From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Thu Nov 1 02:15:41 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 00:15:41 -1000 Subject: Transparency Spray? [was Transperancy Spray? ] In-Reply-To: <3BE11EA5.E633D0BB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030162551.02e4f8c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BDEDAC2.9950.113E5947@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031184410.02cde940@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101001430.02d24c40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 10:06 AM 11/1/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote: >Reese asked: > >> How dry will the air be at the burning cherry on a cigarette? > >Quite wet, because the combustion adds water vapour to the air. It won't >be much good at physically wetting things, because the air is warm, but >the water vapour is there and being hot will be chemically quite active. >Hold a piece of cool glassware near a bunsen burner or candle flame and >you will see lots of condensation. No, not *that* near... No, put it back in context: >>Here's a link to the MSDS >>http://www.ansul.com/Material_Safety_Data_Sheets/F-85312.pdf >>it says above 900 F Freon will decompose into hydrochloric and >>hydrofluoric acids. Doesn't mention phosgene, > >Try this one: > >http://www.vngas.com/pdf/g143.pdf > >> although you'd >>proabably get that if the air was dry enough. > >How dry will the air be at the burning cherry on a cigarette? How dry will the air be, at that point where the cherry is 900 F or so? Reese From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 1 00:55:35 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 00:55:35 -0800 Subject: Osama bin Laden as SF fan In-Reply-To: References: <3BE03A7F.D321BB05@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011101005406.03250200@idiom.com> At 02:21 PM 10/31/2001 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote: >*********** > >http://www.jerrykindall.com/2001/october.asp > >Apparently, "al-Qaeda" means "the base." Which will almost certainly >lead to an obnoxious rash of "al your Qaeda are belong to U.S." sightings. All your Berts are belong to us? >The name came into use when Osama used his cash to bankroll a series of >bases in Pakistan to assist fighters on their way Afghanistan to fight the >Commies. He used the opportunity to collect a rather valuable direct >marketing list of somme 40,000 names and addresses of dedicated Musselman >Warriors for future use. Wonder what dbase software he uses? PROMIS from Inslaw? From measl at mfn.org Thu Nov 1 04:18:07 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 06:18:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fw: New Scientist: Microwave Crowd Dispersal Tested (ADT) In-Reply-To: <804761CB-CE98-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote: > On Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 07:12 PM, cpaul wrote: > > > aluminum foil? > > > > > > * * * > > > > More inane pseudo-questions. > > The list has degenerated to a new low. > > Into the cornfield you go. Yes, but - Has he Earned Killing (tm) ??? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mybenefits2 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 06:18:31 2001 From: mybenefits2 at yahoo.com (Glenda Wagenman) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 6:18:31 PM -0000 Subject: health care, plus financial benefits ! Message-ID: <200111012321.PAA13913@ecotone.toad.com> Do you have all the health benefits that you need? Are you looking for greater financial independance? Would you like to develop a lifetime residual income that is both willable and sellable? Does anyone you know need to save more money on dental care, chiropractic, vision care, or monthly prescriptions? Visit our website to find out how you can enjoy TREMENDOUS SAVINGS on all of these services. You�ll be glad you did! http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/gwagenman You may also call (800) 647-8421 for additional information. 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A few features of our program: *Leads are exclusive---sold ONLY to you! *Leads contain 30 pieces of information regarding each borrower! *Leads delivered within 24-48 hours from borrower's original request! *Leads are sent daily--depending on your needs! *And best of all....pricing to meet your marketing budget! Dont forget to ask about our volume discount! TO ORDER YOUR LEADS, CALL (888) 725-9246! ********************************************************************************************************* Since you have received this message you have either responded to one of our offers in the past or your address has been registered with us. If you wish to be removed please reply mailto:leadm56 at yahoo.com?subject=remove ********************************************************************************************************* From user67 at excite.com Thu Nov 1 06:10:32 2001 From: user67 at excite.com (user67 at excite.com) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:10:32 -0700 Subject: Need Mortgage Leads? Message-ID: <8uuwps3jiy6m3.4xm17diobywq0@slip-12-64-196-198.mis.prserv.net> Are you a Mortgage Office in need of leads? We receive refinance requests direct from borrowers throughout the United States daily! Whether your office services one state or multiple states, our leads will meet your needs! A few features of our program: *Leads are exclusive---sold ONLY to you! *Leads contain 30 pieces of information regarding each borrower! *Leads delivered within 24-48 hours from borrower's original request! *Leads are sent daily--depending on your needs! *And best of all....pricing to meet your marketing budget! Dont forget to ask about our volume discount! TO ORDER YOUR LEADS, CALL (888) 725-9246! ********************************************************************************************************* Since you have received this message you have either responded to one of our offers in the past or your address has been registered with us. If you wish to be removed please reply mailto:leadm56 at yahoo.com?subject=remove ********************************************************************************************************* From info at gopreipo.com Thu Nov 1 07:10:52 2001 From: info at gopreipo.com (info at gopreipo.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:10:52 Subject: How to get in on an IPO! Message-ID: <20011101130548.920241C3E1291@smtp2.163.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at gopreipo.com Thu Nov 1 07:10:59 2001 From: info at gopreipo.com (info at gopreipo.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:10:59 Subject: How to get in on an IPO! Message-ID: <20011101130555.AA6C41C819CC3@smtp2.163.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at gopreipo.com Thu Nov 1 07:11:26 2001 From: info at gopreipo.com (info at gopreipo.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:11:26 Subject: How to get in on an IPO! Message-ID: <20011101130623.7C0941D067A93@smtp2.163.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at gopreipo.com Thu Nov 1 07:11:45 2001 From: info at gopreipo.com (info at gopreipo.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:11:45 Subject: How to get in on an IPO! Message-ID: <20011101130758.F30821CB053CC@smtp7.163.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dog3 at ns.charc.net Thu Nov 1 04:24:55 2001 From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:24:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: DMCA UCITA, where's the beef? (off topic) Message-ID: Aside from Dimitry, Has any "person" been successfully prosecuted under the DMCA? or under UCITA? or any other of these anti-piracy laws in the US? Operation Sundevil took place a relatively long time ago. We all hear dire warnings relative to software piracy and rumors of the Secret Service showing up and shutting a company down for bootleg M$ Office products and such things. But has anything like this actually happened? Yes, I hear folks go on and on about Steve Jackson Games, but I haven't seen anyone really concern themselves too much about the millions of bootlegs of M$ and Adon'tBee products in use in corporate america. Where lies the truth? anyone? From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 1 05:25:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:25:48 -0600 Subject: New law contains ID-card proposal -- The Washington Times Message-ID: <3BE14D5C.78D4048E@ssz.com> http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20011031-576161.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbroiles at well.com Thu Nov 1 09:01:58 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:01:58 -0800 Subject: DMCA UCITA, where's the beef? (off topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101084640.038a8b30@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 07:24 AM 11/1/2001 -0500, cubic-dog wrote: >Aside from Dimitry, (who *hasn't* been successfully prosecuted yet, just arrested - that distinction may continue to be meaningful for another few weeks so I'm sentimental about it .. ) >Has any "person" been successfully prosecuted under >the DMCA? or under UCITA? or any other of these >anti-piracy laws in the US? I'm not sure what you mean when you put person in quotes like that. Yes, there have been some successful criminal cases against copyright infringers - the legislation of particular interest was called the "No Electronic Theft Act" (UCITA is mostly concerned with licensing details, not piracy per se). A self-congratulatory press release from the US DOJ after the first NETA prosecution in 1999 can be found at ; there have been other arrests, which, like most federal prosecutions (and, indeed, most prosecutions) were resolved with guilty pleas, not trials, so there weren't exciting Slashdot stories to read. >Operation Sundevil took place a relatively long >time ago. We all hear dire warnings relative to >software piracy and rumors of the Secret Service >showing up and shutting a company down for bootleg >M$ Office products and such things. But has anything >like this actually happened? Yes. See for examples if you're talking about professional pirates - if what you mean is "Will I get arrested if I install the same copy of Microsoft Office on 3 or 4 computers?" the answer is "No", but if those 3 or 4 computers are at a workplace, and employees learn of the copying and are later laid off or fired or otherwise become disgruntled, there's a modest chance that they'll exact some revenge by reporting the company to the SPA/BSA, who send grouchy letters and threaten audits, and actually do them once in awhile, which tend to be embarassing and disruptive and expensive. -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 1 02:06:30 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:06:30 +0000 Subject: Transparency Spray? [was Transperancy Spray? ] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030162551.02e4f8c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BDEDAC2.9950.113E5947@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031184410.02cde940@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <3BE11EA5.E633D0BB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Reese asked: > How dry will the air be at the burning cherry on a cigarette? Quite wet, because the combustion adds water vapour to the air. It won't be much good at physically wetting things, because the air is warm, but the water vapour is there and being hot will be chemically quite active. Hold a piece of cool glassware near a bunsen burner or candle flame and you will see lots of condensation. No, not *that* near... Ken Brown From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 1 07:31:35 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:31:35 -0500 Subject: Fw: New Scientist: Microwave Crowd Dispersal Tested (ADT) Message-ID: > cpaul[SMTP:inc at fastmedia.net] > > > > On Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 07:12 PM, cpaul wrote: > > > > > aluminum foil? > > > > http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/tech/heatison.jsp > > > > > > Microwave beam weapon to disperse crowds > > > > i've been following the development of this skin heating > device for a while, and am keen to learn if there may be > an effective means to counter its use. > > the new scientist article suggests that the cornea is not > as resilient as skin when it comes to being bombarded with > microwaves, hence i seek opinions on how one might protect > oneself. > > if asking such is inane then i guess i should ask to have > my final request. > Leather or wet clothes may shield most of the body. A wild guess to protect the eyes would be something that puts a transparent conductive material over them - mirror sunglasses, the mylar glasses used for eclipse observations (though you could not see anything else through them :-(), or the conductive, mostly transparent plastic material which is used to package static sensitive electronic components. Another possibility is to make goggles out of metal flyscreen - since the wavelength is 3mm, it's doubtful that they can penetrate. Chain mail would also work for the body. Peter From bandcampbiacjes at msn.com Thu Nov 1 23:14:16 2001 From: bandcampbiacjes at msn.com (bandcampbiacjes at msn.com) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 11:14:16 -2000 Subject: A:\adult subjects2.txt OY Message-ID: <00005b5c0bdd$00007db1$00001417@A:\hotmaillocalhost.txt> http://www.teen-pie.com/index.html?hendrix Hey Baby Come bang me and my teen Bandcamp friends, Click on this link so I can feel you inside me http://www.teen-pie.com/index.html?hendrix WARNING: This site contains sexually explicit materials. You must be 18 or older to proceed. To be taken off this list res pond with "get me off" From jei at cc.hut.fi Thu Nov 1 01:47:09 2001 From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:47:09 +0200 (EET) Subject: RIAA Wants Background Checks on CD-RW Buyers Message-ID: http://www.bbspot.com/news/2001/10/riaa.html Technology News Monday October 29 10:52 PM EST RIAA Wants Background Checks on CD-RW Buyers Washington DC - The RIAA is lobbying for vendors of CD-RW drives to conduct background checks and require a 3 day waiting period before the drive can be sold. The extensive background check would include cross referencing credit card numbers with local merchants sales logs looking for purchases of dual-cassette decks between the years of 1980 and 1987. It would also include checking for installation of file sharing software, knowledge of the Internet, and the ability to hum. Any of which would bar the purchaser from receiving his drive. Saaaatan? "A CD-RW can be a dangerous weapon when it falls into the wrong hands," said RIAA President Hilary Rosen, "You wouldn't sell a gun to a convicted felon and you shouldn't sell a CD-RW drive to a Gnutella user. The 3 day waiting period gives us time to verify that no copyrighted material is on the purchasers hard drive and to make sure they have a membership in the Columbia House CD club." Current owners of CD-RW drives would be required to obtain a license for use of the drive or face stiff fines. Licenses could be obtained by enrollment at a local RIAA Education Camp where the horrors of copyright violation would be instilled with the use of electro-shock therapy. "I was alarmed when I heard that children had the ability to burn CDs right on their computers," said Senator Strom Thurmond, "We've tried to educate parents on the dangers of children playing with fire, and now these death merchants sell them that ability in a shiny metal box." Other Senators voiced their concerns about the possible violations of privacy in the proposed legislation, but since it was called the Copyright Patriotism Act they are unable to oppose it. "The RIAA has gone too far this time. There are uses for CD-RW drives that don't violate RIAA copyrights like burning multiple copies of Microsoft Office for friends and neighbors," said Matthew Sodor an opponent of the legislation. Other News: From news at mailings.advisorteam.com Thu Nov 1 11:59:32 2001 From: news at mailings.advisorteam.com (David Keirsey & AdvisorTeam) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 11:59:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: A New Look for PersonalityZone(tm) - October 2001 Message-ID: 
PersonalityZone N E W S L E T T E R by AdvisorTeam - October, 2001

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IN THIS ISSUE:

  OUR NEW LOOK: Come See The New Look Of Your Personality

  TEMPERAMENT IN ACTION: A New Way To Discover Yourself

  @ ADVISORTEAM: Career Services - Counseling and Assessment

  CAREER 911: Does Your Job Match Your Temperament?

  CARTOON: Personalities At Work

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TEMPERAMENT IN ACTION: Discover Your Intelligences 
AdvisorTeam Offers A New Way To Discover Yourself 

The American education system embraces I.Q. testing as a quick way
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Career Services - Counseling And Assessment 

Many people want to know what kind of job they are suited for,
based on the fact they are of a certain type. 

Is there a program using the precepts of Temperament Theory to
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CARTOON  
Jeni Rae Duschak Presents "Personalities At Work"

