da bomb": it asked me for the e-mail names of several other "friends." I left this blank and moved on. It wouldn't accept this, and kept returning to the nag screen demanding e-mail addresses. I left at this point. I guess I won't get my "free prize"! Sob. But the obnoxious blinking red banner ad is still telling me I've won a free prize. So I couldn't even stay on Declan's site, so obnoxious was the blinking banner. Declan, you really should be ashamed of yourself for this. Even if you don't personally choose all of the damned banner ads cluttering up your site, at least have the decency to not let spam harvesters run on your system! (I suspect they already harvested my "interest" as soon as I progressed to the "click to claim your prize" screen near the end. I'll be looking for spam arriving with the fibbed details I provided. My thought is maybe to bounce every one of these messages to Declan. Naw...) --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From info at giganetstore.com Thu Nov 8 14:33:16 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:33:16 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Leil=F5es_ao_Pre=E7o_da_Banana!?= Message-ID: <0c42231332208b1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> De: info at giganetstore.com Enviado: quinta-feira, 8 de Novembro de 2001 19:13 Para: mbr at giganetstore.com Assunto: Leilões ao Preço da Banana! Os leilões ao preço da Banana no Gigaleilão.com.pt Não perca estas oportunidades... Diablo II- jogo para PC A sequela do maior jogo de culto aclamado por todos! Por apenas 900$! Fecho 13/11 15:00 Base de licitação 900$ Design It ! Design it! 3D (Win). Magnífico negócio para os amantes de 3D. Compre já por apenas 1.000$ ! Fecho 13/11 15:00 Base de licitação 1.000$ Jurassic Park - DVD A obra prima de imaginação, suspense e magia de Steven Spielberg em DVD. Grande compra por 900$! Fecho 13/11 15:00 Base de licitação 900$ Picture It! da Microsoft Crie fotografias fantásticas com o Microsoft Picture It 2000. Preço irresistível a 10.000$! Fecho 13/11 15:00 Base de licitação 10.000$ E muito mais... em www.gigaleilao.com.pt . O novo serviço de leilões da giganetstore.com inédito e inovador no mercado online português. Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list clique em Retirar Mail -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5423 bytes Desc: not available URL: From webmaster at ehuntingcentral.com Thu Nov 8 22:58:23 2001 From: webmaster at ehuntingcentral.com (eHuntingCentral) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:58:23 -0800 Subject: Check Out This Hunting Site!! Message-ID: <2b9c201c168eb$ec766570$141223d0@ehuntingcentral> It's finally here again and like all of us here at eHuntingCentral, we're sure everyone's making plans and getting ready for a successful hunting season! If you haven't had the opportunity to take advantage of the tools our hunting site offers, now would be a great time to check us out! What makes our site different from other hunting sites? eHuntingCentral is designed and written by hunters, for hunters for the sole purpose of providing hunting information and tools that were once so difficult for hunters like ourselves to locate. Through this site, hunters can now access the most up-to-date hunting information available on the web in one easy convenient location. Based on our own hunting experiences, we have gathered information and provided tools that we feel will be a valuable asset to hunters of all game! To help make this year's hunts a success, eHuntingCentral has enhanced and added several new features to benefit all hunters. These features include: Trophy Gallery - A fun feature that allows members to share their hunting photos with others on the site. Simply upload your digital pictures into the proper categories so everyone can enjoy them. My Journal - It's your own personal journal that allows you to record hunting dates, weather conditions, game, equipment and other information about each of your hunts. You can store landowner information as well as hunting locations with latitude and longitude coordinates. There are also links to provide aerial photos of your hunting locations. My Calendar - This feature is especially beneficial to guides to help you keep track of all your scheduled hunts. It's designed to schedule hunting trips online and to eliminate the need for paper calendars. We will keep 3 years of history for you to review and you can schedule as far in the future as you would like. *The last two features are strictly private and accessible only to you when you logon with your email address and password. Even better, it's accessible by you from any location that has Internet access. Take the opportunity now to list any items you have for sale in our Classified or Auction sections, advertise your hunting related web sites in our Links section and gain exposure for your business by sending us your (468 X 60) banner ad so that we can display it throughout our site. For all you Guides, remember to list your service in both the Links section and the Guides section and post any hunting pictures in our Trophy Gallery. The Guide Search now contains a link to view all your photos from your guide listing. As our policy has always been, membership to this site, including the updated and added features, is absolutely FREE! Take a look at some of the other features currently offered: * Customizable Home Page (Your Weather and Your Links) * Field Reports * Classifieds * Discussions/Forums * Links * Auctions * Hunt Swaps * Guide/Outfitter Search * Recipes * Tips Happy Hunting! eHuntingCentral http://www.ehuntingcentral.com ************************************************************* And as always, if you received this email and are not interested in the site, topics or receiving future emails. Please go to http://www.ehuntingcentral.com/remove.asp , enter your Email Address and click the Remove button. This will remove you from our mailing list. ************************************************************* -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4351 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sws202000 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 23:54:27 2001 From: sws202000 at yahoo.com (Shaun) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:54:27 Subject: Why do 95% of internet business fail & only 5% succeed Message-ID: <200111081353.FAA16931@toad.com> Dear Entrepreneur: Can you honestly say that you're earning the type of income you thought you would when you first began your networking career? Unfortunately, the history of networking says that there's a 95% chance you are not earning what you would like to earn. How many different opportunities have you been involved with? How many times have you thought, "This is the one"? If you are one of the 5% of networkers who is earning a good income, what about your team? How many of them are successful? Regretfully, you know the answer to that question as well as we do....VERY FEW! Does it bother you to know that as many as 95% of the people in your group won't even recover what they have paid to get involved? It DOES NOTT MAKE SENSE, DOES IT? How can so many people who have been successful in other walks of life, fail so miserably in networking? The Answer: Network marketing for the most part, is based on the theory of "Internal Consumption." That is, the VAST majority of the company's products are purchased and consumed by distributors, NOT real customers! Let me ask you: How many supermarkets, department stores, car dealerships, etc., do you think would survive if they depended PRIMARILY on purchases by their employees of the company's products to keep them in business? As the same rule applies in the real world of business ... It is the same with networking and home-based business. A 95% failure rate makes this clear. Even networking companies that are truely product and consumer driven find many of their distributors failing. Why? Because people simply DO NOT LIKE TO SELL! Unfortunately, for 90% or more of the distributors in any typical network marketing company, it DOESN'T MATTER how great their products are supposed to be, or how fantastic the comp plan is, or how strong the company and management team are... The VAST MAJORITY of distributors WILL STILL FAIL because people simply DO NOT LIKE TO SELL!! You nor I will EVER change that part of human nature for the masses. Is there an answer? Yes, there is, but you won't find it in any Network Marketing training manual. Unfortunately, most company owners and their top leaders already know that the vast majority won't be successful. Yet, we continue to see company after company spring up with more rhetoric, promises, etc. Why? Because the ONLY people who are guaranteed to earn any significant income if the company lasts, are the owners and their top people. Sorry, but the truth is the truth! Forget the rhetoric we're now hearing about selling online because, once again, in the year 2000, more than 90% of all online businesses DIDN'T MAKE A PROFIT! The sad part is, if we continue to do the same things over and over again that have only produced failure in the past, the result will always be the same: MORE FAILURE. While a quality product, good compensation, a strong management team, and a financially sound company are all important to the success of any company, none of these factors can replace the single most important feature that a networking company MUST HAVE ... The average person must have a chance of finding LONGTERM success. Does this mean that networking is bad? Not at all. What it does mean is that the way networking has been historically promoted for years with the emphasis on "internal product consumption" (where the distributors purchase the vast majority of products for personsal use) will continue to produce a 95% failure rate. We have a solution that works for anyone who is willing to work steadily, is consistent, and can read and follow a very simple system that was designed for beginners. This system has proven successful every time over the years for those who followed it. If you would like to experience results in your life, email us at < sean_stamm at yahoo.com > with "Information request" in the subject. Please include your name, country, and phone number so that we can send you the correct information. We will email you an introduction about our company and our entire system at no cost to you. We will not email you ridiculous promises, or UNPROVEN OR FAILED THEORIES...Just the facts! While no one can or should ever guarantee your success in any business, here's one thing we do promise you: The TRUTH and a system that will show you HOW TO DO THINGS STEP-BY-STEP! From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 22:25:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 00:25:55 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Scientists invent transistor made of one molecule - November 8, 2001 Message-ID: <3BEB76F3.C3AEC9EF@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/11/08/tiny.transistors.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 22:30:14 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 00:30:14 -0600 Subject: Sedition Law Used to Hold Suspects Message-ID: <3BEB77F6.EF7BCB63@ssz.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011108/us/attacks_sedition_1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From verba at rol.it Thu Nov 8 15:57:03 2001 From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 00:57:03 +0100 Subject: Verba Volant del 09-11-01 Message-ID: <1005267424@web_ext.logos.it> Verba Volant del 09-11-01, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com _________________ Quotation of the day: Author - Luciano Somma English - a specialist is one who knows more and more about less and less, ultimately knowing everything� about nothing! Italian - uno specialista � uno che sa sempre di pi� su sempre di meno, fino a sapere tutto... di nulla! Spanish - especialista es el que sabe cada vez m�s sobre cada vez menos, hasta que llega a saberlo todo... de nada! French - un sp�cialiste est une personne qui en sait toujours plus sur de moins en moins de choses, jusqu'� en arriver par tout savoir...sur rien! Portuguese - um especialista � algu�m que sabe cada vez mais sobre cada vez menos, at� saber tudo... sobre nada! Brazilian Portuguese - um especialista � algu�m que sabe cada vez mais sobre cada vez menos, at� saber tudo... sobre nada! German - ein Spezialist ist jemand, der immer mehr �ber immer weniger Dinge wei�, bis er schlie�lich... nichts mehr wei�! Hungarian - a szakember az, aki egyre t�bbet tud egyre kevesebb dologr�l, m�g v�g�l m�r mindent tud ... a semmirol Finnish - spesialisti on henkil�, joka tiet�� aina enemm�n aina v�hemm�st�, tiet�en lopulta kaiken ... ei mist��n! Catalan - un especialista �s un que sap sempre m�s sobre menys, fins a saber tot ... de res! Croatian - specijalista je onaj tko zna sve vi�e o sve manjem do tocke da zna sve o nicemu Czech - odborn�k je ten, kdo v� st�le v�ce o st�le m�ne vecech, a� nakonec v� v�echno o nicem! Dutch - een specialist is iemand die meer en meer weet over minder en minder, tot hij alles weet over... niets Emiliano-Romagnolo - e' spezalest l'e on cal sa semper ad pi� dint'al semper ad min; da oltim, as radana a saver ma tott dint'a gint de tott Furlan - un spezalist al � un cal sa simpri di plui su simpri di mancul, fin a sav� dut... di nuje! Latin - peritissimus est quidam sapiens magis magisque de minimis ita ut omnia nullius rei sciat Latvian; Lettish - specialists ir tas, kur� zina vairak un vairak par mazak un mazak, galu gala zinot visu ... par neko! Occitan - un especialista es un que sai totjorn de mai sus totjorn de mens, fins a saber tot de ren! Polish - specjalista to ten, kt�ry wie coraz wiecej o coraz to mniej, az do dowiedzenia sie wszystkiego... o niczym Romanian - un specialist este cel ce stie tot mai mult despre tot mai putin, p�na a sti totul .... despre nimic! Slovak - �pecialista je ten, kto vie st�le viac o menej veciach, a� nakoniec vie v�etko o nicom Venetian - on specialista xe uno che sa senpre de pi� so senpre de manco, fin a savere tuto .... de gnente! Flemish - een specialist is iemand die meer en meer weet over minder en minder, tot hij alles weet over... niets Calabrese - nu