Visit the new PersonalityZone and view four illustrations of
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-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 14276 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hakkin at sarin.com Thu Nov 1 12:24:10 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:24:10 -0800 Subject: Bahamas biz registry suffers for lack of anonymity Message-ID: <3BE1AF6A.738F3A43@sarin.com> Anonymity Lifted, Fewer Companies Registering in the Bahamas By Samantha JosephAssociated Press Writer Published: Nov 1, 2001 NASSAU, Bahamas (AP) - The number of international companies registering in the Bahamas dropped steeply following tightened regulations that ended anonymous ownership, the attorney general says. Only 4,148 international business companies registered to do business between January and September of this year, Attorney General Carl Bethel said Wednesday. Some 14,500 registered in the same period last year. Earlier this year, the Bahamas was removed from the Paris-based Financial Action Task Force's blacklist of countries deemed uncooperative in fighting money laundering. To get off the blacklist and avoid any sanctions, the Bahamas passed nine laws to strengthen regulations in the offshore sector. One of the new measures eliminated anonymous ownership of international business companies, so-called shell companies, by requiring the names of two directors and the office address on the registration. Any loss in business, however, was worth it to improve the reputation of the Bahamas as an international financial center, Bethel said. "There has been some falloff in this area," he said. "But we think, on balance, the financial services sector is better off." Still, there are some 45,000 international business companies that renewed their licenses this year, Bethel said. If the registrations had been at the same level as last year, the Bahamas would have brought in another $1.5 million in incorporation fees. Bethel said the drop would not have a dramatic effect on the country's overall revenues, because offshore banking and investment services are a more economically vital sector. http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAY95MWITC.html From hakkin at sarin.com Thu Nov 1 12:26:42 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:26:42 -0800 Subject: Sony uses DMCA to harass Aibo user group http://www.aibohack.com Message-ID: <3BE1B002.7E4994F@sarin.com> http://latimes.com/business/la-000086726nov01.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dbusiness%2Dmanual Sony Dogs Aibo Enthusiast's Site Courts: The company uses a controversial law to stop owners from altering the robotic pet. Some consumers balk. By DAVE WILSON and ALEX PHAM, TIMES STAFF WRITERS Sony Corp. is using a controversial U.S. law aimed at protecting intellectual property to pull the plug on a Web site that helps owners of Aibo, Sony's popular and pricey robotic pet, teach their electronic dogs new tricks. Aibo owners are outraged, and hundreds have vowed to stop buying Sony products altogether until the company backs off. Sony has sold more than 100,000 Aibos worldwide since 1999, at prices ranging from $800 to $3,000. The dogs have spawned a community of enthusiasts who fuss over the mechanical marvels as if they were real canines. Last week, Sony executives sent a letter to the operator of a Web site, http://www.aibohack.com, alleging that much of the site's contents-programs and software tools that can modify the Aibo's behavior--was created and distributed in ways that violate the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. The 1998 law was designed to combat the duplication of digitized materials, which can be easily distributed instantaneously worldwide on the Internet. Violators can face monetary damages and even prison time, depending on the nature of the violation. In a prepared statement, Sony officials said they asked only for removal of material it considered illegal and encouraged the distribution of Aibo-related materials that they did not believe infringed the company's rights. Sony sells a number of software kits, usually for about $150, that allow Aibo users to modify the dog's behavior. The software tools removed from the Web site are easier to use and more powerful, according to users--and are available for free. "We do not support the development of software that is created by manipulating existing Sony Aibo-ware code, copying it and/or distributing it via the Internet," the company said. "This is a clear case of copyright infringement, something that most Aibo owners can appreciate and respectfully understand." Critics of the DMCA say the law upsets the delicate balance between the rights of copyright holders to protect their intellectual property and the rights of everyone else to use such items to develop their own works. That has sparked increasing concern in Congress as scientists, librarians, researchers and consumer groups have voiced opposition to the law. "On the surface, Sony appears to be using portions of the DMCA in an attempt to keep people from putting the company's product to new and interesting uses," said Cindy Cohn, legal director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil rights group. "This is exactly the sort of thing we've been concerned about." Cohn said that if Congress does not act, the courts will eventually have to repair the situation. "Sooner or later, this is going to come to a head," she said. "This is a critical societal problem. If we can no longer stand on the shoulders of giants, take a cool thing somebody has made and make it a little bit cooler, progress is stunted, perhaps irreparably." Bob Harting, a Santa Monica potter, has programmed his three Aibos--Sparky, Agent Aibo and Aibojangles--to perform a syncopated dance routine to Madonna's "Vogue." "It's just impossible to do this sort of thing with the Sony tools," he said, as the dogs danced to the music in his living room. "I have bought every accessory made for the Aibo, and nearly every bit of equipment in my apartment--television, VCRs, computers--is from Sony," Harting said. "But I'm not comfortable giving them more money until this is resolved." The man behind Aibohack.com, who goes by the screen name Aibopet and asked to not be identified, removed the contested material from the site, leaving it largely empty except for links to other sites that have organized protests against Sony. He said he incorporates Sony's code into his programs but that no one is harmed. His programs give Aibo owners the ability to manipulate their robot dogs, but only if the user has a legitimate copy of Sony's software. He said that Sony benefits from his work because it generates consumer enthusiasm for Aibo. Although he's upset about being forced to take his tools off the Internet, he said he has no plans to litigate the matter. Before Aibohack.com went down, it saw 400 to 600 visitors a day, many of whom downloaded Aibopet's tools. One of the programs, AiboScope, wirelessly transmits images from the robot's camera to a computer. Another, Disco Aibo, programs Aibo to dance when it hears a specific song. The most recent program is Brainbo, which combines voice-recognition software with a library of answers to various questions. Users can ask the robot a question, and it will pull from the database to lip sync an answer. Aibopet said he has posted more than 1,500 comments, tips and answers to Aibosite.com in the last two years. "I guess you could call it a hobby, but it has gotten a little out of control at times. I just enjoy programming," Aibopet said. "Looking at the last two years, I probably spent more time doing unpaid technical support for Sony than I have playing with my dog. But it's been rewarding. I've met people throughout the world." Experts say Sony risks angering Aibo enthusiasts to the point that they might hurt sales of Aibo and related merchandise but could boost sales of its own software tools. It's a big risk said David A. Aaker, vice chairman of Prophet, a brand strategy consulting firm. Other companies that have faced similar situations have made the opposite choice. Lego Co., a Danish company that makes the classic plastic interlocking children's toy, introduced a computer-controlled set in 1998. MindStorms, as the kit is called, offers users the ability to add motors and an onboard computer to control the creation's behavior. Almost as soon as the toy was introduced, enthusiasts rewrote the software to allow for more complex operation. After much consideration, Lego decided to endorse such hacking, provided that nobody turns their software into a commercial product and that Lego trademarks aren't used. "The decision wasn't easy to make," said Lego spokesman Michael McNally. "We were obviously concerned that if this got out of hand, we could lose control of what we hold as our own. But we decided that if we made this easier for them, they'd be less inclined to change it and dilute it. In a way, we're protecting our own interests." McNally said the decision has helped build the Lego community, but he concedes that Lego's decision was largely made to boost sales. "We're like any other company," he said. "This was about taking the brand forward, creating a larger fan base; and what company wouldn't want to do that? It contributes to the bottom line." From juancarlos at memorykings.net Thu Nov 1 13:04:45 2001 From: juancarlos at memorykings.net (juancarlos at memorykings.net) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:04:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: King Interactive Distributors Message-ID: <200111012104.QAA03706@smtp2.fdn.com> King Interactive distributors Pricelist Update 10-18-01 Ifeel Logitech mouse new retail box $16 First wheel mouse Logitech $7 Roadgear car amp 250 watt. $35 Ant-Boosters & waveguards combos $0.94 Remote control extenders Recotons $12 Flash cards 16 mb $13.50 11 32 mb $15.50 18 64 mb $32 Usb flash card reader & writer $20 Netgear 20 port switch $200 software pc anywhere $3.95 Spy softwhere $3.95 Epson stylus printers 777 $55 Memory 128 mb pc 133 $12 256 mb pc 133 $21 Hewlett Packard scanjet 5100c $30 All prices are negotiable juancarlos at memorykings.net King Interactive Distributors. 5450 S. State rd 7 #11 Ft. Lauderdale, Fl 33314 Toll Free 1-866-218-1263 Fax 954-584-2905 From inc at fastmedia.net Thu Nov 1 19:12:28 2001 From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:12:28 -1000 Subject: Fw: New Scientist: Microwave Crowd Dispersal Tested (ADT) Message-ID: <20011101171228.178850d1.inc@fastmedia.net> aluminum foil? * * * Begin forwarded message: From guest at guest.com Thu Nov 1 02:21:14 2001 From: guest at guest.com (=?GB2312?B?zfjVvr2oyei/1bzk0/LD+w==?=) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:21:14 +0800 Subject: =?GB2312?B?zfjVvr2oyei/1bzk0/LD+w==?= Message-ID: ======================================================================= = 此信若对您不起作用，真对不！我们一定打扰您了，请您把他DEL = ======================================================================= 中国服务全球专业的域名注册提供商，现推出主机、域名注册优惠服务： “特惠1+1企业上网套餐”是中国服务器网络有限公司为您推出的超值服务， “先服务，后收费！”内容包括： 　　 30M asp cgi,php +ACCESS 数据库,送国际顶级域名一个 250元/年 (送五个邮箱) 100M asp cgi,php +ACCESS 数据库,送国际顶级域名一个，只需 350元/年(送六个邮箱) 200N asp cgi,php +ACCESS 数据库,送国际顶级域名一个,只需 600元/年 特惠1+1上网套餐是企业上网，企业商务化的理想选择，现正火爆选购中 快速度申请(请点击）： http://www.linemail.net/host/index.asp ===================================================================== 百度竞价、新浪排名、搜狐排名、网易排名等服务，使您的网站知名度大大提 高。系列超值赠送服务，不可不看！ 马上申请: http://www.linemail.net/special/index.asp ====================================================================== 欢迎访问我司网站进一步了解： http://www.linemail.net 联系电话:0592-2180338 QQ:93767793 From inc at fastmedia.net Thu Nov 1 21:44:41 2001 From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:44:41 -1000 Subject: Fw: New Scientist: Microwave Crowd Dispersal Tested (ADT) In-Reply-To: <804761CB-CE98-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> References: <20011101171228.178850d1.inc@fastmedia.net> <804761CB-CE98-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011101194441.6565ab3a.inc@fastmedia.net> > On Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 07:12 PM, cpaul wrote: > > > aluminum foil? > > http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/tech/heatison.jsp > > > > Microwave beam weapon to disperse crowds On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:17:25 -0800 Tim May wrote: > More inane pseudo-questions. > > The list has degenerated to a new low. > > Into the cornfield you go. i've been following the development of this skin heating device for a while, and am keen to learn if there may be an effective means to counter its use. the new scientist article suggests that the cornea is not as resilient as skin when it comes to being bombarded with microwaves, hence i seek opinions on how one might protect oneself. if asking such is inane then i guess i should ask to have my final request. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 1 17:49:04 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:49:04 -0600 Subject: The Register - 'DeCSS' DVD descrambler ruled legal Message-ID: <3BE1FB90.E4A59703@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/22613.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 1 17:59:27 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:59:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Register - 'DeCSS' DVD descrambler ruled legal In-Reply-To: <3BE1FB90.E4A59703@ssz.com> Message-ID: That judge only caught half of it, if the 1's and 0's don't pass any ideas then how does the hardware know what to do? After all, compiling to binary only converts one language to another. There is NOTHING in the 1st that allows one language to receive protection over another. It says 'speech', as in 'all speech'. The fact is that anybody who knows the hex codes of the CPU can read the compiled code and determine exactly what the 'ideas' in the source code were. On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/22613.html -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From vhs8633 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 1 12:51:48 2001 From: vhs8633 at hotmail.com (Allen Tharp) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 20:51:48 +0000 Subject: Password Message-ID: I need a password for an AOL account, can you help? I'm desperate. My wife is having an affair with this guy. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From whatsnew at launch-media.net Thu Nov 1 21:04:50 2001 From: whatsnew at launch-media.net (Launch) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 21:04:50 PST Subject: See Britney's hot new video, Cranberries new album, Jay-Z vid + more! Message-ID: <200111020441.UAA00517@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5023 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lance.james at bakbone.com Thu Nov 1 21:46:14 2001 From: lance.james at bakbone.com (Lance James) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:46:14 -0800 Subject: Password Message-ID: <3A161D00A21FD411AFDD00508B938E31CD6783@hqmail.bakbone.com> You'd think we were hackers. Go to alt.hackers or something. Bye. Lance -----Original Message----- From: Allen Tharp To: cypherpunks at toad.com Sent: 11/1/01 12:51 PM Subject: Password I need a password for an AOL account, can you help? I'm desperate. My wife is having an affair with this guy. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 1 20:32:34 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:32:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Revised CFP (extended deadline): Financial Cryptography 2002 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:27:44 -0500 From: Matt Blaze To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Revised CFP (extended deadline): Financial Cryptography 2002 Revised Call for Papers Financial Cryptography '02 NOTE EXTENDED DEADLINE March 11-14, 2002 Sonesta Beach Resort Southhampton, Bermuda Sponsored by the International Financial Cryptography Association Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data security and digital commerce for submission to the Sixth Annual Conference on Financial Cryptography (FC '02). FC '02 brings together researchers in the financial, legal, cryptologic, and data security fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas. Relevant topics include: Anonymity Infrastructure Design Audit Legal and Regulatory Authentication and Issues Identification Loyalty Mechanisms Certification and Peer-to-Peer Systems Authorization Payments and Commercial Transactions Micropayments and Contracts Privacy Digital Cash Risks Management Digital Rights Secure Banking Management Smart Cards Electronic Purses Trust Management Implementation Issues Watermarking Information Economics Instructions for Authors: Complete papers (or complete extended abstracts) must be at most fifteen (15) single-spaced standard pages in length and must be received before 23h59 UTC on November 11, 2001. All papers must be submitted electronically. (In exceptional circumstances, paper submissions can be accepted, but special arrangements must be made with the program chair prior to October 31, 2001.) Papers must be in either standard PostScript or PDF format, and should be submitted via electronic mail to fc02submit at crypto.com prior to the deadline. Note that submissions in formats other than PostScript or PDF, including word processor source formats such as MS Word or LaTeX, will be rejected. Submitted papers should include on the first page the title, all authors and their affiliations, a brief abstract, and a list of topical keywords. Papers must be original; submission of previously published material or papers under consideration in other conferences or journals is not permitted. A proceedings will be published as part of the LNCS series. Authors of accepted papers will have an opportunity to revise their papers for final publication after the conference. Proposals for panels are also solicited, and should include a brief description of the panel as well as prospective participants. Panel proposals should be submitted by electronic mail to the same address, in plain ASCII format. Important Dates: Submissions due: November 11, 2001 Notifications to authors: December 23, 2001 Camera-ready papers due: February 4, 2002 General Chair: Nicko van Someren (nCipher) Program Committee: Matt Blaze, Program Chair (AT&T Labs) Dan Boneh (Stanford University) Stefan Brands (Zero Knowledge) Dan Geer (@stake) Ian Goldberg (Zero Knowledge) Angelos Keromytis (Columbia University) Paul Kocher (Cryptography Research) Ron Rivest (MIT) Tomas Sander (Intertrust) Rebecca Wright (AT&T Labs) --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From terra at mailbox.lycos.com Thu Nov 1 14:59:25 2001 From: terra at mailbox.lycos.com (Terra Lycos Network) Date: 1 Nov 2001 22:59:25 -0000 Subject: Changes across Terra Lycos Message-ID: <20011101225925.25684.qmail@newman10.dc3.lycos.com> Dear rivermaste, We're excited to announce some new changes across Terra Lycos. For the past few months we've asked for your feedback, listened to your input and have made some enhancements to the products and services that you use today. The users who have previewed the sites have overwhelmingly preferred the new designs, and we hope you do too. Rest assured, you will still have all the same great features and services that you've come to know, but we've added a new look and updated the sites -- making it easier and faster to move around the network. Here's a brief outline of what to expect: *New Network Login* -- to make it easier for you to sign in and out of all the Lycos products and services you use, we have moved the "Log In/Log Out" button to the top of each page. You'll see this Login button across all sites that require member registration. *More Content* -- you will see a new page layout across our sites, the goal was to add more information, and present it in an engaging, compelling format loaded with photographs. *New Navigation* -- on many of the sites, we have created a left-hand navigational scheme to make it easier for you to surf across Terra Lycos. *What's on the Network* -- we've added three new photo-rich sites that group featured content chosen specifically for like-minded users and to serve as a great place to start a daily Web adventure. Check out: http://www.angelfire.com -- a hip site that combines entertainment content covering music, film, tv, celebrities and more with easy homepage building -- it's the best place on the Web for users to express themselves. http://familyzone.lycos.com -- an online magazine for parents and kids with recipes, health and pregnancy information, useful tips and a wealth of fun activities. http://holidays.lycos.com -- your holiday survival site is here to help you plan for a well-organized and hassle-free holiday season. If you haven't sampled our wide range of other sites and services, check out: Lycos (http://www.lycos.com) Matchmaker (http://www.matchmaker.com) Gamesville (http://www.gamesville.com) Quote (http://www.quote.com) Raging Bull (http://www.ragingbull.com) Wired News (http://www.wired.com) Tripod (http://www.tripod.com) HtmlGear (http://www.htmlgear.com) These enhancements are part of our commitment to bring you the best content and services available on the Web. Welcome to the new Terra Lycos. We hope you enjoy your stay! -The Terra Lycos Team <><><><><><><><><><> We do not monitor responses sent to this email address. If you need to contact Terra Lycos for customer or technical support, please visit http://help.lycos.com As a Terra Lycos member, you have received this e-mail to inform you of new services. Our policy has always been to send e-mail messages only to announce such information, and we'll continue to honor this policy. Thank you for being a Terra Lycos member. To change your email preferences and other user account information, click here: http://ldbauth.lycos.com/cgi-bin/fmayaRegister?m_RC=4 <><><><><><><><><><> From mailers-wanted at Prosper.zzn.com Fri Nov 2 02:36:06 2001 From: mailers-wanted at Prosper.zzn.com (mailers-wanted at Prosper.zzn.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 02:36:06 -0800 Subject: !!!EARN BIG $$$ POSTING GIO FLIERS!!! Message-ID: <6C4DFBE763F9D3F47AF5BD91F3BC5786@mailers-wanted.Prosper.zzn.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20212 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mattd at useoz.com Thu Nov 1 10:18:32 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 05:18:32 +1100 Subject: FBI MAS Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011102050653.009e57e0@pop.useoz.com> "There is a room full of frustrated males that don't get enough sex from their ugly wives and expensive mistresses " And I bet a few miss the old boss in drag...but seriously,the above sentence reminds me of my 2600 list here, where Im a well known 'white hat'hacker.I hear some of my friends are scarfing up the names of all known FBIers (like special agent lynne hunt in the register today) This is to protect them from the baddies like the lasker jihad.Keep those names coming.The C/list goes on forever. From piolenc at mozcom.com Thu Nov 1 16:24:54 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:24:54 +0800 Subject: Transperancy Spray? References: <20011029222355.A10269@spheno.jokeslayer.com> Message-ID: <3BE1E7D6.22F04BBC@mozcom.com> You can find formulas for this spray in many formularies - it's been used at least as far back as WWI for making an envelope transparent for a few minutes. Actually, translucent would be a better term, as you can only read text that is right up against the inside of the envelope. What is more, the stuff is less useful than back in the fountain-pen days because it tends to smear ball-point and other greasy inks. Marc de Piolenc Max Inux wrote: THe > whole cant read someone elses mail thing is out the window it looks like, they can spray this go on the letter and read > through the envelope.. It seems implausable but its CNN, they dont lie right? well ANYWAYS, I now have a nice stash of black > construction paper... -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin From hakkin at sarin.com Fri Nov 2 08:32:28 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:32:28 -0800 Subject: All your youth are belong to US Message-ID: <3BE2CA9C.F18747FC@sarin.com> THE WORLD & NATION Bill Could Boost Recruiting at Schools Privacy: Federal measure would force high schools to give names, addresses and phone numbers to the military. By RICHARD LEE COLVIN, TIMES EDUCATION WRITER U.S. high schools would be required to aid military recruiters by turning over the names, addresses and telephone numbers of their students under a federal bill that has drawn fire from educators and privacy advocates. Nearly half of the schools in California and about a third nationwide restrict recruiters' access to that information or to their campuses, according to the Department of Defense. If the provision is approved by Congress and signed by President Bush, school districts that fail to comply could face substantial losses of federal aid. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000087211nov02.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation%2Dmanual From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 2 09:42:07 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:42:07 -0800 Subject: Using Thermite to Drop Suspension Bridges...and U.S. plans to do so Message-ID: Cypherpunks, Here's an item I sent to another forum about using thermite to cut the cables on suspension bridges. A couple of folks had claimed that using explosives on the piers and other support structures would be extraordinarily difficult to arrange (and detectable by bridge security personnel). I agreed, but noted in my piece that thermite quickly placed on the main cables could cut or weaken the cables significantly. (Merely damaging the cables by more than about 30% might require, for liability and public perception reasons, the shut down of the Golden Gate Bridge for as many months or years as it might take to replace the main cable--the cable is a continuous one, and is not "segment-replaceable." It is possible that some clamp bypass might be possible, but I would be skeptical that clamps could handle the tension.) An interesting part of the URL chunk included below is that the DOD endorses use of "peacetime" operations to collapse bridges...surely an act of "terrorism" comparable to bringing down the World Trade Center. (Oh, I forgot, if the CIA does it to a country we are not at war with, it's "nation-building," not terrorism.) I found this URL, and several equally-interesting ones, as part of my research on using thermite to collapse suspension bridges. Looks like the U.S. military has been planning similar ops for a while...could be why the alerts are being taken seriously by the gubmint. --begin excerpt-- From: Tim May Date: Fri Nov 02, 2001 12:26:29 AM US/Pacific To: tcmay at got.net Subject: Re: Dropping the Bridges is Easy [[ This message was also posted as: <021120010026271382%tcmay at got.net> ]] More comments on using thermite to drop the bridges: In article <011120012309364728%tcmay at got.net>, Tim May wrote: A conventional medium- or low-velocity explosion would not hurt the piers, obviously. Too massive, and MV and LV explosions, by definition, have little effect on such structures. Even a high-velocity explosion would have a hard time wrecking the piers. However, suspension bridges are obviously subject to having the suspension cables cut. Enough RDX would do the job even on the massive GG Bridge. However, there are lower-tech ways to do it even more easily: A thermite blanket wrapped around one of the main suspension cables of the Golden Gate would probably drop the span. Hitting both cables would be best, and matches the M.O. of the 911 attacks. A truck pulls up, stops, a few men wrap the cable with 60 pounds of thermite. Once ignited, should cut through the thousands of strands like butter. (A thermal lance might also do the job, but would require a man to aim the lance for long enough. This man could be taken out and the plan thwarted. Wrapping the cable is preferable...once that thermite process starts, essentially nothing stops it.) I found some sources showing that the intelligence services around the world are already planning to use such methods ("in peacetime," which many would call "terrorism," unless it's done by the U.S. of A.). Some quotes from http://www.ndu.edu/inss/books/milgeo/milgeoch11.html The Institute for National Strategic Studies, part of the National Defense University at Fort McNair and in Norfolk, VA. Note the mention of thermite, and the cutting of suspension cables. Note also that the manual is talking about doing these things as an act of terrorism (covert, against civil facilities). "Covert operations that conceal the identity of, or permit plausible denial by, perpetrators moreover may be politically prudent, especially in "peacetime." ....Brittle cast iron breaks easily, but acetylene torches or thermite may be needed to slice nickel-molybdenum steel, which strongly resists conventional explosives. Proper placement is at least as important as destructive power..... Professionals whose mission is to stop road and river traffic temporarily cut supports at one end of truss bridges so affected spans fall in the water; they cut trusses at midspan to make bridges buckle if long-lasting destruction is the intent. Massive towers and thick cables on major suspension bridges resist powerful explosive charges, but slender suspenders that hang therefrom do not--roadway sections collapse if they are cut." --end excerpt-- --Tim May ""Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." --Patrick Henry From ericm at lne.com Fri Nov 2 09:46:50 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:46:50 -0800 Subject: Is list up? In-Reply-To: <3BE2C607.599BF394@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>; from k.brown@ccs.bbk.ac.uk on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:12:55PM +0000 References: <604E0048-CE37-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> <3BE2C607.599BF394@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20011102094650.A24293@slack.lne.com> On Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:12:55PM +0000, Ken Brown wrote: > Bad from to send tests to lists but no traffic here from either lne or > one of Choate's. > > ? problems in lists ? Network feed problem for lne. My network provider has some flaky gear, but they don't resrict what packets I send and when I call up their tech support I get someone who's got a clue. BTW now that winter is coming on, lne will get a little flakier-- we're in a rural area and sometimes have power outages when trees fall on the power lines. I've got a generator but it takes some time to set up and I don't like to run it at night. For short outages I don't bother to set it up, and when there is a long outage I'll run the generator during the day only. So what I'm saying here is don't worry if there's nothing from the list for a few hours. BTW, if you want to do a test, try sending an info request to majordomo@ the site you're testing. That way you don't have to post to the whole list. Also, I leave the ICMP port to mail.lne.com open so you can try pinging it to see if we're connected. Eric From fletcher at talstar.com Fri Nov 2 06:48:54 2001 From: fletcher at talstar.com (curtis) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:48:54 -0500 Subject: Password References: Message-ID: <3BE2B256.9902C707@talstar.com> if she is having an affair leave her or kick her out, if you can't trust her you don't need her. Allen Tharp wrote: > I need a password for an AOL account, can you help? I'm desperate. My wife > is having an affair with this guy. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From pmoreton at cesinc.com Fri Nov 2 07:57:18 2001 From: pmoreton at cesinc.com (Paul Moreton (VP)) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:57:18 -0600 Subject: New Quickoffice 5.6 for Palm handhelds Message-ID: Hello, Recently, you sampled Quickoffice for your Palm handheld. We've just released a new version that includes significant updates to Quickword and Quicksheet. This new version is something you'll want to have on your handheld for documents and spreadsheets. Today, I am making you a special limited-time offer. You can purchase Quickoffice 5.6.2, including Quicksheet, Quickchart, and Quickword for only $19.95 which is 50% off the regular price. The only way to get this special price is by clicking this link: https://sprite.cesinc.com/secure/buyonline2_qopromo4.asp . You can't get this price by going to our regular website, it's an Internet only promotion that I am offering to a special customer. In the new version of Quickword, we've added formatting, bulleted lists, justification, fonts, color, highlighting, HTML editing, and better integration with MS Word 97 or newer (2000 or XP recommended). In Quicksheet, we've added 25 more functions, cell color formatting, Sony CLIE hi-res support and a host of other features that continue to make Quicksheet the best spreadsheet for Palm handhelds. Did you know that Quicksheet has won "Best spreadsheet for Palm" for 4 years in a row? Quickoffice is hands down the best, most feature rich, and useful program for your Palm. Once again, that special price is $19.95 and you can only get it here: https://sprite.cesinc.com/secure/buyonline2_qopromo4.asp If you have any questions, please feel free to email me. I'd love to answer your questions and look forward to having you as a customer. Sincerely, Paul Moreton Vice-President of Marketing and Sales Cutting Edge Software, Inc. 214.956.9806 x1 email: pmoreton at cesinc.com From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Nov 2 11:20:16 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:20:16 -0800 Subject: Using Thermite to Drop Suspension Bridges...and U.S. plans to Message-ID: <200111021920.fA2JKGU62869@mailserver1.hushmail.com> There are various formulations for thermite. The one I like best uses barium peroxide, sulphur and very finely divided aluminum (paint pigment works great). Thermite is nice cause its not explosive or shock sensitive and can be ignited by a simple green fireworks fuse. From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Nov 2 11:27:17 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:27:17 -0800 Subject: King George II: Only in America Message-ID: <200111021927.fA2JRHE64544@mailserver1.hushmail.com> The video was shot at the August 29, 1992 wedding of Jamie Weiss, the daughter of Dubya's close friends Mike and Nancy Weiss. Mike, a Lubbock, Texas lawyer and CPA, was Bush's campaign chairman during his first political race (an unsuccessful 1978 congressional bid) and was one of the Texas governor's earliest political appointments. When cameraman T. Patrick Murray filmed Bush during the wedding reception at a Lubbock country club, the future governor took some rambling--and we presume good-natured--swipes at the newlyweds, the bride's parents, and her brother Kelly (Bush was being quizzed by a member of the bridal party). We love the part where teetotaler George actually disses two of the Weisses for supposedly not drinking or smoking. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/bush/bush.shtml From burntcircuit at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 08:37:49 2001 From: burntcircuit at yahoo.com (BurntCircuit) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:37:49 -0500 Subject: Password In-Reply-To: <3A161D00A21FD411AFDD00508B938E31CD6783@hqmail.bakbone.com> Message-ID: LOL but the wannabes there arnt hackers either -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at toad.com]On Behalf Of Lance James Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 00:46 To: 'Allen Tharp '; 'cypherpunks at toad.com ' Subject: RE: Password You'd think we were hackers. Go to alt.hackers or something. Bye. Lance -----Original Message----- From: Allen Tharp To: cypherpunks at toad.com Sent: 11/1/01 12:51 PM Subject: Password I need a password for an AOL account, can you help? I'm desperate. 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If you have received this email in error, use your handle and password to log in at http://AdultFriendFinder.com. Go to your "Update" area and click on the appropriate text links to designate your mailing preferences. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11029 bytes Desc: not available URL: From newsletters at the-financial-news.org Fri Nov 2 05:37:56 2001 From: newsletters at the-financial-news.org (The Financial News) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:37:56 +0100 Subject: Production Mini-plants in mobile containers Message-ID: The Financial News, November 2001 Production Mini-plants in mobile containers "...Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and the necessary support for the production in series of Mini-plants in mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is to say, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production." More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for Construction Framework, Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Façades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares, Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups, Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging, Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material, Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc. For more information: Mini-plants in mobile containers By Steven P. Leibacher, The Financial News, Editor ------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you received this in error or would like to be removed from our list, please return us indicating: remove or un-subscribe in 'subject' field, Thanks. Editor © 2001 The Financial News. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2348 bytes Desc: not available URL: From agents at latticesemi.com Fri Nov 2 07:32:04 2001 From: agents at latticesemi.com (agents at latticesemi.com) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:32:04 +0000 Subject: Stay Current with Lattice Alerts! Message-ID: <200111040118.fA41Ipq27168@hood.latticesemi.com> Stay Current With Lattice Web Alerts! ------------------------------------- Dear Random Hacker, Lattice Semiconductor thanks you for your interest in our products and services. We are pleased to provide you, our valued customer, a means to keep current on Lattice's industry-leading programmable logic, digital cross-switch, and programmable analog products. Lattice "Web Agents" is a new Lattice web site capability that allows you to: * receive email alerts on the latest Lattice products and business developments * fully customize your information flow * control the topics and frequency of your personalized alerts It's easy. It's convenient. It's completely controlled by YOU. Simply go to to create your own Lattice Web Agents. Questions? Visit Web Agent FAQs: Thanks again for your interest in Lattice Semiconductor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lattice Semiconductor occassionally sends announcements for new and innovative products and services as they become available. If you do not wish to receive these email announcements in the future, go to the following link to stop receiving them: ================================================================================ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2127 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 2 13:41:38 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:41:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: Is list up? In-Reply-To: <3BE2C607.599BF394@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Ken Brown wrote: > Bad from to send tests to lists but no traffic here from either lne or > one of Choate's. > > ? problems in lists ? ???? Wanna say that in plain English... It's been a slow couple of days. -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Nov 2 08:12:55 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:12:55 +0000 Subject: Is list up? References: <604E0048-CE37-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BE2C607.599BF394@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Bad from to send tests to lists but no traffic here from either lne or one of Choate's. ? problems in lists ? Ken From verba at rol.it Fri Nov 2 07:28:53 2001 From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:28:53 +0100 Subject: Verba Volant del 02-11-01 Message-ID: <1004718534@web2bk.logos.it> Verba Volant del 02-11-01, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com _________________ Quotation of the day: Author - Karl Marx http://www.logos.it/bio/karl_marx.html English - the circumstances make the man no less than the man makes the circumstances Italian - le circostanze fanno l'uomo non meno di quanto l'uomo faccia le circostanze Spanish - las circunstancias forman al hombre no menos que el hombre a las circunstancias French - les circonstances ne font pas moins l'homme que l'homme fait les circonstances Portuguese - as circunst�ncias criam o homem n�o menos do que o homem cria as circunst�ncias Brazilian Portuguese - as circunst�ncias criam o homem n�o menos do que o homem cria as circunst�ncias German - die Verh�ltnisse formen den Menschen nicht weniger, als der Mensch die Verh�ltnisse schafft Hungarian - a k�r�lm�nyek legal�bb annyira alak�tj�k az embert, mint az ember a k�r�lm�nyeket Finnish - olosuhteet tekev�t ihmisen yht� paljon kuin ihminen olosuhteet Croatian - uvjeti cine covjeka ne manje koliko covjek stvara uvjete Czech - okolnosti utv�rej� cloveka o nic m�ne, ne� clovek utv�r� okolnosti Dutch - de omstandigheden maken de man niet minder dan wat de man met de omstandigheden doet Emiliano-Romagnolo - la situazioun l'� sustenza d'l om din t'las misura misma ad quel l'om al fa la situazioun Furlan - lis circostanzis 'a fasin l'omp no mancul di tant che l'omp al f�s lis circostanzis Galician - as circunstancias fan o home non menos do que o home fai as circunstancias Latin - adiuncta hominem faciunt non minus quam homo adiuncta facit Latvian; Lettish - apstakli veido cilveku ne mazak ka cilveks veido apstaklus Occitan - lhi fachs fan l'�me autant que l'�me fai lhi fachs Polish - okolicznosci ksztaltuja czlowieka niemniej niz czlowiek ksztaltuje okolicznosci Romanian - circumstantele creaza omul �n aceeasi masura �n care omul creaza circumstantele Slovak - okolnosti utv�raj� cloveka nie viac, ako clovek utv�ra okolnosti Venetian - la circostanse fa l'omo no' manco de quanto l'omo fassa le circostanse Sicilian - 'i circostanzi fannu l'omu non menu di quantu l'omu fa i circostanzi Flemish - de omstandigheden maken de mens niet minder dan wat de mens met de omstandigheden doet Calabrese - i casi da a vita fani l'uomu nun menu di quantu l'uomu fa i casi da a vita Reggiano - al circostansi e fan l'om m�a meno ed quant l'om al f�ga al circostansi Ferrarese - il circustanzz f� l'oman non men ad quant l'oman al faga il circustanzz Bolognese - i qu� ch�i i stan d int�uren i fan l �men, br�sa manc ed quant l �men as f�ga i qu� ch�i i stan d int�uren _________________ All languages, please click on this link http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=435 _________________ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:" From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 2 15:02:45 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:02:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: update.563 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:51:19 -0500 (EST) From: AIP listserver To: physnews-mailing at aip.org Subject: update.563 PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 563 October 30, 2001 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James Riordon WHAT IS INTELLIGENCE? This may seem to be more of a question for psychologists than physicists. But two researchers (Joseph Wakeling, jwakeling at webdrake.net, now at the University of Fribourg, Switzerland, and Per Bak, Imperial College, 011-44-20- 7594-8528, p.bak at ic.ac.uk) argue that intelligence is not an abstract concept, but must be considered as a physical phenomenon. Any definition of intelligence, they say, cannot ignore a living being's environment, including its very own body. In their view, an organism is only intelligent relative to how well it solves the problems that its surroundings throw at it. This runs counter to many historical ideas, including the concept that the mind is separate from the body, or that it is possible to build a desktop computer that thinks like a human without having the same physical environment or body. To explore the idea of intelligence, the researchers ran computer simulations of artificial neural networks called "minibrains." In the simulations, 251 minibrains each attempted to pick the less popular of two choices, 0 and 1, analogous to 251 motorists all trying to pick the less congested road. This "Minority Game" would be repeated over many successive rounds. Each minibrain consisted of three layers of "neurons": "input neurons," which dictated how many past rounds it could remember, leading to an intermediary layer, which then led into an "output" layer that determined what choice was made. If the minibrain ending up making an incorrect choice, it would reduce the strength of the connections between neurons supplying the "wrong answer." The researchers were in for a surprise when they endowed all of the minibrains with equal abilities, which would be analogous to a bunch of motorists with the same amount of decision-making skill. In this situation, no minibrains correctly guessed the minority choice with even a 50 percent success rate, which is what you'd get by making the choice with a random flip of a coin. Even an E. coli bacterium, which searches for glucose by moving in random directions in its environment, is seemingly more intelligent than this. Only when the researchers introduced a "rogue" minibrain with more intermediate neurons to analyze the past rounds did it attain more than a 50 percent success rate. Their simulations suggest that intelligence often hinges on how much one can make use of the data in its physical environment. (Wakeling and Bak, Physical Review E, November 2001) X-RAY FLASH FLY PHOTOGRAPHY. Researchers at Cornell [SSZ: text deleted] ALL-OPTICAL ELECTRON INJECTOR. Conventional electron [SSZ: text deleted] From kmself at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 2 17:22:20 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:22:20 -0800 Subject: Napster execs needing culling In-Reply-To: <9d6c9f355d32ea9aaef917cae49156c9@hyperreal.pl>; from nobody@hyperreal.pl on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 10:56:20PM -0000 References: <20011030113315.A434@weathership.homeport.org> <9d6c9f355d32ea9aaef917cae49156c9@hyperreal.pl> Message-ID: <20011102172220.B6193@navel.introspect> on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 10:56:20PM -0000, Anonymous (nobody at hyperreal.pl) wrote: > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:29:58 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate wrote: > I'll Fed-Ex an invoice to Hillary Rosen immediately for all the air > he's using up! Hey I just 'farm' the air, I don't ask anyone to breath > it! She. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From unsubscribe at super-offers.net Fri Nov 2 16:23:46 2001 From: unsubscribe at super-offers.net (Michael Brandley) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:23:46 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: If you have a legal problem . . . We Can Help You TODAY! Let us take the next step for you. “FREE Legal Assessment” by a Top Rated Law Firm in Your State or Province. No hourly fees to pay! No hassles! Just tell us a little about your situation and we will guide you through the legal maze. We cover all areas of the legal system and you will be working with a specialized attorney. If you choose, we will even provide you with: · a FREE comprehensive will, · unlimited advice and consultation, · a review of documents and contracts, · and much, much more! All for only pennies a day! We are serious. CLICK HERE to get Your FREE Legal Consultation Today! This message is a promotional service of Super-Offers.Net. You are receiving this message because we feel the services offered may be of benefit to you. If you know anyone who would like to be added to our promotional list, e-mail add at super-offers.net and place the word "ADD" in the subject header. If you do not wish to receive this promotional information, please reply to unsubscribe at super-offers.net with the full body of this message and put the word "REMOVE" in the subject header or click here: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7583 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 2 16:08:21 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 18:08:21 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - ACLU: Face recognition systems ineffective - November 2, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE33575.F2DE3289@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/11/02/rec.face.recognition.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From weekendfreedom at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 01:06:45 2001 From: weekendfreedom at yahoo.com (Diana Miskin) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:06:45 +1000 Subject: My Password Message-ID: <200111020810.AAA15625@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3168 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jet at spies.com Fri Nov 2 19:30:32 2001 From: jet at spies.com (j eric townsend) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:30:32 -0800 Subject: Using Thermite to Drop Suspension Bridges...and U.S. plansto In-Reply-To: <3BE35EEC.C5F8BFB7@mozcom.com> References: <200111021920.fA2JKGU62869@mailserver1.hushmail.com> <3BE35EEC.C5F8BFB7@mozcom.com> Message-ID: At 11:05 +0800 2001/11/03, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: >I would be interested to see that formula. I thought I knew them all, >but all the thermite formulas I know require at least a two-stage >initiator or a direct blowtorch flame. You might want to do some research on 'thermite welding" -- it's a great way to put wires together as well: http://www.corrpro.com/catalog/itm_idx/53.htm -- J. Eric Townsend -- http://www.spies.com/jet Were you in USASSG/ACSI/MACV in Vietnam, 1967-1970? Drop me a line if so... From nobody at hyperreal.pl Fri Nov 2 11:47:41 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 2 Nov 2001 19:47:41 -0000 Subject: Kahn on Invsisble Ink (Was: Transparency Spray?) References: <3BDF5C72.27E822F9@lsil.com> Message-ID: <8dc9b151ca7b909a57e4a98153a18681@hyperreal.pl> S a n d y W r o t e: >Mike [mmotyka at lsil.com] wrote: > >> I would bet that there is SOMETHING that >> is dissolved by liquid freon. Just mark >> your letters with the stuff and look for >> the integrity of the mark at the other end. > >Or... is there something that REACTS to freon in an interesting way...? > > IIRC in 'The Codebreakers' Kahn states that invisible ink can always be read by exposing the paper to iodine vapor, since the 'ink' distorts the fibers of the paper. Even plain water can be used to write messages. This can be defeated by wiping the surface of the paper with a damp sponge, requiring Mallory to find the correct chemical to react with the ink and cause a color change. However, _this_ can be detected by the smear left on the fibers of the paper. Perhaps this also occurs with sprayed on solvents? This could work on 'unprepared' mail. As an added bonus, the iodine vapor is _supposed_ to fade out afterwards, unless you use too much of it as we did in science class trying to develop fingerprints. The Baker Street Irregulars From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 2 18:33:03 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:33:03 -0600 Subject: Security & Personal Communications Message-ID: <3BE3575F.B137D3D4@ssz.com> http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1474/byt20011017s0003/1022_hanger.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Fri Nov 2 20:54:01 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:54:01 PST Subject: FREE 21 Day Trial! 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Keep your eyes open and Have a Great Weekend!!! +>+>+> RELIVE THE MEMORIES OF YESTERDAY WITH CLASSMATES.com - Find out what your high school friends are doing now! http://www.roibot.com/w.cgi?R23683_highschool The Classmates.com website is totally cool and highly recommended by our Staff. It is FREE to register so Click Here Now!!! http://www.roibot.com/w.cgi?R23683_highschool +>+>+> FEATURED WEBSITE OF THE DAY... Sodaplay.com On this website they have essentially constructed wire frame models that you move around in 3-D space and see how they act. It's a pretty revolutionary type of website - I've never seen anything like it. This is a website for geeks and I would call it ULTRA-COOL. http://www.sodaplay.com +>+>+> TO VIEW OUR TWO DAILY STOCK PICKS BY HARRY AND BRUCE - Please go to our website http://www.wallstreetuniverse.com PEACE - Steven Schwartz and Staff mailto:support at wallstreetuniverse.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://inbound.postmastergeneral.com/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.qut.37kh From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 2 21:14:32 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 21:14:32 -0800 Subject: NSA Under Attack Message-ID: <200111030220.VAA20100@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> The Boston Globe had a story on October 27 about NSA refusing to share comint on US persons with other federal agencies, destroying the data upon its lawyers' advice sooner than usual in the face of anti-terrorism pressure. (URL may wrap) http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/300/nation/Spy_agency_destroys_data_anger ing_others_in_probe+.shtml If true, it's a big plus for NSA for complying with the law when others are rushing to bend, break and revise it. Some assholes are calling for unleashing NSA from its Church Committee restrictions, but a few sane people are saying, no, no domestic spying, we don't want to go through that again. To be sure, the story could be a cover for ignoring the law. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 2 21:29:28 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 21:29:28 -0800 Subject: Using Thermite to Drop Suspension Bridges...and U.S. plans to do so In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011102210314.032563f0@idiom.com> At 09:42 AM 11/02/2001 -0800, someone claiming to be Tim May wrote: >I found this URL, and several equally-interesting ones, as part of my >research on using thermite to collapse suspension bridges. Looks like >the U.S. military has been planning similar ops for a while...could be >why the alerts are being taken seriously by the gubmint. Which Gubmint? CA Gov. Gray Davis appears to have taken the FBI's warning seriously enough to go out on a limb and announce that they'd gotten a bit more specific than "Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid, Terrorists are Hiding under the Bed and we WON'T TELL YOU WHICH BED they're hiding under because that would give away our sources and methods! But This Time it's Rilly Cred-a-Bull!" And I think they were only saying that because Jay Leno was giving them a hard time about doing a second no-specifics-attached iteration of "Wolf! Wolf!" and they were worried the sheeple might not fall for it. Of course, that's entirely separate from the problem of whether there *are* wolves, and whether they're more likely to opportunistically take advantage of the current wave of terrorism to do their own, or whether they're more likely to lie low because there are too many cops running around who might catch them, plus too many other people who might get credit for their work, or whether some of the wolves work for or at least with the Feds. >Here's an item I sent to another forum about using thermite to cut the >cables on suspension bridges. A couple of folks had claimed that using >explosives on the piers and other support structures would be >extraordinarily difficult to arrange (and detectable by bridge security >personnel). I agreed, but noted in my piece that thermite quickly placed >on the main cables could cut or weaken the cables significantly. I'd be surprised if you couldn't do the job with an OKC-sized truck bomb - stop it at an appropriate point on the bridge, have the engine compartment smokebomb go off to create plausible deniability, hop into the car your co-conspirators are driving just in front of you, and drive away. If your smokebomb is good enough, and you do it during low traffic, you might get off the bridge without getting caught. The question is how much you trust your backup co-conspirator who's sitting at the vista point with the radio transmitter.... If they're not keeping all trucks off of the bridges, they can't stop it. >An interesting part of the URL chunk included below is that the DOD >endorses use of "peacetime" operations to collapse bridges...surely an >act of "terrorism" comparable to bringing down the World Trade Center. >(Oh, I forgot, if the CIA does it to a country we are not at war with, >it's "nation-building," not terrorism.) The Feds have apparently decided that they should drop their policy of helping the Peruvian Air Force shoot down suspected drug dealing planes, like that US missionary and her baby they took out this spring (shot them down and machine-gunned them as they swam out of the plane.) Not because extra-judicial executions are wrong, of course, or because shooting down civilian airplanes is terrorism, but because their accuracy has been low enough to cause embarassment. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 2 21:40:33 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 21:40:33 -0800 Subject: Wed 7 Nov Stanford - Provos talks on Detecting Steganogaphic Content on the Internet Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011102213204.0326e250@idiom.com> Niels Provos will be talking at Stanford on Wednesday, just a few hours before the EFF BOF at the Linux shindig in Oakland. Does anybody have a picture of a Peter Honeyman related shirt to auction off on E-Bay with appropriate embedded content? :-) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:33:53 -0800 From: ee380 Fnord-content: low, with scattered Elvis later in the evening Subject: Detecting Steganogaphic Content on the Internet * Niels Provos, UMich * W4:15 COMPUTER SYSTEMS LABORATORY COLLOQUIUM 4:15PM, Wednesday, November 07, 2001 NEC Auditorium, Gates Computer Science Building B03 Topic: Detecting Steganographic Content on the Internet Speaker: Niels Provos CITI, University of Michigan About the talk: Steganography is used to hide the occurrence of communication. Recent suggestions in US newspapers indicate that terrorists use steganography to communicate in secret with their accomplices. In particular, images on the Internet were mentioned as the communication medium. While the newspaper articles sounded very dire, none substantiated these rumors. To determine whether there is steganographic content on the Internet, this talk presents a detection framework that includes tools to retrieve images from the world wide web and automatically detect whether they might contain steganographic content. To ascertain that hidden messages exist in images, the detection framework includes a distributed computing framework for launching dictionary attacks hosted on a cluster of loosely coupled workstations. We have analyzed two million images downloaded from eBay auctions but have not been able to find a single hidden message. [see the abstract at http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380 for a list of resouces and related news articles. -dra] About the speaker: Niels Provos is a Ph.D. candidate at the Center for Information Technology Integration of the University of Michigan. His research interests are focused around computer security. Contact information: Niels Provos CITI, University of Michigan 535 W. William Street, 3rd floor Ann Arbor, MI GPS: 42.2775 N, 83.754167 W. 734 764 5207 provos at citi.umich.edu Acknowledgements: Thanks to the Computer Forum for support. The Computer Forum is the industrial affiliate program for the Computer Science Department and the Computer Systems Laboratory. Contact Suzanne Bentley, bentley at cs.stanford.edu, if your company is interested in participation. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Fri Nov 2 22:06:11 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:06:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: American Schools Need Flattening Too Message-ID: <200111030606.fA366B810515@artifact.psychedelic.net> Students in AmeriKKKan government-run schools have never had much freedom of speech, since the courts have ruled that all administrators have to do is mumble something about the "disruption" of the (laugh) "educational process" and civil rights conveniently evaporate. Still, there's something annoying when a high school student isn't allowed to publicly question the War in Afghanistan. Contrast this with the Vietnam War, before the police state had been racheted up to its current degree of tightness. Asscruft now wants life sentences for anyone yelling "Anthrax" in a public place, or sprinkling talcum powder on their friends. "Zero Tolerance" moves from the classroom to the rest of society. In other news, we have received credible information from several usually reliable sources that some unspecified person or group might commit an unspecified terrorist act against an unspecified target in the near but unspecified future. We urge everyone to be on their highest alert, and ignore anything that sounds like screaming children being cluster bombed. ----- CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A judge ruled Thursday that a 15-year-old sophomore cannot form an anarchy club or wear T-shirts opposing the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan because it would disrupt school. Katie Sierra was suspended from Sissonville High School for three days for promoting the club. She was also told she could not wear T-shirts with messages such as: "When I saw the dead and dying Afghani children on TV, I felt a newly recovered sense of national security. God Bless America." In a complaint filed with her mother, Sierra argued her right to free speech was being denied. Circuit Court Judge James Stucky agreed that free speech is "sacred" but he found that such rights are "tempered by the limitations that they ... not disrupt the educational process." [Congress shall make NO LAW abridging the freedom of NON-DISRUPTIVE speech (Guffaw)] Sierra said she'll pursue the dispute. "I don't want war. I'm not for Afghanistan," Sierra said. "I think that what we're doing to them is just as bad as what they did to us, and I think it needs to be stopped." James Withrow, lawyer for the Kanawha County Board of Education, argued that an anarchy club was inappropriate because students "do not feel that their school is a safe place anymore." "Anarchy is the antithesis of what we believe should be in schools," Withrow said. Sierra's attorney, Roger Forman, said she is "being punished for expressing her opinion." -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Nov 2 22:29:03 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:29:03 -0800 Subject: Homeland Insecurity Message-ID: <200111030629.fA36T3G82256@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Homeland Insecurity A Sacramento journalist is taken into custody by police and forced to destroy photos by an over-zealous National Guardsman. Apparently, the terrorists are indeed causing instability. the article: http://www.newsreview.com/issues/sacto/2001-10-25/cover.asp "Most [revolutions] have been [ended] by a subversion of that liberty [they were] intended to establish." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1784. ME 4:218, Papers 7:106 From nobody at hyperreal.pl Fri Nov 2 14:56:20 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 2 Nov 2001 22:56:20 -0000 Subject: Napster execs needing culling References: <20011030113315.A434@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <9d6c9f355d32ea9aaef917cae49156c9@hyperreal.pl> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:29:58 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate wrote: >>On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: > >> Perhaps you should expand your analysis to non-excludable goods (those >> things which, like air, don't get used up). > >Air (O2) does get used up. Kill the algea and the trees and see how long >you can breath. Great idea! I have a few trees in my garden that produce copious O2! I'll Fed-Ex an invoice to Hillary Rosen immediately for all the air he's using up! Hey I just 'farm' the air, I don't ask anyone to breath it! Once I factor in the rosebush and all the grass, I may have quite an enterprise going. Dogbert. From claudio.vani at jumpy.it Fri Nov 2 14:42:45 2001 From: claudio.vani at jumpy.it (Claudio V.) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:42:45 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dear I ask you informations!!! I want buy an tv card for my pc!!! What card i must buy for look tele+ on my pc? Where i found the software for look tele+? I'm sorry for my english!!!! Thanks From juicy at melontraffickers.com Sat Nov 3 00:00:19 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:00:19 -0800 Subject: Life imitates bad S/F In-Reply-To: <82D28F2C-CE32-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: Tim May wrote: >A report on this "strange coincidence" is at >http://www.marsearthconnection.com/attack3a.html#foundation > >Color me skeptical, though, as there is nothing particularly odd about >"the foundation" being the name of a group. The U.S. media translation >into "The Base" is just a variant of "The Foundation." One might as well >say that the translation of "The Ford Foundation" into Arabic suggests >Bin Laden is somehow connected with Ford..maybe this is why the >Brimstone tires explode? > >(Other etymological swirls: Foundation, founder, fund, base, basement, >grundlagen/ground, fundament (ass, too, as in "bottom")/fundamental, >basis, basic, a base observation, etc.--all are related to the concept >of "lowest level" or "basis" or "bottom"; the Indo-European words >obviously come from a "basis" or "foundation" or "fundamental" (fund, >fountain, etc.) in a mix of Proto-Indo-European roots. Arabic is a >Semitic language, like Hebrew, and so "Qaeda" has no particular obvious >connection to foundation/fundament/base.) > >"Foundations of Something" = "Grundlagen der...." = "Groundwork ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ >for ... = "The Basics of ...." > > Eureka!!! In the Dune Trilogy, the leader of the Desert Warrior People was a foreign prince in exile fighting to free his adopted land from the clutches of an Evil Empire. He took the name Usul (the base of the pillar) as his secret name within the tribe. After driving out the invaders, he took his army out on Jihad to conquer the rest of the universe. The book's supposed to be based on the exploits of Lawrence of Arabia, with many Arabic nouns and verbs, but The Great Game fits the mold just as well. http://www.jitterbug.com/origins/dune.html Closer to home: CMDR. BEN SISKO of DS9: "Starfleet Command seems to be a little jumpy since the Dominion attack on HQ. I guess they're accustomed to sitting behind their desks, not hiding under them. I hope they don't make any rash decisions..." Any inferences are strictly in the eye of the beholder... On a lighter note: Andrea Roth, telepath Talia Winters of Babylon 5 fame, is to become an anchor for CNN. (or has already, I don't keep track of these things) The PsiCorps getting into bed with CNN? Where's the outrage? http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000007.html When they catch Bin Laden do you think they will show off his book collection next to his gun collection, like they do with 'lone gunmen' and 'dangerous militia terrorists'? I wonder how many copies of Catcher in the Rye he owns? From blancw at cnw.com Sat Nov 3 01:05:37 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:05:37 -0800 Subject: Life imitates bad S/F In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From the Melon: :Closer to home: : : CMDR. BEN SISKO of DS9: : "Starfleet Command seems to be a little jumpy since the Dominion : attack on HQ. I guess they're accustomed to sitting behind their : desks, not hiding under them. I hope they don't make any rash : decisions..." . . . . . . . . . . An adjacent note: >From the Israeli Insider - http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0131.htm Israeli police advising U.S. counterparts in anti-terrorism techniques "Eighteen senior Israeli Police officers visited Palm Beach, Florida, this week as part of a 10-day educational seminar sponsored by the American Jewish Committee. The original purpose of the trip was to instruct the Israeli policemen in American law enforcement tactics. But in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington, the Israelis were called upon to give their American counterparts tips on handling terrorism." --- " 'Just walk with your eyes open and your mind working and take into consideration that everything, everything can be hazardous to your health,' Police Lt. Col. Danny Kuffler said." Of course, now in the US you also have to take into consideration that all those "nervous people" and those patrols anywhere, everywhere can be hazardous to your health. .. Blanc From nobody at hyperreal.pl Fri Nov 2 19:07:36 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 3 Nov 2001 03:07:36 -0000 Subject: Warning everything you do on your computer is being logged [3G9MV] Message-ID: <800c650e4c19fc6793281f3342c16294@hyperreal.pl> Woah! Actual cypherpunks related SPAM!!! SHOCK!!! HORROR!!! A MILD TINGLY SENSATION ON THE BACK OF THE NECK!!! Haven't spammers yet figured out we can identify spam by a random alphanumeric string at the end of the subject line? PS. Is there an easy way to stop windoze from adding a shortcut to the recently used documents list (%Win9x%recent) when I open a file from an encrypted partition/disk? >Subject: Warning everything you do on your computer is being logged [3G9MV] >From: nick4rE at cleandrive.net >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:38:16 -0800 (PST) >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > >Every move you make on your computer is being logged. From the >Internet sites you visit, to the documents you open... you are >being tracked. Even if you attempt to delete these tracks, Windows >retains secret log files. Deleting Internet Caches and >searching for history files would take hours of work manually. Clean >Drive deletes all these items from your >computer... automatically, as often as you like! > >Cleandrive the most effective, user friendly, cost efficient way to >wipe your harddrive clean of all logs that your computer >records while you surf the web. > >No more worring about what people will see on your computer. > >Goto this url to download http://www.cleandrive.net?rev=fucking_spammers From jokes at freeall.com Sat Nov 3 03:08:11 2001 From: jokes at freeall.com (Free4all Jokes) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 03:08:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joke of the Day! From Free4all.com Message-ID: <20011103110811.31838.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- CLICK HERE FOR THOUSANDS OF JOKES OR TO SUBSCRIBE TO JOKE OF THE DAY --------------------------------- If you do not wish to receive this mail please unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to the unsubscribe address. Your unsubscribe address: jokes-unsubscribe-cypherpunks=toad.com at boss.free4all.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume on Yahoo! Careers. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 972 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tekelili at pit.shub-niggurath.org Fri Nov 2 20:37:38 2001 From: tekelili at pit.shub-niggurath.org (tekelili at pit.shub-niggurath.org) Date: 3 Nov 2001 04:37:38 -0000 Subject: Security & Personal Communications Message-ID: Jim Choate pointed out: > Receiving a ZixMail message is simple: You get a regular e-mail message in which there is a link to a secure (SSL) web page. From there, if you've never used ZixMail before, you set up a key for yourself by adding your e-mail address and a password to the database. (Any e-mail address will do, but be aware that your "key" will be linked to that particular e-mail address from now on � you can't use another e-mail address for sending or receiving ZixMail without going through this setup again.) > (Get this:) > ZixIt quietly generates a key for you and stores it on their server for future use. > (Both halves? Zap. End program.) > Now you can go read and respond to the encrypted e-mail from your friend or colleague at the ZixMail web site. That e-mail can be responded to, back and forth, for an unlimited period of time � you cannot, however, generate a new piece of e-mail (unrelated, to another person) unless you download the software and run it yourself. > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Nov 3 06:42:47 2001 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 06:42:47 -0800 Subject: WEIGHT LOSS -JJQM Message-ID: <200111031442.GAA19575@ecotone.toad.com> INCREDIBLE WEIGHT LOSS PROGRAM THAT REALLY WORKS!!!!! NO PILLS, NO EXERCISING, NO SURGERY DONT CHANGE YOUR DIET AND LOSE WEIGHT GUARANTEED ITS SIMPLE, ITS EASY AND IT ALMOST FREE! YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.........................BUT THE WEIGHT! 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From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 06:10:03 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 08:10:03 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - FBI raids Trenton, N.J., apartment - November 2, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE3FABB.94F6E2D2@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/02/inv.nj.raid/ -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 06:21:58 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 08:21:58 -0600 Subject: WHDH-TV - Channel 7 - Boston - New England News - FBI searches for Ryder rental truck carrying suspicious cargo Message-ID: <3BE3FD86.8F5EDB11@ssz.com> http://www.whdh.com/news/local1.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pjoiarzabal at hotmail.com Sat Nov 3 06:38:59 2001 From: pjoiarzabal at hotmail.com (Pedro J. Oiarzabal) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:38:59 -0500 Subject: Basque-American code-talkers Message-ID: Dear Sir/Madam, I am a PhD student at the Center for Basque Studies, University of Nevada,Reno. At the moment I am researching the participation of Basque-Americans in WWII and The Korean War. In particular, I am interested in the so-called Basque code-talkers or the use of the Basque language in intelligence/communication services (Signal Corps Unit, since 1942, in San Diego or San Francisco communication centers during the Pacific Campaign). Also, I am interested in contacting WWII or The Korean War veterans or relatives, which could have been involved in the aforementioned service. I have not found any substantial information on the matter and that is the reason I am contacting you. I would appreciate if you could help me in the research -- through the publication of this notice in your website and/or newsletter, if possible Thank you, Yours sincerely, Pedro J. Oiarzabal Center for Basque Studies University of Nevada, Reno NV 89557 pjo at unr.edu http://basquestudies.unr.edu Intelligence Forum (http://www.intelforum.org) is sponsored by Intelligence and National Security, a Frank Cass journal (http://www.frankcass.com/jnls/ins.htm) From PaulMerrill at acm.org Sat Nov 3 06:52:22 2001 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H Merrill) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:52:22 -0500 Subject: American Schools Need Flattening Too References: <200111030606.fA366B810515@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <3BE404A6.EE8F950@ACM.Org> One must always be careful to blame the right entities. The schools made a rule and the judge made it law. CONGRESS wasn't involved - this time. PHM Eric Cordian wrote: > > SNIP> > Circuit Court Judge James Stucky agreed that free speech is "sacred" but > he found that such rights are "tempered by the limitations that they ... > not disrupt the educational process." > > [Congress shall make NO LAW abridging the freedom of NON-DISRUPTIVE > speech (Guffaw)] > SNIP> Eric Michael Cordian 0+ > O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" -- Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP PaulMerrill at ACM.Org [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/x-pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s] From jya at pipeline.com Sat Nov 3 10:09:23 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 10:09:23 -0800 Subject: Basque Code Talkers Message-ID: <200111031515.KAA12422@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> >From Intel Forum mail list: From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 08:29:36 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:29:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Rubber hose attack (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:45:26 -0700 From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com To: JohnE37179 at aol.com Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com, Jason.Gruber at btinternet.com, JohnE37179 at aol.com, rick_smith at securecomputing.com, vertigo at panix.com Subject: Re: Rubber hose attack the following from a thread on some of the fees related to fraud issues at http://lists.commerce.net/archives/internet-payments/200110/maillist.html specifically from a thread on Visa/MasterCard Antitrust Comments. Here's an interesting quote taken directly from Judge Barbara Nelson's decision (the full text of the decision is available at: ): "Defendants' ability to price discriminate also illustrates their market power. Both Visa and MasterCard charge differing interchange fees based, in part, on the degree to which a given merchant category needs to accept general purpose cards. Transactions with catalog and Internet merchants, for example, which rely almost completely on general purpose cards, have higher interchange fees than 'brick and mortar' merchants. Defendants rationalize this difference by pointing to increased fraud in these merchant categories, but this explanation is belied by the fact that the Internet merchant, not Visa/MasterCard or their member banks, bears virtually all the risk of loss from fraudulent transactions. Even today, Amazon's fraud rate is lower than mail-order companies, yet it is charged (indirectly, through the merchant discount) the same interchange fee as these mail order companies. The reality is that Visa and MasterCard are able to charge substantially different prices for those hundreds of thousands of merchants who must take credit cards at any price because their customers insist on using those cards." --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 08:30:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:30:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Rubber hose attack (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:26:28 EST From: JohnE37179 at aol.com To: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com, JohnE37179 at aol.com Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com, Jason.Gruber at btinternet.com, rick_smith at securecomputing.com, vertigo at panix.com Subject: Re: Rubber hose attack In a message dated 11/2/01 8:46:25 PM, lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com writes: << the following from a thread on some of the fees related to fraud issues at >> Again, this is only a very small part of the problem. The Inspector General's office reports that the average identity fraud in the Social Security Administration costs over $100,000. Texas Medicaid loses approximately 25% of its $4 billion budget to fraud. The ABA reports that the average cost of each credit card fraud for the issuer exceeds $3500. Each incident of identity fraud in recruiting costs DOD over $500,000. John Ellingson CEO Edentification, Inc. 608.833.6261 ||||# |||||| |||||| --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 08:30:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:30:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Proving security protocols (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:15:47 +1300 (NZDT) From: Peter Gutmann To: bmukherj at styx.uwaterloo.ca, cryptography at wasabisystems.com, rick_smith at securecomputing.com Subject: Re: Proving security protocols Rick Smith at Secure Computing writes: >At 09:00 AM 11/1/2001, Roop Mukherjee wrote: >>Can someone offer some criticism of the practice formal verification in >>general ? >Okay, I'll grab this hot potato. I may as well speak up as well then... I spent most of a chapter of my thesis looking at formal security verification in fairly exhaustive detail (if I missed anything I'm sure I'll hear about it soon :-). You can get it as http://www.cryptoapps.com/~peter/04_verif_techniques.pdf. The conclusion is that there are more effective ways to spend your time and money, but for the full story I'd recommend you read the above document. Peter. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From mlsxhp at citiz.net Sat Nov 3 10:38:58 2001 From: mlsxhp at citiz.net (mlsxhp at citiz.net) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:38:58 Subject: Home Computer Worker Message-ID: <200111030239.SAA02897@toad.com> Would you like to work at home ? Home Computer Worker process orders from your own home! All you need is a PC, Email, and quality printer!Email hmwks6 at yahoo.com with 'more info'' in subject line for more information This is a one time mailing. To be removed, reply to mlsxhp at citiz.net with REMOVE in the subject line. ____________________________________________________________ This message has been sent with an unregistered copy of HotCast Mass E-Mailer. < < This notice doesn't appear on the registered version > > From piolenc at mozcom.com Fri Nov 2 19:05:16 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 11:05:16 +0800 Subject: Using Thermite to Drop Suspension Bridges...and U.S. plansto References: <200111021920.fA2JKGU62869@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3BE35EEC.C5F8BFB7@mozcom.com> I would be interested to see that formula. I thought I knew them all, but all the thermite formulas I know require at least a two-stage initiator or a direct blowtorch flame. Also, the formulas I've seen prescribe much larger particle sizes than the colloidal range used in pigments, to keep reaction rates reasonable. Marc de Piolenc keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > > There are various formulations for thermite. The one I like best uses barium peroxide, sulphur and very finely divided aluminum (paint pigment works great). From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 09:58:50 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:58:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Rubber hose attack (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:51:10 -0700 From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com To: JohnE37179 at aol.com Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com, Jason.Gruber at btinternet.com, JohnE37179 at aol.com, rick_smith at securecomputing.com, vertigo at panix.com Subject: Re: Rubber hose attack i believe i said that ROI represented the total cost of the program to eliminate some fraud compared to the total amount of fraud. in the credit card scenerio it isn't enuf to know the cost per event. assuming that adding chips to those payment cards is a solution. in there US there are something less than a billion new cards sent out each year ... and adding a chip could cost on the order of $25 each. Just for the chips (ignoring for the moment the issue of reader provisioning) ... that cost might be somewhere in the $15b to $20b per annum range. There would have to be a huge number of $3500 per fraud events eliminated by a comprehensive chip program to justify it. so as referenced in the previous postings .... advances in technology can reduce the cost of dealing with fraud (in the chip card case ... it would be nice to reduce it from $20b/annum to maybe under $1b/annum; say a combination of significantly reduced chip costs as well as the number of new sent out each year) while at the same time increasing the amount of fraud (criminals find it easier to counterfiet existing cards increasing the amount of traud that happens). However, generically (except for some specific exceptions), the majority of fraud has tended to be insider fraud. Just improving things with strong authentication &/or identification doesn't directly address insider fraud, significant audit, command & control, and compensating procedures are needed to be in place to address significant amounts of insider fraud (who, effectively by definition, have already been authenticated and identified). JohnE37179 at aol.com on 11/02/2001 08:26 pm wrote Again, this is only a very small part of the problem. The Inspector General's office reports that the average identity fraud in the Social Security Administration costs over $100,000. Texas Medicaid loses approximately 25% of its $4 billion budget to fraud. The ABA reports that the average cost of each credit card fraud for the issuer exceeds $3500. Each incident of identity fraud in recruiting costs DOD over $500,000. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 3 10:51:29 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 12:51:29 -0600 Subject: MATT DRUDGE // DRUDGE REPORT 2001 - Delta Force gets bloody nose, intensity scares the crap out of everybody... Message-ID: <3BE43CB1.8A264B8A@ssz.com> http://www.drudgereport.com/flash33.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sat Nov 3 10:20:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:20:50 -0500 Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 Military Bars Green Party Leader from Flying posted by declan on Saturday November 03, @12:36PM from the airports-are-now-a-no-speech-zone dept. As one of the U.S. Green Party's top officials, Nancy Oden is used to controversy. But Oden never expected to be hassled by National Guard troops at her hometown airport of Bangor, Maine on Thursday and barred from flying out of it. She thinks it's because of a Green Party statement she co-authored that ran in the local newspaper. The statement calls for universal health care, limitations on free trade, and a stop to "U.S. military incursions" including the bombing of Afghanistan. (The Green Party has labeled the U.S. military action an act of "state terrorism.") Oden's unsuccessful attempt to fly to Chicago for a Green Party national meeting follows a Philadelphia man's unpleasant experience after reading the wrong book at an airport, a California journalist's headaches for daring to take photos inside an airport, and the arrest of another man in Germany for bringing politically-unacceptable reading material to an airport. Also see Indymedia coverage of Oden's experience; the transcript of our interview with her from her home in Jonesboro, Maine is below. --- Interview of Nancy Oden by Declan McCullagh November 3, 2001 (Ed. Note: Nancy Oden is a top U.S. Green Party official and a member of the party's coordinating committee. An organic farmer, peace activist, and all-around firebrand, she lives in Jonesboro, Maine.) _________________________________________________________________ "Just a few weeks ago I had a piece in the Bangor paper. It's on our website, greenparty.org... I submitted it under my name alone. It's a fairly radical piece; that's what I do. I'm a political and environmental activist. "I walked into the Bangor airport. What I saw was National Guard folks all over carrying machine guns... The atmosphere was very tense... This was Thursday... I went over to the American Airlines ticket counter way down at the end. Nobody else was there, except the clerk. I gave him my name. He didn't even ask for photo ID. It was almost like they were expecting me. He put it into the computer. He stayed on the computer a long time, like 10 minutes. "He put an S on the boarding pass, for search. He said, 'You've been picked for having your bag searched.' ... I said to him, 'This wasn't random, was it?' He said, 'No you were in there to be searched, no matter what.' I went over to baggage to put my bags through the X-ray and then went into the boarding area. "There was this National Guard guy there. He yells over at me, so everyone can hear, 'Bring your bags over here.' You know how they are when they're all puffed up with themselves. He said, 'Hurry up,' so I slowed down some more. "I put my bags on the table. The two women employees were standing there. [I tried to help them with a stuck zipper.] He grabbed my left arm, he started yelling in my face, 'Don't you know what happened? Sep. 11, don't you know thousands of people died?' I said, 'You can't do that.' He went to grab my arm, and I said, 'Don't touch me.' I saw an older airline guy shake his head, 'No,' and he backed off. "That insulted his little manhood. He could not force me to listen to his idiot ideas on Sep. 11, whatever it was he wanted to say. So he was angry. I hadn't done anything except pull away from him... I think he was trying to provoke me. They did the wand thing, they were done, and I heard him say real soft, 'Don't let her on the plane,' like he was talking to himself. "Then I go to get on the plane since we're all done and everything, and the American Airlines ticket guy says,' You can't get on the plane.' I say, 'Why not?' ... He says, 'Because this guy says you didn't cooperate with the search.' ... I said, 'Didn't you see him grab my arm?' He said, 'No, your back was to me.' "He said, 'Maybe we can get you on the 4:00 plane, it's the last one today.' I felt, okay, let's put up with this aggravation now and I'll go to Chicago and we'll see what we can do... Then this little guard guy, it wasn't enough to stop me, wasn't done with me. He said, 'Come with me.' I followed very slowly, I sat down for a while. I said I'm carrying these bags; I need a rest... It's called passive resistance. "He went and found the airport police to come and talk with me. He went and got six other National Guard guys and they all approached me. Here are these six untrained, ignorant, don't-know-how-to-deal-with-the-public, machine-gun-armed young guys in their camouflage suits with their military gear hanging off of it. "I looked up and started laughing, 'Is all this for me, guys? What is this about?' There was this big burly guy, he was in front. He said, 'You didn't cooperate with the search.' ... I said what he did was grabbed my arm, and I backed away... He said he only hit your arm. I said even if that's all he did, he's not allowed to do that. He can't hit my arm and demand I listen to him. "They had the airport policeman tell me, 'You're not flying out of this airport today.' ... Of course I had cooperated; why do I care if they search my bags? ... What I didn't like was being singled out because of my political views. They couldn't arrest me because there was no reason for that. They had people who saw there was nothing to arrest me for. They wanted to get back at me somehow because I was not a subservient female, because I questioned their manhood. "I went to the American Airlines guy and said, 'Is this just today?' He said, 'I don't know.' One clerk said, 'You could drive to Boston [five hours away] and see if you can get out of there.' "I never made it out of Bangor. I had to turn around and drive 100 miles back home... The fact that they gave the other airlines my name... They told me they did that... That's incredible." ### ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 13:28:51 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:28:51 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 11:06 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- > > From: Declan McCullagh > Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying > To: politech at politechbot.com > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:20:50 -0500 > > http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 > > Military Bars Green Party Leader from Flying > posted by declan on Saturday November 03, @12:36PM > from the airports-are-now-a-no-speech-zone dept. > > As one of the U.S. Green Party's top officials, Nancy Oden is > used to controversy. But Oden never expected to be hassled by > National > Guard troops at her hometown airport of Bangor, Maine on Thursday and > barred from flying out of it. She thinks it's because of a Green > Party > statement she co-authored that ran in the local newspaper. The > statement calls for universal health care, limitations on free trade, > and a stop to "U.S. military incursions" including the bombing of > Afghanistan. (The Green Party has labeled the U.S. military action an > act of "state terrorism.") What else is expected in a police state? The soldiers say who can travel, and where. Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. --Tim May From info at ironing-board-covers.co.uk Sat Nov 3 05:32:04 2001 From: info at ironing-board-covers.co.uk (Look At This) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:32:04 -0000 Subject: Are YOU looking for a new website, to develop an existing website, for cheaper hosting or domain names? 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From declan at well.com Sat Nov 3 11:06:34 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:06:34 -0500 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 3 12:28:47 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:28:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: Proving security protocols (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 14:15:33 -0500 From: "Steven M. Bellovin" To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Re: Proving security protocols Also see the National Research Council report "Trust in Cyberspace" (I served on that committee). The section on formal methods can be found at http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/trust/trust-3.htm#Page 95 (yes, there's a blank in the URL...) --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb Full text of "Firewalls" book now at http://www.wilyhacker.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From alex968888 at seed.net.tw Fri Nov 2 23:33:44 2001 From: alex968888 at seed.net.tw (ALEX) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:33:44 +0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <014b01c16439$e3073b60$0100a8c0@1> 網站剛推出，內容增設中... 免費軟體下載、理財討論、免費留言版 專屬聊天室、硬體討論、網站登錄、 中古買賣登錄 免費留言版、免費聊天室、免費理財諮詢、國外內即時股價、免費個人數位化憑證申請、 免費虛擬伺服器，自己開店當老闆，輕鬆又自在！！ 不景氣中另一種收入的來源.... 本站一律免費，不要懷疑！！ 太多好咚咚講不完...... 訂閱/取消電子報 　 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 24hlogo.gif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 16856 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ronald.hugh at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 3 16:29:45 2001 From: ronald.hugh at ntlworld.com (phillip hugh) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:29:45 Subject: Proven work at home system that GENERATES FREE LEADS Message-ID: <200111031520.HAA19764@ecotone.toad.com> PROVEN Work at Home System that GENERATES FREE LEADS! Hi, My name is (PHILLIP HUGH). I am an ordinary man living in the UK who as learned how to make a living on the Internet working from home. I am willing to teach you to do the same, in simple easy to understand lessons so you can be successful to. I will work with you and teach you everything I know for FREE! This is an international business and everyone is welcome, it doesn't matter who you are or where you're from, anyone can do this. You don't have to be a computer whiz or genius to learn to earn on the Internet. 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From april691 at swan.ac.uk Sat Nov 3 14:53:56 2001 From: april691 at swan.ac.uk (april691 at swan.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:53:56 -0500 Subject: Hey Mike quiutd Message-ID: <200111032253.fA3MruW15474@ns2.westnetstorage.com> Hey Mike I just got in I will give you a buzz in an hour or so From tammy691 at swan.ac.uk Sat Nov 3 14:55:17 2001 From: tammy691 at swan.ac.uk (tammy691 at swan.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:55:17 -0500 Subject: Hey Mike gnuisc Message-ID: <200111032255.fA3MtHW15754@ns2.westnetstorage.com> Hey Mike I just got in I will give you a buzz in an hour or so From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 3 16:39:40 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 18:39:40 -0600 Subject: The Sunday Times: Terrorism - Revealed - the bloody pages of Al-Qaeda's killing manual Message-ID: <3BE48E4C.86B0E800@ssz.com> http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/04/stiusausa02024.html? -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 18:43:41 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:43:41 -0800 Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 06:10 PM, Yeoh Yiu wrote: > Declan McCullagh writes: > >> Here's the explanation: >> http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47510,00.html >> >> -Declan > > 'The person who typed it just named it that' > > Yeah, that's an explanation. > But this is too trivial a metter to care about. > > YY > 1. If it's so trivial, why add your even _more_ trivial comment? 2. The "Skyfall" item is dated 11 October. So why are you commenting on it several weeks later? 3. Are you retarded? --Tim May "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -- Nietzsche From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 3 19:02:34 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 19:02:34 -0800 Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <20011103132050.A27908@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011103131409.038ad260@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:20 PM 11/3/2001 -0500, you wrote: >http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 > > Military Bars Green Party Leader from Flying > posted by declan on Saturday November 03, @12:36PM > from the airports-are-now-a-no-speech-zone dept. If the information provided in the article and your interview is reasonably accurate I suggest the Green Party, which is fairly popular in Maine, and others who oppose this sort of McCarthyesque law enforcement take direct action against them. By that I mean they identify the "thugs", including towns and photos, and invite the opposition to shun them in every legal way possible (e.g., denying them service at restaurants, shops, service stations, etc.) steve From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com Sat Nov 3 19:23:37 2001 From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:23:37 -0800 Subject: The Sunday Times: Terrorism - Revealed - the bloody pages of Message-ID: <200111040323.fA43NbN78722@mailserver1.hushmail.com> >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/04/stiusausa02024.html > >The sophistication of some parts of the manual has alarmed intelligence agencies, which have asked counter-terrorism experts given access to the document not to discuss or release key elements, particularly on bioterrorism. We were forced into limited self-publication when none of the major media outlets would handle it. I guess some properties are just too hot. We find the praise being heaped by these agencies gratifying. It has created a broader market for what we thought would be a niche property. Announcements to follow. obl From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 19:42:58 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:42:58 -0800 Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011103131409.038ad260@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <0A4AB32A-D0D6-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 07:02 PM, Steve Schear wrote: > At 01:20 PM 11/3/2001 -0500, you wrote: > > >> http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 >> >> Military Bars Green Party Leader from Flying >> posted by declan on Saturday November 03, @12:36PM >> from the airports-are-now-a-no-speech-zone dept. > > If the information provided in the article and your interview is > reasonably accurate I suggest the Green Party, which is fairly popular > in Maine, and others who oppose this sort of McCarthyesque law > enforcement take direct action against them. By that I mean they > identify the "thugs", including towns and photos, and invite the > opposition to shun them in every legal way possible (e.g., denying them > service at restaurants, shops, service stations, etc.) > This terrible situation shows what happens when the Government--cops, soldiers, agencies--have control over who is allowed to fly. In the older system, general security was NOT tied to ID. No ID, no tickets. The pressure exerted on this Green Party woman could not have been applied as easily. That this woman was obviously--if we are to believe what has been reported--singled out for harassment is a sign of what's to come. Consider the possibilities: -- people like Cypherpunks put on a "watch list" and similarly harassed and ultimately blacklisted -- journalists whose very jobs depend on airline travel may find themselves less willing to criticize government, lest they be added to the blacklist. -- any person on the outs with government may find himself added to the blacklist It really is no business of government to know the identities of those whose bags/etc. they are checking. Having government able to single out some travellers for special processing is a recipe for this kind of mischief. BTW, the _wrong_ tack to take would be some argument about a "right to travel," some over-ruling of Southwest's or United's right to pick its customers as it wishes. The preferred approach should be to have no ID at the _security_ checkpoint and to not have any laws requiring ID tied to tickets. In other words, the situation as of a few years ago. Then that Green woman would a) not have been stopped in the first place, and b) would have been able to hop any other flight without anyone being the wiser. There is no particular reason to believe that having the guys with M-16s know the True Name of the person whose bag they are checking will improve security in any way. --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 19:49:48 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:49:48 -0800 Subject: The Sunday Times: Terrorism - Revealed - the bloody pages of In-Reply-To: <200111040323.fA43NbN78722@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 07:23 PM, osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com wrote: >> http://www.sunday- >> times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/04/stiusausa02024.html >> >> The sophistication of some parts of the manual has alarmed >> intelligence agencies, which have asked counter-terrorism experts >> given access to the document not to discuss or release key elements, >> particularly on bioterrorism. > > We were forced into limited self-publication when none of the major > media outlets would handle it. I guess some properties are just too > hot. We find the praise being heaped by these agencies gratifying. It > has created a broader market for what we thought would be a niche > property. Announcements to follow. > > obl > Osama, From the excerpts published in the Times, it looks like you plagiarized major sections of the U.S. Army manuals, e.g., the famed Improvised Munitions Handbook and various explosives manuals. You even copied the CD-ROM distribution system! Now if you set up a "College of the Arabian Lands" patterned after our own College of the Americas school, and you copy the curriculum of teaching methods for assassination, execution of villages, mining of harbors, and using shaped charges to collapse suspension bridges, then I plan to report you to the RIAA! --Tim May "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 19:52:10 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:52:10 -0800 Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <0A4AB32A-D0D6-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <52A6CE39-D0D7-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 07:42 PM, Tim May wrote: > > In the older system, general security was NOT tied to ID. No ID, no > tickets. The pressure exerted on this Green Party woman could not have > been applied as easily. I didn't mean to say "No ID, no tickets." I meant to say that tickets were not tied to ID. Cash could be paid. (This doesn't mean inspections of bags aren't done, so the security issue is unchanged.) > --Tim May "That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau From squid at panix.com Sat Nov 3 18:10:51 2001 From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu) Date: 03 Nov 2001 21:10:51 -0500 Subject: FBI: More Attacks Soon In-Reply-To: <20011011180948.A9479@cluebot.com> References: <200110112021.f9BKLNH04289@smtp-out.mac.com> <20011011180948.A9479@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Declan McCullagh writes: > Here's the explanation: > http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47510,00.html > > -Declan 'The person who typed it just named it that' Yeah, that's an explanation. But this is too trivial a metter to care about. YY From Raymond at fbntech.com Sat Nov 3 21:47:33 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:47:33 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> On 3 Nov 2001, at 13:28, Tim May wrote: > What else is expected in a police state? > The soldiers say who can travel, and where. > Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. Tim, you are getting much too cynical! The current events are very much a knee-jerk reaction to threats many can't understand. The National Guardsman who played the boogieman is probably a local good old boy with absolutely no cross cultural experience who translates his fears into hate against any person who appears to be any threat to what he thinks is important. After December 7th 1941 the USA and Canada interned all residents of Japanese descent and confiscated their property. At the time it apparently was a good idea, today it appears very extreme. What is happening today is still very minor and very likely to go away as people realize the stupidity of their current fears. The airport paranoia is nothing new in a global sense, Americans have just not experienced it domestically. Amsterdam airport has many soldier looking fellows with their automatics level and their fingers on the trigger. In Singapore in 1980, the old airport, taking a photo would get you arrested. Much the same in Jakarta until they opened the new airport in the mid-80s. Same in India in the 1980s plus the metal detectors were so sensitive the iron in your blood set them off and everyone was patted down. I have many times experienced being paraded, through a gauntlet of armed guards, on the tarmac beside the plane to identify my baggage before it was loaded on the plane and I was allowed to board. Talking about rude experiences, try arriving at a US west coast airport from southeast Asia with a Thai stamp in your passport and then telling immigration your occupation is a salesman. Off you go for a detailed search where you must rationalize your desire to visit the great nation of the US of A. In 1984 at Dehra Dun airport, Uttar Pradesh India, the airport terminal was a tent. I knew I shouldn't take a photo but attempted anyway. The armed soldiers were there before I could get a shot off and took my camera away - I got it back after the flight as you were not allowed to take photos from the airplane also. I was not to be trusted. As the armed soldiers were relieving me of my camera a business associate managed to take the same shot with a much smaller camera. A copy of this print can be viewed at http://www.fbntech.com/images/id-india.jpg In retrospect this seems pretty funny but at the time they were ready to cart me off to the local police station. If I wasn't a foreign visitor I would have been arrested. In the late 80s I was travelling through Jakarta airport with a stone axe I had purchased in carry-on baggage. It was an Irian Jayan looking piece which I figured I really needed. Airport security removed it from my baggage as they feared I may run amok. They returned the item upon landing in Singapore where it was considered very funny. Bottom line is muuch of what is going on now is a knee-jerk reaction to a threat which many can't understand. Over a short period of time most of the most of the excesses should be corrected as people have time to realize the extreme nature of many of the current restrictions. On a positive note the Anthrax attack through the postal system may bring some very positive changes as people seek to reduce the amount of mail they receive. If you are connected Email is faster and cheaper plus you can't get Anthrax through an Email message. If you use a Microsoft mail client you can still catch lots of shit but it really doesn't hurt you. On a the air travel side the current level of business travel really wasn't justified. Customers are always going to want to meet their vendors face to face but travel for business meetings within one business or government organization can easily be replaced with video conferencing. Actually why can't we change our government to where the assembly of elected respresentatives is virtual rather than physical. When you let them congregate in one place they detach themselves from any obligation to the voters and are open to lobbying efforts and making backroom deals. With today's technology they could be based within an office in their constiuency and linked to an assembly with video conferencing technology. An ideal system would make them available to their constiuents for a portion of the day and linked to an assembly on a video basis for a portion of the day. You could cut the corrupting influences and make the elected representative more responsive to the voters. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com "The Ultimate Enterprise Security Experts" http://www.fbn.bc.ca/sysecurt.html From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 3 22:10:27 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:10:27 -0800 Subject: Canadian telling me not to worry so much about Canada- and Singapore-style measures In-Reply-To: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 09:47 PM, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > Tim, you are getting much too cynical! The current events are very > much a knee-jerk reaction to threats many can't understand. The > National Guardsman who played the boogieman is probably a local > good old boy with absolutely no cross cultural experience who > translates his fears into hate against any person who appears to be > any threat to what he thinks is important. This is why we are supposed to be a nation of _laws_, not of _men_. It doesn't matter whether these soldiers are country bumpkins or not: the Constitution still applies. (Scholars may opine that Bangor International Airport has "invited" soldiers onto its property, blah blah, or that ordinary search and seizure provisions are waived, blah blah, but the fact is that soldiers are now frisking people without search warrants. At this rate, the entire Fourth will be mooted.) > > After December 7th 1941 the USA and Canada interned all > residents of Japanese descent and confiscated their property. At > the time it apparently was a good idea, today it appears very > extreme. What is happening today is still very minor and very likely > to go away as people realize the stupidity of their current fears. "At the time it apparently was a good idea"? You are hopeless. Every one of the guards, judges, and processing officials should have been tried for kidnapping and then hung by the neck until he was dead. (One reason I have been cynical dates back to 1969 when a teacher was piously explaining the Nuremberg precedent, that "just following orders" is no defense. I brought up the imprisonment of Japanese-ancestry and Italian-ancestry persons, without constitutional due process. My teacher just shrugged and said "We won the war, so it didn't apply to us.") I never understood why the survivors of the American concentration camps didn't track down their captors and quietly kill them during the 50s. > The airport paranoia is nothing new in a global sense, Americans > have just not experienced it domestically. Amsterdam airport has > many soldier looking fellows with their automatics level and their > fingers on the trigger. In Singapore in 1980, the old airport, taking > a photo would get you arrested. Much the same in Jakarta until > they opened the new airport in the mid-80s. Same in India in the > 1980s plus the metal detectors were so sensitive the iron in your > blood set them off and everyone was patted down. This nation is not one of those shitholes, a point you seem to be oblivious to. We are talking about the Constitution, not what is commonplace in ad hocracies like Canada or in police states like Singapore and Indonesia. --Tim May "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound" From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 00:12:53 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 22:12:53 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> References: <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103220204.02d67dd0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 09:47 PM 11/3/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >On 3 Nov 2001, at 13:28, Tim May wrote: > >> What else is expected in a police state? >> The soldiers say who can travel, and where. >> Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. > >Tim, you are getting much too cynical! That isn't the right word. Any reasonable person reading Declan's article would realize the dumb cunt brought it on herself by being a curmudgeon and a very uncooperative one at that. Wash your mind out with some soap, both of you. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 00:20:08 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 22:20:08 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 01:28 PM 11/3/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: >On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 11:06 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 >What else is expected in a police state? > >The soldiers say who can travel, and where. > >Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. You didn't really read the interview, did you? The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Even you wouldn't spit in the eye of a cop at your door and expect no action to be taken. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 00:22:55 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 22:22:55 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103222048.02d4f640@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:04 AM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Besides, if this guardsman was as naive as you say how did he know who >she was? As I understood it her name was on a list. ..."on a list." of people who purchased their tickets online. w00h00. >Think about that, on a list... *yawn* >You're an apologistic idiot. You resemble a latah and your CDR node munges From: headers in an obnoxious manner. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 01:07:36 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 23:07:36 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:32 AM 11/4/01 -0800, S a n d y wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> You didn't really read the interview, >> did you? >> >> The dumb cunt brought it on herself. > >Yeah, just like all those other rape victims... ....Read the article/interview. Every airline passenger is going through heightened security screening. Dig deeper, you'll find that all airline passengers who purchase tickets online get flagged for bag searches (discrimination by auto-selection). Were other green party members detained or singled out? No. Were other green party members denied air transport? No in both cases, else we would have heard about that by now too, right? One of the airport flunkies even says they'll try getting her on the 4 pm flight, she plays stick in the mud a bit more and gets herself bounced out of the airport, so yeah, go through the park naked at 2 AM, you have no grounds to object if approached by someone who is naked - what you do from there is on you. She was not denied right to travel (as Tim thought), she was free to get in her car and drive to another airport, to a private plane or even all the way to her destination if she wanted. She was denied the use of that particular mode of transport at that particular time, "we" cannot ride horses on the freeway either. Yes that is too a comparable example of denial of right to travel in the precise manner "we" want. A true equestrian would not have pissed the nasty guards off, I guess greens think they can act haughty and snub everyone with impunity - wrong answer (aka idealism = 0, reality = 1). Get a clue, S a n d y. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 01:09:05 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 23:09:05 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103220204.02d67dd0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103230749.02dbf470@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 02:33 AM 11/4/01 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: >Since when are we required to be "cooperative" with illegal searches? Why do you think it was an illegal search? >And what's with the "dumb cunt" bit? I calls 'em like I sees 'em, and boy, what she did was dumb. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 01:12:12 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 23:12:12 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103230923.02d686b0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:51 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >On 3 Nov 2001, at 22:20, Reese wrote: > >> The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Even you wouldn't spit in the >> eye of a cop at your door and expect no action to be taken. > >Yes, you are right, she was searching for attention but she received >more than she bargined for. Oh boo hoo hoo. I shed crocodile tears. Truly. >The point is how did the front line grunt know who to abuse? People flagged by the ticket agent, people who purchase tickets online. That's what got her flagged. Dig deeper, you are missing it. >Obviously there was a bit of a conspiracy >here, don't you think? Obviously. Carry on, you don't need me for this. Reese From Raymond at fbntech.com Sat Nov 3 23:12:53 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:12:53 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE479D0.17614.14C2077F@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:04, Jim Choate wrote: > And you're naive. > It appeared extreme to a minority of people then. The fact it happened > once is enough to make sure it DOESN'T happen AGAIN, not even once is > acceptable. Unfortunately this isn't an isolated case. They are not > kicking kids out of school for wearing 'anarchy' t-shirts and wanting to > form an 'anarchy club' in school. Both acceptable behaviour in America > (spelled with a 'c', not a 'k'). > > Besides, if this guardsman was as naive as you say how did he know who she > was? As I understood it her name was on a list. > > Think about that, on a list... > > You're an apologistic idiot. You may be right, I may be naive and I may be an apologistic idiot. Your mention of the list and the guardsman being aware of this horrible threat coming through the airport were assumed but my thought was it was a local redneck or folks in a vigilante mood. It would appear this person was targeted. When such folks take actions like this there is a reaction, ie - the victim had it written up in a press release/article and the guardsman and airport appear pretty stupid. Hopefully the victim of this epsode, and others of similar episodes, will take legal action and sue. Hopefully the American system will retain this ability. I once lived in a society where everything I did was recorded. I was a foreigner and I expected it. I got picked up in a business related deal and the officers started the interrogation by telling me what they knew of my existence, they knew everything. My long work hours were interpretted as an attempt to cook the books. They knew every detail of my personal life. I was guilty because I was an eager beaver, had to be.... In western liberal democracies we believe we have lots of freedom. Cross the wrong people and your name is on a list. You are naive if you for any moment thought this was not the case. It isn't right but it is reality. Hopefully in the long run we are moving to a system which is more open and free. We aren't there yet, hopefully after the excesses of this current crack-down we will move on to a better status quo. The whims of society and government tend to oscillate in a sine wave manner, from one extreme to the other. The current trend is to a dark side, from a national government point of view. They are going to do a lot of stupid things which will take some time to correct. It is wrong and bad but I can't do much to stop it. I can call or write my local elected representitives but they are trendiods which go along with current trends. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbn.bc.ca History of a Telco, A Fairy Tale http://www.fbntech.con/telcohis.html From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 3 22:04:37 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:04:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > On 3 Nov 2001, at 13:28, Tim May wrote: > > > What else is expected in a police state? > > The soldiers say who can travel, and where. > > Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. > > Tim, you are getting much too cynical! And you're naive. > After December 7th 1941 the USA and Canada interned all > residents of Japanese descent and confiscated their property. At > the time it apparently was a good idea, today it appears very > extreme. It appeared extreme to a minority of people then. The fact it happened once is enough to make sure it DOESN'T happen AGAIN, not even once is acceptable. Unfortunately this isn't an isolated case. They are not kicking kids out of school for wearing 'anarchy' t-shirts and wanting to form an 'anarchy club' in school. Both acceptable behaviour in America (spelled with a 'c', not a 'k'). Besides, if this guardsman was as naive as you say how did he know who she was? As I understood it her name was on a list. Think about that, on a list... You're an apologistic idiot. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 02:05:14 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:05:14 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE49CBC.19366.154A772C@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103234758.02d6c870@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 01:41 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >On 3 Nov 2001, at 23:07, Reese wrote: > >> equestrian would not have pissed the nasty guards off, I guess greens >> think they can act haughty and snub everyone with impunity - wrong answer >> (aka idealism = 0, reality = 1). > >I don't really like the "greens" type of person as they tend to blame >every thing on me and my desire to be like an average person with >average consumption of our worldly resources but why exactly >should they be targeted for special treatment over other travellers >who may be more astute in voicing their beliefs? They weren't, except perhaps by me. Oden was first selected because of how her ticket was purchased, then singled out for special treatment because of how she acted in the airport. >The decision to permit travel should be a matter of policy and not No, you still don't get it. Try this: > So you're saying they made this quote up, IOW it is not > true that she is blacklisted for her political views? > > "An official told me that my name had been flagged in > the computer," a shaken Oden said. "I was targeted > because the Green Party USA opposes the bombing of > innocent civilians in Afghanistan." Dammit! No matter how hard I try to be quiet and lurk, the stupidity on these lists just forces me to decloak! Her name was flagged in the computer, which Ms. Ogen MISINTERPRETED as meaning it was because of her politics. The real story is that it was flagged, but not because of politics, but because she bought her ticket online. People who use Expedia, CheapTickets, LowestFare, Orbitz, and other rock-bottom and somewhat ANONYMOUS ticket services are having their tickets flagged for (S)earch much more frequently than people who use ticket agencies or buy their tickets direct from the airlines. Second, when law enforcement officials are fucking with your shit and tossing your car or your house, you do not interfere. If you feel the need to assist, with a stuck zipper on your l uggage, for example, you ask politely if you can help with that. You do not grab at it as if you were dealing with your clumsy spouse or child. Only a fucking stupid person, whose mind has been liquefied by the benefits of privilege would even remotely think that they could "show ass" in this sort of climate and get away with it. From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 02:11:41 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:11:41 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103230923.02d686b0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104000541.02d6cd70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 01:58 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >On 3 Nov 2001, at 23:12, Reese wrote: > >> Oh boo hoo hoo. I shed crocodile tears. Truly. >> >> People flagged by the ticket agent, people who purchase tickets online. >> That's what got her flagged. Dig deeper, you are missing it. > >> Obviously. Carry on, you don't need me for this. > >What am I missing here? Your earlier text, which give context to my responses. >Was the prospective passenger carrying >weapons or anything which could be judged as a weapon.? Was >the prospective passenger deemed a threat to any of the other >passengers or the completion of the flight to its destination? If the >answers to any of the above questions were yes then the person >should have been arrested, charged and dealt with in a court of law. >Otherwise the passenger should have been allowed on the flight >regardless of political belief or profile of ticket purchase. You still do not allow for attitude. "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." >The ticket purchaser has suffered discrimation Self-inflicted and self-aggravated. >If you start to agree to this type of decision you are no different than >the Muslims who claim all non-believers to be an enemy. "Us v Them" straw man. >Think about it! Smell what you shovel. Reese From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 3 22:13:14 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:13:14 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Serious charges dropped against firefighters arrested at WTC melee - November 3, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE4DC7A.5ADA6109@ssz.com> Good...now let them recover the bodies in a dignified (and timely) manner. http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/03/rec.attacks.wtc.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 3 22:15:17 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:15:17 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Preservationists collect 9/11 tapes, fliers, Web pages - November 3, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE4DCF5.8F22D5D4@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/03/rec.attacks.preservation.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 00:22:14 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:22:14 -0800 Subject: Canadian telling me not to worry so much about Canada- and Singapore-style measures In-Reply-To: References: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE48A10.22111.1501838C@localhost> On 3 Nov 2001, at 22:10, Tim May wrote: > This is why we are supposed to be a nation of _laws_, not of _men_. It > doesn't matter whether these soldiers are country bumpkins or not: the > Constitution still applies. (Scholars may opine that Bangor > International Airport has "invited" soldiers onto its property, blah > blah, or that ordinary search and seizure provisions are waived, blah > blah, but the fact is that soldiers are now frisking people without > search warrants. At this rate, the entire Fourth will be mooted.) What is happening now is wrong. I hope the lawyers get a hold of it and sue all involved and the elected officials which allowed it to happen are removed from office and also assume a financial liability. I would like to berate your country for allowing such country bumpkins into such positions but I note the bumpkins at the Vancouver BC airport were taking the pins out of Remembrance day poppies. > "At the time it apparently was a good idea"? It was a horrible idea but yet so very few realize the true magnitude of the darkness of this action. Kinda like going back to an era of witch hunts except there was no test. > You are hopeless. Every one of the guards, judges, and processing > officials should have been tried for kidnapping and then hung by the > neck until he was dead. Your views are a touch strong. I am disappointed you so quickly label me because my beliefs are less extreme than yours. Kinda puts you in the same category as the country bumpkin National Guardsman in Maine don't you think? > (One reason I have been cynical dates back to 1969 when a teacher was > piously explaining the Nuremberg precedent, that "just following orders" > is no defense. I brought up the imprisonment of Japanese-ancestry and > Italian-ancestry persons, without constitutional due process. My teacher > just shrugged and said "We won the war, so it didn't apply to us.") In 1969 I was too far gone on the hormones of youth and other distractions to notice much. By the early 70s the takeover of India by the British was my cause. The British were a bunch of bastards and they conquered a society for basically economic gain. I was wrong in being overly critical of such actions as they are just part of the evolution of man's society, one society is always overcoming another society. We can't feel guilt for the actions of previous generations long since passed away. Where do we draw the line? To me it is obvious Japanese North Americans should have been compensated for any loss of property or better yet it should not have happened. What about the evil deeds of the US government against the American Indians? Yes, the society of the day screwed those people out of their land. Should our guilt extend that far back or should we have a limitation on guilt similar to your suggestion of a 50 year rule on art pieces. > We are talking about the Constitution, not what is commonplace in ad > hocracies like Canada or in police states like Singapore and Indonesia. The interpretation of the American Constitution is very much based on current standards. There are some long term redeeming values but much is based on current standards. At one point in America the circulation of currency was restricted to keep the masses in their place. Look into the burned over region of New York. During Hoover's time in the FBI the Mafia was denied and homosexuals were persecuted and now we are told Hoover was most likely a homosexual. I don't see a great difference between America during Hoover's time and some of the Asian authoritarian governments of today. The point being most societies are in a constant state of change and hopefully the change is in a position direction. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Delivering on the policy of "Lowered Expectations" http://www.fbntech.com/service1.html From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 00:24:11 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:24:11 -0800 Subject: Metricom assets sold for $8.25 million Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104000325.032798b0@idiom.com> By the time this article got forwarded to me, the URL for the original article was gone, but the title's pretty indicative :-) www.metricom.com has a "goodbye" page, with pointers to the bankruptcy auction for interested bidders. A google search reveals that back in September, Metricom turned down Aerie's offer for $20M (oops), and also that Aerie had been planning to spend $3.5B to build a 20000 mile fiber backbone for the ISP they wanted to be. >From: "Steve Stroh" >To: "Dewayne Hendricks" >Subject: Metricom assets sold for $8.25 million >Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:36:19 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > > >Dewayne: > >What's not mentioned in this article: >* What Aerie bought was mostly intellectual property - the software and >designs for the radios, patents, etc. >* Unclear is if Aerie bought the existing inventory. Apparently there are >lots of radios already manufactured, but not deployed, sitting in storage. >* Metricom's WCS spectrum is not included in the sale to Aerie (apparently >the asset managers feel that it will fetch considerably as much as $50M - >sometime). Unlikely given AT&T Wireless Services' decision to junk their >Fixed Wireless System which will free up more WCS spectrum. >* None of the physical assets of the network are included in this sale, >including poletop radios, wired access points, network operation center, >etc. All of that was "abandoned in place" to free Metricom of the liability >of back rent, lease payments, and other liabilities. >* Rights Of Way were similarly abandoned... > >It'll be interesting to watch! For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ From measl at mfn.org Sat Nov 3 22:30:31 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:30:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: A reasonable editorial assessment of Afghanistan status. Message-ID: An amazing editorial piece, considering that it is the very first one I have seen that didn't have Shrub's balls slapping against the author's chin: http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/column.billpress/index.html WASHINGTON (Tribune Media Services) -- Almost two months into the war against terrorism -- and one month into the war against anthrax -- it's fair to ask: 'how are we doing?' The answer is: 'fabulous!' Just ask anyone in the White House. Thanks to Lloyd Grove of the Washington Post for assembling this verbal collage of praise issued by members of the Bush administration to each other. Let others play the blame game. They're busy playing the praise game, showering each other with compliments, not always well-deserved. Of course, the praise starts from the top. President Bush boasts: "I've put together a fabulous administration. I picked a great vice president in Dick Cheney." He's proud of his Treasury Department, too: "Secretary Paul O'Neill is doing a fabulous job." And he has no doubt we'll win the war: "I've got great confidence in the American military." In each case, the truth belies the praise. If the military's doing such a great job, why -- after three weeks of nonstop, intensive bombing of one of the poorest countries on earth, with no navy, no air force and only a ragtag band of soldiers using obsolete weapons -- is the Taliban still in power? Why do they still control every major city in Afghanistan? What's left to bomb? And why are Osama bin Laden's whereabouts still unknown? For that matter, if Dick Cheney's doing such a fabulous job, why are his whereabouts still unknown and why isn't he allowed back into his White House office? And is Paul O'Neill really doing such a fabulous job when the nation's suddenly in a recession? The president is also quick to stroke Secretary of State Colin Powell: "He's done a fabulous job of assembling a coalition of people from all around the world to fight terror." Nice words, but again, the reality falls short. Of the so-called coalition, only Britain is contributing man- and firepower. Saudi Arabia won't let us fly sorties from their soil. Egypt has refused to supply troops. And Pakistan, our most important ally in the region, is urging the United States to stop bombing. Except for England, for all practical purposes, we're fighting this war alone. Other Bush team leaders join in self-praise. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld brags: "We've done a pretty good job of being able to now function over that country from the air." Which is as meaningless as his assertion, on the second day of bombing, that we had "run out of targets." In three weeks, we have learned the same lesson Russia learned the hard way: Being able to fly military jets safely over Afghanistan is far from being able to dislodge Afghani fighters from their mountain strongholds. By the way, where are the massive defections of Taliban fighters we were told to expect once bombs started dropping? But it's not just the war against terrorism. On the home front too, fighting anthrax, administration members are lavish with praise. Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson gives kudos to the Centers for Disease Control: "They're doing a good job of identifying cases that might be anthrax." And White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card chimes in: "We have outstanding health care experts that understand this problem and are addressing it quickly." Tell that to postal workers, who were assured by the CDC there was no need to wear protective clothing or be tested against anthrax. That was before two mail carriers died from exposure to the disease. Completing the congratulatory circle, Card singles out his boss for praise: "He is in great shape. He's a very disciplined man. He gets up very early in the morning. He does his homework. And he works hard during the day. He exercises, and he sleeps well at night." So, there you have it. Things must be going well, because not even the Taliban can keep George Bush from his treadmill. Actually, there are disturbing signs that neither war is going well. The generals warn we may not be able to defeat the Taliban until November 2002. Secretary Rumsfeld recently said we may never catch Osama bin Laden. And neither the CDC, the FBI or the CIA have any idea where the anthrax-laden letters came from. Maybe the Bush administration would do a better job fighting both terrorists and anthrax if they weren't so busy patting each other on the back. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 00:33:07 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:33:07 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: Reese wrote: > You didn't really read the interview, > did you? > > The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Yeah, just like all those other rape victims... S a n d y From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 02:44:50 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:44:50 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE4A68A.20138.1570C2BE@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103234758.02d6c870@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE49CBC.19366.154A772C@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004043.02d67590@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 02:23 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >> The real story is that it was flagged, but not because of >> politics, but because she bought her ticket online. People >> who use Expedia, CheapTickets, LowestFare, Orbitz, and other >> rock-bottom and somewhat ANONYMOUS ticket services are having >> their tickets flagged for (S)earch much more frequently than >> people who use ticket agencies or buy their tickets direct >> from the airlines. > >I understand this. Point is traveller shouldn't be denied travel >unless there is something which dictates they are in some way a bad >person which at that point they should be arrested or advised to >remedy an ID problem. If a group was to persist in such behavior >they be open to a class action lawsuit. http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml In Godfrey's case I agree, but Oden brought it all on herself. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 02:49:33 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:49:33 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104000541.02d6cd70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004541.02d649e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 02:38 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:11, Reese wrote: > >> > >Maybe simple but a legal way of looking at it which must form the >basis of dealing with such situations Note that "legal" and "legitimate" are not fully synonymous. >> You still do not allow for attitude. "We reserve the right to refuse >> service to anyone." > >Attitude is a very scary principal to which base passage. If this is >truly the case I smell massive lawsuits down the road once the >perceived threat retreats. What is precedent and case history of the "We reserve the right..." signs in public establishments, restaurants for example? How about the "no shirts, no shoes, no service" signs, whether food is sold at the establishment or not? >> Self-inflicted and self-aggravated. > >The airline or airport authority would lose this one in a trial. They'll lose Godfrey, this one I doubt it. >> Smell what you shovel. > >All roses on this side. Sure. Reese From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 4 00:51:17 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:51:17 -0800 Subject: A reasonable editorial assessment of Afghanistan status. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BE49105.7556.125F8A6@localhost> -- > http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/column.billpress/ > index.html In each case, the truth belies the praise. If > the military's doing such a great job, why -- after three > weeks of nonstop, intensive bombing of one of the poorest > countries on earth, with no navy, no air force and only a > ragtag band of soldiers using obsolete weapons -- is the > Taliban still in power? In past wars, CNN has been rather accurately called "Communist News Network", but in this war they seem incapable of mentioning the fact that our armed forces frequently fuck up. When the airforce started blasting Taliban front line positions, the press's natural response was to interview the Northern Alliance commanders, who were watching the raids. The Northern alliance commanders all said that the targeting sucked, and had to be fixed, that the bombing was ineffectual, that the bombs were just rearranging the rocks, that it had to be done differently. It was very difficult to discern this thumbs down from the cnn network. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG SxRU3lHqgtYAV0RggQdcQczDfESW1m138LY24Kfn 4t7GYJnNJiF8/qHlhz4wEO/M1pCLlB3M2JNHJpkKn From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 00:51:31 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:51:31 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> On 3 Nov 2001, at 22:20, Reese wrote: > The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Even you wouldn't spit in the > eye of a cop at your door and expect no action to be taken. Yes, you are right, she was searching for attention but she received more than she bargined for. The point is how did the front line grunt know who to abuse? Obviously there was a bit of a conspiracy here, don't you think? Now this bitch may have deserved it but who is making the decision and what is the basis for that decision? It may appear deserved until you are the target, then your thoughts change a bit. Obviously you have never been a target before and been put thought the usual grinding. I don't like liberal tree hugger types and rarely feel for them but if they restrict her travel privilages what is to stop them from picking on you? You may think you are bullet proof but until you actually experience being a target it is difficult to understand the sense of violation one experiences when one is done over by a system. I kinda like a place where there is a rule of law and everything is totally predictable, something America appears to be moving away from at this moment. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Harnessing The Dynamics of The Internet http://www.fbntech.com From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 01:41:50 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:41:50 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <3BE49CBC.19366.154A772C@localhost> On 3 Nov 2001, at 23:07, Reese wrote: > equestrian would not have pissed the nasty guards off, I guess greens > think they can act haughty and snub everyone with impunity - wrong answer > (aka idealism = 0, reality = 1). I don't really like the "greens" type of person as they tend to blame every thing on me and my desire to be like an average person with average consumption of our worldly resources but why exactly should they be targeted for special treatment over other travellers who may be more astute in voicing their beliefs? The decision to permit travel should be a matter of policy and not determined by individuals based on their personal beliefs or attitudes. I have experienced this type of treatment in third-world countries where the person making the determination could be influenced by monetary issues. I have always visited places where the degree of hassle was determined by spiritual specifics, ie - religion. Ring a bell here? Green bad, Republican good, Christian good, Muslim bad?, or the other way round!! It would be very sad if America was to become this shallow! Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Offering PUP - Unbreakable Encryption Techology http://www.fbntech.com/pup.html From declan at well.com Sat Nov 3 22:49:49 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:49:49 -0500 Subject: A reasonable editorial assessment of Afghanistan status. In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 12:30:31AM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20011104014949.A20459@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 12:30:31AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > An amazing editorial piece, considering that it is the very first one I > have seen that didn't have Shrub's balls slapping against the author's > chin: > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/column.billpress/index.html That is true, but it is also predictable. Popular journalism follows cycles: Shock, horror, glorify the leader, ask when the bombing's going to start, demand to know when the bombing's going to end, and so on. If it weren't for the anthrax attack the media may not be as harsh on Bush, but because of the administration's apparent incompetence in that area, expect to see more of this soon. -Declan From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 01:58:20 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:58:20 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103230923.02d686b0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> On 3 Nov 2001, at 23:12, Reese wrote: > Oh boo hoo hoo. I shed crocodile tears. Truly. > > People flagged by the ticket agent, people who purchase tickets online. > That's what got her flagged. Dig deeper, you are missing it. > Obviously. Carry on, you don't need me for this. What am I missing here? Was the prospective passenger carrying weapons or anything which could be judged as a weapon.? Was the prospective passenger deemed a threat to any of the other passengers or the completion of the flight to its destination? If the answers to any of the above questions were yes then the person should have been arrested, charged and dealt with in a court of law. Otherwise the passenger should have been allowed on the flight regardless of political belief or profile of ticket purchase. The ticket purchaser has suffered discrimation and should be able to seek damages. Or, has ther hassling of citizens become a normal event? If you start to agree to this type of decision you are no different than the Muslims who claim all non-believers to be an enemy. Think about it! Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Offering PUP - Unbreakable Encryption Techology http://www.fbntech.com/pup.html From usanz11 at excite.com Sun Nov 4 00:04:07 2001 From: usanz11 at excite.com (usanz11 at excite.com) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 02:04:07 -0600 (GMT) Subject: Free Cell Phone Offer Message-ID: <200111040806.fA4869I08569@host3.yournethost.net> Greetings and blessings; On offer a FREE cell phone and software. No obligation, check it out. www.ausom.com A great opportunity to make meaningful partime inclme from the Internet. Take a look. www.ausom.com Easy Does It, tom From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 02:23:45 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 02:23:45 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103234758.02d6c870@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: <3BE49CBC.19366.154A772C@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE4A68A.20138.1570C2BE@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:05, Reese wrote: > The real story is that it was flagged, but not because of > politics, but because she bought her ticket online. People > who use Expedia, CheapTickets, LowestFare, Orbitz, and other > rock-bottom and somewhat ANONYMOUS ticket services are having > their tickets flagged for (S)earch much more frequently than > people who use ticket agencies or buy their tickets direct > from the airlines. I understand this. Point is traveller shouldn't be denied travel unless there is something which dictates they are in some way a bad person which at that point they should be arrested or advised to remedy an ID problem. If a group was to persist in such behavior they be open to a class action lawsuit. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Offering PUP - Unbreakable Encryption Techology http://www.fbntech.com/pup.html From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 00:33:42 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 02:33:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103220204.02d67dd0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > > At 09:47 PM 11/3/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > >On 3 Nov 2001, at 13:28, Tim May wrote: > > > >> What else is expected in a police state? > >> The soldiers say who can travel, and where. > >> Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. > > > >Tim, you are getting much too cynical! > > That isn't the right word. > > Any reasonable person reading Declan's article would realize the > dumb cunt brought it on herself by being a curmudgeon and a very > uncooperative one at that. > > Wash your mind out with some soap, both of you. > > Reese Since when are we required to be "cooperative" with illegal searches? And what's with the "dumb cunt" bit? That's not just idiotic, it's idiotic even for you. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 02:38:27 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 02:38:27 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104000541.02d6cd70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:11, Reese wrote: > Maybe simple but a legal way of looking at it which must form the basis of dealing with such situations > You still do not allow for attitude. "We reserve the right to refuse > service to anyone." Attitude is a very scary principal to which base passage. If this is truly the case I smell massive lawsuits down the road once the perceived threat retreats. > Self-inflicted and self-aggravated. The airline or airport authority would lose this one in a trial. > Smell what you shovel. All roses on this side. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Delivering on the policy of "Lowered Expectations" http://www.fbntech.com/service1.html From Raymond at fbntech.com Sun Nov 4 03:10:37 2001 From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:10:37 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004541.02d649e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:49, Reese wrote: > What is precedent and case history of the "We reserve the right..." > signs in public establishments, restaurants for example? How about > the "no shirts, no shoes, no service" signs, whether food is sold > at the establishment or not? You can deny services to people providing you have a consistent set of policies, ie - all folks are treated equally. How do you deny air travel to some but not all of a similar nature. I smell lawsuits once the paranoia is over with. > >> Self-inflicted and self-aggravated. > > > >The airline or airport authority would lose this one in a trial. > > They'll lose Godfrey, this one I doubt it. Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Delivering on the policy of "Lowered Expectations" http://www.fbntech.com/service1.html From lawyer at visahlb.com Sun Nov 4 03:14:47 2001 From: lawyer at visahlb.com (Lawyer) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:14:47 PST Subject: US VISAS / BUSINESS SEMINAR Message-ID: <1400$999219783670864$10$0@exploder4> SUBJECT: US VISAS / BUSINESS SEMINAR Телефон: 303-5420 (Москва) Не упустите эту возможность получения ответов на эти вопросы профессионалом в этих областях. Количество мест ограничено. "Морилак Адвокатская Фирма" США/Флорида Объявление. Г-н Морилак - деловой адвокат по имиграции и бизнесу (профессор делового менеджмента) будет в Москве с понедельника по среду для ответа на вопросы, которые вы можете иметь по созданию бизнеса в США, получению профессиональной визы или инвестиций в недвижимость США. Г-н Морилак проведет семинары в Понедельник, Вторник и Среду (ноябрь 5-7) с 9:00 до 11:00; с 15 до 17:00; с 20:00 до 22:00. Стоимость 45$ на человека. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7216 bytes Desc: not available URL: From saeq at gmx.net Sun Nov 4 03:52:43 2001 From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 03:52:43 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103220204.02d67dd0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > References: <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011104034534.030dbc20@pop.gmx.net> At 10:12 PM 11/3/01 -1000, reeza at hawaii.rr.com wrote: >Any reasonable person reading Declan's article would realize the >dumb cunt brought it on herself by being a curmudgeon and a very >uncooperative one at that. Goodbye, Reese. *PLONK* -- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 01:59:45 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:59:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE49CBC.19366.154A772C@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > Ring a bell here? Green bad, Republican good, Christian good, > Muslim bad?, or the other way round!! It would be very sad if > America was to become this shallow! Too late. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From blancw at cnw.com Sun Nov 4 04:03:45 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 04:03:45 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> Message-ID: >From Raymond D. Mereniuk: :I kinda like a place where there is a rule of law and everything is :totally predictable, something America appears to be moving away :from at this moment. ---------------------- But the situation *is* entirely predictable: Some people in scary positions of responsibility do not want to see, hear, or know The Truth, because they don't know what to do about it. It's all symbolism and familiar stereotype - if you want to get by airport security, . wear an NYPD hat . put a U.S. flag pin on your jacket lapel or somewhere on the top front of your clothing . if taking a book to read, be sure to change the cover to one from those current books written by prominent journalists or other liberal communications personalities . move in a calm manner - no sudden moves, say to help with zippers or anything (remember: they don't trust you, and only they are allowed to determine the course and direction of your next step - any sign of too much or too little self-confidence will be viewed with suspicion) . as you pass by the armed guards, look in their eye, smile sweetly, and say "I'm *so* glad you're here - I feel safer now!" . at the ticket counter, when they ask for your ID, begin with "baahaaahaaa". They will respond with recognition and relax a little. Later, you can send out your posts anonymously and be viciously, uncompromisingly, honest. I think that's how some of the original 'Patriots' did it. .. Blanc From blancw at cnw.com Sun Nov 4 04:59:56 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 04:59:56 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <200111041222.HAA00690@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: >From someone who isn't really John Young: :This 'Blanc' is now in the databank of crowing terrorists, and will be :reluctantly quoted in the next national high alert. Deceiving the homeland :guardians is treason. ---------------------- But, it's not my fault! As is said of girls wearing overly-feminized clothing: they *asked* for it. .. Blanc (I don't need to cc you; I _know_ you're there) From bo.didley at hushmail.com Sun Nov 4 06:51:24 2001 From: bo.didley at hushmail.com (bo.didley at hushmail.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 06:51:24 -0800 Subject: Who will miss Tim? Message-ID: <200111041451.fA4EpOt70833@mailserver1.hushmail.com> > On 3 Nov 2001, at 13:28, Tim May wrote: > > > What else is expected in a police state? > > The soldiers say who can travel, and where. > > Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death and start over. > I'ts time for Tim May to take his stash of Y2K gold and his arsenal and *****GET THE FUCK OUT****** He can let us know if he finds a better place. From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 4 07:16:29 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 07:16:29 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> Message-ID: <200111041222.HAA00690@granger.mail.mindspring.net> >Later, you can send out your posts anonymously and be viciously, >uncompromisingly, honest. I think that's how some of the original >'Patriots' did it. As did the 'Atta Boys.' This 'Blanc' is now in the databank of crowing terrorists, and will be reluctantly quoted in the next national high alert. Deceiving the homeland guardians is treason. So the whole thread was entrapment, starting with Declan the arch bait setting cause traitor. What do you expect of 1A in these days except ensnaring dumb fundamentalists. The moles and sleepers fingering the all too constitutional credulous. Home Schooling of the Americas. Take a moment to not cc me your calling attention to your deathwish by bragging your guerilla smarts. From jya at pipeline.com Sun Nov 4 07:26:34 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 07:26:34 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011104034534.030dbc20@pop.gmx.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103220204.02d67dd0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > <3BE465CB.6045.1473D0F5@localhost> <20011103140634.A28933@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <200111041232.HAA09148@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Luthor, for the children's sake, come into the present: PLONK is ancient rune of 'thanderals vapiding gas. Hmm, like Luthor Blisset, hoary collectivist nym, which is not to say all reds are dead just fomenting CDC misses. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 05:34:14 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:34:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE479D0.17614.14C2077F@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > Your mention of the list and the guardsman being aware of this > horrible threat coming through the airport were assumed but my > thought was it was a local redneck or folks in a vigilante mood. It > would appear this person was targeted. When such folks take > actions like this there is a reaction, ie - the victim had it written up in > a press release/article and the guardsman and airport appear > pretty stupid. Hopefully the victim of this epsode, and others of > similar episodes, will take legal action and sue. Hopefully the > American system will retain this ability. The American system is supposed to PREVENT it from taking place AT ALL. You're supposed to respect and protect peoples rights up front, not after they drag your ass into court. That guardsman took an oath to protect and uphold the Constitution and ONLY follow legal orders. Detaining or otherwise harrassing anyone for nothing more than their political views, however objectionable isn't acceptable in this country. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 05:36:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:36:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > You didn't really read the interview, did you? > > The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Even you wouldn't spit in the > eye of a cop at your door and expect no action to be taken. No she didn't. She has a legitimate right to express her political views of her governments actions with no consequences. This is as silly as the hassles other people are getting based on their reading material. You don't seem to understand American freedom either. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 05:45:08 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:45:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Blanc wrote: > Later, you can send out your posts anonymously and be viciously, > uncompromisingly, honest. I think that's how some of the original > 'Patriots' did it. Actually I think they first sent out warning, tarred and feathered the objectionable who ignored it while dumping their property in the local bay, then they sent out their notes saying "See, we meant it". -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 05:57:59 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 07:57:59 -0600 Subject: GMU Student Charged in Flag Burning Message-ID: <3BE54967.79E748CD@ssz.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/wjla/20011102/lo/gmu_student_charged_in_flag_burning_1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 05:59:36 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 07:59:36 -0600 Subject: States Devising Plan for High-Tech National Identification Cards (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3BE549C8.CB8D0251@ssz.com> I believe the Constitution requires the Feds to be in charge of inter-state commerce (see definition 2 of that word if you're confused)... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32717-2001Nov2.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 08:07:14 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 08:07:14 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: Reese wrote: > At 12:32 AM 11/4/01 -0800, S a n d y wrote: > >Reese wrote: > > > >> You didn't really read the interview, > >> did you? > >> > >> The dumb cunt brought it on herself. > > > >Yeah, just like all those other rape victims... > > ....Read the article/interview. Did. I don't care if she were singles out or not. NOBODY deserves the treatment she got. Period. Reese illustrates one of the less advertised benefits of free speech. Because Reese is free to way and write what he thinks, we all get to learn just what a misogynistic apologist for the initiation of force he is. Thanks for the warning, Reese. S a n d y From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:24:01 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:24:01 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004541.02d649e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 03:10 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a >big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them "useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? 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You have absolutely nothing to lose! This could be the most fascinating and profitable business of your life! ************************** This is a one time mailing and you'll be automatically removed. If you wish, email 87477332 at excite.com with remove in subject. *************************** From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:31:33 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:31:33 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103221425.02d55510@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082817.02d4d5a0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 07:36 AM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: Me, to Tim May: >> You didn't really read the interview, did you? >> >> The dumb cunt brought it on herself. Even you wouldn't spit in the >> eye of a cop at your door and expect no action to be taken. > >No she didn't. She has a legitimate right to express her political views >of her governments actions with no consequences. This is as silly as the >hassles other people are getting based on their reading material. What is your evidence she was detained and denied a right to fly because of her political views? What evidence do you think I can present, even by drawing from the text of her interview with Declan, in her own words, that she was denied a right to fly out of that airport because of how she acted once she arrived there? >You don't seem to understand American freedom either. I love the pot calling the kettle black in the morning, it smells like stupidity. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:36:28 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:36:28 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104083219.02d6f250@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 08:07 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> At 12:32 AM 11/4/01 -0800, S a n d y wrote: >> >Reese wrote: >> > >> >> You didn't really read the interview, >> >> did you? >> >> >> >> The dumb cunt brought it on herself. >> > >> >Yeah, just like all those other rape victims... >> >> ....Read the article/interview. > >Did. I don't care if she were singles out or not. NOBODY deserves the >treatment she got. Period. I agree. Yet that is how millions of Americans are treated every day, usually because their skin isn't white enough, their bankbook not fat enough. Sound familiar? >Reese illustrates one of the less advertised benefits of free speech. >Because Reese is free to way and write what he thinks, we all get to learn >just what a misogynistic apologist for the initiation of force he is. > >Thanks for the warning, Reese. Further, how simple the analysis of S a n d y is, that he resorts to pathetic ad hominem in an attempt to invalidate the truth of what I have said. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:45:05 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:45:05 -1000 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <8B5A0BBB-D14A-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> References: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 09:36 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: >Actually, a person or business can "refuse to serve" on nearly any basis >except race or gender or a few other politically-correct things. "Tim's >Surf Shop" can choose not to wax the board of Reese, for whatever reason >it chooses. That's right, whether "I" like it or not. >This is why I said in an earlier piece that the Godfrey/Oden cases >should not be used to further the notion of a "right to travel" (if that >"right" is construed as trampling on the rights of Southwest, United, >Tim's Surf Shop, etc. to pick and choose their customers). > >The focus should be on these things: > >-- the presence of soldiers and cops in inspection points, with way too >much lattitude to inspect bags, pull people out of line, question their >reading materials, etc. At the moment, it's National Guard, there is a long precedent for use of Nat.Guard troops for civil things. So long as they do not bring in regular active duty military, in violation of the posse comitatus act. >-- the requirement that ID be presented, which has very little to do >with airline security (for reasons Cypherpunks are very familiar with) An issue in its own right, the airlines were requiring it before 911 and the airline requiring it is not the same as the government wanting it. >-- the general headlong rush into police state measures, with the >sheeple saying "I want to feel safer. I have nothing to hide. Please, >officer, take away my rights! Please, soldiers, check what we are >reading! I want _more_ rights taken away!!" The Patriot Act still amazes me. What were those congresscritters thinking? They weren't, just reacting blindly by the looks of things. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:47:59 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:47:59 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084723.02d50340@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 10:30 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> Would you say greeting every police officer >> you meet by calling them "useless pigs" >> would be begging for victimhood? > >I'd say it's protected speech. If the cop can't handle that, can't live up >to his oath to uphold the law of the land, than he shouldn't be a cop. Meanwhile, in real life,,, From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 10:49:06 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:49:06 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084829.02d692c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:50 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: >> At 03:10 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >> >> >Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a >> >big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. >> >> Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them >> "useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? > >I'd say it was a good litmus test as to who should actually be a police >officer. Anyone who got perturbed by such a comment has zero business >being a law enforcement officer. I agree. Given the current crop of cops, is it begging for victimhood? Reese From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 06:58:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:58:48 -0600 Subject: Salon.com News | Freedom begets evil, and other realizations Message-ID: <3BE557A8.9E3603B8@ssz.com> http://salon.com/news/col/vincent/2001/11/02/libertarians/index_np.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 4 08:59:46 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 08:59:46 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103230923.02d686b0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> -- On 4 Nov 2001, at 1:58, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > What am I missing here? Was the prospective passenger > carrying weapons or anything which could be judged as a > weapon.? Was the prospective passenger deemed a threat to > any of the other passengers or the completion of the flight > to its destination? ] Let us imagine the following scenario. You are going to board a plane. Someone who is known to be, or plausibly alleged to be, a supporter of the terrorist movements the US is currently at war with, also wants to board the same plane. In that situation, your views on their right to travel by plane will probably undergo a sudden change. The enemies of freedom, which this woman certainly is, see freedom as weakness and fear, and use it against us. This creates the danger that they succeed in making us give up freedom, as has perhaps happened in this case, but it is not merely a matter of dumb fucks using terrorism to institute a police state. There is a real threat here, which has to be met with real violence. Analogously in Vietnam, the enemy mingled with the populace, so that even with the best of intentions, US forces wound up killing a lot of ordinary civilians, a problem made far worse by the stupid "body count" policy, where young ambitious officers, like the future Senator Kerrey, were apt to rack up very large body counts by any means convenient. Senator Kerrey was cerrtainly a mass murderer, and the guardsmen who stopped her from flying were certainly thugs, but the reason there are arguably grounds for overlooking Kerrey's cynical murders and the guardsmen's thuggery ,is that in the face of this quite real threat even good people will do things that are hard to distinguish from the things that bad people do. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 27HMOB8BBeIGfg7aT3n+oRAgMH8E0Sjhpgg7w6id 42AvXfoapB6NduA4gJt1a16zWy7lOQmEju4DrrtGm From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 09:14:47 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:14:47 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> Message-ID: James A. Donald wrote: > Let us imagine the following scenario. > You are going to board a plane. > Someone who is known to be, or plausibly > alleged to be, a supporter of the > terrorist movements the US is currently > at war with, also wants to board the same > plane. In that situation, your views on > their right to travel by plane will > probably undergo a sudden change. Even in James' wildly exaggerated scenario, I see no reason to stop them from traveling after they had been shown not to be a threat (as was the case with this woman). Nope, political BELIEFS are sacrosanct. Show me a tangible physical threat or leave the lady alone. > The enemies of freedom, which this woman > certainly is... Decaf, James, decaf. S a n d y From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 11:31:47 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:31:47 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104083219.02d6f250@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104085137.02c58f00@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 10:46 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> Yet that is how millions of Americans >> are treated every day, usually because >> their skin isn't white enough, their >> bankbook not fat enough. Sound >> familiar? > >All too familiar. That's why it surprises me how avidly Reese >embraces that sort of bully-boy tactics. The time to fight it is after, when there is a tort, not when you are desperate and at their mercy. Oden will not get far, I expect. >> how simple the analysis of S a n d y is, >> that he resorts to pathetic ad hominem >> in an attempt to invalidate the truth of >> what I have said. > >First, I'd already challenged and defeated your "truth." You said "Yeah, just like all those other rape victims..." except she was not a rape victim, the plunging neckline and miniskirt is not at issue. This is more like stripping all your clothes off for a stroll through the park at 2 AM, as I said in my response. >Second, your are a "misogynistic apologist for the initiation of force." Why is that in quotes? Where did it come from? Regardless, you are not reading me, you are inferring from me if you believe that. I said she brought it on herself, I did not say she deserved it. > Why are you offended? Stirring through the responses to me, it strikes me that those of you who have taken issue with me are the ones offended, I'm just calling the situation like I see it. >You seem to embrace that image anyway. Third, you are a hypocrite. >Please re-read what you said about the "cunt" in question. That what she did was dumb and that she brought it on herself? Here is what she said about it all, in her own words, from http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 "There was this National Guard guy there. He yells over at me, so everyone can hear, 'Bring your bags over here.' You know how they are when they're all puffed up with themselves. He said, 'Hurry up,' so I slowed down some more. Slowed down some more. "I put my bags on the table. The two women employees were standing there. [I tried to help them with a stuck zipper.] He grabbed my left arm, he started yelling in my face, Interfering with the baggage searchers. I said, 'You can't do that.' He went to grab my arm, and I said, 'Don't touch me.' Lipping off at the security personnel. I saw an older airline guy shake his head, 'No,' and he backed off. The "No" could have meant anything, including she failed the search. "That insulted his little manhood. Her subjective opinion, this interview is filled with it. I heard him say real soft, 'Don't let her on the plane,' like he was talking to himself. We have only her word for this. "Then I go to get on the plane since we're all done and everything, and the American Airlines ticket guy says,' You can't get on the plane.' I say, 'Why not?' ... He says, 'Because this guy says you didn't cooperate with the search.' ... She didn't. "He said, 'Maybe we can get you on the 4:00 plane, He offers. He said, 'Come with me.' I followed very slowly, I sat down for a while. I said I'm carrying these bags; I need a rest... It's called passive resistance. Passive resistance. Resisting. She didn't cooperate with the search or anything else, did she? He went and got six other National Guard guys and they all approached me. Here are these six untrained, ignorant, don't-know-how-to-deal- with-the-public, machine-gun-armed young guys in their camouflage suits with their military gear hanging off of it. "I looked up and started laughing, She laughed. "They had the airport policeman tell me, 'You're not flying out of this airport today.' ... After all the shit, they respond. They wanted to get back at me somehow because I was not a subservient female, because I questioned their manhood. She interprets wrongly, again. "I went to the American Airlines guy and said, 'Is this just today?' He said, 'I don't know.' One clerk said, 'You could drive to Boston [five hours away] and see if you can get out of there.' They still offered to get her to her destination, until she finally pissed them all off. Here is what Wal Sheasby said about it all. Reese Written by Walt Sheasby on Solidarity List Serv. Who is Walt Sheasby? See, for example: http://www.greeninformation.com/SHEASBYINDEX.htm http://pages.prodigy.net/gmoses/nvusa/gopal.htm http://www.indianagreenparty.org/gmo.mv LEADER OF GREEN SPLINTER GROUP FIBS ABOUT AIRPORT HASSLE In an official press release from its Chicago headquarters, the Greens/Green Party USA, a small splinter group that opposes recognition of the Green Party of the United States as the electoral voice of the movement that ran Ralph Nader for President in 2000, declared that one of its leaders was stopped from boarding a flight after a check turned up her name was on a computer list because the organization opposes the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan. The release said: "Armed government agents grabbed Nancy Oden, Green Party USA coordinating committee member, Thursday at Bangor International Airport in Bangor Maine, as she attempted to board an American Airlines flight to Chicago." "An official told me that my name had been flagged in the computer," a shaken Oden said. "I was targeted because the Green Party USA opposes the bombing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan." The press release was relayed around the nation as a first signal of the reach of the new draconian Patriot Act. But it turns out that Nancy Oden was apparently not barred because of a computer check, but because she did not comply with standard screening for weapons. While who said what is not clear, it appears that her name was not flagged by a computer search of potential terrorists or their supporters, according to a news report in the Bangor Daily News on Nov. 3. http://www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/article.html?ID=44958 While the undue harassment of airline travelers is to be condemned, it does not seem that this incident warrants fears of a major violation of Constitutional guarantees of free speech, as it first appeared. The group that Nancy Oden leads is nevertheless using the incident to draw attention and support to itself. One member of the group's National Council urged: "The first thing to do is to organize a committee, include spokesperson/ spokespersons. Contact civil liberties organizations including the National Lawyers Guild, the ACLU ... Ask organizations to sponsor defense committee- Seek prominent attorney who may need to have a license to practice in Maine- Send releases out every day. Has Ralph Nader been contacted? What about Phil Donahue CONTACT TALK SHOWS. TRY TO GET POLITICIANS TO SUPPORT, Barbara Lee. Organizations in Maine who know Nancy and will back her up." If the incident had taken place as Nancy Oden described it, it would mean that other Green activists and leaders of other anti-war groups would also be on computer lists and barred from flying, which reportedly has not been the case. The exaggeration of her victimization may only serve to discredit opposition to the Bush Administration's attack on civil liberties. It may also further isolate the Green Party USA, which saw a majority of delegates at its July 20 National Convention leave to form a new Green Alliance, which has its first convention in New Orleans January 18-21. From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 4 09:36:57 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:36:57 -0800 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> Message-ID: <8B5A0BBB-D14A-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 03:10 AM, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > On 4 Nov 2001, at 0:49, Reese wrote: > >> What is precedent and case history of the "We reserve the right..." >> signs in public establishments, restaurants for example? How about >> the "no shirts, no shoes, no service" signs, whether food is sold >> at the establishment or not? > > You can deny services to people providing you have a consistent > set of policies, ie - all folks are treated equally. How do you deny > air travel to some but not all of a similar nature. I smell lawsuits > once the paranoia is over with. Actually, a person or business can "refuse to serve" on nearly any basis except race or gender or a few other politically-correct things. "Tim's Surf Shop" can choose not to wax the board of Reese, for whatever reason it chooses. This is why I said in an earlier piece that the Godfrey/Oden cases should not be used to further the notion of a "right to travel" (if that "right" is construed as trampling on the rights of Southwest, United, Tim's Surf Shop, etc. to pick and choose their customers). The focus should be on these things: -- the presence of soldiers and cops in inspection points, with way too much lattitude to inspect bags, pull people out of line, question their reading materials, etc. -- the requirement that ID be presented, which has very little to do with airline security (for reasons Cypherpunks are very familiar with) -- the general headlong rush into police state measures, with the sheeple saying "I want to feel safer. I have nothing to hide. Please, officer, take away my rights! Please, soldiers, check what we are reading! I want _more_ rights taken away!!" --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From memcs1103 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 07:43:07 2001 From: memcs1103 at yahoo.com (My Email Center) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:43:07 -0600 Subject: --Most Responsive Bizop E-mail Leads! 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Prices start at only $30! ----------------------------------------------- - SPECIALS! - ---------------------- **FREE with EVERY order: Demo of ListMan e-mail manager software **Orders of 50,000 or more: FREE copy Express Mail Server to send your messages! -This is not a demo but a permanent license for the software! **Orders of 200,000 : - Resale Rights for EMS! -->You keep 100% of the profits - InfoDisk with 1000+ Money Making Reports - CheckMAN software _______________________________________________________________ To be removed from future mailings: mailto:yar1024 at yahoo.com?Subject=Remove From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 11:45:24 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:45:24 -1000 Subject: Reese's Test for the Discrimination of Pigs From Cops (Re: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011104105614.007f7320@pop.sprynet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004541.02d649e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104094408.02dce170@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 10:56 AM 11/4/01 -0800, David Honig wrote: >At 08:24 AM 11/4/01 -1000, Reese wrote: >> >>Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them >>"useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? >> > >No, it would be testing the professionalism of the cop/pig in question. Yep. >Any cop who reacts to being called "useless pig" is, in fact, one. >And should be removed from positions of authority. Good luck. >Problem with Nat'l Guardsthugs (or any MIL) >is they don't have the training of a cop. >[Professional] Cops know force gradations, psyops, constitutional >law and case history. Professional soldiers know shout, shoot. >Civil ops, civility, is not their domain. Yep, as far as I know. Too bad none of this justifies the way she resisted the search and then lied about it all, after the fact. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 11:48:50 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:48:50 -1000 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084829.02d692c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104094708.02dd5100@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 01:03 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: >>>I'd say it was a good litmus test as to who should actually be a >>>police officer. Anyone who got perturbed by such a comment has >>>zero business being a law enforcement officer. >> >>I agree. Given the current crop of cops, is it begging for victimhood? > >No, you don't actually. You DO miss the point. Well, that's that - the final arbiter of all things has spoken. >If 'real life' isn't governed by 'principles' then there is nothing but >who has the biggest stick. > >Which happens to be the entire point that 'principles' were developed, to >alleviate the problems of 'big sticks'. Whatever, Jim. Say, don't you have more url's to forward with only a vague subject line to indicate what they are about? Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 11:51:13 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:51:13 -1000 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104094902.02dd6eb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 12:54 PM 11/4/01 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> At the moment, it's National Guard, there is a long precedent for use >> of Nat.Guard troops for civil things. So long as they do not bring in >> regular active duty military, in violation of the posse comitatus act. > >And it is pure judicial fiat. Guardsmen on duty are active military. Working for the governor of their respective states, unless you're saying they've been called up by the Army and federalized. There is a long list of actions by Guardsmen by direction of state governors, you need to show how this action is in violation of that precedent if you want to make that point. Reese From fefaglass at mac.com Sun Nov 4 03:57:37 2001 From: fefaglass at mac.com (Glass Age) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:57:37 -0200 Subject: Proteja-se contra assaltos! Message-ID: <200111041147.DAA09932@toad.com> "Veja o que acontece com uma porta de vidro com 22mm de espessura recebendo 63 disparos de armas de fogo em diversos calibres" ( Cenas reais ) http://glassage.com.br/video.mpg Portas e Janelas de vidro que podem salvar a sua vida, já estão sendo fabricadas em São Paulo, vidros finos e em qualquer côr garantem a sua segurança contra armas de fogo reduzindo quando divulgado a quase nada o número de assaltos. www.glassage.com.br * Caso não queira mais receber mensagens clique e preencha no assunto: "Remover" fefaglass at mac.com From fefaglass at mac.com Sun Nov 4 03:57:41 2001 From: fefaglass at mac.com (Glass Age) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:57:41 -0200 Subject: Proteja-se contra assaltos! Message-ID: <200111041157.FAA21618@einstein.ssz.com> "Veja o que acontece com uma porta de vidro com 22mm de espessura recebendo 63 disparos de armas de fogo em diversos calibres" ( Cenas reais ) http://glassage.com.br/video.mpg Portas e Janelas de vidro que podem salvar a sua vida, já estão sendo fabricadas em São Paulo, vidros finos e em qualquer côr garantem a sua segurança contra armas de fogo reduzindo quando divulgado a quase nada o número de assaltos. www.glassage.com.br * Caso não queira mais receber mensagens clique e preencha no assunto: "Remover" fefaglass at mac.com From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 12:09:20 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 10:09:20 -1000 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104094902.02dd6eb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104100738.02d76290@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 02:07 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> Working for the governor of their respective states, unless you're saying >> they've been called up by the Army and federalized. There is a long list > >States are prohibited from having troops. Any(!) troops in the US (be they >military, guard, or militia) ARE responsible to Congress and Congress only >until Congress assigns them to the President (and only the President) as >CinC. States are not prohibited from having a militia, the National Guard is an organized militia, until such time they are federalized, at which point they fall under the Army's Chain of Command. Why do you think all or nearly all states have a National Guard, if it is prohibited as you claim? Reese From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sun Nov 4 10:09:40 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:09:40 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> References: <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE513E4.13360.298D8631@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 8:59, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Senator Kerrey was cerrtainly a mass murderer, and the > guardsmen who stopped her from flying were certainly thugs, > but the reason there are arguably grounds for overlooking > Kerrey's cynical murders and the guardsmen's thuggery ,is > that in the face of this quite real threat even good people > will do things that are hard to distinguish from the things > that bad people do. > > James A. Donald I think "overlooking" is too strong a word, I think it's more reasonable to call it mitigating circimstances. The guardsman needs to have it explained to him (in a way that the lesson will stick) that he does not have the authority to block travellers because he doesn't like their attitude or their political views. I'm not sure what disciplinary action is appropriate, probably a reptimand is good enough as long as it's made VERY clear that any sort of repeat performance will result in sever consequences. George From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 4 10:18:18 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:18:18 -0800 Subject: Reprimands considered useless In-Reply-To: <3BE513E4.13360.298D8631@localhost> Message-ID: <524D8BC7-D150-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 10:09 AM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >> > I think "overlooking" is too strong a word, I think it's more > reasonable to call it mitigating circimstances. The guardsman > needs to have it explained to him (in a way that the lesson will > stick) that he does not have the authority to block travellers > because he doesn't like their attitude or their political views. > I'm not sure what disciplinary action is appropriate, probably > a reptimand is good enough as long as it's made VERY clear that > any sort of repeat performance will result in sever consequences. > The problem lies in the _institutional_ abuse of power. Whether that particular soldier is on duty, or "learns his lesson," is neither here nor there. Some _other_ soldier is probably, as we speak, doing the same thing to some other person reading an Unapproved Book, being a member of an Unapproved Political Party, or displaying Unapproved Religious Ornaments. "Reprimanding" a particular soldier does nothing useful. Left as an exercise is what should be done to curtail such violations of Posse Comitatus and such violations of the First and Fourth Amendments. --Tim May "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 10:30:50 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:30:50 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: Reese wrote: > Would you say greeting every police officer > you meet by calling them "useless pigs" > would be begging for victimhood? I'd say it's protected speech. If the cop can't handle that, can't live up to his oath to uphold the law of the land, than he shouldn't be a cop. S a n d y From gharlanr at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 4 07:34:21 2001 From: gharlanr at bellsouth.net (Glenn Reynolds) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 10:34:21 -0500 Subject: More on Nancy Oden Message-ID: Seems she's got a background of association with ecoterrorism. http://instapundit.blogspot.com/2001_11_04_instapundit_archive.html#6855693 ******* Glenn's above URL says: >NANCY ODEN UPDATE: Turns out there's good reason for Nancy Oden to be >suspected of terrorist links -- ecoterrorist links, that is. See this >item from the Bangor Daily News, pointed out to me by reader Paul >Zrimsek. Oden denied any linkage with the ecoterrorism in question, but >in a very bin Ladenesque "I didn't do it but I approve" kind of way. >Given that ecoterrorism is, in fact, the most prevalent and widespread >form of domestic terrorism, and has continued since 9/11, her presence on >a watch list doesn't seem especially unreasonable in light of heightened >security concerns and fears (though probably wrong) that the anthrax >mailings were masterminded by domestic groups, and her presence on such a >list is likely to be on that basis, and unlikely to have anything to do >with the Green Party's positions on Afghanistan. ******* From 1support at microsoft.com Sun Nov 4 10:37:11 2001 From: 1support at microsoft.com (1support at microsoft.com) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 10:37:11 Subject: Information You Requested from Microsoft.com Message-ID: NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THIS E-MAIL. THIS E-MAIL IS NOT MONITORED. Welcome to Microsoft Online ID secure Internet environment! Below is your membership information. Please keep this confirmation mail as a record of your password. Consider this information confidential and treat accordingly. Your Microsoft Online ID Password is: cypherpunks A Microsoft Online ID provides access to various Microsoft secured programs. Please check the Frequently Asked Questions and/or Help page of the program you are accessing for questions. Sincerely, Microsoft Online ID Administrator From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 10:55:25 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:55:25 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084723.02d50340@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: Reese wrote: > At 10:30 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > ... > >I'd say it's protected speech. If the > >cop can't handle that, can't live up > >to his oath to uphold the law of the > >land, than he shouldn't be a cop. > > Meanwhile, in real life,,, Meanwhile, in real life, Reese will play the role of apologist for bully-boy cops when the "cunt" brings it herself. Of course, in the "real world" some of us don't take it laying down. S a n d y Rapists, ask Reese to be your character witness in your next court appearance. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Nov 4 10:56:14 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 10:56:14 -0800 Subject: Reese's Test for the Discrimination of Pigs From Cops (Re: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > References: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011104004541.02d649e0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <3BE4A9FC.18412.157E38DA@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011104105614.007f7320@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:24 AM 11/4/01 -1000, Reese wrote: > >Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them >"useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? > No, it would be testing the professionalism of the cop/pig in question. Any cop who reacts to being called "useless pig" is, in fact, one. And should be removed from positions of authority. Problem with Nat'l Guardsthugs (or any MIL) is they don't have the training of a cop. [Professional] Cops know force gradations, psyops, constitutional law and case history. Professional soldiers know shout, shoot. Civil ops, civility, is not their domain. From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Sun Nov 4 11:19:02 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:19:02 PST Subject: Featured Stock Of The Week - Cetalon Corp.!!! Message-ID: <200111041923.TAA04462@s0280.pm0.net> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> NOVEMBER 5, 2001 - THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Dear Investor, We would like to invite you to look at Cetalon Corp. (CETA : OTCBB) Cetalon is a great investment opportunity in the natural vitamins, minerals, and supplements industry. The company has a unique relationship with Sears (S), which allows the company to operate within Sears retail stores and enjoy unique locations on Sears' mainstream sales floors. A small float of approx. 1 million shares will surely drive demand for the company's stock. Read below for the complete profile. +>+>+> FINANCIAL DATA: - Shares Outstanding: 5,500,000 - Float (Est): 1,000,000 - 52 week High: $5.00 - 52 week Low: $0.85 - Company Homepage http://www.cetalon.com - Friday's Closing Price $1.48 per share +>+>+> ABOUT CETALON CORPORATION - (CETA : OTCBB) Cetalon is a "Store within a store" retail and direct marketing company specializing in the sale of natural vitamins, minerals, and supplements as well as health information technologies and home health care products. Cetalon is licensed to operate within Sears retail stores and enjoy unique locations on Sears' mainstream sales floors - which is a first for Sears which normally places licensees around the perimeter of their stores, or in separate locations/buildings entirely. Cetalon operates in 46 Canadian locations in Sears retail stores and have recently opened in 10 California stores under the name Sears Health and Nutrition Centers - five shops are in Southern California and five shops are in Northern California. These will act as prototypes for the Sears U.S. market. Cetalon's business model forecasts a rapid expansion into department stores in the US with products from leading manufacturers plus a full line of specialty formulated products to sell under the Company's private brand. The best-trained and motivated specialists in the industry will provide superior customer service through our partner retailers full line stores, taking advantage of their advertising and logistical support. The Company also has an alliance with Innovative Botanical Solutions, a company with a global reputation for innovative products and superior quality, to supply its private label brand. These factors coupled with Sears' 63 million strong consumer base, with a target market of nearly 50% represented, should bring Sears Health and Nutrition Centers to profitability within a relatively rapid timeframe, as per the following: +>+>+> COST FOCUS * Sears Health & Nutrition Centers has been appointed as the sole Health & Fitness licensee of Sears, Canada & U.S.A. * Sears Corporation will fund all build-outs on behalf of Sears Health & Nutrition Centers * Sears is contracted to sweep each register and close out the daily books of Sears Health & Nutrition Centers. Sears handles all aspects of collection, cash security, credit card processing and accounting control * Sears Health & Nutrition Centers will benefit from low fixed operating expenses, with no fixed minimum. This includes electricity and all utilities. Also corporate support such as (volume discounts, telephone, postage, advertising expenses) can be leveraged to reduce expenses +>+>+> SUMMARY With Sears' 63 million strong customer base and a booming health and nutrition market - look for Cetalon to add stores and increase sales, revenue and shareholder value. This is a company on the move! >>===================================>> DISCLAIMER Wallstreet Universe is an independent electronic publication providing information on selected companies. All statements and expressions are the opinion of Wallstreet Universe and are not meant to be either investment advice or a solicitation or recommendation to buy, sell, or hold securities. Investing in micro-cap securities is highly speculative and carries an extremely high degree of risk. Wallstreet Universe is not a registered investment advisor or a broker dealer. It is possible that an investor's investment may be lost or impaired due to the speculative nature of the companies profiled. This report relies on information provided by the featured Companies and/or third parties. While Wallstreet Universe believes its sources to be reliable, we make no representation or warranty as to the accuracy of the information provided. Readers should not rely solely on the information contained in this publication, but should consult with their own independent tax, business and financial advisors with respect to any investment opportunity, including any contemplated investment in the advertised Company. Factual statements in this publication are made as of the date stated and are subject to change without notice. Wallstreet Universe is not responsible for any claims made by the Company. We have prepared this report, drawing upon a range of public news, the company's website and information from sources in the industry, as well as data and opinions provided by the company. Wallstreet Universe has not independently verified the Company's representations. Any opinions expressed in this report are statements of judgment as of the date of publication. We urge readers to carefully verify all presentations within the report independently. The receipt of this publication shall not create, under any circumstances, any implication that there has been no change in the affairs of the company profiled since the date of review. This advertisement does not provide an analysis of the Company's financial position. Wallstreet Universe was paid up to $2000 for this report by The Street Insider. Furthermore, associates of Wallstreet Universe may have stock positions on profiled companies from time to time. We may profit in the event the shares of the Company profiled by us increase in value. These positions may be liquidated from time to time even after we have made positive comments regarding the Company. The receipt of this information constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions. SAFE HARBOR FOR FORWARD-LOOKING STATEMENTS: Except for historical information contained herein, the statements on this website and newsletter are forward-looking statements that are made pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Reform Act of 1995. Forward-looking statements involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties, which may cause a company's actual results in the future periods to differ materially from forecasted results. These risks and uncertainties include, among other things, product price volatility, product demand, market competition and risk inherent in the companies operations. You can identify these statements by the fact that they do not relate strictly to historical or current facts. They use words such as "anticipate," "estimate," "expect," "project," "intend," "plan," "anticipate," "guess," "think," "hear," "suggest," "believe" and other words and terms of similar meaning in connection with any discussion of future operating or financial performance. >>===================================================>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://inbound.postmastergeneral.com/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.r45.37kh From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 11:19:56 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:19:56 -0800 Subject: GADSDEN Message-ID: C'punks, The Gadsden flag is the only American flag I have any interest in flying. Laissez Faire Books is offering a stylized, anarcho-capitalist (gold on black) version of the Gadsden design on a t-shirt. I'll be picking up mine tomorrow. Check it out: http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=ET8568 If you are interested in the history of the Gadsden flag or in buying one, check out: http://www.interesting.com/gifts/gadsden/ http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-ratt.html http://www.usflag.org/gadsden.html http://www.vexillum.com/ http://www.usahistorystore.com/ http://www.americastore.com/gadsdenflag.html S a n d y From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 13:25:22 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:25:22 -1000 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104100738.02d76290@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 02:41 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> States are not prohibited from having a militia, the National Guard >> is an organized militia, until such time they are federalized, at >> which point they fall under the Army's Chain of Command. > >No, the can't except in cases of invasion. Whatever Jim. Have it your way, a century of precedent means nothing. The text of the Constitution and all the replies to other people were a nice touch, I skipped right over it. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 13:52:19 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:52:19 -1000 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104115129.02d79e70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 03:54 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> Whatever Jim. Have it your way, a century of precedent means nothing. > >I wish.... > >The point that the government is so far outside the Constitution and any >concept of reasonable 'American democracy' should be obvious, it is >usually the reason folks come here to discuss their different perspectives >of how and why, as well as what to do about it. You've yet to show how the airport departure lounge and check-in counter is the proper venue to address this. It isn't. Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 14:03:06 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 12:03:06 -1000 Subject: Mopping up (was: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103223841.02d68360@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104115908.02d36e40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 08:07 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >just what a misogynistic You stupid prick, what makes you think I am a misogynist? (hint, "misanthropist" is the word you wanted). Reese From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 10:48:20 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:48:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Analogously in Vietnam, the enemy mingled with the populace, > so that even with the best of intentions, US forces wound up > killing a lot of ordinary civilians, a problem made far worse > by the stupid "body count" policy, where young ambitious > officers, like the future Senator Kerrey, were apt to rack up > very large body counts by any means convenient. > > Senator Kerrey was cerrtainly a mass murderer, and the > guardsmen who stopped her from flying were certainly thugs, > but the reason there are arguably grounds for overlooking > Kerrey's cynical murders and the guardsmen's thuggery ,is > that in the face of this quite real threat even good people > will do things that are hard to distinguish from the things > that bad people do. Amazing! Here you make an "argument" that mass-murder is an acceptable behaviour, while you are simultaneously arguing that a political BELIEF is *not*. > --digsig > James A. Donald This is the exact kind of "logic" and "policy" that gets the US attacked in the first place James. Ultimately, the problem isn't this woman's political beliefs - it's YOUR political beliefs. And the fact that the USG both shares them and *lives by them*. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 10:50:21 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:50:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104082222.02d70650@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > At 03:10 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > > >Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a > >big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. > > Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them > "useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? I'd say it was a good litmus test as to who should actually be a police officer. Anyone who got perturbed by such a comment has zero business being a law enforcement officer. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 10:52:32 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:52:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > > > At 03:10 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > > > > >Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a > > >big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. > > > > Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them > > "useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? > > I'd say it was a good litmus test as to who should actually be a police > officer. Anyone who got perturbed by such a comment has zero business > being a law enforcement officer. Agreed. As an interesting aside, there is actual case law in New York that would be on point here (although I can't for the life of me find the damn citation. Sandy?). The NY Court of Appeals ruled that it is not possible to "disturb the peace of a police officer". The incident was in fact someone calling a cop a "pig", and their subsequent arrest for "disturbing the peace". -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 10:54:14 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:54:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > At the moment, it's National Guard, there is a long precedent for use > of Nat.Guard troops for civil things. So long as they do not bring in > regular active duty military, in violation of the posse comitatus act. And it is pure judicial fiat. Guardsmen on duty are active military. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 11:03:01 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:03:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084829.02d692c0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > At 12:50 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> At 03:10 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > >> > >> >Back to Sandy's coments Re: rape victims. Just because you got a > >> >big mouth doesn't mean you should become a victim. > >> > >> Would you say greeting every police officer you meet by calling them > >> "useless pigs" would be begging for victimhood? > > > >I'd say it was a good litmus test as to who should actually be a police > >officer. Anyone who got perturbed by such a comment has zero business > >being a law enforcement officer. > > I agree. Given the current crop of cops, is it begging for victimhood? No, you don't actually. You DO miss the point. If 'real life' isn't governed by 'principles' then there is nothing but who has the biggest stick. Which happens to be the entire point that 'principles' were developed, to alleviate the problems of 'big sticks'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 11:10:09 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:10:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business Rights and Free Markets Message-ID: Tim (and other C-A-C-L proponents) have opined that a 'business' has the 'right' to refuse service to anyone for any reason. This is clearly contrary to both the concept of 'rights' and 'free market' (and is diametricaly opposed to what C-A-C-L proponents claim(!) to want). Things don't have rights. A business is a thing. It is a mechanism whereby one or more people get from here to there. It is analgous to a bicycle and moving from point A to point B. While the people riding the bike clearly have a right to get from A to B by any mechanism that doesn't interfere with others it is a long slide into insanity to then say the bike has equivalent 'rights'. A business can refuse to serve anyone they desire for any reason, but the market such a business operates in is not(!!!) a free market by any definition that folks like von Mises or Hayek would recognize as such. Now C-A-C-L proponents claim (of which this is just another example of their hypocrisy or ignorance - take your pick [1]) that they want to create a free market that is universal in all human activity. Clearly this isn't possible operating under Tim and his supporters particular brand of 'free' which is nothing more than 'freedom for me, not for thee'. A business has the RESPONSIBILITY to refuse service to anyone which threatens that business' operations. They also have a responsibility to make that reaction as minimaly invasive as possible in all cases, no exceptions. There is no "..., but..." in free market or American democracy. [1] Never ascribe to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 11:36:14 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:36:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: GADSDEN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I prefer the Culpepper Flag, same motif but includes the red and white stripes for the original colonies. On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > C'punks, > > The Gadsden flag is the only American flag I have any interest in flying. > Laissez Faire Books is offering a stylized, anarcho-capitalist (gold on > black) version of the Gadsden design on a t-shirt. I'll be picking up mine > tomorrow. Check it out: > > http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=ET8568 > > If you are interested in the history of the Gadsden flag or in buying one, > check out: > > http://www.interesting.com/gifts/gadsden/ > http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-ratt.html > http://www.usflag.org/gadsden.html > http://www.vexillum.com/ > http://www.usahistorystore.com/ > http://www.americastore.com/gadsdenflag.html -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 11:38:45 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 13:38:45 -0600 Subject: Early American Flags with Snake Motif Message-ID: <3BE59945.9DB7665E@ssz.com> http://www.usflag.org/gadsden.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mv at cdc.org Sun Nov 4 13:43:45 2001 From: mv at cdc.org (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 13:43:45 -0800 Subject: American Schools Need Flattening Too Message-ID: <3BE5B691.169C11BD@cdc.org> So ROTC recruiting uniformed american murders on high school campuses is not disruptive, but a t-shirt is. How about those adverts reminding male fodder to register for the draft? Fly that flag upside down. At 10:06 PM 11/2/01 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: >CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A judge ruled Thursday that a 15-year-old sophomore >cannot form an anarchy club or wear T-shirts opposing the U.S. bombing of >Afghanistan because it would disrupt school. Katie Sierra was suspended >from Sissonville High School for three days for promoting the club. She >was also told she could not wear T-shirts with messages such as: "When I >saw the dead and dying Afghani children on TV, I felt a newly recovered >sense of national security. God Bless America." > >In a complaint filed with her mother, Sierra argued her right to free >speech was being denied. > >Circuit Court Judge James Stucky agreed that free speech is "sacred" but >he found that such rights are "tempered by the limitations that they ... >not disrupt the educational process." > >[Congress shall make NO LAW abridging the freedom of NON-DISRUPTIVE > speech (Guffaw)] > >Sierra said she'll pursue the dispute. "I don't want war. I'm not for >Afghanistan," Sierra said. "I think that what we're doing to them is just >as bad as what they did to us, and I think it needs to be stopped." > >James Withrow, lawyer for the Kanawha County Board of Education, argued >that an anarchy club was inappropriate because students "do not feel that >their school is a safe place anymore." "Anarchy is the antithesis of what >we believe should be in schools," Withrow said. > >Sierra's attorney, Roger Forman, said she is "being punished for >expressing her opinion." ------ All that fresh air, rations getting low... time to sporulate.. From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 4 14:04:48 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:04:48 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE54B00.20796.137F85E@localhost> -- On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > > Analogously in Vietnam, the enemy mingled with the > > populace, so that even with the best of intentions, US > > forces wound up killing a lot of ordinary civilians, a > > problem made far worse by the stupid "body count" policy, > > where young ambitious officers, like the future Senator > > Kerrey, were apt to rack up very large body counts by any > > means convenient. > > > > Senator Kerrey was cerrtainly a mass murderer, and the > > guardsmen who stopped her from flying were certainly > > thugs, but the reason there are arguably grounds for > > overlooking Kerrey's cynical murders and the guardsmen's > > thuggery ,is that in the face of this quite real threat > > even good people will do things that are hard to > > distinguish from the things that bad people do. On 4 Nov 2001, at 12:48, measl at mfn.org wrote: > Amazing! Here you make an "argument" that mass-murder is > an acceptable behaviour, while you are simultaneously > arguing that a political BELIEF is *not*. Not what I said. Did not say a political belief was unacceptable behavior, did not say Senator Kerrey's mass murder was acceptable behavior. What I said is that guerrila warfare and terrorism results in situations where it is hard to distinguish between mass murder and self defence, and hard to distinguish between political repression and routine safety precautions. Senator Kerrey (Democrat Party) can claim, implausibly, that he was defending against communist aggression, rather than inflating his body count in order to secure advancement, and we cannot prove otherwise, though it hardly seems plausible. The guardsmen can plausibly claim they were taking sensible precautions against an undeniably real terrorist threat, rather than repressing someone for their political beliefs. We cannot prove otherwise, and it may well be true. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG OX1kihX7e81AT2+o87mF12Ib1AoeMVVLhFCjdj+h 4qH4f/DXHgRgSv3KNNg+9U0i/mA8MtgpuiXnJIEym From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 4 14:04:48 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:04:48 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE54B00.25737.137F840@localhost> -- On 4 Nov 2001, at 9:14, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Even in James' wildly exaggerated scenario, I see no reason > to stop them from traveling after they had been shown not > to be a threat (as was the case with this woman). Nope, > political BELIEFS are sacrosanct. But you would probably prefer to have people with certain beliefs strip searched and anally and vaginally probed before getting on the same plane with them. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG YzF8TcXui3VpDHQkZLSRd+xNceerkdDKSh1i44Fg 4zetjA7GyUZx/onIFaIsMwr/+dkpW5JTQGQ21fMXX From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 12:07:35 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:07:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104094902.02dd6eb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > Working for the governor of their respective states, unless you're saying > they've been called up by the Army and federalized. There is a long list States are prohibited from having troops. Any(!) troops in the US (be they military, guard, or militia) ARE responsible to Congress and Congress only until Congress assigns them to the President (and only the President) as CinC. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Mqrhoads at aol.com Sun Nov 4 11:08:55 2001 From: Mqrhoads at aol.com (Mqrhoads at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:08:55 EST Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: It is possible that this story happened exactly the way Nancy Oden wrote it up, but I would be very surprised if there is not another side to this story as well. Most National Guard enlisted soldiers have barely heard of the Green Party let alone would know who a Maine party leader was, what she wrote in a local paper, or would care. The National Guard units of Maine, like National Guard units in every other state, are on a very steep learning curve regarding how to manage airport security. It is not a duty that National Guard units routinely trained for before Sept. 11 except for those Guard and reserve units involved in Civil Administration. The National Guard soldiers will make plenty of mistakes, including big ones, along the way. Members of Guard units come from all civilian occupations and it is not impossible that a few might have voted for Green Party candidates in 2000. But to start a myth that every local activist is being targeted by the National Guard for his or her political views is just plain silly. As long as they are not carrying box cutters or pose a threat to other passengers, no one cares if Green Party officers fly to their heart's content from Bangor to Bute. But one wonders if riding a bike would not be more environmentally friendly than those polluting planes. Mark Rhoads U.S. Internet Council, and, for the sake of full disclosure, a former MP in the DC National Guard ******* Forwarded by Anonymous: > > LEADER OF GREEN SPLINTER GROUP FIBS ABOUT AIRPORT > HASSLE > > In an official press release from its Chicago > headquarters, the Greens/Green > Party USA, a small splinter group that opposes > recognition of the Green > Party > of the United States as the electoral voice of the > movement that ran Ralph > Nader for President in 2000, declared that one of its > leaders was stopped > from boarding a flight after a check turned up her > name was on a computer > list because the organization opposes the U.S. bombing > of Afhanistan. The > release said: > Party USA > coordinating committee member, Thursday at Bangor > International Airport > in Bangor Maine, as she attempted to board an American > Airlines flight to > Chicago. > "An official told me that my name had been flagged in > the computer," a > shaken Oden said. "I was targeted because the Green > Party USA opposes > the bombing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan."> > The press release was relayed around the nation as a > first signal of the > reach > of the new draconian Patriot Act. But it turns out > that Nancy Oden was > apparently not barred because of a computer check, but > because she did > not comply with standard screening for weapons. While > who said what is > not clear, it appears that her name was not flagged by > a computer search > of potential terrorists or their supporters, according > to a news report > in the Bangor Daily News on Nov. 3. > > While the undue harassment of airline travelers is to > be condemned, it does > not seem that this incident warrants fears of a major > violation of > Constitutional > guarantees of free speech, as it first appeared. The > group that Nancy Oden > leads is nevertheless using the incident to draw > attention and support to > itself. > One member of the group's National Council urged: > include spokesperson/ > spokespersons. Contact civil liberties organizations > including the National > Lawyers Guild, the ACLU ... Ask organizaitons to > sponsor defense > committee- Seek prominent attorney who may need to > have a license to > practice in Maine- Send releases out every day. Has > Ralph Nader been > contacted? What about Phil Donahue CONTACT TALK SHOWS. > TRY > TO GET POLITICIANS TO SUPPORT, Barbara Lee. > Organizations in > Maine who know Nancy and will back her up.> > > If the incident had taken place as Nancy Oden > described it, it would mean > that other Green activists and leaders of other > anti-war groups would also > be on computer lists and barred from flying, which > reportedly has not been > the case. The exaggeration of her victimization may > only serve to discredit > opposition to the Bush Administration's attack on > civil liberties. > > It may also further isolate the Green Party USA, which > saw a majority of > delegates at its July 20 National Convention leave to > form a new Green > Alliance, which has its first convention in New > Orleans January 18-21. ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 14:10:13 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:10:13 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE54B00.25737.137F840@localhost> Message-ID: Nope. > -----Original Message----- > From: jamesd at echeque.com [mailto:jamesd at echeque.com] > Sent: 04 November, 2001 14:05 > To: jamesd at echeque.com; cypherpunks at minder.net; Sandy Sandfort > Subject: RE: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying > > > -- > On 4 Nov 2001, at 9:14, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > Even in James' wildly exaggerated scenario, I see no reason > > to stop them from traveling after they had been shown not > > to be a threat (as was the case with this woman). Nope, > > political BELIEFS are sacrosanct. > > But you would probably prefer to have people with certain > beliefs strip searched and anally and vaginally probed before > getting on the same plane with them. > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > YzF8TcXui3VpDHQkZLSRd+xNceerkdDKSh1i44Fg > 4zetjA7GyUZx/onIFaIsMwr/+dkpW5JTQGQ21fMXX > From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 14:39:52 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:39:52 -0800 Subject: FW: Damn ! I wish I'd though ot fhis myself Message-ID: C'punks, Friend of mine sent me this. I like the poetic justice of it. S a n d y > A Good Idea! > > All of the rubble from New York ... all the huge blocks of > concrete and steel, the old busted up computers, refrigerators, > hot water heaters, air conditioners, fire trucks, broken glass, > etc., should be shoveled into C130's and C5A's, flown over > Iraq and Afghanistan and dropped from 32,000 feet. > > A Frigidaire can do a heck of a lot of damage from 5 miles up. > With each assault, we can drop pamphlets: > "Greetings, from the 110th floor of the World Trade Center!" > > The next day it would read, "...from the 109th floor..." > > Then the 108th, etc., etc. > > After 110 days of this, I can't imagine there would be much > left standing on the ground. Can't you just see the headlines: > > "WORLD TRADE CENTER STRIKES BACK!" > > What wonderful irony this would be, and think how much money > we wouldn't have to spend on new bombs or missiles! Not to > mention the 100-million tons diverted from the New York City > landfill. From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 12:41:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:41:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104100738.02d76290@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > States are not prohibited from having a militia, the National Guard is an > organized militia, until such time they are federalized, at which point > they fall under the Army's Chain of Command. No, the can't except in cases of invasion. > Why do you think all or nearly all states have a National Guard, if it is > prohibited as you claim? Technically the National Guard is unconstitutional. It does not qualify as the 'militia' and ONLY the army, navy, and militia have been authorized (technically an independent air force is also unconstitutional without an amendment) by the Constitution (or Congress through an amendment) to date. The Constitution & Gun Rights: It's bigger than the 2nd alone This document is an ongoing project where I take comments and observations from others and post their questions and my replies. Some of this material is old and some is new. It is intended to demonstrate that when the Constitution as a whole is applied to sensitive issues it in fact provides clear direction on the limits and character of the relation between the the three arms of the government of the United States; federal, state, and individual. I assume that anyone commenting on this document is giving their explicit permission to include them with my replies unless otherwise noted. I would prefer that all discussion take place on the Cypherpunks public mailing list. I will submit all my responces to submissions to that list. If you don't wish to discuss this issue in a public forum please do not respond to me. I have no interest in private discussion on this topic. This country is going through a crisis of civil liberties and a fundamental loss of faith in the tenets of democracy. It is becoming more fascist (ie public management of private property) on a daily basis. In the near future it could become completely socialist (ie public management of public property and elimination of private property) in the name of the greater good. The belief that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the individual is in direct conflict with both the spirit and words of the Constitution. Legislative, judicial, and executive branch decisions and actions speak to this on a daily basis. One of the most controversial topics is the private ownership of weapons and the duty of the government to regulate the same. The current discussion on both sides is limited solely to the 2nd Amendment. Unfortunately this is a stillborn position because it misses fundamental issues and questions. To address those I have listed each of the relevant sections of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Perusal of these make it clear that the right of the individual to own and bear arms with no interference or regulation is a fundamental right of every American. This right is justified by a long history of abuse by political systems of the individual as well as a continous sequence of physical assaults on the citizenry. It is worth making special note that the Presidential claim to executive privilige regarding the use of military forces without Congressional permission is unconstitutional (see Article II). The Constitution clearly states the President is the commander in chief of the armed forces only after they have been called into action. And only Congress may call them into action unless it can not be conveined. The President of the United States is not in the chain of command of the military forces without specific authorization from Congress. Until such time as that is given only Congress has the authority to direct and organize military activities. This means that the President may direct military forces only until Congress convenes. At that point Congress must decide whether to agree to commit the forces. Amendment 2, 4, & 9 provide in and of themselves sufficient grounds to find any federal involvement in the purchase, possession, or operation of a weapon to be unconstitutional. One of the most specious argumenst in this discussion is that 'the people' in the 2nd Amendment is not to be construed as meaning the individual. However, it is clear from the Constitution itself and other amendments, such as the 4th, that this simply is not so. The term 'the people' means that the decision regarding such issues is to be made at the level of the individual. In other words whether a particular individual agrees to participate is completely voluntary. THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. [ Note that the intent of the Constitution, and by extension those who represent us, is to provide freedom of choice (i.e. liberty) for each individual (i.e. 'ourselves and our posterity'). This means that any claim that 'the people' does not refer to the individual and their right to make individual choices is specious and misdirected. ] Article I Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water; To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years; To provide and maintain a navy; To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces; To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions; [ Note it says 'the militia', not plural and definitely not state oriented since states are prohibited from raising or supporting troops. Note that it specificaly directs Congress and the President to use the Militia for internal issues only. ] To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; [ This says Congress organizes, armes, and disciplines the militia - again nothing to do with the states and no implication of plurality. The only job the states have is appointing officers. One can argue over the wording of the training since it is ambigous. I interpet "..., reserving to the states repesctively, the appointment of the officers, .." as being a single clause and not carrying over to "... authority of training ...". ] No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay. [ This last paragraph is of special importance. It directs the states to provide for their self defence during times of truly imminent danger. There is also the implication of immediate responce. Yet the state can not keep troops or even collect taxes to this end. This also excludes the Militia since it is under federal control and can't be used by the states without federal consent. In other words they are not to base their responce solely on state or federal employees. The implication is that each state is directed to provide for individual firearms ownership. It's also worth noting that if the US is actualy invaded and the federal forces are activated the states are still directed to raise forces independently of the federal forces, and these forces would be under state control and operated in parallel with federal forces. In addition this delegates the states to independant resistance even if the federal authorities surrender. It is a fundamental recognition of the states independence. [1] ] Article II Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment. [ This last paragraph describes how the President takes control of the military. It is only after Congress agrees to release the authority. Normal day to day training and patrol duties are responsible to Congress only. ] Article IV Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence. [ Note this says that federal forces can not be employeed within a state without the explicit permission of the state government during periods of domestic violence. In other words "rioting in the streets" is not a sufficient condition for forced federal involvement through martial law. The state legislature is the prefered authority unless it can't be convened in time. In that case the state governor can make the decision but as soon as the state legislature is convened he's out of the picture. This means that states always have the option of refusing federal assisstance. This means the various forced tax and funds refusal threats of the federal government are unconstitutional. This means states have the option of opting out of any federal gun control regulations. ] THE BILL OF RIGHTS The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution; Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two-thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States; all or any of which articles, when ratified by three-fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the said Constitution, namely: Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. [ This one really speaks for itself once you've understood the rest. They are actualy speaking of *two* seperate entities - the single federal Militia *and* the individual citizen. They are *not* one and the same. ] Amendment III No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. [ Our current society has a problem with what is understood to be 'reasonable'. This is a strong indication that we need to create a new amendment to better describe the interface, expectations, and limits of actions regarding state representatives and the individual. The only other option is to eliminate laws respecting consensual crimes such as individual drug use, abortion, etc. Arguments based on 'community standard' are inherently broken. It implies the community has some homogenious standard, there is certainly no indication of authority to sample the populate with respect to this question. The religious and free speech and press clauses prohibit it. It further prohibits laws and acts respecting law enforcement based on statistical averages, profiles, mass searches, bumper stickers, public statements not inciteing something worse than domestic violence, etc. Note that this *does* give Congress the option of training the militia for operations involving nuclear, biological, or chemical attack for domestic use. (I believe that any such use must not allow weapons for other than personal defence to these federal forces. No tanks, bombs, missiles, etc.) You can't use an individuals beliefs as a basis for law. In that case, with no sample, the only question is would any citizen object to the behaviour? It is obvious the question must be answered in the negative since you have such an example at hand from the community. This effectively eliminates consensual crimes. If an activity does not cause physical harm to a person, their property, or a voluntary public trust it can't be made against the law at the federal level. (I don't believe a coersive public trust can exist under our Constitution. You can't punish a state or throw a citizen in jail because they object to participate in federal programs.) ] Amendment IX The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. [ This one is really short and sweet. If anybody has a right then everybody has the right. There are no womens rights, gay rights, or minority rights; only human rights. This amendment prevents the government from even addressing what a persons rights are by the simple expedient that it prevents the federal or state government from even enumerating what they aren't. In other words unless the authority over some activity is proscribed in the Constitution the question of jurisdiction and decision are the individual states. It also means that the Supreme Court is prevented from using rulings that are of the enumerable type. In other words, simply because there isn't a directive in the Constitution is not sufficient reason to deny the individual the right of expression, or choice of execution. So arguments such as 'assissted suicide" isn't a right because there is no indication in the Constitution are specious and deny recognized fundamental individual rights in the 1st Amendment. So, in the case of gun control if there is a question at the federal level of jurisdiction (ie "What is meant by 'the people'?) the decision goes to the states and their individual constitutions. If it's not covererd in their individual constitutions then individuals in those states may make the decision on an individual basis. The Constitution is designed to fail-safe under questions of federal authority to the states or the individual. If Congress can't provide a delegate entry in the Constitution per the 10 th. it must suggest a constitutional amendment to the states. The current question of gun control has only two outcomes. Either individuals have their right to own guns recognized or the Congress and the state legislatures are required to mold an amendment to clarify the 2nd Amendment. The states can always stop federal aquisition of new authority at this point by simply refusing to put the amendment up for vote. At this point the states have a tacit admission of their supreme authority in such questions. ] Amendment X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. [ This amendment severely limits what the federal level of authority covers. It requires the Congress to provide a delegate, one or more sentences, in the Constition for all laws (and I believe for all suggested bills as well). it further specifies that in questions of dispute the decision goes to the individual states and their republican governments (ie state constitution). If the indvidual states don't regulate the activity it is up to the individual to participate voluntarily. The United States of America is a balkanized collection if independant states who voluntarily give up limited authority to the federal level, they must explicitly agree to this to become a state. ] The above document was submitted to the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer, it has been expanded since that time. As a result I received various replies. My comments on the replies are included below along with quotes from the replies to clarify context. From declan at well.com Sun Nov 4 11:56:57 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:56:57 -0500 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com>; from reeza@hawaii.rr.com on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 08:45:05AM -1000 References: <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> <8B5A0BBB-D14A-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <20011104145657.A16084@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 08:45:05AM -1000, Reese wrote: > of Nat.Guard troops for civil things. So long as they do not bring in > regular active duty military, in violation of the posse comitatus act. This shows a common but not entirely correct view of the PCA. You may wish to read it for yourself: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1385.html A seperate question is whether the PCA has much meaning anymore; it's just an act of Congress and can be repealed by another. Also the PCA seems to strongly indicate the president can call out the military and for domestic law enforcement without Congress' authorization. -Declan From declan at well.com Sun Nov 4 12:08:59 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 15:08:59 -0500 Subject: FC: Green Party official refused security check, airline says Message-ID: This Bangor Daily News article tells a different story about the incident involving Green Party activist Nancy Oden at a Maine airport last week: http://www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/article.html?ID=44958 The article, by Jeff Tuttle, says: >[Oden] was grounded at Bangor International Airport on Thursday after >reportedly becoming uncooperative when she was targeted for additional >screening... "She was uncooperative during the screening process," said >American Eagle spokesman Kurt Iverson, who added that Oden reportedly >would not stand still when security staff tried to wave a metal-detecting >wand over her. "Obviously if they can't submit to screening, [Federal >Aviation Administration] regulations require that they not be allowed to >board the plane." The Green Party has put out a press release, which contains no evidence to buttress Oden's claim that she was singled out before even arriving at the airport for her political views: http://www.greenparty.org/bangor.txt Previous Politech message and interview with Oden: http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233&mode=thread ******* From Budman21 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:15:40 2001 From: Budman21 at hotmail.com (Ben) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:15:40 Subject: Your Pay Pal Account Message-ID: <200111041915.LAA23270@ecotone.toad.com> Subject: Your PayPal Account RE: Money in your PayPal account Dear friend, That's what you will see if you choose to do this program -- and lots of it!! Seriously!! This is something that I wouldn't normally even look at, except I read an article in the Wall Street Journal on June 16th, 2001 about Pay Pal and x.com and the e-mails just keep coming in for this. That means somebody's making money with it. 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Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From declan at well.com Sun Nov 4 12:24:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:24:50 -0500 Subject: Green Party official refused security check, airline says Message-ID: <20011104152450.A16758@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From piolenc at mozcom.com Sat Nov 3 23:37:28 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 15:37:28 +0800 Subject: MATT DRUDGE // DRUDGE REPORT =?iso-8859-1?Q?2001=AE?= - Delta Force gets bloody nose, intensity scares the crap out of everybody... References: <3BE43CB1.8A264B8A@ssz.com> Message-ID: <3BE4F038.BCA79D47@mozcom.com> O-kay - the learning process begins. In every war we've ever fought, we've learned from our opponents - if the political leadership gave us the opportunity to do it. Now we know the Talibs have small, heavily armed forces staked out NEXT TO obvious fixed objectives. Our next assaults will be in greater force, and on the CURRENT enemy positions instead of those they've abandoned under bombardment. What that means is that the combination of bombardment and ground assault is WORKING, unless you believe that the positions the Talibs are hastily improvising are better than those they were forced to abandon... Marc de Piolenc Jim Choate wrote: > > http://www.drudgereport.com/flash33.htm From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 13:54:43 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:54:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > Whatever Jim. Have it your way, a century of precedent means nothing. I wish.... The point that the government is so far outside the Constitution and any concept of reasonable 'American democracy' should be obvious, it is usually the reason folks come here to discuss their different perspectives of how and why, as well as what to do about it. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 14:04:31 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 16:04:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104115129.02d79e70@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > You've yet to show how the airport departure lounge and check-in counter > is the proper venue to address this. It isn't. ??? Why 'where' even relevant? If it doesn't apply all day, every day, every place then it applies no place at no time. As to a century of precedence, if it's unconstitutional precedence then yes, it means nothing. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 18:45:36 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 16:45:36 -1000 Subject: Mopping up (was: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104115908.02d36e40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104163411.00aed590@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 06:29 PM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> You stupid prick, what makes you think I >> am a misogynist? (hint, "misanthropist" >> is the word you wanted). > >No, you are wrong. Misogynist is the word I meant. Suit yourself. >Saying that the "cunt" was asking for it, was a dead giveaway. I said she brought it on herself by acting the way she did, which is redundantly evident. It's also clear you are objecting to the word "cunt" so I used "prick" also. If it makes you (or anyone else) feel better I'll retract both the explicatives but I stand by the original assessment - she was dumb to think she could resist the way she did with impunity. Further, she lied about it in the press release we saw yesterday, Declan's interview revealed that and the statement from Walt Sheasby I posted (and which Declan reposted) confirm that. >(Though you may be a misanthrope as >well. Misanthrope is the better word because I do not hate all women, just the stupid lying ones. You use your choice as a pc weapon. >You certainly are poorly socialized.) Pardon me why I cry myself to sleep. Really. Interested in some property? Reese From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sun Nov 4 19:14:53 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 17:14:53 -1000 Subject: Mopping up (was: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104163411.00aed590@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104171309.03d54f00@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 07:04 PM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Reese wrote: > >> If it makes you (or anyone else) feel >> better I'll retract both the explicatives... > >Good boy! We'll socialize you yet. > >(That's "expletives" by the way...) Shit, I hate it when I misspell words I know or ought to know. Reese From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 17:59:03 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 17:59:03 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE513E4.13360.298D8631@localhost> References: <3BE50382.21367.20B233@localhost> <3BE4A099.24734.15598C22@localhost> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104165039.0327d360@idiom.com> At 10:09 AM 11/04/2001 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >I think "overlooking" is too strong a word, I think it's more >reasonable to call it mitigating circimstances. The guardsman >needs to have it explained to him (in a way that the lesson will >stick) that he does not have the authority to block travellers >because he doesn't like their attitude or their political views. >I'm not sure what disciplinary action is appropriate, probably >a reptimand is good enough as long as it's made VERY clear that >any sort of repeat performance will result in sever consequences. It's one thing for a minimum wage ArentSoBright security guard to be concerned about the people carrying scary computer parts. (Hi, Dave!) That's a problem, but it's a one-off. This is something different - the Guardsman is sworn to uphold the Constitution, yet he's violating someone's rights in what appears to be a pre-planned retailiation for her political beliefs. That's a one-strike firing offense, like a cop getting caught stealing. The appropriate action is for the Guard's probably non-existent equivalent of Police Department Internal Affairs to find out who else was involved in this offense, and what level of pre-planning really happened - was it truly a random thing? If it was political, that's also sufficiently illegal that the Uniform Code of Military Justice requires soldiers to disobey, and failing to do so is another one-strike-you're-out kind of thing. Does the Guardsman only deserve firing, after an appropriate court-martial, or does he also deserve civilian punishment? The separate issue is the airline - the airline employee clearly deserves a reprimand, and whoever told all the other airlines that they don't want this Green Party person flying does as well. They sold her a ticket, and violated their contract to carry her, and the issue of whether it really was safety-related or whether a really egregious breach of contract is a question for a court. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 18:05:49 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 18:05:49 -0800 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104084011.02dafeb0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > References: <8B5A0BBB-D14A-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> <3BE4B186.18981.159BACBA@localhost> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104180101.03296190@idiom.com> At 08:45 AM 11/04/2001 -1000, Reese wrote: >At the moment, it's National Guard, there is a long precedent for use >of Nat.Guard troops for civil things. So long as they do not bring in >regular active duty military, in violation of the posse comitatus act. As a recent article on Posse Comitatus pointed out, P.C. is just a law, not a Constitutional requirement, so it can be changed any time the politicians feel like it, and since the War On Drugs militarization, it's basically become a requirement that if the Law Enforcers want military assistance, they have to fill out the right forms in triplicate, but it's just a procedural separation, not a church-and-state kind of thing. >The Patriot Act still amazes me. What were those congresscritters >thinking? They weren't, just reacting blindly by the looks of things. The correct punctuation is "What, were those congresscritters thinking?". Gotta get those commas in the right place... From bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com Sun Nov 4 18:08:23 2001 From: bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocks) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 18:08:23 -0800 Subject: GPRX Jumps to the Lead in Formula 3000 Racing Message-ID: _/_/ RAPID BLAST _/_/ Reaching Over 1 Million Investors Maximum Speed- So You See it First The new Rapid Blast Service provides you with content from the best financial newsletters on the Web in an ultra-light text format that doesn't tax your in-box and gets to you at "break neck" speed, thus maximizing your ability to read, digest and react. This week's profile highlights Grand Prix Sports Inc. (OTC BB: GPRX), the 40 percent owner of Coca-Cola Nordic Racing, a major winner in Formula 3000 Grand Prix racing. The company has BREAKING NEWS just released after-market. This means that for once, you won't be the last to know. BACKGROUND Very few opportunities exist to invest in sports or athletic teams. Formula Motor Sports (Grand Prix Racing) is the worlds most popular sport with an enormous following and sponsorships of their multi- continental race circuit. Formula 3000 grew out of the popularity of Formula 1 racing. The circuit now boasts worldwide interest and elite corporate sponsorship from companies like Coca-Cola. << Breaking News >> ================================================================= Grand Prix Sports Inc. Through Coca-Cola Nordic Racing Wins FIA Formula 3000 Team Championship for 2001 *** News/Assignment Editors & Sports Writers IRVINE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 2, 2001--Grand Prix Sports Inc. (OTC BB:GPRX) announced that it has won both the FIA Formula 3000 International Team Championship and Drivers' Championship for the 2001 season. Coca-Cola Nordic Racing secured the Team Championship with two races remaining in the 2001 season and has set new team records for the most podium appearances and team points of any team since 1985. Appropriately, Coca-Cola Europe Ltd. has extended its title sponsorship for Nordic Racing for an additional two years. Coca-Cola Nordic Racing driver Justin Wilson also won the prestigious Drivers' Championship while teammate Tomas Enge finished in a tie for second place. Wilson became the first-ever British driver to win the Drivers' Title and with a 71 point total, eclipsed the all time single season points record previously held by Formula 1 driver Juan Pablo Montoya. Enge missed the last F3000 race at Monza, Italy after being chosen by the Prost Formula 1 team to replace the injured Luciano Burti for the last three Formula 1 races. Enge successfully competed in the Italian, American and Japanese Grand Prixes to finish the Formula 1 season with Prost. "Obviously, this is the utmost achievement in Formula 3000," stated Team Principal, Derek Mower. "To win both of these titles is a testament to the strength of our race team and the support of sponsors like Coca-Cola and Conoco. Together, we're effectively tapping into the enormous popularity of global motor sports." Grand Prix Sports owns 40% of Coca-Cola Nordic Racing and is the first publicly traded race team in the Formula world, allowing fans of Formula racing, by and large the world's most popular sport, the unique opportunity to "own" part of a race team. The Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 provides a "safe harbor" for forward-looking statements. Certain information included in this news release contains statements that are forward-looking, such as statements related to the future anticipated direction of the industry, plans for future expansion, various business development activities, planned capital expenditures, future funding sources, anticipated sales growth and potential contracts. Such forward-looking information involves important risks and uncertainties that could significantly affect anticipated results in the future and, accordingly, such results may differ from those expressed in any forward-looking statements made by, or on behalf of Grand Prix Sports Inc. These risks and uncertainties include, but are not limited to, those relating to development and expansion activities, dependence on existing management, financing activities, and domestic and global economic conditions. ### [PLEASE FEEL FREE TO REVIEW THIS NEWS RELEASE IN ITS ENTIRETY HERE: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/011102/20247_1.html (Copy and paste link into your browser) FINANCIALS GPRX has 61.5 million shares outstanding with a $46.74 million market cap. The stock generally trades roughly 60,000 shares per day. The high for the year was $2.56 (04/03/2001) and the low was $0.013 (11/08/2000). A British investment bank, the Bauer Partnership, invested $2 million in Nordic Racing after its win at Silverstone, England in July. ABOUT NORDIC RACING Derek Mower is the team principal and founder, and formed Nordic Racing in 1993. Mr. Mower has worked with such names as Fittipaldi and Andretti to name a few. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ If you are interested in having your company and/or products featured to over 1 million investors and consumers, please contact us at info at stockupticks.com _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ DISCLAIMER All statements and expressions are the sole opinions of Rapid Blast and are subject to change without notice. This is neither an offer or a solicitation to buy or sell any securities mentioned. We do not represent or guarantee the accuracy of any statements made herein. Rapid Blast was paid $5,000 cash plus and $7,500 worth of GPRX shares by Agora Capital Partners International, INc. to prepare and dissemin- ate this Rapid Blast and provide other advertising services. This blast may contain forward looking statements relating to the expected capa- bilities of the companies mentioned herein. The reader should do their own due diligence before investing in any securities for suitability. Investing in these securities mentioned is speculative and carries a high degree of risk. --- You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com From noreply at cypherpunks.to Sun Nov 4 09:15:17 2001 From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:15:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: The feebs can read my email, I feel safer already Message-ID: <40a26835e1db5040e395f39b8e4c9ac7@cypherpunks.to> "This Just In --- Internet to be rooted thru central FBR servers. Death of the 4th Amendment predicted. Movie at 11." We have always been at war with Iraniraqistan. -- "Four Arab-looking guys reading the Koran are much less suspicious if they have the cards and can just slash them through card readers." ~ Alan 'Ausweis Macht Frei' Dershowitz For the irony impaired there now follows a FICTIONAL! (repeat FICTIONAL!) example of exactly the sort of thing that will NOT be grounds for a no-knock warrant. > > Freind, > > Compliments of the season. Grace and peace and love > from Almighty God to you. I hope my letter does not > cause you too much embarrassment as I write to you > in good faith, based on the contact address given > to me by a friend who works at the Pakistani embassy > in your country. Please excuse my intrusion into your > private life. > > I have fallen on some hard times. Vindictive government > officials who are bent on dealing with my family have > made it necessary that I seek your assistance on their > behalf. The Swiss government has already frozen all > the accounts of my family in Switzerland, and some > other countries would soon follow to do the same. > I no longer have freedom of movement in my own country. > > My tent blew away and the gr8 s8n gave my camel a severe > case of hemorrhoids. What with the winter coming next > week, can I stay at your place for a while? ];-p > > > yours > > ITMA > > > > > > From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 18:29:13 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:29:13 -0800 Subject: Mopping up (was: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104115908.02d36e40@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: Reese wrote: > You stupid prick, what makes you think I > am a misogynist? (hint, "misanthropist" > is the word you wanted). No, you are wrong. Misogynist is the word I meant. Saying that the "cunt" was asking for it, was a dead giveaway. (Though you may be a misanthrope as well. You certainly are poorly socialized.) S a n d y From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 17:00:33 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:00:33 -0600 Subject: DRUDGE REPORT FLASH 2001 - New Yorker story false... Message-ID: <3BE5E4B1.2194076B@ssz.com> http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 19:01:43 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:01:43 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_DRUDGE_REPORT_FLASH_2001=AE_-_New_Yorker_?= story false, says Pentagon In-Reply-To: <3BE5E4B1.2194076B@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104185127.0328f320@idiom.com> At 07:00 PM 11/04/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm Drudge flashes about lots of things. It's nice to get a bit of context besides just the URL, Jim... This is the Pentagon claiming that the story about Delta Force getting shot up during a raid on Afghanistan is incorrect. Seymour Hersh is a journalist who's annoyed the Pentagon for decades, printing stories they don't want printed. This one they're denying before it even hits paper... Also, I don't see any evidence that he "strongly debunked" the story; he flamed it aggressively, but to strongly debunk something you need facts, not just assertions. You also need to have read the story you're debunking, which the spokescritter indicates he hasn't. The phrase " My guess is and my belief is that" also makes it clear that he doesn't know the facts of what happened, though he does indicate that US forces had a helicopter accident and some parachute accidents, and comes close to implying some problems with friendly fire, because he'd rather admit that than admit that The Enemy shot US soldiers. Bunk. =============== PENTAGON: NEW YORKER STORY FALSE, NO SERIOUS INJURIES DURING DELTA RAID Sun Nov 04 2001 15:13:35 ET Joint Chiefs of Staff General Richard Myers strongly debunked a story filed by the NEW YORKER's Seymour Hersh [set for publication on Monday] which claims U.S. Delta members were seriously injured during a raid on Mullah Omar's complex in Afghanistan. ..... =============== From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 17:02:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:02:00 -0600 Subject: A Deliberate Strategy of Disruption (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3BE5E508.EE7C7566@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36356-2001Nov3.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 4 19:04:07 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:04:07 -0800 Subject: Mopping up (was: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104163411.00aed590@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: Reese wrote: > If it makes you (or anyone else) feel > better I'll retract both the explicatives... Good boy! We'll socialize you yet. (That's "expletives" by the way...) S a n d y From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 17:19:43 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:19:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?Re=3A_CDR=3A_DRUDGE_REPORT_FLASH_2001=AE_-_Ne?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?w_Yorker_story_false=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <3BE5E4B1.2194076B@ssz.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm Um, yeah, right. Amazing how every single thing we have done has been "flawless", how what few casualties we have taken have *all* been from non-taliban causes, how every missing/downed aircraft has been from "dust storms" or other "bad weather"... Does the US really believe that anyone else believes this propaganda bullshit? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 19:20:53 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:20:53 -0800 Subject: A Deliberate Strategy of Disruption (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: <3BE5E508.EE7C7566@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104191249.0329a800@idiom.com> At 07:02 PM 11/04/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36356-2001Nov3.html >-- Very strange - the article headline and subtitle are seriously at odds with the contents of the article. Sounds like the headline editor has much different opinions than Bob Woodward and the primary authors. It's about the 1147 people detained in the anti-terror dragnet. Only 185 of them have problems with their immigration papers. The Washington Post identified 235 of them, and tried to figure out what strategies the Feds are using to pick their targets. The Feds, of course, assert that for except the people being held as material witnesses, all of the detainees violated some law or other. Evidence suggests otherwise, and most of them have not been charged with any crime. Lots of detail. From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 4 17:24:02 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:24:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > Whatever Jim. Have it your way, a century of precedent means nothing. You may want to acquire (and possibly even *read*), "Government By Judiciary". -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From utopia_alive at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 19:41:26 2001 From: utopia_alive at yahoo.com (super ego) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:41:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is this country about? Freedom of only one kind? Message-ID: <20011105034126.51702.qmail@web14910.mail.yahoo.com> (Ed. Note: Nancy Oden is a top U.S. Green Party official and a member of the party's coordinating committee. An organic farmer, peace activist, and all-around firebrand, she lives in Jonesboro, Maine.) "Just a few weeks ago I had a piece in the Bangor paper. It's on our website, greenparty.org... I submitted it under my name alone. It's a fairly radical piece; that's what I do. I'm a political and environmental activist. "I walked into the Bangor airport. What I saw was National Guard folks all over carrying machine guns... The atmosphere was very tense... This was Thursday... I went over to the American Airlines ticket counter way down at the end. Nobody else was there, except the clerk. I gave him my name. He didn't even ask for photo ID. It was almost like they were expecting me. He put it into the computer. He stayed on the computer a long time, like 10 minutes. "He put an S on the boarding pass, for search. He said, 'You've been picked for having your bag searched.' ... I said to him, 'This wasn't random, was it?' He said, 'No you were in there to be searched, no matter what.' I went over to baggage to put my bags through the X-ray and then went into the boarding area. "There was this National Guard guy there. He yells over at me, so everyone can hear, 'Bring your bags over here.' You know how they are when they're all puffed up with themselves. He said, 'Hurry up,' so I slowed down some more. "I put my bags on the table. The two women employees were standing there. [I tried to help them with a stuck zipper.] He grabbed my left arm, he started yelling in my face, 'Don't you know what happened? Sep. 11, don't you know thousands of people died?' I said, 'You can't do that.' He went to grab my arm, and I said, 'Don't touch me.' I saw an older airline guy shake his head, 'No,' and he backed off. "That insulted his little manhood. He could not force me to listen to his idiot ideas on Sep. 11, whatever it was he wanted to say. So he was angry. I hadn't done anything except pull away from him... I think he was trying to provoke me. They did the wand thing, they were done, and I heard him say real soft, 'Don't let her on the plane,' like he was talking to himself. "Then I go to get on the plane since we're all done and everything, and the American Airlines ticket guy says,' You can't get on the plane.' I say, 'Why not?' ... He says, 'Because this guy says you didn't cooperate with the search.' ... I said, 'Didn't you see him grab my arm?' He said, 'No, your back was to me.' "He said, 'Maybe we can get you on the 4:00 plane, it's the last one today.' I felt, okay, let's put up with this aggravation now and I'll go to Chicago and we'll see what we can do... Then this little guard guy, it wasn't enough to stop me, wasn't done with me. He said, 'Come with me.' I followed very slowly, I sat down for a while. I said I'm carrying these bags; I need a rest... It's called passive resistance. "He went and found the airport police to come and talk with me. He went and got six other National Guard guys and they all approached me. Here are these six untrained, ignorant, don't-know-how-to-deal-with-the-public, machine-gun-armed young guys in their camouflage suits with their military gear hanging off of it. "I looked up and started laughing, 'Is all this for me, guys? What is this about?' There was this big burly guy, he was in front. He said, 'You didn't cooperate with the search.' ... I said what he did was grabbed my arm, and I backed away... He said he only hit your arm. I said even if that's all he did, he's not allowed to do that. He can't hit my arm and demand I listen to him. "They had the airport policeman tell me, 'You're not flying out of this airport today.' ... Of course I had cooperated; why do I care if they search my bags? ... What I didn't like was being singled out because of my political views. They couldn't arrest me because there was no reason for that. They had people who saw there was nothing to arrest me for. They wanted to get back at me somehow because I was not a subservient female, because I questioned their manhood. "I went to the American Airlines guy and said, 'Is this just today?' He said, 'I don't know.' One clerk said, 'You could drive to Boston [five hours away] and see if you can get out of there.' "I never made it out of Bangor. I had to turn around and drive 100 miles back home... The fact that they gave the other airlines my name... They told me they did that... That's incredible." ### Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 17:43:46 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:43:46 -0600 Subject: Government by Judiciary Message-ID: <3BE5EED2.E97F468@ssz.com> I'd never heard of the book before... http://www.anthonyhargis.com/governme.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmself at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 4 19:47:55 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:47:55 -0800 Subject: FW: Damn ! I wish I'd though ot fhis myself In-Reply-To: ; from sandfort@mindspring.com on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 02:39:52PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011104194755.C18425@navel.introspect> on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 02:39:52PM -0800, Sandy Sandfort (sandfort at mindspring.com) wrote: > C'punks, > > Friend of mine sent me this. I like the poetic justice of it. Terminal velocity of dust is pretty low. Reports are that the bulk of the WTC debris are same. There are structural components from the base of the towers, and debris from neigboring buildings, which are more substantial. Frankly, a modicum of HE attached to a guided device is more effective ordinance. There's a poetic sense to this, but not much military practicality. > > S a n d y > > > A Good Idea! > > > > All of the rubble from New York ... all the huge blocks of concrete > > and steel, the old busted up computers, refrigerators, hot water > > heaters, air conditioners, fire trucks, broken glass, etc., should > > be shoveled into C130's and C5A's, flown over Iraq and Afghanistan > > and dropped from 32,000 feet. > > > > A Frigidaire can do a heck of a lot of damage from 5 miles up. With > > each assault, we can drop pamphlets: "Greetings, from the 110th > > floor of the World Trade Center!" > > > > The next day it would read, "...from the 109th floor..." > > > > Then the 108th, etc., etc. > > > > After 110 days of this, I can't imagine there would be much left > > standing on the ground. Can't you just see the headlines: > > > > "WORLD TRADE CENTER STRIKES BACK!" > > > > What wonderful irony this would be, and think how much money we > > wouldn't have to spend on new bombs or missiles! Not to mention the > > 100-million tons diverted from the New York City landfill. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 4 20:12:13 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 20:12:13 -0800 Subject: American Schools Need Flattening Too In-Reply-To: <3BE5B691.169C11BD@cdc.org> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104192503.03298b50@idiom.com> It's pretty clear that the school district is violating her civil rights to freedom of expression and freedom of association, and that the either judge and school board lawyer doesn't understand either anarchy or anarchism or the Constitution, or that if they do understand them they don't like them, though it's not clear whether the kid understands anarchy or just likes black t-shirts and dislikes war and has a problem with school district arbitrary censorship. On the other hand, the idea that anarchists need an officially-supported club at a government-run school is a bit silly - she and her friends could just as well get together at the local coffee shop, or the mall, or hang out by the Coke machine. It's definitely nice to see parents sticking up for their kid. >At 10:06 PM 11/2/01 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: > >CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A judge ruled Thursday that a 15-year-old > >sophomore cannot form an anarchy club or wear T-shirts opposing the > >U.S. bombing of Afghanistan because it would disrupt school. > > Katie Sierra was suspended from Sissonville High School for > >three days for promoting the club. .... > >Circuit Court Judge James Stucky agreed that free speech is "sacred" > >but he found that such rights are "tempered by the limitations that they ... > >not disrupt the educational process." > >... > >James Withrow, lawyer for the Kanawha County Board of Education, argued > >that an anarchy club was inappropriate because students "do not feel > >that their school is a safe place anymore." "Anarchy is the antithesis of > >what we believe should be in schools," Withrow said. From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 4 18:30:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 20:30:52 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Appeal for death row inmate says lawyer also had represented victim - November 4, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE5F9DC.141C2A04@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/04/scotus.mickens.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sun Nov 4 20:56:56 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:56:56 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104165039.0327d360@idiom.com> References: <3BE513E4.13360.298D8631@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE5AB98.12482.2BDE1E59@localhost> On 4 Nov 2001, at 17:59, Bill Stewart wrote: > It's one thing for a minimum wage ArentSoBright security guard > to be concerned about the people carrying scary computer parts. > (Hi, Dave!) That's a problem, but it's a one-off. > > This is something different - the Guardsman is sworn to uphold the > Constitution, yet he's violating someone's rights in what > appears to be a pre-planned retailiation for her political beliefs. > That's a one-strike firing offense, like a cop getting caught stealing. Right. I didn't see it this way, I got the impression that she was prevented from flying because she gave the guard attitude (deliberately slowing down when he told her to speed up, etc.) rather than for her politics as such. Still unacceptable behavior, of course, but (to my mind) not nearly as bad. My suggestion that he should be let off with a reprimand should be read in that context. I should add here that none of us know exactly what happened, and it's conceivable that she might have said/done stuff significantly more threatening than what she mentioned, and that keeping her off the flight was actually the right thing to do. Not asserting that this is the case, of course, just pointing out the possibility. > The separate issue is the airline - the airline employee clearly > deserves a reprimand, and whoever told all the other airlines that > they don't want this Green Party person flying does as well. > They sold her a ticket, and violated their contract to carry her, > and the issue of whether it really was safety-related or whether > a really egregious breach of contract is a question for a court. > I'm not sure how egregious is egregious in the context of missing flights. I've been unable to fly when I was supposed to because of weather, mechanical problems, and because the asshole cabs weren't there to pick me up when they were supposed to be. Never get any compensation for it. None of this justifies anything, of course, but the point is that there's always a non-negligible chance that you won't be able to get on the flight you paid for. 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Thank you. ×ð¾´µÄÏÈÉúÃÇ¡¢Å®Ê¿ÃÇ£º ÄúÃǺã¡ ÎÒÃÇÊÇÖйúÒ»¼ÒרҵÉú²ú¸÷ÖÖ¹ÒËøµÄÖÆÔìÉÌ¡£Ä¿Ç°£¬ÎÒÃÇÉú²úµÄ¹ÒËø¾ßÓÐ"ÖÊÓżÛÁ®"µÄÌص㡣ÎÒÃǵIJúÆ·Ö÷ÒªÏúÍùÖж«¡¢ÄÏÃÀ¡¢¶«ÄÏÑÇ¡¢Å·ÖÞÒÔ¼°·ÇÖ޵ȵأ¬²¢Êܵ½µ±µØÈËÃǵÄÈÈÁÒ»¶Ó­¡£ÎÒÃÇ»¹ÄÜ'¸ù¾Ý¿Í»§ÒªÇóµÄÆ·ÅƽøÐÐÉú²ú¡£Ï£ÍûÄúÄܶÔÎÒÃǵIJúÆ·¸ÐÐËȤ£¬²¢»¶Ó­ÄúµÄѯ¼Û¡£ÎÒÃǽ«½ß³ÏΪÄú·þÎñ¡£ Çë²Î¹ÛÎÒÃǵÄÍøÕ¾£ºhttp:/www.china-padlock.com ÁªÏµÈË£ºÖ콨½ø µç»°£º0086-578-3158898 ´«Õ棺0086-578-3157775 Èç¹û´ËÐÅÏ¢¸øÄú´øÀ´Öî¶à²»±ã£¬ÎÒÃǸе½±§Ç¸¡£Ç뽫Æäɾ³ý¡£Ð»Ð»¡£ From declan at well.com Sun Nov 4 18:27:05 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 21:27:05 -0500 Subject: Ian Clarke speaking in Washington DC Monday Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011104212556.00ab1010@mail.well.com> Ian Clarke (architect of Freenet) will be in Washington, DC tomorrow and is giving an informal talk. I'm hosting the gathering, which is tomorrow, Monday, November 5, 2001 at 7 pm ET. 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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 20:06:31 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 22:06:31 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Man arrested with knives, stun gun at O'Hare - November 4, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE61047.3A750DC0@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/04/inv.ohare.arrest/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 4 20:09:44 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 22:09:44 -0600 Subject: An Intelligence Giant in the Making (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3BE61108.618D00A4@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33340-2001Nov3.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From verba at rol.it Sun Nov 4 13:19:56 2001 From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:19:56 +0100 Subject: Verba Volant del 05-11-01, Message-ID: <1004912396@web2bk.logos.it> Verba Volant del 05-11-01, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com _________________ Quotation of the day: Author - Karl Marx http://www.logos.it/bio/karl_marx.html English - the dominant ideology has always been the ideology of the dominant class Italian - l'ideologia dominante � sempre stata l'ideologia della classe dominante Spanish - la ideolog�a dominante ha sido siempre la de la clase dominante French - l'id�ologie dominante est toujours l'id�ologie de la classe dominante Portuguese - a ideologia dominante foi sempre a da classe dominante Brazilian Portuguese - a ideologia dominante foi sempre a da classe dominante German - die herrschende Ideologie war schon immer die Ideologie der herrschenden Klasse Hungarian - az uralkod� ideol�gia mindig is az uralkod� oszt�ly ideol�gi�ja volt Finnish - hallitseva ideologia on aina ollut hallitsevan luokan ideologia Catalan - la ideologia dominant, sempre ha sigut la ideologia de la classe dominant Croatian - dominantna ideologija je uvijek bila ideologija dominirajuce klase Czech - vl�dnouc� ideologie byla v�dy ideologi� vl�dnouc� tr�dy Dutch - de dominante ideologie is altijd de ideologie geweest van de dominante klasse Emiliano-Romagnolo - e' parir ch'a sgumenda l'� semper stett e parir di quei c'uss nomm sgumandent Furlan - l'ideologie dominant 'e j� simpri stade l'ideologie de classe dominant Latin - ratio praevalens semper ratio classis praevalentis fuit Latvian; Lettish - valdo�a ideologija vienmer ir bijusi valdo�as �kiras ideologija Occitan - l�ideologia que comanda es totjorn estada l�ideologia de la classa que comanda Polish - ideologia panujaca byla zawsze ideologia klasy panujacej Romanian - ideologia dominanta a fost �ntotdeauna ideologia clasei dominante Slovak - vl�dnuca ideol�gia bola v�dy ideol�giou vl�dnucej triedy Venetian - la ideologia dominante la xe senpre stada quela de la classe dominante Sicilian - l'ideologia dominanti av'a statu sempri chidda d' 'a classi dominanti Flemish - de dominante ideologie is altijd de ideologie geweest van de dominante klasse Calabrese - l' ideologia chi� forte � sempri stata l'ideologia da a classi chi� forti Reggiano - l'idea ch'egh cmanda l'� seimprer steda c�la ed qui ch'egh cmanden Ferrarese - l'ideologia dominante l'� sempar stada l'ideologia dla clase dominante Bolognese - l�ideolog� ch�la cmanda l�� s�nper st� l�ideolog� dla cl�s ch�la cmanda _________________ All languages, please click on this link http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=436 _________________ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:" From declan at well.com Sun Nov 4 19:52:25 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:52:25 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?DRUDGE_REPORT_FLASH_2001=AE_-_New_Yorker__story_false=2 C_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?says_Pentagon?= In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011104185127.0328f320@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 07:01:43PM -0800 References: <3BE5E4B1.2194076B@ssz.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20011104185127.0328f320@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20011104225224.A26652@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 07:01:43PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: > Also, I don't see any evidence that he "strongly debunked" the story; > he flamed it aggressively, but to strongly debunk something > you need facts, not just assertions. You also need to have read the Right. He claims the report is untrue, but (as Jim really should know but doesn't appear to) that does not equate to a debunking. -Declan From Sales at cheap-mobiles.com Mon Nov 5 00:08:35 2001 From: Sales at cheap-mobiles.com (Sales at cheap-mobiles.com) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 00:08:35 -0800 Subject: NEW Nokia 8310 Mobile Phone 65 Message-ID: <200111050808.AAA24841@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6558 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grocha at neutraldomain.org Mon Nov 5 03:47:01 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 03:47:01 -0800 Subject: Business Rights and Free Markets In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 01:10:09PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20011105034701.W43409@neutraldomain.org> On Sun, Nov 04, at 01:10PM, Jim Choate wrote: | Tim (and other C-A-C-L proponents) have opined that a 'business' has the | 'right' to refuse service to anyone for any reason. This is clearly | contrary to both the concept of 'rights' and 'free market' (and is | diametricaly opposed to what C-A-C-L proponents claim(!) to want). Dear Mr. Choate, Please, oh please, actually read a little bit into that wonderful process known as "the free market" and understand that the very basic notion of the same is free consentual exchange between two parties. If one is not free to deny service based on any grounds (yes, as far as the free market is concerned, one should be well free to deny services on the basis of race, gender, religion, etc...) | Things don't have rights. A business is a thing. It is a mechanism whereby | one or more people get from here to there. It is analgous to a bicycle and | moving from point A to point B. While the people riding the bike clearly | have a right to get from A to B by any mechanism that doesn't interfere | with others it is a long slide into insanity to then say the bike has | equivalent 'rights'. You're wrong again Mr. Choate. | A business can refuse to serve anyone they desire for any reason, but the | market such a business operates in is not(!!!) a free market by any | definition that folks like von Mises or Hayek would recognize as such. Now | C-A-C-L proponents claim (of which this is just another example of their | hypocrisy or ignorance - take your pick [1]) that they want to create a | free market that is universal in all human activity. Clearly this isn't | possible operating under Tim and his supporters particular brand of 'free' | which is nothing more than 'freedom for me, not for thee'. A business has | the RESPONSIBILITY to refuse service to anyone which threatens that | business' operations. They also have a responsibility to make that | reaction as minimaly invasive as possible in all cases, no exceptions. Mr. Choate, please do not use the good names of Mises and Hayek in vain...if you are going to choose to sprout out ideas that you will be attributing to Autrian Economists, please have the decency to understand the works which you are allgedly writting about first. | There is no "..., but..." in free market or American democracy. There are always exceptions...for example, Mises and Hayek did not subscribe to Democracy in the first place...and a free market, as such can only exist when (yes, read the first paragraph again Mr. Choate) consentual exchange occurs. | [1] Never ascribe to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. Never fear Mr. Choate, none of us have ever thought you were malicious. --Gabe -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Mon Nov 5 03:48:52 2001 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:48:52 -0700 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: >The appropriate action is for the Guard's probably non-existent >equivalent of Police Department Internal Affairs to find out Apparently your reasoning has no common points with reality. What is approprate or not is irrelevant. What is relevant that armed thugs immitate bad TV with people that are not paid actors or network employees. Now it becomes apparent why all those reality pig shows - it was just the preparation step. Ridiculous as it may sound, Tim May of Corralitos was right - the only way to pose the right questions and have them answered is Pb poisoning. From mv at cdc.org Mon Nov 5 08:21:56 2001 From: mv at cdc.org (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 08:21:56 -0800 Subject: Freeman Dyson on Martyr Airlines Message-ID: <3BE6BCA4.7463A824@cdc.org> Recalling his boyhood in London, [Freeman] Dyson recounts how during the Blitz he lay in bed rejoicing in the delicious sound of buildings falling down. To the budding physicist and ardent anti-colonialist he then was, the imminent danger to his own person was nothing compared to the joy of hearing the great British Empire audibly crumbling. In one of the more frank commentaries I have read on the attacks anywhere, Dyson tells us that he can easily imagine the state of mind of the young men who so resolutely smashed those planes into the buildings. Almost I could have been one of them myself. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/laweekly/20011101/lo/29656_1.html From mv at cdc.org Mon Nov 5 08:26:36 2001 From: mv at cdc.org (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 08:26:36 -0800 Subject: DEA raid on med marij in Hollywood Message-ID: <3BE6BDBB.5D59E6B1@cdc.org> Thursday November 01 08:00 PM EST The Other War By Michael Simmons LA Weekly Writer Unable to find Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) or dismantle al Qaeda, the Bush administration has attacked an easier target  the 960 mostly AIDS (news - web sites) and cancer patients of the Los Angeles Cannabis Resource Center. Thirty agents from the federal Drug Enforcement Administration raided the West Hollywood center last Thursday. They detained eight patient/staffers for six hours and seized 400 plants, bagged marijuana and brownies, patient and doctors records, computers, and growing equipment. The effect on peoples health will be devastating, said center president Scott Imler, who has epilepsy. I dont understand why America is declaring war on its own. No arrests were made. The center remains open, but the dispensary is closed, forcing members onto the black market to receive their medicine. The basis for the raid is the long-standing state-vs.federal government dispute over who has say over drug laws. In 1996, California voters approved Proposition 215, which gave patients the right to possess medical marijuana. The federal government has refused to recognize the law in California and eight other states and Washington, D.C., which have passed similar medical-marijuana measures. Last May, the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled against the reopening of an Oakland club, a decision cited in last weeks search warrant. The centers leadership has yet to announce its legal strategy, or if it will try to restore its operation, which serves 960 members, 80 percent of whom have AIDS and use marijuana to combat wasting syndrome and the nausea from multiple medications. Another 10 percent have cancer, for which cannabis is a time-honored treatment during chemotherapy. The remainder suffer from assorted ailments, including glaucoma and multiple sclerosis. The center opened in 1996 with the help of the West Hollywood City Council and the L.A. County Sheriffs Department. I stand up in support of what Scott has been doing, Sheriff Lee Baca told the Weekly in 1999. Hes done an excellent job. The West Hollywood City Council held a news conference denouncing the raid. Asked West Hollywood Sheriffs Station Captain Lynda Castro: Wheres the sensitivity level? The centers supporters say the raid points up the folly of Americas drug war, and its lack of compassion. Other countries are setting more progressive examples. Four months ago, Canada became the first country to legalize medical marijuana. The Dutch, whove already decriminalized recreational use, announced this month that cannabis will be available by prescription. And the British are reclassifying pot in their least restrictive class with antidepressants and steroids. While the rest of the world moves steadily into the 21st century, the Bush administration is dragging its knuckles and America back into the Dark Ages, said Imler. A candlelight vigil will be held across the street from the center, on the corner of Santa Monica Boulevard and Gardner Street, at 5 p.m. Tuesday, November 6, the fifth anniversary of the passage of Proposition 215. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/laweekly/20011101/lo/29651_1.html ---- It would be a shame if these feds got cancer. Got Dioxin? From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 5 10:03:49 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:03:49 -0800 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying Message-ID: <3BE6D485.91A29AAE@lsil.com> What a shocker - put fascists in all three branches of government and we're seeing fascism practiced in our streets at the first opportunity. Maybe we have nothing better to offer, maybe it's just the best we can do with our atrophied principles. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 5 07:18:36 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:18:36 -0500 Subject: Typical Choatian Incompetence. [RE: WHDH-TV - Channel 7 - Boston - ...] Message-ID: The Choate wrote: > ---------- > From: Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com] > Reply To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 9:21 AM > To: hell at einstein.ssz.com; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: WHDH-TV - Channel 7 - Boston - New England News - FBI > searches for Ryder rental truck carrying suspicious cargo > > http://www.whdh.com/news/local1.shtml > -- > Of course, this URL points to the *latest* local news story. As I write, it concerns a local murderer. While it's good that the Choate no longer includes entire web pages as attachments, this link is useless as it stands. Peter Trei From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 5 10:34:40 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:34:40 -0800 Subject: American Schools Need Flattening Too Message-ID: <3BE6DBC0.3EC641B9@lsil.com> Eric Cordian wrote : > >Students in AmeriKKKan government-run schools have never had much freedom >of speech, since the courts have ruled that all administrators have to do >is mumble something about the "disruption" of the (laugh) "educational >process" and civil rights conveniently evaporate. > Let's see, agreeing by waving the flag is OK but disagreeing is forbidden. Just garden variety fascism. How many kids were suspended for the political speech that is wearing flags? >Still, there's something annoying when a high school student isn't allowed >to publicly question the War in Afghanistan. Contrast this with the >Vietnam War, before the police state had been racheted up to its current >degree of tightness. > Annoying is an weak adjective to describe training our children to accept censorship. They're a bunch of goddamned authoritarian shitheads. People who think that way would be perfect little middle managers in a Hitlerian Germany or the Cold War USSR. They deserve no place here. >Asscruft now wants life sentences for anyone yelling "Anthrax" in a public >place, or sprinkling talcum powder on their friends. "Zero Tolerance" >moves from the classroom to the rest of society. > Is that "cruft" or "crust" or would just plain dingleberry do? Or Himmler? >In other news, we have received credible information from several usually >reliable sources that some unspecified person or group might commit an >unspecified terrorist act against an unspecified target in the near but >unspecified future. We urge everyone to be on their highest alert, and >ignore anything that sounds like screaming children being cluster bombed. > I think that the dynamic in operation here is that maintaining the fear level will : 1) allow the USA PATRIOT machinery implementation to proceed as planned 2) delay legal assaults against the USA PATRIOT act As long as the fear levels are kept high, the "you're either with AMERICA or against it" cry can be used to protect the power grab. The longer the power grab persists the more difficult it will be to dismantle in the future. I'm not quite as convinced as Tim that the country is 100% fucked but we're sure as hell past the halfway point and running at full throttle. Undermining or Suspending All Protections Against Total Reversion Into Overwhelming Tyranny Mike From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 5 10:40:33 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:40:33 -0800 Subject: FW: Damn ! I wish I'd though ot fhis myself Message-ID: <3BE6DD21.918E51C6@lsil.com> "Karsten M. Self" wrote : >on Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 02:39:52PM -0800, Sandy Sandfort >(sandfort at mindspring.com) wrote: >> C'punks, >> >> Friend of mine sent me this. I like the poetic justice of it. > >Terminal velocity of dust is pretty low. > >Reports are that the bulk of the WTC debris are same. There are >structural components from the base of the towers, and debris from >neigboring buildings, which are more substantial. > All that dust might give 'em silicosis. >From the news footage it looks to me like Afghanistan is made of dust and rubble - why waste all that fuel? Just bury them in their own wreckage. >Frankly, a modicum of HE attached to a guided device is more effective >ordinance. > >There's a poetic sense to this, but not much military practicality. > Humor - it lightens the mood, makes the days go by quickly. Mike From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Nov 5 12:34:25 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:34:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: More Creeping Public School Fascism Message-ID: <200111052034.fA5KYPv12737@artifact.psychedelic.net> Here's the latest outrage from our country's government-run schools. Not only do school officials presume to stick their noses into what kids do on their own free time, away from school, but they think they can use lie detectors to pry into kids' private lives. Notice the collusion between the pigs and the school administrators. Pigs make lists of people, none of whom have been charged with any crime, and turn them over to school administrators, who have the power to take action with no requirement of fairness or due process. Note that nothing can be done about this unless a parent files a complaint. Kids don't have any rights in this country, except through parental proxy, and apparently all the parents in this town have the school superintendent's balls slapping against their chins. Schools got away with "Zero Tolerance" using a small number of school shootings as a pretense. Now we'll see what they can get away with using their increased FUD powers under the War on Terrorism(tm). These administrators need to be gutted and their heads posted in public view as a warning to others. ----- DUNLAP, Ill. -- One by one, the subjects were led into a room and hooked up to a polygraph machine. The purpose: to determine whether the teen-agers violated Dunlap High School's code of conduct by attending a party where alcohol was consumed. Seven of the 10 students who submitted to the lie detector exams -- all of them football players -- flunked the questioning last month and were barred from competing in the first round of the state playoffs. Some of their parents wept when they learned their children had lied to them. Dunlap High went to extraordinary lengths to get to the bottom of what was otherwise a routine case of teen-agers getting into trouble. School Superintendent Bill Collier said it was the right thing to do to sort the guilty from the innocent: "It may look bad, it may sound bad, but it's the fairest way." The investigation began after police broke up a party Oct. 6. Nobody was arrested, but officers took down the names of everyone present and traced the registration of all cars parked there. Their list of 15 athletes was turned over to school officials. Three students admitted guilt when confronted. But many others claimed that they had left the party as soon as they realized alcohol was present. So school officials proposed the polygraphs. Two students were suspended from the team after refusing to take the test, and seven more were suspended after flunking. Collier pointed out that three students were cleared who might otherwise have been punished. "For these three kids, this worked exactly the way it is supposed to work," he said. Dunlap High went on to lose the Oct. 27 playoff game 28-7. Mike Griffith, a policy analyst for the Education Commission of the States in Denver, said he has never heard of a school using polygraphs in such a way, and he called it an extreme measure. "But in the end," he said, "if the parents don't file a complaint and the school district is satisfied, it's a done deal." Matt Jones, an attorney who represented the students who took the polygraphs and their parents, said a lawsuit is unlikely, but parents may try to pressure the school board into changing its policy regarding parties. The students' names were not released by the school or Jones. Jones said the suspended players -- most of them starters -- had greater concerns than the outcome of the game. "Part of the disappointment is the public scrutiny and having their parents disappointed in them," the lawyer said. "With most of them, it's not about their participation but because they let down their team." Some in this central Illinois town of about 1,000 people 12 miles north Peoria have been openly critical of school officials. "You would think they have better things to do," said Mark Wade, a 1979 Dunlap High graduate. Wade said the drinking policy existed when he was in high school, and athletes and others were sometimes questioned about their weekend activities. He said students sometimes lied, and their answers were accepted; nobody gave them a polygraph. "That wouldn't have washed. The parents wouldn't have stood for it," he said. Collier and Jones said that before each polygraph session, held at the school board's offices, the students and their parents were taken aside. The students were asked to describe their actions that night. Before the examinations began, the parents were asked to leave to eliminate distractions. Afterward, the polygraph examiner went over results with the students and their parents. Collier described the scene as sad, with some parents shedding tears as they realized their children had lied to them and the school. The superintendent said getting the truth was more important than a football playoff game. "I do know kids and adults can't continue to tell lies," he said. "Parents need to do more communicating with their kids on real-life issues and find out what they're doing on weekends." -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From ingo.wies at aral.net Mon Nov 5 04:47:07 2001 From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net) Date: 05 Nov 2001 12:47:07 UT Subject: Offer 2001-11-05 Message-ID: <0000DB02.3BE69855@smtp.aral.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. For removal instructions see bottom of this newsletter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-: Siemens C45 orignal and brandnew!!! 200 pcs DEM 305 Siemens S45 400 pcs DEM 521 Siemens S40 600 pcs DEM 440 Siemens C35 silver edition 600 pcs DEM 195 Nokia 8210 euro spec, 1000 pcs DEM 428 Nokia 3310 original 600 pcs DEM 250 Ericsson T29 original 500 pcs DEM 305 Sony Z7 original 500 pcs DEM 541 Sony J70 original 300 pcs DEM 290 Sony J5 original 200 pcs DEM 255 Motorola P7389 150 pcs DEM 185 Samsung A300 500 pcs DEM 570 Motorola V50 light 500 pcs DEM 397 Ericsson GA628, white box 400 pcs DEM 68 Ericsson A1018 original 120 pcs DEM 87 Motorola V3690 tit light 1000 pcs DEM 375 Alcatel 302 white box unlocked 350 pcs DEM 137 Motorola M3888 white box unlocked 350 pcs DEM 88 Ericsson T68 original 100 pcs DEM 869 PSION Oganizers: Psion Revo Plus 16MB english version 3000 pcs DEM 530 min order 1000 pcs Also 966 pcs ORIGINAL english Nokia 6210 manuals for DEM 2p.p.!!!!!!!! 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If you receive this message through another e-mail address we have no way of removing you from our list unless you provide the original e-mail address contained in the full header of the e-mail message. If this information has been removed by your server(s) we cannot control this and, again, have no way to remove your e-mail address. Simply reply to this message with "REMOVE" in the subject line. We wish to fully comply with your wishes and all applicable state and federal laws. Your cooperation and patience in this matter are very much appreciated. Thank You! =============================================================== From ingo.wies at aral.net Mon Nov 5 04:47:08 2001 From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net) Date: 05 Nov 2001 12:47:08 UT Subject: Offer 2001-11-05 Message-ID: <0000DB02.3BE69856@smtp.aral.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. For removal instructions see bottom of this newsletter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-: Siemens C45 orignal and brandnew!!! 200 pcs DEM 305 Siemens S45 400 pcs DEM 521 Siemens S40 600 pcs DEM 440 Siemens C35 silver edition 600 pcs DEM 195 Nokia 8210 euro spec, 1000 pcs DEM 428 Nokia 3310 original 600 pcs DEM 250 Ericsson T29 original 500 pcs DEM 305 Sony Z7 original 500 pcs DEM 541 Sony J70 original 300 pcs DEM 290 Sony J5 original 200 pcs DEM 255 Motorola P7389 150 pcs DEM 185 Samsung A300 500 pcs DEM 570 Motorola V50 light 500 pcs DEM 397 Ericsson GA628, white box 400 pcs DEM 68 Ericsson A1018 original 120 pcs DEM 87 Motorola V3690 tit light 1000 pcs DEM 375 Alcatel 302 white box unlocked 350 pcs DEM 137 Motorola M3888 white box unlocked 350 pcs DEM 88 Ericsson T68 original 100 pcs DEM 869 PSION Oganizers: Psion Revo Plus 16MB english version 3000 pcs DEM 530 min order 1000 pcs Also 966 pcs ORIGINAL english Nokia 6210 manuals for DEM 2p.p.!!!!!!!! Siemens SL45 car kit comfort 100 pcs DEM 161 Siemens SL45 voice car kit 50 pcs DEM 289 Siemens S35 car kit comfort 250 pcs DEM 161 FUJI Digital Cameras: FUJI Fine Pix 1300 200 pcs DEM 410 FUJI Fine Pix 2300 200 pcs DEM 551 Fuji Fine Pix 2400z 200 pcs DEM 820 Fuji Fine Pix 40i blue or silver 500 pcs DEM 998 Fuji Fine Pix 4700z 100 pcs DEM 1383 Fuji Fine Pix 6800z 100 pcs DEM 1334 Fuji Fine Pix S1 pro 50 pcs DEM 5767 Please ask for prices. FOB Düsseldorf/Germany, subject is to prior sales. Best regards Ingo Wies Aral Mobilfunk Partner KMT GmbH Tel +49 2102 8747-254 Fax +49 2102 8747-269 =============================================================== If you have received this message in error, or wish not to be included on future mailings please forward your e-mail address of which we have sent this message to. If you receive this message through another e-mail address we have no way of removing you from our list unless you provide the original e-mail address contained in the full header of the e-mail message. If this information has been removed by your server(s) we cannot control this and, again, have no way to remove your e-mail address. Simply reply to this message with "REMOVE" in the subject line. We wish to fully comply with your wishes and all applicable state and federal laws. Your cooperation and patience in this matter are very much appreciated. Thank You! =============================================================== From xeni at xeni.net Mon Nov 5 13:05:12 2001 From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:05:12 -0800 Subject: More Creeping Public School Fascism In-Reply-To: <200111052034.fA5KYPv12737@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: > DUNLAP, Ill. -- One by one, the subjects were led into a room and hooked > up to a polygraph machine. URL? --XJ From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Nov 5 13:06:01 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:06:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: More Creeping Public School Fascism In-Reply-To: from "Xeni Jardin" at Nov 05, 2001 01:05:12 PM Message-ID: <200111052106.fA5L61d12815@artifact.psychedelic.net> > URL? --XJ http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-football-polygraphs1105nov05.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnation%2Dheadlines -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From jya at pipeline.com Mon Nov 5 13:17:43 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:17:43 -0800 Subject: *ill, *ill, *ill In-Reply-To: <3BE6D485.91A29AAE@lsil.com> Message-ID: <200111051823.NAA31283@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Seems to me that having people in public places armed with weapons is wonderful. Mostly hand stuff so far, but there were a few heavy MGs around Lower Manhattan for a brief period after D-Day. RPG launchers and backpacks filled with reloads is darned exciting compared to the usually attention getting couture. You see this good stuff in photos of foreign lands but seldom here at home where most of it manufactured but not worn around the neighborhood and at work and play. Well, sure gun shows show piddly fashion ornaments, but not the heavy killers. And air shows of WMDs are widely spaced, the best overseas. More needed at home, mix the warplanes with the airliners, good for protection and exciting for passengers and top guns alike. We get very sexy carrier fighters overhead producing hand pumps of drugged-carzed adorables, and even kids unhooked of Ritalin happily play at Stingering Army copters racing up the Hudson shuttling arm-chair generalas to and from West Point to the day's battleground at the television networks. Militarizing the United States at home finals brings into the open what has been going on in the national security closet since Pearl Harbor, the original world's greatest work of art. Do not indelicately use the F-word to describe this phenom, just dress up and enjoy flaunting your best and meanest attitude. Hate takes less muscle than love and a lot more expensively wasteful and cowardly armaments. *ill, *ill, *ill! It's so 7th Avenue. Not at all fascist, except like a darling *itler couture wind-up-doll. From jya at pipeline.com Mon Nov 5 13:56:21 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:56:21 -0800 Subject: FW: Damn ! I wish I'd though ot fhis myself In-Reply-To: <3BE6DD21.918E51C6@lsil.com> Message-ID: <200111051902.OAA25970@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Now, now, check your prejudice. So far there is no proof the Taliban had much to do with 911, nor bin Laden, nor the so-called 19 attackers. All we have so far is a niagara of news stories, most of them pulp fiction. Whatever investigations eventually turn up it won't be what we are ravenously consuming today, as news, as bombing targets. Most parties around the world are waving their prejudices in lieu of genuine knowledge of what led to the attack, who did, who is still planning more, what will be the weapons, what the guilty parties of offense and defense knew and when they knew it, and what part the frenzy about Condit and Shandra and the presidential election had to do with diverting attention, breeding envy, and numbing critical abilities. I figure a year from now none of the current suspects of offense and defense will be remembered after we are instructed in another way of being perfectly superficially prejudicial. Skin-tight shaved bodied, or their product replacements. From callsonly at yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 14:18:47 2001 From: callsonly at yahoo.com (callsonly at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:18:47 -0800 Subject: Diet Manufacturer Seeks Distributors Message-ID: <200111052218.OAA26618@ecotone.toad.com> Diet Manufacturer seeking Distributors for new Carbohydrate Blocker and Metabolism Booster. No Ma Huang No Caffeine Great Margins! Name Brand 120 Capsules from only $5.00 Serious Inquires call NOW 1-914-650-7283 ask for Art! START Making Money Today! From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 04:32:34 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:32:34 +0200 Subject: Business Rights and Free Markets References: Message-ID: <01a301c165f5$f24c63d0$5300a8c0@marcel> From: "Jim Choate" > A business can refuse to serve anyone they desire for any reason, but the > market such a business operates in is not(!!!) a free market by any > definition that folks like von Mises or Hayek would recognize as such. Plain BS. Please quote one Austrian school economist that agrees with you. > Now > C-A-C-L proponents claim (of which this is just another example of their > hypocrisy or ignorance - take your pick [1]) that they want to create a > free market that is universal in all human activity. Clearly this isn't > possible operating under Tim and his supporters particular brand of 'free' > which is nothing more than 'freedom for me, not for thee'. You're simply insane. You have no right to someone else's products. It's HIS products, and he's free to refuse to sell them to you, or to only want to sell them on HIS terms. Anything else means he's your slave. > A business has > the RESPONSIBILITY to refuse service to anyone which threatens that > business' operations. They also have a responsibility to make that > reaction as minimaly invasive as possible in all cases, no exceptions. More BS. By what contract do they have this responsibility? Mark From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 5 12:09:20 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:09:20 -0500 Subject: DEA raid on med marij in Hollywood Message-ID: > Sampo Syreeni[SMTP:decoy at iki.fi] > > > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > > >Unable to find Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) or dismantle al Qaeda, > >the Bush administration has attacked an easier target  the 960 mostly > >AIDS (news - web sites) and cancer patients of the Los Angeles Cannabis > >Resource Center. [...] > Even if it isn't such a pivotal point when the Rule of Law is concerned, > I'm wondering what kind of insolent, stupid, heartless bastrards these > people are? Even if there was no immediate medical reason for cannabis > use, it shouldn't be such a big deal if people with AIDS or cancer have a > little bit of fun once in a while. I mean fer-crying-out-loud, who on > God's green Earth is going to follow through with it if you set > AIDS/cancer as a precondition to legally getting high? > "A Puritan is someone who is desperately afraid that, somewhere, someone might be having a good time." - H.L. Mencken Peter Trei From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 5 13:44:36 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:44:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business Rights and Free Markets In-Reply-To: <20011105034701.W43409@neutraldomain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Gabriel Rocha wrote: > Please, oh please, actually read a little bit into that > wonderful process known as "the free market" and understand that the > very basic notion of the same is free consentual exchange between > two parties. Exactly, now think about 'free consensual exchange' and Tim's position. They are diametrically oppossed. I'll be sending a further note out this evening...you might try reading the reference (it'll be Hayek). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From freematt at coil.com Mon Nov 5 13:17:00 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:17:00 -0500 Subject: Uncle Sam Wants You...To think what he manipulates you into thinking. Message-ID: Note from Matthew Gaylor: An ongoing interest of mine is the use of propaganda to shape public perceptions. CNN's Capital Gang Bob Novak has a fascinating observation that fewer Americans joined the US military in Sept. 2001 than did in Sept. 2000. It may prove too difficult not getting swept into the tsunami surge of patriotic war fever- But it is vital that we recognize governmental media manipulation when it occurs- And let me tell you it happens often. And Margaret Carlson, the syndicated columnist, whom I seldom agree with, is on target this time with a choice observation on Pat Robertson. Interesting Outrages Via CNN's Capital Gang 11-03-01: >SHIELDS: And now for the "Outrage of the Week." In the days >following the September 11 massacre of civilians, the airwaves and >the newspapers repeatedly told us of military recruitment centers >filled with young Americans eager and ready to join the Army, the >Navy, Air Force and the Marine Corps. Not for the first time, the >press had it wrong. In fact, with the nation under attack and the >country's economy in recession, fewer Americans volunteered to join >the United States military in September of 2001 than did one year >earlier in September 2000 -- Bob Novak. >CARLSON: Yes. Recently, Pat Robertson told viewers, quote, "we have >not yet seen the Lord's judgment on America." I wonder what the Lord >would think of Robertson's Freedom Gold company, partly owned by >Liberia's President Charles Taylor. Besides torturing and gang >raping anyone who criticizes his corrupt regime, Taylor has armed >the Sierra Leone rebels, who in 1999 alone reaped some $75 million >from diamond sales to Osama bin Laden. Robertson's aide told the >"Post's" Colby King that he was just trying to spur economic >activity and spread the gospel. What gospel would that be? Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From wolf at priori.net Mon Nov 5 17:05:03 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:05:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > You ignoramus....'cruel and unusual punishment'. And that's the sticking point, isn't it? Who decides what is "cruel and unusual"? Are "truth drugs" cruel and unusual? Is torture cruel and unusual? What kinds of torture? Is Old Sparky cruel and unusual? Jim, there's a difference between "how it works" and "how it's supposed to work." -MW- From lawyer at visahlb.com Mon Nov 5 17:48:28 2001 From: lawyer at visahlb.com (Lawyer) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:48:28 PST Subject: US VISAS / BUSINESS SEMINAR - 247-0118 Multi-channel number Message-ID: <1412$999219783670864$10$0@exploder4.em5000.com> SUBJECT: US VISAS /BUSINESS SEMINAR Новый Телефон: 247-0118 (Москва) New telephone: 247-0118 (Moscow) Новый многоканальный телефон теперь готов принять звонки всех желающих. Не упустите эту возможность получения ответов на эти вопросы профессионалом в этих областях. Количество мест ограничено. Высокие гарантии в получении профессиональных США виз B, L, H. "Морилак Адвокатская Фирма" США/Флорида Объявление. Г-н Морилак - деловой адвокат по имиграции и бизнесу (профессор делового менеджмента) будет в Москве с понедельника по среду для ответа на вопросы, которые вы можете иметь по созданию бизнеса в США, получению профессиональной визы или инвестиций в недвижимость США. Г-н Морилак проведет семинары во Вторник и Среду (ноябрь 6-7) с 9:00 до 11:00; с 15 до 17:00; с 20:00 до 22:00. Стоимость 45$ на человека. Не упустите эту возможность получения ответов на эти вопросы профессионалом в этих областях. Количество мест ограничено. Высокие гарантии в получении профессиональных виз B, L, H. "Moriliak Law Firm" USA/Florida Announcement. Mr. Morilak a US Immigration and Business lawyer (and Prof of Bus Management) will be in Moscow (Russia) from Monday to Wednesday to answer questions you may have on setting up a business in the US, getting a professional Visa, or Investmenting in US properties. Mr. Morilak will have a seminars Tues and Wed (November 6-7th) from 9:00 to 11:00; 15:00 - 17:00; 20:00 – 22:00. Cost is 45 USD per person. Do not miss this opportunity to get your questions answered by a professional in these area...space is limited. � ------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, please click or copy and paste the following address into your browser: http://em5000.com/unsub.php?client=twisted_solo&listname=visa&email=cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7730 bytes Desc: not available URL: From antonline at gmx.ch Mon Nov 5 09:09:54 2001 From: antonline at gmx.ch (anton.raath) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:09:54 +0100 Subject: DEA raid on med marij in Hollywood In-Reply-To: <3BE6BDBB.5D59E6B1@cdc.org> Message-ID: <000001c1661c$b1cffd40$0100a8c0@mshome.net> :- Unable to find Osama bin Laden or dismantle al Qaeda, :- the Bush administration has attacked an easier target: :- the 960 mostly AIDS and cancer patients of the Los Angeles :- Cannabis Resource Center. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/laweekly/20011101/lo/29651_1.html Which is ironic in the light of findings in the UK: "The legalisation of cannabis for medicinal use has moved a step closer following promising early results from the world's first full commercial trial of the drug." http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiovideo/programmes/panorama/newsid_1 630000/1630948.stm "Tests sanctioned by the government were proving highly successful, and some patients were calling cannabis a 'miracle', the left-liberal weekly said, basing its claim on a British Broadcasting Corporation Panorama documentary." http://news.24.com/News24/Health/0,1113,2-14_1103731,00.html A! ===================================================== anton l. raath internet development & design http://raath.org/ Tel & Fax: (44) 706 113 1674 ===================================================== War is much too serious a matter to be entrusted to the military. ===========>>> Georges Clemenceau <<<== ===================================================== From freematt at coil.com Mon Nov 5 15:15:09 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:15:09 -0500 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? Message-ID: Note from Matthew Gaylor: Today I read two more disturbing stories of America's slip into police statism. The first is about a Illinois public school Nazi using a polygraph to ferret out the off school grounds activities of his students. See: . Dunlap, IL High School Superintendent Bill Collier said it was the right thing to do to sort the guilty from the innocent: "It may look bad, it may sound bad, but it's the fairest way." -- One by one, the subjects were led into a room and hooked up to a polygraph machine. The purpose: to determine whether the teen-agers violated Dunlap High School's code of conduct by attending a party where alcohol was consumed." And I worry what might be the next step in America if polygraphs don't achieve the desired results. The New York Times reports this chilling thought "In many quarters, the Newsweek columnist Jonathan Alter is considered a liberal. Yet there he was last week, raising this question: "In this autumn of anger," he wrote, "even a liberal can find his thoughts turning to . . . torture." He added that he was not necessarily advocating the use of "cattle prods or rubber hoses" on men detained in the investigation into the terrorist attacks. Only, "something to jump-start the stalled investigation of the greatest crime in American history." And the NYT continues: "One week earlier, on CNN's "Crossfire," the conservative commentator Tucker Carlson said: "Torture is bad." But he added: "Keep in mind, some things are worse. And under certain circumstances, it may be the lesser of two evils. Because some evils are pretty evil."". Now obviously giving children polygraphs and torturing terrorist suspects are very different, but what happens when the kids "crimes" are considered so heinous that stiffer measures are required? Considering the US government, public schools and other public institution's insane obsession with the war on drugs it is in my mind a hop, skip and a jump for them to come to the conclusion that torture, (like getting a teen drug pusher to revel his supplier) an acceptable technique. Perhaps it's important to dust off your copy of The Bill of Rights and re-read the 5th amendment which explicitly states that: "No person shall be nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..." See: I for one swore to uphold the US Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic and anyone who tortures suspects is someone I'd consider a traitor and enemy. Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 5 16:57:22 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:57:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: <7a283c92b80c431bb7fcf75856758d6f@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > However, this means that IF you have due process, then a person CAN be > compelled to be a witness against himself, and be deprived of life, > liberty and property. Hence using truth drugs or torture would be > perfectly constitutional if due process is used, according to the Fifth > Amendment. As a supporter of the Constitution you are now obligated to > defend to the death those who would torture prisoners, as long as they > first get a judge's approval. You ignoramus....'cruel and unusual punishment'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 5 17:38:42 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:38:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > Jim, there's a difference between "how it works" and "how it's supposed to > work." No shit, what was your first clue Sherlock? There is a long and strong history as to what is considered 'cruel and unusual', torture and that sort of crap was ruled unavailable long, long, ago. However, if you think about it a moment while positing that such behaviour is found to be allowable then the quesion of the 'United States' becomes moot. You do the math, if you can stop thinking like a victim. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 5 17:44:33 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:44:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets Message-ID: The question has been raised why a business which applies some 'entry cost' to a particular group removes that business from a 'free market'. What does it take to create a 'free market'? Hayeks says 'perfect competition'. What is 'perfect competition'? "According to the generally accepted view, perfect competition presupposes: 1. A homogenous commodity offered and demanded by a large number of relatively small sellers and buyers, none of whom expects to exercise by his actiona perceptible influence on price. 2. Free entry into the market and absence of other restraints on the movement of prices and resources. 3. Complete knowledge of the relevant factors on the part of all participants in the market." Individualism and Economic Order F.A. Hayek ISBN 0-225-32093-6 Chapter V The Meaning of 'Competition' The reality is that Tim's believe that he can refuse to serve a customer because they hold or perhaps practice some action that (while not involving him or his property directly, only his apparently fragile emotional ego) he finds offensive is within the bounds of free market econoimics is just plain crap. Hayek's views on fascism and socialism are well known, and not positive. What Tim proposes is nothing more than fascism at the individual level. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Mon Nov 5 20:17:54 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:17:54 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: <200111060417.fA64Hsb39337@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> Seems those opposed to the coming civil liberties crack down need to start employing some of the very same technology proposed to corral us. For starters how about PC FaceCam to punish sneek and peekers? Seems that if the data base of such a system were programmed to detect entry and descriminate family members or others who should have legit access to your property you could use it to deter their searches.(Probably a good idea to put a good UPS on the PC and FaceCam to thwart power interruptions, though why they would want to risk causing a tell tale time reset to one of you appliances I can't imaginge.) For example, you could hook a compressed air tank to a high frequency whistle via a control valve connected to you PC. Shouldn't be much of a problem reaching damaging or even lethal sound levels and might hard to stop once triggered. (Ever try find which one of your smoke detectors was triggering?) I once connected a buzzer in the center of a large wall-mounted array of flash lamps to an under-the-carpet pressure sensor to form a burgler bugger. When triggered the system would sound the buzzer for about 1/2 second, to attract the eyes of the burgler, and then fire. A few months after install our place was burgled and the thieves fled without taking any items, probably with some permanent retnal damage. Of course you could connect an automated firearm. (Crime Stoppers Note: aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. ks From info at giganetstore.com Mon Nov 5 12:56:43 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:56:43 -0000 Subject: Star Wars Message-ID: <08f7d43562005b1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> "MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU" A giganetstore.com tem o prazer de apresentar, Star Wars- Episódio I- A AMEAÇA FANTASMA - DVD , marcando o início de um novo olhar sobre esta fantástica saga... Faça já a sua encomenda e receba o seu DVD no dia 14 de Novembro! Esta é uma das muitas novidades que temos para si, existem muitas mais na giganetstore.com... Veja aqui! ----- Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5063 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 5 19:12:17 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 21:12:17 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Justice Department can't confirm how many detainees released - November 5, 2001 Message-ID: <3BE75511.EC89F32B@ssz.com> If these guys can't count, should they really be in charge of our country? http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/05/inv.detainee.numbers/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From k-elliott at wiu.edu Mon Nov 5 21:47:07 2001 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 21:47:07 -0800 Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104100738.02d76290@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011104112311.02dd0220@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: >At 02:41 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >>On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: >> >>> States are not prohibited from having a militia, the National Guard >>> is an organized militia, until such time they are federalized, at >>> which point they fall under the Army's Chain of Command. >> >>No, the can't except in cases of invasion. Can you not read? " No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of" _without the consent of congress_ Hint- the state's have congresses consent. -- ____________________________________________________________________ "...and so I screamed to the throne of heaven. He sat and listened till at last I fell to my knees exhausted, crying "why have you forsaken us?". Long he sat , then finally spoke- what man hath wrought I shall not break asunder." ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 ____________________________________________________________________ From decoy at iki.fi Mon Nov 5 12:00:41 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:00:41 +0200 (EET) Subject: DEA raid on med marij in Hollywood In-Reply-To: <3BE6BDBB.5D59E6B1@cdc.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >Unable to find Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) or dismantle al Qaeda, >the Bush administration has attacked an easier target  the 960 mostly >AIDS (news - web sites) and cancer patients of the Los Angeles Cannabis >Resource Center. Thank you ever so much for causing me to spray a perfectly good mouthful of Chilean Merlot all over my keyboard. Took me about half an hour to make the piece of crap work again. >The centers leadership has yet to announce its legal strategy, or if it >will try to restore its operation, which serves 960 members, 80 percent >of whom have AIDS and use marijuana to combat wasting syndrome and the >nausea from multiple medications. Another 10 percent have cancer, for >which cannabis is a time-honored treatment during chemotherapy. The >remainder suffer from assorted ailments, including glaucoma and multiple >sclerosis. Even if it isn't such a pivotal point when the Rule of Law is concerned, I'm wondering what kind of insolent, stupid, heartless bastrards these people are? Even if there was no immediate medical reason for cannabis use, it shouldn't be such a big deal if people with AIDS or cancer have a little bit of fun once in a while. I mean fer-crying-out-loud, who on God's green Earth is going to follow through with it if you set AIDS/cancer as a precondition to legally getting high? Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 From jokes at freeall.com Mon Nov 5 22:44:09 2001 From: jokes at freeall.com (Free4all Jokes) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:44:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joke of the Day! From Free4all.com Message-ID: <20011106064409.42918.qmail@web12401.mail.yahoo.com> --------------------------------- --------------------------------- If you do not want to receive this mail every day, please unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to the unsubscribe address. Your unsubscribe address: jokes-unsubscribe-cypherpunks=toad.com at boss.free4all.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume on Yahoo! Careers. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 759 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 5 21:07:51 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:07:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Distributed code (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:51:46 -0800 From: Bill Frantz To: coderpunks at toad.com Subject: RE: Distributed code At 8:14 PM -0800 11/4/01, Tim Ebringer wrote: >You might want to check out Erlang http://www.erlang.org - a programming >language designed to be all about communications and concurrency. >Programs in this language need not even be aware that they're >distributed. It's a functional language, though, so you might be up for >a steep learning curve if you've never used a declarative language >(Miranda, Haskell, Mercury, Prolog, Lisp...) You might also want to check out the E language . It offers distributed computation, encrypted communications, public key based identity, optimistic computation, and event loop concurency. Cheers - Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The principal effect of| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | DMCA/SDMI is to prevent| 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at pwpconsult.com | fair use. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From verba at rol.it Mon Nov 5 14:27:30 2001 From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:27:30 +0100 Subject: Verba Volant del 06-11-01 Message-ID: <1005002851@web2bk.logos.it> Verba Volant del 06-11-01, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com _________________ Quotation of the day: Author - Paul Val�ry http://www.logos.it/bio/paul_valery.html English - let us enrich ourselves with our mutual differences Italian - arricchiamoci delle nostre reciproche differenze Spanish - enriquezc�monos con nuestras mutuas diferencias French - enrichissons-nous de nos mutuelles diff�rences Portuguese - enrique�amo-nos com as nossas diferen�as m�tuas Brazilian Portuguese - enrique�amo-nos com as nossas diferen�as m�tuas German - bereichern wir einander mit unseren gegenseitigen Unterschieden Hungarian - gazdag�tsuk egym�st k�lcs�n�s k�l�nb�zos�geinkkel Finnish - rikastuttakaamme itse�mme kunkin erilaisuudella Catalan - enriquim-nos de les nostres rec�proques difer�ncies Croatian - obogatimo se na�im uzajamnim razlikama Czech - obohacujme se navz�jem t�m, c�m se li��me Dutch - laat onze onderlinge verschillen een verrijking zijn Emiliano-Romagnolo - fasem cumerz dal difirenzi ch'u i son l'on ma ch'eltri Furlan - insiorinsi das nestris diferenzis di scambio Latin - ditescamus mutuis diversitatibus Latvian; Lettish - bagatinasim sevi ar musu kopejam at�kiribam Occitan - enrichem-nos amb� n�stras difer�ncias Polish - wzbogacmy sie naszymi wzajemnymi r�znicami Romanian - sa ne �mbogatim reciproc din diversitatea noastra Slovak - obohacujme sa vz�jomn�mi odli�nostami Venetian - deventemo siori de le nostre difarense Sicilian - arricchemunni d' 'i nostri reciprochi differenzi Flemish - laat onze onderlinge verschillen een verrijking zijn Calabrese - arrichimuni di le nostre recipruche diffirenzi Reggiano - ram�m s� c�ll che al fa m�a cumpagn un cun cl'eter Ferrarese - dvant�n ricch d'il nostar recipruche diversit� Bolognese - f�n in m�d ed dvint�r pi� r�cc c�n �l n�stri difar�nz _________________ All languages, please click on this link http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=437 _________________ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:" From Napster at aol.com Mon Nov 5 20:54:47 2001 From: Napster at aol.com (Napster at aol.com) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 23:54:47 -0500 Subject: Napster of Porn Message-ID: Below is the result of your feedback form. 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If you do not wish to receive further mailings, please click below and enter your email at the bottom of the page. You may then rest-assured that you will never receive another email from us again. http//www.removeyou.com The 21st Century Solution. I.D. # 032950 ####################################################################### From declan at well.com Mon Nov 5 21:09:30 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 00:09:30 -0500 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 05:05:03PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011106000930.A11469@cluebot.com> On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 05:05:03PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > Who decides what is "cruel and unusual"? Well, hell, who decides what "speech" is, or "religion," or a firearm? (Is Politech speech, is Scientology a religion, is a stun gun a firearm?) The answer, of course, is that the courts decide, influenced to some extent by popular opinion and appointments to the federal bench. But arguing that torture (or, perhaps, truth drugs) is not somehow cruel doesn't get you all that far, at least not without the context of what courts have said in the past, if you intend your post to be predictive at all. -Declan From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Mon Nov 5 23:56:09 2001 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 00:56:09 -0700 Subject: enumeration Message-ID: All this talk about "government", "USG", "TLAs" etc is rather unprecise, vague and general. Can we compile a list of 100-200 persons that ARE the US government, maybe then we can examine the issues more scientifically ? 1. George mini-Bush 2. Collin Powel 3. Ashcroft, whatever the fuck's name is. 4. ... ... 200 From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Nov 6 00:57:40 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 00:57:40 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: <200111060857.fA68ve327902@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Seems those opposed to the coming civil liberties crack down need to start employing some of the very same technology proposed to corral us. For starters how about PC FaceCam to punish sneek and peekers? Seems that if the data base of such a system were programmed to detect entry and descriminate family members or others who should have legit access to your property you could use it to deter their searches.(Probably a good idea to put a good UPS on the PC and FaceCam to thwart power interruptions, though why they would want to risk causing a tell tale time reset to one of you appliances I can't imaginge.) For example, you could hook a compressed air tank to a high frequency whistle via a control valve connected to you PC. Shouldn't be much of a problem reaching damaging or even lethal sound levels and might hard to stop once triggered. (Ever try find which one of your smoke detectors was triggering?) Not recommended if you have pets :-) (I once connected a buzzer in the center of a large wall-mounted array of flash lamps to an under-the-carpet pressure sensor to form a burgler bugger. When triggered the system would sound the buzzer for about 1/2 second, to attract the eyes of the burgler, and then fire. A few months after install our place was burgled and the thieves fled without taking any items, probably with some permanent retnal damage.) Of course you could connect an automated firearm to the PC. (Crime Stoppers Note: aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Nov 6 01:03:40 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 01:03:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants In-Reply-To: from "Matthew Gaylor" at Nov 06, 2001 02:41:58 AM Message-ID: <200111060903.fA693eo13288@artifact.psychedelic.net> Matthew Gaylor alerts: > The ACLU needs to strongly condemn Professor Dershowitz's statements and > the best way to do so is by removing him from the Union. ] Professor Dershowitz has always walked a thin line between being a civil libertarian and being a apologist for Israel and Zionism. In all cases that I can remember where there was a conflict between the two, he was the latter. Israel tortures, and what's good for Israel, is apparently also good for the United States. Kind of like circumcision. If you can get everyone doing it, the chances it will be outlawed, or that you will be criticized for doing it, grow remote. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From nobody at dizum.com Mon Nov 5 16:30:04 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 01:30:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? Message-ID: <7a283c92b80c431bb7fcf75856758d6f@dizum.com> > Perhaps it's important to dust off your copy of The Bill of Rights > and re-read the 5th amendment which explicitly states that: > "No person shall be nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be > a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or > property, without due process of law..." > See: However, this means that IF you have due process, then a person CAN be compelled to be a witness against himself, and be deprived of life, liberty and property. Hence using truth drugs or torture would be perfectly constitutional if due process is used, according to the Fifth Amendment. As a supporter of the Constitution you are now obligated to defend to the death those who would torture prisoners, as long as they first get a judge's approval. From contactus at collectiondirectory.com Tue Nov 6 01:38:28 2001 From: contactus at collectiondirectory.com (CollectionDirectory.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 01:38:28 Subject: Attention Collection Agencies and Attorneys Message-ID: <200111060939.fA69d6H11856@ak47.algebra.com> CollectionDirectory.com is pleased to announce our new toll-free number 1-888-454-0944. Now Clients and Prospective Clients can call free of charge to locate Your Collection Agency or Law Firm. Collection Directory.com is also excited to introduce our new Vital Statistics page. http://www.collectiondirectory.com/Search_engine_Stats.htm See how we stack up against the competition in our search engine links. 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Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -Louis Dembitz Brandeis, lawyer, judge, and writer (1856-1941) CJ Parker http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709 http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM http://jya.com/cejfiles.htm "The True Story Of The InterNet" The Xenix ChainSaw Massacre http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/ WebWorld & The Mythical Circle Of Eunuchs http://www.technopagan.org/politics/webworld/ InfoWar: Final Frontier Of The Digital rEvolution http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/ Space Aliens Hide My Drugs http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1913 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vmodu at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 02:52:23 2001 From: vmodu at yahoo.com (vmodu at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 02:52:23 Subject: Investment Opportunites Message-ID: <200111060308.WAA28789@waste.minder.net> Dear Sir, Most respectfully. We write to invite you to the vast investment opportunities open here in Africa and Nigeria in particular. Such opporunities range from Crude oil products and liquified natural gas,gold, iron & steel, fine stones,cocoa,timber, sapphire,emerald,mica,marble butimen and others. These abundant natural resources needs to be highlighted to the World in taking Africa to the Global Economic stream. Africa is now the economic foundation of this age and good investor needs to tap quickly into this prosperity..... Other investment areas are road contructions,building,equipement supplies,banking,insurance,shares in good companies, furnitures,information technology etc... These are opened to be explored as the return/profit on your investment is very high as Nigeria is the 4th largest market in the world. Our focus is to bridge the gap between your investment decision with the the most practicable information for your success. We would appreciate your candid opinion. Partnership arrangement between us is most welcomed. Reply promptly for further details. Honestly yours, VICTOR MODU. Managing Partner From elyn at consect.com Tue Nov 6 00:09:14 2001 From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:09:14 -0500 Subject: enumeration References: Message-ID: <005e01c1669a$5381d960$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com> > All this talk about "government", "USG", "TLAs" etc is rather > unprecise, vague and general. > > Can we compile a list of 100-200 persons that ARE the US government, > maybe then we can examine the issues more scientifically ? > > 1. George mini-Bush > 2. Collin Powel > 3. Ashcroft, whatever the fuck's name is. > 4. ... I don't know how wise it is to put lists together. Several agencies have funny reactions to things like that, and start using terms like "targeting" et al. ;~) E > > ... > 200 > From callsonly at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 03:35:29 2001 From: callsonly at yahoo.com (callsonly at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:35:29 -0800 Subject: Diet Manufacturer Seeks Distributors Message-ID: <200111061135.DAA28617@ecotone.toad.com> Diet Manufacturer seeking Distributors for new Carbohydrate Blocker and Metabolism Booster. No Ma Huang No Caffeine Great Margins! Name Brand 120 Capsules from only $5.00 Serious Inquires call NOW 1-914-650-7283 ask for Art! START Making Money Today! From grocha at neutraldomain.org Tue Nov 6 03:36:35 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:36:35 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 07:44:33PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20011106033635.H43409@neutraldomain.org> On Mon, Nov 05, at 07:44PM, Jim Choate wrote: | What does it take to create a 'free market'? Hayeks says 'perfect | competition'. Here you go using a Good Name(tm) in vain...again. | What is 'perfect competition'? "Perfect Competition" is not an Austrian idea, in fact, it is an idea that has been refuted by many Austrians in the past as it is not characteristic of the real world. | 3. Complete knowledge of the relevant factors on the part of all | participants in the market." "Complete Knowledge" is precisely what Hayek was refuting when he proclaimed the idea of local knowledge, since no one can know at all times what happens all around him, much less the next person. | Individualism and Economic Order | F.A. Hayek | ISBN 0-225-32093-6 | | Chapter V | The Meaning of 'Competition' Did you actually read it? Or did you gather this information off of an Amazon book review blurb? | The reality is that Tim's believe that he can refuse to serve a customer | because they hold or perhaps practice some action that (while not | involving him or his property directly, only his apparently fragile | emotional ego) he finds offensive is within the bounds of free market | econoimics is just plain crap. Tim's refusal to service whoever he wishes is directly related to the free market. By the same token that Tim is free to not service anyone he wishes, so too is anyone who opposes this attitude free to not shop at Tim's shop. | Hayek's views on fascism and socialism are well known, and not positive. | What Tim proposes is nothing more than fascism at the individual level. Where do you get this stuff? Do you make it up as you go along? -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. From stevet at sendon.net Mon Nov 5 19:41:08 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:41:08 +0000 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? References: <7a283c92b80c431bb7fcf75856758d6f@dizum.com> Message-ID: <200111060509.FAA13489@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com): > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > However, this means that IF you have due process, then a person CAN be > > compelled to be a witness against himself, and be deprived of life, > > liberty and property. Hence using truth drugs or torture would be > > perfectly constitutional if due process is used, according to the Fifth > > Amendment. As a supporter of the Constitution you are now obligated to > > defend to the death those who would torture prisoners, as long as they > > first get a judge's approval. > > You ignoramus....'cruel and unusual punishment'. No problem. Wouldn't a judge be the one who decides what cruel and unusual punishment would be? And once there's a precedent... Well, it's easy to decide someone else's fate, eh? Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From stevet at sendon.net Mon Nov 5 19:43:55 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:43:55 +0000 Subject: Where The Torture Never Stops... References: <92d414a5be434858504813600398e7d1@freedom.gmsociety.org> Message-ID: <200111060509.FAA13519@divert.sendon.net> Quoting An Metet (anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org): > Steve squeaks: > > > > Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate." > > > > What could be more obvious? > > Isn't it obvious by now that this is just some trolling > faggot LEO? Should I be flattered or offended? > Just like the other one with the long drivel about how > jail was okay for the "suspects"? > Sounded like Jeff Gorden after a few beers. I think that his name is properly spelled "Gordon". Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 6 05:40:31 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 05:40:31 -0800 Subject: NBC, ABC and CBS sic feds on Replay TV 4000 Message-ID: <3BE7E84F.12B9ACD@sarin.com> Networks Suing Super VCR Associated Press Three major television networks are suing the maker of the first Internet-ready personal digital video recorder, saying the ReplayTV 4000 lets people make and distribute illegal copies of television programs. NBC, ABC and CBS filed a lawsuit Wednesday in federal court in California against Sonicblue, claiming the ReplayTV 4000 would violate their copyrights by allowing users to distribute copies of programs over the Internet. http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,48065,00.html From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 6 05:44:24 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 05:44:24 -0800 Subject: intelligence collection, tools Message-ID: <3BE7E938.B85D3D0@sarin.com> http://www.orgnet.com/hijackers.html From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 6 05:54:44 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 05:54:44 -0800 Subject: network topology and covert networks Message-ID: <3BE7EBA4.9CA0E77E@sarin.com> More from http://www.orgnet.com/tnet.html A covert network must meet three competing goals... 1.Establish efficient communication and information flow within and between many cooperating cells by minimizing path length throughout the network. 2.Limit discovery and monitoring of the network from outsiders by minimizing the number of communication links in the network. 3.Limit damage when a node is discovered or removed from the network by minimizing the number of direct ties each node has. Because of these constraints, covert networks have a different topology than normal social networks. Illegal networks tend to exchange efficiency for secrecy. From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 6 06:01:32 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 06:01:32 -0800 Subject: Dutch Police DoS Stolen Cell Phones With SMS Message-ID: <3BE7ED3C.34BD5F14@sarin.com> Dangerous precedent, eh? http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/171836.html Dutch Police 'Bombard' Stolen Cell Phones With SMS By Andrew Rosenbaum, Special to Newsbytes AMSTERDAM, NETHERLANDS 05 Nov 2001, 9:30 AM CST The Amsterdam police have been using short messaging system (SMS) missives to block the use of stolen cell phones, and while the campaign has been successful, mobile providers are concerned about the cost and bandwidth strain of the campaign. About four months ago, the Amsterdam police began cooperating with the national telecommunications provider, KPN Telekom. When stolen phones are reported, the police asked KPN to use for the phone to locate the telephone number. Then, every three to five minutes, the police sent SMS messages to the telephone saying, "Warning, this is a stolen telephone, using it is against the law  stealing it is a felony." The police send the repeated messages to an average of five phones every day. And, according to a spokesman for the law enforcement agency, the tactic is working. After conducting a three-month experiment with the SMS messaging, police found that illicit telephone theft declined by more than half compared to the average theft for the period. "When the stolen phone is bombarded with tough SMS announcements, it's not such a nice thing to have," says Ellie Florax, a spokeswoman for the Amsterdam Police. Pleased with these results, the Amsterdam police want to continue the program, but KPN is hesitating, according to KPN spokeswoman, Caroline Ubachs. "There are some financial and legal issues that have to be resolved," Ubachs says. First, the spokeswoman explains, KPN has to dedicate a certain amount of staff, computer time and bandwidth to both locating the phone numbers of these phones, and providing them to the police. "That costs a considerable amount," says Ubachs, who declined to say how much. KPN wants all the other mobile phone service providers to participate in the campaign as well. But those that the police have approached so far say they do not have the technology to locate phone numbers based on cell phone IDs. The Ministry of Justice now is working with the other providers to help them gear up for the move. Then there is an unresolved legal issue: it isn't clear, under Dutch law, whether police should be obliged to obtain warrants for these SMS "bombardments." Some Dutch civil libertarians suggest the campaign might be illegal under data protection laws. "It is almost certain that this would be the case in many countries," says Ubachs. Police spokesperson Florax insists that this is "a technicality which can easily be solved," but KPN wants lawyers to study the issue before it decides to continue the campaign. "With this strategy," says Florax, "we believe we can practically eliminate cell phone theft in this city." Reported by Newsbytes.com, http://www.newsbytes.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:11:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:11:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: <200111060509.FAA13489@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Steve Thompson wrote: > No problem. Wouldn't a judge be the one who decides what cruel and unusual > punishment would be? And once there's a precedent... Well, it's easy to > decide someone else's fate, eh? But you miss the point as to the meaning of such a decision... I'll give you a hint...'oath to protect and uphold'...'providing aid and comfort to the enemy'... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:13:14 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:13:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldiers in airports screening-out political dissidents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Kevin Elliott wrote: > Can you not read? > > " No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of" > > _without the consent of congress_ > > Hint- the state's have congresses consent. Exactly, now finish reading THE REST OF THE CONSTITUTION. There is one, and only one, way that Congress can do that. People really got to stop taking the Constitution one sentence at a time. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:23:51 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:23:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <20011106033635.H43409@neutraldomain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Gabriel Rocha wrote: > On Mon, Nov 05, at 07:44PM, Jim Choate wrote: > | What does it take to create a 'free market'? Hayeks says 'perfect > | competition'. > > Here you go using a Good Name(tm) in vain...again. No, you just don't want to admit you have no clue what Hayek was talking about... > | What is 'perfect competition'? > > "Perfect Competition" is not an Austrian idea, Where it came from is irrelevant. > in fact, it is an idea that has been refuted by many Austrians in > the past as it is not characteristic of the real world. Hayek refutes it in Chapter 5 himself. Of course it doesn't apply to the real world because you CAN'T create any of the three minimum conditions necessary of a free market. It's why Hayek also introduces the concept of 'imperfect competition'. You didn't read (understand) Hayek, come on, admit it... > | 3. Complete knowledge of the relevant factors on the part of all > | participants in the market." > > "Complete Knowledge" is precisely what Hayek was refuting when he > proclaimed the idea of local knowledge, since no one can know at all > times what happens all around him, much less the next person. But Hayek draws a distinction, which damns your argument because you ignore it, between 'competition' and 'information'. > | The reality is that Tim's believe that he can refuse to serve a customer > | because they hold or perhaps practice some action that (while not > | involving him or his property directly, only his apparently fragile > | emotional ego) he finds offensive is within the bounds of free market > | econoimics is just plain crap. > > Tim's refusal to service whoever he wishes is directly related to > the free market. No, it is related to Tim applying his bigotry. In a free market a seller has a limited number of factors they may consider. Cost to manufacture, cost at sale, difference in those prices and whether the market level is enough to stay in business. It's also worth noting that in regard to 'free market' the 'perfect information' is related to the product and the price in the market, not the seller or buyers personal beliefs or actions outside of the economic exchange. Please provide a quote from Hayek to support your claim of his meaning. Quid pro quo. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:29:33 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:29:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Can a 'free market' exist? Message-ID: No, the human psychology prevents it. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:36:03 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:36:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: What does 'free market' really! mean? Message-ID: Unless you sell hair products, their hair color/style is none of your business. Unless you sell clothes, what they wear is none of your business. Unless they are hungry, what they eat is none of your business. Unless they want to buy a book, what they read is none of your business. Unless they threaten the existance of your business, what they do is none of your business. .... The paradoxical/hypocrical nature of the proponents of C-A-C-L theories is the main sticking point for the theories. A little review will reveal them to be nothing more than 'freedom for me, not for thee'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:38:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:38:48 -0600 Subject: Magnetic Semiconductor Step Toward Quantum Computing Message-ID: <3BE7E7E8.A6E31E6A@ssz.com> http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1106015.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:39:42 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:39:42 -0600 Subject: Database On Terrorism Will Be Available To The Public Message-ID: <3BE7E81E.8D91284C@ssz.com> http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1106012.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 05:43:18 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:43:18 -0600 Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- UCLA Team Maps How Genes Affect Brain Structure, Intelligence; Dramatic Images Shed Light On Brain Diseases, Personality Differences Message-ID: <3BE7E8F6.71ACC860@ssz.com> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/11/011105073104.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mv at cdc.gov Tue Nov 6 07:46:00 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 07:46:00 -0800 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? Message-ID: <3BE805B8.10F6B225@cdc.gov> At 12:09 AM 11/6/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 05:05:03PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: >> Who decides what is "cruel and unusual"? > >Well, hell, who decides what "speech" is, or "religion," or a firearm? >(Is Politech speech, is Scientology a religion, is a stun gun a firearm?) Politech is a firearm, Scientology is a stun gun, Firearms are a religion. From troy at nack.net Tue Nov 6 08:00:33 2001 From: troy at nack.net (Troy Davis) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:00:33 -0800 Subject: FC: FAA.gov ran open mail relay, could let people forge FAA email References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011106084248.02b272c0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20011106080033.A10768@drip.tekniq.net> Seems to still relay: 10:15pm troy at mindfuck ~ > telnet 204.108.10.130 25 Trying 204.108.10.130... Connected to 204.108.10.130. Escape character is '^]'. 220-atos.faa.gov Microsoft SMTP MAIL ready at Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:59:42 -0500 Version: 5.5.1877.197.19 220 ESMTP spoken here helo narf 250 atos.faa.gov Hello [216.39.147.166] mail from: root at oz.net 250 root at oz.net....Sender OK rcpt to: joe at aol.com 250 joe at aol.com data 354 Start mail input; end with . narf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulhmerrill at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 08:31:48 2001 From: paulhmerrill at yahoo.com (Paul Merrill) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:31:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: enumeration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011106163148.67229.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Unfortunately, the "newsmakers" have minimal effect in the near term; the beauraucracies involved have inertia to beat the the band. (two examples: 1) Reagan killes the B1, so USAF created the Strategic Program Office, same people, same building, same contracts - when it was revived, renamed again to B1, same people, same building, same contracts. 2) Congress said no mor U2s, so USAF built TR-1s and didn't rename them to the U2 designation until the contract was complete. Same plane.) PHM --- Anonymous wrote: > > All this talk about "government", "USG", "TLAs" etc > is rather > unprecise, vague and general. > > Can we compile a list of 100-200 persons that ARE > the US government, > maybe then we can examine the issues more > scientifically ? > > 1. George mini-Bush > 2. Collin Powel > 3. Ashcroft, whatever the fuck's name is. > 4. ... > > > ... > 200 > > > ===== Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP * PaulMerrill at ACM.Org Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 6 09:19:51 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:19:51 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <20011106033635.H43409@neutraldomain.org> Message-ID: <7CF95F02-D2DA-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 03:36 AM, Gabriel Rocha wrote: > Tim's refusal to service whoever he wishes is directly related to > the free market. By the same token that Tim is free to not service > anyone he wishes, so too is anyone who opposes this attitude free to > not shop at Tim's shop. > > | Hayek's views on fascism and socialism are well known, and not > positive. > | What Tim proposes is nothing more than fascism at the individual > level. > > Where do you get this stuff? Do you make it up as you go along? > In Choate-Prime (aka Choate'), the parallel reality that Choate lives in, Hayek' practices this form of Austrian' economics. In our own reality, where history, physics, math, and economics are all as we know them to be, Choate is lost. In Choate' I hear he is quite well-respected, even on the Cypherpunks' list. When he travels to our reality, though, it is not worth our time trying to understand his communications about his reality. Bluntly, when Choate makes strange claims about math, history, physics, and economics, it's never worth the time to try to correct his many wrong-headed (in our reality) ideas and definitions. --Tim May "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler From jhurtado at kpmg.com Tue Nov 6 06:22:02 2001 From: jhurtado at kpmg.com (Hurtado, Jorge E) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:22:02 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <55CBCAAB439CD311B11300805F9FE652A0EC54@cobogexc02.co.kworld.kpmg.com> It's simple, go to the pc store and ask for a pc-tv, there are any prices and models. -----Original Message----- From: Claudio V. [mailto:claudio.vani at jumpy.it] Sent: viernes, 02 de noviembre de 2001 17:43 Jorge To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: Dear I ask you informations!!! I want buy an tv card for my pc!!! What card i must buy for look tele+ on my pc? Where i found the software for look tele+? I'm sorry for my english!!!! Thanks ******************************************************************************** The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawfull. When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this email are subject to the term and conditions expressed in the governing KPMG client engagement letter. ******************************************************************************** From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 6 09:45:28 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 09:45:28 -0800 Subject: "So this freedom is useless" Message-ID: <3BE821B8.C0F6C025@sarin.com> >From the "they don't get it" department: Brig. Gen. Khieu Sopheak said that although Cambodia's 1993 constitution protects the right to freedom of expression, "this kind of freedom of expression runs counter to the tendency of the international community and the interests of our country. So this freedom is, we can say, useless." What's he repealing his nation's freedom of speech about? T-shirts. http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAZ32FWPTC.html Clearly this cambodian twit needs to be harvested by cambodians. From roharra at earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 10:00:54 2001 From: roharra at earthlink.net (Harrison Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:00:54 Subject: The Secret Message-ID: <200111061800.KAA20888@toad.com> Learn how to make at least $5,000 a week. Discover the secrets of how to live a life full of pleasure, money, and free time! And do not think I am going to charge anything for this information.No! Act today and it is absolutely FREE for you. Its normal cost is $99.95, but for now I am just giving it away! Check my web site to see all the details. It is simple & easy to learn and best of all FREE! Check my web site: www.secrets2success.com/special135680 From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Nov 6 10:07:06 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:07:06 -0800 Subject: More Creeping Public School Fascism Message-ID: <3BE826CA.8FB4A031@lsil.com> Eric Cordian > >Here's the latest outrage from our country's government-run schools. Not >only do school officials presume to stick their noses into what kids do on >their own free time, away from school, but they think they can use lie >detectors to pry into kids' private lives. > >Notice the collusion between the pigs and the school administrators. >Pigs make lists of people, none of whom have been charged with any crime, >and turn them over to school administrators, who have the power to take >action with no requirement of fairness or due process. > They can only do what the parents allow them to do. I would have told the school to go fuck itself silly before I'd let them interrogate my kid. As far as I'm concerned off school time and grounds they have no say whatsoever. >Note that nothing can be done about this unless a parent files a >complaint. Kids don't have any rights in this country, except through >parental proxy, and apparently all the parents in this town have the >school superintendent's balls slapping against their chins. > >Schools got away with "Zero Tolerance" using a small number of school >shootings as a pretense. Now we'll see what they can get away with using >their increased FUD powers under the War on Terrorism(tm). > >These administrators need to be gutted and their heads posted in public >view as a warning to others. > Read about Vlad Tsepesh. In a private conversation with a recalcitrant administrator it's what I would suggest as reading material to be absorbed prior to decision-making... >----- > >DUNLAP, Ill. -- One by one, the subjects were led into a room and hooked >up to a polygraph machine. > >The purpose: to determine whether the teen-agers violated Dunlap High >School's code of conduct by attending a party where alcohol was consumed. > >Seven of the 10 students who submitted to the lie detector exams -- all of >them football players -- flunked the questioning last month and were >barred from competing in the first round of the state playoffs. Some of >their parents wept when they learned their children had lied to them. > >Dunlap High went to extraordinary lengths to get to the bottom of what was >otherwise a routine case of teen-agers getting into trouble. School >Superintendent Bill Collier said it was the right thing to do to sort the >guilty from the innocent: "It may look bad, it may sound bad, but it's the >fairest way." > >The investigation began after police broke up a party Oct. 6. Nobody was >arrested, but officers took down the names of everyone present and traced >the registration of all cars parked there. Their list of 15 athletes was >turned over to school officials. > >Three students admitted guilt when confronted. But many others claimed >that they had left the party as soon as they realized alcohol was present. >So school officials proposed the polygraphs. > >Two students were suspended from the team after refusing to take the test, >and seven more were suspended after flunking. Collier pointed out that >three students were cleared who might otherwise have been punished. > >"For these three kids, this worked exactly the way it is supposed to >work," he said. > >Dunlap High went on to lose the Oct. 27 playoff game 28-7. Mike Griffith, >a policy analyst for the Education Commission of the States in Denver, >said he has never heard of a school using polygraphs in such a way, and he >called it an extreme measure. > >"But in the end," he said, "if the parents don't file a complaint and the >school district is satisfied, it's a done deal." > >Matt Jones, an attorney who represented the students who took the >polygraphs and their parents, said a lawsuit is unlikely, but parents may >try to pressure the school board into changing its policy regarding >parties. The students' names were not released by the school or Jones. > >Jones said the suspended players -- most of them starters -- had greater >concerns than the outcome of the game. "Part of the disappointment is the >public scrutiny and having their parents disappointed in them," the lawyer >said. "With most of them, it's not about their participation but because >they let down their team." > >Some in this central Illinois town of about 1,000 people 12 miles north >Peoria have been openly critical of school officials. "You would think >they have better things to do," said Mark Wade, a 1979 Dunlap High >graduate. Wade said the drinking policy existed when he was in high >school, and athletes and others were sometimes questioned about their >weekend activities. He said students sometimes lied, and their answers >were accepted; nobody gave them a polygraph. "That wouldn't have washed. >The parents wouldn't have stood for it," he said. > >Collier and Jones said that before each polygraph session, held at the >school board's offices, the students and their parents were taken aside. >The students were asked to describe their actions that night. Before the >examinations began, the parents were asked to leave to eliminate >distractions. > >Afterward, the polygraph examiner went over results with the students and >their parents. Collier described the scene as sad, with some parents >shedding tears as they realized their children had lied to them and the >school. > >The superintendent said getting the truth was more important than a >football playoff game. > >"I do know kids and adults can't continue to tell lies," he said. "Parents >need to do more communicating with their kids on real-life issues and find >out what they're doing on weekends." > I actually teach my kids to lie. Whenever some form pops up on their browser they get pretty creative. The other day I overheard them making up stuff to enter : male, 36, from Austin, Texas. Not bad for such little sprouts. When ( not if ) my kids get in trouble over some 1st issue, they will be protected unconditionally and without reserve as to methods. >-- >Eric Michael Cordian 0+ >O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division >"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Nov 6 08:27:11 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:27:11 -0600 Subject: [TSCM-L] *BOOM!* Message-ID: All the civil lib talk regarding sneak and peek is radicalizing fringe groups and sensitizing them to countermeasures. Conversations of checks...vid -- and I strongly suspect booby trap talk. (I have a research interest in groups under surveillance/impression of surveillance.) The only booby trap I recognize is a "water bra." I hope guys doing surreptitious entry under increased surveillance powers are afforded better recognition training. No doubt some of you are important resources as to these matters, and I hope that your expertise is being sought. Below is a good case clip on vid. I disagree with the court's opinion in this instance, but I can't disagree with the risks in covert entry: @ http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ma&vol=sjcslip/8429&i nvol=1 "...Followed to its logical conclusion, the dissent would encourage drug manufacturers to mount hidden video cameras in their facilities so they can capture the moment of truth when the police execute a search warrant and would authorize drug dealers secretly to tape record conversations with suspected undercover officers or with informants in order to protect the dealers' rights against hypothetical police abuse. Numerous other examples exist. The point is an obvious one. Every police encounter would be available for secret recording..." ----- This judge is seriously behind the times. (Pardon the civie-female-hand-wringing. Just worries me.) ~Aimee ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 6 10:55:45 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:55:45 -0800 Subject: Stun Guns a Firearm? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 10:44 AM, Anonymous wrote: >> According to new federal laws, a non-lethal stun gun *is* in fact a >> firearm. Supposedly enacted specifically to keep felons from >> stun-guns, >> it seems geared more towards keeping the populace from self-defence. > > What! Care to elborate a bit more on this? When did this get passed, > and what else was made illegal? Paintball guns? Pellet guns? Rocks? Or > only rocks in a sock? > Tim is only too right -- this country is totally fucked. > As with all firearms laws, things vary widely from state to state (so much for the Second Amendment applying uniformly...it's as if the First Amendment varied from state to state...this will happen in the near future, I predict). In Massachussetts, for example, stun guns are illegal (according to a Web site on MA gun laws I found by typing "firearms "stun guns" " into Google. In California, they are legal, with some restrictions: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12650.htm "ARTICLE 7. STUN GUNS 12650. "Stun gun" as used in this chapter shall include any item, except a taser, used or intended to be used as either an offensive or defensive weapon capable of temporarily immobilizing a person by the infliction of an electrical charge. 12651. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person may purchase, possess, or use a stun gun, subject to the following requirements: (a) No person convicted of a felony or any crime involving an assault under the laws of the United States, of the State of California, or any other state, government, or country or convicted of misuse of a stun gun under Section 244.5, shall purchase, possess, or use stun guns. (b) No person who is addicted to any narcotic drug shall purchase, possess, or use a stun gun. (c) No person shall sell or furnish any stun gun to a minor unless the minor is at least 16 years of age and has the written consent of his or her parent or legal guardian. Violation of this subdivision shall be a public offense punishable by a fifty dollar ($50) fine for the first offense. Any subsequent violation of this subdivision is a misdemeanor. (d) No minor shall possess any stun gun unless the minor is at least 16 years of age and has the written consent of his or her parent or legal guardian. 12652. Each stun gun sold shall contain both of the following: (a) The name of the manufacturer stamped on the stun gun. (b) The serial number applied by the manufacturer. 12653. Unless otherwise specified, any violation of this article is a misdemeanor. 12654. Each stun gun sold in this state shall be accompanied by an instruction booklet. Violation of this section shall be a public offense punishable by a fifty dollar ($50) fine for each weapon sold without the booklet. " I've heard anecdotes from people who were hassled by cops when they wore their stun guns on their belts. Similar to what often happens to people when they openly wear knives, even though open carry is ostensibly preferable in many places to concealment. "Do not anger Happy Fun Court by openly exercising your rights!" Besides varying from state to state, local satrapies often have their own special laws about what their sheeple may own, carry, or use. --Tim May "Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" --Unknown Usenet Poster From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 09:00:32 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:00:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: FC: Correction: FAA.gov *still* runs open mail relay (fwd) Message-ID: Anyone up for a little game of "Warn The Public"? :-) -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 11:30:08 -0500 From: Declan McCullagh To: politech at politechbot.com Subject: FC: Correction: FAA.gov *still* runs open mail relay Previous (incorrect) message: "FAA.gov ran open mail relay, could let people forge FAA email" http://www.politechbot.com/p-02757.html I just verified this too. -Declan ******** From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 09:03:32 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:03:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? In-Reply-To: <3BE805B8.10F6B225@cdc.gov> Message-ID: > At 12:09 AM 11/6/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 05:05:03PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > >> Who decides what is "cruel and unusual"? > > > >Well, hell, who decides what "speech" is, or "religion," or a firearm? > >(Is Politech speech, is Scientology a religion, is a stun gun a > firearm?) According to new federal laws, a non-lethal stun gun *is* in fact a firearm. Supposedly enacted specifically to keep felons from stun-guns, it seems geared more towards keeping the populace from self-defence. Note also that the latest version of the stun gun, the first truly useful one, can only be sold to law enforcement officers, and not the public. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From piolenc at mozcom.com Mon Nov 5 19:08:16 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 11:08:16 +0800 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? References: Message-ID: <3BE75420.C62EC23@mozcom.com> An even more basic point is "punishment" - for what? These people are SUSPECTS, against whom no criminal act has yet been proven in open court. They are not yet eligible for punishment in any form. Marc de Piolenc Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > > > You ignoramus....'cruel and unusual punishment'. > > And that's the sticking point, isn't it? From jal at abulafia.com Tue Nov 6 12:25:47 2001 From: jal at abulafia.com (Jamie Lawrence) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 12:25:47 -0800 Subject: Bio-war laws are for other states In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106122044.020f3658@10.0.0.2> (Humor ahead) "We are above the law", a senior official states. "Most other nations have noticed that the U.S. defines the rules other states need to play by, but we do not and have not ever tried to give the impression that we will observe those rules." Meanwhile, the negotiations surrounding the torture of suspected innocents continues. http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr011030_1_n.shtml -j From baptista at pccf.net Tue Nov 6 09:46:50 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:46:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: FC: Correction: FAA.gov *still* runs open mail relay (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think it's silly. here we have a government which claims some understanding of the net yet most of their network infrastructure is insecure. and this open smtp relay is just the tip of the iceburg. a few years ago i scanned all military domain name servers for vulnerabilities under the old buggy bind4. A large number of military dns were found to be insecure. i then proceeded to contact these administrator to have them upgrade their servers in order to secure them. a handful did the rest just ignored the warnings. and i doubt much has changed today. silly happy government On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > > Anyone up for a little game of "Warn The Public"? :-) > > -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Tue Nov 6 11:00:04 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:00:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: An Metet Message-ID: dude, you are a Class A asshole. first you accuse someone of being a faggot. thats real nice, and endearing to the collective 'libertarian' standpoint. does his manliness offend you? knowing that he has enough for the both of you sorta makes things bad for you, i know. so buck up, little camper. some day you will even get 'pubes', and the guys in the shower wont laugh at you anymore. oh, then you accuse someone of being LEO. no he isnt. even if he was, he certainly would not last long with this attitude. because he wouldnt take any shit from mealy mouth sumbitches like yourself and his itchy trigger finger would just be shit hot to TCOB, know what i mean? if you had the choice to remove him from the planet... would ya do it? sure... we all know you would. with that in mind... lets get back to the pertinent subject matter, and not be hypocritical about what we think liberty is, ok? gatton From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Nov 6 13:46:39 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:46:39 -0800 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' Message-ID: WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The information that prompted a warning that terrorists might target a major Western bridge has been determined to be "not credible," two federal law enforcement officials tell CNN, and the FBI Tuesday is preparing to say no threat exists. "There just wasn't anything to it," said one official. A second official agreed, and says local law enforcement agencies are about to be notified of that conclusion. [...] >From http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/inv.bridge.threat/index.html Snort. What are the chances that the National Guard remains on patrol at the bridges "in the interest of safety"? From inc at fastmedia.net Mon Nov 5 19:04:51 2001 From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:04:51 +1100 Subject: classified Message-ID: <20011106140451.1b4129ff.inc@fastmedia.net> below is perhaps related to... http://www.google.com/search?q=prescott+bush+nazi * * * Bush restricts presidential records Executive order stuns advocates of open government ASSOCIATED PRESS WASHINGTON, Nov. 1 - President Bush issued an order Thursday night that lets past presidents, beginning with Ronald Reagan, keep some of their White House papers private even after the 12-year wait now required by law. Advocates for government declassification expressed disbelief and said the order would usher in a new era of government secrecy. ABOUT 68,000 pages of Reagan's White House records, including the vice presidential papers from President Bush's father, were supposed to have been opened in January, 12 years after Reagan left office, as provided by law. But the White House delayed the release three times to review constitutional and legal questions. White House counsel Alberto Gonzales defended Bush's executive order Thursday and did not say when or whether the Reagan papers would be opened to the public. Vanderbilt University historian Hugh Graham said the draft was a "real monster" and complained, "They would reverse an act of Congress with an executive order." Bruce Craig, director of the National Coordinating Committee for the Promotion of History, said it was "blatantly unlawful top to bottom." He predicted a quick legal challenge. The issue likely will come up Tuesday at a House Government Reform subcommittee hearing, initially scheduled before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Reagan's records were to have been the first released under the 1978 Presidential Records Act, which followed Watergate and former President Richard Nixon's attempts to hold on to his papers and tape recordings. It made presidential records the property of government, not ex-presidents. KEY ISSUE: EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE Under the act, presidential records are to be released after 12 years, except for those withheld for national security or certain personal reasons specified by law. A former president can still claim executive privilege to prevent the release of certain documents, but the sitting president has the final say. Under Bush's executive order, the sitting president could not override a former president's claim of executive privilege. Those claims of executive privilege, however, could be appealed in court, Gonzales said. "It will not be driven by politics or what looks good. It will be driven by what is allowed under the Constitution," Gonzales said. "Look, we haven't withheld a single document yet. There's been a delay, no question about it, but there has been no decision not to release a document. Let's see how this process works." FEAR OF EMBARRASSMENT Some historians said they suspected that the Bush White House was worried about what the Reagan papers might reveal about officials now working for Bush who also worked for Reagan. Among them are Secretary of State Colin Powell, budget director Mitch Daniels and Chief of Staff Andrew Card. Gonzales said that was not the reason. "There may, in fact, be embarrassing documents," he said, but he added that that would not be considered a legitimate reason to withhold something. Some historians suggested that the White House was using heightened public interest in national security as a screen to clamp down on the release of presidential papers. Craig said the Bush White House might be worried that the war on terrorism could generate documents it would rather not see exposed down the road. "Everybody is in agreement that materials that can be used by terrorists to threaten national security should be closed up," Craig said. "There already are existing laws and exemptions that keep that kind of stuff closed up. "This is about confidential information - communication between a president and top people - that they would simply prefer not to be released to the public." From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Nov 6 14:11:07 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:11:07 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <7CF95F02-D2DA-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: Tim wrote: > Bluntly, when Choate makes strange claims > about math, history, physics, and > economics, it's never worth the time to > try to correct his many wrong-headed (in > our reality) ideas and definitions. And the real pisser is that he's also useless as a reliable, 180-degrees-out-of-phase, reverse indicator. Apparently, Choate' (aka, Inchoate reality) shares just enough commonality with the real world that he occasionally (albeit, rarely) gets something right. (See my previous comment about blind squirrels and acorns.) S a n d y _____________________________________________________________ If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority? W W \*\ /*/ The Road Kill Group |*| |*| /*////|\\\\*\ |\- (|||||||||||||\((x)\ -======-------------||---:> (|||||||||||||/((x)/ \*\\\\|////*/ |/- |*| |*| /*/ \*\ M M From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Nov 6 14:36:24 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:36:24 -0800 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' Message-ID: <3BE865E8.108350D5@lsil.com> "A. Melon" wrote : > >WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The information that prompted a warning that >terrorists might target a major Western bridge has been determined to be >"not credible," two federal law enforcement officials tell CNN, and the >FBI Tuesday is preparing to say no threat exists. > >"There just wasn't anything to it," said one official. > >A second official agreed, and says local law enforcement agencies are >about to be notified of that conclusion. > >[...] > >>From http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/inv.bridge.threat/index.html > >Snort. What are the chances that the National Guard remains on patrol at >the bridges "in the interest of safety"? > Like it mattered at all that they were there? Except for the superficial effect of comforting the poor scared sheep I didn't see anything effective, I didn't see anyone searching trucks or opening car trunks. Form over function. Same as airport security. Psyops. Like the warnings to keep people off balance. Should we start a pool to see who can guess when ashcruft will put everyone 'on highest alert' next? It'll probably line up with an ACLU attack on the USAmaPATriarchalRIOT act. Only a commie traitor could object to le power grabs at a time when alerts are clearly critical to the survival of the entire nation and its way of life! From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Nov 6 14:47:14 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:47:14 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets Message-ID: <3BE86872.9FDE34F9@lsil.com> "Sandy Sandfort" wrote : >Tim wrote: > >> Bluntly, when Choate makes strange claims >> about math, history, physics, and >> economics, it's never worth the time to >> try to correct his many wrong-headed (in >> our reality) ideas and definitions. > >And the real pisser is that he's also useless as a reliable, >180-degrees-out-of-phase, reverse indicator. Apparently, Choate' (aka, >Inchoate reality) shares just enough commonality with the real world that he >occasionally (albeit, rarely) gets something right. (See my previous >comment about blind squirrels and acorns.) > Would that be the one where overachieving acorns transcend their humble station and aggressively hunt down blind squirrels in order to consummate their fate and achieve oneness with the cosmos? Lucky squirrels. > > S a n d y > Mike From stevet at sendon.net Tue Nov 6 06:50:00 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:50:00 +0000 Subject: First Polygraphs and Then Torture? References: <200111060509.FAA13489@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: <200111061526.PAA04255@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com): > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Steve Thompson wrote: > > > No problem. Wouldn't a judge be the one who decides what cruel and unusual > > punishment would be? And once there's a precedent... Well, it's easy to > > decide someone else's fate, eh? > > But you miss the point as to the meaning of such a decision... > > I'll give you a hint...'oath to protect and uphold'...'providing aid and > comfort to the enemy'... Since I'm ignorant of the finer points of American Law, you'll have to be less vague if you wish me to see the point which you're presenting. Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Tue Nov 6 15:17:02 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 15:17:02 PST Subject: Big Interest Rate Cut & More! Message-ID: <200111062322.XAA50391@s0287.pm0.net> +>+>+> FREE 21 DAY TRIAL - ARE YOUR INVESTMENTS LOSING THEIR VALUE? Hear what Jim Shepherd, one of the world's highest compensated stock market strategists, is telling subscribers whose portfolios have gained over 33% in safe investments in the last two years. Click Here For A 21-Day FREE trial http://opt-influence.com/c/pl.cgi?jasm2 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT - NOVEMBER 7, 2001 Please e-mail us if you are interested in advertising to our 150,000 Subscribers. mailto:info at spotm.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Hello All Investors, Stocks soared Tuesday after the Fed targeted the weakening economy with an aggressive half-percentage point cut in interest rates. Techs led the charge, highlighted by a 17-percent surge in shares of Hewlett-Packard as its merger with Compaq was dealt a major blow. The rate cut was the central bank's tenth this year, and it took the overnight fed funds rate down to 2 percent from 6.5 percent at the start of the year. The Fed also lowered the discount rate by 1/2 percentage point, taking it to 1.50 percent. Moreover, the Fed suggested that more rate cuts are in the offing. The Dow Jones Industrial Average piled on 150 points, or 1.6 percent, to 9,591. Sustaining the Dow were shares of Hewlett-Packard, Intel, IBM, Microsoft, J.P. Morgan Chase, Alcoa, Caterpillar, Home Depot and United Technologies. Ending in the minus column were shares of Walt Disney, General Motors, 3M and SBC Communications. The Nasdaq Composite surged 41 points, or 2.3 percent, to 1,835 while the Nasdaq 100 Index soared 42 points, or 2.9 percent, to 1,523. In the broad market, the Standard & Poor's 500 Index sprinted 1.5 percent while the Russell 2000 Index of small-capitalization stocks swelled 1.2 percent. TALK ABOUT FAMILY SQUABBLES... Hewlett-Packard powered the Dow, with its shares surging 17 percent following news that the Hewlett family would vote against the proposed H-P and Compaq merger, which was announced in early September. The family has a stake of about 5 percent in the Dow stock. H-P has yet to say when it plans to put the proposal to a shareholder vote. Compaq fell 5.3 percent. +>+>+> PLEASE READ - EIGHT REASONS TO LOVE SMALL CAP STOCKS http://www.fool.com/foolish8/2001/foolish8011023.htm +>+>+> TO VIEW OUR TWO DAILY STOCK PICKS BY HARRY AND BRUCE - Please go to our website http://www.wallstreetuniverse.com PEACE - Steven Schwartz and Staff mailto:support at wallstreetuniverse.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://inbound.postmastergeneral.com/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.rwx.37kh From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 13:20:14 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:20:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Stun Guns a Firearm? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > In California, they are legal, with some restrictions: > > http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12650.htm > > "ARTICLE 7. STUN GUNS > 12650. "Stun gun" as used in this chapter shall include any item, except > a taser, used or intended to be used as either an offensive or defensive ^^^^^^^^^ "Taser" is the stun gun to which I was referrring as unsaleable (is that a word?) to mere civilians. Additionally, I was referring to federal law, rather than state law, since (as we have seen in California's medical marijuana clinics) state laws are meaningless in the face of federal laws. I have left a message on an answering machine for regarding Anonymous' question for a citation, and will forward it when I receive a return call. The Taser issue is one I very recently (~2 months ago) researched, as I had planned to acquire and [openly] carry one. So much for that... > I've heard anecdotes from people who were hassled by cops when they wore > their stun guns on their belts. Similar to what often happens to people > when they openly wear knives, even though open carry is ostensibly > preferable in many places to concealment. Just imagine the hassle the BATF is in a position to dole out. > "Do not anger Happy Fun Court by openly exercising your rights!" We have rights? When did _that_ haapen? > --Tim May -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmself at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 6 16:22:34 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:22:34 -0800 Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: <3BE8723F.489624BD@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:29:03PM -0600 References: <3BE8723F.489624BD@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20011106162234.I361@navel.introspect> on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:29:03PM -0600, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com) wrote: > http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/06/2028252.shtml Big Biz sues helpful guy, and somewhat wins. Eric's side of the story is here: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/erics_commentary.html Exerpts: What Happened to MathWorld It is no secret that one consequence of the explosion in the popularity of the internet and related electronic technologies is that many battles will be fought over how information is created, stored, and accessed. It is equally clear that we all have a stake in how these battles are decided. Below is an account of one such battle--the lawsuit served on me and Wolfram Research in the spring of 2000 by CRC Press LLC, a publisher that generations of scientists used to know as the Chemical Rubber Company. This lawsuit was instigated by CRC Press after I had contracted with them to print and distribute a "snapshot" of my math web site in book form. My goal in recounting how that contract went awry is to give others an opportunity to learn less painfully what I have learned--especially about the deep cultural divide that appears to be opening up between most, but I hope not all, book publishers and their potential customers and authors. In particular, many publishers seem unable to understand a new generation for whom dynamic web sites are rapidly becoming a primary medium--sometimes coequal with books, sometimes preferred over books--for gathering, extending, and sharing knowledge. [...] How MathWorld Came to Be I began collecting the material now found in MathWorld when I was in high school and continued the project as a college student in the late 1980s. As I collected the material, I stored my notes on my state-of-the-art Mac Plus personal computer and started sharing my collections of math and science facts with friends. "Eric's Treasure Trove of Mathematics," the predecessor site to MathWorld, first went online in 1995 when I was a graduate student in planetary astronomy at the California Institute of Technology. As the site became more widely known and used, dozens of contributors offered new entries. Hundreds of others from around the world offered technical advice, criticism, and kind messages. The web site was in a constant state of evolution. It was a hugely rewarding experience. The growing volume of comments and submissions from the diverse community of users made clear that what had started as a labor of love for me was becoming a major math and science resource for thousands, just as I had hoped. The Book: A "Snapshot" of the Evolving Web Site As the web site grew, I came to believe that a snapshot of its contents in printed form could be useful. I myself do not always have a computer at my fingertips. A book would also make the material accessible to precollege educators and people less comfortable with (or without access to) the internet. (For some of you it may require some imagination to conjure up the dark ages of 1995, when web browsers were in their infancy and email was hardly the mass phenomenon it has since become.) [...] Tales of warm friendships between famous authors and their longtime editors are legendary. I imagined that publishers must have a natural interest in retaining the good will of their authors, especially authors of works likely to be revised and reissued in new editions. When CRC agreed to publish the book, I therefore gave limited scrutiny to the boilerplate [38]publishing agreement they provided--especially since my editor, Bob Stern, characterized the contract as "very straight forward [sic] and easily understood." He assured me that its language and terms were standard in the publishing business. So I signed it. Lesson #1 (Where have you heard this before?): Never sign a contract until you feel that you understand and agree with, or at least accept, every clause in it. If you are not sure of the meaning or implications of any phrase or provision, find a lawyer experienced in your kind of project and take the lawyer's advice! (This lesson should be read repeatedly and committed to memory.) Also consult with authors' organizations, and make use of helpful online resources such as Wilfred Hodges's [39]mathematical copyright web page, a public page devoted to copyright issues in mathematical publications. CRC's agreement defined the contracted "Work" as "approximately 1400 camera-ready manuscript pages and includ[ing] approximately 1200 camera-ready illustrations to yield a completed work of approximately 1408 printed pages[.]" I understood this to mean that I was assigning to CRC the right to publish the typeset camera-ready text I had offered them. The Web Site and Its Relationship to Book Sales In late October or early November 1998, as the book adaptation neared final production, I received a phone call from Mr. Stern. Throughout this pre-publication period, my web site had been receiving a great deal of attention. I had posted on the web site an announcement of the imminent appearance of the CRC book; that announcement appeared to be generating a significant number of pre-release sales for the book. I thought things were going very well. But now Mr. Stern was on the phone asking me to remove portions of the web site content in order to create greater incentives for online users to purchase the book. [...] So I told Mr. Stern that I felt the web site was, on balance, creating sales for the book, not suppressing them. I was very reluctant to restrict free access to any contents of the web site. However, in November 1998, against my better judgment, I began to comply with Mr. Stern's request. At first I did this by randomly choosing a set of letters of the alphabet each day and blocking all entries starting with those letters. That way, some inconvenience was introduced into use of the web site, but no material remained blocked for long. [...] I began work at Wolfram Research on June 1, 1999. Stephen Wolfram and others suggested that the web site ought to give its users the ability to locate information based on a custom-tailored subject classification. A number of Wolfram Research staff joined me in developing an intuitive and powerful new graphical user interface that greatly enhanced the usefulness of the burgeoning content of the math web site. [...] CRC Fails to Promote the Book When the book was first released, CRC promoted it with what I thought was some vigor. However, as the months passed I grew increasingly disappointed with their efforts. Less than a year after its release, the book ceased appearing in CRC mailings that I received, including special ones for its "Most Popular Math Titles." I was also greatly disappointed that CRC had raised the price of the book twice within its first year, from the original $65, to $79.95, to $99.95. This seemed to undermine our original strategy of keeping the price low enough for students to afford. And it appeared to me that CRC had done little to get the book into bookstores. In fact, to date, I have only seen the book carried in a single bookstore: the campus bookstore of my highly atypical alma mater, the California Institute of Technology. CRC Sues Eric and Wolfram Research At the end of this conversation, Mr. Stern changed the topic. He told me that he had heard that my web site was now located at a Wolfram Research web address. [...] On March 8, 2000, I was greatly surprised when, after returning from lunch, I was informed that a sheriff's deputy was waiting for me in the Wolfram Research lobby. I was even more dismayed when he served me with a document naming me and my employer as defendants in a Federal copyright violation lawsuit. [...] How the Tail Came to Wag the Dog In their lawsuit, CRC claimed that the existence of the MathWorld web site "competes with and interferes and impairs with [sic] sales of the Concise Encyclopedia." They sought monetary damages from Wolfram Research. From me, they sought "not less than the advance and all royalties earned by Weisstein"--everything, in short, that they had ever paid me! Apparently impervious to irony, CRC at the same time acknowledged in its own court filing that the book was the company's best-selling mathematics title! (This, one month after Mr. Stern had "explained" to me that my book was a back list item that I should not be surprised to see dropped from its promotional materials.) Arguments that the web site was hurting sales of the book, in CRC's subsequent [43]motion to force us to shut down the web site, were completely contrary to the facts as I knew them and as I had tried repeatedly to explain to Mr. Stern. [...] And CRC also claimed, with a straight face, that "[44] ...the public will suffer no injury from a preliminary injunction because the Encyclopedia will continue to be available without interruption, from CRC Press". This argument, in particular, confirmed my worst fears that CRC's representatives had never understood the nature of my web site. They were blind to the interests of the thousands of you in our online community who had helped expand and improve it. They seemed completely oblivious of the fact that without you, there might not have been a book worth publishing. [...] Settling the Case [...] In addition to its "instant win," CRC will be paid annually for books they don't sell, according to a formula that both sides have accepted--although we continue to believe that any past or future failure to achieve projected sales is far more plausibly attributed to CRC's abysmal marketing efforts than to any abuse of the web site by people who want to have and hold snapshots of its contents. But in this life we do what we have to do--and what we are willing to do. There are a few other consequences of the settlement which are of interest to MathWorld readers. The first is that a copyright statement "© 1999 CRC Press LLC" (in addition of the © 1999-2001 Wolfram Research, Inc. notice) now appears at the bottom of MathWorld entries that have a corresponding article in CRC's printed shapshot. Despite the fact the I (or volunteer contributors) wrote these entries, that CRC Press did nothing to support their creation or the creation of the web site in which they appear, and the fact that they existed in the web site long before they ever appeared in the printed version, the tail has truly come to wave this dog, and this copyright statement will henceforth be a constant reminder of this fact. Another important change is that, as part of the settlement agreement, CRC Press will now be given permission to create editions of the printed book based on future snapshots of the web site. As a result, CRC insisted that broad reproduction rights to all contributed material be secured. Furthermore, if we are not able to secure such rights, then Wolfram Research and I, at our own expense, must rewrite the entries in question from scratch for CRC to reproduce. This makes it extremely difficult for us to include any new contributed material on the web site unless we first secure permissions using CRC's [45]boilerplate permissions form. This form is endorsed by neither Wolfram Research nor myself, but as part of the settlement agreement, we are required to ask contributors to sign it. Since our goal is and always has been to provide your contributions on-line to the worldwide math community, we sincerely apologize for any inconvenience or imposition this CRC-mandated form may cause you. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ign at ign.com Tue Nov 6 16:39:29 2001 From: ign at ign.com (ign at ign.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:39:29 PST Subject: New IGN.COM Service Announcement! References: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9035 bytes Desc: not available URL: From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 14:47:12 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:47:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' In-Reply-To: <3BE865E8.108350D5@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Only a > commie traitor could object to le power grabs at a time when alerts are > clearly critical to the survival of the entire nation and its way of > life! You forgot to mention that it was also "for the sake of the children" :-) -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmself at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 6 17:28:09 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:28:09 -0800 Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:48:29PM -0600 References: <20011106162234.I361@navel.introspect> Message-ID: <20011106172808.A24595@navel.introspect> on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:48:29PM -0600, measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) wrote: > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > > > Apparently impervious to irony, CRC at the same time acknowledged in > > its own court filing that the book was the company's best-selling > > mathematics title! (This, one month after Mr. Stern had "explained" > > to me that my book was a back list item that I should not be > > surprised to see dropped from its promotional materials.) > > > > > In addition to its "instant win," CRC will be paid annually for > > books they don't sell, according to a formula that both sides have > > accepted--although we continue to believe that any past or future > > failure to achieve projected sales is far more plausibly attributed > > to CRC's abysmal marketing efforts than to any abuse of the web site > > > > > Another important change is that, as part of the settlement > > agreement, CRC Press will now be given permission to create editions > > of the printed book based on future snapshots of the web site. As a > > result, CRC insisted that broad reproduction rights to all > > contributed material be secured. Furthermore, if we are not able to > > secure such rights, then Wolfram Research and I, at our own expense, > > must rewrite the entries in question from scratch for CRC to > > reproduce. > > And he *agreed* to this??? > > Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, he lost any and all right(s) to > bitch about this when he agreed to the "instant win". > > What kind of dipshit would AGREE to these kind of things? I certainly don't have the full story. Many lawsuits are ultimately settled by strategic assessment: does it make more sense to stand and fight, or to settle and avoid more legal expenses. Going up against a publishing beheamoth, the decision of Eric Weisstein and Wolfram makes a certain amount of sense, particularly for a risk-averse company (and virtually all companies are risk averse). There's also the case of various organizations which have sued MAPS. Simply doing so is largely a losing proposition. There are effectively two MAPS blacklists: one you can get yourself off of by correcting a situation, and one you'll never get off of by virtue of having reached a "settlement" with the company. named.conf files in domains I control have authoritative entries for 247media.com, blackice.com, exactis.com, experian.com, harrisinteractive.com, and liveprayer.com. These are hardcoded in countless systems, not maintained by MAPS and other RBLs, and they're not negotiable. The CRC / Information Holdings "victory" is likely to have two lasting impacts: - Other authors of useful online scientific sites are going to be far less likely to enter into agreements with the company, and if they do so, under terms other than the contract Eric initially signed. - The general press for scientific authors (particularly of peer-reviewed journal articles) to find terms other than permanent assignment of all (or at least substantive) copyright will increase. I see this as a win battle / lose war scenario. I also see a potential third scenario. The MathWorld archive is largely notable for two characteristics: - It's associated with Eric Weisstein, and benefits greatly from his stewardship. - Its true strength comes form the guided contributions of many individuals to the site. It's not a product, it's a process. One alternative may be for Eric to continue maintenance of existing content on the MathWorld site, but to create a new site, independent in name from MathWorld, to which user contributions are made. Whether or not this is possible depends heavily on the specifics of the CRC settlement. My feeling is that CRC/IH have slain their golden goose in this case. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 6 15:29:03 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 17:29:03 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics Message-ID: <3BE8723F.489624BD@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/06/2028252.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From info_4u0 at lycos.com Tue Nov 6 17:33:50 2001 From: info_4u0 at lycos.com (info_4u0 at lycos.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:33:50 Subject: MUST READ!!!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: <200111062245.QAA18496@einstein.ssz.com> If you're sick of scams, then read this, and do what it says. Dear Future Millionaire: I'll make you a promise. READ THIS E-MAIL TO THE END! - follow what it says to the letter - and you will not worry whether a RECESSION is coming or not, who is President, or whether you keep your current job or not. Yes, I know what you are thinking. I never responded to one of these before either. One day though, something just said "you throw away $25.00 going to a movie for 2 hours with your wife". "What the heck." 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Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 .....# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 ormore e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! =============MORE TESTIMONIALS=============== '' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........ all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jodyin her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois ================================================ '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ================================================= '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ================================================= '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ================================================= ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! If you have any questions regarding this great deal please write me at yourreports at ziplip.com If you wish to be removed from the mailing list please send an email to removemeplease at ziplip.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line. ================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ================================================= ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE ================================================= This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301, paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to: removemeplease at ziplip.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line. From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 07:42:34 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:42:34 +0200 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets References: Message-ID: <00bc01c166d9$a76c6600$5300a8c0@marcel> From: "Jim Choate" > What does it take to create a 'free market'? Hayeks says 'perfect > competition'. And in this, he gave way to David Friedman and the like. Hayek is the least Austrian of the Austrians. Look to Mises - or better yet, to Rothbard - to find a much better Austrian. > The reality is that Tim's believe that he can refuse to serve a customer > because they hold or perhaps practice some action that (while not > involving him or his property directly, only his apparently fragile > emotional ego) he finds offensive is within the bounds of free market > econoimics is just plain crap. > > Hayek's views on fascism and socialism are well known, and not positive. > What Tim proposes is nothing more than fascism at the individual level. You're still incredibly deluded. Even Hayek (bad as he is) would have supported someone's decision NOT to sell to someone else, your rethoric notwithstanding. BTW, do you have anything else besides "Tim is wrong"? (And I'm no fan of Tim.) Mark From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 08:32:04 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:32:04 +0200 Subject: Fw: Business 'rights' and free markets Message-ID: <015601c166e0$91dde370$5300a8c0@marcel> I thought Choate might want someone with more authority to speak on this. Here is his reply. (Jeff Tucker is the admin of the mises.org mailing list.) Mark From: "Jeff Tucker" > This looks hopeless to me. Anyone who calls the freedom of association > "fascism on an individual level" isn't worth arguing with. > > jeff > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marcel Popescu" > To: "Jeff Tucker" > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:55 AM > Subject: Fw: Business 'rights' and free markets > > > I apologize for disturbing you; we're unable to convince this guy he > doesn't > have a clue what he's talking about, so I thought maybe we could get a few > words from someone with more authority than us. > > Basically, we're talking about the Austrian school, and whether a free > market can exist at all. We started with Tim May's statement (with which I > agree completely) that there's no contradiction between a free market, and > the freedom of a businessman to refuse to accept a customer, no matter on > what grounds. Choate disagrees. > > Thank you, and my apologies for bothering you with such triviality. (It's > not that I don't know how to respond - it's that this guy won't accept > anyone because "he doesn't really understands Hayek".) > > Mark From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Nov 6 18:47:29 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:47:29 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: <200111070247.fA72lTU26383@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Seems those opposed to the coming civil liberties crack down need to start employing some of the very same technology proposed to corral us. For starters how about PC FaceCam to punish sneak and peek? Seems that if the data base of such a system were programmed to detect entry and discriminate family members or others who should have legit access to your property you could use it to deter their searches.(Probably a good idea to put a good UPS on the PC and FaceCam to thwart power interruptions, though why they would want to risk causing a tell tale time reset to one of you appliances I can't imagine.) For example, you could hook a compressed air tank to a high frequency whistle via a control valve connected to you PC. Shouldn't be much of a problem reaching damaging or even lethal sound levels and might hard to stop once triggered. (Ever try find which one of your smoke detectors was triggering?) Not recommended if you have pets :-) (I once connected a buzzer in the center of a large wall-mounted array of flash lamps to an under-the-carpet pressure sensor to form a burglar bugger. When triggered the system would sound the buzzer for about 1/2 second, to attract the eyes of the burglar, and then fire. A few months after install our place was burgled and the thieves fled without taking any items, probably with some permanent retinal damage.) Of course you could connect an automated firearm to the PC. (Crime Stoppers Note: always aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list know what penalties might be brought? I seem to recall that tying a shotgun to the doorknob was ruled an "indiscriminate weapon". But a FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indiscriminate. From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 16:48:29 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:48:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: <20011106162234.I361@navel.introspect> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > Apparently impervious to irony, CRC at the same time acknowledged in > its own court filing that the book was the company's best-selling > mathematics title! (This, one month after Mr. Stern had "explained" > to me that my book was a back list item that I should not be > surprised to see dropped from its promotional materials.) > In addition to its "instant win," CRC will be paid annually for > books they don't sell, according to a formula that both sides have > accepted--although we continue to believe that any past or future > failure to achieve projected sales is far more plausibly attributed > to CRC's abysmal marketing efforts than to any abuse of the web site > Another important change is that, as part of the settlement > agreement, CRC Press will now be given permission to create editions > of the printed book based on future snapshots of the web site. As a > result, CRC insisted that broad reproduction rights to all > contributed material be secured. Furthermore, if we are not able to > secure such rights, then Wolfram Research and I, at our own expense, > must rewrite the entries in question from scratch for CRC to > reproduce. And he *agreed* to this??? Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, he lost any and all right(s) to bitch about this when he agreed to the "instant win". What kind of dipshit would AGREE to these kind of things? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bounce at fantasy-mail.com Tue Nov 6 10:49:07 2001 From: bounce at fantasy-mail.com (Fantasy Mail) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 18:49:07 GMT Subject: Welcome To Fantasy Mail! Your Attention Is Requested Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2875 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Tue Nov 6 10:44:53 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:44:53 +0100 Subject: Stun Guns a Firearm? Message-ID: > According to new federal laws, a non-lethal stun gun *is* in fact a > firearm. Supposedly enacted specifically to keep felons from stun-guns, > it seems geared more towards keeping the populace from self-defence. What! Care to elborate a bit more on this? When did this get passed, and what else was made illegal? Paintball guns? Pellet guns? Rocks? Or only rocks in a sock? Tim is only too right -- this country is totally fucked. From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 6 17:50:19 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:50:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: <20011106172808.A24595@navel.introspect> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > Many lawsuits are ultimately settled by strategic assessment: does it > make more sense to stand and fight, or to settle and avoid more legal > expenses. This is the stance pushed by lawyer vermin, who are more interested in their fees than in right and wrong. To knuckle under to it is to act without honor, and to lose - completely - any respect your peers may have had for you. If more people would see these things through as issues of right and wrong, and then sue the opposing scumfuck lawyers on the other side, there would be a LOT less of this. > There's also the case of various organizations which have sued MAPS. How the hell did we get into MAPS here? > Simply doing so is largely a losing proposition. Really? Tell that to the recent victors. > There are effectively > two MAPS blacklists: one you can get yourself off of by correcting a > situation, and one you'll never get off of by virtue of having reached a > "settlement" with the company. named.conf files in domains I control > have authoritative entries for 247media.com, blackice.com, exactis.com, > experian.com, harrisinteractive.com, and liveprayer.com. These are > hardcoded in countless systems, not maintained by MAPS and other > RBLs, and they're not negotiable. Interesting. My named.confs are authoritative for MAPS and it's ilk. > The CRC / Information Holdings "victory" is likely to have two lasting > impacts: > > - Other authors of useful online scientific sites are going to be far > less likely to enter into agreements with the company, and if they > do so, under terms other than the contract Eric initially signed. They should refuse to have anything to do with this company -period. > - The general press for scientific authors (particularly of > peer-reviewed journal articles) to find terms other than permanent > assignment of all (or at least substantive) copyright will increase. These are people who should have known better _already_. What makes you think they'll be any more serious about their due diligence in the future? > I see this as a win battle / lose war scenario. For which side? > I also see a potential third scenario. The MathWorld archive is largely > notable for two characteristics: > > - It's associated with Eric Weisstein, and benefits greatly from his > stewardship. Not any more... > - Its true strength comes form the guided contributions of many > individuals to the site. It's not a product, it's a process. *Now*, it's a product. > One alternative may be for Eric to continue maintenance of existing > content on the MathWorld site, but to create a new site, independent in > name from MathWorld, to which user contributions are made. Whether or > not this is possible depends heavily on the specifics of the CRC > settlement. Assuming for a second that it _is_ possible, what makes you think this pussy wouldn't knuckle under the next time CRC came knocking? > My feeling is that CRC/IH have slain their golden goose in > this case. Not at all: the more copies they _don't_ sell, the more this idjit will contribute to them in cash! He has insured that they will *always* make money on this, even if they execute their own project - on purpose! > Peace. Peace my ass. To put it in May-Speak, these assholes have most definitely earned killing, along with those insects they refer to as "lawyers". -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kurtbuff at lightmail.com Tue Nov 6 20:30:01 2001 From: kurtbuff at lightmail.com (Kurt) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:30:01 -0800 Subject: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2215d867621a477364ea4376d900d9ef3be8b84f@zetron.com> I tried to find this article on the web site - the link doesn't seem to work, and a search on either 'tina hesman' or 'dershowitz' reveals nothing.... | Below is the link to the story. {Saint Louis Today} | | | By Tina Hesman | Of The Post-Dispatch | 11/04/2001 06:07 AM | From throwaway1 at hushmail.com Tue Nov 6 21:03:20 2001 From: throwaway1 at hushmail.com (throwaway1 at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:03:20 -0800 Subject: Test - please ignore Message-ID: <200111070503.fA753KC51128@mailserver1.hushmail.com> From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 6 21:30:28 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:30:28 -0800 Subject: William Cooper, activist, killed in raid this morning on his Arizona home Message-ID: <8DEE8303-D340-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Cypherpunks, Various reports are appearing on this, some from the Sierra Times, some at his Web site (http://williamcooper.com/). William Cooper was the radio talk show host/UFO nut/MJ-12 believer/anti-New World Order guy. Much more is available on various sites. (He was one of the first Usenet nutcases, er, "interesting people," I encountered when I began using the New extensively in 1988. MJ-12 (Majestic 12), his book "Behold a Pale Horse," and countless conspiracy theories. Recently he's been carrying articles about the coming police state, the USA-PATRIOT Act and the criminals who passed it, and the need for action. Apparently he was shot and killed in a midnight raid on his home in rural Arizona this morning. The Website, obviously being updated by someone else (who may wish his or her survival to be ensured!), is epressing caution that patriots not jump to any conclusions that Cooper was targetted because of his political views. Hmmmmhhh. Whatever. Time will tell. Perhaps the warrant was being served for his unpaid taxes...but why at midnight for a tax matter? Looks like Waco all over again. Being discussed in alt.conspiracy, misc.survivalism, and, one presumes, a bunch of the UFO, militia, and patriot newsgroups. A search on Yahoo's headline news doesn't yet pick up the (alleged) AP news story quoted below, but it may by tomorrow. Or by more specialized searches. The cautious person might believe the round up of undesirables may be beginning. (Ashcroft can boast: "We have rounded up 350 more suspicious persons. Under the new USA-PATRIOT Act, we will hold them indefiniately. Chief Interrogator Alan Dershowitz is bringing his tools to torture the truth out of these perps. ") The ultra-cautious person would make certain all of the Claymores are set, and that the Sarin antidotes are close at hand for when the automatic release occurs upon entry. Here's a story posted on some of the Usenet groups: --begin story-- MILITIA LEADER KILLED, DEPUTY WOUNDED DURING ATTEMPTED ARREST Associated Press/The Arizona Republic Nov. 06, 2001 12:20:00 EAGAR - A national leader of the militia movement has been killed and an Apache County sheriff's deputy wounded in a shootout, authorities said. William Milton Cooper, 58, of Eager, had hosted a talk show broadcast on the Worldwide Christian Radio out of Nashville, which receives it via phone from his home in St. Johns. He had millions of listeners worldwide, including Timothy McVeigh. The deputy, whose name was being withheld by authorities, was shot twice in the head while trying to arrest Cooper, a state Department of Public Safety spokesman said today. Cooper was killed by another officer. Several deputies were attempting to arrest Cooper, who was armed with a handgun, said Officer Steve Volden, a spokesman for the DPS, which was investigating the shooting. He said details of the shooting would be released later today. The deputy was in critical condition at a Phoenix hospital early today, Volden said. Cooper was one of the most widely known prophets of the "patriot movement," railing at the federal government and talking of doomsday omens in his radio broadcast. McVeigh, who was executed in May for the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City, listened to Cooper's broadcasts for inspiration, according to testimony by James Nichols, brother of Oklahoma bombing co-defendant Terry Nichols during a 1996 pretrial hearing. Like some other patriot leaders, Cooper refused to get a driver's license or pay federal income taxes, saying he is willing to risk getting ticketed and has found a legal way to avoid the taxes. The patriot movement grew during the 1990s, fed by a series of news events - the siege of Randy Weaver in Idaho, the raid on the Branch Davidians near Waco, Texas and the signing of gun-control laws. --end story-- --Tim May "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 6 21:34:07 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:34:07 -0800 Subject: URL for William Cooper death story Message-ID: <100A6572-D341-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Got the URL for the AP story on William Cooper's death in a midnight raid: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/breaking/1106deputyshot06-ON.html --Tim May "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet From memcs1103 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 19:36:13 2001 From: memcs1103 at yahoo.com (-EmailCenter-) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:36:13 -0600 Subject: -Most Responsive E-mails, FREE Direct E-mail Software Message-ID: <200111070400.WAA20948@einstein.ssz.com> ===================================== FREE Bulletproof Mail Servers for a month with qualified purchase, see details below! ===================================== - FRESH 10,000 List 11-05-01!! 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(never lose your ISP again!) - SPECIALS! - ---------------------- **FREE with EVERY order: Demo of ListMan e-mail manager software **Orders of 50,000 or more: FREE copy Express Mail Server to send your messages! -This is not a demo but a permanent license for the software! **Orders of 200,000 : - Resale Rights for EMS! -->You keep 100% of the profits - InfoDisk with 1000+ Money Making Reports - CheckMAN software _______________________________________________________________ To be removed from future mailings: mailto:memcs1103 at yahoo.com?Subject=Remove From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 6 20:43:28 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:43:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: <20011106172808.A24595@navel.introspect> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > One alternative may be for Eric to continue maintenance of existing > content on the MathWorld site, but to create a new site, independent in > name from MathWorld, to which user contributions are made. Whether or > not this is possible depends heavily on the specifics of the CRC > settlement. My feeling is that CRC/IH have slain their golden goose in > this case. wikipedia.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From napsterrapstar at hotmail.com Tue Nov 6 20:10:48 2001 From: napsterrapstar at hotmail.com (napsterrapstar at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:10:48 -0500 Subject: ay foolproof Message-ID: i know u posted this shit in april, buti know a way 2 get roudn fool proof, try booting up in safe mode, then uninstallintg it. if it don't work 2 bad. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 458 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Tue Nov 6 20:14:30 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:14:30 -0500 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <000ae09511606b1ATOSDCFE1@atos.faa.gov>; from baptista@faa.gov on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:52:04AM -0500 References: <000ae09511606b1ATOSDCFE1@atos.faa.gov> Message-ID: <20011106231430.A29862@cluebot.com> It worked. The risk is not that experts will be fooled. They can scroll through the headers and figure things out. The risk is that the message will have a Message-ID: that includes faa.gov and some Received: lines will include faa.gov. Would make me do a double-take. -Declan On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:52:04AM -0500, baptista at faa.gov wrote: > This is Joe baptista using the open email replay at faa.gov to prove a point. > > 1) is this an open relay. > 2) can faa.gov messages be forged through this open relay? > > thats all folks. From declan at well.com Tue Nov 6 20:27:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:27:12 -0500 Subject: Mail filters in qmail? In-Reply-To: <20011107004658.24794.qmail@sidereal.kz>; from drevil@sidereal.kz on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:46:58AM -0000 References: <20011107004658.24794.qmail@sidereal.kz> Message-ID: <20011106232712.B29862@cluebot.com> I'm not that familiar with qmail, but I was under the impression it was an MTA like postfix or sendmail. I presume you intended to ask about procmail. Put this in your procmail.rc file before your cypherpunks rule: INCLUDERC=$PMDIR/kill.rc Insert in the new $PMDIR/kill.rc file something like this: :0: * ^From:.*?ravage at .*?ssz.com.* trash I suspect you don't have to include the last .* (don't recall). Do a search for procmail FAQs for far more details than you ever wanted. -Declan On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:46:58AM -0000, Dr. Evil wrote: > Ok, I have come to the conclusion that this list is unbearable without > some filters. Can someone recomend what is the easiest way to drop > email from certain posters, using the Qmail system? I just want > something simple which won't require me to learn some new > super-powerful filter ruleset description language. I just want to be > able to say, "If it comes from ravage at ... please discard." > > Thanks From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 6 23:38:56 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:38:56 -0800 Subject: Item from another list qouted without comment In-Reply-To: <20011107012706.B26668@die.com> Message-ID: <801F78C0-D352-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 10:27 PM, Dave Emery wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from Aimee Farr ----- > > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:27:11 -0600 > From: "Aimee Farr" > Subject: [TSCM-L] *BOOM!* > To: "TSCM-L Mailing List" > > All the civil lib talk regarding sneak and peek is radicalizing fringe > groups and sensitizing them to countermeasures. Conversations of > checks...vid -- and I strongly suspect booby trap talk. (I have a > research > interest in groups under surveillance/impression of surveillance.) Yep, it looks like Agent Farr all right--I recognize her fractured, incomprehensible style. What is one to make of: "Conversations of checks...vid -- and I strongly suspect booby trap talk."? I wonder if Agent Farr chose one of the groups Bill Cooper was on as part of her "research"? > The only booby trap I recognize is a "water bra." I hope guys doing > surreptitious entry under increased surveillance powers are afforded > better > recognition training. No doubt some of you are important resources as to > these matters, and I hope that your expertise is being sought. Agent Farr wants "guys doing surreptitious entry" to have "better recognition training." Not surprising, but it ought to convince even the charitable amongst us who wanted to give "Aimee Farr" the benefit of the doubt that she/he is clearly advising LEOs. --Tim May "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -- Nietzsche From fogstorm at mac.com Tue Nov 6 23:42:12 2001 From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:42:12 -0800 Subject: Osama Says Message-ID: Full text (translated into English) of his latest communication: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/monitoring/media_reports/newsid_1636000/ 1636782.stm From drevil at sidereal.kz Tue Nov 6 16:46:58 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 7 Nov 2001 00:46:58 -0000 Subject: Mail filters in qmail? Message-ID: <20011107004658.24794.qmail@sidereal.kz> Ok, I have come to the conclusion that this list is unbearable without some filters. Can someone recomend what is the easiest way to drop email from certain posters, using the Qmail system? I just want something simple which won't require me to learn some new super-powerful filter ruleset description language. I just want to be able to say, "If it comes from ravage at ... please discard." Thanks From verba at rol.it Tue Nov 6 15:56:07 2001 From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:56:07 +0100 Subject: Verba Volant del 07-11-01 Message-ID: <1005094568@web_ext.logos.it> Verba Volant del 07-11-01, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com _________________ Quotation of the day: Author - Paul Val�ry http://www.logos.it/bio/paul_valery.html English - politics is the art of seeing that people do not become interested in that which concerns them Italian - la politica � l'arte di evitare che la gente si interessi di ci� che la riguarda Spanish - la pol�tica es el arte de evitar que la gente se interese en lo que le importa French - la politique est l'art d'emp�cher les gens de se m�ler de ce qui les regarde Portuguese - a pol�tica � a arte de evitar que as pessoas se interessem por aquilo que lhes diz respeito Brazilian Portuguese - a pol�tica � a arte de evitar que as pessoas se interessem por aquilo que lhes diz respeito German - Politik ist die Kunst zu vermeiden, dass die Leute sich f�r das interessieren, was sie betrifft Hungarian - a politika az a muv�szet, amivel el lehet �rni, hogy az emberek ne foglalkozzanak az oket �rinto dolgokkal Finnish - politiikka on taidetta est�� ihmisi� kiinnostumasta heit� itse��n koskevista asioista Catalan - la pol�tica �s l�art d�evitar que la gent s�interesi d�all� que la preocupa Croatian - politika je umjetnost izbjegavanja da se ljudi interesiraju onim �to ih se tice Czech - politika je umen� postarat se o to, aby se lid� nezaj�mali o veci, kter� se jich t�kaj� Dutch - politiek is de kunst te vermijden dat de mensen zich interesseren in wat hen aangaat Emiliano-Romagnolo - la puleteca la � l'erti ad fer ca la zent us'impipa dal robi ca son de chent lur Furlan - la politiche 'e j� l'art di schiv� che la int si interesi di chel che la riguarde Latin - ratio civilis est ars cavendi ne homines curent quod ad se pertineat Latvian; Lettish - politika ir maksla redzet, ka cilveki neinteresejas par to, kas attiecas uz viniem Occitan - la politica es l�art d�empachar que lo monde s�enteresse de �� que lo regarda Polish - polityka jest sztuka unikania by ludzie interesowali sie tym co ich dotyczy Romanian - politica este arta de a �mpiedica oamenii sa se amestece �n ceea ce �i priveste Slovak - politika je umen�m postarat sa o to, aby sa ludia nezauj�malo o to, co sa ich t�ka Venetian - la politica la xe la capassit� de fare in maniera che la xente no se intaressi de quel che la riguarda Sicilian - 'a pulitica � l'arti di evitari ca 'a genti s'interessa di chiddu ca 'a riguarda Flemish - politiek is de kunst te vermijden dat de mensen zich interesseren in wat hen aangaat Calabrese - la pulitica � u mistieri di sapiri evitari ca a genti si possa interessari di chiro ca la riguarda Reggiano - la pol�tica l'� l'erta ed tajer fora la gint da coll che gh'inter�sa Ferrarese - la pulitica l'� l'art ad far s� c'la zent la'n s'interess brisa ad quel c'la riguarda Bolognese - la pul�ttica l�� l��rt ed f�r da manc che la z�nt is intar�sen a qu�ll ch�al i �ntra s�g _________________ All languages, please click on this link http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=438 _________________ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:" From die at die.com Tue Nov 6 22:27:06 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:27:06 -0500 Subject: Item from another list qouted without comment Message-ID: <20011107012706.B26668@die.com> ----- Forwarded message from Aimee Farr ----- From grocha at neutraldomain.org Tue Nov 6 16:27:50 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:27:50 +0100 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <7CF95F02-D2DA-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net>; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 09:19:51AM -0800 References: <20011106033635.H43409@neutraldomain.org> <7CF95F02-D2DA-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011107012750.A583@neutraldomain.org> On Tue, Nov 06, at 09:19AM, Tim May wrote: | Bluntly, when Choate makes strange claims about math, history, physics, | and economics, it's never worth the time to try to correct his many | wrong-headed (in our reality) ideas and definitions. Thank you for helping me see the light. I have pondered adding Choate to a killfile recently, but it is not worth the trouble, just move on to next message when I see something from him...But it sure is fun sometimes to point out how ignorant he is or acts or tries to come off as being. Besides, I am bored alot. :) --Gabe -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 7 01:41:06 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 01:41:06 -0800 Subject: Mail filters in qmail? In-Reply-To: <20011107004658.24794.qmail@sidereal.kz> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011107013829.03263e60@idiom.com> At 12:46 AM 11/07/2001 +0000, Dr. Evil wrote: >Ok, I have come to the conclusion that this list is unbearable without >some filters. Can someone recomend what is the easiest way to drop >email from certain posters, using the Qmail system? I just want >something simple which won't require me to learn some new >super-powerful filter ruleset description language. I just want to be >able to say, "If it comes from ravage at ... please discard." Declan suggests Procmail, if you want a powerful, flexible tool. Alternatively, many mail reader programs include filtering capabilities. /bin/mail didn't :-), but Eudora does, and probably most browser-based mail readers also do. So you're covered with Procmail on Unix, and client programs on Windows and Macs. From grocha at neutraldomain.org Tue Nov 6 16:50:37 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:50:37 +0100 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <00bc01c166d9$a76c6600$5300a8c0@marcel>; from mdpopescu@yahoo.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:42:34PM +0200 References: <00bc01c166d9$a76c6600$5300a8c0@marcel> Message-ID: <20011107015037.E583@neutraldomain.org> On Tue, Nov 06, at 05:42PM, Marcel Popescu wrote: | And in this, he gave way to David Friedman and the like. Hayek is the least | Austrian of the Austrians. Look to Mises - or better yet, to Rothbard - to | find a much better Austrian. By and by, "better" is a relative term... | You're still incredibly deluded. Even Hayek (bad as he is) would have | supported someone's decision NOT to sell to someone else, your rethoric | notwithstanding. You didn't need to go past your first sentence here. | BTW, do you have anything else besides "Tim is wrong"? (And | I'm no fan of Tim.) He has nothing else, see above. --Gabe -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." From victoskes at hotmail.com Tue Nov 6 19:50:00 2001 From: victoskes at hotmail.com (victor owunwa) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 03:50:00 +0000 Subject: Business relationship Message-ID: ATTENTION: REQUEST FOR AN URGENT BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP PLEASE STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL. Your contact address got to me via export promotion council. Your reliability and trust worthyness in business transaction was the main conviction that compelled me to solicit for your support in this deal. I am Dr.victor,the financial controller of the Nigerian national Petroleum Corporation (NNPC) Lagos, Nigeria and Secretary to the contract award committee of my Ministry. I, in collaboration with other members have agreed to transfer out of the country through central bank Nigeria (CBN) some amount and will later re-invest it abroad after the success of this transaction. The amount involved is thirty million United states dollars ($30m) this is as result of an over-inflated amount of contract. This contract has been already executed and commissioned and the original contractors have collected their full and final payment. Because this contract was awarded to foreign contractor and the payment made in U.S dollars, we now need a foreign firm that will present itself as the contractor for this amount of thirty million U.S dollars ($30m), and then the fund will be transferred into the company�s account since we do not want to use the original contractors in applying for the payment, because the (contractors) are not aware of this over-invoiced. Therefore, I as the financial controller was told to write to you by my colleagues and see to the success of the remittance immediately. You will however, be required to furnish us with the necessary informations. 1. Your Personal phone and fax numbers 2. Name of your bank, phone, fax and telex number 3. Your account numbers where this money will be lodged into. These informations will enable us to put application of claims for the release of this money from concerned government agencies and it will be for about 7 (seven) working days. For your assistance, we have agreed that the fund will be shared as follows: You as the account owner 30% Miscellaneous expenses 10% Officials invoiced 60% Now,, we assure you that all arrangements have been concluded for the success of this transactions, so if you are interested, reply us through the e-mail above. Yours sincerely,Dr.victor owunwa. N.B All replies strictly by e-mail for security reasons. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From jae at jerhard.org Tue Nov 6 19:27:34 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:27:34 +0100 Subject: A reasonable editorial assessment of Afghanistan status. In-Reply-To: <3BE49105.7556.125F8A6@localhost> (jamesd@echeque.com) References: <3BE49105.7556.125F8A6@localhost> Message-ID: >>>>> "jamesd" == jamesd writes: jamesd> -- >> http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/column.billpress/ >> index.html In each case, the truth belies the praise. If >> the military's doing such a great job, why -- after three >> weeks of nonstop, intensive bombing of one of the poorest >> countries on earth, with no navy, no air force and only a >> ragtag band of soldiers using obsolete weapons -- is the >> Taliban still in power? In past wars, CNN has been rather accurately called jamesd> "Communist News Network", but in this war they seem jamesd> incapable of mentioning the fact that our armed forces jamesd> frequently fuck up. Hey, since the day I heard they tried to get Rush Limbaugh, I've given up on them. And since all they're showing is "War War WAR", I've given up watching. Bye, J -- Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) My WebHome: http://jerhard.org GNU Privacy Guard (http://www.gnupg.org) Join the War on the War on Drugs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dreplies at maild.specialofferscentral.com Tue Nov 6 14:59:41 2001 From: dreplies at maild.specialofferscentral.com (Special Offers Central) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 04:29:41 +0530 Subject: Win a Year's Supply of Laundry Care products Message-ID: <200111062259.fA6MvR0E024462@maild.specialofferscentral.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SPECIAL OFFERS CENTRAL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A SPECIAL CONTEST OFFER... It is our pleasure to offer you a chance to win a free year's supply of laundry care products. If you are interested in learning more about this special offer, please click below. http://specialofferscentral.com/soc/0110di/l.asp?f=2&t=1&e=plcurechaxf~gbnq.pbz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Special Offers Central is dedicated to permission-based marketing. If you are not interested in receiving information from Special Offers Central, please click below to unsubscribe or reply with the word "Remove" in the subject line. http://specialofferscentral.com/soc/0110di/l.asp?f=2&t=UN&e=plcurechaxf~gbnq.pbz -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2993 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jae at jerhard.org Tue Nov 6 19:31:58 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:31:58 +0100 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> (Raymond@fbntech.com) References: <3BE490F0.4237.151C5F7E@localhost> Message-ID: >>>>> "Raymond" == Raymond D Mereniuk writes: Raymond> I kinda like a place where there is a rule of law and Raymond> everything is totally predictable, something America Raymond> appears to be moving away from at this moment. So much for "Security for Freedom"... if you can't trust the "Security Personnel", how can you be secure? Benji Franklin comes to mind... Bye, J -- Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) My WebHome: http://jerhard.org GNOME Desktop Project (http://www.gnome.org) Amazon.com: One-Click Patent - One-Click Boycott -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jae at jerhard.org Tue Nov 6 19:46:47 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 04:46:47 +0100 Subject: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>>>> "Blanc" == Blanc writes: >> From Raymond D. Mereniuk: Blanc> :I kinda like a place where there is a rule of law and everything is Blanc> :totally predictable, something America appears to be moving away Blanc> :from at this moment. Blanc> ---------------------- Blanc> But the situation *is* entirely predictable: Blanc> Some people in scary positions of responsibility do not Blanc> want to see, hear, or know The Truth, because they don't Blanc> know what to do about it. It's all symbolism and familiar Blanc> stereotype - if you want to get by airport security, Blanc> . wear an NYPD hat Blanc> . put a U.S. flag pin on your jacket lapel or somewhere on Blanc> the top front of your clothing If (which I expect in the current climate) the "Holy Old Glory" amendment goes through, you should also take care not to spill any food or drink on the pin. Blanc> . if taking a book to read, be sure to change the cover to Blanc> one from those current books written by prominent Blanc> journalists or other liberal communications personalities Or buy one of Tom Clancy's titles. Blanc> . move in a calm manner - no sudden moves, say to help Blanc> with zippers or anything (remember: they don't trust you, Blanc> and only they are allowed to determine the course and Blanc> direction of your next step - any sign of too much or too Blanc> little self-confidence will be viewed with suspicion) Though if you err, err on the side of submission... Blanc> . as you pass by the armed guards, look in their eye, Blanc> smile sweetly, and say "I'm *so* glad you're here - I feel Blanc> safer now!" But you have to *honestly mean it*... not even a hint of sarcasm. They'll detect that. Blanc> . at the ticket counter, when they ask for your ID, begin Blanc> with "baahaaahaaa". They will respond with recognition and Blanc> relax a little. That would backfire if I did it... don't think they have a file on me... yet. Bye, J PS: Are we cynical bastards or what? :-} -- Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) Invasion! http://invasion.jerhard.org Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org) pros do it for money -- amateurs out of love. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grocha at neutraldomain.org Wed Nov 7 05:41:06 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:41:06 -0800 Subject: Mail filters in qmail? In-Reply-To: <20011106232712.B29862@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:27:12PM -0500 References: <20011107004658.24794.qmail@sidereal.kz> <20011106232712.B29862@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20011107054106.L43409@neutraldomain.org> On Tue, Nov 06, at 11:27PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: | Put this in your procmail.rc file before your cypherpunks rule: | INCLUDERC=$PMDIR/kill.rc | | Insert in the new $PMDIR/kill.rc file something like this: | :0: | * ^From:.*?ravage at .*?ssz.com.* | trash/ ^^ Make sure you add the leading slash to denote Maildir as opposed to mbox. -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. From mv at cdc.gov Wed Nov 7 06:37:27 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 06:37:27 -0800 Subject: Plugging leaks Message-ID: <3BE94727.836BFAEB@cdc.gov> At 01:46 PM 11/6/01 -0800, A. Melon wrote: >WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The information that prompted a warning that >terrorists might target a major Western bridge has been determined to be >"not credible," two federal law enforcement officials tell CNN, and the >FBI Tuesday is preparing to say no threat exists. > >"There just wasn't anything to it," said one official. The jihad's leak has been identified and, um, plugged. How do you say whacked in pashto? Gov Gray is a fine leak detector, don't believe it when they say soapy water is any better. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 05:27:27 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 07:27:27 -0600 Subject: Model Emergency Health Powers Act For States Drafted Message-ID: <3BE936BF.7972A21E@ssz.com> http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1107013.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mv at cdc.gov Wed Nov 7 07:42:11 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 07:42:11 -0800 Subject: URL for William Cooper death story Message-ID: <3BE95652.49C84A26@cdc.gov> At 10:20 AM 11/7/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Here's another article with more detail. Gotta love the SPLC: > >http://www.arizonarepublic.com/news/articles/1107cooper07.html "former Marine and Persian Gulf War veteran, was shot twice in the head by what was believed to be a .45-caliber pistol. The officer was expected to survive" Geez that kinda blows the large-caliber theory... should have used a rifle.. From sjensen at bigfoot.com Wed Nov 7 08:27:34 2001 From: sjensen at bigfoot.com (S. Jensen) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:27:34 Subject: I thought I would tell you.... Message-ID: <200111071426.GAA32557@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4184 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sjensen at bigfoot.com Wed Nov 7 08:27:34 2001 From: sjensen at bigfoot.com (S. Jensen) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:27:34 Subject: I thought I would tell you.... Message-ID: <200111071538.JAA25682@einstein.ssz.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4184 bytes Desc: not available URL: From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 09:12:18 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:12:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Osama Says In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011107171218.63991.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> > Full text (translated into English) of his latest communication: I see. The We Kill Others variety. What is Islam's position on encryption, BTW ? ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Nov 7 09:20:47 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:20:47 -0800 Subject: Microsoft scripting and other "repulsive garbage", redirection Message-ID: <3BE96D6F.4EE7DFE2@sarin.com> http://wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,48177,00.html This is perhaps the most amusing part: "My computer has been totally taken over by disgusting porn ads," Martha Nichols, a secretary in Chicago, said. "A few months ago the browser began spontaneously opening up to a dozen windows displaying triple-X-rated ads every time I entered a website address that couldn't be found. I have five kids, and they were being exposed to this repulsive garbage. I finally had to switch to Netscape to stop the ads." Nichols said that she had never downloaded any programs from adult websites, or even visited such websites. "I don't want to sound like a prude, but I just don't do that sort of thing online. And the computer is in our living room, so I know the kids didn't do it either." From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Wed Nov 7 09:31:54 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:31:54 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: <200111071731.fA7HVs794577@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 10:19 AM 11/7/2001 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > Of course you could connect an automated firearm. (Crime Stoppers Note: > aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list > know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a > shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a > FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. > > ks > Try explaining that to the widow of the fireman who was trying to save your house. ...of course, that's assuming that it works perfectly, with no false returns. Reality rarely matches marketing. The accuracy rates for face recognition are good iff and only iff the subject is cooperating. With your proposed system, if you forgot to take off your sunglasses when you went in the house, you're probably dead. Peter Trei -------------------------------- All professional alarm systems have an "armed state" and "triggered" warning so the property owners can shut it off before any action is taken. I'm sure something appropriate can be devised to handle false IDs. As for the firemen, this would indeed be a weakness. BTW, open source face recognition SW is available from Intel. http://www.intel.com/research/mrl/research/opencv/pr/visionSystemsDesignMag.htm#IntelTop Does anyone know of open source SW which could be adapted for target tracking and fire control? Imagine how feature-face recognition could be married with targeting and anaonymous open broadband wireless access (commuication is encrypted and only used when a possible target match has been identified) to identify, target, authorize and eliminate vermin. OpenJackal anyone? ks From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 7 07:19:25 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:19:25 -0500 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: > keyser-soze at hushmail.com[SMTP:keyser-soze at hushmail.com] > > > Seems those opposed to the coming civil liberties crack down need to start > employing some of the very same technology proposed to corral us. For > starters how about PC FaceCam to punish sneek and peekers? Seems that if > the data base of such a system were programmed to detect entry and > descriminate family members or others who should have legit access to your > property you could use it to deter their searches.(Probably a good idea to > put a good UPS on the PC and FaceCam to thwart power interruptions, though > why they would want to risk causing a tell tale time reset to one of you > appliances I can't imaginge.) > [...] > Of course you could connect an automated firearm. (Crime Stoppers Note: > aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list > know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a > shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a > FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. > > ks > Try explaining that to the widow of the fireman who was trying to save your house. ...of course, that's assuming that it works perfectly, with no false returns. Reality rarely matches marketing. The accuracy rates for face recognition are good iff and only iff the subject is cooperating. With your proposed system, if you forgot to take off your sunglasses when you went in the house, you're probably dead. Peter Trei From declan at well.com Wed Nov 7 07:20:07 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:20:07 -0500 Subject: URL for William Cooper death story In-Reply-To: <100A6572-D341-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net>; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 09:34:07PM -0800 References: <100A6572-D341-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011107102007.A5223@cluebot.com> Here's another article with more detail. Gotta love the SPLC: http://www.arizonarepublic.com/news/articles/1107cooper07.html >"For more than 3 1/2 years, he had been holed up in his house in >Eagar, threatening to kill police officers and federal agents," said >Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center. "He was talked about as >a guy who talked crazy and made a lot of threats. -Declan On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 09:34:07PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > Got the URL for the AP story on William Cooper's death in a midnight > raid: > > http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/breaking/1106deputyshot06-ON.html > > > --Tim May > "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third > hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're > around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Wed Nov 7 09:32:46 2001 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:32:46 -0700 Subject: Entertainingly dangerous spam - Access and use your PC from anywhe Message-ID: From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 7 10:33:01 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:33:01 -0800 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' Message-ID: <3BE97E5D.CC0AEA7E@lsil.com> Anonymous wrote : > >>Form over function. Same as airport security. Psyops. Like the warnings >>to keep people off balance. Should we start a pool to see who can guess >>when ashcruft will put everyone 'on highest alert' next? It'll probably > >The airport security show is clearly designed to intimidate >sheeple. > >From what I saw, the security consists of asking for photo ID 3 >times instead of once (used to be at the check-in counter, now >also when entering security check and at the gate). Mind boggles >trying to understand how these two extra checks help. > >Is there a single documented case of a terrorist *not* having a >proper ID ? Or losing the ID *after* the check-in ? > >The carry-on bagage X-raying and personal inductive test still >fail to detect non-metallic knives, perhaps hidden in the shoes. > >Restaurants at airports still offer metal knives. After the >security check. There are *so* many armed people at airports and >so much more guns that inside jobs become much simpler than >before. No one is going to ID armed man in military fatigue. > >Cockpit doors have better locks now, but I wonder where do pilots >urinate during long flights ? > That Depends... Brings to mind some NYC burglars...you know how you see NYC apartments in movies where there are multiple locks on the door? It's true. Ever seen one of those four-edged keys? Looks like it would be living hell to pick. Well, some burglars found a way around it - they just smashed through the wallboard next to the door. Now I'm not saying that this is exactly what will happen next on an airliner but how much good will all this show of force, new doors, sky marshals and ID checking do if these bastards choose to launch one of those unaccounted-for stingers from somewhere near a flight path over a densely populated area? And before you say it's too tough to get one of those into the country - I think customs checks <5% of incoming containers. And who knows, maybe just a hail of bullets could knock out the turbines... That's the problem with the "homeland security" gig - there are not enough trillions to plug all of the holes in the dike. So what to do? Well, the last four weeks of bombing and money hunting are something. Not much, but something. And before it's labeled prejudice I'm reasonably convinced that the guys who hijacked those flights on 911 were not named smith, schmidt, o'malley, kowalski, suzuki, xing, leclerc, rojas, or running bear. Mainlining petroleum has helped put us at risk. Allowing automotive and petroleum interests to run our country has prevented us from pursuing conservation measures and alternative energy as aggressively as we should have. Were we less dependent on petroleum in general and imported petroleum in particular we would be at lower risk and in a stronger position today. Consumption is just too much fun - until the bill arrives. Management by crisis is always costly. Everyone talks about our being "engaged" in the Middle East - they're wrong - we're bloody well married to it and it's going to be one mother of an expensive divorce. Fuck^H^H^H^HThank you GM, Ford, Chrysler, Exxon, Mobil, BP, reagan, bush, clinton, bush, congress and, most of all, all of us. Mike From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Nov 7 10:38:49 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:38:49 -0800 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us Message-ID: <3BE97FB9.EAFE4B0D@sarin.com> I think people have not quite gotten their hands around the speed at which information can be disseminated online. -Monica Lewinsky, LATimes 9 may 01 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-110701private.story November 7, 2001 Web Mishap: Kids' Psychological Files Posted By CHARLES PILLER, Times Staff Writer Detailed psychological records containing the innermost secrets of at least 62 children and teenagers were accidentally posted on the University of Montana Web site last week in one of the most glaring violations of privacy over the Internet. The 400 pages of documents describe patient visits and offer diagnoses by therapists of mental retardation, depression, schizophrenia and other serious conditions. In nearly all cases, they contain complete names, dates of birth and sometimes home addresses and schools attended, along with results of psychological testing. Unlike a medical file left open on a counter in a doctor's office, these electronic medical records, once placed on the Internet, were exposed to a potentially vast audience. "You're talking about sensitive information that could scar a child for life being available to anyone for any purpose," said Evan Hendricks, editor of Privacy Times newsletter. The mother of an 11-year-old, whose records of an attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder were posted on the university's Web site, was appalled. "He's just a kid, and he shouldn't have his whole life splattered around for the whole world to know. It makes me sick," she said. The mother declined to be identified. She recalled attending her son's therapy sessions and watched the therapist "taking notes in her book, and [I] thought maybe that was the extent of it. I guess I was kind of naive about that." The medical files were placed on the University of Montana Web site Oct. 29 and were available for eight days. The files were removed Monday after a local paper, the Missoulian, reported the story, university officials said. The records were for patients at clinics mainly in Minnesota, as well as in Montana and other states. A University of Montana student or technical employee may have accidentally placed these private files on the Web site, officials said. It is unclear how many people viewed these records. The Montana case is the latest in a series of unauthorized disclosures of medical data over the Internet. Earlier this year, Eli Lilly & Co., maker of the antidepressant Prozac, inadvertently divulged the names and e-mail addresses of 600 psychiatric patients in a mass e-mail. Similarly, Kaiser Permanente last year sent e-mails with confidential medical information to the wrong Kaiser members. "That's the danger with having all of these electronic records," said Daniel B. Borenstein, a former president of the American Psychiatric Assn. and a UCLA professor. "If you push the wrong button or put something in the wrong spot on your Web site, it [can mean] immediate distribution of a massive amount of private medical information," Borenstein said. Last year, a Nevada woman bought a used computer only to find that its previous owner, a drugstore, had left the pharmacy records of thousands of patients on the machine's storage drive. But the buyer did not publicly disclose the records. Also last year, a computer hacker broke into the medical records system at the University of Washington Medical Center and gained access to some 4,000 patient records--although these were not made public. What sets the Montana incident apart is the youth of the patients, the amount of detail disclosed and its placement on a public Web site that allowed complete access to private records. The detailed accounts by therapists reveal children suffering from all manner of emotional problems: "[She] has 'extreme mood swings' and is very aggressive with her sisters and other children," read one file about an 8-year-old girl diagnosed with autism and mental retardation. "She has been cruel to animals, . . . often refuses to eat and will make herself vomit." An 8-year-old boy was described as suffering from "anger outbursts, gender identity issues" and bed-wetting. Raymond Ford, the University of Montana technology manager, said the incident is under investigation. "We have no evidence that this was malicious--all the evidence that we have suggests that the person who uploaded [the patient files] probably had no idea what [he was] doing," he said. But once the records were placed on the school's Web server, a computer that manages its online files, they became available to Internet search engines and were visible to casual Web surfers who requested a keyword contained in a patient's record. For example, a search for "confidential" or "neuropsychological" turned up dozens of these medical records. Those files could then be copied to the computer of any visitor. Therapists whose patients were involved were stunned by the lapse. "I'm shocked. I have no idea how this can happen. Obviously, this information is confidential, and we go to great lengths to keep it confidential," said Bonnie Carlson-Green, a psychologist at Children's Hospital in St. Paul, Minn., the source of some of the patient records. Ford said the university will attempt to tighten its Web security, but that it must depend on users' vigilance and care to restrict private materials. Medical records experts said the university has an ethical obligation to inform the patients' parents. "The least the [university] can do is contact the families and let them know that there was this error and the steps they've taken to correct it," Borenstein said. "There should be special privacy protections for all medical records, even more special protections for disclosure of any psychiatric records," because of a real threat of discrimination against people whose treatment for mental illness becomes known, Borenstein said. Borenstein fears that fewer people will seek treatment if they think their private information may be accidentally disclosed. Many psychiatrists are so concerned about inappropriate electronic disclosure of medical reports that they write only cryptic comments in patient records, trusting the rest to memory, Borenstein said. David Aronofsky, the University of Montana's attorney, said accidental online releases of private legal or medical information are not unusual and are corrected quickly. Patients and medical institutions have not been contacted about the release of these records. They will be contacted if it seems necessary, after the internal investigation is concluded, Aronofsky said. "We're not understating the significance of what happened here, nor are we trying to cover it up," he said. Fiona Anderson, a University of Minnesota psychologist whose patient records were among those released online, said the records may have been removed against her institution's rules. "As things become more electronic and more easily accessed . . . edited and altered, it's difficult for our ethical rules and guidelines to keep up with the technology," she said. But such victims of accidental disclosures face steep legal challenges to gain compensation, said Peter Swire, a law professor who was chief privacy counselor for the Clinton administration. Part of the problem is new, more stringent federal standards for medical records privacy will not take effect until 2003, and state regulations vary widely. Posting a private document online--no matter how injurious it may appear--can cause legal liability only if the victim can prove damages in court. "What if one of the patients has something bad happen to him or her as a result of this disclosure--if they are turned down for a job later in life?" Swire said. "This is where you are open to a [legal] suit." As more medical records are stored digitally, routine electronic disclosure to insurers and health maintenance organizations has increasingly troubled some clinicians and privacy advocates, although such transfers are legal and often required for provider reimbursement. Paul Appelbaum, president-elect of the American Psychiatric Assn., said patients should be given the option of having their information kept on paper. A few health-care providers, such as the Harvard Pilgrim HMO, offer such an option. The alternative for patients may be decreasing control over their medical histories. Appelbaum added: "The mobility of electronic information is almost unlimited." From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 7 10:54:23 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:54:23 -0800 Subject: Plugging leaks In-Reply-To: <3BE94727.836BFAEB@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011107105124.032a65e0@idiom.com> At 06:37 AM 11/07/2001 -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >At 01:46 PM 11/6/01 -0800, A. Melon wrote: > >WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The information that prompted a warning that > >terrorists might target a major Western bridge has been determined to >be > >"not credible," two federal law enforcement officials tell CNN, and the > > >FBI Tuesday is preparing to say no threat exists. > > > >"There just wasn't anything to it," said one official. > >The jihad's leak has been identified and, um, plugged. How do >you say whacked in pashto? Gov Gray is a fine leak >detector, don't believe it when they say soapy water is any better. Nah... While Gray Davis may have some resemblence to soapy water, Melon forgot to enable the Babelfish bureaucratese<->English translator. The FBI spokesman actually said "Wolf? What wolf? You believed that? Hahahahahah!" From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 7 10:54:35 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:54:35 -0800 Subject: URL for William Cooper death story In-Reply-To: <20011107102007.A5223@cluebot.com> References: <100A6572-D341-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> <100A6572-D341-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <200111071600.LAA31864@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> This raises the question of what kind of ruses might be used on others to get them to come out of their fortresses or undo the security system. Here are some that have worked with mafia, terrorists, embezzlers, serial killers, war criminals, dissidents: 1. An interview with a high-profile person or forum. (And sex.) 2. Secret meeting with long-trusted comrade(s). (And sex.) 3. Foray to repair power, water, communication systems. (And sex.) 4. Haircut and massage. (And sex.) 5. Narcotics and/or liquor. (And sex.) 6. Arms replenishment. (And sex.) 7. A wedding of a beloved friend or relative. (And sex.) 8. Medical treatment. (And porno resupply and viagara.) 9. As last resort Mercopan under the door. (Then back to horny hole-up.) All these are used in war time to lure soldiers to their doom Moles and snipers are especially prone. From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 7 10:54:49 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:54:49 -0800 Subject: More silly stuff ( was RE: Enemy at the Door ) Message-ID: <3BE98379.328BB936@lsil.com> keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote : > Of course you could connect an automated firearm. (Crime Stoppers Note: > aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list > know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a > shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a > FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. > > ks > A deadly weapon triggered by unreliable SW using a nonexistant database would just give away the fact that you're on to the enemy and cause you undue legal grief. If your own surveillance remains a secret you're in a stronger position. Besides, should you care to tip your hand you might start with something simpler like indelible purple dye. IIRC human skin has a replacement period of ~3 weeks. Chances are your intruders would be from some local or regional installation. Purple people shouldn't be too tough to spot as they make their way to the office and home again ( unless you live in California ). Your more aggressive tactics could then be employed at a time and place of your choosing. From mv at cdc.gov Wed Nov 7 11:40:48 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:40:48 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door Message-ID: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 7 11:41:30 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:41:30 -0800 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us In-Reply-To: <3BE97FB9.EAFE4B0D@sarin.com> Message-ID: <710BCB2A-D3B7-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, November 7, 2001, at 10:38 AM, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-110701private.story > The medical files were placed on the University of > Montana Web site Oct. 29 > and were available for eight days. The files were > removed Monday after a local > paper, the Missoulian, reported the story, > university officials said. But the records were snarfed by the usual Web crawlers and archive sites, including many folks who went to the Web site after the report. These 50 kids will find their innermost thoughts and crimes "in their permanent records." When they apply for jobs in 15 years, when they seek political office, when they try to get security clearances. eBlack, the new anonymous bidding service, has an offer for e2400 for a complete set of these files. --Tim May "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 7 11:44:54 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:44:54 -0800 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' In-Reply-To: <3BE97E5D.CC0AEA7E@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011107114454.007ec930@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:33 AM 11/7/01 -0800, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >Mainlining petroleum has helped put us at risk. Allowing automotive and Solution: we just buy oil from other places. Only transient economic effects on us and many fewer body bags. See http://cryptome.org/alqaida-game.htm excerpt: AL- QAIDA S ENDGAME? A STRATEGIC SCENARIO ANALYSIS The following analysis is the product of DSSis strategic analysis team using scenario planning to make sense of the current situation and the war on terrorism. During the course of exploring future scenarios, past events acquired meaning, and the direction of the conflict as desired by Al-Qaida began to make sense. EXECUTIVE SUMMARY DSSis strategic scenario analysis regarding Al-Qaidas endgame leads to the following conclusions about the real current events: The network of networks known as Al-Qaida has successfully laid a trap for the United States. Al-Qaida retains the initiative and the U.S. is operating inside the intentions and plans of Al-Qaida Al-Qaida cannot destroy the U.S. forces inside the U.S., nor can it convince the U.S. to leave the Middle East using terror attacks. The intention of the terror attacks is a provocation to force the U.S. to engage and deploy forces to the Middle East, where such forces could be destroyed The intention and purpose of Al-Qaidas plans are either to make the Middle East ungovernable, or to gain control of the petroleum production system in the region. Application of the oil weapon could be used to attempt to force withdrawal of U.S. presence in the region; outright destruction of the petroleum production system would leave the U.S. with no or greatly reduced real interests in the region Control or destruction of the petroleum production system in the Middle East, and the potential for attacks on global petroleum production, would transform the political situation in the region, initiate a global depression by degrading or destroying critical industries of developing and advanced Nation-States, and drastically shift the geopolitical balance From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 7 11:57:21 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:57:21 -0800 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' References: <3.0.6.32.20011107114454.007ec930@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3BE99221.C39DE017@lsil.com> read it. the alternatives are not quite as cheap or plentiful or accessible as the Middle East and if many oil eaters start looking away from the ME there will be other problems too David Honig wrote: > > At 10:33 AM 11/7/01 -0800, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > > >Mainlining petroleum has helped put us at risk. Allowing automotive and > > Solution: we just buy oil from other places. Only transient > economic effects on us and many fewer body bags. > > See http://cryptome.org/alqaida-game.htm > > excerpt: > > AL- QAIDA S ENDGAME? > A STRATEGIC SCENARIO ANALYSIS > > The following analysis is the product of DSSis strategic analysis team > using scenario planning to make sense of the current > situation and the war on terrorism. During the course of exploring future > scenarios, past events acquired meaning, and the > direction of the conflict as desired by Al-Qaida began to make sense. > > EXECUTIVE SUMMARY > > DSSis strategic scenario analysis regarding Al-Qaidas endgame leads to > the following conclusions about the real current > events: > > The network of networks known as Al-Qaida has successfully laid a > trap for the United States. Al-Qaida retains the > initiative and the U.S. is operating inside the intentions and plans > of Al-Qaida > > Al-Qaida cannot destroy the U.S. forces inside the U.S., nor can it > convince the U.S. to leave the Middle East using > terror attacks. The intention of the terror attacks is a provocation > to force the U.S. to engage and deploy forces to the > Middle East, where such forces could be destroyed > > The intention and purpose of Al-Qaidas plans are either to make the > Middle East ungovernable, or to gain control of > the petroleum production system in the region. Application of the oil > weapon could be used to attempt to force > withdrawal of U.S. presence in the region; outright destruction of the > petroleum production system would leave the U.S. > with no or greatly reduced real interests in the region > > Control or destruction of the petroleum production system in the > Middle East, and the potential for attacks on global > petroleum production, would transform the political situation in the > region, initiate a global depression by degrading or > destroying critical industries of developing and advanced > Nation-States, and drastically shift the geopolitical balance From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 7 12:08:44 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:08:44 -0800 Subject: Sony and Robots...shows how crazy the "anti-hacking" regime has become Message-ID: <3EF840CA-D3BB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Saw this interesting application of the new hardware copyright/anti-tampering/anti-reverse-engineering regime in place" http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011107/tc/sony_robot_hack_1.html excerpt: "Wednesday November 7 2:20 PM ET Pet Robot Owners Mad at Sony By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer TOKYO (AP) - Many owners of the world's most sophisticated robot pet, the cuddly Aibo, are growling at Sony Corp (news - web sites). over its demand that a Web site stop distributing free software that teaches the machine new tricks. ``It was a very stiff legal position Sony took without regard to how it will affect the Aibo community,'' said Richard Walkus, a publishing house employee from Madison, N.J., who owns two Aibo robots but is now putting any new Aibo orders on hold. ``Sony is to some degree undermining its own success.'' In a letter last month, Sony told the owner of the AiboHack site that he was violating its copyright and altering its product without a license. It demanded a long list of Aibo software - including code that taught the machine disco steps and new words - be pulled off the site. --end excerpt-- This shows how crazy the laws have gotten. These robots are essentially computers, and the "hacks" are just new computer programs. Imagine: "Dell has announced they are are suing anyone who makes available software for their machines that Dell did not authorize." "Ford plans to protect its intellectual property by blocking after-market sales of trailer hitches, bed liners, light bulbs, and even motor oil not sold by authorized Ford dealers. "By examining our products and determining how to make things like trailer hitches, these pirates are in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright," said Ford spokesman Jason Natter." If robots cannot be reprogrammed, then neither can all sorts of other electronic gear that people routinely reprogram, improve, take apart, etc. Adding a programmable search function to a shortwave radio, for example, would fall under the same nonsensical terms as the Sony case. ObCypherpunks: I despise the DMCA, but my faith is not in having such laws overturned. In fact, the explosion of new laws is likely unstoppable. However, using technology to thwart traceability (*) is a means of monkeywrenching such laws. (* I wonder if anonymous remailers will someday be classed as "circumvention devices"? We debated this years ago, wondering whether the laws against unauthorized (!) possession of lock-picking tools and "burglar tools" could be used to de facto illegalize remailers.) --Tim May "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -- Nietzsche From hmail at heritagesports.com Wed Nov 7 13:05:01 2001 From: hmail at heritagesports.com (Heritagesports.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:05:01 -0800 Subject: Heritage Sports - Danny Report Message-ID: <245950-220011137215115@heritagesports.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 12327 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mean-green at hushmail.com Wed Nov 7 13:05:20 2001 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:05:20 -0800 Subject: Cash - egold co-op Message-ID: <200111072105.fA7L5Kd61575@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Egold attempts to solve a number of transactional issues, especially non-repudiation. It doesn't directly address privacy concerns. One aspect of establishing financial privacy is unlinkability and one of the best ways to offer that quality is to use bearer instruments during the buy and/or sale of an otherwise trackable transaction. I'd like to invite those with an interest in egold (and other metal backed ecurrencies) to contact me. If there is sufficent interest I'd like to kick off a cash-egold co-op to provide a introduction agency for these activities. I'll be at the Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting this Saturday ready to buy and sell limited amounts of egold. Come bring your web enabled and configured Sprint PCS phone or laptop with wireless link. If you wish to buy or sell more than a few hundred dollars please contact me by Friday. From update at aportis.com Wed Nov 7 13:31:02 2001 From: update at aportis.com (Aportis Updates) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:31:02 -0800 Subject: Get the New AportisDoc Converter Message-ID: <2622079-22001113721312720@aportis.com> **Please do not reply to this email - we will not be able to respond** Get the Brand New AportisDoc Converter ====================================== http://www.aportis.com/store/GetConverter.html We've created the perfect companion for your handheld eBook reader! You have always been able to download from thousands of eBooks on the internet and now, with AportisDoc Converter, you can take your own documents with you! With AportisDoc Converter, you can preview, edit and convert many file formats for use on your handheld. 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You were selected to receive this message because you have used our AportiDoc PDF Converter software. This is a one-time emailing, but if you would like for us to update your email address or to never contact you again, please tell us by at the web page of http://www.aportis.com/contactus.html Sent to: cypherpunks at toad.com **Please do not reply to this email - we will not be able to respond** From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 7 14:23:01 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 14:23:01 -0800 Subject: Sony and Robots...shows how crazy the "anti-hacking" regime has become Message-ID: <3BE9B445.8D26E4B7@lsil.com> Tim May wrote : >Saw this interesting application of the new hardware >copyright/anti-tampering/anti-reverse-engineering regime in place" > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011107/tc/sony_robot_hack_1.html > >This shows how crazy the laws have gotten. These robots are essentially >computers, and the "hacks" are just new computer programs. > >Imagine: > >"Dell has announced they are are suing anyone who makes available >software for their machines that Dell did not authorize." > > >--Tim May > I have my own gripe about this and related items. We've all read about MS's nasty license agreements and how they affect the spread of alternative operating systems. Well, I wanted to pick a decent graphics card that would be well supported under Linux. ATI has a lot of hooplah on their site about how they are Linux-friendly so I started there. The card I tentatively chose was the All-in-Wonder Radeon. It has MPEG2 HW, TV Tuner, Graphics engine, TV out. There is XFREE86 support and there is a project that has video capture working but no matter where I looked I couldn't find technical docs for the thing. Isn't that where most driver projects begin? It's what I've always stared with anyway. So I called their Developer Support number and was told, in spite of the talk about Linux support on the website, that they don't give that technical reference out to just anyone but that some information had been released to the Linux community. I have yet to locate exactly what was released. I know it does not include the register set description for the TVout portion and having seen SW DCT code in project sources I wonder if the HW is being put fully to use. A HW DCT makes a huge difference in performance. The net effect is that Linux development is hobbled. Is this because ATI is protecting some sort of IP? Anyway it kind of ticks me off. So there's more, I'm pretty suspicious of BIOS and MS OS snoopiness. Wouldn't it be nice to have open source BIOS? There is a Sourceforge project called FreeBIOS and a cousin called LinuxBIOS. Again, I like to start with documentation. Well the motherboard mfr offers little in the way of technical info. Same for the chipset mfr. Unless you're a corporate customer. I don't really have a lot of time to reverse engineer this shit but I'm just about mad enough to make time. Mike From popkin at nym.alias.net Wed Nov 7 06:38:01 2001 From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin) Date: 7 Nov 2001 14:38:01 -0000 Subject: enumeration References: Message-ID: <20011107143801.24805.qmail@nym.alias.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1090 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kmself at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 14:50:24 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:50:24 -0800 Subject: Entertainingly dangerous spam - Access and use your PC from anywhe In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@noisebox.remailer.org on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 10:32:46AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20011107145023.N11314@navel.introspect> on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 10:32:46AM -0700, Anonymous (nobody at noisebox.remailer.org) wrote: > Subject: Re: Entertainingly dangerous spam - Access and use your PC from anywhere > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net > > > > I received the following entertaining spam message. > > Their product > > "allows you to securely access and use your office computer > > from any Web browser anytime, anywhere." > > I wonder who else it allows to access from any web browser, anywhere :-) > > > [..] > > GoToMyPC allows you to securely access and use your office computer from > > any Web browser anytime, anywhere. > > > > TELEWORKERS: Work on your office computer from home, easily and > > securely, with just an Internet connection. > > TRAVELERS: Access and use your computer and files from hotels, > > airports, Internet cafes anywhere with Web access. > > AFTER-HOURS ACCESS: Access and use your office desktop, email and > > other corporate resources after hours from any location connected to > > the Internet. > > DEMONSTRATIONS: Invite your prospective buyers to remotely view your > > computer screen for on-the-fly demos. > > > > Download The Free Trial Now! > [..] The feature isn't entirely unlike, say, ssh, or VNC tunneled through same. Poking around the vendor's website indicates that there is some security offered. Note that this doesn't mean that the feature *is* secure, but remote access to computer systems in a controlled manner *is* possible. Naturally, insecure access is also possible, and access via untrusted hardware or software may pose a real risk. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hakkin at sarin.com Wed Nov 7 14:57:42 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 14:57:42 -0800 Subject: (Yet more) Not getting it: DoE removes nuke info (not) Message-ID: <3BE9BC66.9BE58A6F@sarin.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20011107/ts/doe_netsecurity011106_1.html The Energy Department stopped access to some of its Web sites containing nuclear site information, citing concern over unusually heavy traffic. The Department of Energy (news - web sites) has shut down access to some of its public Web sites, citing concern over unusually heavy traffic to online information about U.S. nuclear sites. Federal officials shut down the sites on Monday to try to protect information that had been available to the public but could be used by terrorists to launch an attack on U.S. nuclear facilities. Funny, location info is still up; check out your state at http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/reactors/states.html The Indian Point plant has two units in Buchanan, New York, Westchester County. The plant is located on 239 acres in the east bank of the Hudson River, 24 miles north of the New York City boundary. Consolidated Edison was one of the first utilities to purchase their own simulator for training the reactor operators and supervisors licensed by the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Unit 2 Operator: Consolidated Edison Co. Owner: Consolidated Edison Company of New York (100.0%) Reactor Supplier: Westinghouse Corporation Capacity: 941 net MWe Reactor Type: Pressurized water reactor Date of Operation: September 1973 License Expiration date: 09/28/2013 Electricity Produced in 2000: 1.00 billion kWh 2000 Average Capacity Factor: 12.05% Unit 3 Operator: New York Power Authority Owner: New York Power Authority (100.0%) Reactor Supplier: Westinghouse Corporation Capacity: 970 net MWe Reactor Type: Pressurized water reactor Date of Operation: April 1976 License Expiration date: 12/15/2015 Electricity Produced in 2000: 8.41 billion kWh 2000 Average Capacity Factor: 98.66% I think people have not quite gotten their hands around the speed at which information can be disseminated online. -Monica Lewinsky From cripto at ecn.org Wed Nov 7 06:14:54 2001 From: cripto at ecn.org (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:14:54 +0100 Subject: [CNN] FBI: Threat against Western bridges 'not credible' Message-ID: >Form over function. Same as airport security. Psyops. Like the warnings >to keep people off balance. Should we start a pool to see who can guess >when ashcruft will put everyone 'on highest alert' next? It'll probably The airport security show is clearly designed to intimidate sheeple. >From what I saw, the security consists of asking for photo ID 3 times instead of once (used to be at the check-in counter, now also when entering security check and at the gate). Mind boggles trying to understand how these two extra checks help. Is there a single documented case of a terrorist *not* having a proper ID ? Or losing the ID *after* the check-in ? The carry-on bagage X-raying and personal inductive test still fail to detect non-metallic knives, perhaps hidden in the shoes. Restaurants at airports still offer metal knives. After the security check. There are *so* many armed people at airports and so much more guns that inside jobs become much simpler than before. No one is going to ID armed man in military fatigue. Cockpit doors have better locks now, but I wonder where do pilots urinate during long flights ? From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 7 15:17:06 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:17:06 -0800 Subject: (Yet more) Not getting it: DoE removes nuke info (not) In-Reply-To: <3BE9BC66.9BE58A6F@sarin.com> Message-ID: <8FA97CE4-D3D5-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, November 7, 2001, at 02:57 PM, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20011107/ts/doe_netsecurity011106_1.html > > The Energy Department stopped access to some of its Web sites containing > > nuclear site information, citing concern over unusually heavy traffic. > > The Department of Energy (news - web sites) has shut down > access to some of its public Web sites, citing concern over > unusually heavy traffic to online information about U.S. > nuclear sites. This is very old news. As I reported at the end of September: On Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 09:24 PM, Tim May wrote: I was checking some of my URLs for maps of nuclear power plants, maps once heavily publicized as parts of civil defense preparedness plans from the U.S.G. Guess what? Many of them are gone. The Web caches are not fully useful, as the indexed sites point to the subpages containing the large image GIFs (and other formats). So Google's cache has the first page, but all attempts to access the subpages give the same "information no longer available" sorts of messages. The main Nuclear Regulatory Commission site no longer allows downloading of maps, and results in this message: http://www.nrc.gov/NRC/REACTOR/GEOSPATIAL/lvsites.html Nuclear Site Locations This site is no longer available. For another example, http://www.insc.anl.gov/pwrmaps/map/world_map.html "Unsuccessful Access to INSC Information > --Tim May "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." --John Stuart Mill From declan at well.com Wed Nov 7 12:18:45 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:18:45 -0500 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov>; from mv@cdc.gov on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800 References: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <20011107151845.A12643@cluebot.com> Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... -Declan On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. > > Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + > uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors > check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? From enenkio at webtv.net Wed Nov 7 17:48:20 2001 From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:48:20 -1000 (HST) Subject: Welcome to the EnenKio Online Network Message-ID: <26593-3BE9E464-740@storefull-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Welcome to the EnenKio Online Network These pages, this website, the former web host (NetNation), the government of the Kingdom of EnenKio and the people loyal to the king of Eneen-Kio Atoll have been subjected to a wide assortment of deliberate disruptive actions by persons and agencies of the federal government of the United States. The reasons for these attacks are unknown, as EnenKio seeks only peace and the freedom to express the fundamental rights of the people of EnenKio, its monarch and the imperatives bestowed upon us by our loving Creator. The following site has been restored to acquaint you with history, claims and challenges we face as a people striving for equality in a world of antagonist nations seeking egocentric goals to dominate lesser nations as "savior." ENTER NOW Send questions about this site to Administrator.  Copyright 2001 - All Rights Reserved. Background Photo: Courtesy EnenKio Archives "Peacock Point, Wake Island" Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade Mission DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall Islands http://www.enenkio.org From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Nov 7 16:02:43 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:02:43 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inchoate wrote: > If Hayek were alive today and you asked him... > > "Do you support a business in a free market > refusing to sell to Jews?" > > His answer would have been decidedly in the > negative. Let me get this right. Jimbo is CHANNELING Hayek? Yeah, right. S a n d y "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man." --True Grit (1969) From artcamp at artcamp.com.mx Wed Nov 7 14:41:30 2001 From: artcamp at artcamp.com.mx (Artcamp SC de RL) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 16:41:30 -0600 Subject: Buenos Dias Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011107164103.0216cdf0@www.artcamp.com.mx> Buenos Días. Receive greetings from our rural womens’ artisans cooperative in Guerrero México. Our road as women artisans in the Third World has not been easy in the past years it is hard. we do NOT mind working because it is honest, and necessary in order to support our families. It is still more difficult to sell our products sometimes, because of the costs of reaching the customers; to make a single telephone call to the United States for 20 minutes costs us what we earn in a days work. For this reason we sell mostly to wholesalers, because they purchase our products in larger quantities but we have to have orders constantly, because there is not much profit for us at the prices we sell at. Sometimes it happens that the wholesalers do not pay us at all they just refuse or won’t answer our calls; this does not happen very often but it does happen and this is very costly to us and makes us go backwards. We have been trying to reach the market more directly and so we have developed a website for that purpose; but the Internet site by itself does not solve the problem of how we may sell directly to retailers in the market. Our idea is to perform the part of the wholesaler who sells our product to the stores at profit; however good may be his or her intentions there is necessity to pay salaries and overhead and U.S. taxes and travel expenses Wholesalers have to pay all these costs somehow in order to keep on in business. We are the producers; we are the producers themselves, we transform the materials into the finished product: handcrafted jewelry. the key to our success will be to get a lot of orders to keep down the shipping expense per kilo that way we can ship the product to small customers in a single large container, that is the key. We are going to make an effort to solve the problem of our isolation from the market by creating the wholesaler function at the end of our village-based production system You can be very important in helping this project to succeed; if Artcamp can make the step up to becoming our own wholesalers, then we can get stronger and make a success for everybody. THANK YOU for taking the time to read this message. You can see our pictures modeling our own creations http://www.artcamp.com.mx/XA/18.html and working in our shop http://www.artcamp.com.mx/FG/c13.html Atentamente, Areli, Luz, Yolanda, Hilaria, Tamara, María, Angelica, Esperanza, Rocio, Minerva. and the other women of our cooperative ARTCAMP SC de RL “Artesanas Campesinas” From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Nov 7 16:42:02 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:42:02 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jim, you pompous ass, You wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > > Let me get this right. Jimbo is > > CHANNELING Hayek? Yeah, right. > > Not at all, > > http://www.mises.org/hayekbio.asp > > you should read the books instead of just > trusting other peoples interpretation... > he was decidedly against central or > control economices (ie fascism or > socialism). Of course I've read the books and of course I know he was against centrally planned economies. So what? Read your own stupid post again, moron. Your pretending to know what Hayek would say in your stupid hypothetical about denying service to Jews or whomever, is the height of hubris, you pitiful ignoramus. Have a nice day, S a n d y From kmself at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 16:44:29 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:44:29 -0800 Subject: Minneapolis, Nov 15: Fwd: [free-sklyarov] Bruce Schneier talk In-Reply-To: <20011107093436.A27697@gordo.space.umn.edu>; from crumley@mail.com on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:34:36AM -0600 References: <20011107093436.A27697@gordo.space.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20011107164429.Y11314@navel.introspect> on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:34:36AM -0600, Jim Crumley (crumley at mail.com) wrote: > > Students for Fair Copyright[1] is pleased to announce Bruce Schneier's > talk[2] about the DMCA on Thursday, November 15th at 7:00 in room > 2-690 of the Moos Tower on the University of Minnesota's Minneapolis > campus. This is the third lecture in our continuing series: > "Reclaiming the Public Domain: Intellectual Property in the Digital > Millennium." More details about the talk, including a link to a map to > Moos Tower, are available at the press release link below. > > 1. http://faircopyright.org/ > 2. http://faircopyright.org/press/schneier.html > -- > Jim Crumley | Free Dmitry Sklyarov! > crumley at fields.space.umn.edu | http://faircopyright.org/ > Work: 612 624-6804 or -0378 | http://freesklyarov.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov at zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Nov 7 16:56:24 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:56:24 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Butthead, You wrote: > It's interesting that in lambasting me for > 'knowing what Hayek would say' is EXACTLY > what you're doing. At least I back my > hubris with quotes from Hayeks works. Watch your attribution bonehead. I've not participated in the Hayek discussion at all except to point out your stupid attempt to PREDICT what Hayek WOULD HAVE SAID. Show us your Hyek "denying service to whomever" quotes. Can't, can you? Surrender, Dorothy. S a n d y _____________________________________________________________ If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority? W W \*\ /*/ The Road Kill Group |*| |*| /*////|\\\\*\ |\- (|||||||||||||\((x)\ -======-------------||---:> (|||||||||||||/((x)/ \*\\\\|////*/ |/- |*| |*| /*/ \*\ M M From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:21:53 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:21:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <00bc01c166d9$a76c6600$5300a8c0@marcel> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Marcel Popescu wrote: > You're still incredibly deluded. Even Hayek (bad as he is) would have > supported someone's decision NOT to sell to someone else, your rethoric > notwithstanding. BTW, do you have anything else besides "Tim is wrong"? (And > I'm no fan of Tim.) No, Hayek wouldn't have. Otherwise he wouldn't have been an apponent of regulated economies (in particular both socialist and fascist). Why was he against regulated economies? Because they don't offer the same opportunities to ALL the members of the market (buyer and seller alike). If Hayek were alive today and you asked him, "Do you support a business in a free market refusing to sell to Jews?" His answer would have been decidedly in the negative. Hayek supported 'free choice' for both buyer and seller. Applying a condition of sale to only a segment of the market, as opposed to the whole market (ie "No shirt, no shoes, no sale" versus "No shirt, no shoes, and your ugly, no sale") violates all three of the standards necessary for a free market. Hayek understood something you don't, a business is a public trust. It is not a pure expression of individual freedom. Why? Because it involves more than one party. One has the right to do as you want, UNTIL it effects another. Then they have a say. A business market with only one party is no market. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:23:24 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:23:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Trei, Peter wrote: > Try explaining that to the widow of the fireman who was trying to save your > house. And the house that are adjacent as well... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Wed Nov 7 19:24:57 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 17:24:57 -1000 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107172406.02c2def0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 04:42 PM 11/7/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Jim, you pompous ass, Why not just call him a dumb cunt? Socially, Reese From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:36:17 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:36:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. > > Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + > uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors > check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? You'll also need some servo controller for pan/tilt. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:38:35 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:38:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <20011107151845.A12643@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect > your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a > remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... Nah, just make sure your neighborhood is covered by several community networks like Seattle Wireless, or else put up an illegal packet radio system. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:43:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:43:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sony and Robots...shows how crazy the "anti-hacking" regime has become In-Reply-To: <3EF840CA-D3BB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: This is very old news... On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Saw this interesting application of the new hardware > copyright/anti-tampering/anti-reverse-engineering regime in place" > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011107/tc/sony_robot_hack_1.html > > excerpt: > > "Wednesday November 7 2:20 PM ET > > Pet Robot Owners Mad at Sony > > By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer > > TOKYO (AP) - Many owners of the world's most sophisticated robot pet, > the cuddly Aibo, are growling at Sony Corp (news - web sites). over its > demand that a Web site stop distributing free software that teaches the > machine new tricks. > > ``It was a very stiff legal position Sony took without regard to how it > will affect the Aibo community,'' said Richard Walkus, a publishing > house employee from Madison, N.J., who owns two Aibo robots but is now > putting any new Aibo orders on hold. ``Sony is to some degree > undermining its own success.'' > > In a letter last month, Sony told the owner of the AiboHack site that he > was violating its copyright and altering its product without a license. > It demanded a long list of Aibo software - including code that taught > the machine disco steps and new words - be pulled off the site. > > --end excerpt-- > > This shows how crazy the laws have gotten. These robots are essentially > computers, and the "hacks" are just new computer programs. > > Imagine: > > "Dell has announced they are are suing anyone who makes available > software for their machines that Dell did not authorize." > > "Ford plans to protect its intellectual property by blocking > after-market sales of trailer hitches, bed liners, light bulbs, and even > motor oil not sold by authorized Ford dealers. "By examining our > products and determining how to make things like trailer hitches, these > pirates are in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright," said Ford > spokesman Jason Natter." > > If robots cannot be reprogrammed, then neither can all sorts of other > electronic gear that people routinely reprogram, improve, take apart, > etc. Adding a programmable search function to a shortwave radio, for > example, would fall under the same nonsensical terms as the Sony case. > > ObCypherpunks: I despise the DMCA, but my faith is not in having such > laws overturned. In fact, the explosion of new laws is likely > unstoppable. However, using technology to thwart traceability (*) is a > means of monkeywrenching such laws. > > (* I wonder if anonymous remailers will someday be classed as > "circumvention devices"? We debated this years ago, wondering whether > the laws against unauthorized (!) possession of lock-picking tools and > "burglar tools" could be used to de facto illegalize remailers.) > > > > > --Tim May > "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a > monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also > into you." -- Nietzsche > From declan at well.com Wed Nov 7 14:57:33 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:57:33 -0500 Subject: Sony and Robots...shows how crazy the "anti-hacking" regime has become In-Reply-To: <3EF840CA-D3BB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:08:44PM -0800 References: <3EF840CA-D3BB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011107175733.A15303@cluebot.com> On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:08:44PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > (* I wonder if anonymous remailers will someday be classed as > "circumvention devices"? We debated this years ago, wondering whether > the laws against unauthorized (!) possession of lock-picking tools and > "burglar tools" could be used to de facto illegalize remailers.) Well, it would be trivial for a 'critter to write such a bill (less trivial, though hardly impossible) to get Congress to enact it. It could ban "electronic or computing devices that have as one of their primary purposes the facilitation of circumvention of copyright." Following that is a list of exceptions for general purpose PCs, etc. Anonymous remailers would not, of course, make the list. This is akin to the approach of Hollings' SSSCA. Or just enact a flat ban on remailers without identity escrow. I hosted a talk Monday with Ian Clarke, a very cypherpunkly type of fellow. We had a telecom lawyer show up and went through a brief how-to-shut-down Freenet thought experience. Especially after passage of the USA PATRIOT Act, it's sorta scary, at least for nodes hosted in, shall we say, hostile territory. -Declan From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 15:58:36 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:58:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Austin Cypherpunks Physical Meet - Tue. Nov. 13 Message-ID: Time: November 13, 2001 Second Tuesday of each month 7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later) Location: Central Market HEB Cafe 38th and N. Lamar Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables. If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside the building proper. Identification: Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography" book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick. Contact Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#austincpunks -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Nov 7 18:02:48 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:02:48 -0800 Subject: kuro5hin.org || An Introduction to Moral Theory Message-ID: <3BE9E7C8.F8FEFF40@lsil.com> The author has neglected to consider the 4th and 5th frameworks : BIGSTICKOLOGY. Wherein the existence of a disagreement defines the entire situation independent of the reference frameworks or the specific arguments of the participants and he with the biggest stick decides the moral question. THIRDPARTYBIGGERSTICKOLOGY. Wherin a third party, completely uninterested in the moral dilemma faced by the parties of the first and second part, has a bigger stick than either of them and resolves their moral dilemma by altering completely the moral landscape from which the contest arose in the first place rendering the arguments and opinions of the first and second parties irrelevant. Plus there could be a SIXTH and hitherto undiscovered framework. Dammit Jim, post reviews not just links. Mike From stevet at sendon.net Wed Nov 7 10:11:13 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:11:13 +0000 Subject: URL for Timothy May death story References: Message-ID: <200111071840.SAA16558@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Nomen Nescio (nobody at dizum.com): > APTOS - One of the country's most influential anarchist internet > activists was killed early Tuesday in a hail of gunfire when law officers > tried to arrest him on a warrant accusing him of aggravated assault. > > Timothy C. May, 50, whose apocalyptic, anti-government internet postings > were a major influence on Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, was > shot to death after May shot and critically wounded a Santa Cruz County > sheriff's deputy who had tried to arrest him, officers said. > > Sandy Sandfort, a Bay Area lawyer and friend of May, said he didn't > think the police operation was unjustified. > > "I think Tim just went nuts. He was looking for martyrdom anyway and > swore he would never surrender," Sandfort said. "They had him dead to > rights on the aggravated assault." > > "He had vowed that he would not be taken alive," said Tom McCombs, > a spokesman for the U.S. Marshal's Service in Santa Cruz. > > A spokesman for a group that tracks anarchists said the shooting wasn't > surprising given May's history. In addition to his postings, he was > known within the anarchist movement for an influential document called > the Cyphernomicon, in which he wrote about overthrowing governments. > > "For more than 3 1/2 years, he had been holed up in his house in > Corralitos, threatening to kill police officers and federal agents," > said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center. "He was talked about > as a guy who talked crazy and made a lot of threats. The reality is that > people like him are frequently exceedingly dangerous." My condolances to Mr. May's family. He will be missed. Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:25:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:25:48 -0600 Subject: The Register - ICANN scraps conference agenda, goes big on security Message-ID: <3BE9D10C.3B04F6E4@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/22695.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:33:46 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:33:46 -0600 Subject: kuro5hin.org || An Introduction to Moral Theory Message-ID: <3BE9D2EA.D80413B0@ssz.com> http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/11/6/194745/177 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Wed Nov 7 20:34:30 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:34:30 -1000 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107172406.02c2def0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107183400.02ae6980@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 09:31 PM 11/7/01 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > >On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > >> At 04:42 PM 11/7/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >> >Jim, you pompous ass, >> >> Why not just call him a dumb cunt? > >Because thats *your name*, you dumb cunt. Fuck you. ;) Reese From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:39:28 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:39:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Let me get this right. Jimbo is CHANNELING Hayek? Yeah, right. Not at all, http://www.mises.org/hayekbio.asp you should read the books instead of just trusting other peoples interpretation...he was decidedly against central or control economices (ie fascism or socialism). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 7 09:40:14 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:40:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: URL for Timothy May death story Message-ID: APTOS - One of the country's most influential anarchist internet activists was killed early Tuesday in a hail of gunfire when law officers tried to arrest him on a warrant accusing him of aggravated assault. Timothy C. May, 50, whose apocalyptic, anti-government internet postings were a major influence on Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, was shot to death after May shot and critically wounded a Santa Cruz County sheriff's deputy who had tried to arrest him, officers said. Sandy Sandfort, a Bay Area lawyer and friend of May, said he didn't think the police operation was unjustified. "I think Tim just went nuts. He was looking for martyrdom anyway and swore he would never surrender," Sandfort said. "They had him dead to rights on the aggravated assault." "He had vowed that he would not be taken alive," said Tom McCombs, a spokesman for the U.S. Marshal's Service in Santa Cruz. A spokesman for a group that tracks anarchists said the shooting wasn't surprising given May's history. In addition to his postings, he was known within the anarchist movement for an influential document called the Cyphernomicon, in which he wrote about overthrowing governments. "For more than 3 1/2 years, he had been holed up in his house in Corralitos, threatening to kill police officers and federal agents," said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center. "He was talked about as a guy who talked crazy and made a lot of threats. The reality is that people like him are frequently exceedingly dangerous." From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:42:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:42:37 -0600 Subject: The Friedrich Hayek Quote Page Message-ID: <3BE9D4FD.9BFB741B@ssz.com> http://www.hayekcenter.org/friedrichhayek/hayekquote.htm I'm still waiting for one of you self-professed C-A-C-L geniuses to provide a quote or cite in Hayek's work to support your view. If I'm so wrong in my interpretation it should be trivial for you to do so... -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:53:39 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:53:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Hayek quotes Message-ID: Liberty not only means that the individual has both the opportunity and the burden of choice; it also means that he must bear the consequences of his actions. Liberty and responsibility are inseperable. "The Constitution of Liberty" I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the judicial safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice. "Economic Freedom and Representative Government" -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 7 16:53:59 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:53:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Minneapolis, Nov 15: Fwd: [free-sklyarov] Bruce Schneier talk In-Reply-To: <20011107164429.Y11314@navel.introspect> Message-ID: Fuck Bruce Schneier. On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote: > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:44:29 -0800 > From: Karsten M. Self > Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > To: Cypherpunks List > Subject: CDR: Minneapolis, Nov 15: Fwd: [free-sklyarov] Bruce Schneier talk > > on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:34:36AM -0600, Jim Crumley (crumley at mail.com) > wrote: > > > > Students for Fair Copyright[1] is pleased to announce Bruce Schneier's > > talk[2] about the DMCA on Thursday, November 15th at 7:00 in room > > 2-690 of the Moos Tower on the University of Minnesota's Minneapolis > > campus. This is the third lecture in our continuing series: > > "Reclaiming the Public Domain: Intellectual Property in the Digital > > Millennium." More details about the talk, including a link to a map to > > Moos Tower, are available at the press release link below. > > > > 1. http://faircopyright.org/ > > 2. http://faircopyright.org/press/schneier.html > > -- > > Jim Crumley | Free Dmitry Sklyarov! > > crumley at fields.space.umn.edu | http://faircopyright.org/ > > Work: 612 624-6804 or -0378 | http://freesklyarov.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > free-sklyarov mailing list > > free-sklyarov at zork.net > > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > > -- > Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ > What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave > http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free > Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org > Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html > > [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 16:56:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:56:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Jim, you pompous ass, There's the pot calling the kettle black... > Of course I've read the books and of course I know he was against centrally > planned economies. So what? He was against more than 'planned economies'. Apparently you didn't read the books as well as you believe, or else you only remember what serves yoru personal goals. Either way, it's a skewed perspective. > Read your own stupid post again, moron. Your > pretending to know what Hayek would say in your stupid hypothetical about > denying service to Jews or whomever, is the height of hubris, you pitiful > ignoramus. Sticks and stones. It's interesting that in lambasting me for 'knowing what Hayek would say' is EXACTLY what you're doing. At least I back my hubris with quotes from Hayeks works. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From WWolfDrafting at cs.com Wed Nov 7 16:07:50 2001 From: WWolfDrafting at cs.com (WWolfDrafting at cs.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:07:50 EST Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <20.1e9fa382.291b26d6@cs.com> Hi, I'm looking for the words to the poem "Sarah Cynthia Slvia Stout would not take the garbage out". I last heard it on Dr. Dimento about 1973. Got any ideas??? thanks, Lori From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 7 17:57:34 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:57:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: So, do we bomb south america??? Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/11/07/inv.terror.south/index.html ... Sources tell CNN they believe the tri-border area is being used as a haven and source of funding for terrorists linked to Iran's Party of God, and to organizations that work closely with Osama bin Laden. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Wed Nov 7 11:12:05 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:12:05 +0100 Subject: Osama Says Message-ID: <15c7f9d1ea83e5917d5c78f12e11c7e2@mix.winterorbit.com> >Full text (translated into English) of his latest communication: He should keep his mouth shut. Or at least copyright his speeches and prevent unauthorised translations. He seems to be a cross between primitive religious dickhead of the TV-evangelist sort and a texan politician. But he never got his show, so ... The fact that a bigot like this can attract some sympathies from the "west" dissidents (and that's what most cpunks are) tells how bad it became in our cherished western part of the world. From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Nov 7 20:17:17 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:17:17 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107172406.02c2def0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > Message-ID: Reese wrote: > At 04:42 PM 11/7/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >Jim, you pompous ass, > > Why not just call him a dumb cunt? Reese might have a point here. When Reese uses a derogatory term for women, he demeans all women. By calling Jimbo a pompous ass, I am demeaning all donkeys. S a n d y From mattd at useoz.com Wed Nov 7 01:36:10 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 20:36:10 +1100 Subject: WILLIAM COOPER american martyr Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011107202243.00a28e30@pop.useoz.com> Sympathies,solidarities with family,friends and fellow free spirits.I feel deeply saddened by this news.Dark times. Special best wishes to tim,I cant imagine his feelings now and for my own balance wouldnt want to. The psychology,preparation,training and methods of the french resistance might distract us from our grief. Commiserations comrades."Send not to know... From ocorrain at esatclear.ie Wed Nov 7 12:59:08 2001 From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiarn=E1n=20=D3=20Corr=E1in=20?=) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:59:08 +0000 Subject: Osama Says In-Reply-To: <20011107171218.63991.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011107171218.63991.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200111072058.UAA13807@wonka.esatclear.ie> On Wednesday 07 November 2001 17:12, Morlock Elloi wrote: > > Full text (translated into English) of his latest communication: > > I see. The We Kill Others variety. > > What is Islam's position on encryption, BTW ? Several of the oldest cryptological (and cryptographic) texts were written by Arab mathematicians. You should be able to find references with Google. Tiarnan -- Tiarnán Ó Corráin Alliance: In international politics, the union of two thieves who have their hands so deeply inserted in each other's pocket that they cannot separately plunder a third. -- Ambrose Bierce From faustine at lokmail.net Wed Nov 7 18:11:54 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 21:11:54 -0500 Subject: DoD WMD Terrorism Panel: open meeting Message-ID: <200111080211.VAA18364@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2614 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 11:22:47 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:22:47 +0200 Subject: URL for William Cooper death story References: <3BE95652.49C84A26@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <015701c167c1$9591bd70$5300a8c0@marcel> > "former Marine and Persian Gulf War veteran, was > shot twice in the head by what was believed to be a .45-caliber pistol. > The officer was expected to survive" > > Geez that kinda blows the large-caliber theory... should have used > a rifle.. Nah, he was a cop, he wasn't using the brain anyway... Mark From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 7 19:31:25 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:31:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107172406.02c2def0@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Reese wrote: > At 04:42 PM 11/7/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >Jim, you pompous ass, > > Why not just call him a dumb cunt? Because thats *your name*, you dumb cunt. > Socially, > > Reese -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 19:34:41 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:34:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: wireless modems In-Reply-To: <20011108021241.8695C528DC@smtp.cronos.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 @einstein.ssz.com wrote: > Is there any good info out there to snag wireless modems off UHF and simply > recieve not handshake? I just want to recieve. thanks If you want 802.11b then look into AirSnort -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 7 12:40:04 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:40:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us Message-ID: <4c4eed4b242253b2e03be1305750919f@dizum.com> Tim May: > These 50 kids will find their innermost thoughts and crimes "in their > permanent records." When they apply for jobs in 15 years, when they seek > political office, when they try to get security clearances. > > eBlack, the new anonymous bidding service, has an offer for e2400 for a > complete set of these files. And yet we expect airport screeners to ignore past acts of terrorism by a wild-eyed fanatic boarding a plan, and observe strict neutrality, spending not one second more on him than on the guy taking the wife and kids to see grandma. The airport guards are supposed to forget the past and rely only on what limited information they can gather in the few seconds they have for inspection. Anybody notice the inconsistency here? Why support data repositories to keep people's past transgressions alive, while calling for willful ignorance on the part of those charged with protecting the lives of the flying public? Information is good. More is better. Airport security should know everything possible about those boarding the planes. Blacknet will gladly make the data available, for a fee. Neither Tim May nor anyone else can stop the flow of information. From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 7 22:06:14 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:06:14 -0800 Subject: kuro5hin.org || An Introduction to Moral Theory In-Reply-To: <3BE9E7C8.F8FEFF40@lsil.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107220520.03a07cf8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:02 PM 11/7/2001 -0800, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >The author has neglected to consider the 4th and 5th frameworks : > >BIGSTICKOLOGY. Wherein the existence of a disagreement defines the >entire situation independent of the reference frameworks or the specific >arguments of the participants and he with the biggest stick decides the >moral question. > >THIRDPARTYBIGGERSTICKOLOGY. Wherin a third party, completely >uninterested in the moral dilemma faced by the parties of the first and >second part, has a bigger stick than either of them and resolves their >moral dilemma by altering completely the moral landscape from which the >contest arose in the first place rendering the arguments and opinions of >the first and second parties irrelevant. I think this was the story line behind "The Day the Earth Stood Still". steve From holdingint at GBFJ.hotmail.com.toad.com Wed Nov 7 22:10:09 2001 From: holdingint at GBFJ.hotmail.com.toad.com (holdingint at GBFJ.hotmail.com.toad.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:10:09 -0800 Subject: cypherpunks-unedited,is that true? -HXHN Message-ID: <200111080610.WAA03835@ecotone.toad.com> "REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS BELOW" Hi cypherpunks-unedited, this is Dan Holding . I've been teaching people how to achieve financially freedom for the last 10 years. so cypherpunks-unedited, if you are still serious about that read on... Last month I introduced new people, just like you, and they've already made between $300 and $1250 in their first month! The beauty of that income is that it's residual income so it comes back every month just like a royalty... And the best part is! "YOU" can achieve that as well, regardless of your background or education. Why am I so sure?.. Because I've got a Formula that works like a cookie cutter. So simple that even my 12 year old niece could do it but the fact of the matter is she's not at legal age. Imagine yourself making residual income from home, from behind your computer... Did you know that the average home business generates over $50.000 in annual income? That means no boss anymore, no Monday morning blues, extra vacations, extra money instead of lack of money, not having to say "I can't afford it" to your kids, free time, and more importantly, the FREEDOM of being your own boss without the stress most corporate dude's have... If you can see yourself in that position, if you are still serious, and you haven't given up on your self, then send me an Email and I'll share this simple secret "How You Too Can Capitalize On The Home Based Business Trend." Email me at: holdingint at hotmail.com and write: "Dan, send me more info" in the Subject Line together with your name in the body. You will receive an Email with more information immediately. DO NOT reply to this e-mail! (Please only mail me if you're serious) Sincerely, Dan Holding P.S. If you act fast I'll let you test drive my formula 100%FREE. That's how confident I am that you'll succeed. There's nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Email me at: holdingint at hotmail.com and write: "Dan, send me more info" in the Subject Line together with your name in the body. This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill section 301. Under Bill S. 1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress. This message cannot be considered Spam as long as we include the way to be removed, Paragraph (a)(c) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by Replying to this message with REMOVE in the subject. From ocorrain at esatclear.ie Wed Nov 7 14:22:22 2001 From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiarn=E1n=20=D3=20Corr=E1in=20?=) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:22:22 +0000 Subject: Arab/Muslim contributions to crypto In-Reply-To: <200111072058.UAA13807@wonka.esatclear.ie> References: <20011107171218.63991.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> <200111072058.UAA13807@wonka.esatclear.ie> Message-ID: 'The Origins of Cryptology: The Arab contributions', by Ibrahim A Al-Kadi Cryptologia, volume 16, no 2 (April 1992), pages 97-126. A discussion of recently discovered Arab manuscripts. http://www.networkcomputing.com/netdesign/1007part1comp.html Ever since man started communicating with one another, there has been a need to keep secrets. Cryptography is defined as the principles, means, and methods for rendering information unintelligible, and for restoring the encrypted information back into intelligible form. In other words, cryptography is the science of writing in secret. Examples of cryptography have been discovered in the writings of Egyptians over 4,000 years ago. The ancient Greek, Chinese, and Roman civilizations used surprisingly advanced cryptography techniques. The use of cryptography, and the analysis of cryptography (cryptoanalysis), flourished in the Arab world during the Middle Ages. While lovers and theologians have long made use of secret messages, the overwhelming use of secret writing has historically been in diplomacy and the military. http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/11/07/reviews/991107.07ossermt.html The first big breakthrough in decipherment was made in the ninth century by the Arab philosopher al-Kindi in a treatise only recently rediscovered. For a thousand years or more, a message coded in a random monoalphabetic cipher was considered undecipherable unless one had the key to the code. Remember, 'algorithm' and 'algebra' are Arabic in origin. -- Tiarnán Ó Corráin Alliance: In international politics, the union of two thieves who have their hands so deeply inserted in each other's pocket that they cannot separately plunder a third. -- Ambrose Bierce From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 7 22:25:01 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:25:01 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: References: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107221946.05257e80@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:01 PM 11/7/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > > DSL line could be clear across town. > >Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred >yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking >directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does >that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, >gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" At 2.4 GHz there is little need for a parabolic to achieve 12dB or more gain. Small, flat, slot and yaggis may be constructed on circuit boards and placed in innocuous enclosures and even hidden in walls. >If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else >use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). 10-20 dB amps for 2.4 are readily available and relatively inexpensive. steve From wolf at priori.net Wed Nov 7 22:36:43 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:36:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Item from another list qouted without comment In-Reply-To: <801F78C0-D352-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Yep, it looks like Agent Farr all right--I recognize her fractured, > incomprehensible style. Perhaps it's a steganographic communique. > Agent Farr wants "guys doing surreptitious entry" to have "better > recognition training." > > Not surprising, but it ought to convince even the charitable amongst us > who wanted to give "Aimee Farr" the benefit of the doubt that she/he is > clearly advising LEOs. Yes, well. So is anyone posting information from which LEOs would benefit to public mailing lists known to be monitored by those LEOs. -MW- From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 7 20:45:14 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:45:14 -0600 Subject: Enemy at the Door References: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> <20011107151845.A12643@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That DSL line could be clear across town. Declan McCullagh wrote: > Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect > your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a > remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... > > -Declan > > On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > > >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. > > > > Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + > > uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors > > check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Thu Nov 8 00:54:21 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:54:21 -1000 Subject: Fwd: more on Nancy Oden Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107224724.00d6bb30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Sorry Sandy, I got it right the first time - it is not an insult to all other women because I specifically identified her, I did not make a general statement about all women - pc-ism be damned. ****************************************************** The following message was posted to [a list] ****************************************************** Hi all, I hate talking about individuals on a list like this, but the misleading statements being put out by one Nancy Oden need rapid rumor control. Defending her half-truths would make us look silly. I got to meet Nancy three years ago when she was in Seattle for the national committee meeting of the activist organization known as "the Greens/Green Party USA," which should not be confused with the national electoral organization, "the Green Party of the United States," which nominated Ralph Nader for President and helped get him on the ballot in 44 states. Nancy was incredibly rude to her fellow activists. She talked endlessly about how mean the Maine Green Party had been to her, and about how evil the Greens from "that other Green organization" were. I dismissed her as a run-of-the-mill kook. Then, this past spring, she somehow got elected to the three-member Coordinating Committee of G/GPUSA. Her tenure involved a string of 2-1 decisions taking authority away from the larger Green National Committee, and shutting down various processes in the bylaws that were used to try to overrule her. Eleven of the 13 state parties then affiliated with G/GPUSA had called for a membership referendum on the "Boston Proposal for Unity." (Only six are needed to call such a referendum.) Nancy used her power on the CC to prevent any money being spent to hold the referendum, and continually threatened to fire the two staffers who were trying their best to obey the bylaws. To say that Nancy was abusive toward the staff would be an understatement. When the pro-unity supermajority was unable to ever get a vote called on the Boston Proposal, most of the state parties started disaffiliating. G/GPUSA is now down to four state parties, two of which are still in the process of disaffiliation. Meanwhile, GP-US, which is expected to finally be recognized as "the national committee of the Green Party" by the Federal Elections Commission some time in the next two weeks, has 33 affiliated state parties. Nancy Oden got elected to the G/GPUSA CC on a platform of "real democracy, where We the People ..." Instead, she ran the organization with an iron fist and sent nearly everyone fleeing to more productive ground. Nancy's latest heavy-handed rhetoric does not match up with what I've been reading in the Bangor news. She was not targeted at the airport because she was a leader of the G/GPUSA. She was targeted because she was rude to the security officers. Indeed, the FBI say they had no idea who she was. Other Green Party leaders have had no trouble whatsoever flying. Nancy was not banned from flying. She was simply not allowed to fly that day. Nancy said she did not put up resistance to having her purse searched (a standard procedure long before 9/11) or personal search. She just went crazy at the metal-detecting wand. I know Nancy well enough to know why she would freak out at the use of such a radioactive instrument around her body. She is a long-time anti-nuke activist. We risk delegitimizing ourselves by defending Nancy Oden's hysterical account of airport security. We'd also be causing more well-intentioned Green-Party-activist wannabes to go to G/GPUSA's web site and pay dues to G/GPUSA, not knowing that it is not the national Green Party that put together the convention in Denver and nominated Ralph Nader for president. If GP-US puts out a press release today, I hope it presents a more balanced account of what really happened between Nancy and airport security, and points out that Nancy's organization is *not* the national Green Party. Sorry to rag on fellow activists. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 20:54:47 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:54:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: More silly stuff ( was RE: Enemy at the Door ) In-Reply-To: <8f26ad84c9722c744bfa605ffc7dac5d@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Much funnier would be a spray of DMSO mixed with DMT. And reapplyed evertime Pihkal -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From karen.ryan12 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 14:54:54 2001 From: karen.ryan12 at yahoo.com (Karen Ryan) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:54:54 -0000 Subject: Try this on your mobile! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 25034 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 20:57:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:57:12 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Sources: Middle Eastern terrorists have South American link - November 7, 2001 Message-ID: <3BEA10A8.E5C8CE94@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/11/07/inv.terror.south/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 20:57:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:57:55 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Powell says U.S. will deal with Iraq eventually - November 7, 2001 Message-ID: <3BEA10D3.71A27A8F@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/07/ret.powell.iraq/ -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:01:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:01:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > DSL line could be clear across town. Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:02:09 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:02:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: Turkmenistan Travel Warning (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:28:04 -0500 From: PA List Manager To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV Subject: Turkmenistan Travel Warning Travel Warning United States Department of State Bureau of Consular Affairs Washington, DC 20520 TURKMENISTAN November 6, 2001 The Department of State urges U.S. citizens to defer travel to Turkmenistan at this time. While the Department of State has authorized the return of embassy personnel in non-emergency positions and family members of embassy personnel effective November 6, 2001, the September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States and the proximity of Turkmenistan to Afghanistan have raised ongoing concerns for the safety of American citizens in Turkmenistan. Afghanistan is the site of military operations and continues to harbor international terrorist Usama bin Laden. The U.S. Embassy in Ashgabat will continue to employ heightened security precautions. All American citizens in Turkmenistan are urged to review their personal security situations and to take those measures they deem appropriate to ensure their well-being. The Government of Turkmenistan has taken steps to increase security throughout the country. Nevertheless, the current situation in the region requires that all Americans in or traveling through Turkmenistan evaluate carefully the implications for their security and safety. Americans who decide to remain in or visit Turkmenistan should exercise caution and take all appropriate measures to ensure their personal safety and monitor the local news. U.S. citizens in Turkmenistan are strongly urged to register and obtain updated security information at the American Embassy in Ashgabat. The U.S. Embassy is located at 9 Pushkin Street, off Maqtymquly Street. The telephone number is 993-12-35-00-45, fax number 993-12-51-13-05. For further general information regardinq travel to Turkmenistan, U.S. citizens should consult the Department of State's Consular Information Sheet on Turkmenistan, available via the Internet at http://travel.state.gov. This Travel Warning supersedes the Travel Warning of September 19, 2001 and alerts Americans to ongoing security concerns in Turkmenistan and to the discontinuation of the authorized (voluntary) departure status of non-emergency personnel and family members of U.S. Embassy personnel. *********************************************************** See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for State Department Travel Warnings ************************************************************ To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs_cms.html From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:05:43 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:05:43 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - U.S. wants new sanctions against Iraq - November 7, 2001 Message-ID: <3BEA12A7.2F3A7788@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/07/gen.us.iraq.sanctions/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 7 23:10:13 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:10:13 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <20011108003130.E1579@die.com> References: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107225622.053c5470@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:31 AM 11/8/2001 -0500, Dave Emery wrote: >On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:01:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > > > Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > > > DSL line could be clear across town. > > > > Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred > > yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking > > directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does > > that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, > > gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" > > > > If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else > > use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). > > > > I have read reports of people running WiFi links of up to 20 >miles. Given a clear path (clear line of sight) and relatively modest >sized directional antennas (not huge suspicious looking dishes) which >can be concealed under rf transparent radomes (hidden in an attic for >example with appropriate (fiberglass) roofing or siding, or behind a >glass picture window with curtains drawn) getting 10 to 20 mile ranges >is pretty easy with gain antennas on either end... not rocket science >either... and quite hard to spot visually (though of course a spectrum >analyzer with good preamps and antennas will find and locate any hidden >802.11 link in no time flat - one cannot radiate rf from a fixed >location and not be easily found using common TSCM tools). While I agree that spotting a low process gain, large, signal is straightforward with simple TSCM, locating a low power, high process gain signal (especially one which uses channel estimation techniques prior to transmission, for example "Low probability of intercept communication system," US Pat. No. 5,029,184) can thwart most TSCM tools. steve From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:12:06 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:12:06 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | Operation Acoustic Kitty Message-ID: <3BEA1426.DD6B40F6@ssz.com> I want whatever these guys are smoking... http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/07/2258212.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:13:46 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:13:46 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | EFF To Defend Music Swapping Service MusicCity Message-ID: <3BEA148A.F727FBF2@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/07/1648244.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:15:21 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:15:21 -0600 Subject: The Register - Linux security self-censorship ominous Message-ID: <3BEA14E9.D708DEED@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/22712.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From blancw at cnw.com Wed Nov 7 23:16:38 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:16:38 -0800 Subject: kuro5hin.org || An Introduction to Moral Theory In-Reply-To: <3BE9E7C8.F8FEFF40@lsil.com> Message-ID: Jim, stop posting those long articles to the list! Those little excerpts don't give a clue to the rest of the content, dammit! Jim, the headers don't match the links. Jim, stop posting old links. Dammit, those links are inaccurate, Jim. Dammit Jim, post reviews not, just links. Jim - will you wash my car . . . .. Blanc From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:16:58 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:16:58 -0600 Subject: Guardian Unlimited | Special reports | Bin Laden network 'plotted hundreds of attacks' Message-ID: <3BEA154A.695BC804@ssz.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,589675,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 7 21:29:14 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:29:14 -0600 Subject: Enemy at the Door References: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> <20011107151845.A12643@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011107235015.0228ce20@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3BEA17DA.FE54EFBC@cybershamanix.com> As someone else mentioned, "Seattle Wireless" scenario, or some form of packet radio, or .... Which broadband line would they disconecct? And what would those people think? Gee, the stock market T1 just went down. Anyway, so it's broadcasting 802, and the perps already know all the possible receivers? Now, maybe they could start jamming 802 -- or all the possible frequencies --- 8-) Duh! Declan McCullagh wrote: > Fortunately I do not lack the ability to comprehend modern English, but I > do lack the ability to read into a statement what is not there. Even if > your suggestion was intended, that DSL line could be shut down as well, > which was the point my response was intended to address. > > -Declan > > At 10:45 PM 11/7/2001 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: > >Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > >DSL line could be clear across town. > > > > > >Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > > Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect > > > your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a > > > remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... > > > > > > -Declan > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > > > > >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. > > > > > > > > Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + > > > > uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors > > > > check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? > > > >-- > >Harmon Seaver, MLIS > >CyberShamanix > >Work 920-203-9633 > >Home 920-233-5820 > >hseaver at cybershamanix.com > >http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From specialoffers at freesamples.com Wed Nov 7 23:40:35 2001 From: specialoffers at freesamples.com (specialoffers at freesamples.com) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:40:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Samples Message-ID: <200111080740.fA87eZI28768@mail2.freesamples.com> PLAIN TEXT VERSION Dear Richard : Greetings from FreeSamples.com, where you choose the samples you want and have them shipped to you absolutely free! We'd like to gather a bit of information which could help make more samples available to you. Please got to the following URL and answer the questions. It's that easy! http://www.freesamples.com/emailfeedback/hair1.cfm?userid=50570054 Sincerely, Your Friends at FreeSamples.com Fun For The Taking! When you registered, you indicated you would like to receive information about special offers from our partners. To avoid receiving future notifications of special offers, please login to http://www.FreeSamples.com?v=pe2 and go to the My Preference page to update your preferences. This message was sent from a send only email address, please do not reply to this email. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6899 bytes Desc: not available URL: From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 7 21:42:07 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:42:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > And yet we expect airport screeners to ignore past acts of terrorism > > > by a wild-eyed fanatic boarding a plan, > > > > I don't recall anybody being required to do that. Quite a stretch, > > unless you can cite an example. > > Read this from Tim May, November 3: > > It really is no business of government to know the identities of those > whose bags/etc. they are checking. Having government able to single out > some travellers for special processing is a recipe for this kind of > mischief. > > BTW, the _wrong_ tack to take would be some argument about a "right to > travel," some over-ruling of Southwest's or United's right to pick its > customers as it wishes. The preferred approach should be to have no ID > at the _security_ checkpoint and to not have any laws requiring ID tied > to tickets. > > He suggests having no ID or other history information available to > help screeners make their decision, nothing but whatever clues can be > gleaned in the brief moments available. Anybody want to fly *those* > friendly skies? I will. As long as the folks on my flight have been screened for weaponry, I don't give a fuck if they ar Pol Pot, Georgie Bush (I/II), or OJ Simpson. Even mass murderers (like the above list) should be able to fly if they are weapon-free. How would knowing Bush's _identity_ help to prevent him from killing people? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Nov 7 21:45:47 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:45:47 -0600 Subject: Enemy at the Door References: Message-ID: <3BEA1BBA.C539EC9F@cybershamanix.com> Go tell that to the Seattle/Portland/wherever wireless people. Or the people in rural MN who are putting them up on silos and running a 10 mile radius. Totally depends on your topography. And even with p-p they aren't doing parabolics, more like yagi directionals, which could be just another TV antenna, cut to the harmonic. Gee, maybe they'll start raiding home with TV antennas. Jim Choate wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > > DSL line could be clear across town. > > Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred > yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking > directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does > that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, > gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" > > If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else > use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. > > Bumper Sticker > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:48:44 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:48:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <20011108003130.E1579@die.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Dave Emery wrote: > I have read reports of people running WiFi links of up to 20 > miles. ONLY with a high gain parabolic. Not with a omni. Further, all it takes to find the other dish is look down that line of site. They're cheap cards, less than $100 each. The 802.11a, which are higher frequency, higher bandwidth came out last month. The AP's are supposed to hit the street on or right after the 15'th of this month. I'm going with 802.11a myself. The 'b' stuff seems a tad to kid toyish to me. YMMV. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Wed Nov 7 20:51:03 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:51:03 -0500 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> References: <3BE98E3E.C844A36C@cdc.gov> <20011107151845.A12643@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107235015.0228ce20@mail.well.com> Fortunately I do not lack the ability to comprehend modern English, but I do lack the ability to read into a statement what is not there. Even if your suggestion was intended, that DSL line could be shut down as well, which was the point my response was intended to address. -Declan At 10:45 PM 11/7/2001 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: >Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That >DSL line could be clear across town. > > >Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect > > your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a > > remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... > > > > -Declan > > > > On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > > > >> Of course you could connect an automated firearm. > > > > > > Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + > > > uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors > > > check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site? > >-- >Harmon Seaver, MLIS >CyberShamanix >Work 920-203-9633 >Home 920-233-5820 >hseaver at cybershamanix.com >http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 21:59:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:59:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BEA1BBA.C539EC9F@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Go tell that to the Seattle/Portland/wherever wireless people. Don't have to, see the commentary about 'if...directional...' Yagi's won't do that sort of distance either, maybe 3-5 miles. Blipverts (and probably never having actually touched a wireless card) strike again. > Jim Choate wrote: > > > yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking > > directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does > > that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, > > gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 7 22:29:00 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:29:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <742d53d0b5ebb66723f4a51328409d61@remailer.havenco.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Anonymous User wrote: > Has anyone actually tried DMSO and an over the counter potent > hallucinogen, say something on the order of Salvinorum? I assume you mean Salvia Divinorum? > This could, if it works, make a workable defensive weapons system for > joe blow, and there wouldnt be shit that the local pigs could do about > it. I've actually given this one some prior thought, and what worried me was that the delivery system (some type of water gun) would not likely be reliable enough to not get the crap all over the user as well as the target. And to tell you the truth, in the concentrations you would want to use as a weapon, you better be goddamn *certain* you don't get any of it on you while you're busy spraying the bad guys... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From die at die.com Wed Nov 7 21:31:30 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:31:30 -0500 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:01:10PM -0600 References: <3BEA0D8F.FA8D7BD9@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <20011108003130.E1579@die.com> On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:01:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That > > DSL line could be clear across town. > > Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred > yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking > directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does > that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, > gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" > > If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else > use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). > I have read reports of people running WiFi links of up to 20 miles. Given a clear path (clear line of sight) and relatively modest sized directional antennas (not huge suspicious looking dishes) which can be concealed under rf transparent radomes (hidden in an attic for example with appropriate (fiberglass) roofing or siding, or behind a glass picture window with curtains drawn) getting 10 to 20 mile ranges is pretty easy with gain antennas on either end... not rocket science either... and quite hard to spot visually (though of course a spectrum analyzer with good preamps and antennas will find and locate any hidden 802.11 link in no time flat - one cannot radiate rf from a fixed location and not be easily found using common TSCM tools). -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From jae at jerhard.org Wed Nov 7 15:33:47 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 00:33:47 +0100 Subject: Asscruft Puffery In-Reply-To: <3BD98989.5AD0C5B8@black.org> (message from Subcommander Bob on Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:04:26 -0700) References: <3BD98989.5AD0C5B8@black.org> Message-ID: >>>>> "Subcommander" == Subcommander Bob writes: Subcommander> At 07:42 AM 10/26/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote: >> Deliberate vagueness on Asscruft's part, I suspect. As I >> understand it, Subcommander> He is strutting and puffing like a rooster who Subcommander> watches his hens being taken away by a fox. The problem is: he likes it that way... because he's sick of them. Too much freedom, y'know. Bye, J -- J|rgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) My WebHome: http://jerhard.org SPACE: Above And Beyond (http://www.planetx.com/space:aab) "Windows NT" is an acronym for "Windows? No thanks." -- Russ McManus [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 23:05:39 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 01:05:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107221946.05257e80@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > At 2.4 GHz there is little need for a parabolic to achieve 12dB or more > gain. Yes, there is. > Small, flat, slot and yaggis may be constructed on circuit boards > and placed in innocuous enclosures and even hidden in walls. The panel antennas I've seen actually used (they are used in motels and such to 'beam' the sensitivity down the central hall) are lucky if they'll hit the other end of a football field. Yagi's might make it to 3-5 miles, no more. > 10-20 dB amps for 2.4 are readily available and relatively inexpensive. Yep, and illegal as hell if you hook them to a 802.11 anything. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 8 01:35:20 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 01:35:20 -0800 Subject: (Yet more) Not getting it: DoE removes nuke info (not) In-Reply-To: <3BE9BC66.9BE58A6F@sarin.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011108012208.03275b60@idiom.com> Aerial Photos of Indian Point Nuke Plant http://mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn/twn-map_results&zoom_level=10&uid=ue.0ybgb.6v9jeja:2xg4yslwa0&aphoto=1&SNVData=3mad3-h.fy%28w2lgrb_%29zbwd0r%3bpq%7cs9z,p7%3b8aq.hqu%3b%28_%13gxp21vr%3d%11K_%3dGG_qua09f%28.0a1x5y%28l%241w-u.wf7%3bxcx5sf7.grfe%7cs%247wv%28u&pcat=&zlgif.x=1 Topographic Map http://mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn/twn-map_topo_results&event=topo_scroll&dir=northwest&uid=ue.0ybgb.6v9jeja:2xg4yslwa0&SNVData=3mad3-h.fy%28w2lgu1_%29zbwlrz%3bah7-%13gxp21vr%3d%3a%28Rj9%2b%16xni_%3dGG_qua09f%28.0a1x5y%28l%241w-u.wf7%3bxcx5sf7.grfe%7cs%24jdvnd%7cOfl93w7l%3a%2b%11s4%2bCq8y%3cp8%3e%12vvkj0ej%2f%13iw8dvfqs%7c%2b%2brn%210znh%2b%2f%2b%29zb%26hay0 At 02:57 PM 11/07/2001 -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote: >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20011107/ts/doe_netsecurity011106_1.html >The Department of Energy (news - web sites) has shut down >access to some of its public Web sites, citing concern over >unusually heavy traffic to online information about U.S. nuclear sites. >Federal officials shut down the sites on Monday to try to >protect information that had been available to the public but >could be used by terrorists to launch an attack on U.S. nuclear facilities. >... >Funny, location info is still up; check out your state at > >http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/reactors/states.html > >The Indian Point plant has two units in Buchanan, New York, Westchester >County. >The plant is located on 239 acres in the east bank of the Hudson River, >24 miles north of the New York City boundary. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 02:16:35 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 02:16:35 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111081013.CAA09630@toad.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 02:21:31 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 02:21:31 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111081029.EAA06397@einstein.ssz.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 02:21:32 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 02:21:32 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111081018.CAA09718@toad.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 02:28:45 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 02:28:45 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111081025.fA8APrH27327@ak47.algebra.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From declan at well.com Wed Nov 7 23:28:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 02:28:50 -0500 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@dizum.com on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 06:30:03AM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20011108022850.A6967@cluebot.com> "Nomen" doesn't get it. One can say it's no business of government while supporting the right of private firms to do background checks on their passengers, or strip searches if that's what they feel is necessary. Of course that also means supporting the right of travelers to take their business elsewhere if they find the measures objectionable. -Declan On Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 06:30:03AM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > And yet we expect airport screeners to ignore past acts of terrorism > > > by a wild-eyed fanatic boarding a plan, > > > > I don't recall anybody being required to do that. Quite a stretch, > > unless you can cite an example. > > Read this from Tim May, November 3: > > It really is no business of government to know the identities of those > whose bags/etc. they are checking. Having government able to single out > some travellers for special processing is a recipe for this kind of > mischief. > > BTW, the _wrong_ tack to take would be some argument about a "right to > travel," some over-ruling of Southwest's or United's right to pick its > customers as it wishes. The preferred approach should be to have no ID > at the _security_ checkpoint and to not have any laws requiring ID tied > to tickets. > > He suggests having no ID or other history information available to > help screeners make their decision, nothing but whatever clues can be > gleaned in the brief moments available. Anybody want to fly *those* > friendly skies? From cypherpunks at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 18:12:41 2001 From: cypherpunks at ssz.com (cypherpunks at ssz.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 03:12:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: wireless modems Message-ID: <20011108021241.8695C528DC@smtp.cronos.org> Is there any good info out there to snag wireless modems off UHF and simply recieve not handshake? I just want to recieve. thanks From cypherpunks at ssz.com Wed Nov 7 18:12:58 2001 From: cypherpunks at ssz.com (cypherpunks at ssz.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 03:12:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: wireless modems Message-ID: <20011108021258.31377528E7@smtp.cronos.org> Is there any good info out there to snag wireless modems off UHF and simply recieve not handshake? I just want to recieve. thanks From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net Wed Nov 7 20:14:26 2001 From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel) Date: 8 Nov 2001 04:14:26 -0000 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us Message-ID: <20011108041426.1660.qmail@nym.alias.net> hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes: > I think people have not quite gotten their hands around the speed > at which information can be disseminated online. -Monica Lewinsky, > LATimes 9 may 01 > > > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-110701private.story > > November 7, 2001 > > Web Mishap: Kids' Psychological Files Posted By CHARLES PILLER, Times > Staff Writer > > Detailed psychological records containing th innermost secrets of at > e least 62 children and teenagers wer e accidentally posted on the > University of Montana Web site last week in one of the most glaring > violations of privacy over the Internet. > > The 400 pages of documents describe patient visits and offer diagnoses > by therapists of mental retardation, depression, schizophrenia and > other serious conditions. > > In nearly all cases, they contain complete names, dates of birth and > sometimes home addresses and schools attended, along with results of > psychological testing. > > Unlike a medical file left open on a counter in a doctor's office, > these electronic medical records, once placed on the Internet, > were exposed to a potentially vast audience. "You're talking about > sensitive information that could scar a child for life being available > to anyone for any purpose," said Evan Hendricks, editor of Privacy > Times newsletter. > > The mother of an 11-year-old, whose records of an attention > deficit/hyperactivity disorder were posted on the university's Web > site, was appalled. "He's just a kid, and he shouldn't have his whole > life splattered around for the whole world to know. It makes me sick," > she said. > > The mother declined to be identified. She recalled attending her son's > therapy sessions and watched the therapist "taking notes in her book, > and [I] thought maybe that was the extent of it. I guess I was kind of > naive about that." > > The medical files were placed on the University of Montana Web site > Oct. 29 and were available for eight days. The files were removed > Monday after a local paper, the Missoulian, reported the story, > university officials said. The records were for patients at clinics > mainly in Minnesota, as well as in Montana and other states. > > A University of Montana student or technical employee may have > accidentally placed these private files on the Web site, officials > said. > > It is unclear how many people viewed these records. > > The Montana case is the latest in a series of unauthorized disclosures > of medical data over the Internet. Earlier this year, Eli Lilly & Co., > maker of the antidepressant Prozac, inadvertently divulged the names > and e-mail addresses of 600 psychiatric patients in a mass e-mail. > > Similarly, Kaiser Permanente last year sent e-mails with confidential > medical information to the wrong Kaiser members. > > "That's the danger with having all of these electronic records," said > Daniel B. Borenstein, a former president of the American Psychiatric > Assn. and a UCLA professor. > > "If you push the wrong button or put something in the wrong spot on > your Web site, it [can mean] immediate distribution of a massive > amount of private medical information," Borenstein said. > > Last year, a Nevada woman bought a used computer only to find that > its previous owner, a drugstore, had left the pharmacy records of > thousands of patients on the machine's storage drive. But the buyer > did not publicly disclose the records. > > Also last year, a computer hacker broke into the medical records > system at the University of Washington Medical Center and gained > access to some 4,000 patient records--although these were not made > public. > > What sets the Montana incident apart is the youth of the patients, the > amount of detail disclosed and its placement on a public Web site that > allowed complete access to private records. > > The detailed accounts by therapists reveal children suffering from all > manner of emotional problems: > > "[She] has 'extreme mood swings' and is very aggressive with her > sisters and other children," read one file about an 8-year-old girl > diagnosed with autism and mental retardation. "She has been cruel to > animals, . . . often refuses to eat and will make herself vomit." > > An 8-year-old boy was described as suffering from "anger outbursts, > gender identity issues" and bed-wetting. > > Raymond Ford, the University of Montana technology manager, said the > incident is under investigation. "We have no evidence that this was > malicious--all the evidence that we have suggests that the person > who uploaded [the patient files] probably had no idea what [he was] > doing," he said. > > But once the records were placed on the school's Web server, a > computer that manages its online files, they became available to > Internet search engines and were visible to casual Web surfers who > requested a keyword contained in a patient's record. > > For example, a search for "confidential" or "neuropsychological" > turned up dozens of these medical records. Those files could then be > copied to the computer of any visitor. > > Therapists whose patients were involved were stunned by the lapse. > > "I'm shocked. I have no idea how this can happen. Obviously, this > information is confidential, and we go to great lengths to keep it > confidential," said Bonnie Carlson-Green, a psychologist at Children's > Hospital in St. Paul, Minn., the source of some of the patient > records. > > Ford said the university will attempt to tighten its Web security, but > that it must depend on users' vigilance and care to restrict private > materials. > > Medical records experts said the university has an ethical obligation > to inform the patients' parents. > > "The least the [university] can do is contact the families and let > them know that there was this error and the steps they've taken to > correct it," Borenstein said. > > "There should be special privacy protections for all medical records, > even more special protections for disclosure of any psychiatric > records," because of a real threat of discrimination against people > whose treatment for mental illness becomes known, Borenstein said. > > Borenstein fears that fewer people will seek treatment if they think > their private information may be accidentally disclosed. > > Many psychiatrists are so concerned about inappropriate electronic > disclosure of medical reports that they write only cryptic comments in > patient records, trusting the rest to memory, Borenstein said. > > David Aronofsky, the University of Montana's attorney, said accidental > online releases of private legal or medical information are not > unusual and are corrected quickly. > > Patients and medical institutions have not been contacted about > the release of these records. They will be contacted if it seems > necessary, after the internal investigation is concluded, Aronofsky > said. "We're not understating the significance of what happened here, > nor are we trying to cover it up," he said. > > Fiona Anderson, a University of Minnesota psychologist whose patient > records were among those released online, said the records may have > been removed against her institution's rules. > > "As things become more electronic and more easily accessed . . > . edited and altered, it's difficult for our ethical rules and > guidelines to keep up with the technology," she said. > > But such victims of accidental disclosures face steep legal challenges > to gain compensation, said Peter Swire, a law professor who was chief > privacy counselor for the Clinton administration. > > Part of the problem is new, more stringent federal standards for > medical records privacy will not take effect until 2003, and state > regulations vary widely. > > Posting a private document online--no matter how injurious it may > appear--can cause legal liability only if the victim can prove damages > in court. > > "What if one of the patients has something bad happen to him or her as > a result of this disclosure--if they are turned down for a job later > in life?" Swire said. "This is where you are open to a [legal] suit." > > As more medical records are stored digitally, routine electronic > disclosure to insurers and health maintenance organizations has > increasingly troubled some clinicians and privacy advocates, > although such transfers are legal and often required for provider > reimbursement. > > Paul Appelbaum, president-elect of the American Psychiatric Assn., > said patients should be given the option of having their information > kept on paper. > > A few health-care providers, such as the Harvard Pilgrim HMO, offer > such an option. > > The alternative for patients may be decreasing control over their > medical histories. > > Appelbaum added: "The mobility of electronic information is almost > unlimited." > > From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 7 20:20:07 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 05:20:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: More silly stuff ( was RE: Enemy at the Door ) Message-ID: <8f26ad84c9722c744bfa605ffc7dac5d@dizum.com> keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote : > Of course you could connect an automated firearm. (Crime Stoppers Note: > aways aim for the head to avoid protective vests) Any lawyers on the list > know what penalties might be brought. I seem to recall that tying a > shotgun to the door knob was ruled an "indescriminate weapon" But a > FaceCam controlled gun wouldn't be indescriminate. > > ks > ======================================================================== mmotyka says: A deadly weapon triggered by unreliable SW using a nonexistant database would just give away the fact that you're on to the enemy and cause you undue legal grief. If your own surveillance remains a secret you're in a stronger position. Besides, should you care to tip your hand you might start with something simpler like indelible purple dye. IIRC human skin has a replacement period of ~3 weeks. Chances are your intruders would be from some local or regional installation. Purple people shouldn't be too tough to spot as they make their way to the office and home again ( unless you live in California ). Your more aggressive tactics could then be employed at a time and place of your choosing. ============================================================================ Much funnier would be a spray of DMSO mixed with DMT. And reapplyed evertime they tried to get up. That way, if you made a mistake, and it got you -- oh well. But for a tensed up, uptight LEO -- he'd probably never recover. And still be there babbling for you to have a little fun with when you got home. From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com Wed Nov 7 22:15:31 2001 From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 06:15:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <742d53d0b5ebb66723f4a51328409d61@remailer.havenco.com> Has anyone actually tried DMSO and an over the counter potent hallucinogen, say something on the order of Salvinorum? This could, if it works, make a workable defensive weapons system for joe blow, and there wouldnt be shit that the local pigs could do about it. From alqaeda at hq.org Thu Nov 8 06:25:14 2001 From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 06:25:14 -0800 Subject: US web sites get US protection; french NAZIs stay in france Message-ID: <3BEA95CA.578006C8@hq.org> Judge Fogel's ruling holds that if you have a U.S.-based Web site, you are subject to U.S. law and you are protected by the First Amendment. Foreign court orders will not be enforced. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011107/wr/tech_yahoo_nazi_dc_1.html From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 7 21:30:03 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 06:30:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us Message-ID: Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Nomen Nescio wrote: > > And yet we expect airport screeners to ignore past acts of terrorism > > by a wild-eyed fanatic boarding a plan, > > I don't recall anybody being required to do that. Quite a stretch, > unless you can cite an example. Read this from Tim May, November 3: It really is no business of government to know the identities of those whose bags/etc. they are checking. Having government able to single out some travellers for special processing is a recipe for this kind of mischief. BTW, the _wrong_ tack to take would be some argument about a "right to travel," some over-ruling of Southwest's or United's right to pick its customers as it wishes. The preferred approach should be to have no ID at the _security_ checkpoint and to not have any laws requiring ID tied to tickets. He suggests having no ID or other history information available to help screeners make their decision, nothing but whatever clues can be gleaned in the brief moments available. Anybody want to fly *those* friendly skies? From xeni at xeni.net Thu Nov 8 06:57:58 2001 From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 06:57:58 -0800 Subject: AP: New scrutiny of sale of dead people's SS#'s Message-ID: New scrutiny of sale of the dead's Social Security data November 7, 2001 Posted: 8:39 PM EST (0139 GMT) WASHINGTON (AP) -- The federal government's practice of selling personal information about dead people -- including their Social Security numbers -- to anyone is getting a closer look after investigators determined that all 19 terrorist hijackers obtained numbers. The Social Security Administration has been required to compile its Death Master File since a 1980 court settlement that in essence said dead people do not have privacy rights. Identifying information, including Social Security numbers, must be made public under the Freedom of Information Act. The Death Master File contains 66 million to 70 million records with verified and unverified death reports, and includes Social Security numbers, full names, date of death, date of birth, state, county and ZIP code of the last known address. "As it is now, anybody in the world can go and buy that information," said spokesman Tom Tobin. The issue will be discussed at a hearing Thursday of the House Ways and Means Social Security subcommittee. All 19 terrorist hijackers involved in the September 11 terrorist attacks had Social Security numbers, and 13 obtained them legally, the Social Security Administration has said. It is unclear how the other six obtained their numbers. "People are making the speculation that did the terrorist get the numbers from the Death Master File? My personal guess is that, no they didn't," Tobin said. "There are a whole bunch of other ways to come up with fake identities. There are things that you could do with that file, and that might be one of them." Social Security obtains the information about deceased beneficiaries from family members, funeral homes, states, other federal agencies and financial institutions, and matches it to payment records to terminate benefits. That information is shared with other agencies to match their own records. It also is provided monthly to the Commerce Department's National Technical Information Service, which sells it to the public on a disk or file at a cost that reimburses Social Security for providing the information. More than 100 public and private institutions and companies such as banks, financial institutions, insurance companies, subscribe to the information, according to SSA information provided by Democratic congressional staffers. Subscribers include Web sites, such as Genealogy.com, Edata.com and Ancestry.com, and other businesses including Bank One, National City Bank, Cigna, EDS, Caterpillar Inc. and Lockheed Martin. A monthly subscription is $2,760 in North America, and a monthly international subscription is $5,520, according to the Commerce Department's Web site. Quarterly subscriptions are available for $6,900 in North America and $13,800 internationally. SSA sends the Death Master File to the Commerce Department via Federal Express but is considering transmitting the information electronically, SSA officials have said. Copyright 2001 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 05:04:27 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 07:04:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: ANN: Ciphermail 0.0.3 (prerelease) (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:36:33 +0100 From: Sebastian Horzela To: coderpunks at toad.com Subject: ANN: Ciphermail 0.0.3 (prerelease) Hello coder, I've developed a small mailinglistmanager called ciphermail that works with gnupg to encrypt and pseudo anonymize all communication between the listmembers and ciphermail. it's not much code (yet) and it's written in perl with crypt::gnupg and mime::lite, so it needs a cryptographic filesystem for /tmp because of the created temporary files created by these modules. There are a bunch of ideas out there what ciphermail should do in the next release, so we need some help to implement and improve it ;) Maybe someone has some spare time to commit a patch or two... i've set up a webpage under https://rijndael.killall5.de/~jules/ciphermail/ with more information about ciphermail, so maybe you're interessted in. Hmm. I hope my english is not to bad to get my intention for this mail ;) Bye, jules -- "The cypherpunks credo is 'privacy through technology, not legislation.' The law of the land can be changed by the next administration. The Laws of mathematics are more rigid." -- Express, March 14, 1997, Cover Story -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: URL: From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 05:09:25 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 07:09:25 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - District attorney to close LAPD corruption case - November 8, 2001 Message-ID: <3BEA8405.4E3A5CC2@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/08/lapdcorruption.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 05:16:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 07:16:12 -0600 Subject: Intelligence Shakeup Would Boost CIA (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3BEA859C.70232A16@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58657-2001Nov7.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Nov 8 08:51:01 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:51:01 -0800 Subject: more on Nancy Oden In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107224724.00d6bb30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: That's nonsense. Please explain the informational content of the word "cunt" as you used it. By the way, there is no validity in trying to hand the "PC" sign on me for two reasons: a) I'm about as far as you can get from being PC, and b) your use PC accusation makes sense ONLY if your use of the word "cunt" was meant as a general reference to women. You cannot have it both ways. S a n d y > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Reese > Sent: 08 November, 2001 00:54 > To: cypherpunks at minder.net > Subject: Fwd: more on Nancy Oden > > > Sorry Sandy, I got it right the first time - it is not an insult > to all other women because I specifically identified her, I did > not make a general statement about all women - pc-ism be damned. > > > > ****************************************************** > The following message was posted to [a list] > ****************************************************** > > Hi all, > > I hate talking about individuals on a list like this, but the > misleading statements being put out by one Nancy Oden need rapid > rumor control. Defending her half-truths would make us look silly. > > I got to meet Nancy three years ago when she was in Seattle for the > national committee meeting of the activist organization known as "the > Greens/Green Party USA," which should not be confused with the > national electoral organization, "the Green Party of the United > States," which nominated Ralph Nader for President and helped get him > on the ballot in 44 states. > > Nancy was incredibly rude to her fellow activists. She talked > endlessly about how mean the Maine Green Party had been to her, and > about how evil the Greens from "that other Green organization" were. > I dismissed her as a run-of-the-mill kook. > > Then, this past spring, she somehow got elected to the three-member > Coordinating Committee of G/GPUSA. Her tenure involved a string of > 2-1 decisions taking authority away from the larger Green National > Committee, and shutting down various processes in the bylaws that > were used to try to overrule her. Eleven of the 13 state parties then > affiliated with G/GPUSA had called for a membership referendum on the > "Boston Proposal for Unity." (Only six are needed to call such a > referendum.) Nancy used her power on the CC to prevent any money > being spent to hold the referendum, and continually threatened to > fire the two staffers who were trying their best to obey the bylaws. > To say that Nancy was abusive toward the staff would be an > understatement. > > When the pro-unity supermajority was unable to ever get a vote called > on the Boston Proposal, most of the state parties started > disaffiliating. G/GPUSA is now down to four state parties, two of > which are still in the process of disaffiliation. > > Meanwhile, GP-US, which is expected to finally be recognized as "the > national committee of the Green Party" by the Federal Elections > Commission some time in the next two weeks, has 33 affiliated state > parties. > > Nancy Oden got elected to the G/GPUSA CC on a platform of "real > democracy, where We the People ..." Instead, she ran the organization > with an iron fist and sent nearly everyone fleeing to more productive > ground. > > Nancy's latest heavy-handed rhetoric does not match up with what I've > been reading in the Bangor news. She was not targeted at the airport > because she was a leader of the G/GPUSA. She was targeted because she > was rude to the security officers. Indeed, the FBI say they had no > idea who she was. Other Green Party leaders have had no trouble > whatsoever flying. > > Nancy was not banned from flying. She was simply not allowed to fly > that day. Nancy said she did not put up resistance to having her > purse searched (a standard procedure long before 9/11) or personal > search. She just went crazy at the metal-detecting wand. I know Nancy > well enough to know why she would freak out at the use of such a > radioactive instrument around her body. She is a long-time anti-nuke > activist. > > We risk delegitimizing ourselves by defending Nancy Oden's hysterical > account of airport security. We'd also be causing more > well-intentioned Green-Party-activist wannabes to go to G/GPUSA's web > site and pay dues to G/GPUSA, not knowing that it is not the national > Green Party that put together the convention in Denver and nominated > Ralph Nader for president. > > If GP-US puts out a press release today, I hope it presents a more > balanced account of what really happened between Nancy and airport > security, and points out that Nancy's organization is *not* the > national Green Party. > > Sorry to rag on fellow activists. > > > > From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 08:57:14 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:57:14 -0800 Subject: Greens: "freak out...use of such a radioactive instrument" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107224724.00d6bb30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com > Message-ID: On Thursday, November 8, 2001, at 12:54 AM, Reese wrote: > ****************************************************** > The following message was posted to [a list] > ... > I got to meet Nancy three years ago when she was in Seattle for the > national committee meeting of the activist organization known as "the > Greens/Green Party USA," which should not be confused with the > ...much GreenSpeak elided... > Nancy was not banned from flying. She was simply not allowed to fly > that day. Nancy said she did not put up resistance to having her > purse searched (a standard procedure long before 9/11) or personal > search. She just went crazy at the metal-detecting wand. I know Nancy > well enough to know why she would freak out at the use of such a > radioactive instrument around her body. She is a long-time anti-nuke > activist. Earth to Greens: metal-detector wands are _not_ a "radioactive instrument_. A 7th-grade understanding of physics is all that is needed to know this. No wonder the Greens have such a backasswards view of so many things. Heinlein's quote below is especially appropriate. --Tim May "Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." --Robert A. Heinlein From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 8 08:58:28 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:58:28 -0800 Subject: Slashdot | Operation Acoustic Kitty In-Reply-To: <3BEA1426.DD6B40F6@ssz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011108085828.007df670@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:12 PM 11/7/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >I want whatever these guys are smoking... > >http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/07/2258212.shtml > Maybe the FBI will open a vetinerary clinic... in Scarfo's neighborhood. Maybe the FBI's undercover Housecleaning business staff will carry a bottle of ketamine and a scalpel.. Can you bug an Aibo? From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 8 09:08:06 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:08:06 -0800 Subject: Enemy at the Door In-Reply-To: <3BEA1BBA.C539EC9F@cybershamanix.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011108090806.007b0ac0@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:45 PM 11/7/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Go tell that to the Seattle/Portland/wherever wireless people. Or the >people in rural MN who are putting them up on silos and running a 10 mile >radius. Totally depends on your topography. And even with p-p they aren't >doing parabolics, more like yagi directionals, which could be just another >TV antenna, cut to the harmonic. > Gee, maybe they'll start raiding home with TV antennas. > The pages about 'pringle's chip canister yagis' show a piece of plumbing PVC enclosing the final package, a tube about the size of an arm. It doesn't look like a TV antenna, more like the microwave uplinks (Funny that.) from mobile tv vans, though those are usually helical. So the Ghz yagi is readily hidden. The 802.11 hacks claim a good 15 db with a homemade yagi. I think the RF deal is that you can't scale a yagi as far as you can a dish -past some number of segments the yagi doesn't give you more, but a dish keeps on giving (Areceibo for instance...) if you have the space for it and can take the wind. From mattd at useoz.com Wed Nov 7 14:15:20 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:15:20 +1100 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011108090055.00a28120@pop.useoz.com> Subject: ratted out "A CONFIDENTIAL FBI list of 370 people suspected of > helping Osama bin Laden's terrorist network has > leaked out. > > The names, addresses, telephone numbers, e-mail, > and social security codes of the suspects were > posted on the internet by Finland's Financial > Supervision Authority (RATA)." On the bright side the Hannsen files are being prepared for online release soon and reports of TMs death seem slightly premature.Also as psychiatrists tape evidence for clients trials and lawyers give their clients up,its comforting to have the ROCK of journalism to fall back on.(not sure about confessionals but they are looking better as an interview space. From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 09:46:26 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:46:26 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <3BEA603E.8F7FA333@mozcom.com> Message-ID: <8837126A-D470-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> The confusion "Nomen Nescio" shows in thinking that an is-a-person government tracking system fixes the airline security problem is common these days. It's the same confusion that causes many to think national I.D. cards will fix current pressing problems. They won't. This is the same "security ticket" problem that shows up in computer security with malicious actors obtaining passwords or other access permissions. The time-honored alternative for airline security, and many other types of security, is to not rely on permission slips or identity credentials. Rather, it is to PHYSICALLY inspect. Think of this a "capability," in OS/KeyKOS/E language terms. Instead of some security or identity credential, a direct determination that an object (passenger) can only have certain kinds of access and property combinations ("no bombs allowed with passenger"). The way to ensure that an object or agent does not go outside certain bounds (e.g., to erase or overwrite files) is not to trust some issuer of a credential from afar but to require specific allocation of access rights in the object or actor itself. (This is not meant to be the most concise or elegant phrasing of what capabilities are. Cf. the usual sources, includinging Hardy, Tenenbaum, Miller, etc.) Now if El Al or another airline wishes to require identity credentials issued by California or Israel or whatever, this is their choice (in a free market, that is). As I have written about in the past, some airlines already use credentialling systems very similar to a "web-of-trust" or "introducers" model. Private transport companies, for example. Much the way companies hire people they know, or get to know. "Vouching for" and all that stuff. There is no one single security model. Security is part of an ecology of actors, with methods, capabilities, and propagation of belief/trust issues. The problem I have with the current regime of soldiers with M-16s demanding identity credentials is the simple-minded nature of it, losing the nuances of market alternatives, and accelerating trends toward a identity-centric state. Nomen Nescio and others should read Chaum's "Credentials without identity" papers. A true name is just another credential, not necessarily more important than any of several other credentials. People should think deeply about this issue. --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787 From piolenc at mozcom.com Wed Nov 7 19:13:56 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 11:13:56 +0800 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us References: <4c4eed4b242253b2e03be1305750919f@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3BE9F874.40C0D86A@mozcom.com> I think the point was that those in whom these data were confided had promised to protect them from disclosure. What happens to the data ONCE COMPROMISED is another question. More below Nomen Nescio wrote: > > Tim May: > > These 50 kids will find their innermost thoughts and crimes "in their > > permanent records." When they apply for jobs in 15 years, when they seek > > political office, when they try to get security clearances. > > > > eBlack, the new anonymous bidding service, has an offer for e2400 for a > > complete set of these files. > > And yet we expect airport screeners to ignore past acts of terrorism > by a wild-eyed fanatic boarding a plan, I don't recall anybody being required to do that. Quite a stretch, unless you can cite an example. Marc de Piolenc From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 8 11:42:21 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:42:21 -0800 Subject: Stun Guns a Firearm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BEA6F9D.16716.8D1783@localhost> -- On 6 Nov 2001, at 15:20, measl at mfn.org wrote: > "Taser" is the stun gun to which I was referrring as unsaleable (is that a > word?) to mere civilians. The web page http://www.airtaser.com/ seems to claim it is legal in California. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 529sRmfZ4y6i8fWTL69Px67yTjPWEtrN6r/Kr1qM 4egqrA040PHa64nGnp76N7x0DUI5wYJmg//psgCUz From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 8 11:42:22 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:42:22 -0800 Subject: Business 'rights' and free markets In-Reply-To: References: <00bc01c166d9$a76c6600$5300a8c0@marcel> Message-ID: <3BEA6F9E.20843.8D17BF@localhost> -- On 7 Nov 2001, at 17:21, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Marcel Popescu wrote: > > > You're still incredibly deluded. Even Hayek (bad as he is) would have > > supported someone's decision NOT to sell to someone else, your rethoric > > notwithstanding. BTW, do you have anything else besides "Tim is wrong"? (And > > I'm no fan of Tim.) > > No, Hayek wouldn't have. Otherwise he wouldn't have been an apponent of > regulated economies (in particular both socialist and fascist). Why was he > against regulated economies? Because they don't offer the same > opportunities to ALL the members of the market (buyer > and seller alike). > > If Hayek were alive today and you asked him, > > "Do you support a business in a free market refusing to sell to Jews?" > > His answer would have been decidedly in the negative, You are both deranged and untruthfull. You make statements without caring or knowing whether they are true or false. His answer would, of course, have been that without freedom of asscociation, we will eventually wind up as serfs. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG tTENFDL8xKddAqMPfoxf52sFTiI456i81yN0QF2P 4f3Jr3toXUmULlgIBfzwDPtxn70dkFD2X5lwS1o9h From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 8 11:54:29 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:54:29 -0800 Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. Message-ID: <3BEA7275.17031.98314B@localhost> -- The evidence is now overwhelming that the anthrax attacks are connected to the 9/11 attack, and the current events in Afghanistan. However the Fibbies are still determinedly pushing the position that these attacks come from internal right wing terrorists. If the anthrax attack is connected to the 9/11 attack, then the fibbies get to play errand boy for the CIA and military intelligence. If the anthrax attack is internal, then they are in charge and they get to spy on all us right wing extremist hate groups. Let us hope that when they finally admit the anthrax attack was middle eastern, Aimee gets sent back to pretending to be a thirteen year old girl in chat rooms. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG /usKb79bOIG673+tHTcQXQ7zxv3JYpQCju1NtcAy 4yL8hsExUPXifzSS5U4Mmbce1l0n4YNFgIVZSBTP9 From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Thu Nov 8 11:58:09 2001 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 11:58:09 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <8837126A-D470-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> References: <3BEA603E.8F7FA333@mozcom.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108110135.04110cf0@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 09:46 AM 11/8/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote: >The confusion "Nomen Nescio" shows in thinking that an is-a-person >government tracking system fixes the airline security problem is common >these days. It's the same confusion that causes many to think national >I.D. cards will fix current pressing problems. They won't. > >[...] >Nomen Nescio and others should read Chaum's "Credentials without identity" >papers. A true name is just another credential, not necessarily more >important than any of several other credentials. People should think >deeply about this issue. Indeed. It's popular to frame this as a "this or that" question - like we've got a choice between terrorism (or insecurity) and security without privacy, and it's time for some group of people to deliberate carefully about the right choice to make, or the right way to balance mutually exclusive options. There is no such choice - the is no other side to bargain with, who will accept our privacy or autonomy or liberty in exchange for guaranteed safety. We can't build any sort of reliable security infrastructure on top of our existing identity scheme. Our current scheme doesn't provide for one-to-one mappings between people and identities, it doesn't provide for reliable ways to validate a proposed match between a meat body and an identity, and it provides a multitude of informal and traditional ways to adopt additional or alternate identities in a perfectly legitimate and orderly way. There's simply no way to enforce or implement an "identity" system meant to track humans if all of the elements of the system are pure information, because people who want to defeat the system will report misleading or incomplete information. It's also wildly impractical to even think of issuing some sort of physical token to the *billions* of people on Earth - people cannot (and will not) preserve them against loss, theft, damage, and so forth - nor can they be trusted not to falsely report loss or theft, or to sign up for multiple identities. Tokens which become associated with negative histories will be "lost" immediately; and tokens associated with positive histories will be targets of fraud and theft. The only way to manage identity with the robustness required to provide the sort of trackability and accountability required for an application like that proposed is to use some sort of biometric identifier. Nazi Germany (and I don't bring them up just for shock value) understood that, and used tattooed numbers on the arms of Jews and other unfortunates to eliminate the possibility of identity fraud or theft. In light of the logistical and capital requirements which a high-tech biometric system would require - and since we're talking about international travel and international border crossing, a strong ID project must be worldwide, not just US-based - it's simply not possible to think that we'd be able to use some sort of sexy high-tech retinal scanners, fingerprint scanners, hand geometry scanners, and so forth, to form the biometric basis of identity in such a system. The infrastructure doesn't exist, and can't be developed and deployed in anywhere near the time scale which would be required to address our current security problems, and the initial and recurring costs would be astronomical. The only way we could implement a system like that, starting this year, would be with good old-fashioned human-readable or human-measurable factors which are unchangeable, or at least very difficult to change - and that means something like tattooing or branding every living human being, on a part of their body that's likely to be publically visible, so an unmarked person (or person with altered marks) would be immediately conspicuous. A human readable-mark like a tattooed number would allow border guards, immigration workers, employers, and others to verify a person's status and provide updates using analog technology like telephones, faxes, or slow dialup modems which are universally available and whose installation and maintenance are relatively well understood. So let's say we do tattoo a number on the inside of everyone's forearm - would that incredible infringement on privacy and freedom and autonomy guarantee us our safety? No, it would not - it would allow us to identify people who had done bad things in the past, and restrict their access to places or things which we anticipate might allow them to cause very great damage in the future - but it would do nothing at all to identify people who have not yet been caught doing anything wrong. It also would not stop otherwise disqualified people from seizing controlled resources by trickery or force, or from assembling destructive things out of otherwise unremarkable consumer goods (like the truck bomb which struck the Murrah federal building in OKC.) Tim McVeigh wasn't wanted or suspected of anything prior to the OKC bombing - identity-based security wouldn't have prevented him from renting the truck, nor buying the fertilizer and airplane fuel used to build his bomb. All of the alleged WTC hijackers passed through immigration and other checkpoints without being detected as dangerous - if the technology and techniques we're discussing wouldn't even have prevented known attacks in the past, how can we imagine they'll be effective in the future? It's a popular fantasy, this idea that people will faithfully report a "true name" which can be matched to a database of past actions which will reliably predict future behavior - but it's a failure in every way, from the notion of a true, unique name, to the idea that access to dossiers can be both widely available and reliable, to the idea that it's possible to know what someone will do tomorrow based on knowledge of his behavior in the past. I can understand why people want to believe that it's possible - much like people want to believe that Marx' vision of Communism is possible, even in the face of many failed attempts which created only misery and starvation and death - but I'm disappointed to see that people's wish that it were possible turns out to be stronger than their common sense which should tell them that it is not. When people talk about "ID checks", they're going down a slippery slope which leads to either ridiculously ineffective charades like our existing airport security - or to a deadly efficient system like forearm tattoos. Is there anyone who wants any part of either of those visions of the future? Can anyone articulate a feasible identity system, using technology available today in third-world countries, which would have prevented events like the WTC attack or the OKC bombing? How about anthrax in the mail? If so, do you really want to live in that world? If not, isn't it time we abandoned this "ID card" fairy tale, and start thinking about how to solve our current problems using the abilities and limitations of our current situation? -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 12:07:04 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 12:07:04 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111082004.MAA00521@toad.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From info at united4love.com Thu Nov 8 12:07:07 2001 From: info at united4love.com (United 4 Love) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 12:07:07 Subject: United 4 Love Call To Action. PLEASE READ. Send Letter to President Bush Message-ID: <200111082004.fA8K4BH13078@ak47.algebra.com> This is a call to action from: UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love. The mission of United 4 Love: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love, is to create a patriotic organization of Americans who want to take humanitarian action to end terrorism, hate and violence. OUR FIRST ACTION IS TO SEND THE GROUP LETTER BELOW TO PRESIDENT BUSH. To join the group letter, simply click http://www.united4love.com, and enter the United4Love.com web site. Then click, "Send Letter To President Bush" and your voice for freedom will be heard. Dear President Bush: I support your efforts to protect us. In these times of terror we must look beyond partisanship for unity. Americans have come together with a new kind of patriotism. We are more of a family than ever before. We are more united than ever. These terrorists can not destroy our joy as Americans. Despite the tragedies we will emerge a better country -- a better world leader. I want to stand and be counted as an American who believes this war will be won on three fronts: intelligence, military and humanitarian. Love, is the greatest humanitarian force. I believe love may be our best weapon to combat terror at home and abroad. The enemies of freedom, know how to gain strength with evil and hate. Their soldiers are unified in hate. They seek to divide and conquer the free world with hate. If we allow hate to fill our hearts, they will use our own swords against us. Our strategy must be enlightened. Americans are good, honest and courageous people. We care about humanity. We must show the world Americans have caring hearts. We can turn this tragedy into a victory for all humanity. Love and understanding must be a part of America's mission to cut evil forces off at the pass. I support humanitarian food drops as positive acts of love. We need more strategies that focus on reducing hate against Americans. Avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Focus on strategies that emphasize the American commitment to freedom, intelligence, justice, peace, security, joy, respect, and love of country, diversity and humanity. Let justice prevail. Protect civil rights. They are the foundation of freedom. Encourage peace. Let the hearts of Americans be healed with goodness, and avoid creating martyrs and more enemies of our great nation. UNITED 4 LOVE: Freedom, Diversity, Action, Love http://www.united4love.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contact Susan Friedricks (818) 563-4721 Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Thu Nov 8 14:52:59 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 12:52:59 -1000 Subject: more on Nancy Oden In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107224724.00d6bb30@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011108124031.02b4c320@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 08:51 AM 11/8/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >That's nonsense. Please explain the informational content of the word >"cunt" as you used it. Generic identifier of specific individuals who have distinguished themselves by performing specific behaviors, "as fucked up as a football bat" would be similar to the informational content of "cunt" as I used it, note that I used "prick" and "cunt" in reference to males (yourself and Choate) in similar contexts. >By the way, there is no validity in trying to hand >the "PC" sign on me for two reasons: a) I'm about as far as you can >get from being PC, That didn't stop you from decrying my lack of "socialization," then scant days later when you called Choate a "pompous ass" it struck me that you are not a bona fide pc-ist, you are just a hypocrite. >and b) your use PC accusation makes sense ONLY if >your use of the word "cunt" was meant as a general reference to women. I disagree - it wasn't a general reference to women, it was a general reference to a specific person who happened to be a woman, I suggested you call Choate a "dumb cunt" too. >You cannot have it both ways. I don't think I am having it both ways, but in any event I won't play this game with you any longer. Reese From juancarlos at memorykings.net Thu Nov 8 10:25:48 2001 From: juancarlos at memorykings.net (juancarlos at memorykings.net) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 13:25:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: King Interactive Distributors Message-ID: <200111081825.NAA25575@smtp2.fdn.com> Hello, Here is my new deal for today. I have 10 Sharp NoteVision PG-M15S. These retail for $3700 dollars each. I am selling them for half price.Please email me your contact info if serious. I still have a few Dell FlatScreen Lcd Monitors left. These 14.1 inch monitors also come with a 32 mb Agp Video Card which has a S-video out. The card is actually worth $130 dollars alone. This a great deal. I am selling these monitors cheap.There are some of these monitors on Ebay but the ones on Ebay are refurbs. These are brand new in the box.Please email me your name and number if you are serious about purchasing. I also have some 3com Cable Modems. These are worth over $150 dollars each. I am selling them for almose half the price. Please email me your contact info if interested. Mouses Logitech I-Feel Optical mouse (no ball) $13.50 each Logitech First Wheel Mouse,comes with scroll wheel ,Usb, and Ps/2 connector $5 each Memory 128 meg pc100/133 168 pin $9.75 each 256 meg pc100/133 168 pin $18.75 each 512 meg pc100/133 168 pin $31.75 each Software Bulk Email Software (allows you to email over 1 million addresses in less than 2 hours)$39.99 Dvd to Cd (allows you to copy any dvd to a cd that can be played in your dvd or cd rom)$29.99 Super Spy 2002 Platinum Version 5.1 (Awesome spy software,too much to list)$9.99 Animated Pro ( Has over 500 animated gifs)$4.99 Banned Cd ( Wholesale sources , IRS forgiveness programs,Hacker Guides, Free Cable tv info,Repair your credit,Discount software)$4.99 Software Platinum Edition (123 software titles such as label magic,Bartender Pro,Will Kit, Simple Bookeeper,Debt analyzer, etc,etc.)$4.99 GameTek ( 100 computer games)$4.99 PC Pro ( 106 different pc programs such as pop up killer,ram booster etc.)$4.99 Pc Tech (patches ,test programs,utilities and rescue programs)$4.99 Ebay Tutorial (Easy Html, Auction Tips, Pre-formatted ads,Ebay secrets, Sniping, web page tutor, etc...)$4.99 Screensaver Pro ( over 200 screensavers such as Carmen Electra, Anna Kournikov,Drew Barrymore,Snoopy,Shania Twain,WWF, Etc..) $4.99 Misc (great to sell on Ebay) Remote Control Extender $10 each Smartmedia Memory Compactflash memory From georgemw at speakeasy.net Thu Nov 8 13:30:16 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 13:30:16 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108110135.04110cf0@bivens.parrhesia.com> References: <8837126A-D470-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BEA88E8.7586.138FC9@localhost> On 8 Nov 2001, at 11:58, Greg Broiles wrote: > It's a popular fantasy, this idea that people will faithfully report a > "true name" which can be matched to a database of past actions which will > reliably predict future behavior - but it's a failure in every way, from > the notion of a true, unique name, to the idea that access to dossiers can > be both widely available and reliable, to the idea that it's possible to > know what someone will do tomorrow based on knowledge of his behavior in > the past. > Right. To be brutally specific, identification is generally useless for preventing suicide bombings, because suicide bombers tend not to be repeat offenders. George From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 14:22:39 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:22:39 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1F016760-D497-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Greg Broiles and Peter Trei both make excellent points. I kind of regret not spending an hour or so writing a more complete essay. But I wanted to get some of the ideas out, mainly to refute the wrong-headed ideas floating around from folks as diverse as John Ashcroft and Nomen Whatever. Fact is, we have gone down the "is-a-person" route, and the crypto literature is filled with some good discussions, mainly back in the mid- to late-80s. (See Crypto proceedings for papers by Micali, Fiat, Shamir, and others on "is-a-person" issues. Note especially the vexing problem of what happens when some states (Libya, the United States) issue false credentials. (Think of what is-a-person means for states which issue fake credentials, a la the Witness Security Program, agents of various kinds, etc. A t.v. show I like, one of the crop of several such shows (including UC: Undercover, Alias, and 24) is "The Agency." It shows an impressive faking department at work, generating flawless passports, flawless travel documents, excellent "legends," etc. There is no reason to believe that WTC attackers could not have similar state-issued credentials, nor is there reason to believe that private actors cannot generate similar credentials. This is well-known in the biometric security community, and was well-known several decades ago....remember the scene in "Thunderball" where the guy's eyeballs are taken out to gain access to nukes?) The security-by-credential vs. security-by-inspection (capability, direct verification) debate is something which should be getting much more attention. Alas, it is "too obscure" for politicians and legal types...it has taken them a couple of decades to begin to absorb the concept of digital signatures. But there is no excuse for all of the careless thought here on this list (and other lists) such as we have seen from some. A few comments: On Thursday, November 8, 2001, at 12:58 PM, Trei, Peter wrote: > > I've been thinking along these lines myself - Tim got to the post > first. Like I said, it needs a full-blown article. All I had the time and energy to do was to throw some basic points out. > There are two points I'd like to make. > > 1. The reasons which are publicly aired for installing the current > 'security' regime are (in my considered opinion) NOT the > actually reasons. > > US airlines insisting on IDs which match tickets has nothing to > do with airline security, and everything to do with extracting as > much cash as possible from the public. > ... > Due to the vast cost differential (up to 10:1) between the cost > of a ticket to fly tomorrow, vs the cost of a 'two week advance, > The airlines hated this. The 'you must have a government id > which matches the name on the ticket' rule put an end to > the fungibility of airline tickets, which boosted their bottom > line. Indeed, they leapt on "mandatory ID" with great enthusiasm. Without it being mandatory, without this market distortion, then of course some airlines might have (and did) required government identity credentials and some airlines might not have. Indeed, many did not. There's no evidence that airline security was any lower in those days. In fact, the 911 attack happened _after_ the ID regimen, and Atta and others all had government-granted IDs. Q.E.D. Anyway, when the government mandated ID, thus distorting the market, the airlines no longer had to "compete" on the basis of their policies. The result is as Peter said: increased overall costs to business (with increased profits, for a while) to the airlines. (Longterm, it may be that corporations are travelling less. Given a choice between buying a ticket between Chicago and St. Louis for $1000, the going no-notice travel rate, and having a pool of cheaper tickets to use, this may have something to do with a decline in business travel. It's got to be one of the contributing factors.) > > 2. The capability vs credential argument runs all through > security. For example: Signed ActiveX code is using the > credential model, while the Java sandbox uses the capability > model. > > Another: 'Trust us not to look at your email without a warrant' > is the credential model. 'Encrypt your email so they cant look > at it' is the capability model. A good insight. I hadn't been thinking of encryption in terms of the capability model, but it may fit the model. I'll have to think about this some more. I tend to think of encryption as being "objects carrying their own protection." Though giving another actor a key is thus like giving them a capability to access the object, so I suspect your model is correct. > > Techies tend to prefer the capability model over the credential > model - it not only works, but can be seen to work, and does > not rely on trust. Institutions prefer that people use the > credential model, since that allows them to change the rules > at the drop of a hat. Yes, local behavior. Objects, contracts, local enforcement, distributed control, redundancy, non-hierarchical, information-hiding. Many of us believe this is a reason so many software people are libertarians. > > You can imagine applying the two models to airline passengers, > both of which would act to reduce the frequency of security > problems: > > 1. Capability model: You don't need to have ID at all, you can > pay cash on the plane (as I used to do on People Express) > but you'll get searched up the wazoo, and everything down to > a too-sharp pencil confiscated. This works because security is dependent on the dangers actually _carried_ by the passenger. (This does not apply as well to, say, Presidential security, because an actor (an agent, not a Reagan) may carry deadly capabilities in--to use the hackneyed expression--his bare hands.) > 2. Credential model: You can take your Glock on board, > provided it's loaded with frangible bullets. However you'll > have to have biometricaly enabled ID from the NRA certifying > that you've taken the 'Guns on Planes' course, a signed > affadavit from a psychiatrist saying you're sane and not > overly excitable, and a note from Mom saying you can. > > Both are better from a security point of view than having > unidentified armed people on board. And the fallacy people like Nomen Nescio have been making is to assume that "not requiring ID" means there are no other ways to get security. In fact, of the two options above, I'd rather travel under #1. Given how easily credentials may be faked, given the fact that credentials don't imply trustworthiness, given a lot of other factors, the presence of a credential is not very convincing. As I mentioned in my post, there are private travel companies (like FlexJet) which carry VIPs and execs and people they have come to trust. "Know your passenger" works...always has. Not perfectly, but better than most alternatives. Note for Nomen: This is NOT a call for the FAA to adopt some bureaucratic "know your passenger" policy, akin to "know your customer" rules for banks. ("Know your customer" rules for banks are also bogus, but this is another issue. A good toic to think about.) Regrettably, these interesting debates are completely orthogonal to the banal debates actually going on in America. --Tim May "Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events following 9/11/2001 From ryan at havenco.com Thu Nov 8 06:42:40 2001 From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:42:40 +0000 Subject: Presidental Commission recommends NSA, NIMA, NRO -> CIA Message-ID: <20011108144240.A5952@atreides.havenco.com> [http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/08/inv.intelligence.restructuring.ap/index.html] > WASHINGTON (AP) -- A presidential commission plans to recommend that > three massive Pentagon intelligence agencies be shifted to the CIA -- > a move that represents the largest shake-up in the intelligence > community in decades, The Washington Post reported Thursday. > The agencies that would be transferred are the National Reconnaissance > Office, which develops intelligence satellite systems, the National > Security Agency, which is in charge of electronic intercepts, and the > National Imagery and Mapping Agency, the newspaper said. > Each of those agencies would be under the control of the CIA director, > under the plan. > The proposal is aimed at reducing rivalries and consolidating > programs. It will be delivered to President Bush this month. I don't know about anyone else, but I have a far higher degree of trust for the DoD and subsidiary agencies acting responsibily and to protect the interests of US citizens in the US than the CIA. Certainly NSA and NRO have massive amounts of power, but putting that power in the hands of the CIA scares me a lot more. Moving things to the FBI would scare me more, of course. Mmm, FBI in direct control of USD 20b/year of high-tech equipment, NSA's cryptanalytic capabilities... I wonder what the odds are for this passing? -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE] ryan at havenco.com CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd. +44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F From kmself at ix.netcom.com Thu Nov 8 15:17:23 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:17:23 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 03:58:04PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20011108151723.I11233@navel.introspect> on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 03:58:04PM -0500, Trei, Peter (ptrei at rsasecurity.com) wrote: > > Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] wrote > > > > The confusion "Nomen Nescio" shows in thinking that an is-a-person > > government tracking system fixes the airline security problem is common > > these days. It's the same confusion that causes many to think national > > I.D. cards will fix current pressing problems. They won't. > > > > This is the same "security ticket" problem that shows up in computer > > security with malicious actors obtaining passwords or other access > > permissions. <...> > I've been thinking along these lines myself - Tim got to the post > first. > > There are two points I'd like to make. > > 1. The reasons which are publicly aired for installing the current > 'security' regime are (in my considered opinion) NOT the > actually reasons. > > US airlines insisting on IDs which match tickets has nothing to > do with airline security, and everything to do with extracting as > much cash as possible from the public. > > Before the Pan Am 800 accident, when people were freeer, there > was a secondary market in airline tickets which the original > purchasers could not, for one reason or another, use. If you > bought a non-refundable return ticket, and then could not > use it, you could sell it to someone who did want to travel > on those dates to that location. The price varied, but was > less than the cost to the repurchaser of buying a ticket from > the airline. <...> > It's got nothing to do with security. ...and, as previously reported here, an age-old practice: It's an older practice than you'd think. I just ran across the following while looking at some IBM history, regarding the "Hollerith Card": http://www4.wittenberg.edu/academics/mathcomp/bjsdir/history0.shtml Hollerith claimed he got [the punched data card] idea from "punch photograph cards" used by rail road officials. Used to prevent the theft of railroad tickets from passengers, conductors would "record" the physical characteristics of the ticket owner (e.g. eye color, hair color) by punching specially marked areas on the edge of the card. Hollerith used holes punched through the card, not on the edge of the card. Maybe someone should propose a "three strikes" law for suicide terror attacks. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 8 12:18:45 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:18:45 -0500 Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. Message-ID: > jamesd at echeque.com[SMTP:jamesd at echeque.com] wrote: > > -- > The evidence is now overwhelming that the anthrax attacks are > connected to the 9/11 attack, and the current events in > Afghanistan. However the Fibbies are still determinedly > pushing the position that these attacks come from internal > right wing terrorists. > > If the anthrax attack is connected to the 9/11 attack, then > the fibbies get to play errand boy for the CIA and military > intelligence. If the anthrax attack is internal, then they > are in charge and they get to spy on all us right wing > extremist hate groups. [...] What's this 'us' bit? Jim, I don't know what 'right wing extremist hate groups' you may belong to, but don't confuse such groups with the subscribers to this open mailing list, especially to third parties. This is not a 'group', and includes people from every part of the political spectrum. About the only thing that can be said to be in common among subscribers is that they think that crypto is in some way important. Peter Trei From nobody at dizum.com Thu Nov 8 06:40:10 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:40:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: Chemical defense Message-ID: Anonymous asked: > Has anyone actually tried DMSO and an over the counter potent hallucinogen, say > something on the order of Salvinorum? > > This could, if it works, make a workable defensive weapons system for joe blow, > and there wouldnt be shit that the local pigs could do about it. Except make it all that more likely that Salvinorum would be scheduled. A much better choice anyway for defensive (or offensive, for that matter) would be nicotine. Easy to get, one drop of pure nicotine on someones skin would be deadly. A dilute dose would knock them out -- the dog catchers used nicotine in dart guns to knock out dogs. Problem was, a bit too much and the dog died, not enough and it just got woozy. So with a squirt gun full of DMSO and nicotine, you just squirt the perp again, if the first wasn't enough. The medical examiner would probably decide it was a heart attack. From mattd at useoz.com Wed Nov 7 20:48:07 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 15:48:07 +1100 Subject: : So, do we bomb south america??? Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011108154046.00a0ad70@pop.useoz.com> "http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/11/07/inv.terror.south/index.html ... Sources tell CNN they believe the tri-border area is being used as a haven and source of funding for terrorists linked to Iran's Party of God, and to organizations that work closely with Osama bin Laden. " Impeccable hearsay has a mobile(by horse drawn cart)SCUD nuclear(gracias chechen mafia)lined up on AIMEE FARRS ASS,from the general chiapas area.Dont send alan Darthowitz around,thats all I know.I think arbusto needs a holiday,dont you?I mean have you seen him recently?His dad looks younger. From nobody at dizum.com Thu Nov 8 06:50:22 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:50:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: your mail Message-ID: measl said: ================================================================== On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Anonymous User wrote: > Has anyone actually tried DMSO and an over the counter potent > hallucinogen, say something on the order of Salvinorum? I assume you mean Salvia Divinorum? > This could, if it works, make a workable defensive weapons system for > joe blow, and there wouldnt be shit that the local pigs could do about > it. I've actually given this one some prior thought, and what worried me was that the delivery system (some type of water gun) would not likely be reliable enough to not get the crap all over the user as well as the target. And to tell you the truth, in the concentrations you would want to use as a weapon, you better be goddamn *certain* you don't get any of it on you while you're busy spraying the bad guys... ==================================================================== Yes, that's the problem isn't it. A common squirt gun wouldn't work, especially since DMSO is the universal solvent. A high-tec squirt gun could be built, pressurized by CO2 perhaps. Or paintball guns could be adapted with thin glass balls. From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Nov 8 15:54:57 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:54:57 -0800 Subject: POORLY SOCIALIZED VS POLITICALLY INCORRECT Message-ID: C'punks, For those of you, like Reese, who were unsure or mistaken as to the meaning of "socialized" when I wrote that Reese was "poorly socialized," I refer you to definition #2 of "socialize" from dictionary.com: so7cial7ize (s sh -l z) v. so7cial7ized, so7cial7iz7ing, so7cial7iz7es v. tr. 1. To place under government or group ownership or control. 2. To make fit for companionship with others; make sociable. 3. To convert or adapt to the needs of society. Please compare that to either definition of "politically correct," also from dictionary.com: politically correct adj. Abbr. PC 1. Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation. 2. Being or perceived as being overconcerned with such change, often to the exclusion of other matters. So for future reference, if I should use the term "socialized" in reference to a person, I mean definition #2. If I use it in reference to a practice, organization, market segment, etc. I mean definition #1 or #3. Clear enough? S a n d y From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 8 12:58:04 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 15:58:04 -0500 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection Message-ID: > Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] wrote > > The confusion "Nomen Nescio" shows in thinking that an is-a-person > government tracking system fixes the airline security problem is common > these days. It's the same confusion that causes many to think national > I.D. cards will fix current pressing problems. They won't. > > This is the same "security ticket" problem that shows up in computer > security with malicious actors obtaining passwords or other access > permissions. > > The time-honored alternative for airline security, and many other types > of security, is to not rely on permission slips or identity credentials. > Rather, it is to PHYSICALLY inspect. > > Think of this a "capability," in OS/KeyKOS/E language terms. Instead of > some security or identity credential, a direct determination that an > object (passenger) can only have certain kinds of access and property > combinations ("no bombs allowed with passenger"). The way to ensure that > an object or agent does not go outside certain bounds (e.g., to erase or > overwrite files) is not to trust some issuer of a credential from afar > but to require specific allocation of access rights in the object or > actor itself. (This is not meant to be the most concise or elegant > phrasing of what capabilities are. Cf. the usual sources, includinging > Hardy, Tenenbaum, Miller, etc.) > [good stuff deleted] I've been thinking along these lines myself - Tim got to the post first. There are two points I'd like to make. 1. The reasons which are publicly aired for installing the current 'security' regime are (in my considered opinion) NOT the actually reasons. US airlines insisting on IDs which match tickets has nothing to do with airline security, and everything to do with extracting as much cash as possible from the public. Before the Pan Am 800 accident, when people were freeer, there was a secondary market in airline tickets which the original purchasers could not, for one reason or another, use. If you bought a non-refundable return ticket, and then could not use it, you could sell it to someone who did want to travel on those dates to that location. The price varied, but was less than the cost to the repurchaser of buying a ticket from the airline. Due to the vast cost differential (up to 10:1) between the cost of a ticket to fly tomorrow, vs the cost of a 'two week advance, stay Saturday night' Supersaver, it was actually economic for large corporations to buy a steady supply of Supersavers, and hand them out in pairs to execs who had to make quick trips - it was cheaper to eat the cost of the unused whole or half tickets than to buy them only when they were needed. The airlines hated this. The 'you must have a government id which matches the name on the ticket' rule put an end to the fungibility of airline tickets, which boosted their bottom line. It's got nothing to do with security. ----------- 2. The capability vs credential argument runs all through security. For example: Signed ActiveX code is using the credential model, while the Java sandbox uses the capability model. Another: 'Trust us not to look at your email without a warrant' is the credential model. 'Encrypt your email so they cant look at it' is the capability model. Techies tend to prefer the capability model over the credential model - it not only works, but can be seen to work, and does not rely on trust. Institutions prefer that people use the credential model, since that allows them to change the rules at the drop of a hat. You can imagine applying the two models to airline passengers, both of which would act to reduce the frequency of security problems: 1. Capability model: You don't need to have ID at all, you can pay cash on the plane (as I used to do on People Express) but you'll get searched up the wazoo, and everything down to a too-sharp pencil confiscated. 2. Credential model: You can take your Glock on board, provided it's loaded with frangible bullets. However you'll have to have biometricaly enabled ID from the NRA certifying that you've taken the 'Guns on Planes' course, a signed affadavit from a psychiatrist saying you're sane and not overly excitable, and a note from Mom saying you can. Both are better from a security point of view than having unidentified armed people on board. Always remember: The *stated* reason an institution puts a restrictive policy is put in place do not necessarily have anything to do with the *actual* reason the institution wants to put it in place. Peter Trei From cypherpunks at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 07:13:12 2001 From: cypherpunks at ssz.com (cypherpunks at ssz.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 16:13:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: wireless modems again Message-ID: <20011108151312.53528528E7@smtp.cronos.org> The actual modems are on MDT's that are using cell frquencys to connect. They hop from cell to cell as they travel. but in a limited area From RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com Thu Nov 8 16:34:09 2001 From: RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com (SIGNATURES) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 16:34:09 Subject: ADV: ATTN: Church Athletic Director Message-ID: <200111082231.RAA10891@waste.minder.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com Thu Nov 8 17:27:01 2001 From: RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com (SIGNATURES) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:27:01 Subject: ADV: ATTN: Church Athletic Director Message-ID: <200111082324.PAA05895@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com Thu Nov 8 17:27:01 2001 From: RedWhiteBlueHoops at hotmail.com (SIGNATURES) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:27:01 Subject: ADV: ATTN: Church Athletic Director Message-ID: <200111082220.OAA06475@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 8 17:54:49 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:54:49 -0800 Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BEAC6E9.32485.1E21872@localhost> -- James A. Donald: > > If the anthrax attack is connected to the 9/11 attack, > > then the fibbies get to play errand boy for the CIA and > > military intelligence. If the anthrax attack is > > internal, then they are in charge and they get to spy on > > all us right wing extremist hate groups. On 8 Nov 2001, at 15:18, Trei, Peter wrote: > What's this 'us' bit? Jim, I don't know what 'right wing > extremist hate groups' you may belong to, but don't confuse > such groups with the subscribers to this open mailing list, > especially to third parties. For those who are seriously slow on the uptake, I will explain in words of one syllable: Should the FBI RICO members of this mailing list, the list will be reported in the press as a right wing extremist hate group. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG T3YLPjqqTU5N/sGmmkd4D5i8t6v6D3lSSKZR/nwu 4DYjwzhJi+X0xxCtjXeHqxREeq0OStsCDPG4mooMj From patty_822 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 15:17:40 2001 From: patty_822 at yahoo.com (Patty) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 18:17:40 -0500 Subject: Your Classified Ad Message-ID: <2262116-220011148231740770@yahoo.com> If you are like me, you probably are looking for a business that is simple and has no risk. My husband and I have tried many advertising systems and on-line businesses and had little success until we found an amazing catalog business. It was very easy for us to get started because the cost was $29 and we had 120 days risk-free 100% money back guaranteed refund if we didn't make any money within the first month or two. What we got for that small investment was hundreds of dollars of free Internet marketing training! When I found out that some of the biggest Internet players were also doing this business like crazy, we knew we had finally found the right business. These are the same guys that build web sites for some of the top Fortune 500 companies and they truly know how to Market online as well as make money with the Internet. Because we knew that 99% of North Americans order from catalogs, this business really interested us. The company's reorder rates are consistently documented at 95% or better every year for over 16 years! We knew that the business we build today would keep paying us over and over again... Take a couple of minutes and look at our site http://getresidualincomewith.freeleads4life.com and see if this is the system you've been looking for. Just copy and paste into your url. If you are failing in the other programs you are currently doing, you will quickly learn the real secrets to online success with a tremendous training system free! I look forward to hearing from you and having you on our TEAM! This email is sent in compliance with strict anti-abuse and NO SPAM regulations. Your address was collected as a result of posting to a link, a classified ad to my FFA Page, you have sent me an E-mail recently, or you are on a list that I have purchased. You may remove your E-mail address at no cost to you whatsoever by simply click on Reply button with "Remove" in the subject line. From piolenc at mozcom.com Thu Nov 8 02:36:46 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 18:36:46 +0800 Subject: All your mentally ill children are belong to us References: Message-ID: <3BEA603E.8F7FA333@mozcom.com> Nomen Nescio wrote: > He suggests having no ID or other history information available to > help screeners make their decision, nothing but whatever clues can be > gleaned in the brief moments available. Anybody want to fly *those* > friendly skies? I already have...years ago. And I would gladly take whatever accrued risk there was to have those civilized times return. Marc de Piolenc From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 19:11:23 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 19:11:23 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <3BEB48FB.D3A19B34@mozcom.com> Message-ID: <7495D402-D4BF-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> On Thursday, November 8, 2001, at 07:09 PM, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Tim May wrote: > >> Nomen Nescio and others should read Chaum's "Credentials without >> identity" papers. A true name is just another credential, not >> necessarily more important than any of several other credentials. >> People >> should think deeply about this issue. > > I would like to read these papers. Are they available on-line? > If they are, search engines will very likely have indexed them. I would do the search for you, but your retainer has expired. Some of the primary papers are: David Chaum. Showing credentials without identification: Signatures transferred between unconditionally unlinkable pseudonyms. In Advances in Cryptology --- Eurocrypt '85, pages 241--244, New York, 1985. Springer-Verlag. Chaum, D. and J.H. Evertse, Showing credentials without identification: signatures transferred between unconditionally unlinkable pseudonyms, Proceedings of Crypto '86, Springer-Verlag, 1987. There is much discussion on the Cypherpunks list, and even reference in the Cyphernomicon. --Tim May "The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton From admin at americancenter.com Thu Nov 8 20:20:24 2001 From: admin at americancenter.com (ALC) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 20:20:24 PST Subject: American Language Center- 156-0000 Pozdravlyaem! Message-ID: <1492$999219783670864$10$0@exploder1.em5000.com> Поздравляем с Революцией Центр Американского Английского ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Call Now! Звоните Cейчас. Visit Today! Приходите Сегодня. 156-00-00, 159-57-34, 274-22-15 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Английский разговорный с преподавателями из США МЫШЛЕНИЕ, ПРОИЗНОШЕНИЕ, СТИЛЬ РЕЧИ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Эксклюзивная авторская методика Все стадии обучения : от нуля до высшего ПРИЕМЛЕМЫЕ ЦЕНЫ плюс ВЫСШЕЕ КАЧЕСТВО LOWEST CHARGES plus HIGHEST GRATIFICATION ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Moscow, Russia ------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, please click or copy and paste the following address into your browser: http://em5000.com/unsub.php?client=twisted_solo&listname=alc&email=cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4340 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Thu Nov 8 18:45:47 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 21:45:47 -0500 Subject: Slashdot: IBM Crypto up for grabs Message-ID: <20011108214546.A5458@ils.unc.edu> /. coverage is at http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/11/09/008229 Evidently, this was covered on BBC Newsnight. >From the article at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/descrack/ Extracting a 3DES key from an IBM 4758 Summary The IBM 4758 is an extremely secure crytographic co-processor. It is used by banking systems and in other security conscious applications to hold keying material. It is designed to make it impossible to extract this keying material unless you have the correct permissions and can involve others in a conspiracy. We are able, by a mixture of sleight-of-hand and raw processing power, to persuade an IBM 4758 running IBM's ATM (cash machine) support software called the "Common Cryptographic Architecture" (CCA) to export any and all its DES and 3DES keys to us. All we need is: * about 20 minutes uninterrupted access to the device * one person's ability to use the Combine_Key_Parts permission * a standard off-the-shelf $995 FPGA evaluation board from Altera * about two days of "cracking" time The attack can only be performed by an insider with physical access to the cryptographic co-processor, but they can act alone. The FPGA evaluation board is used as a "brute force key cracking" machine. Programming this is a reasonably straightforward task that does not require specialist hardware design knowledge. Since the board is pre-built and comes with all the necessary connectors and tools, it is entirely suitable for amateur use. Besides being the first documented attack on the IBM 4758 to be run "in anger", we believe that this is only the second DES cracking machine in the open community that has actually been built and then used to find an unknown key! Until IBM fix the CCA software to prevent our attack, banks are vulnerable to a dishonest branch manager whose teenager has $995 and a few hours to spend in duplicating our work. Contents From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 21:49:41 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 21:49:41 -0800 Subject: America the Damned Message-ID: <921D99E6-D4D5-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> The Sedition Laws are back. Be afraid, be _very_ afraid. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011108/us/attacks_sedition_1.html Some excerpts: Thursday November 8 2:28 PM ET Sedition Law Used to Hold Suspects By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - Prosecutors seeking to hold people they suspect were in the early stages of terrorist plots may turn anew to a very old weapon - the Civil War-era law on sedition. Last week, prosecutors cited the rarely invoked law in the case of a student being detained in New York, and hinted they might make fuller use of it in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks. ... Law enforcement officials, speaking only on condition of anonymity, said prosecutors are examining other cases in which they might use the sedition law against people who did not carry out attacks but had been in various stages of planning. ... The government used the sedition law after World War I to convict anarchists. In the 1950s, the Supreme Court upheld convictions of communists on sedition charges for teaching doctrines that were held to be subversive. ``These weren't people blowing things up; they were basically basement seminars where people would read Marx,'' said constitutional law professor Richard Primus of the University of Michigan. ... Chicago attorney Jeremy Margolis successfully prosecuted four Puerto Rican nationalists for seditious conspiracy in the 1980s for planning to bomb a Marine training center and an Army Reserve facility. The object of the conspiracy was to change the policies of the U.S. government ``as opposed to doing a particular criminal act - blow that up, take that down, shoot that person,'' Margolis recalled. --end excerpt-- TCM comments: -- How is what we on this list, in our physical meetings for the past 9 years, our other activities, any different from the cases just cited, of "they were basically basement seminars where people would read Marx,'' (*) and of being "anarchists" and of "The object of the conspiracy was to change the policies of the U.S. government"? (* except we read folks nearly the polar opposite of Marx, but just as dangerous to the American Way) -- the witch hunts of the 50s are coming back with a vengeance, faster than anyone predicted...we've got Alan Dershowitz suggesting that the rack be brought back ("with proper torture warrants"), we've got airline passengers surrounded by soldiers and questioned about the novel found in their luggage, we've got a thousand or so persons detained without due process/habeas corpus, and we've got got drastic new police state measures in the offensively-named "USA PATRIOT Act." -- I wonder who'll star in the new CBS production of "I Led Three Lives"? --Tim May "You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael Shirley From Missynursern at aol.com Thu Nov 8 19:20:01 2001 From: Missynursern at aol.com (Missynursern at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:20:01 EST Subject: Interested in working at home. Message-ID: <171.3a0c267.291ca561@aol.com> Hello, I am interested in working from home. Please send me information. Missynursern at aol.com MDixon RN From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 8 22:28:57 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:28:57 -0800 Subject: Declan should be ashamed Message-ID: <0DCEACEB-D4DB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Cypherpunks, I just had an amusing online experience. I checked in on Declan's "Wartime Liberty" news site, which I hadn't visited in for a month or so. It is: http://www.wartimeliberty.com Well, a banner ad began blinking in bright red at about 30 Hz, saying "If this banner ad is blinking, you have won a free prize!" Normally I can ignore these pieces of shit, but this same ad blinked in all of the subsections (encryption, policy, opinion, etc.) I checked. Very annoying. I never click on banner ads, but I decided to do an experiment, just to see what sort of company Declan has established this business relationship (of whatever kind) with. I'll spare you the details. Basically, I kept answering questions about my address and age and suchlike (I fibbed slightly, enough to look plausible but not enough to provide tips for the spam and passphrase harvesting I expect Declan's ad banner company is actually doing). After about four or five such screens, it finally told me to select the kinds of free prizes I wanted. All were of the usual bogus kind, including packets of advertising, discounts on subscriptions to magazines, etc. I clicked on none of them. Then came "da bomb": it asked me for the e-mail names of several other "friends." I left this blank and moved on. It wouldn't accept this, and kept returning to the nag screen demanding e-mail addresses. I left at this point. I guess I won't get my "free prize"! Sob. But the obnoxious blinking red banner ad is still telling me I've won a free prize. So I couldn't even stay on Declan's site, so obnoxious was the blinking banner. Declan, you really should be ashamed of yourself for this. Even if you don't personally choose all of the damned banner ads cluttering up your site, at least have the decency to not let spam harvesters run on your system! (I suspect they already harvested my "interest" as soon as I progressed to the "click to claim your prize" screen near the end. I'll be looking for spam arriving with the fibbed details I provided. My thought is maybe to bounce every one of these messages to Declan. Naw...) --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From info at giganetstore.com Thu Nov 8 14:33:16 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:33:16 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Leil=F5es_ao_Pre=E7o_da_Banana!?= Message-ID: <0c42231332208b1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> De: info at giganetstore.com Enviado: quinta-feira, 8 de Novembro de 2001 19:13 Para: mbr at giganetstore.com Assunto: Leilões ao Preço da Banana! Os leilões ao preço da Banana no Gigaleilão.com.pt Não perca estas oportunidades... Diablo II- jogo para PC A sequela do maior jogo de culto aclamado por todos! Por apenas 900$! Fecho 13/11 15:00 Base de licitação 900$ Design It ! Design it! 3D (Win). Magnífico negócio para os amantes de 3D. Compre já por apenas 1.000$ ! Fecho 13/11 15:00 Base de licitação 1.000$ Jurassic Park - DVD A obra prima de imaginação, suspense e magia de Steven Spielberg em DVD. Grande compra por 900$! Fecho 13/11 15:00 Base de licitação 900$ Picture It! da Microsoft Crie fotografias fantásticas com o Microsoft Picture It 2000. Preço irresistível a 10.000$! Fecho 13/11 15:00 Base de licitação 10.000$ E muito mais... em www.gigaleilao.com.pt . O novo serviço de leilões da giganetstore.com inédito e inovador no mercado online português. Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list clique em Retirar Mail -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5423 bytes Desc: not available URL: From webmaster at ehuntingcentral.com Thu Nov 8 22:58:23 2001 From: webmaster at ehuntingcentral.com (eHuntingCentral) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:58:23 -0800 Subject: Check Out This Hunting Site!! Message-ID: <2b9c201c168eb$ec766570$141223d0@ehuntingcentral> It's finally here again and like all of us here at eHuntingCentral, we're sure everyone's making plans and getting ready for a successful hunting season! If you haven't had the opportunity to take advantage of the tools our hunting site offers, now would be a great time to check us out! What makes our site different from other hunting sites? eHuntingCentral is designed and written by hunters, for hunters for the sole purpose of providing hunting information and tools that were once so difficult for hunters like ourselves to locate. Through this site, hunters can now access the most up-to-date hunting information available on the web in one easy convenient location. Based on our own hunting experiences, we have gathered information and provided tools that we feel will be a valuable asset to hunters of all game! To help make this year's hunts a success, eHuntingCentral has enhanced and added several new features to benefit all hunters. These features include: Trophy Gallery - A fun feature that allows members to share their hunting photos with others on the site. Simply upload your digital pictures into the proper categories so everyone can enjoy them. My Journal - It's your own personal journal that allows you to record hunting dates, weather conditions, game, equipment and other information about each of your hunts. You can store landowner information as well as hunting locations with latitude and longitude coordinates. There are also links to provide aerial photos of your hunting locations. My Calendar - This feature is especially beneficial to guides to help you keep track of all your scheduled hunts. It's designed to schedule hunting trips online and to eliminate the need for paper calendars. We will keep 3 years of history for you to review and you can schedule as far in the future as you would like. *The last two features are strictly private and accessible only to you when you logon with your email address and password. Even better, it's accessible by you from any location that has Internet access. Take the opportunity now to list any items you have for sale in our Classified or Auction sections, advertise your hunting related web sites in our Links section and gain exposure for your business by sending us your (468 X 60) banner ad so that we can display it throughout our site. For all you Guides, remember to list your service in both the Links section and the Guides section and post any hunting pictures in our Trophy Gallery. The Guide Search now contains a link to view all your photos from your guide listing. As our policy has always been, membership to this site, including the updated and added features, is absolutely FREE! Take a look at some of the other features currently offered: * Customizable Home Page (Your Weather and Your Links) * Field Reports * Classifieds * Discussions/Forums * Links * Auctions * Hunt Swaps * Guide/Outfitter Search * Recipes * Tips Happy Hunting! eHuntingCentral http://www.ehuntingcentral.com ************************************************************* And as always, if you received this email and are not interested in the site, topics or receiving future emails. Please go to http://www.ehuntingcentral.com/remove.asp , enter your Email Address and click the Remove button. This will remove you from our mailing list. ************************************************************* -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4351 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sws202000 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 23:54:27 2001 From: sws202000 at yahoo.com (Shaun) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:54:27 Subject: Why do 95% of internet business fail & only 5% succeed Message-ID: <200111081353.FAA16931@toad.com> Dear Entrepreneur: Can you honestly say that you're earning the type of income you thought you would when you first began your networking career? Unfortunately, the history of networking says that there's a 95% chance you are not earning what you would like to earn. How many different opportunities have you been involved with? How many times have you thought, "This is the one"? If you are one of the 5% of networkers who is earning a good income, what about your team? How many of them are successful? Regretfully, you know the answer to that question as well as we do....VERY FEW! Does it bother you to know that as many as 95% of the people in your group won't even recover what they have paid to get involved? It DOES NOTT MAKE SENSE, DOES IT? How can so many people who have been successful in other walks of life, fail so miserably in networking? The Answer: Network marketing for the most part, is based on the theory of "Internal Consumption." That is, the VAST majority of the company's products are purchased and consumed by distributors, NOT real customers! Let me ask you: How many supermarkets, department stores, car dealerships, etc., do you think would survive if they depended PRIMARILY on purchases by their employees of the company's products to keep them in business? As the same rule applies in the real world of business ... It is the same with networking and home-based business. A 95% failure rate makes this clear. Even networking companies that are truely product and consumer driven find many of their distributors failing. Why? Because people simply DO NOT LIKE TO SELL! Unfortunately, for 90% or more of the distributors in any typical network marketing company, it DOESN'T MATTER how great their products are supposed to be, or how fantastic the comp plan is, or how strong the company and management team are... The VAST MAJORITY of distributors WILL STILL FAIL because people simply DO NOT LIKE TO SELL!! You nor I will EVER change that part of human nature for the masses. Is there an answer? Yes, there is, but you won't find it in any Network Marketing training manual. Unfortunately, most company owners and their top leaders already know that the vast majority won't be successful. Yet, we continue to see company after company spring up with more rhetoric, promises, etc. Why? Because the ONLY people who are guaranteed to earn any significant income if the company lasts, are the owners and their top people. Sorry, but the truth is the truth! Forget the rhetoric we're now hearing about selling online because, once again, in the year 2000, more than 90% of all online businesses DIDN'T MAKE A PROFIT! The sad part is, if we continue to do the same things over and over again that have only produced failure in the past, the result will always be the same: MORE FAILURE. While a quality product, good compensation, a strong management team, and a financially sound company are all important to the success of any company, none of these factors can replace the single most important feature that a networking company MUST HAVE ... The average person must have a chance of finding LONGTERM success. Does this mean that networking is bad? Not at all. What it does mean is that the way networking has been historically promoted for years with the emphasis on "internal product consumption" (where the distributors purchase the vast majority of products for personsal use) will continue to produce a 95% failure rate. We have a solution that works for anyone who is willing to work steadily, is consistent, and can read and follow a very simple system that was designed for beginners. This system has proven successful every time over the years for those who followed it. If you would like to experience results in your life, email us at < sean_stamm at yahoo.com > with "Information request" in the subject. Please include your name, country, and phone number so that we can send you the correct information. We will email you an introduction about our company and our entire system at no cost to you. We will not email you ridiculous promises, or UNPROVEN OR FAILED THEORIES...Just the facts! While no one can or should ever guarantee your success in any business, here's one thing we do promise you: The TRUTH and a system that will show you HOW TO DO THINGS STEP-BY-STEP! From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 22:25:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 00:25:55 -0600 Subject: CNN.com - Scientists invent transistor made of one molecule - November 8, 2001 Message-ID: <3BEB76F3.C3AEC9EF@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/11/08/tiny.transistors.ap/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 8 22:30:14 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 00:30:14 -0600 Subject: Sedition Law Used to Hold Suspects Message-ID: <3BEB77F6.EF7BCB63@ssz.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011108/us/attacks_sedition_1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From verba at rol.it Thu Nov 8 15:57:03 2001 From: verba at rol.it (verba at rol.it) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 00:57:03 +0100 Subject: Verba Volant del 09-11-01 Message-ID: <1005267424@web_ext.logos.it> Verba Volant del 09-11-01, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. Logos Translations - www.logostranslations.com _________________ Quotation of the day: Author - Luciano Somma English - a specialist is one who knows more and more about less and less, ultimately knowing everything� about nothing! Italian - uno specialista � uno che sa sempre di pi� su sempre di meno, fino a sapere tutto... di nulla! Spanish - especialista es el que sabe cada vez m�s sobre cada vez menos, hasta que llega a saberlo todo... de nada! French - un sp�cialiste est une personne qui en sait toujours plus sur de moins en moins de choses, jusqu'� en arriver par tout savoir...sur rien! Portuguese - um especialista � algu�m que sabe cada vez mais sobre cada vez menos, at� saber tudo... sobre nada! Brazilian Portuguese - um especialista � algu�m que sabe cada vez mais sobre cada vez menos, at� saber tudo... sobre nada! German - ein Spezialist ist jemand, der immer mehr �ber immer weniger Dinge wei�, bis er schlie�lich... nichts mehr wei�! Hungarian - a szakember az, aki egyre t�bbet tud egyre kevesebb dologr�l, m�g v�g�l m�r mindent tud ... a semmirol Finnish - spesialisti on henkil�, joka tiet�� aina enemm�n aina v�hemm�st�, tiet�en lopulta kaiken ... ei mist��n! Catalan - un especialista �s un que sap sempre m�s sobre menys, fins a saber tot ... de res! Croatian - specijalista je onaj tko zna sve vi�e o sve manjem do tocke da zna sve o nicemu Czech - odborn�k je ten, kdo v� st�le v�ce o st�le m�ne vecech, a� nakonec v� v�echno o nicem! Dutch - een specialist is iemand die meer en meer weet over minder en minder, tot hij alles weet over... niets Emiliano-Romagnolo - e' spezalest l'e on cal sa semper ad pi� dint'al semper ad min; da oltim, as radana a saver ma tott dint'a gint de tott Furlan - un spezalist al � un cal sa simpri di plui su simpri di mancul, fin a sav� dut... di nuje! Latin - peritissimus est quidam sapiens magis magisque de minimis ita ut omnia nullius rei sciat Latvian; Lettish - specialists ir tas, kur� zina vairak un vairak par mazak un mazak, galu gala zinot visu ... par neko! Occitan - un especialista es un que sai totjorn de mai sus totjorn de mens, fins a saber tot de ren! Polish - specjalista to ten, kt�ry wie coraz wiecej o coraz to mniej, az do dowiedzenia sie wszystkiego... o niczym Romanian - un specialist este cel ce stie tot mai mult despre tot mai putin, p�na a sti totul .... despre nimic! Slovak - �pecialista je ten, kto vie st�le viac o menej veciach, a� nakoniec vie v�etko o nicom Venetian - on specialista xe uno che sa senpre de pi� so senpre de manco, fin a savere tuto .... de gnente! Flemish - een specialist is iemand die meer en meer weet over minder en minder, tot hij alles weet over... niets Calabrese - nu specialista � unu ca sa sempri di chi� e sempri di menu,finu a sapiri tuttu... di nente! Reggiano - un special�sta l'� un che n'in s� s�imper 'na m�cia ins�ma a s�imper meno, fin a tant che al s� tott..ed gnint! Ferrarese - un specialista l'� un c'al s� sempar ad pi� riguard a sempar ad men, fin a saver tutt... ad gni�nt! Bolognese - un spezial�ssta l � �n ch�l in s� s�nper de pi� ed s�nper manc qu�, inf�n a savair inc�sa� d ign�nt! _________________ All languages, please click on this link http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.frasiproc.carica?code=440 _________________ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.rol.it/owa-k/press.rol_ml.verbavolant and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after "TO:" in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: unsubscribe_volant at rol.it always copying the EMAIL address written after "TO:" From nobody at dizum.com Thu Nov 8 16:10:08 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 01:10:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection Message-ID: There are so many misconceptions floating around here it's hard to know where to begin. But let's start with two points of agreement. First, airport screening is far from perfect. There is no way to detect all possible threats coming on the airplane. And given the technology and time available, it will always be possible to smuggle aboard knives, explosives and other dangerous devices more than sufficient to risk the lives of everyone on that airplane. Second, no ID based system is perfect, either. People can falsify their ID with varying degrees of expense and difficulty. Moving to biometrics can help but these can be spoofed as well. But to conclude from these points that we should just let everyone walk onto a plane with no more than the cursory inspection that has been used in the past is pure bullshit. Absence of perfection is no argument against a system. Someone once said that "all cryptography is economics." Well, all security is economics as well. Any argument which is based on the fact that loopholes and failures will exist is irrelevant. The point of security is to raise the cost of breaching it. That's all. Understanding and accepting this would raise the level of the dialog considerably. Given this fact, it makes no sense to intentionally blind screeners to relevant data when performing their security analysis. Those guards should have every scrap of information possible available to them. People who have a history of violence, who make threats, who are associates with known terrorists, all represent correspondingly greater risks. An efficient screening system will use this information to determine how carefully each passenger is examined. Resources are finite, and it is highly inefficient to apply exactly the same procedure to each individual. You'll have far more security for the same cost by allocating greater security resources to those individuals who pose the greatest risk based on the data available. They are the ones who need their bags hand-searched. They need the metal detector wand run over their entire bodies. They can empty their pockets and have their shoes removed and inspected. It is not practical to apply this level of scrutiny to every passenger. But by making use of public information, high risk individuals can be subjected to high levels of inspection. This is where the irony was pointed out, of cypherpunks calling for limits on the use of information! A group which prides itself on developing technologies that can keep damaging information alive is suddenly afraid, now that they may be the ones to suffer from their own past words. Tim May himself has called for the nuclear destruction of Washington, DC. He has expressed support for the actions of Tim McMay, sorry, McVeigh. He threatens death to judges, police officers, even reporters who misquote him. He has said that the local police have put him on their watch list as a potentially dangerous individual. Clearly, he would be a prime target for any selective screening effort. And this is entirely appropriate. Certainly many of us here would feel more comfortable riding on a plane with an unstable, violent individual if he had been searched thoroughly, preferably including body cavities. Some have claimed to object only because the government is involved in the search. That's a red herring in this case. Yes, the government is setting security policies, but they are only responding to public demand. Any fully private security system would see the same kinds of checks in order to get the flying public back into the air. No one wants to fly with someone who has a history of calling for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government at a time when planes are being turned into guided missiles. Then there is the absurd fantasy that if unregulated, some airlines would differentiate themselves by offering minimal screening in order to corner the lucrative market composed of all the Tim McVeighs of the world. Only a blind man would think that businesses work this way. In every industry there are a limited number of profitable market niches and companies fight for those. Fringe markets, like people who want to fly with unscreened terrorists, are not served. (Look at all the successful companies selling products to cypherpunks.) There would be no airlines seeking such a market. At a time when passenger levels have dropped precipitously the airlines will do everything they can to assure their passengers that they are safe. That means screening of exactly the type we are discussing. A few other irrelevant points have been made. Given that ID is not perfectly reliable, do we need to tattoo numbers on people's forearms? This is the fallacy of perfection. ID can be combined with a simple thumbprint for biometric identification (already widely used for cashing checks) and you will raise the cost of forgery considerably. Many of the hijackers would have been caught simply by cross-referencing their IDs against existing databases. That's what El Al does and they have an excellent safety record in the most terrorist-infested part of the world. What about Chaum credentials? Well, how would they help? Are you going to show a not-a-terrorist credential? No one is in a position to issue such a thing. And even if you had one, how would you prove it isn't stolen? If ID can be forged then so can any other sort of credential. The Chaum technology is nothing but a pipe dream anyway. It's never been used and never will be, because there is no incentive (see above re unserved markets). Then there is this whole "credential vs capability" debate. This is nothing but an ivory tower abstraction with very little relevance to the practical problems involved in screening real people before they get on an airplane. Here's an arab guy who looks shifty and nervous. They do a biometric face scan and run it through the customs database against known terrorists. Is that a credential? A capability? Neither, it's just good security sense and the use of all information resources available. When confronted with an unpleasant reality, cypherpunks retreat into their imaginary world of abstractions. That doesn't help when planes are falling from the skies. Try to stick with reality for a few minutes at least. Information which is available will be used. Screeners are free to use any and all information that is relevant in assessing risk. If cypherpunks would remove their blinders they would see that this is entirely in keeping with the ideas of Blacknet and information wanting to be free. What, is Blacknet going to refuse to sell to Argenbright? This is how far cypherpunks have come from their free market roots, that somehow they think that information can be kept under wraps just because it doesn't fit their ideology. It's amazing to see a supposedly pro-information group suddenly claiming that their own pasts should be off limits when faced with a life or death situation. Cypherpunks need to take a harder look at themselves and resolve this contradiction. From bounce at fantasy-mail.com Thu Nov 8 17:30:34 2001 From: bounce at fantasy-mail.com (Fantasy Mail) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 01:30:34 GMT Subject: We Haven't Heard From You Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3052 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kmself at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 9 02:07:05 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 02:07:05 -0800 Subject: WashPost: DoJ to monitor lawyer's calls Message-ID: <20011109020704.A26565@navel.introspect> Pointer from Dan Gillmor's SJMerc column. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64663-2001Nov8.html U.S. Will Monitor Calls to Lawyers Rule on Detainees Called 'Terrifying' By George Lardner Jr. Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, November 9, 2001; Page A01 The Justice Department has decided to listen in on the conversations of lawyers with clients in federal custody, including people who have been detained but not charged with any crime, whenever that is deemed necessary to prevent violence or terrorism. Attorney General John D. Ashcroft approved the eavesdropping rule on an emergency basis last week, without the usual waiting period for public comment. It went into effect immediately, permitting the government to monitor conversations and intercept mail between people in custody and their attorneys for up to a year at a time. The move, which the Justice Department said was necessary "in view of the immediacy of the dangers to the public," stunned defense lawyers and civil libertarians. They assailed it as an unconstitutional attack on the right to counsel and, in the words of American Civil Liberties Union official Laura W. Murphy, "a terrifying precedent." The monitoring of attorney-client conversations is the latest in a series of extraordinary law enforcement measures the government has taken in response to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. President Bush last week signed the USA Patriot Act, a bill that gives the government a freer hand to conduct searches, detain or deport suspects, eavesdrop on Internet communications, monitor financial transactions and obtain electronic records on individuals. The administration also has promised to crack down on immigration violations, Congress is considering legislation to tighten airport security, and Ashcroft announced yesterday that he is reorganizing the Justice Department and FBI to concentrate on terrorism. Until now, communications between inmates and their attorneys have been exempt from the usual monitoring of social phone calls and visits at the 100 federal prisons around the country. According to a summary published in the Federal Register Oct. 31, the monitoring will be conducted without a court order whenever the attorney general certifies "that reasonable suspicion exists to believe that an inmate may use communications with attorneys or their agents to facilitate acts of terrorism." The definition of "inmate" previously covered only people in custody of the federal Bureau of Prisons, but it was changed to cover anyone "held as witnesses, detainees or otherwise" by INS agents, U.S. marshals or other federal authorities. Since Sept. 11, the government has detained nearly 1,200 people, many on immigration violations. The Bush administration has declined to say how many have been released. Explaining the new rule, the Justice Department said authorities "may have substantial reason to believe that certain inmates who have been involved in terrorist activities will pass messages through their attorneys (or the attorney's legal assistant or an interpreter) to individuals on the outside for the purpose of continuing terrorist activities." The president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, Irwin Schwartz of Seattle, denounced the eavesdropping as "an abomination" and said it would be challenged in court at the first opportunity. "The Code of Professional Responsibility is quite clear: a lawyer must maintain confidentiality," Schwartz said. "If we can't speak with a client confidentially, we may not speak with him at all. And if we can't do that, the client is stripped of his Sixth Amendment right to have a lawyer." The Justice Department said it will set up "procedural safeguards" to protect the right to counsel. Inmates and their attorneys will be notified "of the government's listening activities," and the monitoring will be done by a special "taint team" that will not disclose what it hears to federal prosecutors or investigators without approval by a federal judge, officials said. Records of clearly privileged information, such as a discussion about a client's defense, will not be retained by the monitors, the department said. "Apart from disclosures necessary to thwart an imminent act of violence or terrorism, any disclosures to investigators or prosecutors must be approved by a federal judge," it added. The critics were not mollified. "Who's going to be on the taint team?" asked Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies, a nonprofit group in Washington. "The government says it's building a mosaic, processing thousands of bits and pieces of information that may seem innocuous at first glance. How is the 'taint team' going to know if something a person says to a lawyer is part of the mosaic or not without sharing it with others? This seems to be a useless safeguard. What if they think what they overhear is in code?" Martin said monitoring of witnesses and others who have not been convicted would be "particularly outrageous." Murphy, who is director of the ACLU's Washington national office, agreed, saying, "the idea that this could be happening to innocent people is really disturbing." A lawyer's effectiveness, she added, can be dramatically diminished if the government is listening in, making a client fearful of disclosing all that the attorney needs to know to mount a forceful defense. The attorney-client eavesdropping authority is an addition to the "special administrative measures" the government has imposed on certain inmates since the World Trade Center bombing in 1993 and the bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995. They include solitary confinement, interception of mail and restrictions on visitors and telephone calls. But until Ashcroft signed the new regulation, they were limited to 120-day periods. Now, all such steps can be ordered for a year at a time and renewed indefinitely at one-year intervals. Those under "special measure" regimes include Omar Abdul Rahman, the blind sheik convicted in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing; Abdul Hakim Murad and Wali Khan Amin Shah, convicted of conspiracy to blow up 12 civilian jumbo jets; Eyad Ismail and Ramzi Yousef, two others convicted in the WTC bombing; Wadih Hage, convicted of conspiring to kill Americans around the world; and Mohammed Saddiq Odeh and Mohamed Rashed Daoud Owhali, who were convicted in the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. At a trial last June, an Algerian witness said Rahman issued a "fatwa" or religious ruling from prison, telling followers to "fight Americans and hit their interests everywhere." Staff researcher Lynn Davis contributed to this report. ) 2001 The Washington Post Company -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From specialoffers at freesamples.com Fri Nov 9 03:45:51 2001 From: specialoffers at freesamples.com (specialoffers at freesamples.com) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 03:45:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Experience these just-for-Mom rewards! Message-ID: <200111091145.fA9Bjok26037@mail2.freesamples.com> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rewarding And Celebrating Moms ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | www.clubmom.com | Dear Richard, You can holiday shop till you drop and drain your wallet dry. Or you can enter ClubMom's "Tons of Toys for the Holidays" sweepstakes* for the chance to win a $1,000 KB Toys shopping spree and the help of a personal toy shopper. Entering is easy: Answer the one-question, daily poll about holiday shopping on ClubMom.com. And enter once a day, every day to maximize your chances of winning. Join ClubMom now to enter the Tons of Toys for the Holidays sweepstakes, plus get all the other rewards and benefits just for Moms--expert advice, special offers, helpful checklists, and Mom message boards. Visit http://www.clubmom.com/promotions/promotion.jhtml?sourceid=$aKBT$tTXT$pFSP$c012 to enter the sweepstakes. Sincerely, Anne ClubMom Advocate www.clubmom.com /---------------------------------------------------------------------------/ * No purchase necessary. Must be U.S. resident 18 years of age or older. Sweepstakes ends 11:59 pm E.S.T. on 11/26/01. Void where prohibited. Visit http://www.clubmom.com/promotions/rules.jhtml?sourceid=$aKBT for Official Rules. Join ClubMom and enter the Tons of Toys for the Holidays Sweepstakes visit http://www.clubmom.com/promotions/promotion.jhtml?sourceid=$aKBT When you registered, you indicated you would like to receive information about special offers from our partners. To avoid receiving future notifications of special offers, please login to www.FreeSamples.com?v=cms and go to the My Preference page to update your preferences. Please note: this message was sent from a send only mailbox, please do not reply to this message. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4439 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bounce at fantasy-mail.com Thu Nov 8 21:46:35 2001 From: bounce at fantasy-mail.com (Fantasy Mail) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 05:46:35 GMT Subject: We Have Received Your Confirmation Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7112 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Fri Nov 9 08:13:55 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 06:13:55 -1000 Subject: more on Nancy Oden In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109061139.02b1a100@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> I can honestly claim contact with Britons, mostly (but not exclusively) occurring during port visits to Hong Kong and other liberty ports where they were present ashore. At 01:57 PM 11/9/01 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >british males call eachother cunts all the time. >i'm not sure if this is related. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sandy Sandfort" >To: "Reese" ; >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 5:51 PM >Subject: RE: more on Nancy Oden > > >> That's nonsense. Please explain the informational content of the >> word "cunt" as you used it. By the way, there is no validity in >> trying to hand the "PC" sign on me for two reasons: a) I'm about >> as far as you can get from being PC, and b) your use PC accusation >> makes sense ONLY if your use of the word "cunt" was meant as a >> general reference to women. You cannot have it both ways. From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 9 06:52:17 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 06:52:17 -0800 Subject: America the Damned In-Reply-To: <24fd34e020efbe5fba945a8d91417ebd@dizum.com> Message-ID: <200111091157.GAA24715@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Nomen Nescio wrote: >It was only when Tim May turned away from cryptography and shifted his >focus to firearms and Y2K and violent fantasies of revenge that the tone >of the group changed. It is very likely that many of his writings fit >the definition above, being made "with intent to cause the overthrow >or destruction of any such government," and "advocating, advising, or >teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing >or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence". >Tim May has advised us many times to kill judges and police officers, >congressmen and jail guards. He has said endlessly that the U.S. >government needs to be overthrown by violence. This is not true, but a shrewd mistatement often used by law enforcement and rats out to cover their asses to please unknown authorities. Robb London, Jeff Gordon, the lady from Waco and USG-friendly witnesses have repeatedly made such mistatements. A fair number of subscribers here have made such mistatements here and at the Bell and CJ trials. What the mistatements disclose are attitudes and beliefs which lead to those famous eye-witness reports which seem unshakeably true until shown to be false by careful examination of the state of mind of the witness, and confrontation of the witness with alternative evidence. Now people do get sent to prison and executed on the basis of unture witness and expert testimonry, so these mistatements are not forgiveable, nor unpunishable, unless they are made from behind a protective shield, which most are, initially, and then, lo, the shield disappears when the distortion is no longer useful. So watch your assertions Nomen, for false accusations are mean sons of bitches that turn on you. You know I mean verbal retribution, don't you? When your anonymity disappears, which it has in case you've not noticed. >All of us will agree that such statements should be legal, on the >principle of freedom of speech, even if we find the sentiments abhorrent. >But these calls for violence have nothing to do with the cypherpunk >movement. They don't belong here. Tim May has turned this mailing list >into his personal toilet, an outlet for his impotent revenge fantasies. >In doing so he has not only destroyed what was once one of the finest >discussion forums in the world; he may have endangered other subscribers, >if those outdated and unconstitutional laws are ever put back into force. This is not true, but a willful mistatement. Tim May is a fine writer and thinker and exhorter. Your accusations fit many others on and off the Web but not Tim May. However, I expect you will be willing to testify, or have already testified, that what you fanatisize is true. This has been demonstrated here several times by others less able than Tim May. Nomen, there are many Tim Mays. Read the fucking archives to see who's driving you into the arms of the enemy. The enemy is not who you think either, for there are Tim Mays there you wouldn't believe. Lower your prejudice, jaundice and cowardice. Pay attention to discussions here and provoke violent behavior. Prepare for long-time in jail or a taste of the needle. Then you'll be believable and not a yellow-bellied finger pointin reporter of false facts to boost your career. All this is said to divert attention away from me and my unassailable protective cloak. --Tim May "You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael Shirley From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 9 05:53:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:53:00 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | IBM Crypto Up For Grabs? Message-ID: <3BEBDFBC.6C68951D@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/09/008229.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 9 05:57:35 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:57:35 -0600 Subject: FT.com | TotalSearch | Global Archive | Article - German government faces collapse over war Message-ID: <3BEBE0CF.DBC866CE@ssz.com> http://globalarchive.ft.com/globalarchive/article.html?id=011109001089 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 9 05:58:36 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:58:36 -0600 Subject: Clinton calls terror a U.S. debt to past -- The Washington Times Message-ID: <3BEBE10C.1C1D28AB@ssz.com> http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011108-470100.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jokes at freeall.com Fri Nov 9 08:06:37 2001 From: jokes at freeall.com (Free4all Jokes) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:06:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joke of the Day! from Free4all.com Message-ID: <20011109160637.65770.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com> --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- CLICK HERE FOR THOUSANDS OF JOKES OR TO SUBSCRIBE TO JOKE OF THE DAY --------------------------------- If you do not wish to receive this mail please unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to the unsubscribe address. Your unsubscribe address: jokes-unsubscribe-cypherpunks=toad.com at boss.free4all.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume on Yahoo! Careers. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alqaeda at hq.org Fri Nov 9 09:48:45 2001 From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:48:45 -0800 Subject: US psyops uses Napster to steal music for broadcast Message-ID: <3BEC16FC.EE964815@hq.org> http://www.msnbc.com/news/654592.asp?cp1=1 "He [Sgt in 4th psyops group] has downloaded hundreds more tunes from Internet sites that specialize in Afghan music." ---- No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. -GW Bush From nobody at dizum.com Fri Nov 9 00:50:10 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:50:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: America the Damned Message-ID: <24fd34e020efbe5fba945a8d91417ebd@dizum.com> http://law2.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+1050+18++%28sedition%29 U.S. Code Title 18, Chapter 115: Sec. 2384. Seditious conspiracy If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both. Sec. 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof - Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.... These laws broadly forbid organizing to use force to attack the government. But the cypherpunks movement was originally conceived as a way to evade government, not to attack it. Using cryptography, people could communicate freely and avoid government regulations; they could make voluntary agreements without the government being able to interfere; they could exchange goods and services of value without the government being able to take a share. None of this involved using force in any way. At most it would make the government irrelevant by giving people the opportunity voluntarily to move their activities out of its sphere of influence. It was only when Tim May turned away from cryptography and shifted his focus to firearms and Y2K and violent fantasies of revenge that the tone of the group changed. It is very likely that many of his writings fit the definition above, being made "with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government," and "advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence". Tim May has advised us many times to kill judges and police officers, congressmen and jail guards. He has said endlessly that the U.S. government needs to be overthrown by violence. All of us will agree that such statements should be legal, on the principle of freedom of speech, even if we find the sentiments abhorrent. But these calls for violence have nothing to do with the cypherpunk movement. They don't belong here. Tim May has turned this mailing list into his personal toilet, an outlet for his impotent revenge fantasies. In doing so he has not only destroyed what was once one of the finest discussion forums in the world; he may have endangered other subscribers, if those outdated and unconstitutional laws are ever put back into force. From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Nov 9 10:01:37 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:01:37 -0800 Subject: The Republican Position on USC T 18 Ch 115 Sec 2383ff Message-ID: <3BEC1A01.DFD4A850@lsil.com> What a guy! Abraham Lincoln : "Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." President Abraham Lincoln, "First Inaugural Address" (available at http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html) "Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable,---a most sacred right---a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it." (Speech in the United States House of Representatives, Jan. 12, 1848) As far as I am concerned, to the extent that a government restricts speech against it, it betrays its weakness and strengthens the oppostion. When was the last time we heard one of our current crop of political weenies speak so clearly or with such faith in the governed? Not in my lifetime. Mike From cfontenot1 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 9 10:02:56 2001 From: cfontenot1 at hotmail.com (coretta fontenot) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:02:56 -0800 Subject: explosives Message-ID: How can I make an explosive? its cause that's my science project This is my e-mail numberhottiev at excite.com please write back -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 581 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bounce at fantasy-mail.com Fri Nov 9 02:23:12 2001 From: bounce at fantasy-mail.com (Fresh by Fantasy Mail) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:23:12 GMT Subject: Fresh by Fantasy Mail Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8739 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pasticcanet at inwind.it Fri Nov 9 01:24:32 2001 From: pasticcanet at inwind.it (Samuel) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:24:32 +0100 Subject: cypherpunk list Message-ID: <001d01c16900$57b85820$f787623e@pasticcanet> From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Nov 9 10:30:29 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:30:29 -0800 Subject: The Republican Position on USC T 18 Ch 115 Sec 2383ff References: Message-ID: <3BEC20C5.F7D1A45C@lsil.com> OK, you got me, so I'm guilty of that political trick of ignoring the broader picture and using only partial facts in support of my own narrow point of view. sosumi ;) The words, taken on their own, are fine words and I stick by the bit about a government's willingness to persecute dissidents being a sign of its inherent weakness and lack of fitness to serve. Mike "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > > From: mmotyka at lsil.com[SMTP:mmotyka at lsil.com] > > What a guy! > > Abraham Lincoln : > > > > "Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can > > exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their > > revolutionary right to dismember or > > overthrow it." > > > > President Abraham Lincoln, "First Inaugural Address" (available at > > http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html) > > > > "Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the > > right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new > > one that suits them > > better. This is a most valuable,---a most sacred right---a right, which > > we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right > > confined to cases in which the > > whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it." > > > > (Speech in the United States House of Representatives, Jan. 12, 1848) > > > > > > As far as I am concerned, to the extent that a government restricts > > speech against it, it betrays its weakness and strengthens the > > oppostion. When was the last time we heard one of our current crop of > > political weenies speak so clearly or with such faith in the governed? > > Not in my lifetime. > > Mike > ------------ > As I said in an earlier post, there is usually a gulf - a huge one, between > what institutions say and what they do > > Consider these actions of Lincoln in the light the above quotes: > > >From 'Getting Lincoln Right': > http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman50.html > > [...] > Also, should those who debate the greatness of Lincoln > ignore the fact that he arrested and exiled a US Congressman > from Ohio - Clement Valladingham - who was also running for > governor of Ohio at the time, over anti-war remarks made > during a campaign speech? Valladingham was arrested in his > bedroom in the middle of the night. > > Should one also overlook Lincoln's destruction of the rule > of law in "loyal" Maryland? When Maryland voiced its support > for the CSA and appeared itself ready to secede, Lincoln > arrested 31 Maryland legislators, the mayor of Baltimore > (the nation's 3rd largest city at the time), and a US > Congressman from Maryland, as well as numerous editors and > publishers. > > Not only did Lincoln imprison two US Congressmen, he also > wrote out an arrest warrant for the Chief Justice of the US > Supreme Court, Roger Taney, after Taney wrote the opinion in > Ex Parte Merryman (1861) rebuking Lincoln's illegitimate > suspension of habeas corpus (see Charles Adams, p > 46-53). John Marshall, whose opinion in Marbury v. Madison > (1803) famously declared that "It is emphatically the > province and duty of the judicial department to say what the > law is," also wrote the opinion in Ex Parte Bollman and > Swartwout (1807) declaring that suspension of habeas corpus > was a power vested only in the Congress. Lincoln simply > ignored the law. Additionally, US Army troops refused to > release Merryman into the custody of a federal marshal sent > by Taney pursuant to the court order that Merryman be freed. > > Lincoln, then, imprisoned members of the federal legislative > branch, and also sought to imprison the chief member of the > federal judiciary. What happened to checks and balances? > Lincoln, with the backing of the army, simply exercised > whatever powers he desired. As noted Lincoln scholar Mark > Neely writes in The Last Best Hope of Earth, Lincoln > arrested the Marylanders "without much agonizing over their > constitutionality" (p 133). > [...] From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 9 09:07:59 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:07:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [EMED-L] abuse of ed's (fwd) Message-ID: Another not-so-benign view of national ID cards, brought to you by lamer with a license. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:31:27 -0500 From: owen bunnell Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners. To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU Subject: [EMED-L] abuse of ed's I HAVE READ WITH GREAT DISMAY CONCERNING THE ABUSE OF OUR NATIONS ED'S WHICH BY THE WAY HAS INCREASED THE WORK LOAD FOR US ALL. THERE IS ABUSE BY MILLIONS EVERYDAY WHO KNOW THEY CAN GO TO THE ED WITH FALSE CREDENTIALS, LIE ABOUT WHO THEY ARE, OR JUST REFUSE TO PAY THE FEE AT THERE PHYSICIANS OFFICE, WITH THE RESULT BEING THAT WE AS ED PHYSICIANS GET THE ULTIMATE 'DUMP'. THIS WILL NEVER GET FIXED UNTIL THERE IS SOME FORM OF REQUIRED NATIONAL ID CARD THAT YOU MUST PRESENT UPON ARRIVAL TO THE ED WHICH VERIFIES WHO YOU ARE WITH A UPDATED CORRECT ADDRESS, AND THE APPROVAL BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO ALLOW THIS TO BE IMPLEMENTED WITHOUT THREAT OF SUIT BY THE PATIENT. PATIENTS HAVE RIGHTS YES, BUT NOT THE RIGHT TO ABUSE OR COMMIT FRAUD. __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ To unsubscribe, send the command "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Nov 9 11:08:14 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:08:14 -0800 Subject: America the Damned Message-ID: <200111091908.fA9J8EP44139@mailserver1.hushmail.com> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. " Individuals are morally free to make the decision when the "Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends." And its their soverign duty to make war against the tyranny. Remember that only a small, perhaps less than 10%, of the Colonials took an active part in revolting against the Crowne. All Tim has done is advocated the same sort of treatment the founders advocated for formation of our country. All the goverment has done is to criminalize any utter of similar treatment of itself. Reminds me of the bumper stickers "Welcome to California, Now Go Home." Just what one expects from a statist group. Its OK that we were founded by revolution but not that we may be subjected to another revolution. Same as it ever was. While it is true that much of the early CP list debate centered on technology for empowerment of privacy, it was also regularly discussed that eventually the government might decide that such freedoms were damaging to their hegemony and take measures to punish adherents and suppliers of these "munitions". When one is subjected to tyranny one has several choices, including: hiding, kneeling and waiting for the shit to blow over, and fighting. This fighting may be in the legal arena, but in times of "national emergency" the likelyhood of finding an unbiased ear on the bench or the jury box may preclude a fair trial. In that case one might identify the oppressors and individually target them. I suggest if you find expression of such logical sentiment objectionable that you leave the list. From piolenc at mozcom.com Thu Nov 8 19:09:47 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 11:09:47 +0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection References: <8837126A-D470-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BEB48FB.D3A19B34@mozcom.com> Tim May wrote: > Nomen Nescio and others should read Chaum's "Credentials without > identity" papers. A true name is just another credential, not > necessarily more important than any of several other credentials. People > should think deeply about this issue. I would like to read these papers. Are they available on-line? Marc de Piolenc -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 9 09:30:01 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:30:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > jamesd at echeque.com[SMTP:jamesd at echeque.com] wrote: > > If the anthrax attack is internal, then they > > are in charge and they get to spy on all us right wing > > extremist hate groups. I may be a hate group, but I am NOT a _right wing_ hate group. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From morrow39 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 9 10:03:31 2001 From: morrow39 at hotmail.com (matt .) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:03:31 -0600 Subject: explosives Message-ID: Science project? omg shut the hell up. For all we know, your probably some crazed arab going on a suicide spree >From: "coretta fontenot" >To: >Subject: explosives >Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:02:56 -0800 > >How can I make an explosive? its cause that's my science project > > >This is my e-mail numberhottiev at excite.com please write back _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 12:06:09 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:06:09 -0800 Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks, November 10, 2001, San Francisco Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011109115246.03043bf0@idiom.com> See http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html for SF, Toronto, & Bangalore Cypherpunks announcements. SF Bay Area Cypherpunks November 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement General Info: DATE: Saturday 10 November 2001 TIME: 1-5 PM (Pacific Time) LOCATION: San Francisco Foundation, 225 Bush St., 5th Floor The password for making the door guard happy is "I'm here for the cypherpunks meeting". Agenda "Our agenda is a widely-held secret." As usual, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited. However, it's in an office building, so they'd appreciate if you have a nom de plume to sign in with. Any problems, call Bill Stewart at +1-415-307-7119. Black Unicorn continues with Part II of his talk on the black market, the manner in which it has evolved over the last quarter century, and the lessons cypherpunks might be able to learn about networks, infastructures, security and black markets in general. Len Sassaman will be talking about the Mixmaster email remailer tool - there's been a lot of development work recently on this tool for email anonymizing, including developer mailing list at the SourceForge Open Source Software repository. https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixmaster-devel Dave Del Torto will be presenting current work for the CryptoRights Foundation, including a description of the upcoming meeting in with European developers. San Francisco Foundation at 225 Bush Street (5th Floor) in SF, very close to the Sutter Stockton Garage and BART. It's about a block and a half north of 1st & Market St. From Caltrain, most of the busses go up to 3rd & Market St. and turn either right or left. Map URL: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&addr=225+bush&csz=san+francisco%2C+ca&Country=us&Get%A0Map=Get+Map From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 12:22:10 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:22:10 -0800 Subject: Black Unicorn's talk at Saturday's meeting Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011109122029.03050450@idiom.com> In Part One of "Squeezing the Jello" we covered the basics of the production of Cocaine HCl. We touched on the economic incentives to produce cocaine, down to the level of the peasant farmer. We also introduced some of the major players in the Medellin and Cali Cartels based in Columbia, examined their development into the "godfathers of cocaine" and discussed the challenges they faced in producing a market and distribution network for cocaine in the United States. We examined the evolution of the cocaine market and the increasing challenges to the transportation and logistic segments of international narcotics trafficking starting primarily in the Reagan era. We discovered the first hints of the adaptive nature of cocaine smuggling and the narcotics trafficking empires, now risen in power and influence both in Latin America and in the United States. Finally, we discussed the increasing technological and military involvement in the "war on drugs" and the changes in the cocaine trade, including the fall of the great cartels, that followed those developments. We ended with a description of the status quo of the cocaine trade today. In Part Two, we will review some of the things we learned in Part One. We will examine the cocaine trade again with an emphasis on its economic impacts and changes over the last three decades. We will go over the major players in the trade and their eventual fates. We will transition to the current state of affairs in the cocaine trade and draw some conclusions about the effectiveness of enforcement efforts given the evolved and advanced nature of the international narcotics trade. Finally, we will examine in detail the fates of the large players in the trade, the missteps they may have made and how the trade has evolved. The talk will end with some predications about the direction of the cocaine trade, the prospects for stopping the import of cocaine into the United States and the lessons we might learn about underground economies from the more than three decades of experience the international narcotics smuggling trade has given us. Methods we might use to apply these lessons to cypherpunky projects will be outlined and some related and future projects will be introduced to the group. See you there. From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Nov 9 12:43:17 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:43:17 -0800 Subject: A Simple Plan ( Re: explosives ) Message-ID: <3BEC3FE5.A7A89FDF@lsil.com> "matt ." wrote : > >Science project? omg shut the hell up. For all we know, your probably some >crazed arab going on a suicide spree > By the name perhaps a "Basque Separatist" is more likely. >From: "coretta fontenot" > >How can I make an explosive? its cause that's my science project > It's a fairly simple process really. 1) read about many types 2) choose one 3) get the materials 4) make it 5) turn the material in to your watch commander 6) blame everyone that you found to be of assistance during your project of providing material assistance to terrorists #6 is all too likely to be true because some terrorists wear uniforms and some hold public office. From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Fri Nov 9 11:10:06 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:10:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection Message-ID: <0dc5afb68991b4f16241a6e40d012221@mixmaster.nullify.org> Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Tim May wrote: > > Nomen Nescio and others should read Chaum's "Credentials without > > identity" papers. A true name is just another credential, not > > necessarily more important than any of several other credentials. People > > should think deeply about this issue. > > I would like to read these papers. Are they available on-line? Chaum has a list of papers at www.chaum.com but most are not online. One that is online describes credential systems along with related technologies: "Security Without Identification: Transaction Systems to Make Big Brother Obsolete", http://www.chaum.com/articles/Security_Wthout_Identification.htm In exchange for providing you with these pointers, you are obligated to return the favor. Your assignment, Marc de Piolenc, is to read and understand this paper and to report back to cypherpunks with ideas about how pseudonymous credentials could be used to improve airport security. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Nov 9 10:11:40 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:11:40 -0500 Subject: The Republican Position on USC T 18 Ch 115 Sec 2383ff Message-ID: > From: mmotyka at lsil.com[SMTP:mmotyka at lsil.com] > What a guy! > Abraham Lincoln : > > "Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can > exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their > revolutionary right to dismember or > overthrow it." > > President Abraham Lincoln, "First Inaugural Address" (available at > http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html) > > "Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the > right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new > one that suits them > better. This is a most valuable,---a most sacred right---a right, which > we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right > confined to cases in which the > whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it." > > (Speech in the United States House of Representatives, Jan. 12, 1848) > > > As far as I am concerned, to the extent that a government restricts > speech against it, it betrays its weakness and strengthens the > oppostion. When was the last time we heard one of our current crop of > political weenies speak so clearly or with such faith in the governed? > Not in my lifetime. > Mike ------------ As I said in an earlier post, there is usually a gulf - a huge one, between what institutions say and what they do Consider these actions of Lincoln in the light the above quotes: >From 'Getting Lincoln Right': http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman50.html [...] Also, should those who debate the greatness of Lincoln ignore the fact that he arrested and exiled a US Congressman from Ohio - Clement Valladingham - who was also running for governor of Ohio at the time, over anti-war remarks made during a campaign speech? Valladingham was arrested in his bedroom in the middle of the night. Should one also overlook Lincoln's destruction of the rule of law in "loyal" Maryland? When Maryland voiced its support for the CSA and appeared itself ready to secede, Lincoln arrested 31 Maryland legislators, the mayor of Baltimore (the nation's 3rd largest city at the time), and a US Congressman from Maryland, as well as numerous editors and publishers. Not only did Lincoln imprison two US Congressmen, he also wrote out an arrest warrant for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court, Roger Taney, after Taney wrote the opinion in Ex Parte Merryman (1861) rebuking Lincoln's illegitimate suspension of habeas corpus (see Charles Adams, p 46-53). John Marshall, whose opinion in Marbury v. Madison (1803) famously declared that "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is," also wrote the opinion in Ex Parte Bollman and Swartwout (1807) declaring that suspension of habeas corpus was a power vested only in the Congress. Lincoln simply ignored the law. Additionally, US Army troops refused to release Merryman into the custody of a federal marshal sent by Taney pursuant to the court order that Merryman be freed. Lincoln, then, imprisoned members of the federal legislative branch, and also sought to imprison the chief member of the federal judiciary. What happened to checks and balances? Lincoln, with the backing of the army, simply exercised whatever powers he desired. As noted Lincoln scholar Mark Neely writes in The Last Best Hope of Earth, Lincoln arrested the Marylanders "without much agonizing over their constitutionality" (p 133). [...] From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Fri Nov 9 13:12:59 2001 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:12:59 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109123407.046523c0@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 01:10 AM 11/9/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: >[...] >A few other irrelevant points have been made. Given that ID is not >perfectly reliable, do we need to tattoo numbers on people's forearms? >This is the fallacy of perfection. ID can be combined with a simple >thumbprint for biometric identification (already widely used for cashing >checks) and you will raise the cost of forgery considerably. Bullshit. There's no real-time on-line database of ordinary citizen fingerprints available to match versus ID cards, even if the cards (which don't exist and haven't been issued) were available. Thumbprints taken in banks don't do anything to immediately ID the person cashing a check - they provide evidence about who got the money, if the check turns out to have been fraudulent or stolen .. but to be worth much, the fingerprint needs to be matched to a name (which is only possible if that finger of that person has been fingerprinted and archived before, and they're both good, readable prints), or to a physical body, which might happen after an arrest. They're evidence which is useful in court, but they don't do a thing to tell the bank whether or not the transaction is likely to fail. So, yeah, sure, thumbprints would let us know if the dead suicide bomber's "real name" was really the one he used to rent the truck or buy the plane ticket .. or if he just got started on his project early enough to get his stolen identity matched to his real fingerprint .. but how, exactly, is that going to Save the Children? I agree that it will help law enforcement agents make a nice crisp presentation in Congressional hearings about how they dug up the suicide bomber's Permanent Record all the way back to preschool less than 45 minutes after they turned a daycare center into a slaughterhouse .. but I don't really give a shit about that. The only way you can use fingerprints and ID cards to begin to prevent the killing in the first place looks like this: 1. Reliably fingerprint everyone on the planet and record their "true name", whatever that is, and issue ID cards to them with that data. 2. Cross-reference the data in (1) with existing criminal, intelligence, mental health data, making sure that in the process of doing that you don't screw up people's right to privacy in medical records, reveal existing investigations, or reveal intelligence sources/methods. 3. Distribute cheap and reliable fingerprint readers all over the planet (or maybe all over the US, though it's hard for me to imagine other countries will cooperate with (1) unless they get them too) so that people's fingerprints can be imaged locally. 4. Build a real-time database capable of storing & retrieving the data from (1) and (2) given fuzzy images from (3), and a network capable of providing simultaneous access for millions of clients. 5. Give access to (4) to everyone who needs it, but prevent them from using the data they gather (like fingerprint images and personal data) for ID theft or impersonation. 6. Develop either an algorithm/expert system which decides which people ID'd within the system are allowed to do certain things (like "board a plane", "buy av gas", "rent a truck", etc), or delegate that decision to many thousands of minimum-wage clerks, who will not be susceptible to trickery nor bribes. Can you get that up and running in, say, 60 days? California has been trying for years to get a vastly less ambitious system working even a little bit at the Department of Motor Vehicles - at one point (several years in) they figured out that they had to throw away everything they'd done so far and start all over again. A project like you propose in your casual, offhand manner is probably 100 times more expensive and more complicated that California's .. but that doesn't seem to scare you. The IRS's computer system is in similar disarray - they can't always find records or correlate things, and they've gone ahead and assigned everyone nice easy numbers, and they operate on a timeframe of months and years, not seconds ticking by at a departure gate or a gas station pump. The FBI tried to build a database of disqualified firearm purchasers for use in the "instant check" process and it's proved to have an error rate of between 5 and 10%. If the CA DMV, the IRS, and the FBI can't get these sorts of databases up and running given their already generous budgets (millions and billions) and timeframes measured in years, how can you possibly think that anything like this is even possible - even before reaching the "is it a good idea?" question. > Many of >the hijackers would have been caught simply by cross-referencing their >IDs against existing databases. That's what El Al does and they have an >excellent safety record in the most terrorist-infested part of the world. Hmm. Then it's funny that Mohammed Atta (likely the worst-looking on paper, since he's the guy who was meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague and had outstanding criminal/traffic warrants) was able to clear Customs when he re-entered the country. The "ID card" fairy tale still loses. Further, your "perfection isn't necessary" argument would be reasonable if we weren't talking about trying to solve a terrorist problem - but it's my impression that's the context of this discussion. The interesting thing about terrorism is that its direct effects aren't especially important - it's the secondary effects on people not physically affected by the event which give terrorism its power. Losing 5000 people in one day to an identifiable cause - or the 3 or 4 that we've lost to anthrax - is absolutely nothing, statistically speaking. Red meat and cigarettes probably kill a WTC's worth of people every day in the US alone - and we probably lose an anthrax letter's worth of deaths every day to even more obscure stuff like bee stings or wading pools. Those events are powerful not because of the people killed and property damaged, but because of the fear that the other 230 million people in the US feel (+ more worldwide), because they're faced with the possibility of successful, similar attacks - and that's why a mealy-mouthed "my security system isn't perfect but it'll reduce the marginal success rate and that's still valuable" doesn't even come close to solving the problem, because people are already freaked out about a statistically insignificant risk. Reducing that infinitesimal risk further without eliminating it is a waste of time. (Accordingly, some measures do nothing to reduce the actual risk but make people feel better because of their superstitious beliefs about the power of guns or databases or the application of arbitrary screening and sorting rules. The placebo effect created by these measures isn't unimportant - but let's create it by more traditional and less risky means, like prayer and faith in supreme beings and/or ritual pledges of allegiance or other ceremonies, instead of wasting lots of time and money creating unstable oppression systems ripe for misuse or takeover.) -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 11:44:57 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:44:57 -0600 Subject: America the Beautiful In-Reply-To: <200111091908.fA9J8EP44139@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of keyser-soze at hushmail.com > I suggest if you find expression of such logical sentiment > objectionable that you leave the list. Can't we just object? "I object." Said objection is now a part of the record. From evs12345 at email.ru Fri Nov 9 02:51:24 2001 From: evs12345 at email.ru (EVS) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:51:24 +0300 Subject: - / VISA SERVICES Message-ID: <20011109105247.7BCC7235CE@hueymiccailhuitl.mtu.ru> ОФОРМЛЕНИЕ ЗАГРАНПАСПОРТОВ (Цены указаны для жителей Москвы и Моск. области) 35 раб.дней - $70 21-23 раб.дней - $140 15-17 раб.дней - $180 10-12 раб.дней - $260 По Вашему запросу вышлем комплект необходимых документов для оформления загранпаспорта. ВИЗОВЫЕ УСЛУГИ Оформление приглашений для ИНОСТРАНЦЕВ в Россию. Однократное на 1 месяц - $ 25 Многократное на 1 год- $ 150 *Правовые вопросы относительно пребывания иностранных граждан на территории РФ, проблемные случаи. *Вопросы выезда РОССИЯН за рубеж, оформление надлежащих документов (ВИЗЫ). БЕСПЛАТНЫЙ ВЫЕЗД КУРЬЕРА К ВАМ В ОФИС В ПРЕДЕЛАХ г. МОСКВЫ ТЕЛ./ФАКС: (095) 797-0408 797-0482 107-7858 926-5591 VISA SERVICES Legalization of the Russian visa-invitations for foreign citizens. Single for 1 month-only $25 Multiple for 1 year-only $150 *Solution of legal matters concerning foreign citizens stay on the territory of Russian Federation, questionable issues. *Assistance in visas registration for the foreign citizens in Russia. *Solution of the problems concerning RUSSIAN citizens departure abroad, registration of the proper documents: foreign passports and visas. TEL/FAX: +7(095) 797-0408 797-0482 107-7858 926-5591 From bpayne37 at home.com Fri Nov 9 12:55:14 2001 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:55:14 -0700 Subject: email blitz References: <001b01c1674b$f0dce0e0$61c9b440@bc.hsia.telus.net> <012801c16953$447f9ae0$b5ecb618@sandia1.nm.home.com> <009801c1695d$90205e80$61c9b440@bc.hsia.telus.net> Message-ID: <002301c16960$d5430280$b5ecb618@sandia1.nm.home.com> Anita I'm not sure how I can personally help. I'm a bit into IT with the feds myself. The feds may have pulled all of the files on one of our websites. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ Try doing the blitz email to congress. I think including links http://orlingrabbe.com/ricono.htm http://orlingrabbe.com/binladin_timosman.htm would help identify who michael is and why the feds want to silence him. good luck! bill Alex http://www.geocities.com/piramidauk/main.html and Ahmad http://www.iran-daneshjoo.org/ Here's the link Anita is referencing http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ Hey, what's happening here in the US is about matching what happened in both your countries, as reported by the US News Media of course, at times. >From my standpoint http://orlingrabbe.com/ricono.htm is one of the better commentaries on crypto. Then, of course, there is http://orlingrabbe.com/bw1.htm :) have a good week-end guys. http://members.home.net/bpayne37/tach.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Anila To: bill payne Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:31 PM Subject: Re: email blitz I'm on it. I've made it up to the 'M's, about half require a zip code so I'm bypassing them. Too much to do. I've been advised that inquiries to the Bureau of Prisons, Public Relations Department in Washington, DC could really help move things along. Any help from you and your contacts would be greatly appreciated! Anita ----- Original Message ----- From: bill payne To: Anila Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 11:18 AM Subject: email blitz Blitz congress your messages. You can find email addresses here http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Anila To: anita Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:20 PM Subject: Michael Riconosciuto is in the hole! Michael Riconosciuto was pulled from his cell at 5AM this morning (Nov 6/01). He was not able to grab his records. He has been moved from Allenwood to a place he did not want to go. He is in the hole at Springfield, MO. Michael was revealing details of terrorist networks, now communications are severed and he has been taken to a place which is very dangerous for him. Michael J. Riconosciuto 21309-086 Box 4000 U.S. Medical Center Springfield, MO 65801-4000 He is in the hole because he would be attacked by other prisoners if he were in the regular facilities. They will need to move the main-threat person into the hole in order to get him time out of the hole - this won't do him a lot of good because other prisoners are also threats, and he could be beaten & killed. Michael was presented to the people at Springfield as someone who is mentally ill. Fortunately, he got someone to call Allenwood to verify the cancer problem. His new BOP councilors are Mr. Dunn and Mrs. Cunningham. CAPT Newton E. Kendig II., M.D., Medical Director and Phillip S. Wise, Assistant Director are two men who can make a real difference. Please call them and let them know how important it is that Michael be given every opportunity to survive this ordeal. The Federal Bureau of Prisons Central Office is located at 320 First St., NW., Washington, D.C. 20534. Office hours are 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Eastern time, Monday through Friday. Phone 202-307-3055. Fax 202-307-0826. Another potential source for assistance would be Congressman Petersen's office. Phone: 814-827-3985. Calls to local representatives would also help. I have spoken with Michael on the phone as recently as Sunday. He told me he has all the information needed to totally expose the terrorist networks. We needed time to unravel them. Now communications with him are cut off. How long he can live in the hole when he is already ill, I don't know, but it is no way to treat a sick man, and no way to treat a person who is attempting to stop a disaster. Sincerely, Anita Langley www.mindgallery.com/hiddenroom/wizard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at paranoici.org Fri Nov 9 04:57:23 2001 From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:57:23 +0100 Subject: more on Nancy Oden Message-ID: british males call eachother cunts all the time. i'm not sure if this is related. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandy Sandfort" To: "Reese" ; Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 5:51 PM Subject: RE: more on Nancy Oden > That's nonsense. Please explain the informational content of the > word "cunt" as you used it. By the way, there is no validity in > trying to hand the "PC" sign on me for two reasons: a) I'm about > as far as you can get from being PC, and b) your use PC accusation > makes sense ONLY if your use of the word "cunt" was meant as a > general reference to women. You cannot have it both ways. From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 9 12:08:31 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:08:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: America the Beautiful In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: Welcome back Gordon. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ericm at lne.com Fri Nov 9 14:31:54 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:31:54 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109123407.046523c0@bivens.parrhesia.com>; from gbroiles@parrhesia.com on Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 01:12:59PM -0800 References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109123407.046523c0@bivens.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <20011109143154.A10292@slack.lne.com> On Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 01:12:59PM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: [a lot of well-written stuff on ID cards etc. deleted. If you didn't read it, go back and dig it up] > (Accordingly, some measures do nothing to reduce the actual risk but make > people feel better because of their superstitious beliefs about the power > of guns or databases or the application of arbitrary screening and sorting > rules. The placebo effect created by these measures isn't unimportant - but > let's create it by more traditional and less risky means, like prayer and > faith in supreme beings and/or ritual pledges of allegiance or other > ceremonies, instead of wasting lots of time and money creating unstable > oppression systems ripe for misuse or takeover.) ID cards are another feel-good measure, nothing more. As you correctly point out, they won't add any real security against terrorism unless taken to very impractical lengths. But the people think they will help, just like the poorly-trained national guard troops in airports. Worse, the people have been sold the ideas that increased security means giving up freedoms and therefore anything that reduces freedom must be increasing security. Eric From ashwood at msn.com Fri Nov 9 12:46:56 2001 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:46:56 -0600 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109123407.046523c0@bivens.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <015a01c16960$1c721520$bdc0b6c7@josephas> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Broiles" To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 3:12 PM Subject: CDR: Re: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection > At 01:10 AM 11/9/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: > >[...] > >A few other irrelevant points have been made. Given that ID is not > >perfectly reliable, do we need to tattoo numbers on people's forearms? > >This is the fallacy of perfection. ID can be combined with a simple > >thumbprint for biometric identification (already widely used for cashing > >checks) and you will raise the cost of forgery considerably. > > Bullshit. There's no real-time on-line database of ordinary citizen > fingerprints available to match versus ID cards, even if the cards (which > don't exist and haven't been issued) were available. Then let's make proper use of technology. We want to make sure the ID card is issued by the correct authority, that's almost exactly what digital signatures were designed for. Just create some uniform way of computing the data from the card (easiest would be to just use a plain old-fashioned smartcard), and check the signature against a publicly known public key. It's really quite simple. > So, yeah, sure, thumbprints would let us know if the dead suicide bomber's > "real name" was really the one he used to rent the truck or buy the plane > ticket .. or if he just got started on his project early enough to get his > stolen identity matched to his real fingerprint .. but how, exactly, is > that going to Save the Children? That is the far bigger problem. Identifying these people simply won't make any difference. If a person is intent on being a suicide bomber, they will blow other people up with them, no matter how well we can make an identification. > Can you get that up and running in, say, 60 days? Couldn't get the thumbprint idea going that quick, but smartcards and smartcard readers are already in mass production making my idea not easy, but possible to get underway in 60 days. Completion though would be a matter of approximately a decade. > California has been trying for years to get a vastly less ambitious system > working even a little bit at the Department of Motor Vehicles - at one > point (several years in) they figured out that they had to throw away > everything they'd done so far and start all over again. A project like you > propose in your casual, offhand manner is probably 100 times more expensive > and more complicated that California's .. but that doesn't seem to scare > you. The IRS's computer system is in similar disarray - they can't always > find records or correlate things, and they've gone ahead and assigned > everyone nice easy numbers, and they operate on a timeframe of months and > years, not seconds ticking by at a departure gate or a gas station pump. > The FBI tried to build a database of disqualified firearm purchasers for > use in the "instant check" process and it's proved to have an error rate of > between 5 and 10%. Very good examples of how not to go about it. My idea (while far from perfect or fully developed) lacks the same bottleneck points, the only information that needs to be accessed millions of times remains static across years, with a retrieval rate like that it would be more than possible to simply broadcast the key over a public broadcasting station along side the current time, since nobody is watching anyway you could easily take over the closed captioning for a few seconds to send out the key. I'm clearly not addressing certification of the key as correct but having the president read back a hash of it at the state of the union address (couldn't be any more boring than the rest) would certainly provide some evidence. > If the CA DMV, the IRS, and the FBI can't get these sorts of databases up > and running given their already generous budgets (millions and billions) > and timeframes measured in years, how can you possibly think that anything > like this is even possible - even before reaching the "is it a good idea?" > question. Agreed. > > Many of > >the hijackers would have been caught simply by cross-referencing their > >IDs against existing databases. That's what El Al does and they have an > >excellent safety record in the most terrorist-infested part of the world. > > Hmm. Then it's funny that Mohammed Atta (likely the worst-looking on paper, > since he's the guy who was meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent in > Prague and had outstanding criminal/traffic warrants) was able to clear > Customs when he re-entered the country. > > The "ID card" fairy tale still loses. I agree, no matter what method is chosen, the possibilities for abuse are excessive (some of these people can't even be trusted not to use a phone book improperly, give then some real power and who knows what will happen), and the value of the target is too great. Let's pretend that my idea is used. Let's say each card costs $10 to issue. How much is impersonation worth? Well for something of the impact of Sept 11 it could easily be estimated at billions of dollars. That will buy a massive amount of computer power, a large quantity of the world's best mathematicians, and a significant amount of time. I don't like the odds of DSA against that, it's too close to the wire right now, supplying a target of this size could be devastating. That leaves RSA varients, but for billions of dollars and a significant amount of time 2^80 work (SHA1) isn't that much, some less fully examined algorithm would have to be used, that presents it's own problems. Basically the target is simply too big for current standards, once SHA-512 is fully examined there may be a chance, but until then I just don't think the card everyone idea is cryptographicly feasible. The non-cryptographic methods would pose additional problems because anything that can be phyisically made by one person can be physically made by another. > Further, your "perfection isn't necessary" argument would be reasonable if > we weren't talking about trying to solve a terrorist problem - but it's my > impression that's the context of this discussion. The interesting thing > about terrorism is that its direct effects aren't especially important - > it's the secondary effects on people not physically affected by the event > which give terrorism its power. Losing 5000 people in one day to an > identifiable cause - or the 3 or 4 that we've lost to anthrax - is > absolutely nothing, statistically speaking. Red meat and cigarettes > probably kill a WTC's worth of people every day in the US alone - and we > probably lose an anthrax letter's worth of deaths every day to even more > obscure stuff like bee stings or wading pools. That's true, we certainly lose more people to far more mundane things every day than the WTC tragedy caused. But at the same time you have to realize that most people don't think about bee stings as a cause of death, they don't even think about bed they sleep in as a cause of death (look up the statistics it's hilarious), and both of those cause vastly more deaths each year as terrorism on average. The problem is that the media has hyped this up, the president's handlers have told him that this is a big deal, as a result of this the general populus wants blood. Thinking people know taht we will never eliminate terrorism, well I guess on a technicality we could, but it would require extermination of all but 1 human. >The placebo effect created by these measures [is important] I think that line says it all. Joe From mattd at useoz.com Thu Nov 8 20:44:42 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 15:44:42 +1100 Subject: americas insanity Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011109153609.00a33100@pop.useoz.com> 6 months ago I typed some words on an online form that led to a grand jury being set up and a subpoena being issued on the other side of the world.Only in america.Now I hear they are getting strict.ROTFL. Hows my jeff gordon prize pool going? From piolenc at mozcom.com Fri Nov 9 01:11:58 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 17:11:58 +0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection References: <7495D402-D4BF-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BEB9DDE.9ABA0FB3@mozcom.com> Tim May wrote: > > I would like to read these papers. Are they available on-line? > > > > If they are, search engines will very likely have indexed them. > > I would do the search for you, but your retainer has expired. Just thought you might know offhand. Search engines it is... Marc de Piolenc From america at proudandfree.com Fri Nov 9 16:24:03 2001 From: america at proudandfree.com (Sharlene) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 17:24:03 -0700 Subject: A PERMISSION REQUEST PLEASE? Message-ID: <280732001116100243950@w98sysrec> Hello, This is a one time mailing with information that you DO NOT want to MISS OUT on!!! If I have reached you by mistake please accept my apology and follow the simple REMOVE instructions at the end of this message. Thank You. EVERYONE HAS A DREAM! 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Message-ID: <537920011161002412410@w98sysrec> Hello, This is a one time mailing with information that you DO NOT want to MISS OUT on!!! If I have reached you by mistake please accept my apology and follow the simple REMOVE instructions at the end of this message. Thank You. EVERYONE HAS A DREAM! What I have to share with you COULD VERY WELL make YOUR dreams come true! May I have your permission to share with you a simple concept of giving and receiving that has brought me $500 dollars in CASH in a matter of DAYS and the only requirement to receive this amount of cash are to gift out $125 and bring in 2 people? The very next person to come on board gifts YOU $125 and that is 4 times over!!! An activity that CAN help you get through the upcoming holidays financially without having to charge up your high interest credit cards or maybe just help someone get back on their feet FINANCIALLY! WHAT A WONDERFUL GIFT THAT WOULD BE YES? A STOCKING FULL OF CASH!!!!!!!!! An ACTIVITY that may set YOU FREE FINANCIALLY! NO PRODUCTS TO SELL!! NO LARGE DOWNLINES TO BUILD!!! I work with a group of professional Givers and Receivers. What we are searching for is people with a desire to help others and who are able to work with us as a "TEAM" and introduce new people into our PRIVATE ACTIVITIES so they too may see the benefits of gifting. Everyone Has A Dream.... What's Your Dream? If you think this may be something of interest to you, please email me at....... america at proudandfree.com and learn how we not only help others financially, but help ourselves in return. VERY Rewarding! Please type "DREAMS" in the subject line. I will personally respond immediately. No autoresponder! Thank you for your time Wishing you success! Sharlene ************************************************************* To remove your name from this list, please simply send a blank email with "REMOVE" in the subject line to: america at proudandfree.com From ingo.wies at aral.net Fri Nov 9 09:28:11 2001 From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net) Date: 09 Nov 2001 17:28:11 UT Subject: Newsletter 2001-11-09 Message-ID: <0000E91F.3BEC202C@smtp.aral.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. For removal instructions see bottom of this newsletter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-: Siemens C45 orignal 200 pcs DEM 300 Siemens S45 400 pcs DEM 521 Siemens S40 600 pcs DEM 440 Nokia 8210 euro spec,blue 300 pcs DEM 405 Nokia 3310 original 600 pcs DEM 250 Nokia 3330 original 500 pcs DEM 270 Nokia 8310 eurospec 500 pcs DEM 705 Ericsson T29 original 500 pcs DEM 305 Sony Z7 original 500 pcs DEM 541 Sony Z5 original 1000 pcs DEM 490 Sony J70 original 400 pcs DEM 285 Sony DX1000 original new 350 pcs DEM 73 Motorola P7389 150 pcs DEM 185 Samsung A300 1000 pcs DEM 522 Motorola T191 silver 1000 pcs DEM 271 Motorola V3690 tit light 1000 pcs DEM 375 Motorola V66 200 pcs DEM 709 Ericsson R320 500 pcs DEM 129 Motorola T65 200 pcs DEM 495 Alcatel 511 100 pcs DEM 309 PSION Oganizers: Psion Revo Plus 16MB english version 3000 pcs DEM 530 min order 1000 pcs Also 966 pcs ORIGINAL english Nokia 6210 manuals for DEM 2!!!!!!!! Siemens SL45 car kit comfort 100 pcs DEM 161 Siemens SL45 voice car kit 50 pcs DEM 289 Siemens S35 car kit comfort 250 pcs DEM 161 FUJI Digital Cameras: FUJI Fine Pix 1300 200 pcs DEM 410 FUJI Fine Pix 2300 200 pcs DEM 551 Fuji Fine Pix 2400z 200 pcs DEM 820 Fuji Fine Pix 40i blue or silver 500 pcs DEM 998 Fuji Fine Pix 4700z 100 pcs DEM 1383 Fuji Fine Pix 6800z 100 pcs DEM 1334 Fuji Fine Pix S1 pro 50 pcs DEM 5767 We also can offer the following Siemens Gigaset DECT phones: Siemens Homestation 200 pcs DEM 169 Siemens Gigaset 3010 micro 1000 pcs DEM 225 THE NEW SIEMENS GIGASET 4000 SERIES IS NOW AVAILABLE!!!!!!!! Please ask for prices. FOB Düsseldorf/Germany, subject is to prior sales. Best regards Ingo Wies Aral Mobilfunk Partner KMT GmbH Tel +49 2102 87 47 254 Fax +49 2102 87 47 269 =============================================================== If you have received this message in error, or wish not to be included on future mailings please forward your e-mail address of which we have sent this message to. If you receive this message through another e-mail address we have no way of removing you from our list unless you provide the original e-mail address contained in the full header of the e-mail message. If this information has been removed by your server(s) we cannot control this and, again, have no way to remove your e-mail address. Simply reply to this message with "REMOVE" in the subject line. We wish to fully comply with your wishes and all applicable state and federal laws. Your cooperation and patience in this matter are very much appreciated. Thank You! =============================================================== From ingo.wies at aral.net Fri Nov 9 09:28:16 2001 From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net) Date: 09 Nov 2001 17:28:16 UT Subject: Newsletter 2001-11-09 Message-ID: <0000E91F.3BEC203E@smtp.aral.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. For removal instructions see bottom of this newsletter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-: Siemens C45 orignal 200 pcs DEM 300 Siemens S45 400 pcs DEM 521 Siemens S40 600 pcs DEM 440 Nokia 8210 euro spec,blue 300 pcs DEM 405 Nokia 3310 original 600 pcs DEM 250 Nokia 3330 original 500 pcs DEM 270 Nokia 8310 eurospec 500 pcs DEM 705 Ericsson T29 original 500 pcs DEM 305 Sony Z7 original 500 pcs DEM 541 Sony Z5 original 1000 pcs DEM 490 Sony J70 original 400 pcs DEM 285 Sony DX1000 original new 350 pcs DEM 73 Motorola P7389 150 pcs DEM 185 Samsung A300 1000 pcs DEM 522 Motorola T191 silver 1000 pcs DEM 271 Motorola V3690 tit light 1000 pcs DEM 375 Motorola V66 200 pcs DEM 709 Ericsson R320 500 pcs DEM 129 Motorola T65 200 pcs DEM 495 Alcatel 511 100 pcs DEM 309 PSION Oganizers: Psion Revo Plus 16MB english version 3000 pcs DEM 530 min order 1000 pcs Also 966 pcs ORIGINAL english Nokia 6210 manuals for DEM 2!!!!!!!! Siemens SL45 car kit comfort 100 pcs DEM 161 Siemens SL45 voice car kit 50 pcs DEM 289 Siemens S35 car kit comfort 250 pcs DEM 161 FUJI Digital Cameras: FUJI Fine Pix 1300 200 pcs DEM 410 FUJI Fine Pix 2300 200 pcs DEM 551 Fuji Fine Pix 2400z 200 pcs DEM 820 Fuji Fine Pix 40i blue or silver 500 pcs DEM 998 Fuji Fine Pix 4700z 100 pcs DEM 1383 Fuji Fine Pix 6800z 100 pcs DEM 1334 Fuji Fine Pix S1 pro 50 pcs DEM 5767 We also can offer the following Siemens Gigaset DECT phones: Siemens Homestation 200 pcs DEM 169 Siemens Gigaset 3010 micro 1000 pcs DEM 225 THE NEW SIEMENS GIGASET 4000 SERIES IS NOW AVAILABLE!!!!!!!! Please ask for prices. FOB Düsseldorf/Germany, subject is to prior sales. Best regards Ingo Wies Aral Mobilfunk Partner KMT GmbH Tel +49 2102 87 47 254 Fax +49 2102 87 47 269 =============================================================== If you have received this message in error, or wish not to be included on future mailings please forward your e-mail address of which we have sent this message to. If you receive this message through another e-mail address we have no way of removing you from our list unless you provide the original e-mail address contained in the full header of the e-mail message. If this information has been removed by your server(s) we cannot control this and, again, have no way to remove your e-mail address. Simply reply to this message with "REMOVE" in the subject line. We wish to fully comply with your wishes and all applicable state and federal laws. Your cooperation and patience in this matter are very much appreciated. Thank You! =============================================================== From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Fri Nov 9 17:34:01 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 17:34:01 PST Subject: Looking Toward Next Week! Message-ID: <200111100143.BAA29827@s0289.pm0.net> +>+>+> SOMEONE IN YOUR OFFICE IS MAKING YOU LOOK BAD! Xerox has a chilling opportunity for you. Enter to Win a 2002 Olympic Winter Games Trip or Phaser 860 Network Color Printer http://by.advertising.com/1/c/36660/34034/110232/110232 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT - NOVEMBER 10, 2001 Next Holiday - Thanksgiving: Turkey, Football and Relatives! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Hello All Investors, On Sunday night we will be sending out a new stock profile. Our last few profiles have performed with increased volume and nice gains!!! We look for this new stock to have an explosive next week. Keep your eyes open and Have a Great Weekend!!! +>+>+> AND COMMING UP... Next week will be moderately busy in terms of economic reports. On Wednesday we’ll get the October Retail Sales report, which is most likely to show growth over the month of September thanks to record-setting auto sales as well as to discount shopping. Also a number of readings on the manufacturing industry will be issued including the Philadelphia Fed survey, Business Inventories and Industrial Production. Those reports for the most part are not expected to reveal anything encouraging. Finally, the Consumer Price Index (CPI) is due out next Friday, and like today’s PPI numbers it is expected to indicate that inflation remains under control. Although the corporate earnings season was over in October, a bulk of key tech companies will report their results next week. Among them are Dell Computer, Hewlett Packard & Applied Materials. Besides earnings and economic reports, developments on the Afghanistan front will undoubtedly remain on everyone’s radar screen and any further military progress over the weekend could be an important catalyst for this market. +>+>+> TO VIEW OUR TWO DAILY STOCK PICKS BY HARRY AND BRUCE - Please go to our website http://www.wallstreetuniverse.com PEACE - Steven Schwartz and Staff mailto:support at wallstreetuniverse.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.t25.37kh From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 9 16:06:49 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 18:06:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Nov-L: DOJ field guidance for new terrorism law (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:40:41 -0800 From: Nora Callahan To: november-l at november.org Subject: Nov-L: DOJ field guidance for new terrorism law Friends: In reaction to the events of 9/11 sweeping new powers were given to law enforcement authorities. Below is a link to a pdf document the Department of Justice has prepared for field guidance on use of the new law. It provides a useful analysis of significantly expanded law enforcement authority. http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/DOJ_guidance.pdf Kevin Commons Sense for Drug Policy -- The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit organization, your gifts are tax deductible. You can send your donation to: The November Coalition 795 South Cedar Colville, WA 99114 -------- November-L is a voluntary mailing list of the November Coalition. To unsubscribe, visit http://www.november.org/lists/ or send a message to november-L-request at november.org containing the command "unsubscribe" From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 9 16:26:29 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 18:26:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ISN] Cyber-security czar snubs ID plan, defends Govnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Clarke said it is not clear that the country needs to have a mandatory > identity card, but suggested there might be a use for credit > card-sized smart cards that contain data and microchips. Such cards > could be used for specific actions such as boarding airplanes and > crossing U.S. borders, he said. Ahhh yes, the Internal Passport. I was wondering what took them so long to get around to this. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com Fri Nov 9 18:37:04 2001 From: bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocks) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 18:37:04 -0800 Subject: 'GTXE' - Gulftex Ready to Assist in Meeting US Oil Demands Message-ID: [Stockupticks.com] [Image] [Image] Welcome to Stockupticks.com Newsletter Issue #14 - November 09, 2001 [Image] [Image][Image] [Image] e-Blast [Image] *** Investment Alert Investment [Image] Alert *** StockUpTicks endeavors to bring you information about under-followed companies that may be of particular interest to investors in "discovery" emerging growth stocks. This Investment Alert highlights Gulftex Energy Corporation (OTC BB: GTXE). BUY AMERICAN ? Gulftex Is Positioned In The Market RIGHT NOW To Meet The Demands Of U.S. Energy Independence [Image] In the light of the U.S. reliance on foreign oil in this troubled world, domestic oil refineries are constantly strengthening their reserves in accord with the energy policy of President Bush As one analyst said, "No more being held as a hostage for oil." [Image] Gulftex Energy Corporation develops and manages oil and gas fields in New Mexico, Texas, the U.S. Gulf Coast and the Gulf of Mexico President Bush on being less dependent on foreign oil click here Department of Energy click here Story on oil dependence study by International Energy Agency click here [Image] *** Breaking News *** [Image] The Following News Was Released 3 hours AFTER THE MARKETS CLOSED TODAY. This means, for once, you won't be the last to know ! Friday November 9, 7:33 pm Eastern Time SOURCE: Gulftex Energy Corporation Global Oil Supply Uncertainty Raises Interest in American Oil Producers; Gulftex Oil Ready to Assist in Meeting Demand HOUSTON, Nov. 9 /PRNewswire/ -- Tensions in the oil rich Middle East have renewed interest in American oil reserves and domestic producers such as Gulftex Energy Corporation (OTC Bulletin Board: GTXE - news). In an ABC News report October 22, 2001, the network quoted Merrill Lynch analyst Steven Pfiefer as stating, ``It is quite feasible that we could see prices rise if conditions overseas escalate in some form,'' adding that Pfeifer and several other analysts are predicting higher oil prices similar to what the U.S. experienced during the 1970s when restrained production from OPEC and military and political volatility in the Middle East led to skyrocketing oil prices and fuel costs. Heightening fears of a diminished oil supply are U.S. Government suggestions that the ``War on Terrorism'' could extend to other nations beyond Afghanistan, some of which may be OPEC nations or allies of OPEC countries. The effect of such action could ``abruptly change'' the output from OPEC according to the ABC report. OPEC meets again in Vienna on November 14, 2001. Moreover, ABC states that U.S. ally Saudi Arabia produces more than double the oil production of the rest of the world combined and as a potential target of exiled Saudi Osama Bin Laden, a ``nightmare scenario'' would be a successful attack on that oil supply or its distributing ports. Amid these fears, interest has risen in domestic oil suppliers such as Gulftex Energy Corporation, a Houston based integrated petroleum company involved in exploration and production, transportation, refining, and retail marketing. The company develops and manages oil and gas fields, focusing on the Permian Basin in New Mexico and Texas, onshore United States Gulf Coast, and the Gulf of Mexico, offshore in Indonesia, Nigeria and Qatar. The Company is also involved in pipeline transportation, oil & refined products trading, and shipping. The ABC report also states that an alternative to Middle Eastern oil dependence is to develop existing oil resources within the United States. The U.S. Energy Department is expected to unveil a report soon outlining the benefits of developing and expanding domestic oil reserves, including bumping up the strategic reserve, again, according to the report. Earlier this year amid threats of rolling blackouts, President Bush and U.S. Dept. of Energy's Spencer Abraham repeatedly called for increased domestic drilling. ``We're looking forward to an increase in incentives for domestic oil exploration and production,'' said Marc Duchesne, president of Gulftex Energy Corporation. ``We will be making some dramatic announcements in the very near future regarding the acquisition of large oil and gas properties in the United States. Stay tuned.'' Gulftex Energy Corporation is an integrated petroleum company involved in exploration and production, transportation, refining, and retail marketing. The Company develops and manages oil and gas fields, focusing on New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Kentucky plus onshore United States Gulf Coast and the Gulf of Mexico, including offshore. The Company is also involved in pipeline transportation, oil & refined products trading & shipping. IMPORTANT NOTICE: Certain matters discussed within this press release are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Although Gulftex believes the expectations reflected in such forward-looking statements are based on reasonable assumptions, it can give no assurance that its expectations will be attained. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from expectations include financial performance, oil and gas prices, drilling program results, drilling results, regulatory changes, changes in local or national economic conditions and other risks detailed from time to time in the Company's reports filed with the SEC, including quarterly reports on Form 10-Q, reports on Form 8-K and annual reports on Form 10-K. www.gulftexenergy.com SOURCE: Gulftex Energy Corporation VITAL STATISTICS Exchange: OTC BB: (GTXE) 52 Week Low - High: $.79 - $4.25 Volume (Avg. Daily) 10,000 Recent Close $0.79 Float 735,000 Shares Outstanding: 27,459,000 Market Cap: $21,692,610 Corporate Web site click here Click here for GTXE quotes & news [Image]2001 (4 mos) Income Statement Data ( [Image] ,000) Operating revenues $9,120 Operating income $2,454 Net income $677 Total current assets $14,179 Property and equipment, net $25,261 Total assets $48,368 Total liabilities $26,614 Shareholders' equity $21,755 Operating income return on average PP&E 10.0% [Image]Company Overview [Image] Gulftex Energy Corporation is an integrated petroleum company involved in exploration and production, transportation, refining, and retail marketing. The Company develops and manages oil and gas fields, focusing on the Permian Basin in New Mexico and Texas, onshore United States Gulf Coast, and the Gulf of Mexico. The Company is also involved in pipeline transportation, oil & refined products trading, shipping and futures. [Image]In Business, It's Position, Position, [Image] Position Gulftex Energy Corporation is optimally positioned in the global energy markets. Our customers, partners and shareholders benefit from a full range of products and services based on world-class research and investment expertise. Our size, and the breath of skills we can mobilize through our divisions, allows us to optimize commercial activities with the truly individual solutions they demand. Each project has specific needs and to address them we have created dedicated teams. The group allows us to uniquely leverage both financial and technical know-how to the benefit of our shareholders, employees, partners and communities alike, combined with our unique cost structure allows us to develop properties faster and far cheaper than any competitor. [Image]Company Mission [Image] Initially, to position ourselves to be accepted and listed onto the NYSE within 12 months. This coincides with our vision is to be "highly regarded and respected from our peers," which means: Employees are proud of their success as a team; customers, suppliers and governments prefer us, competitors respect us, communities welcome us and investors are eager to invest in us. Our steadfast pursuit of winning is embodied in our primary objective -- to exceed the performance of our strongest competitors by achieving better stockholder returns for the period 2001 through 2006. To achieve this goal, we will grow earnings faster then our competitor's while maintaining a competitive return on capital employed.We are proud to be a Texas Energy Corporation providing energy products vital to the growth of the world's economies. Our mission is to create superior value to our stockholders, our customers and our employees. [Image]Contact [Image] Headquarters: Gulftex Energy Corporation Four Oaks Place 1330 Post Oak Blvd. Suite 1600 Houston, TX 77056 Phone: 1.713.513.7125 Investor Relations: Paul Lemmon email: plemmon at gulftexenergy.com Office: 1.506 455 7972 ----------------------------------------------------- Safe Harbor Statement: Statements contained in this document, including those pertaining to estimates and related plans other than statements of historical fact, are forward-looking statements subject to a number of uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from statements made. Disclaimer: StockUpTicks.com is a property of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (MP). The information, opinions and analysis contained herein are based on sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. MP is being paid 40,000 shares of GTXE by Gulftex Energy Inc. for distribution of this report and ongoing advertising services. The compensation received by MP for producing this newsletter constitutes a conflict of interest as to MP’s ability to remain objective in its communication regarding the subject company. Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. MP is not an investment advisor and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. Information contained herein contains forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which will affect the results. The opinions contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to change without notice. MP and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated. Safe Harbor Statement: This profile is neither an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any securities mentioned. While the publisher believes all sources of information to be factual and reliable, in no way does it represent or guarantee the accuracy thereof, nor the statements made herein and has no independent verification of the facts, assumptions and estimates contained in this newsletter. "Safe Harbor'' Statement under the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995: Certain statements contained are "forward- looking statements'' within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, including without limitation, the Company's industry position, financial condition and structure. Such forward-looking statements are subject to risks, uncertainties and other factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from future results expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements. Investors are cautioned that any forward-looking statements are not guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties and that actual results may differ materially from those contemplated by such forward-looking statements. Such risks include, without limitation, risks associated with the Company not being able to successfully implement its new strategies, the risk that new acquisitions, if any, will not be successfully integrated into the Company, the seasonality of the Company's sales, the Company's competition, the Company's dependence on supplier relationships and risks related to the Company's borrowings. ---------------------------------------- For More Information or to be featured in our publication reaching over 1,000,000 investors contact us at info at stockupticks.com [Image][Image] [Image] [Image] © Stockupticks 2001, All rights reserved [Image] --- You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 23545 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Rene.Aube at agr.gouv.qc.ca Fri Nov 9 16:09:32 2001 From: Rene.Aube at agr.gouv.qc.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Aub=E9_Ren=E9?=) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 19:09:32 -0500 Subject: VERY URGENT ..... Message-ID: <6955042E76FBD31190EC00508B6C665A04017461@QUBC1-NTCOUP2.mapaq.gouv.qc.ca> What does that means ? Thank you ! René . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 694 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stevet at sendon.net Fri Nov 9 11:20:50 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 19:20:50 +0000 Subject: US psyops uses Napster to steal music for broadcast References: <3BEC16FC.EE964815@hq.org> Message-ID: <200111091952.TAA23755@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Alfred Qaeda (alqaeda at hq.org): > "He [Sgt in 4th psyops group] has downloaded hundreds more tunes from > Internet sites that specialize in Afghan music." Was he downloading from Napster while he was on duty, or when he was off-duty? > ---- > No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as > citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. > This is one nation under God. -GW Bush Hey, George! You don't run the only nation in the universe, you know. I got _my_ sights set on this quiet bit of space in a remote galactic cluster. Tell your minions to keep their dirty little probes outta my space. Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From drevil at sidereal.kz Fri Nov 9 12:41:48 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 9 Nov 2001 20:41:48 -0000 Subject: A Simple Plan ( Re: explosives ) In-Reply-To: <3BEC3FE5.A7A89FDF@lsil.com> (mmotyka@lsil.com) References: <3BEC3FE5.A7A89FDF@lsil.com> Message-ID: <20011109204148.32601.qmail@sidereal.kz> > >From: "coretta fontenot" > >How can I make an explosive? its cause that's my science project > > > It's a fairly simple process really. I have an even simpler process: 1. Go to the supermarket. You will need the following it: Five large cans of refried beans, a piece of cheesecloth, and a cigarette lighter or some long matches. 2. Eat the beans. All of them. 3. After a sufficient quantity of explosive gas has formed, moisten the cheesecloth. 4. Remove your outer and underwear. 5. Lay on your back, and drape the wet cheesecloth (don't forget, it needs to be wet!) in such a way as to protect yourself from fiery harm. With the other hand, hold the lighter and ignite the gas as you release it. 6. You have created an explosion! The Cypherpunks is always a helpful list! From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Nov 9 20:56:08 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 20:56:08 -0800 Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BEC42E8.8781.137698@localhost> -- James A. Donald: > > > If the anthrax attack is internal, then [the FBI] are > > > in charge and they get to spy on all us right wing > > > extremist hate groups. On 9 Nov 2001, at 11:30, measl at mfn.org wrote: > I may be a hate group, but I am NOT a _right wing_ hate > group. For the mentally slow, I guess I will have to explain my little joke, thereby spoiling it. Obviously, members of right wing extremist hate groups do not think of themselves or their organizations as right wing, but as centrist or moderate left, nor as hate groups, but as nationalist. Therefore if someone identifies himself as a member of a right wing extremist hate group, this is intended sarcastically. In context, the implication was that the FBI would call cypherpunks a right wing extremist hate group to justify RICO or sedition charges, and the press would report the matter accordingly. Similarly, if someone thinks that Lenin should have gone right ahead with war communism, that Stalin was too soft on the kulaks, and that Pol Pot's economic program would have worked just fine if it had not been sabotaged by the CIA, he does not call himself, or think of himself, as a communist totalitarian extremist, but as an advocate of economic democracy. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 9Ik2FjgCHZhqotwiWNE+RxVjwUayQJtrS5Si17gJ 4C3BriA+Vwcc4ajRZlPcSCwZpi9Q3VJ9E5Bp3K844 From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Nov 9 21:01:28 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 21:01:28 -0800 Subject: Cash - egold co-op In-Reply-To: <200111072105.fA7L5Kd61575@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3BEC4428.5389.185866@localhost> -- On 7 Nov 2001, at 13:05, mean-green at hushmail.com wrote: > I'd like to invite those with an interest in egold (and > other metal backed ecurrencies) to contact me. If there is > sufficent interest I'd like to kick off a cash-egold co-op > to provide a introduction agency for these activities. I'll > be at the Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting this Saturday ready > to buy and sell limited amounts of egold. Come bring your > web enabled and configured Sprint PCS phone or laptop with > wireless link. If you wish to buy or sell more than a few > hundred dollars please contact me by Friday. Sprint phones cannot usefully access normal web sites, but only websites done in WML or HDML, that is websites specially writtern to work with cellular phones. Is there an e-gold website that works with cellular phones? --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG wU8Gx16AQ3IRPd2tzxYIhbVUSwcvR603hWZ1kip0 4EW1iWTH8eX6xKcWPvm64GppE+fB4rhB78Azk32kI From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 19:09:24 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 21:09:24 -0600 Subject: Combination locks, compelled disclosure, testimonial Message-ID: To add to previous case clips/discussions on this topic. 5th Circuit: (see opinion for footnotes) http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/5th/0051241cr0.htm "The Fifth Amendment right to counsel arises when, as here, an individual is subject to custodial interrogation."(4) The government does not dispute that Green was in custody when he identified the briefcase and safe and unlocked the combination locks on each, after having been transported by ATF agents to his residence and led around in the execution of the search warrant.(5) The government also does not dispute, although it does not explicitly concede the point, that the ATF agents' actions in taking Green to his residence and telling him to assist the agents in executing the search warrant and show them any firearms in the residence was interrogation likely to elicit an incriminating response.(6) Green's actions in disclosing that there were firearms in the residence, showing the agents where the firearms were located, and opening the briefcase and safe were all made in response to queries from ATF agents after he had invoked his right to counsel. This was custodial interrogation. ... On appeal, the government mentions its argument made before the district court that, although Green's oral statements may have been elicited during custodial interrogation in violation of his Fifth Amendment right to counsel, Green's acts of opening the combination locks were non-testimonial. This argument is without merit. Supreme Court precedent forecloses any argument that Green's directing the agents to the two cases containing firearms and opening the combination locks were not testimonial acts. In Doe v. United States,(9) the majority implicitly held that this precise behavior was testimonial communication so expressing the defendant's mind as to constitute compelled self-incriminatory statements.(10) There is no serious question but that Green's actions in disclosing the locations and opening the combination locks of the cases containing firearms were testimonial and communicative in nature.(11) These compelled acts disclosed Green's knowledge of the presence of firearms in these cases and of the means of opening these cases.(12) The ATF agents elicited these testimonial acts in violation of Green's Fifth Amendment right to counsel, and their admission at trial was reversible error. [...] ~Aimee From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 9 19:26:07 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 21:26:07 -0600 Subject: New Form of Matter or Energy Suspected in Neutrino Trial (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3BEC9E4F.9E5E1B99@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64283-2001Nov8.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From superfl at ozemail.com.au Fri Nov 9 22:22:16 2001 From: superfl at ozemail.com.au (superfl at ozemail.com.au) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 22:22:16 Subject: Thes Hoes sure Can Blow Message-ID: <185.593683.19402@ozemail.com.au> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3237 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Rene.Aube at agr.gouv.qc.ca Fri Nov 9 19:29:33 2001 From: Rene.Aube at agr.gouv.qc.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Aub=E9_Ren=E9?=) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 22:29:33 -0500 Subject: VERY URGENT ..... Message-ID: <6955042E76FBD31190EC00508B6C665A018C6A16@QUBC1-NTCOUP2.mapaq.gouv.qc.ca> What do you know about that ? ...... Thank you , René . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 708 bytes Desc: not available URL: From huge at mail.huge-mail.com Fri Nov 9 23:09:25 2001 From: huge at mail.huge-mail.com (Huge Mail) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 23:09:25 -0800 Subject: Residart, your dream home @ Batroun, Lebanon Message-ID: <200111092110.NAA15938@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2837 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: onthenet.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2539 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at algroup.co.uk Fri Nov 9 15:09:33 2001 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 23:09:33 +0000 Subject: [Meetingpunks-planners] SF Bay Area Cypherpunks, November 10, 2001, San Francisco References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011109115246.03043bf0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3BEC622D.FBFF0DB4@algroup.co.uk> Bill Stewart wrote: > Dave Del Torto will be presenting current work for the CryptoRights Foundation, > including a description of the upcoming meeting in with European developers. Oh? Gonna let the Europeans in on the secret? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From topica at eurosport.com Sat Nov 10 00:21:29 2001 From: topica at eurosport.com (topica at eurosport.com) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:21:29 Subject: as seen on national TV Message-ID: <200111100723.BAA13310@einstein.ssz.com> In todays market success requires a different approach. I'm not a gambler or a risk taker, I lost a lot of money in the market and I'm so happy that I didn't let this opportunity pass me by. You already own a computer and have an internet connection. While you are online you may as well make some money right? This program really works, and while it takes some persistence anyone can do this! You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details; is there a catch; NO, there is no catch, just send your emails and be on your way to financial freedom. AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV : ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! =============================================== Before you say ''Bull'' , please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below , to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. One day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $768,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything . But like most of the people I was also a little skeptical and little worried about the legal aspect of it. So I checked it out with the U.S. Postal Service (1-800- 725 2161 = 24 hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed Legal ! I am now loving it !" Richard Templeton, Dallas, Texas. ---------------------------------------------------------------- More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ******* $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $100,000 every 4 to 5 months legally, easily and comfortably, please read the following...then READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN and follow the simple instructions ! DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED ! The sooner you do it, the faster you start making money !!! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. **** IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY ! ========================================================= **** Take this entire letter ( with the modified list of names) and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. **** To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================ let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. (there are over 170 million people on the internet worldwide and about 30,000 more new customers signs up everyday). THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500+ 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET =================================================== Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ___________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS ___________________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in atleast 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ============================================== REPORT # 1 : "HOW TO MAKE$250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" Order Report # 1 from: DataTech Industries 59 Corliss Crescent Winnipeg, MB, Canada R2C 4S6 __________________________________________________ REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' Order Report # 2 from : JF ENTERPRISES 356 Arthur Street Suite 2 E Freeport Harbor, NY 11520-5636 __________________________________________________ REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' Order Report # 3 from: Wesco Information & Distribution 1017 Ash Ave Cottage Grove, Oregon 97424 U.S.A. __________________________________________________ REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order Report # 4 from: P.S. MUSIC ENT. 34 MORGAN ST. NEW ROCHELLE, NY 10805-1225 U.S.A. ___________________________________________________ REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order Report # 5 from: Maria Z. BENITO'S 24 DIVISION ST. NEW ROCHELLE, NY 10801 U.S.A. ___________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your sucess: *** If you do not receive atleast 15 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. Your target should be to receive atleast 20 orders for Report # 1 within 2 - 3 weeks of your mailing to be on the safe side. Because some people will do nothing after they sent you $5 for Report # 1 due to lack of enthusiasm or lack of desire to become a millionaire by end of 2000. We suggest you continue sending e-mails until you have attained the basic goal. *** After you have received 15 - 20 orders for Report # 1, then 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive atleast 100 orders or more for Report # 2. If you did not, continue sending mails until you do. *** Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ______________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: "" You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money ion the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ************** MORE TESTIMONIALS **************** '' My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it would'nt work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D. , Chicago, Illinois ------------------------------------------------------------ '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to atleast get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ----------------------------------------------------------- '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ---------------------------------------------------- ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301. per Section 301, Pragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply with the word Remove in the subject line. This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washigton, State of California, State of Conneticut, State of Delaware, or the Country of Australia. Screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be considered SPAM as long as we include a valid return address and the way to be removed. E N D ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If this message has reached you in error and you wish to be removed from our mailing list please reply to mailto:yesterday1010 at excite.ca?subject=remove Please note that a automated computer receives the "remove" requests and processes the requests. Slander and profanity in your removes will not be read by humans...only by a computer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 10 00:55:34 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:55:34 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109123407.046523c0@bivens.parrhesia.com> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011110004839.032d5d90@idiom.com> At 01:12 PM 11/09/2001 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: >At 01:10 AM 11/9/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: >>[...] >>A few other irrelevant points have been made. Given that ID is not >>perfectly reliable, do we need to tattoo numbers on people's forearms? >>This is the fallacy of perfection. ID can be combined with a simple >>thumbprint for biometric identification (already widely used for cashing >>checks) and you will raise the cost of forgery considerably. > >Bullshit. There's no real-time on-line database of ordinary >citizen fingerprints available to match versus ID cards, >even if the cards (which don't exist and haven't been issued) were available. They require the forger to have access to the format used by the fingerprint storage system, not that that's _too_ hard. They also require that a minimum-wage security guard be able to do fingerprint matching, which says that the system needs to be automated and somewhat error-tolerant. Besides, run this sort of scam on the public for very long, and you *will* have a database of fingerprints - not hard to put on line. The main thing it accomplishes is that it somewhat reduces theft of ID cards, and forces people who lose their Internal Passport to keep getting new ones with their own fingerprints or use better fake documentation when they reapply. >The "ID card" fairy tale still loses. From ezmeer_w at hotmail.com Fri Nov 9 16:50:34 2001 From: ezmeer_w at hotmail.com (=?UNKNOWN?B?6eLg7A==?=) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 02:50:34 +0200 (IST) Subject: =?UNKNOWN?B?7uT06+Qg4ef54eXw5fog5Ojs9OXw6e0=?= Message-ID: <"18161.237205.11851965 cypherpunks"@toad.com> ����� �������� ����������! �� ����� �����! ������� ������� ������ �� ����� �������� ���������� � 50%-80%. ������ :227348 057 From selfhelpgroup2034 at nettaxi.com Fri Nov 9 18:28:32 2001 From: selfhelpgroup2034 at nettaxi.com (Selfhelpgroup) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 07:58:32 +0530 Subject: Drug deaddiction using herbal medicines. Message-ID: <200111100338.TAA32516@taxismtp2.alchemyfx.com> Respected Sir/Madam, For drug deaddiction, herbal medicine is available. With regards, Selfhelpgroup Please visit our web site.. http://www.selfhelpgroup.inbox.as Remember: "Coming together is beginning, staying together is progress and working together is success." From selfhelpgroup2034 at nettaxi.com Fri Nov 9 18:28:35 2001 From: selfhelpgroup2034 at nettaxi.com (Selfhelpgroup) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 07:58:35 +0530 Subject: Drug deaddiction using herbal medicines. Message-ID: <200111171033.CAA06194@taxismtp1.alchemyfx.com> Respected Sir/Madam, For drug deaddiction, herbal medicine is available. With regards, Selfhelpgroup Please visit our web site.. http://www.selfhelpgroup.inbox.as Remember: "Coming together is beginning, staying together is progress and working together is success." From selfhelpgroup2034 at nettaxi.com Fri Nov 9 18:28:36 2001 From: selfhelpgroup2034 at nettaxi.com (Selfhelpgroup) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 07:58:36 +0530 Subject: Drug deaddiction using herbal medicines. Message-ID: <200111171033.CAA06195@taxismtp1.alchemyfx.com> Respected Sir/Madam, For drug deaddiction, herbal medicine is available. With regards, Selfhelpgroup Please visit our web site.. http://www.selfhelpgroup.inbox.as Remember: "Coming together is beginning, staying together is progress and working together is success." From selfhelpgroup2034 at nettaxi.com Fri Nov 9 18:28:36 2001 From: selfhelpgroup2034 at nettaxi.com (Selfhelpgroup) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 07:58:36 +0530 Subject: Drug deaddiction using herbal medicines. Message-ID: <200111100338.TAA32512@taxismtp2.alchemyfx.com> Respected Sir/Madam, For drug deaddiction, herbal medicine is available. With regards, Selfhelpgroup Please visit our web site.. http://www.selfhelpgroup.inbox.as Remember: "Coming together is beginning, staying together is progress and working together is success." From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 10 08:02:24 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:02:24 -0800 Subject: FC: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying In-Reply-To: <0A4AB32A-D0D6-11D5-8FCC-0050E439C473@got.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011103131409.038ad260@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011103221424.038c6d58@pop3.lvcm.com> [Sorry for the long delay in posting this. It was accidentally left queued in my Out box.] At 07:42 PM 11/3/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote: >On Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 07:02 PM, Steve Schear wrote: > >>At 01:20 PM 11/3/2001 -0500, you wrote: >> >> >>>http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/03/1813233 >>> >>> Military Bars Green Party Leader from Flying >>> posted by declan on Saturday November 03, @12:36PM >>> from the airports-are-now-a-no-speech-zone dept. >> >>If the information provided in the article and your interview is >>reasonably accurate I suggest the Green Party, which is fairly popular in >>Maine, and others who oppose this sort of McCarthyesque law enforcement >>take direct action against them. By that I mean they identify the >>"thugs", including towns and photos, and invite the opposition to shun >>them in every legal way possible (e.g., denying them service at >>restaurants, shops, service stations, etc.) > >This terrible situation shows what happens when the Government--cops, >soldiers, agencies--have control over who is allowed to fly. > >In the older system, general security was NOT tied to ID. No ID, no >tickets. The pressure exerted on this Green Party woman could not have >been applied as easily. > >That this woman was obviously--if we are to believe what has been >reported--singled out for harassment is a sign of what's to come. Consider >the possibilities: > >-- people like Cypherpunks put on a "watch list" and similarly harassed >and ultimately blacklisted > >-- journalists whose very jobs depend on airline travel may find >themselves less willing to criticize government, lest they be added to the >blacklist. > >-- any person on the outs with government may find himself added to the >blacklist > >It really is no business of government to know the identities of those >whose bags/etc. they are checking. Having government able to single out >some travellers for special processing is a recipe for this kind of mischief. > >BTW, the _wrong_ tack to take would be some argument about a "right to >travel," some over-ruling of Southwest's or United's right to pick its >customers as it wishes. The preferred approach should be to have no ID at >the _security_ checkpoint and to not have any laws requiring ID tied to >tickets. In other words, the situation as of a few years ago. Then that >Green woman would a) not have been stopped in the first place, and b) >would have been able to hop any other flight without anyone being the wiser. Much of this is a result of too much Federal authority, almost all of it based on "creative" interpretations of the Commerce Clause. Has the FAA's constitutional authority ever been challenged? Those that oppose these travel restrictions need an effective alternative to airlines. Something along the lines of a VTOL air taxi could replace some short haul airport traffic. Ideally these taxis would be entirely automated, accept cash and keep no record on customers. Its too bad companies like SoloTrek http://www.solotrek.com/mjet/index1.html and Moller http://www.moller.com/ haven't been able to "get off the ground" ;-) steve From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 10 07:26:51 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 09:26:51 -0600 Subject: bin Laden claims he has nuclear weapons - paper Message-ID: <3BED473B.C599E94C@ssz.com> http://in.news.yahoo.com/011109/64/18kh7.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mattd at useoz.com Fri Nov 9 14:52:47 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 09:52:47 +1100 Subject: 1st ve vill torture you,then burn down your home town Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011110094852.00a55010@pop.useoz.com> When your torture and mass deportation policies inspire resistance then reprisals for assasinations are inevitable. Subject: french resistance Martyred Village : Commemorating the 1944 Massacre at Oradour-Sur-Glane by Sarah Farmer Paperback - 300 pages (July 2000) Univ California Press; ISBN: 0520224833 Not the Germans Alone : A Son's Search for the Truth of Vichy by Isaac Levendel, Robert O. Paxton (Preface) Hardcover - 280 pages (June 1999) Northwestern Univ Pr; ISBN: 0810116634 Outwitting the Gestapo by Lucie Aubrac, Konrad Bieber (Translator), Betsy Wing (Translator) Usually ships promptly. This book is the basis for the excellent French film, Lucie Aubrac. Paperback (November 1994) Univ of Nebraska Pr; ISBN: 0803259239 Resistance, Rebellion, and Death by Albert Camus Usually ships promptly. Paperback Reissue edition (September 1995) Vintage Books; ISBN: 0679764011 Sisters in the Resistance : How Women Fought to Free France, 1940-1945 by Margaret Collins Weitz Usually ships promptly. Paperback - 352 pages (March 1998) John Wiley & Sons; ISBN: 0471196983 Sisterhood of Spies : The Women of the OSS by Elizabeth P. McIntosh Usually ships promptly. Hardcover - 282 pages (May 1998) United States Naval Inst.; ISBN: 1557505985 Also in Paperback Tales of Good and Evil, Help and Harm by Philip Hallie, Doris A. Hallie (Afterword), John J. Compton Usually ships promptly. Paperback - 227 pages (August 1998) Harperperennial Library; ISBN: 0060929014 An account of three ordinary people who made a profound difference in the lives of many. In LEST INNOCENT BLOOD BE SHED, Philip Hallie chronicled the story of the French village of Chambon, whose inhabitants saved 5,000 Jews from certain death during Word War II. In this inspiring sequel, Hallie focuses on the same theme of good in the face of evil and offers an eloquent meditation on morality. This Grim and Savage Game: The OSS and U.S. Covert Operations in World War II by Tom Moon (Introduction) Usually ships promptly. Paperback - 352 pages (June 20, 2000) Da Capo Pr; ISBN: 0306809567 Back to the Fighting Nancy Wake, then 31, became one of 39 women and 430 men in the French Section of the British Special Operations Executive which worked with local resistance groups to sabotage the Germans in the occupied territories. She was trained at a British Ministry of Defense camp in Scotland in survival skills, silent killing, codes and radio operation, night parachuting, plastic explosives, Sten guns, rifles, pistols and grenades. She and the other women recruited by the SOE were officially assigned to the First Aid Nursing Yeomantry and the true nature of their work remained a closely guarded secret until after the war. In February 1944, Nancy Wake and another SOE operative, Major John Farmer, were parachuted into the Auvergne region in central France with orders to locate and organise the bands of Maquis, establish ammunition and arms caches from the nightly parachute drops, and arrange wireless communication with England. Their mission was to organise the Resistance in preparation for the D-Day invasion. The Resistance movement's principal objective was to weaken the German army for a major attack by allied troops. Their targets were German installations, convoys and troops. There were 22,000 German troops in the area and initially 3-4,000 Maquis. Gaspards recruitment work, with the help of Wake, bolstered the numbers to 7,000. Nancy led these men in guerrilla warfare, inflicting severe damage on German troops and facilities. She collected and distributed weapons and ensured that her radio operatives maintained contact with the SOE in Britain. On one occasion Nancy cycled 500 km through several German checkpoints to replace codes her wireless operator had been forced to destroy in a German raid. Without these there would be no fresh orders or drops of weapons and supplies. Of all the amazing things she did during the war, Nancy believes this marathon ride was the most useful. She covered the distance in 71 hours, cycling through countryside and mountains almost non-stop. Her focus was rock steady to the end of her epic journey, when she wept in pain and relief. "I got back and they said, "how are you?" I cried. I couldn't stand up, I couldn't sit down. I couldn't do anything. I just cried." Pitched Battle It was an extremely tough assignment: a near-sleepless life on the move, often hiding in the forests, travelling from group to group to train Maquis, motivate, plan and co-ordinate. She organised parachute drops that occurred four times a week to replenish arms and ammunition. There were numerous violent engagements with the Germans. The countryside was wracked with hostage taking, executions, burnings and reprisals. No sector gave the Reich more cause for fury than Nancys - the Auvergne, the Fortress of France. Methodically the SS laid its plans and prepared to obliterate the group, whose stronghold was the plateau above Chaudes-Aiguwes. Troops were massed in towns all around the plateau, with artillery, mortars, aircraft and mobile guns. In June 1944 22,000 SS troops made their move on the 7,000 Maquis. Through bitter battle and escape, Nancy and her army had cause to be satisfied: 1,400 German troops lay dead on the plateau, 100 of their own men. Nancy continued her war: she personally led a raid on Gestapo headquarters in Montucon, and killed a sentry with her bare hands to keep him from alerting the guard during a raid on a German gun factory. She had to shoot her way out roadblocks; and execute a German female spy. From bounce at fantasy-mail.com Sat Nov 10 02:23:57 2001 From: bounce at fantasy-mail.com (Fresh by Fantasy Mail) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 10:23:57 GMT Subject: Fresh by Fantasy Mail Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8739 bytes Desc: not available URL: From remailer at aarg.net Sat Nov 10 12:00:09 2001 From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 12:00:09 -0800 Subject: "Anti-Terrorist" Exception to Atty-Client Privilege? Message-ID: <6e06fa2bd3465fb81632dd46e30c1bf6@aarg.net> U.S. Defends Monitoring of Lawyer-Suspect Communication By James Vicini Reuters WASHINGTON (Nov. 9) - The U.S. Justice Department defended Friday its rule to listen in on conversations between some inmates and their lawyers to prevent violent and terrorist acts, but a civil liberties group denounced the new policy as a ''police state'' tactic. The rule, signed by Attorney General John Ashcroft and published on Oct. 31, provided for the monitoring of mail and communications with attorneys for as long as a year, as opposed to 120 days previously, and took effect immediately. The eavesdropping would not be surreptitious. The defendant and the attorney must get notice of the government's listening, Ashcroft said. The rule expanded an existing regulation that allows for monitoring of attorney-client communications. Rachel King of the American Civil Liberties Union said the rule set a ''terrifying precedent'' and was ''very scary.'' ''It's nothing short of a police state,'' she added. King, the legislative counsel in the Washington office, said the group would file comments opposing the rule. The National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers said it will challenge the new regulations through all available legal means. ''Rules and codes of professional responsibility are very clear: an attorney cannot communicate with a client when confidentiality is not assured,'' Irwin Schwartz, the group's president, said in a statement. NO EAVESDROPPING WITHOUT COURT ORDER ''The federal government has no business eavesdropping on these conversations, absent a court order,'' he said. In the rule, Ashcroft said, ''Recent terrorist activities perpetrated on U.S. soil demonstrate the need for continuing vigilance in addressing the terrorism and security-related concerns identified by the law enforcement and intelligence communities.'' The rule represented one in a series of steps by Ashcroft in what he has described as an aggressive campaign to prevent future terrorist attacks after the Sept. 11 hijackings of planes that hit the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Ashcroft has vowed to carry out tough new anti-terrorism legislation that Congress approved giving law enforcement officers expanded powers to wiretap phones, monitor Internet traffic and arrest suspects. On Thursday, he announced a ''wartime reorganization'' of the Justice Department to carry out in its ''first and overriding priority'' of defending against terrorist attacks. Justice Department spokeswoman Mindy Tucker defended the rule, saying ''important safeguards'' were in place. She said the team monitoring the communications will have no connection to any ongoing prosecution that involves the inmate. Currently, less than 1/10 of one percent of the federal inmate population is subject to the special administrative measure taken by the U.S. Bureau of Prisons, Tucker said. Ashcroft said the rule would affect only a small portion of the federal inmate population. He said it would affect those inmates for whom the attorney general or the head of a federal law enforcement of intelligence agency has determined there was a substantial risk the communications with others could lead to violence or terrorism. Ashcroft maintained the constitutional rights of the inmates to a lawyer would be protected. ''The attorney-client privilege protects confidential communications regarding legal matters, but the law is clear that there is no protection for communications that are in furtherance of the client's ongoing or contemplated illegal acts,'' he said. REUTERS Reut13:39 11-09-01 From newinternetdom at mail.com Sat Nov 10 12:42:22 2001 From: newinternetdom at mail.com (NewDomainRegistry.net) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:42:22 -0600 Subject: 00:00:01 EST Status: LIVE Message-ID: <200111102042.fAAKgLM26296@ak47.algebra.com> Status Alert: .BIZ is NOW LIVE The new .BIZ domain extension was officially launched today, and new registrations are already on a record-setting pace. Several sites have just made .BIZ available to the general public which means that ordinary internet users can register this exciting new domain without the cumbersome paperwork. One such popular site is: www.NewDomainRegistry.net Brief History Back in November, 2000, ICANN, the regulatory agency which oversees the Internet's Domain Name System, approved seven new domain extensions to meet growing demand from the consumer and business sectors. Since the new extensions were first announced last year, experts have widely expected .BIZ to become the most popular of the new extensions and to eventually supercede .COM. The .BIZ registry will be managed by upstart NeuLevel, in direct competition with the former monopoly of Network Solutions. .BIZ represents the first new generic domain name to be introduced since .COM was first launched in 1984. In the ten year span between 1984 and 1994, less than one million .COM domains were registered in total. Today, the registration total for .BIZ will have already exceeded one million. How times have changed... The Benefits: .BIZ aims to be the quintessential domain choice for all businesses on the Internet. Short for .BUSINESS, the .BIZ domain directly addresses the growing need for new generic domain names to eventually replace .COM as the Internet most widely used domain name. The benefits to go .BIZ are clear: * abundant availability of easy to remember and practical domain names * technically recognized across the Internet's DNS * short and catchy extension * affordable registration fees and simplified registration procedures "Establishing a .biz domain name also will help companies cut through the .com clutter. More than 28 million .com names have already been registered. Since the .com domain covers so many sites serving so many different purposes, it's impossible to know whether a particular .com address represents a bona-fide business. In contrast, .biz means business, period." Chicago Tribune, August 22, 2001 To register a new .BIZ extension, you will simply need to check the availability of your domain name at: www.NewDomainRegistry.net and then register it using the easy 3 step process which takes less than 5 minutes. *************************************************************************** This firm opposes the continued sending of unsolicited email and does not intend to send email to anyone who does not wish to receive their special mailings. As a result, they have retained the services of Auto Email Removal, an independent 3rd party, to administer their list management and removal services (http://www.autoemailremoval.com/cgi-local/remove.pl?email=cypherpunks at algebra.com). This is not unsolicited email. If you do not wish to receive further mailings, please click this link and your removal request will be honored. The removal administrator can then preclude your email address from future mailings. http://www.autoemailremoval.com/cgi-local/remove.pl?email=cypherpunks at algebra.com Auto Email Removal Company. Ref# 011105 *************************************************************************** From ocorrain at esatclear.ie Sat Nov 10 07:16:39 2001 From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiarn=E1n=20=D3=20Corr=E1in=20?=) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 15:16:39 +0000 Subject: bin Laden claims he has nuclear weapons - paper In-Reply-To: <3BED473B.C599E94C@ssz.com> References: <3BED473B.C599E94C@ssz.com> Message-ID: On Saturday 10 November 2001 15:26, Jim Choate wrote: > http://in.news.yahoo.com/011109/64/18kh7.html From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1648000/1648572.stm Osama Bin Laden has told the mass-circulation Dawn newspaper in Pakistan that his al-Qaeda group possesses chemical and nuclear weapons. But, while the English-language newspaper carries a clear message from Bin Laden that he has access to such weapons, he makes no such claim in an Urdu-language version of the interview. -- Tiarnán Ó Corráin Alliance: In international politics, the union of two thieves who have their hands so deeply inserted in each other's pocket that they cannot separately plunder a third. -- Ambrose Bierce From aimee.farr at pobox.com Sat Nov 10 13:29:08 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 15:29:08 -0600 Subject: "Anti-Terrorist" Exception to Atty-Client Privilege? In-Reply-To: <6e06fa2bd3465fb81632dd46e30c1bf6@aarg.net> Message-ID: See United States v. King, 335 F.Supp 523 (1971). See also the original DOJ manual and related amendments. If you can, pick up a copy of Eavesdropping On Trial, '74. It's an insightful and easy read with good historical footnotes. It's an odd book, in that it has gained in relevancy through the years. Originally, Congress was predisposed to outlaw electronic surveillance altogether. Law enforcement fought for decades to get it. Then, we came up with organized crime (some still say they "invented" it). Title III was part of the "law and order" agenda, before we characterized things as "war on." It's effectiveness in regard to organized crime was even questioned, as that was the stated target of Title III. It was the time of COINTELPRO, to give you an idea of the political climate. Most of the questions raised in '74 (soon after the act's '68 passage and state implementation), remain unanswered. This suggests that the Title III scheme itself is flawed. The forward by Sen. Sam J. Ervin, Jr. is worth a frame: ------------------------------------------------------- ''The history of American liberty has been a continuing struggle between the desire for security and the human striving for personal freedom. Too often it appears that the choice is easy -- for example, that the issue of law and order is one of balancing the rights of society against the rights of criminals. But the choice is never as easy as that deceptive formulation suggests. The great challenge of our constitutional system is the continuing reconciliation of these two strong competing interests. Without law there can be no true liberty, but a constant and exclusive preoccupation with security is the death of human liberty. This was recognized by American patriots as long ago as 1775: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." The citizen who truly honors liberty knows that there are no easy choices. The public leader who is true to his obligation to inform and educate the citizenry recognizes that he must shun emotional appeals. It is a great disservice to the public to succumb to the temptation to make issues of crime and liberty a political football. Unfortunately, politicians forever fall victim to the temptation, especially in recent years. ...These issues are too important to be left to the "expert" -- be he a lawyer, legislator, judge, or prosecutor. While the issues are complex, this is no arcane subject which the private citizen can safely leave to others. Few people are neutral about issues such as eavesdropping, but the public is not well served by rhetoric. As difficult as it may be to address the subject fairly, openly, and accurately, to do so is necessary if the public is to be well served. [...] Words to haunt Congress by? Only time will tell. ~Aimee From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 10 17:36:20 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 19:36:20 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | Responsible Wireless Access For Your Access Point Message-ID: <3BEDD614.D70C64D4@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/10/2232245.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. 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Your address was collected as a result of posting to a link, a classified ad to my FFA Page, you have sent me an E-mail recently, or you are on a list that I have purchased. You may remove your E-mail address at no cost to you whatsoever by simply click on Reply button with "Remove" in the subject line. From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 11 10:15:01 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:15:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Shrubs Future, from the Past: Rolling Thunder (fwd) Message-ID: ROLLING THUNDER by Bill Bonner "The bastards have never been bombed like they're going to be bombed this time." Richard M. Nixon Some things just don't work as well as you think they should. Arguing with your wife, for example. Or diet plans. Or hair growth tonic. The rhythm method. Psychotherapy. Momentum investing. Handouts to poor people. Strategic air power. >From the very beginning of aviation, military authorities have had high hopes for the persuasive power of dropping bombs on people. It was assumed that a few tons of high explosives, loosed from a passing airplane, would improve your enemy's behavior. In the first World War, planes were still too callow to allow the weight of serious destruction. But by WWII, planes could get off the ground with enough bombs to really teach someone a lesson...or so it was thought. The Germans thought they could bring about a change of attitude in Britain by sending over the Luftwaffe each night and bombing grocery stores and theatres as well as ammunition dumps. They did change attitudes, but not the way they hoped. Instead of softening up, the Brits turned a hard face...and mobilized for war with greater resolve. When the tide turned in the air, and the god of war floated over to the other side, the British and Americans saw an opportunity for a little attitude adjustment on the continent. They reduced Dresden, Koln, and other German cities to rubble. But a study done after the war showed that even this intense bombing did little to slow the German war machine. Railroads were patched together. Production was shifted from one facility to another. The wheels still turned. Faith in air power remained. Besides, by the 1960s, the analogies of WWII didn't seem to apply - especially to non-industrialized nations with no planes of their own. In the digital mind of U.S. defense secretary McNamara, there was no question about whether or not airpower could do the trick, but what amount of bombing it would take. Robert McNamara made his calculations. He approached the issue as though he were a Fed chief with 650 basis points to work with. How far would he have to go - and at what cost - before the enemy gave up, he wondered? But many people saw the obvious problem. There were few targets in Vietnam against which bombs might be effective. Averill Harriman, returning from a fact- finding mission, warned Kennedy that "we shall replace the French as the colonial force in the area and bleed as the French did." By 1964, Kennedy sensed that the war was a losing proposition. He wanted out...but he also sensed an election coming up. "I can't do it until 1965 - until after I'm re-elected," said the president. It was "no profile in courage," comments Barbara Tuchman in "The March of Folly." Lyndon Johnson also sensed a problem, but believed he could not "lose" Vietnam to the communists. That would be a stain on his presidency, he believed - a stain darker than a Texas tort lawyer's heart. "I am not going to be the first U.S. President to lose a war," he declared. Charles De Gaulle offered his views, if not his help. America was being drawn into the war on the same illusions as the French 10 years before, he said. The military superiority of a modern nation was useless in a backwater like Vietnam, he noted. It was a "a hopeless place to fight..."; a " rotten country" that would likely destroy the U.S. army just as it had the French. Instead of fighting, the only way out was negotiation, he advised. Johnson would have none of it. Undersecretary of State George Ball explained to de Gaulle that "that the U.S. did not believe in negotiating until our position on the battlefield was so strong that our enemies would make concessions." This presumed, of course, that the war would go in their favor. Alas, it did not. "Reports from Saigon told of progressive crumbling, riots, corruption, anti-American sentiment, neutralist movement by the Buddhists," writes Tuchman. "I feel," declared one American official in Saigon, "as though I were on the deck of the Titanic." The Johnson Administration decided to raise the stakes. On March 2nd of 1964, a campaign of bombing named "Rolling Thunder" began. And "by April it was apparent that Rolling Thunder was having no visible effect on the enemy's will to fight," Tuchman writes. "Bombing of the supply trails in Laos had not prevented infiltration; Viet Cong raids showed no signs of faltering." Like another President 36 years later, Johnson decided to bribe as well as bully. More than $1 billion in aid was offered if only North Vietnam would accept U.S. peace terms. But having taken to the air, America found nowhere to set down. Attitudes in North Vietnam hardened under the bombing. Hanoi announced that it would not negotiate until the bombing was stopped. The U.S. said it would not stop bombing until the Viet Cong stopped fighting. Still, people were as optimistic as investors in a bull market. McNamara, toting up his bombs and trying to quantify war, saw nothing but good coming out of it. It was the kind of war America had to learn to fight, he said, "a limited war...the kind of war we'll likely be facing for the next fifty years." And so it was! The thunder continued to roll. And McNamara continued adding up his figures. A CIA study revealed that each $1 of damage caused to the enemy cost the U.S. $9.60. (Probably a bargain compared to the rate of return on bombing in Afghanistan.) By the end of 1967, the Pentagon had dropped over 1.5 million tons of bombs - already more than the U.S. had used in Europe in all of WWII - and the bombing had scarcely begun. McNamara was growing uneasy. He didn't like the numbers. Asked to determine how much damage would have to be inflicted upon Ho Chi Minh's forces to bring him to stop the war, the CIA came up with an alarming answer: There was no level of bombing or naval action that would be "so intolerable that the war had to be stopped." McNamara was a fool. But he was a smart fool. Soon, he had moved on...he resigned from the Pentagon and took his talent for doing dumb things brilliantly to the World Bank. His replacement, Clark Clifford, quickly came to the same conclusion. He saw that "the course we were pursuing was not only endless but hopeless." Johnson, realizing that he had been trapped, withdrew from the race for another term. Vietnam had ruined him. But the bombing continued. Richard Nixon took up the illusion - that increasing the pressure on Ho Chi Minh...with more bombs...would cause the old man to give up. He intensified the bombing attacks and expanded them into Cambodia. Each bomb dropped may be a losing proposition, perhaps he reasoned, but we can make it up on volume! The French continued to offer the same opinion. It was a "hopeless enterprise," said Jean Sainteny to Henry Kissinger. That opinion had spread far and wide. The New York Times labeled Nixon's campaign in Cambodia a "Military Hallucination." In a rare occurrence, the Times was right. Widening the war was an act of folly, opines Barbara Tuchman, "designed to bring down trouble upon the perpetrator...the kind of folly to which governments seem irresistibly drawn as if pulled by a mischievous fate to make the gods laugh." Nixon knew the war was a hopeless cause. He just wanted to bring the North Vietnamese to the bargaining table in order to win a "peace with honor." How could he do it? He stepped up the bombing with his "Christmas bombing" campaign - the heaviest of the entire war. Did Hanoi finally give up? No, Hanoi persevered. Nixon and Kissinger gave up, signing the Geneva Peace Accords on the 27th of January 1973. The U.S. stock market hit a high on almost that very day...and then fell for the next 21 months, losing half its value. As a percentage of GDP, stocks registered a high of about 90% of GDP in 1968. They did not reach that level again until nearly 30 years later. Your editor, Bill Bonner P.S. Writing about the folly of others gives no immunity from foolishness - neither in your editor, nor in Barbara Tuchman. Your editor's foolishness is on display regularly, his wife assures him. Tuchman's can be found in the second paragraph of the first page of her book. Wondering why people do obviously stupid things she becomes delusional: "Why does American business insist on 'growth' when it is demonstrably using up the three basics of life on our planet - land, water and unpolluted air?" Using up the planet's land and water? She almost makes McNamara and Johnson look sensible. From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Sun Nov 11 12:17:01 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:17:01 PST Subject: EMB Corp. - Profile Of The Week! Message-ID: <200111112021.UAA40321@va2-8-12-14.iserver.com> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> NOVEMBER 12, 2001 - THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Dear Investors, We would like to introduce you to EMB Corp. (EMBI - OTC:BB), a financial services holding company which provides a network to mortgage brokers, both retail and wholesale through its wholly owned mortgage companies. As interest rates continue to decline the demand for mortgages and re-financings has skyrocketed. EMB Corp. is projecting $600 million of new business, revenues of approximately $8,000,000 and net profit of $800,000. This comes out to $0.04 cents per share earnings based on approximately 20,000,000 shares issued and outstanding and fully diluted at that time. These projections do not include any future acquisitions the company is looking to pursue. Please read the full profile and disclaimer below. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ABOUT EMB Corp. (EMBI - OTC:BB) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ EMB Corp. is a financial services holding company, which provides a network to mortgage brokers, both retail and wholesale through its wholly owned mortgage companies, currently including American National Mortgage, and First Guaranty Financial Corp. Mortgages originated by its group of companies may be held temporarily for investment, or may be sold to third parties/financial institutions, or may be secured, packaged, and sold as mortgage backed securities. It is also the EMB Corp's intention to provide financing and/or purchase other business that are or can be profitable that may not be related to the mortgage or real estate business, but will enhance shareholder equity. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> - Shares Outstanding: 16,000,000 - Float (Est): 3,600,000 - 52 week High: $0.50 - 52 week Low: $0.001 - Friday's Closing Price: $0.28 - Website: http://www.embcorporation.com - Contact Info: EMB at EMBCorp.net <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MARKETING AND SALES ACTIVITIES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ + Through its well-organized plan for marketing and sales activities the Company has the opportunity to become a key player in the mortgage real estate lending industry. Specific sales and marketing activity include: + Solidifying the Company's mortgage business through geographic market expansions. Initial focus includes growing and expanding targeted markets (mortgage brokers, real estate brokers and credit unions) in already established geographic areas of the state of California and subsequently the nation. + To solidify newly initiated commercial mortgage business. + To subsequently begin operations on the Company's title insurance business for closings related to mortgage products. + To acquire additional mortgage-related companies that will improve and enhance the Company's revenues over the long range. + To also acquire additional ancillary financial services companies that can improve and enhance the Company's revenues. + To invest in other financial services companies that will enhance the shareholder equity of the company. <><><><><><><><><> AD <><><><><><><><><><> StreetInsider.com - Get Inside Wall Street! Access real-time, market moving news and rumors for only $29.99 per month. Similar services can cost you hundreds per month. 2 week free trial is available. http://www.streetinsider.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MARKET ANALYSIS & SUMMARY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In a recent Louis Rukeyser’s Wall $treet Week news article, he writes about three pivotal industries that lie squarely in the path of tens of millions of increasingly affluent customers. The next wave of leading industries and players will be healthcare, financial-services, and technology stocks... companies emerging as the new Pfizer’s, Merrill Lynches, and Microsoft’s of the world. He went on to say: Financial services have come a long way since the days of the haughty loan officer, arrogant stockbrokers and dour bankers in pinstriped suits. Years of economic growth, and unprecedented bull market and democratization of all aspects of finance have reversed Wall Street’s traditional balance of power. For the first time in history, banks, insurance companies and brokerages are merging into one-stop financial shops. It is the intent of the management team of EMB to capitalize on the present market conditions surrounding financial-services, using new technology, and with these changes hopefully the company could show increased revenues and profits for the benefit of the shareholders, which is priority number one for the new management of EMB Corp.. >>===================================>> DISCLAIMER Wallstreet Universe is an independent electronic publication providing information on selected companies. All statements and expressions are the opinion of Wallstreet Universe and are not meant to be either investment advice or a solicitation or recommendation to buy, sell, or hold securities. Investing in micro-cap securities is highly speculative and carries an extremely high degree of risk. Wallstreet Universe is not a registered investment advisor or a broker dealer. It is possible that an investor's investment may be lost or impaired due to the speculative nature of the companies profiled. This report relies on information provided by the featured Companies and/or third parties. While Wallstreet Universe believes its sources to be reliable, we make no representation or warranty as to the accuracy of the information provided. Readers should not rely solely on the information contained in this publication, but should consult with their own independent tax, business and financial advisors with respect to any investment opportunity, including any contemplated investment in the advertised Company. Factual statements in this publication are made as of the date stated and are subject to change without notice. Wallstreet Universe is not responsible for any claims made by the Company. We have prepared this report, drawing upon a range of public news, the company's website and information from sources in the industry, as well as data and opinions provided by the company. Wallstreet Universe has not independently verified the Company's representations. Any opinions expressed in this report are statements of judgment as of the date of publication. We urge readers to carefully verify all presentations within the report independently. The receipt of this publication shall not create, under any circumstances, any implication that there has been no change in the affairs of the company profiled since the date of review. This advertisement does not provide an analysis of the Company's financial position. Wallstreet Universe was paid up to $2000 for this report by The Street Insider. Furthermore, associates of Wallstreet Universe may have stock positions on profiled companies from time to time. We may profit in the event the shares of the Company profiled by us increase in value. These positions may be liquidated from time to time even after we have made positive comments regarding the Company. The receipt of this information constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions. SAFE HARBOR FOR FORWARD-LOOKING STATEMENTS: Except for historical information contained herein, the statements on this website and newsletter are forward-looking statements that are made pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Reform Act of 1995. Forward-looking statements involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties, which may cause a company's actual results in the future periods to differ materially from forecasted results. These risks and uncertainties include, among other things, product price volatility, product demand, market competition and risk inherent in the companies operations. You can identify these statements by the fact that they do not relate strictly to historical or current facts. They use words such as "anticipate," "estimate," "expect," "project," "intend," "plan," "anticipate," "guess," "think," "hear," "suggest," "believe" and other words and terms of similar meaning in connection with any discussion of future operating or financial performance. >>===================================================>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.tbs.37kh From freematt at coil.com Sun Nov 11 10:07:29 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 13:07:29 -0500 Subject: Info Request: People Banned from Flights Based on Reading Material Message-ID: [Please forward to relevant lists and forums] The American Booksellers Foundation has asked me for examples of individuals being detained or escorted off planes, airports or other facilities based on their reading material. They have expressed an interest in protecting our choice of reading material and want to take the appropriate action. Please send any and all examples of people being harassed, banned,asked to leave,confiscation of the reading material- Anything- to me and I'll send it to them and share the information with all of you. Thanks- Regards, Matt Gaylor- ps I already have the Philadelphia example of "Hayduke Lives! by Edward Abbey" ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From patty_822 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 11 11:48:08 2001 From: patty_822 at yahoo.com (Patty) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 14:48:08 -0500 Subject: Your Classified Ad Message-ID: <1958611-220011101119488760@yahoo.com> If you are like me, you probably are looking for a business that is simple and has no risk. My husband and I have tried many advertising systems and on-line businesses and had little success until we found an amazing catalog business. It was very easy for us to get started because the cost was $29 and we had 120 days risk-free 100% money back guaranteed refund if we didn't make any money within the first month or two. What we got for that small investment was hundreds of dollars of free Internet marketing training! When I found out that some of the biggest Internet players were also doing this business like crazy, we knew we had finally found the right business. These are the same guys that build web sites for some of the top Fortune 500 companies and they truly know how to Market online as well as make money with the Internet. Because we knew that 99% of North Americans order from catalogs, this business really interested us. The company's reorder rates are consistently documented at 95% or better every year for over 16 years! We knew that the business we build today would keep paying us over and over again... Take a couple of minutes and look at our site http://www.noriskcatalogbiz.com/ws/pp.htm and see if this is the system you've been looking for. Just copy and paste into your url. If you are failing in the other programs you are currently doing, you will quickly learn the real secrets to online success with a tremendous training system free! I look forward to hearing from you and having you on our TEAM! This email is sent in compliance with strict anti-abuse and NO SPAM regulations. Your address was collected as a result of posting to a link, a classified ad to my FFA Page, you have sent me an E-mail recently, or you are on a list that I have purchased. You may remove your E-mail address at no cost to you whatsoever by simply click on Reply button with "Remove" in the subject line. From mixter at 2xs.co.il Sun Nov 11 06:35:03 2001 From: mixter at 2xs.co.il (mixter at 2xs.co.il) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:35:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: "Passive Blackmail" - Does this kind of application exist? In-Reply-To: <20011111110101.60321.qmail@weltregierung.koeln.ccc.de> Message-ID: I've been thinking about a certain kind of distributed application involving cryptography, and I wondered if anything like this exists, and if not, at least any accepted cryptographic method for doing this: Suppose a scenario in which an individal has knowledge or substantial suspicion that another person, group, or state are interested in letting him have an accident or otherwise making him disappear. Now, that individual could have generally important information, evidence about exactly that plot, or other evidence or black-mail material against those people who potentially harbor these intentions against him. In this scenario, the kind of application I'm thinking of would allow that individual to record all of his important information, encrypt it, and post multiple copies to a decentralized network of cyberspace sites, ideally anonymously (perhaps like freenet, with the big problem that freenet and similar solutions provide no guarantee for that information to remain there indefinitely). Now the key part which is somewhat harder: it should only be possible to decrypt that information for any third party in the case anything really happens to that individual (prison, death, disappearance, ...). There must be a system in which the individual must regularly visit sites on a decentralized network and perform some (pseudonymous) action of self-authentication that proves he's still there, and that therefore the decryption key should not yet be released. I presume that the most viable route to do this would be via decentralized escrow of the encryption key for the information, i.e. you split the key in three parts and provide multiple copies of each key to different decentralized nodes or parties, while you need to make sure that no party ever gets all three parts of the key. Only if you don't perform a regular authentication (because you disappeared), any three parties who together have your key will receive information about each other, reassemble the key, fetch your decentrally stored ciphertext and decrypt it, then posting it on the web or sending it to the media or friends, or whatever. I admit this system is a little complicated, but I think it would be the only viable method of making sure information in this scenario is kept intact, and at the same time only available when that individual owning the information stops regularly affirming that he is still alive. This may sound a bit paranoid at first, but it is a real important application for which many people could have a real interest, which could even help individuals provide some incentive for criminal/ intelligence/whatever groups to leave them alone, a "Passive Blackmail", if you want. Taking a look at recent history, the disappearing or otherwise strange death of hackers and other geeks and politically active figures isn't a very rare occurrence... So thanks in advance for any information you might have about this. -- --------------------------- Mixter Development/Consulting 2xs LTD. - http://2xss.com Tel: +972-9-9519980 Fax: +972-9-9519982 Mail: mixter at 2xss.com From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sun Nov 11 15:44:24 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:44:24 -0800 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: <200111112344.fABNiOL25029@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 07:41 PM 11/11/2001 +0100, Anonymous wrote: > Looks like the announcement of the new use of sedition laws sure put a damper on the cypherpunks list, eh? No matter how bad the civil liberties crackdown in a democracy eventually citizens and their servants tire of the costs and inconvenience. Perhaps some are have decided to lay low and wait for the chance to act rather than talk. From schear at lvcm.com Sun Nov 11 15:49:54 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:49:54 -0800 Subject: Cash - egold co-op In-Reply-To: <3BEC4428.5389.185866@localhost> References: <200111072105.fA7L5Kd61575@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011111154919.052e1468@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:01 PM 11/9/2001 -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- >On 7 Nov 2001, at 13:05, mean-green at hushmail.com wrote: > > I'd like to invite those with an interest in egold (and > > other metal backed ecurrencies) to contact me. If there is > > sufficent interest I'd like to kick off a cash-egold co-op > > to provide a introduction agency for these activities. I'll > > be at the Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting this Saturday ready > > to buy and sell limited amounts of egold. Come bring your > > web enabled and configured Sprint PCS phone or laptop with > > wireless link. If you wish to buy or sell more than a few > > hundred dollars please contact me by Friday. > >Sprint phones cannot usefully access normal web sites, but >only websites done in WML or HDML, that is websites specially >writtern to work with cellular phones. > >Is there an e-gold website that works with cellular phones? http://pcs.e-gold.com steve From jae at jerhard.org Sun Nov 11 08:10:39 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:10:39 +0100 Subject: Ashcroft prepares for martial law In-Reply-To: <200110292350.f9TNoBa12729@mailserver1.hushmail.com> (keyser-soze@hushmail.com) References: <200110292350.f9TNoBa12729@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "keyser-soze" == keyser-soze writes: keysersoze> Since Congress gave him virtually everything he asked keysersoze> for the next step is martial law, though how that keysersoze> might help uncover any new plots is beyond me. Since Congress gave him virtually everything he asked for... what would he need martial law for? A. he's got everything he wants (and if he wants more, he'll get it... a few more anthrax letters will do the trick). B. martial law would be much too obvious, to openly hostile. People like Asscruft (love the term!) thrive on "under the covers" -> "nobody realizes anything til it's too late". Bye, J -- J|rgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) My WebHome: http://jerhard.org Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est. -- Augustinus [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From happy at mail4.melad.jp Sun Nov 11 00:46:53 2001 From: happy at mail4.melad.jp (MELAD) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:46:53 +0900 Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCIXwhfCF8OD02YiRHIzEjMEt8MV8kLEV2JD8ka0NqGyhC?= =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCQSo3dElVJC05LEohJWEhPCVrIXwhfCF8GyhCaw==?= Message-ID: <20011111.1746530604.babaq@happy-mail4.melad.jp> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6361 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Sun Nov 11 15:55:04 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:55:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: "Passive Blackmail" - Does this kind of application exist? Message-ID: <733a0c1e98e121ce06468412422e305f@mixmaster.nullify.org> > Suppose a scenario in which an individal has knowledge or substantial > suspicion that another person, group, or state are interested in > letting him have an accident or otherwise making him disappear. > > Now, that individual could have generally important information, evidence > about exactly that plot, or other evidence or black-mail material > against those people who potentially harbor these intentions against him. It's a common plot in spy thrillers and the like: if you kill me I've arranged to release all the evidence, details of your secret plans, etc. Mysterious envelopes labeled "To be opened only in the event of my death" play a prominent part. Your basic idea seems sound: you would split the data up among a group of people, or publish the data encrypted and split the key up. Ideally the key holders don't know who the other ones are, but all are instructed that if they don't see a message from you for some period of time that they should publish their key. You could use k out of n secret sharing in case some people lose the key or don't get the message. You might want to consider Matt Blaze's "oblivious multicast" protocol, which lets you split the key up among a large number of people without knowing who those people are. This would prevent an attack where you are tortured into revealing who you had given the information to, which might allow the attacker to eliminate those people before they could leak the secrets. It's at his site, www.crypto.com/papers, in the paper on Oblivious Key Escrow. In the traditional spy novels people can find out if so-and-so is killed just by reading the obituaries. If you want to deal with the pseudonymous case, where no one knows your true identity, that won't work. You suggest publishing a signed and dated statement periodically, but one risk of this is that your attackers could coerce you into revealing your secret key, allowing them to keep up the pretense that you are still alive by publishing messages in your name. In David Chaum's credential system, there could be an is-a-person credential associated with your physical biometrics. This can be secretly linked to your pseudonyms such that credentials on any one of your identities can be shown on your others. In that system you could get periodic "Still Alive" credentials issued on your physical identity, by an agency which was trusted to reliably determine that you are still breathing. These could then be shown by your pseudonymous selves and in that way you could pseudonymously prove that you are still alive without revealing who you are. Obviously a world with such insitutions is far from where we are today, and where we are heading, unfortunately. Maybe you don't care if your True Name is revealed after your death, in which case you can link the data release to public information about your True Name's death. This wouldn't leak any information about your pseudonym until you die. If you're actually killed then presumably your attackers know your True Name as well, so it's not that bad to reveal it. From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 11 15:58:14 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:58:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <200111112344.fABNiOL25029@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > At 07:41 PM 11/11/2001 +0100, Anonymous wrote: > > Looks like the announcement of the new use of sedition laws sure put a damper on the cypherpunks list, eh? > > No matter how bad the civil liberties crackdown in a democracy > eventually citizens and their servants tire of the costs and > inconvenience. Perhaps some are have decided to lay low and wait for > the chance to act rather than talk. Or perhaps everyone is busy making the most of a three day weekend? I think you give our sheeple *far* too much credit. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 11 18:30:45 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:30:45 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <200111112344.fABNiOL25029@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <4655E9C4-D715-11D5-AEEE-0050E439C473@got.net> On Sunday, November 11, 2001, at 03:44 PM, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > At 07:41 PM 11/11/2001 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >> Looks like the announcement of the new use of sedition laws sure put >> a damper on the cypherpunks list, eh? > > No matter how bad the civil liberties crackdown in a democracy > eventually citizens and their servants tire of the costs and > inconvenience. Perhaps some are have decided to lay low and wait for > the chance to act rather than talk. > Several of us were in the Sierras this past weekend for a training session on weapons use, explosives, terrorism measures, and methods for monkeywrenching the U.S. government so as to paralyze its police state moves. For security reasons, the location was not publicized. --Tim May "Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events following 9/11/2001 From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 11 18:40:05 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:40:05 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <4655E9C4-D715-11D5-AEEE-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: Tim wrote: > Several of us were in the Sierras this past > weekend for a training session on weapons > use, explosives, terrorism measures, and > methods for monkeywrenching the U.S. > government so as to paralyze its police > state moves. > > For security reasons, the location was > not publicized. Yeah, that's that Buddhist retreat center, right? Very serene between weapons practice. S a n d y From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 11 18:51:30 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:51:30 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2CC5142F-D718-11D5-AEEE-0050E439C473@got.net> On Sunday, November 11, 2001, at 06:40 PM, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Tim wrote: > >> Several of us were in the Sierras this past >> weekend for a training session on weapons >> use, explosives, terrorism measures, and >> methods for monkeywrenching the U.S. >> government so as to paralyze its police >> state moves. >> >> For security reasons, the location was >> not publicized. > > Yeah, that's that Buddhist retreat center, right? Very serene between > weapons practice. > No, not that place. --Tim May "You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael Shirley From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Nov 11 18:58:27 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:58:27 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <2CC5142F-D718-11D5-AEEE-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: Not the Girl scout camp again? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Tim May > Sent: 11 November, 2001 18:52 > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Sedition > > > On Sunday, November 11, 2001, at 06:40 PM, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > > Tim wrote: > > > >> Several of us were in the Sierras this past > >> weekend for a training session on weapons > >> use, explosives, terrorism measures, and > >> methods for monkeywrenching the U.S. > >> government so as to paralyze its police > >> state moves. > >> > >> For security reasons, the location was > >> not publicized. > > > > Yeah, that's that Buddhist retreat center, right? Very serene between > > weapons practice. > > > > No, not that place. > > > --Tim May > "You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher > moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know > that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael > Shirley From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 11 19:01:49 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 19:01:49 -0800 Subject: Unsecured Wireless/802.11b/Passwords Message-ID: <9DAC6842-D719-11D5-AEEE-0050E439C473@got.net> At the gathering in the Sierras I mentioned, there were many interesting things revealed. One was a map of thousands of "open" communications channels over wireless links, e.g., 802.11b--just in the Bay Area. In use by government agencies, even security firms doing police state work. It was interesting to see what a Yagi antenna mounted in a truck or on a good hilltop could do for harvesting tens of thousands of passphrases and slurping down gigabytes of files. The government agencies are filled with incompetents. --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Sun Nov 11 10:41:59 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 19:41:59 +0100 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: Looks like the announcement of the new use of sedition laws sure put a damper on the cypherpunks list, eh? From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 11 19:00:29 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 21:00:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Tim wrote: > > > Several of us were in the Sierras this past > > weekend for a training session on weapons > > use, explosives, terrorism measures, and > > methods for monkeywrenching the U.S. > > government so as to paralyze its police > > state moves. > > > > For security reasons, the location was > > not publicized. > > Yeah, that's that Buddhist retreat center, right? Very serene between > weapons practice. Yeah, but the burning monks keep you awake at night :-( > S a n d y -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pud at fuckedcompany.com Sun Nov 11 22:49:46 2001 From: pud at fuckedcompany.com (pud at fuckedcompany.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:49:46 -0500 Subject: You got points on FC: Excite@Home Message-ID: <200111120744.CAA10845@deano.virtualscape.com> This is an automatic email to let you know that you just got some points on fuckedcompany.com for "Excite at Home". If you want to stop receiving these notifications, go here: http://www.fuckedcompany.com/stop.cfm?code=DYLZZPSAAYQWATA rock on, pud http://www.fuckedcompany.com From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Sun Nov 11 20:35:05 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:35:05 +0100 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: Whew! I was getting a little worried. Went out and dug up my silenced MP5, then went back and buried it again, did that 3 fucking times this weeked. > > Several of us were in the Sierras this past weekend for a training > session on weapons use, explosives, terrorism measures, and methods for > monkeywrenching the U.S. government so as to paralyze its police state > moves. > > For security reasons, the location was not publicized. From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Sun Nov 11 20:35:05 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:35:05 +0100 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: <71d86f2535602ae50c5943567b08820a@mix.winterorbit.com> > Yeah, that's that Buddhist retreat center, right? Very serene between > weapons practice. Meditation is very much a part of weapons control. Read Musashi's "Book of the Five Rings." Many of the Samurai were Zen students, and more than a few were actually Zen masters. Also read Jocho Yamamoto's book, "The Hagacure", he was a 16th Cent. Zen Samurai/monk. The book later came to be used as required reading for the glorius "Spirit Wind" pilots in WWII. How more noble can a man's life end, then to love his country, or his cause, his family, his friends -- more than himself? BlackWing From stevet at sendon.net Sun Nov 11 22:26:28 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:26:28 +0000 Subject: Unsecured Wireless/802.11b/Passwords References: <9DAC6842-D719-11D5-AEEE-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <200111120730.HAA22790@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Tim May (tcmay at got.net): [snip] > slurping down gigabytes of files. > > The government agencies are filled with incompetents. Now if only we could get them to include the phrase, "The government is full, go away" in their advertising campaings. Regards, Steve -- Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc. From andrewc110 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 12 06:22:06 2001 From: andrewc110 at hotmail.com (andrew) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:22:06 -0600 Subject: Work from a PC - 100% Internet Business Oppoturnities Message-ID: <200111121422.IAA05281@einstein.ssz.com> If you would like to make some Extra Income or building an International Business working from a PC, we provide the following : -Simple and Effective Training Programs through Internet. -All your working activities are also done through Internet. -You decide where to work. What you need is a PC with Internet connection. -You decide your working hours. Your Income depends on the effort and time you spend on doing this business. -You decide when to start or not to start ! Join as a Free Member and see for yourself the potential of this business before deciding. You have nothing to lose !! To join as a Free Member or for Further Details, kindly reply this mail with your Name. Again, you will have nothing to lose !!! Thank you and Best Regards, Andrew P/s : this email is only sent once and need not be removed. From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Mon Nov 12 08:51:38 2001 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:51:38 -0800 Subject: mapping in the sierras and places west In-Reply-To: <3BEFEFD8.3F211B57@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011112084321.03ce0320@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 07:50 AM 11/12/2001 -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >But you missed the mil 4-engine cargo-type plane towing a wire held >in a trailing Y config by two mil copters flying in tight formation >behind it, >circling SF. Yes, I wouldn't have believed that was possible without >having seen it. > >Maybe they were mapping too. They overflew San Jose and Santa Clara, too, headed westbound. What would a trailing wire like that measure or receive? My limited understanding of RF says it'd be good for picking up very low frequency emissions or transmissions - but I don't know of any sources of those that I'd expect to be of interest, other than those used by US subs and I'm sure they have better ways to pick those up. I'd have expected the interesting intel to be up at the other end of the RF spectrum, in the 800-2400 Mhz range with cell phones, cordless phones, pagers, 802.11b, etc. Any ideas? -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From mv at cdc.gov Mon Nov 12 09:32:12 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:32:12 -0800 Subject: Sircam's humor: "animal farm novel report.doc" forwarded to list Message-ID: <3BF0079C.631A331D@cdc.gov> The inet-one.com archives show a Sircam offering which is just too humorous to ignore, and which lne.com folks won't see: a file called "animal farm novel report.doc.com" (which is, of course, infected). But the deadly hacker tool known as emacs reveals the following summary (the copyright still belongs to someone known to "Eleanor D. Mantanona"). Money and power is what this story is based on with animals who are very diverse and the same. Animal Farm is based on animals who want to become independent, so they start a rebellion which was put together by Old Major who is a prize winning boar whose vision of a socialist utopia serves as the inspiration for the rebellion. Three days after describing the vision and teaching the animals the song Beast Of England, Major dies leaving Snowball and Napoleon to fight for control. Later on Napoleon the pig who emerges as the leader of Animal Farm after Old Major dies. Napoleon uses military force (his nine loyal attack dogs), to intimidate other animals and consolidate his power. Snowball the pig who challenged Napoleon for control of Animal Farm which he had lost, Snowball is an Intelligent, Passionate, and Eloquent pig. But Snowball seemed to win the loyalty of the other animals and cement his powers, but that all changed when Napoleon sent his attack dogs after Snowball and drove him out of Animal Farm. There is only one animal on the farm who would not whine about the work he has to do for Napoleon his name is Boxer the great cart-horse whose incredible strength, dedication, and loyalty play a key role in the early prosperity of Animal Farm and later the completion of the windmill. Boxer shows much devotion to Animal Farms ideals but little ability to think about them independently. He counted on the pigs to make his decisions for him. His two mottoes are  I will work harder  and  Napoleon is always right . One of the commandments were All animals are equal  but that later changed in the story because some animals were more privileged than others some animals had to work twice as hard as others and Napoleon got to sit back and demand animals to do work while he made profit off of them by taking many eggs from hens and selling them or selling cows milk. If I recall Old Major saying that they will not sell their goods to people. Napoleon was becoming one of the farmers himself by taking the milk and drinking it himself, but the other animals obeyed the pigs hoping for a better future but as of now their future is not insight. Animal farm is a book that can show what power, money, and dictatorship can do to a person or animal From mv at cdc.gov Mon Nov 12 09:44:20 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:44:20 -0800 Subject: and in other headlines (Atta'd by 587) today... Message-ID: <3BF00A74.C385B3DD@cdc.gov> "Hollywood Signs On to Assist War Effort" read the headline today; "Propoganda outlets are military targets" said NATO, last war. From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Mon Nov 12 06:55:22 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:55:22 -0500 Subject: Plane crash in NYC Message-ID: <20011112095522.B21606@ils.unc.edu> According to various sources, a 767 went down in the Rockaways section of Queens, NY. Houses are on fire. All NYC airports are closed. This happened "shortly after 9:00 am" according to Newsday. From jya at pipeline.com Mon Nov 12 10:35:45 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:35:45 -0800 Subject: Plane crash in NYC In-Reply-To: <20011112095522.B21606@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <200111121541.KAA10268@smtp6.mindspring.com> Local reports of eyewitnesses say an engine came off first, and landed separately from the plane. The plane came in "flat," not nosediving, thus perhaps somewhat under the pilot's control. Plane was zigzagging before it crashed. The A300 can be landed without power, thus stable with both engines gone. The engine that came off could have caused destablization. No evidence of an attack. However, terrorist games often include scenarios of an ground to air attack on planes leaving Kennedy as they pass over the lightly populated areas of Queens (a lot of open water and marshlands). No eyewitness accounts of missile tracks. One witness of the engine falling said he heard no explosion beforehand. Another said the sound of the plane was unusual, more like a jet fighter than an airliner. Jet fighters are on regular patrol around the city and NY airports. As reported, bridges and tunnels closed, except some outbound traffic allowed. Phones here are jammed. From jya at pipeline.com Mon Nov 12 11:18:20 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:18:20 -0800 Subject: Plane crash in NYC In-Reply-To: <200111121541.KAA10268@smtp6.mindspring.com> References: <20011112095522.B21606@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <200111121623.LAA04584@smtp6.mindspring.com> This may be on national but the local ABC station is showing raw footage of the plane and engine crash sites, fairly close up, right by the fallen engine, and within a few yards of the plane. There are relatively large portions of the plane which seems to indicate a slower speed hit. The fire at the engine is out, but the plane and surrounding building fires continue. A mix of firemen, police and citizens battling the blaze. A few young men running into the fire along a street of houses for unknown reasons, but may be heading for home or known area locations. Running right into and through the flames. These are wood fires of houses and trees not fuel, which explains the whitish smoke. From mv at cdc.gov Mon Nov 12 11:34:42 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:34:42 -0800 Subject: mapping in the sierras and places west Message-ID: <3BF02451.65EDF5FF@cdc.gov> At 12:36 PM 11/12/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Well, very low frequency could be used quite easily by almost anyone, in >fact, the simplest, cheapest, most portable transmitters would use VLF and >morse code. It's something any 10 year old kid could rig, and you get >excellent propagation all over the world. Hams use VLF around campfires just >for kicks. >And if you used it in burst mode with a pre-recorded tape or digital input of >an encrypted message sent in morse -- who knows? It has long been a cypherpunkly gedanken performance art project to build and deploy solar-powered bursting longwave transmitters driven by quality noise sources in the american deserts (or elsewhere). Extra points if you align them towards interesting landmarks. Survival Research Labs will help us only if the Noise Fireflies attract bombing runs. Which they might. -------- 'What interests me is that it recorded 18 hours of static..' -_Contact_ From jae at jerhard.org Mon Nov 12 02:36:35 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:36:35 +0100 Subject: You Have Been Sent A Halloween Card! In-Reply-To: <200110300332.DAA65319@s0218.pm0.net> (message from Wallstreet Universe on Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:27:02 PST) References: <200110300332.DAA65319@s0218.pm0.net> Message-ID: >>>>> "Wallstreet" == Wallstreet Universe writes: Wallstreet> +>+>+> BURN OFF FAT NOW!!! How? With our proven NEW Wallstreet> fat burning breakthrough product. Fast! Easy! Safe! Wallstreet> Take it off and keep it off. NO Ma Huang, Ephedra, or Wallstreet> guarana. Only valid for United States residents over Wallstreet> 18+ ITYM "Only valid for United States residents with an IQ under 18". Thankfully, there are enough of them. Wallstreet> +>+>+> HALLOWEEN TRIVIA Wallstreet> SIGNS OF A WEREWOLF: [...] >>>>> Long middle finger Like that finger I'm showing you right now? Then I'm a werewolf. Bye, J -- Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) Invasion! http://invasion.jerhard.org Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org) C> (A)bort (R)etry (I)nfluence with a large hammer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paul200sx at hotmail.com Sun Nov 11 17:02:01 2001 From: paul200sx at hotmail.com (Pasha I) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:02:01 +1100 Subject: adult friend finder Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 434 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 12 12:14:19 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:14:19 -0800 Subject: Teasing Receivers Message-ID: <3BF02D9B.9F12BF83@lsil.com> Re: mapping in the sierras and places west "Major Variola (ret)" wrote : > >At 12:36 PM 11/12/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: >> Well, very low frequency could be used quite easily by almost >anyone, in >>fact, the simplest, cheapest, most portable transmitters would use VLF >and >>morse code. It's something any 10 year old kid could rig, and you get >>excellent propagation all over the world. Hams use VLF around campfires >just >>for kicks. >>And if you used it in burst mode with a pre-recorded tape or digital >input of >>an encrypted message sent in morse -- who knows? > >It has long been a cypherpunkly gedanken performance art project >to build and deploy solar-powered bursting longwave transmitters >driven by quality noise sources in the american deserts (or elsewhere). >Extra points if you align them towards interesting landmarks. > >Survival Research Labs will help us only if the Noise Fireflies attract >bombing runs. Which they might. > Doesn't sound very difficult or expensive to make. Even easier would be Near IR emitters teasing overflights with sedition and libelous insults. Should fit in a small package. Could probably operate for a long time without attention. Any idea what sort of power levels would be needed to assure visibility? Lots of desolate hills around. Might be fun to see if they're even found... From declan at well.com Mon Nov 12 09:14:34 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:14:34 -0500 Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. In-Reply-To: <3BEAC6E9.32485.1E21872@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 05:54:49PM -0800 References: <3BEAC6E9.32485.1E21872@localhost> Message-ID: <20011112121434.A2762@cluebot.com> On Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 05:54:49PM -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Should the FBI RICO members of this mailing list, the list > will be reported in the press as a right wing extremist hate > group. Don't be silly. Mainstream pop-journalists will be forced to note the presence of anarchist-types here (hello, proffr) and conclude that cypherpunks is an "unprecedented, according to law enforcement sources, alliance of left and right extremist hate groups." -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Nov 12 09:26:44 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:26:44 -0500 Subject: Declan should be ashamed In-Reply-To: <0DCEACEB-D4DB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net>; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 10:28:57PM -0800 References: <0DCEACEB-D4DB-11D5-8D6A-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011112122644.B2762@cluebot.com> On Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 10:28:57PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > I never click on banner ads, but I decided to do an experiment, just to > see what sort of company Declan has established this business > relationship (of whatever kind) with. To defray in part the costs of running the site, I use Burst Media (burstmedia.com), an ad agency similar in principle to Doubleclick. I include a small chunk of HTML code at the top of the webpage -- Burst salespeople sell the ads and they run on my and other sites (Burst's commission varies from 30 to 50 percent). I do not review the ads that appear on my site, and Burst adds and deletes advertisers (generally about 50 are cycling through at any one time) from the list without consulting me. News organizations would call this an editorial firewall. Burst does give me the ability to make broad choices, like reject gambling or alcohol ads (I allow them) or pop-up ads (I reject them). I'd do the same with the evil blinking ads that Tim hates, if there was a category I could reject. Fortunately, it's trivial to use ad-blocking software if this bothers you. The online ad business is in the toilet, true, but if I can pay part of the server hosting fee through the ads, I'm inclined to keep doing it. In any case, it's a stretch to say I have "established a business relationship" with an advertiser when I have no idea what ads are appearing -- it's only correct to say I've established a business relationship with Burst. -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Nov 12 09:36:49 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:36:49 -0500 Subject: Hush press release: Microsoft Outlook "secure solution" Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011112123601.026ca120@mail.well.com> November 2001: Hush Communications are pleased to introduce HushMail Professional(tm), for Outlook 2000, the latest addition to its suite of easy to use secure solutions. HushMail Professional is a secure desktop solution that offers maximum strength security (2048 bit), easy-to-use functionality including digital signature facility, and other exciting features without the user having to change their existing email provider. Whether communicating a private opinion, business critical data, or a negotiating strategy, the HushMail Professional user is able to send encrypted email to any Hush user in the world, as well as digitally signed email to anyone with a valid email address. With HushMail Professional users can communicate in confidence, knowing that our state-of-the-art encryption engine is protecting and authenticating the data. Furthermore, HushMail Professional is just one of the solutions Hush Communications offer with OpenPGP compliancy. Using HushMail Professional in conjunction with HushTools (www.hushtools.com) users can now communicate securely with PGP and other member company applications, creating a universal interoperable platform for secure digital technologies. PGP is the most widely used email security protocol and this new version opens up HushMail Professional users to an estimated 8 million PGP users worldwide. Support for OpenPGP marks a major breakthrough in widening the appeal and usability of Hush solutions, as it has achieved interoperability for personal privacy and business security. Overview: The explosive growth in e-commerce has created a battleground for secure digital communications solutions, offering a multitude of products and services. PKI is the only technology that provides for all critical network security needs. These are authentication, confidentiality, data integrity, non-repudiation, flexibility, and scalability. 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Hush Communications are inviting interested parties to review HushMail Professional immediately. Interviews by phone or by appointment are welcomed. Phil Zimmermann, one of the world's leading encryption experts, joined Hush as chief cryptographer. His appointment strengthened efforts to establish Hush as the de facto global standard of encrypted email. Zimmermann is regarded as one of the fathers of modern encryption having created PGP (Pretty Good Privacy), a premier email encryption program and currently one of the world's leading encryption standards. Phil is available to discuss the new product, our solutions range and other issues such as: 7 The Open PGP Alliance. 7 Interoperability - the issues. 7 PKI - how it works and how it is used. 7 Creating a de facto standard for secure messaging. 7 Securing the Internet - reality or pipe dream? 7 Digital Signatures and legislation. 7 Hush Communications products and services line. 7 Outsourcing PKI. Hush is a founding member of the OpenPGP Alliance (www.openpgp.org/), an organization dedicated to promoting compatibility among private electronic communications systems. The company's solutions are patented and are bought by companies in the financial, medical, and legal markets, among others. We welcome all inquiries and review requests and we look forward to hearing from you. Please Contact: Ciara Hudson Hush Communications 12 Lower Hatch Street Dublin 2 Ireland + 353 1 4357 831 email: ciara.hudson at hush.com From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 12 10:36:58 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:36:58 -0600 Subject: mapping in the sierras and places west References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011112084321.03ce0320@bivens.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <3BF016B6.F2DD417@cybershamanix.com> Well, very low frequency could be used quite easily by almost anyone, in fact, the simplest, cheapest, most portable transmitters would use VLF and morse code. It's something any 10 year old kid could rig, and you get excellent propagation all over the world. Hams use VLF around campfires just for kicks. And if you used it in burst mode with a pre-recorded tape or digital input of an encrypted message sent in morse -- who knows? Greg Broiles wrote: > At 07:50 AM 11/12/2001 -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >But you missed the mil 4-engine cargo-type plane towing a wire held > >in a trailing Y config by two mil copters flying in tight formation > >behind it, > >circling SF. Yes, I wouldn't have believed that was possible without > >having seen it. > > > >Maybe they were mapping too. > > They overflew San Jose and Santa Clara, too, headed westbound. > > What would a trailing wire like that measure or receive? My limited > understanding of RF says it'd be good for picking up very low frequency > emissions or transmissions - but I don't know of any sources of those that > I'd expect to be of interest, other than those used by US subs and I'm sure > they have better ways to pick those up. > > I'd have expected the interesting intel to be up at the other end of the RF > spectrum, in the 800-2400 Mhz range with cell phones, cordless phones, > pagers, 802.11b, etc. Any ideas? > > -- > Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 > 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. > 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National > disgrace. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From dog3 at ns.charc.net Mon Nov 12 09:40:24 2001 From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:40:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: List still alive? Message-ID: Messages came to a screeching halt on the 10th. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 12 09:45:06 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:45:06 -0500 Subject: Sircam's humor: "animal farm novel report.doc" forwarded to l ist Message-ID: > Major Variola (ret)[SMTP:mv at cdc.gov] writes: > > The inet-one.com archives show a Sircam offering which is just too > humorous to ignore, and which lne.com folks won't see: > a file called "animal farm novel report.doc.com" > (which is, of course, infected). > [...] Humor? I think it's sad. The sad thing, of course, is that 'Eleanor' does not recognize that Animal Farm is a person-by-person, event-by-event, allegorization of the Russian Revolution and ensuing events. Such is the state of modern education. Those who will not remember the past.... Peter Trei From phoenix_dj at yourwap.com Mon Nov 12 04:04:09 2001 From: phoenix_dj at yourwap.com (phoenix_dj) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:04:09 +0100 Subject: How to make C4 Message-ID: <200111121204.fACC49B15250@Mail.YourWAP.com> HELLo! I learned this one myself. you need to put some (ca. 1/4 cup) gasoline in a cup. Then put in some styrol and wait till it melts. PS: you have too fuse it with 220V, it usualy doesn´t work with fire. Have a nice day :D By: Phoenix Deejay -- NEW! Info Center Quick menu - better overview and access to the main services Premium Services - SMS notifications and reminders Sign up for a premium account now! Receive a welcome bonus of 2 €! From phoenix_dj at yourwap.com Mon Nov 12 04:06:31 2001 From: phoenix_dj at yourwap.com (phoenix_dj) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:06:31 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200111121206.fACC6VB15451@Mail.YourWAP.com> Thank me at fans at email.si or just send me a mail.. or if you want anything else... (ping-pong napalm...) Bye Bye PHOENIX DJ -- NEW! Info Center Quick menu - better overview and access to the main services Premium Services - SMS notifications and reminders Sign up for a premium account now! Receive a welcome bonus of 2 €! From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Mon Nov 12 12:42:47 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:42:47 -0600 Subject: You've Been Added! Message-ID: <200111122042.OAA06055@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the addition of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com to the Nurse-zine mailing list. If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to remove yourself automatically, or click the link below: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?remove=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From jya at pipeline.com Mon Nov 12 14:57:25 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:57:25 -0800 Subject: mapping in the sierras and places west In-Reply-To: <3BF02451.65EDF5FF@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <200111122002.PAA05502@smtp6.mindspring.com> Aren't these kind of rigs used to survey, triangulate and record large numbers of ground-based transceivers? If so, they are similar to rigs which do geological surveys with packs of machines you can see traversing likely oil reserves. Odd looking, six or so trucks, bumper to bumper, running 50 yards or so, pausing, an almost inaudible hammering on the ground, then rushing ahead to the next stop. Logs of these soundings are reportedly transmitted directly to home base, encrypted, so the trucks cannot be hijacked or intercepted by competitors. So the wishful thinking goes. In the case of aerial surveys of radio frequencies, it is possible to spoof signals by tucking the genuine in amongst "static." But successful evasion depends on the snoopers not have quick-witted algorithms to snatch the static, even if it's burst transceivals, and make sense of it. If you encrypt the sneaky signal you're dead meat. Again, learning from the oil patch pirates, you can lay off over the horizon and grab the sounding data by reading the ground signal in the clear not the encrypted air data. But beware of chaff sent out by the trucks to thwart that such angle snooping. Some packs of trucks are reconnaissance by fire. As are some of the aerial surveys, which invite tracking of the overt apparatus to snatch the pirates' interceptions by way of reverse engineering the snoop with an array so large you wouldn't know it was there unless you had an antenna capable of reading it. Some locate components of the secondary receiver city-wide, or maybe wider. Some radio engineers think the mobile phone system transceivers are used for that very, very wide array purpose tucked dual-use below the consumer usage. Would mobile phones also serve as unwitting contributors to a large area transceiver? Sophicticated geological sensors can certainly get pretty good readings from heavy traffic on the interstate, and it gets better as the highways deteriorate. Concrete expansion joints are wondrous impactors. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5695 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Mon Nov 12 14:08:18 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:08:18 -0600 Subject: You've Been Removed! Message-ID: <200111122208.QAA20745@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the removal of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com from the Nurse-zine mailing list. We're sorry to see you go! If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to add yourself automatically, or click on the link below to automatically re-subscribe yourself: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?add=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 12 16:32:27 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:32:27 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <200111122327.SAA24462@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: On Monday, November 12, 2001, at 03:27 PM, Faustine wrote: > So why are you publicizing it after the fact? Is it really worth the > risk > you're taking by mentioning it just to respond to a taunt by some > ignorant > smugster behind a remailer? If questioning your commitment is all it > takes > to push your buttons, I'd say that's less than optimal. You, thank Baal, have no knowledge of what "pushes my buttons." You also have almost no list experience here (though this has never stopped you from lecturing us on things you've read about in books). I write about what I desire to write about. Now that the training camp is over, there is no threat to the security of the operation. They lack time machines. > I'm sure anyone who bears ill-will to the group is finding this whole > thread > quite instructive--undoubtedly the point of the original post in the > first > place. Good show. How sickening to think that now you have to worry > about getting anti-paramilitary training statutes dumped on you (on top > of > anything else) just because a few people couldn't resist showing up a > stupid > troll. And which "anti-paramilitary traning statutes" would these be? Tell us what your college professors told you...but check it against reality before passing it on. > Even worse,in true "have you stopped beating your wife" fashion, it > makes it > appear that everyone who posts here and is passionate about encryption > is doing > something rightfully covered by the sedtion laws, which couldn't be > further > from the truth. I resent this profoundly, but I'll talk about what and > why I do > what I do (or don't do) on my own time, not as a response to someone > baiting > me. What you "resent profoundly" does not matter. And what is done by other memmbers of a list does not establish guilt by association, except in your fevered mind. For example, the discussion I contributed to on hacking the air traffic control system for political purposes makes you guilty of which crime and in which way? > > > Here's hoping your temper doesn't get the better of you. > You are ignorant of my mental state of mind. Twit. --Tim May "They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the vote." --Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw the USA-PATRIOT Bill before voting overwhelmingly to imposed a police state From declan at well.com Mon Nov 12 13:34:54 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:34:54 -0500 Subject: Lne.com problems (Re: List still alive?) In-Reply-To: ; from dog3@ns.charc.net on Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 12:40:24PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20011112163454.A10146@cluebot.com> I'm getting this error when I try to send mail to the lne.com node: ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- This seems to be a DNS problem on meer.net (which provids lne.com with connectivity) or at lne.com itself. I've received lne.com messages today, including the cubic-dog one, so the problem is intermittent. -Declan On Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 12:40:24PM -0500, cubic-dog wrote: > Messages came to a screeching halt on the 10th. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Nov 12 15:07:45 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:07:45 -0600 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <2CC5142F-D718-11D5-AEEE-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: More like corruption...the intimidation and suppression of moderate viewpoints through public ridicule, an ideological culling based on fears of association, and then a real or perceived compromise from which there is no return? Some would profess American Constitutional ideals, but use methods that strike me as distinctively un-American in character. ~Aimee "In troubled waters, there's good fishing." From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 12 17:15:50 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:15:50 -0800 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: <3BF07446.641C81DB@lsil.com> Faustine wrote : >Tim wrote: > >>Several of us were in the Sierras this past weekend for a training >>session on weapons use, explosives, terrorism measures, and methods for >>monkey wrenching the U.S. government so as to paralyze its police state >>moves. > >>For security reasons, the location was not publicized. > > >So why are you publicizing it after the fact? Is it really worth the risk >you're taking by mentioning it just to respond to a taunt by some ignorant >smugster behind a remailer? If questioning your commitment is all it takes >to push your buttons, I'd say that's less than optimal. > >I'm sure anyone who bears ill-will to the group is finding this whole thread >quite instructive--undoubtedly the point of the original post in the first >place. Good show. How sickening to think that now you have to worry >about getting anti-paramilitary training statutes dumped on you (on top of >anything else) just because a few people couldn't resist showing up a stupid >troll. > >Even worse,in true "have you stopped beating your wife" fashion, it makes it >appear that everyone who posts here and is passionate about encryption is doing >something rightfully covered by the sedtion laws, which couldn't be further >from the truth. I resent this profoundly, but I'll talk about what and why I do >what I do (or don't do) on my own time, not as a response to someone baiting >me. > >No need to be on such a hair trigger: the archives speak for themselves. >For you to keep tossing out all this sucker-bait-for-feds in the name of >furthering your one-man strategic deterrence campaign is a bit excessive. >Once you've established your credibility there's no real reason to keep >raising the stakes. Especially not in response to someone blowing virtual >spitwads at you from behind a remailer. > >Here's hoping your temper doesn't get the better of you. > >~Faustine. > DNS has been giving me grief into the wee hours so I figure I'm pretty slow myself but I'm thinking you just could be a mite clueless. *When asked by parents why you're taking so long in the bathroom : A: Oh, I'm just shooting up so I can put up with you guys at the dinner table. *When asked by the priest how you spent your weekend : A: Oh we had an orgy and sacrificed a goat to Satan at midnight on Saturday. The blood was really tasty. Then we stalked hot teen virgins at the church picnic. *When asked by the drug police how you spent your weekend : A: Oh, we moved 100 lbs of crack from our labs to NYC and wasted a prosecutor who was giving us a little grief in LA. *When asked (observed speaking) by the counterterrorism official how you spent your weekend : >Tim wrote: > >>Several of us were in the Sierras this past weekend for a training >>session on weapons use, explosives, terrorism measures, and methods for >>monkey wrenching the U.S. government so as to paralyze its police state >>moves. When asked by a member of the Comittee to Stamp Out Violence in the Media what your favorite movie is you launch into detailed descriptions of Pulp Fiction and praise each scene lavishly and then challenge her to a game of DOOM. When asked about my opinion for what needed at the library in my town ( since I'm not responsible for doing anything about it but know a few folks who are ) I say there should be more hardcopy porno and a better IN connection. Then I don't waste my time answering questions that will never be implemented anyway. Is that enough? So if false it is art and even if it is true, so what? Studying tactics & methods is not planning some sort of an attack. From mbcpro at hanmir.com Mon Nov 12 01:24:06 2001 From: mbcpro at hanmir.com (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?aW1iYw==?=) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:24:06 +0900 Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dTUJDvsbEq7Wlucy/obytILmrt+G/tcitIENEuKYguejG98fPsO0gwNa9wLTPtNku?= Message-ID: <200111120920.fAC9K0Q07337@mail.kornet.net> MBC 무빙 잉글리쉬 안녕하세요? MBC무비잉글리쉬입니다. MBC무비잉글리쉬는 세계적인 기업 월트 디즈니사와 제휴로멀티미디어 통합기술을 이용한 최첨단디지털 교재로 데이터압축방식인 M-PEG를 구현하여 만들었습니다. 여기에는 캡션 기능이 첨가되어(영문자막, 한글자막, 무자막)선택과 DICTAION 기능이 첨가 되어 즉석에서 듣기능력 평가를할 수 있도록 기획되었습니다. MBC 아카데미 무비잉글리쉬는 올바른 영어교육의 방향 제시를통하여 학회나 학교, SK나 한국통신등에서 효율적인 학습체계로손쉽고 재미있게 실질적인 영어실력을 키울 수 있으므로, 전국의많은 기업에서 활용을 하고 있습니다. 현재 고개님들의 학습에 도움이 되고자, 무료 샘플 CD를 배포하고 있아오니 관심 있으신 분은 아래의 배너를 클릭하여 주시기 바랍니다. 감사합니다. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5794 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 12 16:26:27 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:26:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: List still alive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, cubic-dog wrote: > Messages came to a screeching halt on the 10th. Still here. Can't really say that I've run across anything that isn't redundent the last couple of days. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From faustine at lokmail.net Mon Nov 12 15:27:34 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:27:34 -0500 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: <200111122327.SAA24462@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2305 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jae at jerhard.org Mon Nov 12 09:50:39 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:50:39 +0100 Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: <20011106162234.I361@navel.introspect> (kmself@ix.netcom.com) References: <3BE8723F.489624BD@ssz.com> <20011106162234.I361@navel.introspect> Message-ID: >>>>> "Karsten" == Karsten M Self writes: Karsten> --Ck22u5fw4m2k6hx2 Karsten> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Karsten> Content-Disposition: inline Karsten> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Karsten> on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:29:03PM -0600, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com) wrote: >> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/06/2028252.shtml Karsten> Big Biz sues helpful guy, and somewhat wins. "Somewhat" is the understatement of the millenium (and I mean *this* millenium!) To wit: Karsten> There are a few other consequences of the settlement Karsten> which are of interest to MathWorld readers. The first Karsten> is that a copyright statement "=A9 1999 CRC Press Karsten> LLC" (in addition of the =A9 1999-2001 Wolfram Karsten> Research, Inc. notice) now appears at the bottom of Karsten> MathWorld entries that have a corresponding article Karsten> in CRC's printed shapshot. I hope they lose authors and customers like a dog loses fleas when wearing a flea collar. Bye, J -- Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) MARS http://mars.jerhard.org "Yesterday's the past and tomorrow's the future. Today is a gift -- which is why they call it the present." -- Butterfly -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Mon Nov 12 17:53:07 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:53:07 -0600 Subject: You've Been Added! Message-ID: <200111130153.TAA23788@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the addition of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com to the Nurse-zine mailing list. If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to remove yourself automatically, or click the link below: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?remove=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Mon Nov 12 18:09:54 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:09:54 -0600 Subject: You've Been Removed! Message-ID: <200111130209.UAA26466@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the removal of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com from the Nurse-zine mailing list. We're sorry to see you go! If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to add yourself automatically, or click on the link below to automatically re-subscribe yourself: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?add=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 12 18:17:34 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:17:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > You, thank Baal, have no knowledge of what "pushes my buttons." You also > have almost no list experience here (though this has never stopped you > from lecturing us on things you've read about in books). > > I write about what I desire to write about. 'Freedom for me, not for thee' -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at bounty.org Mon Nov 12 20:41:48 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:41:48 -0800 Subject: Unsecured Wireless/802.11b/Passwords In-Reply-To: <9DAC6842-D719-11D5-AEEE-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Sunday, November 11, 2001, at 07:01 PM, Tim May wrote: > The government agencies are filled with incompetents. Which many of us are thankful for. From petro at bounty.org Mon Nov 12 20:45:31 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:45:31 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <71d86f2535602ae50c5943567b08820a@mix.winterorbit.com> Message-ID: <44CF277A-D7F1-11D5-96DA-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Sunday, November 11, 2001, at 08:35 PM, Anonymous wrote: > > How more noble can a man's life end, then to love his country, or > his cause, his family, his friends -- more than himself? More noble to die in bed of old age, children raised to be self-sufficient and independent, bills paid up and burial money in the bank. Country and Cause are often masks, cover for hooligans and blackguards. It is not noble to die in defense of family and friends, to die in such cases is a failure, but at least it's a failure in the attempt to do ones duty than in the attempt to avoid it. "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From petro at bounty.org Mon Nov 12 20:58:06 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:58:06 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <200111122327.SAA24462@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <06B630BB-D7F3-11D5-96DA-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Monday, November 12, 2001, at 03:27 PM, Faustine wrote: > Tim wrote: >> Several of us were in the Sierras this past weekend for a training >> session on weapons use, explosives, terrorism measures, and methods for >> monkey wrenching the U.S. government so as to paralyze its police state >> moves. >> For security reasons, the location was not publicized. > > So why are you publicizing it after the fact? Is it really worth the > risk > you're taking by mentioning it just to respond to a taunt by some > ignorant > smugster behind a remailer? If questioning your commitment is all it > takes > to push your buttons, I'd say that's less than optimal. <...> > No need to be on such a hair trigger: the archives speak for themselves. > For you to keep tossing out all this sucker-bait-for-feds in the name of > furthering your one-man strategic deterrence campaign is a bit excessive. > Once you've established your credibility there's no real reason to keep > raising the stakes. Especially not in response to someone blowing virtual > spitwads at you from behind a remailer. Mr. May is our lightening rod. When he goes away, it's time. Time to fight, time to run, time to shut up and get with the program, whatever, but it'll be time for it. -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From CrushMaster at crushlink.com Mon Nov 12 13:34:32 2001 From: CrushMaster at crushlink.com (CrushMaster at crushlink.com) Date: 12 Nov 2001 21:34:32 -0000 Subject: Somebody has a crush on you Message-ID: <20011112213432.12593.qmail@web3.crushlink.com> Guess what... you've got a secret admirer! Want to find out who it is? Come visit... http://www.CrushLink.com Email address: cypherpunks at toad.com Invitation code: 8hc67f Make sure you enter in this information exactly as shown above. See you soon! Sincerely, The Crush Master --- PS. This is not junk email. You've received it because someone *you know* came to CrushLink and confessed an interest in you! Maybe it was that hottie from English class or the cute one at the party last weekend or maybe--well, we can't even give you a hint until you come to CrushLink.com. PPS. If you do not wish to receive any more of these messages from CrushLink, please visit http://www.CrushLink.com/block.php3 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1437 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 12 21:38:21 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 21:38:21 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <200111130442.XAA12226@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: On Monday, November 12, 2001, at 08:42 PM, Faustine wrote: > Why talk about it though? The sheer satisfaction of imagining feds and > sheeple > crapping their pants in fearful anticipation? Even if nothing happened > at all, > you have to realize unsympathetic people who aren't in on your peculiar > brand > of humor are going to take things like this at face value and hold it > against > you. You risk getting slapped around with the anti-paramilitary training > statutes whether you're kidding or not. I'm not kidding. I was there from Friday morning to last night. As for "getting slapped around," I presume you plan to back this up with something more than your "intuition"? > (gratuitous ad hominem snipped) > > - From the "Allegiance to the US" section of the handbook on reasons > for denying > clearance: Gee, I haven't sought "clearance." > > http://www.dss.mil/training/adr/alleg/allegF.htm > > Laws Regarding Private Militias > > Federal law prohibits paramilitary training and the manufacture or > transport of > weapons with the knowledge or intent that they will be used to create a > civil > disturbance. (Ref 10) Federal law differs from most state laws > prohibiting > paramilitary training in that it applies only to the trainers, not the > trainees. Under most state laws governing paramilitary training, > participation > as a trainee is also illegal. Unconstitutional nonsense. So, Agent Faustine, report me. I wish I'd had your report to distribute to the group on Friday night. Adding your name to the checklist of enemies would have been useful, but at the time I didn't think you were quite as much of an enemy as the obvious names. --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787 From info at giganetstore.com Mon Nov 12 14:05:39 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:05:39 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?A_promo=E7=E3o_do_Rudolfo_=3F!?= Message-ID: <04c0e3905220cb1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> A promoção do Rudolfo !? Após vários anos de trabalho ardúo e de grande esforço, o Rudolfo foi finalmente compensado !! A giganetstore.com resolveu promover o Rudolfo a Pai Natal da Net, desta forma você vai poder contar, ao longo das próximas semanas, com as magníficas Dicas do Rudolfo. Este Natal vai ser mais fácil escolher os seus presentes, basta estar atento ao seu mail Palm M 105 Com Oferta do Eurotool Não perca esta oportunidade !! Na compra de um Palm m105 você ganha um EUROTOOL a Ferramenta multi-funcional destinada a cortar e serrar, especialmente indicada para vidro, cabos, tecidos e carpetes. Esc. 49.900,00 € 248,90 Palm M 505 Com Oferta do Flavour Express Na compra de um Palm M 505 você ganha um Flavour Express que é um aparelho de temperar e decorar os alimentos. É perfeito para a concepção de grandes cozinhados, porque permite temperar os alimentos em profundidade. Esc. 121.900,00 € 608,03 Satellite 1800-504 128MB 15GB DVD Com Oferta do AbSlide Na compra deste Portátil Toshiba você ganha um AbSlide que é uma aparelho de ginástica que trabalha 8 zonas do corpo em apenas 3 minutos por dia. Vai poder exercitar os seus abdominais e peitorais de forma eficaz. Esc. 361.900,00 € 1.805,15 Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4998 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dillion9603 at gqjujgtjws.yahoo.com Mon Nov 12 23:01:41 2001 From: dillion9603 at gqjujgtjws.yahoo.com (dillion9603 at gqjujgtjws.yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:01:41 -0800 Subject: DVD Copying Software -myph Message-ID: Wish You Could Copy DVD Movies? Now You Can! Click Here For Details http://www.barachamismo.org/dvd2/index.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1682 bytes Desc: not available URL: From faustine at lokmail.net Mon Nov 12 20:37:39 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:37:39 -0500 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: <200111130437.XAA10138@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 7811 bytes Desc: not available URL: From faustine at lokmail.net Mon Nov 12 20:42:27 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:42:27 -0500 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: <200111130442.XAA12226@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 7824 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Mon Nov 12 21:54:04 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:54:04 -0600 Subject: You've Been Added! Message-ID: <200111130554.XAA27079@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the addition of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com to the Nurse-zine mailing list. If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to remove yourself automatically, or click the link below: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?remove=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From declan at well.com Mon Nov 12 21:34:06 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 00:34:06 -0500 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <200111130437.XAA10138@mail.lokmail.net>; from faustine@lokmail.net on Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 11:37:39PM -0500 References: <200111130437.XAA10138@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <20011113003406.A27979@cluebot.com> On Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 11:37:39PM -0500, Faustine cited: > http://www.dss.mil/training/adr/alleg/allegF.htm Which says: > Laws are on the books in 41 states to ban either the militias themselves or > paramilitary training or both. (Ref 11) [...] > California. Anti-paramilitary training. Cal. Penal Code ' 11460. [...] Let's check the above, using California as an example since that's what started this thread. What I found here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=62867026669+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve Says in the relevant section: 11460. (a) Any two or more persons who assemble as a paramilitary organization for the purpose of practicing with weapons shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars by both. As used in this subdivision, "paramilitary organization" means an organization which is not an agency of the United States government or of the State of California, or which is not a private school meeting the requirements set forth in Section 12154 of the Education Code, but which engages in instruction or training in guerilla warfare or sabotage, or which, as an organization, engages in rioting or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with, school activities. Faustine's loose definition of "paramilitary training" may seem to apply, but if you read carefully, the legal definition used in the California penal code is a bit narrower. Naturally I'm not arguing that such laws are just, sound, or advisable. ObCypherpunk: Look for "instruction in hacking techniques or computer breaking-and-entering not performed by a state-licensed instructor" next. -Declan From petro at bounty.org Tue Nov 13 00:40:10 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 00:40:10 -0800 Subject: Shrubs Future, from the Past: Rolling Thunder (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0C6D16BF-D812-11D5-96DA-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Sunday, November 11, 2001, at 10:15 AM, measl at mfn.org wrote: > He intensified the bombing attacks and expanded them > into Cambodia. Each bomb dropped may be a losing > proposition, perhaps he reasoned, but we can make it up > on volume! Ah, the origin of the dot-com business plan! -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From CrushMaster at CrushLink.com Mon Nov 12 16:51:55 2001 From: CrushMaster at CrushLink.com (CrushMaster at CrushLink.com) Date: 13 Nov 2001 00:51:55 -0000 Subject: CrushLink > Welcome! Message-ID: <20011113005155.25908.qmail@web3.crushlink.com> Dear joe, Welcome to CrushLink! We wish you the best of luck as you search for your secret crush. To manage your CrushList in the future, always sign in to CrushLink with Email address - cypherpunks at toad.com Password - Have fun and good luck! Sincerely, The Crush Master -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 947 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Mon Nov 12 22:59:43 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 00:59:43 -0600 Subject: You've Been Removed! Message-ID: <200111130659.AAA32692@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the removal of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com from the Nurse-zine mailing list. We're sorry to see you go! If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to add yourself automatically, or click on the link below to automatically re-subscribe yourself: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?add=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Mon Nov 12 23:00:01 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 01:00:01 -0600 Subject: You've Been Added! Message-ID: <200111130700.BAA32710@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the addition of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com to the Nurse-zine mailing list. If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to remove yourself automatically, or click the link below: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?remove=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 13 01:22:01 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 01:22:01 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <20011113003406.A27979@cluebot.com> References: <200111130437.XAA10138@mail.lokmail.net> <200111130437.XAA10138@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011113012021.032e1ba0@idiom.com> At 12:34 AM 11/13/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Says in the relevant section: > 11460. (a) Any two or more persons who assemble as a paramilitary >organization for the purpose of practicing with weapons shall be >punished by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one >year or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars by both. So the Boy Scout rifle range I went to as a kid would get busted if they were doing the same in California today? > As used in this subdivision, "paramilitary organization" means an >organization which is not an agency of the United States government >or of the State of California, or which is not a private school >meeting the requirements set forth in Section 12154 of the Education >Code, but which engages in instruction or training in guerilla >warfare or sabotage, or which, as an organization, engages in rioting >or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with, >school activities. > >Faustine's loose definition of "paramilitary training" may seem to >apply, but if you read carefully, the legal definition used in the >California penal code is a bit narrower. What a relief! :-) From measl at mfn.org Mon Nov 12 23:24:29 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 01:24:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Unconstitutional nonsense. > > So, Agent Faustine, report me. > > I wish I'd had your report to distribute to the group on Friday night. > Adding your name to the checklist of enemies would have been useful, but > at the time I didn't think you were quite as much of an enemy as the > obvious names. For those of you whou were unable to make out that faint sound, that was Richard Nixon rolling around in his box, laughing his maggots off! > --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org Now an Offical Hate Group: http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/secpubs/computer.pdf From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 13 01:29:47 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 01:29:47 -0800 Subject: List still alive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011113012637.032e0880@idiom.com> At 12:40 PM 11/12/2001 -0500, cubic-dog wrote: > Messages came to a screeching halt on the 10th. While I'm not seeing a huge amount of traffic, there are flame wars :-) Probably too many people away for the weekend at the Subversiveness Training Seminar In The Sierras, or at the Cypherpunks Cocaine Importing Seminar in San Francisco, or taking a break to write code, or generally sleeping off a rainy weekend... From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Tue Nov 13 01:02:41 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 03:02:41 -0600 Subject: You've Been Removed! Message-ID: <200111130902.DAA06742@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the removal of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com from the Nurse-zine mailing list. We're sorry to see you go! If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to add yourself automatically, or click on the link below to automatically re-subscribe yourself: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?add=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From petro at bounty.org Tue Nov 13 03:56:51 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 03:56:51 -0800 Subject: Security-by-credential or security-by-inspection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <863EF106-D82D-11D5-817E-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Thursday, November 8, 2001, at 04:10 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote: > There are so many misconceptions floating around here it's hard to know > where to begin. But let's start with two points of agreement. > > First, airport screening is far from perfect. There is no way to detect > all possible threats coming on the airplane. And given the technology > and time available, it will always be possible to smuggle aboard knives, > explosives and other dangerous devices more than sufficient to risk the > lives of everyone on that airplane. > > Second, no ID based system is perfect, either. People can falsify their > ID with varying degrees of expense and difficulty. Moving to biometrics > can help but these can be spoofed as well. > > But to conclude from these points that we should just let everyone > walk onto a plane with no more than the cursory inspection that has > been used in the past is pure bullshit. Absence of perfection is no No, it isn't. Since the rise of terrorism as a common practice among the worlds political underclass, what percentage of passengers died or were injured in such incidents? I'd bet (I don't have the relevant numbers at hand) that it approaches (but of course does not reach) 0.0 percent. And even further, I'd be that if *no* checks were done, that the number would drop even further, airline costs would drop (no need for expensive x-ray machines and expensive security guard payrolls (yes, I know they aren't paid that well, but to maintain the numbers of security personnel, support personnel for the security personnel etc. is expensive). The vast majority of people are not terrorists, are not willing to die for a cause, and are generally too afraid of the Law to commit dangerous levels of violence on an aircraft. > argument against a system. Someone once said that "all cryptography > is economics." Well, all security is economics as well. Any argument > which is based on the fact that loopholes and failures will exist is > irrelevant. The point of security is to raise the cost of breaching it. > That's all. Understanding and accepting this would raise the level of > the dialog considerably. While the above is relatively true, there are not, and would not be "Airline Hackers" as you have "Computer Hackers" today. The marginal cost of compromising a computer system is fairly small for the gains received, you don't have to leave home, you rarely get caught, you can get scripts which all you to try thousands of systems an hour etc. None of this applies to the Airline sphere. The costs are massively greater, as are the risks. You cannot "anonymously" hijack a plane (although planting a bomb could still be done) (side note, how hard would it be to bomb a US Postal service plane using several small packages all mailed to the same town, all set with a pressure sensitive switch what would cause the explosion at a certain air pressure?) you have to be there in person to wave the weapon around, and you expose yourself directly to a bunch of people who really don't want you to succeed. If even one of them is armed, you are going to fail miserably. > Given this fact, it makes no sense to intentionally blind screeners > to relevant data when performing their security analysis. Those guards > should have every scrap of information possible available to them. > People > who have a history of violence, who make threats, who are associates How many people who have a "history of violence" (i.e. beat the shit out of a drunk pawing their date) fly routinely and never cause a problem? > with known terrorists, all represent correspondingly greater risks. > An efficient screening system will use this information to determine > how carefully each passenger is examined. An efficient police system would have 92% if the population behind bars. > Resources are finite, and it is highly inefficient to apply exactly the Resources are sufficient to give each passenger a .41 derringer loaded with 2 .410 shot shells. No more planes will be hijacked. Guaranteed. > same procedure to each individual. You'll have far more security for > the > same cost by allocating greater security resources to those individuals > who pose the greatest risk based on the data available. They are the > ones > who need their bags hand-searched. They need the metal detector wand > run > over their entire bodies. They can empty their pockets and have their > shoes removed and inspected. It is not practical to apply this level of > scrutiny to every passenger. But by making use of public information, > high risk individuals can be subjected to high levels of inspection. They are also the most likely to have the resources and connections to spoof the system. > Some have claimed to object only because the government is involved in > the search. That's a red herring in this case. Yes, the government is > setting security policies, but they are only responding to public > demand. They are generating the public demand. > Any fully private security system would see the same kinds of checks in > order to get the flying public back into the air. No one wants to fly > with someone who has a history of calling for the violent overthrow of > the U.S. government at a time when planes are being turned into guided > missiles. I don't want to fly on an airline who treats any passenger as a fucking criminal, who insists on a background check before boarding. And I'm putting my money where my mouth is. In december I plan on riding to the midwest to see my daughter, 2000-2500 miles each way in winter on a rather small bike *just* so I don't have to deal with the airlines and give them even more of my money. > What about Chaum credentials? Well, how would they help? Are you > going to show a not-a-terrorist credential? No one is in a position > to issue such a thing. And even if you had one, how would you prove If no one is in a position to issue such a thing, then no one is in a position to institute the kind of data-gathering you would need for your scheme. > When confronted with an unpleasant reality, cypherpunks retreat into > their imaginary world of abstractions. That doesn't help when planes > are falling from the skies. Try to stick with reality for a few minutes Really? how many have "fallen" in the last 30 years? And how many of those were mechanical failures as opposed to terrorist acts? "Planes are falling from the skies" is rhetorical fecees. Our government, and our country got the military equivelent of a black eye. Yes, it hurts, yes it's embarassing as all hell, but it's being used as an excuse for all the police state bullshit that the fascists under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush wanted. And you're at the trough lapping it up. -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Tue Nov 13 02:03:15 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 04:03:15 -0600 Subject: You've Been Added! Message-ID: <200111131003.EAA09785@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the addition of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com to the Nurse-zine mailing list. If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to remove yourself automatically, or click the link below: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?remove=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From jokes at freeall.com Tue Nov 13 05:08:38 2001 From: jokes at freeall.com (Free4all Jokes) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 05:08:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joke of the Day! Message-ID: <20011113130838.89037.qmail@web12408.mail.yahoo.com> --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- CLICK HERE FOR THOUSANDS OF JOKES OR TO SUBSCRIBE TO JOKE OF THE DAY --------------------------------- If you do not wish to receive this mail please unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to the unsubscribe address. Your unsubscribe address: jokes-unsubscribe-cypherpunks=toad.com at bob.free4all.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1124 bytes Desc: not available URL: From CrushMaster at CrushLink.com Mon Nov 12 22:52:02 2001 From: CrushMaster at CrushLink.com (CrushMaster at CrushLink.com) Date: 13 Nov 2001 06:52:02 -0000 Subject: CrushLink > Get a THIRD Hint Message-ID: <20011113065202.16437.qmail@web3.crushlink.com> Congratulations! Since you recently became a member, we figured you could use a new THIRD hint! Just visit: http://www.CrushLink.com/newhint.php3 Good luck getting a CrushLink! Sincerely, The Crush Master -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 950 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Tue Nov 13 05:19:59 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:19:59 -0600 Subject: You've Been Removed! Message-ID: <200111131319.HAA18672@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the removal of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com from the Nurse-zine mailing list. We're sorry to see you go! If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to add yourself automatically, or click on the link below to automatically re-subscribe yourself: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?add=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From sales at ediforall.com Tue Nov 13 08:54:32 2001 From: sales at ediforall.com (EDI) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:54:32 PST Subject: Paper documents is your past. EDI messages is our future. Message-ID: <1595$999219783670864$10$0@exploder1.em5000.com> � An EDI software solution so advanced, it's simple The world's most advanced EDI trade software solution. A simple solution for B2B integration. A simple solution for electronic messages between trading partners. A simple import export software solution. An affordable worldwide business communication solution that includes 194 approved UN/EDIFACT messages and 95 Business Forms. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4125 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ericm at lne.com Tue Nov 13 09:09:18 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:09:18 -0800 Subject: Cypherpunks Rating System In-Reply-To: <908829314e42266afb7f48d6007b0b6c@dizum.com>; from nobody@dizum.com on Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 09:40:26AM +0100 References: <908829314e42266afb7f48d6007b0b6c@dizum.com> Message-ID: <20011113090918.A12871@slack.lne.com> On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 09:40:26AM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Cypherpunk Rating System [..] Go for it-- set up your own CDR with the rating system implemented. http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/ tells you how to set up a CDR and if you have any questions you can ask me or Jim. The only way to make it happen is to actually implement it yourself. Eric From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Nov 13 09:28:06 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:28:06 -0800 Subject: Cypherpunks Rating System Message-ID: <3BF15826.D66B39E4@lsil.com> Eric Murray wrote : >On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 09:40:26AM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: >> Cypherpunk Rating System > >[..] > >Go for it-- set up your own CDR with the rating system implemented. > >http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/ tells you how to set up a CDR >and if you have any questions you can ask me or Jim. > >The only way to make it happen is to actually implement it yourself. > >Eric > The Historical Guide Declan suggested would be far more interesting. From nobody at dizum.com Tue Nov 13 00:40:26 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:40:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cypherpunks Rating System Message-ID: <908829314e42266afb7f48d6007b0b6c@dizum.com> Cypherpunk Rating System The Platform for Internet Content Selection (PICS) is a W3C initiative to provide for labeling content on the internet. Initially designed as an alternative to the Communications Decency Act and similar legislation intended to protect children from objectionable content, PICS allows both self-labeling and third-party labeling of web pages. The most widely used rating system is that provided by the Internet Content Rating Association, www.icra.org, which replaces the older RSACi system (not the crypto RSA, it stood for Recreational Software Association). There is also the hilarious Vancouver rating system at http://vancouver-webpages.com/VWP1.0/VWP1.0.gen.html, which gives points for Multiculturalism ("Active involvement of user in multicultural activity using interactive techniques"), Environmental Awareness, Tolerance, Safety ("Active promotion of safe work and personal behaviour"), and of course, the highly important Canadian Content rating. Clearly these rating systems are either Puritanical or politically correct to an obnoxious degree. Nevertheless the notion of providing additional information about the content of an article is valid within the cypherpunk worldview. Content labels can usefully add to the information present in the Subject and From fields. This information can then be used on an individual basis to filter content. Killfiles are an obvious application of this approach, and in fact certain writers have effectively disappeared from the lists for an ever-increasing number of subscribers. Filtering based on content labels is no more in conflict with cypherpunk goals and ideals than killfiling the likes of Choate. Although PICS was designed for web pages, it can be used for mailing list postings as well. The W3C pages at http://www.w3c.org/PICS provide a simple mechanism for passing PICS ratings in any RFC822 (now RFC2822) environment (that is, email). A new header is defined, PICS-Label, which is followed by the relevant information. The PICS syntax is reasonably compact, however it includes a URL which provides a human readable description of the meaning of the labels. A sample label might be: PICS-Label: (PICS-1.1 "http://www.cypherpunks.to/" l r (topics tpg ap pp)) The header is followed by the URL which defines the rating system. l means labels and r means ratings, and then the ratings themselves are in parentheses, using the rules defined at the URL. This example uses an unordered list of topic keywords which follow the word "topics", which are defined below. More complex ratings systems can be defined allowing numerical evaluation on a variety of scales. Those ideas may be worth pursuing. But to start with, here are some possible topic categories with their associated keywords for the ratings tuple: Topic categories, which follow the word "topics": e Encryption ap Anonymity/pseudonymity tc Technical crypto cob Cypherpunk oriented businesses tpg Threats to privacy by government tpng Threats to privacy by business and NGOs gb guns/bombs bt booby traps pp Political parties pe Political elections Clearly it would be highly ironic for a pro-privacy group like the cypherpunks to adopt PICS technology, which has been widely criticized by free speech groups. Nevertheless it would be instructive to have an example where ratings are used for the opposite of the politically correct purposes for which they were originally intended. Cypherpunks could use PICS to help find information on defeating government surveillance and interfering with the increasing crackdowns on civil liberties. Even if the system is not used much, the act of defining the vocabulary could set a useful precedent. It might even be possible to convince the W3C to link to the cypherpunks rating system, since they were willing to link to Vancouver. Then anyone who researches this topic will be exposed to the cypherpunk view of the world. Suggestions for expanding the rating system are welcome. "I write about what I desire to write about." - Tim May From Uran233 at aol.com Tue Nov 13 07:40:32 2001 From: Uran233 at aol.com (Uran233 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:40:32 EST Subject: Starium Message-ID: Anyone have any of the Beta units for sale. I have 2 and would like more. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 13 07:45:49 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:45:49 -0500 Subject: Cypherpunks Rating System Message-ID: > Nomen Nescio[SMTP:nobody at dizum.com] wrote: > > Cypherpunk Rating System [...] > Clearly it would be highly ironic for a pro-privacy group like the > cypherpunks to adopt PICS technology, which has been widely criticized > by free speech groups. Nevertheless it would be instructive to have an > example where ratings are used for the opposite of the politically correct > purposes for which they were originally intended. Cypherpunks could > use PICS to help find information on defeating government surveillance > and interfering with the increasing crackdowns on civil liberties. > [...] > Suggestions for expanding the rating system are welcome. ----------------------- How about suggestions to drop the whole idea? (I'm sort of reminded of the classic Crumb cartoon: A bunch of hippies sitting around a room, and one of them says "I've got a great idea: Everyone stop playing head games with each other, starting now!") This is a Really Bad Idea, for a number of reasons. 1. Any system of normalized 'voluntary' labeling has a habit of becoming effectively mandatory - see the content ratings on movies, and now video games and records. How'd you like to see the sorts of ratings you're proposing applied to books and magazines? I don't want to see pissing matches over whether Alice applied the right lables, in Bob's opinion. 2. Content drifts on this list, rapidly and frequently. 'Enemy at the door' started out with a truly stupid and dangerous idea for a face-recognition based booby trap, and finished as a discussion of long-haul 802.11b networks. Asking every person posting to spend time considering detailed and accurate labeling for every post they make is hopeless. 3. Irony, allegory, and insinuation are an integral part of activity on this type of mailing list, and by their nature, cannot be accurately captured by a rating system. Don't misapply a system created for more-or-less static standalone web pages to a freewheeling discussion list where each message cannot be properly understood except in light of a lot of context and history. 4. The things people complain about are usually much less about topic, then they are complaints about other poster's positions on a given topic. We don't bitch too much about postings concerning physics (which are pretty off-topic), but we waste a lot of bits on bitching about Choate's version of physics. This kind of thing is also not really captured by a self-applied rating system. I'm all in favor of informative Subject lines, but to systematize something just for the sake of systematizing it is pointless petty authoritarianism. Just what *problem* are you trying to solve, anyway? Peter Trei From declan at well.com Tue Nov 13 07:59:08 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:59:08 -0500 Subject: Cypherpunks Rating System In-Reply-To: <908829314e42266afb7f48d6007b0b6c@dizum.com>; from nobody@dizum.com on Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 09:40:26AM +0100 References: <908829314e42266afb7f48d6007b0b6c@dizum.com> Message-ID: <20011113105908.A18170@cluebot.com> On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 09:40:26AM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Clearly it would be highly ironic for a pro-privacy group like the > cypherpunks to adopt PICS technology, which has been widely criticized > by free speech groups. Nevertheless it would be instructive to have an > example where ratings are used for the opposite of the politically correct > purposes for which they were originally intended. Cypherpunks could > use PICS to help find information on defeating government surveillance > and interfering with the increasing crackdowns on civil liberties. Feel free to append ratings to your own posts, and if you like, create a cypherpunks-nomen list that includes a full message feed but delayed until you can get around to typing up PICS tags for each post. Or you could start a Slash-like website where you (or registered users) could add or delete PICS tags from each cypherpunks post that is gatewayed to the site. Nobody's stopping you. Naturally such a project is silly and not worth the time it would take to design, let alone implement. The number of people using PICS as a search or retrieval tool for cypherpunks posts would approach one, you. (If you really wanted to do something that might be useful, you'd pick the more interesting threads from the dawn of the list, insert them into a good search utility, and make that available for searching and .tar.gz downloading.') Anyway, there are better ways to make "highly ironic" points, if that's your only goal. -Declan From baptista at pccf.net Tue Nov 13 08:04:23 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:04:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Al Jazeera plans version in English Message-ID: Finally - real british style news reporting and real journalism to balance the constant jibberish one see's on CNN and for that matter most of the north american news channels. joe Source: The Telegraph - UK Type: Web Pointer; Sample URL: http://news.telegraph.co.uk Date: 12 Nov 2001 Title: Al Jazeera plans version in English TEXT: Al Jazeera plans version in English By Charles Clover in Doha (Filed: 12/11/2001) THE only television station broadcasting live from Taliban-held areas of Afghanistan plans to introduce an English version early next year. Al Jazeera, based in Qatar, has around 15 million viewers a day in the Arab world, including satellite subscribers in the West. But, as it broadcasts in Arabic, it does not have the global audiences that broadcasting in English could bring it. Clips from Al Jazeera's footage of the bombing of Kabul and the video messages sent by Osama bin Laden to its office in Kabul have been used by networks around the world, including the BBC, ITN, CNN and Sky News. But the station has been accused by Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, and Tony Blair of screening broadcasts which could contain coded messages and Taliban propaganda without a critical commentary. Ibrahim Hilal, the 32-year-old Egyptian editor-in-chief of the station, said he was under intense pressure from managers to launch English language broadcasts by January. He thought March was more realistic. He denies allegations of bias: "We give time to anybody in this crisis. If the Archbishop of Canterbury has something to say he will be on my screen. We had him the other day." ) Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2001. http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2001%2F11%2F12%2Fwalj12.xml Joe Baptista http://www.dot-god.com/ The dot.GOD Registry, Limited From memcs1103 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 13 11:23:16 2001 From: memcs1103 at yahoo.com (-EMC-) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:23:16 -0800 Subject: -**Targeted Emails, FREE Software, Servers Message-ID: <200111131727.LAA10401@einstein.ssz.com> ===================================== New Special~ FREE Stealth Mass Mailer with orders of 250,000! One Month FREE Subscription to 5-10 Bulletproof mail servers/day M-F! (never lose your ISP again!) ===================================== - FRESH 10,000 List TODAY!! 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SEE SITE for more details and pricing! ----------------------------------------------- - SPECIALS! - ---------------------- **FREE with EVERY order: Demo of ListMan e-mail manager software **Orders of 50,000 or more: FREE copy Express Mail Server to send your messages! -This is not a demo but a permanent license for the software! **Orders of 200,000 : - Resale Rights for EMS! -->You keep 100% of the profits - InfoDisk with 1000+ Money Making Reports - CheckMAN software _______________________________________________________________ To be removed from future mailings: mailto:memcs1103 at yahoo.com?Subject=Remove From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 13 11:41:58 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:41:58 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <200111131920.OAA25756@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <8010F8EC-D86E-11D5-BCE8-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, November 13, 2001, at 11:20 AM, Faustine wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Tim wrote: > On Monday, November 12, 2001, at 08:42 PM, Faustine wrote: >> Why talk about it though? The sheer satisfaction of imagining feds and >> sheeple crapping their pants in fearful anticipation? Even if nothing >> happened at all, you have to realize unsympathetic people who aren't >> in on >> your peculiar brand of humor are going to take things like this at >> face value >> and hold it against you. You risk getting slapped around with the anti- >> paramilitary training statutes whether you're kidding or not. > >> I'm not kidding. I was there from Friday morning to last night. > > Fine. I dont know why you seem to be missing my point: being provoked > into > incriminating yourself by an anonymous troll is an entirely different > issue > from discussing the substance of whatever it is you happen to be doing. No, _you_ miss the point: that I was not "incriminating" myself in any way. You and your kind need to read up on Burroughs' "The Policeman Inside." "If we do not censor ourselves, others will do it for us." "Cypherpunks should voluntarily restrict the topics they discuss." "We should impose voluntary self-labeling of all posts, so that Congress will not." "I must not think certain thoughts, and I must report others who do." > > I just happen to have this gut-level common sense belief that if people > might > be able to use something against any given person, it's > counterproductive and > potentially dangerous to broadcast it the way you always do. Ah, weapons training by me and my friends is somehow counterproductive and dangerous? The fact that the First and Second Amendments protect such activities is counterproductive and dangerous to you? Please explain how my one paragraph summary of my weekend activities provided "dangerous" people with knowledge they didn't already have. Your "policeman inside" has been getting way too loud. Stop listening to her or him. > Having moral > courage is one thing, playing straight into the hands of people who > wish you > ill is quite another. It's none of my business what you do, but I'll be > damned > if I don't have the right to say I think you're making a mistake by > talking > about it. Your concern for me is touching, but it is inappropropriate. Some kind of chick thing, I guess. Butt out. Also, your comments were a lot more than concerns about me. You also implied that my exercise of my fundamental rights of free speech, free association, Second Amendment rights, etc. was somehow putting the list and its members at risk. >> As for "getting slapped around," I presume you plan to back this up >> with >> something more than your "intuition"? > > It's not about intuition, just reading the news and putting two and two > together. Everything I've seen about what's happening these days > indicates that > law enforcement will be looking for any excuse they can find to crack > down on > people they don't like. If they can keep people off planes for moronic > reasons > like reading Hayduke and Harry Potter, what else are they going to do > with > what's already on the books? It's probably just a bad case of > pantscrapping > paranoia, but I still think it's better to think a few steps ahead. > > If you'll look at the archives, we had this conversation a few months > ago. > Nothing has changed. > Why do you continue to waste our time, then? And since you have repeatedly urged that I simply filter you out, I say, "Physician, heal thyself." Meanwhile, I'll continue to talk about what I think is important. All of you who are calling for restraint, for self-labeling, for installing new moderators...I suggest you either start a new mailing list or set up a CDR node implementing your policies on restraint, labeling, and niceness. --Tim May "They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the vote." --Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw the USA-PATRIOT Bill before voting overwhelmingly to imposed a police state From declan at well.com Tue Nov 13 09:09:29 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 12:09:29 -0500 Subject: Stimson Center demands gvt censorship of chemical-data websites Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011113120902.0224d030@mail.well.com> They're talking about private websites not operated by the government: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02788.html From CrushMaster at CrushLink.com Tue Nov 13 04:53:07 2001 From: CrushMaster at CrushLink.com (CrushMaster at CrushLink.com) Date: 13 Nov 2001 12:53:07 -0000 Subject: CrushLink > GET THE BEST HINT EVER! Message-ID: <20011113125307.18989.qmail@web3.crushlink.com> Hello joe, Newsflash! To bring together even more happy couples, we just introduced the BEST HINT EVER! This is what you've been waiting for. . . GO TO: http://www.CrushLink.com/besthint.php3 Don't miss out on this golden chance to find out your secret crush! Sincerely, The Crush Master --- PS. We thought you'd like this opportunity since you're a CrushLink user; you can block further messages @ http://www.CrushLink.com/block.php3 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1258 bytes Desc: not available URL: From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Tue Nov 13 13:13:19 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:13:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTF is this ? Message-ID: <20011113211319.38479.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, code, but *which* code ? http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&frame=right&rnum=21&thl=1466527157,1466527137,1466524266,1466521479,1466521461,1466417529,1466401140,1466382525,1466348789,1466289386,1466258668,1466241447&seekm=df083aa691350f7f52aeefd56659cbe0%40Leposternon.org In case URL gets broken, here it is separated by newlines (combine into a single string): http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&frame=right&rnum=21&thl= 1466527157,1466527137,1466524266,1466521479,1466521461,1466417529, 1466401140,1466382525,1466348789,1466289386,1466258668,1466241447&seekm= df083aa691350f7f52aeefd56659cbe0%40Leposternon.org ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com From frissell at panix.com Tue Nov 13 10:29:21 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:29:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Stimson Center demands gvt censorship of chemical-data websites In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011113120902.0224d030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: What a laugh. The only reason this info is available is because the Feds mandated "Right to Know". If corporate privacy had been protected, there'd be no problem. Note some of the other implications. Thanks to Megan's Law, terrorists know where to get child molestors to recruit for attacks on America's children. Thanks to the existence of the Social Security System terrorists have the SS Death Index to steal the identities of the dead with. Thanks to the SEC, terrorists can use Bill Gate's SS# (539-60-5125) to take over Microsoft. Thanks to Medical Licensure, anti-abortion zealots can find abortionists to kill. All this mandated record keeping and disclosure is very dangerous. DCF On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > They're talking about private websites not operated by the government: > http://www.politechbot.com/p-02788.html From faustine at lokmail.net Tue Nov 13 11:20:28 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:20:28 -0500 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: <200111131920.OAA25756@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 3647 bytes Desc: not available URL: From agents at acceptcardsinstant.com Tue Nov 13 15:11:20 2001 From: agents at acceptcardsinstant.com (agents at acceptcardsinstant.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:11:20 Subject: ADV:BANKCARD AGENT PROGRAM Message-ID: <185.591367.410986@unknown> ******************************************************* To be removed from further mailing please respond with "remove" in the subject line. ******************************************************* Dear Bankcard Agent/Friend, This email is being sent to you regarding a BRAND NEW Bankcard/Merchant Account program that is going to change the Bankcard industry. The bankcard industry has gone through a colossal slow down over the last year. Banks are difficult to work with, getting your merchants merchant numbers is nearing the point of impossibility and the entire process of getting merchant accounts has become entirely too difficult. THE DAYS OF THIS ARE OVER! 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The new way to get a merchant account is finally here JUMP ON IT! If you are interested in learning more about this new program please respond to this email with your NAME, PHONE # and best time to call and a representative will contact you to discuss this program with you. mailto:agents at acceptcardsinstant.com From Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn Tue Nov 13 15:13:44 2001 From: Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn (Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:13:44 Subject: 40 Million Emails, Bulk Hosting, Bulk Mailing & Much More.. Message-ID: <200111132205.OAA05686@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mattd at useoz.com Mon Nov 12 20:15:31 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:15:31 +1100 Subject: Re;fbi wants to believe in domestic terrorists Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011113145536.00a50e00@pop.useoz.com> "cypherpunks is an "unprecedented, according to law enforcement sources, alliance of left and right extremist hate groups." Declans: Left wing,right wing,same bird.Watch for claws and droppings.While trad anarchists had a bad run with the left authoritarians theres zero evidence of them running into the arms of the right.Its interesting how many libertarians have outed themselves as facists recently.From my distance an alliance of city communes and country militia seems the best shot you have to overthrow the totalitarian coup.This could mean an exchange of hostages and some basic rules on the inevitable incidents.Theres a lot to learn from the collapse of communist totalitarianism,the coup should be discredited quite soon.Like jim said it doesnt have to be 'wild in the streets'.South africa and east germany were 2 of the most fantasticly bad regimes on earth,yet they fell,as will this one.Keep cool,minimise violence and set limits.LETS ROCK and ROLL! "Anarchy is not some fanciful idea, something for philosophers and mystics to ponder. Anarchy only has meaning when it is lived." From ign at ign.com Tue Nov 13 15:28:55 2001 From: ign at ign.com (ign at ign.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:28:55 PST Subject: Xbox Midnight Madness [11.14.01] References: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2662 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Nov 13 16:09:16 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:09:16 -0800 Subject: Soldiers Celebrate with executions Message-ID: <3BF1B62C.3000F05B@lsil.com> Golly gee willikers, you mean it's not all beard-shaving, turban-tossing, music and dancing in the streets? You mean our own news agencies were just spewing propaganda? Now ain't that a surprise? Why do you suppose they would do that? From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 13 16:38:11 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:38:11 -0800 Subject: Soldiers Celebrate with executions In-Reply-To: <3BF1B62C.3000F05B@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 13, 2001, at 04:09 PM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Golly gee willikers, you mean it's not all beard-shaving, > turban-tossing, music and dancing in the streets? You mean our own news > agencies were just spewing propaganda? Now ain't that a surprise? Why do > you suppose they would do that? > Why is anyone surprised? Isn't it what many in these united states are hoping for when the statist occupiers in Washington, D.C. are dealt with? Heads on pikes, gallows on the Mall, crematoria in Anacostia? At least a hundred thousand Taliban will be liquidated in the coming weeks. --Tim May "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound" From declan at well.com Tue Nov 13 13:48:31 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:48:31 -0500 Subject: Congress moves swiftly to thwart terrorism, protect liberty Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011113164804.0223c6e0@mail.well.com> U.S. House of Representatives Committee on the Judiciary F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., Chairman _______________________________________ www.house.gov/judiciary News Advisory For immediate release Contact: Jeff Lungren/Terry Shawn November 13, 2001 202-225-2492 Crime Subcommittee Hearing and Markup Wednesday on Terrorism-Related Bills What: Legislative hearing on: H.R. 3275, the "Implementation Legislation for the International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings and the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism," followed immediately by Markup of H.R. 3275 and H.R. 3209, the "Anti-Hoax Terrorism Act of 2001." Who: Subcommittee on Crime - Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Tex.), Chairman When: 10:00 a.m., Wednesday, November 14, 2001 Where: 2237 Rayburn Building H.R. 3275 is legislation implementing two international treaties cracking down on terrorism that have been signed by the United States and are expected to be ratified by the Senate in the very near future. The International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings requires parties to the treaty to criminalize the act of terrorist bombing aimed at public or governmental facilities, or public transportation or infrastructure facilities and to either prosecute or extradite any person within their jurisdiction who engages in these bombings. Violators would be subject to up to life in prison, and if death results from the violation, up to life in prison or the death penalty. The International Convention for the Suppression of Financing of Terrorism requires nations to criminalize the act of collecting or providing funds with the intention that they will be used to support acts of international terrorists. The Convention imposes binding legal obligations upon nations either to prosecute or extradite any person within their jurisdiction who unlawfully and willfully provides or collects funds with the intention that they should be used to carry out various terrorist activities. H.R. 3275 subjects violators to up to twenty years in prison and fines of at least $10,000. Witnesses: Mr. Michael Chertoff, Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, U.S. Justice Department; others TBA. H.R. 3209 would make it a felony for an individual who engages in a hoax with the intent to convey false or misleading information that there is or will be a chemical, biological, nuclear or weapon of mass destruction attack. Violators would be subject to up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000. ##30## Terry A. Shawn Press Secretary Committee on the Judiciary U.S. House of Representatives 202-225-2492 From agents at acceptcardsinstant.com Tue Nov 13 16:55:57 2001 From: agents at acceptcardsinstant.com (agents at acceptcardsinstant.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:55:57 Subject: ADV:BANKCARD AGENT PROGRAM Message-ID: <587.701368.869931@unknown> ******************************************************* To be removed from further mailing please respond with "remove" in the subject line. ******************************************************* Dear Bankcard Agent/Friend, This email is being sent to you regarding a BRAND NEW Bankcard/Merchant Account program that is going to change the Bankcard industry. The bankcard industry has gone through a colossal slow down over the last year. Banks are difficult to work with, getting your merchants merchant numbers is nearing the point of impossibility and the entire process of getting merchant accounts has become entirely too difficult. THE DAYS OF THIS ARE OVER! A NEW PROGRAM PASSED ALL OF THE TESTS and is changing the way you can operate your bankcard business and virtually triple your sales overnight. The: INSTANT APPROVAL AND INSTANT MERCHANT NUMBERS ARE HERE! THE DIGITAL SIGNATURE AND INSTANT MERCHANT ACCOUNT NUMBER has arrived. That's right Brand new bankcard program allows your customers to simply fill out an application online and receive an instant merchant number, NO UNDERWRITING, NO WAITING, an immediate APPROVAL with live processing in about 60 minutes. 99% of all applicants are approved and most HIGH RISK businesses are also accepted! No need to fax a driver�s license, checks, or other information to get your merchant approved. Everything is online with a proprietary software system only available through this program. This program has been tested and has been virtually perfected. A true 99% of all business types and merchants can get accounts through this program INSTANTLY. There are limited agent openings for this program until next year, so act now. Look and see the advantage of this program: THIS TECHNOLOGY IS THE NEWEST AND ULTIMATE TOOL TO HIT THE BANKCARD INDUSTRY SINCE IT'S INCEPTION! Your sales will virtually triple overnight! Complete lifetime residuals and revenue sharing programs including minimum splits! Low, Low buy rates and discount rates. No more waiting for merchant numbers. Instant approvals and numbers are LIVE in 15-60 minutes. Your own online application private labeled with your name and specific rates on it. Use your own gateway, software and hardware. No signature, check or other information needed for your merchant to receive a merchant account! Receive pre-approved leads already with merchant numbers and an approved discount rate. All you have to do is sell or lease the equipment and the residuals are yours! All issuing of merchant numbers are done by the processor. No Middleman! And much much more... The new way to get a merchant account is finally here JUMP ON IT! If you are interested in learning more about this new program please respond to this email with your NAME, PHONE # and best time to call and a representative will contact you to discuss this program with you. mailto:agents at acceptcardsinstant.com From declan at well.com Tue Nov 13 14:13:32 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:13:32 -0500 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <200111131920.OAA25756@mail.lokmail.net>; from faustine@lokmail.net on Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 02:20:28PM -0500 References: <200111131920.OAA25756@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <20011113171332.A28341@cluebot.com> On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 02:20:28PM -0500, Faustine wrote: > It sure is. That's why I think (and have always openly said, here and > everywhere) we need more pro-freedom policy analysts in Washington. Of course, if you're a hardcore libertarian ("abolish all unconstitutional federal agencies, and that's most of 'em! let's revert back to the firearms laws we had 150 years ago!"), then you don't get listened to. Having more "pro freedom policy analysts" in Washington won't accomplish much until other things change too. -Declan From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 13 15:18:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:18:37 -0600 Subject: The Register - To be or not to 802.11b... Message-ID: <3BF1AA4D.2B17408C@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/22815.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 13 15:22:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:22:37 -0600 Subject: Soldiers celebrate with executions - smh.com.au - World Message-ID: <3BF1AB3D.97942574@ssz.com> The last sentence is the one of interest... http://www.smh.com.au/news/0111/14/world/world4.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From faustine at lokmail.net Tue Nov 13 14:30:45 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:30:45 -0500 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: <200111132230.RAA16979@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 5228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From agents at acceptcardsinstant.com Tue Nov 13 17:32:08 2001 From: agents at acceptcardsinstant.com (agents at acceptcardsinstant.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:32:08 Subject: ADV:BANKCARD AGENT PROGRAM Message-ID: <428.55735.469601@unknown> ******************************************************* To be removed from further mailing please respond with "remove" in the subject line. ******************************************************* Dear Bankcard Agent/Friend, This email is being sent to you regarding a BRAND NEW Bankcard/Merchant Account program that is going to change the Bankcard industry. The bankcard industry has gone through a colossal slow down over the last year. Banks are difficult to work with, getting your merchants merchant numbers is nearing the point of impossibility and the entire process of getting merchant accounts has become entirely too difficult. THE DAYS OF THIS ARE OVER! A NEW PROGRAM PASSED ALL OF THE TESTS and is changing the way you can operate your bankcard business and virtually triple your sales overnight. The: INSTANT APPROVAL AND INSTANT MERCHANT NUMBERS ARE HERE! THE DIGITAL SIGNATURE AND INSTANT MERCHANT ACCOUNT NUMBER has arrived. That's right Brand new bankcard program allows your customers to simply fill out an application online and receive an instant merchant number, NO UNDERWRITING, NO WAITING, an immediate APPROVAL with live processing in about 60 minutes. 99% of all applicants are approved and most HIGH RISK businesses are also accepted! No need to fax a driver�s license, checks, or other information to get your merchant approved. Everything is online with a proprietary software system only available through this program. This program has been tested and has been virtually perfected. A true 99% of all business types and merchants can get accounts through this program INSTANTLY. There are limited agent openings for this program until next year, so act now. Look and see the advantage of this program: THIS TECHNOLOGY IS THE NEWEST AND ULTIMATE TOOL TO HIT THE BANKCARD INDUSTRY SINCE IT'S INCEPTION! Your sales will virtually triple overnight! Complete lifetime residuals and revenue sharing programs including minimum splits! Low, Low buy rates and discount rates. No more waiting for merchant numbers. Instant approvals and numbers are LIVE in 15-60 minutes. Your own online application private labeled with your name and specific rates on it. Use your own gateway, software and hardware. No signature, check or other information needed for your merchant to receive a merchant account! Receive pre-approved leads already with merchant numbers and an approved discount rate. All you have to do is sell or lease the equipment and the residuals are yours! All issuing of merchant numbers are done by the processor. No Middleman! And much much more... The new way to get a merchant account is finally here JUMP ON IT! If you are interested in learning more about this new program please respond to this email with your NAME, PHONE # and best time to call and a representative will contact you to discuss this program with you. mailto:agents at acceptcardsinstant.com From agents at acceptcardsinstant.com Tue Nov 13 17:41:39 2001 From: agents at acceptcardsinstant.com (agents at acceptcardsinstant.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:41:39 Subject: ADV:BANKCARD AGENT PROGRAM Message-ID: <698.284371.634761@unknown> ******************************************************* To be removed from further mailing please respond with "remove" in the subject line. ******************************************************* Dear Bankcard Agent/Friend, This email is being sent to you regarding a BRAND NEW Bankcard/Merchant Account program that is going to change the Bankcard industry. The bankcard industry has gone through a colossal slow down over the last year. Banks are difficult to work with, getting your merchants merchant numbers is nearing the point of impossibility and the entire process of getting merchant accounts has become entirely too difficult. THE DAYS OF THIS ARE OVER! A NEW PROGRAM PASSED ALL OF THE TESTS and is changing the way you can operate your bankcard business and virtually triple your sales overnight. The: INSTANT APPROVAL AND INSTANT MERCHANT NUMBERS ARE HERE! THE DIGITAL SIGNATURE AND INSTANT MERCHANT ACCOUNT NUMBER has arrived. That's right Brand new bankcard program allows your customers to simply fill out an application online and receive an instant merchant number, NO UNDERWRITING, NO WAITING, an immediate APPROVAL with live processing in about 60 minutes. 99% of all applicants are approved and most HIGH RISK businesses are also accepted! No need to fax a driver�s license, checks, or other information to get your merchant approved. Everything is online with a proprietary software system only available through this program. This program has been tested and has been virtually perfected. A true 99% of all business types and merchants can get accounts through this program INSTANTLY. There are limited agent openings for this program until next year, so act now. Look and see the advantage of this program: THIS TECHNOLOGY IS THE NEWEST AND ULTIMATE TOOL TO HIT THE BANKCARD INDUSTRY SINCE IT'S INCEPTION! Your sales will virtually triple overnight! Complete lifetime residuals and revenue sharing programs including minimum splits! Low, Low buy rates and discount rates. No more waiting for merchant numbers. Instant approvals and numbers are LIVE in 15-60 minutes. Your own online application private labeled with your name and specific rates on it. Use your own gateway, software and hardware. No signature, check or other information needed for your merchant to receive a merchant account! Receive pre-approved leads already with merchant numbers and an approved discount rate. All you have to do is sell or lease the equipment and the residuals are yours! All issuing of merchant numbers are done by the processor. No Middleman! And much much more... The new way to get a merchant account is finally here JUMP ON IT! If you are interested in learning more about this new program please respond to this email with your NAME, PHONE # and best time to call and a representative will contact you to discuss this program with you. mailto:agents at acceptcardsinstant.com From faustine at lokmail.net Tue Nov 13 15:13:32 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:13:32 -0500 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: <200111132313.SAA09112@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1802 bytes Desc: not available URL: From freematt at coil.com Tue Nov 13 15:25:21 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:25:21 -0500 Subject: Waco Prosecutor Admits Lying To Superiors Gets Probation Message-ID: Attorney in Waco case gets probation Prosecutor admits lying to superiors 06/08/2001 By Joe Stange / Associated Press ST. LOUIS - Former federal prosecutor Bill Johnston was sentenced Thursday to two years of probation for withholding information about exploding tear-gas canisters used during the 1993 Branch Davidian siege near Waco. In refusing a federal prosecutor's recommendation of a jail sentence, U.S. District Judge Charles Shaw said Mr. Johnston's motivation did not appear to be devious and also ordered him to perform 200 hours of community service. [...] ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From help at up30.com Tue Nov 13 02:35:01 2001 From: help at up30.com (up30.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:35:01 +0800 (HKT) Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?yc+52M+1zajGvcyoo6y9u8rC0rXF89PRo6zW0NDEtq+0872x?= Message-ID: <4198559.1005647701804.JavaMail.ywh@up2> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6854 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bpayne37 at home.com Tue Nov 13 17:48:41 2001 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:48:41 -0700 Subject: who is operating on michael? References: <003e01c16c6c$047615c0$b5ecb618@sandia1.nm.home.com> <001001c16c8a$7ff90f40$61c9b440@bc.hsia.telus.net> Message-ID: <008201c16cae$7daec6c0$b5ecb618@sandia1.nm.home.com> anita I'm thinking of what John Holovka told me. Holovka was my supervisor in http://jya.com/da/whpda.htm Holovka told me about the REAL SECRET STUFF. Like they knew exactly the health status of Khomeni. Holovka was married three times. Once to my former department manager, Kent Parson, secretary Terri Martinez. Holovka took a "life style" polygraph test. Holovka told me it's the worst thing he ever did in his life. The reason I write this is that that THEY aren't above manipulating a doctor to only remove on part of a tumor so that the remainder can do the job. The cypherpunks have an unparelleled record of posthing this stuff. So let's forward. best bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "anita" To: "bill payne" Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:31 PM Subject: Re: kennedy grey? > Hi Bill, > > Sorry I've been a bit slow to respond, I'm down with food poisoning, the > timing couldn't be much worse. I don't know Kennedy Grey but the name is > ringing familiar. > > We're waiting for confirmation but we have reason to think that Michael may > have had his surgery today. His lawyer called me today and said he was > moved to a surgical unit but we're waiting for word on his situation. > > Thanks for the pix, > > Anita > > ========== > > > Do you know kennedy grey? > > > > Here's some pixs from abq > > > > http://members.home.net/bpayne37/tram/fuji.html > > > > best > > bill > > http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:35 AM > > Subject: Re: weapons here? > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/2/01 12:54:10 AM, bpayne37 at home.com writes: > > > > > > << http://www.rense.com/general15/michaelreconosciuto.htm >> > > > > > > I have a story about Jeff Rense at his site--what a coincidence... > > > > > > Kennedy > > > > > > > > From bpayne37 at home.com Tue Nov 13 18:03:03 2001 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:03:03 -0700 Subject: terrible people References: <003e01c16c6c$047615c0$b5ecb618@sandia1.nm.home.com> <001001c16c8a$7ff90f40$61c9b440@bc.hsia.telus.net> Message-ID: <009001c16cb0$7fa44340$b5ecb618@sandia1.nm.home.com> anita John Young of cryptome http://cryptome.org/ pointed out to me we're into some of the most terrible people in the usa. If not in the world. I'm about 64.5 years. Morales one year younger. So. WE'RE GOING TO FOR IT. DAMNED THE TORPEDOS. Allahu akhbar, cowabunga, 4QU etc. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "anita" To: "bill payne" Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:31 PM Subject: Re: kennedy grey? > Hi Bill, > > Sorry I've been a bit slow to respond, I'm down with food poisoning, the > timing couldn't be much worse. I don't know Kennedy Grey but the name is > ringing familiar. > > We're waiting for confirmation but we have reason to think that Michael may > have had his surgery today. His lawyer called me today and said he was > moved to a surgical unit but we're waiting for word on his situation. > > Thanks for the pix, > > Anita > > ========== > > > Do you know kennedy grey? > > > > Here's some pixs from abq > > > > http://members.home.net/bpayne37/tram/fuji.html > > > > best > > bill > > http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:35 AM > > Subject: Re: weapons here? > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/2/01 12:54:10 AM, bpayne37 at home.com writes: > > > > > > << http://www.rense.com/general15/michaelreconosciuto.htm >> > > > > > > I have a story about Jeff Rense at his site--what a coincidence... > > > > > > Kennedy > > > > > > > > From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Tue Nov 13 09:51:26 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:51:26 +0200 Subject: Fw: NYTimes.com Article: Gun Foes Use Terror Issue in a Push for Stricter Laws Message-ID: <016d01c16c6b$d122e4f0$5300a8c0@marcel> > Gun Foes Use Terror Issue in a Push for Stricter Laws > > November 13, 2001 > > By FOX BUTTERFIELD > > > > > Gun-control organizations have seized on the Sept. 11 > terrorist attacks to argue that any crackdown on terrorism > should include tightening gun laws, particularly the so- > called loophole that allows many people to buy weapons at > gun shows without background checks. > > Although efforts to close the loophole have failed in > Congress, the gun- control groups are hoping to try again > by recasting the issue as one of homeland defense. They > point to several weapons-related arrests of noncitizens, > some with links to terrorist groups, as examples of the > urgency of changing the law. > > On Sept. 10, for example, a jury in Detroit convicted Ali > Boumelhem, a member of the terrorist group Hezbollah, on > charges of conspiring to smuggle guns and ammunition to > Lebanon. The F.B.I. had observed Mr. Boumelhem buying > weapons at gun shows in Michigan. > > Last year, a man accused of being a member of the Irish > Republican Army, Conor Claxton, testified in federal court > in Fort Lauderdale that he had gone to South Florida to buy > guns at gun shows to smuggle to Northern Ireland. > > And on Oct. 30, Muhammad Navid Asrar, a Pakistani, pleaded > guilty in Texas to immigration charges and to illegal > possession of ammunition. The authorities said that in the > last seven years, Mr. Asrar, an illegal immigrant, had > bought several weapons at gun shows, including a Sten > submachine gun, a Ruger Mini- 14 rifle, two pistols and a > hunting rifle. > > Mr. Asrar said he resold the weapons at gun shows, but a > federal grand jury is investigating whether he may be > linked to Al Qaeda terrorists, said Daniel Bueno, the > police chief of Alice, Tex., where Mr. Asrar owned a > convenience store and gasoline station that carried little > merchandise. Mr. Asrar has also aroused the authorities' > suspicion when he asked his employees to take pictures of > tall buildings and mail letters for him from Pennsylvania > back to Texas. > > Matthew Bennett, the director of public affairs for > Americans for Gun Safety, said his group had begun a > campaign to get out the message that because "terrorists > are getting guns at gun shows, it is time for Congress to > act on this issue." > > The campaign, Mr. Bennett said, will include advertising in > publications that members of Congress read, like Roll Call; > working with state gun-safety groups to get voters to call > their senators and representatives; and mailings of > material intended to persuade local politicians to push for > state laws closing the gun-show loophole. > > "Now that we know for certain that terrorists have bought > guns at gun shows," said John Cowan, president of Americans > for Gun Safety, "basic political sense will tell you > Congress needs to act in a bipartisan way to close that > dangerous loophole. This could signal a historic shift in > the gun debate." > > Michael Barnes, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent > Gun Violence, formerly known as Handgun Control, offered a > similar argument. > > "You would think," Mr. Barnes said, "the Congress would > have rushed to address this issue in the aftermath of Sept. > 11, with terrorists having such easy access to guns in the > United States." > > But James Baker, the chief lobbyist for the National Rifle > Association, called the gun-control groups' effort "a > fairly crass attempt to bootstrap their agenda on the > tragedy of Sept. 11." > > The terrorists, Mr. Baker said, commandeered the planes > they crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon > "with box cutters, and I don't see anyone talking about > closing down True Value hardware stores." > > The gun-show loophole exists because federal law, which > requires background checks for anyone buying a gun from a > federally licensed firearms dealer, even at a gun show, > does not require a check for someone who buys a gun from a > private seller at a gun show. Buyers can acquire guns in > those transactions without questions or the need to show > identification. > > Efforts to change the law have failed in Congress, partly > because of concerns by gun-rights advocates that background > checks delay transactions. They can take as long as three > days, and weekend gun shows last only two. Many supporters > of the right to own guns object to any restrictions on > ownership. > > Senator John McCain, who introduced a bill earlier this > year to close the loophole, said in a telephone interview > that after Congress returned from its Christmas recess, he > expected to push again for passage of his bill, perhaps as > part of some homeland defense legislation. > > "I believe the terrorists are exploiting a loophole in our > laws so they don't have to have a background check," > Senator McCain, an Arizona Republican, said. "It is hard to > understand why we don't change this, but the N.R.A. remains > extremely powerful." > > Mr. Baker, the rifle association lobbyist, said these cases > showed that "the system works," because the three men with > terrorist links who bought guns at gun shows were > eventually arrested, even if they were not detected by a > background check. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/13/national/13GUNS.html?ex=1006672454&ei=1&en =5d0b67526ff44150 From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Nov 13 20:34:18 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:34:18 -0800 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: References: <200111130442.XAA12226@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <3BF183CA.3406.33FBE@localhost> -- > > Federal law prohibits paramilitary training and the > > manufacture or transport of weapons with the knowledge or > > intent that they will be used to create a civil > > disturbance. (Ref 10) Federal law differs from most state > > laws prohibiting paramilitary training in that it applies > > only to the trainers, not the trainees. Under most state > > laws governing paramilitary training, participation as a > > trainee is also illegal. On 12 Nov 2001, at 21:38, Tim May wrote: > Unconstitutional nonsense. > > So, Agent Faustine, report me. In my observation, obviously unconstitutional laws tend to be selective applied against people that are unsympathetic, and, most importantly, cannot afford lawyers. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG eZYA39J/SxZX58rliPwWpS60vIeG4es982gl0jKy 4DZuq0YWXG0k1alT3ivx5tFtuw9WjujtxHELLH//+ From nobody at anon.koeln.ccc.de Tue Nov 13 13:17:18 2001 From: nobody at anon.koeln.ccc.de (Hans Acker) Date: 13 Nov 2001 21:17:18 -0000 Subject: Yet More Cypherpunks Fiction (Animal Farm/Handmaid's Tale) References: <3BF0079C.631A331D@cdc.gov> >> Major Variola (ret)[SMTP:mv at cdc.gov] writes: >> Please tell me cdc.gov is *not* a open relay and that our resident microbiologist has 'doctored' his own machine. I don't think our nation can stand another CY53R-T3RR0R12T threat right now. ;-) >> The inet-one.com archives show a Sircam offering which is just too >> humorous to ignore, and which lne.com folks won't see: >> a file called "animal farm novel report.doc.com" >> (which is, of course, infected). >> >[...] > >Humor? I think it's sad. The sad thing, of course, is that 'Eleanor' does >not recognize that Animal Farm is a person-by-person, event-by-event, >allegorization of the Russian Revolution and ensuing events. Such is the >state of modern education. > >Those who will not remember the past.... > >Peter Trei > ".....As I have said elsewhere, there was little that was truly original with or indigenous to Gilead; its genius was synthesis....." The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood portrays a religious-fundamentalist group seizing power in the USA through progressive acts of terrorism. Re-reading it for the umpteenth time, I was surprised at the similarities between the book and recent events. Like 1984, the book took current and past trends, and 'carried them to their logical conclusions'. >From now on, whenever I think about 'Jezebel's' I'll remember the grand finale of Animal Farm. Thanks SirCam! (No cavities!!!) If you can't be kind about history, be vague. -- Quote from "The Handmaid's Tale", by 'anonymous': "I guess that's how they were able to do it, in the way they did, all at once, without anyone knowing beforehand. If there had still been portable money it would have been more difficult. It was after the catastrophe, when they shot the President and machine-gunned the Congress and the army declared a state of emergency. They blamed it on Islamic Fanatics, at the time. Keep calm, they said on television. Everything is under control. I was stunned. Everyone was, I know that. It was hard to believe. The entire government, gone like that. How did they get in, how did it happen? That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary. There wasn't even any rioting in the streets. People stayed home at night, watching television, looking for some direction. There wasn't even an enemy you could put your finger on. Look out, Moira said to me, over the phone. Here it comes. Here what comes? I said. You wait, she said. They've been building up to this. It's you and me up against the wall, baby. She was quoting an expression of my mother's, but she wasn't intending to be funny. Things continued in a state of suspended animation for weeks, although things did happen. Newspapers were censored and some were closed down, for security reasons they said. The roadblocks began to appear, and Identipasses. Everyone approved of that, since it was obvious you couldn't be too careful. They said new elections would be held, but that it would take some time to prepare for them. The thing to do, they said, was to continue on as usual....." Excerpts from "Afghanistan and the United States: Two Early Twenty-First Century Monotheocracies, as Seen Through Diaries," by Prof. James Darcy Pieixoto, Director, Twentieth and Twenty-First Century Archives, Cambridge University, England: speaking June 25, 2195 [The Sons of Jacob Think Tanks] were organized shortly after the recognition of the superpower arms stalemate and the signing of the classified Spheres of Influence Accord, which left the superpowers free to deal, unhampered by interference, with the growing number of rebellions within their own empires. [..] It was [Judd] who suggested the use of an obscure "C.I.A." pamphlet on the destabilization of foreign governments as a strategic handbook for the Sons of Jacob, and he, too, who drew up the early hit-lists of prominent "Americans" of the time. He is also suspected of having orchestrated the President's Day Massacre, which must have required maximum infiltration of the security systems surrounding Congress, and without which the Constitution could never have been suspended. [..] "Its racist policies [..] were firmly rooted in the pre- Gilead period, and racist fears provided some of the emotional fuel that allowed the Gilead takeover to succeed as well as it did. [..] To institute an effective totalitarian system or indeed any system at all you must offer some benefits and freedoms, at least to a privileged few, in return for those you remove. [..] We now return you to your regular programming..... [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/M$-virus-propagation-platform entitled "I send you this file in order to have your device.txt.doc".] From declan at well.com Tue Nov 13 19:21:53 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:21:53 -0500 Subject: Why not to move to DC and become a lobbyist Message-ID: Faustine says: >There's no reason you can't keep your hardcore beliefs to yourself while >doing the most rigorous and objective analysis you can. This is an attractive, but, alas, naive plan. So your closeted-libertarian-analyst presents a "rigorous and objective analysis" saying raising the minimum wage will put people out of work? Your opponents will present someone who argues otherwise. Your analyst says that gun control saves lives? Opponents will ring up Handgun Control. Your analyst says that his interpretation of the Commerce Clause is the correct one? Someone else will cite chapter and verse otherwise. That's even assuming you get equal time, which naturally doesn't happen. DC is a two-party town, and GOP leaders like the size of government just about where it is now. Oh, they might argue it should be reduced five percent at the margins, but the big-government fans still are griping about ONE minor federal agency (OTA) getting axed years ago, so you won't get very far. Look what happened to the 1994 "Republican revolution." Let's not even talk about what some of the expansionist Dems (and some GOPers) would do. Paging Sen. Feinstein... The reality is that sober arguments have little traction in DC. (If they did, we wouldn't be where we are now.) The currencies are votes, money, celebrity. If you can't spend any of those in massive amounts, don't bother showing up. > Sadly enough, you're probably right. > But isn't it about time somebody started trying? I think so. Again, you're naive. Cato, CEI, IHS, IJ, have tried. Victory is not exactly expected anytime soon. Might as well write code, as someone once said. -Declan ----- End forwarded message ----- From MAILER-DAEMON at cluebot.com Tue Nov 13 19:22:20 2001 From: MAILER-DAEMON at cluebot.com (Mail Delivery System) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:22:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender Message-ID: Content-Description: Notification This is the Postfix program at host cluebot.com. I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. For further assistance, please contact If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the message returned below. The Postfix program : host meer.meer.net[209.245.148.2] said: 550 ... User unknown From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Nov 13 22:33:59 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:33:59 -0800 Subject: Soldiers celebrate with executions - smh.com.au - World In-Reply-To: <3BF1AB3D.97942574@ssz.com> Message-ID: <3BF19FD7.28968.70D2D2@localhost> -- t is standard procedure in Afghanistan to kill foreigners who are on the losing side. If they spare afghans they are being more tolerant than usual. Indeed, this represents a major step forward in civilization and humane treatment of the defeated. The old Afghan procedure was that foreign prisoners would be skinned alive by the women. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG wLvOZhIyn/vltWRywoHfFfcnchF8Qq9lQKG55lyK 4x2MLWHvy2+6xXTHhNbcUInGPUh/nhV1YKfkER8gM From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Nov 13 22:39:12 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:39:12 -0800 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: <200111140639.fAE6dC132934@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 08:34 PM 11/13/2001 -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: -- > > Federal law prohibits paramilitary training and the > > manufacture or transport of weapons with the knowledge or > > intent that they will be used to create a civil > > disturbance. (Ref 10) Federal law differs from most state > > laws prohibiting paramilitary training in that it applies > > only to the trainers, not the trainees. Under most state > > laws governing paramilitary training, participation as a > > trainee is also illegal. On 12 Nov 2001, at 21:38, Tim May wrote: > Unconstitutional nonsense. > > So, Agent Faustine, report me. In my observation, obviously unconstitutional laws tend to be selective applied against people that are unsympathetic, and, most importantly, cannot afford lawyers. ------------------------------------------------ Fortunately we can all afford firearms, some of high accuracy, range and penetration. Soon we may all be able to afford tools for individually selective bioagents and WoMD. What these downtrodden need most is a bit of ideological enlightenment and training. Tim, would you care to name your favorite "militia" training web sites? Anyone know if any of the once popular but now out-of-print Palladin books are circulating in e-book form? From declan at well.com Tue Nov 13 20:55:21 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:55:21 -0500 Subject: Cypherpunks Rating System In-Reply-To: <20011114144042.A14156@localhost>; from mischief@lanesbry.com on Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 02:40:42PM +1100 References: <908829314e42266afb7f48d6007b0b6c@dizum.com> <20011113105908.A18170@cluebot.com> <20011114144042.A14156@localhost> Message-ID: <20011113235521.C1741@cluebot.com> Right. It's not something that I'm going to contribute to -- I don't have time to go through my posts over a six-or-whatever-year period. But if wossname wants to do something mildly useful, that would be somewhat more sane than PICSifying every post. -Declan On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 02:40:42PM +1100, Ralph Wallis wrote: > On Tuesday, 13 Nov 2001 at 10:59, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > (If you really wanted to do something that might be useful, you'd > > pick the more interesting threads from the dawn of the list, insert > > them into a good search utility, and make that available for searching > > and .tar.gz downloading.') > > the cypherpunks.venona.com archive started doing this some time ago. > Ryan asked for suggestions on which threads to highlight. There was > a lack of enthusiastic participants. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 14 00:12:12 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:12:12 -0800 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" In-Reply-To: <20011114020031.A16688@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4E98C041-D8D7-11D5-BCE8-0050E439C473@got.net> On Tuesday, November 13, 2001, at 11:00 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > Faustine says: >> There's no reason you can't keep your hardcore beliefs to yourself >> while >> doing the most rigorous and objective analysis you can. > > This is an attractive, but, alas, naive plan. > > So your closeted-libertarian-analyst presents a "rigorous and objective > analysis" saying raising the minimum wage will put people out of work? > Your opponents will present someone who argues otherwise. Your analyst > says that gun control saves lives? Opponents will ring up Handgun > Control. > Your analyst says that his interpretation of the Commerce Clause > is the correct one? Someone else will cite chapter and verse otherwise. Besides the above points, a "rigorous and objective analysis" is work for bean counters...and is only interesting to other bean counters. What got the Cypherpunks rolling was not "rigorous and objective analysis." Faustine has gradstudentitus. She or he will likely get his or her Masters or maybe even Ph.D. and will then vanish into the bowels of the Office of Implementational Policy Assessment, commuting to work each morning on the Metro, hoping to advance to GS-13 level before age 40, and generally living a life of quiet desperation. But her or his analysis papers will be suitably dry and rigorous...and ignorable. > >> Sadly enough, you're probably right. >> But isn't it about time somebody started trying? I think so. > > Again, you're naive. Cato, CEI, IHS, IJ, have tried. Victory is > not exactly expected anytime soon. > > Might as well write code, as someone once said. Two of our sessions at that Sierra retreat were vastly more useful than 99% of the CATO and related "dry and rigorous" b.s. papers. One was a session on mapping the security holes in Bay Area government installations...most gubment sites are trivially accessible from wireless connections: sit in the parking lot a few buildings away and take down the Evil Empire! Another interesting late night session was on ways to knock down airliners. The obvious approaches, but also a bunch of creative new ideas. Not for the faint of heart, of course, as a few pounds of Semtex up the butt is not exactly pleasant...but it's damned near undetectable by even their multimillion dollar scanners. The thermite attack on bridge suspension cables also got discussed. Sarin, ricin, and India-1967 were covered in another session. Meanwhile, grey burrowcrats are burrowing into their burrows in D.C., busily writing "rigorous and objective" reports on the benefits of welfare and why gun control is cost-effective. Feh. I hope to see the day when millions of them are gassed. --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787 From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 14 00:52:41 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:52:41 -0800 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" In-Reply-To: <4E98C041-D8D7-11D5-BCE8-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Wednesday, November 14, 2001, at 12:12 AM, Tim May wrote: > Meanwhile, grey burrowcrats are burrowing into their burrows in D.C., > busily writing "rigorous and objective" reports on the benefits of > welfare and why gun control is cost-effective. Feh. I hope to see the > day when millions of them are gassed. So did you discuss what was going to be done *after* the current government is destroyed? What sort of government will follow? Or was this just an exercise in later day bakuninism? I'm not (just) being a smart ass. If the necessary stuff was in place (fully anonymous digital currencies, blacknets, Bell's AP system etc.) the state would be gradually rendered ineffective, then die on the vine over a great enough time that people could adapt, institutions and attitudes could adjust. You can't just strike off a slaves chains and say "You're Free", that slave has to understand how to deal with freedom, he has to have the skills and thought processes to live without his "master" taking care of him. The vast majority of the people in this country lack one or more of skills and thought processes to live w/out an effective government. What are you going to do about that? Or is your purpose, like those Russian Nihilists, just to smash the state? -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From jallen at totalserve.co.uk Wed Nov 14 01:20:09 2001 From: jallen at totalserve.co.uk (John Allen) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 01:20:09 Subject: Your computer is a cash machine!! Message-ID: <200111140120.TAA13945@einstein.ssz.com> Hi, When I received this letter the first time. I deleted it. This time I'm using it - and joining all the others who have made half a million dollars in 5 months. All you pay is $25 U.S. Dollars. AND IT WORKS! IT REALLY DOES! THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! ================================================= BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are absolutely NO laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO DELETED IT THE FIRST TIME THEY RECEIVED IT ARE NOW GRABBING IT WITH BOTH HANDS. This is what Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. had to say: "I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. ------------------------------------------------------------ Here is another testimonial: ''This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and voila' - 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything'' More testimonials later but first, ****PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE**** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ****Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. ****For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. ****When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. ****Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. ****IMPORTANT: DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, the program will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1..After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2..Move the name & address in REPORT #4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3..Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4..Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5..Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2 6..Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ================================================= ****Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. ****To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ================================================= Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e- mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e- mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1.Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e- mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report #5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! ------------------------------------------------------------ REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD #2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ================================================= Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with method #1 and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. _________________AVAILABLE REPORTS__________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ================================================= Report #1 ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net'' Order Report # 1 from: AAB Marketing, PO Box No. 172 Woodbridge, Suffolk, IP12 4WD United Kingdom _____________________________________________________ REPORT #2 ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' Order Report #2 from: V. Shah P.O. Box 2546 Laguna Hills, CA 92654 ___________________________________________________ Report #3 ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the Net'' Order Report #3 from: M. Krause Kasseler Str. 44 D-34253 Lohfelden Germany _______________________________________________ REPORT #4 ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order Report #4 from Online Marketers PO Box 1044, Vernon, NY 13476-1044 ___________________________________________________ REPORT #5 ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order Report #5 from: M.Ram P.O. Box 2496 Wolverhampton WV3 OGD United Kingdom ____________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: ***If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. ***After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. ***Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ______________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: "You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ..........#5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ****************MORE TESTIMONIALS***************** "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf, M.D., Chicago, Illinois ------------------------------------------------------------ ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. ''I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ------------------------------------------------------------ ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else......... 11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan DeSuza, New York, N.Y. ------------------------------------------------------------ ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ------------------------------------------------------------ ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ================================================== If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301. per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. From declan at well.com Tue Nov 13 23:00:31 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 02:00:31 -0500 Subject: resend, lne problems Message-ID: <20011114020031.A16688@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Mail Delivery System ----- From portomega at usa.com Wed Nov 14 02:13:58 2001 From: portomega at usa.com (Port Omega) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 02:13:58 -0800 Subject: Finally, a FREE Virtual Office for Direct Sales marketers! Message-ID: <200111141014.CAA28687@toad.com> We value our Associates at Port Omega. 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Experience the benefits of the Port Omega advantage today by taking a FREE tour of all it has to offer the savvy multi-level marketer: http://www.PortOmega.com/joinus.asp?cp=3 Port Omega is proud to be an American company! You have received this message because you have subscribed to one or more "opt-in" email lists. If you wish to be removed from this list, please respond to rempo at toast.com. From cetyl-myristoleate at activexamerica.com Wed Nov 14 03:09:52 2001 From: cetyl-myristoleate at activexamerica.com (cetyl-myristoleate at activexamerica.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 3:09:52 PM -0000 Subject: Cetyl-Myristoleate & Arthritis Partnership Message-ID: <200111142011.OAA19210@oasis.siteprotect.com> Please direct to owner of http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1997/11/msg01955.html I have visited your website, http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1997/11/msg01955.html, and see that you have information on Cetyl-Myristoleate. Just so you know, I found you in the top listings of AltaVista. My name is Ryan Allis and I am the Vice President of Marketing for Activex America, Inc. Activex America, Inc. manufactures, wholesales, and retails Syn-flex and Syn-flex for your pet, a high-quality liquid Glucosamine and Chondroitin arthritis treatment that stops inflammation, ends joint pain fast, rebuilds damaged cartilage, and halts the progression of Osteoarthritis in both humans and pets without any of the side effects and dangers associated with COX-2 inhibitors, NSAIDS, and surgery. I would like to propose a partnership between your website and Activex America. Essentially, we would pay you a fee for linking to our website (on a monthly basis). I have set up a site with full information at http://www.activexamerica.com/partner/ -or- you can read on to learn more. Syn-flex is formulated with Pharmaceutical Grade Liquid Glucosamine Sulfate and HCL, Chondroitin, Boswellin, Shark Cartilage, Yucca powder, Ascorbate, Manganese, Bromelaine, Vitamins A, C, E, Omega 3 and Omega 6. In the past two years of testing, our customers have had tremendous results. It not only ends Arthritis pain fast, but goes to straight to work fighting the disease and rebuilding the damaged cartilage. We attribute this success to the very high-grade glucosamine and the unique combination of the eleven other ingredients that are present. We are confident Syn-flex is superior to any Glucosamine product on the market. We are now launching Syn-flex to the worldwide market. To spread the word, we have an affiliate program in place that pays commission to those who lead visitors to our site. Because of the fact you already have visitors going to your site to learn about treating their arthritis, I wanted to extend to you the ability to become an affiliate partner and have us pay you for linking to us. We will pay you for either promoting Syn-flex through your site or simply recommending our information on Arthritis. While we have a considerable distribution network, our main retail outlet is our website. On the site, Syn-flex is sold for $29.95 and honestly, it is selling so fast we are currently manufacturing 10,000 bottles per week. Even if you sell your own product on your site, Syn-flex could be the perfect "backend" or complimentary product that guarantees steady, additional cash flow for you. You just lead visitors to our site through banners, text links, newsletter articles, signature files etc. and we pay you. You make the money when the visitor from your site purchases Syn-flex or Syn-flex for your pets (1:33 visitor/sale conversion). Our advanced affiliate software keeps track of all commissions you are due. Even if a customer does not buy for another week, month, or year you still receive credit for each and every purchase online, by phone, by fax, or by mail. We pay you $6.00 for each bottle purchased. Important: Since Syn-flex is purchased monthly you receive recurring payments every month (not just once) from each customer (9 out of 10 of our customers who buy once, buy again and again). By only sending us three or four visitors a day by the end of a year, on average, we will be sending you a $252 check each month. Send us 20 visitors per day and after one year we'll, on average, send you a check for $1400 each month (which continues to grow). It takes three minutes to sign up and five to place a link on your site. Once this is done you do not have to do another thing and on the first of each month we will mail you a check (of course you could do a little promoting like writing a recommendation or an article in a newsletter if you really want sales to skyrocket). All the tracking is done by our software. Once a partner, you can check to see how you are doing any time you like by visiting our special Affiliate Resource Center. There you just enter your username and password and you'll be given instant access to your personal sales and visitor statistics. You'll know exactly how many people have visited our web site from yours and you'll see an up to the minute record of your sales. I don't want to take up your time by explaining all of the details in a really long email. You can check out all the details at http://www.activexamerica.com/partner/ -or- you can sign up right away at http://www.activexamerica.com/partner/signup.html These web pages will explain everything. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. This is a perfect opportunity for your company and ours to increase profits with very little work. I look forward to hearing from you. And if you still have any questions after you have visited the website explaining everything, please feel free to email me or call me directly at (941) 778-2155. All the Best, Ryan Allis VP Marketing Activex America, Inc. http://www.activexamerica.com partner at activexamerica.com (941) 778-2155 P.S: We also have a great wholesale program. Syn-flex is a very profitable additional to any product line. Email us at resell at activexamerica.com for details. P.P.S. Just take five minutes to sign up and put a link on your site and if at the end of one month you aren't happy with the amount on your check just take the link down. There is really nothing to lose. From Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com Wed Nov 14 01:48:40 2001 From: Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com (Nurse-zine_admin at allnurses.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 03:48:40 -0600 Subject: You've Been Removed! Message-ID: <200111140948.DAA20570@server1.allnurses.com> This message is to confirm the removal of your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com from the Nurse-zine mailing list. We're sorry to see you go! If you feel you have received this notice in error, please visit the Nurse-zine Subscribe Me mailing list at our website: http://allnurses.com to add yourself automatically, or click on the link below to automatically re-subscribe yourself: http://www.allnurses.com/subpro/subscribe.pl?add=1&list=5&email=cypherpunks at toad.com Thank you, Nurse-zine From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 14 04:41:43 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 06:41:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: [consim-l] Navajo Code Talkers (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:11:42 -0500 From: Allan Rothberg To: Consim -L Subject: [consim-l] Navajo Code Talkers All, I tripped over this URL in today's local paper. It is a dictionary of the code: www.history.navy.mil/afqs/fa61-2.htm Allan From frissell at panix.com Wed Nov 14 03:45:09 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 06:45:09 -0500 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <20011113171332.A28341@cluebot.com> References: <200111131920.OAA25756@mail.lokmail.net> <200111131920.OAA25756@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011114064307.033eddd0@frissell@brillig.panix.com> At 05:13 PM 11/13/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 02:20:28PM -0500, Faustine wrote: > > It sure is. That's why I think (and have always openly said, here and > > everywhere) we need more pro-freedom policy analysts in Washington. > >Of course, if you're a hardcore libertarian ("abolish all >unconstitutional federal agencies, and that's most of 'em! let's >revert back to the firearms laws we had 150 years ago!"), then you >don't get listened to. > >Having more "pro freedom policy analysts" in Washington won't >accomplish much until other things change too. > >-Declan Anyway, don't we have dozens (hundreds?) of pro-freedom policy analysts in DC. Between CATO and all the rest. Haven't the commies been complaining about our massive numbers "funded by the corporations". DCF From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 14 04:52:05 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 06:52:05 -0600 Subject: The Register - Do-it-yourself Internet anonymity Message-ID: <3BF268F5.62DDAA16@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/22831.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mkrickert at earthlink.net Wed Nov 14 07:40:04 2001 From: mkrickert at earthlink.net (Mark) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:40:04 -0800 Subject: 12 Steps To Hacking Into A Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c16d22$a3b94bf0$0300a8c0@lightlanesoftware.com> I'm an ex-captain of a football team and I used to beat me and all of me too when I was drunk. Here are 12 ways to a life full of happiness, joy and freedom. Tell your boyfriend to pick on something his own size, like his penis or brain because I think he is running on only one headlamp. Some are sicker than others. 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs. Tell him that he has a drinking problem, stop seeing him immediately and advise him to GET TO AN A MEETING! Sincerely, "Official Cyperpunks Dear Abbey Contributor" -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM] On Behalf Of Bobby Bob Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:54 AM To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: I'm a nineteen year old female who would like to hack into my ex-boyfriends computer. He's captain of the football team and he use to beat me and all the kids in the Audio/Visual club at school when he was drunk. Could you please tell me how to hack into a computer. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 14 06:23:59 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:23:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Bobby Bob wrote: > I'm a nineteen year old female who would like to hack into my ex-boyfriends > computer. He's captain of the football team and he use to beat me and all > the kids in the Audio/Visual club at school when he was drunk. Could you > please tell me how to hack into a computer. I have always found the Firefighters Axe works really well. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Nov 14 08:59:00 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:59:00 -0800 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" In-Reply-To: References: <4E98C041-D8D7-11D5-BCE8-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BF23254.32578.25CD00@localhost> -- On 14 Nov 2001, at 0:52, Petro wrote: > So did you discuss what was going to be done *after* the > current government is destroyed? What sort of government > will follow? Preferably none whatsoever. > Or was this just an exercise in later day > bakuninism? Bakunin was a moderate, who sometimes advocated a conventional socialist government, though he changed his mind when he started to imagine a socialist government run by Marx or his fellow Marxists. > You can't just strike off a slaves chains and say "You're > Free", that slave has to understand how to deal with > freedom, he has to have the skills and thought processes to > live without his "master" taking care of him. The vast > majority of the people in this country lack one or more of > skills and thought processes to live w/out an effective > government. When the slaves were freed in the civil war, their death rate went up to extremely high levels, and the death rate among their descendants still has not fallen to normal levels. Despite that we did not see any of them call for a return to the old system. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 9kwrQutH0kRTaB8Rj+zkWHeDBKQktQ2gA4Xj21kl 4evNogxciSix8raejhW3yU6SKuHfoLpiySVDX9sdc From declan at well.com Wed Nov 14 06:28:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:28:50 -0500 Subject: Sedition In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011114064307.033eddd0@frissell@brillig.panix. com>; from frissell@panix.com on Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:45:09AM -0500 References: <200111131920.OAA25756@mail.lokmail.net> <200111131920.OAA25756@mail.lokmail.net> <20011113171332.A28341@cluebot.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011114064307.033eddd0@frissell@brillig.panix.com> Message-ID: <20011114092850.A5710@cluebot.com> Yep, hundreds. Cato has a staff of about 100 alone. IHS/Mercatus probably close to the same. CEI and IJ are smaller. But DC is a big town, and a few hundred people (many of whom are support staff and not "analysts") are vastly outnumbered by the bureaucratelia. -Declan On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:45:09AM -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote: > At 05:13 PM 11/13/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 02:20:28PM -0500, Faustine wrote: > > > It sure is. That's why I think (and have always openly said, here and > > > everywhere) we need more pro-freedom policy analysts in Washington. > > > >Of course, if you're a hardcore libertarian ("abolish all > >unconstitutional federal agencies, and that's most of 'em! let's > >revert back to the firearms laws we had 150 years ago!"), then you > >don't get listened to. > > > >Having more "pro freedom policy analysts" in Washington won't > >accomplish much until other things change too. > > > >-Declan > > Anyway, don't we have dozens (hundreds?) of pro-freedom policy analysts in > DC. Between CATO and all the rest. Haven't the commies been complaining > about our massive numbers "funded by the corporations". > > DCF From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Wed Nov 14 10:09:27 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:09:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Recognized Name in Data Security Message-ID: <200111141809.fAEI9Ro19146@artifact.psychedelic.net> Here's an exerpt from a little story in Wired News this morning about secure data centers. I don't know about you, but having my data guarded by "Osama Arafat" would make me feel all safe, warm, and cozy. http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,48104,00.html ... Q9, a data center in Toronto, uses both proximity cards and fingerprint scanners to access the computer room, which is entered through a bullet-proof revolving door that allows only one person through at a time. "The whole idea is that someone can't force another person to let them in," said Q9 CEO Osama Arafat. "It's just part of the due diligence that people demand." ... -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From gr at eclipsed.net Wed Nov 14 07:17:21 2001 From: gr at eclipsed.net (gabriel rosenkoetter) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:17:21 -0500 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: ; from ilovegeeks4eva@hotmail.com on Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:53:37PM +0000 References: Message-ID: <20011114101721.C18952@eclipsed.net> On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:53:37PM +0000, Bobby Bob wrote: > I'm a nineteen year old female who would like to hack into my ex-boyfriends > computer. He's captain of the football team and he use to beat me and all > the kids in the Audio/Visual club at school when he was drunk. Could you > please tell me how to hack into a computer. Fire axes work well. -- ~ g r @ eclipsed.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 237 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn Wed Nov 14 10:28:23 2001 From: Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn (Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:28:23 Subject: 40 Million Emails, Bulk Hosting, Bulk Mailing & Much More.. Message-ID: <200111260107.TAA13266@einstein.ssz.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 14 10:39:38 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:39:38 -0800 Subject: The killing of Bill Cooper and Liquid Metal Embrittlement Message-ID: Some of us were talking at our camp in the Sierras last weekend about the efforts to silence William Cooper, culminating in his death in a shootout with LEOs dressed as street punks. One of Bill's early interests, after his retirement from the armed services, was in how "Liquid Metal Embrittlement" (LME) compounds had been developed to weaken aircraft structures as a means of sabotage. LME works by weakening aluminum, notably, along grain lines. An LME solution smeared along wing or panel sections could cause catastrophic failure during high stress flight phases, e.g., takeoffs and, to a lesser extent, landings. We ran a few scenarios about how easy it would be bring down an airliner, further spreading fear. So what happened on Monday morning? From the reports I'm reading, it looks like the tail section broke off shortly after takeoff, during relatively high-g banking manouvers. CNN is saying this is an "unprecedented" failure mechanism for the A300. Bill Cooper may well have been terminated with extreme prejudice, as the saying goes, because he was getting too close to the truth about the NWO and ZOG using such US-developed sabotage weapons to further the expansion of the terror state. The U.S. has pressured the major U.S. news outlets not to show Bin Laden's tapes...now we are hearing from _transcripts_ that Bin Laden has "come close" to taking credit for 911...but it would help to actually _see_ the tapes. Ah, but that would not be consistent with the New World Order approach to justice: * strong arm the press into not showing video tapes, except of the NWO side * suspend habeus corpus, hold 1000 detainees indefinitely (9 weeks and counting...) -- secret trials, secret evidence, secret witnesses...so much for the open courts, confrontation of witnesses, jury of peers, due process -- bugging of attorney-client communications (would not surprise me that other secret orders require attorneys to implicate their clients, even with manufactured evidence) -- ZOG lovers like Dershowitz are calling for torturing suspects until they confess (One of our fun ideas in the Sierras was that someone should kidnap Dershowitz, torture him for 5 days, release the tape of his various "confessions," and then dump his body in front of the Supreme Court.) Fuck America. Fuck it dead. --Tim May "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet From businessesforsalenewsletter at yahoo.com Wed Nov 14 09:37:49 2001 From: businessesforsalenewsletter at yahoo.com (businessesforsalenewsletter at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:37:49 -0600 Subject: your businesses for sale newsletter Message-ID: <1005737870@LAB-TOWERS-13.uwec.edu> Hi, Ever wonder where people buy and sell businesses? Right here, sign up to receive the #1 subscribed businesses for sale newsletter (just simply reply to this email) included in the newsletter: *** This Nation wide newsletter includes local businesses and national businesses for sale, fully developed websites (listed on yahoo), franchises, business opportunities, startups, and many more types of businesses that are available for sale. *** Also included will be free tips on: selling your own business, starting your own business, promotting/advertising your own business,and different types of business opportunities as well as other sources (magazines/newsletters/newspapers/websites) you can look at to buy or sell a business. just reply to this email if you would like to subscribe, (you can unsubscribe any time) Sincereley, Businesses For Sale Newsletter Remember, You have signed up to receive Home business information (YOU ARE RECEIVING THIS EMAIL BECAUSE you have signed up to receive business oriented material. IF you no longer wish to subscribe or if you received this e-mail by mistake YOU may simply reply (with: UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line.) From julian at blueprint3.com Wed Nov 14 04:36:00 2001 From: julian at blueprint3.com (Julian Morrison) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:36:00 +0000 Subject: Public Servants Going After "Constitutional Terrorists"? Message-ID: <3BF26530.69524F8A@blueprint3.com> http://www.keepandbeararms.com/angel/articles/consterrorist.htm From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com Wed Nov 14 05:03:26 2001 From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:03:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ignore Message-ID: <85df2f62799929c6cebbcb3baffe26eb@remailer.havenco.com> alpha From ilovegeeks4eva at hotmail.com Wed Nov 14 05:53:37 2001 From: ilovegeeks4eva at hotmail.com (Bobby Bob) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:53:37 +0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: I'm a nineteen year old female who would like to hack into my ex-boyfriends computer. He's captain of the football team and he use to beat me and all the kids in the Audio/Visual club at school when he was drunk. Could you please tell me how to hack into a computer. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From themovie at bloodycrisis.com Wed Nov 14 14:11:57 2001 From: themovie at bloodycrisis.com (themovie at bloodycrisis.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 01 14:11:57 Eastern Standard Time Subject: Bloody Crisis - The Movie Message-ID: <200111141911.LAA15802@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 459 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blancw at cnw.com Wed Nov 14 14:27:05 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:27:05 -0800 Subject: The killing of Bill Cooper and Liquid Metal Embrittlement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Said Tim May: :-- ZOG lovers like Dershowitz are calling for torturing suspects until :they confess : :(One of our fun ideas in the Sierras was that someone should kidnap :Dershowitz, torture him for 5 days, release the tape of his various :"confessions," and then dump his body in front of the Supreme Court.) : :Fuck America. Fuck it dead. ---------------------------- Yikes. If only you were fundamentalist, the package would be complete and ready to go. Between all the criminals vs crime-stoppers in the world, not to mention all the acronyms used to identify them, I'm getting confused as to who is what and who to run from. Jamesd, can you straighten this out? .. Blanc From mischief at lanesbry.com Tue Nov 13 19:40:42 2001 From: mischief at lanesbry.com (Ralph Wallis) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:40:42 +1100 Subject: Cypherpunks Rating System In-Reply-To: <20011113105908.A18170@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 10:59:08AM -0500 References: <908829314e42266afb7f48d6007b0b6c@dizum.com> <20011113105908.A18170@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20011114144042.A14156@localhost> On Tuesday, 13 Nov 2001 at 10:59, Declan McCullagh wrote: > (If you really wanted to do something that might be useful, you'd > pick the more interesting threads from the dawn of the list, insert > them into a good search utility, and make that available for searching > and .tar.gz downloading.') the cypherpunks.venona.com archive started doing this some time ago. Ryan asked for suggestions on which threads to highlight. There was a lack of enthusiastic participants. From mriddle at monarch.papillion.ne.us Wed Nov 14 13:37:33 2001 From: mriddle at monarch.papillion.ne.us (Mike Riddle) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:37:33 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: >President Bush has quietly signed an executive order allowing civilians to >be tried by military tribunals. This may be outrageous. > >I say "may be" because the degree to which we should be outraged depends on >the details of this not-yet-released executive order. Does the executive >order apply only to non-U.S. citizens, as some news reports say? Perhaps it >applies only abroad, to Al Qaeda saboteurs trying to blow up U.S. military >bases? Does it apply solely to illegal immigrants? If it applies to people >living in or visiting the U.S. legally, what happened to our Sixth >Amendment right "to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury?" Look up APPLICATION OF YAMASHITA, 327 U.S. 1 (1946), http://laws.findlaw.com/us/327/1.html ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:44:43 -0500 From: Mordechai Ovits To: coderpunks at toad.com Subject: secure editors? On http://www.vim.org/answ.html it mentions some "secure editors" made available by "Freedman, Sharp & Associates." The link is dead, and I can't seem to find FSA anywhere. Anyone have an archive of it? Otherwise, does anyone know of a secure non-escapable editor? Mordy -- Mordy Ovits Bad Password: Network Security nds09813-050 Bloomberg L.P. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 14 15:02:51 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:02:51 -0600 Subject: Senseboard Technologies AB (Coool!!!) Message-ID: <3BF2F81B.65374539@ssz.com> http://www.senseboard.com/products.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 14 15:12:36 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:12:36 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | (Mostly) Confirmed: New Mersenne Prime Found Message-ID: <3BF2FA64.642A3570@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/science/01/11/14/1849203.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 14 15:16:02 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:16:02 -0600 Subject: kuro5hin.org || U.S. House Votes on Bills They Don't Read Message-ID: <3BF2FB32.EFDC4BEF@ssz.com> http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/11/14/0327/2510 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 14 15:18:02 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:18:02 -0600 Subject: kuro5hin.org || Military Trials for Terrorists Message-ID: <3BF2FBAA.94B94EED@ssz.com> http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/11/14/83952/307 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 14 15:21:09 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:21:09 -0600 Subject: kuro5hin.org || Time for representative international government Message-ID: <3BF2FC65.1CC737D@ssz.com> http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/11/11/212728/29 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ericm at lne.com Wed Nov 14 17:43:58 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:43:58 -0800 Subject: The killing of Bill Cooper and Liquid Metal Embrittlement In-Reply-To: ; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:49:34PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011114174358.A21903@slack.lne.com> On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:49:34PM -0800, John Young wrote: > How would the LME work on the interior structure of the plane? > The skin has little structural strength but does streamline the On modern cars and aircraft the skin is a structural part. There was a post WWII DeHaviland (the Comet I beleive) that kept coming apart in the air... some of the windows had too-sharp corners that concentrated stress from pressurization and caused cracks in the skin, eventually resulting in sudden failure. Once aluminum gets a crack it goes pretty fast. OTOH, LME requires the metals to be liquid or close to it. Even tin has a melting point around 500 degrees F, and it's a pretty low melting point metal. Engine mounting parts might get that hot, but not the exterior surface. There's probably other methods of causing quick corrosion of failure besides LME... what I googled about it makes me not worry about it as something sprayed on the exterior of aircraft to cause sabotage. Eric From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 14 17:49:34 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:49:34 -0800 Subject: The killing of Bill Cooper and Liquid Metal Embrittlement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How would the LME work on the interior structure of the plane? The skin has little structural strength but does streamline the structure and I suppose if it was weakened to peel away, turbulence could shear structural bolts or welds. The tail section of 587 appeared to be cleanly detached from the fuselage and not obviously torn. Vibration of the tail could have loosened or fractured bolts or welds sufficiently to break away under the forces of take-off and/or turbulence from the preceding 747. Still, if the tail was subject to vibration that would have made its attachments a likely assembly to check frequently. Several recent FAA airworthiness directives for the A300 listed problems needing attention but nothing on the tail assembly. Which doesn't mean squat necessarily, since expected accidents usually don't happen. However, because tails seldom come loose, I understand, if an attacker wanted to do the unexpected on a part little suspected of failure, the tail connection would be a good target. One pilot was quoted as saying no better failure could have been arranged to assure disaster. That is, loss of tail is not in featured the emergency recovery manual -- at least in civilian aircraft. I believe loss of tail is included in military emergency planning due to their being good vertical targets for missiles, shells and shrapnel. Some military tails are oversized for the plane to survive loss of a good portion of the tail (although not likely for entire tail loss except for two-tailed craft). From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Wed Nov 14 18:36:02 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 18:36:02 PST Subject: FREE "Get Osama" Stress Reliever! 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Copyright © 2001 GamblingSurf.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?hurricaneltd:10 * Enter your email address (CYPHERPUNKS at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "hurricaneltd:10". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address CYPHERPUNKS at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: CYPHERPUNKS at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:152.uia.4b2p -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11955 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 2001timing at eurosport.com Wed Nov 14 19:45:11 2001 From: 2001timing at eurosport.com (2001timing at eurosport.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 19:45:11 Subject: you must see this! Message-ID: <200111150145.TAA20057@einstein.ssz.com> In todays market success requires a different approach. I'm not a gambler or a risk taker, I lost a lot of money in the market and I'm so happy that I didn't let this opportunity pass me by. You already own a computer and have an internet connection. While you are online you may as well make some money right? This program really works, and while it takes some persistence anyone can do this! You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details; is there a catch; NO, there is no catch, just send your emails and be on your way to financial freedom. AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV : ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! =============================================== Before you say ''Bull'' , please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below , to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. One day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $768,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything . But like most of the people I was also a little skeptical and little worried about the legal aspect of it. So I checked it out with the U.S. Postal Service (1-800- 725 2161 = 24 hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed Legal ! I am now loving it !" Richard Templeton, Dallas, Texas. ---------------------------------------------------------------- More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ******* $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $100,000 every 4 to 5 months legally, easily and comfortably, please read the following...then READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN and follow the simple instructions ! DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED ! The sooner you do it, the faster you start making money !!! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. **** IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY ! ========================================================= **** Take this entire letter ( with the modified list of names) and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. **** To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================ let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. (there are over 170 million people on the internet worldwide and about 30,000 more new customers signs up everyday). THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500+ 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET =================================================== Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ___________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS ___________________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in atleast 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ============================================== REPORT # 1 : "HOW TO MAKE$250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" Order Report # 1 from: DataTech Industries 59 Corliss Crescent Winnipeg, MB, Canada R2C 4S6 __________________________________________________ REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' Order Report # 2 from : JF ENTERPRISES 356 Arthur Street Suite 2 E Freeport Harbor, NY 11520-5636 __________________________________________________ REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' Order Report # 3 from: Wesco Information & Distribution 1017 Ash Ave Cottage Grove, Oregon 97424 U.S.A. __________________________________________________ REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order Report # 4 from: P.S. MUSIC ENT. 34 MORGAN ST. NEW ROCHELLE, NY 10805-1225 U.S.A. ___________________________________________________ REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order Report # 5 from: Maria Z. BENITO'S 24 DIVISION ST. NEW ROCHELLE, NY 10801 U.S.A. ___________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your sucess: *** If you do not receive atleast 15 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. Your target should be to receive atleast 20 orders for Report # 1 within 2 - 3 weeks of your mailing to be on the safe side. Because some people will do nothing after they sent you $5 for Report # 1 due to lack of enthusiasm or lack of desire to become a millionaire by end of 2000. We suggest you continue sending e-mails until you have attained the basic goal. *** After you have received 15 - 20 orders for Report # 1, then 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive atleast 100 orders or more for Report # 2. If you did not, continue sending mails until you do. *** Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ______________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: "" You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money ion the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ************** MORE TESTIMONIALS **************** '' My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it would'nt work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D. , Chicago, Illinois ------------------------------------------------------------ '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to atleast get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ----------------------------------------------------------- '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ---------------------------------------------------- ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301. per Section 301, Pragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply with the word Remove in the subject line. This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washigton, State of California, State of Conneticut, State of Delaware, or the Country of Australia. Screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be considered SPAM as long as we include a valid return address and the way to be removed. E N D ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If this message has reached you in error and you wish to be removed from our mailing list please reply to: mailto:fr72 at excite.ca?Subject=Remove Please note that a automated computer receives the "remove" requests and processes the requests. Slander and profanity in your removes will not be read by humans...only by a computer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From whatsnew at launch-media.net Wed Nov 14 20:50:44 2001 From: whatsnew at launch-media.net (Launch) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 20:50:44 PST Subject: Big news for LAUNCH members only Message-ID: <200111150450.UAA21804@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3769 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 14 12:10:31 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:10:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: Monkeywrenching Message-ID: <30a1f8dfc7d8c993eade73113496c425@dizum.com> Tim May writes: > Several of us were in the Sierras this past weekend for a training > session on weapons use, explosives, terrorism measures, and methods for > monkeywrenching the U.S. government so as to paralyze its police state > moves. First, this is probably not true. Tim May often uses hyperbole, exaggeration and satire to make his points. There may or may not have been a gathering but it is unlikely to have been for the purpose of learning how to be a terrorist. Second, training in such matters would be useless and counterproductive. There is no point in patriotic Americans learning to use weapons and explosives for the purpose of terrorism. Any attempt to use such tools would injure or kill people and lead to an even greater loss of our remaining civil libertires. It would weaken the position of those who are fighting to preserve our rights, bring more military occupation of American cities, and produce more government surveillance. Third, "monkeywrenching" may actually be a positive strategy, if employed intelligently. The idea would be to make the government occupation more expensive and difficult, and to promote public distrust and resentment of the government's efforts to expand its control. It is however important that the provocation doesn't go too far and trigger a public relations backlash. Small steps must be taken at this point while people still overwhelmingly support government actions. Of course subtlety is not exactly a Tim May trademark. (At least, not the bloodthirsty blowhard of today. Where is the man who came up with the idea of Big Brother Inside stickers?). Let us hope that cooler heads are involved in the planning of any such effort. An earlier version of this message was sent but has not yet appeared. Here are some additional thoughts. A good example of monkeywrenching can be found at the article posted earlier, http://www.keepandbeararms.com/angel/articles/consterrorist.htm. This shows an apparently legitimate flyer from the "Phoenix FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force" telling people whom they should watch out for. It includes people who "make numerous references to the US constitution", people who are "'defenders' of the US constitution against federal government and the UN", people who attempt to "police the police" and so on. These will already raise red flags even among mainstream Americans. How easy it would be to make an altered version of this flyer which shades just a bit more into questionable territory. People who object to surveillance by the government; people who oppose stationing soldiers in public places; people who refuse to pledge allegiance to the flag; people who won't show their identity papers on request; there are all kinds of dangerous individuals out there. The slope is slippery, and it would be easy to slide just a little ways farther down. Printing copies of such a flyer and leaving them in public places would be a good way to get people thinking about how much they are giving up. It might even be possible to get a know-nothing police officer to join in the distribution, someone whose authoritarian political perspective will make him blind to the satire. From mean-green at hushmail.com Wed Nov 14 21:17:03 2001 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:17:03 -0800 Subject: Red Herring: Terrorism and the challenge to globalization. Message-ID: <200111150517.fAF5H3s64871@mailserver1.hushmail.com> [Another glimmer of hope as even some of the mainstream business press is venturing beyond simple patriotic flag waving. Posted in its entirety as its not online.] Terrorism and the challenge to globalization. BY PETER SCHWARTZ THE CATASTROPHIC, evil attacks on the United States are the result of deep grievances held by violent factions of radical Islamic movements. But within hours of the World Trade Center's collapse, many voices that have been raised in opposition to globalization were arguing that the attacks were the result of the American drive for global political and economic hegemony. Is there really a connection here? The question is not whether there is some grand conspiracy. Rather, the question is whether the events of September ii are part of the same story as the challenge to globalization. If so, what does it portend? There are several good arguments that the answer is yes, there is a bigger story that ties together fanatic Islamists and World Trade Organization protesters. Both are challenging American power, and both are opposed to American global dominance of culture, economics, and politics. But there are different interpretations of the opposition to globalization. The globalization debate is really about the power of global corporations, argues Paul Hawken, cofounder of gardening retailer Smith & Hawken, and an active participant in Seattle's anti﷓WTO demonstrations. In his forthcoming book, Uprising, he suggests that a loose network of worldwide organizations is attempting to limit global entities' power to dominate, exploit, and sometimes corrupt societies. These network groups are not opposed to trade, private enterprise, or modernization; they just want these pursuits on terms that recognize certain values. They are repelled by violence. Still, they believe global companies hurt, more than help, people, and that poverty and corporate tyranny fertilize the soil from which fanaticism grows. Kevin Kelly, the former executive editor of Wired magazine and the author of Out of Control: The New Biology of A4acleines,Social Systems and the Economic World (Perseus, i995),suggests that radical Islam could come to play a role similar to that of Communism. The Communist movement around the world served to organize opposition to Western capitalism and give hope to the oppressed, however misplaced. Today in the Islamic world, America is seen as the source of poverty and powerlessness, while radical Islam is seen as the strongest opponent of American power, and the source of an alternative vision of better life. For American citizens, the violent extreme of radical Islam has become, like Communism before it, the nightmare that organizes our darkest fears. The United States calls itself the land of freedom and democracy, but, argues Benjamin Barber, author of Jihad vs. McWorld: How Globalism and Tribalism are Reshaping the World (Ballantine Books, t996), it supports an often oppressive and undemocratic international order. Institutions like the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and the WTO all function behind closed doors, where the United States and its brethren control the world economy. America has opposed efforts to increase transparency of the system and broaden participation in it. The U.S. government has opposed several new treaties covering issues like global climate change, war crimes, and even biological weapons. Many who challenge American power see the country as reserving democracy and freedom for itself. If these interpretations of political reality are valid, we can glimpse where the geopolitical future may be headed. If radical Islam is the new Communism, we may be in for a long and ugly war. This scenario involves a world of perpetual conflict with no winners. As atrocities on both sides feed on each other, the dividing lines become deeper and wider in an ever more﷓terrible cycle of violence. If Mr. Hawken and Mr. Barber are right, there are at least two possibilities. In the best of all possible worlds, democratic governance would begin to emerge globally. Existing institutions would become more transparent and democratic. New institutions would be created to better regulate common elements like the air and the oceans, and to establish appropriate global rules of behavior for corporations. But one has no trouble imagining another scenario, in which the United States refuses to surrender any sovereignty and acts unilaterally in its own interests. In such a rogue superpower scenario, the reception for U.S. companies around the world will become chilly indeed, as the world lines up to resist American hegemony. Sympathy for any new horrors inflicted upon the United States will be very limited, and cheers will be heard in Paris and Rome, as well as in the back streets of Gaza and Karachi. PETER ScHwaarz, chairman of the Global Business Network, is also a partner at the venture capital firm Alta Partners. Previously he headed scenario planning for Royal Dutch/Shell in London. Write to letters at redherring.com. From freematt at coil.com Wed Nov 14 18:52:51 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:52:51 -0500 Subject: Networks and Netwars: The Future of Terror, Crime, and Militancy Message-ID: News from RAND Contact: John Warren RAND Tel: 310-393-0411, ext. 6293 Fax: 310-451-6996 Email: jwarren at rand.org http://www.rand.org RAND 1700 Main Street P.O. Box 2138 Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138 1200 South Hayes Street Arlington VA 22202-5050 703-413-1100 The Growing Power of Networks The tragic events of September 11th made brutally clear that the fight for the future is not between the armies of leading states, nor are its weapons those of conventional armed forces. Rather, today's combatants come from terrorist groups like Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda, or drug smuggling cartels like those ravaging Colombia and Mexico. On the positive side are non-violent, civil-society activists fighting for the environment, democracy and human rights. What all have in common is that they operate in small, dispersed units that can deploy nimbly-anywhere, anytime. They know how to penetrate and disrupt, as well as elude and evade. They all feature network forms of organization, doctrine, strategy, and technology attuned to the information age. And, from al-Qaeda to the Intifadah to the drug war, they are proving very hard to beat... Networks and Netwars: The Future of Terror, Crime, and Militancy, by John Arquilla and David F. Ronfeldt, Editors, (RAND, 2001) examines this new spectrum of conflict emerging in the wake of the information revolution. Netwar includes conflicts waged, on the one hand, by terrorists, criminals, gangs, and ethnic extremists; and by civil-society activists (such as cyber activists or WTO protestors) on the other. What distinguishes netwar is the networked organizational structure of its practitioners-with many groups actually being leaderless-and their quickness in coming together in swarming attacks. Completed shortly before terrorists attacked New York and Washington, the volume includes an Afterword analyzing the Attack on America. The events of September 11, 2001, tragically reinforced Arquilla and Ronfeldt's conclusion that in order to confront this new type of conflict, it is crucial for governments, military, and law enforcement to begin networking themselves. "Just as a half century ago, researchers at RAND sought to understand the profound changes in strategy brought about by nuclear weapons and intercontinental ballistic missiles," says Brian Michael Jenkins, one of the world's foremost experts on terrorism and crime, "Arquilla and Ronfeldt explore the strategic implications of new information technologies in the latest installment of their seminal work... Networks and Netwars obliges us to think in new ways." In Networks and Netwars, the editors and their colleagues examine the major instances of netwar that have occurred over the past several years-from Osama bin Laden's networked terrorists to the Battle of Seattle's social activists-and find, among other things, that netwars have generally been successful from the protagonists' perspective. The authors also find that, despite their diversity, all networks built for waging netwar may be analyzed in terms of a common analytic framework. There are five critical levels of theory and practice: the technological, social, narrative, organizational, and doctrinal levels. A netwar actor must get all five right to be fully effective. The most potent netwarriors will not only be highly networked and have the capacity for mounting "swarming" attacks, they will also be held together by strong social ties, have secure communications technologies, and project a common "story" about why they are together and what they need to do. Like Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaeda, these are the most serious adversaries. But even those networks that are weak on some levels may pose stiff challenges to their nation-state adversaries. With this in mind, it is necessary to go beyond simply diagnosing the nature of the networked nonstate opponent in a given conflict. "A particular challenge for the cumbersome American bureaucracy will be to encourage deep, all-channel networking among the military, law enforcement, and intelligence elements whose collaboration is crucial for achieving success," Arquilla and Ronfeldt explain in the Afterword. "U.S. agencies have been headed in this direction for years-in the areas of counter-narcotics as well as counterterrorism-but interagency rivalries and distrust have too often slowed progress." Writers who focus on the technological aspects of netwar often miss the point. As the editors point out, "At its heart, Netwar is far more about organization and doctrine than it is about technology. The outcomes of current and future netwars are bound to confirm this." Nathan Gardels, editor of New Perspectives Quarterly, and author of The Changing Global Order, says "Arquilla and Ronfeldt are a rare breed: strategic thinkers of the information age. In Networks and Netwars they grasp an emerging reality still lost on those preoccupied with the geostrategic balance of power: War in the future will be waged by leaderless networks that can come together quickly out of cyberspace to 'swarm' an opponent. Like few others, they recognize that the flipside of the celebrated global civil society born of the Internet is the 'uncivil society' of terrorists and criminals who will use the same means to spread havoc and instability." "Rushing into an increasingly complex world, we need ways to probe the road ahead, to find the quicksand and pitfalls before falling in," says David Brin, author of The Postman, Earth, and The Transparent Society: Will Technology Force Us to Choose Between Privacy and Freedom? "Arquilla and Ronfeldt have taken on this hard task, searching for technological threats to a society that has grown reliant on data-based infrastructure... In this collection of cogent articles, by experts in the field of netwar, they clarify some of the dangers that await us-and reveal possible ways to avoid them. It's obviously an important and seminal work. I especially like their analysis of the key features that enable groups to be effective in this new arena of conflict." Contents: Summary 7 The Advent of Netwar (Revisited) (John Arquilla and David Ronfeldt) 7 The Networking of Terror (Michele Zanini, Sean J.A. Edwards) 7 Transnational Criminal Networks (Phil Williams) 7 Gangs, Hooligans, and Anarchists (John P. Sullivan) 7 Networking Dissent: Cyber Activists Promote Democracy in Burma (Tiffany Danitz, Warren P. Strobel) 7 Emergence and Influence of the Zapatista Social Netwar (Ronfeldt, Arquilla) 7 Netwar in the Emerald City: WTO Protest (Paul de Armond) 7 Activism, Hacktivism, and Cyberterrorism (Dorothy E. Denning) 7 The Structure of Social Movements: Environmental Activism (Luther P. Gerlach) 7 What Next for Networks and Netwars (Ronfeldt, Arquilla) 7 Afterword (September 2001) (Arquilla, Ronfeldt) About the Editors: John Arquilla is associate professor of defense analysis at the Naval Postgraduate School and a consultant to RAND. David Ronfeldt is a senior social scientist working in the International Policy and Security Group at RAND. Their publications include In Athena's Camp: Preparing for Conflict in the Information Age (RAND, 1997), The Zapatista "Social Netwar" in Mexico (RAND, 1998), The Emergence of Noopolitik (RAND, 1999), and Swarming and the Future of Conflict (RAND, 2000). They are also co-authors of numerous titles, including Countering the New Terrorism (RAND, 1999). About the Contributors: Paul de Armond is director of the Public Good Project, a research and education network based in Washington State that studies militant movements. Tiffany Danitz is a journalist and a staff writer for stateline.org, an on-line news service that covers politics in the state legislatures. Earlier, she wrote extensively about national and international politics as a staff writer for Insight Magazine and The Washington Times. Dorothy Denning is professor of computer science at Georgetown University and author of Cryptography and Data Security and Information Warfare and Security. Sean Edwards is a doctoral fellow at the RAND Graduate School and author of Swarming on the Battlefield: Past, Present, Future. Luther Gerlach is professor emeritus of anthropology at the University of Minnesota. He is co-author of People, Power, Change: Movements of Social Transformation and has written numerous articles on social movements and environmental risks. Warren Strobel is a journalist who has worked at The Washington Times, U.S. News and World Report, and is currently with the Knight Ridder News Service. He has written widely about international affairs. John Sullivan is a sergeant with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. A specialist in terrorism, conflict disaster, urban operations, and police studies, he is editor of Transit Policing and cofounder of the Terrorism Early Warning (TEW) Group. Phil Williams is professor of international affairs at the University of Pittsburgh and director of the Ridgway Center for International and Security Studies. He is a leading authority on transnational criminal networks. Michele Zanini is a doctoral fellow at the RAND Graduate School and has written about information-age terrorism, NATO strategy in the Balkans and Mediterranean, and European defense planning. Networks and Netwars: The Future of Terror, Crime and Militancy John Arquilla and David Ronfeldt, Editors 380 pages 7 paperback 7 ISBN: 0-8330-3030-2 7 $25.00 PUBLICATION DATE: November 2001 Available at bookstores; from National Book Network (800) 462-6420; or directly from RAND. Call RAND at (310) 451-7002, or toll free (877) 584-8642 in the U.S. Website: www.rand.org. ## ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From newsletter at gamblerdepot.com Wed Nov 14 22:04:13 2001 From: newsletter at gamblerdepot.com (newsletter at gamblerdepot.com) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:04:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gambler Depot - 100% Sign Up Bonus Offer! Message-ID: <200111150604.fAF64Da67377@srv54.server4me.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8082 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 14 22:52:56 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (tcmay at got.net) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:52:56 -0800 Subject: The killing of Bill Cooper and Liquid Metal Embrittlement In-Reply-To: <20011114174358.A21903@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <66414F5A-D995-11D5-B1C8-003065CF0CC6@got.net> On Wednesday, November 14, 2001, at 05:43 PM, Eric Murray wrote: > OTOH, LME requires the metals to be liquid or close to it. Even tin > has a melting point around 500 degrees F, and it's a pretty > low melting point metal. > Engine mounting parts might get that hot, but not the exterior surface. No, liquid metal embrittlement does not require that aluminum, for example, be nearly in a liquid state. The mercury amalgam that forms can even form at cryogenic temperatures, not to mention at normal ambient temperatures. > There's probably other methods of causing quick corrosion of > failure besides LME... what I googled about it makes me not worry > about it as something sprayed on the exterior of aircraft to > cause sabotage. > Google is great, but beware of getting your basic science just from some items you find. Fontana and Greene is a good text on corrosion, and there are even some pretty good online descriptions of LME in connection with mercury on aluminum. --Tim May From declan at well.com Wed Nov 14 20:02:06 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:02:06 -0500 Subject: kuro5hin.org || U.S. House Votes on Bills They Don't Read In-Reply-To: <3BF2FB32.EFDC4BEF@ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:16:02PM -0600 References: <3BF2FB32.EFDC4BEF@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20011114230206.A21259@cluebot.com> And this is a surprise? I like the story a few years back about how a Hill staffer got a dog run installed (cost about $100,000) in the park by his Capitol Hill apartment, just because he could do it. -Declan On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:16:02PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/11/14/0327/2510 > > -- > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. > > Bumper Sticker > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jei at cc.hut.fi Wed Nov 14 13:22:34 2001 From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:22:34 +0200 (EET) Subject: FC: President Bush says military tribunals will try civilian cases Message-ID: You don't feel outraged if it applies ONLY to non-americans? How would you people feel if we took the same liberty to try and execute suspected American terrorists and hold secret tribunals for them? It is just a question of perspective - one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, like the Taleban have learned. The victor writes the history - and can re-write it again, like the Americans have proved to the Taleban. Why can't countries respect each other's citizens' rights? Or more specifically, why is it that America has such a big problem understanding that perhaps the non-Americans consider themselves worthy of the same basic human rights? Is that arrogant of (us) non-Americans? It is *this* very attitude which is birthing the "hate" towards the US, that very "hate" which americans find so hard to understand, and account it to envy and jealousy. If you can't afford to give other people/nations the respect they deserve, you shouldn't expect to get any in return. --- From declan at well.com Wed Nov 14 20:44:49 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:44:49 -0500 Subject: FC: Text of Bush's order creating military tribunals for civilians Message-ID: Many folks wrote to me pointing out that President Bush's order was online this morning, probably by the time I sent my note to Politech. It also appeared in today's New York Times. Mea culpa. I wrote my note last night, but did not doublecheck before sending it out this morning and heading off to the Cato Institute conference for the day. I haven't has as much time to look at this as I'd like, but the order says military tribunals will hear cases dealing with only an accused terrorist "who is not a United States citizen." Jason Zengerle has a perhaps-prescient article giving arguments for a military tribunal here: http://www.thenewrepublic.com/111901/zengerle111901.html Previous Politech message: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02794.html -Declan --- http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html For Immediate Release Office of the Press Secretary November 13, 2001 Military Order Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism By the authority vested in me as President and as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the Authorization for Use of Military Force Joint Resolution (Public Law 107-40, 115 Stat. 224) and sections 821 and 836 of title 10, United States Code, it is hereby ordered as follows: Section 1. Findings. (a) International terrorists, including members of al Qaida, have carried out attacks on United States diplomatic and military personnel and facilities abroad and on citizens and property within the United States on a scale that has created a state of armed conflict that requires the use of the United States Armed Forces. (b) In light of grave acts of terrorism and threats of terrorism, including the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, on the headquarters of the United States Department of Defense in the national capital region, on the World Trade Center in New York, and on civilian aircraft such as in Pennsylvania, I proclaimed a national emergency on September 14, 2001 (Proc. 7463, Declaration of National Emergency by Reason of Certain Terrorist Attacks). (c) Individuals acting alone and in concert involved in international terrorism possess both the capability and the intention to undertake further terrorist attacks against the United States that, if not detected and prevented, will cause mass deaths, mass injuries, and massive destruction of property, and may place at risk the continuity of the operations of the United States Government. (d) The ability of the United States to protect the United States and its citizens, and to help its allies and other cooperating nations protect their nations and their citizens, from such further terrorist attacks depends in significant part upon using the United States Armed Forces to identify terrorists and those who support them, to disrupt their activities, and to eliminate their ability to conduct or support such attacks. (e) To protect the United States and its citizens, and for the effective conduct of military operations and prevention of terrorist attacks, it is necessary for individuals subject to this order pursuant to section 2 hereof to be detained, and, when tried, to be tried for violations of the laws of war and other applicable laws by military tribunals. more (OVER) 2 (f) Given the danger to the safety of the United States and the nature of international terrorism, and to the extent provided by and under this order, I find consistent with section 836 of title 10, United States Code, that it is not practicable to apply in military commissions under this order the principles of law and the rules of evidence generally recognized in the trial of criminal cases in the United States district courts. (g) Having fully considered the magnitude of the potential deaths, injuries, and property destruction that would result from potential acts of terrorism against the United States, and the probability that such acts will occur, I have determined that an extraordinary emergency exists for national defense purposes, that this emergency constitutes an urgent and compelling govern-ment interest, and that issuance of this order is necessary to meet the emergency. Sec. 2. Definition and Policy. (a) The term "individual subject to this order" shall mean any individual who is not a United States citizen with respect to whom I determine from time to time in writing that: (1) there is reason to believe that such individual, at the relevant times, (i) is or was a member of the organization known as al Qaida; (ii) has engaged in, aided or abetted, or conspired to commit, acts of international terrorism, or acts in preparation therefor, that have caused, threaten to cause, or have as their aim to cause, injury to or adverse effects on the United States, its citizens, national security, foreign policy, or economy; or (iii) has knowingly harbored one or more individuals described in subparagraphs (i) or (ii) of subsection 2(a)(1) of this order; and (2) it is in the interest of the United States that such individual be subject to this order. (b) It is the policy of the United States that the Secretary of Defense shall take all necessary measures to ensure that any individual subject to this order is detained in accordance with section 3, and, if the individual is to be tried, that such individual is tried only in accordance with section 4. (c) It is further the policy of the United States that any individual subject to this order who is not already under the control of the Secretary of Defense but who is under the control of any other officer or agent of the United States or any State shall, upon delivery of a copy of such written determination to such officer or agent, forthwith be placed under the control of the Secretary of Defense. Sec. 3. Detention Authority of the Secretary of Defense. Any individual subject to this order shall be -- (a) detained at an appropriate location designated by the Secretary of Defense outside or within the United States; (b) treated humanely, without any adverse distinction based on race, color, religion, gender, birth, wealth, or any similar criteria; more 3 (c) afforded adequate food, drinking water, shelter, clothing, and medical treatment; (d) allowed the free exercise of religion consistent with the requirements of such detention; and (e) detained in accordance with such other conditions as the Secretary of Defense may prescribe. Sec. 4. Authority of the Secretary of Defense Regarding Trials of Individuals Subject to this Order. (a) Any individual subject to this order shall, when tried, be tried by military commission for any and all offenses triable by military commission that such individual is alleged to have committed, and may be punished in accordance with the penalties provided under applicable law, including life imprisonment or death. (b) As a military function and in light of the findings in section 1, including subsection (f) thereof, the Secretary of Defense shall issue such orders and regulations, including orders for the appointment of one or more military commissions, as may be necessary to carry out subsection (a) of this section. (c) Orders and regulations issued under subsection (b) of this section shall include, but not be limited to, rules for the conduct of the proceedings of military commissions, including pretrial, trial, and post-trial procedures, modes of proof, issuance of process, and qualifications of attorneys, which shall at a minimum provide for -- (1) military commissions to sit at any time and any place, consistent with such guidance regarding time and place as the Secretary of Defense may provide; (2) a full and fair trial, with the military commission sitting as the triers of both fact and law; (3) admission of such evidence as would, in the opinion of the presiding officer of the military commission (or instead, if any other member of the commission so requests at the time the presiding officer renders that opinion, the opinion of the commission rendered at that time by a majority of the commission), have probative value to a reasonable person; (4) in a manner consistent with the protection of information classified or classifiable under Executive Order 12958 of April 17, 1995, as amended, or any successor Executive Order, protected by statute or rule from unauthorized disclosure, or otherwise protected by law, (A) the handling of, admission into evidence of, and access to materials and information, and (B) the conduct, closure of, and access to proceedings; (5) conduct of the prosecution by one or more attorneys designated by the Secretary of Defense and conduct of the defense by attorneys for the individual subject to this order; (6) conviction only upon the concurrence of two-thirds of the members of the commission present at the time of the vote, a majority being present; (7) sentencing only upon the concurrence of two-thirds of the members of the commission present at the time of the vote, a majority being present; and more (OVER) 4 (8) submission of the record of the trial, including any conviction or sentence, for review and final decision by me or by the Secretary of Defense if so designated by me for that purpose. Sec. 5. Obligation of Other Agencies to Assist the Secretary of Defense. Departments, agencies, entities, and officers of the United States shall, to the maximum extent permitted by law, provide to the Secretary of Defense such assistance as he may request to implement this order. Sec. 6. Additional Authorities of the Secretary of Defense. (a) As a military function and in light of the findings in section 1, the Secretary of Defense shall issue such orders and regulations as may be necessary to carry out any of the provisions of this order. (b) The Secretary of Defense may perform any of his functions or duties, and may exercise any of the powers provided to him under this order (other than under section 4(c)(8) hereof) in accordance with section 113(d) of title 10, United States Code. Sec. 7. Relationship to Other Law and Forums. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to -- (1) authorize the disclosure of state secrets to any person not otherwise authorized to have access to them; (2) limit the authority of the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces or the power of the President to grant reprieves and pardons; or (3) limit the lawful authority of the Secretary of Defense, any military commander, or any other officer or agent of the United States or of any State to detain or try any person who is not an individual subject to this order. (b) With respect to any individual subject to this order -- (1) military tribunals shall have exclusive jurisdiction with respect to offenses by the individual; and (2) the individual shall not be privileged to seek any remedy or maintain any proceeding, directly or indirectly, or to have any such remedy or proceeding sought on the individual's behalf, in (i) any court of the United States, or any State thereof, (ii) any court of any foreign nation, or (iii) any international tribunal. (c) This order is not intended to and does not create any right, benefit, or privilege, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or equity by any party, against the United States, its departments, agencies, or other entities, its officers or employees, or any other person. (d) For purposes of this order, the term "State" includes any State, district, territory, or possession of the United States. more 5 (e) I reserve the authority to direct the Secretary of Defense, at any time hereafter, to transfer to a governmental authority control of any individual subject to this order. Nothing in this order shall be construed to limit the authority of any such governmental authority to prosecute any individual for whom control is transferred. Sec. 8. Publication. This order shall be published in the Federal Register. GEORGE W. BUSH THE WHITE HOUSE, November 13, 2001. # # # --- From declan at well.com Wed Nov 14 20:59:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:59:12 -0500 Subject: Secret congressional briefing on terrorism tomorrow Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011114235842.0257f330@mail.well.com> >Special Orders >Off the Floor: >Members-Only, Classified Briefing on the War on Terrorism. --- Anticipated Floor Schedule: The House will meet at 10:00 a.m. for legislative business. Last Vote Expected: 3-4:00 p.m. One Minutes H.R. 2269-Retirement Security Advice Act of 2001 (Modified Closed Rule, One hour and forty minutes of debate) Rolled Suspension votes (3 bills): 1) H.Con.Res. 228-Expressing the sense of the Congress that the children who lost one or both parents or a guardian in the September 11, 2001, World Trade Center and Pentagon tragedies (including the aircraft crash in Somerset County, Pennsylvania) should be provided with all necessary assistance (As Amended). 