specialista � unu ca sa sempri di chi� e sempri di menu,finu a sapiri tuttu... di nente! Reggiano - un special�sta l'� un che n'in s� s�imper 'na m�cia ins�ma a s�imper meno, fin a tant che al s� tott..ed gnint! Ferrarese - un specialista l'� un c'al s� sempar ad pi� riguard a sempar ad men, fin a saver tutt... ad gni�nt! Bolognese - un spezial�ssta l � �n ch�l in s� s�nper de pi� ed s�nper manc qu�, inf�n a savair inc�sa� d ign�nt! _________________ All languages, please click on this link http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=440 _________________ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:" From nobody at dizum.com Thu Nov 8 16:10:08 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 01:10:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection Message-ID: There are so many misconceptions floating around here it's hard to know where to begin. But let's start with two points of agreement. First, airport screening is far from perfect. There is no way to detect all possible threats coming on the airplane. And given the technology and time available, it will always be possible to smuggle aboard knives, explosives and other dangerous devices more than sufficient to risk the lives of everyone on that airplane. Second, no ID based system is perfect, either. People can falsify their ID with varying degrees of expense and difficulty. Moving to biometrics can help but these can be spoofed as well. But to conclude from these points that we should just let everyone walk onto a plane with no more than the cursory inspection that has been used in the past is pure bullshit. Absence of perfection is no argument against a system. Someone once said that "all cryptography is economics." Well, all security is economics as well. Any argument which is based on the fact that loopholes and failures will exist is irrelevant. The point of security is to raise the cost of breaching it. That's all. Understanding and accepting this would raise the level of the dialog considerably. Given this fact, it makes no sense to intentionally blind screeners to relevant data when performing their security analysis. Those guards should have every scrap of information possible available to them. People who have a history of violence, who make threats, who are associates with known terrorists, all represent correspondingly greater risks. An efficient screening system will use this information to determine how carefully each passenger is examined. Resources are finite, and it is highly inefficient to apply exactly the same procedure to each individual. You'll have far more security for the same cost by allocating greater security resources to those individuals who pose the greatest risk based on the data available. They are the ones who need their bags hand-searched. They need the metal detector wand run over their entire bodies. They can empty their pockets and have their shoes removed and inspected. It is not practical to apply this level of scrutiny to every passenger. But by making use of public information, high risk individuals can be subjected to high levels of inspection. This is where the irony was pointed out, of cypherpunks calling for limits on the use of information! A group which prides itself on developing technologies that can keep damaging information alive is suddenly afraid, now that they may be the ones to suffer from their own past words. Tim May himself has called for the nuclear destruction of Washington, DC. He has expressed support for the actions of Tim McMay, sorry, McVeigh. He threatens death to judges, police officers, even reporters who misquote him. He has said that the local police have put him on their watch list as a potentially dangerous individual. Clearly, he would be a prime target for any selective screening effort. And this is entirely appropriate. Certainly many of us here would feel more comfortable riding on a plane with an unstable, violent individual if he had been searched thoroughly, preferably including body cavities. Some have claimed to object only because the government is involved in the search. That's a red herring in this case. Yes, the government is setting security policies, but they are only responding to public demand. Any fully private security system would see the same kinds of checks in order to get the flying public back into the air. No one wants to fly with someone who has a history of calling for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government at a time when planes are being turned into guided missiles. Then there is the absurd fantasy that if unregulated, some airlines would differentiate themselves by offering minimal screening in order to corner the lucrative market composed of all the Tim McVeighs of the world. Only a blind man would think that businesses work this way. In every industry there are a limited number of profitable market niches and companies fight for those. Fringe markets, like people who want to fly with unscreened terrorists, are not served. (Look at all the successful companies selling products to cypherpunks.) There would be no airlines seeking such a market. At a time when passenger levels have dropped precipitously the airlines will do everything they can to assure their passengers that they are safe. That means screening of exactly the type we are discussing. A few other irrelevant points have been made. Given that ID is not perfectly reliable, do we need to tattoo numbers on people's forearms? This is the fallacy of perfection. ID can be combined with a simple thumbprint for biometric identification (already widely used for cashing checks) and you will raise the cost of forgery considerably. Many of the hijackers would have been caught simply by cross-referencing their IDs against existing databases. That's what El Al does and they have an excellent safety record in the most terrorist-infested part of the world. What about Chaum credentials? Well, how would they help? Are you going to show a not-a-terrorist credential? No one is in a position to issue such a thing. And even if you had one, how would you prove it isn't stolen? If ID can be forged then so can any other sort of credential. The Chaum technology is nothing but a pipe dream anyway. It's never been used and never will be, because there is no incentive (see above re unserved markets). Then there is this whole "credential vs capability" debate. This is nothing but an ivory tower abstraction with very little relevance to the practical problems involved in screening real people before they get on an airplane. Here's an arab guy who looks shifty and nervous. They do a biometric face scan and run it through the customs database against known terrorists. Is that a credential? A capability? Neither, it's just good security sense and the use of all information resources available. When confronted with an unpleasant reality, cypherpunks retreat into their imaginary world of abstractions. That doesn't help when planes are falling from the skies. Try to stick with reality for a few minutes at least. Information which is available will be used. Screeners are free to use any and all information that is relevant in assessing risk. If cypherpunks would remove their blinders they would see that this is entirely in keeping with the ideas of Blacknet and information wanting to be free. What, is Blacknet going to refuse to sell to Argenbright? This is how far cypherpunks have come from their free market roots, that somehow they think that information can be kept under wraps just because it doesn't fit their ideology. It's amazing to see a supposedly pro-information group suddenly claiming that their own pasts should be off limits when faced with a life or death situation. Cypherpunks need to take a harder look at themselves and resolve this contradiction. From bounce at fantasy-mail.com Thu Nov 8 17:30:34 2001 From: bounce at fantasy-mail.com (Fantasy Mail) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 01:30:34 GMT Subject: We Haven't Heard From You Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3052 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kmself at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 9 02:07:05 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 02:07:05 -0800 Subject: WashPost: DoJ to monitor lawyer's calls Message-ID: <20011109020704.A26565@navel.introspect> Pointer from Dan Gillmor's SJMerc column. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64663-2001Nov8.html U.S. Will Monitor Calls to Lawyers Rule on Detainees Called 'Terrifying' By George Lardner Jr. Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, November 9, 2001; Page A01 The Justice Department has decided to listen in on the conversations of lawyers with clients in federal custody, including people who have been detained but not charged with any crime, whenever that is deemed necessary to prevent violence or terrorism. Attorney General John D. Ashcroft approved the eavesdropping rule on an emergency basis last week, without the usual waiting period for public comment. It went into effect immediately, permitting the government to monitor conversations and intercept mail between people in custody and their attorneys for up to a year at a time. The move, which the Justice Department said was necessary "in view of the immediacy of the dangers to the public," stunned defense lawyers and civil libertarians. They assailed it as an unconstitutional attack on the right to counsel and, in the words of American Civil Liberties Union official Laura W. Murphy, "a terrifying precedent." The monitoring of attorney-client conversations is the latest in a series of extraordinary law enforcement measures the government has taken in response to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. President Bush last week signed the USA Patriot Act, a bill that gives the government a freer hand to conduct searches, detain or deport suspects, eavesdrop on Internet communications, monitor financial transactions and obtain electronic records on individuals. The administration also has promised to crack down on immigration violations, Congress is considering legislation to tighten airport security, and Ashcroft announced yesterday that he is reorganizing the Justice Department and FBI to concentrate on terrorism. Until now, communications between inmates and their attorneys have been exempt from the usual monitoring of social phone calls and visits at the 100 federal prisons around the country. According to a summary published in the Federal Register Oct. 31, the monitoring will be conducted without a court order whenever the attorney general certifies "that reasonable suspicion exists to believe that an inmate may use communications with attorneys or their agents to facilitate acts of terrorism." The definition of "inmate" previously covered only people in custody of the federal Bureau of Prisons, but it was changed to cover anyone "held as witnesses, detainees or otherwise" by INS agents, U.S. marshals or other federal authorities. Since Sept. 11, the government has detained nearly 1,200 people, many on immigration violations. The Bush administration has declined to say how many have been released. Explaining the new rule, the Justice Department said authorities "may have substantial reason to believe that certain inmates who have been involved in terrorist activities will pass messages through their attorneys (or the attorney's legal assistant or an interpreter) to individuals on the outside for the purpose of continuing terrorist activities." The president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, Irwin Schwartz of Seattle, denounced the eavesdropping as "an abomination" and said it would be challenged in court at the first opportunity. "The Code of Professional Responsibility is quite clear: a lawyer must maintain confidentiality," Schwartz said. "If we can't speak with a client confidentially, we may not speak with him at all. And if we can't do that, the client is stripped of his Sixth Amendment right to have a lawyer." The Justice Department said it will set up "procedural safeguards" to protect the right to counsel. Inmates and their attorneys will be notified "of the government's listening activities," and the monitoring will be done by a special "taint team" that will not disclose what it hears to federal prosecutors or investigators without approval by a federal judge, officials said. Records of clearly privileged information, such as a discussion about a client's defense, will not be retained by the monitors, the department said. "Apart from disclosures necessary to thwart an imminent act of violence or terrorism, any disclosures to investigators or prosecutors must be approved by a federal judge," it added. The critics were not mollified. "Who's going to be on the taint team?" asked Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies, a nonprofit group in Washington. "The government says it's building a mosaic, processing thousands of bits and pieces of information that may seem innocuous at first glance. How is the 'taint team' going to know if something a person says to a lawyer is part of the mosaic or not without sharing it with others? This seems to be a useless safeguard. What if they think what they overhear is in code?" Martin said monitoring of witnesses and others who have not been convicted would be "particularly outrageous." Murphy, who is director of the ACLU's Washington national office, agreed, saying, "the idea that this could be happening to innocent people is really disturbing." A lawyer's effectiveness, she added, can be dramatically diminished if the government is listening in, making a client fearful of disclosing all that the attorney needs to know to mount a forceful defense. The attorney-client eavesdropping authority is an addition to the "special administrative measures" the government has imposed on certain inmates since the World Trade Center bombing in 1993 and the bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995. They include solitary confinement, interception of mail and restrictions on visitors and telephone calls. But until Ashcroft signed the new regulation, they were limited to 120-day periods. Now, all such steps can be ordered for a year at a time and renewed indefinitely at one-year intervals. Those under "special measure" regimes include Omar Abdul Rahman, the blind sheik convicted in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing; Abdul Hakim Murad and Wali Khan Amin Shah, convicted of conspiracy to blow up 12 civilian jumbo jets; Eyad Ismail and Ramzi Yousef, two others convicted in the WTC bombing; Wadih Hage, convicted of conspiring to kill Americans around the world; and Mohammed Saddiq Odeh and Mohamed Rashed Daoud Owhali, who were convicted in the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. At a trial last June, an Algerian witness said Rahman issued a "fatwa" or religious ruling from prison, telling followers to "fight Americans and hit their interests everywhere." Staff researcher Lynn Davis contributed to this report. ) 2001 The Washington Post Company -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From specialoffers at freesamples.com Fri Nov 9 03:45:51 2001 From: specialoffers at freesamples.com (specialoffers at freesamples.com) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 03:45:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Experience these just-for-Mom rewards! Message-ID: <200111091145.fA9Bjok26037@mail2.freesamples.com> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rewarding And Celebrating Moms ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | www.clubmom.com | Dear Richard, You can holiday shop till you drop and drain your wallet dry. Or you can enter ClubMom's "Tons of Toys for the Holidays" sweepstakes* for the chance to win a $1,000 KB Toys shopping spree and the help of a personal toy shopper. Entering is easy: Answer the one-question, daily poll about holiday shopping on ClubMom.com. And enter once a day, every day to maximize your chances of winning. Join ClubMom now to enter the Tons of Toys for the Holidays sweepstakes, plus get all the other rewards and benefits just for Moms--expert advice, special offers, helpful checklists, and Mom message boards. Visit http://www.clubmom.com/promotions/promotion.jhtml?sourceid=$aKBT$tTXT$pFSP$c012 to enter the sweepstakes. Sincerely, Anne ClubMom Advocate www.clubmom.com /---------------------------------------------------------------------------/ * No purchase necessary. Must be U.S. resident 18 years of age or older. Sweepstakes ends 11:59 pm E.S.T. on 11/26/01. Void where prohibited. Visit http://www.clubmom.com/promotions/rules.jhtml?sourceid=$aKBT for Official Rules. Join ClubMom and enter the Tons of Toys for the Holidays Sweepstakes visit http://www.clubmom.com/promotions/promotion.jhtml?sourceid=$aKBT When you registered, you indicated you would like to receive information about special offers from our partners. To avoid receiving future notifications of special offers, please login to www.FreeSamples.com?v=cms and go to the My Preference page to update your preferences. Please note: this message was sent from a send only mailbox, please do not reply to this message. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4439 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bounce at fantasy-mail.com Thu Nov 8 21:46:35 2001 From: bounce at fantasy-mail.com (Fantasy Mail) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 05:46:35 GMT Subject: We Have Received Your Confirmation Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7112 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Fri Nov 9 08:13:55 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 06:13:55 -1000 Subject: more on Nancy Oden In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109061139.02b1a100@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> I can honestly claim contact with Britons, mostly (but not exclusively) occurring during port visits to Hong Kong and other liberty ports where they were present ashore. At 01:57 PM 11/9/01 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >british males call eachother cunts all the time. >i'm not sure if this is related. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sandy Sandfort" >To: "Reese" ; >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 5:51 PM >Subject: RE: more on Nancy Oden > > >> That's nonsense. Please explain the informational content of the >> word "cunt" as you used it. By the way, there is no validity in >> trying to hand the "PC" sign on me for two reasons: a) I'm about >> as far as you can get from being PC, and b) your use PC accusation >> makes sense ONLY if your use of the word "cunt" was meant as a >> general reference to women. You cannot have it both ways. From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 9 06:52:17 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 06:52:17 -0800 Subject: America the Damned In-Reply-To: <24fd34e020efbe5fba945a8d91417ebd@dizum.com> Message-ID: <200111091157.GAA24715@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Nomen Nescio wrote: >It was only when Tim May turned away from cryptography and shifted his >focus to firearms and Y2K and violent fantasies of revenge that the tone >of the group changed. It is very likely that many of his writings fit >the definition above, being made "with intent to cause the overthrow >or destruction of any such government," and "advocating, advising, or >teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing >or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence". >Tim May has advised us many times to kill judges and police officers, >congressmen and jail guards. He has said endlessly that the U.S. >government needs to be overthrown by violence. This is not true, but a shrewd mistatement often used by law enforcement and rats out to cover their asses to please unknown authorities. Robb London, Jeff Gordon, the lady from Waco and USG-friendly witnesses have repeatedly made such mistatements. A fair number of subscribers here have made such mistatements here and at the Bell and CJ trials. What the mistatements disclose are attitudes and beliefs which lead to those famous eye-witness reports which seem unshakeably true until shown to be false by careful examination of the state of mind of the witness, and confrontation of the witness with alternative evidence. Now people do get sent to prison and executed on the basis of unture witness and expert testimonry, so these mistatements are not forgiveable, nor unpunishable, unless they are made from behind a protective shield, which most are, initially, and then, lo, the shield disappears when the distortion is no longer useful. So watch your assertions Nomen, for false accusations are mean sons of bitches that turn on you. You know I mean verbal retribution, don't you? When your anonymity disappears, which it has in case you've not noticed. >All of us will agree that such statements should be legal, on the >principle of freedom of speech, even if we find the sentiments abhorrent. >But these calls for violence have nothing to do with the cypherpunk >movement. They don't belong here. Tim May has turned this mailing list >into his personal toilet, an outlet for his impotent revenge fantasies. >In doing so he has not only destroyed what was once one of the finest >discussion forums in the world; he may have endangered other subscribers, >if those outdated and unconstitutional laws are ever put back into force. This is not true, but a willful mistatement. Tim May is a fine writer and thinker and exhorter. Your accusations fit many others on and off the Web but not Tim May. However, I expect you will be willing to testify, or have already testified, that what you fanatisize is true. This has been demonstrated here several times by others less able than Tim May. Nomen, there are many Tim Mays. Read the fucking archives to see who's driving you into the arms of the enemy. The enemy is not who you think either, for there are Tim Mays there you wouldn't believe. Lower your prejudice, jaundice and cowardice. Pay attention to discussions here and provoke violent behavior. Prepare for long-time in jail or a taste of the needle. Then you'll be believable and not a yellow-bellied finger pointin reporter of false facts to boost your career. All this is said to divert attention away from me and my unassailable protective cloak. --Tim May "You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael Shirley From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 9 05:53:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:53:00 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | IBM Crypto Up For Grabs? Message-ID: <3BEBDFBC.6C68951D@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/09/008229.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 9 05:57:35 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:57:35 -0600 Subject: FT.com | TotalSearch | Global Archive | Article - German government faces collapse over war Message-ID: <3BEBE0CF.DBC866CE@ssz.com> http://globalarchive.ft.com/globalarchive/article.html?id=011109001089 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 9 05:58:36 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:58:36 -0600 Subject: Clinton calls terror a U.S. debt to past -- The Washington Times Message-ID: <3BEBE10C.1C1D28AB@ssz.com> http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011108-470100.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jokes at freeall.com Fri Nov 9 08:06:37 2001 From: jokes at freeall.com (Free4all Jokes) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:06:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joke of the Day! from Free4all.com Message-ID: <20011109160637.65770.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com> --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- CLICK HERE FOR THOUSANDS OF JOKES OR TO SUBSCRIBE TO JOKE OF THE DAY --------------------------------- If you do not wish to receive this mail please unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to the unsubscribe address. Your unsubscribe address: jokes-unsubscribe-cypherpunks=toad.com at boss.free4all.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume on Yahoo! Careers. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alqaeda at hq.org Fri Nov 9 09:48:45 2001 From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:48:45 -0800 Subject: US psyops uses Napster to steal music for broadcast Message-ID: <3BEC16FC.EE964815@hq.org> http://www.msnbc.com/news/654592.asp?cp1=1 "He [Sgt in 4th psyops group] has downloaded hundreds more tunes from Internet sites that specialize in Afghan music." ---- No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. -GW Bush From nobody at dizum.com Fri Nov 9 00:50:10 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:50:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: America the Damned Message-ID: <24fd34e020efbe5fba945a8d91417ebd@dizum.com> http://law2.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+1050+18++%28sedition%29 U.S. Code Title 18, Chapter 115: Sec. 2384. Seditious conspiracy If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both. Sec. 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof - Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.... These laws broadly forbid organizing to use force to attack the government. But the cypherpunks movement was originally conceived as a way to evade government, not to attack it. Using cryptography, people could communicate freely and avoid government regulations; they could make voluntary agreements without the government being able to interfere; they could exchange goods and services of value without the government being able to take a share. None of this involved using force in any way. At most it would make the government irrelevant by giving people the opportunity voluntarily to move their activities out of its sphere of influence. It was only when Tim May turned away from cryptography and shifted his focus to firearms and Y2K and violent fantasies of revenge that the tone of the group changed. It is very likely that many of his writings fit the definition above, being made "with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government," and "advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence". Tim May has advised us many times to kill judges and police officers, congressmen and jail guards. He has said endlessly that the U.S. government needs to be overthrown by violence. All of us will agree that such statements should be legal, on the principle of freedom of speech, even if we find the sentiments abhorrent. But these calls for violence have nothing to do with the cypherpunk movement. They don't belong here. Tim May has turned this mailing list into his personal toilet, an outlet for his impotent revenge fantasies. In doing so he has not only destroyed what was once one of the finest discussion forums in the world; he may have endangered other subscribers, if those outdated and unconstitutional laws are ever put back into force. From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Nov 9 10:01:37 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:01:37 -0800 Subject: The Republican Position on USC T 18 Ch 115 Sec 2383ff Message-ID: <3BEC1A01.DFD4A850@lsil.com> What a guy! Abraham Lincoln : "Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." President Abraham Lincoln, "First Inaugural Address" (available at http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html) "Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable,---a most sacred right---a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it." (Speech in the United States House of Representatives, Jan. 12, 1848) As far as I am concerned, to the extent that a government restricts speech against it, it betrays its weakness and strengthens the oppostion. When was the last time we heard one of our current crop of political weenies speak so clearly or with such faith in the governed? Not in my lifetime. Mike From cfontenot1 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 9 10:02:56 2001 From: cfontenot1 at hotmail.com (coretta fontenot) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:02:56 -0800 Subject: explosives Message-ID: How can I make an explosive? its cause that's my science project This is my e-mail numberhottiev at excite.com please write back -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 581 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bounce at fantasy-mail.com Fri Nov 9 02:23:12 2001 From: bounce