2) H.R. 2887-Best Pharmaceuticals for Children Act. 3) H.Con.Res. 239-Expressing the sense of Congress that schools in the United States should set aside a sufficient period of time to allow children to pray for, or quietly reflect on behalf of, the Nation during this time of struggle against the forces of international terrorism. Motion to go to Conference (1 bill): 1) S. 180-Sudan Peace Act Special Orders Off the Floor: Members-Only, Classified Briefing on the War on Terrorism. 3:30-4:30 p.m., HC-5, The Capitol. Briefing will be with Administration officials. Friday's Forecast: The House will meet at 9:00 a.m. for legislative business. Last vote expected: ?? H.R. 3009 - Andean Trade Promotion and Drug Eradication Act (Subject to a Rule) The House may also consider any conference reports as they become available. Saturday's Forecast: The House will meet at 9:00 a.m. for legislative business. Last vote expected: ?? H.R. ___ - Department of Defense Appropriations for Fiscal 2002 (Subject to a Rule) The House may also consider any conference reports as they become available. From declan at well.com Wed Nov 14 21:37:32 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 00:37:32 -0500 Subject: FC: U.K. may order firms to record Net-traffic, ban anon remaiers? Message-ID: It's a little unclear from Statewatch's website what the status of this bill is, but I gather it's been introduced in Parliament as recently as this week. You can find the text here: http://www.statewatch.org/news/2001/nov/08terrorbill.htm Here's the section on data retention: >The Secretary of State shall issue, and may from time to time revise, a >code of practice relating to the retention by communications providers of >communications data obtained by or held by them... It shall be the duty of >a communications provider to comply with any direction... the Secretary of >State may give such directions as he considers appropriate about the >retention of communications data (a) to communications providers >generally; (b) to communications providers of a description specified in >the direction; or (c) to any particular communications providers or provider. If I may, permit me to pose a question to the U.K. lawyers on this list: Does this give the Secretary of State the power to ban anonymous remailers operating inside the U.K.? (Or, more precisely, limit their utility by requiring record-keeping, identity escrow.) I'm not saying, of course, that the secretary would choose to exercise that authority -- at least not right away. The question is whether that authority would exist. Seems to me that "communications providers" may be defined broadly enough for that to be the case. See also: "Europe set to nix Bush request, not require ISP data retention" http://www.politechbot.com/p-02789.html -Declan --- From nobody at hyperreal.pl Wed Nov 14 17:07:36 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 15 Nov 2001 01:07:36 -0000 Subject: Monkeywrenching Message-ID: >Second, training in such matters would be useless and counterproductive. >There is no point in patriotic Americans learning to use weapons and >explosives for the purpose of terrorism. Any attempt to use such tools >would injure or kill people and lead to an even greater loss of our Fuck you, pig. The purpose of guns is to kill and hurt. People don't like getting killed and hurt. That's why guns work. As you know very well. Be careful. There are 40 million armed non-pigs on the continent. Look at the fate of Stasi members. I knew that there was a reason for not shutting down remailers. How else could TLAs post without being JBelled ? From inc at fastmedia.net Wed Nov 14 06:44:56 2001 From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 01:44:56 +1100 Subject: [consim-l] Navajo Code Talkers (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011115014456.54332228.inc@fastmedia.net> deciphered in two easy steps... should have been one step tho. http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 06:41:43 -0600 (CST) Jim Choate wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:11:42 -0500 > From: Allan Rothberg > To: Consim -L > Subject: [consim-l] Navajo Code Talkers > > All, > I tripped over this URL in today's local paper. It is a dictionary of > the code: > www.history.navy.mil/afqs/fa61-2.htm > Allan > > From declan at well.com Wed Nov 14 23:07:56 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 02:07:56 -0500 Subject: U.K. may order firms to record Net-traffic, ban anon remaiers? Message-ID: <20011115020754.A3970@cluebot.com> I'm told this bill is expected to become law by Christmas. ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From jei at cc.hut.fi Wed Nov 14 16:17:35 2001 From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 02:17:35 +0200 (EET) Subject: Foreign Crypto Terrorists To Have A Military Trial Message-ID: The USA can do no wrong: (2) the individual shall not be privileged to seek any remedy or maintain any proceeding, directly or indirectly, or to have any such remedy or proceeding sought on the individual's behalf, in (i) any court of the United States, or any State thereof, (ii) any court of any foreign nation, or (iii) any international tribunal. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 05:19:15 +1100 From: Bond Reply-To: ParanoidTimes at yahoogroups.com To: ParanoidTimes at yahoogroups.com Subject: [ParanoidTimes] Bush's Military Order On Detention.... For Immediate Release Office of the Press Secretary November 13, 2001 Military Order Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism By the authority vested in me as President and as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the Authorization for Use of Military Force Joint Resolution (Public Law 107-40, 115 Stat. 224) and sections 821 and 836 of title 10, United States Code, it is hereby ordered as follows: Section 1. Findings. (a) International terrorists, including members of al Qaida, have carried out attacks on United States diplomatic and military personnel and facilities abroad and on citizens and property within the United States on a scale that has created a state of armed conflict that requires the use of the United States Armed Forces. (b) In light of grave acts of terrorism and threats of terrorism, including the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, on the headquarters of the United States Department of Defense in the national capital region, on the World Trade Center in New York, and on civilian aircraft such as in Pennsylvania, I proclaimed a national emergency on September 14, 2001 (Proc. 7463, Declaration of National Emergency by Reason of Certain Terrorist Attacks). (c) Individuals acting alone and in concert involved in international terrorism possess both the capability and the intention to undertake further terrorist attacks against the United States that, if not detected and prevented, will cause mass deaths, mass injuries, and massive destruction of property, and may place at risk the continuity of the operations of the United States Government. (d) The ability of the United States to protect the United States and its citizens, and to help its allies and other cooperating nations protect their nations and their citizens, from such further terrorist attacks depends in significant part upon using the United States Armed Forces to identify terrorists and those who support them, to disrupt their activities, and to eliminate their ability to conduct or support such attacks. (e) To protect the United States and its citizens, and for the effective conduct of military operations and prevention of terrorist attacks, it is necessary for individuals subject to this order pursuant to section 2 hereof to be detained, and, when tried, to be tried for violations of the laws of war and other applicable laws by military tribunals. (f) Given the danger to the safety of the United States and the nature of international terrorism, and to the extent provided by and under this order, I find consistent with section 836 of title 10, United States Code, that it is not practicable to apply in military commissions under this order the principles of law and the rules of evidence generally recognized in the trial of criminal cases in the United States district courts. (g) Having fully considered the magnitude of the potential deaths, injuries, and property destruction that would result from potential acts of terrorism against the United States, and the probability that such acts will occur, I have determined that an extraordinary emergency exists for national defense purposes, that this emergency constitutes an urgent and compelling government interest, and that issuance of this order is necessary to meet the emergency. Sec. 2. Definition and Policy. (a) The term "individual subject to this order" shall mean any individual who is not a United States citizen with respect to whom I determine from time to time in writing that: (1) there is reason to believe that such individual, at the relevant times, (i) is or was a member of the organization known as al Qaida; (ii) has engaged in, aided or abetted, or conspired to commit, acts of international terrorism, or acts in preparation therefor, that have caused, threaten to cause, or have as their aim to cause, injury to or adverse effects on the United States, its citizens, national security, foreign policy, or economy; or (iii) has knowingly harbored one or more individuals described in subparagraphs (i) or (ii) of subsection 2(a)(1) of this order; and (2) it is in the interest of the United States that such individual be subject to this order. (b) It is the policy of the United States that the Secretary of Defense shall take all necessary measures to ensure that any individual subject to this order is detained in accordance with section 3, and, if the individual is to be tried, that such individual is tried only in accordance with section 4. (c) It is further the policy of the United States that any individual subject to this order who is not already under the control of the Secretary of Defense but who is under the control of any other officer or agent of the United States or any State shall, upon delivery of a copy of such written determination to such officer or agent, forthwith be placed under the control of the Secretary of Defense. Sec. 3. Detention Authority of the Secretary of Defense. Any individual subject to this order shall be -- (a) detained at an appropriate location designated by the Secretary of Defense outside or within the United States; (b) treated humanely, without any adverse distinction based on race, color, religion, gender, birth, wealth, or any similar criteria; (c) afforded adequate food, drinking water, shelter, clothing, and medical treatment; (d) allowed the free exercise of religion consistent with the requirements of such detention; and (e) detained in accordance with such other conditions as the Secretary of Defense may prescribe. Sec. 4. Authority of the Secretary of Defense Regarding Trials of Individuals Subject to this Order. (a) Any individual subject to this order shall, when tried, be tried by military commission for any and all offenses triable by military commission that such individual is alleged to have committed, and may be punished in accordance with the penalties provided under applicable law, including life imprisonment or death. (b) As a military function and in light of the findings in section 1, including subsection (f) thereof, the Secretary of Defense shall issue such orders and regulations, including orders for the appointment of one or more military commissions, as may be necessary to carry out subsection (a) of this section. (c) Orders and regulations issued under subsection (b) of this section shall include, but not be limited to, rules for the conduct of the proceedings of military commissions, including pretrial, trial, and post-trial procedures, modes of proof, issuance of process, and qualifications of attorneys, which shall at a minimum provide for -- (1) military commissions to sit at any time and any place, consistent with such guidance regarding time and place as the Secretary of Defense may provide; (2) a full and fair trial, with the military commission sitting as the triers of both fact and law; (3) admission of such evidence as would, in the opinion of the presiding officer of the military commission (or instead, if any other member of the commission so requests at the time the presiding officer renders that opinion, the opinion of the commission rendered at that time by a majority of the commission), have probative value to a reasonable person; (4) in a manner consistent with the protection of information classified or classifiable under Executive Order 12958 of April 17, 1995, as amended, or any successor Executive Order, protected by statute or rule from unauthorized disclosure, or otherwise protected by law, (A) the handling of, admission into evidence of, and access to materials and information, and (B) the conduct, closure of, and access to proceedings; (5) conduct of the prosecution by one or more attorneys designated by the Secretary of Defense and conduct of the defense by attorneys for the individual subject to this order; (6) conviction only upon the concurrence of two-thirds of the members of the commission present at the time of the vote, a majority being present; (7) sentencing only upon the concurrence of two-thirds of the members of the commission present at the time of the vote, a majority being present; and (8) submission of the record of the trial, including any conviction or sentence, for review and final decision by me or by the Secretary of Defense if so designated by me for that purpose. Sec. 5. Obligation of Other Agencies to Assist the Secretary of Defense. Departments, agencies, entities, and officers of the United States shall, to the maximum extent permitted by law, provide to the Secretary of Defense such assistance as he may request to implement this order. Sec. 6. Additional Authorities of the Secretary of Defense. (a) As a military function and in light of the findings in section 1, the Secretary of Defense shall issue such orders and regulations as may be necessary to carry out any of the provisions of this order. (b) The Secretary of Defense may perform any of his functions or duties, and may exercise any of the powers provided to him under this order (other than under section 4(c)(8) hereof) in accordance with section 113(d) of title 10, United States Code. Sec. 7. Relationship to Other Law and Forums. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to -- (1) authorize the disclosure of state secrets to any person not otherwise authorized to have access to them; (2) limit the authority of the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces or the power of the President to grant reprieves and pardons; or (3) limit the lawful authority of the Secretary of Defense, any military commander, or any other officer or agent of the United States or of any State to detain or try any person who is not an individual subject to this order. (b) With respect to any individual subject to this order -- (1) military tribunals shall have exclusive jurisdiction with respect to offenses by the individual; and (2) the individual shall not be privileged to seek any remedy or maintain any proceeding, directly or indirectly, or to have any such remedy or proceeding sought on the individual's behalf, in (i) any court of the United States, or any State thereof, (ii) any court of any foreign nation, or (iii) any international tribunal. (c) This order is not intended to and does not create any right, benefit, or privilege, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or equity by any party, against the United States, its departments, agencies, or other entities, its officers or employees, or any other person. (d) For purposes of this order, the term "State" includes any State, district, territory, or possession of the United States. (e) I reserve the authority to direct the Secretary of Defense, at any time hereafter, to transfer to a governmental authority control of any individual subject to this order. Nothing in this order shall be construed to limit the authority of any such governmental authority to prosecute any individual for whom control is transferred. Sec. 8. Publication. This order shall be published in the Federal Register. GEORGE W. BUSH THE WHITE HOUSE, November 13, 2001. Source: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html http://cryptome.org/pmo111301.htm From admin at americancenter.com Thu Nov 15 04:47:43 2001 From: admin at americancenter.com (ALC) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 04:47:43 PST Subject: ALC Learn English- 156-0000 Joyful NIGHT! Cheerful DAY! Happy LIFE! 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Pray for guidance and give thanks for your blessings every day. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Эксклюзивная авторская методика Все стадии обучения : от нуля до высшего ПРИЕМЛЕМЫЕ ЦЕНЫ плюс ВЫСШЕЕ КАЧЕСТВО LOWEST CHARGES plus HIGHEST GRATIFICATION ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Moscow, Russia ------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, please click or copy and paste the following address into your browser: http://em5000.com/unsub.php?client=twisted_solo&listname=ALCV3&email=cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5038 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alan at netfreedom.org Wed Nov 14 22:53:12 2001 From: alan at netfreedom.org (Alan Docherty) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 06:53:12 -0000 Subject: U.K. may order firms to record Net-traffic, ban anon remaiers? Message-ID: Declan, The Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill was introduced to Parliament on Monday and the legislation will go before the House of Commons next week for its second reading and committee stages. The Bill is expected to become law before Christmas. Alan Docherty Editor Internet Freedom News http://www.netfreedom.org --- From casey.iverson at hushmail.com Thu Nov 15 08:10:50 2001 From: casey.iverson at hushmail.com (casey.iverson at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 08:10:50 -0800 Subject: Mein Kampf Message-ID: <200111151610.fAFGAoZ76803@mailserver1.hushmail.com> On Wed, 14 Nov Tim May, Der Fuhrer spews: >I hope to see the day when millions of them are gassed. Let's start building the ovens now. Der Fuhrer's list is growing. Hiel May From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 14 23:20:16 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 08:20:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: Red Herring: Terrorism and the challenge to globalization. Message-ID: <829e33c28a0aa7b14c14b173396659d6@dizum.com> > [Another glimmer of hope as even some of the mainstream business press is > venturing beyond simple patriotic flag waving. Posted in its entirety > as its not online.] > > Terrorism and the challenge to globalization. > BY PETER SCHWARTZ Stupid article, and your comment doesn't make much sense either. First, the terrorist attacks are the best thing that has ever happened for globalization. No one is a purer anti-globalist than bin Laden. Now the anti-global movement is associated with death and terror. Anti-globalization protests have been scaled back and cancelled all around the world since September 11. To the extent that radical Islam is the new standard bearer for anti-globalism, the movement is doomed. Contrary to the predictions of this article, the only hope for the anti-globalists is to disassociate themselves as fast as possible from Islamic terrorism. That's going to be tough, given the images that are burned forever into people's minds. Second, we can update Gordon Gecko's line from Wall Street. Instead of "greed is good," now "globalism is good". Globalism is a matter of free association and free choice for billions of people. It represents market capitalism at its best, with each country providing those goods and services at which it has a comparative advantage. Globalism is freedom. Third, cypherpunk technologies will promote globalism. To the extent that the future is cast as a battle between global capitalism and democracy, technology is on the side of capitalism. Democracy is an inherently coercive institution. It relies on physical force to achieve its goals. Capitalism is non-coercive. It is cooperative. It invites, it does not compel. Cypherpunk technologies enhance the opportunities to interact in cooperative ways, free of external coercion. If they can't see what you do, they can't control what you do. Cypherpunks are supporting globalism by their actions, whether they understand that or not. From declan at well.com Thu Nov 15 06:16:30 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:16:30 -0500 Subject: Al-Jazeera office in Kabul obliterated by US bombing In-Reply-To: <20011115201421.7f12d85b.inc@fastmedia.net>; from inc@fastmedia.net on Thu, Nov 15, 2001 at 08:14:21PM +1100 References: <20011115201421.7f12d85b.inc@fastmedia.net> Message-ID: <20011115091630.A28205@cluebot.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,592832,00.html On Thu, Nov 15, 2001 at 08:14:21PM +1100, cpaul wrote: > [i have no link.] > > The Kabul office of the Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera, the Arab > satellite station that has broadcast two videotapes of Osama bin Laden > denouncing America, was obliterated in US bombing early yesterday morning. > One American bomb fell 20 yards from the office, heavily damaging the > Qatar-based satellite television network's offices before Northern Alliance > forces entered the Afghan capital, network and Pentagon officials said. From mean-green at hushmail.com Thu Nov 15 09:34:43 2001 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:34:43 -0800 Subject: Red Herring: Terrorism and the challenge to globalization. Message-ID: <200111151734.fAFHYhm01326@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 08:20 AM 11/15/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: > [Another glimmer of hope as even some of the mainstream business press is > venturing beyond simple patriotic flag waving. Posted in its entirety > as its not online.] > > Terrorism and the challenge to globalization. > BY PETER SCHWARTZ Stupid article, and your comment doesn't make much sense either. First, the terrorist attacks are the best thing that has ever happened for globalization. No one is a purer anti-globalist than bin Laden. Now the anti-global movement is associated with death and terror. Anti-globalization protests have been scaled back and cancelled all around the world since September 11. To the extent that radical Islam is the new standard bearer for anti-globalism, the movement is doomed. ----------------------------------- My comments had nothing directly to do with globalization and everything to do with the (unintended?) consequences of arrogant and naive domestic and foreign policies. From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 15 09:43:47 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:43:47 -0800 Subject: The killing of Bill Cooper and Liquid Metal Embrittlement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <529A507D-D9F0-11D5-A1BC-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Wednesday, November 14, 2001, at 10:39 AM, Tim May wrote: > > An LME solution smeared along wing or panel sections could cause > catastrophic failure during high stress flight phases, e.g., takeoffs > and, to a lesser extent, landings. We ran a few scenarios about how > easy it would be bring down an airliner, further spreading fear. Sounds like something Kissinger did in what, 1983? An Open Letter to the President published IIRC in Omni magazine. > So what happened on Monday morning? From the reports I'm reading, it > looks like the tail section broke off shortly after takeoff, during > relatively high-g banking manouvers. CNN is saying this is an > "unprecedented" failure mechanism for the A300. Airplanes crash with an unsettling degree of frequency. -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From webmaster at casinohopper.com Thu Nov 15 08:46:11 2001 From: webmaster at casinohopper.com (Webmaster) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:46:11 -0600 Subject: CasinoHopper Mega List!!! Message-ID: <4534358-2200111415164611657@casinohopper.com> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ CASINOHOPPER NEWSLETTER $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ %125 SIGN UP BONUS AT FIVE ROSES Sign up today at Five Roses casino and get %125 bonus!! Deposit $100 and get $125!! %100 MATCH BONUS A CLUB DICE CASINO!! 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From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 15 10:57:26 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:57:26 -0800 Subject: Al-Jazeera office in Kabul obliterated by US bombing In-Reply-To: <20011115201421.7f12d85b.inc@fastmedia.net> Message-ID: <3BF39F96.24549.ABDBE1@localhost> On 15 Nov 2001, at 20:14, cpaul wrote: > The Kabul office of the Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera, the Arab > satellite station that has broadcast two videotapes of Osama bin Laden > denouncing America, was obliterated in US bombing early yesterday morning. Next, Berkeley. From jei at cc.hut.fi Thu Nov 15 01:05:04 2001 From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 11:05:04 +0200 (EET) Subject: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal Message-ID: I thought this would be relevant to the list members. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html http://cryptome.org/pmo111301.htm http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/11/13/193921.shtml And what is a Crypto Terrorist, you ask? Of course, it is someone who hides things with cryptography, e.g. a potential Cyber Terrorist. ;-P ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:43:51 -0400 From: John Noble Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: FC: President Bush says military tribunals will try civilian cases (fwd) At 9:07 PM -0500 11/14/01, Andrew C. Greenberg wrote: >I saw the part in article III about one supreme court and subsidiary >courts. Sorry, where, exactly, does it say that military tribunals have >jurisdiction over civilians? > Article III extends the judicial power to cases arising under the Constitution, laws of the United States, etc. Article I authorizes Congress to define and punish offenses against the law of nations, something apparently apart from the laws of the United States. The real issue is not an Article III tribunal vs an Article I tribunal, but whether you get the little niceties like a public trial, a jury, and a lawyer. In other words, it's not about whether the military tribunal has jurisdiction, but whether the "defendant" has constitutional rights in either forum. Wong Wing v. U.S., 163 US 228 (1896) holds that resident aliens are entitled to the protection of the 5th and 6th Amendment (due process, jury trial) if they are to be charged and imprisoned instead of deported. U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 US 1092 (1990) distinguishes Wong Wing in holding the 4th Amendment does not apply to searches outside of the United States where the alien has "no significant voluntary connection" to the U.S. In that case the defendant was grabbed and his house searched in Mexico before he was whisked into the U.S. for trial, where his 4th Amendment claims were rejected because the Bill of Rights doesn't protect non-resident aliens. It is likely that the rationale of Verdugo-Urquidez supports the constitutionality of the executive order as applied to alleged terrorists captured in Afghanistan, and either tried there or like Verdugo-Rodriguez brought here involuntarily. Non-resident aliens are simply unprotected by the Bill of Rights. With respect to those captured in the U.S., Ex parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942) indicates that "unlawful belligerents" accused of violations of the "laws of war" are not entitled to jury trials because violations of the laws of war were not among the crimes triable by jury at common law (like claims in equity). The problem is the uncertain scope of the terms "laws of war" and "unlawful belligerents" -- Quirin seems to be define each only by reference to the other, and the terms seem even less exact today than they did in 1942. Quirin characterizes as unlawful belligerents (in contrast with lawful belligerents who must be treated as POWs) those "secretly passing through the defenses of the United States in civilian dress, for purpose of committing hostile acts." In the context of the current "war on terrorism," the terrorists found in the U.S. likely qualify as unlawful belligerents if they are here to commit "hostile acts." It seems to me that "hostile acts" might include money laundering, drug smuggling, even credit card fraud. It's not even clear that the "hostile acts" have to be otherwise criminal acts, but it is clear from Quirin that ordinary crimes, like conspiracy to blow up a building, can be re-cast as violations of the law of war when perpetrated by "unlawful belligerents." Moreover, Quirin indicates that even U.S. citizenship does not entitle an unlawful belligerent to a jury trial. Quirin claimed to have been a citizen since he was 4 years old, an issue that the Court found unnecessary to address. The problem with this is that in Quirin the court looked to a real honest-to-god declaration of war as the source of the President's authority to send the German spies to a military tribunal. This time, we're looking at a joint resolution authorizing the President to use necessary and appropriate force to end terrorism, which is undefined. The foreign belligerent is not a foreign nation, but a network that is not altogether foreign. It raises a question as to whether there is a distinction between a war on terrorism, and, for example, a war on drug trafficking; or whether terrorism might be defined to include drug trafficking, or almost any other anti-social behavior that we want to deal with free of all the nasty complications caused by lawyers and juries. How hard would it be to define people who blow up abortion clinics, or set free lab animals, or write computer viruses, or (you'll like this, Andrew) distribute DeCSS, as among the enemies in the war against terrorism. John Noble ********************************************************************** For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com ********************************************************************** From jei at cc.hut.fi Thu Nov 15 01:42:59 2001 From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 11:42:59 +0200 (EET) Subject: Gross Usurpation of Power Message-ID: Gross Usurpation of Power by David Dieteman The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people, equally in war and in peace, and covers with the shield of its protection all classes of men, at all times, and under all circumstances. No doctrine, involving more pernicious consequences, was ever invented by the wit of man than that any of its provisions can be suspended during any of the great exigencies of government. ~ Ex parte Milligan, 71 U.S. 2 (1866) A great many conservatives have uncritically accepted the expansion of government powers in the wake of the terrible events of September 11. They have acquiesced in the creation of the Bureau of Homeland Security, an entity which would have made the Founding Fathers cringe, if not revolt (they revolted against much less). One hopes that such alleged conservatives, who profess to value limited government, the rule of law, and liberty, will be disturbed by one of President Bush's recent actions. On November 13, President Bush signed an order allowing military trials of terrorism suspects, rather than civil courts. As the Washington Post reports, The presidential directive, signed by Bush as commander in chief, applies to non-U.S. citizens arrested in the United States or abroad. The president himself will decide which defendants will be tried by military tribunals. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld will appoint each panel and set its rules and procedures, including the level of proof needed for a conviction. There will be no judicial review. The only review will be by the U.S. President and the Secretary of Defense. No American court, and no international tribunal, will be able to review the acts of this Star Chamber. The administration seeks to avoid the Constitution by applying the order only to foreigners, rather than to U.S. citizens. Guess what: that's largely unconstitutional as well. The guarantee of due process of law is universal in its application to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction of a state or the United States, without regard to any differences of race, color, or nationality, when they have come within the territory of the United States and have developed substantial connections with this country. 16B Am. Jur.2d Constitutional Law § 928; U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 110 S.Ct. 1056, 1064 (1990). As a matter of international law, it may be argued that, if the foreign state consents to American exercise of such power overseas, i.e., if Afghanistan consents to an American Star Chamber handing out death sentences to Afghans, then such power is legitimately exercised. This would be a matter of treaty, or other such international agreement. Such a new policy, however, would be contrary to what is arguably an evolving norm of international law, i.e., utilizing international tribunals to try war criminals. In the case of Nuremberg, Rwanda, and the former Yugoslavia, international tribunals were established to handle war crimes. These tribunals have been attacked as conducting mere show trials, which is bad enough. The Bush administration complains, however, that international tribunals do not administer the death penalty. This is disturbing, even if possibly allowed under international law. Recall that last week, the Justice Department authorized the wiretapping of conversations between prisoners and their attorneys. So much for attorney-client privilege. What's next: wiretaps in the confessional? And another question: remember Senator Kerrey? So much for quick justice when an American is accused. What if Vietnam were a superpower seeking to impose a Star Chamber on a feeble and impoverished United States? Does might make right? To some people, it seems that it does. Note: with respect to Senator Kerrey, and to the Afghan war, I continue to have grave reservations about international criminal tribunals. A military tribunal would be appropriate for Kerrey because he is accused of crimes while a member of the armed forces; that is within the jurisdiction of a military tribunal. In addition, I would not object if those foreigners seized by the United States in the war on terrorism were tried in U.S. civil courts; that is within the jurisdiction of the civil courts. The problem with President Bush's order is that it simply ignores the Constitutional limits on executive power. The due process of law is not given when the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments are simply ignored. As Justice Davis wrote in Ex parte Milligan, 71 U.S. 2 (1866), Certainly no part of judicial power of the country was conferred on them, because the Constitution expressly vests it "in one supreme court and such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish," and it is not pretended that the commission was a court ordained and established by Congress. They cannot justify on the mandate of the President, because he is controlled by law, and has his appropriate sphere of duty, which is to execute, not to make, the laws, and there is "no unwritten criminal code to which resort can be had as a source of jurisdiction." To be blunt, President Bush has no authority under the U.S. Constitution to make such an order. None. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Albert Gonzales, a former Texas Supreme Court judge, claimed that there was precedent for the order. Indeed there is. It is bad precedent. Abraham Lincoln famously tried opponents of the War Between the States in military courts. The United States Supreme Court unambiguously declared in Ex parte Milligan, however, that it was unconstitutional to try civilians before a military court when the civil courts, i.e., the regular courthouses you see on The Practice, were open and operating, and in no way threatened by the war. As Justice Davis wrote in Milligan, (read the opinion here), there are occasions when martial rule can be properly applied. If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war. Note the following: no civil courts are "actually closed" in the United States today. There is no "theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails" such that the civil courts cannot function. This, as the Milligan court noted, is a gross usurpation of power. The factual circumstances confronted by Milligan, if anything, were more serious than those facing the United States today. Lambdin Milligan, a citizen of Indiana, was arrested for allegedly conspiring to capture an arsenal, free Confederate prisoners, and for intending to join Confederate forces in Missouri. He was brought before a Military Commission, and sentenced to death. Despite the fact that there was a war going on, the court found that the military trial was unconstitutional. Very importantly, the court observed that No graver question was ever considered by this court, nor one which nearly concerns the rights of the whole people; for it is the birthright of every American citizen when charged with crime, to be tried and punished according to law. The power of punishment is alone through the means which the laws have provided for that purpose, and if they are ineffectual, there is an immunity from punishment, no matter how great an offender the individual may be, or how much his crimes may have shocked the sense of justice of the country, or endangered its safety. By the protection of the law human rights are secured; withdraw that protection, and they are at the mercy of wicked rulers, or the clamor of an excited people. The rule set forth in Ex parte Milligan, then, squarely controls any decision regarding the order issued by President Bush. The order is unconstitutional, plain and simple. "No emergency justifies the violation of any of the provisions of the United States Constitution. An emergency...cannot create power...but may allow the exercise of power already in existence, but not exercised except during an emergency." 16B Am. Jur.2d Constitutional Law § 52 (citations omitted). As the Nebraska Supreme Court put it, the Constitution was adopted in a state of emergency, the limits on the powers of the government were conceived in the light of emergency, and the limits are not changed by emergency. First Trust Co. v. Smith, 134 Neb. 84, 115, 277 N.W. 762, 778 (1938). For those wondering why such an order was signed, the Washington Post reports that the move was encouraged for weeks by conservative lawyers from past administrations and other experts who cited precedents dating back to the Civil War. One of them, George Terwilliger, a former high-ranking Justice Department official, said a military tribunal would be appropriate for anyone who commits an act of war against the United States. In fact, Terwilliger was the former Deputy Attorney General to George Bush. He handled the Florida election cases for President Bush. Although he is now in private practice, he was reported to have been a leading candidate to be head of the FBI. The administration has sought to justify the order on the grounds that "This is a global war. To have successful prosecutions, we might have to give up sources and methods" in a civilian court. "We don't want to have to do that," Albert Gonzales told ABC News. The Washington Post, meanwhile, reports that President Bush claimed the tribunals are needed because terrorism could "place at risk the continuity of the operations of the United States government." It is "not practicable," he said, to require the tribunals to abide by the "principles of law and the rules of evidence" that govern U.S. criminal prosecutions. Does the Taliban have troops on the streets of Washington, DC? No. And yet it's "not practicable" to follow the principles of law and the rules of evidence. To put it mildly, this is a dangerous step for the government to take. Much like the Patriot Act, which Rep. Ron Paul reports was not given to members to read before it was voted upon. The Patriot Act, by the way, authorizes increased governmental snooping powers which do not require a warrant, and which are therefore contrary to the Constitution. The Patriot Act is unconstitutional due to the fact that even social emergencies "cannot routinely justify invasions of privacy or restrictions on expression without devaluing and eventually destroying those rights." Halperin v. Kissinger, 606 F.2d 1192, 1201 (D.C. Cir. 1979)(subsequent history omitted), cited in 16B Am. Jur.2d Constitutional Law § 52. (Halperin v. Kissinger, by the way, cites Milligan for the proposition that only when the courthouses are physically closed may normal judicial processes be circumvented). The reason? "It would be ironic if, in the name of national defense, we would sanction the subversion of one of those liberties which makes the defense of the nation worthwhile." Halperin v. Kissinger, 606 F.2d 1192, 1199 (D.C. Cir. 1979). So which is it: do conservatives have no sense of irony, or do they have no respect for constitutional liberty? A pair of Texans ought to be ashamed to follow precedent established by Abraham Lincoln in a war against Texas. A Republican president, and an alleged "conservative," ought to be ashamed to follow the arch-Democrat, FDR. President Bush should repeal his order. It is unconstitutional, unwise, and unnecessary. November 15, 2001 Mr. Dieteman is an attorney in Erie, Pennsylvania, and a PhD candidate in philosophy at The Catholic University of America. © 2001 David Dieteman ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From jei at cc.hut.fi Thu Nov 15 01:44:22 2001 From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 11:44:22 +0200 (EET) Subject: Bush Order on Military Tribunals. Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 01:52:11 -0500 From: Matthew Gaylor To: Matthew Gaylor Subject: Bush Order on Military Tribunals... Bush Order on Military Tribunals is Further Evidence That Government is Abandoning Democracy's Checks and Balances Statement of Laura W. Murphy, Director ACLU Washington National Office FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Wednesday, November 14, 2001 WASHINGTON -- The American Civil Liberties Union is deeply disturbed by President Bush's executive order allowing special military tribunals to try non-citizens charged with terrorism. The tribunals would even reach non-citizens in the United States, including lawful permanent residents. To our knowledge, the move to establish a military tribunal when Congress has not declared war is unprecedented. We do not believe that the Administration has shown that the constitutional jury trial system does not allow for the prosecution of those accused of terrorist activities. Absent such a compelling justification, the President's decision is further evidence that the Administration is totally unwilling to abide by the checks and balances that are so central to our democracy. The use of military tribunals would apparently authorize secret trials without a jury and without the requirement of a unanimous verdict and would limit a defendant's opportunities to confront the evidence against him and choose his own lawyer. What's worse, these important legal protections would be removed in a situation where defendants may very well be facing the death penalty. It is difficult to understand how the Administration can justify the use of a tribunal when the United States has successfully tried in our courts non-citizens accused of terrorist acts, organized crime, and others in situations where the safety of jurors and the disclosure of government intelligence methods were at issue. As the prosecutions of the 1993 World Trade Center bombers and Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh demonstrate, the government has managed to protect the safety and identity of jurors while achieving convictions in terrorism cases. And there is already a system established to handle classified information in the course of a trial; it is called the Classified Information Procedures Act. For decades, CIPA has adequately balanced national security and due process concerns. The government has made no showing that CIPA procedures would not be adequate in these circumstances as well. Further, it would be hypocritical of the United States to impose such a tribunal when we have repeatedly protested the use of such courts against U.S. citizens abroad. Congress has already given the Administration and the Justice Department virtually everything they asked for to fight terrorism. This latest move, combined with the Justice Department's announced intentions to eavesdrop on attorney conversations with inmates and to begin interviewing foreign visitors to the United States, demonstrates the government's increasing willingness to circumvent the requirements of the Bill of Rights. We call on Congress to exercise its oversight powers before the Bill of Rights in America is distorted beyond recognition. Copyright 2001, The American Civil Liberties Union ### From susanna at ilbuongustaio.it Thu Nov 15 03:38:42 2001 From: susanna at ilbuongustaio.it (susanna at ilbuongustaio.it) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:38:42 +0100 Subject: [mailingList] Enjoy the great taste of Italy Message-ID: Hello, Il Buongustaio was born in 1985 and step by step became very famous for its Gourmet gift boxes. The boxes contain the Best of Italy of gourmet specialities. Please visit our web-site: www.ilbuongustaio.it where you can also find our “Collection 2001”. These boxes are perfect as a gift for yourself, your friends, collegues, relatives etc. Also, we have a special section for Corporate buyers. Furthermore, if you register filling out our form, you can win a prize! Don’t forget to visit: www.ilbuongustaio.it! Sincerely, Il Buongustaio Italy Your address is part of a list that we purchased from www.e-MailList.net. If you wish to be removed from this list, please reply to this message, writing “cancel” in subject. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 756 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Nov 15 12:50:05 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:50:05 -0800 Subject: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal In-Reply-To: <426bade14cabb31519c263b9ca611a5b@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: Somebody wrote: > > At 9:07 PM -0500 11/14/01, Andrew C. > > Greenberg wrote: > > >I saw the part in article III about > > >one supreme court and subsidiary > > >courts. Sorry, where, exactly, does > > >it say that military tribunals have > > >jurisdiction over civilians? > > Read the fucking order at cryptome: > > Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War > Against Terrorism > > See that? "Non-Citizens", you stupid fucks! What a barrel of retards > we've got around here. Civilians /= citizen. Non-citizens are civilians (unless they are also soldiers), so Andrew's question still obtains. S a n d y From mattd at useoz.com Wed Nov 14 17:56:04 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:56:04 +1100 Subject: Monkeywrenching Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011115124842.00a1b710@pop.useoz.com> "A good example of monkeywrenching can be found at the article posted earlier, http://www.keepandbeararms.com/angel/articles/consterrorist.htm. This shows an apparently legitimate flyer from the "Phoenix FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force" telling people whom they should watch out for. It includes people who "make numerous references to the US constitution", people who are "'defenders' of the US constitution against federal government and the UN", people who attempt to "police the police" and so on." Who reads these days? Comics are the go,if you cant mangarize the infamous cia manual comic from nica,just print it off as is.Future generations will thank you and the poetic justice aspect of it is exquiste,almost worth being tortured and executed for.Dont get caught waxing the SUV.kids....and...be careful out there. From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Thu Nov 15 12:24:29 2001 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:24:29 -0700 Subject: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal Message-ID: <426bade14cabb31519c263b9ca611a5b@noisebox.remailer.org> Jei writes: > I thought this would be relevant to the list members. > > http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html > > http://cryptome.org/pmo111301.htm > > http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/11/13/193921.shtml > > And what is a Crypto Terrorist, you ask? Of course, > it is someone who hides things with cryptography, > e.g. a potential Cyber Terrorist. ;-P > > At 9:07 PM -0500 11/14/01, Andrew C. Greenberg wrote: > >I saw the part in article III about one supreme court and subsidiary > >courts. Sorry, where, exactly, does it say that military tribunals have > >jurisdiction over civilians? Read the fucking order at cryptome: Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism See that? "Non-Citizens", you stupid fucks! What a barrel of retards we've got around here. From jokes at freeall.com Thu Nov 15 13:47:13 2001 From: jokes at freeall.com (Free4all Jokes) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:47:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joke of the Day! Nov 16 Message-ID: <20011115214713.36513.qmail@web12405.mail.yahoo.com> --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- CLICK HERE FOR THOUSANDS OF JOKES OR TO SUBSCRIBE TO JOKE OF THE DAY --------------------------------- If you do not wish to receive this mail please unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to the unsubscribe address. Your unsubscribe address: jokes-unsubscribe-cypherpunks=toad.com at bob.free4all.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1078 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at trafficsecret.com Thu Nov 15 10:58:45 2001 From: info at trafficsecret.com (info at trafficsecret.com) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:58:45 -0500 Subject: ..his business plan Message-ID: Dear Friend, When I decided to get serious about making money on the Internet, it seemed that everywhere I went, I was pointed to the same guy for the tools and resources that are CRITICAL to anyone's online success. In fact, after a little research, I discovered that this guy has... OVER 11,258 SITES THAT ARE RECOMMENDING HIM TODAY ... as the Internet's #1 online marketing resource. I just wanted to send you a quick e-mail to introduce you to the guy who has shown myself and literally thousands of netrepreneurs, just like you and me, how to earn a SERIOUS INCOME on the Internet. The fellow I am talking about is Corey Rudl, the owner of 4 extremely successful online businesses and author of the #1 BEST-SELLING Internet Marketing course. One of his web sites alone receives over 6,000,000 visitors every single year... so he must know what he is doing! When I visited his site, I was completely shocked by the huge volumes of Internet marketing tips and strategies -- critical to the success of your e-business -- that I was faced with. Corey has tested absolutely everything and will show you the EXACT RESULTS YOU CAN EXPECT when you start using his techniques because he knows what works and what doesn't. I am talking about the strategies and techniques like... - How to literally DOUBLE THE SUBSCRIBERS TO YOUR OPT-IN E-MAIL LIST by making this one simple change to your site. - How Corey FOOLED THE SEARCH ENGINES and directories into making him $51,925 in 14 weeks, and how he still uses this technique to make $15,000+ per month. - How to INCREASE YOUR PROFITS BY UP TO 63.8% -- by teaming up with your competitors. - How to GET 40% OF YOUR CUSTOMERS TO BUY A SECOND PRODUCT -- before they even leave your site. ... and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Corey skips the theoretical approach and tackles hundreds of step-by-step strategies that you can APPLY TO YOUR BUSINESS TODAY to instantly increase your profits on the Internet. When I found Corey Rudl and this extremely powerful information, I was so shocked that I could not wait -- I had to share it with my customers and subscribers so that you can reap the profits as well. So please do not hesitate and go to The Internet is still moving at lightening speed and a resource like Corey Rudl and the Internet Marketing Center is absolutely invaluable to any netrepreneur who wants to SKIP THE FAILING PROMOTIONS and FAST-TRACK YOUR SUCCESS by knowing exactly what works, the moment it's discovered! All the best, ---------------------------------------------- If you no longer wish to receive this Newsletter please click here: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 15 06:03:45 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 14:03:45 +0000 Subject: FBI wants to believe in domestic terrorists. References: <3BEAC6E9.32485.1E21872@localhost> <20011112121434.A2762@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BF3CB41.520673DA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Oy! I wanted to be an infiltrator! Are you saying that I have to be an ally? Ken (lefter than a left thing) Brown Declan McCullagh wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 05:54:49PM -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > > Should the FBI RICO members of this mailing list, the list > > will be reported in the press as a right wing extremist hate > > group. > > Don't be silly. Mainstream pop-journalists will be forced to note the > presence of anarchist-types here (hello, proffr) and conclude that > cypherpunks is an "unprecedented, according to law enforcement > sources, alliance of left and right extremist hate groups." > > -Declan From faustine at lokmail.net Thu Nov 15 12:06:36 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:06:36 -0500 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" Message-ID: <200111152006.PAA04050@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1928 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tess183 at 123india.com Fri Nov 16 03:14:35 2001 From: tess183 at 123india.com (tess183 at 123india.com) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:14:35 -2000 Subject: Is this for you? 26876 Message-ID: <000007587d28$00006573$00001588@att.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2997 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Nov 15 12:35:36 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:35:36 -0500 Subject: FC: U.K. proposal would let government ban anonymous remailers Message-ID: Previous message: "U.K. may order firms to record Net-traffic, ban anon remaiers?" http://www.politechbot.com/p-02798.html --- From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Nov 15 13:48:20 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:48:20 -0600 Subject: Sedition Message-ID: Faustine wrote: > I bet a person could really learn a lot by spending some quality time > with Google, taking careful notes on the differences between posts you ignore, > ones you're content to dismiss with frosty condescension, what really seems to > bother the hell out of you, ones that should bother the hell out of you but you > choose to ignore, etc. etc. It's a wonder someone hasn't pulled a number on > you already. Sometimes I wonder about "Agent Farr" though. I do, too. But, clearly, I'm not an agent. A field agent would look away from the moving bright spot, take in the whole room, and see the wolf with the flashlight sitting in the corner. (That's a ancient Texas proverb, BTW, "House cats do not eat wolves. Wolves eat house cats." Never made sense to me, aside from the obvious. If anybody here knows the true meaning/origin of that, I would be interested to hear it.) ~Aimee From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 15 14:20:24 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 16:20:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal In-Reply-To: <426bade14cabb31519c263b9ca611a5b@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Anonymous wrote: > Read the fucking order at cryptome: > > Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War > Against Terrorism > > See that? "Non-Citizens", you stupid fucks! What a barrel of retards > we've got around here. The distinction is moot under our Constitution, ALL people have 'our' rights - they're not a function of the state. Speaking of 'stupid fucks'... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kmself at ix.netcom.com Thu Nov 15 17:19:41 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (kmself at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:19:41 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Subject: Off-topic cross-posting (was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Dual Moralism) has been stripped of all/certain attachments by DishnetDSL Mail server due to security reasons. DishnetDSL allows only the following attachments: 1. .doc 2. .txt 3. .xls 4. .ppt 5. .pdf 6. .zip Message contains attachments: ATT DishnetDSL From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Nov 15 17:54:43 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:54:43 -0800 Subject: Brothers in arms? Message-ID: <200111160154.fAG1shX34121@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Anthrax is almost the same organism as Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt), which is produced commercially as a pesticide. The two organisms can be grown and prepared in the same way. Because Bt is generally considered harmless, the facilities producing it probably have not been investigated as possible sources of the anthrax material. From rlmirete at terra.es Thu Nov 15 09:11:25 2001 From: rlmirete at terra.es (Ruben Leal) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:11:25 +0100 Subject: I need Help... Message-ID: Hello, Im developping a usb driver, and I need the w2k checked build version. I know that I need a Microsoft online ID to login and download the checked build version. Searching in the web, I have found an article with your password for your ID. I would like to contact with you because I need quickly the checked build. Sincerely yours, From declan at well.com Thu Nov 15 16:36:00 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 19:36:00 -0500 Subject: U.K. proposal would let government ban anonymous remailers Message-ID: <20011115193600.A10138@cluebot.com> [obviously i'm not saying it would be an _effective_ ban] ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From inc at fastmedia.net Thu Nov 15 01:14:21 2001 From: inc at fastmedia.net (cpaul) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:14:21 +1100 Subject: Al-Jazeera office in Kabul obliterated by US bombing Message-ID: <20011115201421.7f12d85b.inc@fastmedia.net> [i have no link.] The Kabul office of the Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera, the Arab satellite station that has broadcast two videotapes of Osama bin Laden denouncing America, was obliterated in US bombing early yesterday morning. One American bomb fell 20 yards from the office, heavily damaging the Qatar-based satellite television network's offices before Northern Alliance forces entered the Afghan capital, network and Pentagon officials said. From cb at fipr.org Thu Nov 15 12:29:40 2001 From: cb at fipr.org (Caspar Bowden) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:29:40 -0000 Subject: U.K. may order firms to record Net-traffic, ban anon remaiers? Message-ID: > [mailto:owner-politech at politechbot.com] On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh > Sent: 15 November 2001 05:38 .. > Subject: FC: U.K. may order firms to record Net-traffic, ban > anon remaiers? .. > If I may, permit me to pose a question to the U.K. lawyers on > this list: > Does this give the Secretary of State the power to ban > anonymous remailers operating inside the U.K.? Not as such > (Or, more precisely, limit their utility by > requiring record-keeping, identity escrow.) Yes exactly (but not a lawyer BTW). It's in interaction of ATCS Bill Clause 102 and RIP Act 200 S.2.1 (full monty appended) It doesn't require identity escrow per se, but it can instruct all or particular ISPs to retain arbitrary "communications data", as defined by RIP S.21, which includes "traffic data" as a subcategory. The definitions can be argued until they make no sense at all (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--c.htm#21), so it would be interesting to try and think of a remailer than eluded the definition of "communications data". > I'm not saying, of course, that > the secretary would choose to exercise that authority Heaven forfend > -- at least not right > away. The question is whether that authority would exist. It would, and an option to renew every two years. > Seems to me that > "communications providers" may be defined broadly enough for > that to be the case. The really bad news is that it's not just ISPs - you don't have to be providing a "telecommunications service" to the public, you just have to be providing it at all to anyone - even in a private contract or informal arrangement. If you a peer in a peer-to-peer network you can be ordered to log. It's Fink-o-matic ! New this Xmas. -- Caspar Bowden www.fipr.org Director, Foundation for Information Policy Research Tel: +44(0)20 7354 2333 "105 Interpretation of Part 11 (1) In this Part "communications data" has the same meaning as in Chapter 2 of Part 1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (c. 23); "communications provider" means a person who provides a postal service or a telecommunications service; "legal proceedings", "postal service" and "telecommunications service" each has the same meaning as in that Act..." And "102 Directions about retention of communications data (1) If, after reviewing the operation of any requirements contained in the code of practice and any agreements under section 101, it appears to the Secretary of State that it is necessary to do so, he may by order made by statutory instrument authorise the giving of directions under this section. (2) Where any order under this section is in force, the Secretary of State may give such directions as he considers appropriate about the retention of communications data (a) to communications providers generally; (b) to communications providers of a description specified in the direction; or (c) to any particular communications providers or provider. (3) An order under this section must specify the maximum period for which a communications provider may be required to retain communications data by any direction given under this section while the order is in force. (4) Before giving a direction under this section the Secretary of State shall consult (a) with the communications provider or providers to whom it will apply; or (b) except in the case of a direction confined to a particular provider, with the persons appearing to the Secretary of State to represent the providers to whom it will apply. (5) A direction under this section must be given or published in such manner as the Secretary of State considers appropriate for bringing it to the attention of the communications providers or provider to whom it applies. (6) It shall be the duty of a communications provider to comply with any direction under this section that applies to him. (7) The duty imposed by subsection (6) shall be enforceable by civil proceedings by the Secretary of State for an injunction, or for specific performance of a statutory duty under section 45 of the Court of Session Act 1988 (c. 36), or for any other appropriate relief. (8) The Secretary of State shall not make an order under this section unless a draft of it has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House." And..(yawn) RIP Act 2000 S.2 http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--b.htm#2 "telecommunications service" means any service that consists in the provision of access to, and of facilities for making use of, any telecommunication system (whether or not one provided by the person providing the service); and "telecommunication system" means any system (including the apparatus comprised in it) which exists (whether wholly or partly in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) for the purpose of facilitating the transmission of communications by any means involving the use of electrical or electro-magnetic energy. --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From faustine at lokmail.net Thu Nov 15 17:58:27 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:58:27 -0500 Subject: Cypherpunks Rating System (ws,pms,fn,ic,tl,lh) Message-ID: <200111160158.UAA03657@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1771 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn Thu Nov 15 21:38:38 2001 From: Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn (Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 21:38:38 Subject: PayPal Message-ID: <200111160553.VAA10156@ecotone.toad.com> You will find the Legal Info at the bottom ************************************************ RE: PayPal Account This is something that I wouldn't normally even look at, except that, I read an article in the Wall Street Journal on 6/16/2001 about PayPal and x.com. There have been other articles written about these companies in other well recognized journals. Because I'm a member of PayPal, I knew that this was real and would work. If you need to make a few thousand dollars REALLY FAST, then please take a moment to read this simple program I'm sharing with you. THIS IS THE FASTEST, EASIEST PROGRAM YOU WILL EVER DO!!! Complete it in one hour and you will never forget the day you first received it!!! Oh! Did I say FAST? "The speed of the internet-type fast." The Newsletter and all payments are made on the Internet by E-Mail. NEED PROOF? Here are just two testimonials from individuals who decided to invest $5.00 and a little of their time. Testimonials from: ********************************************** Tony Stevens, Vandenberg AFB, CA: Hey! I got your e-mail! YOU ROCK! I sent it to all of our frat brothers.....and while I haven't seen my $20 grand yet, I'm up to $8,285. Hook me up when you run this program again. Mary Gathers, Columbia, SC: Hey cuz! This is Mary. I only have one thing to say to you...OH MY GOD! I sent 20 e-mails out like you said and went on vacation. When I got back, my account was up to over $12,000! I owe you! GETTING STARTED. The very first thing you need to do is go to PayPal and sign up with a credit card. YOU DON"T HAVE TO HAVE YOUR ACCOUNT "VERIFIED" TO MAKE PAYMENTS FROM YOUR CARD. This makes it faster to get the account. JUST FORGET THE $5.00 SIGN UP BONUS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO VERIFY YOUR BANK ACCOUNT AND PUT $250 IN IT AND OPEN A MONEY MARKET ACCOUNT! Here's the link: https://www.paypal.com/refer/pal=kcorb77% 40hotmail.com BE SURE TO SIGN UP FOR A PREMIER ACCOUNT! OR YOU'LL BE LIMITED TO $100 DOLLARS ONLY!!! YOU WILL MAKE MUCH MORE THAN THIS!!! Then...... E-Mail $5.00 from your PayPal account from your credit card to the FIRST name on the list (#1) along with a little note like "Please add me to your mailing list." BE PREPARED TO GET EXCITED.... YOU WON'T BE DISAPPOINTED!!! Read the following and you will agree this is a very exciting opportunity. ARE YOU IN NEED OF MONEY RIGHT NOW? HOW DOES $20,000 IN TWO WEEKS SOUND? Don't laugh! Try this for a change while you wait for the others to start working. One hour of work to get started and no mailing lists! This service is 100% legal (refer to US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18,Section 1302 and 1341, or Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of Federal Regulations,Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or service must be exchanged for money received). Here's How It Works. Unlike many other programs, this THREE LEVEL PROGRAM is more realistic and much, much faster. Because it is so easy, the response rate for this program is VERY HIGH VERY FAST -- Internet E-Mail FAST -- and you will see results in two weeks or less! JUST IN TIME FOR NEXT MONTHS BILLS! You only mail out 20 copies (not 200 or more as in other programs). You should also send them to people who send their programs, because they know these programs work and they are already believers in the system! Besides, this program is MUCH, MUCH FASTER and has a HIGHER RESPONSE RATE! Even if you are already in a program, stay with it, but do yourself a favor and DO THIS ONE as well. START RIGHT NOW! It's simple and takes ONLY $5.00 FROM YOUR CREDIT CARD! It will pay off long before others letters even begin to trickle in! Just give ONE $5.00 gift to the person in the number 1 spot for him to have your name added to the advertisement list. So anyone's MAXIMUM INVESTMENT IS $5.00. Follow the simple instructions and in two weeks you will have $20,000 in your bank account! Because of the LOW INVESTMENT, SPEED, and HIGH PROFIT POTENTIAL, this program has a VERY HIGH RESPONSE RATE! FROM just ONE $5.00 bill . Follow These Simple Instructions: E-Mail the $5.00 from your Paypal account to the FIRST name on the list (#1)along with a note saying "add me to your mailing list". Only the first person on the list gets your name and five dollar gift. Edit only the list, removing the FIRST (#1) NAME FROM THE LIST. Move the other two names UP and ADD YOUR NAME to the list in the THIRD (#3) position. Don't try to add your name in the first place in order to earn money fast! If you do that, you will ONLY reach people you sent e-mail to and then your name will be immediately removed from the first place and you can't reach more people! But if you add your name on the 3rd place, there will be tons of people receiving E-Mails with your name first later!!! NOTE: Do not forget to replace the PayPal referring URL in the body of the letter with your own PayPal referring URL. Send out 20 copies of this letter. ALSO NOTE: By sending this letter and the payment via E-MAIL, the response time is much faster...ELECTRONIC TRANSFER INTERNET FAST! CONSIDER THIS, MILLIONS of people surf the Internet everyday, all day, all over the world! Here are the 3 people to start with. Sign up and send $5.00 to the first person!!! ************************************* 1. woot1 at onewest.net 2. klr1 at freeze.com 3. kcorb77 at hotmail.com ************************************* Fifty thousand new people get on the Internet every month! An excellent source of names is the people who send you other programs and the names listed on the letter they send you. Your contact source is UNLIMITED! It boggles my mind to think of all the possibilities! Mail, or should I say E-mail, your letter and payment TODAY! It's so easy. One hour of your time, THAT'S IT! To send your newsletter by e-mail, copy this ENTIRE PAGE and paste it in the message of your E-Mail TO DO THIS: 1. Go to "edit" and "select all" 2. Go to "edit" and select "copy" 3. Start (compose) a new E-Mail message (make sure it's PLAIN TEXT so everyone can view it!) 4. Fill in your Address and Subject Box 5. Go to "edit" and "paste" (Then you can format it anyway you want!) Now you can edit the addresses with ease. Delete the top name, adding your name and address to the bottom of the list, then simply changing the numbers. Remember, YOUR NAME goes on the BOTTOM and move the other 2 names up. But DO NOT forget to send $5.00 by PayPal (along with your note) to the TOP E-MAIL address before deleting it! NOTE: Be sure to replace the PayPal referring URL in this e-mail of the letter with your own PayPal referring URL. THERE'S NOTHING MORE TO DO. When your name reaches the first position in a few days, it will be your turn to collect your MONEY! The money will be sent to you by 2,000 to 4,000 people like yourself, who are willing to invest one hour to receive $20,000 in cash! That's all! There will be a total of $20,000 in $5.00 bills in your mailbox (account)in two weeks. $20,000 for one hour's work! This is real money that you can spend on anything you wish! Just deposit it to your own bank account or spend it directly from your PayPal account!!! It's just that easy!!! I think it's WORTH IT, don't you? GO AHEAD--- TRY IT!!! EVEN IF YOU MAKE JUST 3 OR 4 THOUSAND, WOULDN'T THAT BE NICE? IF YOU TRY IT, IT WILL PAY! CAN YOU DO IT AGAIN? OF COURSE YOU CAN---this plan is structured for everyone to send only 20 letters each. However, you are certainly not limited to 20. Mail out as many as you want. Every 20 letters you send has a return of $20,000 or more. If you can E-MAIL forty, sixty, eighty, or whatever, GO FOR IT! THE MORE YOU PUT INTO IT THE MORE YOU GET OUT OF IT! Each time you run this program, just follow steps 1through 3 and everyone on your gift list benefits! Simple enough? You bet it is! Besides, there are no mailing lists to buy (and wait for), and trips to the printer or copier, and you can do it again and again with your regular groups or gift givers, or start up a new group. Be SURE and PAY the first person on the list. This is proof that you paid to get put on the list which is the service rendered to make all this legal!!! Why not? It beats working! Each time you receive an MLM offer, respond with this letter! Your name will climb to the number one position at dizzying rates. Follow the simple instructions, and above all, PLEASE PLAY FAIR. That's the key to this program's success. Your name must run the full gamut on the list to produce the end results. Sneaking your name higher up on the list WILL NOT produce the results you think, and it only cheats the other people who have worked hard and have earned the right to be there. So please, play by the rules and the $$$ will come to you! $$$ E-MAIL YOUR LETTERS OUT TODAY! Together we will prosper! GOOD LUCK $$$ You are probably skeptical of this, especially with all the different programs out there on the web, but if you don't try this you will never know. That's the way I felt. I've been watching this type of program for years and this is about as easy and fast as you can get it and it can even be free to try now with PayPal, no stamps, no envelopes, no copies to be made - just a little effort and faith!!! This program really "Kept It Short and Simple"! Let's all make some serious money $$$$$$ CLICK HERE TO BEGIN: https://www.paypal.com/refer/pal=kcorb77%40hotmail.comPlease just play by the rules, this doesn't cost anything but your time and$5.00 if everyone plays fair, everyone WINS. GOOD LUCK and THANKS !!!!! LEGAL INFO ******************************************************* This is a one time response from my Autoresponder to your ad placement on my FFA site. Thanks for your ad and come again. If this message is sent to you in error, someone has highjacked your e-mail address to advertize with us. Please be assured that this is a one time message which will not be repeated and that the list containing your address is trashed after this message. You can also reply with "REMOVE" in the Subject field to be added to my permanent exclusion list. Wishing you total success .... This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress, per Section 301, Paragraph(a)(2)(C) of S. 1618,this letter cannot be considered Spam as long as the sender includes contact information & a method of "removal". For address removal please send reply with the word "remove" in the subject line. From edmeeks at HiWAAY.net Thu Nov 15 20:06:30 2001 From: edmeeks at HiWAAY.net (Debbie Meeks) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 22:06:30 -0600 Subject: password Message-ID: <000701c16e54$1a2ab800$3ec7fea9@terry> would you have the latest working login/password to adultfriendfinder -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com Thu Nov 15 21:52:18 2001 From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 00:53:18 -0459 Subject: New Inventory! Message-ID: <200111160202640.SM01708@carlo> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10835 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com Thu Nov 15 21:52:18 2001 From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 00:53:18 -0459 Subject: New Inventory! Message-ID: <200111160202843.SM01708@carlo> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10835 bytes Desc: not available URL: From in657 at mail.com Thu Nov 15 14:23:01 2001 From: in657 at mail.com (infoMARKET) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 01:23:01 +0300 Subject: =?windows-1251?Q?=C2=E0=F8=E8_=ED=EE=E2=FB=E5_=EA=EB=E8=E5=ED=F2=FB?= Message-ID: <433620011141522231811@mail.com> Здравствуйте! В этом письме: - базы данных предприятий для контактов по электронной почте (п.1); - программа для автоматической рассылки электронной почты (п.2); - базы данных крупнейших предприятий Москвы, России, СНГ (п.3); - базы данных региональных промышленных предприятий (все регионы России и СНГ) (п.4); - отраслевые базы данных предприятий Москвы (п.5); - ваша корпоративная электронная почта (п.6). 1. Когда необходимо быстро и с минимальными затратами сообщить определенной целевой группе предприятий какую-либо информацию, нет ничего лучше, чем сделать это по электронной почте. Наши базы данных предприятий Москвы, России, СНГ предназначены специально для этих целей. Покупая их, вы приобретаете мощнейший маркетинговый механизм, позволяющий моментально привлекать новых и новых клиентов. Базы предоставляются на компакт-диске (в т.ч. по почте). Стоимость от $100 до 300. Форма оплаты любая. Заказы: infMARKET at global-mail.ru 2. Программа "GroupMail" предназначена для осуществления электронных рассылок. Стоимость ее предоставления $25. Форма оплаты любая. Программа предоставляется на компакт-диске (в т.ч. по почте) или высылается электронной почтой. Заказы и вопросы: InfMarket at global-mail.ru. Выполняем электронные рассылки по Вашему заказу. Заказы и вопросы направляйте на адрес InfMarket at global-mail.ru. 3. Имеются в продаже базы данных КРУПНЕЙШИХ ПРЕДПРИЯТИЙ: "Предприятия Москвы/России/СНГ с численностью штата более 50/500/1000 человек". Стоимости этих баз данных от $15 до $300. Форма оплаты любая. Базы предоставляется на компакт диске (в т.ч. по почте) или высылается электронной почтой. Заказы и вопросы: InfMarket at global-mail.ru. 4. Базы данных региональных промышленных предприятий (все регионы России и СНГ). InfMARKET at global-mail.ru. 5. Имеются в продаже следующие отраслевые базы данных предприятий Москвы: - Представительства зарубежных компаний, посольства; - Финансовые организации; - Недвижимость и строительство; - Мебель и деревообработка; - Внешность, красота, отдых; - Продукты питания; - Одежда и обувь; - Авто-мото; - Промышленность; - Туризм и отдых; - Медицина и Фармация; - Реклама; - СМИ. InfMarket at global-mail.ru 6. Ваша корпоративная электронная почта. Если у Вас еще нет собственного веб-сайта, при минимальных затратах (меньше $100 в год!) вы можете всего за 5 минут: - зарегистрировать домен (адрес вашей компании в Интернете) вида www.ВАША_ФИРМА.ru. Или: www.ВАША_ФИРМА.com; - получить неограниченное (!) количество электронных ящиков вида имя@ВАША_ФИРМА.ru. Вы сможете дать личный электронный ящик каждому вашему сотруднику или отделу. Вышеописанное можно сделать с нашей помощью в любой стране, любом городе и при любом способе оплаты. Если же вы решили, что сайт вам уже необходим, обращайтесь к нам. Имея большой опыт в создании веб-сайтов, мы можем изготовить ваш веб-ресурс любого уровня сложности. По любым вопросам пишите на InfMarket at global-mail.ru. Компания InfoMarket From juicy at melontraffickers.com Fri Nov 16 03:05:14 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 03:05:14 -0800 Subject: [free-sklyarov] OT: [postmaster@eth.net: Mail Delivery Status Notification] Message-ID: <9ff4056d2e70658eaef160081df38f20@melontraffickers.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:46:02 -0800 From: Karsten M. Self To: Free Sklyarov mailing list Subject: [free-sklyarov] OT: [postmaster at eth.net: Mail Delivery Status Notification] --DocE+STaALJfprDB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would someone please inform the recipient listed in the bounce message below, and his/her postmaster that GPG signatures in RFC 2015 MIME encoded form are not hazardous attachements? --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html --DocE+STaALJfprDB Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline >From karsten Thu Nov 15 17:44:07 2001 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] ident=karsten) by navel with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 164Y34-0005rI-00 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:44:06 -0800 Received: from popd.ix.netcom.com [207.217.120.161] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.9.3) for karsten at localhost (single-drop); Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:44:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail03.eth.net ([202.9.178.25]) by motown (Earthlink/Netcom Mail Service) with ESMTP id tv8rm4.4i0.37tiu50 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:41:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by mail03.eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 07:12:41 +0530 From: Postmaster To: kmself at ix.netcom.com Subject: Mail Delivery Status Notification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_1" Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Nov 2001 01:42:41.0109 (UTC) FILETIME=[FAB2A050:01C16E3F] Date: 16 Nov 2001 07:12:41 +0530 X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 ------_=_NextPart_1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_2" ------_=_NextPart_2 Content-Type: text/plain; DishnetDSL SENDER NOTIFICATION The following message: From santanubanerjee at rediffmail.com Thu Nov 15 21:49:23 2001 From: santanubanerjee at rediffmail.com (santanu -------- banerjee) Date: 16 Nov 2001 05:49:23 -0000 Subject: request for papers Message-ID: <20011116054923.15039.qmail@mailweb32.rediffmail.com> Dear Sir, This is in reference to my search for relevant Research papers in "Multi sensor Image Fusion: Concealed weapon Detection". I've gone through your website & have figured that your publication Papers will be really helpful in due course of my research. It will be very kind of you if you please send me a copy of the relevant Papers through Email or by Post, whichever suits you. I'll be highly obliged if you be kind enough to send me the relevant papers at your earlist. These are really essential for my research purposes. Thanking in anticipation, Yours faithfully, Santanu Banerjee. Santanu Banerjee. Junior Research Fellow, Central Forensic Science Laboratory, Dakshin Marg, Plot No.2, Sector 36-A, Chandigarh 160 036, INDIA. Email : santanubanerjee at rediffmail.com. From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 16 06:49:47 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 08:49:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [free-sklyarov] OT: [postmaster@eth.net: Mail Delivery Status Notification] In-Reply-To: <9ff4056d2e70658eaef160081df38f20@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, A. Melon wrote: > Would someone please inform the recipient listed in the bounce message > below, and his/her postmaster that GPG signatures in RFC 2015 MIME > encoded form are not hazardous attachements? > DishnetDSL SENDER NOTIFICATION > has been stripped of all/certain attachments by DishnetDSL Mail server due > to security reasons. > > DishnetDSL allows only the following attachments: > > 1. .doc ^^^^ Maybe safe, depending on what produced it, and who recieves it. > 2. .txt > 3. .xls ^^^^ Oh yeah, *thats* secure! > 4. .ppt > 5. .pdf ^^^^ Usually OK, but... > 6. .zip > > Message contains attachments: ATT > > > DishnetDSL ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Obviously clueless... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 16 07:13:46 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:13:46 -0600 Subject: Brothers in arms? References: <200111160154.fAG1shX34121@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3BF52D27.7A1A6571@cybershamanix.com> I heard something on NPR awhile back about the ability of BT equipment being capable of being used for anthrax, and the quite distinct possibility that some of it had been diverted for same. I also heard last night on NPR a quite lengthy piece on the whole "rightwing militants/anthrax" bit. keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > Anthrax is almost the same organism as Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt), which is produced commercially as a pesticide. The two organisms can be grown and prepared in the same way. > > Because Bt is generally considered harmless, the facilities producing it probably have not been investigated as possible sources of the anthrax material. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Nov 16 09:28:34 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:28:34 -0800 Subject: Brothers in arms? Message-ID: <200111161728.fAGHSYF70490@mailserver1.hushmail.com> On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:13:46 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: > I heard something on NPR awhile back about the ability of BT equipment being capable of being used for anthrax, and the quite distinct possibility that some of it had been >diverted for same. > I also heard last night on NPR a quite lengthy piece on the whole "rightwing militants/anthrax" bit. Could you synopsize the discussion? Any online links? From cmprn105045 at e.gotmarketing.com Fri Nov 16 06:59:20 2001 From: cmprn105045 at e.gotmarketing.com (Robert Ferchat - I.Magin.ation Inc.) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:59:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Doing What It Takes Newsletter Message-ID: <5594698.1005922760546.JavaMail.trend@abwc380696> Doing What it Takes By Bob Ferchat and Tony Carlson Monday morning in the bowels of the local football shrine. Fifty-eight-plus hulking millionaires sit licking their collective wounds, watching a flickering image at the front of the room while one man with a laser pointer picks apart their performance of the previous day. �You missed that block, Johnson. Have you never seen a stunt before? And Bellikowski, look here . . . what were you thinking?� It�s a scene played out in 31 NFL cities after every game, win or lose. The coaching staff have spent much of the previous 12 hours poring over the film record of every player�s on-field performance. And now it�s time for the reckoning. The objective is not punitive, although clearly some careers live and die in the unforgiving light of the video-camera. Rather, it is improvement. Constant, unrelenting improvement, in execution and in knowledge of the competition�s ability. The goal? Positive results next Sunday. Football teams are not the only ones to dissect their efforts. Baseball�s gazillionaires, too, are infamous for finding minute hitches in their swings or faulty pitch release points after they study tape. Now that business executives are being showered with enormous compensation packages � in the same stratosphere as star athletes � shouldn�t we expect similar post mortem examinations of their performance as a matter of course? After all, what�s at stake is a bit more than a friendly wager or bragging rights. It could be people�s pension nest eggs . . . or livelihoods. Does the public allow sports figures to retreat or make excuses for losing or to utter �no comment�? Can an athlete who has lost or performed below his personal best escape the camera to explain not just what happened but why and what he or she is planning to avoid a recurrence? Not a chance. Should business executives expect any less than to be required to analyze their failures admit errors and provide plans to avoid repetition? Can�t see why they should. Is the baseball or football game more important? Are business people untouchable, their egos too fragile, to allow their actions to be examined under a microscope? Are they above asking coaches and other experts to give them an objective view on what can be done to improve the odds of success? It takes some kind of chutzpah to suggest a negative answer to any of those questions. If there were a rigorous process of examining the impact of decisions after the fact, the CEO would clearly be better equipped to explain the results to outside critics rather than relying on his memory or oversimplified truisms. Engineers constantly examine designs that work and endure the rigors of use. Lawyers use precedent as their basis of action. Neither profession would dream of leaning on long-ago learning and current intuition as the key sources for decision-making. Who would choose a doctor who does not consult on the diagnosis, or who does not keep up to date on developments? Peer reviews are standard procedure in most professions. Why not for business cases? Imagine this: The CEO of XYZ Ltd. calls a meeting of his senior executives shortly after they announce a decision to close a plant, abandon a business segment or lay off thousands of employees. Taking the floor at the front of the boardroom, the CEO opens the discussion by saying: �Ladies and gentlemen, we have just announced a decision that deals a body blow to our shareholders and our fellow employees. What went wrong? When did it go wrong? How could we have been more sensitive, read the signs earlier? The meeting will be over when we get the answers. Any questions?� Think that happens? Not so�s you�d notice. But what if the CEO then said this: �I have asked Joe and Susan from Garfinkel and Hudson to help us with this examination.� Athletes of all kinds are constantly seeking outside opinions from proven experts, looking for often minute adjustments that will enable them to improve. These coaches and experts may not be able to perform at the level of the people they advise, but they do provide invaluable input, the dispassionate outside perspective, the softer focus on events that may be happening at the periphery of the company�s vision. Or consider this. Suppose, before opening up the floor for discussion, our CEO said one more thing: �And Joe and Susan have tapes.� Imagine the silence. Imagine the message that would send: we expect people who are compensated at an elite level to perform at that level . . . or do their damnedest to get there. And you can�t hide. Video recording is not as cheap as a paper copying machine, but in the big picture it�s close enough. Why do we not use it more in business to record the decision process for future reference? And do it both for the hits and the misses. When sports teams review performance on tape, they do not cut players for single mistakes or imperfect executions, although clearly they will for failure to learn, for not trying to improve or for not accepting coaching. Is that a bad thing? Surely that process can cut through the clutter of organizational politics in favor of real meritocracy. Now, obviously, putting video cameras in board and meeting rooms would be an enormous shock to most organizations. But clearly, as misjudgments and miscalculations continue to manifest themselves in job losses, profit squeezes and share price erosion, executives and directors need better tools to examine their decision making. Maybe not video, but then again, why not? Business people, like athletes, cannot expect to hit a home run on every play, but they are fully capable of studying performance -- using, accumulating statistics and profiting from improved execution. This analysis would give business schools better empirical tools, whether they use the case method or not. And ultimately, it would improve business performance which not only helps executives and boards, but also translates into better times for customers and employees. In the end, whether the game is business or sports, the devil is in the details. Improving a golf swing, a slider or a balance sheet is a detailed and subtle business. All need critical analysis, perhaps even slow-motion, frame-by-frame examination and a comprehensive understanding of the mechanics. It all begins with the recognition that performance excellence is the imperative. And getting there requires help. Click here: mailto:cmprn105045 at e.gotmarketing.com?subject=unsubscribe!cypherpunks at toad.com!11046213 to unsubscribe from our mailing list. Or reply to this message with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 18680 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at paranoici.org Fri Nov 16 01:12:04 2001 From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:12:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal Message-ID: <41729503b76eb7a670ece156add2c042@paranoici.org> >See that? "Non-Citizens", you stupid fucks! What a barrel of retards >we've got around here. Excellent, agent Gordon. Unconstitutional delineation between "citizens" and "non-citizens" when rights granted by amendments are concerned is just the first step. Remember jews. The first thing that happened to them was to lose several rights. Next, the fuhrer's Kabinet will strip citizenship protection from "terrorists*". This will be the byline: "too many terrorists aquired citizenship through perjury". Next, natural citizens will have to prove their allegiance in order to retain citizenship. This is, stupid fuck, how things progressed in past. And we are talking here about inferior brainwashing machine (no TV) and relatively educated population in 1930s Germany. It took them 10 years what bushmen will do here in one short year. For they will not waste their time. I'll bet that even Kabinet members are still in disbelief how easy it goes. Maybe they will decide to collapse transamerica in SF just for fun ... * anyone who doesn't wave flag while rectally penetrated by state officials From georgemw at speakeasy.net Fri Nov 16 10:42:26 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:42:26 -0800 Subject: Monkeywrenching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BF4ED92.3817.4FCCB5@localhost> On 16 Nov 2001, at 12:00, Aimee Farr wrote: > > "A good example of monkeywrenching can be found at the article posted > > earlier, http://www.keepandbeararms.com/angel/articles/consterrorist.htm. > > This shows an apparently legitimate flyer from the "Phoenix FBI Joint > > Terrorism Task Force" telling people whom they should watch out for. It > > includes people who "make numerous references to the US constitution", > > people who are "'defenders' of the US constitution against federal > > government and the UN", people who attempt to "police the police" and so > on." > > Think the criminal defense bar is concerned? > > ~Aimee > > Probably not. The act of terrorism isn't "quoting the Constitution", it's "quoting the Constitution without a license". George From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Nov 16 03:22:22 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:22:22 +0000 Subject: Brothers in arms? (fwd) References: Message-ID: <3BF4F6EE.8ABCE73C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate forwarded mail from keyser-soze at hushmail.com: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: CDR: Brothers in arms? > > Anthrax is almost the same organism as Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt), which is produced commercially as a pesticide. The two organisms can be grown and prepared in the same way. > > Because Bt is generally considered harmless, the facilities producing it probably have not been investigated as possible sources of the anthrax material. Bacterial taxonomy is in a state of flux at the moment (that's an understatement - trust me on this!). Lots of people don't think of /Bacillus/ /anthracis/ as a separate species at all - some taxonomists include it as a part of /B./ /cereus/ which is a very, very, common soil bacterium. Bacteria have a sort of modular genome (*), they can sometimes snap-fit bits of code in to do a set of related functions. So there is, for example, a module, forms of which exist in many not-very-closely related bacteria & which genetic engineers have consistently and spectacularly failed to add to anything else. There are a great many modules which move from species to species quite freely. These "modules" are sometimes, but not always, carried in plasmids which are bits of DNA separate from the chromosome(s). (It is possible that some viruses may, in effect, be descended from modules that "escaped") /Bacillus/ /anthracis/ may, in effect, be just one set of closely related strains of a very polymorphic population that happen to have a module and an module. It is possible that those "modules" could be passed to other species of bacteria, and certain tyhat they can be removed from /Bacillus/ /anthracis/, which is why you can get a non-virulent live form which can be used as a vaccine. (And why for some diseases a vaccine can be made from the blood of a survivor). If you have access to an academic library (or http://www.sciencedirect.com) you could look at papers like: Ruiting Lan and Peter R. Reeves (2001) "When does a clone deserve a name? A perspective on bacterial species based on population genetics" (Trends in Microbiology, vol. 9 pp. 419-424, Sept 2001) Abstract: "Molecular population-genetic analysis has revealed that for several human diseases, including tuberculosis, plague and shigellosis, the generally accepted taxonomic status of the organisms involved does not fit the usually accepted genus or species criteria. This raises the question of what species concept to apply to bacteria. We suggest that the species definition in bacteria should be based on analysis of sequence variation in housekeeping genes, and also that the 'clone' be given official status in bacterial nomenclature. This will allow demotion of the species or genus status of several traditionally recognized human pathogens, but retention of current names of anomalous species and genera as clone names." Ken Brown (*) AFAIK I thought up that phrase and it is mine. But a simple Google search shows dozens of other people thought of it too. Curses! Foiled Again! And isn't the Science Citation Index wonderful? From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Nov 16 03:29:01 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:29:01 +0000 Subject: [free-sklyarov] OT: [postmaster@eth.net: Mail Delivery Status Notification] References: <9ff4056d2e70658eaef160081df38f20@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <3BF4F87D.CED8DE10@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "A. Melon" wrote: [...] > Would someone please inform the recipient listed in the bounce message > below, and his/her postmaster that GPG signatures in RFC 2015 MIME > encoded form are not hazardous attachements? And posted a failure message: > has been stripped of all/certain attachments by DishnetDSL Mail server due > to security reasons. > > DishnetDSL allows only the following attachments: > > 1. .doc > 2. .txt > 3. .xls > 4. .ppt > 5. .pdf > 6. .zip > > Message contains attachments: ATT from wonderful Dishnet who don't seem to realise that .doc, .ppt and .xls, being in effect executable code, *are* hazardous attachments. Of course, I strongly support the removal of *all* attachments and the limitation of all email to ASCII text, or just possibly EBCDC between consenting mainframes in private. Eschew all attachments. You know it makes sense. Ken From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Nov 16 10:00:50 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:00:50 -0600 Subject: Monkeywrenching Message-ID: > "A good example of monkeywrenching can be found at the article posted > earlier, http://www.keepandbeararms.com/angel/articles/consterrorist.htm. > This shows an apparently legitimate flyer from the "Phoenix FBI Joint > Terrorism Task Force" telling people whom they should watch out for. It > includes people who "make numerous references to the US constitution", > people who are "'defenders' of the US constitution against federal > government and the UN", people who attempt to "police the police" and so on." Think the criminal defense bar is concerned? ~Aimee From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 16 10:01:11 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:01:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: Declan;Comped scribbler and bottom feeder? In-Reply-To: <20011116120930.A21683@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Can I watch? On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:09:30 -0500 > From: Declan McCullagh > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > To: mattd > Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: CDR: Re: Declan;Comped scribbler and bottom feeder? > > Yes, you found me out. I moderated a panel this week at the Cato > Institute, a (gasp!) libertarian-leaning think tank. > > I suppose I shall go slit my wrists now. > > -Declan > > > On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:26:24AM +1100, mattd wrote: > > "quasi-academic think-tank which acts as a mouthpiece for the globalism, > > corporatism, and neoliberalism of its corporate and conservative funders." > > Not my description,(Im not as complimentary)of the cato institute.Besides > > hosting adress harvesting 'free gifts'adware on one his sites our resident > > reporter is a speaker at the above mentioned institute.Beats knitting > > besides the guillotine,I guess.Still if hes not to busy maybe he could help > > us with the idea that free market theory is a hostile weapon against > > development of emerging nations? > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From info at giganetstore.com Fri Nov 16 04:01:40 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:01:40 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Proteja-se_das_radia=E7=F5es_do_seu_telem=F3vel?= Message-ID: <04afd40011210b1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> As Dicas do Rudolfo Este Natal fale com os seus sem soluços e em segurança, e para que isso aconteça o Rudolfo aconselha... Antena Interna + Protector de Radiações Um dos produtos mais vendidos nos EUA, chegou agora a Portugal. Não perca a oportunidade de adquirir esta magnifica antena interna mais o protector de radiações, que são exclusivamente representados em Portugal pela giganetstore.com . Veja mais em pormenor o que este produto pode fazer por si e pelos seus. ----- Antena Interna É como ter uma antena de 1 m no seu telemóvel! · Funciona em qualquer telemóvel · Reduz a estática · Tem rede em elevadores, túneis, edifícios e muito mais... mais informação» » ----- Protector de Radiações O "Protector de Radiações" protege o tecido dos canais auditivos das ondas electromagnéticas, eliminando potenciais danos. · Funciona em qualquer telefone · Não afecta a qualidade de recepção · Pode ser usado em telefones sem fios mais informação» » ----- e tudo isto só por 6.900$00 (34,42 €) Na próxima semana a Antena Interna + Protector de Radiações encontrar-se-á também à venda em: Av. Defensores de Chaves nº 73 - B em Lisboa Na cadeia de Lojas Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6451 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Fri Nov 16 09:09:30 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:09:30 -0500 Subject: Declan;Comped scribbler and bottom feeder? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011117001202.00a18c10@pop.useoz.com>; from mattd@useoz.com on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:26:24AM +1100 References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011117001202.00a18c10@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: <20011116120930.A21683@cluebot.com> Yes, you found me out. I moderated a panel this week at the Cato Institute, a (gasp!) libertarian-leaning think tank. I suppose I shall go slit my wrists now. -Declan On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:26:24AM +1100, mattd wrote: > "quasi-academic think-tank which acts as a mouthpiece for the globalism, > corporatism, and neoliberalism of its corporate and conservative funders." > Not my description,(Im not as complimentary)of the cato institute.Besides > hosting adress harvesting 'free gifts'adware on one his sites our resident > reporter is a speaker at the above mentioned institute.Beats knitting > besides the guillotine,I guess.Still if hes not to busy maybe he could help > us with the idea that free market theory is a hostile weapon against > development of emerging nations? From mattd at useoz.com Thu Nov 15 18:27:08 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:27:08 +1100 Subject: FC: U.K. proposal would let government ban anonymous remailers Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011116131637.00a3fb70@pop.useoz.com> Sorry to report Indymedias UK page is now censoring articles calling for the introduction of accountability technology to deal with the stasi like situation there.Fear and loathing on the internet when the US,UK and AU join countries like... Azerbaijan, Belarus, Burma, China, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Libya, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Sierra Leone, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Vietnam as countries that totally or mostly control Internet access. Also the victorian police seem to be still trying to entrap me with various posts calling for illegal acts posted in my name. I only mention that in case something odd crops up here purporting to be from me advocating lawlessness. PS.As the jeff gordon pool seems sadly inadequate to these dark times,I would like to take my money and throw it on a burning bush. From kmself at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 16 13:40:52 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:40:52 -0800 Subject: [free-sklyarov] OT: [postmaster@eth.net: Mail Delivery Status Notification] In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 08:49:47AM -0600 References: <9ff4056d2e70658eaef160081df38f20@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <20011116134052.A22587@navel.introspect> on Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 08:49:47AM -0600, measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) wrote: > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, A. Melon wrote: > > > Would someone please inform the recipient listed in the bounce message > > below, and his/her postmaster that GPG signatures in RFC 2015 MIME > > encoded form are not hazardous attachements? Yeah, that's me. > > > > DishnetDSL SENDER NOTIFICATION > > > > > has been stripped of all/certain attachments by DishnetDSL Mail server due > > to security reasons. > > > > DishnetDSL allows only the following attachments: > > > > 1. .doc > ^^^^ Maybe safe, depending on what produced it, and who recieves it. > > 2. .txt > > 3. .xls > ^^^^ Oh yeah, *thats* secure! > > > 4. .ppt > > 5. .pdf > ^^^^ Usually OK, but... There are some PDF exploits I've heard of, not sure if they're theoretical or not. Postscript itself is not immune, as it's an executable format itself. There's discussion I've heard of Postscript exploits which would be resident in printer networks. Powerpoint's also got its problems. ZIP is a panapoly which encompasses a whole slew of formats. And even good old .TXT is not secure if my understanding of MSFT filehandling is right. Associate .TXT with MS Word, add a .TXT extension to a MS Word file with a macro virus, and you're back to the root problem. A similar issue exists with RTF files if they're opened by MS Word by default -- the extension determines the application, but not the method(s) used for opening the file. I'm of the opinion that MIME has its uses. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Fri Nov 16 14:22:28 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:22:28 -0800 Subject: Who Authorized This? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011116142059.04e58c40@pop3.lvcm.com> Who Authorized This? Andrew Sullivan, Forbes ASAP, 12.03.01 Why does the United States elicit such extreme hatred in some parts of the world? What America is based on is not the achievement of some goal, the capture of some trophy, or the triumph of success. It's about the process of seeking something. It's about incompletion, dissatisfaction, striving, imperfection. In the late 18th century, this was a statement in itself. In the Europe of the preceding centuries, armies had gone to war, human beings had been burned at stakes, monarchs had been dethroned, and countries torn apart because imperfection wasn't enough. From the Inquisition to the Reformation, religious fanatics had demanded that the state enforce holiness, truth, and virtue. Those who resisted were exterminated. Moreover, the power and status of rulers derived from their own perfection. Kings and queens commanded artists to portray them as demi-gods. Dissenters were not merely troublemakers; they were direct threats to the perfect order of the modern state. This was a political order in which everything had to be perfectly arranged, even down to the internal thoughts of individual consciences. http://www.forbes.com/asap/2001/1203/014.html From joshuahorner at mx.lax-15.horny18.net Fri Nov 16 14:37:26 2001 From: joshuahorner at mx.lax-15.horny18.net (Joshua Horner) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:37:26 -0800 Subject: Overdue Acct: #mctpsl Message-ID: <200111162237.fAGMbQu21837@mx.lax-15.horny18.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Fri Nov 16 15:07:52 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:07:52 -0800 Subject: Life, Liberty, and Whoop-de-do! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011116150703.04e7be40@pop3.lvcm.com> Life, Liberty, and Whoop-de-do! P.J. O'Rourke, Forbes ASAP, 12.03.01 In which our man in mirth declares a new kind of independence Much of the world is confused and infuriated by America. And I contend that happiness is the source of the confusion and fury. Other countries are established upon pride, power, nationality, blood, and religion. Not America. Pursuit of happiness is what we're all about. It's front and center in our charter, an inalienable right; the Declaration of Independence says so. No talk of happiness appears in England's Magna Carta. The French Revolution's Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen fails to address the subject. Article 24 of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights does state, "Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including... periodic holidays with pay." But this is not the same as the pursuit of happiness--as anyone who has wasted a vacation dragging whiny children on a tour of United Nations headquarters knows. http://www.forbes.com/asap/2001/1203/018.html From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 16 13:47:24 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:47:24 -0600 Subject: Brothers in arms? References: <200111161728.fAGHSYF70490@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3BF5893D.7F620872@cybershamanix.com> I don't think I heard much of anything that hasn't been already discussed here. They ended it with someone talking about this whole idea (that the anthrax was being spread by domestic groups, not al-quaida) being simply the result of the compartmentalization and bureaucratic nature of the FBI -- the departments whose bailiwick is investigating foreign groups will just naturally push the idea that it's done by them, and likewise, the FBI departments who investigate domestic groups will try to push their trip. They all want the glory and media attention, eh? And the whole thing ended up with a good bit of talk about how actually they have no clues or leads whatsoever in any direction or towards any group or person. keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:13:46 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > I heard something on NPR awhile back about the ability of BT equipment being capable of being used for anthrax, and the quite distinct possibility that some of it had been > >diverted for same. > > I also heard last night on NPR a quite lengthy piece on the whole "rightwing militants/anthrax" bit. > > Could you synopsize the discussion? Any online links? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com From declan at well.com Fri Nov 16 13:25:14 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:25:14 -0500 Subject: Monkeywrenching In-Reply-To: ; from aimee.farr@pobox.com on Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:00:50PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20011116162513.B26012@cluebot.com> I called the FBI yesterday; this is a real flyer. I'll send something Politechwards later on today about it. -Declan On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:00:50PM -0600, Aimee Farr wrote: > > "A good example of monkeywrenching can be found at the article posted > > earlier, http://www.keepandbeararms.com/angel/articles/consterrorist.htm. > > This shows an apparently legitimate flyer from the "Phoenix FBI Joint > > Terrorism Task Force" telling people whom they should watch out for. It > > includes people who "make numerous references to the US constitution", > > people who are "'defenders' of the US constitution against federal > > government and the UN", people who attempt to "police the police" and so > on." > > Think the criminal defense bar is concerned? > > ~Aimee From declan at well.com Fri Nov 16 13:25:57 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:25:57 -0500 Subject: Declan;Comped scribbler and bottom feeder? In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:01:11PM -0600 References: <20011116120930.A21683@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20011116162557.C26012@cluebot.com> I suppose that charging admission would be the free-market approach to suicide. Not sure what I'd do with the money after death, tho. -Declan On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:01:11PM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > Can I watch? > > > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:09:30 -0500 > > From: Declan McCullagh > > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > > To: mattd > > Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com > > Subject: CDR: Re: Declan;Comped scribbler and bottom feeder? > > > > Yes, you found me out. I moderated a panel this week at the Cato > > Institute, a (gasp!) libertarian-leaning think tank. > > > > I suppose I shall go slit my wrists now. From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 16 14:28:58 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:28:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: Declan;Comped scribbler and bottom feeder? In-Reply-To: <20011116162557.C26012@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Perhaps you have pets who could use the money? I would be happy to pay in Meow Mix :-) On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:25:57 -0500 > From: Declan McCullagh > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > To: measl at mfn.org > Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: CDR: Re: Declan;Comped scribbler and bottom feeder? > > I suppose that charging admission would be the free-market approach to > suicide. Not sure what I'd do with the money after death, tho. > > -Declan > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:01:11PM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > Can I watch? > > > > > > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:09:30 -0500 > > > From: Declan McCullagh > > > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > > > To: mattd > > > Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com > > > Subject: CDR: Re: Declan;Comped scribbler and bottom feeder? > > > > > > Yes, you found me out. I moderated a panel this week at the Cato > > > Institute, a (gasp!) libertarian-leaning think tank. > > > > > > I suppose I shall go slit my wrists now. > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cypherpunks at web-cyat.com Fri Nov 16 16:36:19 2001 From: cypherpunks at web-cyat.com (cypherpunks at web-cyat.com) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:36:19 Subject: Lose 30 Pounds In 30 Days, Guaranteed! Time:4:36:19 PM Message-ID: <04d8625420011b1WEBDATA9@webdata9> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5376 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Nov 16 14:50:28 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:50:28 -0600 Subject: Monkeywrenching In-Reply-To: <20011116162513.B26012@cluebot.com> Message-ID: [up-posted conversation] You are working too hard today. I meant it in the sense that it sounds like they are talking about criminal defense lawyers. (i.e., "make numerous references to the US Constitution," "defenders," ....etc-etc.) :P ~Aimee > I called the FBI yesterday; this is a real flyer. I'll send something > Politechwards later on today about it. > > -Declan > > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:00:50PM -0600, Aimee Farr wrote: > > > "A good example of monkeywrenching can be found at the article posted > > > earlier, > http://www.keepandbeararms.com/angel/articles/consterrorist.htm. > > > This shows an apparently legitimate flyer from the "Phoenix FBI Joint > > > Terrorism Task Force" telling people whom they should watch > out for. It > > > includes people who "make numerous references to the US constitution", > > > people who are "'defenders' of the US constitution against federal > > > government and the UN", people who attempt to "police the > police" and so > > on." > > > > Think the criminal defense bar is concerned? > > > > ~Aimee From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 16 15:15:03 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:15:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: FW: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description (fwd) Message-ID: I believe some of you will have an interest in this. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:08:48 +0000 From: axel ellrodt Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners. To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU Subject: Re: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description http://www.sfmu.org/documents/biotox/jernigan.pdf http://www.sfmu.org/documents/biotox/jernigan.pdf 26 pages about the first ten USA cases From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com Fri Nov 16 17:44:40 2001 From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:44:40 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" Message-ID: From faustine at lokmail.net Fri Nov 16 15:42:47 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 18:42:47 -0500 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) Message-ID: <200111162342.SAA20082@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 3177 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 16 19:15:43 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:15:43 -0800 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) In-Reply-To: <200111162342.SAA20082@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <62D4BB4A-DB09-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 03:42 PM, Faustine wrote: > > Good question. I guess it's just that I love to argue, and you could > hardly > ask for a better assortment of intelligent and colorful characters to > mix it up > with. I enjoy the back-and-forth; putting out documents people here > might find > useful and interesting--and most importantly, being able to give my > unvarnished > opinion without, well, worrying too much about being rigorous and > objective. > > For instance, if anyone wants to tell someone here to go fuck > themselves, > they just come right out and tell them to go fuck themselves. How > refreshing, > positively theraputic! Expressing a little heartfelt hostility isn't > always a > bad thing...LOL The list has only 5% of the content it had in its glory years, 1992-95. And perhaps only 10% of its content in its declining years, 1996-98. It's now at about half the level of its senile years, 1999-2000. This past year has been the worst. There are many reasons for this decline, discussed as early as 1994. Any newbies who think this list is now interesting or exciting has my sympathy. --Tim May "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com Fri Nov 16 19:33:04 2001 From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:33:04 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) Message-ID: Faustine writes: >Tim wrote: > > >Besides the above points, a "rigorous and objective analysis" is work > >for bean counters...and is only interesting to other bean counters. > >So von Neumann, Kahn, Schelling and Nash are boring, huh. >I'd rather follow their examples than spend year after year chitchatting >on Usenet. Such an intelligent and creative man, what a waste. Then what the hell are you doing here, chitchatting on the list many critics have characterized as Tim's private cesspool? > > Faustine has gradstudentitus. She or he will likely get his >or her >Masters or maybe even Ph.D. and will then vanish into the bowels > >of the Office of Implementational Policy Assessment, commuting to work > >each morning on the Metro, hoping to advance to GS-13 level before age > >40, and generally living a life of quiet desperation. But her or his > >analysis papers will be suitably dry and rigorous...and ignorable. > > >For someone who claims not to know whether I'm a woman or not, your >overactive imagination certainly got busy on the details. Unlike you, I'm >not so easily trolled into showing my hand. So if whipping up some dreary >banalities for me makes you feel better, go right ahead. Though you're >so far off, it really is amusing. Yes, Tim. Come on. Faustine will be doing Important Rigorous and Objective Policy Analysis. Her work will have Real Impact. Members of Congress and the Administration will invite her to come give them briefings (at least those with sufficient clearance). Large corporations will be wetting themselves in their anxiety to have her join their Board of Directors. She just doesn't want to "show her hand" yet. You know, all those paparazzi can be so annoying. And it's hard to get important Policy Analysis done when you're being pestered by all those lightweights in Congress. Besides: Gosh! Just think: we'll be able to say that we knew her when. - GH _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com Fri Nov 16 19:39:44 2001 From: bounce-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocks) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:39:44 -0800 Subject: BioSecure to Offer Personal Bio-Protection Products Message-ID: [Stockupticks.com] [Image] [Image] Welcome to Stockupticks.com Newsletter Issue #15 - November 16, 2001 [Image] [Image] [Image][Image] e-Blast [Image] Editor's Note [Image] Here at StockUpTicks we try to be very selective regarding the companies that we expose to our membership. Since we're not a "pump", "tout", or "hype" service and don't render opinion about our featured companies, we'll never pressure you to buy or sell these stocks. However, we are very proud of the performance of our featured companies. Before you read about BioSecure, today's featured company, take a look at how each of the companies we've featured over the last couple of months have performed. All percentages below are based on today's close (Nov. 16, 2001) Price Featured Profile Day Today's % Company Date Before Closing Increase Profile Price SAFH October .76 .86 + 13% 26, 2001 GPRX November .92 1.15 + 25% 4, 2001 GTXE November .84 1.55 + 84% 12, 2001 OZLU September 1.07 1.81 + 69% 4, 2001 ***That's an average increase of 47%*** Remember, these aren't necessarily the highest prices since our mailings. Rather, these are the actual percentages based on today's prices compared to the trading day BEFORE we published. In some cases the stocks have actually traded much higher. ------------------------------------------ Today's Featured Company is BioSecure (OTCBB: YCCI) (Presently Known As Yes Clothing Co. Inc) As company's inevitably succeed or fail in the publicly traded arena, their listings are often acquired by new companies in what is known as a reverse merger. In this instance, BioSecure has acquired the "shell" of Yes Clothing Co. for its own purposes. Obviously, Yes Clothing Co. is no longer an active part of this publicly traded vehicle and the stock symbol (YCCI) is now reflective of the business plan of BioSecure Corporation. [Image] Personal Protection Products [Image] Effective personal protection is essential to any person who may be exposed to potentially hazardous substances. Since the Sepember 11th attacks changed our lives forever, many believe that situations may arise when people at home or work may be exposed to bio-hazards. BioSecure will develop, license, purchase, and market bio-technical products to consumers and businesses to assist in preventing or minimalizing any exposure to harmful biological or chemical agents. [Image] [Image]Breaking News from BioSecure (OTCBB: [Image] YCCI) In the tradition of Stocknight and Stockupticks, we have asked BioSecure to publish its press release after the market closed today so that our members get to see it first and have time to research and decide before the entire market reacts on Monday. Friday November 16, 9:31 pm Eastern Time Press Release SOURCE: Yes Clothing Company Inc. Yes Clothing Company Inc. Board of Directors Approves Name Change to BioSecure Corp. Company to Develop, License and Market Personal Bio-Hazard Protection Products NEWPORT BEACH, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 16, 2001--Yes Clothing Company Inc. (OTCBB:YCCI - news) today announced that the company's board of directors has approved the company's name change from Yes Clothing Company Inc. to BioSecure Corp. The company intends to identify and develop, license, purchase and market bio-technical and other personal protection products under the name BioSecure Corp. The name change resolution adopted by the board will be submitted to the Securities and Exchange Commission and shareholders in accordance with the current proxy rules, within the next few weeks. All shareholders of record will receive instructions on where to send their existing certificates in exchange for new certificates. Subject to approval, the company will effect its name change, a corresponding change of CUSIP number and a change in the trading symbol within the next 60 days. ``The name change will effectively separate the company's historical business from its future activities,'' said Jon Lawver, corporate secretary and director of Yes Clothing. ``The board is enthusiastic about entering this market at a time when the world is on heightened alert and there is an obvious need for personal protection products. ``The BioSecure name will better represent the personal protection products the company will be developing and marketing. The recent bio-terrorism events have made it clear that hazardous materials are now part of our daily lives and BioSecure products will be introduced to address everything from anthrax to the more mundane bio-hazards that exist in every business and residence, like copier toner and cleaning products.'' Visit the BioSecure Web site at: http://www.iamprepared.com/. About Yes Clothing Yes Clothing operated a successful woman's wear clothing line under the trade name ``Yes'' until 1997. The company discontinued its clothing business in 1997 and its board of directors has been seeking business opportunities in other industries in order to rebuild. Safe Harbor Statement Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995: This release contains forward-looking statements that are subject to risk and uncertainties, including, but not limited to, the impact of competition, inability to secure investment capital or financing, new and untested products, uncertainty of revenues and earnings, fluctuations in stock price and liquidity, fluctuating operating results and other risks detailed from time to time in the company filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Contact: Yes Clothing Company Inc., Newport Beach Jon Lawver, 949/833-5381 or Market Pathways Shannon T. Squyres, 949/955-1860 (media & investor relations) Click here for YCCI quote & news [Image] The Product Line: PROTECT YOURSELF [Image] FROM... + Contaminates and Pathogens + Toxic Materials + Chemical Splashes + Flying Particles + Bacterial Outbreaks + Unsafe Atmospheres including: Gases, Vapors and Mists. Be Prepared In An Emergency ! -------------------------------- The First Defense Anthrax Personal Protection Kit Provides You With -------------------------------- Breathing Protection Gloves Safety Guidelines [Image] Antiseptic Cleansing Towels Protection That Fits In A Purse, Briefcase Or Lunchbox To Enable An Easy And Safe Evacuation Of An Infected Area This is the same type of protection recommended by the Centers for Disease Control for many mail handlers Now it's available for everyone ! * [Image] For Online Product Information [Image] www.iamprepared.com [Image] Company Contact [Image] Jon Lawver Tel: 949-833-5381 Fax: 949-833-7854 [Image] IMPORTANT INFORMATION [Image] This product greatly reduces but does not eliminate the risk of transmission of infectious diseases. * CDC recommended NIOSH approved respirator masks and NITRIL or vinyl gloves for any mail handlers, in its CDC health advisory letter CDCHAN-0004501-10-24-ADV-N. Want to feature YOUR company to over 1 MILLION investors? Click here to learn more about our programs or email us directly at info at stockupticks.com ----------------------------------------------------- Safe Harbor Statement:Statements contained in this document, including those pertaining to estimates and related plans other than statements of historical fact, are forward-looking statements subject to a number of uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from statements made. Disclaimer: StockUpTicks.com is a property of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (MP). The information, opinions and analysis contained herein are based on sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. Consulta LLC has agreed to pay MP $48,000 for distribution of this report and additional distributions and services over the next three months. This constitutes a conflict of interest as to MP’s ability to remain objective in its communication regarding the subject company. Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. MP is not an investment advisor and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. Information contained herein contains forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which will affect the results. The opinions contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to change without notice. MP and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated. [Image][Image] [Image] [Image] © Stockupticks 2001, All rights reserved [Image] --- You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-90845T at lyris.stocknight.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 21007 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com Fri Nov 16 16:46:03 2001 From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier carlo Montecucchi) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:46:03 -0500 Subject: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description (fwd) References: Message-ID: <00e101c16f01$3dc00790$87c6c0d8@seminole> TO: J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org No possibility to open the web page at the address reported below. Some suggestion? Thanks Pier Carlo Montecucchi Email: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 6:15 PM Subject: FW: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description (fwd) > > > I believe some of you will have an interest in this. > > -- > Yours, > J.A. Terranson > sysadmin at mfn.org > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:08:48 +0000 > From: axel ellrodt > Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners. > > To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU > Subject: Re: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description > > http://www.sfmu.org/documents/biotox/jernigan.pdf http://www.sfmu.org/documents/biotox/jernigan.pdf > > 26 pages about the first ten USA cases > > > From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 16 18:33:49 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:33:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description (fwd) In-Reply-To: <00e101c16f01$3dc00790$87c6c0d8@seminole> Message-ID: I just checked this link on another machine (that didn't have this document cached), and see no problems. Can you be more specific as to what problems you are having? On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Pier carlo Montecucchi wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:46:03 -0500 > From: Pier carlo Montecucchi > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: CDR: Re: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description (fwd) > > TO: J.A. Terranson > sysadmin at mfn.org > > No possibility to open the web page at the address reported below. > Some suggestion? > Thanks > > Pier Carlo Montecucchi > Email: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 6:15 PM > Subject: FW: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description (fwd) > > > > > > > > I believe some of you will have an interest in this. > > > > -- > > Yours, > > J.A. Terranson > > sysadmin at mfn.org > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:08:48 +0000 > > From: axel ellrodt > > Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners. > > > > To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU > > Subject: Re: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description > > > > http://www.sfmu.org/documents/biotox/jernigan.pdf > http://www.sfmu.org/documents/biotox/jernigan.pdf > > > > 26 pages about the first ten USA cases > > > > > > > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Fri Nov 16 21:08:01 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:08:01 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: References: <200111162349.fAGNnwc20685@ihsan.msa-natl.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011116210247.00ae1f70@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:20 PM 11/16/2001 -0500, you wrote: >\Divide the U-235 into two five pound masses. Beat it evenly into the >inside of one of your salad bowls. U-235 is malleable like gold so you >should have no problem shaping it. Do the same with the other U-235 mass >and shape it into the other salad bowl. My recollection is that all Uranium metal isotopes are much harder and denser than steel. That's why depleted uranium 238 its used for armor piercing ammunition. steve From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Nov 16 19:23:17 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:23:17 -0600 Subject: You missed it by >< much. Message-ID: 94th Cong. 1st Sess. H.R. 1603 IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES January 17, 1975 Mr. Drinan introduced the following bill; which was referred the Committee on the Judiciary. A BILL To amend certain sections (authorizing wiretapping and electronic surveillance) of title 18 of the United States Code. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the Congress finds and declares that-- (1) Widespread wiretapping and electronic surveillance, both by private persons and Government agents, both under color of law, and without pretense of legal excuse or justification, has seriously undermined personal security and often violated fundamental constitutional rights, including the rights to free speech, press, and association, the rights to due process and equal protection, and the right to privacy. (2) Complexities and defects in current Federal law have aided those who engage in wiretapping and electronic surveillance, and current Federal law has not provided adequate safeguards against corrupt abuses of communications technology. (3) No person, in any branch of the Federal Government, in however high an office, or in any other governmental or private position should be authorized either explicitly or implicitly to violate the constitutional rights of persons by eavesdropping on private conversations through wiretapping and electronic surveillance. (4) The end of prosecuting those who violate the law does not justify wrongdoing on the part of the Government. (5) The peculiar susceptibility of wiretapping and electronic surveillance to misuse in the furtherance of partisan political goals renders wiretapping and electronic surveillance a particularly dangerous temptation to Government officials, and the chance of its misuse outweighs any potential benefits which might otherwise be found in it. (6) SEC. 2. Title 18 of the United States Code is amended (1) by striking out section 2511(1) Except as otherwise specifically provided in this chapter any person who and inserting in lieu thereof Whoever (2) by inserting immediately after subparagraph (d) of section 2511(1), but before shall be fined the following new subparagraph: (e) willfully intercepts or records any wire or oral communication without the consent of all the parties to such communication; (3) by striking out or at the end of section 2511(1)(d), and by inserting or at the end of section 2511(1)(d); (4) by striking out sections 2511(2)(a)(ii), (b), (c), and (d); (5) by striking out section 2511 (3); (6) by striking out section 2512(1) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, any person who willfully and inserting in lieu thereof Whoever (7) by striking out section 2512(2); and (8) by striking out sections 2516, 2517, 2518, 2519, 2510 (9). ----- "Freedom From Surveillance Act of 1975," Kastenmeier The gist: "(a) Except as provided in subjections (b) of this section or otherwise required by statute, whoever being a civil officer of the United States willfully conducts investigations into, maintains surveillance over, or maintains records regarding the beliefs, associations, political activities, or private affairs of any citizen of the United States, or regarding the beliefs, membership, or political activities of any group or organization of such citizens, shall be fined not more than $10,000, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both." "(b) Nothing contained in the provisions of this section shall be deemed either to limit or to enlarge such legal authority of the United States as may exist to: "(1) collect, receive, or maintain information relevant to an individual who has committed or is suspected on reasonable grounds to have committed a felony;" [...] ------- "Bill Of Rights Procedures Act of 1975" -- asking for a court order based upon probable cause for interception of communications, entry of dwellings, opening of mail, the inspection of and procuring of the records of telephone, bank, credit, medical and other business or private transactions of any individual. ....from a 'vintage' 2 vol. copy of the 94th Cong. surveillance hearings, with a "Center For Investigative Reporting" stamp. ~Aimee From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Fri Nov 16 22:09:02 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:09:02 PST Subject: Stock News & a Free Color Printer! 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This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.vcw.37kh From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 16 22:11:08 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:11:08 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011116210247.00ae1f70@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 09:08 PM, Steve Schear wrote: > At 11:20 PM 11/16/2001 -0500, you wrote: >> \Divide the U-235 into two five pound masses. Beat it evenly into the >> inside of one of your salad bowls. U-235 is malleable like gold so you >> should have no problem shaping it. Do the same with the other U-235 >> mass >> and shape it into the other salad bowl. > > My recollection is that all Uranium metal isotopes are much harder and > denser than steel. That's why depleted uranium > 238 its used for armor piercing ammunition. > Gold is malleable AND is denser than steel. Uranium is NOT malleable AND is denser than steel. The main reason for using DU in armor-piercing shells is the sheer density. The bomb instructions Joe provided are as accurate as most recipes in "The Anarchist Cookbook." (A book my local Sheriff's Department banned in 1970.) --Tim May, Corralitos, California Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." --Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty. From k13335 at mexico.com Fri Nov 16 18:22:42 2001 From: k13335 at mexico.com (k13335 at mexico.com) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:22:42 -0400 Subject: Boost Your Windows Reliability!!!!! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1148 bytes Desc: not available URL: From petro at bounty.org Fri Nov 16 22:31:24 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:31:24 -0800 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) In-Reply-To: <200111170429.XAA25891@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 08:29 PM, Faustine wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > Tim wrote: >> The list has only 5% of the content it had in its glory years, 1992-95. >> And perhaps only 10% of its content in its declining years, 1996-98. >> It's now at about half the level of its senile years, 1999-2000. This >> past year has been the worst. >> There are many reasons for this decline, discussed as early as 1994. >> Any newbies who think this list is now interesting or exciting has my >> sympathy. > Bah. One can regret having missed the glory days while still feeling > like > there's a good handful of people worth coming back for. Maybe the > upcoming > legislation will have the same effect as Clipper and cause the list to > reach > critical mass again. I started reading this list back at the tail end of what Mr. May describes as "the glory days", and it won't ever happen again--not in this area. Part of the energy in those days was people pushing in to vastly new territories, figuring out how to solve the hard problems--and there were a whole bunch back then. There are still lots of hard problems, but they come in dribs and drabs, and often one of these new problems can be reduced to one or two old problems--which isn't nearly as interesting. It's also the nature of the problems that has changed. Then it was easy to get money to try out a new idea. Now that is the problem--how do I take one of these ideas out of this big ass barrel and make *money* off it. Which really isn't nearly so interesting to a lot of the people who were hear before--they either had their money (Mr. May, Gilmore) or cared more about playing with ideas, philosophies and technology than getting rich. Which isn't exactly accurate. There really hasn't ever been any one thing that was true about every poster here, other than in some fashion or other they could use an email client (maybe not well, but they could). Today getting money is a bitch, and just about anything to do with crypto is going to be a huge risk--product liability, government regulation, etc. makes many of the really interesting projects a bitch and a half to even get off the ground, and the one thing that would make it all come together, the one thing that has generated more traffic than any other on this list is still virtually non-existent. Which is, I guess, why some of us still wander back through here every so often. It's kinda like going back to your childhood home. Look, there Mrs. Rice, she taught American Civics, And there's that crochety old man May, I bet he *still* has my baseball in his house somewere. Bastard chased me out of his yard with a FNFAL. You wander back looking for news of the people you knew (What ever happened to Sameer P? Perry? Is Karl Johnson still in the Big House?) or looking to see if things are any better, but it's a small town, and it's not on the main highway any more. From petro at bounty.org Fri Nov 16 22:34:53 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:34:53 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011116210247.00ae1f70@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3557FF4F-DB25-11D5-B489-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 09:08 PM, Steve Schear wrote: > At 11:20 PM 11/16/2001 -0500, you wrote: >> \Divide the U-235 into two five pound masses. Beat it evenly into the >> inside of one of your salad bowls. U-235 is malleable like gold so you >> should have no problem shaping it. Do the same with the other U-235 >> mass >> and shape it into the other salad bowl. > > My recollection is that all Uranium metal isotopes are much harder and > denser than steel. That's why depleted uranium > 238 its used for armor piercing ammunition. IIRC it's heavier, not harder (more mass for the size). Lead and Gold (as the !Dr mentioned) are both (cm^3 for cm^3) heavier than steel, and both are "softer". Both also make (in the material sense) better bullets for certain types of targets, with the exception that gold is a lot more expensive than lead, and far more useful as bait for the things you want to shoot. -- For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956) From azazel1981 at ole.com Fri Nov 16 13:57:13 2001 From: azazel1981 at ole.com (azazel1981) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:57:13 +0100 Subject: pics Message-ID: <614a364177.64177614a3@teleline.es> Do you want to trade kiddie porn pics with me???? please reply... From baptista at pccf.net Fri Nov 16 20:20:59 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:20:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <200111162349.fAGNnwc20685@ihsan.msa-natl.org> Message-ID: One thing that is bothering me these days are all the reports coming out of Afganistan that nuclear bomb making plans were found. Big deal. Anyone on the planet can make a nuclear device if they have the appropriate materials. The hard part is staying alive due to exposure while manufacturing the device. If however death is not an issue then the process itself becomes easy to accomplish. Materials --------- 4 stainless steal salad bowls (5 - 8 inch diameter) 10 pounds of U-235 (Plutonium) 1 containment cylinder in which to fit the salad bowls ? some explosives - C4 platic works best - but TNT or gun powder is acceptable. Assembly -------- 10 pounds of U-235 is required to achive critical mass. However less will work but you will get a sub critical mass on detonation. The difference is taking out an entire city as opposed to a few city blocks. Divide the U-235 into two five pound masses. Beat it evenly into the inside of one of your salad bowls. U-235 is malleable like gold so you should have no problem shaping it. Do the same with the other U-235 mass and shape it into the other salad bowl. Keep the two bowls apart - you don't want an accident to cause your project to go critical. C4 explosives work best. You simply mold the C4 into the other two salad bowls. This is the most dangerous part of the project. Improper handling of C4 can cause an explosion. But gun powder is just as effective. Now fit the U-235 salad bowls into the C4 salad bowls and place them at each end of the cylindrical containment. Connect your explosives to a detonator and close off the ends of the cylynder. Make sure the detonator sets off both explosives at the same time. The trick is to bring the U-235 masses together at the same time. And thats it. I would recommend some form of protection while building the project. The aprons worn by dentists will work. They will protect you to some degree from radioactive poisoning. However - your life is only being prolonged by taking such measures - you still will end up dead due to the U-235 radiation regardless of what you do. And thats it. Conclusion ---------- Anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device. So the only issue in building the device is the will to die for a cause. And the only thing I find unfortunate in all of this is that there are so many causes that people are willing to die for. And war will not make those reasons go away - it will only encourage them. regards joe baptista -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot-god.com/ The dot.GOD Registry, Limited The Executive Plaza, Suite 908 150 West 51st Street Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173 Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773 From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Fri Nov 16 23:27:12 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:27:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Devicet In-Reply-To: from "!Dr. Joe Baptista" at Nov 16, 2001 11:20:59 PM Message-ID: <200111170727.fAH7RCI20723@artifact.psychedelic.net> Dr. Joe Baptista writes: > Anyone on the planet can make a nuclear device if they have the > appropriate materials. The hard part is staying alive due to exposure > while manufacturing the device. Why? Neither U-235 nor Pu-239 is particularly radioactive. Vitrified plutonium disks have been used as poker chips by workers in fuel fabrication facilities. Most of these materials are only dangerous when ingested, radiating your tissues with alpha particles directly. They also have very low rates of spontaneous fission, so neutrons aren't generally a big deal. As long as you stay clear of criticality, you aren't going to get radiated at all. > Materials > 4 stainless steal salad bowls (5 - 8 inch diameter) > 10 pounds of U-235 (Plutonium) > 1 containment cylinder in which to fit the salad bowls > ? some explosives - C4 platic works best - but TNT or gun powder is > acceptable. My bullshit detector is starting to go off. > 10 pounds of U-235 is required to achive critical mass. Well, that depends on your moderator, doesn't it? The "bare sphere" critical mass of U-235 is over 50 kilograms, if you don't mix it with a moderator, or surround it with a neutron reflector. Fast neutron fission cross-sections aren't particularly large. Plutonium is somewhat better, but you'll need at least 11 kilograms, even with a nice tamper to bounce the neutrons back. > However less will work but you will get a sub critical mass on > detonation. The difference is taking out an entire city as opposed to a > few city blocks. A sub-critical mass won't do squat. A criticality accident will kill you, and require a hazmat crew to clean up your lab, but it won't blow anything up. Generally, what you make critical will just melt and splatter into a non-critical shape, if no effort is made to confine it. > Divide the U-235 into two five pound masses. Beat it evenly into the > inside of one of your salad bowls. U-235 is malleable like gold so you > should have no problem shaping it. Do the same with the other U-235 mass > and shape it into the other salad bowl. This is silly. Nuclear weapons can be made to work by compressing a solid sphere to double density with explosives, or by removing an "apple core" third of a supercritical sphere, and shooting it back in with a gun. The hollow sphere myth remains pervasive because scientists had the idea of imploding a hollow sphere with explosives when the Manhattan project begun, and because the government has been less than forthcoming with what methods actually turned out to work. While a generous hollow sphere with a small void might work, something made by beating nuclear material into a salad bowl certainly wouldn't, even if you managed to time the explosives perfectly. I suggest you look uranium up in your materials handbook before you start whacking it into your salad bowl. Pure uranium is only slightly softer than steel, and with a little molybdenum added, is harder than the finest tool steel. Malleable means the material doesn't break when you work it. It is not a measure of how much force is required to work it. Gold is soft. Uranium isn't. > Keep the two bowls apart - you don't want an accident to cause your > project to go critical. Did Jack Lemmon write this laughable tract back during his "China Syndrome" days? > C4 explosives work best. You simply mold the C4 into the other two salad > bowls. This is the most dangerous part of the project. Improper handling > of C4 can cause an explosion. But gun powder is just as effective. I think you need to look up "velocity of detonation" as it pertains to gun powder. > Now fit the U-235 salad bowls into the C4 salad bowls and place them at > each end of the cylindrical containment. Connect your explosives to a > detonator and close off the ends of the cylynder. Make sure the detonator > sets off both explosives at the same time. > The trick is to bring the U-235 masses together at the same time. Uh huh. > And thats it. I would recommend some form of protection while building > the project. The aprons worn by dentists will work. They will protect > you to some degree from radioactive poisoning. However - your life is > only being prolonged by taking such measures - you still will end up dead > due to the U-235 radiation regardless of what you do. U-235 radiation? This person would flunk even the elementary school course in nuclear engineering. Clad unirradiated nuclear fuel can be safely handled without protective clothing, and isn't particularly radioactive. > Anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device. So the only issue in > building the device is the will to die for a cause. And the only thing I > find unfortunate in all of this is that there are so many causes that > people are willing to die for. And war will not make those reasons go > away - it will only encourage them. Well, anyone with a few minor mechanical engineering clues, a calculator, and the ability to calculate fission cross-sections. Dying isn't required, unless you stand near the bomb when it goes off. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From faustine at lokmail.net Fri Nov 16 20:29:25 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:29:25 -0500 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) Message-ID: <200111170429.XAA25891@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 16 23:56:00 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:56:00 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8ABC62D3-DB30-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 10:43 PM, baptista at pccf.net wrote: > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > >> Gold is malleable AND is denser than steel. >> >> Uranium is NOT malleable AND is denser than steel. > > Incorrect. Uranium is an actinide series element. It is a hard silver > almost white substance which is both malleable and ductile. Of course > this does not imply you should use it as a replacement for duck > tape. Also like gold it has a luster when polished. Uranium is not malleable in the same way either gold or silver are. Nearly all metals are malleable to some extent (in that they don't shatter when subjected to shear forces), but I was responding to your "beat the metal in a stainless steel bowl" idea. Good luck on beat U this way! A chart of the rigidity moduli for the elements gives a good idea of why U is not normally considered very malleable: http://www.webelements.com/webelements/properties/text/image- intensity/rigidity-modulus.html Also, I don't get what you mean by saying it has a luster when polished. Yeah, all metals do..until they oxidize/tarnish/anodize. The chunks of uranium I used to work with were pure metallic...and dark grey/black. > --Tim May "Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." --Robert A. Heinlein From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 17 00:24:31 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 00:24:31 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <866B2EE1-DB34-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 08:20 PM, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: > One thing that is bothering me these days are all the reports coming out > of Afganistan that nuclear bomb making plans were found. Big > deal. Anyone on the planet can make a nuclear device if they have the > appropriate materials. The hard part is staying alive due to exposure > while manufacturing the device. > > If however death is not an issue then the process itself becomes easy to > accomplish. Tom Clancy did a good job of describing how to make a low-yield nuke in one of his novels, the one about a nuke in the Denver stadium. (I think it was "The Sum of All Fears.") It's been many years since I read it, but my recollection is that one of the actors gets sick. As Eric C. pointed out in his follow-up to your article, this business of "staying alive" is probably the easiest of the problems to solve. The biggest hazard is from ingestion of the materials, either from some grinding or machining stage, or liquid compounds (molding the fissionables). (The "apron" you mention at some point is almost totally beside the point. Working in a good fume hood or laminar flow hood would be a better safety precaution. Wearing a moonsuit and gloves would be extra protection. Not eating sandwiches or Doritos while mixing the stuff also helps.) > Materials > --------- > > 4 stainless steal salad bowls (5 - 8 inch diameter) > 10 pounds of U-235 (Plutonium) > 1 containment cylinder in which to fit the salad bowls > ? some explosives - C4 platic works best - but TNT or gun powder is > acceptable. > > Divide the U-235 into two five pound masses. Beat it evenly into the > inside of one of your salad bowls. U-235 is malleable like gold so you > should have no problem shaping it. Do the same with the other U-235 > mass > and shape it into the other salad bowl. > > C4 explosives work best. You simply mold the C4 into the other two > salad > bowls. This is the most dangerous part of the project. Improper > handling > of C4 can cause an explosion. But gun powder is just as effective. Why so complicated on the detonation geometry? Without doing some experiments and getting the fast ignition triggers (on the real munitions list), I'd doubt strongly that your scheme would work the first time. And gunpowder is almost guaranteed to not work. > > > Anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device. So the only issue in > building the device is the will to die for a cause. And the only > thing I > find unfortunate in all of this is that there are so many causes that > people are willing to die for. And war will not make those reasons go > away - it will only encourage them. > It's really _not_ this easy. It took China and India a while before they successfully tested an A-bomb (many years after they had the raw materials from their reactor programs). It may have taken the South Africans and Israelis a few years after getting materials, too. So, why didn't they just hammer U-235 into stainless steel mixing bowls and do it the way "anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device," one wonders. I'd guess that the "tall pipe" version is the most buildable of the basement nukes. (In a nutshell: a tall drainpipe, perhaps 40 feet tall. Set up in an apartment building, warehouse, etc. At the base the pipe is reinforced with copious amounts of concrete. The subcritical masses are at opposite ends of the pipe. The mass on top is piled on with several hundred pounds of ballast, to "tamp" the early critical mass action. To explode the bomb, drop the mass from the top of the pipe. The critical mass is briefly contained by the concrete collar around the pipe and the inertial mass above. Is it enough to produce a real chain reaction? Well, it's all relative. Still, not very efficient.) From mattd at useoz.com Fri Nov 16 05:26:24 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 00:26:24 +1100 Subject: Declan;Comped scribbler and bottom feeder? Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011117001202.00a18c10@pop.useoz.com> "quasi-academic think-tank which acts as a mouthpiece for the globalism, corporatism, and neoliberalism of its corporate and conservative funders." Not my description,(Im not as complimentary)of the cato institute.Besides hosting adress harvesting 'free gifts'adware on one his sites our resident reporter is a speaker at the above mentioned institute.Beats knitting besides the guillotine,I guess.Still if hes not to busy maybe he could help us with the idea that free market theory is a hostile weapon against development of emerging nations? From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 17 00:33:02 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 00:33:02 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 12:18 AM, baptista at pccf.net wrote: > > Now - i've replied to you below - but I think were missing the point of > the post. So i'll repeat - it's easy to do harm when you have the will > to > die to rally your cause - as we have seen on sept 11. and i find it > regrettable that conditions exist in which people use extreme methods > to focus the people of this planet on the fact that western governments > are basically evil. Look, people respond to points they are interested in responding to. That I didn't comment on your political point about "will to die to rally our cause" point does not mean I didn't "miss the point." It just is such an obvious point as to be unexceptionable. More interesting to me was picking apart your "stainless steel bowls bomb." > >> Nearly all metals are malleable to some extent (in that they don't >> shatter when subjected to shear forces), but I was responding to your >> "beat the metal in a stainless steel bowl" idea. Good luck on beat U >> this way! > > Possible - never build one myself. I would assume that if it is harder > to > work then gold - then just get very thick stanless steel bowls. I'm > sure > you'd need a few trials to figure it out. A true understatement. Try beating a piece of uranium! (From the rigidity modulus tables, and Young's modulus tables, you can find comparable metals to experiment with.) This is why most such hemispheres and hemispherical sections are made with molds and slurries of fissionables. Getting uniformity by "beating" a fairly hard metal is not easy. > >> The chunks of uranium I used to work with were pure metallic...and dark >> grey/black. > > sounds unrefined or badly oxidized. I've never seen chunks of > uranium. Was this in it's unrefined state. What was it > exactly. Pitchblende? Pure metallic uranium, both in the natural abundances and in the pure U-238 (DU) form. --Tim May "The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Nov 16 22:33:29 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 00:33:29 -0600 Subject: America the Beautiful In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > > Behalf Of keyser-soze at hushmail.com > > > I suggest if you find expression of such logical sentiment > > objectionable that you leave the list. I wrote: > Can't we just object? > > "I object." > > Said objection is now a part of the record. "In the heyday of the Red Squad, law enforcers from J. Edgar Hoover's FBI on down to the local level in Chicago focused to an unhealthy degree on political dissidents, whose primary activity was advocacy though it sometimes spilled over into violence. Today the concern, prudent and not paranoid, is with ideologically motivated terrorism. The City does not want to resurrect the Red Squad. It wants to be able to keep tabs on incipient terrorist groups. New groups of political extremists, believers in and advocates of violence, form daily around the world. If one forms in or migrates to Chicago, the decree renders the police helpless to do anything to protect the public against the day when the group decides to commit a terrorist act. Until the group goes beyond the advocacy of violence and begins preparatory actions that might create reasonable suspicion of imminent criminal activity, the hands of the police are tied. And if the police have been forbidden to investigate until then, if the investigation cannot begin until the group is well on its way toward the commission of terrorist acts, the investigation may come too late to prevent the acts or to identify the perpetrators. If police get wind that a group of people have begun meeting and discussing the desirability of committing acts of violence in pursuit of an ideological agenda, a due regard for the public safety counsels allowing the police department to monitor the statements of the group's members, to build a file, perhaps to plant an undercover agent." -- Alliance to End Repression v. City of Chicago, 237 F.3d 799 (7th Cir. Ill. 2001). --- May I have a ruling? This list is flypaper, so it makes for interesting research and insights. However, at some point, somebody turned on the bug zapper. *pszzzt*..*pszzt*...*pzt* ~Aimee From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 17 00:52:09 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 00:52:09 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <62A2CA76-DB38-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 12:37 AM, baptista at pccf.net wrote: > > > On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > >> I'd guess that the "tall pipe" version is the most buildable of the >> basement nukes. (In a nutshell: a tall drainpipe, perhaps 40 feet tall. >> Set up in an apartment building, warehouse, etc. At the base the pipe >> is >> reinforced with copious amounts of concrete. The subcritical masses are >> at opposite ends of the pipe. The mass on top is piled on with several >> hundred pounds of ballast, to "tamp" the early critical mass action. To >> explode the bomb, drop the mass from the top of the pipe. The critical >> mass is briefly contained by the concrete collar around the pipe and >> the >> inertial mass above. Is it enough to produce a real chain reaction? >> Well, it's all relative. Still, not very efficient.) > > I very much doubt terrorist would build an efficient bomb. Non of what > we > discussed is effcient. Your pipe idea is a very interesting example. > But > I think the point is made that harm can be done. Even if the mass does > not go critical - it still means a few city blocks that will be > inconvenienced from the resulting radiation. You pipe certainly would > not > go boom - but it would leave a mess of radioactivity in the area. The idea _is_ for it to detonate, not just have a severe thermal excursion! The total "radioactivity" in a critical mass of fissionables is actually not all that great. (Not something I'd want in my backyard, and sure to produce panic, but not all that significant.) The point of a bomb is to get a _lot_ of those radioisotopes fissioning in a much shorter amount of time than usual. Without that chain reaction, the radioisotopes are just decaying at their normal very, very slow rate. (The reason uranium is so radioactively benign is that it's half life is several billion years for the most common isotope and pretty close to that for the U-235 form...the reason we still find both in nature, of course.) For the oft-discussed "radiological bomb" there is no need for U-235. In fact, shorter half-lived stuff like cesium-137 and even spent fuel rods would be better. Personally, this is much _less_ worrisome than biological weapons. If radioisotopes are spread over a few city blocks, for example, they can be cleaned up in various ways. Easy to detect with a Geiger counter (or scintillation counter), easy to vacuum up with HEPA filter units, all sorts of foaming agents and hoses and the whole decontamination apparatus. And if the Geiger counter is silent, it's all gone. A radiological bomb would result in an evacuation, and the usual panic by the sheeple who are afraid of atoms, but the cleanup would be straightforward. (Chernobyl was what it was because many tons, even hundreds of tons, of fuel rods were vaporized and/or burned. Not many terrorists could arrange for the vaporization/combustion of this much material.) --Tim May "As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later convinces himself." -- David Friedman From declan at well.com Fri Nov 16 21:55:30 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 00:55:30 -0500 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) In-Reply-To: <200111162342.SAA20082@mail.lokmail.net>; from faustine@lokmail.net on Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 06:42:47PM -0500 References: <200111162342.SAA20082@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <20011117005530.A15280@cluebot.com> On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 06:42:47PM -0500, Faustine wrote: > Actually Congress is chock full of lightweights. And all their ratty > little undereducated staffers who soak up whatever lobbyists and > their shoddy two-bit partisan "guess tanks" happen to be shilling > for this week. I know plenty of quality analysts who loathe > testifing before Congress--quite unlike the faceless horde of guess > tank media whores scrambling for the spotlight. I confess I know many congressional staffers. Alas, what you say is not quite right. Most are over-educated: law degress from decent universities and (this is quite popular) master's and PhDs in "public policy." What they're under-educated about, often, is an understanding of how the world outside of Washington works. It's possible to do an internship in college and move here immediately after graduation and always work in the nonprofit or government sector. Hardly an honest living. > I'll say this much: getting pro-freedom policy analysts in > positions where they don't have to scramble to be heard will be the > real accomplishment. Not just knocking their heads against a brick > wall as per usual. So what's your plan? -Declan From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 17 01:06:39 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 01:06:39 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <8ABC62D3-DB30-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011117010550.033041f0@idiom.com> At 11:56 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote: >Nearly all metals are malleable to some extent (in that they don't shatter >when subjected to shear forces), but I was responding to your "beat the >metal in a stainless steel bowl" idea. Good luck on beat U this way! Isn't a plowshare a bit more appropriate thing to beat it into? :-) From baptista at pccf.net Fri Nov 16 22:43:04 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 01:43:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Gold is malleable AND is denser than steel. > > Uranium is NOT malleable AND is denser than steel. Incorrect. Uranium is an actinide series element. It is a hard silver almost white substance which is both malleable and ductile. Of course this does not imply you should use it as a replacement for duck tape. Also like gold it has a luster when polished. > The main reason for using DU in armor-piercing shells is the sheer > density. correct > The bomb instructions Joe provided are as accurate as most recipes in > "The Anarchist Cookbook." > > (A book my local Sheriff's Department banned in 1970.) not surprised. regards joe -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From baptista at pccf.net Fri Nov 16 23:10:37 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 02:10:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <801930946.20011117083737@ukrname.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Sergei Kolodka wrote: > To be realistic - everyone can built BIG bomb with ammony, > acetone and sugar - things from nearest supermarket. > Not as big as nuclear one, but enough big to destroy > building. That is the issue is it not? The fact is the building of a nuclear bomb and the associated risks are questionable. Much easier to just work with easy to find materials. Incidentally - the process of refining U-235 from U-238 is not impossible - and I suspect U-235 is easily available on the black market. It's normally distributed as little pellets. But you are absolutly correct - much easier to just goto the local supermarket and pick up a few sundries and bang - you've got a bomb - or something dangerous. My point was that it is unfortunate that humanity is so repressed that issues exist which cause individuals or groups to manufacture such things with the intent of committing harm. Sept 11 is an excellent example of this where planes became flying bombs. And it is much easier to walk onto a plane and use it to cause harm then building a nuclear device. regards joe -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot-god.com/ The dot.GOD Registry, Limited The Executive Plaza, Suite 908 150 West 51st Street Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173 Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773 From baptista at pccf.net Fri Nov 16 23:24:30 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 02:24:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a reference which should give you a good but brief outline of Uranium and it associated properties and uses. http://pearl1.lanl.gov/periodic/elements/92.html Incendentally this reference is taken from the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics a great reference manual. I still have my old copy in storage - great paper weight ;) Now one thing I've forgotten is that uranium is also pyrophoric when finely divided. I wonder if that property can be capitalized on to cause harm. Not only could one use Uranium (235, 238 whatever) as an incendiary device but both types of U will leave a radioactive hazard. Of course it's more logical to use U-238 for that. regards joe On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 baptista at pccf.net wrote: > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > > > Gold is malleable AND is denser than steel. > > > > Uranium is NOT malleable AND is denser than steel. > > Incorrect. Uranium is an actinide series element. It is a hard silver > almost white substance which is both malleable and ductile. Of course > this does not imply you should use it as a replacement for duck > tape. Also like gold it has a luster when polished. > > > The main reason for using DU in armor-piercing shells is the sheer > > density. > > correct > > > The bomb instructions Joe provided are as accurate as most recipes in > > "The Anarchist Cookbook." > > > > (A book my local Sheriff's Department banned in 1970.) > > not surprised. > > regards > joe > > -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From DeMinEm15 at aol.com Fri Nov 16 23:31:35 2001 From: DeMinEm15 at aol.com (DeMinEm15 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 02:31:35 EST Subject: business opportunity Message-ID: <12e.7b2a8ee.29276c57@aol.com> is the 34,95 for your book, or is it to start making money sending envelopes. Or do we get the book then follow instructions? From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com Fri Nov 16 23:45:49 2001 From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier carlo Montecucchi) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 02:45:49 -0500 Subject: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description (fwd) References: Message-ID: <005301c16f3b$e157dd30$03cdc0d8@seminole> I was able to read the document on "anthrax" going to the URL address: www.sfmu.org/kiosque (Societe' Francophone de Medicine d'Urgence) and then, click on the link referred to "Documents et liens sur le bioterrorism de guerre, le plan BIOTOX en France" I arrived then to: "Terrorism bacteriologique et chimique - Textes de references" by Dr. Lannehoa - Dr. Berthier. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:33 PM Subject: Re: CDR: Re: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description (fwd) > > > I just checked this link on another machine (that didn't have this > document cached), and see no problems. Can you be more specific as to > what problems you are having? > > > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Pier carlo Montecucchi wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:46:03 -0500 > > From: Pier carlo Montecucchi > > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > > Subject: CDR: Re: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description (fwd) > > > > TO: J.A. Terranson > > sysadmin at mfn.org > > > > No possibility to open the web page at the address reported below. > > Some suggestion? > > Thanks > > > > Pier Carlo Montecucchi > > Email: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Cc: > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 6:15 PM > > Subject: FW: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe some of you will have an interest in this. > > > > > > -- > > > Yours, > > > J.A. Terranson > > > sysadmin at mfn.org > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:08:48 +0000 > > > From: axel ellrodt > > > Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners. > > > > > > To: EMED-L at ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU > > > Subject: Re: [EMED-L] anthrax clinical description > > > > > > http://www.sfmu.org/documents/biotox/jernigan.pdf > > http://www.sfmu.org/documents/biotox/jernigan.pdf > > > > > > 26 pages about the first ten USA cases > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Yours, > J.A. Terranson > sysadmin at mfn.org > > If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they > should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: > Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of > unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in > the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and > elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire > populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... > This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States > as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. > > The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, > associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of > those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the > first place... > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From biochoicesales at usa.com Sat Nov 17 02:46:50 2001 From: biochoicesales at usa.com (BioChoice Products) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 02:46:50 Subject: Important Requested Business Information Message-ID: <200111170851.CAA11549@einstein.ssz.com> Dear Entrepreneur; What if the information I would like to send you was powerful enough to allow you to become financially independent in 12 months? What if you were one of the first to know about a product, created by 2 FORTUNE 50 companies to help support and balance the human immune system? A product with over a decade of research, many years of clinical trials and 80 million dollars invested. A product being endorsed by Professors of Medicine at leading universities such as Harvard Medical School. A product with over 100 Patents and more pending worldwide. A product recentlly seen on ABC news special report with investigative news reporter saying "This Product is a Miracle." Please do yourself and your loved ones a favor, and reply to this e-mail with your full name, address and phone number so I can mail you further information. If you find it as compelling as I did, we need to talk. Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Sales Department biochoicesales at usa.com REMOVE INSTRUCTIONS: Every effort has been made to avoid mailing this to those who do not wish to receive email. This list has been filtered against various remove lists. If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please reply to biochoicesales at usa.com with REMOVE in the Subject line. From declan at well.com Sat Nov 17 00:10:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 03:10:12 -0500 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) In-Reply-To: ; from petro@bounty.org on Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:31:24PM -0800 References: <200111170429.XAA25891@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <20011117031012.A17727@cluebot.com> On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:31:24PM -0800, Petro wrote: > Part of the energy in those days was people pushing in to vastly > new territories, figuring out how to solve the hard problems--and there > were a whole bunch back then. There are still lots of hard problems, but > they come in dribs and drabs, and often one of these new problems can be > reduced to one or two old problems--which isn't nearly as interesting. I may have started reading the list in 1994. To add something to the above: Also in the early days, folks were still thinking through the implications of the technologies, the future was a bit sunnier than it is nowadays, and there weren't quite as many (this may be just wishful thinking) loserflamers around. In addition, the FBI and Secret Service and TIGTA and whatnot hadn't been interrogating and arresting list members. Things have changed. -Declan From baptista at pccf.net Sat Nov 17 00:18:31 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 03:18:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <8ABC62D3-DB30-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: Now - i've replied to you below - but I think were missing the point of the post. So i'll repeat - it's easy to do harm when you have the will to die to rally your cause - as we have seen on sept 11. and i find it regrettable that conditions exist in which people use extreme methods to focus the people of this planet on the fact that western governments are basically evil. Now the remainder of my reply is not much more then having a physics discussion - which i think is not the point - but -- On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Uranium is not malleable in the same way either gold or silver are. I said it was malleable - it can be worked. maybe not the same way or gold or silver - but as you can see from the periodic table it is malleable. I personally have never worked it. But i have seen a few pelets in my lifetime. > Nearly all metals are malleable to some extent (in that they don't > shatter when subjected to shear forces), but I was responding to your > "beat the metal in a stainless steel bowl" idea. Good luck on beat U > this way! Possible - never build one myself. I would assume that if it is harder to work then gold - then just get very thick stanless steel bowls. I'm sure you'd need a few trials to figure it out. > A chart of the rigidity moduli for the elements gives a good idea of why > U is not normally considered very malleable: > > http://www.webelements.com/webelements/properties/text/image- > intensity/rigidity-modulus.html oy > Also, I don't get what you mean by saying it has a luster when polished. > Yeah, all metals do..until they oxidize/tarnish/anodize. just what it means - so your right - it shares that characteristic with other metals. > The chunks of uranium I used to work with were pure metallic...and dark > grey/black. sounds unrefined or badly oxidized. I've never seen chunks of uranium. Was this in it's unrefined state. What was it exactly. Pitchblende? regards joe -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From baptista at pccf.net Sat Nov 17 00:37:14 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 03:37:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <866B2EE1-DB34-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > I'd guess that the "tall pipe" version is the most buildable of the > basement nukes. (In a nutshell: a tall drainpipe, perhaps 40 feet tall. > Set up in an apartment building, warehouse, etc. At the base the pipe is > reinforced with copious amounts of concrete. The subcritical masses are > at opposite ends of the pipe. The mass on top is piled on with several > hundred pounds of ballast, to "tamp" the early critical mass action. To > explode the bomb, drop the mass from the top of the pipe. The critical > mass is briefly contained by the concrete collar around the pipe and the > inertial mass above. Is it enough to produce a real chain reaction? > Well, it's all relative. Still, not very efficient.) I very much doubt terrorist would build an efficient bomb. Non of what we discussed is effcient. Your pipe idea is a very interesting example. But I think the point is made that harm can be done. Even if the mass does not go critical - it still means a few city blocks that will be inconvenienced from the resulting radiation. You pipe certainly would not go boom - but it would leave a mess of radioactivity in the area. regards joe -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From baptista at pccf.net Sat Nov 17 01:33:37 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 04:33:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Look, people respond to points they are interested in responding to. > That I didn't comment on your political point about "will to die to > rally our cause" point does not mean I didn't "miss the point." It just > is such an obvious point as to be unexceptionable. I went fishing and here we are - the truth. I'm not saying this to insult you. After all christ was a fisher of man. The only important thing which you have written me to date is stated above - and I quote "It just is such an obvious point as to be unexceptionable." Correct Tim - absolutly correct. And why is that. Why has this civilization reached the point where the death of people is "unexceptional". And why do we as a civilized people involve ourselves in endless drivel invoiving steal bowls while the unexception suffer. This civilization has become an abomination in the eyes of god and pretty well any other civilized intellect who recognize that the unexception is in reality a horror of vast purportions. This civilization claims to love it's children - yet children are massacred yearly in the thousands. Most of it state sponsored. Unexceptional? This civilization claims it loves democracy, yet we fund israelly nazis who brutalize the palestinian people. Obvioulsy very unexceptional - yes? East Timor, South Arfrica ... crimes, murders, rapes - all state funded - unexceptional? Now Tim your a bright boy - why do you think all of this has become "unexceptional". That one i'm not too sure I understand. I suspect it involves some conditioning for us to consider this so unexceptional. I mean Tim - let's get real - if your mother gets raped pillaged and pludered - i in some way doubt you would conisder that unexceptional. So why do we allow our governments to continue in this unexecptional way with the mother of others? regards joe -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From baptista at pccf.net Sat Nov 17 01:53:26 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 04:53:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <62A2CA76-DB38-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > The idea _is_ for it to detonate, not just have a severe thermal > excursion! No Tim - that is incorrect. The Thermal incursion will do just swell. Remember these people are making a point. So the nuclear device is nothing more then a prop in an endless show of pain. The rest of the act will rely on the audience. I remind you of antrax theatre. -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From baptista at pccf.net Sat Nov 17 01:58:53 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 04:58:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011117010550.033041f0@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 11:56 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote: > >Nearly all metals are malleable to some extent (in that they don't shatter > >when subjected to shear forces), but I was responding to your "beat the > >metal in a stainless steel bowl" idea. Good luck on beat U this way! > > Isn't a plowshare a bit more appropriate thing to beat it into? :-) exactly. now how can we achive that. like everyone else - i love the show. sex is better. the prices are dropping. so i can't really complain from the consumers point of view. however i am a human being and i do think it's time we get our demented politicians to stop this crap once and for all. so how to do this bill. i personally think we should maybe make laws to hang politicians. start hanging them petty crimes they commit against us - i.e. environmental polution and we can work up from there. but i'm a bit of a radical and am willing to listen to other options. anyone have ideas. regards joe -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From baptista at pccf.net Sat Nov 17 03:46:14 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 06:46:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <3BF647A6.F3736F90@mozcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: > detonation. You can actually hold a subcritical mass of plutonium in > your hand for awhile - I'm told it feels warm. Can't say I've tried it > myself. hold on mr. expert. you hold a sub critical mass in your hand and in a few days you end up shitting out your guts, lose your hair and die. so i assume the person who had the opportunity to hold such a critical mass is now dead. where are you getting your info on what it feels like? curious george here. -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From reeza at hawaii.rr.com Sat Nov 17 09:49:02 2001 From: reeza at hawaii.rr.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 07:49:02 -1000 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011117010550.033041f0@idiom.com> References: <8ABC62D3-DB30-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011117074616.00cf0d60@pop-server.hawaii.rr.com> At 01:06 AM 11/17/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 11:56 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote: >>Nearly all metals are malleable to some extent (in that they don't shatter >>when subjected to shear forces), but I was responding to your "beat the >>metal in a stainless steel bowl" idea. Good luck on beat U this way! > >Isn't a plowshare a bit more appropriate thing to beat it into? :-) Those who beat their uranium into plowshares will plow for those who don't. ;) Reese From folio at infocom.zp.ua Fri Nov 16 22:37:37 2001 From: folio at infocom.zp.ua (Sergei Kolodka) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:37:37 +0200 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <801930946.20011117083737@ukrname.com> Hello !Dr., That's just description of chain reaction from school course of physics, every kid know that from age 14. It's impossible to find somewhere in universe 2 kilos of pure plutonium. So, impossible to built nuclear bomb with wight less then 40-50 kilos, and definitely impossible to built it in stainless steal (why you need to steal them ? :) ) salad bowls. DJB> 4 stainless steal salad bowls (5 - 8 inch diameter) DJB> 10 pounds of U-235 (Plutonium) DJB> 1 containment cylinder in which to fit the salad bowls DJB> ? some explosives - C4 platic works best - but TNT or gun powder is DJB> acceptable. DJB> Assembly [...] LOL ! To be realistic - everyone can built BIG bomb with ammony, acetone and sugar - things from nearest supermarket. Not as big as nuclear one, but enough big to destroy building. -- Best regards, Sergei mailto:folio at infocom.zp.ua From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 17 09:06:26 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 09:06:26 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <866B2EE1-DB34-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117090327.04f25da8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:24 AM 11/17/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote: >On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 08:20 PM, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: > >Anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device. So the only issue in >>building the device is the will to die for a cause. And the only thing I >>find unfortunate in all of this is that there are so many causes that >>people are willing to die for. And war will not make those reasons go >>away - it will only encourage them. > >It's really _not_ this easy. It took China and India a while before they >successfully tested an A-bomb (many years after they had the raw materials >from their reactor programs). It may have taken the South Africans and >Israelis a few years after getting materials, too. So, why didn't they >just hammer U-235 into stainless steel mixing bowls and do it the way >"anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device," one wonders. > >I'd guess that the "tall pipe" version is the most buildable of the >basement nukes. (In a nutshell: a tall drainpipe, perhaps 40 feet tall. >Set up in an apartment building, warehouse, etc. At the base the pipe is >reinforced with copious amounts of concrete. The subcritical masses are at >opposite ends of the pipe. The mass on top is piled on with several >hundred pounds of ballast, to "tamp" the early critical mass action. To >explode the bomb, drop the mass from the top of the pipe. The critical >mass is briefly contained by the concrete collar around the pipe and the >inertial mass above. Is it enough to produce a real chain reaction? Well, >it's all relative. Still, not very efficient.) Interestingly enough, the United States government conducted a controlled experiment called the Nth Country Experiment to see how much effort was actually required to develop a viable fission weapon design starting from nothing. In this experiment, which ended on 10 April 1967, three newly graduated physics students were given the task of developing a detailed weapon design using only public domain information. The project reached a successful conclusion, that is, they did develop a viable design (detailed in the classified report UCRL-50248) after expending only three man-years of effort over two and a half calendar years. In the years since, much more information has entered the public domain so that the level of effort required has obviously dropped further. This experiment established an upper limit on the required level of effort that is so low that the hope that lack of information may provide even a small degree of protection from proliferation is clearly a futile one. http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Nwfaq/Nfaq4.html steve From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 17 07:09:55 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 09:09:55 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | Australian Censorship Legislation Message-ID: <3BF67DC3.48C5C0AF@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/17/0546218.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Sat Nov 17 07:21:28 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 09:21:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: RBL turf wars (was: ABOVE.NET BLOCKING ORBZ!) (fwd) Message-ID: Oh the irony! People are pissed off that someone is censoring the censors! Go above.net! Go!!! They get my vote 100% J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Roger Marquis wrote: > > >Check this out, I can't get to Orbz's website anymore (and I suspect you > > >can't either): > > We can't either. Attached is a letter from a customer forwarded > to our upstream (another above.net victim/ISP). If Above.Net wants > to shed customers like a duck sheds water these filters will surely > have that effect. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sat Nov 17 09:28:57 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 09:28:57 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device Message-ID: <200111171728.fAHHSv468831@mailserver1.hushmail.com> When I was in high school, studying programming, a friend who worked at a weapons lab contractor gave me sample FORTRAN code to study for style. The huge stacks of print out were labled Nuclear Code Library (or something similar). The code comments contained references to cross sections and reaction rates. If I still have the stuff, unlikely, I'll OCR and post. From measl at mfn.org Sat Nov 17 07:36:25 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 09:36:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) In-Reply-To: <62D4BB4A-DB09-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > The list has only 5% of the content it had in its glory years, 1992-95. > And perhaps only 10% of its content in its declining years, 1996-98. > It's now at about half the level of its senile years, 1999-2000. This > past year has been the worst. Agreed, with the notation that we are *all* guilty as charged... > There are many reasons for this decline, discussed as early as 1994. > > Any newbies who think this list is now interesting or exciting has my > sympathy. While the "original content" may be sparse to the point of being a notable event worthy of a note on the calendar, the list continues to serve purposes worthy of it's continuation. For instance, this is without doubt the best of the "I hate {cops, government, other authority figure}" forums (in my perfectly humble hate-group inspired opinion :-). It's also great fun watching Jeff and company pretend to be even dumber than your average @home luser. But the real value here, and on this point I am serious, is the the list is responsible for the actual [political] education of many lurkers. I realized this recently when "shooting the shit" with one of my newer vendors. The team in question was the standard pair of Salesman and Sales Engineer ("SE"). The salesman was one of the most naive people I have *ever* met, while the SE turned out to be a long term (since mid nineties) CP lurker. As a frequent poster here, the SE recognized my name, and we started talking - and the salesguy sat there with his mouth hanging open, stunned at the content of the conversation. That was about three months ago. Last week we met with this team again, and the salesguy, the *naive* one who was anti-gun, anti-drug, pro-whitehouse, etc., has just purchased his first firearm, and begun to take active steps to protect his privacy. It seems he was so fascinated by the conversations between me and the SE, that he did a little homework, read a few hours/days/who-knows worth of older CP archives, and then found jesus so to speak. Yes, the glory days are gone. No, that does not mean we are wasting our time here. > --Tim May -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jerrysz at telusplanet.net Sat Nov 17 08:45:44 2001 From: jerrysz at telusplanet.net (Jerzy Szczypien) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 09:45:44 -0700 Subject: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jürgen A. Erhard Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:51 AM To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: Slashdot | The Return of Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics --pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_12_18:50:31_2001-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Karsten" =3D=3D Karsten M Self writes: Karsten> --Ck22u5fw4m2k6hx2 Karsten> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Karsten> Content-Disposition: inline Karsten> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Karsten> on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:29:03PM -0600, Jim Choate (ravage at s= sz.com) wrote: >> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/06/2028252.shtml Karsten> Big Biz sues helpful guy, and somewhat wins. "Somewhat" is the understatement of the millenium (and I mean *this* millenium!) To wit: Karsten> There are a few other consequences of the settlement Karsten> which are of interest to MathWorld readers. The first Karsten> is that a copyright statement "=3DA9 1999 CRC Press Karsten> LLC" (in addition of the =3DA9 1999-2001 Wolfram Karsten> Research, Inc. notice) now appears at the bottom of Karsten> MathWorld entries that have a corresponding article Karsten> in CRC's printed shapshot. I hope they lose authors and customers like a dog loses fleas when wearing a flea collar. Bye, J --=20 J=FCrgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) MARS http://mars.jerhard.org "Yesterday's the past and tomorrow's the future. Today is a gift -- which is why they call it the present." -- Butterfly --pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_12_18:50:31_2001-1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEABECAAYFAjvwC+8ACgkQN0B+CS56qs2+FQCeNNNjrE9HlJLTK27eOlj+b2bK GPwAnRgK62e6YbSvu8lquAVLGFg1lusO =54Ia -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_12_18:50:31_2001-1-- From jerrysz at telusplanet.net Sat Nov 17 08:45:48 2001 From: jerrysz at telusplanet.net (Jerzy Szczypien) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 09:45:48 -0700 Subject: You Have Been Sent A Halloween Card! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jürgen A. Erhard Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 AM To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: Re: You Have Been Sent A Halloween Card! --pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_12_11:36:23_2001-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Wallstreet" =3D=3D Wallstreet Universe writes: Wallstreet> +>+>+> BURN OFF FAT NOW!!! How? With our proven NEW Wallstreet> fat burning breakthrough product. Fast! Easy! Safe! Wallstreet> Take it off and keep it off. NO Ma Huang, Ephedra, or Wallstreet> guarana. Only valid for United States residents over Wallstreet> 18+ ITYM "Only valid for United States residents with an IQ under 18". Thankfully, there are enough of them. Wallstreet> +>+>+> HALLOWEEN TRIVIA Wallstreet> SIGNS OF A WEREWOLF: [...] >>>>> Long middle finger=20 Like that finger I'm showing you right now? Then I'm a werewolf. Bye, J --=20 J=FCrgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) Invasion! http://invasion.jerhard.org Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org) C> (A)bort (R)etry (I)nfluence with a large hammer --pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_12_11:36:23_2001-1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEABECAAYFAjvvpjEACgkQN0B+CS56qs3JNQCfYCtl5AyqN8vyfZ2ec3IWzl+i ersAoKh2KNtcwxEcJt1WNtUPvYsU1PDy =Kukd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_12_11:36:23_2001-1-- From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sat Nov 17 09:50:13 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 09:50:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: from "baptista@pccf.net" at Nov 17, 2001 06:46:14 AM Message-ID: <200111171750.fAHHoDt21184@artifact.psychedelic.net> Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: > hold on mr. expert. > you hold a sub critical mass in your hand and in a few days you end up > shitting out your guts, lose your hair and die. > so i assume the person who had the opportunity to hold such a critical > mass is now dead. where are you getting your info on what it feels > like? curious george here. The common fissionable isotopes are alpha emitters with half-lives measured in thousands of years. Their rate of decay is miniscule. Alpha radiation, which consists of helium nuclei, can be stopped by a sheet of paper. Plutonium-239, which has a half-life of about 24,000 years, is slightly warm to the touch. Fissionable isotopes with much longer half-lives do not noticibly differ from room temperature. Alpha emitters are life threatening only if ingested. No ones hair is falling out. Really. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 17 10:00:05 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:00:05 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <20011117031012.A17727@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Alternative Subject Name: Decline and Fall: Crypto without politics is just applied number theory This will be a long article. Fair warning. Also, I plan to reply only to folks who make a serious effort to debate. Folks who chime in with inanities or with "Another C-A-C-L rant!" will of course just ignore. I don't expect much discussion, though. For the same "lots of reasons" I mention many times below. Still, I wanted to make these points even if only six of you are worth responding to. On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 12:10 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:31:24PM -0800, Petro wrote: >> Part of the energy in those days was people pushing in to vastly >> new territories, figuring out how to solve the hard problems--and there >> were a whole bunch back then. There are still lots of hard problems, >> but >> they come in dribs and drabs, and often one of these new problems can >> be >> reduced to one or two old problems--which isn't nearly as interesting. > > I may have started reading the list in 1994. To add something to the > above: Also in the early days, folks were still thinking through the > implications of the technologies, the future was a bit sunnier than it > is nowadays, and there weren't quite as many (this may be just wishful > thinking) loserflamers around. In addition, the FBI and Secret Service > and TIGTA and whatnot hadn't been interrogating and arresting list > members. There are many reasons/factors for the decline. Few would argue that the decline has been a many-year process. As I lack the energy or will to write a detailed essay (which is one of the reasons...), I'll summarize a few basic reasons: 1. The newness issue. Even before the list/group started, finding new and amazing implications was so easy that we were able to figure out a bunch of things before the official crypto community noticed them. Early list messages were often about these implications. Hal Finney, Eric Hughes, Duncan Frissell, and a dozen others were all actively debating these implications--years before the "crypto press" started reporting them, years before even apologists for Big Brother started denouncing them. The newness has shifted. I'll come back to this issue again. 2. Fewer infusions of new blood. We had some good infusions of new blood in the 1993-95 period, including people like Lucky Green, Declan McCullagh, and Greg Broiles. In the past couple of years, fewer creative contributors have arrived. We had a guy from Germany, whose name I have spaced out on, but he showed up at ZKS (another point I will get to in a moment) and hasn't been active on the list in a long while. In the last year or two, David Molnar stands out as a new and innovative contributor, but I believe his is now involved in a start up in NYC and so he doesn't post here often anymore. A couple of apologists for Big Brother have arrived (George at Orwellian, whom I am tentatively assuming is the same as the frequent Nomen Nescio user: a leftie who rants about the evils of ideas here), a couple of agent provocateurs have arrived, and several infantile flamers are still here. [Note: Related to this point and the one following below, we had a _huge_ number of students and grad students active on the list in the early years. "Wired" did a big piece on Cypherpunks in their second issue, and "Wired" was still cool in those years. A surge of subscribers hit the list in 1993. And Clipper was much in the news. Many of those students contributed provocative, anarchist-leaning ideas. Many went on to get jobs in industry, even in crypto and security. Some went to Microsoft (Matt Tomlinson, I believe, and possibly Wei Dai, though I could be wrong), some went to Netscape, some to RSA, and so on.] 3. The commercialization of crypto. This has been a plus and a minus. On the plus side, several startup companies have drawn heavily from former (or lurking) list members, including C2Net, Digicash, PGP, RSA and Verisign, security consulting companies in the Bay Area, Zero Knowledge, and the security departments of leading dot com and Net companies. Even Mojo Nation, which had about half a dozen list members in it--not much being heard from it now. (Remember when three members of the same family were on the list and two of them were essentially Netscape's security department! Remember when at least three key list members worked for Digicash?) The ZKS issue alone took half a dozen of our most significant contributors off the list (for various obvious reasons), including Ian Goldberg, both Adams (Back and Shostack), and some others. And when ZKS recast itself a year or so ago as some kind of "consulting company" (??) and then when they recently dropped the Freedom remailer/proxy service, things took another steep decline. Even if these former list members end up leaving ZKS, as would seem likely, I doubt they'll return to our list.) The effects of the commercialization were manyfold (or is it manifold?) and deserve an entire essay, but here are a few of them: a) Cypherpunks physical meetings (second Saturday of each month, held in the South Bay 1992-95, held all around the Bay Area after that) became more corporate-focused. Guys at companies often recruited. A kind of rolling job fair. b) The projects discussed started being more and more about what some particular company was doing c) I believe some people are much less willing to discuss radical implications and ideas when they think future employers may be reading, or may have access to their posts through search engines. It may be coincidental, but the beginning of the real decline of the list happened at just about the same time the Web was becoming ubiquitous (which has other implications, mentioned later) and as search engines like Deja News and Alta Vista made it obvious that one's words on the list would echo forever. d) Siphoning of energy. Not a bad thing, but the commercialization of crypto definitely meant that many long-range projects were shifted to short-range. Depressingly, most of the short-range efforts never really went very far. (Between the dot com crash and other things, all we really have is what we had in 1992: basic crypto and signatures.) e) The mess with PGP. At one point, probably a dozen list members worked at PGP, and we often heard updates from them on new versions. (One of those pluses as well as minuses. A plus that PGP was expanding, and that usage was increasing, but a minus because all it really was basic encryption stuff, so it was fairly boring to spend meetings discussing the details of a version update.) The transfer of PGP to NAI further confused things, and now there are probably fewer PGP users than in 1996. (Multiple versions, an OpenPGP version, a GPG effort, Zimmermann at Hushmail, and NAI saying they plan to demphasize PGP....already a moot point.) [Note: There was a period when using PGP was "cool." Lots of digerati were using it, playing with it. It showed up on "Wired"'s "hot" list. This has changed. Lots of reasons.] 4. The discrediting of "politics." After the first heady year or two of discussing digital money, data havens, dead drops, black nets, tax avoidance, colonization of cyberspace, and so on, some voices began to argue against talking politics. To be sure, the list had always been focused on the "exploitation of crypto for meta-political purposes." Mundane politics about left vs. right was not interesting to most of us. Yes, the list had a strong libertarian focus, but so does much of the Net and so does much of the computer community (with also a lefty/Green/ecobabble contingent out there, though not on this list). Why this is so should not surprise anyone. The discrediting of politics was correlated to the formation of alternative lists. Lewis McCarthy started a moderated list called "Coderpunks" in which only code and programming techniques was to be discussed. Perry Metger started a moderated list called "Cryptography." Some of the active participants in Cypherpunks did most of their posting on those lists...let a thousand flowers bloom and all. I chose not to subscribe to those lists for a couple of reasons. First, I hate moderated lists where some satrap decides what is OK for me to talk about and what is not. Second, I am much less interested in the C++ coding of Rijndael than I am in discussing digital money and quasi-political issues touching on economics, public policy, social repudiation and reputation issues, etc. In my view, crypto without politics is just applied number theory. The discrediting is even happening on the Cypherpunks list. It is deeply ironic that people who have never contributed an innovative idea, poitical or technical, are hectoring us that "Cypherpunks write code!" (Having been involved since the Ur-Cypherpunk days, I know precisely what that slogan means, and it _doesn't_ mean what many think it means.) 5. The resurgence of politics and law. Strangely, despite the above discrediting, politics and law became _more_ of the focus of the list! How could that be? Here's a partial list: Communications Decency Act, the Bernstein case, crypto export laws, ITAR, European plans to regulate crypto, Napster, copyright, the DMCA, and on and on. Despite the "Cypherpunks write code!" pseudo-mantra, more and more physical meetings were devoted to hearing from various spokeslawyers representing the EFF, EPIC, CDT, and other lobbying/litigating firms. More and more list members muttered about going to law school...and some did. (Not to besmirch the reputation of Greg Broiles, who was already well-along in law school before beginning to contribute many fine On to another major, possibly _the_ major, factor: 5. The boredom factor. As Declan and Petro have noted, the ideas are not new. The same reasons that made the 1992-94 period so heady also mean that later developments are usually just revisitations or rediscoveries of the "nuggets" found in the early years. This is like any new field: the early pioneers find gems and nuggest lying on the ground, lots of low-hanging fruit. (To mix some metaphors.) Later arrivals find the low-hanging fruit gone, the richest veins of ore already mined. (I have not given up. There are amazing things yet to be done. I had a stimulating discussion with some computer pioneers last weekend and am redoubling my own efforts in my "ontology" project I have occasionally mentioned.) The "read the archives!" advice often given, especially by me, is only to be expected. When literally tens of thousands of articles, some of them very long and detailed, have already been written on core topics, why should any of the "old-timers" spend an hour writing an essay to educate a newbie who is unwilling to even spend a few minutes with Google looking for already-written articles? (And many of the newcomers are shockingly ignorant of even the basic definitions and ideas, ones that have been written about in full-length articles. My own chapter-length essays outline the basics and have been included in recent books like "Building-In Big Brother" (Ludlow), "Crypto Anarchy, Cyberstates and Pirate Utopias" (also Ludlow), and the forthcoming "True Names and the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier" (Vinge, Frenkel, others). Any search on the keywords so common on our list will turn up full-length articles, as well as the "Cyphernomicon" mega-FAQ I spent (wasted?) about a year of my life working on.) 6. The failure to get true digital money. Call it what you like, "digital cash" or "ecash" or even one of Hettinga's pet names, but the fact is that for both political and technical reasons we don't have digital cash. This has ripple effects for nearly all of the constructs which depend on digital money: data havens, good remailers, black nets, beacons, and of course for certain sociopolitical implications of untraceable transactions. Without this basic building block, we are left just with the "privacy" stuff...and the privacy stuff is both fairly boring and at the same time wrapped-up in legal/political baggage about secrecy, hiding things, etc. Boring! Why digital money has not happened is still an interesting topic to discuss. I described the two axes of "value of untraceability" versus "cost of untraceability" in an article I wrote a few months ago. I characterized the "millicent ghetto" that most companies have concentrated on, and the fallacy of the "one size fits all" pricing models. Now, given the events of 911 and the rush to control the Net and to impose new and unconstitutional limitations on what people can do with their own money, the likelihood of a quasi-visible digital money operation like Mark Twain Bank setting up seems to be nil. Money-laundering laws, and the attempted crackdowns on "hawalah" exchanges, will mean any digital cash effort will have to be done beyond the margins of the law. Maybe for something with no identifiable nexus, something beyond even what Gnutella and Freenet are doing. Beyond Morpheus/Music City, beyond Mojo Nation, beyond _any_ of the current P2P efforts. (By the way, the only book that I know of on Peer-to-Peer computing has references to the pioneering role that Cypherpunks played, in remailers, in screen-saver code crackers, etc. Look to the archives from 1992-94 and one will see most of the P2P issues covered, from the point of view of distributed, agoric models, black markets, etc. My own BlackNet, 1988, is obviously a P2P model.) This failure to get workable untraceable digital cash (true 2-way untraceable, not the bastardized, banker-friendly, government-friendly one-way untraceable form) is the _deep_ reason things are stagnating. And we are not alone... "How to make money off of these ideas" is the fundamental reason the dot com crash happened. Absent efficient digital payment systems, and absent strong cryptographic constructs to build cyberspace structures, just about the only working model for funding all of these dot com things was "online advertising." That, coupled with scads of companies all figuring they would dominate their markets. I'm concentrating here on the online digital services companies, not so much the "clicks and mortar" companies trying to sell dog food over the Net (yeah, the pets.com and boo.com companies failed, but in their cases the Net was just another communications medium for basically a mail-order or phone-order business). More interesting are why the crypto-related companies are failing. People just aren't paying for digital signatures, encryption, and other "Cypherpunkish" things. This doesn't surprise me at all. But, I see that I am drifting away from my intended brief listing of reasons for the decline and am instead moving into something that should be saved for another article. In closing, the long-term prospects for our ideas are still bright. The "degrees of freedom" (multiple senses) still mean that crypto anarchy will likely triumph over central control. But we probably are facing a "crypto winter" lasting at least 5 years, and maybe much longer. The moves to expand wiretapping and surveillance, the Carnivore boxes, the rapid move to reduce civil liberties in the wake of 911, the calls by various European and Asian countries to crack down on use of the Net, and the draconian restrictions on money....all of these things will make it very difficult to establish Cypherpunks technologies. Maybe a collapse will come, maybe P2P will sneak these ideas in through the back door (*). (* as might well have happened sooner had Napster _started_ in a distributed, no nexus sort of way instead of starting as a central file server with a huge "Sue me!" sign painted on the roof of their San Mateo offices) The thing I would advise folks to do is to not think about getting rich. Those who lust after the riches of an IPO for their Digital Signature Datawhack, Inc. startup are probably heading for crushing disapppointment. "Do what you love and the money will follow" is still good advice. And working on the interesting stuff, even if it doesn't appear to be "commercial," will probably be where the commercial things of ten years from now come from. There are so many examples of this from past years that I can't begin to list them here. Well, now I'm again moving afield into career advice, so I'll stop here. Best wishes, --Tim May "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound" From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sat Nov 17 10:14:46 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:14:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <3BF69FE9.5D3CE0EE@mozcom.com> from "F. Marc de Piolenc" at Nov 18, 2001 01:35:37 AM Message-ID: <200111171814.fAHIEkE21235@artifact.psychedelic.net> F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Consider that nuclear weapons could not be built if the fissiles had > high rates of spontaneous decay - the stuff would detonate prematurely, > resulting in a fizzle. That, incidentally, is why plutonium cannot be > used in a gun-type device - two isotopes are inevitably present, one of > which (forgot the mass number, but you can look that up, too) has a > spontaneous decay rate that is too high for the (relatively) slow > assembly rate of a gun. Weapons grade plutonium contains less than 7% of the non-fissile isotope plutonium-240. This is created if you leave the plutonium-239 in the reactor after it is formed, and it manages to absorb an additional neutron. Small amounts of higher numbered plutonium isotopes are also created by the same process. For this reason, spent fuel from power reactors is not a suitable source of weapons grade plutonium, although it is theoretically possible to build a bomb from reactor grade plutonium if you use enough of it. Bear in mind you will have big thermal problems from short-lived plutonium isotopes if that you employ plutonium from spent fuel, as well as problems from neutrons getting soaked up by non-productive species. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sat Nov 17 10:46:41 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:46:41 -0800 Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security Message-ID: <200111171846.fAHIkfv19229@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Walk into an airport in baggy pants with powdered expolosives in a leg bag which can slowly be dispersed as you walk (perhaps controlled by some sort of string control like POWs scattered excavated soil in "The Great Escape"). After walking around in the lobby it should soon be tracked to the security checkpoints and interfere with any current swab or automated detection methods. From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 17 10:51:18 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:51:18 -0800 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <15F971E8-DB8C-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 12:48 PM, John Young wrote: > If you're over 30-35 all your best stuff was done in the old > days. After that age you may think you're capable of good > work but that's just the voice of experience taking the place This depends on whether one is entering a new field, amongst other things. And it depends on the field. Richard Feynman, for example, was innovating in many areas well into his 60s. > Newbies scare the shit of of oldies, seeing in them > certain disrespect, ridicule, erasure. Even when > newbies try their damnest to learn from the oldies > the venerable farts can't bear to be used as > stepping stones -- as if they never did that, and > are not now robbing the newbies under guise of > disdaining them. There's a difference between newbies when a field is new and newbies when a field is old. When the Cypherpunks list started, many of us/them were newbies, regardless of our clock ages. (I was 40 in 1992, thus either disputing or reinforcing your "30-35" point, depending on your outlook.) Some newbies to our list have contributed important ideas. I remember when Lucky Green first started appearing, circa 1994-5. He went from having little background to being one of our most important essayists and actual crypto company contributors. And there's David Molnar, a student at Princeton when he arrived. It's true that I've seen nothing but "Look at me, I'm such a smart grad student!" comments from some of our recent newbies. And comments from lawyer newbies and law student newbies. > Meanwhile the Net geezers are agoing sclerotic > heading boards and advisory panels, doing nothing > challenging, burnishing each others' reputations, > fencing what they thieve from students and prowling > the Net for easy pickings. True for some, not for others. I mentioned Feynman. John von Neumann was another. Many examples of people contributing more or less continuously into late life. The "move into management" is common in all industries, all institutions, so many of them end up sitting on panels and boards, attending special events, and genearlly being distracted from the singlemindedness they could have in their 20s. One of my long-term programming heroes is Dan Ingalls, the guy who invented BitBlt (for windowing systems) and did most of the actual development of Smalltalk. He's still in the thick of things and is contributing mightily. I recently had a chance to spend a few days with him and with other pioneers (Don Knuth, Gordon Bell, John McCarthy, etc.) and they are still doing creative things. Admittedly, for fundamental ontological reasons, the things that made their careers when they were young ("history gets written by the winners") were more earth-shaking than the things they are now doing. I say "ontological" because this is wired-into the structure of how we perceive the world--most people never make any substantial discoveries, a few make one discovery, and far fewer make more than one. For those who haven't made a significant contribution by age 30 or 35, they probably get shuffled off into jobs where future contributions are even less likely. So we tend to see precisely those people who contributed early on, sometimes more than once. --Tim May "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." --John Stuart Mill From sandfort at mindspring.com Sat Nov 17 10:57:38 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:57:38 -0800 Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security In-Reply-To: <200111171846.fAHIkfv19229@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security > > Walk into an airport in baggy pants with > powdered expolosives in a leg bag which > can slowly be dispersed as you walk... Airport chemical "sniffers" apparently look for the signature of nitrogen compounds, not "explosives," per se. I've often wondered how many weekend gardeners have gotten hassled and delayed because of trace amounts of ammonia-based fertilizers on their person and effects. If you plan to fly, be sure to wash your hands thoroughly before heading out for the airport if you have been shoot, gardening or house cleaning. S a n d y From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Nov 17 11:02:12 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:02:12 -0800 Subject: Monkeywrenching In-Reply-To: References: <20011116162513.B26012@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BF643B4.32624.D595B9@localhost> -- On 16 Nov 2001, at 16:50, Aimee Farr wrote: > I meant it in the sense that it sounds like they are > talking about criminal defense lawyers. > > (i.e., "make numerous references to the US Constitution," > "defenders," ....etc-etc.) Criminal defense has already been criminalized in hard to enforce laws such as the drug laws, with a various lawyers being busted on charges of providing competent and relevant defense for the accused. Government propaganda is already appearing to justify such punishment. While channel surfing I saw a fictional show about a bunch of lawyers who are in danger of being disbarred for taking drug traffickers as clients, and they are suffering orgasms of liberal guilt about how much they deserve punishment for accepting such terrible clients. Presumably it is still OK for the moment to defend rapists and murderers. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG bHgDORB62aC6HjcAremd3dhdRe6M9c83vYRND2Zh 45QXPQhYmXU9sf6mOHbk16N+w5/9n5dTxqbgu8Ml3 From citizenq at hushmail.com Sat Nov 17 11:04:20 2001 From: citizenq at hushmail.com (citizenq at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:04:20 -0800 Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security Message-ID: <200111171904.fAHJ4Kw68168@mailserver1.hushmail.com> How useful. That'll really, I mean REALLY show 'em who's boss, as they shut the airport down and strand thousands of hapless travelers who I am sure will really understand your idiotic point. Which is ... ? Shit, all it takes is for you to put on some sneakers, run rapidly past the security checkpoint(s), perhaps open an alarmed door on your way out to the tarmac. Do it at a hub, shut down everything. Doesn't take anything as stupidly exotic as powdered explosive in your pantyhose, idiot. >Walk into an airport in baggy pants with powdered expolosives in a leg bag >which can slowly be dispersed as you walk (perhaps controlled by some sort of >string control like POWs scattered excavated soil in "The Great Escape"). >After walking around in the lobby it should soon be tracked to the security >checkpoints and interfere with any current swab or automated detection methods. From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Sat Nov 17 11:50:03 2001 From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:50:03 -0800 Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E36559B@MISSERVER> Last year I used a duffel bag as a carry-on that I occasionally use to transport firearms. I was pulled out of line at the checkpoint and they spent about 10 minutes swabbing the bag and examining it before I was allowed to board the plane. -----Original Message----- From: Sandy Sandfort [mailto:sandfort at mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:58 AM To: cypherpunks at lne.com Subject: RE: Monkeywrenching airport security keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security > > Walk into an airport in baggy pants with > powdered expolosives in a leg bag which > can slowly be dispersed as you walk... Airport chemical "sniffers" apparently look for the signature of nitrogen compounds, not "explosives," per se. I've often wondered how many weekend gardeners have gotten hassled and delayed because of trace amounts of ammonia-based fertilizers on their person and effects. If you plan to fly, be sure to wash your hands thoroughly before heading out for the airport if you have been shoot, gardening or house cleaning. S a n d y From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Nov 17 12:47:45 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:47:45 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: References: <20011117031012.A17727@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BF65C71.4.13634C8@localhost> -- On 17 Nov 2001, at 10:00, Tim May wrote: > 6. The failure to get true digital money. Call it what you > like, "digital cash" or "ecash" or even one of Hettinga's > pet names, but the fact is that for both political and > technical reasons we don't have digital cash. This has > ripple effects for nearly all of the constructs which > depend on digital money: data havens, good remailers, black > nets, beacons, and of course for certain sociopolitical > implications of untraceable transactions. > > Without this basic building block, we are left just with > the "privacy" stuff...and the privacy stuff is both fairly > boring and at the same time wrapped-up in legal/political > baggage about secrecy, hiding things, etc. Boring! I think this is the central key problem. To establish any medium of exchange, one faces an enormous critical mass problem, as the stupendous expenditures by paypal and its competitors demonstrate. One also faces legal obstacles, due to both money laundering laws,and the fact that the banks everywhere have a government enforced cartel. Finally, one enormous factor that we all failed to appreciate -- habit and trust. Note the curious success of e-gold, presumably because of the mystique of gold and the mystique of full reserve banking. This enormous obstacle means that people will pick up very slowly on digital currencies. Thus paypal and arguably e-gold have both achieved critical mass, but, contrary to our expectations, this has not led to explosive growth. > Why digital money has not happened is still an interesting > topic to discuss. I described the two axes of "value of > untraceability" versus "cost of untraceability" in an > article I wrote a few months ago. I characterized the > "millicent ghetto" that most companies have concentrated > on, and the fallacy of the "one size fits all" pricing > models. I am unaware of any micropayment scheme that made it convenient, private, and safe, to buy images by the image and video by the minute. Indeed digicash seemed to attempt to specifically prohibit such use of their technology. A number of schemes were floated that would have and should have made such capability available but I am unaware of any of them that actually worked. All seemed to focus on uncontroversial -- and thus unsaleable -- content. > Now, given the events of 911 and the rush to control the > Net and to impose new and unconstitutional limitations on > what people can do with their own money, the likelihood of > a quasi-visible digital money operation like Mark Twain > Bank setting up seems to be nil. Again, the 911 laws would not prohibit a micropayment program -- dirty pictures by the nickel, and large payment programs have always been illegal. Any attempt to deliver a large payment program would always have had to have been haven based. > This failure to get workable untraceable digital cash (true > 2-way untraceable, not the bastardized, banker-friendly, > government-friendly one-way untraceable form) is the _deep_ > reason things are stagnating. Yes. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG HOx9L47PMs1L4SxTDlBHO4SY569vyFsjGVMHOCbQ 4Kt41DS+dUWj0nUq/883VNYxN964xIuKXrXZMo5/H From jya at pipeline.com Sat Nov 17 12:48:07 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:48:07 -0800 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) In-Reply-To: <200111170429.XAA25891@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: If you're over 30-35 all your best stuff was done in the old days. After that age you may think you're capable of good work but that's just the voice of experience taking the place of genuine challenge when you have to solve problems to survive rather than steal from youngsters and call it your own or worse, claim it was stolen from you. The older you get the more you succumb to the narcotic of experience, and you really think you a smart son of a bitch rather than a nodding dopehead dreaming of the glory days. But nothing narcotizes like success except having no need to deal with the unexpected. That's why loners and hermits have it right, hate the world, shut out all attempts to socialize, concoct deeply satisfying explanations for why the solitary lifestyle is a winner rather than a loser. Attack anybody who disturbs your fantasy. Avoid mirrors, families, any reminder of what you used to be before climbing up into your dark hole of self-satisfaction. This is a voice of experience screaming at you the truth you dumb motherfucker, you, you, newbie. Newbies scare the shit of of oldies, seeing in them certain disrespect, ridicule, erasure. Even when newbies try their damnest to learn from the oldies the venerable farts can't bear to be used as stepping stones -- as if they never did that, and are not now robbing the newbies under guise of disdaining them. Best thing about cpunks is nobody is over 30-35. Most way healthier than that or wisely pretend to be. Meanwhile the Net geezers are agoing sclerotic heading boards and advisory panels, doing nothing challenging, burnishing each others' reputations, fencing what they thieve from students and prowling the Net for easy pickings. Mostly, though, checking on the times their names are cited. Boosting that with neat tools purpose-built for backdating and touching up wild-age rants into golden-age nuggets. From funnymoney.10 at reply.pm0.net Sat Nov 17 13:11:06 2001 From: funnymoney.10 at reply.pm0.net (FunnyMoney) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:11:06 PST Subject: $150 Instant Bonus!! Message-ID: <200111180323.DAA55251@s0223.pm0.net> OnLuck Casino OnLuck Casino is offering an amazing 100% Match Bonus to all new players who sign up now! Receive $150 FREE! OnLuck Casino brings stunning action and exotic casino games to your desktop 24 hours a day.\xa0 Experience the most realistic gaming action from the comfort of your own home, while playing in a secure, safe environment. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 17831 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alphabeta121 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 17 13:36:32 2001 From: alphabeta121 at hotmail.com (alphabeta121) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:36:32 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter References: Message-ID: what does C-A-C-L stand for? alpha ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:00 AM Subject: CDR: The Crypto Winter > Alternative Subject Name: Decline and Fall: Crypto without politics is > just applied number theory > > This will be a long article. Fair warning. > > Also, I plan to reply only to folks who make a serious effort to debate. > Folks who chime in with inanities or with "Another C-A-C-L rant!" will > of course just ignore. I don't expect much discussion, though. For the > same "lots of reasons" I mention many times below. Still, I wanted to > make these points even if only six of you are worth responding to. > > > On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 12:10 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:31:24PM -0800, Petro wrote: > >> Part of the energy in those days was people pushing in to vastly > >> new territories, figuring out how to solve the hard problems--and there > >> were a whole bunch back then. There are still lots of hard problems, > >> but > >> they come in dribs and drabs, and often one of these new problems can > >> be > >> reduced to one or two old problems--which isn't nearly as interesting. > > > > I may have started reading the list in 1994. To add something to the > > above: Also in the early days, folks were still thinking through the > > implications of the technologies, the future was a bit sunnier than it > > is nowadays, and there weren't quite as many (this may be just wishful > > thinking) loserflamers around. In addition, the FBI and Secret Service > > and TIGTA and whatnot hadn't been interrogating and arresting list > > members. > > There are many reasons/factors for the decline. Few would argue that the > decline has been a many-year process. As I lack the energy or will to > write a detailed essay (which is one of the reasons...), I'll summarize > a few basic reasons: > > 1. The newness issue. Even before the list/group started, finding new > and amazing implications was so easy that we were able to figure out a > bunch of things before the official crypto community noticed them. Early > list messages were often about these implications. Hal Finney, Eric > Hughes, Duncan Frissell, and a dozen others were all actively debating > these implications--years before the "crypto press" started reporting > them, years before even apologists for Big Brother started denouncing > them. The newness has shifted. I'll come back to this issue again. > > 2. Fewer infusions of new blood. We had some good infusions of new blood > in the 1993-95 period, including people like Lucky Green, Declan > McCullagh, and Greg Broiles. In the past couple of years, fewer creative > contributors have arrived. We had a guy from Germany, whose name I have > spaced out on, but he showed up at ZKS (another point I will get to in a > moment) and hasn't been active on the list in a long while. In the last > year or two, David Molnar stands out as a new and innovative > contributor, but I believe his is now involved in a start up in NYC and > so he doesn't post here often anymore. > > A couple of apologists for Big Brother have arrived (George at Orwellian, > whom I am tentatively assuming is the same as the frequent Nomen Nescio > user: a leftie who rants about the evils of ideas here), a couple of > agent provocateurs have arrived, and several infantile flamers are still > here. > > [Note: Related to this point and the one following below, we had a > _huge_ number of students and grad students active on the list in the > early years. "Wired" did a big piece on Cypherpunks in their second > issue, and "Wired" was still cool in those years. A surge of subscribers > hit the list in 1993. And Clipper was much in the news. Many of those > students contributed provocative, anarchist-leaning ideas. Many went on > to get jobs in industry, even in crypto and security. Some went to > Microsoft (Matt Tomlinson, I believe, and possibly Wei Dai, though I > could be wrong), some went to Netscape, some to RSA, and so on.] > > 3. The commercialization of crypto. This has been a plus and a minus. On > the plus side, several startup companies have drawn heavily from former > (or lurking) list members, including C2Net, Digicash, PGP, RSA and > Verisign, security consulting companies in the Bay Area, Zero Knowledge, > and the security departments of leading dot com and Net companies. Even > Mojo Nation, which had about half a dozen list members in it--not much > being heard from it now. > > (Remember when three members of the same family were on the list and two > of them were essentially Netscape's security department! Remember when > at least three key list members worked for Digicash?) The ZKS issue > alone took half a dozen of our most significant contributors off the > list (for various obvious reasons), including Ian Goldberg, both Adams > (Back and Shostack), and some others. And when ZKS recast itself a year > or so ago as some kind of "consulting company" (??) and then when they > recently dropped the Freedom remailer/proxy service, things took another > steep decline. Even if these former list members end up leaving ZKS, as > would seem likely, I doubt they'll return to our list.) > > The effects of the commercialization were manyfold (or is it manifold?) > and deserve an entire essay, but here are a few of them: > > a) Cypherpunks physical meetings (second Saturday of each month, held in > the South Bay 1992-95, held all around the Bay Area after that) became > more corporate-focused. Guys at companies often recruited. A kind of > rolling job fair. > > b) The projects discussed started being more and more about what some > particular company was doing > > c) I believe some people are much less willing to discuss radical > implications and ideas when they think future employers may be reading, > or may have access to their posts through search engines. It may be > coincidental, but the beginning of the real decline of the list happened > at just about the same time the Web was becoming ubiquitous (which has > other implications, mentioned later) and as search engines like Deja > News and Alta Vista made it obvious that one's words on the list would > echo forever. > > d) Siphoning of energy. Not a bad thing, but the commercialization of > crypto definitely meant that many long-range projects were shifted to > short-range. Depressingly, most of the short-range efforts never really > went very far. (Between the dot com crash and other things, all we > really have is what we had in 1992: basic crypto and signatures.) > > e) The mess with PGP. At one point, probably a dozen list members worked > at PGP, and we often heard updates from them on new versions. (One of > those pluses as well as minuses. A plus that PGP was expanding, and that > usage was increasing, but a minus because all it really was basic > encryption stuff, so it was fairly boring to spend meetings discussing > the details of a version update.) The transfer of PGP to NAI further > confused things, and now there are probably fewer PGP users than in > 1996. (Multiple versions, an OpenPGP version, a GPG effort, Zimmermann > at Hushmail, and NAI saying they plan to demphasize PGP....already a > moot point.) > > [Note: There was a period when using PGP was "cool." Lots of digerati > were using it, playing with it. It showed up on "Wired"'s "hot" list. > This has changed. Lots of reasons.] > > 4. The discrediting of "politics." After the first heady year or two of > discussing digital money, data havens, dead drops, black nets, tax > avoidance, colonization of cyberspace, and so on, some voices began to > argue against talking politics. To be sure, the list had always been > focused on the "exploitation of crypto for meta-political purposes." > Mundane politics about left vs. right was not interesting to most of us. > Yes, the list had a strong libertarian focus, but so does much of the > Net and so does much of the computer community (with also a > lefty/Green/ecobabble contingent out there, though not on this list). > Why this is so should not surprise anyone. > > The discrediting of politics was correlated to the formation of > alternative lists. Lewis McCarthy started a moderated list called > "Coderpunks" in which only code and programming techniques was to be > discussed. Perry Metger started a moderated list called "Cryptography." > Some of the active participants in Cypherpunks did most of their posting > on those lists...let a thousand flowers bloom and all. I chose not to > subscribe to those lists for a couple of reasons. First, I hate > moderated lists where some satrap decides what is OK for me to talk > about and what is not. Second, I am much less interested in the C++ > coding of Rijndael than I am in discussing digital money and > quasi-political issues touching on economics, public policy, social > repudiation and reputation issues, etc. In my view, crypto without > politics is just applied number theory. > > The discrediting is even happening on the Cypherpunks list. It is deeply > ironic that people who have never contributed an innovative idea, > poitical or technical, are hectoring us that "Cypherpunks write code!" > (Having been involved since the Ur-Cypherpunk days, I know precisely > what that slogan means, and it _doesn't_ mean what many think it means.) > > 5. The resurgence of politics and law. Strangely, despite the above > discrediting, politics and law became _more_ of the focus of the list! > How could that be? Here's a partial list: Communications Decency Act, > the Bernstein case, crypto export laws, ITAR, European plans to regulate > crypto, Napster, copyright, the DMCA, and on and on. Despite the > "Cypherpunks write code!" pseudo-mantra, more and more physical meetings > were devoted to hearing from various spokeslawyers representing the EFF, > EPIC, CDT, and other lobbying/litigating firms. More and more list > members muttered about going to law school...and some did. > > (Not to besmirch the reputation of Greg Broiles, who was already > well-along in law school before beginning to contribute many fine > > On to another major, possibly _the_ major, factor: > > 5. The boredom factor. As Declan and Petro have noted, the ideas are not > new. The same reasons that made the 1992-94 period so heady also mean > that later developments are usually just revisitations or rediscoveries > of the "nuggets" found in the early years. This is like any new field: > the early pioneers find gems and nuggest lying on the ground, lots of > low-hanging fruit. (To mix some metaphors.) Later arrivals find the > low-hanging fruit gone, the richest veins of ore already mined. > > (I have not given up. There are amazing things yet to be done. I had a > stimulating discussion with some computer pioneers last weekend and am > redoubling my own efforts in my "ontology" project I have occasionally > mentioned.) > > The "read the archives!" advice often given, especially by me, is only > to be expected. When literally tens of thousands of articles, some of > them very long and detailed, have already been written on core topics, > why should any of the "old-timers" spend an hour writing an essay to > educate a newbie who is unwilling to even spend a few minutes with > Google looking for already-written articles? > > (And many of the newcomers are shockingly ignorant of even the basic > definitions and ideas, ones that have been written about in full-length > articles. My own chapter-length essays outline the basics and have been > included in recent books like "Building-In Big Brother" (Ludlow), > "Crypto Anarchy, Cyberstates and Pirate Utopias" (also Ludlow), and the > forthcoming "True Names and the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier" > (Vinge, Frenkel, others). Any search on the keywords so common on our > list will turn up full-length articles, as well as the "Cyphernomicon" > mega-FAQ I spent (wasted?) about a year of my life working on.) > > 6. The failure to get true digital money. Call it what you like, > "digital cash" or "ecash" or even one of Hettinga's pet names, but the > fact is that for both political and technical reasons we don't have > digital cash. This has ripple effects for nearly all of the constructs > which depend on digital money: data havens, good remailers, black nets, > beacons, and of course for certain sociopolitical implications of > untraceable transactions. > > Without this basic building block, we are left just with the "privacy" > stuff...and the privacy stuff is both fairly boring and at the same time > wrapped-up in legal/political baggage about secrecy, hiding things, etc. > Boring! > > Why digital money has not happened is still an interesting topic to > discuss. I described the two axes of "value of untraceability" versus > "cost of untraceability" in an article I wrote a few months ago. I > characterized the "millicent ghetto" that most companies have > concentrated on, and the fallacy of the "one size fits all" pricing > models. > > Now, given the events of 911 and the rush to control the Net and to > impose new and unconstitutional limitations on what people can do with > their own money, the likelihood of a quasi-visible digital money > operation like Mark Twain Bank setting up seems to be nil. > > Money-laundering laws, and the attempted crackdowns on "hawalah" > exchanges, will mean any digital cash effort will have to be done beyond > the margins of the law. Maybe for something with no identifiable nexus, > something beyond even what Gnutella and Freenet are doing. Beyond > Morpheus/Music City, beyond Mojo Nation, beyond _any_ of the current P2P > efforts. (By the way, the only book that I know of on Peer-to-Peer > computing has references to the pioneering role that Cypherpunks played, > in remailers, in screen-saver code crackers, etc. Look to the archives > from 1992-94 and one will see most of the P2P issues covered, from the > point of view of distributed, agoric models, black markets, etc. My own > BlackNet, 1988, is obviously a P2P model.) > > This failure to get workable untraceable digital cash (true 2-way > untraceable, not the bastardized, banker-friendly, government-friendly > one-way untraceable form) is the _deep_ reason things are stagnating. > > And we are not alone... > > "How to make money off of these ideas" is the fundamental reason the dot > com crash happened. Absent efficient digital payment systems, and absent > strong cryptographic constructs to build cyberspace structures, just > about the only working model for funding all of these dot com things was > "online advertising." That, coupled with scads of companies all > figuring they would dominate their markets. > > I'm concentrating here on the online digital services companies, not so > much the "clicks and mortar" companies trying to sell dog food over the > Net (yeah, the pets.com and boo.com companies failed, but in their cases > the Net was just another communications medium for basically a > mail-order or phone-order business). More interesting are why the > crypto-related companies are failing. People just aren't paying for > digital signatures, encryption, and other "Cypherpunkish" things. > > This doesn't surprise me at all. But, I see that I am drifting away from > my intended brief listing of reasons for the decline and am instead > moving into something that should be saved for another article. > > In closing, the long-term prospects for our ideas are still bright. The > "degrees of freedom" (multiple senses) still mean that crypto anarchy > will likely triumph over central control. But we probably are facing a > "crypto winter" lasting at least 5 years, and maybe much longer. The > moves to expand wiretapping and surveillance, the Carnivore boxes, the > rapid move to reduce civil liberties in the wake of 911, the calls by > various European and Asian countries to crack down on use of the Net, > and the draconian restrictions on money....all of these things will make > it very difficult to establish Cypherpunks technologies. > > Maybe a collapse will come, maybe P2P will sneak these ideas in through > the back door (*). > > (* as might well have happened sooner had Napster _started_ in a > distributed, no nexus sort of way instead of starting as a central file > server with a huge "Sue me!" sign painted on the roof of their San Mateo > offices) > > The thing I would advise folks to do is to not think about getting rich. > Those who lust after the riches of an IPO for their Digital Signature > Datawhack, Inc. startup are probably heading for crushing > disapppointment. "Do what you love and the money will follow" is still > good advice. > > And working on the interesting stuff, even if it doesn't appear to be > "commercial," will probably be where the commercial things of ten years > from now come from. There are so many examples of this from past years > that I can't begin to list them here. > > Well, now I'm again moving afield into career advice, so I'll stop here. > > Best wishes, > > > --Tim May > "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and > strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman > explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound" > > From sandfort at mindspring.com Sat Nov 17 13:45:24 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:45:24 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: alphabeta121 asked, > what does C-A-C-L stand for? Nothing really. It's Inchoate's blanket term for the several loosely related free market theories/movements. It's an intellectually bankrupt grouping. It's sort of like saying "commie" instead of differentiating between communism, Fabian socialism, liberalism, populism, the left, progressives, etc. You can safely ignore it. S a n d y From kmself at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 17 15:15:08 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:15:08 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: ; from alphabeta121@hotmail.com on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:36:32PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011117151508.B7045@navel.introspect> on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:36:32PM -0800, alphabeta121 (alphabeta121 at hotmail.com) wrote: > what does C-A-C-L stand for? Crypto-Anarcho Capitalist Libertarian, per archives. Shorthand for a common, if not prevailing, political viewpoint among active listmembers. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kmself at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 17 15:29:04 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:29:04 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <866B2EE1-DB34-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net>; from tcmay@got.net on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:24:31AM -0800 References: <866B2EE1-DB34-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011117152904.C7045@navel.introspect> on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:24:31AM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote: > On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 08:20 PM, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: > > Anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device. So the only issue > > in building the device is the will to die for a cause. And the only > > thing I find unfortunate in all of this is that there are so many > > causes that people are willing to die for. And war will not make > > those reasons go away - it will only encourage them. > > It's really _not_ this easy. It took China and India a while before > they successfully tested an A-bomb (many years after they had the raw > materials from their reactor programs). It may have taken the South > Africans and Israelis a few years after getting materials, too. So, > why didn't they just hammer U-235 into stainless steel mixing bowls > and do it the way "anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device," > one wonders. This analysis neglects consideration of several points: - Nation-states (even authoritarian ones) will likely want to create both a sustained program, not merely crank out a few crude nukes, and preserve the talent involved. One-offs are almost always easier to complete than a production effort, but the lowered total cost is offset by a higher unit cost. The terrorist organization can accomplish its goals with crude tactics and marginally effective devices. Credible military threat isn't as simple. - Credible military weapons have minimum requirements of both efficacy -- efficient use of supercritical energy -- and predictability -- having the damned thing go off in the silo / bunker / hanger / munitions dump rather than the chosen target isn't particularly useful. Tighter constraints => Longer fulfillment time. The original US project, as described by Feynman, involved much radiation exposure and high risks of criticality incidents at Oak Ridge, some of which are documented in his biographical essay collections. The Hanford reservation is still a glowing waste zone, much of which greatly postdates a fairly deep understanding of radiation hazards. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From cripto at ecn.org Sat Nov 17 07:30:22 2001 From: cripto at ecn.org (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:30:22 +0100 Subject: Stasi files Message-ID: <853d42c9d000be06948fe20b20993e0a@ecn.org> from http://www.fbi.gov/majcases/amerithrax/amerithrax.htm : "is likely an adult male." "strong interest in science" "may not be comfortable or practiced in writing in lower case lettering" "has exhibited an organized, rational thought process in furtherance of his criminal behavior." "AGAIN, IF YOU HAVE CREDIBLE INFORMATION THAT MIGHT HELP IDENTIFY THIS PERSON, PLEASE CONTACT THE FBI IMMEDIATELY AT 1-800-CRIMETV" THIS IS TIM MAY !!! MUST BE ! From honig at sprynet.com Sat Nov 17 17:34:30 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 17:34:30 -0800 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) In-Reply-To: <15F971E8-DB8C-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011117173430.007b86c0@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:51 AM 11/17/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: > >One of my long-term programming heroes is Dan Ingalls, the guy who >invented BitBlt (for windowing systems) and did most of the actual >development of Smalltalk. He's still in the thick of things and is >contributing mightily. Walker of Autodesk/CERN (?) is grey and active AFAIK. From honig at sprynet.com Sat Nov 17 17:41:22 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 17:41:22 -0800 Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security In-Reply-To: References: <200111171846.fAHIkfv19229@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011117174122.007c27b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:57 AM 11/17/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Airport chemical "sniffers" apparently look for the signature of nitrogen >compounds, not "explosives," per se. I've often wondered how many weekend >gardeners have gotten hassled and delayed because of trace amounts of >ammonia-based fertilizers on their person and effects. If you plan to fly, >be sure to wash your hands thoroughly before heading out for the airport if >you have been shoot, gardening or house cleaning. I've wondered about that too; airport sniffers must have encountered Miracle Gro and angina nitro during the early days, measuring a false alarm rate. Shooting is scary; you could contaminate your car driving back from the range, then contaminate your travel gear. The explosives expert in one of the older terror trial docs on cryptome says things suggesting that a few washes will remove traces. (And contaminate clothes washed with them.) I once checked out the screen on a sniffer, and they list "nitrates" as a category. I suppose having PETN (another category) detected on your laptop would be harder to explain :-) From honig at sprynet.com Sat Nov 17 17:49:02 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 17:49:02 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <20011117151508.B7045@navel.introspect> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011117174902.007b37b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:15 PM 11/17/01 -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: >on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:36:32PM -0800, alphabeta121 >(alphabeta121 at hotmail.com) wrote: >> what does C-A-C-L stand for? > >Crypto-Anarcho Capitalist Libertarian, per archives. Shorthand for a >common, if not prevailing, political viewpoint among active listmembers. > That label is 1. inconsistent (libertarian & anarchy) 2. redundant ('capitalist' and libertarian) 3. nonsensical --cryptography is a neutral technology with debatable social consequences 4. one poster's label; and anyone can post here Your milage may vary. From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 17:53:22 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 17:53:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cypherpunk failures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011118015322.15656.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> > Maybe it's not too late. But if this group is ever to resume its role > as an exciting place where the future of computing is visible, it must > refocus its efforts. Cypherpunks should think positively, look past > current troubles, and start talking again about crypto technology and > how it can change the world. That would be a conversation worth having. The basic problem with cpunks is misunderstanding of the ground rules. Most cpunks are/were cube slaves, albeit with decent salaries, and some have cashed out (you know who you are.) As well-paid hired hands they tend to forget who masters are and how masters function. Trying to shove the privacy down the throat of unsuspecting citizenry is an exercise in futility. Not unlike organising the church of atheists. "Ordinary" people will do what they are fed with. Cypherpunks have no means of conquering even 0.001% of the input bandwidth of "ordinary people". There is no money and no means for that. So, what is left ? - Sell out and help various "rights" groups that do good (as defined by USG - always groups outside US and sympathetic to US) use crypto. - Sell out and do commercial crypto which will never have any impact on individual's privacy. - Sell out and radiate negative vibes and pipe dreams about killing. The point is, we have not found a killer app that: a) can be sustained by a small group of disorganised individuals b) has huge appeal to "ordinary" people. Remailers satisfy a) but not b), for example. What looks most promising at the time being are P2P apps that need protection from snooping. Let's make trading .mp3s a crime with capital punishment. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sat Nov 17 18:04:08 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:04:08 -0800 Subject: Cypherpunk failures Message-ID: <200111180204.fAI248J55309@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 02:00 AM 11/18/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: >The larger question is, what is it about the cypherpunk worldview which is so wrong? Why do cypherpunks constantly predict events which don't come true? And is this faulty vision responsible for the failure of the cypherpunks to maintain their cultural and technological influence, and to make progress towards their goals? >The most crippling error of the cypherpunks has been their unremitting pessimism. Ever since the group was created they have predicted imminent crackdowns on cryptography. And yet the trend has consistently been in the opposite direction. Rather than keeping to an optimistic vision of a better world, cypherpunks have sunk into a morass of doomsaying. The Y2K debacle was perhaps the most prominent example of failed pessimism. Why work on crypto if the world is coming to an end? You're way off base. Many CP on and off this list have attempted, some to a relatively creditable degree, to create technologies (many open source) or launch ventures consistent with CP goals. >Another mistake has been to view the world in simplistic terms of black and white, true patriots versus those who "need killin'". Government in this view is a monolithic entity with the single-minded goal of destroying individual rights and creating a tyrannical dictatorship. Society is composed of "sheeple" who are ignorant of their own best interests and easily manipulated by those in power. This view ignores the complex nature of political and corporate influence and the many competing groups which vie for power in the world. It emphasizes that to keep one's civil rights in the face of those who would trade them away, it may sometimes be necessary to temper their ignorance, greed, or other self interest with the specter of personal consequences untempered by law. >And of course much energy has been wasted in internal debate and rhetoric which, because founded on these erroneous points, has been useless and irrelevant. It's easier to moan and complain when bad things happen than to adopt a positive view of the world and work in an optimistic way to make it happen. >Meanwhile the most interesting technological changes are passing the cypherpunks by. The open source movement, peer to peer exchange, the music and copyright wars, all have had little impact in the cypherpunk world. Peer to peer technology alone has tremendous potential as a foundation for long-term cypherpunk dreams like anonymizing proxies, encrypted data sharing, eternity, even DC nets. Again you appear to be ignorant of the many CPs (Adam Back, Adam Shostack, Ian Goldberg, Ian Grigg, Doug Barnes, Sameer Parekh, Marc Bracino, Jim McCoy, and many others) who have contributed heavily in these areas. As Tim says read the archives. Its all there. While it may be true that some were too early and somewhat idealistic I expect that their efforts will directly or indirectly encourage others to take up the banner and push on to success. From piolenc at mozcom.com Sat Nov 17 03:19:02 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:19:02 +0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device References: Message-ID: <3BF647A6.F3736F90@mozcom.com> A couple of corrections from somebody who began studying this threat fifteen years ago. There is little danger to weapons builders from exposure to fissile materials, because they have very little spontaneous radioactivity. The radioactive emissions come when the device goes supercritical during detonation. You can actually hold a subcritical mass of plutonium in your hand for awhile - I'm told it feels warm. Can't say I've tried it myself. Plans for a nuclear device are easy enough to come up with - college kids regularly cause silly-season sensations by publishing "plans" for hydrogen bombs. You can't classify the basic physics, and the data for controlled nuclear reactions is equally applicable to deliberate fast-prompt-critical runaways, which is what nuclear bombs are. What's difficult is not the material, or the material processing, but the detonator TECHNOLOGY. Even that is not a problem if you have LOTS of U-235 or U-233 (plutonium won't work), because you can than use a gun-type device - very heavy and wasteful of material, but workable as proven by Hiroshima's fate. An implosion device (and only an implosion device can be made small) requires the simultaneous (to within microseconds) detonation of perhaps 32 composite shaped charges surrounding a spherical "core" and tamper shell. The manufacture of the charges is very demanding, but the manufacture of the detonators and switches (Krytrons) is the province of maybe four or five firms in the entire world, all carefully monitored by their respective governments. With a full set of _Exploding Wires_, lots of time and extensive manufacturing support, you could eventually get a set of krytrons with the necessary specs. Judging by the number of recent attempts to smuggle krytrons from established sources, however, this has not yet been accomplished by Saddam, Bin Laden or any of their ilk. I'm not losing any sleep over this "threat." Regards, Marc de Piolenc "!Dr. Joe Baptista" wrote: > > One thing that is bothering me these days are all the reports coming out > of Afganistan that nuclear bomb making plans were found. Big > deal. Anyone on the planet can make a nuclear device if they have the > appropriate materials. The hard part is staying alive due to exposure > while manufacturing the device. > > If however death is not an issue then the process itself becomes easy to > accomplish. > > Materials > --------- > > 4 stainless steal salad bowls (5 - 8 inch diameter) > 10 pounds of U-235 (Plutonium) > 1 containment cylinder in which to fit the salad bowls > ? some explosives - C4 platic works best - but TNT or gun powder is > acceptable. > > Assembly > -------- > > 10 pounds of U-235 is required to achive critical mass. However less will > work but you will get a sub critical mass on detonation. The difference > is taking out an entire city as opposed to a few city blocks. > > Divide the U-235 into two five pound masses. Beat it evenly into the > inside of one of your salad bowls. U-235 is malleable like gold so you > should have no problem shaping it. Do the same with the other U-235 mass > and shape it into the other salad bowl. > > Keep the two bowls apart - you don't want an accident to cause your > project to go critical. > > C4 explosives work best. You simply mold the C4 into the other two salad > bowls. This is the most dangerous part of the project. Improper handling > of C4 can cause an explosion. But gun powder is just as effective. > > Now fit the U-235 salad bowls into the C4 salad bowls and place them at > each end of the cylindrical containment. Connect your explosives to a > detonator and close off the ends of the cylynder. Make sure the detonator > sets off both explosives at the same time. > > The trick is to bring the U-235 masses together at the same time. > > And thats it. I would recommend some form of protection while building > the project. The aprons worn by dentists will work. They will protect > you to some degree from radioactive poisoning. However - your life is > only being prolonged by taking such measures - you still will end up dead > due to the U-235 radiation regardless of what you do. > > And thats it. > > Conclusion > ---------- > > Anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device. So the only issue in > building the device is the will to die for a cause. And the only thing I > find unfortunate in all of this is that there are so many causes that > people are willing to die for. And war will not make those reasons go > away - it will only encourage them. > > regards > joe baptista > > -- > Joe Baptista > > http://www.dot-god.com/ > > The dot.GOD Registry, Limited > The Executive Plaza, Suite 908 > 150 West 51st Street Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173 > Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773 -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin From faustine at lokmail.net Sat Nov 17 16:52:17 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:52:17 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: <200111180052.TAA07856@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1647 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Nov 17 20:03:49 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:03:49 -0800 Subject: Cypherpunk failures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BF6C2A5.31833.FA9FC@localhost> -- On 18 Nov 2001, at 2:00, Nomen Nescio wrote: > The larger question is, what is it about the cypherpunk > worldview which is so wrong? Why do cypherpunks constantly > predict events which don't come true? Those who plan revolution always overestimate the pace of change, just as those who start companies always overestimate the profits, and those who schedule software projects always under estimate the time and cost. The trend has mostly been as predicted. The timing has been badly off. Nonetheless, revolutions happen, companies get started and sometimes become profitable, and once in a while, very rarely, software projects even get completed. > And is this faulty vision responsible for the failure of > the cypherpunks to maintain their cultural and > technological influence, and to make progress towards their > goals? I write code. Right now that code is being used for purposes I very much approve of. I expected that code to move mountains. In actual fact it has made a small dent in one mountain, but not an entirely insignificant dent. I intend to write some more code. So though the cypherpunks list is moribund, and cypherpunks are no longer fashionable, I see progress towards our goals. > The most crippling error of the cypherpunks has been their > unremitting pessimism. Could have fooled me. The predictions of imminent cataclysmic national ruin are from our point of view more a matter of optimism rather than pessimism. Further, these predictions should not be taken all that seriously. The typical cypherpunk has a small amount of gold and ammo buried in some peculiar place, and occaisionally practices his shooting and martial arts, but these are a matter of insurance rather than real expectations. From the smallness of the amount of gold buried, and the rather second rate accuracy of his shooting, one can infer he really does not expect imminent catastrophe. > Another mistake has been to view the world in simplistic > terms of black and white, true patriots versus those who > "need killin'". Government in this view is a monolithic > entity with the single-minded goal of destroying individual > rights and creating a tyrannical dictatorship. Obviously government is not a monolithic entity. The movement towards tyrannical dictatorship is more like a wall slowly slumping, than any cynical and well worked out plan. Nonetheless, it moves towards tyrannical dictatorship. > Meanwhile the most interesting technological changes are > passing the cypherpunks by. The open source movement, peer > to peer exchange, the music and copyright wars, all have > had little impact in the cypherpunk world. Peer to peer > technology alone has tremendous potential as a foundation > for long-term cypherpunk dreams like anonymizing proxies, > encrypted data sharing, eternity, even DC nets. Encryption > should be a fundamental part of file sharing systems. > Digital reputations are the solution to the problem of > bogus data being maliciously inserted into networks in > order to clog them and interfere with searches. Crypto > protocols can help against some kinds of denial of service > attacks. Mojo nation. Of course the reason a really strong product like mojo nation has not proven popular is precisely because there is not enough of a crackdown. If the authorities really got heavy on the napster clones, then our skills would be more in demand, and our plans would move forward faster. As the left is fond of saying, "repressive tolerance". This crack down on the hawalas network may well personally profit me. In this case it may well be that the laws advance, rather than prevent, the development of digital money. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG EPFIzwETMpz6qjYGZsYx40AuxWjJ2ExSKGIyrKh+ 4fq7FOlO/GPsVvXBLjn1a3g5NeZgDJk4q6nN6tbGB From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Nov 17 20:03:49 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:03:49 -0800 Subject: Cypherpunk failures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BF6C2A5.28587.FA9DE@localhost> -- Someone wrote: > Speaking of laws by Christmas, anyone want to give odds on > the accuracy of Tim May's prediction on September 13: > > Dark times are coming. I'll bet a complete ban on > strong, unescrowed crypto is passed in all European > countries, Russia, China, Japan, and the U.S. by, say, > December 15th. > > and > > I'm betting, as I said in my last post, that strong > unescrowed crypto will be illegal by December 15th. > > Does anyone think this prediction will come true? No, will not come true. All wars are good for government and bad for freedom, but a short victorious war against a far away regime is likely to be less bad than most. If we lost the war, and the war on terror turned inward, against Americans, and became like the war on drugs, then it would have come true. As I write this, the Taliban appears to have entirely collapsed, which will presumably soon result in the Northern alliance killing Bin Laden, and probably his children, relatives, associates, and everyone in his general vicinity. Problem solved. Perhaps they return to the good old afghan tradition of the women folk slowly skinning the foreigners alive. This was women's work, since men lack the patience and manual dexterity required. However, a wise government can always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. It seems we are going to do some nation building, fresh from our great successes in building the nations of Iran and Somalia. Right now the Afghans are chanting "death to Arabs" but if we stick around too long, doubtless we will once again be hearing "death to Americans" Of course, the problem with building nations is that soldiers cannot build nations. At best, soldiers kill bad guys and break their toys. For nation building something rather more is required, starting with a consensus. It would seem they are fair bit short of consensus in Afghanistan, though I saw on television that they are working very hard at it. The Afghan economy is entirely dependent on trade and smuggling, as it has been for the past two thousand years, which is a bit odd for a land-locked country occupied by xenophobic people. When local warlords put up roadblocks to collect tariffs every short distance, the economy collapses, as it did before the Taliban took over. The obvious solution is for the various tribes, warlords, militias, and armed mosques to agree on freedom of trade and movement, and agree to leave each other alone apart from enforcing that. Needless to say, such a solution does not seem to be on the cards, particularly if we "help" them form a government with a bunch of UN troops from various islamic tyrannies and one islamic democracy. Afghanistan cannot survive economically if divided into mutually hostile ethnic and religious enclaves, nor can it survive politically if one centralized unitary government is imposed on this quarrelsome patchwork of very different tribes, races, and religions. It will be hard for Afghan politicians to steer a path between these two catastrophes. For foreign politicians, it will be near impossible. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG sKNc0ZkzESI+/W74xc3mXuPDGrsBVO0GDRe9P7aw 4wEInsJIbFPzALwa1k4byM0nkV5lqxkVQzAnfrnsw From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sat Nov 17 11:40:28 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:40:28 +0100 (MET) Subject: [BIOWAR] Chemcial/Biological Satellite Course (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:07:53 -0500 From: "Patricia Doyle, PhD" To: biowar at topica.com Subject: [BIOWAR] Chemcial/Biological Satellite Course Those interested in taking the 3 day satellite seminar presented by USAMRIID and USAMRICD go to biomedtraining.org and register for the FREE 3 day event. 12:30pm-4:30pm Nov. 27, 28 & 29th. There is no charge to view the broadcast and it is going to be presented at downlink sites around the US, Southern Canada, Puerto Rico, Alaska and Hawaii. Those who wish to view online webcast, also register at that website. CME credit available for the course. A rebroadcast will take place in Dec., I believe around Dec. 9th. I have taken the courses and find the material to be extremely accurate, and timely. Simply log onto biomedtraining.org, register for username and password, then pick the site you choose to view the broadcast and register. After registration, call or email site facilitator for confirmation of registration. Simple as that. Last year we even got free luch, (sandwhichs and soda) and text book. Those who cannot attend the broadcast can still download program materials on the biomedtraining.org site. pdf files available. At this time in history, we do not want to let these learning opportunities go by. Patricia Doyle Patricia A. Doyle, PhD Please visit my "Emerging Diseases" message board at: http://www.clickitnews.com/emergingdiseases/index.shtml Zhan le Devlesa tai sastimasa Go with God and in Good Health _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Post to: biowar at topica.com. Unsubscribe to: biowar-unsubscribe at topica.com. List info: www.topica.com/lists/biowar ==^================================================================ This email was sent to: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Q0W.a9I0on Or send an email to: biowar-unsubscribe at topica.com T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================ From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 17 21:15:16 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:15:16 -0800 Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011117174122.007c27b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <40C789BC-DBE3-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 05:41 PM, David Honig wrote: > At 10:57 AM 11/17/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >> Airport chemical "sniffers" apparently look for the signature of >> nitrogen >> compounds, not "explosives," per se. I've often wondered how many >> weekend >> gardeners have gotten hassled and delayed because of trace amounts of >> ammonia-based fertilizers on their person and effects. If you plan to >> fly, >> be sure to wash your hands thoroughly before heading out for the >> airport if >> you have been shoot, gardening or house cleaning. > > I've wondered about that too; airport sniffers must have encountered > Miracle Gro and angina nitro during the early days, measuring > a false alarm rate. Shooting is scary; you could contaminate > your car driving back from the range, then contaminate your > travel gear. > > The explosives expert in one of the older terror trial docs on cryptome > says things suggesting that a few washes will remove traces. (And > contaminate > clothes washed with them.) > > I once checked out the screen on a sniffer, and they list "nitrates" > as a category. I suppose having PETN (another category) detected > on your laptop would be harder to explain :-) I don't see what the big concern is here. Just stand there and say nothing. They're going to go through the bags as they wish anyway. The nitrogen connection has been known for many years, too. I remember hearing that _marzipan_ candy tends to set off the detectors, something to do with the almonds and nitrates and all. Big deal. Just stand there and let them search. Using your range bag for carryone luggage is perfectly legal, providing you haven't left any shells inside, or any bore cleaning brushes which might be used as Assault Brushes. --Tim May "Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events following 9/11/2001 From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 17 21:59:30 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:59:30 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111180425.XAA26214@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <6E89076E-DBE9-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 08:25 PM, Faustine wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:52:17PM -0500, Faustine wrote: >> So maybe it's worth putting a little effort into thinking of ways to >> AOLize (for lack of a better term) digital cash: a mass market reqires >> mass appeal. > >> What a good idea! Bet nobody thought of that before! > Something's wrong with your quoting software: Declan wrote that last line, not you. > Getting away fron digital cash for a moment, If you'd care to point me > to any > examples of crypto companies really focused and committed to developing > applications that are commercially appealing to Joe Sixpack AOLuser, > I'd be > interested to hear about them. SSL/RSA built into every financial transaction with the common browsers. Visit Amazon, Ebay, etc., and note the secure connections. User-transpaperent, of course, but then, of course, this is precisely what a "Joe Sixpack AOLuser" [SIC] application _must_ be. Next question? > Is it really such a stretch to say that most > people in the crypto community don't really give a damn about Joe wants > or > needs? How many times have you heard people here implicitly echo the > sentiment: "If they're too lazy or stupid to get it, then screw em." Well, you are the one using the expression "Joe Sixpack AOLuser." As for me, I'm a neo-Calvinist Nietzscheian. It is of little concern to me whether crypto is dumbed-down to the point where Mr. Rogers uses it. > Maybe the technology isn't far enough along to waste time worrying about > Joe at all. But the disdain so many "high priests of the code" seem to > feel > towards the uninitiated might go a long way toward explaining why > revenues > aren't all they could be. As usual, you just bullshit about things you obviously know little about. Do some serious reading, get up to speed. --Tim May "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound" From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 17 22:08:59 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:08:59 -0800 Subject: Recording Artists File Brief Against RIAA Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117220843.04fdbfb8@pop3.lvcm.com> Recording Artists File Brief Against RIAA Matthew Skala writes: "The Recording Artists' Coalition, which includes such luminaries as Bruce Springsteen, Don Henley, and Sheryl Crow, is still annoyed about the "Work for Hire" legislation we heard about in August 2000. They've filed a brief in the Napster cases, urging the court not to accept the RIAA's copyright registration documents as proof of ownership, because accepting the documents would allow the music cartel to sneakily destroy artists' claims to the music they recorded. They don't take a stand on other issues we might be interested in, but it's still worth thinking about. If the artists are against the RIAA, then whom exactly does the RIAA represent? Some quotes and info are on Siliconvalley.com." http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/tech/082413.htm http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/15/0410226.shtml From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 17 22:09:59 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:09:59 -0800 Subject: Scalia: Thumbs Down on ID Card Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117220946.04f8b680@pop3.lvcm.com> Scalia: Thumbs Down on ID Card Antonin Scalia, one of the Supreme Court's most conservative justices, says he would vote against a national ID card if the issue went on the ballot. http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,48419,00.html From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 17 22:11:23 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:11:23 -0800 Subject: IP conference: copyright law has gone too far Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117221109.04dc4008@pop3.lvcm.com> IP conference: copyright law has gone too far The recording industry and the Business Software Alliance squared off against the Electronic Frontier Foundation and US Rep. Rick Boucher Wednesday in a debate over laws such as the Digital Millennium Copyright Act aimed at protecting large copyright holders, with the hearts and minds of a crowd of Washington, D.C., decision-makers as the prize. http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/22876.html From unicorn at schloss.li Sat Nov 17 22:15:09 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:15:09 -0800 Subject: Scalia: Thumbs Down on ID Card In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117220946.04f8b680@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: That pesky Scalia. Always causing trouble. Someone go to the In Chambers Pub and ask him what the heck he's doing commenting publically on such things. Sheesh. "Will no one rid me of this troublesome justice?" > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Steve Schear > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:10 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Scalia: Thumbs Down on ID Card > > > Scalia: Thumbs Down on ID Card > Antonin Scalia, one of the Supreme Court's most conservative > justices, says > he would vote against a national ID card if the issue went on the ballot. > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,48419,00.html From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 17 22:17:28 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:17:28 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <20011117152904.C7045@navel.introspect> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 03:29 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote: > - Credible military weapons have minimum requirements of both efficacy > -- efficient use of supercritical energy -- and predictability -- > having the damned thing go off in the silo / bunker / hanger / > munitions dump rather than the chosen target isn't particularly > useful. > > Tighter constraints => Longer fulfillment time. > > The original US project, as described by Feynman, involved much > radiation exposure and high risks of criticality incidents at Oak Ridge, > some of which are documented in his biographical essay collections. I knew Feynman (*) and I knew the main survivor or the criticality accident at Los Alamos. (Klein, who survived "ticking the dragon's tail" and had annual tests done for the rest of his life, which just ended a couple of years ago.) You are overstating the "high risks of criticality incidents," I think strongly. (* This should mean something to you: we had him over for dinner at our place on Camino del Sur, I.V.) Feynman wasn't even involved in that end of the physics. A couple of deaths happened, which is hardly surprising given the speed and magnitude of the war effort. More Americans died when a particular truck hit a land mine. More Americans probably died in Los Alamos when their trucks ran off the roads into the ravines. Get some perspective. > The > Hanford reservation is still a glowing waste zone, much of which greatly > postdates a fairly deep understanding of radiation hazards. > > Peace. > Fuck your "Peace" bullshit. You are spouting nonsense with your "glowing waste zone" idiocy. I lived west of the Hanford plant for a few years and had occasion to measure the radioactivity levels of samples. The ash from the eruption of Mt. St. Helens was hotter than all but a very few small pockets of soil in the Tri-City Area. You should cut down on the bullshitting. Everytime I glance --Tim May "You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael Shirley From declan at well.com Sat Nov 17 19:26:58 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:26:58 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111180052.TAA07856@mail.lokmail.net>; from faustine@lokmail.net on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:52:17PM -0500 References: <200111180052.TAA07856@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <20011117222657.C527@cluebot.com> On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:52:17PM -0500, Faustine wrote: > So maybe it's worth putting a little effort into thinking of ways to > AOLize (for lack of a better term) digital cash: a mass market reqires > mass appeal. What a good idea! Bet nobody thought of that before! More seriously, as has been discussed here before, there are far more serious obstacles in the path of digital cash than the AOLize'd factor, though it's important to never forget the obvious. -Declan From declan at well.com Sat Nov 17 19:32:46 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:32:46 -0500 Subject: Cypherpunk failures In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@dizum.com on Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 02:00:15AM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20011117223246.D527@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 02:00:15AM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Speaking of laws by Christmas, anyone want to give odds on the accuracy > of Tim May's prediction on September 13: > > Dark times are coming. I'll bet a complete ban on strong, unescrowed > crypto is passed in all European countries, Russia, China, Japan, and > the U.S. by, say, December 15th. Yes, this will turn out to be an incorrect prediction. Not one country has taken serious steps to ban or limit crypto; in the U.S., even Gregg never introduced his bill. > The larger question is, what is it about the cypherpunk worldview which > is so wrong? Why do cypherpunks constantly predict events which don't > come true? And is this faulty vision responsible for the failure of > the cypherpunks to maintain their cultural and technological influence, > and to make progress towards their goals? Tim does not equal cypherpunks, and not all of his predictions turn out to be so off. It's difficult to predict the future accurately -- what would be more interesting is to compare relvant predictions made by cypherpunks against predictions made by, say, groups of politicians, academics, think tank types, and so on. Go for it. > Meanwhile the most interesting technological changes are passing the > cypherpunks by. The open source movement, peer to peer exchange, the > music and copyright wars, all have had little impact in the cypherpunk > world. Peer to peer technology alone has tremendous potential as a This is actually partly true -- even Freenet, perhaps the most promising cypherpunkly project with live code right now, barely gets a mention on the list. -Declan From aimee.farr at pobox.com Sat Nov 17 20:39:56 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:39:56 -0600 Subject: Monkeywrenching In-Reply-To: <3BF643B4.32624.D595B9@localhost> Message-ID: I am no longer on the list. My "Policeman Inside" broke out. He won't let me be associated with silly salad talk, mission orientation, and Levi-Smithing. ~Aimee > -----Original Message----- > From: jamesd at echeque.com [mailto:jamesd at echeque.com] > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 1:02 PM > To: Declan McCullagh; Aimee Farr > Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: RE: Monkeywrenching > > > -- > On 16 Nov 2001, at 16:50, Aimee Farr wrote: > > I meant it in the sense that it sounds like they are > > talking about criminal defense lawyers. > > > > (i.e., "make numerous references to the US Constitution," > > "defenders," ....etc-etc.) > > Criminal defense has already been criminalized in hard to > enforce laws such as the drug laws, with a various lawyers > being busted on charges of providing competent and relevant > defense for the accused. > > Government propaganda is already appearing to justify such > punishment. While channel surfing I saw a fictional show > about a bunch of lawyers who are in danger of being disbarred > for taking drug traffickers as clients, and they are > suffering orgasms of liberal guilt about how much they > deserve punishment for accepting such terrible clients. > Presumably it is still OK for the moment to defend rapists > and murderers. > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > bHgDORB62aC6HjcAremd3dhdRe6M9c83vYRND2Zh > 45QXPQhYmXU9sf6mOHbk16N+w5/9n5dTxqbgu8Ml3 From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 17 22:47:21 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:47:21 -0800 Subject: ATM Fiends On A Spree Of Rip-Offs Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117223815.04f8d5f8@pop3.lvcm.com> ATM FIENDS ON A SPREE OF RIP-OFFS By LARRY CELONA and ANDY GELLER [My security group at Citicorp (which designed and built the crypto systems for our ATMs and switching fabric processors) predicted in the late '80s that Van Eck freaking an ATM might be a successful way to eavesdrop on PINs and card info.] November 17, 2001 -- EXCLUSIVE The NYPD and the Secret Service have launched a major investigation into complaints that bank customers have lost thousands of dollars through unauthorized ATM withdrawals. Since last Saturday, the NYPD has received more than a dozen complaints of unauthorized withdrawals, mostly from people who have used ATMs on the Upper East Side. But customers who use ATMs in the Financial District and the West Side have also been hit. Cops are expanding their probe citywide and expect to find many more cases. Sources said most of the complaints involve Citibank customers, but people who bank with Chase and other institutions also have been victimized. Customers have lost up to $3,000 apiece - even though their bank cards have never left their possession. Most of the victims are people who used ATMs in grocery stores, delis and shopping malls, the sources said. Investigators believe that the thieves have managed to hook up personal computers to the ATM and download information about customers, the sources said. Then they make phony bank cards and withdraw money using the customers' personal identification numbers. From faustine at lokmail.net Sat Nov 17 20:25:19 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 23:25:19 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: <200111180425.XAA26214@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1670 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kmself at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 17 23:40:42 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 23:40:42 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:17:28PM -0800 References: <20011117152904.C7045@navel.introspect> Message-ID: <20011117234042.A15726@navel.introspect> on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:17:28PM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote: > On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 03:29 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote: > > - Credible military weapons have minimum requirements of both > > efficacy -- efficient use of supercritical energy -- and > > predictability -- having the damned thing go off in the silo / > > bunker / hanger / munitions dump rather than the chosen target > > isn't particularly useful. > > > > Tighter constraints => Longer fulfillment time. > > > > The original US project, as described by Feynman, involved much > > radiation exposure and high risks of criticality incidents at Oak Ridge, > > some of which are documented in his biographical essay collections. > > I knew Feynman (*) and I knew the main survivor or the criticality > accident at Los Alamos. (Klein, who survived "ticking the dragon's > tail" and had annual tests done for the rest of his life, which just > ended a couple of years ago.) You are overstating the "high risks of > criticality incidents," I think strongly. > > (* This should mean something to you: we had him over for dinner at our > place on Camino del Sur, I.V.) One of my regrets is never having met Feynman. I've enjoyed his works. > Feynman wasn't even involved in that end of the physics. A couple of > deaths happened, which is hardly surprising given the speed and > magnitude of the war effort. More Americans died when a particular truck > hit a land mine. More Americans probably died in Los Alamos when their > trucks ran off the roads into the ravines. Get some perspective. The risks I'm referring to are those resulting in his visits to Oak Ridge at which he found that workers didn't know of, let alone understand, the concept of criticality. I believe the issue was covered at more depth in _Surely You Must be Joking_ or _What do You Care What Other People Think_, but I've just got Gleick's biography _Genius_ handy. P. 198-199. It's explicit that Feynman was part of the assessment and solution of the situation: At Oak Ridge, where the first batches of enriched uranium were acculating, a few officials began to consider some of the problems that might arise. One letter that made its way to Los Alamos from Oak Ridge opened, "Dear Sir, At the present time no provisions have been made in the 9207 Area for stopping reactions resulting from the bringing together by accident of an unsafe quantity of material...." Would it make sense, asked the writer -- a plant superintendent with the Tennessee Eastman Corporation -- to install some kind of advanced fire-extinguishing equipment, possibly using special chemicals? [Robert] Oppenheimer recognized the peril waiting in such questions. He brought in [Edward] Teller and Emilio Segre, head of the experimental division's radioactivity group. Segre paid an inspection visit, other thorists were assigned, and finally the problem was turned over to Fenyman, with his expertise in critical-mass calculations. [A situation exacerbated by storage of "wet" uranium -- water being an effective damper, lowering requirements for a critical episode.] ....Through dozens of rooms in a series of buildings Feynman saw drums with 300 gallons, 600 gallons, 3,000 gallons....He relaized that the plant was headed toward a catastrophe. At some point the buildup of uranium would case a nuclear reaction that would release heat and radioactivity at near-explosive speed....He laid out an detailed program for ensuring safety. He also invented a practical method...that would let engineers make a conservative approximation, on the spoot, of the safe levels of bomb material stored in various geometrical layouts. A few people, long afterward, thought he had saved their lives. A more recent incident of similar nature was the Oct. 1, 1999, Tokaimura, Japan incident in which at least 19 workers were exposed to radiation from a critical mass of enriched uranium nuclear fuel, later reports put the number as high as 667 workers and residents. http://ens.lycos.com/ens/sep99/1999L-09-30-04.html http://www.physicstoday.com/pt/vol-53/iss-12/p61a.html Radiation levels reportedly reached 15,000 times normal levels 1.2 miles from the site, too high to allow worke to approach the accident site. Residents within a 10 kilometer (six mile) radius of the plant have been told to stay indoors. The order affects close to 300,000 people. About 160 were evacuated. Two workers in the incident died as a result of radiation exposure, Hisashi Ouchi, December 22, 1999, Masato Shinohara April 27, 2000. The third worker most directly exposed to the incident, Yutaka Yokokawa, was released from hospital in December, 1999. The direct cause of the Tokaimura incident appears to have been corporate corner (and cost) cutting, sanctioned by the plants owners to the extent it was part of documented procedure: http://www.joewein.de/tokaimura.htm The accident happened when workers preparing nuclear fuels mixed uranium oxide with nitric acid using a stainless steel container instead of a mixing apparatus. This shortcut was described in an illegal operating manual drafted by the company. The manual had never been approved by the supervising ministry, as was legally required. The procedure violated some of the most basic safety requirements that were well known in the nuclear industries since the early 1940s. By circumventing the mixing apparatus an excessive amount of nuclear fuel could be inserted at any one time, which lead to a nuclear chain reaction. Most likely the illegal shortcut was an attempt to save costs in order to be more competitive with foreign fuel suppliers. The shortcut had been used for seven or eight years before the accident happened. The three workers were performing this task for the first time and were wearing t-shirts instead of protective clothing and the required film badges to measure radioactive exposure. > > The Hanford reservation is still a glowing waste zone, much of which > > greatly postdates a fairly deep understanding of radiation hazards. > You are spouting nonsense with your "glowing waste zone" idiocy. > > I lived west of the Hanford plant for a few years and had occasion to > measure the radioactivity levels of samples. The ash from the eruption > of Mt. St. Helens was hotter than all but a very few small pockets of > soil in the Tri-City Area. The issue under discussion is long-term contamination resulting from military nuclear projects. Contamination at the Hanford facility has been well documented; one quick cite: http://www.whistleblower.org/www/hanford.htm Hanford waste disposal practices throughout its production history were horrendously shoddy. Government officials estimate that as much as 450 billion gallons of contaminated liquid wastes were dumped to the soils. As a result, the groundwater under more than 85 square miles of the site is contaminated above current standards. Some of the most radioactive materials were stored in underground tanks, constructed of concrete and containing a carbon steel liner. Of the 177 underground tanks, 69 are acknowledged to have failed so far, and to have leaked radioactive and chemically toxic solutions to the soils, where they have migrated to the groundwater which feeds the Columbia River. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 17 23:44:11 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 23:44:11 -0800 Subject: ATM Fiends On A Spree Of Rip-Offs In-Reply-To: <20011118022843.A8236@die.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117223815.04f8d5f8@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011117223815.04f8d5f8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117233738.04f9bed8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:28 AM 11/18/2001 -0500, Dave Emery wrote: >On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:47:21PM -0800, Steve Schear wrote: > > ATM FIENDS ON A SPREE OF RIP-OFFS > > By LARRY CELONA and ANDY GELLER > > > > [My security group at Citicorp (which designed and built the crypto > systems > > for our ATMs and switching fabric processors) predicted in the late '80s > > that Van Eck freaking an ATM might be a successful way to eavesdrop on > PINs > > and card info.] > > > > November 17, 2001 -- EXCLUSIVE > > The NYPD and the Secret Service have launched a major investigation into > > complaints that bank customers have lost thousands of dollars through > > unauthorized ATM withdrawals. > > > > I am very vague about US ATM protocols (not my field of expertise >at all), but of course there was a very recent disclosure of a hole >in the protocol for accessing the IBM tamperproof crypto processor >used for generating and storing ATM keys that could be exploited if one >could get access to a machine with one in it. Potentially this flaw >allows readout of the entire set of keys protected by the processor. > > This could be the explanation of the problem, as the protocol >problem has been known in at least some form for a year or so. In earlier ATMs, such as Citicorp manufactured models, all the I/O components were separate and the signals between them could either be captured by a Y-cable or a cable with a small hidden xmitter or by their unintended RF radiations. Newer ATMs, I believe, integrate the keypad with the crypto processor and attempt to reduce opportunities for PIN interception. ATM magstripe reader data, since it is available to any stripe reader on a credit authorization terminal, may not be as well protected. Though since you need both to pull off a card spoofing scam, it would seem prudent to secure that data as well. steve From faustine at lokmail.net Sat Nov 17 21:34:41 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 00:34:41 -0500 Subject: Monkeywrenching Message-ID: <200111180534.AAA10188@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1199 bytes Desc: not available URL: From piolenc at mozcom.com Sat Nov 17 09:35:37 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 01:35:37 +0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device References: Message-ID: <3BF69FE9.5D3CE0EE@mozcom.com> baptista at pccf.net wrote: > > On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > > detonation. You can actually hold a subcritical mass of plutonium in > > your hand for awhile - I'm told it feels warm. Can't say I've tried it > > myself. > > hold on mr. expert. > > you hold a sub critical mass in your hand and in a few days you end up > shitting out your guts, lose your hair and die. Look it up. The _Reactor Handbook_ is a good source on spontaneous decay rates of fissionables. Plutonium dust is a deadly chemical poison, but a properly formed (and protectively plated) mass of plutonium has very low radioactivity. Consider that nuclear weapons could not be built if the fissiles had high rates of spontaneous decay - the stuff would detonate prematurely, resulting in a fizzle. That, incidentally, is why plutonium cannot be used in a gun-type device - two isotopes are inevitably present, one of which (forgot the mass number, but you can look that up, too) has a spontaneous decay rate that is too high for the (relatively) slow assembly rate of a gun. Marc de Piolenc From drevil at sidereal.kz Sat Nov 17 17:35:37 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 18 Nov 2001 01:35:37 -0000 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: (message from Tim May on Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:00:05 -0800) References: Message-ID: <20011118013537.22245.qmail@sidereal.kz> > 6. The failure to get true digital money. Call it what you like, > "digital cash" or "ecash" or even one of Hettinga's pet names, but the > fact is that for both political and technical reasons we don't have > digital cash. This has ripple effects for nearly all of the constructs > which depend on digital money: data havens, good remailers, black nets, > beacons, and of course for certain sociopolitical implications of > untraceable transactions. > > Without this basic building block, we are left just with the "privacy" > stuff...and the privacy stuff is both fairly boring and at the same time > wrapped-up in legal/political baggage about secrecy, hiding things, etc. > Boring! As someone (Bob, perhaps?) says, financial crypto is the only kind of crypto that matters. Other things are interesting and useful, but this is the big one. Let's recap Tim's definition here: the financial crypto we're talking about here is anonymous unlinkable holding of value and untracable anonymous transfer of value. That's what we're talking about. The math and the technology are there, but it hasn't happened, and it isn't any closer to happening now than it was ten years ago. In fact it's even further away from happening. There have been endless discussions of why it hasn't happened, but the bottom line is, various powerful heavily-armed groups (tax collectors and their beneficiaries and many others) would lose literally billions or even trillions of dollars if that happened, so they will put infinite pressure on anyone who tries to do it. If you thought that you were going to lose a billion dollars, what wouldn't you do to stop that, especially if you have the legal power to use deadly force, write laws, and throw people in jail? Therefore, the operators of the scheme need to be anonymous, hidden, or hiding in a cave in Afghanistan (er, maybe that doesn't work anymore). Anyway, there are serious barriers to trusting people who are anonymous with your life savings, and there are serious reasons why such a system may never be stable. So, is there a way to get the system to work? There may be ways, but it's going to be a trick, and until that happens, all the other fun crypto-anarchy stuff won't go anywhere. This list is full of predictions, and here's mine: no anonymous digital cash will exist anytime soon (the next year, or five or ten years). The world goes on the way it always has! If you think back to humans evolving as small tribal groups, certain distributions of behavior were needed: we needed leaders, grunts, artists, craftsmen, risk takers, risk avoiders, freaks, and many other types. We don't live in tribal groups anymore but we still have that distribution of behaviors. Maybe financial crypto doesn't fit into this kind of distribution because it's too great a challenge to too many people. Financial crypto would let people bypass the leader-controler types in many important ways. From nobody at dizum.com Sat Nov 17 17:00:15 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 02:00:15 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cypherpunk failures Message-ID: Declan McCullagh wrote: > I'm told this bill is expected to become law by Christmas. > > >The Secretary of State shall issue, and may from time to time revise, a > >code of practice relating to the retention by communications providers of > >communications data obtained by or held by them... Speaking of laws by Christmas, anyone want to give odds on the accuracy of Tim May's prediction on September 13: Dark times are coming. I'll bet a complete ban on strong, unescrowed crypto is passed in all European countries, Russia, China, Japan, and the U.S. by, say, December 15th. and I'm betting, as I said in my last post, that strong unescrowed crypto will be illegal by December 15th. Does anyone think this prediction will come true? Or is it as mistaken as so many other Tim May predictions over the years? And by the way, who was Tim May betting with? Hopefully the sum they stand to gain is substantial. The larger question is, what is it about the cypherpunk worldview which is so wrong? Why do cypherpunks constantly predict events which don't come true? And is this faulty vision responsible for the failure of the cypherpunks to maintain their cultural and technological influence, and to make progress towards their goals? The most crippling error of the cypherpunks has been their unremitting pessimism. Ever since the group was created they have predicted imminent crackdowns on cryptography. And yet the trend has consistently been in the opposite direction. Rather than keeping to an optimistic vision of a better world, cypherpunks have sunk into a morass of doomsaying. The Y2K debacle was perhaps the most prominent example of failed pessimism. Why work on crypto if the world is coming to an end? Another mistake has been to view the world in simplistic terms of black and white, true patriots versus those who "need killin'". Government in this view is a monolithic entity with the single-minded goal of destroying individual rights and creating a tyrannical dictatorship. Society is composed of "sheeple" who are ignorant of their own best interests and easily manipulated by those in power. This view ignores the complex nature of political and corporate influence and the many competing groups which vie for power in the world. And of course much energy has been wasted in internal debate and rhetoric which, because founded on these erroneous points, has been useless and irrelevant. It's easier to moan and complain when bad things happen than to adopt a positive view of the world and work in an optimistic way to make it happen. Meanwhile the most interesting technological changes are passing the cypherpunks by. The open source movement, peer to peer exchange, the music and copyright wars, all have had little impact in the cypherpunk world. Peer to peer technology alone has tremendous potential as a foundation for long-term cypherpunk dreams like anonymizing proxies, encrypted data sharing, eternity, even DC nets. Encryption should be a fundamental part of file sharing systems. Digital reputations are the solution to the problem of bogus data being maliciously inserted into networks in order to clog them and interfere with searches. Crypto protocols can help against some kinds of denial of service attacks. If cypherpunks had been engaged in the world over the last few years instead of staring into their pessimistic navels, they could have played a part in today's revolutions. As it is, they appear to be "headed for the trash heap of history," to use Tim May's unfortunate phrase. Maybe it's not too late. But if this group is ever to resume its role as an exciting place where the future of computing is visible, it must refocus its efforts. Cypherpunks should think positively, look past current troubles, and start talking again about crypto technology and how it can change the world. That would be a conversation worth having. From die at die.com Sat Nov 17 23:28:43 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 02:28:43 -0500 Subject: ATM Fiends On A Spree Of Rip-Offs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117223815.04f8d5f8@pop3.lvcm.com>; from schear@lvcm.com on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:47:21PM -0800 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117223815.04f8d5f8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20011118022843.A8236@die.com> On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:47:21PM -0800, Steve Schear wrote: > ATM FIENDS ON A SPREE OF RIP-OFFS > By LARRY CELONA and ANDY GELLER > > [My security group at Citicorp (which designed and built the crypto systems > for our ATMs and switching fabric processors) predicted in the late '80s > that Van Eck freaking an ATM might be a successful way to eavesdrop on PINs > and card info.] > > November 17, 2001 -- EXCLUSIVE > The NYPD and the Secret Service have launched a major investigation into > complaints that bank customers have lost thousands of dollars through > unauthorized ATM withdrawals. > I am very vague about US ATM protocols (not my field of expertise at all), but of course there was a very recent disclosure of a hole in the protocol for accessing the IBM tamperproof crypto processor used for generating and storing ATM keys that could be exploited if one could get access to a machine with one in it. Potentially this flaw allows readout of the entire set of keys protected by the processor. This could be the explanation of the problem, as the protocol problem has been known in at least some form for a year or so. -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From die at die.com Sat Nov 17 23:42:11 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 02:42:11 -0500 Subject: ATM Fiends On A Spree Of Rip-Offs In-Reply-To: <20011118022843.A8236@die.com>; from die@die.com on Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 02:28:43AM -0500 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117223815.04f8d5f8@pop3.lvcm.com> <20011118022843.A8236@die.com> Message-ID: <20011118024211.A8480@die.com> On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 02:28:43AM -0500, Dave Emery wrote: > > This could be the explanation of the problem, as the protocol > problem has been known in at least some form for a year or so. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/descrack/ -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 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OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:1c.vgx.audch From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sun Nov 18 02:08:09 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 11:08:09 +0100 (MET) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111180052.TAA07856@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Faustine wrote: > Also, I wouldn't rule out the "intelligence divide" as a factor here: if half > the population has an IQ under 100, what are you doing to make your product Half the population? The distribution is not Gaussian (it's assymetrical, short-changing the smart tail), so if the maximum is defined to be 100 it's inaccurate. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sun Nov 18 02:51:35 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 11:51:35 +0100 (MET) Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011117174122.007c27b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote: > At 10:57 AM 11/17/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >Airport chemical "sniffers" apparently look for the signature of nitrogen > >compounds, not "explosives," per se. I've often wondered how many weekend Unless they look for nitrogen in bulk of the specimen (PGNAA), a very expensive/low-processivity technique unsuitable for mass luggage screening they're limited to stuff stuck to surfaces (lasers, swabbing/ion motility spectrometer) and volatile sniffers (chemical sensors, canines). Many classes of explosives contain no nitrogen, many of those which contain nitrogen and are free of volatile tracers don't emit much volatiles, if properly packaged even very volatile explosives (say, methyl or ethylnitrate) can be sealed (glass bottles). Generally, the maker and the packager, unless they work very cleanly/are suited should not be the courier, nor the outer containers be present in the contaminated area. In short, detection probability is only high for sloppy/dumb people. > >gardeners have gotten hassled and delayed because of trace amounts of > >ammonia-based fertilizers on their person and effects. If you plan to fly, Salts are different from traces of uncombusted nitrocellulose deposited on any surface of a nearby gun being fired. > >be sure to wash your hands thoroughly before heading out for the airport if > >you have been shoot, gardening or house cleaning. > > I've wondered about that too; airport sniffers must have encountered > Miracle Gro and angina nitro during the early days, measuring Nitroglycerin is not volatile, is present in large dilution (~0.1%) in small quanitities (pharma bottle). Ditto nitrate salts in a water solution. > a false alarm rate. Shooting is scary; you could contaminate > your car driving back from the range, then contaminate your > travel gear. I think you should be able to get a good positive if you'd fire several rounds of vanilla smokeless with baggage surface being near the muzzle of the gun. Try it sometime, if you're unafraid of winding up in a database. I've found that transporting computer parts (motherboard) in hand luggage can suffice to trigger swabbing (if you're really bored you can discuss detection of Semtex traces with airport security). > The explosives expert in one of the older terror trial docs on cryptome > says things suggesting that a few washes will remove traces. (And contaminate > clothes washed with them.) Just use an overall when you're at the range, and wash it separate. > I once checked out the screen on a sniffer, and they list "nitrates" > as a category. I suppose having PETN (another category) detected > on your laptop would be harder to explain :-) If you want to fool the security, you should become familiar with the type of detectors used on your luggage. Of course, best solution is using human factors to not have your stuff being screened at all. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sun Nov 18 03:09:49 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 12:09:49 +0100 (MET) Subject: Cypherpunk failures In-Reply-To: <20011117223246.D527@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > This is actually partly true -- even Freenet, perhaps the most > promising cypherpunkly project with live code right now, barely gets a > mention on the list. Mojonation is ailing, too. Barely a trickle of few posts/week on all mojo lists taken together. From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sun Nov 18 09:40:51 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 12:40:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > and the security departments of leading dot com and Net companies. Even > Mojo Nation, which had about half a dozen list members in it--not much > being heard from it now. I don't know about what's happening to Mojo Nation exactly, but it seemed to me that they were focusing on "P2P." Since that isn't doing so well these days, I'm not sure where they are. They were at the O'Reilly P2P conference earlier this month, but I wasn't, so I don't know what was said. > confused things, and now there are probably fewer PGP users than in > 1996. (Multiple versions, an OpenPGP version, a GPG effort, Zimmermann > at Hushmail, and NAI saying they plan to demphasize PGP....already a > moot point.) On the other hand, PGP integration with mailers and OS is further along than in 1996, at least on Windows. I use Outlook/PGP for work all the time. (On Unix, there's premail, some pgp/pine scripts, built-in mutt support, and I'm not sure what else). > efforts. (By the way, the only book that I know of on Peer-to-Peer > computing has references to the pioneering role that Cypherpunks played, > in remailers, in screen-saver code crackers, etc. Look to the archives > from 1992-94 and one will see most of the P2P issues covered, from the > point of view of distributed, agoric models, black markets, etc. My own > BlackNet, 1988, is obviously a P2P model.) Our chapter for that book included some of this. In retrospect it didn't include enough; in particular, omitting Ian Grigg and systemics, inc was a particularly bad oversight (and mostly mine). The second edition of the book was recently cancelled, unfortunately. -David From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Sun Nov 18 02:44:52 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 12:44:52 +0200 Subject: IP conference: copyright law has gone too far References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011117221109.04dc4008@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <02f201c1701e$0ecd9b50$5300a8c0@marcel> From: "Steve Schear" > IP conference: copyright law has gone too far > The recording industry and the Business Software Alliance squared off > against the Electronic Frontier Foundation and US Rep. Rick Boucher > Wednesday in a debate over laws such as the Digital Millennium Copyright > Act aimed at protecting large copyright holders, with the hearts and minds > of a crowd of Washington, D.C., decision-makers as the prize. > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/22876.html "I think I can safely say that history of the 21st Century is going to be about the struggle between open systems and closed systems, which was what you saw engaged on 11 September in a very pointed way," Barlow said. "This is going to be an interesting and complex struggle, because it is in the nature of open systems to breed closed systems, since for example, an open system like a free-market economy tends to gravitate toward a natural monopoly, which is a closed system." Too bad he's clueless. America seems to be divided between pro-government and anti-government lefties. And they're not even consistent about the camp they belong to. Mark From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sun Nov 18 09:58:44 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 12:58:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: NetCamo project Message-ID: http://netcamo.cs.tamu.edu/ "Within the NetCamo ( Network Camouflaging ) project, we study how to prevent traffic analysis in mission-critical QoS-guaranteed networks." Some of the people from this project gave a talk at the USENIX Security works-in-progress session on "a quantitative analysis of anonymous communications." Abstract is at: http://www.usenix.org/events/sec01/mcdaniel_wip.html Anyone else taken a look at these people? From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sun Nov 18 10:44:28 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:44:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pricing spare resources and options? Message-ID: Hey, The recent comments on Mojo Nation prompted me to look at their site again. I don't see much guidance on how to set prices for network services. There's a mention someplace that business customers will build pricing schemes on top of Mojo Nation, but not much indication of what these schemes might be. So what is the "right" way to price resources? (Preferably beyond the obvious "supply and demand.") Fleet announced at Hettinga's DCSB that they were developing some kind of spare resource market. I couldn't make it. Does anyone know whether they addressed this point? A related question - I ran into a friend of mine who had just finished an internship in options trading. He suggested it might be worth looking at options on spare disk space or other resources, as a means of figuring out how to make Mojo-type systems eventually profitable in the real world. Now I have a copy of Natenberg's _Option Volatility and Pricing_ to look at... -David From mv at cdc.gov Sun Nov 18 13:48:23 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:48:23 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: <3BF82CA6.292030D9@cdc.gov> At 09:59 PM 11/17/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: > >As for me, I'm a neo-Calvinist Nietzscheian. It is of little concern to >me whether crypto is dumbed-down to the point where Mr. Rogers uses it. Mr Rodgers is mourning the death of Mr. McFeely the speedy delivery man who succumbed to anthrax... There is a rumor that one of the teletubbies has an STU in his belly. Oscar the Grouch is on the FBI's watch list. ------- Druids worship trees. Reformed Druids worship shrubs and trees. Zen Druids worship imaginary trees. From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 18 14:07:05 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:07:05 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111182153.QAA15610@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <9A2800FC-DC70-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Sunday, November 18, 2001, at 01:53 PM, Faustine wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Faustine wrote: > Tim wrote: > >> Getting away fron digital cash for a moment, If you'd care to point me >> to any examples of crypto companies really focused and committed to >> developing >> applications that are commercially appealing to Joe Sixpack AOLuser, >> I'd be interested to hear about them. > >>> SSL/RSA built into every financial transaction with the common >>> browsers. >>> Visit Amazon, Ebay, etc., and note the secure connections. >>> User-transpaperent, of course, but then, of course, this is precisely >>> what a "Joe Sixpack AOLuser" [SIC] application _must_ be. Your quoting software (?) is still broken. You have the order wrong. > > You know as well as I do that the real push for improving transaction > security > is coming from commercial interests, not demand by the average user. You asked for an example, I gave a good one. As for who is asking for this, this is hard to say. Is the security of a bank vault being "asked for" by "commercial interests" or by "customers"? > I'm a neo-Schopenhauerian Cynic-Stoic eudaimonist. Which is entirely > beside the > point that if you or I were trying to _make money_ selling crypto > directly to > average home users, we certainly ought to put some real effort into > hiring > people who know what average home users really want and are comfortable > with. This was done _extensively_ by the PGP/NAI people and by others. They had staffs of people designing products, designing boxes for sale at computer stores, etc. You keep showing your basic unawareness of the past. > Even with a whole laundry list of reasons behind the recent troubles > (i.e. failures) of ZKS and Network Associates, I don't think you ought > to > dismiss the "intelligence divide" problem out of hand. Maybe you can, > but I > think it's still worth considering. Then contribute something more than saying that other people are not doing what they should be doing. Companies have been trying to convince the home computer user that they should be encrypting for years. Doesn't wrok. And for not very surprising reasons. Same thing seen in the home security business, backups, etc. (The average user doesn't make any backups. The average homeowner doesn't do any more to secure his house than what it came with. In other words, "the defaults." ) > >>> As usual, you just bullshit about things you obviously know little >>> about. Do some serious reading, get up to speed. > > As usual, you round things off with an rallying cry of > "whippersnapper!!!" > No problem, I know the drill. You keep chanting about "whippersnapper!" I have no idea how old you are...you could very well be one of those menopausal women who go back to grad school after being kicked out of the house...though usually they end up studying to become psychobabblers. Your problem is not your age, it's your ignorance of core issues. I suspect you are willfully uneducable. --Tim May "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." --Robert A. Heinlein From honig at sprynet.com Sun Nov 18 14:08:58 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:08:58 -0800 Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20011117174122.007c27b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011118140858.007d9c70@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:51 AM 11/18/01 +0100, Eugene Leitl wrote: >> >gardeners have gotten hassled and delayed because of trace amounts of >> >ammonia-based fertilizers on their person and effects. If you plan to fly, > >Salts are different from traces of uncombusted nitrocellulose deposited on >any surface of a nearby gun being fired. KNO3 is of interest to airport security eg in gunpowder. Similar salts are in fertilizer. Ergo the caution. Also, some of us have had a black powder addiction at one time. >Nitroglycerin is not volatile, is present in large dilution (~0.1%) in >small quanitities (pharma bottle). Ditto nitrate salts in a water >solution. If you just took an angina pill I imagine the mechanical noses can detect it on your hands or things you touch immediately afterwards. >I think you should be able to get a good positive if you'd fire several >rounds of vanilla smokeless with baggage surface being near the muzzle >of the gun. Or blackpowder (or noncorrosive powder substitutes).. or wore that clothing when setting off firecrackers... Try it sometime, if you're unafraid of winding up in a >database. :-) I've found that transporting computer parts (motherboard) in >hand luggage can suffice to trigger swabbing (if you're really bored you >can discuss detection of Semtex traces with airport security). Not out of San Jose Intl... but discussing Semtex (tm) could get you federal charges in the states... Actually I have seen someone set off the sniffer, the local airline rep came over, they chatted briefly, the person was on their way, maybe 30 extra seconds taken. San Jose again. > Of course, best solution is using human >factors to not have your stuff being screened at all. "Love work, hate domination, and do not let your name come to the attention of the ruling powers." -Talmud/Sayings of the Fathers From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net Sun Nov 18 12:17:28 2001 From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:17:28 -0600 Subject: The Crypto Winter References: <200111180425.XAA26214@mail.lokmail.net> <20011118132752.A8861@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <003e01c1706e$0c31fa80$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Economics 101 for those who don't/won't check the archives: The fundamental problem is Trust. The basic concept of money is to act as a proxy for the exchange of goods and services. Say a farmer needs medical attention and a doctor wants pork chops. Without "money" the farmer would have to pay the doctor with 100 bushels of grain (a good) for the doctor's expertise (a service). The doctor would then have to use the grain to pay another farmer for a pig, a butcher to kill it, and on and on. Obviously this is extremely inefficient (What's the farmer and doctor to do if the doctor already has a ton of grain, but really wants pork chops ?) "Money" allows the doctor to buy what he wants without transporting and storing a ton of grain, and without having to make several exchanges to finally get what he wants. BUT, This only works if everyone involved TRUSTS that the money's proxy value is stable, meaning that the value X mount of grain = Y dollars = Z number of pork chops remains relatively fixed over time (at least for the short-term of the transactions involved). In the past, this trust was facilitated by utilizing materials that were scarce and could not be obtained easily (gold, sliver, gems, pearls .etc.). To further improve efficiency this trust became based on scarce documents ( by virtue of not easily duplicated ) first representing an amount of the scarce materials mentioned above, and eventually becoming based on trust in the institution managing it (bank, government, etc.). Today, we are at the point where even the documents don't even need to exist, the value is represented as numbers in a computer somewhere. We just believe that when we use an ATM or a credit card that we will be provided the goods and services we desire. However, this trust is still mainly based on faith in the stability of a government ( with banks being granted a "license" to utilize that trust). In order for digital currency to become common place it must earn the same level of trust that existing money systems have. The problem is that the government has no interest in creating that trust and in fact has a bigger interest in preventing that trust from forming. So how do we develop this trust for digital cash ? Digicash tried tying back to the trust of existing money systems (unsuccessfully). E-gold, digi-gold, etc. are trying to tie back to the trust of scarce materials (the jury's still out, however they still risk problems with government interference). It would seem to me that digital cash would be better off not being tied either of these trust systems, but somehow develop it's own. Currently the only viable solution I'm aware of is an electronic version of "scarcity" by using unique serial numbers (using blinding techniques to preserve anonymity). However, this requires a "central authority" (either on-line or via smart cards) in order to determine whether the serial number has been already utilized and thus no longer has value. This requires that the users trust this authority to do its job. The "free-market" solution is to have many central authorities and allow users to decide which ones to trust. Authorities that maintain/improve trust will succeed, those that don't will fail. Much like banks long ago issued their own currencies. However, this won't provide the sort of ubiquitous trust that "Joe Six-Pack" is going to expect today. I don't know what the solution is, but I believe resolving this issue is the next breakthrough cypherpunks will need. -Neil From piolenc at mozcom.com Sat Nov 17 22:49:30 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:49:30 +0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device References: <200111171728.fAHHSv468831@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3BF759FA.1B6C03A6@mozcom.com> I think this stuff is already available as the download package PCNuDat. Marc de Piolenc keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote: > > When I was in high school, studying programming, a friend who worked at a weapons lab contractor gave me sample FORTRAN code to study for style. The huge stacks of print out were labled Nuclear Code Library (or something similar). The code comments contained references to cross sections and reaction rates. If I still have the stuff, unlikely, I'll OCR and post. From qatesters77 at aol.com Sun Nov 18 12:51:37 2001 From: qatesters77 at aol.com (qatesters77 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 15:51:37 -0500 Subject: "Software Testers& Deveopers-QA RUN,SILK,WINRUNNER,UNIX,-COBOL,PL1,SQL,DB2,LOTUS NOTES,SONET,JAVA,FOXPRO,AUTO CAD -CONTRACT-OR-TO HIRE" Message-ID: <1ldq5.0ivp3r4qux0y8@it-hourlyrates.com> From:- Gani Pola PCI Data Marketing Division 434 Ridgedale Avenue, PMB # 11-108 East Hanover NJ 07936 Tel: 1-888-248-3443 OR 1-888-713-7201 Fax:1-603-297-5644 mailto:qatesters77 at aol.com Attention: Recruiting Department/Human Resources Department ==========+++++++++=================+++++++++============== Please find our software consultant's brief information listed are available for contract or contract to hire positions. 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To ensure that you do not receive further email from us and wish to be removed from our list,please send us an e-mail mailto:qatesters77 at aol.com?subject=Remove..cypherpunks at algebra.com From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sun Nov 18 07:07:30 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:07:30 +0100 (MET) Subject: Who keeps a good list of Web anonymizers ? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 08:27:13 +0530 From: Udhay Shankar N To: Russell Turpin , fork at xent.com Subject: Re: Who keeps a good list of Web anonymizers ? At 05:30 PM 11/15/01 +0000, Russell Turpin wrote: >Of the traditional three on which I've relied, one doesn't >handle https, the second is no longer free, and the third >is so overused that it is useless during business hours. This list is incomplete and some links are definitely dead (I have checked all the links, just not for the past several months), but it is a good starting point. http://www.safeweb.com/ http://www.in.tum.de/~pircher/anonymouse/ http://www.anonymizer.com/ http://www.jmarshall.com/tools/cgiproxy/ http://www.idzap.com/ http://www.rewebber.de/ http://www.rewebber.com/ http://www.anon.de/ http://www.siegesoft.com/services/siegesurfer.htm http://www.webfringe.com/anon/ http://www.the-cloak.com/ HTH, Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com)) God is silent. Now if we can only get Man to shut up. http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Sun Nov 18 16:35:01 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:35:01 PST Subject: China Broadband (CBBD) - Profile Of The Week! Message-ID: <200111190040.AAA40314@s0213.pm0.net> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> NOVEMBER 19, 2001 - THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Dear Investor, Our last three profiles of: AMSE, CETA and EMBI have performed tremendously!!! Our new company spotlight is China Broadband (OTC BB:CBBD.OB) China Broadband CBBD has become the leading provider of cable broadband Internet services in China by way of its joint ventures partnerships with existing network operators. CBBD is positioned to be China’s most significant broadband Internet access provider; capitalizing and leveraging on its first mover advantage in China’s Internet broadband sector. China's recent addition to the WTO affirms CBBD position and future opportunity. CBBD is extremely optimistic about the Company for the short term and very excited about the Company’s future prospects. Savvy investors can immediately identify the potential of CBBD at its current valuation. The full company profile is below. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ China Broadband (OTC BB:CBBD.OB) Friday's Closing Price:$0.50 52-week Range: $0.40 - $9.50 Company Homepage: http://www.chinabroadband.com Contact Info: ir at chinabroadband.com To Read The Full Write-up Go Here: http://si1.streetinsider.com/index.cfm?method=site_profilesCurrent ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ABOUT CHINA BROADBAND (OTC BB: CBBD.OB) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ China Broadband, through its wholly owned operational subsidiary Big Sky Network Canada Ltd. (“Big Sky Network”), provides cable broadband Internet services in partnership with existing network operators to China’s residential and business Internet market. By taking advantage of existing network infrastructure, particularly China’s modern hybrid fibre-optic coaxial (HFC) cable television architecture, China Broadband provides reliable access to the Internet at a fraction of the cost and many times the speed of the current telephone line (dial-up) alternative. As the purchase of networks by foreign companies is not permitted, China Broadband forms co-operative joint ventures with government owned network companies, which have the sole right to offer Internet access and value-added services. Under these joint ventures, the Chinese partner contributes the exclusive access to the network, while China Broadband contributes the required capital, management and Internet technology to enable Internet access once all government approvals have been received. The capital China Broadband contributes is limited to the hardware to enable Internet access. As a result the Company obtains exclusive access while avoiding the sizeable network installation and maintenance costs. China Broadband enjoys favorable terms under these joint ventures, including 60 to 80 percent profit sharing, board control and a 15 to 20 year term. The resulting footprint of cable television subscribers the Company has under agreement is in excess of 14 million, representing approximately 15 percent of China’s 90 million cable subscribers; the largest cable market in the world (65 million in North America). Given this large exclusive footprint and the rapidly increasing demand for Internet in China (400 percent per year) China Broadband should achieve its minimum target penetration levels of one million subscribers in the first 5 years and significant growth thereafter. The Company charges its subscribers up to US$22 per month. With average subscriber acquisition costs of less than US$255, the Company believes it will achieve rapid pay out and be profitable within its first two years of operation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ KEY INDUSTRY / COMPANY CONSIDERATIONS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * Positioned to be both China’s most significant broadband Internet access provider * CATV subscriber footprint of +14 million * Capitalizing and leveraging on its first mover advantage in China’s Internet broadband sector * Proven Management Team * First fully approved deployment in Shekou, Shenzhen * Fully approved and deployed in Chengdu, Sichuan, Beijing, Shanghai and Chongqing municipalities signed MOU’s (memorandum of understanding) * Hunan and Fujian Province MOU’s * Superior product (+50x speed, reliable, affordable, always on) * Target of + 1,000,000 subscribers by 2005, significant growth thereafter exceeding US penetration * Co-operative Joint Ventures to avoid infrastructure costs * Exceptional Joint Venture Terms; exclusivity, profit sharing, 15 to 20 year long term contracts * Financing at NAV and Comparables, * Value added services revenues * EBITA positive early, profitable 4th quarter 2001 * IP Telephony Revenue potential, Mother of all Markets * Well positioned to take advantage of China’s ascension to the World Trade Organization (“WTO”) * US $11.8 million raised to date, cash position $2.8 million, no debt, approx. $150k /month burn rate ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ INVESTMENT SUMMARY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Company has no debt, raised US$11.8 million to date and has $2.8 million in cash and an approximate burn rate of $150k/mth. With a market capitalization of approximately $15 million (based on fully diluted shares) China Broadband can offer investors substantial upside potential if the Company can deliver on its business plan and rapidly convert its exclusive and existing cable subscriber footprint to Internet broadband subscribers. Over the past year China Broadband’s stock has lacked visibility and has been flying under the market radar while management has been quietly executing its business plan, signing joint ventures, and rolling out service. As well, it has been caught like many companies in the general down draft of the Internet / broadband / fiber-optic blow off and the market has not recognized the prospects of Company’s cash flow valuation. The stock price is down significantly from its peak of US$9.50 for a variety of market reasons discussed in this profile. However we feel the current stock price could go higher based on; the favorable economics of China Broadband’s business model, the Company’s unprecedented CATV footprint of 14 million and growing cable subscribers, and China’s WTO ascension this year. China Broadband is consequently extremely well positioned to be both China and the world’s most significant broadband Internet access provider. We therefore are positive about the Company for the short term and remain optimistic about the Company’s prospects and progress in the Chinese broadband market. China Broadband, under Matthew Heysel’s leadership, has built up an impressive team of senior managers and directors to guide the Company. They have taken the Company from start-up to its current state and the current team appears more than capable of bringing the Company through its next phase of growth to profitability. +>+>+> TO READ THE FULL WRITE UP GO HERE: http://si1.streetinsider.com/index.cfm?method=site_profilesCurrent >>===================================>> DISCLAIMER Wallstreet Universe is an independent electronic publication providing information on selected companies. All statements and expressions are the opinion of Wallstreet Universe and are not meant to be either investment advice or a solicitation or recommendation to buy, sell, or hold securities. Investing in micro-cap securities is highly speculative and carries an extremely high degree of risk. Wallstreet Universe is not a registered investment advisor or a broker dealer. It is possible that an investor's investment may be lost or impaired due to the speculative nature of the companies profiled. This report relies on information provided by the featured Companies and/or third parties. While Wallstreet Universe believes its sources to be reliable, we make no representation or warranty as to the accuracy of the information provided. Readers should not rely solely on the information contained in this publication, but should consult with their own independent tax, business and financial advisors with respect to any investment opportunity, including any contemplated investment in the advertised Company. Factual statements in this publication are made as of the date stated and are subject to change without notice. Wallstreet Universe is not responsible for any claims made by the Company. We have prepared this report, drawing upon a range of public news, the company's website and information from sources in the industry, as well as data and opinions provided by the company. Wallstreet Universe has not independently verified the Company's representations. Any opinions expressed in this report are statements of judgment as of the date of publication. We urge readers to carefully verify all presentations within the report independently. The receipt of this publication shall not create, under any circumstances, any implication that there has been no change in the affairs of the company profiled since the date of review. This advertisement does not provide an analysis of the Company's financial position. Wallstreet Universe was paid up to $2000 for this report by The Street Insider. Furthermore, associates of Wallstreet Universe may have stock positions on profiled companies from time to time. We may profit in the event the shares of the Company profiled by us increase in value. These positions may be liquidated from time to time even after we have made positive comments regarding the Company. The receipt of this information constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions. SAFE HARBOR FOR FORWARD-LOOKING STATEMENTS: Except for historical information contained herein, the statements on this website and newsletter are forward-looking statements that are made pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Reform Act of 1995. Forward-looking statements involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties, which may cause a company's actual results in the future periods to differ materially from forecasted results. These risks and uncertainties include, among other things, product price volatility, product demand, market competition and risk inherent in the companies operations. You can identify these statements by the fact that they do not relate strictly to historical or current facts. They use words such as "anticipate," "estimate," "expect," "project," "intend," "plan," "anticipate," "guess," "think," "hear," "suggest," "believe" and other words and terms of similar meaning in connection with any discussion of future operating or financial performance. >>===================================================>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.vo8.37kh From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 18 17:11:49 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 17:11:49 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <003e01c1706e$0c31fa80$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3BF7EBD5.7100.1CEF9AC@localhost> -- On 18 Nov 2001, at 14:17, Neil Johnson wrote: > So how do we develop this trust for digital cash ? > > Digicash tried tying back to the trust of existing money > systems (unsuccessfully). > > E-gold, digi-gold, etc. are trying to tie back to the trust > of scarce materials (the jury's still out, however they > still risk problems with government interference). > > It would seem to me that digital cash would be better off > not being tied either of these trust systems, but somehow > develop it's own. That is a really dumb idea. It took governments a generation and the vigorous and frequent application of bayonets and batons to render their money independent of precious metals. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG HWZrWSsAECQYOhbEOdzn68LV+4EVY56x+/MZAr+I 4mq9Iv3m66eP76TGgN4RHyt3mymV7+eJzd82uVmIR From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 18 20:29:35 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 20:29:35 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111190148.TAA26821@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3BF81A2F.30003.700496@localhost> -- On 18 Nov 2001, at 14:17, Neil Johnson wrote: > > > It would seem to me that digital cash would be better off > > > not being tied either of these trust systems, but somehow > > > develop it's own. James A. Donald: > > That is a really dumb idea. > > > > It took governments a generation and the vigorous and > > frequent application of bayonets and batons to render their > > money independent of precious metals. Anonymous: > but why did governments engage in the vigorous and frequent > application of bayonets and batons to render their money > independent of precious metals? Because they could. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG e14ZjXqdjvPhGbY7gUaOBA42wTiDnGWfnEJ2q84q 4dPLVHJB12eAfQgOC1preE0ABpS1HIjeAfHn/qQN8 From cypherpunks at web-cyat.com Sun Nov 18 20:41:15 2001 From: cypherpunks at web-cyat.com (cypherpunks at web-cyat.com) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 20:41:15 Subject: GUARANTEED ways to have more MONEY for the HOLIDAY SEASON!! Time:8:41:15 PM Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 728 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at dizum.com Sun Nov 18 12:00:25 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:00:25 +0100 (CET) Subject: Pricing spare resources and options? Message-ID: <5f79a43790314774ee0819d6bcada1b2@dizum.com> David Molnar writes: > The recent comments on Mojo Nation prompted me to look at their site > again. I don't see much guidance on how to set prices for network > services. There's a mention someplace that business customers will build > pricing schemes on top of Mojo Nation, but not much indication of what > these schemes might be. > > So what is the "right" way to price resources? (Preferably beyond the > obvious "supply and demand.") In a competitive market, prices will tend to stabilize at the cost to the supplier, plus profit. Demand comes in by setting the production level, which in turn influences costs due to economies of scale and diminishing returns. However at least initially the resources supplied via network services, like storage, will be a small part of the overall market and so network demand will not affect costs much and we can treat them as fixed and given. The price of a network service, then, should be roughly the cost to the provider based on today's market prices. This will be derived from the initial costs divided by the depreciation period, plus ongoing costs. With disk drive prices dropping so rapidly they probably should be depreciated in just a couple of years despite the fact that they will last longer. So at about $100 for 50 GB for two years the cost would be $2 per GB of data stored per year. Then you'd add in your network costs, divided by the number of users for a per-user cost, and costs of other fixed equipment like the computer itself, appropriately depreciated. > A related question - I ran into a friend of mine who had just finished an > internship in options trading. He suggested it might be worth looking at > options on spare disk space or other resources, as a means of figuring out > how to make Mojo-type systems eventually profitable in the real world. Now > I have a copy of Natenberg's _Option Volatility and Pricing_ to look at... Generally the purpose of futures and options, in the big picture, is to allow management of risk. People can protect themselves against price changes by transferring the risk to speculators. (Of course each market participant has his own motivations, but collectively this is the emergent behavior which justifies options trading.) Disk space doesn't seem to be a very good candidate for options because its price has so far been very stable and predictable. We don't see too many price spikes in the disk drive market that someone might want to protect themselves against. The prices follow a generally consistent Moore's law although the exact rate of decline varies somewhat from year to year. Similarly, with other computer commodities like CPU and network bandwidth, price trends are generally stable. A more promising candidate might be RAM memory options. RAM prices has been somewhat volatile over the past decade and computer manufacturers might benefit from an option market to purchase risk protection. But it's certainly not going to be at the scale of the currency, stock index and agricultural futures and options which are widely traded today. From swissteller at hotmail.com Sun Nov 18 21:11:40 2001 From: swissteller at hotmail.com (SwissTeller ATM) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:11:40 -0800 Subject: Anonymous Banking Opportunity Message-ID: <200111190313.TAA18741@toad.com> SwissTeller