at fantasy-mail.com (Fresh by Fantasy Mail) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:23:12 GMT Subject: Fresh by Fantasy Mail Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8739 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pasticcanet at inwind.it Fri Nov 9 01:24:32 2001 From: pasticcanet at inwind.it (Samuel) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:24:32 +0100 Subject: cypherpunk list Message-ID: <001d01c16900$57b85820$f787623e@pasticcanet> From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Nov 9 10:30:29 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:30:29 -0800 Subject: The Republican Position on USC T 18 Ch 115 Sec 2383ff References: Message-ID: <3BEC20C5.F7D1A45C@lsil.com> OK, you got me, so I'm guilty of that political trick of ignoring the broader picture and using only partial facts in support of my own narrow point of view. sosumi ;) The words, taken on their own, are fine words and I stick by the bit about a government's willingness to persecute dissidents being a sign of its inherent weakness and lack of fitness to serve. Mike "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > > From: mmotyka at lsil.com[SMTP:mmotyka at lsil.com] > > What a guy! > > Abraham Lincoln : > > > > "Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can > > exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their > > revolutionary right to dismember or > > overthrow it." > > > > President Abraham Lincoln, "First Inaugural Address" (available at > > http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html) > > > > "Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the > > right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new > > one that suits them > > better. This is a most valuable,---a most sacred right---a right, which > > we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right > > confined to cases in which the > > whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it." > > > > (Speech in the United States House of Representatives, Jan. 12, 1848) > > > > > > As far as I am concerned, to the extent that a government restricts > > speech against it, it betrays its weakness and strengthens the > > oppostion. When was the last time we heard one of our current crop of > > political weenies speak so clearly or with such faith in the governed? > > Not in my lifetime. > > Mike > ------------ > As I said in an earlier post, there is usually a gulf - a huge one, between > what institutions say and what they do > > Consider these actions of Lincoln in the light the above quotes: > > >From 'Getting Lincoln Right': > http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman50.html > > [...] > Also, should those who debate the greatness of Lincoln > ignore the fact that he arrested and exiled a US Congressman > from Ohio - Clement Valladingham - who was also running for > governor of Ohio at the time, over anti-war remarks made > during a campaign speech? Valladingham was arrested in his > bedroom in the middle of the night. > > Should one also overlook Lincoln's destruction of the rule > of law in "loyal" Maryland? When Maryland voiced its support > for the CSA and appeared itself ready to secede, Lincoln > arrested 31 Maryland legislators, the mayor of Baltimore > (the nation's 3rd largest city at the time), and a US > Congressman from Maryland, as well as numerous editors and > publishers. > > Not only did Lincoln imprison two US Congressmen, he also > wrote out an arrest warrant for the Chief Justice of the US > Supreme Court, Roger Taney, after Taney wrote the opinion in > Ex Parte Merryman (1861) rebuking Lincoln's illegitimate > suspension of habeas corpus (see Charles Adams, p > 46-53). John Marshall, whose opinion in Marbury v. Madison > (1803) famously declared that "It is emphatically the > province and duty of the judicial department to say what the > law is," also wrote the opinion in Ex Parte Bollman and > Swartwout (1807) declaring that suspension of habeas corpus > was a power vested only in the Congress. Lincoln simply > ignored the law. Additionally, US Army troops refused to > release Merryman into the custody of a federal marshal sent > by Taney pursuant to the court order that Merryman be freed. > > Lincoln, then, imprisoned members of the federal legislative > branch, and also sought to imprison the chief member of the > federal judiciary. What happened to checks and balances? > Lincoln, with the backing of the army, simply exercised > whatever powers he desired. As noted Lincoln scholar Mark > Neely writes in The Last Best Hope of Earth, Lincoln > arrested the Marylanders "without much agonizing over their > constitutionality" (p 133). > [...] From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 9 09:07:59 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:07:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [EMED-L] abuse of ed's (fwd) Message-ID: Another not-so-benign view of national ID cards, brought to you by lamer with a license. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:31:27 -0500 From: owen bunnell Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners. To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU Subject: [EMED-L] abuse of ed's I HAVE READ WITH GREAT DISMAY CONCERNING THE ABUSE OF OUR NATIONS ED'S WHICH BY THE WAY HAS INCREASED THE WORK LOAD FOR US ALL. THERE IS ABUSE BY MILLIONS EVERYDAY WHO KNOW THEY CAN GO TO THE ED WITH FALSE CREDENTIALS, LIE ABOUT WHO THEY ARE, OR JUST REFUSE TO PAY THE FEE AT THERE PHYSICIANS OFFICE, WITH THE RESULT BEING THAT WE AS ED PHYSICIANS GET THE ULTIMATE 'DUMP'. THIS WILL NEVER GET FIXED UNTIL THERE IS SOME FORM OF REQUIRED NATIONAL ID CARD THAT YOU MUST PRESENT UPON ARRIVAL TO THE ED WHICH VERIFIES WHO YOU ARE WITH A UPDATED CORRECT ADDRESS, AND THE APPROVAL BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO ALLOW THIS TO BE IMPLEMENTED WITHOUT THREAT OF SUIT BY THE PATIENT. PATIENTS HAVE RIGHTS YES, BUT NOT THE RIGHT TO ABUSE OR COMMIT FRAUD. __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ To unsubscribe, send the command "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Nov 9 11:08:14 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:08:14 -0800 Subject: America the Damned Message-ID: <200111091908.fA9J8EP44139@mailserver1.hushmail.com> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. " Individuals are morally free to make the decision when the "Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends." And its their soverign duty to make war against the tyranny. Remember that only a small, perhaps less than 10%, of the Colonials took an active part in revolting against the Crowne. All Tim has done is advocated the same sort of treatment the founders advocated for formation of our country. All the goverment has done is to criminalize any utter of similar treatment of itself. Reminds me of the bumper stickers "Welcome to California, Now Go Home." Just what one expects from a statist group. Its OK that we were founded by revolution but not that we may be subjected to another revolution. Same as it ever was. While it is true that much of the early CP list debate centered on technology for empowerment of privacy, it was also regularly discussed that eventually the government might decide that such freedoms were damaging to their hegemony and take measures to punish adherents and suppliers of these "munitions". When one is subjected to tyranny one has several choices, including: hiding, kneeling and waiting for the shit to blow over, and fighting. This fighting may be in the legal arena, but in times of "national emergency" the likelyhood of finding an unbiased ear on the bench or the jury box may preclude a fair trial. In that case one might identify the oppressors and individually target them. I suggest if you find expression of such logical sentiment objectionable that you leave the list. From piolenc at mozcom.com Thu Nov 8 19:09:47 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 11:09:47 +0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection References: <8837126A-D470-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BEB48FB.D3A19B34@mozcom.com> Tim May wrote: > Nomen Nescio and others should read Chaum's "Credentials without > identity" papers. A true name is just another credential, not > necessarily more important than any of several other credentials. People > should think deeply about this issue. I would like to read these papers. Are they available on-line? Marc de Piolenc -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 9 09:30:01 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:30:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > jamesd at echeque.com[SMTP:jamesd at echeque.com] wrote: > > If the anthrax attack is internal, then they > > are in charge and they get to spy on all us right wing > > extremist hate groups. I may be a hate group, but I am NOT a _right wing_ hate group. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From morrow39 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 9 10:03:31 2001 From: morrow39 at hotmail.com (matt .) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:03:31 -0600 Subject: explosives Message-ID: Science project? omg shut the hell up. For all we know, your probably some crazed arab going on a suicide spree >From: "coretta fontenot" >To: >Subject: explosives >Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:02:56 -0800 > >How can I make an explosive? its cause that's my science project > > >This is my e-mail numberhottiev at excite.com please write back _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 12:06:09 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:06:09 -0800 Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks, November 10, 2001, San Francisco Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011109115246.03043bf0@idiom.com> See http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html for SF, Toronto, & Bangalore Cypherpunks announcements. SF Bay Area Cypherpunks November 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement General Info: DATE: Saturday 10 November 2001 TIME: 1-5 PM (Pacific Time) LOCATION: San Francisco Foundation, 225 Bush St., 5th Floor The password for making the door guard happy is "I'm here for the cypherpunks meeting". Agenda "Our agenda is a widely-held secret." As usual, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited. However, it's in an office building, so they'd appreciate if you have a nom de plume to sign in with. Any problems, call Bill Stewart at +1-415-307-7119. Black Unicorn continues with Part II of his talk on the black market, the manner in which it has evolved over the last quarter century, and the lessons cypherpunks might be able to learn about networks, infastructures, security and black markets in general. Len Sassaman will be talking about the Mixmaster email remailer tool - there's been a lot of development work recently on this tool for email anonymizing, including developer mailing list at the SourceForge Open Source Software repository. https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixmaster-devel Dave Del Torto will be presenting current work for the CryptoRights Foundation, including a description of the upcoming meeting in with European developers. San Francisco Foundation at 225 Bush Street (5th Floor) in SF, very close to the Sutter Stockton Garage and BART. It's about a block and a half north of 1st & Market St. From Caltrain, most of the busses go up to 3rd & Market St. and turn either right or left. Map URL: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&addr=225+bush&csz=san+francisco%2C+ca&Country=us&Get%A0Map=Get+Map From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 12:22:10 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:22:10 -0800 Subject: Black Unicorn's talk at Saturday's meeting Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011109122029.03050450@idiom.com> In Part One of "Squeezing the Jello" we covered the basics of the production of Cocaine HCl. We touched on the economic incentives to produce cocaine, down to the level of the peasant farmer. We also introduced some of the major players in the Medellin and Cali Cartels based in Columbia, examined their development into the "godfathers of cocaine" and discussed the challenges they faced in producing a market and distribution network for cocaine in the United States. We examined the evolution of the cocaine market and the increasing challenges to the transportation and logistic segments of international narcotics trafficking starting primarily in the Reagan era. We discovered the first hints of the adaptive nature of cocaine smuggling and the narcotics trafficking empires, now risen in power and influence both in Latin America and in the United States. Finally, we discussed the increasing technological and military involvement in the "war on drugs" and the changes in the cocaine trade, including the fall of the great cartels, that followed those developments. We ended with a description of the status quo of the cocaine trade today. In Part Two, we will review some of the things we learned in Part One. We will examine the cocaine trade again with an emphasis on its economic impacts and changes over the last three decades. We will go over the major players in the trade and their eventual fates. We will transition to the current state of affairs in the cocaine trade and draw some conclusions about the effectiveness of enforcement efforts given the evolved and advanced nature of the international narcotics trade. Finally, we will examine in detail the fates of the large players in the trade, the missteps they may have made and how the trade has evolved. The talk will end with some predications about the direction of the cocaine trade, the prospects for stopping the import of cocaine into the United States and the lessons we might learn about underground economies from the more than three decades of experience the international narcotics smuggling trade has given us. Methods we might use to apply these lessons to cypherpunky projects will be outlined and some related and future projects will be introduced to the group. See you there. From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Nov 9 12:43:17 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:43:17 -0800 Subject: A Simple Plan ( Re: explosives ) Message-ID: <3BEC3FE5.A7A89FDF@lsil.com> "matt ." wrote : > >Science project? omg shut the hell up. For all we know, your probably some >crazed arab going on a suicide spree > By the name perhaps a "Basque Separatist" is more likely. >From: "coretta fontenot" > >How can I make an explosive? its cause that's my science project > It's a fairly simple process really. 