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$250 or more earns .8% per month

 

 

Swiss Savings
(Business & Personal)

 

  • Minimum Deposit: $2,500.00 
  • Earns up to 2% Per Month


SwissTeller ATM opens savings accounts for anonymous member depositors for specfic time periods.  Our Swiss Savins accounts give you access to your interest earned on a monthly basis.  These plans are especially attractive due to the monthly interest earned (up to 2% per month)

6 month Swiss Savings Account
$2,500 -$5,000 earns 1% per month
$5,000 - $25,000 earns 1.5% per month
$25,000 -$50,000 earns 2% per month

 

Swiss Gold
(Business & Personal)

 

  • Minimum Deposit: $10,000.00 
  • Earns up to 3% Per Month
    fee's


Our Swiss Gold Accounts are our most popular account.  This account pays interest of up to 36% per year.

 

1 year Swiss Gold Savings Account
$10,000 -$25,000 earns 1.75% per month
$25,000 - $50,000 earns 2.25% per month
$50,000 or more earns 3% per month

 

Broker Participation

From johndoe2 at mail.anonymizer.com Sun Nov 18 19:25:07 2001 From: johndoe2 at mail.anonymizer.com (John Doe Number Two) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:25:07 -0600 Subject: Cypherpunk failures In-Reply-To: <3BF83317.8FE63295@cdc.gov> Message-ID: Begin Fair Use quote of Major Variola (ret) aka mv at cdc.gov written on 18.11.01 16:15 : > At 01:34 PM 11/18/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 08:03:49PM -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: >>> So though the cypherpunks list is moribund, and cypherpunks >>> are no longer fashionable, >> >> True. The DC cypherpunks are thinking of changing their name to > something >> more cuddly. There are cypherpunks in DC? Someone warn Declan. "Insert the usual disclaimer here." Key ID: 0x8EF048F5 4093 Bit DH/DSS Fingerprint: CC8F 8D2C E1A3 6555 7438 B456 D00E A83C 8EF0 48F5 From Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn Sun Nov 18 21:46:00 2001 From: Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn (Stealth123 at btamail.net.cn) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:46:00 Subject: Control your own web hosting! Message-ID: <200111190456.UAA21148@toad.com> Hello, Your webcentral.com delivers quality end-to-end web hosting solutions to solve day-to-day personal and business problems. Yourwebcentral's home office is located in San Diego, California. A privately held, family owned business, Yourwebcentral provides the mechanism necessary to take your web sites to there highest potential. Personal web sites start at just $10.00 Per month with no setup fee. Small business web sites at just $29.70 Per month with no setup fee. We will host ANY site for ANY one, ANYWHERE, WE WILL NOT HOST "Kiddie Porn" WEBSITES Contact yourwebcentral.com today for more information about services. mailto:sales at yourwebcentral.com To be removed, Reply with "Remove" in the "Subject" field! From mean-green at hushmail.com Sun Nov 18 21:57:16 2001 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:57:16 -0800 Subject: De-Macrovisioning Hardware Message-ID: <200111190557.fAJ5vGN34522@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 10:31 PM 11/18/2001 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >A number of people are selling the "Sima SED-CM" for anywhere between $25 and $60, which will supposedly remove Level 1 Macrovision. Sima makes a more pricey device, the "Color Corrector" which claims it will remove both level 1 and Level 2. >Does anyone have any experience with either of these? I've got diagrams for building my own device, but estimate parts at a minimum of $80, not accounting for soldering time. (I'm specifically looking for a device that will take RCA in, perform its job, and give me an RCA out.) I've had a Sima SCC for over six months. It works flawlessly on every DVD I've thrown at it. >Until very recently, when I acquired a new laptop with a DVD player, I was oblivious to the fact that content providers had so thoroughly spread their poison as to reach the legitimate attempts of user Alice to route her laptop's tv-out through Alice's vcr, so as to watch a DVD on a 21" tv instead of a 14" LCD. >Plan B is, of course, to continue ripping DVDs to my HDD, remove the Macrovision, and contribute the compressed results to the body of DivX ;-) works out there. I tried DivX but later changed to sVCD. At the higher bit rates its virtually broadcast quality, much better than VHS (even S-VHS), and you can cut CDs to play on many home theater DVDs and on any Windows laptop using PowerDVD. Great for time shifting your DVD rentals ;-) From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Sun Nov 18 22:30:56 2001 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:30:56 -0800 Subject: Pricing spare resources and options? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011118220052.03a2f6e0@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 01:44 PM 11/18/2001 -0500, dmolnar wrote: >The recent comments on Mojo Nation prompted me to look at their site >again. I don't see much guidance on how to set prices for network >services. There's a mention someplace that business customers will build >pricing schemes on top of Mojo Nation, but not much indication of what >these schemes might be. > >So what is the "right" way to price resources? (Preferably beyond the >obvious "supply and demand.") Unfortunately, one of the evolutionary steps in Mojo Nation's development has been their abandonment, for the most part, of user-visible and user-configurable economics; they deliberately made it difficult to see how many Mojo are held by the local broker, and relatively unlikely that a broker will be able to earn significant Mojo by careful pricing - recent clients are configured such that the economic brakes on resource usage are sharply curtailed or removed entirely. It's my impression that, given the changes in the venture capital and software markets, they've refocused their efforts away from P2P filesharing and towards speedy realtime content delivery, whereby people with limited net connections can maximize their incoming bandwidth by pulling (or getting pushes) from multiple other parties simultaneously, somewhat similar to what Morpheus/Kazaa are doing, or what Bram Cohen (a Mojo Nation alumnus) is doing with BitTorrent. The economics seemed to attract people who wanted to experiment with pricing, etc., but that wasn't necessarily a market or constituency which is interesting to investors or businesspeople. >A related question - I ran into a friend of mine who had just finished an >internship in options trading. He suggested it might be worth looking at >options on spare disk space or other resources, as a means of figuring out >how to make Mojo-type systems eventually profitable in the real world. Now >I have a copy of Natenberg's _Option Volatility and Pricing_ to look at... It seems like there ought to be an interesting market here, but I know and worked with several people (with good financial backgrounds) who flogged this for awhile and never got anywhere. I guess a big part of the problem is that there's such a big difference in the perceived value of a megabyte/month of online storage .. if you're on the provider side, you think that's pretty expensive, as you've got the investment & etc required in building a data center, providing bandwidth to reach customers, paying staff, etc - but if you're on the customer side, you look at an 80 Gb drive at Fry's in the Sunday newspaper for $160 and think about a $500 1.5mb/s frame relay connection, and wonder why the service guys want $3 per Mb/month .. and then the Mojo guys come along and make it sound like the people with the cheap frame relay connections and commodity PC hardware ought to be able to set up data centers in their back bedrooms or on their old laptops, but so far all of the business models proposed involve paying those guys up front for an indefinite period of storage, so there's no strong incentive to actually store the data for long, especially not if you can resell that same disk space 3 or 4 or 50 times. Seems like the guys who really have hard data about options for bandwidth and disk usage are the disaster recovery guys. And that market hasn't been so great lately either, Comdisco declared bankruptcy and is their disaster recovery unit is getting swallowed up by Sungard, I think. Anyway, yeah, the Enron guys thought there was something interesting to be done in bandwidth futures, too, but I don't know if they ever really got anything done before their demise beyond some demonstration projects. -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Sun Nov 18 13:41:02 2001 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:41:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cookbooks and Pigs (Was Re: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device) Message-ID: <4f5afca9061e8f15fbe0bceee08a0e41@remailer.privacy.at> Tim wrote: > The bomb instructions Joe provided are as accurate as most recipes in > "The Anarchist Cookbook." > > (A book my local Sheriff's Department banned in 1970.) How did the Sheriff's Department manage to do this? From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Sun Nov 18 23:07:14 2001 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:07:14 -0800 Subject: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal In-Reply-To: <023601c170b0$adbd3da0$f87ce420@raleigh.ibm.com> References: <426bade14cabb31519c263b9ca611a5b@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011118230144.03c68b90@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 11:14 PM 11/18/2001 -0500, Peter Capelli wrote: >Okay, here's a question from a 'stupid fuck'; Did *you* read the order? >Check out Section 7 (a) (3): > >Sec. 7. Relationship to Other Law and Forums. > >(a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to -- > >(1) authorize the disclosure of state secrets to any person not otherwise >authorized to have access to them; >(2) limit the authority of the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed >Forces or the power of the President to grant reprieves and pardons; or > >(3) limit the lawful authority of the Secretary of Defense, any military >commander, or any other officer or agent of the United States or of any >State to detain or try any person who is not an individual subject to this >order. > > >Now I am not a lawyer, but doesn't that mean that this can be applied to >anyone? No, it means it's not meant to alter people's pre-existing status vis-a-vis detentions or trials; if they didn't include a clause like that, then people would argue that the executive order didn't just add to existing law, but replaced it, such that previously possible prosecutions would no longer be possible since they weren't explicitly permitted in the EO. The crucial language is "limit the lawful authority", where the scope of the pre-existing "lawful authority" may be tiny or nonexistent. It's not correct to assume that there's (necessarily) any such lawful authority, absent other facts (like a declaration of martial law, or a person's status as a member of the military, etc.) -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From pcapelli at nsec.net Sun Nov 18 20:14:25 2001 From: pcapelli at nsec.net (Peter Capelli) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:14:25 -0500 Subject: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal References: <426bade14cabb31519c263b9ca611a5b@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <023601c170b0$adbd3da0$f87ce420@raleigh.ibm.com> Okay, here's a question from a 'stupid fuck'; Did *you* read the order? Check out Section 7 (a) (3): Sec. 7. Relationship to Other Law and Forums. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to -- (1) authorize the disclosure of state secrets to any person not otherwise authorized to have access to them; (2) limit the authority of the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces or the power of the President to grant reprieves and pardons; or (3) limit the lawful authority of the Secretary of Defense, any military commander, or any other officer or agent of the United States or of any State to detain or try any person who is not an individual subject to this order. Now I am not a lawyer, but doesn't that mean that this can be applied to anyone? -p ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anonymous" To: Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal > Jei writes: > > > I thought this would be relevant to the list members. > > > > http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html > > > > http://cryptome.org/pmo111301.htm > > > > http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/11/13/193921.shtml > > > > And what is a Crypto Terrorist, you ask? Of course, > > it is someone who hides things with cryptography, > > e.g. a potential Cyber Terrorist. ;-P > > > > At 9:07 PM -0500 11/14/01, Andrew C. Greenberg wrote: > > >I saw the part in article III about one supreme court and subsidiary > > >courts. Sorry, where, exactly, does it say that military tribunals have > > >jurisdiction over civilians? > > Read the fucking order at cryptome: > > Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War > Against Terrorism > > See that? "Non-Citizens", you stupid fucks! What a barrel of retards > we've got around here. > > ************************************************************************************************** The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies. ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** ************************************************************************************************** From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 18 23:52:26 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:52:26 -0800 Subject: Ralph Merkle on Radio - Art Bell, Tuesday Night/ Wed Morning Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011118235121.0331c2d0@idiom.com> Forwarded: ----------- Art Bell is having Ralph Merkle, Stanford PhD, the co-inventor of public key cryptography as a guest, Tuesday night/Wednesday morning. The SF station that carries him is 560am. ----------- From onesourcepromo at mediaone.net Sun Nov 18 16:00:00 2001 From: onesourcepromo at mediaone.net (One Source Telecom) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 00:00:00 +0000 Subject: (No Subject) Message-ID: <200111190747.fAJ7ltn06072@jxmls04.se.mediaone.net> Untitled

-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 220 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Sun Nov 18 22:43:22 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:43:22 -0500 Subject: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal In-Reply-To: <023601c170b0$adbd3da0$f87ce420@raleigh.ibm.com>; from pcapelli@nsec.net on Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 11:14:25PM -0500 References: <426bade14cabb31519c263b9ca611a5b@noisebox.remailer.org> <023601c170b0$adbd3da0$f87ce420@raleigh.ibm.com> Message-ID: <20011119014322.A29612@cluebot.com> I think it's unclear, perhaps even intentionally ambiguous. One way of reading the executive order (that section of it, at least) is that it preserves the ability of the DoD to try members of the military in a different form of tribunal that might have more procedural safeguards, and that it preserves the authority of civilian courts. That is the more, um, benign interpretation. The other interpretation is that Bush does not want to limit the power of the military to try civilian U.S. citizens in some cases, subject to "lawful authority." The thing is, though, that if Bush intends to try the second approach, focusing on that paragraph is maybe misguided: If he's daring enough to do it without explicit Congressional sanction, then he can just sign another exeucitve order. Only take him a few minutes to write one and scribble his signature. -Declan http://www.politechbot.com/p-02797.html On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 11:14:25PM -0500, Peter Capelli wrote: > Okay, here's a question from a 'stupid fuck'; Did *you* read the order? > Check out Section 7 (a) (3): > > Sec. 7. Relationship to Other Law and Forums. > > (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to -- > > (1) authorize the disclosure of state secrets to any person not otherwise > authorized to have access to them; > (2) limit the authority of the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed > Forces or the power of the President to grant reprieves and pardons; or > > (3) limit the lawful authority of the Secretary of Defense, any military > commander, or any other officer or agent of the United States or of any > State to detain or try any person who is not an individual subject to this > order. > > > Now I am not a lawyer, but doesn't that mean that this can be applied to > anyone? > > -p > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anonymous" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 3:24 PM > Subject: Re: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal > > > > Jei writes: > > > > > I thought this would be relevant to the list members. > > > > > > http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html > > > > > > http://cryptome.org/pmo111301.htm > > > > > > http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/11/13/193921.shtml > > > > > > And what is a Crypto Terrorist, you ask? Of course, > > > it is someone who hides things with cryptography, > > > e.g. a potential Cyber Terrorist. ;-P > > > > > > At 9:07 PM -0500 11/14/01, Andrew C. Greenberg wrote: > > > >I saw the part in article III about one supreme court and subsidiary > > > >courts. Sorry, where, exactly, does it say that military tribunals > have > > > >jurisdiction over civilians? > > > > Read the fucking order at cryptome: > > > > Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War > > Against Terrorism > > > > See that? "Non-Citizens", you stupid fucks! What a barrel of retards > > we've got around here. > > > > > > ************************************************************************************************** > The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. > It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. > If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the > sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies. > > ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** > ************************************************************************************************** From declan at well.com Sun Nov 18 22:52:41 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:52:41 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111182216.RAA20824@mail.lokmail.net>; from faustine@lokmail.net on Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:16:54PM -0500 References: <200111182216.RAA20824@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <20011119015241.B29612@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:16:54PM -0500, Faustine wrote: > On a scale of 1 to 10, how likely do you think it is that these > problems will be resolved in, say, the next decade? Where are the > people most likely to make it happen? Fascinating stuff. Huh? In my message, to which you replied, I said something like "governments will not allow true anonymous digital cash to be deployed, at least within their borders." There's no time limit, at least a near-term limit, on that particular prediction. How can this "problem" be resolved? I'm not sure it can, at least if governments insist on the regulatory trappings of the modern nation-state: Acting against "tax havens," insisting on infringing upon financial privacy in the name of thwarting tax evasion, money laundering, drug smuggling, and now terrorism, and so on. Perhaps if the tax system were to change to one centered on property taxes, anonymous digital cash would be less threatening to the tax structure, but then you have the other problems like the canonical kidnapping-extortion-assassination ones that have been discussed before and would cause law enforcement to step in with regulatory escrow demands. Scale of 1 to 10? 2. -Declan From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net Mon Nov 19 00:54:58 2001 From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:54:58 -0600 Subject: The Crypto Winter References: <3BF81A2F.30003.700496@localhost> Message-ID: <002801c170d7$de524e20$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Well (jamesd's "because they can" comment not withstanding) the stated reason for uncoupling money from precious metal was to allow the government greater flexibility in controlling the supply of money. Supposedly they could increase the amount of money available when times were bad (to make things better) or decrease it during good times (to prevent inflation). Of course it also allowed them (the government) to buy things without raising taxes (just print more money), but they got burned when it led to inflation in the 70's. Check out Menard Keynes (sp?). Although I'm pretty sure most people on this list consider his ideas blasphemy :) . There are still a lot people that believe the U.S. should return to the "Gold Standard" meaning the amount of money in circulation should equal the amount of gold held by the U.S. government. That's what Fort Knox was originally for. Seesh 3:00 AM better get to bed. -Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 10:29 PM Subject: Re: The Crypto Winter > -- > On 18 Nov 2001, at 14:17, Neil Johnson wrote: > > > > It would seem to me that digital cash would be better off > > > > not being tied either of these trust systems, but somehow > > > > develop it's own. > > James A. Donald: > > > That is a really dumb idea. > > > > > > It took governments a generation and the vigorous and > > > frequent application of bayonets and batons to render their > > > money independent of precious metals. > > Anonymous: > > but why did governments engage in the vigorous and frequent > > application of bayonets and batons to render their money > > independent of precious metals? > > Because they could. > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > e14ZjXqdjvPhGbY7gUaOBA42wTiDnGWfnEJ2q84q > 4dPLVHJB12eAfQgOC1preE0ABpS1HIjeAfHn/qQN8 From freematt at coil.com Mon Nov 19 00:18:09 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 03:18:09 -0500 Subject: MTV To Get Message Out In Arab World Message-ID: [Note from Matthew Gaylor: This is perhaps the only spike in destabilizing and de-radicalizing religious intolerants that has a good chance of working- A culture attack aimed at their kids. The US already heavily pays for programming insertions in the American media market mostly against drug use so this is a natural extension- MTV is a prime propaganda target with anti-drug and anti-violence (really anti-gun) story lines and media products, such as CDs, CD-ROMs, being financed by the Justice Dept. I've actually advocated that efforts be made to make such programming available in totalitarian countries via unblocked and unscrambled satellite feeds. The Red Chinese currently have a problem trying to stem the flow of mini-satellite dishes- To which I say tough luck.] Monday November 19 12:54 AM ET U.S. wants its MTV to get message out in Arab world By Pamela McClintock WASHINGTON (Variety) - The architects of the government's post-Sept. 11 propaganda war may well want their MTV on the frontlines in the Arab world. Rushing to shift perceptions of the United States in the Islamic world, Washington and Hollywood are now brainstorming about how the entertainment business might help convey a wider -- and more positive -- range of perceptions about America. And no demo is more crucial to the future of Islamic-Western relations than the 15-30 age group. That's where MTV comes in. [...] ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From actionj6d5 at mail.com Sun Nov 18 23:21:58 2001 From: actionj6d5 at mail.com (Garnet Jackson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 03:21:58 -0400 Subject: To Be Or Not To Be ... The Age Old Question!! Message-ID: <200111200849.CAA03832@einstein.ssz.com> My Dear Friend, With the world economy melting down it may be time for you to start considering a home based business. Ask yourself, "If I don't do this now, where will I be in 6 months, a year, 5 years down the road?" This is no time to put off building your future! Do it now! It's Within Your Reach! CONSIDER: You wouldn't be reading this message if you were satisfied with your current income. Can you really afford NOT to at least take a look? DID YOU KNOW? The US Social Security Board reports that 85 out of 100 Americans reaching age 65 don't possess as much as $250. And only 2% are self-sustaining (the rest dependent on family, church, or the government)! Want to know what the "2-percenters" know that you don't? Many people don't need to make extra money. I've never personally met any, but I've heard they're out there. Maybe you are one in which case please let me know the secret. I can offer you three alternatives, one that is totally free and the other requiring a small investment. If I told you that you could turn a $99.00 investment into a 7 figure income in 1 year, you probably would not believe it! But what if I could show you step by step how it is done? Would you be willing to take the time to review the program? You will be Amazed at how simple it is! And this is just the beginning...You will be in a position to earn more than you ever imagined because...OUR PRODUCT IS PROFIT!!! Just use this link.. mailto:actionj at mail.com?subject=SEND ME THE ANSWER The information will be sent to you for your immediate attention! This is not an autoresponder. Incidentally should you wish to be removed please click on the link below mailto:actionj at mail.com?subject=REMOVE C FILE Garnet Jackson From funnymoney.10 at reply.pm0.net Mon Nov 19 03:46:03 2001 From: funnymoney.10 at reply.pm0.net (FunnyMoney) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 03:46:03 PST Subject: Find Great Gifts at ebay.com today! Message-ID: <200111191835.SAA18097@s0231.pm0.net> Click here to join eBay! -- Great Gifts for the Holidays! Dear NetSurfer, During this upcoming holiday season,funnymoney.com is teaming up with eBay to help you find great Holiday Gifts. Don't wait until last minute this year. Only eBay offers you a great selection and great prices in over 4,000 categories. Right now you can get the goods you've always wanted at prices you can afford. Here are some of the many items that can be found: Camcorders, DVD Players, Video Games, Toys, Gift Baskets, Jewelry, And More... Whatever you're looking for, eBay will have it. It's FREE and easy to join eBay. Just complete a short registration form and you can bid, buy, sell, and take part in great community events. For a great selection at awesome prices, click now, join eBay, and let the bidding begin! Click here to join eBay now: <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?funnymoney:10 * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "funnymoney:10". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:1c.v9r.audch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8051 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gytabai at yahoo.com Mon Nov 19 05:55:20 2001 From: gytabai at yahoo.com (geeta jagasia) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 05:55:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20011119135520.91521.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> send me details to my email gytabai at indiatimes.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com From mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net Sun Nov 18 23:04:22 2001 From: mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net (Anonymous Coredump) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:04:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: You bought something. Nobody knows what it was. Message-ID: <48505ebad89698a79dacfad589347e11@remailer.segfault.net> Seen on another list: > Saw a paper the other day by some Chinese dudes. Talked about how to sell > dox online so that the seller don't know what the buyer's gettin, see? > > All the dox are on the net for every Tom Harry Dick to look at. But, > the catch is they're RSA encrypted to Mr. Seller, just like normal: > symmetric cipher on the doc and wrap the key in RSA. Now, Mr. Buyer > wants one, so he pays (however) and here's the trick. Buyer asks Seller > to decrypt some random RSA data, which of course is, ta da, a BLINDED > version of the RSA data Buyer actually wants! Get it? > > You pays your money and you gets your choice of one, count em, (1) > RSA decryption. Blind it and Seller can't tell what you're buyin. > > Simple idea. Why didn't I think of that? Kick self. From funnymoney.10 at reply.pm0.net Mon Nov 19 08:10:08 2001 From: funnymoney.10 at reply.pm0.net (FunnyMoney) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:10:08 PST Subject: Bills pilling up? Message-ID: <200111201220.MAA02300@s0319.pm0.net> Past or present credit problems? Bills pilling up? Bankruptcy? Behind on your mortgage payments? Been turned down by your local bank or broker? Fill out the following application and someone will be in contact within 24 hours to assist! http://www.eloangroup.com/debt.asp AOL Users Click Here <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?funnymoney:10 * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "funnymoney:10". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:1c.vto.audch From grobe at netins.net Mon Nov 19 06:21:10 2001 From: grobe at netins.net (Jonathan Grobe) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:21:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [BI] Goverment asking libraries to destroy government reports Message-ID: Not only is the government removing much material from its websites it is also asking depository libraries (which are sent government reports free) to remove and destroy many government reports--because of the recent terrorist incidents. Any comments? Any bookdealers destroying books which they think might be useful to terrorists? http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-111801inform.story Here is a discussion about this at Slashdot (a popular discussion forum for computer nerds). http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/11/18/2258258&mode=thread -- Jonathan Grobe -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Sun Nov 18 23:41:46 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:41:46 +0200 Subject: You bought something. Nobody knows what it was. References: <48505ebad89698a79dacfad589347e11@remailer.segfault.net> Message-ID: <006c01c170cd$a4045b00$5300a8c0@marcel> From: "Anonymous Coredump" > > You pays your money and you gets your choice of one, count em, (1) > > RSA decryption. Blind it and Seller can't tell what you're buyin. Discussed in "Applied Cryptography". Mark From yahany at avjapen.tv Sun Nov 18 16:43:53 2001 From: yahany at avjapen.tv () Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:43:53 +0900 Subject: <>Ͻô ε ϼ!!! Message-ID: <200111190041.QAA02948@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1250 bytes Desc: not available URL: From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 19 10:02:56 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:02:56 -0800 Subject: Pricing spare resources and options? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011118220052.03a2f6e0@bivens.parrhesia.com> References: Message-ID: <3BF8D8D0.11291.385869@localhost> On 18 Nov 2001, at 22:30, Greg Broiles wrote: > It seems like there ought to be an interesting market here, but I know and > worked with several people (with good financial backgrounds) who flogged > this for awhile and never got anywhere. I guess a big part of the problem > is that there's such a big difference in the perceived value of a > megabyte/month of online storage .. if you're on the provider side, you > think that's pretty expensive, as you've got the investment & etc required > in building a data center, providing bandwidth to reach customers, paying > staff, etc - but if you're on the customer side, you look at an 80 Gb drive > at Fry's in the Sunday newspaper for $160 and think about a $500 1.5mb/s > frame relay connection, and wonder why the service guys want $3 per > Mb/month .. > They STILL want this kind of price? I remember back in 96 looking at some prices for web hosting and thinking "hmm, these guys are getting their investment back in about 2 weeks, and everything after that is profit. That can't last". > and then the Mojo guys come along and make it sound like the people with > the cheap frame relay connections and commodity PC hardware ought to be > able to set up data centers in their back bedrooms or on their old laptops, > but so far all of the business models proposed involve paying those guys up > front for an indefinite period of storage, so there's no strong incentive > to actually store the data for long, especially not if you can resell that > same disk space 3 or 4 or 50 times. > I played around with MN for a while, one of the things that disapointed me was that you tend to lose mojo just by running the client. It seemed to me that the idea that everything you do should involve a cost one way or another was a mistake, it seemed to me that the housekeeping/say hello kind of stuff shuld be free. Publishing also, since 1) there's no guarentee that the site you publish blocks to will keep them for any nonzero length of time and 2) Theoretically the people you publish to will expect to make their "profit" from other people requesting those blocks. Of course, it's unlikely that Mojo will actually ever cost/be worth anything, but that's beside the point; assuming that pretty much invalidates the whole system. A distributed backup/storage system seems like it ought to be pretty easy to develop, but of course up front payment doesn't work at all. You'd need some kind of challenge/response system to verify that the storers are actually keeping the data, you'd need lots of redundancy since it doesn't really help you to know that some bozo dumped the only copy of your critical data, but if you have like 20 copies out there and you continually verify that they're all keeping your data (if some of tem lose it, just replace those guys) it seems like you should be safer than you would be using a standard commercial service. And at the prices you mention earlier, vastly cheaper. > Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 George From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 19 10:05:51 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:05:51 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111190639.AAA27706@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3BF8D97F.30139.3B0092@localhost> On 18 Nov 2001, at 20:37, CDR Anonymizer wrote: > >Anonymous: > >> but why did governments engage in the vigorous and frequent > >> application of bayonets and batons to render their money > >> independent of precious metals? > > > >Because they could. > > This goes beyond gratuitous demonstration of power and ability, > there is an economic reason behind it all. > What is / their / economic reason? > > They wanted to be able to pay off their debts with devalued money. George From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 19 10:14:01 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:14:01 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <002801c170d7$de524e20$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3BF8DB69.17842.427D27@localhost> On 19 Nov 2001, at 2:54, Neil Johnson wrote: > There are still a lot people that believe the U.S. should return to the > "Gold Standard" meaning the amount of money in circulation should equal the > amount of gold held by the U.S. government. That's what Fort Knox was > originally for. > It's amazing how many people assert this, even though it's clearly wrong. A gold standard does NOT mean that the amount of currency in circulation equals the amount of gold in the vaults, it means that the currency is exchangeable for gold at a fixed rate. Obviously, there can be more gold in the vaults than you need to actually exchange every dollar for the correct amount of gold. Less obviously, there can be less. George > From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 19 07:58:05 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:58:05 -0500 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device Message-ID: > baptista at pccf.net[SMTP:baptista at pccf.net] wrote > > On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > > detonation. You can actually hold a subcritical mass of plutonium in > > your hand for awhile - I'm told it feels warm. Can't say I've tried it > > myself. > > hold on mr. expert. > you hold a sub critical mass in your hand and in a few days you end up > shitting out your guts, lose your hair and die. > so i assume the person who had the opportunity to hold such a critical > mass is now dead. where are you getting your info on what it feels > like? curious george here. > The dot.GOD Registry, Limited > http://www.dot-god.com/ > Sigh, the truth is out there; you just need to look it up. Pu-239 (the major isotope of weapons grade plutonium) has a half life of over 24,000 years, and is an alpha emitter. Alphas are very, very feeble, and won't get past the dead outer layer of your skin. Pu-241 (a minor contaminant) is a bigger problem since it has a half life of only 14.4. years, and decays to americium 241. Am-241 is a gamma emitter, and a lot more difficult to shield. Newly processed weapons grade PU in solid lumps is relatively harmless stuff. I wouldn't want to hold it in my bare hand, but it's a pretty low risk operation. Any serious mechanical processing will make dust, which is an entirely different scale of risk. I have a vague memory of seeing a photo of a ?3 inch? ball of Pu (isotopic composition unknown) in one of those old Time-Life books. The ball glowed a dull red with it's own internal heat. [Bet this post gets me on some list. Knowing how to use Google is starting to be viewed as suspicious.] Peter Trei From roy at scytale.com Mon Nov 19 09:06:13 2001 From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:06:13 -0600 Subject: SafeWeb is history? Message-ID: <3BF8E7A5.8468.B29FD1@localhost> Seen on /., confirmed on www.safeweb.com. SafeWeb, blaming the bankruptcy of its co-lo provider, has suspended its free web proxy. It's claimed: "we may relaunch the service on a subscription basis." Another one bites the dust... -- Roy M. Silvernail Proprietor, scytale.com roy at scytale.com From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 19 11:13:31 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:13:31 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device Message-ID: <3BF959DB.11B76A9C@lsil.com> "!Dr. Joe Baptista" wrote : > > Where did this bullshit come from? Did someone take a ravioli recipe and do some search and replace? Is Dr. Joe Baptista really Jim Choate in disguise? My favorite short quote : "The trick is to bring the U-235 masses together at the same time." I'm slow, I know, so I'm still trying to figure out how to do it any other way when you have only two pieces. Could someone help me understand this part of the design? I would have to say, though, that my absolute favorite part is where one starts with a supercritical mass and subsequently divides it into two equal parts in order to prepare the device. ROTFL. Anyone gonna post fast neutron cross-section data for Pu and U isotopes? M >One thing that is bothering me these days are all the reports coming out >of Afganistan that nuclear bomb making plans were found. Big >deal. Anyone on the planet can make a nuclear device if they have the >appropriate materials. The hard part is staying alive due to exposure >while manufacturing the device. > >If however death is not an issue then the process itself becomes easy to >accomplish. > >Materials >--------- > > 4 stainless steal salad bowls (5 - 8 inch diameter) >10 pounds of U-235 (Plutonium) > 1 containment cylinder in which to fit the salad bowls > ? some explosives - C4 platic works best - but TNT or gun powder is >acceptable. > >Assembly >-------- > >10 pounds of U-235 is required to achive critical mass. However less will >work but you will get a sub critical mass on detonation. The difference >is taking out an entire city as opposed to a few city blocks. > >Divide the U-235 into two five pound masses. Beat it evenly into the >inside of one of your salad bowls. U-235 is malleable like gold so you >should have no problem shaping it. Do the same with the other U-235 mass >and shape it into the other salad bowl. > >Keep the two bowls apart - you don't want an accident to cause your >project to go critical. > >C4 explosives work best. You simply mold the C4 into the other two salad >bowls. This is the most dangerous part of the project. Improper handling >of C4 can cause an explosion. But gun powder is just as effective. > >Now fit the U-235 salad bowls into the C4 salad bowls and place them at >each end of the cylindrical containment. Connect your explosives to a >detonator and close off the ends of the cylynder. Make sure the detonator >sets off both explosives at the same time. > >The trick is to bring the U-235 masses together at the same time. > >And thats it. I would recommend some form of protection while building >the project. The aprons worn by dentists will work. They will protect >you to some degree from radioactive poisoning. However - your life is >only being prolonged by taking such measures - you still will end up dead >due to the U-235 radiation regardless of what you do. > >And thats it. > >Conclusion >---------- > >Anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device. So the only issue in >building the device is the will to die for a cause. And the only thing I >find unfortunate in all of this is that there are so many causes that >people are willing to die for. And war will not make those reasons go >away - it will only encourage them. > >regards >joe baptista > From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Nov 19 11:33:27 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:33:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: from "Trei, Peter" at Nov 19, 2001 10:58:05 AM Message-ID: <200111191933.fAJJXRD22902@artifact.psychedelic.net> Peter Trei wrote: > I have a vague memory of seeing a photo of a ?3 inch? ball of Pu (isotopic > composition unknown) in one of those old Time-Life books. The ball glowed > a dull red with it's own internal heat. Sounds like plutonium-238, NASA's favorite fuel for deep space Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators (RTGs). It puts out 0.54 kilowatts/kilogram and has a half life of 87.8 years. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From info at hongkongoffice.com.hk Mon Nov 19 11:41:59 2001 From: info at hongkongoffice.com.hk (info at hongkongoffice.com.hk) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:41:59 Subject: Newsletter - Landscope Message-ID: <200111190338.TAA19591@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 27441 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 19 11:46:45 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:46:45 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <20011119132940.A7094@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <29FDF574-DD26-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 10:29 AM, Adam Shostack wrote: > | 6. The failure to get true digital money. Call it what you like, > | "digital cash" or "ecash" or even one of Hettinga's pet names, but the > | fact is that for both political and technical reasons we don't have > | digital cash. This has ripple effects for nearly all of the constructs > [...] > | This failure to get workable untraceable digital cash (true 2-way > | untraceable, not the bastardized, banker-friendly, government-friendly > | one-way untraceable form) is the _deep_ reason things are stagnating. > > Sad as it makes me, I don't know of any system which allows 2-way > untracability and fraud prevention. Can you point me to one? With > trustworthy reputation systems, you might be able to get away from > this problem. I don't know of any reputation system that I'd trust > for a multi-hundred dollar transaction today. Doesn't the Barnes/Goldberg "moneychanging" protocol effectively symmetrize the untraceability? Even if the protocol is payer-untraceable-but-payee-traceable, the moneychanging protocol makes both untraceable. (Alice-Bob-Charles.) I'm not handwaving here, I hope, but the lack of blackboards and enough time (on all of our parts) to make sure our notation is correct, makes it tough to argue. Folks should go back to several articles written by Ian, Doug, and others. Circa 1996-7, as I recall. Also, some demos as CP physical meetings. There are issues of one party receiving part or all of the items being transferred and then burning the other party. And if the items, whether ecash or software or whatever, require later authorization/turn on to complete the transaction, there are further burning opportunities. (Note that this is not a problem unique to digital cash. There are always prospects for a merchant taking the money and then saying "Bye," or "I already gave you the stuff." Or delivering defective products. This is a kind of "handover deadlock" which, nonetheless, has not halted commerce of various kinds. Even at flea markets, where the sellers and buyers are largely anonymous. I realize that digital commerce systems have higher requirements, for the same (basic ontology of the world) reasons that security flaws in digital systems may be exploited far more rapidly and devastatingly than, for example, a security flaw at my house.) My _intuition_ is that an ecology of agents each exchanging digital money, even if the system in only uni-directionally untraceable, with "anyone a mint," goes a long way toward solving the problem. Squares the circle, so to speak. Throw in escrow agents and intermediate holders, bonded with nyms, and I see no particular reason why two-way untraceability is not feasible. But let me make a meta-point: We know that David Chaum, for various reasons, initially claimed two-way untraceability. We also know that he later emphasized offline clearing and "monitors" to deal with double-spending and repudiation problems. He also appeared to emphasize payer-untraceability (so that Alice could not have her purchases tracked by BobCo Enterprises) and claimed at one point that he could not see any need for payee-untraceability. (I refuted this to his face at a CFP, circa '97, by citing Bob the Seller of Birth Control Information, facing arrest and whatnot if caught selling banned information. This is just one of a huge class of situations where sellers are as much at risk as buyers. David had no answer, saying "Hmmmhhh...I'll think about it," or words to that effect. Him being an obviously very bright thinker, and him having spent many years thinking about these issues, I was and still am at a loss to understand why he would think payee untraceability is not needed.) So, here's the punchline, Regardless of companies trying to make money, not be run out of business by money laundering laws, trying to be banker- and Homeland Fascism-friendly, IS THERE A FUNDAMENTAL REASON WHY TWO-WAY UNTRACEABILITY IS NOT "POSSIBLE." I believe counterexamples have already been developed, showing there is nothing wired into the nature of mathematics that makes two-way untraceability impossible. I'll save these examples for later. --Tim May "As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later convinces himself." -- David Friedman From jokes-help at bob.free4all.com Mon Nov 19 03:54:09 2001 From: jokes-help at bob.free4all.com (jokes-help at bob.free4all.com) Date: 19 Nov 2001 11:54:09 -0000 Subject: GOODBYE from jokes@bob.free4all.com Message-ID: <1006170849.9452.ezmlm@bob.free4all.com> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the jokes at bob.free4all.com mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at jokes-owner at bob.free4all.com. Acknowledgment: I have removed the address cypherpunks at toad.com from the jokes mailing list. This address is no longer a subscriber. --- Administrative commands for the jokes list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: For help and a description of available commands, send a message to: To subscribe to the list, send a message to: To remove your address from the list, just send a message to the address in the ``List-Unsubscribe'' header of any list message. If you haven't changed addresses since subscribing, you can also send a message to: If you need to get in touch with the human owner of this list, please send a message to: Please include a FORWARDED list message with ALL HEADERS intact to make it easier to help you. --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received. From sales at buystainlessonline.com Mon Nov 19 12:10:29 2001 From: sales at buystainlessonline.com (BuyStainlessOnline.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:10:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Metals USA Bankrupt!!! Message-ID: <200111192010.MAA08927@toad.com> www.buystainlessonline.com News Flash ------------------------------ Texas based Metals USA has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. This comes after the United States largest service center consolidator delayed its quarterly earnings report last week. In September of 2000 BuyStainlessOnline, Inc. attended an AWMI (American Women in Metals) meeting where the speaker was Metals USA CEO Michael Kirksey. He shared his interesting (but highly flawed) opinions on how the future of Steel looked. We released this article at that time and it was well recieved all around the globe. Special thanks to David Center in Lake Success for retaining a copy! ----------------------------------------------- Metals USA CEO Clarifies \"Godzilla\" Ideal 9/13/2000 By Mason Fine (As found on www.BuyStainlessOnline.com) I was fortunate enough to attend an AWMI (Association of Women in Metals) dinner forum last night. The featured speaker of the event was Michael Kirksey, CEO and President of Metals USA, a newly formed company which has recently made waves in the Metals Industry. Mr. Kirksey, a 3 year veteran of the Metals Industry, discussed in detail how Metals USA plans on reaching profitability. For those unaware, the company (Metals USA) has been engaged in a quite active acquisition campaign. Mr. Kirksey elaborated last night on \"Godzilla\" (The Company) striving to reach a point where their supply chain management solutions will be so powerful that smaller service centers will either be swallowed up by \"Godzilla\" or forced into a smaller market segment. Metals USA\'s attitude towards this new \"Super Supply Chain\" solution drew varied responses from the fifty or more attendees of the forum. One highly interesting aspect of Mr. Kirksey\'s solution includes a service where mills and service centers will become more profitable through guaranteed ra! w ! material prices. How exactly Metals USA believes that there will come a time when Iron Ore will not fluctuate in price is lost to me. I asked Mr. Kirksey if Metals USA\'s projections for profitability coincided with the successful implementation of their integrated supply chain solution, his first answer was \"I don\'t understand the question\", followed by \"There are three Silos involved here\", after which Mr. Kirksey further elaborated on the Internet being involved, a guarantee on metal prices, and next day customer service. It is my opinion that if Metals USA can really pull this off, they stand to gain everything. On the other hand, if the price of metals can\'t be fully insured, Metals USA may have a big problem. www.BuyStainlessOnline.com Your Place for Stainless Today. P 215.604.5922 F 240.358.8483 Click Here to REGISTER! https://www.buystainlessonline.com/registration/registration.php Unsubscribe By clicking below: http://www.buystainlessonline.com/email/mail.php?action=delete&eval=2276&email=cypherpunks at toad.com From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 19 12:31:41 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:31:41 -0800 Subject: PALS : renaming DC CP Message-ID: <3BF96C2D.5BAD6579@lsil.com> >> >True. The DC cypherpunks are thinking of changing their name to >> something >> >more cuddly. >> >> Harmless Little Nerds? >> Cryptotubbies? >> Happy Fun Infosec Society? > >Much too 1990s. These times suit more loyal-sounding names. "Programmers >Rally Against Terrorism"? > Programmer's Association for Liberty Services From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 19 09:32:44 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:32:44 -0500 Subject: I'm back. Message-ID: I've been looking at the archives every once in a while for the last few months. The archives have their feet in the sky, the last few days, so I decided to lurk for real. LNE's nice and clean, so far. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 19 12:37:01 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:37:01 -0800 Subject: Nuclear Pipe Bombs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F402545-DD2D-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 12:15 PM, baptista at pccf.net wrote: > exactly right Ken .. as i said before to Tim May - propaganda is the > key. Example - antrax theatre. > > i must admit i'm warming up to Tim May's tall pipe means of attaining > critical mass - much easier then playing with explosive and timing > devices - my only question is do our experts see a problem with > that means of delivery? > As I made clear in my post, it's not _my_ idea. It's one of the standard "basement nuke" proposed designs. I don't particularly care whether "nuclear terrorist" is added to my dossier by the agents in place here on this list, or by other readers, but I don't want to get credit not due me. Also, I'm not a nuke designer and don't plan to answer questions about neutron crossections, thermal excursions before criticality, etc. I will mention that Ken Brown's "many pieces along the length of the pipe" is the worst way to do this: it buys nothing over the two pieces approach and it causes all sorts of problems with the pieces getting too hot as they come together on the way down. (For example, the penultimate chunk falling toward the ultimate chunk...likely to already be melting and spraying molten U-235 inside the pipe. Just another fizzle. And fizzles are not very interesting, for reasons I stated. A way too expensive way to spread mere radiological terror, which could be done much more cheaply and easily by taking spent fuel rods and blowing them up, or just by grinding up spent fuel rods or other nuclear waste and then dumping it out of a plane over a city.) By the way, some calculations are still needed (by basement nuke designers) on what the closing speed needs to be to get a reasonable chain reaction yield. The rough calculations I saw said that a fall from 40 feet, with good tamping behind and all on sides of the masses, would work. But it would be easy enough to accelerate the falling mass even more. An explosive charge, maybe even a rocket motor. (The Little Boy nuke was of course a "gun" design. The maker of a basement nuke has the advantage of not having to be portable in even the sense that the Hiroshima (Little Boy) and Nagasaki (Fat Man) nukes were portable-with-a-big-bomber. The basement nuke can be surrounded by lots of shielding (to foil N.E.S.T.), can use lots of tamping material, and can be wasteful in use of fissionables.) --Tim May "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 19 12:55:38 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:55:38 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111192036.PAA16109@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 12:36 PM, Faustine wrote: > But then, that sounds suspiciously resonant with "if they're too lazy > or stupid > to get it, then screw em", doesn't it. I think the real flaw > there--what keeps > me so uncomforable with it (even though my gut tells me it's a logical > conclusion)--is reflected in the sheer number of people I've seen > change their > minds once they found out a little more about how insecure they really > are. > > Haven't you ever been in a discussion/argument/presentation about > computer > security with someone, and at some point you notice that moment when it > finally > registers, you know that it really penetrated something...and they must > have > that sickening queazy little feeling in the pit of their stomachs when > they > say: > > "Oh my God, I had no idea". No, I can't say that I have. I have never wasted my time trying to convince sheeple that they need to make backups, put good locks on their doors, use encryption, not give their SS numbers to others, and so on. You didn't quote all of my material (which is fine), but it's important that folks remember the point I made about bank vault security: was it requested/demanded by the "industry" or by "the customer" (Joe Sixpack)? The answer is actually more interesting: the drive for better vaults was largely driven by _insurance_ issues. I suspected this when I first started thinking about security and crypto, and then I tracked down some comments from the safe makers (like Mosler). After bank robberies, when safes had to be replaced, banks would look at the economic tradeoffs in deciding whether to get a newer model from companies like Mosler. If they were insured, as became more common as the 20th Century unfolded, their insurance premiums depended on their overall security measures. This applied as well to _new_ banks. This meant that neither the customer (Joe Sixpack) nor the branch manager had to be "convinced" or "sold" on the importance or value of good security. Rather, the normal market discounting forces took care of the issue. Actuaries, underwriters, risk estimators, and security experts think about things some people never think will happen to them. Educating the masses is not the main issue. If you had read much of the past traffic of the list, Faustine, you would know about this point. Will the same happen with online security and crypto? It already has. The credit card companies already have imposed rules for merchants, a major part of why SSL and 128-bit crypto and all the rest is happening. Lawsuits over leaking of medical records are already happening, and some large tort judgements will likely cause increases in security (including better encryption, more use of capability-based architectures to limit access, etc.) Sure, Grandma and Sis aren't using PGP 8.13 to encrypt their notes to you. So? Crypto is economics. Security is economics. Has been since the days of measures and countermeasures with spears and fences and walls and castles and siege engines. "Educating the residents of villages" is neither here nor there. Not that I'm discouraging you from going out to and trying to get that "I didn't know that!" glimmer of awareness that maybe good locks are better than bad locks. Knock yourself out. But as a reason why certain interesting technologies are not being deployed, it's a side show. --Tim May "You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael Shirley From S666 at sms.at Mon Nov 19 03:56:00 2001 From: S666 at sms.at (S666) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:56 +0100 Subject: neos trenchcoat Message-ID: <20011119115628.8B8113CD639@mail1.sms.at> pleas send mi informations about the "neo´s trenchcoat" my adress: Alexander Berger Huetweg 7c 6405 Oberhofen Tirol Austria -- Ein Service von http://www.sms.at From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 19 13:02:11 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:02:11 -0800 Subject: Nuclear Pipe Bombs In-Reply-To: <2F402545-DD2D-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 12:37 PM, Tim May wrote: > > By the way, some calculations are still needed (by basement nuke > designers) on what the closing speed needs to be to get a reasonable > chain reaction yield. The rough calculations I saw said that a fall > from 40 feet, with good tamping behind and all on sides of the masses, > would work. > > But it would be easy enough to accelerate the falling mass even more. > An explosive charge, maybe even a rocket motor. > BTW, there's been a lot of recent work on electromagnetic launchers. Accelerating buckets in tubes, using electromagnets. (Outlined in Heinlein's "Moon is a Harsh Mistress," more than 35 years ago. Also outlined in several recent novels, and of course in technical papers on "mass launch" systems.) An electromagnetic accelerator could accelerate small masses to speeds beyond what explosives could ever accomplish. Imagine the new designs using even less fissionable material (up to certain basic physics limits, of course). Accelerate a small slug of Californium and splat it against a hard target...ah, now _that's_ a basement nuke! --Tim May "The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat From adam at homeport.org Mon Nov 19 10:29:41 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:29:41 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: References: <20011117031012.A17727@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20011119132940.A7094@weathership.homeport.org> On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:00:05AM -0800, Tim May wrote: | Also, I plan to reply only to folks who make a serious effort to debate. ok, so this is just some nits, because your analysis is generally good. | contributors have arrived. We had a guy from Germany, whose name I have | spaced out on, but he showed up at ZKS (another point I will get to in a Ulf Muller. | (Remember when three members of the same family were on the list and two | of them were essentially Netscape's security department! Remember when | at least three key list members worked for Digicash?) The ZKS issue | alone took half a dozen of our most significant contributors off the | list (for various obvious reasons), including Ian Goldberg, both Adams | (Back and Shostack), and some others. I'm pretty sure that my posting rate dropped long before I came to ZeroKnowledge. Many of the factors you describe contributed; the lack of new things being said here, increasing demands from my previous startup (Netect), and from ZK. | .... Even if these former list members end up leaving ZKS, as | would seem likely, I doubt they'll return to our list.) Likely true about my posting rate. However, I think that some of the new stuff we're working on is actually quite interesting, and I'm planning to stay here. I do filter the list heavily, tend to read only the first few paragraphs of text, etc. | 6. The failure to get true digital money. Call it what you like, | "digital cash" or "ecash" or even one of Hettinga's pet names, but the | fact is that for both political and technical reasons we don't have | digital cash. This has ripple effects for nearly all of the constructs [...] | This failure to get workable untraceable digital cash (true 2-way | untraceable, not the bastardized, banker-friendly, government-friendly | one-way untraceable form) is the _deep_ reason things are stagnating. Sad as it makes me, I don't know of any system which allows 2-way untracability and fraud prevention. Can you point me to one? With trustworthy reputation systems, you might be able to get away from this problem. I don't know of any reputation system that I'd trust for a multi-hundred dollar transaction today. (Speaking of reputation, Syverson and Dingledine have done some new work on reputations and cascade mixes, at http://www.freehaven.net/doc/casc-rep/) Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Nov 19 13:47:46 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:47:46 -0800 Subject: Nuclear Pipe Bombs In-Reply-To: <3BF97B9E.B73D9858@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: Ken Brown quoted Tim May (I think) saying: > > A way too expensive way to spread mere > > radiological terror, which could be done > > much more cheaply and easily by taking > > spent fuel rods and blowing them up, or > > just by grinding up spent fuel rods or > > other nuclear waste and then dumping it > > out of a plane over a city.) Won't work on Berkeley, though. The City Council declared Berkeley a "Nuclear Free Zone." Guess that leaves only conventional weapons. S a n d y From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 19 13:54:54 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:54:54 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <3BF96E17.94ED9473@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <115AA512-DD38-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 12:39 PM, Ken Brown wrote: > Tim May wrote: > >> So, here's the punchline, >> >> Regardless of companies trying to make money, not be run out of >> business >> by money laundering laws, trying to be banker- and Homeland >> Fascism-friendly, IS THERE A FUNDAMENTAL REASON WHY TWO-WAY >> UNTRACEABILITY IS NOT "POSSIBLE." >> >> I believe counterexamples have already been developed, showing there is >> nothing wired into the nature of mathematics that makes two-way >> untraceability impossible. I'll save these examples for later. > > I don't know if there is. I'll have to think about it. Any train of > thought that involves a distinction betwen "seller" and "buyer" is > probably going up the wrong track. As is any that involves a distinction > between "cash" and "goods?" Yes, I suspect. So we can think of it as > barter, but digital barter, so moneychanging *is* a good model. It is > sufficient to prove that you can do anoynymous, safe, digital > money-changing. Yes, you are on the same track I am on. Just as there is no real difference between a "buyer" and a "seller" (think barter, think trading songs, think swap meet), so, too, MONEY IS JUST ANOTHER GOOD BEING TRADED. While we think of the crisp $20 bill we got at the swap meet as being more "real" (guaranteed value) than something we get in trade (a radio, for example, which might turn out to be defective...), this is just a matter of degree. Counterfeit bills exist, and swap meets, by the way, happen to be where a lot of them turn up. But I risk digressing... The point is that even Chaumian "coins" (the unblinded numbers, presumptively unlinkable in the usual Chaumian ways) are essentially just goods. A recipient of such a coin has worries: has it already been spent (double-spending issue), will the issuer simply say "No good" (for whatever reason, including a deliberate "take the real money then renege on all redemption attempts" strategy. All money, all currency, all goods, are just "things" with various beliefs about them. And note that many of the "attacks" or "weaknesses" in digital cash schemes are actually present all around us. Examples abound, and could be put into a long list of potential frauds, scams, defaults, etc. Confidence gamers have been using these scams for centuries, longer. Banks have been failing, refusing to honor their notes, their "coins," for just as long. And governments have been looting banks, freezing assets, devaluing currencies. The list of "failure modes" is long. And yet it doesn't stop banks, money, and commerce. All crypto is economics. It's the ecology that matters, not just the absolute perfection of each sub-component. Your questions below need longer answers, but here are a few notes (take them as comments) on each of them: > > The full, hard, question then is something like this: > > Is there are protocol that allows moneychanging between different forms > of digital money that > > 1) allows complete anonymity to both partners to a transaction, and If Alice and Bob are "already" in possession of unspent (*) coins (I will use this term to refer to unblinded numbers, dispensing with talk about modular exponentiation, raising things to the one third power, blah blah), then Alice can give Bob 100 of her coins and "get back" 99 of Bob's coins. (His commission for moneychanging, for example.) (* Double spending will be an issue. I claim solutions exist, probabalistically.) Some don't like the mention of "coins." I mean it as shorthand to replace the often-confusing rewrite rules about what the transactions unfold into. Better to think in terms of atomic Chaumian protocols, unless the detailed rewrites matter in a particular case. Or for implementation, of course. > 2) provides strong defences against fraud to both parties, and This is best solved probabalistically, which we use for zero knowledge proofs. For example, I wish to know whether a bank (Bob) is "honest" about redeeming its digital money. I can "ping" the bank by withdrawing digital coins (again, same as "giving them a blinded number, getting back their version, unblinding the number," etc.) and then seeing whether they redeem the coin. As their coins are untraceable to me, I can have someone I trust test them. This is how people test their banks with ordinary cash. (Most don't, because enough others _have_. Banking regulations have very little to do with bank trustworthiness....ask the hawalla banks and their customers.) > 3) works well if one partner has much more to lose than the other (& > therefore for arbitrarily large amounts) and Best done by splitting into lots of smaller pieces, pieces which can be used to ping. (Not just to test, but to buy the advantages of being part of an ecology. An issuer who decides to "burn" customers cannot do it for just one particular customer. Your "size" or "more to lose" issue has some interesting mathematical issues connected to with it. "Streams" offer one outlook...no time here to explain. In some of my articles from several years ago.) > 4) works without a trusted 3rd party (broker, bank, court, police, > godfather, whatever), and I think third parties play a very important role. They don't have to be police or courts, etc., and it's better that they are not. A courier is a good example. An employee who moves packages, or even does banking. (Couriers are often bonded, the "more to lose on a burn than he makes" point you made. But couriers are also given incomplete knowledge. It helps that a courier doesn't know whether he's transporting $2000 or $200,000. Usual principles. Application to crypto protocols is not obvious, but there's something _there_.) > 5) can be relied upon for a single transaction - in other words the > partners have no previous knowledge of each other, and > need never have a further relationship. This is always problematic. Even in the real world of real money and real drugs. Drug deals often go bad for this reason. So physical security, snipers in high places, all the usual movie and t.v. drama. Can a system work without deadlock, where Alice makes a good (a song, for example) and Bob does the same (another song)? Sending partial bits out is only a crude engineering solution...both get their songs more or less simultaneously. Note that any system where Alice unlocks her song with a key is no solution at all. (This is often _seen_ as a solution, but bits are bits, and so this solution misses the point.) Note that no digital money scheme solves this problem, either. (Which is why I put in terms of straight barter, with no issues of translation into money even necessary to consider.) I believe, and have believed since 1988 when Dave Ross first suggested it in a discussion a bunch of us were having, that third party escrow services, untraceable to each but having a digital nym, is the optimum solution to this "delivery deadlock" problem. Much has been written, by me and by others, on escrow services. > > ? > > The protocol needs to be stateless between trades. (though not, of > course, within them). Everyone comes to the table with no history and > leaves it with no requirement to return. Well, "reputation" is a form of persistent state. The reputation (belief) that a piece of metal is actually gold, the belief that a gold market will exit in 2 hours, the belief in a bank, and so on. I believe the notion that persistent states are not desirable, that only a kind of "purely functional (in the sense of Scheme or ML) protocol is desirable is the ROOT CAUSE of much of the failures talked about here. > > Several slightly weaker cases are of course trivially possible, if we > allow some pseudonymity, or assume that the transactions are small > enough that fraud will hurt neither party. > > It is trivially possible if there are repeated pseudnymous transactions, > and there is enough time for the parties to build up a reputation. And this matches how things work in the real world, in all cultures and over nearly all periods in history. Kids learn that money has value by a Bayesian expectation that dollar bills will continue to buy candy. Those with checking accounts establish a Bayesian belief that their checks will continue to be honored so long as they meet expected deposit requirements. Etc. for a dozen other good examples. Why do we expect digital money to be different? (Yes, there are fascinating aspects to one _part_ of the blinding process...but isn't this akin to only focussing on the "untraceable" part of a gold coin and saying that's the only reason money works?) We have been taking a couple of elegant protocols and expecting this to be the monetary system. And when they fail, or fail to get implemented (the real reason), we say "untraceability is not possible." (Given certain flaws in non-digital money systems, would we say that "traceability must be added"? Government thinks so, with money laundering and currency transport laws, and with likely outlawing of cash within out lifetimes. But these are for political reasons.) > > Requirement (4) need not be true if both parties are allowed to have a > pseudonymous relationship with a 3rd party, but that just gets us back > to banking, which is boring. Not if anyone is a potential bank, a mint. If coins are just another form of bartered "things," and if traceability to a physical true name is not essential for barter (my basic thesis), then look what happens... > > It is also easy if only one party is really worried about fraud. > Ordinary cash transactions for small amounts work like that already. The > shopkeeper doesn't care who I am or, really, if my cash is any good. If > I pass him a few dud coins he has lost a tiny part of his turnover. I > do care that the goods I am buying are good though. So he has to > reassure me of his reliability not the other way round. Though they do > care if lots of people start to pass forged coins. If their turnover is > high enough they have an interest in the average quality of money, not > the quality of any one coin. The system only has to be good enough, not > perfect. > > Pseudonymous exchange can be achieved by breaking trades down into > small increments none of which is significant enough to damage either > player. If I'm going to give you a thousand pounds for 1600 dollars we > could do it a dollar at a a time and just withdraw - but we know this > already so no point in thinking aloud along those lines First, it is by no means pointless to talk in terms of these smaller sub-trades. It solves many problems. Second, even very high-value transactions can be done with mutually-trusted third parties, even untraceable. (Physical identity is just another credential. Sometimes offered, sometimes not.) Thanks for the interesting comments, yours and Adam Shostack's. It's helping me to dredge up out of my memory some of the good discussions from the early list years and from the 1995-97 years when "everyone a mint" was being discussed a lot. I feel more than ever that the ecology approach, the agoric approach, is the key. --Tim May "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler From kmself at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 19 13:56:26 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:56:26 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <3BF8DB69.17842.427D27@localhost>; from georgemw@speakeasy.net on Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 10:14:01AM -0800 References: <002801c170d7$de524e20$0100a8c0@mshome.net> <3BF8DB69.17842.427D27@localhost> Message-ID: <20011119135625.C23692@navel.introspect> on Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 10:14:01AM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) wrote: > On 19 Nov 2001, at 2:54, Neil Johnson wrote: > > > There are still a lot people that believe the U.S. should return to > > the "Gold Standard" meaning the amount of money in circulation > > should equal the amount of gold held by the U.S. government. That's > > what Fort Knox was originally for. > > It's amazing how many people assert this, even though it's clearly > wrong. A gold standard does NOT mean that the amount of currency in > circulation equals the amount of gold in the vaults, it means that the > currency is exchangeable for gold at a fixed rate. Obviously, there > can be more gold in the vaults than you need to actually exchange > every dollar for the correct amount of gold. Less obviously, there can > be less. You can't have it both ways. You either have a gold standard, or you don't. A fixed exchange either means you have a government-retulated market for precious metals, or your currency floats against the current valuation of metal. Either option raises concerns. Any meaningful standard requires a linking of currency to gold. You've either got a standard or you don't. If the requirement is for minimum guaranteed reserves, then you can clearly hold more gold than is required for floating currency (but why would you?). However, as with margin calls, fluctuations on either side of the equation could result in a sudden harsh dealing with reality. Prior to the abandonment of the gold standard by the US, the price, and amount an individual could own, of gold were both set by the government. There are those who argue that the US dollar is backed not by gold, but by its real purchasing power. This is composed of several things, three among them being: - "The full faith and credit of the United States Government". Not in its direct backing of the value of a dollar, but its managment of both government and money supply. - Industrial power. Gold isn't itself directly useful (in most cases), it's an exchange medium. As is money. Backing one exchange medium with another seems like it perverts the principle of reducing intermediaries. Gold values themselves can be adjusted by multiple actors, introducing another area of possible instability (though holders of east Asian currencies in the late 1990s will tell you the same holds for currency). - Faith. Ultimately the value of an exchange medium is a widely-held faith that it is worth what it says it's worth, whatever that may be. This is one of the more difficult aspects of currency to replicate in another system. There are other rare and valuable things (metals, stones, grand-master paintings, stamps). There are localized networks in with other media are accepted: POs in a business context, checks, scrip, Mojo. But acceptence outside the small group is limited. There's also the nagging Art. 8, Sec. 8 powers. For a strong argument agaist the gold standard, see Brad DeLong's essay on the topic: http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/Politics/ Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 19 14:11:42 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:11:42 -0800 Subject: Virtual Bhurkas ( was : Re: Nuclear Pipe Bombs ) Message-ID: <3BF9839E.C7835E19@lsil.com> Ken Brown wrote : 1) I thought spherical shells were the usual geometry? 2) It sure as hell looks like it's time to start creating private archives of public data and seeing to it that the data are propagated. Sneakernet revisited only now with CD's instead of floppies. > >Shit. If the UK government passes this law they are proposing then this >email would probably count as illegal. And anonymous postings are often >so tedious. > 3) Time for ideas to don a bhurka before they go out in the street, to meet in secret places, to avoid the eyes and ears of Mullahs Ashcroft and Blair. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 19 14:16:38 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:16:38 -0800 Subject: Virtual Bhurkas ( was : Re: Nuclear Pipe Bombs ) In-Reply-To: <3BF9839E.C7835E19@lsil.com> Message-ID: <1A05ADCD-DD3B-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 02:11 PM, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > > > 1) I thought spherical shells were the usual geometry? > > Define "usual"? And explain why that matters. We are discussing low-yield, non-optimized, basement nukes. Little Boy was a gun device, firing a wedge (of some fraction...) into the other piece (sphere minus wedge, other half, whatever). I hate spending cycles on nuke design. See many books--Smythe Report, Ted Taylor's articles, The Progressive, etc.--on issues. The Little Boy design was publicized in the 40s. --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787 From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 19 14:19:29 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:19:29 -0800 Subject: Cypherpunk failures Message-ID: <3BF98571.F870415C@lsil.com> "Roy M. Silvernail" wrote : >On 19 Nov 2001, at 19:43, Ken Brown wrote: > >> Much too 1990s. These times suit more loyal-sounding names. >> "Programmers Rally Against Terrorism"? > >I wonder how many non-Brits will get this... > > >-- >Roy M. Silvernail >Proprietor, scytale.com >roy at scytale.com > Oh, I get it OK, it just doesn't sound cuddly. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Nov 19 05:52:47 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:52:47 +0100 (MET) Subject: FYI:Development list (was: Re: [mix-l] Verifying DH/DSS Sigs) (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:20:37 -0800 (PST) From: Len Sassaman Reply-To: mix-l at yahoogroups.com To: mix-l at yahoogroups.com Subject: Development list (was: Re: [mix-l] Verifying DH/DSS Sigs) Hi folks, For those of you interested in contributing to/knowning more about the development of Mixmaster, there is a list set up on SourceForge for that purpose. http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixmaster-devel Thanks, Len On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, QuickSilver wrote: > Hi All! > > I'm having a problem verifying these signatures with mix2.9b12(win). > RSA keys verify fine but with DH/DSS I get PGP_SIGBAD returned from my > pgp_decrypt call and the sig buffer is completely empty rather than > containing sig info. PGP, on the other hand, verifies the same > signatures ok. > > Has anyone else run into this. I think I must be missing something. > > Thanks, > > Richard > -- > R.Christman > Benchmark Software > quicksilver at skuz.net > http://quicksilver.skuz.net > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Vv.L9D/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/kgFolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To Post a message, send it to: mix-l at eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: mix-l-unsubscribe at eGroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From vktours at spidernet.com.cy Mon Nov 19 07:07:44 2001 From: vktours at spidernet.com.cy (Luxury villas to rent in Paphos Cyprus) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:07:44 -0000 Subject: THIS EMAIL WILL BE SENT ONLY ONCE! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4356 bytes Desc: not available URL: From baptista at pccf.net Mon Nov 19 12:15:39 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:15:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <3BF96297.94A5A98E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: exactly right Ken .. as i said before to Tim May - propaganda is the key. Example - antrax theatre. i must admit i'm warming up to Tim May's tall pipe means of attaining critical mass - much easier then playing with explosive and timing devices - my only question is do our experts see a problem with that means of delivery? regards joe On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Ken Brown wrote: > A propaganda weapon doesn't have to work, it just has to present a > threat of working to people who may or may not understand how it is > meant to work. It doesn't have to be a credible military weapon. A > kamikaze airliner isn't a credible *military* weapon against anyone who > can afford artillery. That didn't stop them though. > > The tall pipe that others mentioned would work well enough to scare > people - all you need to do is find a way of convincing others that > you've done it. One idea was to set one up in a tall block of flats. You > know the sort where there is a 6-inch gap between flights of stairs in > the stairwell, so if you stand at the top and look down you see right to > the basement. There are abandoned 19 or 20 story blocks in grotty > suburbs of London with stairwells like that, I bet the same is true of > most big cities. You only have to break in for a single day. You set a > number of lumps of U one above the other in such a way that when a > higher one falls onto one below it will take it with it - maybe just tie > them to the railings with thread, and put some old metal plates in the > way to stop them bouncing out of the stack. Use lumps of lead for > testing. > > The topmost one can be released by any simple mecahnism. You then assert > publically that when the top one is dropped they will all cascade down > and assemble a critical mass on the floor below. Hey presto, one big > propaganda coup, one mass panic and evacuation of big city. The building > will probably still be standing after it goes off, or fails to, but who > will want to be first in? > > Ken Brown > > > "Karsten M. Self" wrote: > > > > on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:24:31AM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote: > > > On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 08:20 PM, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: > > > > > > Anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device. So the only issue > > > > in building the device is the will to die for a cause. And the only > > > > thing I find unfortunate in all of this is that there are so many > > > > causes that people are willing to die for. And war will not make > > > > those reasons go away - it will only encourage them. > > > > > > It's really _not_ this easy. It took China and India a while before > > > they successfully tested an A-bomb (many years after they had the raw > > > materials from their reactor programs). It may have taken the South > > > Africans and Israelis a few years after getting materials, too. So, > > > why didn't they just hammer U-235 into stainless steel mixing bowls > > > and do it the way "anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device," > > > one wonders. > > > > This analysis neglects consideration of several points: > > > > - Nation-states (even authoritarian ones) will likely want to create > > both a sustained program, not merely crank out a few crude nukes, > > and preserve the talent involved. One-offs are almost always easier > > to complete than a production effort, but the lowered total cost is > > offset by a higher unit cost. The terrorist organization can > > accomplish its goals with crude tactics and marginally effective > > devices. Credible military threat isn't as simple. > > > > - Credible military weapons have minimum requirements of both efficacy > > -- efficient use of supercritical energy -- and predictability -- > > having the damned thing go off in the silo / bunker / hanger / > > munitions dump rather than the chosen target isn't particularly > > useful. > -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/ From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 19 13:28:12 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:28:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <20011119135520.91521.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr It's a mailing list focused on cryptography, civil liberties, & economics. On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, geeta jagasia wrote: > send me details to my email gytabai at indiatimes.com > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals > http://personals.yahoo.com > From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Nov 19 06:29:19 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:29:19 +0100 (MET) Subject: [CrackMonkey] overheard on gale (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:16:14 -0800 From: Nick Moffitt To: Mama's lil' monkeys love shortnin' bread Subject: [CrackMonkey] overheard on gale To pub.me.ryan at ofb.net Fugu/1.1.7 Hrm. So I'm definitely quitting havenco in the next 6 months. I think I will do an ecash company (I will have cash and dividend income from havenco to finance it) I hope "second system effect" doesn't apply to startups. HavenCo is semi-successful and fairly reasonable; I'm afraid if I do a new company I will overengineer a lot of it. -- Ryan Lackey at 11-14 07:35:07 -- INFORMATION GLADLY GIVEN BUT SAFETY REQUIRES AVOIDING UNNECESSARY CONVERSATION 01234567 <- The amazing* indent-o-meter! ^ (*: Indent-o-meter may not actually amaze.) _______________________________________________ CrackMonkey: Non-sequitur arguments and ad-hominem personal attacks http://crackmonkey.org/mailman/listinfo/crackmonkey From faustine at lokmail.net Mon Nov 19 12:36:13 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:36:13 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: <200111192036.PAA16109@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 3209 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at scytale.com Mon Nov 19 13:48:50 2001 From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:48:50 -0600 Subject: Cypherpunk failures In-Reply-To: <3BF960F8.675A72C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3BF929E2.16710.1B53670@localhost> On 19 Nov 2001, at 19:43, Ken Brown wrote: > Much too 1990s. These times suit more loyal-sounding names. > "Programmers Rally Against Terrorism"? I wonder how many non-Brits will get this... -- Roy M. Silvernail Proprietor, scytale.com roy at scytale.com From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 19 15:50:18 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:50:18 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2FD681EF-DD48-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 03:27 PM, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > >> It's amazing how many people assert this, even though it's clearly >> wrong. A gold standard does NOT mean that the amount of currency in >> circulation equals the amount of gold in the vaults, it means that the >> currency is exchangeable for gold at a fixed rate. Obviously, there >> can >> be more gold in the vaults than you need to actually exchange every >> dollar for the correct amount of gold. Less obviously, there can be >> less. > > Of course, the system also exposes the currency to fluctuations in world > wide supply of gold. It's not sane policy to tie one's unit of currency > to > any particular good -- think about what it would mean if the chosen good > was unrefined oil, a particular crop or electrical power. One'll get the > picture fairly soon. I'm not religious about a gold standard, but the fluctuations in world supply of gold are quite small. Nearly all of the gold extant in the world has existed for a long time in the hands of man (and governments, companies, churches, etc.). Even those mining technology has gotten better, the riches veins of ore--and most of the nuggest sitting in streambeds, etc.--have long been exhausted. I'm sure that 10 or 15 minutes spent with a search engine, maybe much less, would show the number of tons of gold mined each year versus the total amount of gold already held. > It's not really sane to opt for a tie-in to the supply of a particular > currency, either -- that's actually even worse, since the people > printing > the bills can cause fluctuations in the exchange rate even easier than > they could if they were just digging up precious metals up from the > crust. > > Hence, private, floating currency, which, again, is old news on the > list. Money things are just objects with certain beliefs and expectations attached to them. --Tim May "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 19 08:02:09 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 16:02:09 +0000 Subject: Who Authorized This? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011116142059.04e58c40@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3BF92D01.3C1A7CFC@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Steve Schear posted: > > Who Authorized This? > Andrew Sullivan, Forbes ASAP, 12.03.01 [...] > Moreover, the power and status of rulers derived from their own perfection. > Kings and queens commanded artists to portray them as demi-gods. Dissenters > were not merely troublemakers; they were direct threats to the perfect > order of the modern state. This was a political order in which everything > had to be perfectly arranged, even down to the internal thoughts of > individual consciences. Some of that might have been true of England in 1576. Much of it would have been true of Spain in 1676. But if Mr. Sullivan really thinks that it is a reasonable description of Britain in 1776 then his idea of history is so screwed there's no point in paying attention to him. Ken Brown From mv at cdc.gov Mon Nov 19 16:39:47 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 16:39:47 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: <3BF9A652.DC65ED8@cdc.gov> At 12:55 PM 11/19/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: >On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 12:36 PM, Faustine wrote: >> Haven't you ever been in a discussion/argument/presentation about >> computer >> security with someone, and at some point you notice that moment when it >> finally >> registers, you know that it really penetrated something...and they must >> have >> that sickening queazy little feeling in the pit of their stomachs when >> they >> say: >> >> "Oh my God, I had no idea". > >No, I can't say that I have. I have never wasted my time trying to >convince sheeple that they need to make backups, put good locks on their >doors, use encryption, not give their SS numbers to others, and so on. Besides, the news/experience does a good job. Events like bin Laden Airlines (for off-site backups), any number of virii and worms (for avoiding MS tools and not clicking random things), and random kipple (like disk failures reminding of the need for backups) eventually teach what mere words do not. From funnymoney.10 at reply.pm0.net Mon Nov 19 16:45:04 2001 From: funnymoney.10 at reply.pm0.net (FunnyMoney) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 16:45:04 PST Subject: Time to refinance your mortgage! Message-ID: <200111210145.BAA17387@s0308.pm0.net> Right now is the perfect time to refinance your mortgage! We have excellent programs for refinances, second mortgages, home equity, and home improvement loans. Click here now! http://www.eloangroup.com/mortgage.asp AOL Users Click Here <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?funnymoney:10 * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "funnymoney:10". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:1c.w1m.audch From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 19 17:03:43 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:03:43 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: References: <3BF8DB69.17842.427D27@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011119170343.007d3580@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:27 AM 11/20/01 +0200, Sampo Syreeni wrote: >On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > >>It's amazing how many people assert this, even though it's clearly >>wrong. A gold standard does NOT mean that the amount of currency in >>circulation equals the amount of gold in the vaults, it means that the >>currency is exchangeable for gold at a fixed rate. Obviously, there can >>be more gold in the vaults than you need to actually exchange every >>dollar for the correct amount of gold. Less obviously, there can be >>less. > >Of course, the system also exposes the currency to fluctuations in world >wide supply of gold. It's not sane policy to tie one's unit of currency to >any particular good -- think about what it would mean if the chosen good >was unrefined oil, a particular crop or electrical power. One'll get the >picture fairly soon. Yes, but what this thread has ignored is that gold (and other densely precious things) were valued *in and of themselves* and so using them as money was not symbolic. You traded your goat for a goat's worth of gold; if trust evaporated overnight the gold is still worth something. Similarly with barrels of oil. If you discover a lot of it under your topsoil, you get wealth because the substance itself has utility. >It's not really sane to opt for a tie-in to the supply of a particular >currency, either -- that's actually even worse, since the people printing >the bills can cause fluctuations in the exchange rate even easier than >they could if they were just digging up precious metals up from the crust. > >Hence, private, floating currency, which, again, is old news on the list. Clearly stated. From frissell at panix.com Mon Nov 19 14:23:26 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:23:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nuclear Pipe Bombs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Won't work on Berkeley, though. The City Council declared Berkeley a > "Nuclear Free Zone." Guess that leaves only conventional weapons. > > > S a n d y > Those restrictions usually also prohibit the *design* of nuclear weapons (don't know if Berzerkeley's does) in which case they are unconstitutional because of the First. DCF From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 19 17:40:34 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:40:34 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011119170343.007d3580@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <971C0336-DD57-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 05:03 PM, David Honig wrote: > > Yes, but what this thread has ignored is that gold (and other > densely precious things) were valued *in and of themselves* and so > using them as money was not symbolic. You traded your goat > for a goat's worth of gold; if trust evaporated overnight > the gold is still worth something. Not really. It was still a matter of belief that that gold coin, or gold nugget, would be worth something. "In and of itself" is a very vague and intangible concept. --Tim May "As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later convinces himself." -- David Friedman From 100posko at jakarta.wasantara.net.id Mon Nov 19 03:00:15 2001 From: 100posko at jakarta.wasantara.net.id (100posko) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:00:15 +0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011119180009.00aa2960@jakarta.wasantara.net.id> From newsletters at the-financial-news.org Mon Nov 19 09:02:49 2001 From: newsletters at the-financial-news.org (The Financial News) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:02:49 +0100 Subject: Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Co-investment Program Message-ID: The Financial News, November 2001 Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Co-investment Program "...Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and the necessary support for the production in series of Mini-plants in mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is to say, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production." More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for Construction Framework, Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Façades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares, Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups, Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging, Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material, Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc. Science Network has started a process of Co-investment for the installation of small Assembly plants to manufacture in series the Mini-plants of portable production on the site, region or country where they may be required. One of the most relevant features is the fact that these plants will be connected to the World Trade System (WTS) with access to more than 50 million raw materials, products and services and automatic transactions for world trade. Because of financial reasons, involving cost and social impact, the right thing to do is to set up assembly plants in the same countries and regions, using local resources (labor, some equipment, etc.) For more information: Mini-plants in mobile containers By Steven P. Leibacher, The Financial News, Editor Mini-plantas de produccion en contenedores moviles. Programa de Co-inversion "...Science Network suministrara a paises y regiones en vias de desarrollo la tecnologia y el apoyo necesario para la fabricacion en serie de Mini-plantas de produccion en contenedores moviles (40-foot). El sistema de mini-plantas esta diseñado de forma que todas las maquinas de produccion van instaladas fijas sobre la propia plataforma del contenedor, con el cableado, tuberias e instalaciones; es decir, completamente equipadas... y a partir de ese momento están listas para producir." Mas de 700 sistemas de produccion portatil: Panaderias, Producción de clavos de acero, Electrodos para soldadura, Recauchutado de neumaticos, Curvado de hierro para armaduras de construccion, Lamina perfilada para cubiertas, techos y cerramientos de fachada, Bidones de chapa, Cubos de aluminio, Menaje de polipropileno inyectado, Piezas de melamina prensada (vasos, platos, tazas, cafeteras, etc.) Silenciadores para vehiculos, Malla electrosoldada para la construccion, Bolsas y envases de plastico, Unidades moviles de asistencia medica, Material sanitario (jeringas hipodermicas, Pinzas hemostaticas, etc.) Science Network ha puesto en marcha un proceso de Co-inversion para la instalacion de pequeñas Plantas ensambladoras para fabricar en serie las Mini-plantas de produccion portatil, en el lugar, region o pais que lo necesite. Una de las características relevantes es el hecho de que dichas plantas quedaran conectadas al Sistema del Comercio Mundial (WTS) con acceso a mas de 50 millones de mercancias, materia primas, productos, servicios y las operaciones automaticas de comercio internacional. Resulta obvio que por razones economicas, de costes y de impacto social, lo apropiado es instalar plantas ensambladoras en los mismos paises y regiones asi como utilizar los recursos locales (mano de obra, ciertos equipamientos, etc.) Para recibir mas infromacion: Mini-plantas de produccion en contenedores moviles Steven P. Leibacher, The Financial News, Editor ------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you received this in error or would like to be removed from our list, please return us indicating: remove or un-subscribe in 'subject' field, Thanks. Editor © 2001 The Financial News. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5635 bytes Desc: not available URL: From specialoffers at freesamples.com Mon Nov 19 18:13:50 2001 From: specialoffers at freesamples.com (specialoffers at freesamples.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:13:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Richard, Win a fabulous trip to Maui and get FREE REWARDS! Message-ID: <200111200213.fAK2Dn701432@mail1.freesamples.com> Please cut and paste this entire URL into a web browser: http://www.freesamples.com/emailfeedback/mypoints1.cfm?userid=50570054 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10771 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Nov 19 18:18:31 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:18:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111200120.UAA02456@mail.lokmail.net> from "Faustine" at Nov 19, 2001 08:20:11 PM Message-ID: <200111200218.fAK2IVL23348@artifact.psychedelic.net> Faustine writes: > Right. I suppose there's not much that can be done for people who expect > "security" to be handed down to them from the sky on a silver > platter. I'm sure it couldn't be more obvious to most here that if you > don't put out the effort to take responsibility for your own security, > you aren't going to have it--for your computer or anything else. To the consumer, a computer is an appliance. It is purchased to do some specific set of things, with OS and applications pre-loaded. Its software and hardware are never upgraded, and when it isn't new and shiney any more, it is traded in and a newer model is acquired. To expect the consumer to do anything complicated to his computer is like expecting the owner of a TV to upgrade it from Comb Filter to Comb Filter Pro, and to add additional RAM and a line doubler. Comsumers aren't going to use any security that isn't on the machine when they get it. Just like they aren't going to use an OS other than Windows, because it isn't on the machine when they get it. > But then, that sounds suspiciously resonant with "if they're too lazy or > stupid to get it, then screw em", doesn't it. No, it sounds suspiciously resonant with "I understand that the appliance market is different from the government, commercial, and educational markets." > I think the real flaw there--what keeps > me so uncomforable with it (even though my gut tells me it's a logical > conclusion)--is reflected in the sheer number of people I've seen change their > minds once they found out a little more about how insecure they really are. We call these people hobbyists. The size of the hobbyist market will never be more than a fraction of the size of the appliance market. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From bob at motorbikebob.com Mon Nov 19 10:29:21 2001 From: bob at motorbikebob.com (Bob) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:29:21 -0000 Subject: NetNews, Subscription to Motorbike Bob Message-ID: <200111191824483.SM01128@Bob> Greetings from www.motorbikebob.com, please read this message before deleting!!! We have recently acquired several web properties. You are receiving this as an opt-in subscriber of one of those properties in accordance with current SPAM guidelines. If you feel that you are receiving this in error, please follow instructions at the end this message. Failure to do so will result in regular receipt of our mailings - Thank you for your understanding. Q. OK then what or who is www.motorbikebob.com? A. www.motorbikebob.com is a UK based website for motorcycle enthusiasts run by motorcycle enthusiasts. Q. Where did you get my name and email address? A. According to "Market Share Recovery Inc" you were registered at a defunct US site called www.all-cycle.com. Q. What do you do and what do you sell? A. We keep our visitors up to date with all the news and views from the world of sport motor-cycling. www.motorbikebob.com has one of the largest catalogues of motorcycle clothing in the UK, with brands like Alpinestars, Axo, Joe Rocket, Arai, AGV, Rukka, The Hump, all delivered to you at less than you would normally pay. Q. Do you have any FAQ's that I could look at? A. Yes we do you can find them within the shop at www.motorbikebob.com Q. How often will you write to me? A. We aim to write to you once every 2 weeks giving you details on our special offers and interesting stories. Q Will you pass my details onto anyone else? A. ABSOLUTLY NOT. We value your privacy as we do ours. Q. OK what about a special offer to entice me now? A. Oh all right then, we will waiver any shipping costs on orders over the value of �250 ($375.00 approx) for any persons on this list until 28 Feb 2002. YES THATS FREE SHIPPING!!! Q. What do I do to stay on the list for the time being? A. Nothing at all. If we don't' hear from you we will keep you on the list. To unsubscribe from this newsletter please reply to allcycle at motorbikebob.com and place the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject box. From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 19 19:03:11 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:03:11 -0800 Subject: In praise of gold In-Reply-To: <971C0336-DD57-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20011119170343.007d3580@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3BF9576F.26244.226F3DD@localhost> On 19 Nov 2001, at 17:40, Tim May wrote: > On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 05:03 PM, David Honig wrote: > > > > Yes, but what this thread has ignored is that gold (and other > > densely precious things) were valued *in and of themselves* and so > > using them as money was not symbolic. You traded your goat > > for a goat's worth of gold; if trust evaporated overnight > > the gold is still worth something. > > Not really. It was still a matter of belief that that gold coin, or gold > nugget, would be worth something. > > "In and of itself" is a very vague and intangible concept. > > --Tim May I understand your point, you can't eat gold, it won't keep you warm and dry in a storm, it really is mostly only good for you in that other people will also give you stuff for it BUT I think the other side is pretty clear also. Gold isn't like, say, the good will of the king, which becomes wortheless as soon as there's a new king. I suspect that it never ocurred to most people during gold standard days that gold could in principle become wothless (although alchemists understood perfectly well that being able to turn lead into gold is only the key to riches if you alone posess the secret). Anyway, there are very good reasons why gold is better than anything else as a basis of currency. I expect most of you have read this before, I've posted this before elsewhere, appy polly logies for the redundancy, but for those who maybe think choice of gold as a standard, here's why gold is good: 1) Gold is money dense (a small volume of gold is worth a lot). This is very important if you have to keep currency reserves. 2) Gold does not rust or decay. Again, very important if you have to keep reserves. 3) Gold is uniform. Diamonds are all different, oil comes in a plethora of types and grades. Tobacco was used as money in the early days of the american colonies, with the (easily predictable) result that people smokes the good stuff and used the crappiest stuff they could find to pay their debts. Nothing could be purer than pure gold. 4) Gold is elemental. It's much more plausible that somebody will come up with an economic way to synthesize, say, diamonds than gold. 5) Gold makes women sleep with you. I don't know why they like it, but they do. George > "As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone > with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later > convinces himself." -- David Friedman From jae at jerhard.org Mon Nov 19 10:21:00 2001 From: jae at jerhard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:21:00 +0100 Subject: Crypto Terrorists to be Tried in Military Tribunal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011118230144.03c68b90@bivens.parrhesia.com> (message from Greg Broiles on Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:07:14 -0800) References: <426bade14cabb31519c263b9ca611a5b@noisebox.remailer.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20011118230144.03c68b90@bivens.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Broiles writes: Greg> At 11:14 PM 11/18/2001 -0500, Peter Capelli wrote: >> Okay, here's a question from a 'stupid fuck'; Did *you* read the order? >> Check out Section 7 (a) (3): >> >> Sec. 7. Relationship to Other Law and Forums. >> >> (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to -- >> >> (1) authorize the disclosure of state secrets to any person not otherwise >> authorized to have access to them; >> (2) limit the authority of the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed >> Forces or the power of the President to grant reprieves and pardons; or >> >> (3) limit the lawful authority of the Secretary of Defense, any military >> commander, or any other officer or agent of the United States or of any >> State to detain or try any person who is not an individual subject to this >> order. >> >> >> Now I am not a lawyer, but doesn't that mean that this can be applied to >> anyone? Greg> No, it means it's not meant to alter people's pre-existing status vis-a-vis Greg> detentions or trials; if they didn't include a clause like that, then Greg> people would argue that the executive order didn't just add to existing Greg> law, but replaced it, such that previously possible prosecutions would no Greg> longer be possible since they weren't explicitly permitted in the EO. Or, to put it in clear laymen's terms: it means this order only gives them *more* rights, it doesn't take any rights away from LEOs/the govermin'. Bye, J -- Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen.erhard at gmx.net, jae at users.sf.net) MARS http://mars.jerhard.org The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned. -- Bruce Ediger -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ryan at havenco.com Mon Nov 19 11:40:18 2001 From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:40:18 +0000 Subject: "quitting havenco", not quite! Message-ID: <20011119194016.A26540@atreides.havenco.com> Two people appear to have forwarded communications from a semi-private chat system through two mailing lists to cypherpunks. ("gale" at this stage is semi-private, and this is the first time anything has been forwarded from it to public lists.) These people are no longer on my christmas card list, or whatever. I suppose I should now explain: 1) HavenCo is now making sufficient money and is stable enough to be "boring". This is a *good* thing. Over the past year we've completed most of the remaining engineering, and some of our other staff are taking over more and more of the operations, first and second level support, and administration. Nothing really breaks anymore; it's easy to add new switches and routers without changing the underlying architecture; it's all operations. 2) I'm hiring engineering and sales managers in the next 3-6 months to take over more day to day responsibilities. This is independent of anything else. 3) I'm working on sofware to automate more operations, and doing various conferences throughout 2002. We're also looking at other sites; when we actually move forward on one of those, it would be a good test for the software/hardware systems. (some of these have been deployed recently. I can now do an entire new customer install without ever even seeing the customer's hardware; comes pre-configured from the vendor with PXE and it just gets plugged in, racked, and auto-configures). This means regardless of anything else I will be spending more time elsewhere in the world. It is silly that I can do everything over ssh from wherever in the world and yet still sit in an office a few feet above the racks. If something breaks, we just flash to a hot spare machine remotely and then order a replacement. Worst case, someone pulls some drive carriers out of the front and puts them in a different machine; not exactly rocket science. 4) I'm working on a couple of side projects which may be ready in 2002. These include some book projects, an offshore open-source development framework with quality control, some papers to bring a couple of fields together (crypto to p2p, traffic analysis to finance), a comprehensive survey of Gerald Bull and engineering analysis of the supergun, and some ecash and tamper-resistance related projects. I hope to have "abstract" level work on all of them completed, and then finish one at a time when I have time. Right now, I'm finishing off the completely automated ISP, and 2 papers. 5) When such things are ready to deploy, I will either switch to just doing board things for HavenCo, or will stay on as CTO but have less day to day responsibilities. Some of them might be done by HavenCo, which would mean shifting from colo operations to that project. Some of them are pretty minor; they can be "trialed" without distracting from my day to day job. Most of them would want to be separate legal entities from HavenCo, but might involve the same people. The exact date of any transition is not fixed; I suspect it will be a gradual process from mid-2002 until mid-2003. 6) Even if I shift to working on something else, it's entirely possible I'd live on Sealand 1-2 weeks/month anyway. It's actually a decent place to get work done, just lacking in entertainment (which may be related) 7) The process of setting up additional secure colocation centers around the world is pretty slow -- even if we can do most of the technical things in 4 weeks, political negotiations with telcos, governments, etc. take a long time. They are also not something *I* am directly involved in. Also, various fiber projects elsewhere in the world have been delayed by the dotcom collapse, so the options are a bit more constrained as to where we can go. We can "cheat" by coloing with other people in those markets, with a common management interface and maybe network -- specialized offshore colo providers, telcos, or major colo providers who happen to be there. Motivations for this include: (I started thinking about this a lot more at HAL2001 in Holland, not entirely sober I guess...) 1) I have worked 7-day weeks for the last 18 months. I've had several trips to conferences, and 5 days of real vacation. I have slept on concrete floors and desks because we brought over a bunch of computer gear before furnishings. I have missed Burning Man twice, a bunch of interesting conferences, been woken up at 0300 and on dark boat rides, climbed around on ladders 300' above the ground attaching lights, given press interviews with impacted wisdom teeth and passed out at a pharmacy afterward waiting for a prescription for antibiotics, etc. I miss {girls, alcohol, sushi, ...}. SFBA really is one of the nicer parts of the world, and I've still not yet had a decent vacation in asia, australia, etc. It isn't that much fun to have a successful company if you can't actually enjoy the results (I have 5TB of mp3s, but haven't gone to a live concert since...1996) 2) That I really want to work on a software project. I have this lingering need to do something intellectually challenging -- HavenCo is certainly a feat of *something*, but it's not a huge scientific or technical challenge -- more an engineering, political, marketing, or integration challenge. Which is nice, but I'd like to do something which contributes to the scientific knowledge of mankind; I've taken advantage of amazing scientific advances made by people over thousands of years, but not really contributed much myself. 3) It's been 24 months since we started, and I'd like to something different at some point, just to see if it can be done successfully twice. And I can self-finance it this time, which is a definite plus. (having gone from about USD 30k in debt when I started HavenCo) 4) Doing sales and engineering at the same time is quite stressful. It really would be best to have two distinct people doing each role. 5) Good people are cheap to hire now :) (jobs at havenco.com, not me please) 6) It would be nice to work on something which isn't "man vs. mankind" but actually "man vs. nature". If the world's governments became reasonable overnight, and people stopped acts of terrorism, theft, or whatever, there would be no real need for HavenCo. Yet, there would still be motivation for doing things which actually contribute to man's knowledge, ability to conquer natural environments or other challenges, etc. HavenCo is a necessary precondition for a lot of those things, but is not the goal in and of itself. 7) The current market is actually a decent time to set up new projects; there's no competition since no one else is funded, there are much more reasonable expectations (HavenCo hasn't IPO'd for billions of dollars, but we're profitable about 6 months after we started selling stuff, and growing at a reasonable rate). Plus, now that HavenCo is up, it's entirely possible for an offshore-centric startup to get started with no real expenses; operate unincorporated or incorporate on some small caribbean island, accept payment in online currencies, have everyone communicate via PGP or ssh to the box, and colo initially one but then several boxes with us. Many of our customers operate exactly like that. For a sufficiently interesting project, we might even invest a box or two in it; so you could have zero startup or monthly costs during development. 8) I can. -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE] ryan at havenco.com CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd. +44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 19 11:43:52 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:43:52 +0000 Subject: Cypherpunk failures References: <3BF83317.8FE63295@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <3BF960F8.675A72C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "Major Variola (ret)" wrote: > > At 01:34 PM 11/18/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 08:03:49PM -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > >> So though the cypherpunks list is moribund, and cypherpunks > >> are no longer fashionable, > > > >True. The DC cypherpunks are thinking of changing their name to > something > >more cuddly. > > Harmless Little Nerds? > Cryptotubbies? > Happy Fun Infosec Society? Much too 1990s. These times suit more loyal-sounding names. "Programmers Rally Against Terrorism"? From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 19 11:50:47 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:50:47 +0000 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device References: <866B2EE1-DB34-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> <20011117152904.C7045@navel.introspect> Message-ID: <3BF96297.94A5A98E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> A propaganda weapon doesn't have to work, it just has to present a threat of working to people who may or may not understand how it is meant to work. It doesn't have to be a credible military weapon. A kamikaze airliner isn't a credible *military* weapon against anyone who can afford artillery. That didn't stop them though. The tall pipe that others mentioned would work well enough to scare people - all you need to do is find a way of convincing others that you've done it. One idea was to set one up in a tall block of flats. You know the sort where there is a 6-inch gap between flights of stairs in the stairwell, so if you stand at the top and look down you see right to the basement. There are abandoned 19 or 20 story blocks in grotty suburbs of London with stairwells like that, I bet the same is true of most big cities. You only have to break in for a single day. You set a number of lumps of U one above the other in such a way that when a higher one falls onto one below it will take it with it - maybe just tie them to the railings with thread, and put some old metal plates in the way to stop them bouncing out of the stack. Use lumps of lead for testing. The topmost one can be released by any simple mecahnism. You then assert publically that when the top one is dropped they will all cascade down and assemble a critical mass on the floor below. Hey presto, one big propaganda coup, one mass panic and evacuation of big city. The building will probably still be standing after it goes off, or fails to, but who will want to be first in? Ken Brown "Karsten M. Self" wrote: > > on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:24:31AM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote: > > On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 08:20 PM, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: > > > > Anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device. So the only issue > > > in building the device is the will to die for a cause. And the only > > > thing I find unfortunate in all of this is that there are so many > > > causes that people are willing to die for. And war will not make > > > those reasons go away - it will only encourage them. > > > > It's really _not_ this easy. It took China and India a while before > > they successfully tested an A-bomb (many years after they had the raw > > materials from their reactor programs). It may have taken the South > > Africans and Israelis a few years after getting materials, too. So, > > why didn't they just hammer U-235 into stainless steel mixing bowls > > and do it the way "anyone on this planet can build a nuclear device," > > one wonders. > > This analysis neglects consideration of several points: > > - Nation-states (even authoritarian ones) will likely want to create > both a sustained program, not merely crank out a few crude nukes, > and preserve the talent involved. One-offs are almost always easier > to complete than a production effort, but the lowered total cost is > offset by a higher unit cost. The terrorist organization can > accomplish its goals with crude tactics and marginally effective > devices. Credible military threat isn't as simple. > > - Credible military weapons have minimum requirements of both efficacy > -- efficient use of supercritical energy -- and predictability -- > having the damned thing go off in the silo / bunker / hanger / > munitions dump rather than the chosen target isn't particularly > useful. From declan at well.com Mon Nov 19 17:08:43 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:08:43 -0500 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: ; from baptista@pccf.net on Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 03:15:39PM -0500 References: <3BF96297.94A5A98E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20011119200843.A27218@cluebot.com> On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 03:15:39PM -0500, baptista at pccf.net wrote: > i must admit i'm warming up to Tim May's tall pipe means of attaining > critical mass - much easier then playing with explosive and timing > devices - my only question is do our experts see a problem with > that means of delivery? Ah, yes. There are many -- dozens, perhaps hundreds -- of well-known, published nuclear engineers with practical experience in designing, engineering, and constructing atomic weapons posting on cypherpunks. I'm sure those folks in the audience will be delighted to answer your questions at greath length. -Declan From faustine at lokmail.net Mon Nov 19 17:20:11 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:20:11 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: <200111200120.UAA02456@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 3208 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ign at ign.com Mon Nov 19 20:23:35 2001 From: ign at ign.com (ign at ign.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:23:35 PST Subject: News Flash: Sega: Super Monkey Ball References: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7273 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at dizum.com Mon Nov 19 11:30:16 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:30:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: Pay to Play in Information Markets Message-ID: <8f5f094fc8b717cc3e52d1a75656a5cd@dizum.com> George MW writes: > I played around with MN for a while, one of the things that > disapointed me was that you tend to lose mojo just by > running the client. It seemed to me that the idea that > everything you do should involve a cost one way or another > was a mistake, it seemed to me that the housekeeping/say > hello kind of stuff shuld be free. Publishing also, since 1) > there's no guarentee that the site you publish blocks to > will keep them for any nonzero length of time and 2) > Theoretically the people you publish to will expect to make their > "profit" from other people requesting those blocks. This has been a long debate among hard-core capitalist types who want to see everything have a price. In a voluntary system for exchanging and publishing information, who should pay and who should be paid? Of course the easy answer is that the market will decide. But when you're trying to design the mechanisms then you have to anticipate the market's needs. You have to predict what the market will decide. Unfortunately, the realistic answer seems to be that many possible patterns of payment will be desired by the market. In some cases providers of data will pay others to read it: advertising, political or persuasive arguments, reputation-building essays. In other cases people who want the data will pay those who provide it: music and other arts, entertaining and informative works. MN identifies three roles: author, consumer, and publisher (they don't necessarily use these names). The author creates the data (or supplies data authored by someone else). The publisher provides the resources to make it available: disk space, network access. The consumer downloads the data and uses it. In some cases the author and publisher may be the same. It seems reasonable that the consumer would pay the publisher for most data. Presuming that the consumer is going to the trouble of downloading the data, he must want it and so he will be willing to pay for it. There may be some examples as noted above where the author wants to subsidize the consumer's access. In the MN model, the consumer pays the publisher, and the author pays the publisher as well. This latter aspect is the most controversial. Why should an author pay to get his data distributed? Well, as noted above there are some cases where it makes sense, but in those cases the author also wants to encourage consumers to download his work. Just putting it on servers is not enough. MN does not provide for a subsidy or payment to downloaders. Ideally the publisher should be able to pay the author for the work. This corresponds most closely to the traditional publishing model. Talented authors get paid by their publishers, who then receive payment themselves by consumers. For this to work though the publisher must be able to make judgements about which authors are talented. In the traditional publishing world this is handled by reputation and human judgement. It might be possible to automate this to a considerable extent using cryptographic reputations, but it is a new area that would need much infrastructure development. A mailing list such as this one is a microcosm of an information exchange, one where no payment is possible. Each person who posts puts some effort into creating his message (some more than others). Some people's messages are worth reading and subscribers might even be willing to pay to get them. Others serve more to gratify the ego of the writer and he might have to pay to get his contributions read. Imagine a cash-based mailing list (perhaps using play money). Each contributer would either pay or get paid for his submissions, depending on his current reputation. Subscribers would have a quantity of cash flow that they could funnel towards the reputation of the authors they enjoyed the most. Slashdot's karma system is similar to this and it does a pretty good job of separating the quality from the crap, although there are complaints that it promotes groupthink. A system based more openly on cash payments could be a model for future information markets. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 19 12:39:51 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:39:51 +0000 Subject: The Crypto Winter References: <29FDF574-DD26-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BF96E17.94ED9473@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Tim May wrote: > So, here's the punchline, > > Regardless of companies trying to make money, not be run out of business > by money laundering laws, trying to be banker- and Homeland > Fascism-friendly, IS THERE A FUNDAMENTAL REASON WHY TWO-WAY > UNTRACEABILITY IS NOT "POSSIBLE." > > I believe counterexamples have already been developed, showing there is > nothing wired into the nature of mathematics that makes two-way > untraceability impossible. I'll save these examples for later. I don't know if there is. I'll have to think about it. Any train of thought that involves a distinction betwen "seller" and "buyer" is probably going up the wrong track. As is any that involves a distinction between "cash" and "goods?" Yes, I suspect. So we can think of it as barter, but digital barter, so moneychanging *is* a good model. It is sufficient to prove that you can do anoynymous, safe, digital money-changing. The full, hard, question then is something like this: Is there are protocol that allows moneychanging between different forms of digital money that 1) allows complete anonymity to both partners to a transaction, and 2) provides strong defences against fraud to both parties, and 3) works well if one partner has much more to lose than the other (& therefore for arbitrarily large amounts) and 4) works without a trusted 3rd party (broker, bank, court, police, godfather, whatever), and 5) can be relied upon for a single transaction - in other words the partners have no previous knowledge of each other, and need never have a further relationship. ? The protocol needs to be stateless between trades. (though not, of course, within them). Everyone comes to the table with no history and leaves it with no requirement to return. Several slightly weaker cases are of course trivially possible, if we allow some pseudonymity, or assume that the transactions are small enough that fraud will hurt neither party. It is trivially possible if there are repeated pseudnymous transactions, and there is enough time for the parties to build up a reputation. Requirement (4) need not be true if both parties are allowed to have a pseudonymous relationship with a 3rd party, but that just gets us back to banking, which is boring. It is also easy if only one party is really worried about fraud. Ordinary cash transactions for small amounts work like that already. The shopkeeper doesn't care who I am or, really, if my cash is any good. If I pass him a few dud coins he has lost a tiny part of his turnover. I do care that the goods I am buying are good though. So he has to reassure me of his reliability not the other way round. Though they do care if lots of people start to pass forged coins. If their turnover is high enough they have an interest in the average quality of money, not the quality of any one coin. The system only has to be good enough, not perfect. Pseudonymous exchange can be achieved by breaking trades down into small increments none of which is significant enough to damage either player. If I'm going to give you a thousand pounds for 1600 dollars we could do it a dollar at a a time and just withdraw - but we know this already so no point in thinking aloud along those lines Ken Brown From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 19 19:04:00 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:04:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, alphabeta121 wrote: > what does C-A-C-L stand for? Crypto-Anarcho-Capitalist-Libertarian It's the recognition that these approaches to social engineering are united by a shared interest in maximum profit and a failure to take human psychology as a boundary condition. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 19 19:19:43 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:19:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011117174902.007b37b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote: > At 03:15 PM 11/17/01 -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: > >on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:36:32PM -0800, alphabeta121 > >(alphabeta121 at hotmail.com) wrote: > >> what does C-A-C-L stand for? > > > >Crypto-Anarcho Capitalist Libertarian, per archives. Shorthand for a > >common, if not prevailing, political viewpoint among active listmembers. > > > > That label is > > 1. inconsistent (libertarian & anarchy) Actually it isn't. It isn't equating 'libertarian' with 'anarchy'. They are seperate lines of thought. However, they do share some fumdamental goals and world views. A shared set that sets them apart from other approaches to social engineering (eg socialism, democracy, etc.). In particular they believe that economics is the 'end'. Other segments see it as a 'means' or 'mechanism'. It is a critical distinction when it comes to deciding for whom a society exists and how 'benefit' should be measured. C-A-C-L's would let people die from thirst before interfering in a 'free market'. Others would say screw the market and give that man a drink. > 2. redundant ('capitalist' and libertarian) Not congruent. > 3. nonsensical --cryptography is a neutral technology with debatable > social consequences Technology is 'neutral' only within in a 'pure' context. The instant 'psychology' gets injected, as in 'how do I use this?', all bets are off. Technologies have consequences. The failure of most is in not realizing the only hope is to discover and distribute as fast as possible. Anything else leads to failure of the system. However, as I've said above, it isn't crypto that they share a common thread on. The social consequences of crypto are debatable only because it's still a baby... > 4. one poster's label; and anyone can post here More an observation of shared motive of a particular segment of the other posts (who self-apply these labels mind you). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From infomacao at giganetstore.com Mon Nov 19 13:21:59 2001 From: infomacao at giganetstore.com (infomacao at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:21:59 -0000 Subject: As dicas do Rudolfo Message-ID: <07f7700222113b1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2574 bytes Desc: not available URL: From baptista at pccf.net Mon Nov 19 18:27:19 2001 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:27:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <20011119200843.A27218@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 03:15:39PM -0500, baptista at pccf.net wrote: > > i must admit i'm warming up to Tim May's tall pipe means of attaining > > critical mass - much easier then playing with explosive and timing > > devices - my only question is do our experts see a problem with > > that means of delivery? > > Ah, yes. There are many -- dozens, perhaps hundreds -- of well-known, > published nuclear engineers with practical experience in designing, > engineering, and constructing atomic weapons posting on > cypherpunks. I'm sure those folks in the audience will be delighted to > answer your questions at greath length. well we seem to have some self proclaimed experts here - have faith Declan. After all being a journalist is an act of faith these days - just extend the concept. -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot-god.com/ The dot.GOD Registry, Limited The Executive Plaza, Suite 908 150 West 51st Street Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173 Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773 From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 19 13:37:34 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:37:34 +0000 Subject: Nuclear Pipe Bombs References: <2F402545-DD2D-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BF97B9E.B73D9858@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Tim May wrote: [...] > As I made clear in my post, it's not _my_ idea. It's one of the standard > "basement nuke" proposed designs. Same here of course. [...] > > I will mention that Ken Brown's "many pieces along the length of the > pipe" is the worst way to do this: it buys nothing over the two pieces > approach and it causes all sorts of problems with the pieces getting too > hot as they come together on the way down. The only reason for mentioning it was that it is perhaps a way people who somehow got hold of the the fissile material, but otherwise had access only to stuff you could pick up on the street, could bodge something together that that would scare others. I'd have no expectation of a nuclear explosion from such a rig. The only advantage is that it is cheap and can be set up in a few hours and (perhaps) might make a truly scary booby-trap. It might be even more effective if it didn't have a timer. A few kilos of fissile uranium literally hanging by a thread in a housing project would make the TV news worldwide. > (For example, the penultimate > chunk falling toward the ultimate chunk...likely to already be melting > and spraying molten U-235 inside the pipe. Just another fizzle. And > fizzles are not very interesting, for reasons I stated. A way too > expensive way to spread mere radiological terror, which could be done > much more cheaply and easily by taking spent fuel rods and blowing them > up, or just by grinding up spent fuel rods or other nuclear waste and > then dumping it out of a plane over a city.) Back to Heinlein again... Ken Brown Shit. If the UK government passes this law they are proposing then this email would probably count as illegal. And anonymous postings are often so tedious. From faustine at lokmail.net Mon Nov 19 19:28:37 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:28:37 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: <200111200328.WAA20968@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2486 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 19 22:31:55 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:31:55 -0800 Subject: Nuclear Pipe Bombs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011119223038.0332e610@idiom.com> At 05:23 PM 11/19/2001 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote: >On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > > Won't work on Berkeley, though. The City Council declared Berkeley a > > "Nuclear Free Zone." Guess that leaves only conventional weapons. > >Those restrictions usually also prohibit the *design* of nuclear weapons >(don't know if Berzerkeley's does) in which case they are >unconstitutional because of the First. The ban implicitly covers americium-based smoke detectors, but fortunately when I lived in the East Bay I was a few blocks out of Hayward city limits so I could use them, as long as I drove the long way around when I bought more :-) From faustine at lokmail.net Mon Nov 19 19:37:34 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:37:34 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: <200111200337.WAA23572@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 739 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ryan at havenco.com Mon Nov 19 14:37:46 2001 From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:37:46 +0000 Subject: "quitting havenco", not quite! Message-ID: <20011119223746.A28008@atreides.havenco.com> Two people appear to have forwarded communications from a semi-private chat system through two mailing lists to cypherpunks. ("gale" at this stage is semi-private, and this is the first time anything has been forwarded from it to public lists.) These people are no longer on my christmas card list, or whatever. I suppose I should now explain: 1) HavenCo is now making sufficient money and is stable enough to be "boring". This is a *good* thing. Over the past year we've completed most of the remaining engineering, and some of our other staff are taking over more and more of the operations, first and second level support, and administration. Nothing really breaks anymore; it's easy to add new switches and routers without changing the underlying architecture; it's all operations. 2) I'm hiring engineering and sales managers in the next 3-6 months to take over more day to day responsibilities. This is independent of anything else. 3) I'm working on sofware to automate more operations, and doing various conferences throughout 2002. We're also looking at other sites; when we actually move forward on one of those, it would be a good test for the software/hardware systems. (some of these have been deployed recently. I can now do an entire new customer install without ever even seeing the customer's hardware; comes pre-configured from the vendor with PXE and it just gets plugged in, racked, and auto-configures). This means regardless of anything else I will be spending more time elsewhere in the world. It is silly that I can do everything over ssh from wherever in the world and yet still sit in an office a few feet above the racks. If something breaks, we just flash to a hot spare machine remotely and then order a replacement. Worst case, someone pulls some drive carriers out of the front and puts them in a different machine; not exactly rocket science. 4) I'm working on a couple of side projects which may be ready in 2002. These include some book projects, an offshore open-source development framework with quality control, some papers to bring a couple of fields together (crypto to p2p, traffic analysis to finance), a comprehensive survey of Gerald Bull and engineering analysis of the supergun, and some ecash and tamper-resistance related projects. I hope to have "abstract" level work on all of them completed, and then finish one at a time when I have time. Right now, I'm finishing off the completely automated ISP, and 2 papers. 5) When such things are ready to deploy, I will either switch to just doing board things for HavenCo, or will stay on as CTO but have less day to day responsibilities. Some of them might be done by HavenCo, which would mean shifting from colo operations to that project. Some of them are pretty minor; they can be "trialed" without distracting from my day to day job. Most of them would want to be separate legal entities from HavenCo, but might involve the same people. The exact date of any transition is not fixed; I suspect it will be a gradual process from mid-2002 until mid-2003. 6) Even if I shift to working on something else, it's entirely possible I'd live on Sealand 1-2 weeks/month anyway. It's actually a decent place to get work done, just lacking in entertainment (which may be related) 7) The process of setting up additional secure colocation centers around the world is pretty slow -- even if we can do most of the technical things in 4 weeks, political negotiations with telcos, governments, etc. take a long time. They are also not something *I* am directly involved in. Also, various fiber projects elsewhere in the world have been delayed by the dotcom collapse, so the options are a bit more constrained as to where we can go. We can "cheat" by coloing with other people in those markets, with a common management interface and maybe network -- specialized offshore colo providers, telcos, or major colo providers who happen to be there. Motivations for this include: (I started thinking about this a lot more at HAL2001 in Holland, not entirely sober I guess...) 1) I have worked 7-day weeks for the last 18 months. I've had several trips to conferences, and 5 days of real vacation. I have slept on concrete floors and desks because we brought over a bunch of computer gear before furnishings. I have missed Burning Man twice, a bunch of interesting conferences, been woken up at 0300 and on dark boat rides, climbed around on ladders 300' above the ground attaching lights, given press interviews with impacted wisdom teeth and passed out at a pharmacy afterward waiting for a prescription for antibiotics, etc. I miss {girls, alcohol, sushi, ...}. SFBA really is one of the nicer parts of the world, and I've still not yet had a decent vacation in asia, australia, etc. It isn't that much fun to have a successful company if you can't actually enjoy the results (I have 5TB of mp3s, but haven't gone to a live concert since...1996) 2) That I really want to work on a software project. I have this lingering need to do something intellectually challenging -- HavenCo is certainly a feat of *something*, but it's not a huge scientific or technical challenge -- more an engineering, political, marketing, or integration challenge. Which is nice, but I'd like to do something which contributes to the scientific knowledge of mankind; I've taken advantage of amazing scientific advances made by people over thousands of years, but not really contributed much myself. 3) It's been 24 months since we started, and I'd like to something different at some point, just to see if it can be done successfully twice. And I can self-finance it this time, which is a definite plus. (having gone from about USD 30k in debt when I started HavenCo) 4) Doing sales and engineering at the same time is quite stressful. It really would be best to have two distinct people doing each role. 5) Good people are cheap to hire now :) (jobs at havenco.com, not me please) 6) It would be nice to work on something which isn't "man vs. mankind" but actually "man vs. nature". If the world's governments became reasonable overnight, and people stopped acts of terrorism, theft, or whatever, there would be no real need for HavenCo. Yet, there would still be motivation for doing things which actually contribute to man's knowledge, ability to conquer natural environments or other challenges, etc. HavenCo is a necessary precondition for a lot of those things, but is not the goal in and of itself. 7) The current market is actually a decent time to set up new projects; there's no competition since no one else is funded, there are much more reasonable expectations (HavenCo hasn't IPO'd for billions of dollars, but we're profitable about 6 months after we started selling stuff, and growing at a reasonable rate). Plus, now that HavenCo is up, it's entirely possible for an offshore-centric startup to get started with no real expenses; operate unincorporated or incorporate on some small caribbean island, accept payment in online currencies, have everyone communicate via PGP or ssh to the box, and colo initially one but then several boxes with us. Many of our customers operate exactly like that. For a sufficiently interesting project, we might even invest a box or two in it; so you could have zero startup or monthly costs during development. 8) I can. -- Ryan Lackey ryan at havenco.com CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd. the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F From help at kick2.co.kr Mon Nov 19 22:57:53 2001 From: help at kick2.co.kr (ũ) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:57:53 Subject: 󿡼 ̾Ʈ, 10ų, 5ġ ϰ Message-ID: <200111191354.FAA06373@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 18489 bytes Desc: not available URL: From japjill at hotmail.com Mon Nov 19 16:27:06 2001 From: japjill at hotmail.com (jillian hooper) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 00:27:06 +0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Hi. I was following through researching gaslighting due to some horific things which have occured to me over the last 7 years. Yesterday I hit the Phantom Hearse Owners Association and got ther4 web site. I hit one of their fun buttons 'raiders' and they4 downloaded my microsft 200 version and I think my files. A number 2544097 recconnection number came up but I could't get reconnected to them. My modem couldn't be found. I now supsect as your article highlighted the threat to privacy that this is what has happened to me. To me this is just part of the ongoing harrassment as the father of my child has been involved with hearses fro a long time. I am interested in talking with you about gaslighting as I now find that I have to prove what was done to me or I will lose custody of my daughter. I don't know if this is your field or not but would appreciate you thoughts on these matters of privacy etc. I tried to contact the Los Angeles Hearse Owners Associaiton which I recently joined but the leader comes up in purple and mysteriously their details can't be found. Looking forward to hearing from u. Thank u. Kind regards Jillian Hooper _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From decoy at iki.fi Mon Nov 19 15:27:49 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 01:27:49 +0200 (EET) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <3BF8DB69.17842.427D27@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >It's amazing how many people assert this, even though it's clearly >wrong. A gold standard does NOT mean that the amount of currency in >circulation equals the amount of gold in the vaults, it means that the >currency is exchangeable for gold at a fixed rate. Obviously, there can >be more gold in the vaults than you need to actually exchange every >dollar for the correct amount of gold. Less obviously, there can be >less. Of course, the system also exposes the currency to fluctuations in world wide supply of gold. It's not sane policy to tie one's unit of currency to any particular good -- think about what it would mean if the chosen good was unrefined oil, a particular crop or electrical power. One'll get the picture fairly soon. It's not really sane to opt for a tie-in to the supply of a particular currency, either -- that's actually even worse, since the people printing the bills can cause fluctuations in the exchange rate even easier than they could if they were just digging up precious metals up from the crust. Hence, private, floating currency, which, again, is old news on the list. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 From decoy at iki.fi Mon Nov 19 15:43:31 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 01:43:31 +0200 (EET) Subject: Pay to Play in Information Markets In-Reply-To: <8f5f094fc8b717cc3e52d1a75656a5cd@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: >Of course the easy answer is that the market will decide. But when >you're trying to design the mechanisms then you have to anticipate the >market's needs. You have to predict what the market will decide. I.e. you have to predict what the people want. Sane engineering, wouldn't you say? >Unfortunately, the realistic answer seems to be that many possible >patterns of payment will be desired by the market. In some cases >providers of data will pay others to read it: advertising, political or >persuasive arguments, reputation-building essays. In other cases people >who want the data will pay those who provide it: music and other arts, >entertaining and informative works. After which the one who gets the proportions right wins the game. The others follow suit as soon as they can predict/acknowledge that their prediction wasn't as accurate as it could have been. It's called competition. Where's the problem? You seem to be forgetting the costs of setting up the service in the first place. If you factor those in, the producers certainly should be on the receiving end. OTOH, prices should be dynamic (derived from what is actually happening inside the system), and should always permit negative values as well, to account for unexpected flows of income. I think this is what you're after, basically. One shouldn't determine beforehand who pays who, even if the rates themselves are floating. >Ideally the publisher should be able to pay the author for the work. This is true, also. Price discovery is something not easily implemented algorithmically. Perhaps MN should bill the services differentially based on demand and blocks reserved? If there was a more lucrative author to be served, the author whose blocks are currently being stored would have to pay? Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 20 04:36:51 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 06:36:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111200337.WAA23572@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Faustine wrote: > Jim wrote: > > >C-A-C-L's would let people die from thirst before interfering in a 'free > >market'. Others would say screw the market and give that man a drink. > > > I'd give that man a drink out of my last canteen--but I sure as hell wouldn't > force anyone else to. Then you have missed a fundamental aspect of human society and the responbility (shades of Hayek) that goes along with it. Hayek, von Mises, etc. would be disappointed. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 20 07:52:44 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 07:52:44 -0800 Subject: In praise of gold In-Reply-To: <3BF9576F.26244.226F3DD@localhost> References: <971C0336-DD57-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> <3.0.6.32.20011119170343.007d3580@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011120075244.007cab50@pop.sprynet.com> At 07:03 PM 11/19/01 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >On 19 Nov 2001, at 17:40, Tim May wrote: > >> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 05:03 PM, David Honig wrote: >> > >> > Yes, but what this thread has ignored is that gold (and other >> > densely precious things) were valued *in and of themselves* and so >> > using them as money was not symbolic. You traded your goat >> > for a goat's worth of gold; if trust evaporated overnight >> > the gold is still worth something. >> >> Not really. It was still a matter of belief that that gold coin, or gold >> nugget, would be worth something. >> >> "In and of itself" is a very vague and intangible concept. >> >> --Tim May > >I understand your point, you can't eat gold, it won't keep you >warm and dry in a storm, it really is mostly only good for >you in that other people will also give you stuff for it BUT >I think the other side is pretty clear also. Gold isn't like, >say, the good will of the king, which becomes wortheless as soon >as there's a new king. I suspect that it never ocurred to most people >during gold standard days that gold could in principle become >wothless (although alchemists understood perfectly well that >being able to turn lead into gold is only the key to riches if >you alone posess the secret). > >Anyway, there are very good reasons why gold is better than >anything else as a basis of currency. BTW, I wasn't arguing it is "better" nowadays; I'd think the kilowatt-hour (aka joules) would be more useful today. I was thinking about how the use of inert metals (etc) arose historically. At first the 'trust' was minimal and it was a 1:1 trade for the more portable gold. >2) Gold does not rust or decay. Again, very important if you >have to keep reserves. Also why it was available to cavemen, and why it was shiny, which was attractive. >3) Gold is uniform. Diamonds are all different, oil comes in >a plethora of types and grades. Tobacco was used as money >in the early days of the american colonies, with the (easily >predictable) result that people smokes the good stuff and used the >crappiest stuff they could find to pay their debts. Nothing >could be purer than pure gold. Isotopically pure gold :-) Watts are 'uniform'; so is an N% solution of ethanol (if you want to put your joules in your car, etc.) >4) Gold is elemental. It's much more plausible that somebody will >come up with an economic way to synthesize, say, diamonds than >gold. > >5) Gold makes women sleep with you. I don't know why they >like it, but they do. They sleep with you because of your large cattle herd only they have accepted abstracted value and settle for gold or stocks... From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 20 07:58:32 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 07:58:32 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20011117174902.007b37b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011120075832.007cd9b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:19 PM 11/19/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >C-A-C-L's would let people die from thirst before interfering in a 'free >market'. Others would say screw the market and give that man a drink. No, a libertarian would say "screw anyone who'd initiate force against me to make me to do this" and then make his own decision. >> 2. redundant ('capitalist' and libertarian) > >Not congruent. Capitalism is a natural result of free people. >> 3. nonsensical --cryptography is a neutral technology with debatable >> social consequences > >Technology is 'neutral' only within in a 'pure' context. The instant >'psychology' gets injected, as in 'how do I use this?', all bets are off. >Technologies have consequences. The failure of most is in not realizing >the only hope is to discover and distribute as fast as possible. Anything >else leads to failure of the system. So Jim suppose we just invented metals. You go debate its social consequences, I've got some forging to do. >> 4. one poster's label; and anyone can post here > >More an observation of shared motive of a particular segment of the other >posts (who self-apply these labels mind you). More an explanation of signal to noise ratio for future historians. From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 20 08:42:15 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:42:15 -0800 Subject: Liberating the Phillipine Islands In-Reply-To: <3BF9DF2E.7B3110E5@mozcom.com> Message-ID: <8DAE4AC4-DDD5-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 08:42 PM, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: > In another life, I sell technical documents, so I monitor bookseller > lists. This could interest cypherpunks. > > Presumably, the reports to be destroyed include everything to do with > crypto. > > If I had the money, I would zip over to the States, visit my favorite > depository library (where the librarians know me and are certain to be > as disgusted by this as I am) and offer to relieve them of anything that > can no longer appear on their shelves. Fill a container with "waste > paper and microfilm" and send it over here. > > Dream on, Marc... > > Marc de Piolenc > Philippines > And help the narco-nuko-islamo-terrorists in the PI? I just watched U.S. Defense Secretary and the latest PI chick president talking about the Phillipines on tract to be the next major center of Islamic unrest. "We are prepared to bomb Manila in order to root out terrorism," he might as well have said. The U.S. seems to be settling into a comfortable pattern: rolling application of overwhelming high tech power, with the cruise missiles, bombs, and materiel paid for by taxpayers who enjoy the light show on the evening news. The PI chick prez is promising more cooperation in the war on terrorism, so look for more crackdowns on civil liberties in the PI. --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 20 06:28:17 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:28:17 -0500 Subject: "quitting havenco", not quite! Message-ID: > Ryan Lackey[SMTP:ryan at havenco.com] wrote [...] > 1) HavenCo is now making sufficient money and is stable enough to be > "boring". This is a *good* thing. Over the past year we've completed > most of the remaining engineering, and some of our other staff are > taking over more and more of the operations, first and second level > support, and administration. Nothing really breaks anymore; it's easy > to add new switches and routers without changing the underlying > architecture; it's all operations. [...] > Ryan Lackey ryan at havenco.com > Ryan and the other HavenCo folks deserve *massive* kudos for this. (now, when is the HavenCo remailer going online? :-) Peter Trei From tonus at dsinet.org Tue Nov 20 01:13:55 2001 From: tonus at dsinet.org (Casper Aleva) Date: 20 Nov 2001 10:13:55 +0100 Subject: subscribe cypherpunks Message-ID: <1006247655.16470.12.camel@bintang> subscribe cypherpunks From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Tue Nov 20 09:14:15 2001 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 10:14:15 -0700 Subject: ecoin.net: anonymous payments today? Message-ID: Back in 1999, Steve Lihn posted to cypherpunks and some other mailing lists about his new online payment system, ecoin.net. He intended to work towards a blind coin system based on David Wagner's alternative to Chaum blinding, as implemented by Ben Laurie in the lucre library. Surprisingly, he is still in business. Some recent press releases: 8/15/01 eCoin OutExchange service is released. You can transfer fund to/from PayPal and e-Gold. Login and check it out. 7/25/01 Anonymous Cash Certificate is released. MMDH is finally in commercial use. Login and check it out. 6/30/01 PayPal Payment Interface is supported. Now you can transfer fund from your credit card by PayPal. 6/25/01 Managed Access Solution is released. Use eCoin to pay your subscription! 1/16/01 eCoin.net announces that e-Gold payment interface is formally supported. You will be able to purchase eCoins through your e-Gold account! Sounds like it might be worth it just for the transfer to/from PayPal. Also could be an alternative way to fund your e-Gold account anonymously. With the blinding it could be a real anonymous payment system. Credit card to PayPal, PayPal to eCoin, transfer eCoin anonymously, then from eCoin back to PayPal. Anyone want to try a transfer experimentally? From subscriptions at mcafee.com Tue Nov 20 10:42:02 2001 From: subscriptions at mcafee.com (subscriptions at mcafee.com) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 10:42:02 -0800 Subject: Your McAfee.com Account Message-ID: Dear joe cypherpunk, Your McAfee.com account information has been updated. There is no action needed on your part. This message is simply a reminder and a notification to ensure the security of your account. If you did not make a change to your account or you believe that the security of your account may have been breached, please click here to verify your account information: -> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/membership/update_profile_form.asp?OEMID= Sincerely, McAfee.com Membership Services From cupid at adultfriendfinder.com Tue Nov 20 02:45:07 2001 From: cupid at adultfriendfinder.com (cupid at adultfriendfinder.com) Date: 20 Nov 2001 10:45:07 -0000 Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo Message-ID: <20011120104507.454.qmail@e81.friendfinder.com> Dear oddodoodo, Cupid has arrived with your latest matches from Adult Friend Finder! The following are some of the recent profiles that match your preferences listed on http://AdultFriendFinder.com: Match 1 HANDLE: AB10_Lick TITLE: "Aberdeen Based Licking" PROFILE: http://adultfriendfinder.com/cupid/13877881_58963 LOCATION: Aberdeen, Scotland GENDER: AGE: 24 You have a total of 1 new Cupid matches! 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This email was sent to you in association with the opt-in member, "oddodoodo" on Adult Friend Finder. To turn your Cupid Service off, log in using your handle and password at http://AdultFriendFinder.com and click on "Update Cupid Mail." Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on the text link provided. Thank you. ******************************************************* From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 20 07:56:02 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 10:56:02 -0500 Subject: The bookburning begins... Message-ID: My favorite sentence from the referenced article is: :"We have to get away from the ethos that knowledge is good, knowledge should be publicly available, that information will liberate us," said University of Pennsylvania bioethicist Arthur Caplan." > F. Marc de Piolenc[SMTP:piolenc at mozcom.com] writes: > > In another life, I sell technical documents, so I monitor bookseller > lists. This could interest cypherpunks. > > Presumably, the reports to be destroyed include everything to do with > crypto. > > If I had the money, I would zip over to the States, visit my favorite > depository library (where the librarians know me and are certain to be > as disgusted by this as I am) and offer to relieve them of anything that > can no longer appear on their shelves. Fill a container with "waste > paper and microfilm" and send it over here. > > Dream on, Marc... > > Marc de Piolenc > Philippines > > Message: 23 > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:21:10 -0600 (CST) > From: Jonathan Grobe > To: insider at lists.bookfinder.com > Subject: [BI] Goverment asking libraries to destroy government reports > > Not only is the government removing much material from its websites it > is > also asking depository libraries (which are sent government reports > free) to remove and destroy many government reports--because of > the recent terrorist incidents. > > Any comments? Any bookdealers destroying books which they think might be > useful to terrorists? > > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-111801inform.story > > Jonathan Grobe > > From sales at mobileadds.com Tue Nov 20 03:00:05 2001 From: sales at mobileadds.com (sid thompson) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:00:05 -0000 Subject: EARN AS YOU DRIVE Message-ID: <200111201050.CAA14464@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1412 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jya at pipeline.com Tue Nov 20 11:05:56 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:05:56 -0800 Subject: The bookburning begins... In-Reply-To: <3BF9DF2E.7B3110E5@mozcom.com> Message-ID: The LA Times report makes fair points but much of the information being removed from selected repositories is available elsewhere, as previously discussed here. An example is the removal of info on dams and reservoirs. That is widely available elsewhere, as shown on Google. In particular the Web site of the US Bureau of Reclamation (www.usbr.gov) still provides extensive, detailed info on dams and reservoirs west of the Mississippi: regional and local locational maps, type of dam and construction, capacity of reservoir, photos and so on. Information on nuclear plants, pipelines, infrastructure is still available at government and industry sites. Some of this is better than government resources. The peculiar decision of the Federation of American Scientists to withdraw files in the national interest has been widely cited. And perhaps the info was indeed potentially lethal. But it is also possible that withdrawals are being made for disinformational and propaganda reasons as always done in times of national emergencies. There is a frenzy of release of disinformation by western governments to reputable media outlets, nearly always without supporting documentation for readers to independently decide on its truthfulness. Instead, reputations of the media are being used to burnish the disinfo, and, wow, are these media egos delighted at playing the wargame with the Serious and Important People. Woodward and Hersh in the US, and a bevy of natsec luminaries in the UK, are falling all over themselves at putting out unsupported disinfo fed to them by their governments and agents of governments. The charade of the abandoned Al Qaeda documents, the bin Laden video leaked to The Telegraph, the panic-inducing disclosures to Woodward, Hersh, Loeb, Gertz, the DoD calls for terrorism-fighting technologies, Ashforth's repeated claims of imminent domestic attack, what more could be done to alarm the populace of the leading nations needing a big boost for their corrupt intelligence and military industries? Who better to drive that panic than the complicit media industries -- news, television, movies, religion, the stock market. Declaring information too valuable to be allowed public access is a continuation of the secrecy industry by other means. Reporters need not document their reports, just proclaim the planted documents are bona fide, believe or die, as the preachers of all faiths scare their flocks. Thank Minerva none of the cpunk preachers spew that reputation capital shit. From declan at well.com Tue Nov 20 08:19:33 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:19:33 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:04:00PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20011120111933.A1838@cluebot.com> On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:04:00PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, alphabeta121 wrote: > > > what does C-A-C-L stand for? > > Crypto-Anarcho-Capitalist-Libertarian > > It's the recognition that these approaches to social engineering are > united by a shared interest in maximum profit and a failure to take human > psychology as a boundary condition. Or, put another way, it's a crankish label applied by someone with serious comprehension problems. Everyone else can safely ignore it. -Declan From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 20 09:05:59 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:05:59 -0500 Subject: Liberating the Phillipine Islands Message-ID: > Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] wrote: > > > Marc de Piolenc > > Philippines > > > > And help the narco-nuko-islamo-terrorists in the PI? > > I just watched U.S. Defense Secretary and the latest PI chick president > talking about the Phillipines on tract to be the next major center of > Islamic unrest. > > "We are prepared to bomb Manila in order to root out terrorism," he > might as well have said. > > The U.S. seems to be settling into a comfortable pattern: rolling > application of overwhelming high tech power, with the cruise missiles, > bombs, and materiel paid for by taxpayers who enjoy the light show on > the evening news. > > --Tim May, Occupied America > One of the positive points of having young kids is that you get to watch cartoons without embarassment. This post instantly brought to mind the show 'Pinky and the Brain', with Bush and Cheney respectively filling the title roles. Pinky: "What are we gong to do tonight, Brain?" Brain: "Same thing we do every night, you numbskull..." [wait for it] "Try to TAKE OVER THE WORLD!" ---------- Peter Trei From piolenc at mozcom.com Mon Nov 19 20:11:26 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:11:26 +0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device References: <200111191933.fAJJXRD22902@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <3BF9D7EE.77E5BB08@mozcom.com> And you might mention for the nuclearly impaired that the fuel used in RTGs is not the same as the fissionables used in reactors and weapons. Marc de Piolenc Eric Cordian wrote: > > Peter Trei wrote: > > > I have a vague memory of seeing a photo of a ?3 inch? ball of Pu (isotopic > > composition unknown) in one of those old Time-Life books. The ball glowed > > a dull red with it's own internal heat. > > Sounds like plutonium-238, NASA's favorite fuel for deep space > Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators (RTGs). It puts out 0.54 > kilowatts/kilogram and has a half life of 87.8 years. > > -- > Eric Michael Cordian 0+ > O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin From mbcpro at hanmir.com Mon Nov 19 19:14:00 2001 From: mbcpro at hanmir.com (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?sK2w5sjx?=) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:14:00 +0900 Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIMPWvcW/tcittbUguriw7SC/tb7utbUguei/7LDt?= Message-ID: <200111200317.fAK3HE805155@www.kirc.net> MBC 무빙 잉글리쉬 안녕하세요? MBC무비잉글리쉬입니다. MBC무비잉글리쉬는 세계적인 기업 월트 디즈니사와 제휴로멀티미디어 통합기술을 이용한 최첨단디지털 교재로 데이터압축방식인 M-PEG를 구현하여 만들었습니다. 여기에는 캡션 기능이 첨가되어(영문자막, 한글자막, 무자막)선택과 DICTAION 기능이 첨가 되어 즉석에서 듣기능력 평가를할 수 있도록 기획되었습니다. MBC 아카데미 무비잉글리쉬는 올바른 영어교육의 방향 제시를통하여 학회나 학교, SK나 한국통신등에서 효율적인 학습체계로손쉽고 재미있게 실질적인 영어실력을 키울 수 있으므로, 전국의많은 기업에서 활용을 하고 있습니다. 현재 고개님들의 학습에 도움이 되고자, 무료 샘플 CD를 배포하고 있아오니 관심 있으신 분은 아래의 배너를 클릭하여 주시기 바랍니다. 감사합니다. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5782 bytes Desc: not available URL: From piolenc at mozcom.com Mon Nov 19 20:42:22 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:42:22 +0800 Subject: The bookburning begins... Message-ID: <3BF9DF2E.7B3110E5@mozcom.com> In another life, I sell technical documents, so I monitor bookseller lists. This could interest cypherpunks. Presumably, the reports to be destroyed include everything to do with crypto. If I had the money, I would zip over to the States, visit my favorite depository library (where the librarians know me and are certain to be as disgusted by this as I am) and offer to relieve them of anything that can no longer appear on their shelves. Fill a container with "waste paper and microfilm" and send it over here. Dream on, Marc... Marc de Piolenc Philippines From mati99 at interklub.pl Tue Nov 20 04:40:26 2001 From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:40:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: remove In-Reply-To: <200111191835.SAA18097@s0231.pm0.net> Message-ID: From proff at iq.org Mon Nov 19 18:53:43 2001 From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:53:43 +1100 (EST) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <971C0336-DD57-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011120025343.8174D259C1@suburbia.net> > "In and of itself" is a very vague and intangible concept. > > --Tim May > "As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone > with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later > convinces himself." -- David Friedman Quoting Jews again, Tim? -- Julian Assange |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and proff at iq.org |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Tue Nov 20 14:17:08 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:17:08 PST Subject: You Have Been Sent A Thanksgiving Card! Message-ID: <200111202225.WAA98880@s0293.pm0.net> +>+>+> DOWNLOAD YOUR FREE E-BOOK NOW!... Work From Home, Fire Your Boss! Forget the suit and the commute and use your computer to Earn an extra $500-$5,000 per month! FULL TRAINING. Vacations, bonuses and incentives. Bilinguals also needed. Available in 49 countries World Wide and Expanding rapidly! Click Here For Your FREE E-BOOK!!! http://ads.websponsors.com/?u=32437&o=2616 +>+>+> TO CLAIM YOUR FREE CELL PHONE BOOSTER WORTH $20 and... to visit the #1 most trafficked Humor website on the Internet - Please Click here Now! http://www.twistedhumor1.com/b.asp?id=1184 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT - NOVEMBER 21, 2001 Thanksgiving Edition <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Hello All Investors, The markets are quiet this week but the action is trending downward. We will have a new company profile comming out on Sunday night the 25th! Please keep your eyes open for this FANTASTIC New Company! Enjoy your long Thanksgiving Weekend - Please drive safe! +>+>+> Please Click Here For Your FLASH Thanksgiving Greeting Card!!! http://scripts.sugar3.com/cgi-bin/magiccard.cgi?1120162632091011 Peace - Steven Schwartz and Staff mailto:support at wallstreetuniverse.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.wdj.37kh From proff at iq.org Mon Nov 19 19:24:50 2001 From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:24:50 +1100 (EST) Subject: Gold In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011119170343.007d3580@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20011120032450.8F31C25A32@suburbia.net> > Yes, but what this thread has ignored is that gold (and other > densely precious things) were valued *in and of themselves* and so > using them as money was not symbolic. You traded your goat > for a goat's worth of gold; if trust evaporated overnight > the gold is still worth something. Similarly with barrels > of oil. If you discover a lot of it under your topsoil, you > get wealth because the substance itself has utility. Gold has many industrial uses, but its value has historically commanded a higher price not primarily because of its demand for fillings or filters but for its demand as a currency, for which it is naturally suited, being easily identifyable, measurable, divisible, liquidifyable, transportable and of predictable supply. If you trade gold for goats someone else is trading goats for gold. They're almost certainly not buying fillings, but something that's useful to them as a medium of exchange. -- Julian Assange |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and proff at iq.org |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery From faustine at lokmail.net Tue Nov 20 12:14:49 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:14:49 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: <200111202014.PAA21879@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1859 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Tue Nov 20 16:04:03 2001 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:04:03 -0700 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks Message-ID: <58693d5cdc0e1ea90527302e1e42a2a6@noisebox.remailer.org> Some thoughts on digital cash. First, using anonymous cash to purchase physical goods online means giving up much of the benefit from the anonymity. If you have to give a delivery address, they obviously know who you are. It's still slightly better than using your Visa card because only the seller learns your address rather than a centralized agency that knows all of your purchases. But it's hardly worth it. Second, using digital cash for purchases in the real world (grocery stores etc) is pretty much impossible today and relatively pointless anyway since physical cash exists. There might be some slight advantages in terms of not having to carry cash, resistance to theft, etc., but from the privacy perspective, things are about as good as they are going to get in the physical world. It's only going to go downhill from here. It may not be as bad as Scott "Get Over It" McNealy claims but realistically the use of surveillance cameras and face recognition systems is going to increase. Third, this leaves the use of digital cash to purchase information goods and services online. The problem is, few companies have succeeded so far in selling information goods online, and the problems have nothing to do with the payment system or privacy issues. With self-contained products like music and software, piracy is rampant. There are some service businesses which are producing and selling information successfully, but usually they are in the B2B market where privacy is less of an issue. Fourth, the significant exception is of course pornography, and we've had debates about whether it would make sense to create a privacy-protecting electronic payment system that catered to the porn market. It's profitable, it's information, and there are significant privacy considerations for some customers. Unfortunately the greatest sensitivity to privacy comes with illegal products like child pornography. And the Reedy case has to be a significant cautionary tale. Thomas Reedy was proprietor of an age verification service which had a couple of overseas child pornographers among its customers; he ended up with life imprisonment for what was essentially a payment collection service. Any digital cash system for the porn market would therefore have to screen its clients (the sellers) very closely. It's the buyers to whom you are selling privacy, not the sellers, so this is not inconsistent with the business model. But it could be expensive. And by eliminating illegal porn you would be turning away much of your potential business, leading to a constant temptation to cross the line as Reedy did. Can we identify other markets, other applications where cash or cash-like technology can be useful? MojoNation is a good example. Their mojo is intended to be a cash substitute to optimize load balancing and data distribution. Unfortunately the MN network lacks compelling content and the economy is still crude. But the idea is sound; P2P networks which reward providers of information should flourish. The slashdot quota system is another example. Also, various "warez" sites work on an exchange basis, where people get credit for uploading files which gives them authorization to download. Imagine if all these systems could be served by a single virtual currency, where resources and work donated in one forum earned points which would entitle you to privileges in another. Eric Hughes proposed something similar back in the days of the text-based MUD and MOO online games, so that you could transfer quota from one system to another. Or consider the example recently where several people expressed interest in having someone go back to the early cypherpunk archives and select interesting threads. What if each of us had some virtual cash we could transfer to whomever did the work. The point is that there is a possibility today for an online market in informal, peer to peer style information services. There is work to be done, services to provide which remain entirely in the virtual world. If you could be rewarded for work you do online with "cash" that would allow you to request similar services from others, the monetary system can get off the ground. This might be a more promising start for a virtual currency than attempts to tie it immediately to dollars. From melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu Tue Nov 20 15:21:49 2001 From: melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Matt Elliott) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:21:49 -0600 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:00 PM -0500 11/20/01, dmolnar wrote: >Does anyone happen to know of real-world current examples like this, in >which some aggregator buys and sells a commodity on an exchange, then >turns around and offers it at a flat rate to end users? I think my electric company does this each month with my power and gas. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 20 15:49:02 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:49:02 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | Enhanced Carnivore To Crack Encryption Via Virus Message-ID: <3BFAEBEE.7B8AF8B3@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/20/2155251.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From fogstorm at mac.com Tue Nov 20 17:53:33 2001 From: fogstorm at mac.com (FogStorm) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:53:33 -0800 Subject: Carnivore To Get "Magic Lantern" Message-ID: <920AADDE-DE22-11D5-969F-0030657961FE@mac.com> http://www.msnbc.com/news/660096.asp?0si=-&cp1=1 ... MAGIC LANTERN installs so-called keylogging software on a suspect's machine that is capable of capturing keystrokes typed on a computer. By tracking exactly what a suspect types, critical encryption key information can be gathered, and then transmitted back to the FBI, according to the source, who requested anonymity. The virus can be sent to the suspect via e-mail  perhaps sent for the FBI by a trusted friend or relative. The FBI can also use common vulnerabilities to break into a suspect's computer and insert Magic Lantern, the source said. Magic Lantern is one of a series of enhancements currently being developed for the FBI's Carnivore project, the source said, under the umbrella project name of Cyber Knight. ... From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Nov 20 15:00:26 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:00:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <6197C040-DC5F-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Any system involving units of Mojo, or understanding of auction models, > etc. is hampered. And any system that has only a tiny fraction of what > Napster had at its peak is hit with the "So what?" factor. And the Fax > Effect kicks in--few users, not as many options, stagnation. Mojo Nation doesn't have to "sell" directly to consumers. In fact, as you point out, it's not realistic to expect consumers to manage their own pricing. On the other hand, this might be an opportunity for people to build services on top of Mojo Nation. Such a "middle" service could provide a consumer with a turnkey, flat fee, no hassle service, while using Mojo Nation to obtain the most efficient prics possible for resources. The difference between the flat fee and the "most efficient" price provided by Mojo becomes the profit for the middle service. I don't even know if this works in theory, however. Presumably I could set up a model to investigate the relationship between "best possible" Mojo prices and the characteristics of the network - things like how many users, how much trading, liqudity, which pricing algorithms people use, and so on. Then we could ask questions like "how many people need to be offering which kinds of services before a service built on top of Mojo can be profitable?" The ideal situation would be one in which the middle service can undercut "traditional" providers -- and still make money. Except that doesn't look like it's going to happen in the real world. You've mentioned the fact that not enough people are running Mojo clients ("thin market"/"illiquid"). It's not clear what it would take to get more people in the Mojo marketplace; even if the theory works out beyond my wildest dreams and I could somehow "prove" that Mojo will make everyone money **if only ten million people sign up tomorrow**, I suspect no one would pay attention. There are other problems as well. For one thing, who are the "traditional providers" in the previous paragraph against whom a Mojo service would compete? in markets for which resources? In the case of disk space, it seems to be the people who make and sell hard drives; both entrenched and selling physical goods which any middle service would be hard pressed to emulate perfectly. Plus, as one of the anonymous posters noted, the disk market is quite non-volatile (maybe "boring" is the right word) with a pronounced trend downward; what is the incentive to use a Mojo-based service there if the customer can just wait a week and then buy a bigger HD? So are there markets for which a "middle service" could work? I apologize for going on at length about this, but if you want Mojo to correspond at all to real money instead of being a DoS protection feature, I don't see many other ways than "middle services" to make it work on a wide scale. Then again, I may just be lacking imagination. Does anyone happen to know of real-world current examples like this, in which some aggregator buys and sells a commodity on an exchange, then turns around and offers it at a flat rate to end users? > (Hint: Faustine, especially, should read "TAZ." And "True Names." And > "Ender's Game." And the archives. And the Cyphernomicon. Get beyond the > fog of the mundane and see where the degrees of freedom of the Web will > take us.) Have you seen the SemioText(e) anthology? "TAZ" is in it, along with stuff from J.G. Ballard, the Church of the Subgenius, stories vaguely inspired by gnosticism, and other usual suspects. Reading it reminded me of reading Douglas Rushkoff's _Cyberia_ for the first time -- another book which gives new meaning to your "see where the degrees of freedom of the Web will take us." Heady stuff, all of it, and now seems to be out of fashion, but that's a tangent... -David Molnar From info at yacht-search.net Tue Nov 20 10:28:47 2001 From: info at yacht-search.net (The team @ yacht-search.net) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:28:47 +0000 Subject: A new exchange launches: Yachts & boats for sale or charter, holidays afloat and more.... Message-ID: <200111201928.LAA07537@toad.com> If you have any interest in yachting, boats, sailing or holidays afloat... Visit >> www.yacht-search.net << the new international boat & yacht charter & sales system - FREE OF CHARGE FOR ALL USERS... Free advertising or enquires using $1.5 Million USD (£1M) of technology! > CREATING NEW MARKETS WITH SEARCH & MATCH SOFTWARE FROM SEARCH PLC < (>>Brokers / owners / charterers<<) (We have been given your email address as someone who may be interested in the boating business; This email is a "one off" but if you have no interest in yachts or shipping and would like to be 100% sure that you will never receive an email from us again please simply mail unsubscribe at ship-search.com and type "remove" in the subject line - we apologize for bothering you.) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1771 bytes Desc: not available URL: From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 19:56:14 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:56:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011120075832.007cd9b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20011121035614.32598.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> > Capitalism is a natural result of free people. The ultimate argument. Like in "natural" and "unnatural" sex .... ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Tue Nov 20 20:06:34 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:06:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: in praise of gold In-Reply-To: <200111210112.UAA17052@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <20011121040634.93480.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> > Not all women are golddiggers. I happen to think any woman who marries > for money or sleeps around for gifts and dinners is worse than a whore. > As the old saw goes, at least real prostitutes are honest about what they're > doing. > > The only "abstracted value" I find really intriguing is the quality of > a man's mind. Everything else is entirely beside the point. You have no idea > how often I get hit on by so-called "attractive" men--and I'm quite proud to > say Same thing. Capable mind means ability to extract valuable stuff from society. Just another currency, more volatile than gold but also with more potential. I won't extrapolate the working girl analogy ... :-))) ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From faustine at lokmail.net Tue Nov 20 17:12:01 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:12:01 -0500 Subject: in praise of gold Message-ID: <200111210112.UAA17052@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1563 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Tue Nov 20 17:57:16 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:57:16 -0500 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <58693d5cdc0e1ea90527302e1e42a2a6@noisebox.remailer.org>; from nobody@noisebox.remailer.org on Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:04:03PM -0700 References: <58693d5cdc0e1ea90527302e1e42a2a6@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <20011120205716.B14158@cluebot.com> I don't mean to take issue with much of what Anonymous writes, but some of the examples mentioned can be taken care of adequately by existing payment systems. Using Amazon's payment system (they have two types, voluntary and pay-for-content), a webmaster can charge as low as $1, I believe, for content, and Paypal is another option. Naturally, they don't do micropayments, and they don't offer the type of anonymity that other systems do, but the early-cypherpunk-archive- editing project, for instance, wouldn't require anon payments in ha'pennies either. -Declan On Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:04:03PM -0700, Anonymous wrote: > Imagine if all these systems could be served by a single virtual currency, > where resources and work donated in one forum earned points which would > entitle you to privileges in another. Eric Hughes proposed something > similar back in the days of the text-based MUD and MOO online games, so > that you could transfer quota from one system to another. Or consider the > example recently where several people expressed interest in having someone > go back to the early cypherpunk archives and select interesting threads. > What if each of us had some virtual cash we could transfer to whomever > did the work. > > The point is that there is a possibility today for an online market in > informal, peer to peer style information services. There is work to be > done, services to provide which remain entirely in the virtual world. > If you could be rewarded for work you do online with "cash" that would > allow you to request similar services from others, the monetary system > can get off the ground. This might be a more promising start for a > virtual currency than attempts to tie it immediately to dollars. From adam at cypherspace.org Tue Nov 20 13:07:19 2001 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:07:19 +0000 Subject: ecoin.net: anonymous payments today? In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@noisebox.remailer.org on Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:14:15AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20011120210719.A7825481@exeter.ac.uk> Are you sure it's using blind coins? http://www.ecoin.net/help/operation.htm > As far as the anonymity is concerned, token provides an insulation > of customer's identity from the purchase. However, at this point, > the linkage between the customer and the tokens is forced because we > feel traceability is more important than anonymity in this beginning > phase of our operation. Thus the customer is NOT anonymous to the > broker because the server traces the connection between the customer > and the token at download time. This connection can be disabled (in > the future), but then the traceability is lost. If there is any > dispute about one transaction, lack of traceability will be a > problem. Adam On Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:14:15AM -0700, Anonymous wrote: > > Back in 1999, Steve Lihn posted to cypherpunks and some other mailing > lists about his new online payment system, ecoin.net. He intended to > work towards a blind coin system based on David Wagner's alternative to > Chaum blinding, as implemented by Ben Laurie in the lucre library. From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 20 13:34:42 2001 From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: 20 Nov 2001 21:34:42 GMT Subject: "quitting havenco", not quite! References: Message-ID: <9tei9i$h9c$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> In article , Trei, Peter wrote: >(now, when is the HavenCo remailer going online? :-) It's been up for a while. http://remailer.havenco.com/ - Ian From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net Tue Nov 20 19:40:12 2001 From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:40:12 -0600 Subject: Gold References: <20011120032450.8F31C25A32@suburbia.net> Message-ID: <00ad01c1723e$3a017f40$0100a8c0@mshome.net> The MAIN reason (and I agree that it's work-ability is a good secondary reason, and I like the comment about cavemen finding it 'cause its shiny) gold is used as a medium of exchange is because it is SCARCE. If a modern day alchemist figured out how to easily turn lead into gold, it would become worthless (well it might still be valuable when it was made into art objects, like clay is). All of gold's "romance" arises from this scarcity. I always liked the sub-plot in Scott Adams "Hitchhiker's Guide" books where the accounts, middle managers, and "telephone sanitizers" that were sent to earth to "prepare" for future inhabitation decided to use tree leaves for currency, then set about to burn down all the trees "in order to control the money supply". -Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julian Assange" To: Cc: "Sampo Syreeni" ; Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 9:24 PM Subject: Gold > > Yes, but what this thread has ignored is that gold (and other > > densely precious things) were valued *in and of themselves* and so > > using them as money was not symbolic. You traded your goat > > for a goat's worth of gold; if trust evaporated overnight > > the gold is still worth something. Similarly with barrels > > of oil. If you discover a lot of it under your topsoil, you > > get wealth because the substance itself has utility. > > Gold has many industrial uses, but its value has historically > commanded a higher price not primarily because of its demand for > fillings or filters but for its demand as a currency, for which it > is naturally suited, being easily identifyable, measurable, divisible, > liquidifyable, transportable and of predictable supply. > > If you trade gold for goats someone else is trading goats for gold. > They're almost certainly not buying fillings, but something that's > useful to them as a medium of exchange. > > -- > Julian Assange |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people > |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and > proff at iq.org |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless > proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 20 20:29:31 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:29:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't this a description of Hawala? On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, dmolnar wrote: > On 21 Nov 2001, Anonymous wrote: > > > Supposing you and others were willing to pay Nomen a modest sum for this > > service, how could you do so using Paypal or Amazon, and allow him to > > retain his anonymity? > > On the off chance that this isn't rhetorical, because at least one way of > doing this seems straightforward... > > Some guy with a true name good enough to sign up for PayPal gets an > account, publishes a public key, and acts as a human "cash remailer." > Well, several people do, actually, and then we run a "payment MIX." Some > anonymous poster brought up the idea about a year ago IIRC and attributed > it to Ron Rivest. It sparked a short discussion which went into questions > of whether such an operation might run afoul of money laundering laws and > then sort of petered out. Or maybe I just stopped reading. > > To spell it out, Nomen offers to do the service and picks an incoming > payment MIX plus a chain of MIXes. (N.B.: will use MIX to refer to a > member of the chain). Publishes a "payment reply block" which has the > incoming payment MIX PayPal address in clear, plus a block encrypted with > the payment MIX's public key. The encrypted portion has the PayPal address > of the next MIX in the chain, plus an encrypted portion for that next MIX. > Eventually it decrypts to reveal Nomen's real PayPal account info. > Assuming everyone plays along, the money flows down the chain and ends up > in Nomen's PayPal account. I expect that's not such a great assumption > when dealing with "real" money. > > You still have the BlackNet problem, though - Nomen1 and Nomen2 can both > publish public payment blocks. Which one do you pay? In this particular > case, though, you can address that (and the fair exchange problem) by > doing what Stephen King did -- Nomen does a little bit of the work first > for free, then continues iff enough people ante up for more. You use the > payment block signed by the same key which signed the current work. > > Now that I think about it, you could probably take this down the route > Eric Hughes suggested in his "Universal Piracy Network" presentation at > DEF CON IV. That is, people pay Nomen and in return Nomen sends them the > new work first; they get 0-day access to the warezzz. Hughes had something > about "completion bonds" in his presentation as well, but I don't remember > at all what the particulars were, just that there was a rough analogy to > the movie industry. Anyone remember more details? > > I have half a mind to sign up for PayPal just to try this. (Assuming I > won't be thrown in jail for money laundering, anyway). Anyone with me? > > Nomen? :) > > Although I feel compelled to point out that with only one MIX, it's not > going to be particularly secure for Nomen. Not to mention with no > provision for detecting MIXes who shave off the payment or eat it > entirely, this might just be me trying to make a few quick $$$. Of course > if this were large-scale, you could use reputations -- a MIX which eats > the entire $$$ now loses out on the possibility of shaving small fractions > of $$$ later. > > Also, with provision for detecting MIXes who give good payments, there's > nothing to stop Nomen from alleging that I'm screwing him and ruining my > reputation. As a potential MIX, that bothers me. So there are issues here. > > > > > An alternative solution is barter. Nomen could agree to search certain > > years of archives, or certain topics, in exchange for other people working > > on other parts of the project, for example. Information barter can be > > performed while retaining anonymity. Maybe systems to facilitate barter > > could be developed if anonymous cash remains out of reach. > > right, like the barter a Nomen is trying to do with Marc right now...and > which doesn't seem to be working too well so far. Although in that case it > seems like the problem was just that this Nomen set up the terms of the > barter without bothering to ask if the other party actually wanted to > trade. That's like this guy at Coney Island I met a few months back. > > "You wanna throw a dart?? Here! Here! Free!" > > "Now you owe me five dollar!" > > (I paid. Yes, I'm a wuss. I got a cute fan out of it. I'm never doing > business like that at Coney Island ever again.) > > -David > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From newsletters at the-financial-news.org Tue Nov 20 13:32:30 2001 From: newsletters at the-financial-news.org (The Financial News) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:32:30 +0100 Subject: Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Co-investment Program Message-ID: The Financial News, November 2001 Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Co-investment Program "...Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and the necessary support for the production in series of Mini-plants in mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is to say, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production." More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for Construction Framework, Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Façades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares, Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups, Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging, Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material, Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc. Science Network has started a process of Co-investment for the installation of small Assembly plants to manufacture in series the Mini-plants of portable production on the site, region or country where they may be required. One of the most relevant features is the fact that these plants will be connected to the World Trade System (WTS) with access to more than 50 million raw materials, products and services and automatic transactions for world trade. Because of financial reasons, involving cost and social impact, the right thing to do is to set up assembly plants in the same countries and regions, using local resources (labor, some equipment, etc.) For more information: Mini-plants in mobile containers By Steven P. Leibacher, The Financial News, Editor ------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you received this in error or would like to be removed from our list, please return us indicating: remove or un-subscribe in 'subject' field, Thanks. Editor © 2001 The Financial News. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2979 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at dizum.com Tue Nov 20 13:40:23 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:40:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: The bookburning begins... Message-ID: <335fed62cfc9f39c57112bb33f391afe@dizum.com> Well, if google controls usenet history, why wouldn't a violence monopoly control logs and the history of the lands it ... controls ? (for all practical purposes the government is a corporation with a very effective PR department and pesuasive means, which it uses to successfuly convince customers that it works for them, that it is even controlled by them. And as we know, branding ... er patriotism ... works) Back to archives. One of the solutions was described in Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451: memorize the stuff. It's much easier with computers these days. Download and backup the information YOU deem valuable. It's your fucking choice, don't expect others to do it. It is trivially easy, maybe as easy as whining about bookburning. Look at JYA - all he does is memorize, memorize. Archiving is a valuable service. The Unsolved Problem The most serious problem is getting out of the reach ("juristiction") of a particular Violence, Inc. franchise. Not just storage-wise, but access-wise. Even if I rent a server in Tripoli, the access to it goes through wires controlled by my local ViolCo. It is not filtering out Tripoli now, but I have no doubt that it will should the need arise. You can hide bits by encryption, but you (still) can't hide wires. unrelated - did you notice that "for the children" meme is almost gone and replaced with "against the terrorism" ? From ryan at havenco.com Tue Nov 20 14:48:34 2001 From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:48:34 +0000 Subject: "quitting havenco", not quite! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011120224834.B13959@atreides.havenco.com> > Ryan and the other HavenCo folks deserve *massive* kudos for this. > (now, when is the HavenCo remailer going online? :-) The remailer has been up since 16 September 2001, and was announced to this list among others. http://remailer.havenco.com/ Next thing coming is "mail.havenco.com" with: * [SSL] IMAP/POP3/HTTP/SMTP with domain hosting for customers (point your domain MX at us, we'll resell mail accounts using your domain name and give you a percentage) * PGP Keyserver (this is not my favorite software..) * PGP auto-keysigner which does "proof of control of email address" ID signing; KDC for HAVENCO.COM, maybe x509 stuff. Would be good for gale keys as well. * Local mail archives (SSL, same URL as mail.havenco.com to provide cover traffic), googleified. * Ideally some linkage to instant messaging as well -- SMS to email or email to SMS gatewaying, various IMs, whatever. I have this for myself, but it's hard to figure out how to scale. * Mailing list creation and management * Some decent linking to remailer network; store/forward messaging over remailers, links to reply-block style remailers. Ease of use is more important for most people, so an anonymously-purchased imap mailbox is probably good enough in most cases. Probably start just by keeping remailer.havenco.com and mail.havenco.com on the same subnet with postfix-tls between the two. * *maybe* links to some kind of weblog/blog system (I'd actually like to write an RFC on how to share "friends" functionality" between these systems; it's a semi-complex database issue to do efficiently.) although this is pretty far from mail. * also, continue adding mirrors of various software Independently of havenco (well, using a purchased box): * Someone is setting up a file-storage thing with web interface on Sealand; might be designed to avoid public-content-hosting, just private, not sure. Followed by: (I have them for myself now, not commercial-grade yet) * Anonymizing proxy on Sealand, cover general traffic as well as havenco-destination traffic. Free and no ads to havenco-destination sites; free and ads and rate-limiting to elsewhere, or subscription. * VPN services to Sealand (PPP over SSH, some other tools) Followed by: (unlikely to even break-even) * Sourceforge-type offshore software development system (basic, will roll out features over time). Will charge for resources, but then people can sponsor individual projects, and I'll sponsor ones which are either technically or socially interesting. cvs, a build and test farm, www and ftp, links to the mail system, trouble ticketing, maybe some links to make it easy to develop and deploy code from the same interface (if it's a simple "web service" or something like that) The main projects which would benefit are "underground" things like dvd players with decss built in (Ogle), or various p2p projects, or general circumvention technology, or maybe crypto. Sourceforge does what it does quite well, so for general-purpose code, it's probably the best place to host. I hope to have something as good as sourceforge by summer 2002. The mail stuff is mostly done and just in testing, and working out support/payment issues, so it should be ready in December. -- Ryan Lackey ryan at havenco.com CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd. the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Tue Nov 20 22:54:02 2001 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:54:02 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: References: <58693d5cdc0e1ea90527302e1e42a2a6@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011120224049.04cba980@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 11:45 PM 11/20/2001 -0500, dmolnar wrote: > > distribution. Unfortunately the MN network lacks compelling content > >Right - it's for optimizing load balancing and data distribution. Roughly >stated, it seems to me to be a DoS prevention mechanism. It's not at all >clear that Mojo will ever be meaningfully convertible to "real" money, at >least not to me. but then again, I'm often unclear. Very early in its lifetime, the Autonomous Zones/Mojo Nation people said that maybe Mojo would someday be exchangable with real cash, though the assumption was that during the early stages of software development, people were playing with worthless currency for proof-of-concept, and that at some point the old Mojo would be useless or disabled, and people would start using New Mojo instead, where New Mojo might have real value. Since then (that description is meant to be of the state of the Mojo Nation in October 2000 or so), they've abandoned plans for making Mojo valuable and/or convertible to other currencies, and it is only intended as a resource allocation tool and/or DoS prevention mechanism. As far as I know - I stopped paying close attention to them when they shifted focus from a currency-based publishing system to a load-balanced content delivery system - they also give out all the Mojo you care to ask for, free, 10 million Mojos at a time - so it seems very unlikely that the current tokens will ever be convertible to real value, given that sort of inflationary history. And that problem seems to be at the center of Nomen Nescio's sotto voce suggestion that some unnamed cypherpunks work up a currency which can be used to "pay" people for providing information which is of value - I get the impression that s/he is imagining some magic fairy would mint up piles of the currency, and assign it equally to every subscriber, who would then be empowered to pay it to the content providers they liked best. That's very warm and fuzzy and hippy-like, but if these tokens are handed out for free, then what, exactly, is their value? I think the Extropians did something like that, which ended in some sort of fiasco which some cypherpunks were involved in, though I don't know the details and was never a participant in that list/social circle. -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Tue Nov 20 22:58:02 2001 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:58:02 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011120225442.037af610@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 02:57 AM 11/21/2001 +0000, Anonymous wrote: >Supposing you and others were willing to pay Nomen a modest sum for this >service, how could you do so using Paypal or Amazon, and allow him to >retain his anonymity? List members following this thread might find the old thread re "The DES Analytic Crack Project" (a representative message is available at , and a project webpage at ) of interest - it describes a Cypherpunk-initiated anonymous cryptanalytic research effort, funded by donors unaware of the researcher's "true name" or address. Perhaps the participant(s) or researcher(s) would be inclined to describe the procedures used to protect privacy and facilitate payment. -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Nov 20 20:14:56 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:14:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 21 Nov 2001, Anonymous wrote: > Supposing you and others were willing to pay Nomen a modest sum for this > service, how could you do so using Paypal or Amazon, and allow him to > retain his anonymity? On the off chance that this isn't rhetorical, because at least one way of doing this seems straightforward... Some guy with a true name good enough to sign up for PayPal gets an account, publishes a public key, and acts as a human "cash remailer." Well, several people do, actually, and then we run a "payment MIX." Some anonymous poster brought up the idea about a year ago IIRC and attributed it to Ron Rivest. It sparked a short discussion which went into questions of whether such an operation might run afoul of money laundering laws and then sort of petered out. Or maybe I just stopped reading. To spell it out, Nomen offers to do the service and picks an incoming payment MIX plus a chain of MIXes. (N.B.: will use MIX to refer to a member of the chain). Publishes a "payment reply block" which has the incoming payment MIX PayPal address in clear, plus a block encrypted with the payment MIX's public key. The encrypted portion has the PayPal address of the next MIX in the chain, plus an encrypted portion for that next MIX. Eventually it decrypts to reveal Nomen's real PayPal account info. Assuming everyone plays along, the money flows down the chain and ends up in Nomen's PayPal account. I expect that's not such a great assumption when dealing with "real" money. You still have the BlackNet problem, though - Nomen1 and Nomen2 can both publish public payment blocks. Which one do you pay? In this particular case, though, you can address that (and the fair exchange problem) by doing what Stephen King did -- Nomen does a little bit of the work first for free, then continues iff enough people ante up for more. You use the payment block signed by the same key which signed the current work. Now that I think about it, you could probably take this down the route Eric Hughes suggested in his "Universal Piracy Network" presentation at DEF CON IV. That is, people pay Nomen and in return Nomen sends them the new work first; they get 0-day access to the warezzz. Hughes had something about "completion bonds" in his presentation as well, but I don't remember at all what the particulars were, just that there was a rough analogy to the movie industry. Anyone remember more details? I have half a mind to sign up for PayPal just to try this. (Assuming I won't be thrown in jail for money laundering, anyway). Anyone with me? Nomen? :) Although I feel compelled to point out that with only one MIX, it's not going to be particularly secure for Nomen. Not to mention with no provision for detecting MIXes who shave off the payment or eat it entirely, this might just be me trying to make a few quick $$$. Of course if this were large-scale, you could use reputations -- a MIX which eats the entire $$$ now loses out on the possibility of shaving small fractions of $$$ later. Also, with provision for detecting MIXes who give good payments, there's nothing to stop Nomen from alleging that I'm screwing him and ruining my reputation. As a potential MIX, that bothers me. So there are issues here. > > An alternative solution is barter. Nomen could agree to search certain > years of archives, or certain topics, in exchange for other people working > on other parts of the project, for example. Information barter can be > performed while retaining anonymity. Maybe systems to facilitate barter > could be developed if anonymous cash remains out of reach. right, like the barter a Nomen is trying to do with Marc right now...and which doesn't seem to be working too well so far. Although in that case it seems like the problem was just that this Nomen set up the terms of the barter without bothering to ask if the other party actually wanted to trade. That's like this guy at Coney Island I met a few months back. "You wanna throw a dart?? Here! Here! Free!" "Now you owe me five dollar!" (I paid. Yes, I'm a wuss. I got a cute fan out of it. I'm never doing business like that at Coney Island ever again.) -David From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Nov 20 20:45:57 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:45:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <58693d5cdc0e1ea90527302e1e42a2a6@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Anonymous wrote: > than using your Visa card because only the seller learns your address > rather than a centralized agency that knows all of your purchases. > But it's hardly worth it. A friend of mine was considering a business plan for physical remailer+ "infomediary" for a class project a year or two ago. Precisely to get around this problem. Sell learns the remailer's address. More than a few remailers and you can chain them, etc. etc. He was thinking about it in terms of the single proxy model, but if the idea ever took off enough to have multiple competitors, you could try a MIX-net. I don't think I ever pointed this out to him. I'll have to ask him whatever came of the project. > technology can be useful? MojoNation is a good example. Their mojo is > intended to be a cash substitute to optimize load balancing and data > distribution. Unfortunately the MN network lacks compelling content Right - it's for optimizing load balancing and data distribution. Roughly stated, it seems to me to be a DoS prevention mechanism. It's not at all clear that Mojo will ever be meaningfully convertible to "real" money, at least not to me. but then again, I'm often unclear. > and the economy is still crude. But the idea is sound; P2P networks > which reward providers of information should flourish. The slashdot > quota system is another example. Also, various "warez" sites work on > an exchange basis, where people get credit for uploading files which > gives them authorization to download. and that in turn is a holdover from the old BBS days. BBSes seem special in that the resources available are so *drastically* limited. A BBS with one phone line could serve one user at a time. When one person is on, nobody else has a shot. So a BBS without upload/download ratios runs the risk of collapsing pretty quick under the weight of leeches and m0es. When I ran a BBS, I ended up removing the files section altogether; I thought messages were the most important part (and in any case, didn't have a large enough HD to hold files...plus didn't want to deal with the tension bewteen running a "free speech" BBS and screening for pirate warez so as to not get arrested.) I think this accounted in part for the obsession with "access level" which seemed common to many BBS users. (On the other hand, I also gave everyone a 90 minute time quota; way more than most people ever used. So perhaps this "quotas or die" doesn't hold true universally. Anyone else have anecdotal evidence from BBSing? ) Anyway, the point is that in such a resource-limited environment, quotas and ratios are basic rationing tools. Use them or die(mostly). When you move to an environment which has more resources, things seem to change. You can get away for longer with less in the way of resource control. So the principle that "networks which reward providers of information should flourish" may be tempered by less which selects for those networks over others. another question -- is Slashdot popular because of its moderation system? > If you could be rewarded for work you do online with "cash" that would > allow you to request similar services from others, the monetary system > can get off the ground. This might be a more promising start for a > virtual currency than attempts to tie it immediately to dollars. OK, I should *know* this, but -- what about "flooz" and "beenz" ? weren't they something along these lines before they folded? -David From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Nov 20 20:46:42 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:46:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > > Isn't this a description of Hawala? Maybe. I regret I'm not familiar with Hawala. I'll go google it. -David From mean-green at hushmail.com Wed Nov 21 00:08:53 2001 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:08:53 -0800 Subject: Carnivore To Get "Magic Lantern" Message-ID: <200111210808.fAL88rJ78917@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 05:53 PM 11/20/2001 -0800, FogStorm wrote: http://www.msnbc.com/news/660096.asp?0si=-&cp1=1 ... MAGIC LANTERN installs so-called keylogging software on a suspect's machine that is capable of capturing keystrokes typed on a computer. By tracking exactly what a suspect types, critical encryption key information can be gathered, and then transmitted back to the FBI, according to the source, who requested anonymity. The virus can be sent to the suspect via e-mail perhaps sent for the FBI by a trusted friend or relative. The FBI can also use common vulnerabilities to break into a suspect's computer and insert Magic Lantern, the source said. Magic Lantern is one of a series of enhancements currently being developed for the FBI's Carnivore project, the source said, under the umbrella project name of Cyber Knight. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Possible countermeasures: 1. Air gap - run your pgp client from a machine which is never connected to the net 2. Add ID token (e.g., Dallas Semi iButton) support to gpg From declan at well.com Tue Nov 20 21:12:09 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:12:09 -0500 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: ; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:45:57PM -0500 References: <58693d5cdc0e1ea90527302e1e42a2a6@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <20011121001208.A25344@cluebot.com> On Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:45:57PM -0500, dmolnar wrote: > BBSes seem special in that the resources available are so *drastically* > limited. A BBS with one phone line could serve one user at a time. When > one person is on, nobody else has a shot. So a BBS without upload/download > ratios runs the risk of collapsing pretty quick under the weight of [...] > (On the other hand, I also gave everyone a 90 minute time quota; way more > than most people ever used. So perhaps this "quotas or die" doesn't hold > true universally. Anyone else have anecdotal evidence from BBSing? ) Hmm. In the 1980s, I ran a BBS using GBBS on an Apple IIe and later an Apple IIgs with first a Sider ][ 20 MB and then some SCSI 40 MB HDs. GBBS just supported one user at a time, of course (I recall the DiversiDial or somesuch software on the Apple II allowed as many users as you had Super Serial cards or AppleCats), so I had the leech problem. Another way around it was to limit access to the download area to pre-approved users or folks who came with recommendations or folks, as you say, who contributed something first. Some BBSs took this to a bit of an extreme and asked pretty pointed questions, like "what are your latest/best warez?" before assigning an account. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Nov 20 21:18:41 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:18:41 -0500 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@hyperreal.pl on Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:57:23AM -0000 References: Message-ID: <20011121001841.B25344@cluebot.com> On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:57:23AM -0000, Anonymous wrote: > Supposing you and others were willing to pay Nomen a modest sum for this > service, how could you do so using Paypal or Amazon, and allow him to > retain his anonymity? Ah, but I never said I'd pay for it -- I said it might be a better use Nomen's time than pointless flaming or somesuch. But going with your hypothetical, Nomen could find a trusted party with sufficient reputation capital and allow them to run the Amazon service for him/her in exchange for a small fee. Amazon requires a credit card number, billing address, and checking account number for a "merchant account." Heck, I'd do it, for a sufficient expected fee, assuming legal content, and I suspect other folks would too, for different definitions of "expected fee." How I would give a check or money order to Nomen is another problem. Perhaps he/she would like a copy of something I could download for a fee, encrypt, and send via a remailer or place in a Usenet newsgroup? Etc. I never claimed that Amazon/Paypal are sufficient for all cypherpunkly purposes; that is trivially untrue. But they may be sufficient for some tasks. -Declan From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Nov 20 22:00:51 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:00:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, dmolnar wrote: > > Isn't this a description of Hawala? > > Maybe. I regret I'm not familiar with Hawala. I'll go google it. Gee, it's even in the cypherpunks archives. Sorry, everyone. Yes, as described sure sounds similar. The point of doing it over PayPal would just be to make it easy for people on this list to pay Nomen. Even though hawala works in the real world, I'm not so sure we could just start it and expect it to work here. One thing that came to mind while reading about it -- does it buy us anything in a MIX-net to separate control messages from payload messages? This came to mind because one of the descriptions of the hawala network seemed to imply that payment would come in from one source and then the name of the recipient would come in from another. The analogy in a MIX-net for e-mail would be having a message delivered to a MIX, and then later forwarding instructions for that message delivered by someone else. (said instructions identifying message by hash or something). Another way to look at this is putting delay in the hands of the client. Not clear to me that it helps; maybe make an adversary think a certain node is the final destination? I can't think of a MIX design off the top of my head which does this. Anyone else? something like this discussed way back when? -David From Tell.Us at newsletter.tide.com Tue Nov 20 22:33:54 2001 From: Tell.Us at newsletter.tide.com (Tide Neighbor to Neighbor) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:33:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Save $3.00 on Holiday Gift Bundles! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 26048 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 20 23:02:34 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:02:34 -0500 Subject: The Crypto-Financial Paradox In-Reply-To: <20011120205716.B14158@cluebot.com> References: <58693d5cdc0e1ea90527302e1e42a2a6@noisebox.remailer.org> <20011120205716.B14158@cluebot.com> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 10502 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at hyperreal.pl Tue Nov 20 18:57:23 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 21 Nov 2001 02:57:23 -0000 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks Message-ID: Declan McCullagh writes: > I don't mean to take issue with much of what Anonymous writes, but > some of the examples mentioned can be taken care of adequately by > existing payment systems. > > Using Amazon's payment system (they have two types, voluntary and > pay-for-content), a webmaster can charge as low as $1, I believe, for > content, and Paypal is another option. > > Naturally, they don't do micropayments, and they don't offer the type > of anonymity that other systems do, but the early-cypherpunk-archive- > editing project, for instance, wouldn't require anon payments in > ha'pennies either. On November 13, you wrote to anon poster Nomen Nescio: > (If you really wanted to do something that might be useful, you'd > pick the more interesting threads from the dawn of the list, insert > them into a good search utility, and make that available for searching > and .tar.gz downloading.') Supposing you and others were willing to pay Nomen a modest sum for this service, how could you do so using Paypal or Amazon, and allow him to retain his anonymity? An alternative solution is barter. Nomen could agree to search certain years of archives, or certain topics, in exchange for other people working on other parts of the project, for example. Information barter can be performed while retaining anonymity. Maybe systems to facilitate barter could be developed if anonymous cash remains out of reach. From nobody at dizum.com Tue Nov 20 18:40:35 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 03:40:35 +0100 (CET) Subject: The bookburning begins... Message-ID: Marc de Piolenc writes: > Presumably, the reports to be destroyed include everything to do with > crypto. > ... > Not only is the government removing much material from its websites it > is also asking depository libraries (which are sent government reports > free) to remove and destroy many government reports--because of the > recent terrorist incidents. Yet another cypherpunk idiocy, the idea that the government is scurrying about trying to get information on cryptography out of libraries. A good example of the narrow focus and lack of reasoning on the part of cypherpunks. The government is trying to make it harder to get sensitive information related to infrastructure vulnerabilities. It has no interest in suppressing information on a widely used technology like crypto. You might as well predict that they will pull all the books about the internet off library shelves in order to try to improve network security. And by the way, Marc de Piolenc, what happened to your assignment about using Chaumian credentials to improve air travel security? You were given the favor of pointers to Chaum's papers; you were expected to provide something back in return, quid pro quo. Why don't you work on that instead of inflicting unfounded opinions on the group? From advertising at activexamerica.com Wed Nov 21 04:35:42 2001 From: advertising at activexamerica.com (advertising at activexamerica.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 4:35:42 PM -0000 Subject: Advertising On Your Site Message-ID: <200111212136.PAA12041@oasis.siteprotect.com> Please direct to owner of http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1997/11/msg01955.html Greetings, I have not heard back from you. I sent you an email on November 14th and have received no response. I am interested in advertising on your site. Below you'll see that I've attached my original email explaining how I think we can both benefit from doing business together. 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Address Removal Instructions This advertisement provides all recipients with a no-cost method to permanently remove their e-mail address from future mailings. To permanently remove your address click here to send your request. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8366 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 21 05:06:43 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 07:06:43 -0600 Subject: The Village Voice: Features: Assault on Liberty: Abandoning the Constitution to Military Tribunals by Nat Hentoff Message-ID: <3BFBA6E3.8CFB6997@ssz.com> http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0147/hentoff.php -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mv at cdc.gov Wed Nov 21 07:46:54 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 07:46:54 -0800 Subject: The bookburning begins... Message-ID: <3BFBCC6E.BD4FAFF0@cdc.gov> At 10:40 PM 11/20/01 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: > >unrelated - did you notice that "for the children" meme is almost gone and replaced with "against the terrorism" ? Children can be terrorists. Its the asymmetry, again. "Terrorists are the only true avant-garde artists because they're the only ones who are still capable of really surprising people." ---Laurie Anderson "Never underestimate the stupidity of some of the people we have to deal with," William A. Reinsch, Under Secretary of Commerce for the Bureau of Export Administration, said while being grilled about whether terrorists and criminals would be naove enough to use the technology being pushed by the Administration. "Terrorism: deadly violence against humans and other living things, usually conducted by government against its own people." -- Edward Abbey From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 21 07:55:50 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 07:55:50 -0800 Subject: in praise of gold In-Reply-To: <200111210112.UAA17052@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011121075550.007f6bb0@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:12 PM 11/20/01 -0500, Faustine wrote: >David wrote: >George wrote: > >>>5) Gold makes women sleep with you. I don't know why they >>>like it, but they do. >>They sleep with you because of your large cattle herd only they >>have accepted abstracted value and settle for gold or stocks... > > >Not all women are golddiggers. I happen to think any woman who marries .. >The only "abstracted value" I find really intriguing is the quality of... You should interpret my statement in the context of George's statement not your personal life. Also regardless of your personal tastes, you should be familiar with sociobiology, Desmond Morris, etc. Peacock feathers, mammaries on humans, antlers, etc. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 21 08:18:07 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 08:18:07 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <20011121035614.32598.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20011120075832.007cd9b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011121081807.007cfeb0@pop.sprynet.com> At 07:56 PM 11/20/01 -0800, Morlock Elloi wrote: >> Capitalism is a natural result of free people. > >The ultimate argument. Like in "natural" and "unnatural" sex .... Hardly dogma; look at history. Unhindered by social engineers/violence monopolists, people used tools (capital) to increase productivity. This had much more dramatic effects during the industrial period than the preceeding agricultural one, though nowadays agri shows high productivity thanks to some sophisticated tools, too. Unhindered, people use their forebrains and invest in the future. The investment might be themselves acquiring a skill, a tool, or investing in others' activities. The payoff structure of the universe encourages this. If you encourage others to get educated, you are a capitalist. If you discourage others from investing in themselves or others, don't try to acquire the right skill or tool to meet your goals, I'd say you weren't a capitalist. You'll have a hard time doing anything, hard to till a field without a plough. From amf909uc1 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 21 07:33:37 2001 From: amf909uc1 at yahoo.com (Mike Gregory) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:33:37 -0600 Subject: OFFICIAL BAD BUSINESS REPORT Message-ID: <200111211516.HAA22004@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11832 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 21 06:46:57 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:46:57 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: > David Honig[SMTP:honig at sprynet.com] wrote: > So Jim suppose we just invented metals. You go debate its > social consequences, I've got some forging to do. > The overloading of the word 'forging' (in the context of this list's nominal topic) is just too delicious an irony to let pass unnoticed... Peter Trei From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 21 10:16:19 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:16:19 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <58693d5cdc0e1ea90527302e1e42a2a6@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011121085211.04b030e0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 05:04 PM 11/20/2001 -0700, Anonymous wrote: >Some thoughts on digital cash. > >First, using anonymous cash to purchase physical goods online means giving >up much of the benefit from the anonymity. If you have to give a delivery >address, they obviously know who you are. It's still slightly better >than using your Visa card because only the seller learns your address >rather than a centralized agency that knows all of your purchases. >But it's hardly worth it. Coin (or better yet eGold) operated rental, non-USPS, parcel delivery locker business. >Second, using digital cash for purchases in the real world (grocery stores >etc) is pretty much impossible today and relatively pointless anyway since >physical cash exists. There might be some slight advantages in terms of >not having to carry cash, resistance to theft, etc., but from the privacy >perspective, things are about as good as they are going to get in the >physical world. It's only going to go downhill from here. It may not >be as bad as Scott "Get Over It" McNealy claims but realistically the use >of surveillance cameras and face recognition systems is going to increase. ATMs dispensing currency for ecash >Fourth, the significant exception is of course pornography, and >we've had debates about whether it would make sense to create a >privacy-protecting electronic payment system that catered to the porn >market. It's profitable, it's information, and there are significant >privacy considerations for some customers. > >Unfortunately the greatest sensitivity to privacy comes with illegal >products like child pornography. And the Reedy case has to be a >significant cautionary tale. Thomas Reedy was proprietor of an age >verification service which had a couple of overseas child pornographers >among its customers; he ended up with life imprisonment for what was >essentially a payment collection service. Any digital cash system >for the porn market would therefore have to screen its clients (the >sellers) very closely. It's the buyers to whom you are selling privacy, >not the sellers, so this is not inconsistent with the business model. >But it could be expensive. And by eliminating illegal porn you would >be turning away much of your potential business, leading to a constant >temptation to cross the line as Reedy did. Offshore operation from less prudish countries. >Can we identify other markets, other applications where cash or cash-like >technology can be useful? MojoNation is a good example. Their mojo is >intended to be a cash substitute to optimize load balancing and data >distribution. Unfortunately the MN network lacks compelling content >and the economy is still crude. use Automated publication from file names and meta-data. Removal of limitations of file size enabling publication of high quality video content. >Imagine if all these systems could be served by a single virtual currency, >where resources and work donated in one forum earned points which would >entitle you to privileges in another. Eric Hughes proposed something >similar back in the days of the text-based MUD and MOO online games, so >that you could transfer quota from one system to another. Or consider the >example recently where several people expressed interest in having someone >go back to the early cypherpunk archives and select interesting threads. >What if each of us had some virtual cash we could transfer to whomever >did the work. eGold is already available. >The point is that there is a possibility today for an online market in >informal, peer to peer style information services. There is work to be >done, services to provide which remain entirely in the virtual world. >If you could be rewarded for work you do online with "cash" that would >allow you to request similar services from others, the monetary system >can get off the ground. This might be a more promising start for a >virtual currency than attempts to tie it immediately to dollars. eGold has shown a substantial and profitable, though still not mainstream market, exists for an unregulated electronic currency. A similar system tied to dollars, pounds or marks, is greatly desired. steve From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Nov 21 01:51:12 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:51:12 +0100 (MET) Subject: Carnivore To Get "Magic Lantern" In-Reply-To: <200111210808.fAL88rJ78917@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 mean-green at hushmail.com wrote: > 2. Add ID token (e.g., Dallas Semi iButton) support to gpg Doesn't suffice, if you see/encrypt clear on a compromised machine. Air gap or a dedicated hardened crypto machine (embedded with a private eye type of display connected to the main machine via a simple, provably secure protocol). Airgap (MOD sneakernet) is the easiest solution so far. But we've been through this before. From piolenc at mozcom.com Tue Nov 20 19:02:32 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:02:32 +0800 Subject: Liberating the Phillipine Islands References: <8DAE4AC4-DDD5-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BFB1948.964205FB@mozcom.com> Tim May wrote: > "We are prepared to bomb Manila in order to root out terrorism," he > might as well have said. The capital is a long way from the nasties; they're closer to my neighborhood (Mindanao). > The PI chick prez is promising more cooperation in the war on terrorism, > so look for more crackdowns on civil liberties in the PI. There's no evidence of ANY crackdown on civil liberties here. The fight against terrorism here is directed at the terrorists, who unfortunately do exist. When there was agitation in Metro Manila a few months ago, Gloria did declare a State of Rebellion, but it applied only to the capital and was revoked as soon as the police had a handle on the rioting, even before things calmed down completely. There is a high degree of sensitivity here, dating to the Marcos régime, to any hint of martial law, and politicians are very reluctant to even consider it. The kind of Fabian loss of liberty taking place in the States is not really possible here, because the mechanism for enforcing the "death of a thousand cuts" does not exist - it's all or nothing. So far, it's nothing. We had a visit from some PACOM terrorism experts recently, and I think there will be some concrete help forthcoming against the Abu Sayyaf, which is the local al-Quaeda franchise and a very nasty (though fortunately small) element. I daresay that with PATRIOT in effect in the USA, your privacy and liberty are safer here! Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Lanao del Norte From piolenc at mozcom.com Tue Nov 20 19:11:29 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:11:29 +0800 Subject: The bookburning begins... References: Message-ID: <3BFB1B61.60962B23@mozcom.com> John Young wrote: > > The LA Times report makes fair points but much of the > information being removed from selected repositories is > available elsewhere, as previously discussed here. > > An example is the removal of info on dams and reservoirs. > That is widely available elsewhere, as shown on Google. No doubt, but a high degree of public access is lost when paper and microfiche are burned, and of course anything in electronic form can be made to disappear from one minute to the next, with no evidence that it ever existed. I would still love to be standing next to the dumpster at a certain large university library with my banker box, along with a lot of friends with theirs... Marc de Piolenc Philippines From lmouchabac at lynx-technologies.com Wed Nov 21 02:33:53 2001 From: lmouchabac at lynx-technologies.com (Lionel Mouchabac) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:33:53 +0100 Subject: remove Message-ID: <007c01c17278$05451520$6713a8c0@LYTECH> remove -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 339 bytes Desc: not available URL: From piolenc at mozcom.com Tue Nov 20 20:04:59 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:04:59 +0800 Subject: The bookburning begins... References: Message-ID: <3BFB27EB.F547ABF9@mozcom.com> Nomen Nescio wrote: > Yet another cypherpunk idiocy, the idea that the government is scurrying > about trying to get information on cryptography out of libraries. A > good example of the narrow focus and lack of reasoning on the part of > cypherpunks. > > The government is trying to make it harder to get sensitive information > related to infrastructure vulnerabilities. It has no interest in > suppressing information on a widely used technology like crypto. > You might as well predict that they will pull all the books about the > internet off library shelves in order to try to improve network security. Your point is extensible to ALL categories of information - namely that removing them from depositories is futile if your goal is to fight terrorism. That applies equally well to infrastructure data, data on making explosives, microorganic culture, etc...no? That won't prevent a panic-stricken bureaucrat from trying. I would be very much surprised if government documents on cryptography - especially those including vulnerability assessments of currently deployed systems - were pulled, or at least nominated for removal. I just hope that some libraries, at least, take a principled stand against this nonsense. > And by the way, Marc de Piolenc, what happened to your assignment about > using Chaumian credentials to improve air travel security? You were > given the favor of pointers to Chaum's papers; you were expected to > provide something back in return, quid pro quo. Why don't you work on > that instead of inflicting unfounded opinions on the group? Been there, tried that. I cannot see any way that Chaumian credentials can enhance air travel security. The problem, as I understand it, is that credentials (if they work perfectly) establish a POSITIVE link between a given person and his/her attainments (this person has passed a course of flight training, this person has a million bucks in the bank). They cannot provide verification of negative propositions (this person has never been criminally insane, this person has never plotted to blow up an airliner), which would be crucial to a purely data-based security system. Having worked the security racket (albeit not for airlines or the FAA) for some 26 years, I must say that I can't imagine any purely data-based system working against terrorism, or any other serious crime for that matter. I would have posted earlier to that effect, except that others on the list had already expressed exactly this thought, so I assumed that your "assignment" was a jab at what you felt was an irrelevant question. Marc de Piolenc Mindanao From juancarlos at memorykings.net Wed Nov 21 09:04:59 2001 From: juancarlos at memorykings.net (juancarlos at memorykings.net) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:04:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: King Interactive Distributors Message-ID: <200111211704.MAA28672@smtp2.fdn.com> Hello, How are you. I am sorry, I have not emailed you lately. I was out of town. I just got back yesterday. Here are some of my specials.These are all great for internet auctions!!! These are wholesale prices ,however if you are interested in larger purchases,then discounts will be given.If you are interested in any of my products, please email me your phone number or call me toll-free 866-218-1263 . Brand New Dell Flatscreen LCD 14.1 Monitors These monitors are not your normal flatscreen monitors. These monitors come with a $179.95 video card. It is a TNT2 video card 32 mb. This monitor is black in color.IT is model 1401FP. Full retail is $499.95 your cost is $225.95 Mouses Logitech First Wheel Mouse,comes with scroll wheel ,Usb, and Ps/2 connector $6 each Memory 128 meg pc100/133 168 pin $18.75 each 256 meg pc100/133 168 pin $30.75 each 512 meg pc100/133 168 pin $50.75 each Software Bulk Email Software (allows you to email over 1 million addresses in less than 2 hours)$39.99 Dvd to Cd (allows you to copy any dvd to a cd that can be played in your dvd or cd rom)$29.99 Super Spy 2002 Platinum Version 5.1 (Awesome spy software,too much to list)$9.99 Animated Pro ( Has over 500 animated gifs)$4.99 Banned Cd ( Wholesale sources , IRS forgiveness programs,Hacker Guides, Free Cable tv info,Repair your credit,Discount software)$4.99 Software Platinum Edition (123 software titles such as label magic,Bartender Pro,Will Kit, Simple Bookeeper,Debt analyzer, etc,etc.)$4.99 GameTek ( 100 computer games)$4.99 PC Pro ( 106 different pc programs such as pop up killer,ram booster etc.)$4.99 Pc Tech (patches ,test programs,utilities and rescue programs)$4.99 Ebay Tutorial (Easy Html, Auction Tips, Pre-formatted ads,Ebay secrets, Sniping, web page tutor, etc...)$4.99 Screensaver Pro ( over 200 screensavers such as Carmen Electra, Anna Kournikov,Drew Barrymore,Snoopy,Shania Twain,WWF, Etc..) $4.99 Misc (great to sell on Ebay) Remote Control Extender $10 each Smartmedia Memory Compactflash memory From piolenc at mozcom.com Tue Nov 20 20:10:21 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:10:21 +0800 Subject: Graduate student seeking help in research References: <20011121005617.39312.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BFB292D.86051BC4@mozcom.com> I hate to break this to you, but members of this List are heavily concerned with preserving privacy, and sometimes even anonymity. Responding to your survey is as contrary to their nature as vegetarianism is to a tiger. Marc de Piolenc Praveen Badiga wrote: > > Hi, > > I am a masters student in MIS trying to do my research > on Hacking and Anonymity. I request you to please fill > out my questionnaire. From Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com Wed Nov 21 03:30:32 2001 From: Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com (Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:30:32 +0100 Subject: remove Message-ID: remove From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Nov 21 03:34:39 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:34:39 +0100 (MET) Subject: IP: Encryption: How Prevalent Is It? (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:35:31 -0500 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: Encryption: How Prevalent Is It? >Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:27:00 -0500 >From: "Dorothy E. Denning" >Organization: Georgetown University > >Encryption: How Prevalent Is It? >Oct. 15, 2001 By Lisa Boomer-Smith > > > >To learn more about encryption practices, InformationWeek Research fielded a >national survey this summer with the President's Export Council >Subcommittee on >Encryption. Of the 500 sites surveyed, two-thirds report using encryption to >protect company data. Of those sites using encryption technologies, 71% are >strongly committed to data encryption, while 21% are somewhat committed. > > > >http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20011011S0015 > >See also: http://www.informationweek.com/857/encryption.htm > >-- >Prof. Dorothy E. Denning >Georgetown University >http://www.cs.georgetown.edu/~denning For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Nov 21 03:38:10 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:38:10 +0100 (MET) Subject: IP: Risks of belief in identities: [risks] Risks Digest 21.74 (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:57:54 -0500 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: Risks of belief in identities: [risks] Risks Digest 21.74 >Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 11:54:17 PST >From: "Peter G. Neumann" >Subject: Risks of belief in identities > >For those of you who might believe that national ID cards might be a good >idea, check out the December 2001 *Commun.ACM* Inside Risks column by me >and Lauren Weinstein, previewed on my Web site > http://www.csl.sri.com/neumann/insiderisks.html >in anticipation of a U.S. House hearing next Friday on that subject. > >It is not just the cards themselves that would entail risks, but even moreso >all of the supporting infrastructures, widespread accessibility to >networking, monitoring, cross-linked databases, data mining, etc., and >particularly the risks of untrustworthy insiders issuing bogus >identification cards -- as happened a few years back on a large scale in the >Virginia state motor vehicle agency (RISKS-11.41). > >The latest item on the ease of getting phony or illegal or unchecked >identification papers is found an article by Michelle Malkin (Creators >Syndicate Inc.), which I saw in the *San Francisco Chronicle* on 10 Nov >2001: Abdulla Noman, employed by the U.S. Department of Commerce, issued >bogus visas in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, in one case in 1998 charging >approximately $3,178. The article also notes a variety of sleazy schemes >for obtaining visas, in some cases without ever appearing in person and >without any background checks, and in other cases for ``investments'' of a >hundred and fifty thousand dollars. The article concludes with this >sentence: ``Until our embassy officials stop selling American visas blindly >to every foreign investor waving cash, homeland security is a pipe dream.'' >I'm not sure that conclusion is representative of the full nature of the >problem of bogus identification, but the problem is clearly significant. >A driver's license or a passport or a visa or a National ID card is not >really proof of identity or genuineness or anything else. For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ From psmith36 at csc.com Wed Nov 21 04:42:32 2001 From: psmith36 at csc.com (psmith36 at csc.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:42:32 +0000 Subject: remove Message-ID: remove From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 21 12:54:44 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:54:44 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011121124127.038dfc08@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:00 AM 11/21/2001 -0500, dmolnar wrote: >On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, dmolnar wrote: > > > > > Isn't this a description of Hawala? > > > > Maybe. I regret I'm not familiar with Hawala. I'll go google it. > >Gee, it's even in the cypherpunks archives. Sorry, everyone. > >Yes, as described sure sounds similar. The point of doing it over PayPal >would just be to make it easy for people on this list to pay Nomen. Even >though hawala works in the real world, I'm not so sure we could just start >it and expect it to work here. PayPal is a poor choice due to fraud and repudiation issues. From a transactor's viewpoint one should only exchange harder for softer money http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:srzsJTHS-xE:www.coconutgold.com/mayscale.html+mayscale&hl=en However, eGold would be excellent: no repudiations. First you must identify and reach your potential customers. Does anyone know where I could get a relatively list of hushmail addresses? >One thing that came to mind while reading about it -- does it buy us >anything in a MIX-net to separate control messages from payload messages? >This came to mind because one of the descriptions of the hawala network >seemed to imply that payment would come in from one source and then the >name of the recipient would come in from another. > >The analogy in a MIX-net for e-mail would be having a message delivered to >a MIX, and then later forwarding instructions for that message delivered >by someone else. (said instructions identifying message by hash or >something). Another way to look at this is putting delay in the hands of >the client. Not clear to me that it helps; maybe make an adversary think a >certain node is the final destination? I can't think of a MIX design off >the top of my head which does this. Anyone else? something like this >discussed way back when? Does using eGold change the MIX characteristics or feasibility? Possible downsides http://www.goldbankone.com/article.php?sid=77 steve From blancw at cnw.com Wed Nov 21 13:09:10 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:09:10 -0800 Subject: The Crypto-Financial Paradox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From R. A. Hettinga: :So, as has ever been the case, whoever builds a robust, :instantly-settled, identity-independent, internet-ubiquitous :transaction mechanism that actually works in production for assets :people want to trade in large quantity is going to do quite well for :themselves by saving the entire economy a whole lot of money, and not :just people suffering from the depredations of an increasingly :powerful nation-state. ------------------------ But sometimes it seems like it will be a Cold Day in Hell before that happens. (Ryan, would you make this your next project? We'd all appreciate it *ever* so much.) .. Blanc From wolf at priori.net Wed Nov 21 13:33:57 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:33:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: The United States of America vs. The Left Coast Message-ID: Oregon refuses to ignore basic constitutional rights for the sake of the war on terrorism: "Portland police have refused a U.S. Justice Department request for help in interviewing Middle Eastern immigrants as part of its sweeping terrorism investigation, saying it would violate state law." "Arabs and Muslims have expressed outrage at the U.S. Justice Department's plan to interview the 5,000 men, who are not suspected of any crimes. The list is comprised of men ages 18 to 33 who entered the United States since January 1, 2000, from countries that have been linked to the hijackers in the September 11 attacks or were waystations for the terrorist organization, al Qaeda." [...] http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/21/inv.portland.police.questioning.ap/index.html Oregon does battle with Ashcroft over physician-assisted suicide laws: "The judge said his order "nullifies giving any legal effect" to Ashcroft's directive -- in other words, doctors should not fear legal repercussions if they follow the Oregon law." "Ashcroft's order prompted the court challenge, with Oregon officials saying the government was trying to strip the state of its right to govern the practice of medicine" [...] http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/21/assistedsuicide.hearing.ap/index.html DEA feds declare war on Californians: "Unable to find Osama bin Laden or dismantle al Qaeda, the Bush administration has attacked an easier target -- the 960 mostly AIDS and cancer patients of the Los Angeles Cannabis Resource Center." "The basis for the raid is the long-standing state-vs.federal government dispute over who has say over drug laws. In 1996, California voters approved Proposition 215, which gave patients the right to possess medical marijuana. The federal government has refused to recognize the law in California and eight other states and Washington, D.C., which have passed similar medical-marijuana measures. Last May, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled against the reopening of an Oakland club, a decision cited in last weeks search warrant." [...] http://www.laweekly.com/ink/01/50/news-simmons.shtml Add that to the raid on the Sacramento doctor and lawyer recently, resulting in hundreds of seized patient records. Damn pesky West Coast states, trying to pretend that they still have rights. They're part of the Union and have to do what Bushcroft says -- except, of course, when it comes to power outages. Then they're on their own. Hmm. Anyone see Redmond as the capital of the Independent States of the Pacific Coast? -MW- From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Nov 21 05:40:49 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:40:49 +0000 Subject: The bookburning begins... References: <335fed62cfc9f39c57112bb33f391afe@dizum.com> Message-ID: <3BFBAEE1.6F650FBE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Nomen Nescio wrote: [...] > unrelated - did you notice that "for the children" meme is almost gone and replaced with "against the terrorism" ? They forgot about "evil drug pushers" as well. British government started to downgrade criminal punishments for hemp within days of this business starting. They always wanted to (why waste all those police wages picking up kids smoking joints?) but never dared to because they think they will lose votes if they look "soft on crime". Every British govt. since at least 1950s has talked louder than it has walked, most ludicrously Thatcher's Tories who introduced scads of laws against everything from dangerous dogs to playing loud music at parties, most of which were never enforced at all. Anything for a headline in the "Something Must Be Done" tabloid press. Now there is a war on, and they can look hard by bombing Afghanistan. So no need to pretend about hemp any more. They are even suggesting being slightly softer on asylum seekers & illegal immigrants, a very unexpected result. Weird. Ken Brown From mch at informationanarchy.org Wed Nov 21 14:08:46 2001 From: mch at informationanarchy.org (Mark Henderson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:08:46 -0800 Subject: The United States of America vs. The Left Coast In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:33:57PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011121140846.A7034@informationanarchy.org> On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:33:57PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > Oregon refuses to ignore basic constitutional rights for the sake of the > war on terrorism I lived in Portland about ten years back. Nice place. Almost makes me want to move back. > Hmm. Anyone see Redmond as the capital of the Independent States of the > Pacific Coast? It seems like you might be advocating break-up of the United States. Might be sedition. Off to the electric chair with you for thinking bad thoughts... perhaps after a few hours of torture. Don't worry too much, with luck they'll let you off if you sign a loyalty oath. This country has become a very scary place. --- Mark Henderson, mch at squirrel.com, mch at informationanarchy.org "Heilir fsir. Heilar asynjur. Heil sja in fjvln}ta fold." - Sigrdrmfumal OpenPGP/GnuPG keys available at http://www.squirrel.com/pgpkeys.asc From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 21 14:22:54 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:22:54 -0800 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4EA8739A-DECE-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, November 21, 2001, at 12:09 PM, Eugene Leitl wrote: > >> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:58:28 -0600 >> From: gep2 at terabites.com >> Subject: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. >> To: dallasdemocrats at egroups.com, dave at farber.net >> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 >> >> Here's a disturbing story from today's New York Times: >> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/21/national/21BOOK.html?todaysheadlines >> >> I sure hope that the government is investigating and following each >> and every >> person who buys a copy of this book... I wonder if there's a way to >> force >> Tobiason to foot the bill for that security? >> This "gep2" character is typical of people who don't understand that the First Amendment does not give any power to government to ban such books...or to "follow each and every person," or to get their identities. Government agents who infringe the Constitution have earned killing. The part of the article where the government official says such books "should be illegal" is especially telling. I hope they try to illegalize such books. It will radicalize more people, and maybe hasten the day when festering holes like Washington, D.C. are annihilated. --Tim May "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 21 14:47:49 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:47:49 -0800 Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 07:36 AM, measl at mfn.org wrote: > (in my perfectly humble hate-group inspired opinion :-). It's also > great > fun watching Jeff and company pretend to be even dumber than your > average > @home luser. What makes you think they're pretending? -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 21 14:50:23 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:50:23 -0800 Subject: HOWTO Build a Nuclear Device In-Reply-To: <200111171750.fAHHoDt21184@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <2579737A-DED2-11D5-9CC9-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 09:50 AM, Eric Cordian wrote: > No ones hair is falling out. Really. Well, not from radiation anyway. -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From cyrberoutrevesx at free.fr Wed Nov 21 05:56:23 2001 From: cyrberoutrevesx at free.fr (nathalie) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:56:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: publicite pour adultes:revesx Message-ID: <200111211356.fALDuN187344@brinstar.nerim.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5755 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 21 14:59:10 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:59:10 -0800 Subject: The United States of America vs. The Left Coast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011121140538.038e3cc8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:33 PM 11/21/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Oregon refuses to ignore basic constitutional rights for the sake of the >war on terrorism: > >"Portland police have refused a U.S. Justice Department request for help >in interviewing Middle Eastern immigrants as part of its sweeping >terrorism investigation, saying it would violate state law." > >"Arabs and Muslims have expressed outrage at the U.S. Justice Department's >plan to interview the 5,000 men, who are not suspected of any crimes. The >list is comprised of men ages 18 to 33 who entered the United States since >January 1, 2000, from countries that have been linked to the hijackers in >the September 11 attacks or were waystations for the terrorist >organization, al Qaeda." > >[...] > >http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/21/inv.portland.police.questioning.ap/index.html > > >Oregon does battle with Ashcroft over physician-assisted suicide laws: > >"The judge said his order "nullifies giving any legal effect" to >Ashcroft's directive -- in other words, doctors should not fear legal >repercussions if they follow the Oregon law." > >"Ashcroft's order prompted the court challenge, with Oregon officials >saying the government was trying to strip the state of its right to govern >the practice of medicine" > >[...] > >http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/21/assistedsuicide.hearing.ap/index.html > > >DEA feds declare war on Californians: > >"Unable to find Osama bin Laden or dismantle al Qaeda, the Bush >administration has attacked an easier target -- the 960 mostly AIDS and >cancer patients of the Los Angeles Cannabis Resource Center." > >"The basis for the raid is the long-standing state-vs.federal government >dispute over who has say over drug laws. In 1996, California voters >approved Proposition 215, which gave patients the right to possess medical >marijuana. The federal government has refused to recognize the law in >California and eight other states and Washington, D.C., which have passed >similar medical-marijuana measures. Last May, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled >against the reopening of an Oakland club, a decision cited in last weeks >search warrant." I can't see any constitutional basis for the FDA (or much of the FAA or FCC regulations for that matter). Perhaps not regulating California marijuana clinics impacts marijuana clinics in other states: empty Commerce Clause justification. steve From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Nov 21 16:22:36 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:22:36 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <0d6fafaebf85a51371fc55c21b6abb9e@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: Someone wrote: > Unfortunately U.S. postal regulations > require identification when you rent a > mail box, public or private.... > > It won't do much good to chain them if > each one in the chain has your ID on file. > Granted you can use fake ID but that would > be breaking the law, raising the costs > considerably. US postal regs end at the US border. The rest of the world is full of mail drops, accommodation addresses and mail forwarding services. S a n d y From admin at americanlang.com Wed Nov 21 16:26:46 2001 From: admin at americanlang.com (ALC) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:26:46 PST Subject: AMERICAN LANGUAGE CENTER Message-ID: <1821$999219783670864$10$0@exploder1.em5000.com> Центр Американского Английского ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Call Now! Звоните Cейчас. Visit Today! Приходите Сегодня. 156-00-00, 159-57-34, 274-22-15 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Английский разговорный с преподавателями из США МЫШЛЕНИЕ, ПРОИЗНОШЕНИЕ, СТИЛЬ РЕЧИ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Эксклюзивная авторская методика Все стадии обучения : от нуля до высшего ПРИЕМЛЕМЫЕ ЦЕНЫ плюс ВЫСШЕЕ КАЧЕСТВО LOWEST CHARGES plus HIGHEST GRATIFICATION ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Moscow, Russia ------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, please click or copy and paste the following address into your browser: http://em5000.com/unsub.php?client=twisted_solo&listname=alc_b&email=cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4056 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blancw at cnw.com Wed Nov 21 16:37:50 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:37:50 -0800 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4EA8739A-DECE-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: >From Tim May: :I hope they try to illegalize such books. It will radicalize more :people, and maybe hasten the day when festering holes like Washington, :D.C. are annihilated. --------------------- But what I anticipate would happen at that point is another Afghanistan, with ten thousand bloomin' territories full of prickly warring tribes and war lords. The first thing which happens after a power vaccuum is created is that another group steps in to "establish law and order", with the acceptance, support, and relief of the majority (coincidentally, right now it feels like the Taliban is growing on these shores). History repeats itself. What would prevent it from doing so again? .. Blanc From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 21 16:39:39 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:39:39 -0800 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since not many gun shows are held in Manhattan we don't expect to get a chance to buy one of Tobiason's CDs for academic purposes. We offer to purchase a copy of a copy, or an original, for say, up to $100 including S&H. Send to: John Young 251 West 89th Street New York, NY 10024 If you want to be paid beforehand let me know how to do that. One of the academic purposes is to see how much of the information on the CD is available elsewhere on the Net just in case the Net is being set up to take the Hit along with public libraries and avid defenders of the Constitution. As far as I know the CD is not yet illegal in New York State or City. Libraries and C-defenders are nervous. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Nov 21 08:46:34 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:46:34 +0000 Subject: Gold References: <20011120032450.8F31C25A32@suburbia.net> <00ad01c1723e$3a017f40$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3BFBDA6A.F1EB881E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Neil Johnson wrote: [...] > I always liked the sub-plot in Scott Adams "Hitchhiker's Guide" books where > the accounts, middle managers, and "telephone sanitizers" that were sent to > earth to "prepare" for future inhabitation decided to use tree leaves for > currency, then set about to burn down all the trees "in order to control the > money supply". *Scott* Adams?????????? I think you mean the late Douglas Adams. Ken Brown From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 21 17:00:04 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:00:04 -0800 Subject: Fuck the U.S. Police State and the Tens of Millions who Police It In-Reply-To: <20011121140846.A7034@informationanarchy.org> Message-ID: <43D4E222-DEE4-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, November 21, 2001, at 02:08 PM, Mark Henderson wrote: > On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:33:57PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: >> Oregon refuses to ignore basic constitutional rights for the sake of >> the >> war on terrorism > > I lived in Portland about ten years back. Nice place. Almost makes me > want to move back. > >> Hmm. Anyone see Redmond as the capital of the Independent States of the >> Pacific Coast? > > It seems like you might be advocating break-up of the United States. > Might be sedition. Off to the electric chair with you for thinking > bad thoughts... perhaps after a few hours of torture. Alan Dershowitz is calling for torture only after at least at GS-12 in an accredited office building electronically authorizes the torture. Tribunals for terrorists like us ("if they are terrorists, they have no rights") will be carried out in military bases around the nation. > Don't worry too much, with luck they'll let you off if you sign a > loyalty oath. > > This country has become a very scary place. > Besides sedition, this is also treason. P.S. Fuck this nation. Fuck it to death. It has long been a festering pool of democracy. Now it has discarded what remained of constitutional foundations. Kill it before it multiplies. By any means necessary. --Tim May, Corralitos, California Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." --Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty. From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Wed Nov 21 16:16:01 2001 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:16:01 -0700 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks Message-ID: <0d6fafaebf85a51371fc55c21b6abb9e@noisebox.remailer.org> David Molnar wrote: > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Anonymous wrote: > > > than using your Visa card because only the seller learns your address > > rather than a centralized agency that knows all of your purchases. > > But it's hardly worth it. > > A friend of mine was considering a business plan for physical remailer+ > "infomediary" for a class project a year or two ago. Precisely to get > around this problem. Sell learns the remailer's address. More than a few > remailers and you can chain them, etc. etc. Unfortunately U.S. postal regulations require identification when you rent a mail box, public or private. See http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/audio/private_mail_box.htm: Recent amendments to postal regulations will make it harder for criminals to victimize innocent consumers by using mail drops. Anyone renting a box from a commercial mail-receiving agency such as Mail Boxers, Etc., Parcel Post, and Postnet will be required to provide two forms of ID, one being a photo ID. It won't do much good to chain them if each one in the chain has your ID on file. Granted you can use fake ID but that would be breaking the law, raising the costs considerably. From wolf at priori.net Wed Nov 21 17:41:49 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:41:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: The United States of America vs. The Left Coast In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011121140538.038e3cc8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > I can't see any constitutional basis for the FDA (or much of the FAA or FCC > regulations for that matter). Perhaps not regulating California marijuana > clinics impacts marijuana clinics in other states: empty Commerce Clause > justification. Question to the lawyerly-types: What would happen if California passed a law making seizure of marijuana plants from an approved medical marijuana facility a criminal offense? The local sheriff's department should then be responsible for preventing such criminal raids by the DEA, and the agents involved should be arrested and prosecuted. How would this play out, both on the street and in the courts? -MW- From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 21 14:47:31 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:47:31 -0500 Subject: The Crypto-Financial Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 4555 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 21 18:09:52 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:09:52 -0800 Subject: The United States of America vs. The Left Coast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <039CAE69-DEEE-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, November 21, 2001, at 05:41 PM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > >> I can't see any constitutional basis for the FDA (or much of the FAA >> or FCC >> regulations for that matter). Perhaps not regulating California >> marijuana >> clinics impacts marijuana clinics in other states: empty Commerce >> Clause >> justification. > > Question to the lawyerly-types: > > What would happen if California passed a law making seizure of marijuana > plants from an approved medical marijuana facility a criminal offense? > > The local sheriff's department should then be responsible for preventing > such criminal raids by the DEA, and the agents involved should be > arrested > and prosecuted. > > How would this play out, both on the street and in the courts? > Much the same thing as when governors in the past (and legislatures) said that there laws about race-mixing took precedence over Yankee laws *requiring* race-mixing. Namely, the troops were called in to assert the power of the Washingtonians over the states. Ditto for troops enforcing school busing. And in the New Regime of suspension of detention without trial, sneak and peak raids without warrants, torture (proposed by some Zionist shysters), and untrained-for-police-work soldiers waving M-16s at the proles, expect things to be much, much worse. --Tim May "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler From ingo.wies at aral.net Wed Nov 21 10:10:32 2001 From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net) Date: 21 Nov 2001 18:10:32 UT Subject: Offer DIK Products Message-ID: <0000FD89.3BFBFC26@smtp.aral.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. 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If this information has been removed by your server(s) we cannot control this and, again, have no way to remove your e-mail address. Simply reply to this message with "REMOVE" in the subject line. We wish to fully comply with your wishes and all applicable state and federal laws. Your cooperation and patience in this matter are very much appreciated. Thank You! =============================================================== From news at propertyline.com Wed Nov 21 18:11:00 2001 From: news at propertyline.com (news at propertyline.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:11 -0800 Subject: Add your agent or company listings to your existing website! Message-ID: <20011122021125.217B623981@tux.propertyline.com> Learn More About Property Line: http://www.propertyline.com To unsubscribe from this list, go to http://www.propertyline.com/promo/unsubscribe.php?email=cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com. Add your agent or company listings to your existing website! 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Free. Listing Display Classic is designed to fit into a variety of site designs. Listing Display Classic is absolutely free - now AND in the future. No mid-game rule changes here. If you're looking for a listing display that matches your site exactly, try Listing Display Pro. Pro lets you choose custom colors and fonts and even gives you a search engine on your site for your listings. Listing Display Pro is $20 month for individual agent sites or $50 a month for company sites. http://www.propertyline.com (c)2001 Property Line International, Inc. All Rights Reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4884 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at hyperreal.pl Wed Nov 21 10:33:22 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 21 Nov 2001 18:33:22 -0000 Subject: Risks of belief in identities Message-ID: >From: "Peter G. Neumann" >Subject: Risks of belief in identities > >For those of you who might believe that national ID cards might be a good >idea, check out the December 2001 *Commun.ACM* Inside Risks column by me >and Lauren Weinstein, previewed on my Web site > http://www.csl.sri.com/neumann/insiderisks.html The criticisms in this essay have nothing to do with national ID cards per se. The points have nothing to do with the cards being national, with them proving ID, or with them being in the form of a card for that matter. What the essay really argues against is any attempt to prove that someone has been checked for a certain property by showing a document. Documents can be forged, biometrics are imperfect, and the employees who issue the documents can be bribed. By this argument, we should have no driver's licenses, credit cards, or paper cash for that matter. Everything stuffed into your wallet is useless. Any one of those items could be forged or could have been given to you improperly. But we find them to be useful anyway. In actuality, no one in politics is seriously pushing for a national ID card. However they are talking about having an air travel card which would allow holders to go through an expedited security check. Neumann's arguments apply just as strongly against such a card (which need not have ID printed on it at all), further proving that he is not in fact opposing a national ID card but any kind of carried credential. From newsletter at gamblerdepot.com Wed Nov 21 19:32:24 2001 From: newsletter at gamblerdepot.com (newsletter at gamblerdepot.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 19:32:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: $150 In Free Chips From OnLuck Casino! Message-ID: <200111220332.fAM3WOF03353@srv54.server4me.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5881 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 21 16:43:09 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 19:43:09 -0500 Subject: Nov. 26: Barry Hurewitz, HIIP Seminar on Privacy; Nov. 29: Jerry Hausman, New Directions in Regulation Seminar on Broadband Access Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Nov 21 20:03:52 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 20:03:52 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111190639.AAA27706@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <3BFC08A8.19365.821FCE@localhost> -- James A. Donald: > > > > It took governments a generation and the vigorous and > > > > frequent application of bayonets and batons to render their > > > > money independent of precious metals. Anonymous: > >> but why did governments engage in the vigorous and frequent > >> application of bayonets and batons to render their money > >> independent of precious metals? James A. Donald: > > Because they could. Anonymous: > This goes beyond gratuitous demonstration of power and ability, > there is an economic reason behind it all. > What is / their / economic reason? It is more lucrative to issue pure fiat money, than to issue money backed by gold. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG eQEowuGI8WpNHqO556F5HndPZm6+Oss3V0doEbar 4QHYJ0Jb9HD8hvRd9MHwufYOCn3mtcwAnq2A83TJR From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 21 20:39:22 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 20:39:22 -0800 Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011117174122.007c27b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 05:41 PM, David Honig wrote: > At 10:57 AM 11/17/01 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >> Airport chemical "sniffers" apparently look for the signature of >> nitrogen >> compounds, not "explosives," per se. I've often wondered how many >> weekend >> gardeners have gotten hassled and delayed because of trace amounts of >> ammonia-based fertilizers on their person and effects. If you plan to >> fly, >> be sure to wash your hands thoroughly before heading out for the >> airport if >> you have been shoot, gardening or house cleaning. > > I've wondered about that too; airport sniffers must have encountered > Miracle Gro and angina nitro during the early days, measuring > a false alarm rate. Shooting is scary; you could contaminate > your car driving back from the range, then contaminate your > travel gear. I've had a backpack used to transport pistols and ammunition get wiped down at the airport. It can out clean. Doesn't mean anything tho'. -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 21 20:46:18 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 20:46:18 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011117174902.007b37b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 05:49 PM, David Honig wrote: > At 03:15 PM 11/17/01 -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: >> on Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:36:32PM -0800, alphabeta121 >> (alphabeta121 at hotmail.com) wrote: >>> what does C-A-C-L stand for? >> >> Crypto-Anarcho Capitalist Libertarian, per archives. Shorthand for a >> common, if not prevailing, political viewpoint among active >> listmembers. >> > > That label is > > 1. inconsistent (libertarian & anarchy) Not necessarily. It is argued both that Libertarians are chicken-shit anarchists (afraid to take the last step) or that Anarchists are just extreme Libertarians. Also, keep in mind that there are many "anarchist" philosophies, in fact almost as many as there are anarchists, and all of them (well most of them) have rules or laws. > 2. redundant ('capitalist' and libertarian) No. Libertarians are for "free markets", which are inherently capitalistic in nature, but the reverse is not true. There are many *wealthy* capitalists who are all for strongly regulated markets and high barriers to entry. One could argue that they are not Capitalists. > 3. nonsensical --cryptography is a neutral technology with debatable > social consequences The "Crypto-" part of "Crypto-Anarchist" may in fact have nothing at all to do with cryptography. > 4. one poster's label; and anyone can post here > Your milage may vary. Not by much. It's almost always between 48 and 51 MPG. -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From declan at well.com Wed Nov 21 17:56:31 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 20:56:31 -0500 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: ; from sandfort@mindspring.com on Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 04:22:36PM -0800 References: <0d6fafaebf85a51371fc55c21b6abb9e@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <20011121205631.A1984@cluebot.com> On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 04:22:36PM -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > US postal regs end at the US border. The rest of the world is full of mail > drops, accommodation addresses and mail forwarding services. Or, even inside the U.S., you could run an anon mail-receiving locker (insert $20 bill for two days, much like train station lockers) service if you only accepted FedEx/UPS/etc. letters and packages. Obviously it would cost more for users, but for sufficiently valuable cargo... -Declan From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Nov 21 21:00:48 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:00:48 -0800 Subject: why market to Joe Sixpack? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David wrote: > Declan's comment on operating a physical > remailer for suitably valuable cargo, > plus some of Tim's recent comments about > integration, made me think of the > question in the subject line. So far >I see at least three possible answers. > > 1) Make lots of money. > > 2) Spread awareness (that "funny feeling in the stomach" recently > discussed) and save our fellow man. Make the world safe for privacy. > > 3) Ensure that cryptography and privacy-enhancing technologies have uses > besides "Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse," so that they aren't banned. > > anything else? Yes, a corollary to 2) is that by saving our fellow man, we are saving ourselves as well. The elitist idea that it doesn't make any difference what happens to the little people is wrong-headed. Because the world is set up to make cars affordable for the little people, you and I can have personal automotive transportation at a fraction of the cost if we were to try and assemble them up in Galt's Gulch. If crypto gets wide-spread use by the little people, our use will be lost in the noise. S a n d y From declan at well.com Wed Nov 21 18:05:13 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:05:13 -0500 Subject: Risks of belief in identities In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@hyperreal.pl on Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 06:33:22PM -0000 References: Message-ID: <20011121210513.B1984@cluebot.com> It's important to be clear about what characteristics of a national ID card are objectionable. Among those may be a requirement that it be shown on demand, that it be tied to databases that track movements, etc. What is disturbing about a national ID card is not the fact that it's standardized, for instance, but an array of features that could crop up elsewhere. It is possible to imagine a scenario where a database-linked, biometric-tied system using driver's licenses is worse -- that is, more privacy-invasive -- than some forms of a "national ID card." I posted more on a SiliconValley.com roundtable recently: http://forums.siliconvalley.com/discussion/msgshow.cfm/msgboard=5968009897410465&msg=8036926450156813&page=1&idDispSub=5145094516046185 -Declan On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 06:33:22PM -0000, Anonymous wrote: > >From: "Peter G. Neumann" > >Subject: Risks of belief in identities > > > >For those of you who might believe that national ID cards might be a good > >idea, check out the December 2001 *Commun.ACM* Inside Risks column by me > >and Lauren Weinstein, previewed on my Web site > > http://www.csl.sri.com/neumann/insiderisks.html > > The criticisms in this essay have nothing to do with national ID cards > per se. The points have nothing to do with the cards being national, > with them proving ID, or with them being in the form of a card for > that matter. What the essay really argues against is any attempt to > prove that someone has been checked for a certain property by showing > a document. Documents can be forged, biometrics are imperfect, and the > employees who issue the documents can be bribed. > > By this argument, we should have no driver's licenses, credit cards, > or paper cash for that matter. Everything stuffed into your wallet > is useless. Any one of those items could be forged or could have been > given to you improperly. But we find them to be useful anyway. > > In actuality, no one in politics is seriously pushing for a national > ID card. However they are talking about having an air travel card > which would allow holders to go through an expedited security check. > Neumann's arguments apply just as strongly against such a card (which > need not have ID printed on it at all), further proving that he is not > in fact opposing a national ID card but any kind of carried credential. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Nov 21 12:09:47 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:09:47 +0100 (MET) Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:37:50 -0500 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. >Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:58:28 -0600 >From: gep2 at terabites.com >Subject: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. >To: dallasdemocrats at egroups.com, dave at farber.net >X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 > >Here's a disturbing story from today's New York Times: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/21/national/21BOOK.html?todaysheadlines > >I sure hope that the government is investigating and following each and every >person who buys a copy of this book... I wonder if there's a way to force >Tobiason to foot the bill for that security? > >In any case, jerks like this clearly aren't helping to keep our nation >secure... >if anything, crap like this will make our government MORE repressive (not >less). > >[quote] > >November 21, 2001 > >THE HOW-TO BOOK >In Utah, a Government Hater Sells a Germ-Warfare Book > >By PAUL ZIELBAUER with WILLIAM J. BROAD > >SALT LAKE CITY, Nov. 19 — At the "Crossroads of the West" gun show here last >weekend, weapons dealers sold semi- automatic rifles and custom-made pistols, >and ammunition wholesalers unloaded bullets by the case. But perhaps the most >fearsome weapon for sale in the cavernous, crowded exposition center was a >book. > >Next to the Indian handicraft booth, Timothy W. Tobiason was selling >printed and >CD copies of his book, "Scientific Principles of Improvised Warfare and Home >Defense Volume 6-1: Advanced Biological Weapons Design and Manufacture," a >germ-warfare cookbook that bioterrorism experts say is accurate enough to be >dangerous. > >Mr. Tobiason, an agricultural-chemicals entrepreneur from Nebraska with a >bitter >hatred for the government, said he sold about 2,000 copies of his >self-published >book a year as he moved from gun show to gun show across America. The book, >which includes directions for making "mail delivered" anthrax, suggests >that the >knowledge necessary to start an anthrax attack like the one that has >terrorized >the East Coast is readily accessible. For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ From declan at well.com Wed Nov 21 18:16:11 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:16:11 -0500 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4EA8739A-DECE-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:22:54PM -0800 References: <4EA8739A-DECE-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011121211611.C1984@cluebot.com> Clearly "gep2" does not understand principles of free expression and limited government. A shame. On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:22:54PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > The part of the article where the government official says such books > "should be illegal" is especially telling. But one of the few positive things about the post-Sep. 11 response is that we haven't seen much in the way of serious proposals for prior restraint on publications that would be allowed before that date. That is, naturally, damning with faint praise, and there have been some moves to limit availability of info (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02820.html), but it could have been far worse. -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Nov 21 18:18:49 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:18:49 -0500 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from blancw@cnw.com on Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 04:37:50PM -0800 References: <4EA8739A-DECE-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011121211849.D1984@cluebot.com> On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 04:37:50PM -0800, Blanc wrote: > But what I anticipate would happen at that point is another Afghanistan, > with ten thousand bloomin' territories full of prickly warring tribes and > war lords. Obviously as a DC resident, I hope that Washington is not hit by any biochem/womd attack. But if it were to happen and me and my home were to be destroyed along with the federal bureaucracy,it seems far more likely that state governors would step in to fill much of the "power vaccuum." -Declan From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net Wed Nov 21 19:28:32 2001 From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:28:32 -0600 Subject: Gold References: <20011120032450.8F31C25A32@suburbia.net> <00ad01c1723e$3a017f40$0100a8c0@mshome.net> <3BFBDA6A.F1EB881E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <004201c17305$c31a5c80$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Whoops ! Yes I meant Douglas Adams ( My punishment: To be damned to heck and forced to listen to Vogon Poetry). -Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Brown" To: "Neil Johnson" Cc: "cypherpunks" Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:46 AM Subject: Re: Gold > > Neil Johnson wrote: > > > [...] > > > I always liked the sub-plot in Scott Adams "Hitchhiker's Guide" books where > > the accounts, middle managers, and "telephone sanitizers" that were sent to > > earth to "prepare" for future inhabitation decided to use tree leaves for > > currency, then set about to burn down all the trees "in order to control the > > money supply". > > *Scott* Adams?????????? > > I think you mean the late Douglas Adams. > > Ken Brown From rsw at jfet.org Wed Nov 21 18:32:39 2001 From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:32:39 -0500 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from Eugene.Leitl@lrz.uni-muenchen.de on Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:09:47PM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20011121213239.A3626@positron.mit.edu> Eugene Leitl wrote: > For archives see: > http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ A quick Google found the following: http://www.kscourts.org/ca10/cases/2001/07/99-3355.htm -- Riad Wahby rsw at jfet.org MIT VI-2/A 2002 From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Wed Nov 21 21:45:06 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:45:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weizmann Institute Amazes World Again Message-ID: <200111220545.fAM5j6f25148@artifact.psychedelic.net> You know, when I saw the headline for this story, the words "Weizmann Institute" immediately leaped into my head. It's just that certain something about Weizmann Institute press releases that reminds me of University of Utah press conferences back in the days of Cold Fusion. In any case, the folks at the Weizmann Institute are now claiming to have developed the "trillion would fit in a test tube" DNA computer. http://in.news.yahoo.com/011121/107/199x5.html ----- LONDON (Reuters) - Following Mother Nature's lead, Israeli scientists have built a DNA computer so tiny that a trillion of them could fit in a test tube and perform a billion operations per second with 99.8 percent accuracy. Instead of using figures and formulas to solve a problem, the microscopic computer's input, output and software are made up of DNA molecules -- which store and process encoded information in living organisms. Scientists see such DNA computers as future competitors to for their more conventional cousins because miniaturisation is reaching its limits and DNA has the potential to be much faster than conventional computers. "We have built a nanoscale computer made of biomolecules that is so small you cannot run them one at a time. When a trillion computers run together they are capable of performing a billion operations," Professor Ehud Shapiro of the Weizmann Institute in Israel told Reuters on Wednesday. It is the first programmable autonomous computing machine in which the input, output, software and hardware are all made of biomolecules. Although too simple to have any immediate applications it could form the basis of a DNA computer in the future that could potentially operate within human cells and act as a monitoring device to detect potentially disease-causing changes and synthesise drugs to fix them. The model could also form the basis of computers that could be used to screen DNA libraries in parallel without sequencing each molecule, which could speed up the acquisition of knowledge about DNA. ... -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 21 22:02:30 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:02:30 -0800 Subject: why market to Joe Sixpack? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <83DBA892-DF0E-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, November 21, 2001, at 08:51 PM, dmolnar wrote: > Declan's comment on operating a physical remailer for suitably valuable > cargo, plus some of Tim's recent comments about integration, made me > think > of the question in the subject line. So far I see at least three > possible > answers. > > 1) Make lots of money. > > 2) Spread awareness (that "funny feeling in the stomach" recently > discussed) and save our fellow man. Make the world safe for privacy. > > 3) Ensure that cryptography and privacy-enhancing technologies have uses > besides "Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse," so that they aren't banned. > > anything else? > I'll take the other side of the argument. Not because I have anything against Joe Sixpack using strong crypto, remailers, anonymous markets, markets for assassinating tyrants, data havens, and all the rest. But.... * Many have knocked themselves out trying to get the masses to encrypt all of their e-mail...guess what? Most people don't want to jump through hoops to send innocuous messages to their friends. Even more so, fewer of us want to be lectured at that we "should" be using crypto at all times. * The "sell to the masses" argument is largely why the focus of crypto has been spinning its wheels in issues of "integrating with common programs." Sounds great to do so, except that the fast rate of change of mailers and other programs means the established programs tend to "break" with distressing regularity...with not enough people around (and being paid) to fix the new incompatibilities. * Worst of all, the "how do we get Joe and Alice Sixpack to use PGP?" focus, and the similar focus for remailers and digital money such as it is, has shifted the efforts into the "millicent ghetto" part of the value of crypto vs. cost of crypto space I have discussed. Instead of looking at what makes Swiss banks worthwhile for people to fly to Geneva to deal with, we have schemes for people buying things they can buy with cash or with VISA cards just as efficiently. And instead of anoymizing child porn, we have schemes for anonymizing hits on Yahoo's Sports pages. No surprise that the customers who live in this millicent ghetto say "Huh?" Put bluntly, I don't see sophisticated money traders and offshore bankers beating the drum to get Joe Sixpack using Swiss banks. How the world might be _different_ or _better_ if crypto and remailer and ecash uses were very widespread is not the issue. The issue is that selling to such users is difficult for many logical reasons and that efforts are better spent developing the technologies and markets in such a way that maybe Joe Sixpack will someday follow. I am willing to admit that it is possible that Cypherpunk notions could be "driven from the bottom up." but I see no evidence for this. And I see much evidence that the technologies will be adopted by "those who care" (those who have something to hide, in common parlance). An interesting topic, to be sure. --Tim May "Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events following 9/11/2001 From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Nov 21 22:04:01 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:04:01 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <58693d5cdc0e1ea90527302e1e42a2a6@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <3BFC24D1.10637.F02291@localhost> -- On 20 Nov 2001, at 17:04, Anonymous wrote: > Third, this leaves the use of digital cash to purchase > information goods and services online. The problem is, few > companies have succeeded so far in selling information > goods online As you mention below, pornography is the big exception. Of course, control over assets is also an informational good, though not one that has been successfully put online yet. The cypherpunk dream will be close to realization when liability is limited not by the decree of the state but by the difficulty of discovering who the owners of a business are. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG omb+0fl57agPOUEzge7hMd8nVf7S5Qhuhj8H1YWY 4y+BQDxfgXp2UJcabXRe61UEv+6AWGmQpItvkZ9ym From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 21 22:08:41 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:08:41 -0800 Subject: Weizmann Institute Amazes World Again In-Reply-To: <200111220545.fAM5j6f25148@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <60A4BFE5-DF0F-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> On Wednesday, November 21, 2001, at 09:45 PM, Eric Cordian wrote: > You know, when I saw the headline for this story, the words "Weizmann > Institute" immediately leaped into my head. > > It's just that certain something about Weizmann Institute press releases > that reminds me of University of Utah press conferences back in the days > of Cold Fusion. > > In any case, the folks at the Weizmann Institute are now claiming to > have > developed the "trillion would fit in a test tube" DNA computer. > .... > "We have built a nanoscale computer made of biomolecules that is so > small > you cannot run them one at a time. When a trillion computers run > together > they are capable of performing a billion operations," Professor Ehud > Shapiro of the Weizmann Institute in Israel told Reuters on Wednesday. > > It is the first programmable autonomous computing machine in which the > input, output, software and hardware are all made of biomolecules. Sounds like the same DNA computing that Adleman was doing several years ago. Also sounds like the same Ehud Shapiro who used to do some good work in Flat Concurrent Prolog (FCP), a model for much of the work in Joule and E. A good thing the Department of Hype was brought in to co-author the scientific press releases. --Tim May "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet From ryan at havenco.com Wed Nov 21 14:14:25 2001 From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:14:25 +0000 Subject: thoughts on proxy services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011121221425.B6477@atreides.havenco.com> [...suggestions on proxy services by Peter Trei...] (my thoughts follow; might as well post to the list as well since I'd love for someone else to provide this service vs. me; I care more about having it available than the eventual revenues it might bring. But I suspect I'll do it myself; comments from list people would be useful though. I would *love* to be surprised by a new and interesting security company or project doing worthwhile stuff which I myself would use, even if it's in competition with me.) (my goals: 100%+ cost recovery. simple design, implementation, and operation. minimal barriers to entry for anyone. security against demonstrated threats, and an explicit statement of what risks remain and maybe how to deal with them later.) I'm sure the issue of proxying, general traffic analysis protection, etc. has been discussed many times by people smarter than me, but this is my basic understanding: do you agree? If I can't find something much better, it would be tempting to write a brief summary paper; nothing really new, but this is an area where a clearly presented summary could be useful to designers. (I just deleted about 5 pages of an attempt to do this; it was just more confusing than it answered.) [...safeweb's failed revenue model, good technical model...] Yeah, the tricky part is making it pay. Since bandwidth is rather cheaper in bulk (especially since you can then peer more of it away), I figure cost per marginal Mbps is 95% of the previous. I have a serious surplus of outgoing traffic right now, as do most non-end-user sites; something which brought inbound traffic would make peering arrangements easier. Any traffic which would go to on-Sealand servers anyway is no marginal cost to me. Yet, it provides a substantial benefit to server operators; sure you're talking to a Sealand-hosted server, but which one? We have casinos, payment systems, but also some benign content. The benefit there is primarily some traffic analysis protection against outside parties; but you also gain some protection from HavenCo's customers learning your identity. At least with the population of sites we have now, I'm far more concerned about passive monitoring at the client's LAN or firewall than anything else. People will "pay" with time and money if a product solves an actual demonstrated problem; getting fired for looking at pr0n at work is one of those problems. An https:// url with maybe http accelerator cache inside the network and then displaying content in a frame is a first and very easy solution. An entirely server-side url rewriter is also possible; rewrite the html as sent with keyed hash urls or something, translate on the servers. But frame is first since it's simple, 100% server side, and secure. This also keeps crap out of IE's url history file, and I can do nocache-rewritting as well on the pages (will have to experiment with various browsers to see what that really does). With a couple of SSL accelerators, this should be fairly cheap to provide. I'll use that to determine usage patterns, bandwidth consumed, etc. I will add more general-interest servers on Sealand (both customers and free); and perhaps some kind of USENET service, file archive, discussion board, etc., which will provide a lot of benign cover traffic. One of the better arguments against using HavenCo for anything very sensitive is that even with crypto to the server, you'd be giving away your participation in an online casino or porn site or whatever; this will solve that. I can subsidize random people text-proxying, but I can't do porn or mp3. I could charge actual site owners to put their porn on Sealand (normal commercial hosting arrangement), possibly just as an actual mirror site, vs. moving their primary, to support HavenCo-proxy customers. An insignificant part of the overall porn market, but maybe a few of the ~50-100 *big* porn hosters will put a box there just for the 0.01% of customers who want to access via HavenCo; they then could get 50-100% of that market. With http accelerator caching, bandwidth prices would even be reasonable for them. I think this was where ZKS missed out with Freedom; cooperation with service providers to provide on-network anonymous services, assistance in making their services privacy-compliant, etc. could have made freedom.net actually contribute to the meaningful (products sold to businesses, not privacy hobbyists) bottom line. Oh well. We do this already with a "net-10" onsite to allow customer to customer traffic, infrastructure, etc., but making it transparent to the server operator and using a proxy in normal address space makes more sense, I think. The original motivation for using net-10 was to make accounting simpler, and to "fail secure" (since net-10 isn't routed); we have flows-based accounting as a possibility, and if you want fail-secure, net-10 is still a possibility. -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE] ryan at havenco.com CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd. +44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F From business_india at indiatimes.com Wed Nov 21 09:13:40 2001 From: business_india at indiatimes.com (business_india at indiatimes.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:43:40 +0530 Subject: CATALOG OF CHINA PRODUCTS ON CD-ROM Message-ID: <200111212338.RAA16990@einstein.ssz.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4020 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Rohit at KnowNow.com Wed Nov 21 22:44:04 2001 From: Rohit at KnowNow.com (Rohit Khare) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:44:04 -0800 Subject: Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2... Message-ID: Executive Summary: I am near my limit of anger with the "random", "neutral" FAA passenger profiling algorithm. I have every reason to believe some programmer has coded some strictures into it which would truly offend American civil society if translated from mathematics back into the ugly politics from whence it came. Soon after my last installment, I had to turn back around and fly out of Denver. They made me X-ray my *shoes*... This time, the problem was *too much* time on their hands. The second story is how I missed the last flight back home on Thanksgiving eve because the security supervisor wouldn't show up to process me at the gate in time. That snowballed into a series of Catch-22 situations trying to find a lost pair of glasses along the way. First, Denver. A tip on avoiding the Disneyland-like lines at the two main X-ray posts -- even though, strictly speaking, that's an insult to Disneyland, since even they've instituted a take-a-number pass system for the most popular rides. Rather than take the train to one of the outlying concourses, ignore the main signage and *walk* to Terminal A over a bridge on the ticketing level. That's the X-ray post to Continental, British, etc. Much less popular, even though many a savvy traveler knew that was the way around United's silly carryon sizer templates (Contintental's machines don't use them). Then take the train to wherever you really need to get to. A co-worker and I arrived at DIA together, and I was able to purchase a new ticket, and even with the foolishness of fellow business travelers in stocking-feet waiting for their shoes back, I caught up with him in the same train car... he spent the entire time in United lines. Now, for the real outrage. Today, I was warned about massive Thanksgiving delays at Sea-Tac, so I cut short a beer with a buddy in Bellevue to race back two and a half hours in advance. I returned the car, picked up a boarding pass from a pliant robot kiosk, and got through security in a wink. Two hours in advance... no problem, right? Well, I was a selectee, presumably since it was a one-way ticket. So I sat through yet another embarassing tearing-apart of my bags, and this time they found a pocket screwdriver. A promotional pen-style screwdriver that I've had for ten years (it's a NeXT repair shop :-) 1. They think you are not allowed to board with a three-inch, 1/8-inch wide screwdriver. 2. You are not allowed to ask the aircrew to hold it for you on the flight. 3. You are not allowed to leave the selectee table until a "GSC" supervisor comes to look it over. At this point, there's twenty minutes left.... tick-tock... now, the flight is almost completely boarded. You're still waiting. And now you suddenly realize you've lost your $400 prescription sunglasses. 4. You keep all your metal -- everything -- in your jacket at all times, so that you can x-ray a jacket rather than begin to empty out pockets. Your sunglasses have fallen out at some checkpoint. At this point, you start tracing back your steps. It's 7 minutes or so to push-back. 5. If you leave the selectee table, you will have to be searched all over again when you return to the gate 6. They do not have walkie-talkies to ask security if your glasses were stuck in the X-ray tunnel 7. See #3: You are not allowed to leave at all until the mythical GSC arrives. Finally, a GSC arrives. Two minutes or so to departure, you haven't been given any chance to run down and solve the mystery. 8. The screwdriver must be confiscated or bags must be checked. 9. Just because you have been flying with it all week means nothing. "We're supposed to randomly change what the FAA is looking for every day". Parse that, if you dare! 10. Any carry-on bag may be gate-checked *except* those containing "forbidden carry-on items". Catch-22 #1. So now you're finally free to run back to the X-ray post and miss your flight. 11. With about fifteen uniformed personnel of various stripes (National Guard, Argenbright, Alaska, and United), none of the first half-dozen people you ask claims to know about lost articles. 12. Before you can find a supervisor, the GSC has wandered back to warn them you are carrying a screwdriver. 13. So at this point, instead of any sympathy for a harried traveler asking for a supervisor, it's time for a lecture about "having committed two federal crimes, bringing a forbidden item into a screening area, lying about it to a ticket agent, two fines at $11,000 each" -- which they take the pompous time to warn you adds up to "a potential total fine of $22,000" since you're not paying enough attention to the supercillious bastard who won't admit to knowing who to ask about lost articles. Note that A) you are not allowed to leave your bags unaccompanied; and B) the only way for a solo traveler to speak to a security supervisor is to enter the screening area. Catch-22 #2. 14. Sufficiently alarmed, I am ordered to walk around, get back in line, and wait to be escorted back to the *front* of the metal detector to be handed my bags back. At this point, my interest is in going back to the Rental car desk and asking if I left the glasses there. At no point has anyone volunteered a back-up flight alternative for how I might every make it back to Northern California tonight. Ultimately, when rebooking my ticket for a later flight to SFO, I mention that I missed my flight because as a selectee, the personnel needed to inspect me were not available in time. I get snapped at for suggesting I was at all inconvenienced. And I'm marked as a selectee again. And when I finally wade through security for the fourth time, the same super is there to claim that the glasses must have been swept up to Port of Seattle Lost and Found. But that he doesn't know what their phone number is. 15. Seattle is the only airport in the world without white courtesy telephones :-) But while looking for those phones, the wandering GSC comes back around and huddles with the supervisor, staring at me. She's obviously asking him how I could have come back in without having checked my bag - and my dreaded screwdriver. Gingerly, they begin to follow me back out of the screening area. I decide to placate their fears that I got back through their infallible dragnet with contraband. "Oh, I mailed it to myself, first-class air-mail!" ... Clever solutions aside, the outcome of this story is that a very harried, very frequent traveling US citizen was at no point treated like an innocent person anxious to solve a problem. Instead, every contact is an opportunity to be treated like a suspect criminal. In three hours, I was patted down four times, had my bags X-rayed twice, hand-searched twice more, and went through metal detectors six times. The irony of it all is that the selectee program was created by the FAA for those passengers who choose NOT to provide photo identification as a matter of right. CAPPS, the Computer-Assisted Passenger Profiling System, deserves to be sued out of existence. I'm almost ready to join the ACLU. These so-called "confidential" criteria are not convincingly as neutral as the cheery pink "You have been randomly selected"! flyers in your ticket indicate. And the time-filling additional random searches by the gate security supervisor were even more visibly biased towards brown young men. Even one Army soldier on Thanksgiving leave. I am sick of being treated as guilty until proven innocent! Not least by such a patently fallible and placebo-driven security system... The Feds will be *such* an improvement. -- not! Yours, Rohit http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ryan at havenco.com Wed Nov 21 15:26:14 2001 From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:26:14 +0000 Subject: The Crypto-Financial Paradox Message-ID: <20011121232614.A7070@atreides.havenco.com> Bob Hettinga wrote: > Quoting "Blanc ": > > But sometimes it seems like it will be a Cold Day in Hell before > > that happens. > > (Ryan, would you make this your next project? > > We'd all appreciate it *ever* so much.) I think I've figured out why ecash hasn't been deployed. 1) "Math is hard! Let's go shopping!" 2) Yet, ecash can be used for shopping. The resulting paradox has rendered ecash a logical impossibility :) > Not to un-swash his buckle, and all that, because he really deserves > massive kudos for what he's done with HavenCo., but Ryan's already > tried that, once before, on Anguilla, if we all remember, and it > wasn't at all pretty (cf. Declan's articles earlier this year about > the E-Gold/Systemics pissing contest). Twice, actually, if you count HINDE. (unclear if 0 for 2 is better than 0 for 1; I actually think so. Better than 0 for 0 regardless.) -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE] ryan at havenco.com CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd. +44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Wed Nov 21 23:31:26 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:31:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weizmann Institute Amazes World Again Message-ID: <200111220731.fAM7VQ525340@artifact.psychedelic.net> Tim wrote: > Sounds like the same DNA computing that Adleman was doing several years > ago. As I recall, Adleman's DNA actually chugged away in a test tube computing Hamiltonian Paths. I look forward to news of Shapiro's DNA doing something similarly useful. > A good thing the Department of Hype was brought in to co-author the > scientific press releases. My favorite Weizmann Institute press release was the one about their amazing discovery that electrons in a double slit experiment do not produce an interference pattern when you observe which slit they go through. (E. Buks et al., Nature, 26 Feb. 1998.) Vulis lampooned this in a very funny spoof, in which the "Weizmann Institute" announced the "amazing result" of a similar experiment with photons. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Wed Nov 21 20:51:04 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:51:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: why market to Joe Sixpack? Message-ID: Declan's comment on operating a physical remailer for suitably valuable cargo, plus some of Tim's recent comments about integration, made me think of the question in the subject line. So far I see at least three possible answers. 1) Make lots of money. 2) Spread awareness (that "funny feeling in the stomach" recently discussed) and save our fellow man. Make the world safe for privacy. 3) Ensure that cryptography and privacy-enhancing technologies have uses besides "Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse," so that they aren't banned. anything else? I think the physical remailer for only FedEx will fail 3. -David From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 21 23:51:10 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:51:10 -0800 Subject: No Thumbprint, No Rental Car Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011121235058.0477f230@pop3.lvcm.com> No Thumbprint, No Rental Car Dollar Rent A Car is currently making customers give a thumbprint before they give them the keys, another example of biometrics being used for ID purposes. http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,48552,00.html From ses24 at ses24.com Wed Nov 21 09:24:58 2001 From: ses24 at ses24.com (sesп) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 02:24:58 +0900 Subject: ؿܿ Message-ID: <200111211718.JAA22436@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 13120 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at hyperreal.pl Wed Nov 21 19:24:56 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 22 Nov 2001 03:24:56 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <16f1dae75cdd6f9d9441a2cf62c3fcd7@hyperreal.pl> Declan wrote: >>Sandfort wrote: >> US postal regs end at the US >> border. The rest of the world is >> full of mail drops, accommodation >> addresses and mail forwarding >> services. > Or, even inside the U.S., you could > run an anon mail-receiving locker > (insert $20 bill for two days, much > like train station lockers) service > if you only accepted FedEx/UPS/etc. > letters and packages. Obviously it > would cost more for users, but for > sufficiently valuable cargo... This already exists, and has for many years (I have been using this service personally since the late 70s, early 80s. John Smith Suite (your drop box number here) 134 West 32nd Street New York City, NY From cypherpunks at toad.com Thu Nov 22 03:29:02 2001 From: cypherpunks at toad.com (cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 03:29:02 Subject: FREE Jenna Flix Time:3:29:02 AM Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10994 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fivestar at nutritionguys.com Thu Nov 22 01:02:11 2001 From: fivestar at nutritionguys.com (Shane Mullholand) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 04:02:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: FiveStarSupplements.com Message-ID: <1989468608.1006420636132.JavaMail.administrator@lp1> PLEASE, if you no longer wish to be on this list or to receive future mailings, PLEASE unsubscribe from this list. http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&id=hhrxjce6.9ladnde6&m=hhrxjce6&ea=cypherpunks at toad.com Welcome FiveStarSupplements.com email list members! This mailer is not Spam. FiveStarSupplements.com email list has been acquired by NutritionGuys.com. This email list and service, is a list to which you've subscribed. PLEASE unsubscribe if you no longer wish to receive this mailing, and we will never email you again. http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&id=hhrxjce6.9ladnde6&m=hhrxjce6&ea=cypherpunks at toad.com View our privacy policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp ------------------------------------------------------------ TheNutritionGuys.com Shop with us and Unlock the Healthy You! http://www.nutritionguys.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------- $100.00 Supplement Give Away John W. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8746 bytes Desc: not available URL: From MAILER-DAEMON at aol.com Thu Nov 22 01:43:06 2001 From: MAILER-DAEMON at aol.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 04:43:06 EST Subject: Mail Delivery Problem Message-ID: <200111220447.OFQa05631@omr-r02.mx.aol.com> Sorry cypherpunks at toad.com. Your mail to funkymonkey323 could not be delivered because funkymonkey323 is not accepting mail with attachments or embedded images From mattd at useoz.com Wed Nov 21 10:39:30 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 05:39:30 +1100 Subject: cryptoanarchy Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011122051121.00a30170@pop.useoz.com> How to get there from here.Is this the long dark night of the cypherpunks soul? I would argue that its the cliche darkests hour before the dawn.The alphabet police soup are on us like a cheap suit,the list becomes the prototype of the entire web. things look bloody bleak,Ill grant you that.Yet put yourself in their shoes for a sec,we are a bit like a motley bunch of global justice seekers that take over cities and scorn borders,advancing in diversity, we strike in unison. The logic and morality of the state is letting them down,dictatorships so much easier.Where does all the repression and money in the world lead them though? They cant catch every cypherpunk and run down every anarchist.What if we were to start using barter? I do some work for you and accept 10 kudos instead of dollars,our contract calls for stiff defence of all attempts to tax the 'kudo'.Does the 'sweet spot' lie in the rush to provide the state with the means to torture,imprison and enslave? Or withdraw from the powder tainted means of exchange thats turning this place into venus.Paper money should share the same fate as repression,cypherpunks can mark the trail to the promised land,you know theres no other way. Viva HAWALA! From Martin.T.Burkhouse at usdoj.gov Thu Nov 22 01:42:11 2001 From: Martin.T.Burkhouse at usdoj.gov (Burkhouse, Martin T) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 5:42:11 -0400 Subject: Out of Office AutoReply: FREE Jenna Flix Time:3:29:02 AM Message-ID: <"JMD0001-011122094211Z-40511*/PRMD=USDOJ-JCON/ADMD= /C=US/"@MHS> Will return on 11/26. Check with Kevin Deeley at 353-2421 if you need an immediate response From leona_wing at yahoo.com Thu Nov 22 04:37:13 2001 From: leona_wing at yahoo.com (Leona Wing) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 06:37:13 -0600 Subject: memo Message-ID: <200111221237.GAA20704@einstein.ssz.com> Status Alert: .BIZ is NOW LIVE The new .BIZ domain extension was officially launched today, and new registrations are already on a record-setting pace. Several sites have just made .BIZ available to the general public which means that ordinary internet users can register this exciting new domain without the cumbersome paperwork. One such popular site is: http://www.InfoGrab.com Brief History Back in November, 2000, ICANN, the regulatory agency which oversees the Internet's Domain Name System, approved seven new domain extensions to meet growing demand from the consumer and business sectors. Since the new extensions were first announced last year, experts have widely expected .BIZ to become the most popular of the new extensions and to eventually supercede .COM. The .BIZ registry will be managed by upstart NeuLevel, in direct competition with the former monopoly of Network Solutions. .BIZ represents the first new generic domain name to be introduced since .COM was first launched in 1984. In the ten year span between 1984 and 1994, less than one million .COM domains were registered in total. Today, the registration total for .BIZ will have already exceeded one million. How times have changed... The Benefits: .BIZ aims to be the quintessential domain choice for all businesses on the Internet. Short for .BUSINESS, the .BIZ domain directly addresses the growing need for new generic domain names to eventually replace .COM as the Internet most widely used domain name. The benefits to go .BIZ are clear: * abundant availability of easy to remember and practical domain names * technically recognized across the Internet's DNS * short and catchy extension * affordable registration fees and simplified registration procedures "Establishing a .biz domain name also will help companies cut through the .com clutter. More than 28 million .com names have already been registered. Since the .com domain covers so many sites serving so many different purposes, it's impossible to know whether a particular .com address represents a bona-fide business. In contrast, .biz means business, period." Chicago Tribune, August 22, 2001 To register a new .BIZ extension, you will simply need to check the availability of your domain name at: http://www.InfoGrab.com and then register it using the easy 3 step process which takes less than 5 minutes. *************************************************************************** This firm opposes the continued sending of unsolicited email and does not intend to send email to anyone who does not wish to receive their special mailings. As a result, they have retained the services of Auto Email Removal, an independent 3rd party, to administer their list management and removal services (http://www.autoemailremoval.com/cgi-bin/remove.pl?email=cypherpunks at ssz.com). This is not unsolicited email. If you do not wish to receive further mailings, please click this link and your removal request will be honored. The removal administrator can then preclude your email address from future mailings. http://www.autoemailremoval.com/cgi-bin/remove.pl?email=cypherpunks at ssz.com Auto Email Removal Company. Ref# 011105 *************************************************************************** From 100posko at jakarta.wasantara.net.id Wed Nov 21 18:18:12 2001 From: 100posko at jakarta.wasantara.net.id (100posko) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:18:12 +0700 Subject: remove In-Reply-To: 1006275884023@qarbon.com Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011122091759.00a89a00@jakarta.wasantara.net.id> At 09:04 AM 11/20/2001 -0700, you wrote: >cypherpunks at toad.com From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 22 09:22:01 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:22:01 -0800 Subject: The Crypto-Financial Paradox In-Reply-To: References: <20011120205716.B14158@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3BFCC3B9.19852.3A33DC@localhost> -- On 21 Nov 2001, at 2:02, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > This is nothing new for long-time subscribers to this list. > As Eric Hughes kept saying when I first got here in 1994, > it is immediate and final settlement that attracts the > capital and payment system markets to cryptographic > protocols like Chaum's blind signatures, and not > particularly anonymity. People want immediate and final settlement when purchasing rights over assets. They do not want immediate and final settlement when purchasing services, or goods that must be physically delivered. Rather, for physical delivery, they want the final settlement to be as closely tied to actual delivery as possible --they want the arbitration provided by the credit card companies. > So, as has ever been the case, whoever builds a robust, > instantly-settled, identity-independent, > internet-ubiquitous transaction mechanism that actually > works in production for assets people want to trade in > large quantity is going to do quite well for themselves by > saving the entire economy a whole lot of money In such a system, the digital certificates must ultimately reflect control over assets, in other words they must be functionally equivalent to bearer bonds and, more importantly, bearer shares. Needless to say, bearer shares are illegal almost everywhere. Any system that does what you describe must be located in a haven, and will be met by great wrath. Often repressive countries, notably Ireland and China, offer very free market conditions to foreign investors, while keeping the assets of their own nationals under rigid control. In this situation nationals furtively export their capital, then reimport their capital under the appearance of being foreign capital. Havens are used to launder this capital, and bearer shares and similar mechanisms are used by the nationals to keep control over this seemingly foreign capital. Thus even if the system you describe is simply a more efficient settlement system, it is also a system that will immediately enable large numbers of people to illegally escape repressive controls on capital. Thus just as any genuinely privacy protecting micropayment system will promptly be used to pay for child pornography, any genuinely efficient assets trading mechanism will immediately be used to escape governmental controls, and is already illegal on that basis. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG /HCJqlSn3M4Klt9t8tiB0gTVB2FE73axuvLxehHY 41FYMJp89a/coN4Ux+WrfrKr0lti8BSoMRE2htbET From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 22 09:22:01 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:22:01 -0800 Subject: The Crypto-Financial Paradox In-Reply-To: <20011121232614.A7070@atreides.havenco.com> Message-ID: <3BFCC3B9.1216.3A33AA@localhost> -- On 21 Nov 2001, at 23:26, Ryan Lackey wrote: > Bob Hettinga wrote: > > > Quoting "Blanc ": > > > > But sometimes it seems like it will be a Cold Day in > > > Hell before that happens. > > > > (Ryan, would you make this your next project? > > > We'd all appreciate it *ever* so much.) > > I think I've figured out why ecash hasn't been deployed. > > 1) "Math is hard! Let's go shopping!" 2) Yet, ecash can be > used for shopping. > > The resulting paradox has rendered ecash a logical > impossibility :) > > > Not to un-swash his buckle, and all that, because he > > really deserves massive kudos for what he's done with > > HavenCo., but Ryan's already tried that, once before, on > > Anguilla, if we all remember, and it wasn't at all pretty > > (cf. Declan's articles earlier this year about the > > E-Gold/Systemics pissing contest). > > Twice, actually, if you count HINDE. I never understood what went wrong in those plans -- I just saw people flaming each other and tuned out -- the cloud of misinformation was sufficient that I did missed the information, or neglected to separate it from the misinformation. I carefully followed the failure of Mark Twain digicash, and understood why that failed. Why did the various other attempts fail? I recollect that when I checked various web pages, the software, in my humble opinion, simply sucked mightily -- unacceptable user interface, so I perceived simple technical failure, or perhaps the software was never completed to the state that people optimistically described it as achieving. The flame war suggests some human failure that I failed to comprehend, which may have resulted in the technical failure, or failure to complete the software Or perhaps the technical failure led to human failure, as people blamed each other rather than fixing it? --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG VZfEAPd3JcUJAdj7inlviZSSoz5KRZ/F+fa6LBh 4042Nz6KXh4xXSnju8GOgAAZfnBTfQujGZc9uxsSt From cyrberoutrevesx at free.fr Thu Nov 22 00:24:31 2001 From: cyrberoutrevesx at free.fr (nathalie) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:24:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: publicite pour adultes:revesx Message-ID: <200111220824.fAM8OVw05275@brinstar.nerim.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5755 bytes Desc: not available URL: From road at tradeforce.com Thu Nov 22 06:29:00 2001 From: road at tradeforce.com (road) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:29:00 -0500 Subject: 99 Message-ID: From schear at lvcm.com Thu Nov 22 09:38:35 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:38:35 -0800 Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011122093557.0477c008@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:06 AM 11/22/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Time Magazine, November 26, 2001: > >Denning's pioneering a new field she calls geo-encryption. >Working with industry, Denning has developed a way to keep >information undecipherable until it reaches its location, as >determined by GPS satellites. Move studios, for example, >have been afraid to release films digitally for the same reasons >record companies hate Napster: once loose on the Internet, >there's little to stop someone from posting the latest blockbuster >DVD on the Web for all to see and download. With Denning's >system, however, only subscribers in specified locations -- >such as movie theaters -- would be able to unscramble the >data. The technology works as well for national security >as it does for Harry Potter. Coded messages that the State >Department sends to its embassies, for example, could only >be deciphered in the embassy buildings themselves, greatly >reducing the risk of interception. > >For now, Denning says, terrorists "may want to bring down >the power grid or the finance system, but it's still easier to >blow up a building." If she's right, it's due in large part to her. I believe several patents have been filed for something along this line (e.g. tamper resistant GPS-smart cards). Mostly to enable casino to satisfy state regulators that their clients are in permitted geographic locales. steve From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 22 09:52:49 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:52:49 -0800 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <4EA8739A-DECE-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <3BFCCAF1.2092.566762@localhost> -- On 21 Nov 2001, at 16:37, Blanc wrote: > But what I anticipate would happen at that point is another > Afghanistan, with ten thousand bloomin' territories full of > prickly warring tribes and war lords. > > The first thing which happens after a power vaccuum is > created is that another group steps in to "establish law > and order", with the acceptance, support, and relief of the > majority (coincidentally, right now it feels like the > Taliban is growing on these shores). > > History repeats itself. What would prevent it from doing > so again? Untrue: The Taliban was not a spontaneous internal phenomemom, not a response to an outcry for law and order. There were repeated, massive, and bloody efforts by foreign powers, primarily Pakistan, to "assist" the aghans in achieving law and order, and the Taliban is only the most recent, and most bloody, of these. Far from reflecting a spontaneous desire for government, law and order, these various wannabe governments found it necessary to devastate and depopulate vast areas that they were unable to govern. The Taliban was only able to achieve "law and order" with massive external support, and an ever increasing number of foreign troops backing it up. The foreigners would first back one group to form a government, and that group would fail catastrophically with enormous bloodshed, then they would back another group, and that group would in turn fail catastrophically with vast bloodshed, huge areas devastated by scorched earth policies where they killed everyone who did not flee, then bulldozed the houses, dynamited the wells, filled in the irrigation ditches, attempting to make any area they could not govern an utterly barren wasteland where nothing would grow and no one would live, and then finally, after two very bloody tries, the foreigners attempting to create a government backed the Taliban on their third try. As we speak, the British and American governments are quarreling because the British want to have another go, a fourth try. Each try has been bloodier, and more devastating, than the last. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG cRg7JGoYdXPyChmZe2SAQnElDNwHyGBzITWPWrrs 4kii0RA8WhRGusD3fban6iTFdm3wenZpwBbqGP7IE From mean-green at hushmail.com Thu Nov 22 09:58:37 2001 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:58:37 -0800 Subject: Jamming technology blocks cell phone rings Message-ID: <200111221758.fAMHwbw63852@mailserver1.hushmail.com> [I've played around with an expensive version from another vendor. It appeared to function (my dual mode CDMA PCS phone quickly became inopperative). Range was limited due to low power output (about 12wm). The circuits are very simple and the addition of an inexpensive 10-12db power amp stage for both the 1900 and 800 MHz bands would extend effective ranges to 50m or so. This is a good candidate for anonymous cash sale. It could become the next teen gota have prank product (the laser pointer "dotting" thing is about played out.)] Jamming technology blocks cell phone rings By Reuters November 21, 2001, 10:00 a.m. PT HONG KONG--A Hong Kong company hopes to sell signal jamming technology, previously used by the military to thwart lethal missiles, to block annoying cell phone calls in places such as hospitals, places of worship and restaurants. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-7942522.html?tag=lh From adam at homeport.org Thu Nov 22 07:44:17 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 10:44:17 -0500 Subject: why market to Joe Sixpack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011122104417.A9452@weathership.homeport.org> On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 11:51:04PM -0500, dmolnar wrote: | Declan's comment on operating a physical remailer for suitably valuable | cargo, plus some of Tim's recent comments about integration, made me think | of the question in the subject line. So far I see at least three possible | answers. | | 1) Make lots of money. | | 2) Spread awareness (that "funny feeling in the stomach" recently | discussed) and save our fellow man. Make the world safe for privacy. | | 3) Ensure that cryptography and privacy-enhancing technologies have uses | besides "Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse," so that they aren't banned. | | anything else? Ensure that the anonymity set is large enough to make analysis hard. With small sets, you lose to simple correlation attacks. (For example, Alice sent messages to the MIX at these times; Bob got messages at these times. That Alice operates a node is scant protection, it simply means that some set of messages come out uncorrelated with input, and are thus correlated to one of the 40-odd remailer operators.) To Sandy's point about costs, yes, its nice for the stuff to be cheap to use, but Tim is right that people fly to Geneva to get privacy. (There's a recurring story that the Mass state police used to drive up to the cheaper New Hampshire state liquor store on the border to note plate numbers of people driving north to save on the rediculous direct and indirect taxes that Mass puts on booze, until such time as the NH state police arrested them for loitering. Do IRS agents loiter in certain airports? A large anonymity set is your friend, and is almost always necessary, but not sufficient.) Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From roy at scytale.com Thu Nov 22 09:05:01 2001 From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:05:01 -0600 Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BFCDBDD.13373.27A012@localhost> On 22 Nov 2001, at 11:06, John Young wrote: > Time Magazine, November 26, 2001: > > Denning's pioneering a new field she calls geo-encryption. > Working with industry, Denning has developed a way to keep > information undecipherable until it reaches its location, as > determined by GPS satellites. Using a GPS coordinate set as keying material? Hope it's just additional keying material. Knowing the intended destination of something like a movie in transit to a theater seems pretty easy, and the set of GPS coordinates encompassing your average multiplex would seem to be pretty small compared to the usual keyspaces discussed here. -- Roy M. Silvernail [ ] roy at scytale.com DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division PGP Key 0x1AF39331 : 71D5 2EA2 4C27 D569 D96B BD40 D926 C05E Key available from pubkey at scytale.com I charge to process unsolicited commercial email From jya at pipeline.com Thu Nov 22 11:06:21 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:06:21 -0800 Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto Message-ID: Time Magazine, November 26, 2001: Denning's pioneering a new field she calls geo-encryption. Working with industry, Denning has developed a way to keep information undecipherable until it reaches its location, as determined by GPS satellites. Move studios, for example, have been afraid to release films digitally for the same reasons record companies hate Napster: once loose on the Internet, there's little to stop someone from posting the latest blockbuster DVD on the Web for all to see and download. With Denning's system, however, only subscribers in specified locations -- such as movie theaters -- would be able to unscramble the data. The technology works as well for national security as it does for Harry Potter. Coded messages that the State Department sends to its embassies, for example, could only be deciphered in the embassy buildings themselves, greatly reducing the risk of interception. For now, Denning says, terrorists "may want to bring down the power grid or the finance system, but it's still easier to blow up a building." If she's right, it's due in large part to her. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 22 11:15:24 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:15:24 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20011117174902.007b37b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011122111524.007fa180@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:46 PM 11/21/01 -0800, Petro wrote: > > Not necessarily. It is argued both that Libertarians are >chicken-shit anarchists (afraid to take the last step) or that >Anarchists are just extreme Libertarians. Only teenagers and similar posers would make that mistake. (Not necess meaning you) Let them ask mom for a marker so they can scribble a circle-A somewhere... after doing their homework. > Also, keep in mind that there are many "anarchist" philosophies, in >fact almost as many as there are anarchists, and all of them (well most >of them) have rules or laws. "While acknowledging himself an Anarchist, he does not state to what branch of the organization he belongs" ---Discussing Leon Czolgosz' shooting of President William McKinley > No. Libertarians are for "free markets", which are inherently >capitalistic in nature, but the reverse is not true. There are many >*wealthy* capitalists who are all for strongly regulated markets and >high barriers to entry. One could argue that they are not Capitalists. Those are philosophical parasites. Like a congressvermin who campaigns on liberty and once in office destroys it. But in the other direction, yes, libs are obligate laissez faire which implies they accept that the universe encourages capitalism. >> 3. nonsensical --cryptography is a neutral technology with debatable >> social consequences > > The "Crypto-" part of "Crypto-Anarchist" may in fact have nothing >at all to do with cryptography. Not in the context of this list. >> 4. one poster's label; and anyone can post here >> Your milage may vary. > > Not by much. It's almost always between 48 and 51 MPG. If you think the quality of posts here varies so little, well, ignorance is bliss :-) From adam at homeport.org Thu Nov 22 08:16:15 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:16:15 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <29FDF574-DD26-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> References: <20011119132940.A7094@weathership.homeport.org> <29FDF574-DD26-11D5-8C41-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: <20011122111615.B9452@weathership.homeport.org> On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:46:45AM -0800, Tim May wrote: | On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 10:29 AM, Adam Shostack wrote: | > | 6. The failure to get true digital money. Call it what you like, | > | "digital cash" or "ecash" or even one of Hettinga's pet names, but the | > | fact is that for both political and technical reasons we don't have | > | digital cash. This has ripple effects for nearly all of the constructs | > [...] | > | This failure to get workable untraceable digital cash (true 2-way | > | untraceable, not the bastardized, banker-friendly, government-friendly | > | one-way untraceable form) is the _deep_ reason things are stagnating. | > | > Sad as it makes me, I don't know of any system which allows 2-way | > untracability and fraud prevention. Can you point me to one? With | > trustworthy reputation systems, you might be able to get away from | > this problem. I don't know of any reputation system that I'd trust | > for a multi-hundred dollar transaction today. | | | Doesn't the Barnes/Goldberg "moneychanging" protocol effectively | symmetrize the untraceability? Yes. I think there are reasonably simple, and unblockable ways to make 2-way untracable any "open" ecash system, where, like cash, everyone is a merchant. But not that I said untracability and fraud prevention, and its really the latter half that I think is hard to solve. | There are issues of one party receiving part or all of the items being | transferred and then burning the other party. And if the items, whether | ecash or software or whatever, require later authorization/turn on to | complete the transaction, there are further burning opportunities. (Note | that this is not a problem unique to digital cash. There are always | prospects for a merchant taking the money and then saying "Bye," or "I | already gave you the stuff." Or delivering defective products. This is a | kind of "handover deadlock" which, nonetheless, has not halted commerce | of various kinds. Even at flea markets, where the sellers and buyers are | largely anonymous. I realize that digital commerce systems have higher | requirements, for the same (basic ontology of the world) reasons that | security flaws in digital systems may be exploited far more rapidly and | devastatingly than, for example, a security flaw at my house.) This is the risk; we disagree on the solution. Buyers and sellers at flea markets are not untracable or unlinkable in the sense that is possible with a MIX. If I give you money at a flea market, I can stand there and yell and scream if you then don't give me the goods. Its hard to abandon your table of stuff and flee if you don't want to settle. Thats not the case with a bi-directional, fully anonymous market. | My _intuition_ is that an ecology of agents each exchanging digital | money, even if the system in only uni-directionally untraceable, with | "anyone a mint," goes a long way toward solving the problem. Squares the | circle, so to speak. Throw in escrow agents and intermediate holders, | bonded with nyms, and I see no particular reason why two-way | untraceability is not feasible. I'm very fond of market solutions for problems. When dealing with money, the fundamental things that you can trade are liquidity and risk. Banks loan money and accept a risk of non-payment. They set their interest rates such that, having spent time evaluating the risk, they expect to make money. (Dan Geer wrote a nice essay on this subject for a talk at DCSB in November 98). Banks use a multitude of methods to control and manage risks, and at the end of most of those methods is that, with sufficient energy, you can track down a person or legal entity to get a refund of your payments. Thats not generally how they work; usually they try up front to ensure that the inbound money is good, via tools like certified transfers and letters of introduction and credit, etc. (Frank Abagnale exploited this, and tells his story in the enjoyable and worthwhile "Catch me if you can.") Over time, or with collateral, a bank will loan you money. Some will loan you money sight unseen, based on a risk calculation. But back to ecash. Who will assume risk for an anonymous merchant? (No one needs to assume risk on the withdrawl; in all systems, you withdraw from an account, and in the good systems, blind the coins so the bank doesn't know what coins came from what account. The bank can decide if its going to let you get valid coins.) The risk is not that the merchant is getting bad money; thats controllable; the risk is that the merchant is not delivering the goods. Given the merchants ability to completely disappear, who can sensibly offer a risk guarantee? There are ways that someone might be able to offer a guarantee; for example, require that the merchant post a bond. However, that doesn't work; complete anonymity incurs delays and bandwidth costs, and it will be possible to scale an attack such that the merchant walks off with more than the value of the bond. Now, the people who understand this best are the ones that Chaum chased and Hettinga just spent so much time with. They get that they want to be able to manage risk; its what they do, and they can't do that with two-way untracable money. So, does that means it is not possible to have anonymous merchants? Well, that depends what you mean by anonymous. If you mean the sort of complete anonymity that Chaum showed was possible, I don't think that it can be deployed. If you mean that your merchant takes his cash through traditional privacy measures like a private bank on Vanuatu, then sure. However, thats not what I think you were asking for. How different are these? In normal practice, I don't think they're substantially different. There's a different level of trust to be placed in laws and tellers, and that makes many people uncomfortable as we see those laws bend and break. However, it makes others, the bankers, very comfortable, that they have a risk management strategy that they can construct. They can chase the company, its bank, or the beneficial owners in various combinations in the event of fraud. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From declan at well.com Thu Nov 22 08:19:01 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:19:01 -0500 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <20011121211611.C1984@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011122095849.0230b1a0@mail.well.com> Nobody is saying that free expression includes inciting a riot or soliciting murder. But it does generally include the right to write a book (and read it) without being targeted by the government. What you wrote that raised eyebrows was this: >I sure hope that the government is investigating and following each and every >person who buys a copy of this book... I wonder if there's a way to force >Tobiason to foot the bill for that security? There are plenty of books I can think of -- almost all of the Loompanics catalog -- that would fret some government official. David Burnham's books on the IRS and DOJ abuses of power are another. But I hardly think it's consistent with the First Amendment to investigate the people who buy them, or make the authors pay "protection money" for the privilege of publishing. Then you wrote in the message below: >How many sets of these "terrorism cookbooks" do you let fall >into the hands of psychotics? We already don't sell guns to convicted >felons... > gee, that sounds to me like "prior restraint"... or do you think THAT's > wrong, >too? There are some things that are so terrible that you simply can't wait to >prosecute or criminalize until AFTER the fact of their happening. My translation of that is "we must require background checks on people who buy books, newspapers, or magazines" that some FBI officials dislike. (I look forward to seeing how you'll extend this to the Internet. AdultCheck, anyone? How about posts on the cypherpunks list or other fora that include more scientific or technical information than you feel comfortable with?) My translation of your last sentence is "we must criminalize the publication of certain technical or scientific information just because some bad people may get their hands on it." Comparing background checks for gun purchasers (in an approving way) to background checks to books is just nutty. Now do you see why your post is so at odds with the principles of a free society? If not, I'm not sure you're educable on this issue. -Declan At 02:33 AM 11/22/2001 -0600, gep2 at terabites.com wrote: >On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >Clearly "gep2" does not understand principles of free expression > >and limited government. A shame. > >I understand free expression and limited government just fine. > >Free expression does not include shouting "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre, >and it >also doesn't include inciting a riot or soliciting murder. > >Unfortunately, there are plenty of lunatics and crazies in our society, >and you >simply can't let those types of people have their finger on the nuclear >button >(it's bad enough when our _President_ [especially THIS one] can do that). > >Some suicidal maniac or manic depressive (or even just mean drunk) could >easily >just get pissed off and decide to take 100,000 or a million or something >other >people out with him... we've had situations like that (snipers from the >tower at >UT Austin, dispondent students in high schools, Timother McVeigh, and so >forth... fortunately limited by their technical capability to kill on a >MASSIVE >scale.) > >It's bad enough when someone like Osama bin Laden kills several thousands of >people with hijacked airliners. (At least there, there IS a response >possible... for better or for worse... as we've seen). > >It's quite another matter when some maniac commits suicide and takes half a >million or a million other people out with him. (And how do you respond >THEN? >Presuming here that you're talking about some right-wing wacko (American >citizen!) who's already now dead? Does the government just say, "Gee, isn't >that just awful!"? Or you do something to try to prevent it from happening >BEFORE it does?) > >And if it DID happen... do you sit back and let some copycat then do it >again? >And another do it AGAIN? How many times do you just sit back and wring your >hands in despair? How many sets of these "terrorism cookbooks" do you let >fall >into the hands of psychotics? We already don't sell guns to convicted >felons... > gee, that sounds to me like "prior restraint"... or do you think THAT's > wrong, >too? > >There are some things that are so terrible that you simply can't wait to >prosecute or criminalize until AFTER the fact of their happening. > >Gordon Peterson http://personal.terabites.com/ >Support the Anti-SPAM Amendment! Join at http://www.cauce.org/ >12/19/98: Partisan Republicans scornfully ignore the voters they "represent". >12/09/00: the date the Republican Party took down democracy in America. From blancw at cnw.com Thu Nov 22 11:32:38 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:32:38 -0800 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3BFCCAF1.2092.566762@localhost> Message-ID: From: jamesd :The Taliban was not a spontaneous internal phenomemom, not a :response to an outcry for law and order. There were :repeated, massive, and bloody efforts by foreign powers, :primarily Pakistan, to "assist" the aghans in achieving law :and order, and the Taliban is only the most recent, and most :bloody, of these. : :Far from reflecting a spontaneous desire for government, law :and order, these various wannabe governments found it :necessary to devastate and depopulate vast areas that they :were unable to govern. ---------------------- Well, of course I was speaking metaphorically, drawing a parallel with having a tyrannical, repressive group "governing" a population - regardless of how that group came into their position. And of course, it must be distinguished between what those who fight to be in positions of power imagine for themselves vs what those who will be subjected to that power, imagine when they consider it. And it must be distinguished between what people in the U.S. (or in the 'free world') imagine when they wish for law and order, vs what a religious, fundamentalist group will imagine. As libertarian/anarchistic types are aware, what people want when they call for the establishment, or re-establishment, of 'law and order', is a return to a definite situation where they can calculate the causes & effects of human actions more predictably, with fewer nasty surprises, less uncertainty in the outcome, greater expectations of positive and pleasant interaction with others, and no intrusions into their monotony (joke). This doesn't necessarily mean that they spontaneously want a government, but that they want the activities of life to proceed in a "governed" manner (and they never expect that it will be themselves who will be among the governed - only the bad guys will be caused to suffer it). Having an institution called "government" is the only thing that most can imagine in order to achieve and maintain such a situation. (As we know, the problem with these governing institutions is that, instead of exercising a control over error, all liberty of action is reigned in, to eliminate any kind of disturbance which they are unable to deal with, given their scope of comprehension and competence). .. Blanc From jya at pipeline.com Thu Nov 22 11:35:44 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:35:44 -0800 Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Google shows one "geo-encryption" patented by CoinCard, which may or may not be a component of Denning's geo-crypto. Because CoinCard is a Canadian company, its geo-encryption may have nothing to do with Denning's. CoinCard uses a system composed of a swipe card and passive card reader to decrypt, described in a programmers' manual: http://www.coincard.com/download/ProgrammerManual.pdf It looks as though these readers could be rigged for GPS transceiving to assure that encrypted data was physically located where intended by the sender, and/or the recipient's card could be programmed to be read only by that card reader. Is this a novel system? How to spoof GPS location? Can bin Laden be in several caves around the world each equipped with a personal-ID GPS passive transceiver? Do caves serve as acoustic resonators to emit recorded whispers up ventilating shafts? What underling was wearing Rumfeld's personal tracker on 9/11? Why was the SecDef frantically trying to recover it before Mrs. Rumfeld's private investigators? And his secondary tracker? From pcw2 at flyzone.com Thu Nov 22 09:23:29 2001 From: pcw2 at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:23:29 -0500 Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200111221723.fAMHNa903135@slack.lne.com> At 11:06 AM -0800 11/22/01, John Young wrote: >Time Magazine, November 26, 2001: This is a fascinating idea, but problematic. The simplest approach is easy to spoof. Let's say that you encrypt the data with the GPS coordinates X. The software takes GPS coordinates from a GPS receiver and tries to decrypt the data using these coordinates. Only someone at the right place would be able to figure it out. Naturally, this could be spoofed by replacing the GPS receiver with one that spits out the right coordinates. A better system might rely upon the signals from the satellites themselves. The signals let the GPS receiver measure the time the signal took to travel from the satellite to the receiver. Knowing the distance from three or more satellites makes it possible to triangulate and come up with the real location. A more sophisticated system would encrypt the data with these signals themselves. It might take the data coming from satellites 1,2 and 3 at one particular instant. Only a person in the right location would see the right values at that particular instant. But I think this could be spoofed by time shifting the signals using a TIVO-like mechanism. If you're not in the right location you could pretend to be in another. Maybe they have a more complicated mechanism. Or maybe this is just FUD. -Peter > >Denning's pioneering a new field she calls geo-encryption. >Working with industry, Denning has developed a way to keep >information undecipherable until it reaches its location, as >determined by GPS satellites. Move studios, for example, >have been afraid to release films digitally for the same reasons >record companies hate Napster: once loose on the Internet, >there's little to stop someone from posting the latest blockbuster >DVD on the Web for all to see and download. With Denning's >system, however, only subscribers in specified locations -- >such as movie theaters -- would be able to unscramble the >data. The technology works as well for national security >as it does for Harry Potter. Coded messages that the State >Department sends to its embassies, for example, could only >be deciphered in the embassy buildings themselves, greatly >reducing the risk of interception. > >For now, Denning says, terrorists "may want to bring down >the power grid or the finance system, but it's still easier to >blow up a building." If she's right, it's due in large part to her. From mch at informationanarchy.org Thu Nov 22 12:36:05 2001 From: mch at informationanarchy.org (Mark Henderson) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:36:05 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: ; from petro@bounty.org on Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 08:46:18PM -0800 References: <3.0.6.32.20011117174902.007b37b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20011122123605.A12106@informationanarchy.org> On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 08:46:18PM -0800, Petro wrote: > Not necessarily. It is argued both that Libertarians are > chicken-shit anarchists (afraid to take the last step) or that > Anarchists are just extreme Libertarians. As far as I can tell most libertarians are in favour of an unfettered free market. People who label themselves as anarchists tend to be anti-capitalist. --- Mark Henderson, mch at squirrel.com, mch at informationanarchy.org "Heilir æsir. Heilar ásynjur. Heil sjá in fjölnýta fold." - Sigrdrífumál OpenPGP/GnuPG keys available at http://www.squirrel.com/pgpkeys.asc From gep2 at terabites.com Thu Nov 22 10:44:21 2001 From: gep2 at terabites.com (gep2 at terabites.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:44:21 -0600 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011122095849.0230b1a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Nobody is saying that free expression includes inciting a riot or >soliciting murder. But it does generally include the right to write a book >(and read it) without being targeted by the government. MY translation of what YOU are saying is that when a student learning to fly a commercial Boeing airliner tells his flight instructor that he doesn't need to learn how to take off or land, but only how to fly it in the air, that we ought to say (the flight instructor, and society in general) "Oh, that's cool, I guess," and not report it as suspicious. Sorry, I don't agree. >What you wrote that raised eyebrows was this: >>I sure hope that the government is investigating and following each and every >>person who buys a copy of this book... I wonder if there's a way to force >>Tobiason to foot the bill for that security? >There are plenty of books I can think of -- almost all of the Loompanics >catalog -- that would fret some government official. David Burnham's books >on the IRS and DOJ abuses of power are another. There's a huge difference between a book that blows the whistle on government misdoings and abuses versus a book that gives a detailed recipe on how some disgruntled lunatic with $10 in their pocket can kill tens of thousands, maybe even millions, of other people "from your basement, in your spare time". ESPECIALLY when that book discusses (and presumably encourages) the distribution of anthrax and other home-cultured lethal pathogens by letters in the mail, and in light of recent events bearing a striking similarity to that, I think it's obvious that people who bought this guy's book or CD are certainly at least among the list of prime suspects. (And I'd think that it simply makes sense to investigate, and monitor the activities of the rest of the purchasers to try to uncover if they're just "curious" as an academically interesting subject, or to see if they have a more sinister purpose.) Obviously we as a nation were largely blindsided by the September 11th disaster, and we've been roundly criticized due to the obvious failure of intelligence to see this coming and head it off somehow. While we can't ALWAYS achieve that, it's clear that we need to do better in that area. There's plenty of other things that "ordinary" folk simply don't have much need to buy and own. [very-]Large-denomination currency, perhaps. Nuclear weapons. High explosives and blasting caps. Shoulder-launced antiaircraft missiles. I'm sure you can think of others. I'd put anthrax and other biological or chemical weapons into that category, too. I'd hope that anyone buying (or attempting to buy) such stuff would at least slightly raise an eyebrow on the part of SOMEONE charged with helping to maintain a society that's safe to live in. It's clearly NOT enough to only monitor such things on the part of madmen like Saddam Hussein... clearly, we have crazy people right here in the United States, too. They're no less in need of at least some oversight to make sure that they don't go off the deep end and endanger as much as an entire city (or possibly even worse). >But I hardly think it's >consistent with the First Amendment to investigate the people who buy them, >or make the authors pay "protection money" for the privilege of publishing. It's hardly reasonable for taxpayers as a whole to have to pay the high costs of security that are created by an irresponsible individual who is creating a very dangerous situation just to earn a few fistfulls of dollars (and to quite purposefully create that danger). When someone creates a highly dangerous condition that results in heavy costs to someone else (whether to correct the problem, or even to protect themselves against the possible problem) then courts have traditionally found that the damaged party has a civil claim against the person creating that hazard. Again, the First Amendment has its limits. If some organization were to publish a "you can build it at home in your spare time" cookbook recipe of how to create an innovative sort of nuclear weapon capable of destroying a large city, I'd expect for the government to step in and prevent its publication and sale... purely as a matter of national security. Now THERE, it's true that getting "enough" nuclear fuel is nontrivial, but in the case of biological (and even some chemical) weapons, the potential for actual (and not just imagined) mischief is far greater, and the harm that could be done is far too high to dismiss as being simply hypothetical until after the fact. The idea that this nitwit is "only just" publishing this kind of material and not HIMSELF committing the resulting crimes (and it could WELL be that the anthrax attacks already seen here are the work of one or more of his customers) and that he therefore should be allowed to continue these sales unimpeded and unmonitored is rather like saying that Osama bin Laden is only running terrorism training camps, producing snazzy recruitment videos, publishing terrorism handbooks and providing other logistical support but that nothing he's done has actually CAUSED anybody to go out and commit these horrible atrocities. Again, sorry, I don't agree. Just as very few Americans (in fact I suspect this is true for most of the world) will shed great tears when ObL is captured or killed, I think that few of them will be very upset when this guy selling "murder millions of your fellow citizens" cookbooks is eliminated. >Then you wrote in the message below: >>How many sets of these "terrorism cookbooks" do you let fall >>into the hands of psychotics? We already don't sell guns to convicted >>felons... >> gee, that sounds to me like "prior restraint"... or do you think THAT's >> wrong, >>too? There are some things that are so terrible that you simply can't wait to >>prosecute or criminalize until AFTER the fact of their happening. >My translation of that is "we must require background checks on people who >buy books, newspapers, or magazines" that some FBI officials dislike. No. (That's not a very good translation! In fact it's OUTRAGEOUSLY poor.) It's not an issue of "dislike". Political dissent MUST be allowed. Even civil disobedience is probably a legitimate form of protest. Putting (quite literally) the lives of perhaps even MILLIONS of Americans at serious risk of being murdered by some disgruntled sociopath is in a totally different category altogether. >(I look forward to seeing how you'll extend this to the Internet. AdultCheck, >anyone? Sexuality and "illicit" orgasms are a victimless crime. I don't think that the government should be in the business of prosecuting "crimes" where there are no (and aren't likely to be any, either) victims. The government should not be in the morality business. >How about posts on the cypherpunks list or other fora that include >more scientific or technical information than you feel comfortable with?) Depends on the nature of the information. Ultimately, it will probably require a judge or jury or some such to make the call. Yeah, that's a slippery slope. Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that it's a dangerous time that we find ourselves in since September 11th. The sentiment of the public is that we have to do more to ensure the safety of our homes and lives, even if the result is the loss of some of our once-cherished personal freedoms. We can only hope that the requisite level of safety can be achieved with minimum harm to our freedoms. I think it's ironic (and fairly stupid) that some of those who are pissing and moaning the most about the government having abused them are going to be those doing the most to INCREASE the degree and probability of government oppressiveness. :-( That's just STUPID, although nobody accused these guys of being smart. >My translation of your last sentence is "we must criminalize the >publication of certain technical or scientific information just because >some bad people may get their hands on it." Again, a very poor translation. First, I didn't say that "publication of...information" was one of those "some things [that are] just so terrible...". Discovery of (for example) a suitcase-sized nuclear weapon in some lunatic's apartment in Manhattan would be one of those things where I think one could reasonably argue that they ought to be locked up and the key thrown away... I don't think we should wait until the bomb were exploded to consider the danger [or act] unacceptable. Discovery of a fermenting vat and a breeding quantity of live anthrax bacteria (or smallpox, for that matter, or sarin gas, or other chemical or biological weapons) in someone's garage is probably another one of those cases where mere POSSESSION ought to be enough to result in criminal prosecution and incarceration. And this isn't really a new bit of legislation... mere possession of distribution-sized quantities of crack is already illegal, simply because one can only presume that the INTENTION is there to distribute it. (Likewise, bringing a boatload of marijuana into a US port under cover of darkness is illegal, because it's safe enough to presume that it's not because they want to build a bonfire on the beach with it...) A better example of the type of thing Declan is talking about would be the possession of something that is INFORMATION ALONE (such as certain types of pornographic material, perhaps) where there is no victim (e.g. drawings or computer-generated images, where one can't even make the farfetched argument about the model having been abused or exploited). I think that it's absurd for the government to try to legislate morality, especially when it's religious-based issues like personal sexuality. It's especially outrageous when the government attempts to criminalize UNWITTING AND UNKNOWN possession. Let's say, for example, that you buy a copy of the Sunday New York Times from a vending machine on the sidewalk. Unknown to you, a prior customer at the same newspaper vending machine slipped a pornographic image of a child into the Real Estate section (which you never open or read) of the copy you purchased. Later that evening, law enforcement agents enter your home with a search warrant, find the pornographic image hidden in your newspaper, and cart you off to jail for "possession". Alternatively, you're prowling around the Net and tell your newsreader software to download several thousand pictures from a busy newsgroup. You look at some of them the next morning, but don't view them all. Unknown to you, one of the images you inadvertently downloaded was an offtopic pornographic image of a child posted to that newgroup by an obnoxious spammer. Theoretically, you're now a felon and sex offender because you are in possession of an image you're not allowed to have, even if you have no idea whatsoever that you have it. Anyhow, I think THAT IS WRONG. (See, I'm really a strong civil libertarian...) >Comparing background checks for >gun purchasers (in an approving way) to background checks to books is just >nutty. I'm perhaps less concerned about "background checks" before the sale of terrorism training manuals (*and the like*) than I am with just trying to figure out whether the persons buying stuff like that are truly just curious, or if they constitute a clear and present danger to the citizens of the country. It created something of an outrage when the FBI admitted during the government hearings that (even several weeks after the anthrax attacks) they had no clue about how many, or which, labs in the USA had access to and were working with anthrax. I'd think that, at the very least, when they're investigating this particular issue they'd look at this guy's customers as among the list of prime suspects (and in order to do that, they need some kind of audit trail.) >Now do you see why your post is so at odds with the principles of a free >society? If not, I'm not sure you're educable on this issue. Clearly we're going to lose some of our freedoms. :-((( I just hope that those losses can be minimized. Meanwhile, it's bastards like this guy selling these terrorism training manuals who are ultimately more part of the problem than they are part of the solution. Gordon Peterson http://personal.terabites.com/ Support the Anti-SPAM Amendment! Join at http://www.cauce.org/ 12/19/98: Partisan Republicans scornfully ignore the voters they "represent". 12/09/00: the date the Republican Party took down democracy in America. From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 22 13:17:44 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 13:17:44 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111182153.QAA15610@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <5EB8CF1E-DF8E-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Sunday, November 18, 2001, at 01:53 PM, Faustine wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > Faustine wrote: > Tim wrote: >> Getting away fron digital cash for a moment, If you'd care to point me >> to any examples of crypto companies really focused and committed to >> developing >> applications that are commercially appealing to Joe Sixpack AOLuser, >> I'd be interested to hear about them. >>> SSL/RSA built into every financial transaction with the common >>> browsers. >>> Visit Amazon, Ebay, etc., and note the secure connections. >>> User-transpaperent, of course, but then, of course, this is precisely >>> what a "Joe Sixpack AOLuser" [SIC] application _must_ be. > You know as well as I do that the real push for improving transaction > security > is coming from commercial interests, not demand by the average user. Really? When was the last time you worked a Customer Support line for a web site that did CC transactions? End users care about, and insist on security. They don't know JS about it, they don't begin to understand it, but they "know" that 128 bit SSL is better than 40bit, and they know that it "keeps hackers away from their credit cards". >> Is it really such a stretch to say that most >> people in the crypto community don't really give a damn about Joe wants >> or needs? How many times have you heard people here implicitly echo the >> sentiment: "If they're too lazy or stupid to get it, then screw em." >>> Well, you are the one using the expression "Joe Sixpack AOLuser." >>> As for me, I'm a neo-Calvinist Nietzscheian. It is of little concern >>> to >>> me whether crypto is dumbed-down to the point where Mr. Rogers uses >>> it. > I'm a neo-Schopenhauerian Cynic-Stoic eudaimonist. Which is entirely > beside the > point that if you or I were trying to _make money_ selling crypto > directly to > average home users, we certainly ought to put some real effort into > hiring > people who know what average home users really want and are comfortable > with. You *can't* sell crypto to home users. Crypto is not a product, it's infrastructure. You sell email clients and web browsers to end users. You sell them Chat Clients and MP3 players. Crypto is (or should be) a part of those, and to be a part of those, it's got to be seamless. Back in 1996 when the "Open Source" movement was going public and picking up steam I came to the conclusion, which I am as certain of today as I was then, that the problem with Open Source, and what I now believe the problem with Crypto-enhanced products to be is the "Last Mile". Solving problems is fun. Solving hard problems is a lot of fun. Doing a proof of concept of these problems is interesting. Putting a useful interface on these proofs of concept is a lot of boring work. Why aren't there any *good* Open Source word processors (usable, yes. functional, well, yes. *good* well integrated consistent, no) other than possibly OpenOffice/StarOffice, which is, well we all know it's lineage. > Even with a whole laundry list of reasons behind the recent troubles > (i.e. failures) of ZKS and Network Associates, I don't think you ought > to > dismiss the "intelligence divide" problem out of hand. Maybe you can, > but I > think it's still worth considering. It's not the "intelligence divide", it's ease of use, and a belief in the utility. Why are there no (or damn few) IRC clients/servers that support SSL? Why is there only one (that I'm aware of) chat client that uses crypto? Why the fuck isn't *everything* on the wire encrypted at least once? Because very few people see the utility in it. And they may be right. -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 22 13:38:13 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 13:38:13 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111182216.RAA20824@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <3B80220C-DF91-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Sunday, November 18, 2001, at 02:16 PM, Faustine wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > declan wrote: >> Not so with digital cash. It also suffers from deployment problems, of >> course, but far more substantial regulatory ones. You need two >> consenting users -- and a tie-in to the banking system (preferable) or >> at least some exchange of value (like e-gold) that's sufficiently >> trusted. Crypto may peeve the FBI, but widespread digital cash is far >> more alarming to governments, which will not permit true digital cash >> to be deployed in any popular way. One obvious way to limit its utility >> is to restrict its tie-ins with the banking system, or prohibit >> businesses >> within their borders from using it. >> That's the crypto winter. > > On a scale of 1 to 10, how likely do you think it is that these > problems will > be resolved in, say, the next decade? Where are the people most likely > to make > it happen? Fascinating stuff. 0. Can't happen, and won't. Why? there's no margin in it. RH was always going on about Digital bearer Certs being 2 orders of magnitude cheaper to clear than a book entry transaction, and he may well be right. But Citibank, AmEX and the others make their money making those transactions, and they aren't stupid people. They're not going to cut their own throats--they realize that the costs of setting up and running a clearing house for DBC/Ecash/whatever are trivial compared to running a clearing house for credit cards. And the government realizes what happens when they can no longer track the money. I used to have one thin wedge of hope, that someone with the brains, the code and the capital would realize that there could be a killing made in the Adult Entertainment side of things--porn and gambling. Areas where (1) Participants do not necessarily trust each other, (2) People often wish to be anonymous, and (3) large amounts of cash change hands. However the Porn Sites are obviously doing quite well getting True Names from people, and the people obviously don't mind much that these sites will often double charge their credit cards &etc. And the gambling people, well, they're heavily regulated. -- Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws. Plato (427-347 B.C.) From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 22 13:44:24 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 13:44:24 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111190639.AAA27706@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <18AC1E86-DF92-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Sunday, November 18, 2001, at 10:37 PM, CDR Anonymizer wrote: > At 08:29 PM 11/18/01 -0800, CDR Anonymizer wrote: >> Because they could. > > This goes beyond gratuitous demonstration of power and ability, > there is an economic reason behind it all. > What is / their / economic reason? Same as it always is. Control. -- Interfaces matter. You need mathematical bones; engineering muscle; but you won't replicate without beautiful skin. Bits, transistors, wires, code, gummint velveeta is free. Will is expensive. Gutenburg. Smith. Ford. Moore. Postel. Steam engines were neat. Steam engines pulling trains were amazing. Computers were neat. Computers networked were amazing. Warning grunts are useful. The ability of a charistmatic speaker to fuck with your head is disastrous. --Blank Frank(anonymously)-- From mch at informationanarchy.org Thu Nov 22 13:46:06 2001 From: mch at informationanarchy.org (Mark Henderson) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 13:46:06 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <5EB8CF1E-DF8E-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org>; from petro@bounty.org on Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:17:44PM -0800 References: <200111182153.QAA15610@mail.lokmail.net> <5EB8CF1E-DF8E-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> Message-ID: <20011122134606.A12687@informationanarchy.org> On Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:17:44PM -0800, Petro wrote: > When was the last time you worked a Customer Support line for a web > site that did CC transactions? > > End users care about, and insist on security. They don't know JS > about it, they don't begin to understand it, but they "know" that 128 > bit SSL is better than 40bit, and they know that it "keeps hackers away > from their credit cards". Yes, they do care. But, I don't understand exactly why they care since unauthorised e-commerce transactions end up being the liability of the merchant and the credit card company. It is usually just an annoyance for the customer. Of course, 128 bit SSL gives customers a false sense of security. The CC number is protected over the wire between their desktop and the web server, but customers have no clue what happens to their CC number after that. If the web server has been compromised, it doesn't matter much what sort of over-the-wire encryption you use. The customer generally has little idea of how the merchant stores CC numbers and what measures are in place to protect them. From 100posko at jakarta.wasantara.net.id Wed Nov 21 22:52:25 2001 From: 100posko at jakarta.wasantara.net.id (100posko) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 13:52:25 +0700 Subject: remove In-Reply-To: <200111191835.SAA18097@s0231.pm0.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011122135214.00a10eb0@jakarta.wasantara.net.id> At 03:46 AM 11/19/2001 -0800, you wrote: >cypherpunks at toad.com From mv at cdc.gov Thu Nov 22 14:51:39 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 14:51:39 -0800 Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto Message-ID: <3BFD817B.32213A57@cdc.gov> At 11:35 AM 11/22/01 -0800, John Young wrote: Do caves >serve as acoustic resonators to emit recorded whispers up >ventilating shafts? Their waveguide, not resonance, properties might be of interest, if their CO2 emissions -whether speaking or silent- were not so telling. Unless Osama's got a *bunch* of lime. Thermal sig is telling too. They don't grow weed under lights in the karez, do they? From mv at cdc.gov Thu Nov 22 15:24:43 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 15:24:43 -0800 Subject: Got blood agar? Message-ID: <3BFD893B.27B6DDF8@cdc.gov> Tryptic Soy Agar w/ 5% sheep blood. $15.95 Restricted: May only be shipped to educational and research institutions. If you do not qualify nutrient agar or TSA w/o blood may be substituted http://www.thesciencefair.com/bio/bio-microbio.html From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 22 15:34:27 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 15:34:27 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <77F2AC3C-DFA1-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 12:55 PM, Tim May wrote: > On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 12:36 PM, Faustine wrote: <...