1) read about many types 2) choose one 3) get the materials 4) make it 5) turn the material in to your watch commander 6) blame everyone that you found to be of assistance during your project of providing material assistance to terrorists #6 is all too likely to be true because some terrorists wear uniforms and some hold public office. From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Fri Nov 9 11:10:06 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:10:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection Message-ID: <0dc5afb68991b4f16241a6e40d012221@mixmaster.nullify.org> Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Tim May wrote: > > Nomen Nescio and others should read Chaum's "Credentials without > > identity" papers. A true name is just another credential, not > > necessarily more important than any of several other credentials. People > > should think deeply about this issue. > > I would like to read these papers. Are they available on-line? Chaum has a list of papers at www.chaum.com but most are not online. One that is online describes credential systems along with related technologies: "Security Without Identification: Transaction Systems to Make Big Brother Obsolete", http://www.chaum.com/articles/Security_Wthout_Identification.htm In exchange for providing you with these pointers, you are obligated to return the favor. Your assignment, Marc de Piolenc, is to read and understand this paper and to report back to cypherpunks with ideas about how pseudonymous credentials could be used to improve airport security. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Nov 9 10:11:40 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:11:40 -0500 Subject: The Republican Position on USC T 18 Ch 115 Sec 2383ff Message-ID: > From: mmotyka at lsil.com[SMTP:mmotyka at lsil.com] > What a guy! > Abraham Lincoln : > > "Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can > exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their > revolutionary right to dismember or > overthrow it." > > President Abraham Lincoln, "First Inaugural Address" (available at > http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html) > > "Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the > right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new > one that suits them > better. This is a most valuable,---a most sacred right---a right, which > we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right > confined to cases in which the > whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it." > > (Speech in the United States House of Representatives, Jan. 12, 1848) > > > As far as I am concerned, to the extent that a government restricts > speech against it, it betrays its weakness and strengthens the > oppostion. When was the last time we heard one of our current crop of > political weenies speak so clearly or with such faith in the governed? > Not in my lifetime. > Mike ------------ As I said in an earlier post, there is usually a gulf - a huge one, between what institutions say and what they do Consider these actions of Lincoln in the light the above quotes: >From 'Getting Lincoln Right': http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman50.html [...] Also, should those who debate the greatness of Lincoln ignore the fact that he arrested and exiled a US Congressman from Ohio - Clement Valladingham - who was also running for governor of Ohio at the time, over anti-war remarks made during a campaign speech? Valladingham was arrested in his bedroom in the middle of the night. Should one also overlook Lincoln's destruction of the rule of law in "loyal" Maryland? When Maryland voiced its support for the CSA and appeared itself ready to secede, Lincoln arrested 31 Maryland legislators, the mayor of Baltimore (the nation's 3rd largest city at the time), and a US Congressman from Maryland, as well as numerous editors and publishers. Not only did Lincoln imprison two US Congressmen, he also wrote out an arrest warrant for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court, Roger Taney, after Taney wrote the opinion in Ex Parte Merryman (1861) rebuking Lincoln's illegitimate suspension of habeas corpus (see Charles Adams, p 46-53). John Marshall, whose opinion in Marbury v. Madison (1803) famously declared that "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is," also wrote the opinion in Ex Parte Bollman and Swartwout (1807) declaring that suspension of habeas corpus was a power vested only in the Congress. Lincoln simply ignored the law. Additionally, US Army troops refused to release Merryman into the custody of a federal marshal sent by Taney pursuant to the court order that Merryman be freed. Lincoln, then, imprisoned members of the federal legislative branch, and also sought to imprison the chief member of the federal judiciary. What happened to checks and balances? Lincoln, with the backing of the army, simply exercised whatever powers he desired. As noted Lincoln scholar Mark Neely writes in The Last Best Hope of Earth, Lincoln arrested the Marylanders "without much agonizing over their constitutionality" (p 133). [...] From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Fri Nov 9 13:12:59 2001 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:12:59 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109123407.046523c0@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 01:10 AM 11/9/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: >[...] >A few other irrelevant points have been made. Given that ID is not >perfectly reliable, do we need to tattoo numbers on people's forearms? >This is the fallacy of perfection. ID can be combined with a simple >thumbprint for biometric identification (already widely used for cashing >checks) and you will raise the cost of forgery considerably. Bullshit. There's no real-time on-line database of ordinary citizen fingerprints available to match versus ID cards, even if the cards (which don't exist and haven't been issued) were available. Thumbprints taken in banks don't do anything to immediately ID the person cashing a check - they provide evidence about who got the money, if the check turns out to have been fraudulent or stolen .. but to be worth much, the fingerprint needs to be matched to a name (which is only possible if that finger of that person has been fingerprinted and archived before, and they're both good, readable prints), or to a physical body, which might happen after an arrest. They're evidence which is useful in court, but they don't do a thing to tell the bank whether or not the transaction is likely to fail. So, yeah, sure, thumbprints would let us know if the dead suicide bomber's "real name" was really the one he used to rent the truck or buy the plane ticket .. or if he just got started on his project early enough to get his stolen identity matched to his real fingerprint .. but how, exactly, is that going to Save the Children? I agree that it will help law enforcement agents make a nice crisp presentation in Congressional hearings about how they dug up the suicide bomber's Permanent Record all the way back to preschool less than 45 minutes after they turned a daycare center into a slaughterhouse .. but I don't really give a shit about that. The only way you can use fingerprints and ID cards to begin to prevent the killing in the first place looks like this: 1. Reliably fingerprint everyone on the planet and record their "true name", whatever that is, and issue ID cards to them with that data. 2. Cross-reference the data in (1) with existing criminal, intelligence, mental health data, making sure that in the process of doing that you don't screw up people's right to privacy in medical records, reveal existing investigations, or reveal intelligence sources/methods. 3. Distribute cheap and reliable fingerprint readers all over the planet (or maybe all over the US, though it's hard for me to imagine other countries will cooperate with (1) unless they get them too) so that people's fingerprints can be imaged locally. 4. Build a real-time database capable of storing & retrieving the data from (1) and (2) given fuzzy images from (3), and a network capable of providing simultaneous access for millions of clients. 5. Give access to (4) to everyone who needs it, but prevent them from using the data they gather (like fingerprint images and personal data) for ID theft or impersonation. 6. Develop either an algorithm/expert system which decides which people ID'd within the system are allowed to do certain things (like "board a plane", "buy av gas", "rent a truck", etc), or delegate that decision to many thousands of minimum-wage clerks, who will not be susceptible to trickery nor bribes. Can you get that up and running in, say, 60 days? California has been trying for years to get a vastly less ambitious system working even a little bit at the Department of Motor Vehicles - at one point (several years in) they figured out that they had to throw away everything they'd done so far and start all over again. A project like you propose in your casual, offhand manner is probably 100 times more expensive and more complicated that California's .. but that doesn't seem to scare you. The IRS's computer system is in similar disarray - they can't always find records or correlate things, and they've gone ahead and assigned everyone nice easy numbers, and they operate on a timeframe of months and years, not seconds ticking by at a departure gate or a gas station pump. The FBI tried to build a database of disqualified firearm purchasers for use in the "instant check" process and it's proved to have an error rate of between 5 and 10%. If the CA DMV, the IRS, and the FBI can't get these sorts of databases up and running given their already generous budgets (millions and billions) and timeframes measured in years, how can you possibly think that anything like this is even possible - even before reaching the "is it a good idea?" question. > Many of >the hijackers would have been caught simply by cross-referencing their >IDs against existing databases. That's what El Al does and they have an >excellent safety record in the most terrorist-infested part of the world. Hmm. Then it's funny that Mohammed Atta (likely the worst-looking on paper, since he's the guy who was meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague and had outstanding criminal/traffic warrants) was able to clear Customs when he re-entered the country. The "ID card" fairy tale still loses. Further, your "perfection isn't necessary" argument would be reasonable if we weren't talking about trying to solve a terrorist problem - but it's my impression that's the context of this discussion. The interesting thing about terrorism is that its direct effects aren't especially important - it's the secondary effects on people not physically affected by the event which give terrorism its power. Losing 5000 people in one day to an identifiable cause - or the 3 or 4 that we've lost to anthrax - is absolutely nothing, statistically speaking. Red meat and cigarettes probably kill a WTC's worth of people every day in the US alone - and we probably lose an anthrax letter's worth of deaths every day to even more obscure stuff like bee stings or wading pools. Those events are powerful not because of the people killed and property damaged, but because of the fear that the other 230 million people in the US feel (+ more worldwide), because they're faced with the possibility of successful, similar attacks - and that's why a mealy-mouthed "my security system isn't perfect but it'll reduce the marginal success rate and that's still valuable" doesn't even come close to solving the problem, because people are already freaked out about a statistically insignificant risk. Reducing that infinitesimal risk further without eliminating it is a waste of time. (Accordingly, some measures do nothing to reduce the actual risk but make people feel better because of their superstitious beliefs about the power of guns or databases or the application of arbitrary screening and sorting rules. The placebo effect created by these measures isn't unimportant - but let's create it by more traditional and less risky means, like prayer and faith in supreme beings and/or ritual pledges of allegiance or other ceremonies, instead of wasting lots of time and money creating unstable oppression systems ripe for misuse or takeover.) -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 11:44:57 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:44:57 -0600 Subject: America the Beautiful In-Reply-To: <200111091908.fA9J8EP44139@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of keyser-soze at hushmail.com > I suggest if you find expression of such logical sentiment > objectionable that you leave the list. Can't we just object? "I object." Said objection is now a part of the record. From evs12345 at email.ru Fri Nov 9 02:51:24 2001 From: evs12345 at email.ru (EVS) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:51:24 +0300 Subject: - / VISA SERVICES Message-ID: <20011109105247.7BCC7235CE@hueymiccailhuitl.mtu.ru> ОФОРМЛЕНИЕ ЗАГРАНПАСПОРТОВ (Цены указаны для жителей Москвы и Моск. области) 35 раб.дней - $70 21-23 раб.дней - $140 15-17 раб.дней - $180 10-12 раб.дней - $260 По Вашему запросу вышлем комплект необходимых документов для оформления загранпаспорта. ВИЗОВЫЕ УСЛУГИ Оформление приглашений для ИНОСТРАНЦЕВ в Россию. Однократное на 1 месяц - $ 25 Многократное на 1 год- $ 150 *Правовые вопросы относительно пребывания иностранных граждан на территории РФ, проблемные случаи. *Вопросы выезда РОССИЯН за рубеж, оформление надлежащих документов (ВИЗЫ). БЕСПЛАТНЫЙ ВЫЕЗД КУРЬЕРА К ВАМ В ОФИС В ПРЕДЕЛАХ г. МОСКВЫ ТЕЛ./ФАКС: (095) 797-0408 797-0482 107-7858 926-5591 VISA SERVICES Legalization of the Russian visa-invitations for foreign citizens. Single for 1 month-only $25 Multiple for 1 year-only $150 *Solution of legal matters concerning foreign citizens stay on the territory of Russian Federation, questionable issues. *Assistance in visas registration for the foreign citizens in Russia. *Solution of the problems concerning RUSSIAN citizens departure abroad, registration of the proper documents: foreign passports and visas. TEL/FAX: +7(095) 797-0408 797-0482 107-7858 926-5591 From bpayne37 at home.com Fri Nov 9 12:55:14 2001 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:55:14 -0700 Subject: email blitz References: <001b01c1674b$f0dce0e0$61c9b440@bc.hsia.telus.net> <012801c16953$447f9ae0$b5ecb618@sandia1.nm.home.com> <009801c1695d$90205e80$61c9b440@bc.hsia.telus.net> Message-ID: <002301c16960$d5430280$b5ecb618@sandia1.nm.home.com> Anita I'm not sure how I can personally help. I'm a bit into IT with the feds myself. The feds may have pulled all of the files on one of our websites. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ Try doing the blitz email to congress. I think including links http://orlingrabbe.com/ricono.htm http://orlingrabbe.com/binladin_timosman.htm would help identify who michael is and why the feds want to silence him. good luck! bill Alex http://www.geocities.com/piramidauk/main.html and Ahmad http://www.iran-daneshjoo.org/ Here's the link Anita is referencing http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ Hey, what's happening here in the US is about matching what happened in both your countries, as reported by the US News Media of course, at times. >From my standpoint http://orlingrabbe.com/ricono.htm is one of the better commentaries on crypto. Then, of course, there is http://orlingrabbe.com/bw1.htm :) have a good week-end guys. http://members.home.net/bpayne37/tach.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Anila To: bill payne Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:31 PM Subject: Re: email blitz I'm on it. I've made it up to the 'M's, about half require a zip code so I'm bypassing them. Too much to do. I've been advised that inquiries to the Bureau of Prisons, Public Relations Department in Washington, DC could really help move things along. Any help from you and your contacts would be greatly appreciated! Anita ----- Original Message ----- From: bill payne To: Anila Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 11:18 AM Subject: email blitz Blitz congress your messages. You can find email addresses here http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Anila To: anita Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:20 PM Subject: Michael Riconosciuto is in the hole! Michael Riconosciuto was pulled from his cell at 5AM this morning (Nov 6/01). He was not able to grab his records. He has been moved from Allenwood to a place he did not want to go. He is in the hole at Springfield, MO. Michael was revealing details of terrorist networks, now communications are severed and he has been taken to a place which is very dangerous for him. Michael J. Riconosciuto 21309-086 Box 4000 U.S. Medical Center Springfield, MO 65801-4000 He is in the hole because he would be attacked by other prisoners if he were in the regular facilities. They will need to move the main-threat person into the hole in order to get him time out of the hole - this won't do him a lot of good because other prisoners are also threats, and he could be beaten & killed. Michael was presented to the people at Springfield as someone who is mentally ill. Fortunately, he got someone to call Allenwood to verify the cancer problem. His new BOP councilors are Mr. Dunn and Mrs. Cunningham. CAPT Newton E. Kendig II., M.D., Medical Director and Phillip S. Wise, Assistant Director are two men who can make a real difference. Please call them and let them know how important it is that Michael be given every opportunity to survive this ordeal. The Federal Bureau of Prisons Central Office is located at 320 First St., NW., Washington, D.C. 20534. Office hours are 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Eastern time, Monday through Friday. Phone 202-307-3055. Fax 202-307-0826. Another potential source for assistance would be Congressman Petersen's office. Phone: 814-827-3985. Calls to local representatives would also help. I have spoken with Michael on the phone as recently as Sunday. He told me he has all the information needed to totally expose the terrorist networks. We needed time to unravel them. Now communications with him are cut off. How long he can live in the hole when he is already ill, I don't know, but it is no way to treat a sick man, and no way to treat a person who is attempting to stop a disaster. Sincerely, Anita Langley www.mindgallery.com/hiddenroom/wizard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at paranoici.org Fri Nov 9 04:57:23 2001 From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:57:23 +0100 Subject: more on Nancy Oden Message-ID: british males call eachother cunts all the time. i'm not sure if this is related. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandy Sandfort" To: "Reese" ; Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 5:51 PM Subject: RE: more on Nancy Oden > That's nonsense. Please explain the informational content of the > word "cunt" as you used it. By the way, there is no validity in > trying to hand the "PC" sign on me for two reasons: a) I'm about > as far as you can get from being PC, and b) your use PC accusation > makes sense ONLY if your use of the word "cunt" was meant as a > general reference to women. You cannot have it both ways. From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 9 12:08:31 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:08:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: America the Beautiful In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: Welcome back Gordon. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ericm at lne.com Fri Nov 9 14:31:54 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:31:54 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109123407.046523c0@bivens.parrhesia.com>; from gbroiles@parrhesia.com on Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 01:12:59PM -0800 References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109123407.046523c0@bivens.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <20011109143154.A10292@slack.lne.com> On Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 01:12:59PM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: [a lot of well-written stuff on ID cards etc. deleted. If you didn't read it, go back and dig it up] > (Accordingly, some measures do nothing to reduce the actual risk but make > people feel better because of their superstitious beliefs about the power > of guns or databases or the application of arbitrary screening and sorting > rules. The placebo effect created by these measures isn't unimportant - but > let's create it by more traditional and less risky means, like prayer and > faith in supreme beings and/or ritual pledges of allegiance or other > ceremonies, instead of wasting lots of time and money creating unstable > oppression systems ripe for misuse or takeover.) ID cards are another feel-good measure, nothing more. As you correctly point out, they won't add any real security against terrorism unless taken to very impractical lengths. But the people think they will help, just like the poorly-trained national guard troops in airports. Worse, the people have been sold the ideas that increased security means giving up freedoms and therefore anything that reduces freedom must be increasing security. Eric From ashwood at msn.com Fri Nov 9 12:46:56 2001 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:46:56 -0600 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109123407.046523c0@bivens.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <015a01c16960$1c721520$bdc0b6c7@josephas> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Broiles" To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 3:12 PM Subject: CDR: Re: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection > At 01:10 AM 11/9/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: > >[...] > >A few other irrelevant points have been made. Given that ID is not > >perfectly reliable, do we need to tattoo numbers on people's forearms? > >This is the fallacy of perfection. ID can be combined with a simple > >thumbprint for biometric identification (already widely used for cashing > >checks) and you will raise the cost of forgery considerably. > > Bullshit. There's no real-time on-line database of ordinary citizen > fingerprints available to match versus ID cards, even if the cards (which > don't exist and haven't been issued) were available. Then let's make proper use of technology. We want to make sure the ID card is issued by the correct authority, that's almost exactly what digital signatures were designed for. Just create some uniform way of computing the data from the card (easiest would be to just use a plain old-fashioned smartcard), and check the signature against a publicly known public key. It's really quite simple. > So, yeah, sure, thumbprints would let us know if the dead suicide bomber's > "real name" was really the one he used to rent the truck or buy the plane > ticket .. or if he just got started on his project early enough to get his > stolen identity matched to his real fingerprint .. but how, exactly, is > that going to Save the Children? That is the far bigger problem. Identifying these people simply won't make any difference. If a person is intent on being a suicide bomber, they will blow other people up with them, no matter how well we can make an identification. > Can you get that up and running in, say, 60 days? Couldn't get the thumbprint idea going that quick, but smartcards and smartcard readers are already in mass production making my idea not easy, but possible to get underway in 60 days. Completion though would be a matter of approximately a decade. > California has been trying for years to get a vastly less ambitious system > working even a little bit at the Department of Motor Vehicles - at one > point (several years in) they figured out that they had to throw away > everything they'd done so far and start all over again. A project like you > propose in your casual, offhand manner is probably 100 times more expensive > and more complicated that California's .. but that doesn't seem to scare > you. The IRS's computer system is in similar disarray - they can't always > find records or correlate things, and they've gone ahead and assigned > everyone nice easy numbers, and they operate on a timeframe of months and > years, not seconds ticking by at a departure gate or a gas station pump. > The FBI tried to build a database of disqualified firearm purchasers for > use in the "instant check" process and it's proved to have an error rate of > between 5 and 10%. Very good examples of how not to go about it. My idea (while far from perfect or fully developed) lacks the same bottleneck points, the only information that needs to be accessed millions of times remains static across years, with a retrieval rate like that it would be more than possible to simply broadcast the key over a public broadcasting station along side the current time, since nobody is watching anyway you could easily take over the closed captioning for a few seconds to send out the key. I'm clearly not addressing certification of the key as correct but having the president read back a hash of it at the state of the union address (couldn't be any more boring than the rest) would certainly provide some evidence. > If the CA DMV, the IRS, and the FBI can't get these sorts of databases up > and running given their already generous budgets (millions and billions) > and timeframes measured in years, how can you possibly think that anything > like this is even possible - even before reaching the "is it a good idea?" > question. Agreed. > > Many of > >the hijackers would have been caught simply by cross-referencing their > >IDs against existing databases. That's what El Al does and they have an > >excellent safety record in the most terrorist-infested part of the world. > > Hmm. Then it's funny that Mohammed Atta (likely the worst-looking on paper, > since he's the guy who was meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent in > Prague and had outstanding criminal/traffic warrants) was able to clear > Customs when he re-entered the country. > > The "ID card" fairy tale still loses. I agree, no matter what method is chosen, the possibilities for abuse are excessive (some of these people can't even be trusted not to use a phone book improperly, give then some real power and who knows what will happen), and the value of the target is too great. Let's pretend that my idea is used. Let's say each card costs $10 to issue. How much is impersonation worth? Well for something of the impact of Sept 11 it could easily be estimated at billions of dollars. That will buy a massive amount of computer power, a large quantity of the world's best mathematicians, and a significant amount of time. I don't like the odds of DSA against that, it's too close to the wire right now, supplying a target of this size could be devastating. That leaves RSA varients, but for billions of dollars and a significant amount of time 2^80 work (SHA1) isn't that much, some less fully examined algorithm would have to be used, that presents it's own problems. Basically the target is simply too big for current standards, once SHA-512 is fully examined there may be a chance, but until then I just don't think the card everyone idea is cryptographicly feasible. The non-cryptographic methods would pose additional problems because anything that can be phyisically made by one person can be physically made by another. > Further, your "perfection isn't necessary" argument would be reasonable if > we weren't talking about trying to solve a terrorist problem - but it's my > impression that's the context of this discussion. The interesting thing > about terrorism is that its direct effects aren't especially important - > it's the secondary effects on people not physically affected by the event > which give terrorism its power. Losing 5000 people in one day to an > identifiable cause - or the 3 or 4 that we've lost to anthrax - is > absolutely nothing, statistically speaking. Red meat and cigarettes > probably kill a WTC's worth of people every day in the US alone - and we > probably lose an anthrax letter's worth of deaths every day to even more > obscure stuff like bee stings or wading pools. That's true, we certainly lose more people to far more mundane things every day than the WTC tragedy caused. But at the same time you have to realize that most people don't think about bee stings as a cause of death, they don't even think about bed they sleep in as a cause of death (look up the statistics it's hilarious), and both of those cause vastly more deaths each year as terrorism on average. The problem is that the media has hyped this up, the president's handlers have told him that this is a big deal, as a result of this the general populus wants blood. Thinking people know taht we will never eliminate terrorism, well I guess on a technicality we could, but it would require extermination of all but 1 human. >The placebo effect created by these measures [is important] I think that line says it all. Joe From mattd at useoz.com Thu Nov 8 20:44:42 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 15:44:42 +1100 Subject: americas insanity Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011109153609.00a33100@pop.useoz.com> 6 months ago I typed some words on an online form that led to a grand jury being set up and a subpoena being issued on the other side of the world.Only in america.Now I hear they are getting strict.ROTFL. Hows my jeff gordon prize pool going? From piolenc at mozcom.com Fri Nov 9 01:11:58 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 17:11:58 +0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection References: <7495D402-D4BF-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BEB9DDE.9ABA0FB3@mozcom.com> Tim May wrote: > > I would like to read these papers. Are they available on-line? > > > > If they are, search engines will very likely have indexed them. > > I would do the search for you, but your retainer has expired. Just thought you might know offhand. Search engines it is... Marc de Piolenc From america at proudandfree.com Fri Nov 9 16:24:03 2001 From: america at proudandfree.com (Sharlene) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 17:24:03 -0700 Subject: A PERMISSION REQUEST PLEASE? Message-ID: <280732001116100243950@w98sysrec> Hello, This is a one time mailing with information that you DO NOT want to MISS OUT on!!! If I have reached you by mistake please accept my apology and follow the simple REMOVE instructions at the end of this message. Thank You. EVERYONE HAS A DREAM! 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Message-ID: <537920011161002412410@w98sysrec> Hello, This is a one time mailing with information that you DO NOT want to MISS OUT on!!! If I have reached you by mistake please accept my apology and follow the simple REMOVE instructions at the end of this message. Thank You. EVERYONE HAS A DREAM! What I have to share with you COULD VERY WELL make YOUR dreams come true! May I have your permission to share with you a simple concept of giving and receiving that has brought me $500 dollars in CASH in a matter of DAYS and the only requirement to receive this amount of cash are to gift out $125 and bring in 2 people? The very next person to come on board gifts YOU $125 and that is 4 times over!!! An activity that CAN help you get through the upcoming holidays financially without having to charge up your high interest credit cards or maybe just help someone get back on their feet FINANCIALLY! WHAT A WONDERFUL GIFT THAT WOULD BE YES? A STOCKING FULL OF CASH!!!!!!!!! An ACTIVITY that may set YOU FREE FINANCIALLY! NO PRODUCTS TO SELL!! NO LARGE DOWNLINES TO BUILD!!! I work with a group of professional Givers and Receivers. What we are searching for is people with a desire to help others and who are able to work with us as a "TEAM" and introduce new people into our PRIVATE ACTIVITIES so they too may see the benefits of gifting. Everyone Has A Dream.... What's Your Dream? If you think this may be something of interest to you, please email me at....... america at proudandfree.com and learn how we not only help others financially, but help ourselves in return. VERY Rewarding! Please type "DREAMS" in the subject line. I will personally respond immediately. No autoresponder! Thank you for your time Wishing you success! Sharlene ************************************************************* To remove your name from this list, please simply send a blank email with "REMOVE" in the subject line to: america at proudandfree.com From ingo.wies at aral.net Fri Nov 9 09:28:11 2001 From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net) Date: 09 Nov 2001 17:28:11 UT Subject: Newsletter 2001-11-09 Message-ID: <0000E91F.3BEC202C@smtp.aral.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. For removal instructions see bottom of this newsletter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-: Siemens C45 orignal 200 pcs DEM 300 Siemens S45 400 pcs DEM 521 Siemens S40 600 pcs DEM 440 Nokia 8210 euro spec,blue 300 pcs DEM 405 Nokia 3310 original 600 pcs DEM 250 Nokia 3330 original 500 pcs DEM 270 Nokia 8310 eurospec 500 pcs DEM 705 Ericsson T29 original 500 pcs DEM 305 Sony Z7 original 500 pcs DEM 541 Sony Z5 original 1000 pcs DEM 490 Sony J70 original 400 pcs DEM 285 Sony DX1000 original new 350 pcs DEM 73 Motorola P7389 150 pcs DEM 185 Samsung A300 1000 pcs DEM 522 Motorola T191 silver 1000 pcs DEM 271 Motorola V3690 tit light 1000 pcs DEM 375 Motorola V66 200 pcs DEM 709 Ericsson R320 500 pcs DEM 129 Motorola T65 200 pcs DEM 495 Alcatel 511 100 pcs DEM 309 PSION Oganizers: Psion Revo Plus 16MB english version 3000 pcs DEM 530 min order 1000 pcs Also 966 pcs ORIGINAL english Nokia 6210 manuals for DEM 2!!!!!!!! Siemens SL45 car kit comfort 100 pcs DEM 161 Siemens SL45 voice car kit 50 pcs DEM 289 Siemens S35 car kit comfort 250 pcs DEM 161 FUJI Digital Cameras: FUJI Fine Pix 1300 200 pcs DEM 410 FUJI Fine Pix 2300 200 pcs DEM 551 Fuji Fine Pix 2400z 200 pcs DEM 820 Fuji Fine Pix 40i blue or silver 500 pcs DEM 998 Fuji Fine Pix 4700z 100 pcs DEM 1383 Fuji Fine Pix 6800z 100 pcs DEM 1334 Fuji Fine Pix S1 pro 50 pcs DEM 5767 We also can offer the following Siemens Gigaset DECT phones: Siemens Homestation 200 pcs DEM 169 Siemens Gigaset 3010 micro 1000 pcs DEM 225 THE NEW SIEMENS GIGASET 4000 SERIES IS NOW AVAILABLE!!!!!!!! Please ask for prices. FOB Düsseldorf/Germany, subject is to prior sales. Best regards Ingo Wies Aral Mobilfunk Partner KMT GmbH Tel +49 2102 87 47 254 Fax +49 2102 87 47 269 =============================================================== If you have received this message in error, or wish not to be included on future mailings please forward your e-mail address of which we have sent this message to. If you receive this message through another e-mail address we have no way of removing you from our list unless you provide the original e-mail address contained in the full header of the e-mail message. If this information has been removed by your server(s) we cannot control this and, again, have no way to remove your e-mail address. Simply reply to this message with "REMOVE" in the subject line. We wish to fully comply with your wishes and all applicable state and federal laws. Your cooperation and patience in this matter are very much appreciated. Thank You! =============================================================== From ingo.wies at aral.net Fri Nov 9 09:28:16 2001 From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net) Date: 09 Nov 2001 17:28:16 UT Subject: Newsletter 2001-11-09 Message-ID: <0000E91F.3BEC203E@smtp.aral.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. For removal instructions see bottom of this newsletter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-: Siemens C45 orignal 200 pcs DEM 300 Siemens S45 400 pcs DEM 521 Siemens S40 600 pcs DEM 440 Nokia 8210 euro spec,blue 300 pcs DEM 405 Nokia 3310 original 600 pcs DEM 250 Nokia 3330 original 500 pcs DEM 270 Nokia 8310 eurospec 500 pcs DEM 705 Ericsson T29 original 500 pcs DEM 305 Sony Z7 original 500 pcs DEM 541 Sony Z5 original 1000 pcs DEM 490 Sony J70 original 400 pcs DEM 285 Sony DX1000 original new 350 pcs DEM 73 Motorola P7389 150 pcs DEM 185 Samsung A300 1000 pcs DEM 522 Motorola T191 silver 1000 pcs DEM 271 Motorola V3690 tit light 1000 pcs DEM 375 Motorola V66 200 pcs DEM 709 Ericsson R320 500 pcs DEM 129 Motorola T65 200 pcs DEM 495 Alcatel 511 100 pcs DEM 309 PSION Oganizers: Psion Revo Plus 16MB english version 3000 pcs DEM 530 min order 1000 pcs Also 966 pcs ORIGINAL english Nokia 6210 manuals for DEM 2!!!!!!!! Siemens SL45 car kit comfort 100 pcs DEM 161 Siemens SL45 voice car kit 50 pcs DEM 289 Siemens S35 car kit comfort 250 pcs DEM 161 FUJI Digital Cameras: FUJI Fine Pix 1300 200 pcs DEM 410 FUJI Fine Pix 2300 200 pcs DEM 551 Fuji Fine Pix 2400z 200 pcs DEM 820 Fuji Fine Pix 40i blue or silver 500 pcs DEM 998 Fuji Fine Pix 4700z 100 pcs DEM 1383 Fuji Fine Pix 6800z 100 pcs DEM 1334 Fuji Fine Pix S1 pro 50 pcs DEM 5767 We also can offer the following Siemens Gigaset DECT phones: Siemens Homestation 200 pcs DEM 169 Siemens Gigaset 3010 micro 1000 pcs DEM 225 THE NEW SIEMENS GIGASET 4000 SERIES IS NOW AVAILABLE!!!!!!!! Please ask for prices. FOB Düsseldorf/Germany, subject is to prior sales. Best regards Ingo Wies Aral Mobilfunk Partner KMT GmbH Tel +49 2102 87 47 254 Fax +49 2102 87 47 269 =============================================================== If you have received this message in error, or wish not to be included on future mailings please forward your e-mail address of which we have sent this message to. If you receive this message through another e-mail address we have no way of removing you from our list unless you provide the original e-mail address contained in the full header of the e-mail message. If this information has been removed by your server(s) we cannot control this and, again, have no way to remove your e-mail address. Simply reply to this message with "REMOVE" in the subject line. We wish to fully comply with your wishes and all applicable state and federal laws. Your cooperation and patience in this matter are very much appreciated. Thank You! =============================================================== From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Fri Nov 9 17:34:01 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 17:34:01 PST Subject: Looking Toward Next Week! Message-ID: <200111100143.BAA29827@s0289.pm0.net> +>+>+> SOMEONE IN YOUR OFFICE IS MAKING YOU LOOK BAD! Xerox has a chilling opportunity for you. Enter to Win a 2002 Olympic Winter Games Trip or Phaser 860 Network Color Printer http://by.advertising.com/1/c/36660/34034/110232/110232 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT - NOVEMBER 10, 2001 Next Holiday - Thanksgiving: Turkey, Football and Relatives! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Hello All Investors, On Sunday night we will be sending out a new stock profile. Our last few profiles have performed with increased volume and nice gains!!! We look for this new stock to have an explosive next week. Keep your eyes open and Have a Great Weekend!!! +>+>+> AND COMMING UP... Next week will be moderately busy in terms of economic reports. On Wednesday we’ll get the October Retail Sales report, which is most likely to show growth over the month of September thanks to record-setting auto sales as well as to discount shopping. Also a number of readings on the manufacturing industry will be issued including the Philadelphia Fed survey, Business Inventories and Industrial Production. Those reports for the most part are not expected to reveal anything encouraging. Finally, the Consumer Price Index (CPI) is due out next Friday, and like today’s PPI numbers it is expected to indicate that inflation remains under control. Although the corporate earnings season was over in October, a bulk of key tech companies will report their results next week. Among them are Dell Computer, Hewlett Packard & Applied Materials. Besides earnings and economic reports, developments on the Afghanistan front will undoubtedly remain on everyone’s radar screen and any further military progress over the weekend could be an important catalyst for this market. +>+>+> TO VIEW OUR TWO DAILY STOCK PICKS BY HARRY AND BRUCE - Please go to our website http://www.wallstreetuniverse.com PEACE - Steven Schwartz and Staff mailto:support at wallstreetuniverse.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.t25.37kh From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 9 16:06:49 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 18:06:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Nov-L: DOJ field guidance for new terrorism law (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:40:41 -0800 From: Nora Callahan To: november-l at november.org Subject: Nov-L: DOJ field guidance for new terrorism law Friends: In reaction to the events of 9/11 sweeping new powers were given to law enforcement authorities. Below is a link to a pdf document the Department of Justice has prepared for field guidance on use of the new law. It provides a useful analysis of significantly expanded law enforcement authority. http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/DOJ_guidance.pdf Kevin Commons Sense for Drug Policy -- The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit organization, your gifts are tax deductible. You can send your donation to: The November Coalition 795 South Cedar Colville, WA 99114 -------- November-L is a voluntary mailing list of the November Coalition. To unsubscribe, visit http://www.november.org/lists/ or send a message to november-L-request at november.org containing the command "unsubscribe" From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 9 16:26:29 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 18:26:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ISN] Cyber-security czar snubs ID plan, defends Govnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Clarke said it is not clear that the country needs to have a mandatory > identity card, but suggested there might be a use for credit > card-sized smart cards that contain data and microchips. Such cards > could be used for specific actions such as boarding airplanes and > crossing U.S. borders, he said. Ahhh yes, the Internal Passport. I was wondering what took them so long to get around to this. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com Fri Nov 9 18:37:04 2001 From: bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocks) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 18:37:04 -0800 Subject: 'GTXE' - Gulftex Ready to Assist in Meeting US Oil Demands Message-ID: [Stockupticks.com] [Image] [Image] Welcome to Stockupticks.com Newsletter Issue #14 - November 09, 2001 [Image] [Image][Image] [Image] e-Blast [Image] *** Investment Alert Investment [Image] Alert *** StockUpTicks endeavors to bring you information about under-followed companies that may be of particular interest to investors in "discovery" emerging growth stocks. This Investment Alert highlights Gulftex Energy Corporation (OTC BB: GTXE). BUY AMERICAN ? Gulftex Is Positioned In The Market RIGHT NOW To Meet The Demands Of U.S. Energy Independence [Image] In the light of the U.S. reliance on foreign oil in this troubled world, domestic oil refineries are constantly strengthening their reserves in accord with the energy policy of President Bush As one analyst said, "No more being held as a hostage for oil." [Image] Gulftex Energy Corporation develops and manages oil and gas fields in New Mexico, Texas, the U.S. Gulf Coast and the Gulf of Mexico President Bush on being less dependent on foreign oil click here Department of Energy click here Story on oil dependence study by International Energy Agency click here [Image] *** Breaking News *** [Image] The Following News Was Released 3 hours AFTER THE MARKETS CLOSED TODAY. This means, for once, you won't be the last to know ! Friday November 9, 7:33 pm Eastern Time SOURCE: Gulftex Energy Corporation Global Oil Supply Uncertainty Raises Interest in American Oil Producers; Gulftex Oil Ready to Assist in Meeting Demand HOUSTON, Nov. 9 /PRNewswire/ -- Tensions in the oil rich Middle East have renewed interest in American oil reserves and domestic producers such as Gulftex Energy Corporation (OTC Bulletin Board: GTXE - news). In an ABC News report October 22, 2001, the network quoted Merrill Lynch analyst Steven Pfiefer as stating, ``It is quite feasible that we could see prices rise if conditions overseas escalate in some form,'' adding that Pfeifer and several other analysts are predicting higher oil prices similar to what the U.S. experienced during the 1970s when restrained production from OPEC and military and political volatility in the Middle East led to skyrocketing oil prices and fuel costs. Heightening fears of a diminished oil supply are U.S. Government suggestions that the ``War on Terrorism'' could extend to other nations beyond Afghanistan, some of which may be OPEC nations or allies of OPEC countries. The effect of such action could ``abruptly change'' the output from OPEC according to the ABC report. OPEC meets again in Vienna on November 14, 2001. Moreover, ABC states that U.S. ally Saudi Arabia produces more than double the oil production of the rest of the world combined and as a potential target of exiled Saudi Osama Bin Laden, a ``nightmare scenario'' would be a successful attack on that oil supply or its distributing ports. Amid these fears, interest has risen in domestic oil suppliers such as Gulftex Energy Corporation, a Houston based integrated petroleum company involved in exploration and production, transportation, refining, and retail marketing. The company develops and manages oil and gas fields, focusing on the Permian Basin in New Mexico and Texas, onshore United States Gulf Coast, and the Gulf of Mexico, offshore in Indonesia, Nigeria and Qatar. The Company is also involved in pipeline transportation, oil & refined products trading, and shipping. The ABC report also states that an alternative to Middle Eastern oil dependence is to develop existing oil resources within the United States. The U.S. Energy Department is expected to unveil a report soon outlining the benefits of developing and expanding domestic oil reserves, including bumping up the strategic reserve, again, according to the report. Earlier this year amid threats of rolling blackouts, President Bush and U.S. Dept. of Energy's Spencer Abraham repeatedly called for increased domestic drilling. ``We're looking forward to an increase in incentives for domestic oil exploration and production,'' said Marc Duchesne, president of Gulftex Energy Corporation. ``We will be making some dramatic announcements in the very near future regarding the acquisition of large oil and gas properties in the United States. Stay tuned.'' Gulftex Energy Corporation is an integrated petroleum company involved in exploration and production, transportation, refining, and retail marketing. The Company develops and manages oil and gas fields, focusing on New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Kentucky plus onshore United States Gulf Coast and the Gulf of Mexico, including offshore. The Company is also involved in pipeline transportation, oil & refined products trading & shipping. IMPORTANT NOTICE: Certain matters discussed within this press release are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Although Gulftex believes the expectations reflected in such forward-looking statements are based on reasonable assumptions, it can give no assurance that its expectations will be attained. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from expectations include financial performance, oil and gas prices, drilling program results, drilling results, regulatory changes, changes in local or national economic conditions and other risks detailed from time to time in the Company's reports filed with the SEC, including quarterly reports on Form 10-Q, reports on Form 8-K and annual reports on Form 10-K. www.gulftexenergy.com SOURCE: Gulftex Energy Corporation VITAL STATISTICS Exchange: OTC BB: (GTXE) 52 Week Low - High: $.79 - $4.25 Volume (Avg. Daily) 10,000 Recent Close $0.79 Float 735,000 Shares Outstanding: 27,459,000 Market Cap: $21,692,610 Corporate Web site click here Click here for GTXE quotes & news [Image]2001 (4 mos) Income Statement Data ( [Image] ,000) Operating revenues $9,120 Operating income $2,454 Net income $677 Total current assets $14,179 Property and equipment, net $25,261 Total assets $48,368 Total liabilities $26,614 Shareholders' equity $21,755 Operating income return on average PP&E 10.0% [Image]Company Overview [Image] Gulftex Energy Corporation is an integrated petroleum company involved in exploration and production, transportation, refining, and retail marketing. The Company develops and manages oil and gas fields, focusing on the Permian Basin in New Mexico and Texas, onshore United States Gulf Coast, and the Gulf of Mexico. The Company is also involved in pipeline transportation, oil & refined products trading, shipping and futures. [Image]In Business, It's Position, Position, [Image] Position Gulftex Energy Corporation is optimally positioned in the global energy markets. Our customers, partners and shareholders benefit from a full range of products and services based on world-class research and investment expertise. Our size, and the breath of skills we can mobilize through our divisions, allows us to optimize commercial activities with the truly individual solutions they demand. Each project has specific needs and to address them we have created dedicated teams. The group allows us to uniquely leverage both financial and technical know-how to the benefit of our shareholders, employees, partners and communities alike, combined with our unique cost structure allows us to develop properties faster and far cheaper than any competitor. [Image]Company Mission [Image] Initially, to position ourselves to be accepted and listed onto the NYSE within 12 months. This coincides with our vision is to be "highly regarded and respected from our peers," which means: Employees are proud of their success as a team; customers, suppliers and governments prefer us, competitors respect us, communities welcome us and investors are eager to invest in us. Our steadfast pursuit of winning is embodied in our primary objective -- to exceed the performance of our strongest competitors by achieving better stockholder returns for the period 2001 through 2006. To achieve this goal, we will grow earnings faster then our competitor's while maintaining a competitive return on capital employed.We are proud to be a Texas Energy Corporation providing energy products vital to the growth of the world's economies. Our mission is to create superior value to our stockholders, our customers and our employees. [Image]Contact [Image] Headquarters: Gulftex Energy Corporation Four Oaks Place 1330 Post Oak Blvd. Suite 1600 Houston, TX 77056 Phone: 1.713.513.7125 Investor Relations: Paul Lemmon email: plemmon at gulftexenergy.com Office: 1.506 455 7972 ----------------------------------------------------- Safe Harbor Statement: Statements contained in this document, including those pertaining to estimates and related plans other than statements of historical fact, are forward-looking statements subject to a number of uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from statements made. Disclaimer: StockUpTicks.com is a property of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (MP). The information, opinions and analysis contained herein are based on sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. MP is being paid 40,000 shares of GTXE by Gulftex Energy Inc. for distribution of this report and ongoing advertising services. The compensation received by MP for producing this newsletter constitutes a conflict of interest as to MP’s ability to remain objective in its communication regarding the subject company. Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. MP is not an investment advisor and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. Information contained herein contains forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which will affect the results. The opinions contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to change without notice. MP and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated. Safe Harbor Statement: This profile is neither an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any securities mentioned. While the publisher believes all sources of information to be factual and reliable, in no way does it represent or guarantee the accuracy thereof, nor the statements made herein and has no independent verification of the facts, assumptions and estimates contained in this newsletter. "Safe Harbor'' Statement under the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995: Certain statements contained are "forward- looking statements'' within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, including without limitation, the Company's industry position, financial condition and structure. Such forward-looking statements are subject to risks, uncertainties and other factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from future results expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements. Investors are cautioned that any forward-looking statements are not guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties and that actual results may differ materially from those contemplated by such forward-looking statements. Such risks include, without limitation, risks associated with the Company not being able to successfully implement its new strategies, the risk that new acquisitions, if any, will not be successfully integrated into the Company, the seasonality of the Company's sales, the Company's competition, the Company's dependence on supplier relationships and risks related to the Company's borrowings. ---------------------------------------- For More Information or to be featured in our publication reaching over 1,000,000 investors contact us at info at stockupticks.com [Image][Image] [Image] [Image] © Stockupticks 2001, All rights reserved [Image] --- You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 23545 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Rene.Aube at agr.gouv.qc.ca Fri Nov 9 16:09:32 2001 From: Rene.Aube at agr.gouv.qc.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Aub=E9_Ren=E9?=) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 19:09:32 -0500 Subject: VERY URGENT ..... Message-ID: <6955042E76FBD31190EC00508B6C665A04017461@QUBC1-NTCOUP2.mapaq.gouv.qc.ca> What does that means ? Thank you ! René . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 694 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stevet at sendon.net Fri Nov 9 11:20:50 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 19:20:50 +0000 Subject: US psyops uses Napster to steal music for broadcast References: <3BEC16FC.EE964815@hq.org> Message-ID: <200111091952.TAA23755@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Alfred Qaeda (alqaeda at hq.org): > "He [Sgt in 4th psyops group] has downloaded hundreds more tunes from > Internet sites that specialize in Afghan music." Was he downloading from Napster while he was on duty, or when he was off-duty? > ---- > No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as > citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. > This is one nation under God. -GW Bush Hey, George! You don't run the only nation in the universe, you know. I got _my_ sights set on this quiet bit of space in a remote galactic cluster. Tell your minions to keep their dirty little probes outta my space. Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From drevil at sidereal.kz Fri Nov 9 12:41:48 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 9 Nov 2001 20:41:48 -0000 Subject: A Simple Plan ( Re: explosives ) In-Reply-To: <3BEC3FE5.A7A89FDF@lsil.com> (mmotyka@lsil.com) References: <3BEC3FE5.A7A89FDF@lsil.com> Message-ID: <20011109204148.32601.qmail@sidereal.kz> > >From: "coretta fontenot" > >How can I make an explosive? its cause that's my science project > > > It's a fairly simple process really. I have an even simpler process: 1. Go to the supermarket. You will need the following it: Five large cans of refried beans, a piece of cheesecloth, and a cigarette lighter or some long matches. 2. Eat the beans. All of them.