> >> This applied as well to _new_ banks. This meant that neither the >> customer (Joe Sixpack) nor the branch manager had to be "convinced" or >> "sold" on the importance or value of good security. Rather, the normal >> market discounting forces took care of the issue. Actuaries, >> underwriters, risk estimators, and security experts think about things >> some people never think will happen to them. Educating the masses is >> not the main issue. > > If you had read much of the past traffic of the list, Faustine, you > would know about this point. > > Will the same happen with online security and crypto? It already has. > The credit card companies already have imposed rules for merchants, a > major part of why SSL and 128-bit crypto and all the rest is happening. > Lawsuits over leaking of medical records are already happening, and > some large tort judgements will likely cause increases in security > (including better encryption, more use of capability-based > architectures to limit access, etc.) The irony in this, to use your analogy to bank robbers, is that mandating 128bit SSL is not securing the bank vault, but rather making sure nobody but the bank teller and the customer know what they are saying to each other (SSL being transport security). Most bank robbers in the past wanted in to the safe/vault cause that's where the *big* cash is. These days that is done by reading the database, rather than sniffing the wire. But database security is relatively easy and uninteresting. > Sure, Grandma and Sis aren't using PGP 8.13 to encrypt their notes to > you. So? So it makes it more obvious when Bill the Abortion Provider sends me instructions on how to get to his office. > Not that I'm discouraging you from going out to and trying to get that > "I didn't know that!" glimmer of awareness that maybe good locks are > better than bad locks. Knock yourself out. Part of the problem is that security is a PITA, and they get that glimmer, and they start worrying about things, but the habits are already there. > --Tim May > "You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher > moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know > that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged." - -Michael > Shirley -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 22 15:39:38 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 15:39:38 -0800 Subject: Nuclear Pipe Bombs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <317BA17B-DFA2-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 01:47 PM, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Ken Brown quoted Tim May (I think) saying: > >>> A way too expensive way to spread mere >>> radiological terror, which could be done >>> much more cheaply and easily by taking >>> spent fuel rods and blowing them up, or >>> just by grinding up spent fuel rods or >>> other nuclear waste and then dumping it >>> out of a plane over a city.) > > Won't work on Berkeley, though. The City Council declared Berkeley a > "Nuclear Free Zone." Guess that leaves only conventional weapons. What about night-sights on pistols and analog watches? -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 22 15:40:11 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 15:40:11 -0800 Subject: Cypherpunk failures In-Reply-To: <3BF929E2.16710.1B53670@localhost> Message-ID: <44D93C6A-DFA2-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Monday, November 19, 2001, at 01:48 PM, Roy M. Silvernail wrote: > On 19 Nov 2001, at 19:43, Ken Brown wrote: > >> Much too 1990s. These times suit more loyal-sounding names. >> "Programmers Rally Against Terrorism"? > > I wonder how many non-Brits will get this... A few. -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From declan at well.com Thu Nov 22 13:20:28 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 16:20:28 -0500 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011122095849.0230b1a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011122161809.02603b80@mail.well.com> I have little interest in debating with someone who believes in criminalizing the publication and distribution (and also, apparently, the purchasing) of scientific and technical information. One might as well debate the merits of concealed carry .40 caliber vs. 9mm handguns with a Handgun Control lobbyist. -Declan At 12:44 PM 11/22/2001 -0600, gep2 at terabites.com wrote: >On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >Nobody is saying that free expression includes inciting a riot or > >soliciting murder. But it does generally include the right to write a book > >(and read it) without being targeted by the government. > >MY translation of what YOU are saying is that when a student learning to >fly a >commercial Boeing airliner tells his flight instructor that he doesn't >need to >learn how to take off or land, but only how to fly it in the air, that we >ought >to say (the flight instructor, and society in general) "Oh, that's cool, I >guess," and not report it as suspicious. > >Sorry, I don't agree. > > >What you wrote that raised eyebrows was this: > > >>I sure hope that the government is investigating and following each and > every > >>person who buys a copy of this book... I wonder if there's a way to force > >>Tobiason to foot the bill for that security? > > >There are plenty of books I can think of -- almost all of the Loompanics > >catalog -- that would fret some government official. David Burnham's books > >on the IRS and DOJ abuses of power are another. > >There's a huge difference between a book that blows the whistle on government >misdoings and abuses versus a book that gives a detailed recipe on how some >disgruntled lunatic with $10 in their pocket can kill tens of thousands, >maybe >even millions, of other people "from your basement, in your spare time". > >ESPECIALLY when that book discusses (and presumably encourages) the >distribution >of anthrax and other home-cultured lethal pathogens by letters in the >mail, and >in light of recent events bearing a striking similarity to that, I think it's >obvious that people who bought this guy's book or CD are certainly at least >among the list of prime suspects. (And I'd think that it simply makes >sense to >investigate, and monitor the activities of the rest of the purchasers to >try to >uncover if they're just "curious" as an academically interesting subject, >or to >see if they have a more sinister purpose.) > >Obviously we as a nation were largely blindsided by the September 11th >disaster, >and we've been roundly criticized due to the obvious failure of >intelligence to >see this coming and head it off somehow. While we can't ALWAYS achieve that, >it's clear that we need to do better in that area. > >There's plenty of other things that "ordinary" folk simply don't have much >need >to buy and own. [very-]Large-denomination currency, perhaps. Nuclear >weapons. > High explosives and blasting caps. Shoulder-launced antiaircraft > missiles. >I'm sure you can think of others. I'd put anthrax and other biological or >chemical weapons into that category, too. I'd hope that anyone buying (or >attempting to buy) such stuff would at least slightly raise an eyebrow on the >part of SOMEONE charged with helping to maintain a society that's safe to >live >in. It's clearly NOT enough to only monitor such things on the part of >madmen >like Saddam Hussein... clearly, we have crazy people right here in the United >States, too. They're no less in need of at least some oversight to make sure >that they don't go off the deep end and endanger as much as an entire city >(or >possibly even worse). > > >But I hardly think it's > >consistent with the First Amendment to investigate the people who buy them, > >or make the authors pay "protection money" for the privilege of publishing. > >It's hardly reasonable for taxpayers as a whole to have to pay the high >costs of >security that are created by an irresponsible individual who is creating a >very >dangerous situation just to earn a few fistfulls of dollars (and to quite >purposefully create that danger). When someone creates a highly dangerous >condition that results in heavy costs to someone else (whether to correct the >problem, or even to protect themselves against the possible problem) then >courts >have traditionally found that the damaged party has a civil claim against the >person creating that hazard. > >Again, the First Amendment has its limits. If some organization were to >publish >a "you can build it at home in your spare time" cookbook recipe of how to >create >an innovative sort of nuclear weapon capable of destroying a large city, I'd >expect for the government to step in and prevent its publication and sale... >purely as a matter of national security. Now THERE, it's true that getting >"enough" nuclear fuel is nontrivial, but in the case of biological (and even >some chemical) weapons, the potential for actual (and not just imagined) >mischief is far greater, and the harm that could be done is far too high to >dismiss as being simply hypothetical until after the fact. > >The idea that this nitwit is "only just" publishing this kind of material and >not HIMSELF committing the resulting crimes (and it could WELL be that the >anthrax attacks already seen here are the work of one or more of his >customers) >and that he therefore should be allowed to continue these sales unimpeded and >unmonitored is rather like saying that Osama bin Laden is only running >terrorism >training camps, producing snazzy recruitment videos, publishing terrorism >handbooks and providing other logistical support but that nothing he's >done has >actually CAUSED anybody to go out and commit these horrible atrocities. > >Again, sorry, I don't agree. > >Just as very few Americans (in fact I suspect this is true for most of the >world) will shed great tears when ObL is captured or killed, I think that >few of >them will be very upset when this guy selling "murder millions of your fellow >citizens" cookbooks is eliminated. > > >Then you wrote in the message below: > > >>How many sets of these "terrorism cookbooks" do you let fall > >>into the hands of psychotics? We already don't sell guns to convicted > >>felons... > >> gee, that sounds to me like "prior restraint"... or do you think THAT's > >> wrong, > >>too? There are some things that are so terrible that you simply can't > wait to > >>prosecute or criminalize until AFTER the fact of their happening. > > >My translation of that is "we must require background checks on people who > >buy books, newspapers, or magazines" that some FBI officials dislike. > >No. (That's not a very good translation! In fact it's OUTRAGEOUSLY poor.) > >It's not an issue of "dislike". Political dissent MUST be allowed. Even >civil >disobedience is probably a legitimate form of protest. Putting (quite >literally) the lives of perhaps even MILLIONS of Americans at serious risk of >being murdered by some disgruntled sociopath is in a totally different >category >altogether. > > >(I look forward to seeing how you'll extend this to the Internet. > AdultCheck, > >anyone? > >Sexuality and "illicit" orgasms are a victimless crime. I don't think >that the >government should be in the business of prosecuting "crimes" where there >are no >(and aren't likely to be any, either) victims. The government should not >be in >the morality business. > > >How about posts on the cypherpunks list or other fora that include > >more scientific or technical information than you feel comfortable with?) > >Depends on the nature of the information. Ultimately, it will probably >require >a judge or jury or some such to make the call. Yeah, that's a slippery >slope. >Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that it's a dangerous time that >we find >ourselves in since September 11th. The sentiment of the public is that we >have >to do more to ensure the safety of our homes and lives, even if the result is >the loss of some of our once-cherished personal freedoms. We can only >hope that >the requisite level of safety can be achieved with minimum harm to our >freedoms. > >I think it's ironic (and fairly stupid) that some of those who are pissing >and >moaning the most about the government having abused them are going to be >those >doing the most to INCREASE the degree and probability of government >oppressiveness. :-( That's just STUPID, although nobody accused these >guys of >being smart. > > >My translation of your last sentence is "we must criminalize the > >publication of certain technical or scientific information just because > >some bad people may get their hands on it." > >Again, a very poor translation. > >First, I didn't say that "publication of...information" was one of those >"some >things [that are] just so terrible...". > >Discovery of (for example) a suitcase-sized nuclear weapon in some lunatic's >apartment in Manhattan would be one of those things where I think one could >reasonably argue that they ought to be locked up and the key thrown away... I >don't think we should wait until the bomb were exploded to consider the >danger >[or act] unacceptable. > >Discovery of a fermenting vat and a breeding quantity of live anthrax >bacteria >(or smallpox, for that matter, or sarin gas, or other chemical or biological >weapons) in someone's garage is probably another one of those cases where >mere >POSSESSION ought to be enough to result in criminal prosecution and >incarceration. > >And this isn't really a new bit of legislation... mere possession of >distribution-sized quantities of crack is already illegal, simply because one >can only presume that the INTENTION is there to distribute it. (Likewise, >bringing a boatload of marijuana into a US port under cover of darkness is >illegal, because it's safe enough to presume that it's not because they >want to >build a bonfire on the beach with it...) > >A better example of the type of thing Declan is talking about would be the >possession of something that is INFORMATION ALONE (such as certain types of >pornographic material, perhaps) where there is no victim (e.g. drawings or >computer-generated images, where one can't even make the farfetched argument >about the model having been abused or exploited). I think that it's >absurd for >the government to try to legislate morality, especially when it's >religious-based issues like personal sexuality. > >It's especially outrageous when the government attempts to criminalize >UNWITTING >AND UNKNOWN possession. Let's say, for example, that you buy a copy of the >Sunday New York Times from a vending machine on the sidewalk. Unknown to >you, a >prior customer at the same newspaper vending machine slipped a pornographic >image of a child into the Real Estate section (which you never open or >read) of >the copy you purchased. Later that evening, law enforcement agents enter >your >home with a search warrant, find the pornographic image hidden in your >newspaper, and cart you off to jail for "possession". > >Alternatively, you're prowling around the Net and tell your newsreader >software >to download several thousand pictures from a busy newsgroup. You look at >some >of them the next morning, but don't view them all. Unknown to you, one of >the >images you inadvertently downloaded was an offtopic pornographic image of a >child posted to that newgroup by an obnoxious spammer. Theoretically, you're >now a felon and sex offender because you are in possession of an image you're >not allowed to have, even if you have no idea whatsoever that you have it. > >Anyhow, I think THAT IS WRONG. (See, I'm really a strong civil >libertarian...) > > >Comparing background checks for > >gun purchasers (in an approving way) to background checks to books is just > >nutty. > >I'm perhaps less concerned about "background checks" before the sale of >terrorism training manuals (*and the like*) than I am with just trying to >figure >out whether the persons buying stuff like that are truly just curious, or if >they constitute a clear and present danger to the citizens of the country. > >It created something of an outrage when the FBI admitted during the >government >hearings that (even several weeks after the anthrax attacks) they had no clue >about how many, or which, labs in the USA had access to and were working with >anthrax. I'd think that, at the very least, when they're investigating this >particular issue they'd look at this guy's customers as among the list of >prime >suspects (and in order to do that, they need some kind of audit trail.) > > >Now do you see why your post is so at odds with the principles of a free > >society? If not, I'm not sure you're educable on this issue. > >Clearly we're going to lose some of our freedoms. :-((( I just hope that >those >losses can be minimized. Meanwhile, it's bastards like this guy selling >these >terrorism training manuals who are ultimately more part of the problem >than they >are part of the solution. > >Gordon Peterson http://personal.terabites.com/ >Support the Anti-SPAM Amendment! Join at http://www.cauce.org/ >12/19/98: Partisan Republicans scornfully ignore the voters they "represent". >12/09/00: the date the Republican Party took down democracy in America. From faustine at lokmail.net Thu Nov 22 13:55:26 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 16:55:26 -0500 Subject: The generosity of capitalism Message-ID: <200111222155.QAA03285@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 6950 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 22 17:13:00 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:13:00 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <20011122123605.A12106@informationanarchy.org> References: ; from petro@bounty.org on Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 08:46:18PM -0800 Message-ID: <3BFD321C.22189.1E9667B@localhost> -- On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 08:46:18PM -0800, Petro wrote: > > Not necessarily. It is argued both that Libertarians are > > chicken-shit anarchists (afraid to take the last step) or > > that Anarchists are just extreme Libertarians. On 22 Nov 2001, at 12:36, Mark Henderson wrote: > As far as I can tell most libertarians are in favour of an > unfettered free market. People who label themselves as > anarchists tend to be anti-capitalist. Similarly, databases labelled as "relational" never were, and databases that actually are relational never bothered to so label themselves. Anti capitalist anarchism, socialist anarchism, died bloodily in Catalonia in betrayal, terror, and tyranny. In 1938 the remaining "anarcho" socialists hastily reinterpreted their past inconvenient ideology, so that the word "anarchy" was reinterpreted to have a meaning indistinguishable from then existent socialism, as practiced by Lenin and Stalin. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 3opan3fOO0313IWOH9fLfURa36NdNh673go0d5tj 43Ub+9gJWVkRNPVoyZQHqA0ljAxGEIgKJmLUhZlCk From memcs1103 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 22 15:38:17 2001 From: memcs1103 at yahoo.com (-Email Leads-) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:38:17 -0600 Subject: Targeted E-mail, Sending Services Message-ID: <200111222347.RAA25306@einstein.ssz.com> ===================================== New Special~ FREE Stealth Mass Mailer with orders of 250,000! One Month FREE Subscription to 5-10 Blind mail servers/day M-F! (never lose your ISP again!) ===================================== - FRESH 10,000 List 11-20-01!! 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SEE SITE for more details and pricing! ----------------------------------------------- - SPECIALS! - ---------------------- **FREE with EVERY order: Demo of ListMan e-mail manager software **Orders of 50,000 or more: FREE copy Express Mail Server to send your messages! -This is not a demo but a permanent license for the software! **Orders of 200,000 : - Resale Rights for EMS! -->You keep 100% of the profits - InfoDisk with 1000+ Money Making Reports - CheckMAN software _______________________________________________________________ To be removed from future mailings: mailto:memcs1103 at yahoo.com?Subject=Remove From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Nov 22 09:30:16 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 18:30:16 +0100 (MET) Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto In-Reply-To: <3BFCDBDD.13373.27A012@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Roy M. Silvernail wrote: > Using a GPS coordinate set as keying material? Hope it's just Given that a GPS receiver gets ephemeris data, almanach data and pseudorandom code from each currently visible sat it has probably to do with the latter. Consider S/A (which may or may not be switched off now, I haven't checked): if you've got a secret part of the key you can refine your position despite deliberate degradation (selective availability) than the party without the key. > additional keying material. Knowing the intended destination of > something like a movie in transit to a theater seems pretty easy, and > the set of GPS coordinates encompassing your average multiplex would > seem to be pretty small compared to the usual keyspaces discussed > here. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Nov 22 09:36:25 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 18:36:25 +0100 (MET) Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote: > Given that a GPS receiver gets ephemeris data, almanach data and > pseudorandom code from each currently visible sat it has probably to do > with the latter. Consider S/A (which may or may not be switched off now, I > haven't checked): if you've got a secret part of the key you can refine > your position despite deliberate degradation (selective availability) than > the party without the key. Forgot the URL: http://www.csr.utexas.edu/texas_pwv/midterm/gabor/gps.html The PRN is a tapped feedback shift register. From arpa_listserv at yahoo.com Thu Nov 22 20:18:56 2001 From: arpa_listserv at yahoo.com (Grace Leonard) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 20:18:56 Subject: Hello again. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5416 bytes Desc: not available URL: From infomacao at giganetstore.com Thu Nov 22 15:04:08 2001 From: infomacao at giganetstore.com (infomacao at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 23:04:08 -0000 Subject: As dicas do Rudolfo Potter Message-ID: <0b6c708042316b1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> ver mais produtos » Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3918 bytes Desc: not available URL: From huge at mail.huge-mail.com Thu Nov 22 23:45:07 2001 From: huge at mail.huge-mail.com (Huge Mail Offers) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 23:45:07 -0800 Subject: huge-mail.com, Target Your Greetings.... Message-ID: <200111222143.NAA07460@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4355 bytes Desc: not available URL: From listserv_zeta at yahoo.com Fri Nov 23 00:03:23 2001 From: listserv_zeta at yahoo.com (Mandy Byde) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 00:03:23 Subject: I haven't heard from you lately. Message-ID: <355.154776.167754@yahoo.com> HAVE ALL THE WOMEN YOU'VE EVER WANTED!!! FREE Download! Sweep Women Off Their Feet and Into Your Bed! One of the best books ever written on the topic of Dating and Seduction. 120 full pages that will get you on your way to being with more women than you can handle. Best of all, its absolute, one hundred percent FREE! Find this book and links to the best Dating and Seduction tips and secrets available anywhere, all under one roof. You just can't lose, act today. To request more information, please send an email to: seduction_book at yahoo.com To be remove from our mailing list, send and email to: rem_lstsrv at yahoo.com From measl at mfn.org Thu Nov 22 23:02:16 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 01:02:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: "Rigorous and objective" (if at first...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Petro wrote: > On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 07:36 AM, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > (in my perfectly humble hate-group inspired opinion :-). It's also > > great > > fun watching Jeff and company pretend to be even dumber than your > > average > > @home luser. > > What makes you think they're pretending? *Never*, _ever_, underestimate the Enemy. JeffCo are an awful lot of [mostly bad] things, but truly stupid is not one of them. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Thu Nov 22 23:39:29 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 01:39:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: MI5 Plan to detect terrorists Message-ID: Right out of a Monty Python piece... http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/06/30/ngerb30.xml MI5's secret plan to recruit gerbils as spycatchers By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent (Filed: 30/06/2001) MI5 considered using a team of highly-trained gerbils to detect spies and terrorists flying into Britain during the 1970s, Sir Stephen Lander, the service's director-general, revealed yesterday. The plan was based on the ability of gerbils to detect a rise in adrenalin from changes in the scent of human sweat. Sir Stephen said the Israelis had put the idea into practice, placing gerbil cages to the side of security checks for travellers at Tel Aviv airport. A suitably placed fan wafted the scent of the suspect's sweat into the cage. The gerbils were trained by Pavlovian response to press a lever if they detected increased adrenalin, receiving food as a reward. The system was never put into practice by MI5 because the Israelis were forced to abandon it after they found that the gerbil could not tell the difference between terrorists and passengers who were scared of flying. Speaking at a conference at the Public Record Office in Kew, Sir Stephen said MI5 archives contained a complete volume on the idea - which was based on Canadian research for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police - written in the 1970s. Although Dame Stella Rimington made a practice of speaking publicly in an attempt to change MI5, yesterday's Missing Dimension conference was only the second occasion that Sir Stephen has done so. The conference marks a new PRO exhibition on espionage, Shaken Not Stirred, starting today, which includes exhibits on a number of spies including Mata Hari and a spy paid the equivalent of 6.5 million by King George I to spy on the Stuarts. The Missing Dimension refers to the fact that most histories are written before intelligence files have been released and so omit a crucial element of what occurred and why. Sir Stephen admitted that it would be a long time before MI5 would be able to release details of its Cold War activities. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From proff at iq.org Thu Nov 22 07:38:59 2001 From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 02:38:59 +1100 (EST) Subject: Gold In-Reply-To: <004201c17305$c31a5c80$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <20011122153859.9040B259F3@suburbia.net> [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > Whoops ! Yes I meant Douglas Adams ( My punishment: To be damned to heck and > forced to listen to Vogon Poetry). > > -Neil You have certainly come to the right place for it. -- Julian Assange |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and proff at iq.org |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery From mattd at useoz.com Thu Nov 22 08:42:09 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:42:09 +1100 Subject: why market to Joe Sixpack?, Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011123032805.009fc040@pop.useoz.com> "efforts are better spent developing the technologies and markets in such a way that maybe Joe Sixpack will someday follow. " Tim wrote. Technologies like quantum computing could be to late/impossible/to expensive.Markets seem more promising even in freeloaders heaven,the web,plenty will pay for games.Theres a take off of the IMF/WTOvs demonstrators battles so why not a cypherpunks vs the evil feds game on X-box or gameboy?Some of the more exciting and futuristic applications of cryptoanarchy could be on the higher levels.The base game simply being how much you can get away with before being frogmarched off to 'happy fun court'. Ive got a funny feeling that P-P hordes are about to descend on crypto like locusts,anyone else? From Gratuit at MarocMail.com Fri Nov 23 03:54:20 2001 From: Gratuit at MarocMail.com (Gratuit at MarocMail.com) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:54:20 Subject: Joyeux Ramadan Message-ID: <200111230401.WAA26079@einstein.ssz.com> www.MarocAnnonces.com Salut, Pourquoi payer une annonce qui durera une journée, une semaine ou un mois, alors que vous pouvez publier vos annonces, embellies par des photos GRATUITEMENT sur un site Internet convivial et facile a mémoriser: http://www.MarocAnnonces.com votrenom @ MarocMail.com http://www.MarocMail.com Webmaster From denning at cs.georgetown.edu Fri Nov 23 08:38:13 2001 From: denning at cs.georgetown.edu (Dorothy Denning) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 08:38:13 -0800 Subject: Geo-encryption Message-ID: We don't have anything yet we are giving out to the public, but no, it isn't related to the CoinCard (which I hadn't even heard of). From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 23 07:08:55 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:08:55 -0500 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <20011122123605.A12106@informationanarchy.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20011117174902.007b37b0@pop.sprynet.com> <20011122123605.A12106@informationanarchy.org> Message-ID: At 12:36 PM -0800 on 11/22/01, Mark Henderson wrote: > People who label themselves as anarchists > tend to be anti-capitalist. Except around here, and, frankly, in whole swaths of the internet. Go read read up on David Friedman, and see if you can say what you said above again with a straight face anymore. :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From schear at lvcm.com Fri Nov 23 10:24:24 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:24:24 -0800 Subject: John Dean: The Problems With Bush's Executive Order Burying Presidential Records Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011123102417.04d16e90@pop3.lvcm.com> "While secrecy is necessary to fight a war, it is not necessary to run the country. I can assure you from firsthand experience that a President acting secretly usually does not have the best interest of Americans in mind. It is his own personal interest that is on his mind instead." Hiding Past And Present Presidencies: The Problems With Bush's Executive Order Burying Presidential Records http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20011109.html By JOHN DEAN Friday, Nov. 09, 2001 On November 1, President George W. Bush signed his latest effort to govern by secrecy - Executive Order 13233. For good reason this Order has a lot of historians, journalists, and Congresspersons (both Republican and Democratic) upset. The Order ends 27 years of Congressional and judicial efforts to make Presidential papers and records publicly available. In issuing the Order, the President has pushed his lawmaking powers beyond their limits. The Secret Presidency As President watchers know, we have a President who likes secrecy. He has hired only tested leak-proof and loyal staffers, effectively sealing the Bush White House. He has had his records as the Governor of Texas hidden, shipping them off to his father's Presidential library, where they are inaccessible. He has stiffed the Congressional requests for information about how he developed his energy policy - refusing to respond. No President can govern in a fishbowl. But not since Richard Nixon went to work in the Oval Office has there been as concentrated an effort to keep the real work of a President hidden, showing the public only a scripted President, as now. While this effort was evident before the September 11th terrorist attacks, the events of that day have become the justification for even greater secrecy. The mystical veil of "national security" has been cast over much of the Bush administration. There were the secret arrests of terror-related suspects (currently over 1000 publicly unknown people). There was the expansion of the wiretap granting powers of a secret federal court hidden within the Department of Justice. There was, and continues to be, an apparent policy of precluding news organizations and congressional leaders from access to anything other than managed and generic news about the war in Afghanistan. With all these moves, President Bush is brushing aside one historical tradition of openness after another. It is in this context that the President's latest action must be viewed. The Executive Order suggests that President Bush not only does not want Americans to know what he is doing, but he also does not want to worry that historians and others will someday find out. Certainly that is the implicit message in his new effort to preclude public access to Presidential papers - his, and those of all Presidents since the Reagan-Bush administration. There is, however, no justification whatsoever for this latest effort to hide the work of past, present, and future Presidents. What Bush's Executive Action Means There has been some confusion about the meaning of the President's actions in addressing Presidential papers. He has not repealed the existing law, as some have asserted, because he does not have that power. But he has sought to significantly modify the law, and made its procedures far more complex, cumbersome and restrictive. In doing so, he has exceeded his executive powers under the Presidential Records Act of 1978. White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer has tried, unsuccessfully, to spin Executive Order 13233 as doing nothing more than implementing the existing law, but in fact, the Order does much more. Perhaps unsurprisingly, when pressed during his briefing, Mr. Fleischer dodged the tough questions, or said "that's a matter for the lawyers." Fleischer contention that the Order is innocuous would not hold up under close scrutiny, and so he avoided that scrutiny. Attorney Scott Nelson's Testimony Against the Order One lawyer who appreciates exactly what has been done is Washington attorney Scott L. Nelson, who represents Public Citizen, the public advocacy group that flushed out the Nixon papers during several decades of litigation. Mr. Nelson knows these laws well because Richard Nixon was his client for 15 years ironically, much of that time fighting Public Citizen. Indeed, Scott Nelson has been involved in the litigation that has shaped the body of law that President Bush has ignored in issuing his Executive Order. On November 6, Nelson appeared before a subcommittee of the House Committee on Government Reform, chaired by Congressman Stephen Horn, to address the new Bush Order. He explained in detail its flaws - which I have only summarized below, by highlighting a few examples of how the Bush Order ignores, or seeks to change, the law. The Presidential Records Act Under the 1978 Presidential Records Act, virtually all of a former President's records are to be made publicly available by the Archivist twelve years after that President leaves office. There are narrow exceptions for papers that still must be withheld for national security reasons. But the 1978 statute specifically states that among the material to be released by the Archives twelve years after a President leaves office are his confidential and private communications with his advisers (White House staff and Cabinet Departments). The existing law does not provide an exception for withholding "attorney-client" or "attorney work product" materials. The New Executive Order: Adding Presidential Privileges to Those in the Act Through Executive Order 13233, President Bush has sought to re-interpret the 1978 law. To put it briefly, the Order adds and enumerates privileges upon which a former or incumbent President can block release of a former President's materials. In claiming that the Order does not contradict the Records Act, Bush relies on a clause in the Act that states that it does not "confirm, limit, or expand constitutionally-based privileges which may be available to an incumbent or former President." Bush's lawyers read this clause as bringing into play all of the privileges the law has precluded. They cite specifically the Supreme Court's 1977 holding in Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, which says that a former President can exert executive privilege. The 1978 law only recognizes the enumerated privileges set forth in the Freedom Of Information Act. Nevertheless, Bush's Executive Order makes clear that he reads the law as entitling a former or incumbent President to assert a laundry list of privileges: the state secrets or national security privilege; the communications with advisors privilege, the attorney-client and attorney work product privileges, and the deliberative process privilege. Shifting the Burden, and Adding Extra Procedures President Bush has also shifted the burden from the former President to the person seeking the material. Under the Executive Order, the person seeking material must show that he should be given it; it is no longer necessary for the former President to show why material must not be disclosed. Bush's Executive Order also takes the Archivist of the United States out of the role of deciding if a former President's invocation of privilege should or should not be honored. That role is now assigned to the incumbent President. And obviously, it is likely that Presidents - wanting successors to honor their own invocations of privilege - might tend to accept former President's claims. The new Executive Order also creates an elaborate procedure for an incumbent President to block his predecessor from releasing documents. In addition, under Bush's order, a former President can indefinitely block release of his material, which is not possible under existing law. Another added benefit for former Presidents is this: When the incumbent President agrees with the former President about his decision to not release records, the incumbent President (through the Department of Justice) will defend the privilege against attack. That saves the former President what can be significant legal expenses for attorney's fees to contest the case in court. A New Power for Vice Presidents While Scott Nelson did not mention it in his testimony, the most remarkable change the Executive Order effects is that it gives not just a President, but also a Vice President, the power to invoke executive privilege over his papers. The Presidential Records Act includes Vice Presidential records. But it does not give a former Vice President the right to invoke executive privilege - for Congress does not have the power to do so. Indeed, under the Constitution, the executive privilege is unique to the President. Bush's Order is nothing less than absurd in purporting to grant the power to invoke this privilege to the Vice President, (and may only feed suspicion that Dick Cheney's role is more Presidential than may be appropriate to his office). The Effect of The New Executive Order President Bush has not stated why he revoked the existing Executive Order (Number 12667) addressing Presidential Records. President Reagan issued the Order in 1989 after studying the law for almost eight years of his presidency. Many believed Reagan's Order went beyond the law. Yet President Clinton did not challenge or change it during his eight years in office. Ironically, if President Clinton - not President Bush - had been the one who issued this new Executive Order, Republicans in Congress would no doubt have called for his impeachment for failure to execute the laws (that is, failure to abide by the Presidential Records Act.) Just as Clinton's assertions of privilege in court were repeatedly questioned - and even argued by some to be abuse of process or even obstruction of justice - Clinton's extension of Presidential privileges through an Executive Order would have faced heavy criticism. But when Bush takes the same action - especially now, with his new popularity - the criticism is highly modulated in tone. Why Bush Apparently Issued the New Executive Order What appears to have provoked President Bush's action is the fact that some 68,000 documents from the Reagan presidency were waiting at the White House when Bush arrived, ready for release by the National Archives. These documents passed the twelve-year deadline for public release on January 12, 2001, but their release has been stalled by the Bush White House until now. The documents are believed to contain records that Papa Bush, as Reagan's Vice President, is not happy to have made public. They also contain papers of others now working for Bush, who might be embarrassed by their release. Look for either Papa Bush, or someone designated by former President Reagan, to object to any of these 68,000 documents' release pursuant to the new Executive Order. If that happens, it will confirm my guess as to why the Order was written at this time. The effect will be to tie the release of those records up for years. The most certain effect of this new Order will be litigation. The Order will be tested in court, if the President does not withdraw it as requested by both Republicans and Democrats in the Congress. And should the Order not be overturned by the courts, I believe Congress will act. In fact, Congress could act even before the courts resolve these matters. In short, the prospects for Bush's Executive Order 13233 remaining the law of the land is slim to none. A Troubling Penchant For Secrecy More troubling than the Order's throwing a monkey wrench into the process of releasing Presidential papers, however, is the President's penchant for secrecy. Secrecy provokes the question of what is being hidden and why. If President Bush continues with his Nixon-style secrecy, I suspect voters will give him a Nixon-style vote of no confidence come 2004. While secrecy is necessary to fight a war, it is not necessary to run the country. I can assure you from firsthand experience that a President acting secretly usually does not have the best interest of Americans in mind. It is his own personal interest that is on his mind instead. The Bush administration would do well to remember the admonition of former Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan in his report on government secrecy: "Behind closed doors, there is no guarantee that the most basic of individual freedoms will be preserved. And as we enter the 21st Century, the great fear we have for our democracy is the enveloping culture of government secrecy and the corresponding distrust of government that follows." John Dean, a FindLaw columnist, is a former Counsel to the President of the United States. His most recent book, The Rehnquist Choice: The Untold Story of the Nixon Appointment That Redefined the Supreme Court, was just published by the Free Press. From schear at lvcm.com Fri Nov 23 10:24:41 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:24:41 -0800 Subject: The Crypto-Financial Paradox Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011123102436.04a59310@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:22 AM 11/22/2001 -0800, you wrote: > -- >On 21 Nov 2001, at 2:02, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > This is nothing new for long-time subscribers to this list. > > As Eric Hughes kept saying when I first got here in 1994, > > it is immediate and final settlement that attracts the > > capital and payment system markets to cryptographic > > protocols like Chaum's blind signatures, and not > > particularly anonymity. > >People want immediate and final settlement when purchasing >rights over assets. They do not want immediate and final >settlement when purchasing services, or goods that must be >physically delivered. Rather, for physical delivery, they >want the final settlement to be as closely tied to actual >delivery as possible --they want the arbitration provided by >the credit card companies. > > > So, as has ever been the case, whoever builds a robust, > > instantly-settled, identity-independent, > > internet-ubiquitous transaction mechanism that actually > > works in production for assets people want to trade in > > large quantity is going to do quite well for themselves by > > saving the entire economy a whole lot of money > >In such a system, the digital certificates must ultimately >reflect control over assets, in other words they must be >functionally equivalent to bearer bonds and, more >importantly, bearer shares. > >Needless to say, bearer shares are illegal almost everywhere. > >Any system that does what you describe must be located in a >haven, and will be met by great wrath. Nah.. bearer shares are legal for any common Nevada corporation. steve From schear at lvcm.com Fri Nov 23 10:24:58 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:24:58 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011123102452.04ce0e48@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:15 AM 11/22/2001 -0800, David Honig wrote: >At 08:46 PM 11/21/01 -0800, Petro wrote: > > No. Libertarians are for "free markets", which are inherently > >capitalistic in nature, but the reverse is not true. There are many > >*wealthy* capitalists who are all for strongly regulated markets and > >high barriers to entry. One could argue that they are not Capitalists. > >Those are philosophical parasites. Like a congressvermin who campaigns >on liberty and once in office destroys it. A good recent example is Warren Buffett calling for an FDIC-style government insurance against terrorism. In the sweet name of self-interest he proposes that the government increase existing insurance moral hazards by forcing all citizens to underwrite those who have chosen to live or work in higher risk areas. http://www0.mercurycenter.com/premium/opinion/columns/terror20.htm I'M in the insurance business -- an expensive place to be in the past couple of months. It was made costly for Berkshire Hathaway, the company I run, because I did something very dumb: allowed Berkshire to provide insurance coverage for a huge catastrophe loss without its getting a premium for doing so. The risk we unthinkingly assumed was a loss from terrorism. Given the degree of my error, I was lucky: We estimate our Sept. 11 loss at Berkshire to have been ``only'' about $2.3 billion. That's more, by far, than we've ever lost from a single catastrophe, but the toll could have been far larger. Indeed, had a nuclear device been available to Osama bin Laden, the loss could have bankrupted most of the insurance industry. A potential loss of almost infinite magnitude can be assumed only by an entity of almost-infinite resources. That entity doesn't exist in the private sector. Only the U.S. government fits the bill. Washington has accepted this proposition to a point. Congress is now agonizingly trying to create some sort of industry-government coalition that would insure losses from terrorism. Some proposals limit the government's liability but leave the risk for the industry open-ended. These proposals won't work: If unlimited liability is left with insurers, they will necessarily refuse to renew policies they see potentially leading them to bankruptcy. Equally bad, all the proposals now being considered will engender pricing based upon risk exposure: If a business is located in a high-risk spot, it will be asked to pay a staggering price for insurance. Risk-based pricing is normally equitable and desirable. In this case, though, it would have anti-social consequences. For example, the terrorism risk per dollar of insured value may be 10 or more times for iconic or critical properties in New York City what it is for properties in less-populated areas. But great cities are central to our society. We don't want them to wither under the burden of hugely disadvantageous insurance costs. Their citizens almost certainly bear above-normal physical risks in the terrorist war being waged upon us; we shouldn't impose crippling economic costs on them as well. We should adopt the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. as a model for where we want to head in the insurance industry. The rationale for the FDIC, formed 68 years ago, was clear-cut: The United States sorely needed to eliminate bank runs and the financial panics they caused. Before the FDIC, the risk from bank failures resided with depositors, who had no way to shed it. Neither they nor their banks could lay that risk off on private insurers for two reasons. First, the dollar amounts involved were simply too large; second, losses were correlated, in the sense that the failure of a few banks frequently caused a chain reaction, toppling good banks with bad, leaving a mountain of economic damage. Fortunately, these punishing disruptions to our economy were ended by the advent of FDIC insurance. Now, millions of business owners, individuals, landlords and lenders bear the economic risk of terrorist attacks. Insurers won't assume the risk -- we were previously dumb, but we've learned. It isn't right, though, that these risk-laden millions should have to shoulder this burden themselves. If we were to adopt an FDIC model for handling terrorism, the insurance industry would not be permitted to earn a dime from the coverage. Instead, a premium tax, payable to the U.S. Treasury, would be levied on all insurance. This would have the equitable effect of spreading the terrorism-related cost to the country in general, just as we spread defense expenditures. Were such a proposal enacted, it should sharply limit private lawsuits seeking to place blame on some party involved -- an airline, say. We should want the Treasury to make payments to victims solely to compensate them for loss of property, life or direct earnings, without worrying about fault. The law also should cover war losses. Some people will argue that an FDIC model for insurance would be a socialistic intrusion into the private sector, yet that institution is today generally regarded as having been enormously beneficial. Once, the problem was bank runs and economic panics; we found an innovative solution. Today, the problem is terrorism and its capricious effects on insurance costs; we need a solution of comparable efficacy. Warren Buffett is chairman of the board of Berkshire Hathaway Inc., a diversified company with insurance operations, and a director of the Washington Post Co., which has an investment in Berkshire Hathaway. This was written for the Post. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5981 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 23 11:04:47 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 11:04:47 -0800 Subject: You Are Invited To Thanksgiving Dinner At Bill's House Message-ID: <002701c17452$0002ac40$8b0da2cd@vaio> Instructions for Microsoft's New TV Dinner Product: You must first remove the plastic cover. By doing so you agree to accept and honor Microsoft rights to all TV dinners. You may not give anyone else a bite of your dinner (which would constitute an infringement of Microsoft's rights). You may, however, let others smell and look at your dinner and are encouraged to tell them how good it is. If you have a PC microwave oven, insert the dinner into the oven. Set the oven using these keystrokes: mstv.dinn.//08.5min at 50%heat Then enter: ms//start.cook_dindin/yummy\|/yum~yum:-)gohot#cookme. If you have a Macintosh microwave oven, insert the dinner and press start. The oven will set itself and cook the dinner. If you have a Unix microwave oven, insert the dinner, enter the ingredients of the dinner found on the package label, the weight of the dinner, and the desired level of cooking and press start. The oven will calculate the time and heat and cook the dinner exactly to your specification. Be forewarned that Microsoft dinners may crash, in which case your oven must be restarted. This is a simple procedure. Remove the dinner from the oven and enter: ms.nodamn.good/tryagain\again/again.crap This process may have to be repeated. Try unplugging the microwave and then doing a cold reboot. If this doesn't work, contact your oven vendor. The oven itself is obviously on the blink. Many users have reported that the dinner tray is far too big, larger than the dinner itself, having many useless compartments, most of which are empty. These are for future menu items. If the tray is too large to fit in your oven, you will need to upgrade your equipment. Dinners are only available from registered outlets, and only the chicken variety is currently produced. If you want another variety, call Microsoft Help and they will explain that you really don't want another variety. Microsoft Chicken is all you really need. Microsoft has disclosed plans to discontinue all smaller versions of their chicken dinners. Future releases will only be in the larger family size. Excess chicken may be stored for future use, but must be saved only in Microsoft approved packaging. Microsoft promises a dessert with every dinner after '98. However, that version has yet to be released. Users have permission to get thrilled in advance. Microsoft dinners may be incompatible with other dinners in the freezer, causing your freezer to self-defrost. This is a feature, not a bug. Your freezer probably should have been defrosted anyway. CJ Parker http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709 http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM ICQ 138724628 "The True Story Of The InterNet" The Xenix ChainSaw Massacre http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/ WebWorld & The Mythical Circle Of Eunuchs http://www.technopagan.org/politics/webworld/ InfoWar: Final Frontier Of The Digital rEvolution http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/ Space Aliens Hide My Drugs http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4499 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 23 08:05:11 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 11:05:11 -0500 Subject: The Crypto-Financial Paradox Message-ID: At 9:22 AM -0800 on 11/22/01, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > People want immediate and final settlement when purchasing > rights over assets. They do not want immediate and final > settlement when purchasing services, or goods that must be > physically delivered. Rather, for physical delivery, they > want the final settlement to be as closely tied to actual > delivery as possible --they want the arbitration provided by > the credit card companies. Agreed, on all points, but it doesn't presuppose that credit card companies will always be necessary if there's a significantly cheaper alternative. For instance, we've kicked around lots of stuff like internet bearer title to assets in warehouses, or internet bearer bills of lading, which, among other things, allow the secondary trading of a given asset along its entire "chain of custody" until its delivered to the end user. The entire derivative/options/futures markets work this way, remember. A farmer sells his crop in the spring and delivers it to whoever holds the futures contract for the crop sometime in the fall, while the crop itself is re-sold many times in between. As a sidebar, one of the ways Paul Harrison and Mark Tenney (by way of Gene Fama and Fisher Black of course :-)) figured out you can get a completely "state-less" numeraire (currency to those in Palm Beach County) is with an index of various assets that includes assets in storage and transit. > In such a system, the digital certificates must ultimately > reflect control over assets, in other words they must be > functionally equivalent to bearer bonds and, more > importantly, bearer shares. > > Needless to say, bearer shares are illegal almost everywhere. Certainly laws for actual bearer ownership of equity exist in all major markets. Doesn't mean they have to stay that way if a digital bearer form in another market reduces risk adjusted transaction costs that the technology must be adopted in the capital markets as well. > Any system that does what you describe must be located in a > haven, and will be met by great wrath. As people here note all the time, you don't solve such a problem politically. It would be like asking religious leaders to enforce a given nation-state's freedom of religion laws. You solve it technically and economically. In fact, that's the only way to solve it. Regulatory arbitrage, using havens, is a pipe-dream in the long run, even though HavenCo seems to have done a fine existence proof of the canary in a coal mine. But, if transactions are cheaper when they're using an asset transfer protocol which is identity-independent, then even laws about bearer shares will have to change or governments will end up killing their host economies. More to the point, so much money has to be made that governments get *more* gross tax revenue with bearer transactions in their capital markets than they do with book-entries, or if revenue is reduced, that the operating cost of government falls so much (through a loss of pure transaction fraud) that the state has more to spend on other parts of the government, whatever that may be... In the meantime, it is possible, at least at the moment, to do a bearer transaction on the net even for assets that appreciate, using unsponsored depository receipts. The underwriter has to be the material owners of the shares and bonds in question, which is ugly, but, done that way, the bearer certificates on the net representing those assets can be instantly converted into a private holding belonging to someone else with a brokerage account at any time. Exchangeability is just about the most important thing there is in a financial instrument, and that, I believe, is why we don't have internet bearer transactions today. Like I said elsewhere, it isn't the law, per se, that is the problem so much. People have worked out the legal problems to their satisfaction. Or at least that was the case until September 11th, which, as I said, people are starting to turn the corner on. Even right now, as far as I can read the new legislation and regulations passed since WTC, you can obey all the laws about cash and securities and put something out on the net, that people can use to lower their transaction cost, to do instantaneous transactions, and so on, that incorporates blind signatures, and as secure as you want to make them, including good-enough two-way anonymity. Furthermore, the technical, even the legal, cost of doing so keeps going down, and, eventually, somebody's just going to do it to see what happens, if for no other reason to see what the economics of it all is. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 23 08:05:30 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 11:05:30 -0500 Subject: Nov. 26: Barry Hurewitz, HIIP Seminar on Privacy... Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From adam.brett at mail.internetseer.com Fri Nov 23 08:47:38 2001 From: adam.brett at mail.internetseer.com (adam.brett at mail.internetseer.com) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 11:47:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: We are Unable to Reach your Web Page Message-ID: <2479625.1006534058432.JavaMail.promon@pm68> There appears to be a problem in reaching the following Web page from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.99.04.05-99.04.11/msg00345.html Error: Time Out This error is most commonly due to an Internet connection problem and does not necessarily indicate that your server is down. As recommended by the robot Guidelines, this email is to explain our research activity and to alert you about the connectivity error we encountered. InternetSeer, the world's largest web site monitoring service, does not store or publish the content of your pages, but rather uses the information to update our ongoing Web Connectivity Study. To learn more about our study results or to request InternetSeer to continue monitoring your Web site in this way, visit: http://scclick.internetseer.com/sitecheck/clickthrough.jsp?I5s57h5e5i5g5l5o52R5s6vKzGuq4RPNWyQx5vVLyzPMXI5dzxY5a_wC53U5pXTxy5p5b5cKTU5dXIMx5awHR5d6vNN5b_ANXMwyUHSW5bVSw5b5o5l5b5f5g5b5f5h5a5o5l5b5f5g5b5g5d5cNzM5f5c5g5j5h5bQxHI52P5s5d=e3 If you find this information about the availability of your Web site useful, we would appreciate your feedback. Should you prefer not to receive these error notices in the future please let us know by replying to this email and placing "remove" in the subject line. You will be removed from receiving further email error notices. Adam Brett Analyst Manager cs-adam.brett at mail.internetseer.com InternetSeer.com "Your Remote Web Site Monitor" http://www.internetseer.com PS. We will send you a courtesy email when we are able to reach your Web page again. ##cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com## -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3168 bytes Desc: not available URL: From contactus at collectiondirectory.com Fri Nov 23 12:04:14 2001 From: contactus at collectiondirectory.com (Customer Service) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 12:04:14 -0800 Subject: Attention Collection Industry Profesionals Message-ID: <200111232004.fANK4Ei18724@ak47.algebra.com> * In the Spirit of America and Friendship to the Credit and Collection Community " This is an Exclusive Offer for Members of the Collection Community: * Join the Collection Agency and Attorney Directory that is seen by More Businesses than any Other! 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(Which states "A statement that further transmissions of unsolicited commercial electronic mail to the recipient by the person who initiates transmission of the message may be stopped at no cost to the recipient by sending a reply to the originating electronic mail address with the word 'remove' in the subject line.") From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 23 12:29:49 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 12:29:49 -0800 Subject: Denning on Denning's Geo-crypto In-Reply-To: <200111221223.tvqd4o.u9c.37kbi1o@niles.mail.mindspring.net> References: Message-ID: -- From newsletter at gamblerdepot.com Fri Nov 23 13:02:44 2001 From: newsletter at gamblerdepot.com (newsletter at gamblerdepot.com) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 13:02:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: PaiGow Tournament & 30% Bonus At Cherry Casino! Message-ID: <200111232102.fANL2iB63335@srv54.server4me.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7905 bytes Desc: not available URL: From petro at bounty.org Fri Nov 23 15:43:29 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 15:43:29 -0800 Subject: in praise of gold In-Reply-To: <200111210112.UAA17052@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 20, 2001, at 05:12 PM, Faustine wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > David wrote: > George wrote: >>> 5) Gold makes women sleep with you. I don't know why they >>> like it, but they do. >> They sleep with you because of your large cattle herd only they >> have accepted abstracted value and settle for gold or stocks... > Not all women are golddiggers. I happen to think any woman who marries > for money or sleeps around for gifts and dinners is worse than a whore. > As the old saw goes, at least real prostitutes are honest about what > they're > doing. It might be more than just wealth these women are after. A man with fat herds, or a fat wallet can better provide for children than a man with a single battered old goat, or an empty wallet. And over emphasized secondary sexual characteristics might, at the subconscious level be linked with better child-producing abilities. > The only "abstracted value" I find really intriguing is the quality of > a man's mind. Everything else is entirely beside the point. You have no > idea > how often I get hit on by so-called "attractive" men--and I'm quite > proud to say > I've never dated even one of them. I'd prefer a fat cranky old genius > over a > rich businessman or male model anyday! You don't know how many men on this list you just gave hope to. -- Pain looks good on other people. It's what they're for. --Sisters of Mercy From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 23 16:02:10 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 16:02:10 -0800 Subject: Anonymizing Scam Message-ID: Below are strange statements coming from Lance Cottrell. Is there no anonymizer that is not sucking up to the TLAs? Worse, has there ever been? ----- http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/11/20/privacy.reut/index.html One company that is still making money off privacy is Anonymizer.com, a San Diego-based company that offers anonymous Web surfing for $50 a year, or $5 a month. The company has 20,000 active subscribers, said President Lance Cottrell. "We're still seeing very strong growth," Cottrell said. "Most people are looking to prevent their boss, insurance company, spouse, ISP (Internet Service Provider) from knowing where they're going." Even so, Anonymizer.com began a push six months ago to market its service to corporations, including law and investigation firms, and the U.S. government, he said. "Intelligence agencies have been using us for years, especially since September 11," Cottrell said. "They use us to keep an eye on bad guy sites" with covert monitoring. ----- The pattern: initial big deal about helping the public protect its privacy, then boom, a later revelation it was impossible to continue ... well, the reasons vary, but the cover story is always the need for money, the Judas rationale. Meanwhile, the fabulous surfing data archive allegedly inviolate, or never retained, or no way to ever know who was using the service, that is the data all free-gift marketers aim to collect. Were any anonymizing archives ever trashed or truly protected against concurrent snarfing? Is Safeweb laughing like ZKS, like Lance? First, the US, then EU, then CN, all the way to MD. What does this say about commercial anonymizing services, and remailers? And crypto, especially free PGP, and the honeypot AES? From k8904 at orgio.net Fri Nov 23 13:30:17 2001 From: k8904 at orgio.net (k8904 at orgio.net) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 16:30:17 -0500 Subject: New and Improved! 14017 Message-ID: <000021350f12$0000788f$000036c1@mail.md> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1428 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 23 17:31:01 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 17:31:01 -0800 Subject: Biowar in CT and NY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, November 23, 2001, at 06:46 PM, John Young wrote: > > > I've not seen any mention of Plum Island in connection > with the anthrax case, and mammals usually are not a source > of the inhalation type, but could be transporters of the powder. > > Still, it would not be surprising that Plum has been doing > research with a variety of animal-borne diseases for that is > what it was set up to do several decades ago. > One of my favorite novelists is Neslon DeMille ("Word of Honor," "The Gold Coast," etc.). His novel "Plum Island" is set on and around that site, and gives valuable background. > Critics have questioned why the laboratory has been allowed > to continue to operate within the New York Megalopolis. But > the same is said of Brookhaven National Laboratory, located > not far away. Only scientific illiterates would worry about Brookhaven. ("I saw Meryl Streep on "Oprah" and she was talking about how they smash atoms out there at that Brookhaven place. I mean, like what if some of those pieces of atoms flew out and hit people?") > --Tim May "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound" From faustine at lokmail.net Fri Nov 23 15:01:50 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 18:01:50 -0500 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. Message-ID: <200111232301.SAA13186@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 3223 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 23 18:46:49 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 18:46:49 -0800 Subject: Biowar in CT and NY In-Reply-To: <200111232301.SAA13186@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: What's underplayed about Tobiason's CD is his argument that people have a right to know how to protect themselves against biological attack, especially the "accidental" kind. The Connecticut victim of anthrax lived due west of Plum Island, which is located off the coast of Long Island, and is a controversial laboratory which does classified research on animal diseases. Locals have protested for years about its activities. One favorite complaint is that wild animals on the island get infected and then swim across Long Island Sound to Connecticut or across an narrow inlet to the LI mainland. Deers swim the sound; rodents, squirrels and rabbits swim the inlet; and birds fly everywhere up and down the coast and inland. The laboratory's officials claim there is no threat to the public, that their research only involves foot and mouth disease. Nobody believes that for infected deer have turned up in CT and small mammals and birds on Long Island. I've not seen any mention of Plum Island in connection with the anthrax case, and mammals usually are not a source of the inhalation type, but could be transporters of the powder. Still, it would not be surprising that Plum has been doing research with a variety of animal-borne diseases for that is what it was set up to do several decades ago. Critics have questioned why the laboratory has been allowed to continue to operate within the New York Megalopolis. But the same is said of Brookhaven National Laboratory, located not far away. Biolobical scientists who have visited the facility have reported to scientific colloquia at the American Museum of Natural History inManhattan that weird and scary stuff happens on Plum Island -- disease, germs, insects, pests within pests within peculiar parasitical containers waterborne, airborne and human-borne. Even military visitors reportedly come away shaken. From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Nov 23 16:47:51 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 18:47:51 -0600 Subject: in praise of gold References: Message-ID: <3BFEEE17.3082FBA9@cybershamanix.com> Petro wrote: > > It might be more than just wealth these women are after. A man with > fat herds, or a fat wallet can better provide for children than a man > with a single battered old goat, or an empty wallet. And over emphasized > secondary sexual characteristics might, at the subconscious level be > linked with better child-producing abilities. On a long road trip one night, I heard an extremely interesting long discussion amongst a group of psychiatrists, sociologists, and other scientists, regarding a study which showed, firstly, that large numbers of attractive young women married unattractive, frequently older, boring, but financially well-off men. No surprise, that, eh? But then, the study showed, that a large percentage of these same women also tended to have adulterous relationships with what was termed "dangerous" men -- losers, outlaws, reckless adventurers, etc. Another surprise was that this was a cross-cultural phenomenon, and the gist of the discussion was that this wasn't merely thrill seeking or whatever on the part of the women, but was actually subconscious darwinism in action, i.e., the woman formed the permanent alliance with the man who could best support her offspring, then got herself impregnated by the males with the strongest, sexiest, genetic makeup -- thereby insuring that not only would her children survive, but they, like their true father (and also like the mother) would be very attractive and likely to mate. An extremely interesting idea. Some might find the articles in the most recent Wired about the high percentages of autism among Silicon Valley children to be interesting -- -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 23 16:13:33 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:13:33 -0500 Subject: Cattle Herding... (was Re: in praise of gold) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pecunia, the latin word for money, comes from the Etruscian pecu, meaning, cow. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From mean-green at hushmail.com Fri Nov 23 19:15:33 2001 From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:15:33 -0800 Subject: Passive three dimensional track of non-cooperative targets through opportunistic use of global positioning system (GPS) and GLONASS signals Message-ID: <200111240315.fAO3FXn20546@mailserver1.hushmail.com> US Pat. 6,232,922 Passive three dimensional track of non-cooperative targets through opportunistic use of global positioning system (GPS) and GLONASS signals Abstract A method and apparatus for utilization of GPS, GLONASS or other existing RF signals is disclosed. These existing RF signals are scattered by targets, with a receiver of these scattered signals providing processing to extract three dimensional track of these objects. Angle-of-Arrival (AOA) information of a received signal may be used, but is not required. Modifications of standard GPS signal processing allows observables such as range-sum, range-difference, and bistatic Doppler frequency to be observed. These observables, when coupled with standard bistatic/multistatic location equations, provide unambiguous and even redundant information on target coordinates. The method/device employs a modified code (range)/carrier(Doppler) search routine for initial target search/acquisition, wherein a direct path signal is used as a reference from which chip delay and Doppler shift excursions are examined. In this manner, the range and Doppler components observed will correspond to [rang! e-sum-direct path] range, and true bistatic target Doppler irrespective of the satellite or receiver induced Doppler shifts. From ac76 at pacbell.net Fri Nov 23 20:23:10 2001 From: ac76 at pacbell.net (ac76 at pacbell.net) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 20:23:10 Subject: Refinancing, Second Mortgage, Home Improvement 7654 Message-ID: <200111240028.JAA81080@dpi.daewoo.co.kr> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2495 bytes Desc: not available URL: From faustine at lokmail.net Fri Nov 23 17:41:47 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 20:41:47 -0500 Subject: in praise of gold Message-ID: <200111240141.UAA29735@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 4039 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 23 20:56:09 2001 From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 20:56:09 -0800 Subject: Do Not Open - Bills Bills Bill Message-ID: <003b01c174a4$56ecc2a0$cb0da2cd@vaio> Microsoft Internal Error [31773246] Do Not Open CJ Parker http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709 http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM ICQ 138724628 "The True Story Of The InterNet" The Xenix ChainSaw Massacre http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/ WebWorld & The Mythical Circle Of Eunuchs http://www.technopagan.org/politics/webworld/ InfoWar: Final Frontier Of The Digital rEvolution http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/ Space Aliens Hide My Drugs http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1401 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 23 21:20:21 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 21:20:21 -0800 Subject: Biowar in CT and NY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The US Department of Agriculture Plum Island Animal Disease Center says: http://www.ars.usda.gov/plum/ "The Plum Island Animal Disease Center is a Biosafety Level 3 (BSL-3) facility designed and constructed to work with the most dangerous animal diseases in the world, such as foot-and-mouth disease (FMD), Rinderpest, and African swine fever. In fact, by federal law, Plum Island is the only place in the U.S. where FMD and Rinderpest viruses can be studied. As a BSL-3 facility, PIADC already has in place state-of-the-art biosafety practices and procedures to prevent a disease organism from escaping into the environment, including stringent and rigorously observed safety measures within the laboratories themselves." ... still, "Plum Island, N.Y., Sept. 5, 2000 The U.S. Department of Agricultures Plum Island Animal Disease Center (PIADC) has created a forum groupfor public affairs and safety and emergency preparedness, to provide new conduits for communication with the centers neighbors. The forum includes eight local officials who represent communities in New York and Connecticut within commuting distance of Plum Island. The forum will initially meet once a month with USDA scientists and other staff as part of an ongoing dialogue on the centers research activities, responsibilities, and general operations." ... so, did a forum member track the virus home to CT? Probably not: "Visitors: * Must sign a personal recognizance statement undertaking to abide by the Safety Rules. * Must take a shower and follow personal decontamination procedures when exiting biocontainment Building 101. * Who have been in biocontainment must observe a self-imposed quarantine, meaning they cannot be around livestock, zoos or circuses for 5 days after coming out of biocontainment. (This does not include dogs and cats.) " ... but, "In October 1991, all operation and maintenance activities were privatized, transferring to a contractor (under USDA supervision) all personnel involved in these activities. Currently the operations and maintenance of the PIADC are conducted through a contract with LB&B Associates, Inc., headquartered in Columbia, Md. LB&B is a minority, woman-owned business." From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Fri Nov 23 21:26:54 2001 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 21:26:54 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011123211746.036b23e0@bivens.parrhesia.com> At 04:38 AM 11/24/2001 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >The main question is again whether there exists an initial market which >could be enticed into trying out this package on an experimental basis. What we're missing here is a party who's got a strong reputation and a deep balance sheet who's willing to offer to exchange, on a stable long-term basis, the hypothetical e-cash for something of value - dollars, gold, disk space, professional advice, whatever. In a mature market, that role isn't necessarily played by one big participant, but by many small ones - e.g., the US government won't give me gold for my dollars, but lots of coin stores will, and besides, I've had pretty good luck exchanging my dollars for food, housing, computers, etc, in pretty stable fashion. Until participants think that their time and investment made available to this system are reasonably likely to be available to them as outputs of one form or another, it'll be just another amusing hobby, like the existing P2P distribution systems (Gnutella, Napster, Morpheus/KaZaa, Mojo Nation, Freenet, etc). I'd be willing to make resources I've got on hand available in exchange for less-well-known currencies, assuming I can have some confidence that the lesser-known currency will itself be exchangable for something that I want. (I experimented with auctioning some items for grams of gold on but didn't get any bids, and subsequently sold them for appreciably more in US dollars elsewhere, though some of that's probably due to GoldBarter's low profile versus Amazon and Ebay.) -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 4000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace. From measl at mfn.org Fri Nov 23 19:37:05 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 21:37:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Insurance Co. / Goverment Collusion (was: Crypto Winter) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011123102452.04ce0e48@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Steve Schear told us that Warren Buffett wrote: > A good recent example is Warren Buffett calling for an FDIC-style > government insurance against terrorism. In the sweet name of self-interest > he proposes that the government increase existing insurance moral hazards > by forcing all citizens to underwrite those who have chosen to live or work > in higher risk areas. > > http://www0.mercurycenter.com/premium/opinion/columns/terror20.htm > I'M in the insurance business -- an expensive place to be in the past > couple of months. It was made costly for Berkshire Hathaway, the company I > run, because I did something very dumb: allowed Berkshire to provide > insurance coverage for a huge catastrophe loss without its getting a > premium for doing so. The risk we unthinkingly assumed was a loss from > terrorism. And, as you say, it was an unthinking act - for which ONLY you (as a company) should be responsible. > Given the degree of my error, I was lucky: We estimate our Sept. 11 loss at > Berkshire to have been ``only'' about $2.3 billion. That's more, by far, > than we've ever lost from a single catastrophe, but the toll could have > been far larger. Indeed, had a nuclear device been available to Osama bin > Laden, the loss could have bankrupted most of the insurance industry. I'll cry for them - not. The insurance industry has it pretty sweet. They are specifically exempted from anti-trust laws, and are pretty much free to do as they please. I seriously doubt there is a person on this list who has not been screwed at least once by the insurance industry. > A potential loss of almost infinite magnitude can be assumed only by an > entity of almost-infinite resources. That entity doesn't exist in the > private sector. Only the U.S. government fits the bill. Then the industry should cease to write these policies. > Washington has accepted this proposition to a point. Congress is now > agonizingly trying to create some sort of industry-government coalition > that would insure losses from terrorism. Like I said, the insurance industry has a pretty sweet deal... > Some proposals limit the government's liability but leave the risk for the > industry open-ended. These proposals won't work: If unlimited liability is > left with insurers, they will necessarily refuse to renew policies they see > potentially leading them to bankruptcy. As it should be. > Equally bad, all the proposals now being considered will engender pricing > based upon risk exposure: Um, pardon me, but isn't the assesment of risk what the industry does for a living? Or are they hereby admitting that they in fact operate on some other basis? > If a business is located in a high-risk spot, it > will be asked to pay a staggering price for insurance. Again, as it should be. > Risk-based pricing > is normally equitable and desirable. Of course: the insurance industry is merely a form of gambling, and as such, needs to "balance their book", i.e., charge based on likely risk of loss. > In this case, though, it would have > anti-social consequences. You mean it would have *anti insurance industry* consequences. At least be honest here. > For example, the terrorism risk per dollar of insured value may be 10 or > more times for iconic or critical properties in New York City what it is > for properties in less-populated areas. Which of course will have to be factored into the rents/leases/development plans/etc. One of the many reasons people move away from cities is the very significant drop in insurance rates (based on risk of loss in the flight areas of course. My rates dropped by almost 2/3rd when I left the city). > But great cities are central to our > society. We don't want them to wither under the burden of hugely > disadvantageous insurance costs. Then the industry will have to either adjust their rates to distribute the risk across their entire subscriber group, or charge what they need to, and let the cities worry about themselves. > Their citizens almost certainly bear > above-normal physical risks in the terrorist war being waged upon us; agreed: by both the terrorists from abroad and the terrorists from within (USG/State Gov, Local Gov/asstd corrupt LEO orgs). > we > shouldn't impose crippling economic costs on them as well. Too late. These costs are already levied on those who live in cities. If they don't like it, they can (and will) move to a place where conditions are more amenable to their lifestyle and financial situation. Why should I subsidize someone elses risk so they can live in a [high crime / highly attractive terrorist target]. These are life choices made by people who choose to live in these places - it is not my job to pay their way disproportionally. > We should adopt the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. as a model for where we > want to head in the insurance industry. Yeah, right. This is the outfit that allowed the S&L debacle of the 80's to thrive. I am not keen to using a model of modern corruption as a model for anything else that I have to [also] pay for. > The rationale for the FDIC, formed > 68 years ago, was clear-cut: The United States sorely needed to eliminate > bank runs and the financial panics they caused. Before the FDIC, the risk > from bank failures resided with depositors, who had no way to shed it. Again, as it should be. Now of course, the FDIC and it's ilk have created a situation where "banks" can bilk billions of dollars from those who don't even do business with them (through the forced application of force to collect the "taxes" which pay for the likes of the FDIC. If bankers were responsible for their own fuck ups, we'd have a much better banking system. > Neither they nor their banks could lay that risk off on private insurers > for two reasons. First, the dollar amounts involved were simply too large; > second, losses were correlated, in the sense that the failure of a few > banks frequently caused a chain reaction, toppling good banks with bad, > leaving a mountain of economic damage. This is simple bullshit. If the insurance industry wants to provide insurance with collosal risk, they can simply charge collosal premiums. > Fortunately, these punishing > disruptions to our economy were ended by the advent of FDIC insurance. And then reintroduced by the FDIC encouraged "bailout". > Now, millions of business owners, individuals, landlords and lenders bear > the economic risk of terrorist attacks. So? The assumption of risk is a business decision, like all others. It must balance many different things, including the risk of terrorists, police officer payouts, consumer confidence/spending, and a myriad of other things. If the risk of financial loss is greater than the risk of financial gain, then you do the business. Otherwise, you don't - unless this logical balance is disturbed by the kind of drivel we are seeing here (the requiring of those [relatively] not in risk to assume the risk of the person who is *supposed* to be balancing these diverse risks him/herself. > Insurers won't assume the risk -- > we were previously dumb, but we've learned. Dumb? No. The actuaries merely underestimated the actual level of risk, and as a result the industry had to payout. Thats what it is all about. > It isn't right, though, that > these risk-laden millions should have to shoulder this burden themselves. Why not? Be precise: what's "not right" about making a person assume the risks of their own actions? > If we were to adopt an FDIC model for handling terrorism, the insurance > industry would not be permitted to earn a dime from the coverage. Instead, > a premium tax, payable to the U.S. Treasury, would be levied on all > insurance. This would have the equitable effect of spreading the > terrorism-related cost to the country in general, just as we spread defense > expenditures. Or, as I pointed out above, the industry can do this for themselves. It is not governments place to be acting as an insurance business: this is forcing those of us who do not believe the assumption of the insurance risk is a wise move to participate in it anyway, usually to the detriment of those who [as business persons as well as individuals] would NEVER consider underwriting these risks. This is theft, pure and simple. > Were such a proposal enacted, it should sharply limit private lawsuits > seeking to place blame on some party involved -- an airline, say. We should > want the Treasury to make payments to victims solely to compensate them for > loss of property, life or direct earnings, without worrying about fault. Yeah, right: look at what "no fault insurance" did to places like New York... > The law also should cover war losses. Huh? Oh yeah, I get it. If the USG "covers" war losses, there will likely be less concern and flack from Joe Six. > Some people will argue that an FDIC model for insurance would be a > socialistic intrusion into the private sector, yet that institution is > today generally regarded as having been enormously beneficial. By whom? > Once, the > problem was bank runs and economic panics; we found an innovative solution. Theft under threat of violence is hardly an "innovative solution". > Today, the problem is terrorism Agreed. When governments stop practicing terrorism, it will no longer be a problem which can claim a moral high ground, and the incidenc will likely decline. Until then, if the insurance industry wishes the public to underwrite their losses, then they had better be prepared to also hand over any profits. > and its capricious effects on insurance > costs; we need a solution of comparable efficacy. Actuaries. Cost == risk. > Warren Buffett is chairman of the board of Berkshire Hathaway Inc., a > diversified company with insurance operations, and a director of the > Washington Post Co., which has an investment in Berkshire Hathaway. This > was written for the Post. Bullshit. This was written for the insurance industry. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net Fri Nov 23 20:48:27 2001 From: njohnsn at IowaTelecom.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:48:27 -0600 Subject: Cybercrime treaty signed. Message-ID: <001301c174a3$424390a0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Just Thought I'd beat James Choate to the punch (hee hee). http://press.coe.int/cp/2001/875a(2001).htm - Neil M. Johnson mailto:njohnsn at iowatelecom.net From nobody at dizum.com Fri Nov 23 14:10:08 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:10:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Anonymizing Scam Message-ID: John Young writes: > Below are strange statements coming from Lance Cottrell. > Is there no anonymizer that is not sucking up to the TLAs? > Worse, has there ever been? Are you implying that Lance Cottrell is making anonymous surfing data available to security agencies? That is a strong accusation and if you want to make it, you should do so explicitly. You are calling him a liar and a fraud. Nothing in the article you quote gives you any foundation for such a claim. All it says is that agencies are using Anonymizer to browse anonymously, just like its other customers. Any crypto technology, if it is truly useful, can be used by government agencies as well as others. One might as well accuse you of conspiracy since cryptome often serves TLAs: You fraud! You are saving people's access patterns to your files and making them available to the police! How dare you! These accusations are as unfounded as those you made against Lance. Those who make such claims should provide evidence and not innuendo. > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/11/20/privacy.reut/index.html > > One company that is still making money off privacy is > Anonymizer.com, a San Diego-based company that offers > anonymous Web surfing for $50 a year, or $5 a month. The > company has 20,000 active subscribers, said President Lance > Cottrell. > > "We're still seeing very strong growth," Cottrell said. "Most > people are looking to prevent their boss, insurance company, > spouse, ISP (Internet Service Provider) from knowing where > they're going." > > Even so, Anonymizer.com began a push six months ago to > market its service to corporations, including law and investigation > firms, and the U.S. government, he said. > > "Intelligence agencies have been using us for years, especially > since September 11," Cottrell said. "They use us to keep an eye > on bad guy sites" with covert monitoring. > > ----- > > The pattern: initial big deal about helping the public protect its > privacy, then boom, a later revelation it was impossible to > continue ... well, the reasons vary, but the cover story is always > the need for money, the Judas rationale. > > Meanwhile, the fabulous surfing data archive allegedly inviolate, or > never retained, or no way to ever know who was using the > service, that is the data all free-gift marketers aim to collect. > > Were any anonymizing archives ever trashed or truly protected > against concurrent snarfing? Is Safeweb laughing like ZKS, > like Lance? First, the US, then EU, then CN, all the way to > MD. > > What does this say about commercial anonymizing services, > and remailers? And crypto, especially free PGP, and the honeypot > AES? From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 23 23:28:53 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:28:53 -0800 Subject: Biowar in CT and NY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The New York anthrax death occurred about 30 miles west of Plum Island, in The Bronx, which is located at the western end of Long Island Sound. The Oxford, CT death is about 10 miles northwest of Plum Island, near the Long Island Sound coast. No other federal laboratory dealing with hazardous virii is as close to these death locations as PIADC. Virii are regularly shipped into and out of the Center; the Center boasts of how carefully the dangerous transport is monitored. Photos at the Center's Web site show an African-American deliveryman carrying bio-hazard packages. Most of the other personnel in the Center's photos are pinkish, but that could be a coincidence. Wonder where that deliveryman lives, Harlem, The Bronx? In a shack among millionaires in the Hamptons? Does he have grievances? Would he be an admirer of Malcolm X? Who is LB&B, operator of Plum Island? All the gov personnel were assigned to the firm when the operation was privatized. The firm is doing $B business with federal agencies from DoD to NASA to gov contractors all around the nation. Must have lots of high-tech immigrants working for justice and fair play. And maybe some former gov employees not altogether happy with the new bosses financial affairs. Couldn't find a Web site for LB&B on Google, but dozens of citations for work with others as "small business" partners. Wonder if the firm does work for the Postal Service? From freematt at coil.com Fri Nov 23 20:45:04 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:45:04 -0500 Subject: Order Now: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier Message-ID: [Note from Matt: I made a small wager in palladium that Vinge's True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier would be available to order prior to Jan. 1, 2002 with a well known Cypherpunk. And I won. Acct# 101893.] At 3:03 AM -0700 8/13/01, Well known Cypherpunk wrote: >Subject: Re: BTW- I'll bet you... > >OK - Done deal, if you'll accept the modification that it be >orderable and shippable by Amazon or other on-line bookstore >within a week after that. True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier by Vernor Vinge, James Frenkel (Editor) List Price: $14.95 Our Price: $11.96 You Save: $2.99 (20%) This item will be published in December 2001. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives. See larger photo This item qualifies for free shipping on orders over $99! Click for details Great Buy Buy True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Fron... with The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge today! Total List Price: $42.90 Buy Together Today: $31.52 You Save: $11.38 Paperback - 384 pages (December 2001) Tor Books; ISBN: 0312862075 Amazon.com Sales Rank: 28,271 ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From gallerie at email.com Fri Nov 23 20:46:31 2001 From: gallerie at email.com (Art Distributor) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:46:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fine Art Special Offer 828 Message-ID: <20011124044631.D225CB01E5@dell.fx.ro> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Fri Nov 23 20:59:28 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:59:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Nov 2001, Anonymous wrote: > It seemed that part of MojoNation's reason for backing away > from mojo-as-money was the problem of fairly giving an initial allocation. Do you know this because you've communicated with the Mojo team, are they on record about it, is this speculation, your inference from events, or something else? Please don't take that the wrong way - I don't doubt your integrity. It's an interesting suggestion and I'm just wondering where it came from. > The main question is again whether there exists an initial market which > could be enticed into trying out this package on an experimental basis. Perhaps one initial market might be one of the web sites which offer people a chance to connect with "experts" in various fields. One such web site solicited me based in part on postings to sci.crypt (guess that was good for something, after all). I tried it out, but found the interface too cumbersome and had qualms about being billed as an "expert" (it wasn't clear to me what guarantees were being made, and I didn't have time to do a proper job anyway). I regret I've forgotten the name. Anyone know if these sites are still working? -David From lcottrell at anonymizer.com Sat Nov 24 00:15:16 2001 From: lcottrell at anonymizer.com (Lance M. Cottrell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 00:15:16 -0800 Subject: Anonymizing Scam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Given how widely know my email address is, I am saddened that people would post this kind of unsubstantiated rumor without any attempt to check on the validity. Anonymizer has always offered its services to all comers. This has always included law enforcement. They have used our services to keep an eye on certain websites for many years, without tipping them off to the focus of their interests. Seeing "fbi.gov" in the log files is a bit of a giveaway. They have no special access to our systems, and no ability to monitor our users. Describing our policy of open access as "sucking up to the TLAs" is absurd. I would have thought my history in this field would have earned me some consideration before jumping to that kind of conclusion. Does government and industry have no rights to, or needs for, privacy? It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to take. -Lance Cottrell At 5:34 PM -0500 11/23/01, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >--- begin forwarded text > > >Status: U >Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 16:02:10 -0800 >To: cypherpunks at lne.com >From: John Young >Subject: Anonymizing Scam >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com > >Below are strange statements coming from Lance Cottrell. >Is there no anonymizer that is not sucking up to the TLAs? >Worse, has there ever been? > >----- > > >http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/11/20/privacy.reut/index.html > >One company that is still making money off privacy is >Anonymizer.com, a San Diego-based company that offers >anonymous Web surfing for $50 a year, or $5 a month. The >company has 20,000 active subscribers, said President Lance >Cottrell. > >"We're still seeing very strong growth," Cottrell said. "Most >people are looking to prevent their boss, insurance company, >spouse, ISP (Internet Service Provider) from knowing where >they're going." > >Even so, Anonymizer.com began a push six months ago to >market its service to corporations, including law and investigation >firms, and the U.S. government, he said. > >"Intelligence agencies have been using us for years, especially >since September 11," Cottrell said. "They use us to keep an eye >on bad guy sites" with covert monitoring. > >----- > >The pattern: initial big deal about helping the public protect its >privacy, then boom, a later revelation it was impossible to >continue ... well, the reasons vary, but the cover story is always >the need for money, the Judas rationale. > >Meanwhile, the fabulous surfing data archive allegedly inviolate, or >never retained, or no way to ever know who was using the >service, that is the data all free-gift marketers aim to collect. > >Were any anonymizing archives ever trashed or truly protected >against concurrent snarfing? Is Safeweb laughing like ZKS, >like Lance? First, the US, then EU, then CN, all the way to >MD. > >What does this say about commercial anonymizing services, >and remailers? And crypto, especially free PGP, and the honeypot >AES? > >--- end forwarded text > > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' -- Lance M. Cottrell lcottrell at anonymizer.com Anonymizer, Inc. President Voice: (619) 725-3180 X304 Fax: (619) 725-3188 www.Anonymizer.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From lcottrell at anonymizer.com Sat Nov 24 00:15:16 2001 From: lcottrell at anonymizer.com (Lance M. Cottrell) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 00:15:16 -0800 Subject: Anonymizing Scam Message-ID: Given how widely know my email address is, I am saddened that people would post this kind of unsubstantiated rumor without any attempt to check on the validity. Anonymizer has always offered its services to all comers. This has always included law enforcement. They have used our services to keep an eye on certain websites for many years, without tipping them off to the focus of their interests. Seeing "fbi.gov" in the log files is a bit of a giveaway. They have no special access to our systems, and no ability to monitor our users. Describing our policy of open access as "sucking up to the TLAs" is absurd. I would have thought my history in this field would have earned me some consideration before jumping to that kind of conclusion. Does government and industry have no rights to, or needs for, privacy? It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to take. -Lance Cottrell At 5:34 PM -0500 11/23/01, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >--- begin forwarded text > > >Status: U >Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 16:02:10 -0800 >To: cypherpunks at lne.com >From: John Young >Subject: Anonymizing Scam >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com > >Below are strange statements coming from Lance Cottrell. >Is there no anonymizer that is not sucking up to the TLAs? >Worse, has there ever been? > >----- > > >http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/11/20/privacy.reut/index.html > >One company that is still making money off privacy is >Anonymizer.com, a San Diego-based company that offers >anonymous Web surfing for $50 a year, or $5 a month. The >company has 20,000 active subscribers, said President Lance >Cottrell. > >"We're still seeing very strong growth," Cottrell said. "Most >people are looking to prevent their boss, insurance company, >spouse, ISP (Internet Service Provider) from knowing where >they're going." > >Even so, Anonymizer.com began a push six months ago to >market its service to corporations, including law and investigation >firms, and the U.S. government, he said. > >"Intelligence agencies have been using us for years, especially >since September 11," Cottrell said. "They use us to keep an eye >on bad guy sites" with covert monitoring. > >----- > >The pattern: initial big deal about helping the public protect its >privacy, then boom, a later revelation it was impossible to >continue ... well, the reasons vary, but the cover story is always >the need for money, the Judas rationale. > >Meanwhile, the fabulous surfing data archive allegedly inviolate, or >never retained, or no way to ever know who was using the >service, that is the data all free-gift marketers aim to collect. > >Were any anonymizing archives ever trashed or truly protected >against concurrent snarfing? Is Safeweb laughing like ZKS, >like Lance? First, the US, then EU, then CN, all the way to >MD. > >What does this say about commercial anonymizing services, >and remailers? And crypto, especially free PGP, and the honeypot >AES? > >--- end forwarded text > > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' -- Lance M. Cottrell lcottrell at anonymizer.com Anonymizer, Inc. President Voice: (619) 725-3180 X304 Fax: (619) 725-3188 www.Anonymizer.com From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Sat Nov 24 00:46:30 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 02:46:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks Message-ID: <0d6fafaebf85a51371fc55c21b6abb9e@mixmaster.nullify.org> David Molnar wrote: > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Anonymous wrote: > > > than using your Visa card because only the seller learns your address > > rather than a centralized agency that knows all of your purchases. > > But it's hardly worth it. > > A friend of mine was considering a business plan for physical remailer+ > "infomediary" for a class project a year or two ago. Precisely to get > around this problem. Sell learns the remailer's address. More than a few > remailers and you can chain them, etc. etc. Unfortunately U.S. postal regulations require identification when you rent a mail box, public or private. See http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/audio/private_mail_box.htm: Recent amendments to postal regulations will make it harder for criminals to victimize innocent consumers by using mail drops. Anyone renting a box from a commercial mail-receiving agency such as Mail Boxers, Etc., Parcel Post, and Postnet will be required to provide two forms of ID, one being a photo ID. It won't do much good to chain them if each one in the chain has your ID on file. Granted you can use fake ID but that would be breaking the law, raising the costs considerably. From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Sat Nov 24 01:50:49 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 03:50:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: HDCP break and DMCA Message-ID: <1d424abd617de279a90b56732c18ba2b@mixmaster.nullify.org> Congratulations to Ian Goldberg, David Wagner and other cryptographers for publishing a break of the HDCP standard for encrypting video data. This was intended to be used between HDTV decoders and displays, for example, to allow digital communication between them in encrypted form so that it could not be captured and shared. The paper by Crosby et al at http://nunce.org/hdcp/hdcp111901.htm is a thorough break of the system, which unfortunately is not fielded yet so you can't use the exploit to steal HDTV. The big question is what about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which potentially criminalizes such research? We heard a great deal this past summer about what a threat the DMCA was to legitimate cryptographic research, and about how the exemptions in the DMCA weren't worth the paper they were printed on. One cryptographer, Niels Ferguson, refused to publish his break for fear of prosecution under the DMCA, http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46091,00.html. It would be interesting to hear the perspective of any of the researchers involved as to whether they are concerned about the DMCA. Do they view themselves as creating a possible test case? Or are they simply going to ignore the DMCA and go about their lives, doing their work on the assumption that such a bad law will ultimately not hold up in court? From sampage at sexy-portal.com Sat Nov 24 04:06:05 2001 From: sampage at sexy-portal.com (sampage at sexy-portal.com) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 04:06:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Add you adult site to Sexy-Portal by Samantha Page Message-ID: <200111241206.EAA19253@toad.com> To be removed from future mailings send a blank email to mailto:remove at sexy-portal.com?subject=REMOVE Hello, My name is Samantha Page, performer in Horny Sluts, Amazing Boobs, Samantha Page and Friends, Inside Samantha, Hardcore Boobs, Meeting Samantha any many more porn movies. As an old and retired star of the adult industry (after marriage, I am only 31, not too old) I created an adult portal which I myself review all the sites and keep it as a quality sex portal, adult links and search engine. Now you may take your minute and add your adult site with a proper description at http://www.sexy-portal.com/index.html and share our traffic immediately. Don't miss this brand new opportunity to become a part of this new Sexy-Portal and reserve your link at the top. I mostly add new sites within a few hours. Love and kisses, Samantha Page To be removed from future mailings send a blank email to mailto:remove at sexy-portal.com?subject=REMOVE From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Fri Nov 23 19:38:35 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 04:38:35 +0100 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks Message-ID: Greg Broiles writes: > And that problem seems to be at the center of Nomen Nescio's sotto voce > suggestion that some unnamed cypherpunks work up a currency which can be > used to "pay" people for providing information which is of value - It's not a matter of unnamed cypherpunks doing a favor, but rather a proposal offered to see if there is support. If a few people spoke up with agreement that such an effort were worth doing, the next step would be to put together a project, perhaps on sourceforge, and get some code into play. But if you run the flag up and no one salutes, then you should wait for a better idea. > I get > the impression that s/he is imagining some magic fairy would mint up piles > of the currency, and assign it equally to every subscriber, who would then > be empowered to pay it to the content providers they liked best. > > That's very warm and fuzzy and hippy-like, but if these tokens are handed > out for free, then what, exactly, is their value? This is the problem of initial distribution. Ideally there would be some way to give every person a fixed initial allocation, but in practice this will allow people to create new identities ("nyms") and get more than their share. It seemed that part of MojoNation's reason for backing away from mojo-as-money was the problem of fairly giving an initial allocation. Here's an idea which has been proposed before: use hashcash to purchase e-coins. Hashcash is a hash collision generated by a certain number of standard CPU hours of work. To enter into the ecash economy you could generate hashcash and send it to the server, getting ecash in exchange. Ecash is more suitable than hashcash as a form of currency as it can be transferred and exchanged at the bank with little effort or expense. But the problem is acquiring the initial ecash without the overwhelming inflation that Greg Broiles implicitly warns against. By basing ecash on hashcash which involves a significant expense to generate, you avoid inflation. In this system, the ecash "bank" would not be a bank at all. It would have two functions: give out some ecash given hashcash; and give out some (fresh) ecash given other ecash. The latter would use the double spending database and all that. If you received some ecash as payment you would immediately exchange it at the bank which will simultaneously verify that the cash is good and give you fresh coins for later spending. The ecash server is simply an exchanger. These are serious proposals. With Ben Laurie's lucre library and a berkeley db for the double spending database, a basic server could be put together in a few hours' work. Adam Back's hashcash software can be used as a client to generate the initial requests. The basic pieces are all here, no magic fairies required. The main question is again whether there exists an initial market which could be enticed into trying out this package on an experimental basis. From honig at sprynet.com Sat Nov 24 07:39:58 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 07:39:58 -0800 Subject: reputation capital in rodentia Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011124073958.007a2a30@pop.sprynet.com> Ground squirrels maintain reputations. Scientists played back alarm calls both with (to enhance) and without (to degrade) different individuals' calls. After 10 false alarms, that call was ignored; but the high S/N call caused alarms even without the threat (a stuffed badger) being present. J Hare, B Atkins, Behav Ecol & Sociobio reported in Sci News 160 p 312 From honig at sprynet.com Sat Nov 24 07:59:06 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 07:59:06 -0800 Subject: Passive three dimensional track of non-cooperative targetsthrough opportunistic use of global positioning system (GPS) andGLONASS signals In-Reply-To: <3BFF4750.6FFD0C31@mozcom.com> References: <200111240315.fAO3FXn20546@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011124075906.007afb50@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:08 PM 11/24/01 +0800, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: >Damn. If this really works it is a cheap countermeasure to >low-observable ("stealth") technology. In effect, everybody within the >GPS and/or GLONASS coverage area has his own multistatic radar available >7/24. > >I wonder if this has actually been implemented... > I think this patent is a formalization of an effect reported maybe a year ago... where stealth aircraft were localized via cell base station data... in England IIRC From mv at cdc.gov Sat Nov 24 08:19:22 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 08:19:22 -0800 Subject: powergrab 2001: Must the law "tell the truth and for everybody to follow the law" Message-ID: <3BFFC889.D22E6B7@cdc.gov> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011124/us/attacks_posse_comitatus_1.html Saturday November 24 5:00 AM ET 1878 Military Law Gets New Attention By T.A. BADGER, Associated Press Writer SAN ANTONIO (AP) - America's military is largely prohibited from acting as a domestic police force, but with the increased fears of terrorism, some experts say it's time to rethink those restrictions. ``Our way of life has forever changed,'' wrote Sen. John Warner (news - bio - voting record), R-Va., in a letter last month to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. ``Should this law now be changed to enable our active-duty military to more fully join other domestic assets in this war against terrorism?'' The law, known as the Posse Comitatus Act, was championed by Southern lawmakers in 1878 who were angry about the widespread use of the Army in post-Civil War law enforcement. It currently bans the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines from participating in arrests, searches, seizure of evidence and other police-type activity on U.S. soil. The Coast Guard and National Guard troops under the control of state governors are excluded from the act. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, testifying in October before the Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites), agreed that it might be desirable to give federal troops more of a role in domestic policing to prevent terrorism. ``In certain cases we can do more than anyone else in the country because of the special capabilities that we have,'' he said. Those roles could be varied, such as helping local law enforcement in the event of a terrorist attack, patrolling the nation's borders or serving as armed sky marshals aboard flights over the United States. But the issue of expanding the military's domestic reach sharply divides lawyers who have spent years studying Posse Comitatus, Latin for ``power of the county.'' Dennis Corrigan, a retired colonel who taught the law at the Army's Judge Advocate General's school, says legislators should resist the urge to change it. The military isn't trained to be a police force, he says, so it should stick to the skills for which it is trained: surveillance, information gathering, logistical support. All of these activities are allowable under Posse Comitatus. ``There should be a partnership between the military and civilian sectors - the civilian doing the confrontation and the military providing support,'' said Corrigan, now a businessman living in Gilford, N.H. ``I'm not sure, even with what's going on today, that Congress wants the military arresting people.'' Jeffrey Addicott, a retired lieutenant colonel in the Army JAG Corps, wrote that the law handcuffs the nation when it comes to responding to terrorist attacks. ``We've got a homeland defense office, but if there's not reforms, the Posse Comitatus Act will cut them off at the knees,'' Addicott, now a law professor at St. Mary's University in San Antonio, said in a recent interview. ``This is a new kind of war,'' Addicott said. ``We have to make a compromise now to prevent these guys from committing an act of terror on a larger scale.'' Army Secretary Thomas White said late last month that the Pentagon (news - web sites)'s review of Posse Comitatus would not likely lead to recommendations that Congress overhaul the act. ``But we are looking at the details of the law to see if revisions are appropriate in the way it's executed or the exceptions that can be taken,'' White said. Exceptions over the years have seen armed federal troops used for drug interdiction and patrol of the U.S.-Mexico border to enforce immigration laws with mixed results. In 1997, a Marine corporal on a drug surveillance patrol shot and killed an 18-year-old goat herder in the Texas desert about 200 miles southeast of El Paso. A Marine inquiry determined its personnel were not adequately trained for the mission. Soon afterward, such patrols ended. Michael Spak, a former Army JAG colonel now teaching at Chicago-Kent College of Law, says the exceptions made in the name of national security in recent decades have left Posse Comitatus a hollow shell. He says the law should be scrapped entirely. Any amendment to loosen Posse Comitatus would be strictly pro forma, he says, because as it's now construed, the statute has enough wiggle room for the government to use the military for domestic action as it sees fit. ``It's good for the law to tell the truth and for everybody to follow the law,'' he said. ``But is it necessary? No.'' From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Fri Nov 23 23:23:05 2001 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 08:23:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks Message-ID: <0155c3640adf00ac473f8a0a737ded16@remailer.privacy.at> David Molnar writes: > On Sat, 24 Nov 2001, Anonymous wrote: > > > It seemed that part of MojoNation's reason for backing away > > from mojo-as-money was the problem of fairly giving an initial allocation. > > Do you know this because you've communicated with the Mojo team, are they > on record about it, is this speculation, your inference from events, or > something else? It's inference and observation based on their changing policies and statements about mojo over the course of the project. At first it was going to be relatively hard to get and eventually be interchangeable with money. Then everyone got upset because they kept losing mojo, partially because of bugs and mistunings which allowed certain people to game the system and steal it away from others. So they made mojo easier and easier to get. Eventually they decided not to display the amount of mojo you have so that you wouldn't worry so much about losing it. The specific problem of how to fairly give people initial mojo wasn't the main driving factor but it was part of this constellation of problems that they ran into. If you've got to make mojo essentially free in order to deal with other problems, then logically it wouldn't work that well as a currency substitute. It is this last step which is inference, the rest is observation. > Please don't take that the wrong way - I don't doubt your integrity. It's > an interesting suggestion and I'm just wondering where it came from. Anonymous posters don't have integrity; that is a property of persistent identities. With anonymity each message must stand on its own, without the benefit of its author's reputation for integrity or intelligence. From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Nov 24 06:42:47 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 08:42:47 -0600 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks References: <0d6fafaebf85a51371fc55c21b6abb9e@mixmaster.nullify.org> Message-ID: <3BFFB1E6.9BAB2F2E@cybershamanix.com> Fortunately, as someone else pointed out, U.S. postal regs end at U.S. borders, and also do not apply to FedEx, UPS, etc. Incognito Innominatus wrote: > > Unfortunately U.S. postal regulations require identification when you > rent a mail box, public or private. See > http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/audio/private_mail_box.htm: > -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com From mv at cdc.gov Sat Nov 24 08:57:16 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 08:57:16 -0800 Subject: McAfee to introduce FBI back door into their antivirus tools Message-ID: <3BFFD16B.3A5EBE30@cdc.gov> "At least one antivirus software company, McAfee Corp., contacted the FBI on Wednesday to ensure its software wouldn't inadvertently detect the bureau's snooping software and alert a criminal suspect." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1436-2001Nov22.html ---- Wonder how long it will take a virus writer to spoof the golden signature? I especially like the plot where a good rev engr gets a sample of the FBI's trojan and modifies/deploys it for his own purposes... From mv at cdc.gov Sat Nov 24 09:10:22 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 09:10:22 -0800 Subject: patriotic trash Message-ID: <3BFFD47E.6BC84023@cdc.gov> Some significant fraction of the cars in the States have (generally Chinese-made) flags fluttering on them. And since, well, stuff happens, some of these have broken and now you see flags on the ground by the side of the road. This is twisted because the flag is never supposed to touch the ground, etc., but we'll see lots of that as the cheap plastic flags disintegrate. [That wasn't a metaphor but it could be....] In fact you're supposed to burn weathered flags ---and of course, folks' reaction to burning the flag *prematurely* is how you distinguish freedom (eg of expression) lovers from poseurs. .... Curiouser and curiouser Down the rabbit hole Rabbits don't carry anthrax, do they? From measl at mfn.org Sat Nov 24 07:11:17 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 09:11:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: IP: What are your reac tions to this? (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Nov 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:09:10 -0500 > From: David Farber > Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu > To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com > Subject: IP: What are your reac tions to this? > > > > > >Young Ben Shapiro discusses the sophomoric thinking of some professors at > >UCLA. > >http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=17431 > > > >Effects of campus liberalism far-reaching > >LIBERALS: Professors give support to murders of law enforcement, terrorist > >acts > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >---- > >Ben Shapiro > > > >Universities have a serious problem. Universities have MANY serious problems. The fact that they are now mere hazing facilities (and goddamn expensive ones at that) providing for the "filtering out" of those society would rather not have to listen to (the poor) - and the fact that we as a society still allow this "university system" to act as a control over gainful employment is probably the single worst problem the universities have. But, you came here with your own specific university problem, so let's just address that one :-) > The type of liberalism so heavily > >favored by the intellectual elite has crossed the line. Professors > >throughout the educational world are supporting murderers and terrorists; Really? You mean they have actually started to behave like congresscritters and presidents? > >they are justifying despicable actions because of the political philosophies > >of the actors. Murder, slaughter, and terrorism are OK, they say, as long as > >they are directed at law-enforcement officials or civilian Westerners. I guess they are finally teaching Karma :-) > It's > >fine as long as the murderer is anti-capitalist, anti-establishment or > >anti-conservative. I sure hope he's on one of MY juries! It sure beats the other 11 who will be "hang 'em, he's a commie fruitcake cause he doesn't bow to D.C. five times a day". > >This frightening ideology has not only blurred the line between liberalism > >and radicalism � it has destroyed it. This ideology cannot truly be called > >liberalism � it can only be called evil. I gather from the phrasing here that the message itself is not what is being complained about, but rather the target of the message is the issue. Hypocrisy is a wondeful thing, isn't it? ;-) > And this evil must be eradicated > >before it spreads and engulfs the aspiring youth of our nation in its dark > >and shadowy tentacles. Yada, yada, yada... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jya at pipeline.com Sat Nov 24 09:32:46 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 09:32:46 -0800 Subject: Biowar in CT and NY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The operator of Plum Island Animal Disease Center, LB&B Associates, is a facilities manager firm which has contracts with the USG for numerous operations around the nation. In addition to the Plumb Island facility, it operates an unidentified federal facility in Trenton, NJ, the reported origin of several of the anthrax letters. It holds government contracts for "hot" facilities for viral research, claiming extensive experience with up to Level 3 facilities and is under consideration as operator of Plum Island's upgrade to Level 4 for research on human-animal viruses. A Plum Island job ad says "many employees live in Connecticut and take the ferry from New London to Orient Point, NY" from which a Center boat goes to the island. The most recent anthrax death occurred a few miles from New London, CT. The firm as had several labor relations problems such as employee suits and unionization squabbles. It is fiercely anti-union according to one report. Another report claims it has continuing labor problems which has led to being downgraded in government bids. The firm also produces virtual military training programs in urban warfare and aircraft operation. It received a lot of press coverage for adopting and adapting Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Rogue Spear game engine for military training programs. The firm also operates military helicopter facilities and services the aircraft. LB&B stands for Lily Brandon and Brandon, the founder and a relative. From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Nov 24 10:59:14 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:59:14 -0800 Subject: powergrab 2001: Must the law "tell the truth and for everybody to follow the law" In-Reply-To: <3BFFC889.D22E6B7@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <3BFF7D82.25336.2340D@localhost> -- On 24 Nov 2001, at 8:19, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > The military isn't trained to be a police force, he says, > so it should stick to the skills for which it is trained: > surveillance, information gathering, logistical support. > All of these activities are allowable under Posse > Comitatus. The primary job that the military is trained for is to kill enemies in war time. Soldiers are trained not to worry about collateral damage, not to worry too much if civilians happen to be in the way, and they are trained to shoot first, think later, and forget about asking questions. If soldiers are used for law enforcement purposes, they have habits that make them bad law enforcement officers and will develop habits that will make them bad soldiers. In guerrila wars, where the enemy is hidden and intermingled with civilians, there is often substantial overlap between military and police functions. However, such wars have never been won by the military alone, unless they adopted scorched earth policies and drained the river to catch the fish. Always, to win a guerrila war they needed a local militia who knew the local people, needed a local militia to perform the policing functions for them, to perform functions soldiers are not trained to perform. Soldier's are not only too dangerous to be cops, they are also incompetent as cops. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG XNZwXCHQ+ncT1elsjih591aKD0GfBjFTYfctrRrw 4/IumGPneBlkJfvem70c79jYBmDV/7MpJ3RIlHeSV From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sat Nov 24 03:29:18 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:29:18 +0100 (MET) Subject: IP: What are your reac tions to this? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:09:10 -0500 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: What are your reac tions to this? > >Young Ben Shapiro discusses the sophomoric thinking of some professors at >UCLA. >http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=17431 > >Effects of campus liberalism far-reaching >LIBERALS: Professors give support to murders of law enforcement, terrorist >acts >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- >Ben Shapiro > >Universities have a serious problem. The type of liberalism so heavily >favored by the intellectual elite has crossed the line. Professors >throughout the educational world are supporting murderers and terrorists; >they are justifying despicable actions because of the political philosophies >of the actors. Murder, slaughter, and terrorism are OK, they say, as long as >they are directed at law-enforcement officials or civilian Westerners. It's >fine as long as the murderer is anti-capitalist, anti-establishment or >anti-conservative. > >This frightening ideology has not only blurred the line between liberalism >and radicalism ­ it has destroyed it. This ideology cannot truly be called >liberalism ­ it can only be called evil. And this evil must be eradicated >before it spreads and engulfs the aspiring youth of our nation in its dark >and shadowy tentacles. > For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ From jya at pipeline.com Sat Nov 24 12:35:59 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:35:59 -0800 Subject: HDCP break and DMCA In-Reply-To: <1d424abd617de279a90b56732c18ba2b@mixmaster.nullify.org> Message-ID: Yes, it would be interesting to hear from all the authors how they decided to publish the HDCP crack, first at a recent conference, then to publish on the Web -- as far as I know none besides Scott Crosby, the principal author, agreed to publish on the Web. Scott, a student at CMU, first broke HDCP program before Niels Ferguson refused to publish his cryptanalysis of HDCP due to DMCA: http://cryptome.org/hdcp-weakness.htm Scott said at the time of the initial break that he was fearful then about being punished under DMCA and even more so now. He says he now agrees with Neils to not publish additional cryptanalysis under threat of the DMCA. It is possible that the HDCP owners don't give a damn for the program was openly published and there's been no public complaint about Scott's first crack, Neils or the latest. To be sure, that lack of initiative might be due to fear of cyberterrorism initiated by Richard Clarke or it may be due to confidence that the FBI will take care of all the nation's problems in about 150 years. From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 24 12:36:57 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:36:57 -0800 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20011121211611.C1984@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <013CFC8A-E11B-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> I think the attributions on this are screwy, but it's that way in what I'm quoting, so: On Wednesday, November 21, 2001, at 06:16 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Clearly "gep2" does not understand principles of free expression > and limited government. A shame. > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:22:54PM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> The part of the article where the government official says such books >> "should be illegal" is especially telling. > > But one of the few positive things about the post-Sep. 11 response is > that we haven't seen much in the way of serious proposals for prior > restraint on publications that would be allowed before that date. The question is how many of these proposals were already "on the table", or at least in the same room as the table before? There have always been those who believed it was possible to restrict access to information "for our own good". They have always been wrong. > > That is, naturally, damning with faint praise, and there have been > some moves to limit availability of info > (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02820.html), but it could have been far > worse. > > -Declan > > -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 24 12:44:15 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:44:15 -0800 Subject: why market to Joe Sixpack? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <065BB9C4-E11C-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Wednesday, November 21, 2001, at 08:51 PM, dmolnar wrote: > Declan's comment on operating a physical remailer for suitably valuable > cargo, plus some of Tim's recent comments about integration, made me > think > of the question in the subject line. So far I see at least three > possible > answers. > > 1) Make lots of money. Always a good reason if you can do it. > 2) Spread awareness (that "funny feeling in the stomach" recently > discussed) and save our fellow man. Make the world safe for privacy. Maybe we should all take to wearing a safety pin on our shirts, and when people ask about it say "It's not a safety pin, it's a Crypto Awareness Ribbon", and when "they" say "but there's no ribbon there", say "Yes, there is, it's just that you can't see it...". (For the more literal minded among you, this is a joke). > 3) Ensure that cryptography and privacy-enhancing technologies have uses > besides "Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse," so that they aren't banned. > > anything else? 4) Economy of scale. Software designed and written for 100000000 people is usually much cheaper than software designed and written for 10. 5) Cover traffic. If every stinking thing on the wire was encrypted (at least once), then an encrypted transmission garners no additional scrutiny. If only 1 out of 1 million transmissions are encrypted, then The Department Of They has a greater sususpion that you're saying something they want to hear. -- People who are willing to rely on the government to keep them safe are pretty much standing on Darwin's mat, pounding on the door, screaming, "Take me, take me!"--Cael in A.S.R. -- From mv at cdc.gov Sat Nov 24 13:01:35 2001 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:01:35 -0800 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) Message-ID: <3C000AAE.7AA94BD2@cdc.gov> At 12:44 PM 11/22/01 -0600, gep2 at terabites.com wrote: >Again, the First Amendment has its limits. Nope. How unAmerican. Are you British? If some organization were to publish >a "you can build it at home in your spare time" cookbook recipe of how to create >an innovative sort of nuclear weapon capable of destroying a large city, I'd >expect for the government to step in and prevent its publication and sale... Speaking of which do you find chocolate agar to be a better culture medium than uncooked blood agar? And when oxygenating the culture can you just bubble air or do you see better results from pure O2? >The idea that this nitwit is "only just" publishing this kind of material and >not HIMSELF committing the resulting crimes (and it could WELL be that the >anthrax attacks already seen here are the work of one or more of his customers) >and that he therefore should be allowed to continue these sales unimpeded and >unmonitored is rather like saying that Osama bin Laden is only running terrorism >training camps, producing snazzy recruitment videos, publishing terrorism >handbooks and providing other logistical support but that nothing he's done has >actually CAUSED anybody to go out and commit these horrible atrocities. > >Again, sorry, I don't agree. Presumably there is a lot of causal evidence that can't be shown. Making videos is never a crime. (Vs. coercing actors, or using the state to censor) >>>How many sets of these "terrorism cookbooks" do you let fall >>>into the hands of psychotics? The most dangerous psychotics are the elected ones. BTW Gordon you use "we" far too much, as if you are speaking for others than your lil' ole self. We find this annoying. From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sat Nov 24 15:01:46 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 15:01:46 -0800 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) Message-ID: <200111242301.fAON1kp36067@mailserver1.hushmail.com> At 12:44 PM 11/22/2001 -0600, gep2 at terabites.com wrote: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>There are plenty of books I can think of -- almost all of the Loompanics >>catalog -- that would fret some government official. David Burnham's books >>on the IRS and DOJ abuses of power are another. >There's a huge difference between a book that blows the whistle on government misdoings and abuses versus a book that gives a detailed recipe on how some disgruntled lunatic with $10 in their pocket can kill tens of thousands, maybe even millions, of other people "from your basement, in your spare time". Many of the works in the Loompanics catalogue are practical, how-to, manuals on manufacture and use of weapons, some now classed as illegal. >ESPECIALLY when that book discusses (and presumably encourages) the distribution of anthrax and other home-cultured lethal pathogens by letters in the mail, and in light of recent events bearing a striking similarity to that, I think it's obvious that people who bought this guy's book or CD are certainly at least among the list of prime suspects. (And I'd think that it simply makes sense to investigate, and monitor the activities of the rest of the purchasers to try to uncover if they're just "curious" as an academically interesting subject, or to see if they have a more sinister purpose.) The barriers to law enforcement in obtaining this type of information is part of the balance struck between individual civil liberties and the easy with which law enforcement is able to carry out some of their mandate to identify and capture criminals. It is only in a police state that law enforcement's job is "easy." Despite my concern over the possession of such information by some who have plans to use it to hurt others, I have no interest in seeing this balance tipped toward enforcement. >Obviously we as a nation were largely blindsided by the September 11th disaster, and we've been roundly criticized due to the obvious failure of intelligence to see this coming and head it off somehow. While we can't ALWAYS achieve that, it's clear that we need to do better in that area. Anyone who looked for their inept government security agencies to provide all or most of their security were fools. Any who continue to look for this protection going forward are larger fools. To paraphrase P.T. Barnum, "A fool and their life are soon parted." Your safety is most assured when you take personal responsibility. The reasons for this failure have been much publicized and ignored over the past two decades. The massive funding of these agencies post Sept. 11 are unlikely to have any immediate positive effects as money was never the primary problem. >There's plenty of other things that "ordinary" folk simply don't have much need to buy and own. [very-]Large-denomination currency, perhaps. This seems to be based on the assumption that one does not have a fundamental right to property: the right to possess it or transfer it. That roadblocks need to be erected to prevent us from efficiently exercising this right. The right to privacy, especially financial privacy is a basis of democratic government. By limiting the manner in which one may hold property, especially without the knowledge of government agencies or ones neighbors, we greatly limit our freedom of private property ownership and privacy. >Nuclear weapons. > High explosives and blasting caps. Shoulder-launced antiaircraft missiles. I'm sure you can think of others. I'd put anthrax and other biological or chemical weapons into that category, too. I'd hope that anyone buying (or attempting to buy) such stuff would at least slightly raise an eyebrow on the part of SOMEONE charged with helping to maintain a society that's safe to live in. It's clearly NOT enough to only monitor such things on the part of madmen like Saddam Hussein... clearly, we have crazy people right here in the United States, too. They're no less in need of at least some oversight to make sure that they don't go off the deep end and endanger as much as an entire city (or possibly even worse). >From the Declaration of Independence the right of individuals to overthrow their governments when THEY feel that it has come ignore basic civil liberties has been enshrined. While some might insist that massive civil unrest is the only legitimate means of achieving an overthrow I would remind you that fewer than 10% of the American Colonials took an active part in the Revolution. This was definitely a case of asymmetrical warfare and the British considered these Colonists terrorists (although this term was not used). Without the help of France is most unlikely that our side would have prevailed. Abraham Lincoln : "Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." "First Inaugural Address" (available at http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html) "Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable,---a most sacred right---a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it." (Speech in the United States House of Representatives, Jan. 12, 1848) You or I certainly couldn't consider overthrowing our government with a pistol, rifle or shotgun. The individual possession of Weapons of Mass Destruction is fundamental to exercise of our rights. The Supreme Court essentially came to this conclusion in the case of Miller vs. U.S, but shortly thereafter it beat a hasty retreat in Case vs. U.S. "In view of this, if the rule of the Miller case is general and complete, the result would follow that, under present day conditions, the federal government would be empowered only to regulate the possession or use of weapons such as a flintlock musket or a matchlock harquebus. But to hold that the Second Amendment limits the federal government to regulations concerning only weapons which can be classed as antiques or curiosities,--almost any other might bear some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia unit of the present day,--is in effect to hold that the limitation of the Second Amendment is absolute. Another objection to the rule of the Miller case as a full and general statement is that according to it Congress would be prevented by the Second Amendment from regulating the possession or use by private persons not present or prospective members of any military unit, of distinctly military arms, such as machine guns, trench m! ortars, anti-tank or anti-aircraft guns, even though under the circumstances surrounding such possession or use it would be inconceivable that a private person could have any legitimate reason for having such a weapon. It seems to us unlikely that the framers of the Amendment intended any such result." http://www.2ndlawlib.org/court/fed/131f2d916.html So, where we sit now is that we have a fundamental right to overthrow our government by violence but the discussion of this subject or possession of the means is a felony. >>But I hardly think it's >>consistent with the First Amendment to investigate the people who buy them, >>or make the authors pay "protection money" for the privilege of publishing. >It's hardly reasonable for taxpayers as a whole to have to pay the high costs of security that are created by an irresponsible individual who is creating a very dangerous situation just to earn a few fistfulls of dollars (and to quite purposefully create that danger). When someone creates a highly dangerous condition that results in heavy costs to someone else (whether to correct the problem, or even to protect themselves against the possible problem) then courts have traditionally found that the damaged party has a civil claim against the person creating that hazard. But since this expensive security has now been shown to be ineffective don't you think those citizens are entitled to a refund? These expenditures were foolish but should individuals be held responsible for the folly of their fellow citizens? Should I be able to sue our government for reimbursement of the costs of living in a gated and guarded community because I think the police have "created a dangerous condition" by not providing an adequate level of protection to my family? This is a fools game. >Again, the First Amendment has its limits. If some organization were to publish a "you can build it at home in your spare time" cookbook recipe of how to create an innovative sort of nuclear weapon capable of destroying a large city, I'd expect for the government to step in and prevent its publication and sale... purely as a matter of national security. Section 4.0 Engineering and Design of Nuclear Weapons http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Nwfaq/Nfaq4.html >Just as very few Americans (in fact I suspect this is true for most of the world) will shed great tears when ObL is captured or killed, I think that few of them will be very upset when this guy selling "murder millions of your fellow citizens" cookbooks is eliminated. Nor shall I when those of my fellow citizens who with a fundamental lack of constitutional awareness call for such results meet a similar fate. >Now do you see why your post is so at odds with the principles of a free >society? If not, I'm not sure you're educable on this issue. >Clearly we're going to lose some of our freedoms. :-((( I just hope that those losses can be minimized. Meanwhile, it's bastards like this guy selling these terrorism training manuals who are ultimately more part of the problem than they are part of the solution. This no more a far gone conclusion than that some of those who passed these new measures or attempt to enforce them will lose their lives in doing so. From piolenc at mozcom.com Fri Nov 23 23:08:00 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 15:08:00 +0800 Subject: Passive three dimensional track of non-cooperative targetsthrough opportunistic use of global positioning system (GPS) andGLONASS signals References: <200111240315.fAO3FXn20546@mailserver1.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3BFF4750.6FFD0C31@mozcom.com> Damn. If this really works it is a cheap countermeasure to low-observable ("stealth") technology. In effect, everybody within the GPS and/or GLONASS coverage area has his own multistatic radar available 7/24. I wonder if this has actually been implemented... Marc de Piolenc mean-green at hushmail.com wrote: > > US Pat. 6,232,922 > > Passive three dimensional track of non-cooperative targets through opportunistic use of global positioning system (GPS) and GLONASS signals > > Abstract > A method and apparatus for utilization of GPS, GLONASS or other existing RF signals is disclosed. These existing RF signals are scattered by targets, with a receiver of these scattered signals providing processing to extract three dimensional track of these objects. From alittel669 at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 15:29:53 2001 From: alittel669 at earthlink.net (alittel669 at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 15:29:53 Subject: Registration Confirmation 77 Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3629 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Sat Nov 24 14:01:09 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:01:09 -0500 Subject: National ID is now a cinch :-). Message-ID: http://www.tray.com/ > UPDATE: Mon Nov 19, 2001 > > Security In Lobbying > Majority Leader Daschleís wife, Linda, registers to lobby for >Intelli-Check Inc of Woodbury, NY, a company that produces identification >systems. Baker, Donelson, Bearman & Caldwell will provide assistance in >familiarizing agencies with companyís ID systems. The form states Linda >Daschle voluntarily does not lobby the U.S. Senate. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ee380 at shasta.Stanford.EDU Sat Nov 24 17:04:49 2001 From: ee380 at shasta.Stanford.EDU (ee380) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:04:49 -0800 Subject: Robert Morris, IBM Almaden Research * Autonomic Computing * W4:15 Gates B03 Message-ID: Computer Systems Laboratory Colloquium 4:15PM, Wednesday, November 28, 2001 NEC Auditorium, Gates Computer Science Building B03 For additional information consult http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380 Title: Autonomic Computing Speaker: Robert Morris Director, IBM Almaden Research Center About the talk: The information technology boom can only explode for so long before it collapses on itself in a jumble of wires, buttons and knobs. IBM recently called on all researchers and industry members to attack the growing problem of complexity in IT by building more self-managing systems, and in creating a holistic approach to simplification of all aspects of these systems. The goal is to reduce maintenance, improve availability and ease-of-use, and lower costs. The human body's self-regulating nervous system presents an excellent model for creating the next generation of computing, autonomic computing. Robert Morris, Director of IBM's Almaden research Center in San Jose, will describe the motivation for this effort and some of the projects and results being undertaken at IBM. To succeed, this vision of an IT infrastructure will require the participation of IT researchers and developers throughout industry, government and academia. To read more about autonomic computing, see http://www.research.ibm.com/autonomic/manifesto/ About the speaker: Dr. Robert Morris is Director of IBM's Almaden Research Center, IBM's second largest research lab. The Almaden lab is focussed on a wide range of basic and applied research and was responsible for the development of the disk drive and the relational database. Today, research there spans from atoms to humans, i.e., from nanotechnology and individual atom manipulation, through hardware and system development and a large computer science lab, to human interface research. Robert has been the director there for two years, previously he was at IBM Watson Research center (responsible for advanced systems research, including personal systems, the Deep Blue chess project, etc). Before that he was a researcher in storage and data management at Almaden and, prior to 1991, at Bell Labs. He is a Fellow of the IEEE and a Member of IBM's Academy of Technology. Contact information: Robert Morris IBM Almaden Research Center 650 Harry Rd, San Jose CA 95120 408 927 2200 rjtm at us.ibm.com X-Authenticated-User: idiom ~~~ Thanks; Bill Stewart From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 24 18:57:38 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 18:57:38 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <20011122123605.A12106@informationanarchy.org> Message-ID: <2F1F5698-E150-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Thursday, November 22, 2001, at 12:36 PM, Mark Henderson wrote: > On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 08:46:18PM -0800, Petro wrote: >> Not necessarily. It is argued both that Libertarians are >> chicken-shit anarchists (afraid to take the last step) or that >> Anarchists are just extreme Libertarians. > > As far as I can tell most libertarians are in favour of an > unfettered free market. People who label themselves as anarchists > tend to be anti-capitalist. Anarchists who claim to be anti-capitalists are either (a) not anarchists, or (b) mis-understand what capitalism is. Capitalism is simply letting each and every individual, or group of individuals place their economic resources where they feel they will get the best return (that's the one sentence explanation of my understanding). Of course, many "anarchists" and "leftists" would argue with this definition, as is proper. One needs to agree on terms before one can debate the merits of the systems those terms represent. It doesn't help the Capitalist case any that many of it's leading proponents are all for government intervention. Mr. May tends to label himself an anarchist, and I don't think he's got much against (philosophical) Capitalism. I, on my more moderate days, label myself an anarchist(1). On my bad days, it's more like nihilism. Anarchy is individuals, or groups of individuals living their lives according to what they believe is best for them, without external coercion. Anyone who seeks to coerce someone into allocating their resources a certain way (convincing isn't coercion, it's salesmanship), or to prevent that allocation does not believe in Anarchy, they're just leftist who couldn't get to be the leader of their local red-cell. (1) I'm not a believer in Anarchy because I believe that people will behave better without government than with, I'm a believer in Anarchy because then they can't hide behind lawyers and badges when they fuck someone. They can still hide behind guns, but that just makes their actions more honest. I don't believe in anarchy because I trust people. I believe in anarchy because I don't trust them. -- "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are half-wits."--Chris Klein From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 24 18:59:14 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 18:59:14 -0800 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011122161809.02603b80@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <68D852E9-E150-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> On Thursday, November 22, 2001, at 01:20 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I have little interest in debating with someone who believes in > criminalizing the publication and distribution (and also, apparently, > the purchasing) of scientific and technical information. > > One might as well debate the merits of concealed carry .40 caliber vs. > 9mm handguns with a Handgun Control lobbyist. Neither one is significantly better to waste the time arguing about. -- Amendment II, Revised: A well-regulated population being necessary to the security of a police state, the right of the Government to keep and destroy arms shall not be infringed. --Sten Drescher -- From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Sat Nov 24 18:55:08 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 20:55:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks Message-ID: Greg Broiles writes: > And that problem seems to be at the center of Nomen Nescio's sotto voce > suggestion that some unnamed cypherpunks work up a currency which can be > used to "pay" people for providing information which is of value - It's not a matter of unnamed cypherpunks doing a favor, but rather a proposal offered to see if there is support. If a few people spoke up with agreement that such an effort were worth doing, the next step would be to put together a project, perhaps on sourceforge, and get some code into play. But if you run the flag up and no one salutes, then you should wait for a better idea. > I get > the impression that s/he is imagining some magic fairy would mint up piles > of the currency, and assign it equally to every subscriber, who would then > be empowered to pay it to the content providers they liked best. > > That's very warm and fuzzy and hippy-like, but if these tokens are handed > out for free, then what, exactly, is their value? This is the problem of initial distribution. Ideally there would be some way to give every person a fixed initial allocation, but in practice this will allow people to create new identities ("nyms") and get more than their share. It seemed that part of MojoNation's reason for backing away from mojo-as-money was the problem of fairly giving an initial allocation. Here's an idea which has been proposed before: use hashcash to purchase e-coins. Hashcash is a hash collision generated by a certain number of standard CPU hours of work. To enter into the ecash economy you could generate hashcash and send it to the server, getting ecash in exchange. Ecash is more suitable than hashcash as a form of currency as it can be transferred and exchanged at the bank with little effort or expense. But the problem is acquiring the initial ecash without the overwhelming inflation that Greg Broiles implicitly warns against. By basing ecash on hashcash which involves a significant expense to generate, you avoid inflation. In this system, the ecash "bank" would not be a bank at all. It would have two functions: give out some ecash given hashcash; and give out some (fresh) ecash given other ecash. The latter would use the double spending database and all that. If you received some ecash as payment you would immediately exchange it at the bank which will simultaneously verify that the cash is good and give you fresh coins for later spending. The ecash server is simply an exchanger. These are serious proposals. With Ben Laurie's lucre library and a berkeley db for the double spending database, a basic server could be put together in a few hours' work. Adam Back's hashcash software can be used as a client to generate the initial requests. The basic pieces are all here, no magic fairies required. The main question is again whether there exists an initial market which could be enticed into trying out this package on an experimental basis. From schear at lvcm.com Sat Nov 24 20:56:27 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 20:56:27 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011124203300.04cc9f90@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:55 PM 11/24/2001 -0600, Incognito Innominatus wrote: >These are serious proposals. With Ben Laurie's lucre library and a >berkeley db for the double spending database, a basic server could be >put together in a few hours' work. Adam Back's hashcash software can >be used as a client to generate the initial requests. The basic pieces >are all here, no magic fairies required. > >The main question is again whether there exists an initial market which >could be enticed into trying out this package on an experimental basis. Look at the significant uptake for e-gold (current transaction rate about $1 million day) as an example of how to bootstrap a creditable value system. As for how to get value into the system and avoid inflation the answer is to use a recognized value store as backing: U.S. currency. IMHO, the code code isn't the hard part but all UI, back office systems and logistics of running such an operation. Ian Grigg has toiled for many years to create open source components for value store, payment and transaction systems. A look at his http://www.webfunds.org is a good place to start. At the July BA CP meeting an attempt was made to develop a consensus of where the opportunities for ecash lay. The strongest and most informed opinions are in general agreement with Tim May's 8/25 posting "The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot" The second reason for the meeting was to assess interest in creating an ecash API and a reference open source implementation. AFAIK no progress on these second purpose has been made but if anyone is looking to get involved please count me in. steve From softslide.sales at verizon.net Sat Nov 24 20:03:24 2001 From: softslide.sales at verizon.net (SoftSlide Sales) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:03:24 -0500 Subject: SoftSlide - Concrete eSlide Ruler Message-ID: This is advertising, so we will keep it short. ---------------------------------- DOWNLOAD YOUR OWN CONCRETE eSLIDE RULE "How many Software engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb? - None, it is a hardware problem!" Being a former Civil Engineer, I was never too far from dirt, stone, concrete, and rebar. Somewhere along the line, I transitioned into the CLEAN environment of electrical engineering, and eventually the STERILE environment of computers. Now I've worked with some very good computer people, but I must say there is a certain "gulf" between the computer screen and my former occupation. Perhaps that gulf is where all those dot-coms got lost ;>) I find myself trying to fill that gulf, with something a little more... well... concrete. Well, at any rate, here is my offering. We have this really cool concrete SoftSlide at: http://www.softslide.com/volumes/v4/t5/p1/page.htm. Try it for free, and if you want a custom one for your company - let me know. We do them up on custom printed mini-CDs, or as a download from your site. We are the only ones who make these - we invented them. And you are one of about 200 people we mailed this message to. I hope you find the SoftSlide useful, and perhaps entertaining. Oh... and be sure to "right-click" on it! Kind regards, Rod Spencer ---------------------------------- UNSUBSCRIBE/CHANGE INFORMATION This is a once-a-month offer with a restricted distribution. You have expressed an interest in SoftSlides or in related products. Reply and include "CANCEL-MAILINGS" in the subject line if you wish to stop future correspondence. Reply and include "CANCEL-MAILINGS CONFIRM" in the subject line if you also want confirmation. If you auto-forwarding or use a re-mailer, please be sure to send your reply from the original address that received it! ELECTRONIC ADVERTISING, MAILING POLICY AND PRIVACY POLICY We don't grab personal information. We don't buy or sell lists. There is one list, and if you opt out, it is for all of SoftSlides, period. For details please see: http://www.softslide.com/ps_support/note_uce_statement.htm and http://www.softslide.com/ps_support/note_privacy_statement.htm From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Sat Nov 24 15:33:22 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 00:33:22 +0100 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? Message-ID: > Again, the First Amendment has its limits. If some organization were to > publish > a "you can build it at home in your spare time" cookbook recipe of how to > create > an innovative sort of nuclear weapon capable of destroying a large city, I'd > expect for the government to step in and prevent its publication and sale... > purely as a matter of national security. Now THERE, it's true that getting > "enough" nuclear fuel is nontrivial, but in the case of biological (and even > some chemical) weapons, the potential for actual (and not just imagined) > mischief is far greater, and the harm that could be done is far too high to > dismiss as being simply hypothetical until after the fact. Are you aware that fairly explicit instructions were just last week published on the internet for building basement nukes? Sorry, you are dead wrong -- the First Amendment has no limits. And anyone who thinks so plainly needs killing. From nobody at dizum.com Sat Nov 24 15:50:04 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 00:50:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: Walk For Capitalism, 2nd December Message-ID: <86a00606570bbd254ec12cfce0a91f8e@dizum.com> World-wide pro-freedom walk. Please see http://walkforcapitalism.org for details More organizators needed! From smartmoney2020 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 00:20:25 2001 From: smartmoney2020 at yahoo.com (Roger L. Martin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 01:20:25 -0700 Subject: Happy Holidays -- Asking permission to contact you by email or phone Message-ID: <1224620011102582025530@yahoo.com> Hello -- I'm Asking Your Permission to contact you by email or by phone- to answer any questions you might have -- that is -- If you have an interested, in any of the following topics: Leads OR other services for your home business, than - please contact me. 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To be taken off this list please respond with "GET ME OFF" in the sub ject "Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered Spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal." From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 25 01:30:26 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 03:30:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: Public Notice - PGP Key Repudiation: 447E12E7 Message-ID: Greetings, While looking for an old revoked key id on pgpkeys.mit.edu I found a [1 month old] key with my email address and name falsely associated with it. THIS KEY WAS _NOT_ GENERATED BY ME, DOES NOT BELONG TO ME, IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH ME IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, AND IS HEREBY FORMALLY AND COMPLETELY REPUDIATED. pub 1024/447E12E7 2001/10/23 Jerry A. Terranson Key fingerprint = 0D 37 8F F5 95 FD 02 DF B7 CB DE DD 25 0B 90 73 44 7E 12 E7 -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From deth at runbox.no Sat Nov 24 20:56:12 2001 From: deth at runbox.no (scum) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 05:56:12 +0100 Subject: The Crypto Winter References: <2F1F5698-E150-11D5-B9A5-00306577F12E@bounty.org> Message-ID: <001d01c1756d$82dc3840$0490ccd5@dcut5krzcydjde> Atheists who claim to be anti-theism are either (a) not atheists, or (b) mis-understand what theism is. If we spend a quality minute in the real world, one or two things of what capitalism is and what anarchism is not will be evident. life without government vs. Texaco From nobody at hyperreal.pl Sat Nov 24 22:45:22 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 25 Nov 2001 06:45:22 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <2e01ea02ce18be4c0da6c1ca8c13c546@hyperreal.pl> Thank you for posting these John. I am about 1/2 way through them, and I am struck by how crude the "computer forensic" examinations are (see part 2, around page 270). The government examiners seem to have very little understanding how a computer actually works, but instead, rely on "out box" and "in box" and O/S time stamps, etc. There seems to be no understanding by Leen either, and I would have thought Bell would be trying to make him understand while this persecution was progressing. Since when is an examination a thourough one without a sector by sector and bit by bit combing? And since when has an O/S time stamp become trustworthy? While it is obvious from the transcripts that Tanner was more than a little biased in favor of the prosecution, it sure looks like Bell did his fair share to insure a conviction. From dietenbeck at zianet.com Sun Nov 25 06:24:27 2001 From: dietenbeck at zianet.com (dietenbeck at zianet.com) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 07:24:27 -0700 Subject: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: This is the media report Message-ID: <200111251421.GAA13714@toad.com> From cay2_h at prontomail.com Sat Nov 24 22:58:22 2001 From: cay2_h at prontomail.com (Aljosa Lavrinsek) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 07:58:22 +0100 Subject: Try It BEFORE You Buy It! Message-ID: <20011125070021.XDRJ13140.mail@localhost> Free Post Launch! There are a number important factors that increase the chances of any net worker becoming successful. The most important of which is the momentum and excitement of actively sponsoring new members. How would you like to know that you have an existing downline and team in place to continue to help you develop a network BEFORE you ever sign up or invest a penny? With our Post Launch program you can! A Post Launch is similar to a Pre Launch with two main differences. A Post Launch places a large group of excited individuals into an established Marketing program instead of a Marketing plan that may only be testing the waters (80% of new MLM's go defunct in the first year of business). Secondly, our program uses a new TEAM concept to help you to build a network. There is absolutely no risk to get involved and no cost to join Post Launch. For more information go to: http://www.geocities.com/perfect_step_h/ Aljosa Lavrinsek (this is global) You have nothing to lose and potentially a lot to gain! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- If you are no longer interested in receiving email from me, please click the reply and type remove in the subject box and your wishes will be honored. From pcw2 at flyzone.com Sun Nov 25 05:24:25 2001 From: pcw2 at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 08:24:25 -0500 Subject: Link between Masons and NSA revealed! In-Reply-To: <86a00606570bbd254ec12cfce0a91f8e@dizum.com> References: <86a00606570bbd254ec12cfce0a91f8e@dizum.com> Message-ID: <200111251329.HAA09135@einstein.ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61372-2001Nov20.html From pcw2 at flyzone.com Sun Nov 25 05:24:25 2001 From: pcw2 at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 08:24:25 -0500 Subject: Link between Masons and NSA revealed! In-Reply-To: <86a00606570bbd254ec12cfce0a91f8e@dizum.com> References: <86a00606570bbd254ec12cfce0a91f8e@dizum.com> Message-ID: <200111251324.fAPDOg917379@slack.lne.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61372-2001Nov20.html From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 25 09:04:22 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:04:22 -0800 Subject: Link between Masons and NSA revealed! In-Reply-To: <200111251324.fAPDOg917379@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <78C212E4-E1C6-11D5-BB1F-0050E439C473@got.net> On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 05:24 AM, Peter Wayner wrote: > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61372-2001Nov20.html > > Thanks! That's a very detailed and well-written article. I was just skimming through a new book on the Masons; mostly I read about the period when cathedrals and castles were being built in Europe and the Masons operated as a union. --Tim May "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. 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NEVER PAY FOR PORN AGAIN --> DON'T DELAY http://216.87.16.120/freejoin30/enter.html WARNING: This site contains explicit sexual material. You must be 18 or older to proceed. *************************************************************** REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS: This message is being sent to you in compliance with the current Federal legislation. You must have either posted an AD to one of our FFA sites, signed up at one of our web-sites, requested information from us on any one of a number of our continually changing offers, or responded to one of our past email letters. If you do not want to receive further emails or any other information from us, or you have received this mail in error, for immediate removal please click the link below: http://backdoormail.com/goremove/index.html From rah at shipwright.com Sun Nov 25 06:38:11 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:38:11 -0500 Subject: Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2... Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From maxinux at bigfoot.com Sun Nov 25 10:08:45 2001 From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (Max Inux) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:08:45 -0800 Subject: Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011125100304.04ffb478@pioneer.limbo.net> MY only question in regards to this topic are these: How many members of this mailing list have been selected for search? How many of these are NOT registered republicans or democrats? While I was selected (both going and returning to Ca) I talked to people at the table, none of them were dems or repubs (I was registered libertarian, one guy was green and another libertarian). Is there algorithm really "What are they registered to vote"? Max Inux From newsletter at gamblerdepot.com Sun Nov 25 10:56:01 2001 From: newsletter at gamblerdepot.com (newsletter at gamblerdepot.com) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:56:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gambler Depot Promo: $115 Free From Riverbelle Casino! Message-ID: <200111251856.fAPIu1m39139@srv54.server4me.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3277 bytes Desc: not available URL: From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com Sun Nov 25 11:10:04 2001 From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 11:10:04 PST Subject: New Century - Profile Of The Week! Message-ID: <200111251915.TAA33236@s0291.pm0.net> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> NOVEMBER 26, 2001 - THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT FEATURED PROFILE OF THE WEEK! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Dear Investors, We would like to introduce you to New Century Companies, Inc. (OTC BB: NCNY.OB) which is our featured profile this week. New Century is a leading manufacturer of machine tools that produce large diameter (4-14+ ft.) precision machined, metal rings. Upon completion of it's merger with Smith West, Inc., NCNY will be the leading source in the U.S. of large, precision machined rings for the Energy and Aerospace Industries. Recent initiatives with in the Aerospace and energy industries represent almost $1 trillion in new sales, NCNY intends to continue it's strategy of "vertical integration" by acquiring additional high margin, profitable businesses. At Wallstreet Universe, we will be keeping you informed of New Century updates and press releases for the next couple of months. Our last four profiles of: AMSE, CETA, CBBD and EMBI have performed tremendously and we expect the same of New Century! Good Trading - Steven Schwartz and Staff! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ New Century Companies, Inc. (OTC BB: NCNY.OB) Current Price: $0.45 cents per share. Location: 9515 Sorenson Ave. Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670 Phone: (562) 906-8455 Website: http://www.newcenturyinc.com For More Info: http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=NCNY.OB&d=t ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ +>+>+> ABOUT THE SMITH WEST INC., MERGER: The Company has signed a letter of intent for merger with Smith West, Inc., a rapidly growing manufacturer of large high-precision-machined rings for aircraft and gas turbine production. More about Smith West, Inc. > Smith West Inc. is a privately held leading manufacturer for aircraft jet engines, land base turbines for power generation and machinery for the semi-conductor industry. >> Twenty-year-old company headquartered in Tempe, AZ; operating three (3) state-of-the-art facilities: a 38,000 sq ft. plant dedicated to aircraft engine components; a 46,000 sq.ft. Plant dedicated to semi-conductor machinery components; and a new 32,000 sq.ft. facility dedicated to manufacturing turbine components for aircraft engines and power generation plants in Guaymas, Mexico >>> Leader in providing high precision-machined rings. >>>> Customers include: GE Aircraft and Gas Turbine Divisions, Honeywell and others >>>>> Current backlog of $70 - $80 Million · Rolls Royce forecasts that the civil aeronautics market will be 465 Billion in sales over the next twenty years. >>>>>> GE Power System's Division has 40 Billion in backlog of orders for turbines for power generation +>+>+> ABOUT NEW CENTURY COMPANIES, INC.: > NCNY, under its brand name Century Turn, specializes in manufacturing, remanufacturing and retrofitting machine tools, primarily Vertical Boring Mills and large turning lathes. >> Solving the current power crisis by offering remanufactured Vertical Boring Mills, the company saves millions of dollars per year in energy cost by re-utilizing the major casting of each Vertical Boring Mill. These savings (generally 40-60%) allow NCNY to be the most price competitive manufacturer of "VBM's" in the USA. >>> Delivery times of remanufactured equipment are quarter the industry standard (3 mos. vs. 14 mos.) >>>> Company has completed its $2 million dollar expenditure on product development for it's patent pending "Century Turn" product line. >>>>> Founded in 1996, NCNY has been profitable since its inception (excluding non-recurring R&D expense). >>>>>> CEO David Duquette, brings over 30 years experience in the machine tool business +>+>+> CAPITAL STRUCTURE AND FINANCIAL HIGHLIGHTS: > NCNY has 46 million shares outstanding and 16 million shares in the float. >> Combined companies will have annual revenues approaching $50 million in profitable sales. >>> Company intends to make NASDAQ application by year end 2001. For the month of July, typically a seasonally slow booking month, sales increased from $521,000 a year prior, to $3.2M for the month. >>>> Company plans to acquire a modern 43,000 sq.ft. state-of-the-art manufacturing facility tripling NCNY's current space. >>===================================>> DISCLAIMER Wallstreet Universe is an independent electronic publication providing information on selected companies. All statements and expressions are the opinion of Wallstreet Universe and are not meant to be either investment advice or a solicitation or recommendation to buy, sell, or hold securities. Investing in micro-cap securities is highly speculative and carries an extremely high degree of risk. Wallstreet Universe is not a registered investment advisor or a broker dealer. It is possible that an investor's investment may be lost or impaired due to the speculative nature of the companies profiled. This report relies on information provided by the featured Companies and/or third parties. While Wallstreet Universe believes its sources to be reliable, we make no representation or warranty as to the accuracy of the information provided. Readers should not rely solely on the information contained in this publication, but should consult with their own independent tax, business and financial advisors with respect to any investment opportunity, including any contemplated investment in the advertised Company. Factual statements in this publication are made as of the date stated and are subject to change without notice. Wallstreet Universe is not responsible for any claims made by the Company. We have prepared this report, drawing upon a range of public news, the company's website and information from sources in the industry, as well as data and opinions provided by the company. Wallstreet Universe has not independently verified the Company's representations. Any opinions expressed in this report are statements of judgment as of the date of publication. We urge readers to carefully verify all presentations within the report independently. The receipt of this publication shall not create, under any circumstances, any implication that there has been no change in the affairs of the company profiled since the date of review. This advertisement does not provide an analysis of the Company's financial position. Wallstreet Universe was paid up to $2,250 Free Trading Shares and $2,250 Restricted Shares by LH Investor Relations. Furthermore, associates of Wallstreet Universe may have stock positions on profiled companies from time to time. We may profit in the event the shares of the Company profiled by us increase in value. These positions may be liquidated from time to time even after we have made positive comments regarding the Company. The receipt of this information constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions. SAFE HARBOR FOR FORWARD-LOOKING STATEMENTS: Except for historical information contained herein, the statements on this website and newsletter are forward-looking statements that are made pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Reform Act of 1995. Forward-looking statements involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties, which may cause a company's actual results in the future periods to differ materially from forecasted results. These risks and uncertainties include, among other things, product price volatility, product demand, market competition and risk inherent in the companies operations. You can identify these statements by the fact that they do not relate strictly to historical or current facts. They use words such as "anticipate," "estimate," "expect," "project," "intend," "plan," "anticipate," "guess," "think," "hear," "suggest," "believe" and other words and terms of similar meaning in connection with any discussion of future operating or financial performance. <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks at toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks at toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.xm4.37kh From honig at sprynet.com Sun Nov 25 11:44:58 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 11:44:58 -0800 Subject: Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011125100304.04ffb478@pioneer.limbo.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011125114458.007b2850@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:08 AM 11/25/01 -0800, Max Inux wrote: >MY only question in regards to this topic are these: How many members of this mailing list have been selected for search? How many of these are NOT registered republicans or democrats? You need to know more to answer your doubts. You need to know background rates. FWIW I'm a registered lib and fly out of an airport with a bronze sculpture of John Wayne monthly; I've not felt singled out. >While I was selected (both going and returning to Ca) I talked to people at the table, none of them were dems or repubs (I was registered libertarian, one guy was green and another libertarian). > >Is there algorithm really "What are they registered to vote"? Certain flights are going to have certain demographics -are you on a biz shuttle w/ dot-commers to SF or a grandma & kids flight to Disneyland? What fraction of citizens are registered as Demopublicans anyway? .... I'm not belittling your questions or claims but I'm pointing out you have to look at how much others are hassled too. I've seen upper crust whitehaired women get hassled more than hirsuit me because I have the fractional clue to remove metal from my person, and don't wear steel-toed boots. Or earrings, chains, rings, belt buckles, etc. >From what I gather, their pre-boarding 'random' checks are *quality control* on their regular magnetometer/screening points. From mkrickert at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 11:50:32 2001 From: mkrickert at earthlink.net (Mark) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 11:50:32 -0800 Subject: Remove In-Reply-To: <94055A232C5BCB45848533711662C771CC12@lightlaneserver.lightlanesoftware.com> Message-ID: <000401c175ea$72ef5890$2000a8c0@lightlanesoftware.com> Remove -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 9:12 PM To: hell at einstein.ssz.com; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: The Village Voice: Features: Assault on Liberty: Abandoning the Constitution to Military Tribunals by Nat Hentoff http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0147/hentoff.php -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 25 09:52:02 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 11:52:02 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | McAfee Will Ignore FBI Spyware Message-ID: <3C012FC2.60E18AFE@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/24/2324241.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at hyperreal.pl Sun Nov 25 03:57:33 2001 From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: 25 Nov 2001 11:57:33 -0000 Subject: IP: Wanna make biological weapons and take out cities? $10. (fwd) Message-ID: <3f8f8ab4ded21a17d7dbda1b8e5ac79f@hyperreal.pl> >unmonitored is rather like saying that Osama bin Laden is only running terrorism >training camps, producing snazzy recruitment videos, publishing terrorism So you agree, then, that tax-paying US subjects are bona fide targets because they shelter and support US-based men with guns ("government") that killed more (per capita) than any other gang ? And, agent Gordon, if you continue to use "we" someone could get irritated enough to snuff someone. You may use "we" only when in company of exclusively government-paid goons. There are few on this list left which are not. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sun Nov 25 13:09:51 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:09:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: HDCP break and DMCA In-Reply-To: <20011125161034.C7131@cluebot.com> from "Declan McCullagh" at Nov 25, 2001 04:10:34 PM Message-ID: <200111252109.fAPL9u128043@artifact.psychedelic.net> Declan opines: > (Note Dmitry has been indicted because he and his company were selling > software to circumvent copy protection.) Had they given the software away for free, or published code for the crack, they might have actually done some damage to copyright holders. Instead, they charged enough money for it to raise the height of the bar above casual and frivolous use. Why this is viewed as an aggrevating circumstance by the DCMA, as opposed to a mitigating one, is anyones guess. Why don't people copy paperback books? Because it is cheaper to buy them. Not because the paperback book copyright police threaten you with life in prison. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From schear at lvcm.com Sun Nov 25 13:23:30 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:23:30 -0800 Subject: CP archive problem? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011125132119.043795a8@pop3.lvcm.com> I've been trying to access http://www.inet-one.com for two days and have getting DNS errors. Anyone else on @home with the same trouble? Might be a good time to switch to alternate root servers. steve From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 25 13:23:42 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:23:42 -0800 Subject: HDCP break and DMCA In-Reply-To: <200111252109.fAPL9u128043@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 01:09 PM, Eric Cordian wrote: > Why don't people copy paperback books? Because it is cheaper to buy > them. > Not because the paperback book copyright police threaten you with life > in > prison. > Why don't people copy hardback books? Answer: they do! Go to any large copying center near a university and look for "professor packs" or "HistCon 101 Course Materials" consisting of copied material out of various textbooks, hard and soft. The deal is that the student takes the professor pack over to a copy machine and runs off a copy of each of the, for example, 400 pages. The student pays $20 or so and saves himself having to buy 10 books to read one or two chapters or sections out of each. The students are happy, the copy shop is happy, the professor is happy, and only the publishers and authors are unhappy. This was very common here in Santa Cruz, as recently as several years ago when I was doing a lot of copying of my own papers. There were signs up about not violating copyright law, but these professor packs were in clear violation. (Yeah, someone may say "Maybe the professors made an arrangement with the publishers and authors." I give this a vanishingly small chance of being the case in more than 2% of all such "course materials" packs.) I've heard that national chains, like Kinko's, are less involved in this trade. Deeper pockets, easier to threaten. (It used to be common at, ironically, the very first Kinko's, in Isla Vista, CA. The year I arrived, ironically.) As for paperback books being cheaper to copy, I've copied several paperbound books that "cost too much." --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 14:38:15 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 14:38:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: CP archive problem? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011125223815.80200.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> > I haven't been able to hit it for a week now. It's why I signed up to the > list again... That's why its DNS is down :-))) ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From kmself at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 25 14:53:16 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 14:53:16 -0800 Subject: HDCP break and DMCA In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 01:23:42PM -0800 References: <200111252109.fAPL9u128043@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <20011125145316.A26715@navel.introspect> on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 01:23:42PM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote: > On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 01:09 PM, Eric Cordian wrote: > > Why don't people copy paperback books? Because it is cheaper to buy > > them. > > Not because the paperback book copyright police threaten you with > > life in prison. > Why don't people copy hardback books? > > Answer: they do! Go to any large copying center near a university and > look for "professor packs" or "HistCon 101 Course Materials" > consisting of copied material out of various textbooks, hard and soft. > The deal is that the student takes the professor pack over to a copy > machine and runs off a copy of each of the, for example, 400 pages. > The student pays $20 or so and saves himself having to buy 10 books to > read one or two chapters or sections out of each. The students are > happy, the copy shop is happy, the professor is happy, and only the > publishers and authors are unhappy. First: this is somewhat orthogonal: - Only a portion of the book is being copied. This makes the reproduction cost significantly different from the sale cost of the authorized book. - Materials from many sources are being assimilated, raising total costs; and the holding period for the materials is generally short (the duration of a quarter or semester). Production-quality bindings and archive-quality paper aren't required. Second: where exactly is this occuring? You seem to indicate smaller shops. I worked at Kinko's during the period 1989 - 1992, largely serving UC Davis. This was during the period Kinko's was involved in a large copyright infringement suit (Basic Books v. Kinko's, ultimately lost by Kinko's to the tune of US$1.3m) over the issue of "Professor Publishing", the coursepack preparation service. As Tim indicated, this was a core of Kinko's business model from the company's founding in Santa Barbara in the early 1970s. Kinko's, at least, of major copy centers, has significantly revised its processes, both securing copyright clearance on more (most?) of the materials, and deemphasizing the role of Professor Publishing within Kinko's. At the time I left the company, there was a strong awareness for all employees about making unauthorized copies (and you'll occasionally hear stories about people who're denied service to copy materials they own), at least when this is done "behind the counter". What customers did in the self-serve area was largely unregulated. > This was very common here in Santa Cruz, as recently as several years > ago when I was doing a lot of copying of my own papers. Care to name any of the shops at which this was occuring? Kinko's, AlphaGraphics (are they still around?), and other high-profile repro shops tend to have fairly strong policies regarding unauthorized copying. The same tends to extend to copy centers run by colleges and universities. Smaller, privately held shops tend to play faster and looser. > There were signs up about not violating copyright law, but these > professor packs were in clear violation. > > (Yeah, someone may say "Maybe the professors made an arrangement with > the publishers and authors." I give this a vanishingly small chance of > being the case in more than 2% of all such "course materials" packs.) In the case of Kinko's, the covered materials were most if not all in my experience, with a sheet listing clearances added to packs by the time I'd left. There's also the Copyright Clearance Center (CCC: http://www.copyright.com/), formed in the 1970s, which has played a significant role in recent photocopy copyright infringement claims as, as its existence has "removed any excuse for unauthorized copying" (Paul Goldstein, _Copyright's Highway_, Hill & Wang, 1994). Peace. Tim May excepted. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 25 15:05:18 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 15:05:18 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality Message-ID: For many years some of us have argued strongly for "reputation" as a core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the phrase "reputation capital." Reputation is an easily understandable concept which explains a lot about how imperfect protocols in the real world nevertheless "work." I won't go into what reputation is, even as defined by folks like us. But there are many aspects of reputation which lead to problems: 1. The assumption that an agent or actor possesses a "reputation." A kind of scalar number attached to a person, a bank, an institution, or even a nym. 2. When in fact different people have different assessments of some agent's reputation. Thus suggesting strongly that reputation is not something attached as simply as above. 3. All of the nonsense about how "Alice's reputation has been harmed," deriving from the faulty notion of this scalar property attached to Alice. Aren't we stuck with reputation? No, a broader ontology of objects and beliefs about them is a better way to go. The "reputation of the dollar" is related to my belief, and the belief of billions of others around the planet, that for whatever reason a piece of paper with the right markings on it will in fact be accepted by billions of others, by millions of small banks and moneychangers, and even by the U.S. Government. And the related belief that loans, IOUs, promissory notes, bonds, and numerous other instruments denominated in these "dollars" will very likely be accepted or exchanged, blah blah, by millions or billions of other actors. Such is not the case with Monopoly money or even with E-gold. Thus, what is the "reputation of the dollar"? Is it because of foolproof anti-forgery measures? Is it because of the laws of the U.S.? Etc.? No, it is a kind of collective hallucination. Before James Donald freaks out and cites Objectivist arguments that Some Things Are Real, etc., let me point out that "collective hallucination" is mostly a cute phrase. In actuality, our perception of reality is more than just an opium dream. Empiricism, falsifiability, Popper, all that good stuff. But our monetary system is vastly less provably real than the world of atoms and stars is. Because money is fundamentally about bets on the future: will something be exchanged for something else, will governments support what they print, what will the dollar be worth in 5 years, etc. All crypto is economics. All money is based on belief. All a matter of "betting," of risk/benefit analysis. Related concepts, of course. Even slightly flawed protocols still "work," given the right embeddings in other systems. (For example, a common flaw cited with remailers is that if there is not enough cover traffic, traceability still exists. But exactly the same flaw exists with money: try getting untraceability with coins if only a few coins exist. Ditto for bearer bonds. Ditto for lots of things where the "protocol fails for small N" but works reasonably well--in the "betting" sense--when a lot of actors are trading a lot of coins and currency. The value of a monetary token is NOT something that is determined by precise mathematical protocols. It's a value based on _belief_ or _expectation_ about the behaviors of other actors, and about the future. Currency suspected of being counterfeit may sell for 10 cents on the dollar, to a sophisticated buyer, while currency suspected of being legit may or may not sell for at or near face value. (Even perfectly legit currency would sell at a discount in large quanties, probably, because a buyer would be a money launderer. Hence the discount for risk. That is, a market decision based on the obvious tradeoffs.) Back to reputations. Seen as part of a larger ecology of a "market construction of reality," there are no fixed or absolute values, no fixed or absolute truths. Some assertions are "many nines" likely to be true, and some are even constructed to be true (*) (* As in "2 + 2 = 4," though the streetwise person who says "What's the trick?" is realizing that even "known to be true" assertions may not be true, as in base 3. Magicians and con men have known this for a long time.) Thus, there is no fixed "reputation" of either a person, an idea, or a unit of value. Everything is a matter of belief, of expectation... Instead of an ontology of objects and their attached methods and property lists, including "reputations" and "monetary values," we should be thinking in terms of these objects as just other actors, with each actor maintaining his own internal model of "possible worlds" (how he thinks the other actors will behave, what he thinks may be future outcomes, what his own goals and expectations are). Seen this way, there is no "reputation" or "value" that is universal. Everything is relative. Everything is seen through the light of internal states/possible worlds. This is the market view of reality. There is no "Reality." Just ensembles of actors, various facets, incomplete knowledge...all lubricated by betting. Every street kid knows this. Digital money is just one facet of this worldview. --Tim May "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -- Nietzsche From measl at mfn.org Sun Nov 25 13:43:29 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 15:43:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: CP archive problem? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011125132119.043795a8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: According to the registry, their record was modified yesterday (24 November). In addition, I am unable to reach either of their authoritative name servers - their upstream may in fact be off the air completely. With the recent change in their record, it is possible they made changes to their dns server addresses, and the new addressed were botched in the process (something I went through several weeks ago - it appears to be quite difficult to get the new registrars to properly move dns hosts). I guess the next step would be email to their admins, and possibly a NANOG request... On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:23:30 -0800 > From: Steve Schear > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: CDR: CP archive problem? > > I've been trying to access http://www.inet-one.com for two days and have > getting DNS errors. Anyone else on @home with the same trouble? Might be > a good time to switch to alternate root servers. > > steve > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at bounty.org Sun Nov 25 15:53:42 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 15:53:42 -0800 Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <001d01c1756d$82dc3840$0490ccd5@dcut5krzcydjde> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 24, 2001, at 08:56 PM, scum wrote: > Atheists who claim to be anti-theism are either (a) not > atheists, or (b) mis-understand what theism is. > > If we spend a quality minute in the real world, one or two > things of what capitalism is and what anarchism is not will be evident. > life without government > vs. > Texaco Would you like to attempt to make a meaningful argument out of that? Is this the result of you not knowing english well, or are you a bloody idiot? -- Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws. Plato (427-347 B.C.) From recip at a1-online-marketing-advertising.com Sun Nov 25 16:00:40 2001 From: recip at a1-online-marketing-advertising.com (Gloria) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:00:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reciprocal Links Message-ID: <200111251920.23w9r9A@192.168.0.2> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Sun Nov 25 13:01:53 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:01:53 -0500 Subject: Anonymizing Scam In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@dizum.com on Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:10:08PM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20011125160153.B7131@cluebot.com> "Nomen" makes a reasonable point. There is nothing objectionable about Lance selling anonymizer.com accounts to the Feds (or with a crypto-company selling crypto-ware to the Feds, not least since they'll get the software or service one way or another). If you treat 'em the same way you treat any other paying company, and I suspect that is the case with Lance, John's allegation of "sucking up" to espionage and law enforcement agencies is uncalled for. -Declan On Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:10:08PM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: > John Young writes: > > > Below are strange statements coming from Lance Cottrell. > > Is there no anonymizer that is not sucking up to the TLAs? > > Worse, has there ever been? > > Are you implying that Lance Cottrell is making anonymous surfing data > available to security agencies? That is a strong accusation and if you > want to make it, you should do so explicitly. You are calling him a > liar and a fraud. > > Nothing in the article you quote gives you any foundation for such > a claim. All it says is that agencies are using Anonymizer to browse > anonymously, just like its other customers. Any crypto technology, if > it is truly useful, can be used by government agencies as well as others. > > One might as well accuse you of conspiracy since cryptome often serves > TLAs: You fraud! You are saving people's access patterns to your files > and making them available to the police! How dare you! > > These accusations are as unfounded as those you made against Lance. > Those who make such claims should provide evidence and not innuendo. > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/11/20/privacy.reut/index.html > > > > One company that is still making money off privacy is > > Anonymizer.com, a San Diego-based company that offers > > anonymous Web surfing for $50 a year, or $5 a month. The > > company has 20,000 active subscribers, said President Lance > > Cottrell. > > > > "We're still seeing very strong growth," Cottrell said. "Most > > people are looking to prevent their boss, insurance company, > > spouse, ISP (Internet Service Provider) from knowing where > > they're going." > > > > Even so, Anonymizer.com began a push six months ago to > > market its service to corporations, including law and investigation > > firms, and the U.S. government, he said. > > > > "Intelligence agencies have been using us for years, especially > > since September 11," Cottrell said. "They use us to keep an eye > > on bad guy sites" with covert monitoring. > > > > ----- > > > > The pattern: initial big deal about helping the public protect its > > privacy, then boom, a later revelation it was impossible to > > continue ... well, the reasons vary, but the cover story is always > > the need for money, the Judas rationale. > > > > Meanwhile, the fabulous surfing data archive allegedly inviolate, or > > never retained, or no way to ever know who was using the > > service, that is the data all free-gift marketers aim to collect. > > > > Were any anonymizing archives ever trashed or truly protected > > against concurrent snarfing? Is Safeweb laughing like ZKS, > > like Lance? First, the US, then EU, then CN, all the way to > > MD. > > > > What does this say about commercial anonymizing services, > > and remailers? And crypto, especially free PGP, and the honeypot > > AES? From declan at well.com Sun Nov 25 13:10:34 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:10:34 -0500 Subject: HDCP break and DMCA In-Reply-To: <1d424abd617de279a90b56732c18ba2b@mixmaster.nullify.org>; from anonymous@mixmaster.nullify.org on Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 03:50:49AM -0600 References: <1d424abd617de279a90b56732c18ba2b@mixmaster.nullify.org> Message-ID: <20011125161034.C7131@cluebot.com> What makes you, Incognito, believe the DMCA may "criminalize" the publication of a scientific paper? What makes you believe that Niels Ferguson's worry was not hyperbole, or a PR stunt designed to garner press? What makes you think that a scientific paper would generate even civil liability? The DMCA may be a terrible law, sure, but let's keep criticisms grounded in reality. The relevant section of the DMCA is only a few pages long; let's hear how this could apply to scientists. -Declan (Note Dmitry has been indicted because he and his company were selling software to circumvent copy protection.) On Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 03:50:49AM -0600, Incognito Innominatus wrote: > Congratulations to Ian Goldberg, David Wagner and other cryptographers > for publishing a break of the HDCP standard for encrypting video data. > This was intended to be used between HDTV decoders and displays, for > example, to allow digital communication between them in encrypted form so > that it could not be captured and shared. The paper by Crosby et al at > http://nunce.org/hdcp/hdcp111901.htm is a thorough break of the system, > which unfortunately is not fielded yet so you can't use the exploit to > steal HDTV. > > The big question is what about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, > which potentially criminalizes such research? We heard a great deal this > past summer about what a threat the DMCA was to legitimate cryptographic > research, and about how the exemptions in the DMCA weren't worth > the paper they were printed on. One cryptographer, Niels Ferguson, > refused to publish his break for fear of prosecution under the DMCA, > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46091,00.html. > > It would be interesting to hear the perspective of any of the researchers > involved as to whether they are concerned about the DMCA. Do they view > themselves as creating a possible test case? Or are they simply going > to ignore the DMCA and go about their lives, doing their work on the > assumption that such a bad law will ultimately not hold up in court? From grocha at neutraldomain.org Sun Nov 25 16:10:59 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:10:59 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 03:05:18PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011125161059.B44340@neutraldomain.org> On Sun, Nov 25, at 03:05PM, Tim May wrote | Thus, what is the "reputation of the dollar"? Is it because of foolproof | anti-forgery measures? Is it because of the laws of the U.S.? Etc.? | | No, it is a kind of collective hallucination. It is not a "Collective hallucination" unless you take into account the fact that the dollar (substittute your local fiat currency here) is nothing more than a piece of paper issued by the US government with no guarantees whatsoever of its redeemability at any given point in time. | All crypto is economics. All money is based on belief. All a matter of | "betting," of risk/benefit analysis. Related concepts, of course. Money isn't so much a "belief" as it is a medium of exchange. I do agree that it is the de facto medium of exchange because of the belief that people put into the fact that they will be able to exchange it for other things later on, but I believe that is actually besides the point depending on how you refer to money. Money as was the case 150 years ago was not really a betting idea. Money was gold, gold was money and gold was not only money, it was also a tangible item in and of itself. Perhaps during the times of 100% gold backed currency (I mean the Rothbard idea of banks being nothing more than warehouses) there was belief system somewhere, but even then, "money" was actually gold substitute, the "dollar" meant nothing more than a certain quantity of gold. Perhaps in todays world you are right in the idea that money is nothing more than a hallucination, I agree with that statement even. But I would venture into saying that the world we live in today is a hystorical exception, in no other time than in the last hundred (ok, hundred and one, almost two) was money represented in such meaningless terms as it is now, with nothing to back it up. (even gold was never backed up by anything other than belief in its tradeability, but then gold is "useful" and "valued" for others uses than trading. What "use" is a dollar bill? Perhaps the Swiss Franc has artistic value, but if you're not cold and in dire need of something to burn for warmth, todays "money" is for all intents and purposes useles.) | Back to reputations. | Thus, there is no fixed "reputation" of either a person, an idea, or a | unit of value. Everything is a matter of belief, of expectation... There is nothing fixed in this world, if you have no boundries set. If everything is a belief or expectation, I would have to say that some beliefs and some expectations are stronger than others...some by orders of magnatude. | Digital money is just one facet of this worldview. I would still say that the reputation problem is one of the greatest of the problems facing digital money, govenments aside. Perhaps the problem should be referred to as bad PR instead. (Digital money needs a better marketting department.) No offense intended, but other than a few points in the email, I failed to miss the punchline. --Gabe -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. From alli_k77 at excite.com Sun Nov 25 16:20:52 2001 From: alli_k77 at excite.com (ALLI KATSINA) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:20:52 Subject: PROPOSAL Message-ID: <200111251518.HAA15606@ecotone.toad.com> Dr ALLI KATSINA NIGERIAN NATIONAL PETROLEUM CORPORATION FEDERAL SECRETARIAT, FALOMO- LAGOS, NIGERIA. Tel:234.1.7752307 Fax: 234-1-7597054 Dear Sir, BUSINESS PROPOSAL: TRANSFER OF US$ 25.5 M (TWENTY FIVE MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES DOLLARS). First, I must solicit your trust and strictest confidence in this transaction; this is by nature of the top-secret information I am about to divulge to you. You were introduced to us by a mutual acquaintance from the Nigerian Chamber of Commerce, Foreign Trade Division, who does not know of the nature of what I am about to introduce to you. He only knows that I have some funds to invest abroad, hence he recommended you. I am the Director of Engineering & Project of the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation (N.N.P.C) in Lagos, Nigeria. I am seeking your assistance to enable me transfer the sum of US$41,500,000.00 into your private company account for mutual benefits. This money came about as a result of a contract for the supply of two thousand, three hundred and sixty-seven computer unit, installation and the Y2K compliance turn-around maintenance executed on behalf of my Ministry (N.N.P.C), in the year 1999. This contract was officially assigned to be awarded and executed by two foreign contractors at the tune of US$105,500,000.00, but in the course of my negotiation, I bargained with only one foreign contractor, a Bulgarian firm which now executed the contract at the cost ofUS$64.000.000.00. Thus leaving the remaining US$41.5M floating in the escrow account of the Central Bank of Nigeria (C.B.N) to the benefits of we the three members of the contract award panel unknown to the contractor and any other person in my Ministry. This contract has been satisfactorily executed and inspected as the Bulgarian firm is presently securing his payment from my Ministry. It is however to this effect that I seek your maximum assistance and approval to present your company name alongside with the Bulgarian contractor as the second foreign contractor to enable me transfer the difference (US$41.5M) into your account for further investment depending on your advice. On actualization of the transaction, the funds will be shared thus: 1. 30% of the money go to you for acting as the beneficiary of the funds. 2. 10% for reimbursement to both parties for incidental expenses that may be incurred in the course of the transaction for insurance phone bills, documentation etc. 3. 60% to we three members of the Contract Award Panel. All logistics are in place and all modalities worked out for the smooth actualization of the transaction within fourteen working days of commencement after receipt of the following information by fax: Your company‘s Name. Address. Phone/Fax number and activities. Also, if we opt for electronic transfer only other than payment by solar bank draft or cash call programme, then your bank account particulars. The above information will enable me make the application and lodge claims to the concerned Ministries in favour of your company or name and it is pertinent to state here that this deal is entirely based on trust and the fear of God. If you are able to handle, feel free to reach me by fax on: 234-1-7597054. Also furnish me with your own phone and fax numbers, as I will be sending you immediately I receive your positive response some classified documents. Thanks in anticipation for your positive response. Yours faithfully. DR ALLI KATSINA From declan at well.com Sun Nov 25 13:32:35 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:35 -0500 Subject: Bell Trial Transcripts In-Reply-To: ; from jya@pipeline.com on Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 08:22:55PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011125163235.D7131@cluebot.com> On Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 08:22:55PM -0800, John Young wrote: > http://cryptome.org/usa-v-jdb-dt.htm Ah, thanks for buying these and placing them online. Kept meaning to buy the transcript of my own testimony, but that never made its way off the to-do list. > Finally, I got to read Declan's testimony and he deserves > a prize if what he said is true. I think you'll find that, like most people, journalists are not in the habit of lying under oath. -Declan From rah at shipwright.com Sun Nov 25 13:49:15 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:49:15 -0500 Subject: CP archive problem? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011125132119.043795a8@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011125132119.043795a8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: At 1:23 PM -0800 on 11/25/01, Steve Schear wrote: > I've been trying to access http://www.inet-one.com for two days and have > getting DNS errors. Anyone else on @home with the same trouble? Might be > a good time to switch to alternate root servers. I haven't been able to hit it for a week now. It's why I signed up to the list again... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org Sun Nov 25 15:15:04 2001 From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:15:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: No subject Message-ID: > Ptero Wrote: >> Declan McCullagh wrote: >> I have little interest in debating with someone who believes in >> criminalizing the publication and distribution (and also, apparently, >> the purchasing) of scientific and technical information. >> >> One might as well debate the merits of concealed carry .40 caliber vs. >> 9mm handguns with a Handgun Control lobbyist. > Neither one is significantly better to waste the time arguing about. Ive always found the .40 to be +significantly+ better at wasting HCI lobbyists. From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 17:24:52 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:24:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <20011125161059.B44340@neutraldomain.org> Message-ID: <20011126012452.50035.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> > There is nothing fixed in this world, if you have no boundries set. > If everything is a belief or expectation, I would have to say that > some beliefs and some expectations are stronger than others...some > by orders of magnatude. Are you saying that governments are providing a valuable service by propping up arbitrary prohibitions and thus establish a value system against which we can bang our heads ? ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From grocha at neutraldomain.org Sun Nov 25 17:44:41 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:44:41 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <20011126012452.50035.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>; from morlockelloi@yahoo.com on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 05:24:52PM -0800 References: <20011125161059.B44340@neutraldomain.org> <20011126012452.50035.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011125174441.C44340@neutraldomain.org> On Sun, Nov 25, at 05:24PM, Morlock Elloi wrote: | Are you saying that governments are providing a valuable service by propping up | arbitrary prohibitions and thus establish a value system against which we can | bang our heads ? If you got that out of the quote you left in the email I am lost ;-p But as a general rule, no. Keeping in mind of course that "value" is subjective, because arbitrary regulations are in fact very valuable, ask the Kennedys. The problem with prohibitions (which are never arbitrary) is that they make for an uneven playing field in the great game of "The free Market" thus hurting the whole, but often there are those (few though they may be) who profit from prohibitions. --Gabe -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Sun Nov 25 19:05:02 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 19:05:02 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011120224049.04cba980@bivens.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <005a01c17627$24856a90$1801fea9@LUCKYVAIO> Greg wrote: > That's very warm and fuzzy and hippy-like, but if these > tokens are handed > out for free, then what, exactly, is their value? > > I think the Extropians did something like that, which ended > in some sort of > fiasco which some cypherpunks were involved in, though I > don't know the > details and was never a participant in that list/social circle. I am unfamiliar with the Extropian electronic token experiment, but I as the first person on the planet to have conducted an Ecash-to-fiat currency transaction, I can assure you that somebody out there may well be willing to pay real cash for freely minted tokens. (I was on the Ecash selling side. The USD 35 for which I sold my Ecash beta tokens are still in my filing cabinet). --Lucky From honig at sprynet.com Sun Nov 25 19:30:22 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 19:30:22 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011125193022.007b6a10@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:05 PM 11/25/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: >For many years some of us have argued strongly for "reputation" as a >core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the >phrase "reputation capital." I recently posted how ground squirrels have rep cap. >Reputation is an easily understandable concept which explains a lot >about how imperfect protocols in the real world nevertheless "work." I >won't go into what reputation is, even as defined by folks like us. It seemed to be something like hits & false alarm (and probably misses and correct rejections) counts for squirrels. The same info is of use to neurons. Various computer learning algorithms too. An efficient use of persistant state, one would expect. >1. The assumption that an agent or actor possesses a "reputation." A >kind of scalar number attached to a person, a bank, an institution, or >even a nym. Two kinds of entities: one maintains reputations, the other doesn't. Guess which is exploited to extinction? ... Again CPunks -or other analysts- are not *advocating* nearly as much as some might like to believe; instead IMHO there is a public discussion going on about essentially inevitable trends we've observed. From bfc at centurytel.net Sun Nov 25 19:38:42 2001 From: bfc at centurytel.net (Ross) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 19:38:42 Subject: Collecting Bad Checks Just Got A Whole Lot Easier Message-ID: <200111260135.RAA10713@toad.com> I Call us at 715-385-3232 or email us at bfc at centurytel.net and we will send you information on our FREE service for collecting NSF checks. From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 25 20:11:12 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 20:11:12 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011125193022.007b6a10@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 07:30 PM, David Honig wrote: > At 03:05 PM 11/25/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: >> For many years some of us have argued strongly for "reputation" as a >> core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the >> phrase "reputation capital." > > I recently posted how ground squirrels have rep cap. > I read that. I thought a better description was the more traditional one: squirrels can learn. > > Again CPunks -or other analysts- are not *advocating* nearly as much as > some > might like to believe; instead IMHO there is a public discussion > going on about essentially inevitable trends we've observed. I have no problem being characterized as an "advocate." But I also agree that many of the media frenzies are about things most clueful people knew were nearly inevitable. (Just today there was discussion on CNN about how technical papers on cloning may need to be restricted. More forbidden knowledge. Cf. discussions in 1992 on medical information data havens. In the words of the Big Brother fan we heard from recently, "The government should certainly follow and monitor anyone who buys books on cloning.") --Tim May "The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 25 20:20:50 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 20:20:50 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <005a01c17627$24856a90$1801fea9@LUCKYVAIO> Message-ID: On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 07:05 PM, Lucky Green wrote: > Greg wrote: >> That's very warm and fuzzy and hippy-like, but if these >> tokens are handed >> out for free, then what, exactly, is their value? >> >> I think the Extropians did something like that, which ended >> in some sort of >> fiasco which some cypherpunks were involved in, though I >> don't know the >> details and was never a participant in that list/social circle. > > I am unfamiliar with the Extropian electronic token experiment, but I as > the first person on the planet to have conducted an Ecash-to-fiat > currency transaction, I can assure you that somebody out there may well > be willing to pay real cash for freely minted tokens. (I was on the > Ecash selling side. The USD 35 for which I sold my Ecash beta tokens are > still in my filing cabinet). I believe Greg may have been referring to a "reputation market" experiment, circa 1993. Each list subscriber was given some number of tokens and then a market in reputations was "declared." People could buy and sell shares in the reputations of anyone, including themselves. The thought was that prices would go up on those reputations people thought the price would go up on. Issues of the "real" reputation were secondary issues (i.e., if people thought someone was a turkey, they probably wouldn't expect his rep to go up, despite the artificial nature of the market). I think the guy who wrote the market software was living in Salt Lake City at the time, but I could be misremembering. I don't remember his name, and my archives from back then are in a jumble. One thing that was interesting was the opportunity to manipulate the market. I offered to buy tokens from others, for cash. One person sold me all of his tokens for the agreed-upon price of $20. I sent him the money and he mailed his tokens to me. I then proceeded to use my extra "wealth" to bid up the value of my own reputation. The tokens were not cryptographically-strong forms of digital cash, but they worked for the intended purpose. (That is, no one tried to forge them, at least not successfully.) --Tim May "The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able may have a gun." --Patrick Henry "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 25 20:25:57 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 20:25:57 -0800 Subject: HDCP break and DMCA In-Reply-To: <3C01AE23.DF75BF29@mozcom.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 06:51 PM, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Tim May wrote: >> >> There were signs up about not violating copyright law, but these >> professor packs were in clear violation. > > Really? Sounds to me like they fall under "Fair Use." That provision > specifically exempts copying for research or education. I strongly doubt this. "Fair use" is not about setting up alternate publishing schemes, but is about quoting relevant sections, collecting material for research purposes, etc. If it were as broad as you claim, why would _any_ school buy textbooks for its students when it could make a photocopy for a fraction of the cost? Schools could simply digitize textbooks once and then distribute them on CD-ROM. I'm not a copyright expert, but I strongly doubt what you say above. --Tim May "That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Sun Nov 25 21:59:24 2001 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 21:59:24 -0800 Subject: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008601c1763f$804d2080$1801fea9@LUCKYVAIO> [Redundant/inappropriate lists elided]. The page at Amazon. COM claims that the book in question will ship in December of this year. I seem to recall having read announcements in years past that the book would ship in the respective years. Methinks that a mere claim of a future ship date in 2001 may be considered insufficient proof that the condition of the wager has been met by at least one of the parties to the wager. Just my $0.02, --Lucky, who will order the book once it ships. Which unfortunately has yet to come to pass. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-coderpunks at toad.com > [mailto:owner-coderpunks at toad.com] On Behalf Of R. A. Hettinga > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:18 AM > To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com; coderpunks at toad.com; > dcsb at ai.mit.edu; e$@vmeng.com; mac-crypto at vmeng.com; Digital > Bearer Settlement List > Subject: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier > > > > --- begin forwarded text > > > Status: U > Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:45:04 -0500 > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > From: Matthew Gaylor > Subject: Order Now: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace > Frontier > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com > > [Note from Matt: I made a small wager in palladium that Vinge's True > Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier would be > available to order prior to Jan. 1, 2002 with a well known > Cypherpunk. And I > won. Acct# 101893.] > > > At 3:03 AM -0700 8/13/01, Well known Cypherpunk wrote: > >Subject: Re: BTW- I'll bet you... > > > >OK - Done deal, if you'll accept the modification that it be > orderable > >and shippable by Amazon or other on-line bookstore within a > week after > >that. > > True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier by Vernor Vinge, James Frenkel (Editor) List Price: $14.95 Our Price: $11.96 You Save: $2.99 (20%) This item will be published in December 2001. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives. See larger photo This item qualifies for free shipping on orders over $99! Click for details Great Buy Buy True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Fron... with The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge today! Total List Price: $42.90 Buy Together Today: $31.52 You Save: $11.38 Paperback - 384 pages (December 2001) Tor Books; ISBN: 0312862075 Amazon.com Sales Rank: 28,271 ************************************************************************ ** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************ ** --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From wcs at idiom.com Mon Nov 26 00:32:46 2001 From: wcs at idiom.com (bill.stewart@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 00:32:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: Robert Morris, IBM Almaden Research * Autonomic Computing * W4:15 Gates B03 (fwd) Message-ID: <200111260832.AAA35761@idiom.com> ----------- Forwarded message ----------- From declan at well.com Sun Nov 25 22:22:21 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 01:22:21 -0500 Subject: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier In-Reply-To: <008601c1763f$804d2080$1801fea9@LUCKYVAIO>; from shamrock@cypherpunks.to on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 09:59:24PM -0800 References: <008601c1763f$804d2080$1801fea9@LUCKYVAIO> Message-ID: <20011126012221.A15278@cluebot.com> I'm supposed to get a review copy mailed Monday. We'll see. -Declan On Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 09:59:24PM -0800, Lucky Green wrote: > [Redundant/inappropriate lists elided]. > > The page at Amazon. COM claims that the book in question will ship in > December of this year. I seem to recall having read announcements in > years past that the book would ship in the respective years. Methinks > that a mere claim of a future ship date in 2001 may be considered > insufficient proof that the condition of the wager has been met by at > least one of the parties to the wager. > > Just my $0.02, > --Lucky, who will order the book once it ships. Which unfortunately has > yet to come to pass. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-coderpunks at toad.com > > [mailto:owner-coderpunks at toad.com] On Behalf Of R. A. Hettinga > > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:18 AM > > To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com; coderpunks at toad.com; > > dcsb at ai.mit.edu; e$@vmeng.com; mac-crypto at vmeng.com; Digital > > Bearer Settlement List > > Subject: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier > > > > > > > > --- begin forwarded text > > > > > > Status: U > > Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:45:04 -0500 > > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > > From: Matthew Gaylor > > Subject: Order Now: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace > > Frontier > > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com > > > > [Note from Matt: I made a small wager in palladium that Vinge's True > > Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier would be > > available to order prior to Jan. 1, 2002 with a well known > > Cypherpunk. And I > > won. Acct# 101893.] > > > > > > At 3:03 AM -0700 8/13/01, Well known Cypherpunk wrote: > > >Subject: Re: BTW- I'll bet you... > > > > > >OK - Done deal, if you'll accept the modification that it be > > orderable > > >and shippable by Amazon or other on-line bookstore within a > > week after > > >that. > > > > > 103-1236763-4454202> > > True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier > by Vernor Vinge, James Frenkel (Editor) > > List Price: $14.95 > Our Price: $11.96 > You Save: $2.99 (20%) > This item will be published in December 2001. You may order it now and > we will ship it to you when it arrives. See larger photo > > This item qualifies for free shipping on orders over $99! Click for > details Great Buy Buy True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace > Fron... with The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge today! Total List > Price: $42.90 Buy Together Today: $31.52 You Save: $11.38 > > > Paperback - 384 pages (December 2001) > Tor Books; ISBN: 0312862075 > > Amazon.com Sales Rank: 28,271 > > > ************************************************************************ > ** > Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a > blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the > subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) > Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ > ************************************************************************ > ** > > --- end forwarded text > > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 > Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve > respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the > world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, > 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bfc at centurytel.net Mon Nov 26 03:13:26 2001 From: bfc at centurytel.net (Ross) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 03:13:26 Subject: Collecting Bad Checks Just Got A Whole Lot Easier. Message-ID: <200111260910.BAA19208@toad.com> We provide FREE electronic collection of NSF checks. This service is 100% FREE to our clients. Our clients receive 100% full face value of collected checks. We get paid by collecting the state approved collection fee. No more phone calls, letters, and waiting for people to come in and pay. For more information on our service email us at bfc at centurytel.net and we will send you more information. From daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu Sun Nov 25 23:00:33 2001 From: daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) Date: 26 Nov 2001 07:00:33 GMT Subject: HDCP break and DMCA References: <1d424abd617de279a90b56732c18ba2b@mixmaster.nullify.org> Message-ID: <9tspah$t0f$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Incognito Innominatus wrote: >It would be interesting to hear the perspective of any of the researchers >involved as to whether they are concerned about the DMCA. Do they view >themselves as creating a possible test case? Or are they simply going >to ignore the DMCA and go about their lives, doing their work on the >assumption that such a bad law will ultimately not hold up in court? I can't speak for any of the other authors, but yes, I am extremely concerned about the DMCA. In the case of HDCP, I spent more time speaking with lawyers than I spent on the cryptographic research itself. As a result of this experience, I don't plan to work in the area of copy protection again so long as this legal shadow hangs over the field. The costs are simply too high. For further information, you can read the declaration I submitted in the Felten case. It is available online at the URL below. http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/Felten_v_RIAA/20011022_wagner_decl.pdf From daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu Sun Nov 25 23:12:47 2001 From: daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) Date: 26 Nov 2001 07:12:47 GMT Subject: HDCP break and DMCA References: <1d424abd617de279a90b56732c18ba2b@mixmaster.nullify.org> <20011125161034.C7131@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <9tsq1f$t0f$2@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Declan McCullagh wrote: >What makes you, Incognito, believe the DMCA may "criminalize" the >publication of a scientific paper? What makes you believe that >Niels Ferguson's worry was not hyperbole, or a PR stunt designed >to garner press? What makes you think that a scientific paper >would generate even civil liability? Well, I spent quite a bit of time talking to lawyers about this very issue, and unfortunately, it does not appear to be mere hyperbole. As much as I'd prefer to believe this is nothing more than hyperbole, the legal experts told me to take this issue very seriously, and I am. As far as I can figure, it seems unlikely that publishing a scientific paper would be fall under the criminal provisions of the DMCA, so "criminalize" is probably inaccurate. However, the potential liability in a civil suit appears to be a significant concern. The key is 1201(b), providing a "technology ... or component thereof", etc., etc. Is a scientific paper that merely describes how to build a circumvention device a "technology or component thereof"? It's simply not clear. The lawyers don't seem to be able to confidently predict how such a case would turn out (and I spoke to several). In other words, there appears to be a real, but unquantifiable risk -- a risk to scientists that cannot be lightly dismissed. Given this risk, I've decided I cannot afford to continue to work in the area of copy protection as long as the uncertainty remains. And how in good conscience can I advise students working with me to work in this troubled area? I can't. From measl at mfn.org Mon Nov 26 05:29:09 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:29:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: CP archive problem? In-Reply-To: <011901c1766e$87a433d0$5300a8c0@marcel> Message-ID: Indded, they appear to be back on the air. I wonder if this was related to the British Telecom meltdown? On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Marcel Popescu wrote: > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:36:03 +0200 > From: Marcel Popescu > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: CDR: Re: CP archive problem? > > > > I've been trying to access http://www.inet-one.com for two days and have > > > getting DNS errors. Anyone else on @home with the same trouble? Might > be > > > a good time to switch to alternate root servers. > > Pinging it from Romania gets this: > > --- > Pinging kuala-lumpur.inet-one.com [202.9.98.124] with 32 bytes of data: > > Reply from 202.9.98.124: bytes=32 time=631ms TTL=221 > --- > > I can open the main page. (I haven't tried the archives though.) > > Mark > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Mon Nov 26 05:30:50 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:30:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Declans testimony;Clone me! In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011126234756.009d41f0@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, mattd wrote: > As an entertainment journalist with a disability Talk about massive understatements... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 26 04:54:15 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:54:15 -0500 Subject: CP archive problem? In-Reply-To: <011901c1766e$87a433d0$5300a8c0@marcel> References: <011901c1766e$87a433d0$5300a8c0@marcel> Message-ID: At 1:36 PM +0200 on 11/26/01, Marcel Popescu wrote: > > I can open the main page. (I haven't tried the archives though.) It's up this morning. It wasn't yesterday, though. Nice to know it was something mechanical, and not political. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From info at infoanddatacenter.com Mon Nov 26 06:08:53 2001 From: info at infoanddatacenter.com (IDC DNA Labs) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:08:53 -0600 Subject: DNA Testing Message-ID: <200111261408.fAQE8q925439@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7673 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 26 08:15:51 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:15:51 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <20011126102819.B11535@cluebot.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011126081551.007b7b40@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:28 AM 11/26/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >It seems to me that reputation capital is a term that has limited >value when applied to something as subjective as the areas above: >having an article published in the editorial pages of the Wall Street >Journal (or the Journal of Socialist Doctrine) may lower your >reputation capital among some people and raise it among others. This >is the nature of subjectivity. Indeed, even when there are objective measures, all parties may not agree because they may not agree on those measures. If Alice Squirrel makes an alarm call and Bob Squirrel sees a threat, but Charlie Squirrel doesn't see it, Bob and Charlie will have different stats for Alice's alarm-call reputation. But rep cap as an idea is surely *stronger* when you keep separate numbers for different qualities -reliable vs. interesting posts, for instance. This is *necessary* since individuals vary greatly within themselves. Politicians with excellent reps on issue A and mediocre reps on issue B, for instance. Perhaps though authors should mention the *attribute* whose reputation is estimated when its not obvious. Similarly authors should state *who* is doing the estimating when its not clear its the author. >Reputation capital is more valuable a term when describing traits that >are less subjective. When dealing with an online ecash bank, you may >want truthfulness and reliability and good customer service (for >example), which are less subjective than "interesting political >opinions." But what counts as "good customer service" varies by culture and person, much like whether WSJ publication helps or hurts. From parinya at pccth.com Sun Nov 25 17:36:11 2001 From: parinya at pccth.com (parinya) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:36:11 +0700 Subject: barcode specifically pdf417 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011126083431.00a6ab18@pop3.pccth.com> i am working on a project, and would appreciate any help you all could offer me. I am trying to figure out how to encode and decode barcodes, the ones listed in the subject line --- pdf417. ive been going through search engines all day, with not too much luck, and was hoping someone might be able to send me some information thanks in advance From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 26 06:11:22 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:11:22 -0500 Subject: DCSB: Chuck Wade; New Authentication Services--A pending train wreck? Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [The Harvard Club is now "business casual". No more jackets and ties, but see below for details. While it lasts, anyway. Since the dot-bomb, the suit-probability in the main dining room has been asymptotically approaching unity. :-). --RAH] The Digital Commerce Society of Boston Presents Chuck Wade New Authentication Services--A pending train wreck? Tuesday, December 4th, 2001 12 - 2 PM The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston One Federal Street, Boston, MA The IT industry's holy grail has always been "single sign-on," and now Microsoft is promising to deliver this long-sought treasure with its Passport offering. Meanwhile, AOL, Oracle and Sun (with its friends in the Liberty Alliance) are also claiming to have found solutions to the single sign-on problem. In the payments world, Visa is readying a new authentication service called 3-D Secure for over-the-Internet credit card transactions, while MasterCard prepares to introduce its SPA authentication technology and American Express is still promoting its Blue Card and associated wallet software. Interest in authentication services, including single sign-on, has reached a fever pitch since the tragic events of September 11th, although interest was building even before the twin towers collapsed. With all of these new authentication services coming to market, it might seem that the IT industry is about to finally get some much-needed relief from the suffering associated with weak, or non-existent, authentication. Unfortunately, what we may be about to witness instead is another industry train wreck as competing solutions collide in the midst of a skeptical market place. This talk will highlight some of the strengths and weaknesses of these emerging authentication services. It will also discuss their common failure to address the real requirements of users. Some thoughts will be offered on how the industry approach needs to change if viable authentication services are ever to be adopted in the real world. Chuck Wade consults on Internet payments and security. He was previously engaged as a Senior Researcher at CommerceNet, and as a Principal Consultant in the Information Security Group of BBN Technologies. At BBN, he led Electronic Commerce initiatives and client engagements, with most of his consulting work within the Financial Industry. As one of the original participants in the FSTC eCheck Project, Chuck has been involved with over-the-Internet electronic payments since the mid 1990's. He also contributed directly to the architecture, design, deployment and testing of various large, mission-critical networks, including the trading floor network for the New York and American Stock Exchanges. In a career spanning a quarter century, Chuck spent all of the '90s with BBN (now a part of Verizon) as a Consultant and Systems Architect. During most of the '80s, he worked at Motorola directing the Advanced Technology Group for their Codex division. He has also worked in the minicomputer industry and university research. He holds both Sc.B. and Sc.M. degrees from Brown University in Electrical Engineering. This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on Tuesday, December 4th, 2001, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is $37.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, A/V hardware if necessary, and the speakers' lunch. The Harvard Club has relaxed its dress code, which is now "business casual", meaning no sneakers or jeans. Fair warning: since we purchase these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your meal if the Club finds you in violation of what's left of its dress code. We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by Saturday, December 1st, or you won't be on the list for lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will be returned. Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $37.50. Please include your e-mail address so that we can send you a confirmation If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (we've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something out. Upcoming speakers for DCSB are: January James Turk Non-Bank Payment Systems February TBA As you can see, :-), we are actively searching for future speakers. If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, are a principal in digital commerce, and would like to make a presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Committee, care of Robert Hettinga, . For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send "info dcsb" in the body of a message to . If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in the body of a message to . We look forward to seeing you there! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0 iQEVAwUBO/Z+lcUCGwxmWcHhAQGU+ggAs4e7abFasaxckLi+Oo8nqPeb9noeuoFZ QAn6hDUJmqFgkkhcJ3i0z0+Aw6hIT3pQ3iL/AE3q2TGGOOu4q4Ca30Ghh9m5ScNx rRJTDa4UD2PZjWVcIWJ+RqCnSOKRsCR2epMzLjDJXCZ+NhmBsAJf2Wrec78nTQN7 lS3g5sUyE0PMUNTjMByeWvts3wClsQqnlXOaP8uGHdENKMoXioVZtdPbfcKWXPag K2BRJ8xkyMb1vr8XUYpa8mBZh+ItddAtGikB39vPbDFqouLFP6zU6Vk7dc8yhoCm j70jilWp7F4zT+n0EM0CTKXLrhekbZX0Vd7qzvzXoFEO90IIpZpFng== =hQe4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo at reservoir.com In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb-announce Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb-announce If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at reservoir.com --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 26 09:16:06 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:16:06 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <20011126102819.B11535@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <471A7F3E-E291-11D5-9F69-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 07:28 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Thanks, Tim, for posting an interesting essay. You say: Thanks for the thanks. It's just a facet of what I've been thinking about for a long time. I was bored so I just dashed off the piece, more to help crystallize thoughts than to lay out a convincing case. If others are partly convinced, so much the better. If nothing else, it's my stake in the ground that "reputation capital" is the _wrong_ focus. Since it's thrown around a lot here, someone ought to point out the many limitations of the concept. >> 2. When in fact different people have different assessments of some >> agent's reputation. Thus suggesting strongly that reputation is not >> something attached as simply as above. > > To expand on this: It seems that using "reputation capital" to > describe a multifaceted information space such as even the most > wretched of cypherpunks posters does not do that person justice. Even > if someone is generally correct and truth-telling, he may also be > immoral or a fan of invasive police measures or immature in debate or > prone to violations of netiquette -- any of which might lower his > reputation capital. > > Sure, one can say: let's just have a complicated reputation space > (think an array of arrays) for each one of these characteristics. To > use a silly example: > * truthtelling [0-255] > * maturity [0-255] > * morality [0-255] > * netiquette [0-255] > * spelling [0-255] > * etc. This is not really an "array of arrays," just a garden variety n-space. And _not_ a vector space, because vector addition does not work. More of a tensor, in that the axes are independent. (The canonical tensor being the stress-energy tensor for a solid material, for example. The stress in the X axis and the stress in the Y axis do NOT "vector sum" to some resultant stress.) Anyway, I digress. I agree that a person may have various of these components. If I am betting on whether Alice will have few spelling mistakes in a post, I would look at her "spelling [0-255]" measure. > But that quickly becomes burdensome to use as a shorthand. > Though the place we need shorthand is for ordinary human to human communication, and for this it is enough to just say "Alice is a poor speller" or "Declan writes good articles." For a machine, maintaining such data bases is trivial. Not that I think this is especially useful. Think of just one of these facets, one of the most important ones: credit worthiness. Essentially, the basis of a bet on whether Bob will repay a loan. > It seems to me that reputation capital is a term that has limited > value when applied to something as subjective as the areas above: > having an article published in the editorial pages of the Wall Street > Journal (or the Journal of Socialist Doctrine) may lower your > reputation capital among some people and raise it among others. This > is the nature of subjectivity. Which is why I balk at schemes to grade Cypherpunks posts on the basis of "reputation capital" (an idea which bubbles up every couple of years, though no one ever bothers to implement it). Each person has his or her own idea of who they want to read, embodied in a) who they read vs. who they skim vs. who they hit "Delete" on, and b) their kill files. And who they write replies to. > > Reputation capital is more valuable a term when describing traits that > are less subjective. When dealing with an online ecash bank, you may > want truthfulness and reliability and good customer service (for > example), which are less subjective than "interesting political > opinions." >> The direction I'm going is all about digital money. My claim is that a belief ontology (risk, bets, futures, insurance, moneychanging, re-insurance, discounts, etc.) solves many if not all of the "thorny" problems often cited with digital money. The underlying mathematics, important as it is, just becomes another part of the calculation of beliefs. It doesn't matter to me much that folks use the term "reputation capital" loosely to describe actual people...that's just wordage. More important is the application of probabalistic reasoning to digital economies. Maybe I'll have something to show along these lines some day. --Tim May From hakkin at sarin.com Mon Nov 26 09:44:14 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:44:14 -0800 Subject: Health bill endangers civil rights Message-ID: <3C027F6E.B63FEE18@sarin.com> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/11/25/MN232750.DTL Health bill endangers civil rights The administration wants all 50 states to adopt a law allowing public health authorities to take over hospitals, seize drug supplies, quarantine people exposed to infectious pathogens, draft doctors to treat them, force patients to be vaccinated, and order police to restrain residents from leaving contaminated areas. ... Civil rights protections, however, are exactly what opponents find lacking. The kind of public health emergency that would trigger extraordinary powers for health officers is defined so broadly that it could include AIDS, HIV infection or a severe flu epidemic, said Tanya Ehrmann, director of public policy at the activist group AIDS Action in Washington, D.C. Annas said that under the legislation, people could be detained without a court order and isolated in stadiums or clinics without an adequate process to challenge the decision. The proposed law would also shield health officers from liability, along with anyone working at their direction, for deaths or health damage suffered by quarantined bioterror victims, he said. Under the measure, "if you kill people or hurt them, that's tough," said Annas, one of 10 New England health law scholars urging Thompson to change the draft law. "The families can't sue, nobody can sue." From haak at utechverlag.de Mon Nov 26 01:20:10 2001 From: haak at utechverlag.de (UTECH GmbH&Co.KG) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:20:10 +0100 Subject: FYI: Partnerprogramm Message-ID: <126307516.20011126102010@utechverlag.de> In zweimonatiger Testphase mit über 50.000 Unique Clicks hat sich unser neues Partnerprogramm als sehr zuverlässig bewährt. Wir sprechen Sie direkt unter cypherpunks at toad.com an, da der Beta-Test beendet ist und Sie sich ab sofort wieder kostenlos und unverbindlich anmelden können. Der Vorteil: Wir beteiligen Sie ab dem ersten Klick mit einer erstaunlichen Provision. Plazieren Sie einfach Ihren Partnerlink wo immer Sie wollen (selbstverständlich auch in Newsletter, Linklisten, Emails) - und sichern Sie sich so ein beachtliches Nebeneinkommen. Es gibt definitiv keinen Hacken an der Sache! Im Gegenteil: Als Partner-Begrüßungsgeschenk erhalten Sie von uns kostenlos eine bekannte CD mit "allen Hacker-Tools für Ihre Sicherheit". (Name der CD wird hier nicht genannt, um SPAM-Vorwürfe zu verhindern) Alle Details zum Partnerprogramm finden Sie unter http://www.utechmedia.net/partner.htm Schöne Grüße aus dem Norden! UTECH Verlag, Oldenburg --- Sorry, but this mail is for german-speaking audience only. Just delete this mail if you received it accidentally - we won't contact you again. From haak at utechverlag.de Mon Nov 26 01:20:10 2001 From: haak at utechverlag.de (UTECH GmbH&Co.KG) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:20:10 +0100 Subject: FYI: Partnerprogramm Message-ID: <185307496.20011126102010@utechverlag.de> In zweimonatiger Testphase mit über 50.000 Unique Clicks hat sich unser neues Partnerprogramm als sehr zuverlässig bewährt. Wir sprechen Sie direkt unter cypherpunks at Algebra.COM an, da der Beta-Test beendet ist und Sie sich ab sofort wieder kostenlos und unverbindlich anmelden können. Der Vorteil: Wir beteiligen Sie ab dem ersten Klick mit einer erstaunlichen Provision. Plazieren Sie einfach Ihren Partnerlink wo immer Sie wollen (selbstverständlich auch in Newsletter, Linklisten, Emails) - und sichern Sie sich so ein beachtliches Nebeneinkommen. Es gibt definitiv keinen Hacken an der Sache! Im Gegenteil: Als Partner-Begrüßungsgeschenk erhalten Sie von uns kostenlos eine bekannte CD mit "allen Hacker-Tools für Ihre Sicherheit". (Name der CD wird hier nicht genannt, um SPAM-Vorwürfe zu verhindern) Alle Details zum Partnerprogramm finden Sie unter http://www.utechmedia.net/partner.htm Schöne Grüße aus dem Norden! UTECH Verlag, Oldenburg --- Sorry, but this mail is for german-speaking audience only. Just delete this mail if you received it accidentally - we won't contact you again. From declan at well.com Mon Nov 26 07:24:38 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:24:38 -0500 Subject: SBC says appointing Gore-for-pres chief as president "signals the importance of governmental matters to our company's ability to grow revenues" Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126102323.02841160@mail.well.com> 11/19. SBC named William Daley its new President. Daley will report directly to SBC's Chairman and CEO Edward Whitacre. SBC is the incumbent local exchange carrier in California, Nevada, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, and Indiana. SBC also holds a majority equity interest in Cingular Wireless. Daley was former President Bill Clinton's Secretary of Commerce from January 1997 to June 2000. He resigned in June 2000 to become Chairman of former Vice President Al Gore's presidential campaign. Whitacre stated in a release that "His appointment as president of SBC signals the importance of governmental matters to our company's ability to grow revenues ..." release: http://www.sbc.com/News_Center/1,3950,31,00.html?query=20011119-1 From declan at well.com Mon Nov 26 07:28:19 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:28:19 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 03:05:18PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011126102819.B11535@cluebot.com> Thanks, Tim, for posting an interesting essay. You say: > 2. When in fact different people have different assessments of some > agent's reputation. Thus suggesting strongly that reputation is not > something attached as simply as above. To expand on this: It seems that using "reputation capital" to describe a multifaceted information space such as even the most wretched of cypherpunks posters does not do that person justice. Even if someone is generally correct and truth-telling, he may also be immoral or a fan of invasive police measures or immature in debate or prone to violations of netiquette -- any of which might lower his reputation capital. Sure, one can say: let's just have a complicated reputation space (think an array of arrays) for each one of these characteristics. To use a silly example: * truthtelling [0-255] * maturity [0-255] * morality [0-255] * netiquette [0-255] * spelling [0-255] * etc. But that quickly becomes burdensome to use as a shorthand. It seems to me that reputation capital is a term that has limited value when applied to something as subjective as the areas above: having an article published in the editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal (or the Journal of Socialist Doctrine) may lower your reputation capital among some people and raise it among others. This is the nature of subjectivity. Reputation capital is more valuable a term when describing traits that are less subjective. When dealing with an online ecash bank, you may want truthfulness and reliability and good customer service (for example), which are less subjective than "interesting political opinions." -Declan On Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 03:05:18PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > For many years some of us have argued strongly for "reputation" as a > core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the > phrase "reputation capital." > > Reputation is an easily understandable concept which explains a lot > about how imperfect protocols in the real world nevertheless "work." I > won't go into what reputation is, even as defined by folks like us. > > But there are many aspects of reputation which lead to problems: > > 1. The assumption that an agent or actor possesses a "reputation." A > kind of scalar number attached to a person, a bank, an institution, or > even a nym. > > 2. When in fact different people have different assessments of some > agent's reputation. Thus suggesting strongly that reputation is not > something attached as simply as above. > > 3. All of the nonsense about how "Alice's reputation has been harmed," > deriving from the faulty notion of this scalar property attached to > Alice. > > Aren't we stuck with reputation? > > No, a broader ontology of objects and beliefs about them is a better way > to go. > > The "reputation of the dollar" is related to my belief, and the belief > of billions of others around the planet, that for whatever reason a > piece of paper with the right markings on it will in fact be accepted by > billions of others, by millions of small banks and moneychangers, and > even by the U.S. Government. And the related belief that loans, IOUs, > promissory notes, bonds, and numerous other instruments denominated in > these "dollars" will very likely be accepted or exchanged, blah blah, by > millions or billions of other actors. Such is not the case with Monopoly > money or even with E-gold. > > Thus, what is the "reputation of the dollar"? Is it because of foolproof > anti-forgery measures? Is it because of the laws of the U.S.? Etc.? > > No, it is a kind of collective hallucination. > > Before James Donald freaks out and cites Objectivist arguments that Some > Things Are Real, etc., let me point out that "collective hallucination" > is mostly a cute phrase. In actuality, our perception of reality is more > than just an opium dream. Empiricism, falsifiability, Popper, all that > good stuff. But our monetary system is vastly less provably real than > the world of atoms and stars is. Because money is fundamentally about > bets on the future: will something be exchanged for something else, will > governments support what they print, what will the dollar be worth in 5 > years, etc. > > All crypto is economics. All money is based on belief. All a matter of > "betting," of risk/benefit analysis. Related concepts, of course. > > Even slightly flawed protocols still "work," given the right embeddings > in other systems. (For example, a common flaw cited with remailers is > that if there is not enough cover traffic, traceability still exists. > But exactly the same flaw exists with money: try getting untraceability > with coins if only a few coins exist. Ditto for bearer bonds. Ditto for > lots of things where the "protocol fails for small N" but works > reasonably well--in the "betting" sense--when a lot of actors are > trading a lot of coins and currency. > > The value of a monetary token is NOT something that is determined by > precise mathematical protocols. It's a value based on _belief_ or > _expectation_ about the behaviors of other actors, and about the future. > Currency suspected of being counterfeit may sell for 10 cents on the > dollar, to a sophisticated buyer, while currency suspected of being > legit may or may not sell for at or near face value. (Even perfectly > legit currency would sell at a discount in large quanties, probably, > because a buyer would be a money launderer. Hence the discount for risk. > That is, a market decision based on the obvious tradeoffs.) > > Back to reputations. > > Seen as part of a larger ecology of a "market construction of reality," > there are no fixed or absolute values, no fixed or absolute truths. Some > assertions are "many nines" likely to be true, and some are even > constructed to be true (*) > > (* As in "2 + 2 = 4," though the streetwise person who says "What's the > trick?" is realizing that even "known to be true" assertions may not be > true, as in base 3. Magicians and con men have known this for a long > time.) > > Thus, there is no fixed "reputation" of either a person, an idea, or a > unit of value. Everything is a matter of belief, of expectation... > > Instead of an ontology of objects and their attached methods and > property lists, including "reputations" and "monetary values," we should > be thinking in terms of these objects as just other actors, with each > actor maintaining his own internal model of "possible worlds" (how he > thinks the other actors will behave, what he thinks may be future > outcomes, what his own goals and expectations are). Seen this way, there > is no "reputation" or "value" that is universal. Everything is relative. > Everything is seen through the light of internal states/possible worlds. > > This is the market view of reality. There is no "Reality." Just > ensembles of actors, various facets, incomplete knowledge...all > lubricated by betting. Every street kid knows this. > > Digital money is just one facet of this worldview. > > --Tim May > "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a > monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also > into you." -- Nietzsche From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 26 07:29:21 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:29:21 -0500 Subject: DCSB: Chuck Wade; New Authentication Services--A pending train wreck? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 29 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frissell at panix.com Mon Nov 26 07:39:51 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:39:51 -0500 Subject: New Federal Patriot Act Turns Retailers into Spies Message-ID: <3C026247.D62116F7@panix.com> ************ The Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/ New Federal Patriot Act Turns Retailers into Spies against Customers By Scott Bernard Nelson, The Boston Globe Nov 20, 2001 2:18 AM Nov. 18 --Ordinary businesses, from bicycle shops to bookstores to bowling alleys, are being pressed into service on the home front in the war on terrorism. ************ One problem with these horror stories -- this has been the law for circa 20 years. See IRS Form 8300: http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8300.pdf I forget when these rules were enacted but I do remember writing about them in the middle 1980s. DCF From Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com Mon Nov 26 01:42:02 2001 From: Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com (Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:42:02 +0100 Subject: remove Message-ID: From piolenc at mozcom.com Sun Nov 25 18:51:15 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:51:15 +0800 Subject: HDCP break and DMCA References: Message-ID: <3C01AE23.DF75BF29@mozcom.com> Tim May wrote: > Answer: they do! Go to any large copying center near a university and > look for "professor packs" or "HistCon 101 Course Materials" consisting > of copied material out of various textbooks, hard and soft. The deal is > that the student takes the professor pack over to a copy machine and > runs off a copy of each of the, for example, 400 pages. The student pays > $20 or so and saves himself having to buy 10 books to read one or two > chapters or sections out of each. The students are happy, the copy shop > is happy, the professor is happy, and only the publishers and authors > are unhappy. > > This was very common here in Santa Cruz, as recently as several years > ago when I was doing a lot of copying of my own papers. > > There were signs up about not violating copyright law, but these > professor packs were in clear violation. Really? Sounds to me like they fall under "Fair Use." That provision specifically exempts copying for research or education. Marc de Piolenc From declan at well.com Mon Nov 26 08:22:36 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:22:36 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011126081551.007b7b40@pop.sprynet.com> References: <20011126102819.B11535@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126112052.02866990@mail.well.com> At 08:15 AM 11/26/2001 -0800, David Honig wrote, quoting me: > >Reputation capital is more valuable a term when describing traits that > >are less subjective. When dealing with an online ecash bank, you may > >want truthfulness and reliability and good customer service (for > >example), which are less subjective than "interesting political > >opinions." > >But what counts as "good customer service" varies by culture >and person, much like whether WSJ publication helps or hurts. True, in part, but it's far less subjective. We can measure GCS by time-to-answer-phone, number-of-busy-signals, etc. Other metrics, like is-your-bank-account-available-or-not, are even less subjective. -Declan From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 26 08:35:43 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:35:43 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | McAfee Will Ignore FBI Spyware Message-ID: A few years ago I coined the term 'espionage-enabled' to describe the 'International' version of Lotus Notes, with it's blabbing 88 of 128 bits of encryption keys wrapped with an NSA supplied public key. I guess it's time to label another product. Peter Trei > ---------- > From: Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] > Reply To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:52 PM > To: hell at einstein.ssz.com; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: Slashdot | McAfee Will Ignore FBI Spyware > > http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/24/2324241.shtml > -- > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. > > Bumper Sticker > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 26 08:35:51 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:35:51 -0500 Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto Message-ID: Curious. 4-5 years ago Denning and another associate (I forget who, it's in the archives :-) tried to market an authentication scheme which purported to authenticate the location of a remote user using GPS. The idea was that the user's machine would pick up the aggregate analog GPS signal available at it's location (either the regular, non-classified version or the high-precision classified signals), and transmit it to the server, which would use it to work out the location of the user - a user who was located at 'Pentagon, third ring, fourth floor, Army segment' would be accorded different privilieges than one whose location decoded as 'Presidential Palace, Baghdad'. I and several other list subscribers pointed out numerous issues. Among them were: 1. GPS signals don't work well in buildings of substantial construction, and the chance of them working at all in a TEMPEST shielded building are about zip. 2. There are numerous DOS attacks available - the GPS signals are easily jammed. One amusing approach would be to use GPS test equipment to generate signals appropriate for a different location (eg, Pyongyang) and beam them at the site to be DOS'd. 4. Conversely, an attacker could use the same test equipment to make it look like he's in the Pentagon, when he's actually in Kandahar. 5. GPS is based on the relative time delays of signals from different satellites. Since network lag of hundreds of milliseconds must be accepted, anyone who can see the same set of satellites as the location to be spoofed can separate the signals from the different satellites, modify the lags appropriately, and remix to generate a spoofed analog signal. -------- I sent these concerns to Denning, who replied that she would address them only under NDA, which I declined to enter. This sounds an awful lot like old wine in new bottles. Many of the same concerns arise. Peter Trei Disclaimer: The above represents only my personal opinions. > ---------- > From: John Young[SMTP:jya at pipeline.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 2:06 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto > > Time Magazine, November 26, 2001: > > Denning's pioneering a new field she calls geo-encryption. > Working with industry, Denning has developed a way to keep > information undecipherable until it reaches its location, as > determined by GPS satellites. Move studios, for example, > have been afraid to release films digitally for the same reasons > record companies hate Napster: once loose on the Internet, > there's little to stop someone from posting the latest blockbuster > DVD on the Web for all to see and download. With Denning's > system, however, only subscribers in specified locations -- > such as movie theaters -- would be able to unscramble the > data. The technology works as well for national security > as it does for Harry Potter. Coded messages that the State > Department sends to its embassies, for example, could only > be deciphered in the embassy buildings themselves, greatly > reducing the risk of interception. > > For now, Denning says, terrorists "may want to bring down > the power grid or the finance system, but it's still easier to > blow up a building." If she's right, it's due in large part to her. From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Mon Nov 26 09:47:06 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:47:06 -0600 Subject: SBC says appointing Gore-for-pres chief as president "signals the importance of governmental matters to our company's ability to grow revenues" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126102323.02841160@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <00db01c176a2$5f9f75f0$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Oh great.. I wonder if this will improve relations or just make things worse for those of us trying to compete with SBC on DSL? Probably the latter... Jon Beets Pacer Communications ----- Original Message ----- From: "Declan McCullagh" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 9:24 AM Subject: SBC says appointing Gore-for-pres chief as president "signals the importance of governmental matters to our company's ability to grow revenues" > 11/19. SBC named William > Daley its new President. Daley will report directly to SBC's > Chairman and CEO Edward Whitacre. > > SBC is the incumbent local exchange carrier in California, > Nevada, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois, > Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, and Indiana. SBC also holds a > majority equity interest in Cingular Wireless. > > Daley was former President Bill Clinton's Secretary of > Commerce from January 1997 to June 2000. He resigned in June 2000 to become > Chairman of former Vice President Al Gore's > presidential campaign. Whitacre stated in a release that "His appointment > as president of SBC signals the > importance of governmental matters to our company's ability to > grow revenues ..." > > release: > http://www.sbc.com/News_Center/1,3950,31,00.html?query=20011119-1 From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 26 08:50:35 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:50:35 -0500 Subject: Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2... Message-ID: Rohit (whom I know slightly) is too much a gentleman to suggest that he may be being hit due to racial profiling. Peter Trei > ---------- > From: R. A. Hettinga[SMTP:rah at shipwright.com] > Reply To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 9:38 AM > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; cryptography at wasabisystems.com; > dcsb at ai.mit.edu > Subject: Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2... > > > --- begin forwarded text > > > Status: U > Delivered-To: fork at xent.com > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:44:04 -0800 > To: FoRK at xent.com > From: Rohit Khare > Subject: Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2... > Sender: fork-admin at xent.com > List-Id: Friends of Rohit Khare > > Executive Summary: I am near my limit of anger with the "random", > "neutral" FAA passenger profiling algorithm. I have every reason to > believe some programmer has coded some strictures into it which would > truly offend American civil society if translated from mathematics > back into the ugly politics from whence it came. > > Soon after my last installment, I had to turn back around and fly out > of Denver. They made me X-ray my *shoes*... This time, the problem > was *too much* time on their hands. The second story is how I missed > the last flight back home on Thanksgiving eve because the security > supervisor wouldn't show up to process me at the gate in time. That > snowballed into a series of Catch-22 situations trying to find a lost > pair of glasses along the way. > > First, Denver. A tip on avoiding the Disneyland-like lines at the two > main X-ray posts -- even though, strictly speaking, that's an insult > to Disneyland, since even they've instituted a take-a-number pass > system for the most popular rides. > > Rather than take the train to one of the outlying concourses, ignore > the main signage and *walk* to Terminal A over a bridge on the > ticketing level. That's the X-ray post to Continental, British, etc. > Much less popular, even though many a savvy traveler knew that was > the way around United's silly carryon sizer templates (Contintental's > machines don't use them). Then take the train to wherever you really > need to get to. > > A co-worker and I arrived at DIA together, and I was able to purchase > a new ticket, and even with the foolishness of fellow business > travelers in stocking-feet waiting for their shoes back, I caught up > with him in the same train car... he spent the entire time in United > lines. > > Now, for the real outrage. > > Today, I was warned about massive Thanksgiving delays at Sea-Tac, so > I cut short a beer with a buddy in Bellevue to race back two and a > half hours in advance. I returned the car, picked up a boarding pass > from a pliant robot kiosk, and got through security in a wink. Two > hours in advance... no problem, right? > > Well, I was a selectee, presumably since it was a one-way ticket. So > I sat through yet another embarassing tearing-apart of my bags, and > this time they found a pocket screwdriver. A promotional pen-style > screwdriver that I've had for ten years (it's a NeXT repair shop :-) > > 1. They think you are not allowed to board with a three-inch, > 1/8-inch wide screwdriver. > > 2. You are not allowed to ask the aircrew to hold it for you on the > flight. > > 3. You are not allowed to leave the selectee table until a "GSC" > supervisor comes to look it over. > > At this point, there's twenty minutes left.... tick-tock... now, the > flight is almost completely boarded. You're still waiting. And now > you suddenly realize you've lost your $400 prescription sunglasses. > > 4. You keep all your metal -- everything -- in your jacket at all > times, so that you can x-ray a jacket rather than begin to empty out > pockets. Your sunglasses have fallen out at some checkpoint. > > At this point, you start tracing back your steps. It's 7 minutes or > so to push-back. > > 5. If you leave the selectee table, you will have to be searched all > over again when you return to the gate > > 6. They do not have walkie-talkies to ask security if your glasses > were stuck in the X-ray tunnel > > 7. See #3: You are not allowed to leave at all until the mythical GSC > arrives. > > Finally, a GSC arrives. Two minutes or so to departure, you haven't > been given any chance to run down and solve the mystery. > > 8. The screwdriver must be confiscated or bags must be checked. > > 9. Just because you have been flying with it all week means nothing. > "We're supposed to randomly change what the FAA is looking for every > day". Parse that, if you dare! > > 10. Any carry-on bag may be gate-checked *except* those containing > "forbidden carry-on items". Catch-22 #1. > > So now you're finally free to run back to the X-ray post and miss your > flight. > > 11. With about fifteen uniformed personnel of various stripes > (National Guard, Argenbright, Alaska, and United), none of the first > half-dozen people you ask claims to know about lost articles. > > 12. Before you can find a supervisor, the GSC has wandered back to > warn them you are carrying a screwdriver. > > 13. So at this point, instead of any sympathy for a harried traveler > asking for a supervisor, it's time for a lecture about "having > committed two federal crimes, bringing a forbidden item into a > screening area, lying about it to a ticket agent, two fines at > $11,000 each" -- which they take the pompous time to warn you adds up > to "a potential total fine of $22,000" since you're not paying enough > attention to the supercillious bastard who won't admit to knowing who > to ask about lost articles. > > Note that A) you are not allowed to leave your bags unaccompanied; > and B) the only way for a solo traveler to speak to a security > supervisor is to enter the screening area. Catch-22 #2. > > 14. Sufficiently alarmed, I am ordered to walk around, get back in > line, and wait to be escorted back to the *front* of the metal > detector to be handed my bags back. > > At this point, my interest is in going back to the Rental car desk > and asking if I left the glasses there. At no point has anyone > volunteered a back-up flight alternative for how I might every make > it back to Northern California tonight. > > Ultimately, when rebooking my ticket for a later flight to SFO, I > mention that I missed my flight because as a selectee, the personnel > needed to inspect me were not available in time. I get snapped at for > suggesting I was at all inconvenienced. And I'm marked as a selectee > again. > > And when I finally wade through security for the fourth time, the > same super is there to claim that the glasses must have been swept up > to Port of Seattle Lost and Found. But that he doesn't know what > their phone number is. > > 15. Seattle is the only airport in the world without white courtesy > telephones :-) > > But while looking for those phones, the wandering GSC comes back > around and huddles with the supervisor, staring at me. She's > obviously asking him how I could have come back in without having > checked my bag - and my dreaded screwdriver. Gingerly, they begin to > follow me back out of the screening area. I decide to placate their > fears that I got back through their infallible dragnet with > contraband. > > "Oh, I mailed it to myself, first-class air-mail!" > > ... > > Clever solutions aside, the outcome of this story is that a very > harried, very frequent traveling US citizen was at no point treated > like an innocent person anxious to solve a problem. Instead, every > contact is an opportunity to be treated like a suspect criminal. In > three hours, I was patted down four times, had my bags X-rayed twice, > hand-searched twice more, and went through metal detectors six times. > > The irony of it all is that the selectee program was created by the > FAA for those passengers who choose NOT to provide photo > identification as a matter of right. > > CAPPS, the Computer-Assisted Passenger Profiling System, deserves to > be sued out of existence. I'm almost ready to join the ACLU. These > so-called "confidential" criteria are not convincingly as neutral as > the cheery pink "You have been randomly selected"! flyers in your > ticket indicate. And the time-filling additional random searches by > the gate security supervisor were even more visibly biased towards > brown young men. Even one Army soldier on Thanksgiving leave. > > I am sick of being treated as guilty until proven innocent! > > Not least by such a patently fallible and placebo-driven security > system... The Feds will be *such* an improvement. -- not! > > Yours, > Rohit > > > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork > > --- end forwarded text > > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' > From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 26 08:54:29 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:54:29 -0500 Subject: Thoughts in proxy services. Message-ID: [Ryan replied on the list to a private email I sent him. I'm sending the original letter to provide context for his reply.] Peter Trei > ---------- > From: Trei, Peter > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:15 AM > To: 'Ryan Lackey' > Subject: RE: "quitting havenco", not quite! > > > > ---------- > From: Ryan Lackey[SMTP:ryan at havenco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:48 PM > To: Trei, Peter > Cc: 'cypherpunks at lne.com' > Subject: Re: "quitting havenco", not quite! > > > Ryan and the other HavenCo folks deserve *massive* kudos for this. > > (now, when is the HavenCo remailer going online? :-) > > The remailer has been up since 16 September 2001, and was announced to > this list among others. http://remailer.havenco.com/ > > Oops! (more kudos to you!) > > Followed by: (I have them for myself now, not commercial-grade yet) > * Anonymizing proxy on Sealand, cover general traffic as well as > havenco-destination traffic. Free and no ads to havenco-destination > sites; free and ads and rate-limiting to elsewhere, or subscription. > > Now that Safeweb is down, this would be really nice. A suggestion: > > Protecting traffic between the end-user and the proxy is as and > sometimes more important to the user as protecting the target > user from the target web site. > > Safeweb did this pretty well, using SSL between the user and > safeweb, and rewriting the URLs as encrypted strings. (There was > a javascript frame on the end users browser, but I'm sure you > know all that). Protecting the target URLs from observation is > almost as important as protecting the content. > > Thus, once Safeweb was going, an observer on the firewall > could find nothing except the volume of traffic between the > user and safeweb. > > Of course, safeweb went tits-up, so their economic model (they > were ad-supported) is questionable. > > There are a couple other systems out there that are similar; > www.the-cloak.com for one. > > I've a small list of links on this, if it would be helpful. For > example: http://www.jmarshall.com/tools/cgiproxy/ > > Peter From mbcpro at hanmir.com Sun Nov 25 19:26:09 2001 From: mbcpro at hanmir.com (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?bG1iYw==?=) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:26:09 +0900 Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?TUJDIL7GxKu1pbnMv6G8rSC5q7fhv7XIrSBDRLimILnoxvfHz7DtIMDWvcC0z7TZ?= Message-ID: <200111260318.fAQ3Ifbn017793@bomul2.kornet.net> MBC 무빙 잉글리쉬 안녕하세요? MBC무비잉글리쉬입니다. MBC무비잉글리쉬는 세계적인 기업 월트 디즈니사와 제휴로멀티미디어 통합기술을 이용한 최첨단디지털 교재로 데이터압축방식인 M-PEG를 구현하여 만들었습니다. 여기에는 캡션 기능이 첨가되어(영문자막, 한글자막, 무자막)선택과 DICTAION 기능이 첨가 되어 즉석에서 듣기능력 평가를할 수 있도록 기획되었습니다. MBC 아카데미 무비잉글리쉬는 올바른 영어교육의 방향 제시를통하여 학회나 학교, SK나 한국통신등에서 효율적인 학습체계로손쉽고 재미있게 실질적인 영어실력을 키울 수 있으므로, 전국의많은 기업에서 활용을 하고 있습니다. 현재 고개님들의 학습에 도움이 되고자, 무료 샘플 CD를 배포하고 있아오니 관심 있으신 분은 아래의 배너를 클릭하여 주시기 바랍니다. 감사합니다. 본 메일이 불필요하시다면 간단히 제목을 "수신거부"로 하여 webmaster at imovieenglish.com로 수신거부메일을 보내주십시요. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6049 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Nov 26 10:31:08 2001 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:31:08 -0600 Subject: HDCP break and DMCA References: <3C023C52.2ADD7495@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3C028A61.D0D511BF@cybershamanix.com> Kinko's got sued over selling the "student packets", there was a big flap over it a few years ago in academia, but as I recall the end result was that professors are more careful to have written permission from the publishers in hand, and the packets are still being sold. Most publishers are cooperating -- it's simply that the material is in the library, the portions of the books used is not large enough that students would buy them anyway -- as opposed to actual "textbooks" that they do purchase, so it seems a reasonable "fair use" compromise. In most of these cases the publishers realizer that they aren't going to sell more books by refusing, the authors realize that they'll get more exposure, more recognition, and the students don't have to spend hours in the library waiting for someone else to finish copying the materials. But as I said, most professors are being much more careful about getting permission beforehand and most copy places are being more careful about what they sell. At the biomedical library I worked at, the copiers only worked if you had a special card, and only students and faculty had the cards, since copying the medical texts and selling them to law firms and clinics was/is a lucrative business and was a principal income for the library. Don't know how the DMCA has affected them. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 26 04:57:54 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:57:54 +0000 Subject: HDCP break and DMCA References: Message-ID: <3C023C52.2ADD7495@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Tim May wrote: > > On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 06:51 PM, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > > Tim May wrote: > >> > >> There were signs up about not violating copyright law, but these > >> professor packs were in clear violation. > > > > Really? Sounds to me like they fall under "Fair Use." That provision > > specifically exempts copying for research or education. > > I strongly doubt this. "Fair use" is not about setting up alternate > publishing schemes, but is about quoting relevant sections, collecting > material for research purposes, etc. > > If it were as broad as you claim, why would _any_ school buy textbooks > for its students when it could make a photocopy for a fraction of the > cost? Schools could simply digitize textbooks once and then distribute > them on CD-ROM. > > I'm not a copyright expert, but I strongly doubt what you say above. AFAIK the US case law is the "Texaco principle" (maybe that is what a previous poster meant...) which allows you to make copies for personal educational or research purposes, but not as part of a profession or business. IIRC scientists at Texaco made copies of a chemistry journal and the company lost a case when the publishers sued them. I think it is the case that the student is allowed, under "fair use" to make one copy of a small part of a journal for their own education and research. It is possible that the teacher is allowed to make copies & give them to the students (though not to sell them). But it is almost certainly not allowed for a company to make such a packet as part of its business. (The law seems to imply that education is not a business or profession, which I have no problem with, though I guess many cypherpunks might). As ever, AINAL & if I was I wouldn't be an American one. (Though I was working for Texaco at the time of the court case & I now work in a (British) university where we have to deal with similar copyright law as it exists here) Ken Brown From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 26 13:12:53 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:12:53 -0800 Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions Message-ID: <200111262116.fAQLG6926325@slack.lne.com> Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing. I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.) The mathematical side of most encryption is vastly stronger than the "crypto hygiene" side. There's a reason "code rooms" and "crypto shacks" on military ships and bases have lots of hoops to jump through, with locked boxes, double-keyed switches, controlled access, etc. Most users of PGP take no steps to secure key materials. (I plead guilty, too.) Most of us are used to immediate access, and we want crypto integrated with our mail. The notion of going to a locked safe, taking out the laptop or removable hard drive, ensuring an "air gap" between the decoding system and the Net, and checking for keyloggers and hostile code, and so on, is foreign to most of us. The "dongle" idea (e.g., Dallas Semiconductor buttons, etc.) has been around for a long time. Here's a new twist: the Apple iPod music player. I just got one. A 4.6 GB hard disk (Toshiba 1.8"). Hooks up via Firewire/IEEE 1394, with the link recharging the battery and auto-linking. The disk can also be mounted as a standard Firewire disk. Meaning, it could be used to store key material and even be used for PGP scratch operations. The increased security comes from its small size (easy to lock up) and because I usually have it with me when I am away from home. This makes "sneak and peek" searches and plants of malicious code less useful. Not a complete solution. Crypto hygiene and all. Here's the article: > Path: sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!sjcppf01!usenetserver.com!hub1.nntpserver.com!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail > From: Rastus P. Riley > Newsgroups: misc.survivalism > Subject: Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:37:27 -0800 > Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com > Message-ID: <1m950usq1saskrs1g0ajmdi5h3e49fcd8b at 4ax.com> > > On 25 Nov 2001 21:48:28 GMT, phatmike at isomorphic.net (phatmike) wrote: > > >> According to the Washington Post, "At least one antivirus software company, > >> McAfee Corp., contacted the FBI on Wednesday to ensure its software wouldn't > >> inadvertently detect the bureau's snooping software and alert a criminal > >> suspect." > >> > >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1436-2001Nov22.html > > 1. Use a secure type of OS with login screen for every session > a. Log out after every use > b. If house invaded, Feds need to have initial login > password to insert trojan. > > 2. Use In/Out firewall > a. Zone Alarm Pro > b. Monitors in/out traffic > 1. If trojan tries to send data, then firewall will > highlight it. > > 3. Always check for small programs by last accessed date. > a. Uncheck hidden files > b. Look for files that increase in size by testing with 300 > random keystrokes. > > 4. Use Proxies, don't run attatchments, don't use > Outbreak Express. > > Hope this helps, > > -Rastus From mdpopescu at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 03:36:03 2001 From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:36:03 +0200 Subject: CP archive problem? References: Message-ID: <011901c1766e$87a433d0$5300a8c0@marcel> > > I've been trying to access http://www.inet-one.com for two days and have > > getting DNS errors. Anyone else on @home with the same trouble? Might be > > a good time to switch to alternate root servers. Pinging it from Romania gets this: --- Pinging kuala-lumpur.inet-one.com [202.9.98.124] with 32 bytes of data: Reply from 202.9.98.124: bytes=32 time=631ms TTL=221 --- I can open the main page. (I haven't tried the archives though.) Mark From wolf at priori.net Mon Nov 26 13:38:04 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:38:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions In-Reply-To: <200111262116.fAQLG6926325@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS > snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing. According to a rebutal posted to Declan's list, McAfee.com (not the same as McAfee) is claiming that neither it nor Network Associates is assisting the FBI. Regardless, the tips Tim mentions are certainly ones to practice. (Just because an anti-virus company isn't cooperating with the FBI on this doesn't mean its software will detect Magic Lantern. McAfee's position on this should be irrelevant.) -MW- From sunder at sunder.net Mon Nov 26 10:45:27 2001 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:45:27 -0500 (est) Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto In-Reply-To: <3BFCDBDD.13373.27A012@localhost> Message-ID: Um, rethorical question, but from my very limited understanding of GPS, all the satelites do is send a series of time codes. So if you wanted to you could build several transmitters that sent out stuff on the same frequenies. Since you need to be outside to be able to use GPS, or at least "see sky", that would imply that these signals are weak. So building something to spoof GPS should be relatively easy. Seems to me that one could also easily build a system to "brute force" through all possible positions on GPS. Again, I emphasize "very limited understanding of GPS" :) ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Roy M. Silvernail wrote: > On 22 Nov 2001, at 11:06, John Young wrote: > > > Time Magazine, November 26, 2001: > > > > Denning's pioneering a new field she calls geo-encryption. > > Working with industry, Denning has developed a way to keep > > information undecipherable until it reaches its location, as > > determined by GPS satellites. > > Using a GPS coordinate set as keying material? Hope it's just > additional keying material. Knowing the intended destination of > something like a movie in transit to a theater seems pretty easy, > and the set of GPS coordinates encompassing your average > multiplex would seem to be pretty small compared to the usual > keyspaces discussed here. > -- > Roy M. Silvernail [ ] roy at scytale.com > DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division > PGP Key 0x1AF39331 : 71D5 2EA2 4C27 D569 D96B BD40 D926 C05E > Key available from pubkey at scytale.com > I charge to process unsolicited commercial email From 1.10198689.-18 at multexinvestornetwork.com Mon Nov 26 10:48:23 2001 From: 1.10198689.-18 at multexinvestornetwork.com (Multex Investor) Date: 26 Nov 2001 13:48:23 -0500 Subject: Compelling small cap investment opportunity Message-ID: <0de112348181ab1MINLIST4@multexinvestornetwork.com> ***************************************************************** As a registered Multex Investor member, we will occasionally contact you with special opportunities provided by our partners. To unsubscribe to this or any other exclusive offers, please see the bottom of this message. ***************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------- If you'd like to learn more about Multex Investor, please visit: http://www.multexinvestor.com/welcome.asp. If you can't remember your Multex Investor password and/or your user name, click here: http://www.multexinvestor.com/lostinfo.asp. If you want to update your email address, please click on the URL: http://www.multexinvestor.com/edituinfo.asp. To remove yourself from the mailing list for Special Promotions, please REPLY to THIS email message with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. You may also unsubscribe on the account update page at: http://www.multexinvestor.com/edituinfo.asp. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5158 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jtl-dated-1007245865.7255ac at molehill.org Mon Nov 26 14:31:04 2001 From: jtl-dated-1007245865.7255ac at molehill.org (Todd Larason) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:31:04 -0800 Subject: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier In-Reply-To: <008601c1763f$804d2080$1801fea9@LUCKYVAIO>; from shamrock@cypherpunks.to on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 09:59:24PM -0800 References: <008601c1763f$804d2080$1801fea9@LUCKYVAIO> Message-ID: <20011126143104.A23041@molehill.org> On 25 November 01, Lucky Green wrote: > The page at Amazon. COM claims that the book in question will ship in > December of this year. I seem to recall having read announcements in > years past that the book would ship in the respective years. Methinks > that a mere claim of a future ship date in 2001 may be considered > insufficient proof that the condition of the wager has been met by at > least one of the parties to the wager. I've had it on order from Amazon since December 1998. At the time, Amazon listed it as shipping in February 1999. Every few months since then, they've moved the date ahead a few months. I won't believe it till I have a copy in my hands. -- Todd Larason | The gene pool has no lifeguard. 3500238865/p | UIN: 6019543 | AIM: FxyT1ts | -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 234 bytes Desc: not available URL: From decoy at iki.fi Mon Nov 26 04:34:01 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:34:01 +0200 (EET) Subject: HDCP break and DMCA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: >> Really? Sounds to me like they fall under "Fair Use." That provision >> specifically exempts copying for research or education. > >I strongly doubt this. "Fair use" is not about setting up alternate >publishing schemes, but is about quoting relevant sections, collecting >material for research purposes, etc. Aye. Quite a number of people seem to have this strange intuition that "research and education" are somehow different from "commercial" use, making them "fairer". It's naturally true that the preconditions of the fair use exception are more often fulfilled in the context of research, but that's about it. Were that not the case, people who make textbooks would not be very well off. I'd guess it's basically the same thing that makes people advocate public schooling -- not too long ago I too thought education was a "basic need" which needed to be socialized. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 From sunder at sunder.net Mon Nov 26 11:49:30 2001 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:49:30 -0500 (est) Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions In-Reply-To: <200111262116.fAQLG6926325@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: Great and wonderful except: 1. If such spyware has already been installed on your system you can't trust your os therefore: a. It may use your OS to hide the key capture log, so you won't be able to just watch files. Think of a kernel patch that removes all references to a specific file, not just sets it to be hidden. b. It may use your OS to hide that the OS was altered if you decide to use a debugger by patching the debugger also, and when say "Finder" looks at the System file, it's really looking at the inactive original one, rather than the one that was patched. (or it could be an extension that hides itself and the capture file from the OS, etc.) 2. Any hard drive you can access so can they. "They" can patch your disk: a. I'm not sure about newer MacOS's, but I remember that older MacOS's, those on 68k boxes stored driver code for the disk on one of the blocks on the drive, so even if your OS wasn't booted with the spyware, simply mounting that drive would load the driver, and anything that goes with it. I had the experience of having such a driver getting corrupted back when I used a Mac. I recall I had to use special software to mount the disk without the old driver - actualy to just zap the old driver off the disk and replace it. b. If the malware is on your hard drive, it can propagate like a virus to your iPod. Sanitize your OS, only to have it come back when you hook up said iPod. 3. Newer G3+ Mac's use open boot prom or some such which lives in eeprom. Such things can be patched at that layer and can propagate on bootup. Booting off a read only disk (CDROM, etc) wouldn't help in this case. 4. If you live in a crowded area, your iPod can be lifted off you in a false mugging, or break in, pick pocketting while you're at a restaurant, movie, etc. 5. Watching for files that change daily is a fool's task for the reasons mentioned above, and the Sysiphean task it presents. Better get the equivalent of Cops or Tripwire to do the work for you, but they too can be tampered with. 6. If McAffee bent over to the Feds, you can be sure that so will the makers of Zone Alarm and other firewalls. 7. Remember, they don't need to capture all your keystrokes. Just the ones you use as passphrases. And they don't need to copy your whole hard drive, though they easily could when you're out of the house. Just your secret key file and your passphrase. 8. If you shut off your computer when you leave your house, it makes their job that much easier. If you leave it on, they could note what's open and put it back to the same spot. 9. If you use a login screen, etc, Or they could simply run something that would take a snapshot of your desktop, shutdown your Mac, install the malware/copy your files, then and boot off of a floppy that displays the screen you left up, plus a Type 1 Bomb (MacOS equivalent of blue screen of death), and eject the floppy thus - making it look like your Mac crashed, or, simply go down to the basement and trip your circuit breakers making it look like you've had a power failure (even UPS's run out at some point.) 10. Ordered any new copies of a bit of software? Maybe they have a deal with FedEx, UPS, the Mailman. Maybe what you're getting is the upgrade and then some. How can you tell that copy of SmallTalk doesn't carry an extra bit of code just for you? How can you tell that the latest patch to MacOS you've just downloaded really came from Apple? Sure DNS said it was from ftp.apple.com but how do you know that the router upstream from your internet provider didn't route your packets via ftp.fbi.gov? Once they have physical access, you're fucked. Remote access is almost as dangerous as them having physical access, however it can work in your favor as they won't be as familiar with your environment, and thus are far more likely to expose the malware to you. Sure, all of these things are more or less preventable, except for physical access, and a lot of these come down to trust and reputation. But reputation and trust are also rubber hose-able (if there is such a word.) :) You can trust your best friend until you find out otherwise. You can trust your bank until you find out otherwise. You can trust your software provider until you find out otherwise. But by the time you've found out, if you've found out at all, you've already been fucked. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS > snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing. > > I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and > see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size > changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.) > > The mathematical side of most encryption is vastly stronger than the > "crypto hygiene" side. There's a reason "code rooms" and "crypto > shacks" on military ships and bases have lots of hoops to jump through, > with locked boxes, double-keyed switches, controlled access, etc. > > Most users of PGP take no steps to secure key materials. (I plead > guilty, too.) Most of us are used to immediate access, and we want > crypto integrated with our mail. The notion of going to a locked safe, > taking out the laptop or removable hard drive, ensuring an "air gap" > between the decoding system and the Net, and checking for keyloggers > and hostile code, and so on, is foreign to most of us. > > The "dongle" idea (e.g., Dallas Semiconductor buttons, etc.) has been > around for a long time. Here's a new twist: the Apple iPod music > player. I just got one. A 4.6 GB hard disk (Toshiba 1.8"). Hooks up via > Firewire/IEEE 1394, with the link recharging the battery and > auto-linking. The disk can also be mounted as a standard Firewire disk. > Meaning, it could be used to store key material and even be used for > PGP scratch operations. The increased security comes from its small > size (easy to lock up) and because I usually have it with me when I am > away from home. This makes "sneak and peek" searches and plants of > malicious code less useful. Not a complete solution. Crypto hygiene and > all. > > Here's the article: > > > Path: sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!sjcppf01!usenetserver.com!hub1.nntpserver.com!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail > > From: Rastus P. Riley > > Newsgroups: misc.survivalism > > Subject: Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions > > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:37:27 -0800 > > Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com > > Message-ID: <1m950usq1saskrs1g0ajmdi5h3e49fcd8b at 4ax.com> > > > > > On 25 Nov 2001 21:48:28 GMT, phatmike at isomorphic.net (phatmike) wrote: > > > > >> According to the Washington Post, "At least one antivirus software company, > > >> McAfee Corp., contacted the FBI on Wednesday to ensure its software wouldn't > > >> inadvertently detect the bureau's snooping software and alert a criminal > > >> suspect." > > >> > > >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1436-2001Nov22.html > > > > 1. Use a secure type of OS with login screen for every session > > a. Log out after every use > > b. If house invaded, Feds need to have initial login > > password to insert trojan. > > > > 2. Use In/Out firewall > > a. Zone Alarm Pro > > b. Monitors in/out traffic > > 1. If trojan tries to send data, then firewall will > > highlight it. > > > > 3. Always check for small programs by last accessed date. > > a. Uncheck hidden files > > b. Look for files that increase in size by testing with 300 > > random keystrokes. > > > > 4. Use Proxies, don't run attatchments, don't use > > Outbreak Express. > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > -Rastus > > From Tony_Thompson at nai.com Mon Nov 26 12:49:56 2001 From: Tony_Thompson at nai.com (Thompson, Tony) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:49:56 -0600 Subject: Magic Lantern Message-ID: Declan, With regards to your message below, Network Associates/McAfee has not contacted the FBI, nor has the FBI contacted NAI/McAfee, regarding Magic Lantern. Additionally, we do not expect the FBI to contact Network Associates/McAfee regarding Magic Lantern. Regards, Tony Thompson Public Relations Manager Network Associates / McAfee 408_346.3696 tony_thompson at nai.com From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 26 14:55:29 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:55:29 -0800 Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions Message-ID: <3C02C861.CF293E20@lsil.com> Sunder wrote : >Great and wonderful except: > >1. If such spyware has already been installed on your system you can't >trust your os therefore: >[snip] > Yes - end of story. >2. Any hard drive you can access so can they. "They" can patch your >disk: >[snip] > The only way I can think of to prevent this is to have the disk completely encrypted in which case you could safely give a copy to anyone who wanted one. The BIOS shouldn't be trusted either. The problem then is booting which could be done from some sort of card/dongle that you carry with you that requires a (many digit)PIN before it regurgitates your boot code. >3. Newer G3+ Mac's use open boot prom or some such which lives in >eeprom. Such things can be patched at that layer and can propagate on >bootup. Booting off a read only disk (CDROM, etc) wouldn't help in this >case. > Yup. Maybe a bootFLASH can be replaced with some SRAM which must be downloaded from your key device before booting. Something like : power up, hold processor in reset, remove boot SRAM from bus, load boot code, switch boot memory to system bus, allow startup. >4. If you live in a crowded area, your iPod can be lifted off you >in a false mugging, or break in, pick pocketting while you're at a >restaurant, movie, etc. > A physical device plus a PIN seems somewhat immune to that problem. In fact you could keep multiple copies. >5. Watching for files that change daily is a fool's task for the reasons >mentioned above, and the Sysiphean task it presents. Better get the >equivalent of Cops or Tripwire to do the work for you, but they too can be >tampered with. > Mostly. >6. If McAffee bent over to the Feds, you can be sure that so will the >makers of Zone Alarm and other firewalls. > Probably anything that is exported and some that aren't. >7. Remember, they don't need to capture all your keystrokes. Just the >ones you use as passphrases. And they don't need to copy your whole hard >drive, though they easily could when you're out of the house. Just your >secret key file and your passphrase. > >8. If you shut off your computer when you leave your house, it makes their >job that much easier. If you leave it on, they could note what's open and >put it back to the same spot. > Not if there is no code in the clear on the machine - no functional BIOS, no usable HDD. >9. If you use a login screen, etc, Or they could simply run something that >would take a snapshot of your desktop, shutdown your Mac, install the >malware/copy your files, then and boot off of a floppy that displays the >screen you left up, plus a Type 1 Bomb (MacOS equivalent of blue screen of >death), and eject the floppy thus - making it look like your Mac crashed, >or, simply go down to the basement and trip your circuit breakers making >it look like you've had a power failure (even UPS's run out at some >point.) > With the BIOS and HDD encrypted off is safe. Might be a neat little gizmo with a keypad. BIOS is encrypted on the motherboard. Boot memory is SRAM that is lost when power is removed ( lost short of extreme detection measures that is ). The little gizmo reads the encrypted BIOS, decrypts and transfers it to boot SRAM. >10. Ordered any new copies of a bit of software? Maybe they have a deal >with FedEx, UPS, the Mailman. Maybe what you're getting is the upgrade >and then some. How can you tell that copy of SmallTalk doesn't carry an >extra bit of code just for you? How can you tell that the latest patch to >MacOS you've just downloaded really came from Apple? Sure DNS said it was >from ftp.apple.com but how do you know that the router upstream from your >internet provider didn't route your packets via ftp.fbi.gov? > >Once they have physical access, you're fucked. Remote access is almost as >dangerous as them having physical access, however it can work in your >favor as they won't be as familiar with your environment, and thus are far >more likely to expose the malware to you. > >Sure, all of these things are more or less preventable, except for >physical access, and a lot of these come down to trust and reputation. >But reputation and trust are also rubber hose-able (if there is such a >word.) :) > >You can trust your best friend until you find out otherwise. You can >trust your bank until you find out otherwise. You can trust your software >provider until you find out otherwise. But by the time you've found out, >if you've found out at all, you've already been fucked. > Maybe just installing an OS you got as a binary is all it takes to be F'd. Maybe rebuilding that OS with an F'd compiler propagates the effedness. If you have everything encrypted until your key device readies it for boot then you could run a F'd BIOS, OS and apps as long as you kept the system isolated. Let it log all it wants. Sounds like a good sentence for a Windows box. Mike From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 26 15:54:55 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:54:55 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011125193022.007b6a10@pop.sprynet.com> References: Message-ID: <3C0265CF.31469.738F65@localhost> On 25 Nov 2001, at 19:30, David Honig wrote: > At 03:05 PM 11/25/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: > >For many years some of us have argued strongly for "reputation" as a > >core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the > >phrase "reputation capital." > > I recently posted how ground squirrels have rep cap. > It was interesting, but unless I misread it (a distinct possibility) the squirrels didn't really have something we'd call a reputation. The squirrels would remember "that squirrel keeps claiming there's a stuffed badger when there is no stuffed badger" and would ignore his warnings, but a real reputation system would be more like a new squirrel shows up and the experienced squirrels tell the new squirrel which squirrels are reliable and which aren't. I don't think squirrels are capable of that. The idea of a universal scalar reputation would be that every squirrel in the world has the same opinion of every other squirrel's reliability. I don't think anything like that exists in any species. George > >1. The assumption that an agent or actor possesses a "reputation." A > >kind of scalar number attached to a person, a bank, an institution, or > >even a nym. > > Two kinds of entities: one maintains reputations, the other doesn't. > Guess which is exploited to extinction? > But that's not the issue. The point is that repution ins't a simple scalar i.e. one can have a repuation as being highly informed in certain circles and be considered a complete nutter in others, or considered extremely well informed on certain topics and woefully misinformed on others. Even a reputation for morality implies conforming to a specific idea as to what moral behavior is. George > ... > > Again CPunks -or other analysts- are not *advocating* nearly as much as some > might like to believe; instead IMHO there is a public discussion > going on about essentially inevitable trends we've observed. From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 26 16:25:08 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:25:08 -0800 Subject: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011120224049.04cba980@bivens.parrhesia.com> References: Message-ID: <3C026CE4.28729.8F3780@localhost> On 20 Nov 2001, at 22:54, Greg Broiles wrote: > Very early in its lifetime, the Autonomous Zones/Mojo Nation people said > that maybe Mojo would someday be exchangable with real cash, though the > assumption was that during the early stages of software development, people > were playing with worthless currency for proof-of-concept, and that at some > point the old Mojo would be useless or disabled, and people would start > using New Mojo instead, where New Mojo might have real value. > Here's my recollection as to how this was supposed to work: 1) people who participated in the beta got free mojo as a reward for participating (they'd keep their mojo when the beta period was over) 2) In the non-beta, people would have to pay (or something) to get a starting stash of mojo 3) I don't think the "Evil Geniuses" ever expected to act as mojo-cash brokers; rather, anyone who had a supply of cash and mojo could act as a cash-mojo broker, and mojo would find its own price. > > And that problem seems to be at the center of Nomen Nescio's sotto voce > suggestion that some unnamed cypherpunks work up a currency which can be > used to "pay" people for providing information which is of value - I get > the impression that s/he is imagining some magic fairy would mint up piles > of the currency, and assign it equally to every subscriber, who would then > be empowered to pay it to the content providers they liked best. > > That's very warm and fuzzy and hippy-like, but if these tokens are handed > out for free, then what, exactly, is their value? > Right. If the tokens are EVER going to be worth anything, there can't be a way to accumulate then for free. If people have this psychological block against paying "real money" for tokens, maybe it's a good idea to make them trade CPU time for them in one of the seti-like projects. Somebody mentioned something about one involving protein-folding that sounded like it might actually be useful. George > I think the Extropians did something like that, which ended in some sort of > fiasco which some cypherpunks were involved in, though I don't know the > details and was never a participant in that list/social circle. > > > -- > Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 > 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. > 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National > disgrace. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 26 16:37:12 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:37:12 -0800 Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions Message-ID: <72390FCA-E2DB-11D5-9F69-0050E439C473@got.net> [I sent this a couple of hours ago, hasn't appeared on my feed, lne.com. Apologies if you get it twice.] On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 11:49 AM, Sunder wrote: > Great and wonderful except: > > 1. If such spyware has already been installed on your system you can't > trust your os therefore: > > a. It may use your OS to hide the key capture log, so you > won't be able to just watch files. Think of a kernel patch > that removes all references to a specific file, not just > sets it to be hidden. Yes, but this is probably beyond current and foreseeable attacks. I don't dispute that all sorts of advanced attacks are possible, just that the fixes this guy suggested are "much better than doing nothing." Even _secure_ OSes (KeyCOS, for example) are vulnerable to attacks when physical access is gained...doesn't make it easy, though. > > 4. If you live in a crowded area, your iPod can be lifted off you > in a false mugging, or break in, pick pocketting while you're at a > restaurant, movie, etc. This implies a level of surveillance/commitment beyond what most FBI attacks are at. More importantly, theft of my iPod would then trigger certain actions. Cancelling my existing key and generation of a new one. All of these kinds of "they've got your hardware" attacks are present with nearly all systems. All require more work than the simple insertion of a keystroke logger involves. It's all measures and countermeasures. > > 10. Ordered any new copies of a bit of software? Maybe they have a deal > with FedEx, UPS, the Mailman. Maybe what you're getting is the upgrade > and then some. How can you tell that copy of SmallTalk doesn't carry an > extra bit of code just for you? How can you tell that the latest patch > to > MacOS you've just downloaded really came from Apple? Sure DNS said it > was > from ftp.apple.com but how do you know that the router upstream from > your > internet provider didn't route your packets via ftp.fbi.gov? Paranoia can be a dangerous thing. --Tim May "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound" --Tim May "That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 26 16:42:37 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:42:37 -0800 Subject: in praise of gold In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011121075550.007f6bb0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <200111210112.UAA17052@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <3C0270FD.7796.9F3958@localhost> On 21 Nov 2001, at 7:55, David Honig wrote: > At 08:12 PM 11/20/01 -0500, Faustine wrote: > >David wrote: > >George wrote: > > > >>>5) Gold makes women sleep with you. I don't know why they > >>>like it, but they do. > >>They sleep with you because of your large cattle herd only they > >>have accepted abstracted value and settle for gold or stocks... > > > > > >Not all women are golddiggers. I happen to think any woman who marries > .. > >The only "abstracted value" I find really intriguing is the quality of... > > You should interpret my statement in the context of George's statement > not your personal life. > > Also regardless of your personal tastes, you should be familiar with > sociobiology, Desmond Morris, etc. Peacock feathers, mammaries on humans, > antlers, etc. > > Actually, in that context I was specifically NOT referring to gold as a generic proxy for value, if you'll recall I was listing reasons was gold is particularly well suited to be a proxy for value. The point is that gold is something that falls into the category of sparkly things that women like. Women will sleep with you if you give them jewelry, even if they're not going to sell it. Umm, or so I've been told. Of course, men like the sparkly stuff also, but if wear lots of jewelry people are likely to think you're either gay or a pimp. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but giving off misleading signals can lead to embarassment. George From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 26 17:12:38 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:12:38 -0800 Subject: Sixpack Encryption Email client In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C027806.19207.BAB693@localhost> On 21 Nov 2001, at 21:00, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > David wrote: > > > Declan's comment on operating a physical > > remailer for suitably valuable cargo, > > plus some of Tim's recent comments about > > integration, made me think of the > > question in the subject line. So far > >I see at least three possible answers. > > > > 1) Make lots of money. > > > > 2) Spread awareness (that "funny feeling in the stomach" recently > > discussed) and save our fellow man. Make the world safe for privacy. > > > > 3) Ensure that cryptography and privacy-enhancing technologies have uses > > besides "Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse," so that they aren't banned. > > > > anything else? > > Yes, a corollary to 2) is that by saving our fellow man, we are saving > ourselves as well. The elitist idea that it doesn't make any difference > what happens to the little people is wrong-headed. Because the world is set > up to make cars affordable for the little people, you and I can have > personal automotive transportation at a fraction of the cost if we were to > try and assemble them up in Galt's Gulch. If crypto gets wide-spread use by > the little people, our use will be lost in the noise. > > > S a n d y > > I gave a little bit of thought about what an encrypted email client should look like for joe sixpack to use. Here's how the DEFAULT behavior would work: When you install the software, it generates a public-private key pair. It saves your private key right there on your hard disk unencrypted, no tricky passphrase to remember. It then uploads your private key to some central server. The software maintains a list of public keys, if you want to send mail to someone for whom you don't have a public key, it'll check the server for one. If you have a key for someone, it'll automatically encrypt. If you receive encrypted mail, it'll automatically decrypt (and save the decrypted mail on your hard drive). It'll have a little icon on a mail message indicating if it was encrypted, and there'll be an icon next to each name in the address book indicating if you have a key for that address, but for the most part it'll encrypt opportunistically and the user won't need to know or care if a message is encrypted or not. I'm sure I don't need to go into detail explaining what's wrong with this, but it should be obvious that every convenience violates an important security rule. And it pretty much has to be that way. You either have to remember a passphrase and key it in, or any fool who gets access to your computer can easily read your private key, and so on. Personally, I think it'd be better if the sixpackers used this kind of encryption than no encryption at all, if I thought that people wuld use this kind of email client I would write it, it shouldn't be too hard since I could probably steal most of the code. George From roijr at ozemail.com.au Mon Nov 26 17:17:52 2001 From: roijr at ozemail.com.au (roijr at ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:17:52 Subject: Have a look at this! Message-ID: <95.184457.36557@ozemail.com.au> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4666 bytes Desc: not available URL: From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 26 17:21:07 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:21:07 -0800 Subject: Cattle Herding... (was Re: in praise of gold) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C027A03.19969.C27924@localhost> On 23 Nov 2001, at 19:13, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Pecunia, the latin word for money, comes from the Etruscian pecu, meaning, cow. > > Cheers, > RAH > And of course the German word for money is Gelt, which means Gold. Cows might have served well as currency for primitives like the Etruscans, but can you imagine using them today? I took a bus this morning, the fair was 1.10 and I only had paper money so they ripped me off 90 cents. But if I was an Etruscan, they would've taken my whole cow! George > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ericm at lne.com Mon Nov 26 17:43:30 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:43:30 -0800 Subject: Sixpack Encryption Email client In-Reply-To: <3C027806.19207.BAB693@localhost>; from georgemw@speakeasy.net on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 05:12:38PM -0800 References: <3C027806.19207.BAB693@localhost> Message-ID: <20011126174330.A28241@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 05:12:38PM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > I gave a little bit of thought about what an encrypted email client > should look like for joe sixpack to use. Here's how the DEFAULT > behavior would work: > > When you install the software, it generates a public-private key > pair. It saves your private key right there on your hard disk > unencrypted, no tricky passphrase to remember. It then uploads > your private key to some central server. you meant uploads your public key to some central server. > The software maintains a list of public keys, if you want to send > mail to someone for whom you don't have a public key, it'll > check the server for one. If you have a key for someone, it'll > automatically encrypt. If you receive encrypted mail, it'll > automatically decrypt (and save the decrypted mail on your hard > drive). It'll have a little icon on a mail message indicating if > it was encrypted, and there'll be an icon next to each name > in the address book indicating if you have a key for that > address, but for the most part it'll encrypt opportunistically > and the user won't need to know or care if a message is > encrypted or not. I think that the Joe Sixpacks who would care enough to install "secure" email would like to have some sort of feedback that it's working, i.e. they need to unlock the private key with a password. Of course they'll choose a lame one, but that's besides the point. There's two sub-species of Sixpack-- the one I describe, and those who don't know and don't care about secure email, which is who you're talking about. It's the the "early adopter" Sixpacks I'm thinking of. Once you get enough of them, then the someone will declare it an industry standard and all the Sixpacks will get it, whether they know it or not. I wrote something like what you're describing long ago, for a large workstation maker. Only this was a hack on sendmail to automagically encrypt/decrypt mail between offices in foreign countries whose security services were known to snoop on technology companies. > Personally, I think it'd be better if the sixpackers used this kind > of encryption than no encryption at all, if I thought that people > wuld use this kind of email client I would write it, it shouldn't > be too hard since I could probably steal most of the code. How about an add-on to MSIE or Netscape? Either one has a pile of crypto junk to call on. Making it work with S/MIME might be an easy way to do it. Eric From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 15:45:56 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:45:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: mapping in the sierras and places west In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011112084321.03ce0320@bivens.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: Magneto-tellurics On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Greg Broiles wrote: > At 07:50 AM 11/12/2001 -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >But you missed the mil 4-engine cargo-type plane towing a wire held > >in a trailing Y config by two mil copters flying in tight formation > >behind it, > >circling SF. Yes, I wouldn't have believed that was possible without > >having seen it. > > > >Maybe they were mapping too. > > They overflew San Jose and Santa Clara, too, headed westbound. > > What would a trailing wire like that measure or receive? My limited > understanding of RF says it'd be good for picking up very low frequency > emissions or transmissions - but I don't know of any sources of those that > I'd expect to be of interest, other than those used by US subs and I'm sure > they have better ways to pick those up. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 26 17:46:36 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:46:36 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C0265CF.31469.738F65@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.20011125193022.007b6a10@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011126174636.007b0100@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:54 PM 11/26/01 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >On 25 Nov 2001, at 19:30, David Honig wrote: >> >> I recently posted how ground squirrels have rep cap. >> > >It was interesting, but unless I misread it (a distinct possibility) >the squirrels didn't really have something we'd call a reputation. >The squirrels would remember "that squirrel keeps claiming there's >a stuffed badger when there is no stuffed badger" and would >ignore his warnings, but a real reputation system would be more >like a new squirrel shows up and the experienced squirrels >tell the new squirrel which squirrels are reliable and which aren't. >I don't think squirrels are capable of that. Aha. I have learned something then; I didn't realize that reps must be somewhat infectious. But infectious-reps require a decent medium, e.g., a decent language; squirrels don't really have the degrees of freedom. Though it must be obvious to new squirrels (eg by observing other more seasoned squirrels lack of reaction) that no one takes Spoofie Squirrel seriously. In any case, each squirrel certainly believes their own set of experiences (and reputations inferred therefrom) and so would advocate the adoption of its experience, if sufficiently verbal to do so. Much like primates. In any case, "Spoofie is unreliable about badgers" seems to me to be a reputation. At one extreme of opinion, reps are personal; at the other they are objective and are therefore worth transferring amongst members of so-equipt species. Nature *does* have joints at which it can be carved; high-rep people will tend to recommend other high-rep people and the UFO types will cross reference the Bigfoot folks. Such is the nature of peer review, of cultural epistemology. There are objective parts of reputation, even if no objective agreement on the *sign* of the quality. Crypto/tech will only elaborate what is innate or natural in social critters. From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 26 17:48:08 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:48:08 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C028058.14213.DB343C@localhost> On 25 Nov 2001, at 15:05, Tim May wrote: > For many years some of us have argued strongly for "reputation" as a > core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the > phrase "reputation capital." > > Reputation is an easily understandable concept which explains a lot > about how imperfect protocols in the real world nevertheless "work." I > won't go into what reputation is, even as defined by folks like us. > > But there are many aspects of reputation which lead to problems: > > 1. The assumption that an agent or actor possesses a "reputation." A > kind of scalar number attached to a person, a bank, an institution, or > even a nym. > > 2. When in fact different people have different assessments of some > agent's reputation. Thus suggesting strongly that reputation is not > something attached as simply as above. > > 3. All of the nonsense about how "Alice's reputation has been harmed," > deriving from the faulty notion of this scalar property attached to > Alice. > I don't think this follows. If I say "Alice ripped me off", Alice's reputation may well suffer even if reputation isn't a scalar property. People who consider my word as being worthless won't lower their opinion of Alice, but somebody might. > The value of a monetary token is NOT something that is determined by > precise mathematical protocols. It's a value based on _belief_ or > _expectation_ about the behaviors of other actors, and about the future. > Currency suspected of being counterfeit may sell for 10 cents on the > dollar, to a sophisticated buyer, while currency suspected of being > legit may or may not sell for at or near face value. Doesn't the concept of "selling for face value" imply that there's a currency known to be legit? I mean, if I'm trading paper for paper I ought to expect to average 1 for 1. Somehow this reminds me of a story I once read where one crook was selling another crook what was purported to be high quality counterfeit money but was actually the proceeds from a bank heist (the irony being that the "real" money was worth considerably less than the counterfeit). > Instead of an ontology of objects and their attached methods and > property lists, including "reputations" and "monetary values," we should > be thinking in terms of these objects as just other actors, with each > actor maintaining his own internal model of "possible worlds" (how he > thinks the other actors will behave, what he thinks may be future > outcomes, what his own goals and expectations are). Seen this way, there > is no "reputation" or "value" that is universal. Everything is relative. > Everything is seen through the light of internal states/possible worlds. > I believe what you are saying here is true, but I don't see what recognizing this gets you. In principle, if there's a digital currency which is allegedly redeemable for dollars and I think that there's about a 50-50 chance that I'll actually be able to redeem the currency then I ought to be willing to accept it at 50% face value, but in practice evaluating probabilities like that is pretty hard, and I'm pretty much always going to be coming up with probabilities close to one or close to zero that any kind of "backed" currency is good. > This is the market view of reality. There is no "Reality." Just > ensembles of actors, various facets, incomplete knowledge...all > lubricated by betting. Every street kid knows this. > > Digital money is just one facet of this worldview. > Again, I don't see where this gets us. George > --Tim May > "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a > monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also > into you." -- Nietzsche From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 15:55:25 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:55:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Pay to Play in Information Markets In-Reply-To: <8f5f094fc8b717cc3e52d1a75656a5cd@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > This has been a long debate among hard-core capitalist types who want > to see everything have a price. Ask them how much they'd charge to change their view... > In a voluntary system for exchanging > and publishing information, who should pay and who should be paid? This is silly. Both participants are 'sellers' from the others perspective. Both are 'buyers' from their own perspective. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 26 17:58:54 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:58:54 -0800 Subject: "It's Proto-Indo-European for "money" " In-Reply-To: <3C027A03.19969.C27924@localhost> Message-ID: <501B6E30-E2DA-11D5-9F69-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 05:21 PM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > On 23 Nov 2001, at 19:13, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > >> Pecunia, the latin word for money, comes from the Etruscian pecu, >> meaning, cow. >> >> Cheers, >> RAH >> > > And of course the German word for money is Gelt, which means > Gold. > German is but one of _many_ descendants of Proto-Indo-European. My favorite dictionary, the American Heritage Dictionary, has extensive etymologies tracing to PIE. Note that often the words have Greek and Latin cognates, meaning in most cases an etymology distinct from German. Lots of English, Norse, Dutch, and German words have the "gl" sound: glitter, glisten, glimmer, gleaming, gloaming, gloss, glow, glower, gold, guild, guilder, gall, cholera, even Sanskrit words. Left as an exercise: the PIE origins of "mark" (another common word for a unit of money), "dollar" (ditto), and "crown." For extra credit, "peso," "peseta," and variants. For extra extra credit, "florin." Here's the entry: http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE158.html ENTRY: ghel-2 DEFINITION: To shine; with derivatives referring to colors, bright materials, gold (probably yellow metal), and bile or gall. Oldest form *hel-, becoming *ghel- in centum languages. Derivatives include gold, arsenic, melancholy, Hare Krishna, gleam, glimpse, and glide. I. Words denoting colors. 1. Suffixed form *ghel-wo-. yellow, from Old English geolu, yellow, from Germanic *gelwaz. 2. Suffixed variant form *ghl-ro-. chloro-; chlorite1, from Greek khlros, green, greenish yellow. 3. Suffixed variant form *ghlo-wo-. chloasma, from Greek khloos (< *khlo-wo-s), greenish color. 4. O-grade form *ghol-. podzol, from Russian zola, ashes (from their color). 5. Suffixed form *ghel-i-. Hare Krishna, Harijan, from Sanskrit hari-, tawny yellow. 6. Possibly suffixed zero-grade form *gh-wo- in Latin fulvus, tawny (with dialectal f- as in fel, gall): griseofulvin. II. Words denoting gold. 1. Suffixed zero-grade form *gh-to-. a. gold, from Old English gold, gold; b. gild1, from Old English gyldan, to gild, from Germanic denominative verb *gulthjan; c. guilder, gulden, from Middle Dutch gulden, golden; d. gowan, from Middle English gollan, yellow flower, possibly from a source akin to Old Norse gullinn, golden. ad all from Germanic *gultham, gold. 2. Suffixed o-grade form *ghol-to-. zloty, from Polish zoto, gold. 3. Suffixed full-grade form *ghel-no-. arsenic, from Syriac zarnk, orpiment, from Middle Iranian *zarnik-, from Old Iranian *zarna-, golden. III. Words denoting bile. 1. Suffixed o-grade form *ghol-no-. gall1, from Old English gealla, gall, from Germanic *galln-, bile. 2. Suffixed o-grade form *ghol--. chole-, choler, cholera; acholia, melancholy, from Greek khol, bile. 3. Suffixed full-grade form *ghel-n-. felon2, from Latin fel, bile. IV. A range of Germanic words (where no preforms are given, the words are late creations). 1. gleam, from Old English glm, bright light, gleam, from Germanic *glaimiz. 2. glimpse, from Middle English glimsen, to glimpse, from a source akin to Middle High German glimsen, to gleam. 3. glint, from Middle English glent, a glint, and glenten, to shine, from a source akin to Swedish dialectal glinta, to shine. 4. glimmer, from Middle English glimeren, to glimmer, from a source akin to Swedish glimra, glimmer. 5. glitter, from Old Norse glitra, to shine. 6. glitz, from Old High German glzan, to sparkle. 7. glisten, from Old English glisnian, to shine. 8. glister, from Middle Dutch glinsteren or Middle Low German glisteren, to shine. 9. glass, glaze, glazier, from Old English glfs, glass, from Germanic *glasam, glass. 10. glare1, from Middle English glaren, to glitter, stare, from a source akin to Middle Low German glaren, to glisten, from Germanic *glaz-. 11. gloss1, from a source perhaps akin to Icelandic glossi, a spark. 12. glance2, from Old High German glanz, bright. 13. gleg, from Old Norse glvggr, clear-sighted. 14. glad1, from Old English glfd, shining, joyful, from Germanic *gladaz. 15. glee; gleeman, from Old English glo, sport, merriment, from Germanic *gleujam. 16a. gleed, from Old English gld, ember; b. glogg, from Old Norse glodh, ember. Both a and b from Germanic *gl-di-. 17a. glow, from Old English glwan, to glow; b. glower, from Middle English gloren, to gleam, stare, probably from a source akin to Norwegian dialectal glora, to gleam, stare; c. gloat, from a source perhaps akin to Old Norse glotta, to smile (scornfully). ac all from Germanic *gl-. 18. gloaming, from Old English glm, twilight, from Germanic *gl-m-. 19. Possibly distantly related to this root is Germanic *gldan, to glide. a. glide, from Old English gldan, to slip, glide; b. glissade, from Old French glier, to glide; c. glitch, from Old High German gltan, to glide; d. glede, from Old English glida, kite (< gliding, hovering bird), from derivative Germanic *glidn-. 20. glib, from a source possibly akin to Middle Low German glibberich, slippery. (Pokorny 1. hel- 429.) --Tim May "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler From piolenc at mozcom.com Mon Nov 26 02:34:51 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:34:51 +0800 Subject: HDCP break and DMCA References: Message-ID: <3C021ACB.5B8957CB@mozcom.com> Tim May wrote: > > Really? Sounds to me like they fall under "Fair Use." That provision > > specifically exempts copying for research or education. > > I strongly doubt this. "Fair use" is not about setting up alternate > publishing schemes, but is about quoting relevant sections, collecting > material for research purposes, etc. > I'm not a copyright expert, but I strongly doubt what you say above. Well, I'm not a copyright expert either, but I have read the statutes and a smattering of case law, and I have been running a photocopy service - i.e. practicing what I preach - for 25 years or so, with no trouble so far except from anal-retentive Kinko's clerks. Marc de Piolenc From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 26 19:06:59 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:06:59 -0800 Subject: Anonymizing Scam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 06:24 PM, Anonymous wrote: > The following message by Lance Cottrell responding to John Young's > accusations was sent to the cypherpunks list but apparently never > appeared here. > > ======================================================================== > > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 00:15:16 -0800 > To: "R. A. Hettinga" , > Digital Bearer Settlement List , > dcsb at ai.mit.edu, > cryptography at wasabisystems.com, cypherpunks at lne.com, > jya at pipeline.com > From: "Lance M. Cottrell" > Subject: Re: Anonymizing Scam > Describing our policy of open access as "sucking up to the TLAs" is > absurd. I would have thought my history in this field would have > earned me some consideration before jumping to that kind of > conclusion. Does government and industry have no rights to, or needs > for, privacy? It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to > take. > "It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to take." Assuming that John Young speaks for "Cyphepunks" is bizarre. --Tim May "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." --John Stuart Mill From info at winycom.co.kr Mon Nov 26 02:23:44 2001 From: info at winycom.co.kr (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?aW5mbw==?=) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:23:44 +0900 Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIENZUEhFUlBVTktTtNS/oSC6uLO7tMIgwPzA2rD4ua4=?= Message-ID: Untitled Document 동아대학교 지식자원개발센터 우 602-103 부산광역시부산진구 부전1동 266-2 3F / 전화(051)817-4464 ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ 문서번호 지식 2001제1-0001호 시행일자 2001. 11 (경유) 수신 : 교육대상 및 업체 참조 : http://www.donga-it.com 선 결 지 시 접수 일자 시간 결 재 공 람 번호 처리과 담당자 제목 : 동아대학교 지식자원개발 센터의 IT 교육 안내 1. 급변하는 정보 사회에서 지적인 전문가 양성을 위해 최선을 다하는 동아대학교 지식자원개발센터는 디지털 시대에 발맞춰 IT관련 인재육성에 중점을 두고 전 직원 및 강사진들은 빠른 교육정보와 함께 산업체가 바라는 실무교육과 이론교육을 실시 하고 있으며 기존 전문 인력에도 재교육에 힘쓰고 있습니다. 2.IT교육과정 계획안을 공고하오니 많은 관심과 협조 부탁드립니다. 가. IT 교육과정 안내 과 정 명 교 육 내 용 교 육 기 간 ASP.NET(C#) Windows 2000 Server/IIS, MS-SQL 2000 Server, JavaScript&Active Server Page, ASP.NET&C#, RP(Real Project) 4개월(480시간) 10:00 ~ 17:00 웹프로그래밍 Windows 2000 Server, MS-SQL 2000 Server, Java Beginning Programming, Java Web-Server Programming, RP(Real Project) 4개월(240시간) 09:00 ~ 12:00 13:30 ~ 16:30 PC 정비사 PC분해조립, H/W고장 진단수리, 레지스트리 설정, 윈도우 구조, 설치복구, S/W고장 진단수리, 하드디스크 관리, 멀티 OS부팅, 시스템 보안, Error 해결 2개월(120시간) 19:00 ~ 22:00 웹페이지 전문가 Html, CSS & JavaScript, WebEditer, Photoshop, Windows 2000 Server, ASP/SQL, 실전 웹사이트구축 3개월(180시간) 19:00 ~ 22:00 P C T 운영체제(OS), 한글97, Excel, PowerPoint, 네트워크 통신, 컴퓨터 상식 1개월(75시간) 09:00 ~ 11:50 12:50 ~ 14:40 14:50 ~ 17:40 나. 특징 및 특전 - 동아대학교 재학생 및 졸업생 10%할인 - Real Project를 통하여 실무 지도 - 동아대학교 총장명의 수료증 지급(수료 합격자) - 수강자에 한하여 평생 On-Line 교육서비스(무료) - 체계적인 강좌와 최첨단 교육시설 - 관련업체와 Join 및 취업알선 - 팀 단위 작업내용을 CD 제공 - 프로젝트는 Center Server에서 3개월간 운영지원 다. 업체에 통보 - 교육과정에 Real Project 과정이 있어 실제로 업체로부터 의뢰를 받아 웹사이트를 제작하고 있습니다. 웹사이트 제작이 필요하신 분들은 사이트에 들어 오셔서 RP 신청서 양식을 다운 받아 가시기 바랍니다. - 사이트 제작시 센터 서버에서 3개월간 운영 지원하여 드립니다. ※ 문의처 ☏ 051)817-4464, 온라인 수강신청 : http://www.donga-it.com, E-mail : webmaster at donga-it.com 동아대학교 지식자원개발센터 서면교육장 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10748 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Mon Nov 26 10:31:02 2001 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:31:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: HDCP break and DMCA Message-ID: <4d3ef99b0c5e207436abe69882310211@remailer.privacy.at> David Wagner writes: > Given this risk, I've decided I cannot afford to continue to work in the > area of copy protection as long as the uncertainty remains. And how in > good conscience can I advise students working with me to work in this > troubled area? I can't. It's understandable that you would be concerned about the DMCA. Niels Ferguson raised the same issues when he decided not to publish. Why, then, did you go ahead with publication? This is the part which is hard to understand. Niels decided not to publish, you and your co-authors apparently came to the opposite conclusion. Rhetorically you are saying the same things as him, but your actions are different. It would be interesting to hear more about how you reconcile the decision to publish this result with the belief that the DMCA makes publication in this field too risky. From declan at well.com Mon Nov 26 16:31:58 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:31:58 -0500 Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions In-Reply-To: ; from wolf@priori.net on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:38:04PM -0800 References: <200111262116.fAQLG6926325@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20011126193157.A26695@cluebot.com> On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:38:04PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > According to a rebutal posted to Declan's list, McAfee.com (not the same > as McAfee) is claiming that neither it nor Network Associates is assisting > the FBI. I admit I'm not familiar with the details of the corporate structure, but my understanding is that McAfee is the anti-virus arm of Network Associates. Another NAI appendage is McAfee.com, which is majority- owned by NAI. So you're right, not precisely the same, but they're close enough for this purpose: I got a near-word-for-word identical denial from NAI, below. -Declan --- From walcott1968 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 19:36:36 2001 From: walcott1968 at yahoo.com (normie_walcott) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:36:36 Subject: PROVEN Work at Home System that Generates FREE LEADS! Message-ID: <200111270041.SAA23457@einstein.ssz.com> PROVEN Work at Home System that GENERATES FREE LEADS! Hi, My name is Normie I am an ordinary woman living in the US who as learned how to make a living on the Internet working from home. I am willing to teach you to do the same, in simple easy to understand lessons so you can be successful to. I will work with you and teach you everything I know for FREE! This is an international business and everyone is welcome, it doesn't matter who you are or where you're from, anyone can do this. You don't have to be a computer whiz or genius to learn to earn on the Internet. You just need a dream and be willing to give some time to learning and implementing the things I teach you. You won't GET RICH QUICK but you will be able to build a good solid income, an income that will depend solely on you and whether or not you are willing to learn. If you are willing to learn and want to get to know and work with a real person, then contact me. I am real and I promise to help you all that I can. You are wondering why would I help you for Free? The company that I am affiliated with pay me commissions on what I do to promote their products/services. If I teach others to do the same they pay me commissions on how well you do at promoting their products/services also. So my goal will be to teach you so well that you are making money and I am making money. I like it when the big boys pay me, and not the little guy like you and me. If you join me and my dedicated team I will even give you a fully working registered copy of Desktop Server 2000 & Atomic Harvester 3 ($500 value). These two incredible programs have been solely responsible for all my success of the last few months. I you are interested in learning more please send a blank E-Mail with “Tell Me More” in the subject line and mail it to walcott1968 at yahoo.com I look forward to hearing back from you soon and hopefully working closely with you in the near future. Sincerely, Normie M. Walcott This is a onetime mailing, you will not receive any further E-mail's from me and you do not have to remove yourself from any list. *****This is NOT SPAM, this is a series of e-mail that you have requested regarding our business.**** From schear at lvcm.com Mon Nov 26 20:17:50 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:17:50 -0800 Subject: [e-gold-list] HavenCo? -- fell over. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126201710.03874d98@pop3.lvcm.com> >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:39:52 +1100 >To: e-gold-list at talk.e-gold.com, dgc.chat at lists.goldmoney.com >From: jpm at interestingsoftware.com >Subject: [dgc.chat] Re: [e-gold-list] HavenCo? -- fell over. >Reply-To: > >Yes! Every havenco site is down, TGC has been down for days -- >havenco has completely fallen over. I imagine they'll be up within a >couple days! > >Here's a message from Havenco (below) > >It's all on the planetgold news page! >JP > > > > >Hello, > > > >I have repeatedly tried to access 3pgold/3ppay et. al. today with no > >success. I also tried loading havenco (3ppay's hoster), and it seems they > >are down. Anyone else having problems connecting to havenco, or their > >hosted sites? > > > >Tristan Petersen > > >At 11:09 AM +0000 11/26/01, Ryan Lackey wrote: > > > >There have been 3 faults in the past 24 hours which combined have > >eliminated all connectivity to/from Sealand (except for 2 x 9.6kbps cell > >links). > > > >1) Our backup VSAT sessions, all with the same satellite, have moved to a > >new satellite; they have been down since Thursday, but since this was > backup, > >repositioning is delayed until this week. > > > >2) Our London primary router was down for several hours; a backup and > >load sharing spare is still on Sealand awaiting deployment. This will also > >enable several additional transit sessions to improve reliability in the > >event of provider outages (such as in the past). This may be done today, > >but depends on the weather. > > > >3) Our intra-UK leased circuits, all 4, seem to be down. Since the VSAT > >sessions are down as well, this is a critical fault; we can't do any kind of > >backup service. We are in contact with the provider for these circuits now > >and trying to determine what happened and how to fix. > > > > > >Time to fix right now is whatever is required to fix the leased circuits; > >as of yet there is no estimate. I am hoping to have it resolved by 1300h > >UTC if at all possible. From measl at mfn.org Mon Nov 26 18:25:15 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:25:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions In-Reply-To: <200111262116.fAQLG6926325@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: While it's of little help to M$ lusers, those of us in the *nix world can use CDROM based filesystems for all but the user data. Yes, you may be compromised, but it won't change any code (which is definitely *not* to say that you aren't in danger from loss of passphrases, etc.) - at least on sensitive machines. I have been using this technique of FreeBSD systems for a little under two years now (yes, you need to build several copies of your root system :). -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From infomacao at giganetstore.com Mon Nov 26 12:38:02 2001 From: infomacao at giganetstore.com (infomacao at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:38:02 -0000 Subject: Sempre em Boa Forma com o Rudolfo Message-ID: <0ee700238201ab1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3071 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:15:50 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:15:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <200111202014.PAA21879@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Faustine wrote: > >Then you have missed a fundamental aspect of human society and the > >responbility (shades of Hayek) that goes along with it. > >Hayek, von Mises, etc. would be disappointed. > > > In a survival situation, nobody gives a crap about "human society", it's either > a matter of conscience or it isn't. Everything is a 'survival situation', some are just easier to resolve than others. False distinction on your part. Everybody with half an interest in surviving the 'survival situation' most certainly cares about 'human society'. They have a primary goal. AVOID DOG-EAT-DOG. However, CACL doesn't provide a process to do that. When faced with a crisis situation it jumps right to the 'worst case' result. The reality is that 'survival situations' are why peoople build societies. It happens to be why ALL social animals adopted that strategy, by sharing and cooperating it becomes possible to maximize the number of survivers. Something that CACL philosophy couldn't care sot about. The reality is that by refusing to force others to share you in fact exacerbate your survival situation. You claim that if somebody forces you it is wrong, yet you seem to believe it's ok to force others. So much for doing away with 'coercion'. At most CACL philosophy buys a level or two of indirection with regard to blaim. However, that doesn't remove the responsibility (re my Hayek quote on that topic a few weeks ago). CACL, as you clearly demonstrate by your responce, is focused on the 'I'. > Actually if I were in that situation, I'd probably try to steal some of the > water for him. Perfect example of why you tend toward CACL philosophy. And by the way, with no 'human society crap' there isn't any such thing as 'stealing'. There is 'taking' and 'taking against anothers wishes' but neither of these are 'stealing'. > But I wouldn't try to pretty up my stealing with some sanctimonious sermon > about needs and obligations to the guy I have at the other > end of my gun. But you just did with your previous example. It's a perfect example of the CACL 'Freedom for me, but not for thee'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From adiele20002000 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 21:19:43 2001 From: adiele20002000 at yahoo.com (adiele egbukole) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:19:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: A wheelchair and an atifficial Limb Message-ID: <20011127051943.68100.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> Sir, I greet you with the Glorious peace of ower Lord Jesus christ, hoping that this email of mine gets to you in good faith. Be that as it may, kindly alow me to introduce myself to you,as we have not met before. my name is ADIELE EGBUKOLE, i am a christian by religion. But unfortunately i am a handicap, although i was not born a handicap but as faith could have it i had an accident two years back that was during my last year in the university.I thank God to that am alive to testify to the wonderful things that the lord have been doing in my live.Today i am an accountant,but the unfortunate situation there is that i lost my right limb due to the accident that i had.this condition has made life immensely difficult for me,this have made me to seek for your much needed help.Please,kindly help me as i cant work and i need to buy a[plastic Right Limb]and a wheel chair to enable me to move freely from one place to ther other. I am very sorry for this, as it's not in my character to ask for such favour, but presently i dont have a choice than to seek for your help.Please, i must beg you that you should'nt hesitate to help me if you can...I want to live a happy live againe.You may want to know how much the wheel chair and the plastic limb will cost me. I have gone for the price; it will cost me $250 to buy a fairly used wheel chair and the plastic limb.PLEASE KINDLY ASSIST ME WITH WHAT EVER AMOUNT THAT YOU CAN, ACTUALLY NOTHING IS TOO SMALL,AND I WILL APPRICIATE WHATEVER HELP YOU CAN RENDER TO ME. You can get in touch with me through my email address, Thank you very much for having the time to go through my mail. Godbless you.perhaps i hope to get a respose from you...Take care of your self and stay bless. Bye for now, Best regards. ADIELE EGBUKOLE. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:21:26 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:21:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011120075832.007cd9b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote: > At 09:19 PM 11/19/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >C-A-C-L's would let people die from thirst before interfering in a 'free > >market'. Others would say screw the market and give that man a drink. > > No, a libertarian would say "screw anyone who'd initiate force > against me to make me to do this" and then make his own decision. Hypocrite. In 'making your own decision' you in effect remove any moral or ehtical framework from your decision. In fact you are acting upon 'freedom for me, but not for thee'. Why? Because you have set yourself up as the decider of another fate. Your feelings about letting others make those sorts of decisions for you are clear. Or do you hold that 'self-defence' applies only to libertarians? No, the only solution in Faustines 'survival situation' is to create a neutral 3rd party that is responsible to all participants. It is not ethical, or workable, to allow each and all to go their own way. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:22:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:22:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: in praise of gold In-Reply-To: <200111210112.UAA17052@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Faustine wrote: > Not all women are golddiggers. They're called 'old maids'. ALL women who are interested in a 'relationship' are 'golddiggers' in the sense they want to 'change' the other party. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:24:54 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:24:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Crypto Winter In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011121081807.007cfeb0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote: > At 07:56 PM 11/20/01 -0800, Morlock Elloi wrote: > >> Capitalism is a natural result of free people. > > > >The ultimate argument. Like in "natural" and "unnatural" sex .... > > Hardly dogma; look at history. Yes, look at history. Many if not most reasons for war and such were not, and are not 'capitalism'. Econimics is NOT the root of human motivation or desire. > Unhindered by social engineers/violence monopolists, people used > tools (capital) to increase productivity. Yes, by creating societies with consequences for those who don't conform. The reality is that one can't escape 'coercion'. Can't be done. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:34:50 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:34:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: in praise of gold In-Reply-To: <3BFEEE17.3082FBA9@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: You should spend some time reading recent work on Chimp and Bonobo packs and the inter-pack shenanigans the females go through (as well as the mapping to human behaviour). On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > On a long road trip one night, I heard an extremely interesting long > discussion amongst a group of psychiatrists, sociologists, and other > scientists, regarding a study which showed, firstly, that large numbers of > attractive young women married unattractive, frequently older, boring, but > financially well-off men. > No surprise, that, eh? But then, the study showed, that a large > percentage of these same women also tended to have adulterous relationships > with what was termed "dangerous" men -- losers, outlaws, reckless adventurers, > etc. > Another surprise was that this was a cross-cultural phenomenon, and the > gist of the discussion was that this wasn't merely thrill seeking or whatever > on the part of the women, but was actually subconscious darwinism in action, > i.e., the woman formed the permanent alliance with the man who could best > support her offspring, then got herself impregnated by the males with the > strongest, sexiest, genetic makeup -- thereby insuring that not only would her > children survive, but they, like their true father (and also like the mother) > would be very attractive and likely to mate. > An extremely interesting idea. Some might find the articles in the most > recent Wired about the high percentages of autism among Silicon Valley > children to be interesting -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:40:28 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:40:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: reputation capital in rodentia In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011124073958.007a2a30@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: They did no such thing. In order for 'reputation' to happen in the context of human society one would have to prove that squirrels have a sense of 'I'. I'll leave the current research and a few minutes of personal time with a rodent speak for that aspect. Further, correlation <> reputation. For example, how long after a given squirrel dedides to ignore a particular alarm cry does the alarm cry still work? One day, two? A week? More importantly, how many squirrels on average does a squirrel ask before it ignores the cry? Crap study, crap interpretation. On Sat, 24 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote: > Ground squirrels maintain reputations. Scientists played > back alarm calls both with (to enhance) and without (to > degrade) different individuals' calls. After 10 false > alarms, that call was ignored; but the high S/N call > caused alarms even without the threat (a stuffed badger) > being present. > > J Hare, B Atkins, Behav Ecol & Sociobio > reported in Sci News 160 p 312 -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:42:30 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:42:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > For many years some of us have argued strongly for "reputation" as a > core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the > phrase "reputation capital." And for as many years many of us have seen that it's not as useful as it would first seem. The reality is that trust isn't transitive and as a result reputation isn't either. > Reputation is an easily understandable concept which explains a lot > about how imperfect protocols in the real world nevertheless "work." I > won't go into what reputation is, even as defined by folks like us. It may be 'easily understood', but it's also easily misunderstood (by many). > But there are many aspects of reputation which lead to problems: Reputation itself is a problem. Past behaviour (toward another) is not a reasonable predictor of future behavior (toward myself). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:43:59 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:43:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <20011125161059.B44340@neutraldomain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Gabriel Rocha wrote: > On Sun, Nov 25, at 03:05PM, Tim May wrote > | Thus, what is the "reputation of the dollar"? Is it because of foolproof > | anti-forgery measures? Is it because of the laws of the U.S.? Etc.? > | > | No, it is a kind of collective hallucination. > > It is not a "Collective hallucination" If you use the work 'reputation' to mean that the past behaviour is a reasonable indicator of future behavior (as most CACL use it) then it is most certainly a shared hallucination. In fact it's not even 'economic', it's 'emotional' in nature. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:44:33 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:44:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <20011126012452.50035.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Morlock Elloi wrote: > Are you saying that governments are providing a valuable service by propping up > arbitrary prohibitions and thus establish a value system against which we can > bang our heads ? You misrepresent, governments don't (in general) make 'arbitrary prohibitions'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Mon Nov 26 19:52:11 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:52:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anonymizing Scam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > Assuming that John Young speaks for "Cyphepunks" is bizarre. Assuming that *anyone* "speaks for [the] cypherpunks" is bizarre... > --Tim May -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:52:30 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:52:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011126174636.007b0100@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote: > Aha. I have learned something then; I didn't realize that reps > must be somewhat infectious. But infectious-reps require a decent > medium, e.g., a decent language; squirrels don't really have the > degrees of freedom. Though it must be obvious to new squirrels > (eg by observing other more seasoned squirrels lack of reaction) that no > one takes Spoofie Squirrel seriously. You're going to learn something else. Once squirrels grow up they don't look to 'other' squirrels for behaviour. It's already set. Squirrels can't learn to solve problems by watching other squirrels. Outside of birds and people, there aren't a lot of animals outside of primates and cetacians that do learn by observation (and this can be, and has been, proven by observation). At most a given squirrel is doing a correlation analysis on whether they (and I challenge you to demonstrate a squirrel has an 'I', which is necessary before they can have a 'they') see a problem or not. After enough false alarms the squirrel HABITUATES and ceases to respond to that call FOR A SHORT TIME PERIOD. You can also find may studies on this involving Meerkats and Chimps (there are lots of studies of chimps - three calls - snake, cheetah, bird). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lmouchabac at magic.fr Mon Nov 26 13:53:14 2001 From: lmouchabac at magic.fr (Lionel MOUCHABAC) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:53:14 GMT Subject: remove Message-ID: <200111262153.fAQLr9S16740@moscou.magic.fr> remove -------------------------------------------------- Gestionnaire de messagerie WebMail / Magic OnLine. http://webmail.magic.fr From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 19:53:20 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:53:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: "It's Proto-Indo-European for "money" " In-Reply-To: <501B6E30-E2DA-11D5-9F69-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > German is but one of _many_ descendants of Proto-Indo-European. Like Korean (but not other oriental languages). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Mon Nov 26 19:58:00 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:58:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: in praise of gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Faustine wrote: > > > Not all women are golddiggers. > > They're called 'old maids'. ALL women who are interested in a > 'relationship' are 'golddiggers' in the sense they want to 'change' the > other party. Nothing like a good across the board generalization, huh Jim? Who was she? It's nice to see you're not bitter ;-/ -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 20:00:56 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:00:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: update.566 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:10:33 -0500 (EST) From: AIP listserver To: physnews-mailing at aip.org Subject: update.566 PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 566 November 21, 2001 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James Riordon HIDDEN OBJECTS REVEALED WITH QUANTUM HOLOGRAPHY. Second sight and remote viewing are terms used to explain charlatans' supposed psychic ability to see hidden objects in terms of pseudoscientific gibberish. Quantum holography, on the other hand, is a method firmly grounded in modern physics that permits the imaging of hidden objects with entangled photons. Of the quantum entanglement phenomena that Einstein described as "spooky action at a distance," quantum holography may be the spookiest to date. Researchers at Boston University's Quantum Imaging Laboratory (Bahaa Saleh, 617-353-7176, besaleh at bu.edu) propose to create holographic images of objects concealed in a spherical chamber. Ideally, a small opening in the chamber wall permits light to enter, but lets no light out. The photons in a beam of light directed through the hole scatter from the enclosed object, and ultimately strike the inner wall of the chamber (see figure at http://www.aip.org/mgr/png). According to the scheme, the inside of chamber would be designed to detect the time when a photon hits the wall but not where it hits. Classically, there is no way to generate an image of an object with this sort of configuration. Quantum mechanically, however, it's possible to build a hologram of the hidden object provided that the photons in the illuminating beam are entangled with photons in another beam. Each photon in an entangled pair has properties (such as momentum or polarization) that are unknown until a measurement is performed on one photon or the other. When a property of one of the photons is measured, corresponding information about its entangled mate is instantly determined. That may seem spooky enough, but in quantum holography, things get spookier still. Holograms are typically constructed with interfering beams of light, which provides more information about a subject than simple illumination can. The additional information helps build a three dimensional image of a three dimensional object. In quantum holography, the researchers measure the simultaneous arrivals of an illuminating photon that is sent into the chamber and a companion photon in the other entangled beam. This measurement tells the researchers about the interference of various possible paths that the single photon inside the chamber could travel. And it's the interference of the possible paths that encodes the holographic image of the hidden object. Very spooky indeed. For the moment, quantum holography exists only on paper. But the researchers assert that there are no technological obstacles to the proposal, and they hope to begin building an experimental system soon. (Ayman F. Abouraddy, Bahaa E. A. Saleh, Alexander V. Sergienko, and Malvin C. Teich, Optics Express, 5 November 2001.) PUZZLING NEUTRINO RESULTS AT FERMILAB. Particle [SSZ: Text deleted] From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 20:04:15 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:04:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Pricing spare resources and options? In-Reply-To: <5f79a43790314774ee0819d6bcada1b2@dizum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > In a competitive market, prices will tend to stabilize at the cost to > the supplier, plus profit. This means nothing, it is self-referential. As a result the rest of the points you make suffer. One can define the 'price' and how it gets there from two perspectives. The first is the seller, the second in the buyer. The sellers position as to why they accepted a particular prices is actually much easier to analyze then the purchasers rationale (the reason is there are non-economic issues involved). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 20:06:54 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:06:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: in praise of gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > Nothing like a good across the board generalization, huh Jim? Actually it isn't 'across the board', there is a bail out clause. > Who was she? It's nice to see you're not bitter ;-/ No particular one, let's just say that 20 years ago when I was a lot younger and sillier I did some extensive social experimentation. And no bitterness at all; just clear rational observation (it's also based on the biology but that's a seperate and less fun issue). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 20:08:19 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:08:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: update.565 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:53:42 -0500 (EST) From: AIP listserver To: physnews-mailing at aip.org Subject: update.565 PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 565 November 14, 2001 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James Riordon QUANTUM ACOUSTICS. The flatland world of electrons [SSZ: Text deleted] SINGING LIKE A CANARY requires little thought, but simple actions, to yield complex vocal physics, researchers have found, yielding potential insights into how humans generate speech sounds. Human speech and the songs of many bird species share a central similarity: the skills are not present at birth, but are only learned through early-life experiences. To determine how brain activity leads to the production of sound, scientists strive to understand how much of the sound comes from complicated instructions from the brain and how much comes from complex physics of vocal organs. Now, a US-Argentina research collaboration (Gabriel Mindlin, University of Buenos Aires, Gabriel at birkhoff.df.uba.ar) has designed a simple physical model that accurately reproduces notes of a canary song. The researchers modeled the canary's vocal organ, called the syrinx. According to previous experimental evidence, the syrinx generates sound through vibrations of its labial "folds"---flaps of tissue which open and close the air passage between the throat and the lungs. In their model, the researchers make the key assumption that these labial folds behave like a simple spring, moving back and forth to change the size of the air passage. They further assume that a canary controls its vocalizations through two actions: changing the pressure of the air from the lungs and using muscles to modify the stiffness of the folds. By varying these two parameters, the researchers found that the spring-like labia could produce faithful recreations of three canary notes. Therefore, simple changes to a basic system, rather than sophisticated instructions from the brain, can reproduce the rich, complex vocal physics which give rise to complicated sounds. (Gardner et al., Physical Review Letters, 12 November 2001) THE FEMTOSECOND DELAY IN THE ADVENT OF collective [SSZ: Text deleted] From measl at mfn.org Mon Nov 26 20:08:42 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:08:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > You misrepresent, governments don't (in general) make 'arbitrary > prohibitions'. What, pray tell, governments have you been studying? While I will agree that it is not the "job" of government to make arbitrary prohibitions, it _is_ within their *nature*. Furthermore, all groups which can be said to be acting in a government-like manner, i.e., in a control state, tend to devolve into this behaviour very quickly. I would go as far as to hypothesize that formalized government may well be a group-agreed "scapegoat" [agent] for this behaviour. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From faustine at lokmail.net Mon Nov 26 19:14:22 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:14:22 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality Message-ID: <200111270314.WAA08874@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2958 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 20:16:11 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:16:11 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | European Space Agency Developing GPS Rival Message-ID: <3C03138B.5BC6C8CE@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/27/009214.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 20:20:11 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:20:11 -0600 Subject: The Register - Kevin Spacey loses pivotal cybersquatting court case (Good!) Message-ID: <3C03147B.4F7000D4@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/23030.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 20:23:22 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:23:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > > > You misrepresent, governments don't (in general) make 'arbitrary > > prohibitions'. > > What, pray tell, governments have you been studying? A bunch, something like 5000 years of recorded history. Please demonstrate a government that in general make 'arbitrary decision'. Not that doesn't mean decisions you don't like, or reasons you don't like. Just plain simple arbitrary decisions. > While I will agree that it is not the "job" of government to make arbitrary > prohibitions, it _is_ within their *nature*. A governments job is to do whatever it's chartered to do. If it works it lasts longer, if it fails it doesn't last as long. > Furthermore, all groups which can be said to > be acting in a government-like manner, i.e., in a control state, tend to > devolve into this behaviour very quickly. People. > I would go as far as to hypothesize that formalized government may well be > a group-agreed "scapegoat" [agent] for this behaviour. You're free to hypothesize to your hearts and brains content. Fortunately a hypothesis is worthless until it's tested. Where's your data? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mattd at useoz.com Mon Nov 26 03:44:45 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:44:45 +1100 Subject: Anonymizing Scam Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011126222439.00a4b9b0@pop.useoz.com> In defence of john,Its only reasonable to accuse anyone and everyone at anytime of being an agent.Housekeeping chore. Crypto is becoming a totally redundant backwater in a world where people act like cryptoanarchy won. "We dont need no stinkin crypto! We're gonna take over the world, we're gonna do it early enough to knock off for happy hour." From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Mon Nov 26 23:00:05 2001 From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:00:05 -0800 Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E3655A4@MISSERVER> -----Original Message----- From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:13 PM To: cypherpunks at lne.com Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing. I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.) The mathematical side of most encryption is vastly stronger than the "crypto hygiene" side. There's a reason "code rooms" and "crypto shacks" on military ships and bases have lots of hoops to jump through, with locked boxes, double-keyed switches, controlled access, etc. Most users of PGP take no steps to secure key materials. (I plead guilty, too.) Most of us are used to immediate access, and we want crypto integrated with our mail. The notion of going to a locked safe, taking out the laptop or removable hard drive, ensuring an "air gap" between the decoding system and the Net, and checking for keyloggers and hostile code, and so on, is foreign to most of us. The "dongle" idea (e.g., Dallas Semiconductor buttons, etc.) has been around for a long time. Here's a new twist: the Apple iPod music player. I just got one. A 4.6 GB hard disk (Toshiba 1.8"). Hooks up via Firewire/IEEE 1394, with the link recharging the battery and auto-linking. The disk can also be mounted as a standard Firewire disk. Meaning, it could be used to store key material and even be used for PGP scratch operations. The increased security comes from its small size (easy to lock up) and because I usually have it with me when I am away from home. This makes "sneak and peek" searches and plants of malicious code less useful. Not a complete solution. Crypto hygiene and all. -----End Original Message----- An even better solution: a USB compact flash card reader. $30 at CompUSA or other fine electronics retailers, and $20 or less for a 16 MB compact flash card. This way more space than any normal person is going to need for PGP keyrings, with enough room left for your randseed file and other stuff like that, and at a price ($50 or so) that most anyone can afford. It is also transportable from computer to computer, so you could use it sneakernet style if you wanted to, especially if you get more/larger cards. 256MB cards are available for about $200, and a 1GB Microdrive runs around $400. Either of these could be carried in various orifices in extreme circumstances. :-) From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 26 20:11:52 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:11:52 -0500 Subject: Cattle Herding... (was Re: in praise of gold) In-Reply-To: <3C027A03.19969.C27924@localhost> References: <3C027A03.19969.C27924@localhost> Message-ID: At 5:21 PM -0800 on 11/26/01, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > But if I was an Etruscan, they > would've taken my whole cow! Actually, if you were an Etruscan, between spouse-swapping :-), you would have created a bearer instrument, clay, metal, whatever, like *they* eventually did. So, too, did various Mesopotamians, and before anyone else, including the Chinese. (cf. "A History of Money", by Davies). In the meantime, livestock work quite well in small agrarian groups, as your average Masai (or Proto-Indo-European, or proto-Texan, for that matter...), might have told you. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From sule_adamu at hotmail.com Mon Nov 26 15:16:21 2001 From: sule_adamu at hotmail.com (Sule Adamu) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:16:21 +0000 Subject: URGENT PROPOSAL Message-ID: FROM THE OFFICE OF ENGR.SULE ADAMU. FEDERAL MINISTRY OF WORKS AND HOUSING FEDERAL SECRETARIAT OFFICE COMPLEX FALOMO, IKOYO-LAGOS. . Dear Friend, INVESTMENT AND BUSINESS PROPOSAL First, I must solicit your strictest confidence in this transaction, this is by virtue of it's nature as being utterly confidential and top secret as you were introduced to me in confidence through the Nigeria Chamber of Commerce and Industries Foreign Trade Division. We are top officials from the Federal Ministry of Works and Housing, (FMW&H), Federal Ministry of Finance and the Presidency, making up the Contract Review Panel(CRP) set up by the Federal Government of Nigeria to review contracts awarded by the past military administration. In the course of our work on the CRP, we discovered this fund which resulted from grossly over - invoiced contracts which were executed for the FMW&H during the last administration.The companies that executed the contracts have been duly paid and the contracts commissioned leaving the sum of US$21.4 Million floating in the escrow account of the Central Bank of Nigeria ready for payment. I have therefore been mandated as a matter of trust by my colleagues in the panel to look for an overseas partner to whom we could transfer the sum of US$21.4 Million legally subcontracting the entitlement to your company. This is bearing in mind that our civil service code of conduct forbids us from owning foreign companies or operating foreign accounts while in government service, hence the need for an overseas partner. We have agreed that the funds will be shared thus after it has been paid into your account. (1) 30% of the money will go to you for acting as the beneficiary of the fund. (2) 10% has been set aside as an abstract projection for reimbursement to both parties for incidental expences that may be incurred in the course of the transaction. (3) 60% to us the government officials (with which we intend to commence an importation business in conjunction with you) All logistics are in place and all modalities worked out for the smooth conclusion of the transaction within ten to fourteen days of commencement after receipt of the following information; your company name, address, company's details & activities, telephone & fax numbers. These information will enable us make the applications and lodge claims to the concerned ministries & agencies in favour of your company and it is pertinent to state here that this transaction is entirely based on trust as the solar bank draft or certified cheque drawable in any of the Central Bank of Nigeria correspondent bankers around the world is going to be made in your name. Please acknowledge the reciept of this letter using the above email address to reply me. Yours faithfully, Engr.Sule Adamu. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From sule_adamu at hotmail.com Mon Nov 26 15:17:30 2001 From: sule_adamu at hotmail.com (Sule Adamu) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:17:30 +0000 Subject: URGENT PROPOSAL Message-ID: FROM THE OFFICE OF ENGR.SULE ADAMU. FEDERAL MINISTRY OF WORKS AND HOUSING FEDERAL SECRETARIAT OFFICE COMPLEX FALOMO, IKOYO-LAGOS. . Dear Friend, INVESTMENT AND BUSINESS PROPOSAL First, I must solicit your strictest confidence in this transaction, this is by virtue of it's nature as being utterly confidential and top secret as you were introduced to me in confidence through the Nigeria Chamber of Commerce and Industries Foreign Trade Division. We are top officials from the Federal Ministry of Works and Housing, (FMW&H), Federal Ministry of Finance and the Presidency, making up the Contract Review Panel(CRP) set up by the Federal Government of Nigeria to review contracts awarded by the past military administration. In the course of our work on the CRP, we discovered this fund which resulted from grossly over - invoiced contracts which were executed for the FMW&H during the last administration.The companies that executed the contracts have been duly paid and the contracts commissioned leaving the sum of US$21.4 Million floating in the escrow account of the Central Bank of Nigeria ready for payment. I have therefore been mandated as a matter of trust by my colleagues in the panel to look for an overseas partner to whom we could transfer the sum of US$21.4 Million legally subcontracting the entitlement to your company. This is bearing in mind that our civil service code of conduct forbids us from owning foreign companies or operating foreign accounts while in government service, hence the need for an overseas partner. We have agreed that the funds will be shared thus after it has been paid into your account. (1) 30% of the money will go to you for acting as the beneficiary of the fund. (2) 10% has been set aside as an abstract projection for reimbursement to both parties for incidental expences that may be incurred in the course of the transaction. (3) 60% to us the government officials (with which we intend to commence an importation business in conjunction with you) All logistics are in place and all modalities worked out for the smooth conclusion of the transaction within ten to fourteen days of commencement after receipt of the following information; your company name, address, company's details & activities, telephone & fax numbers. These information will enable us make the applications and lodge claims to the concerned ministries & agencies in favour of your company and it is pertinent to state here that this transaction is entirely based on trust as the solar bank draft or certified cheque drawable in any of the Central Bank of Nigeria correspondent bankers around the world is going to be made in your name. Please acknowledge the reciept of this letter using the above email address to reply me. Yours faithfully, Engr.Sule Adamu. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From CrushMaster at crushlink.com Mon Nov 26 15:29:20 2001 From: CrushMaster at crushlink.com (CrushMaster at crushlink.com) Date: 26 Nov 2001 23:29:20 -0000 Subject: CrushLink > Get The Last Hint for Autumn! Message-ID: <20011126232920.7435.qmail@web5.crushlink.com> Hello Joe, Want the last hint for Autumn? Get the Autumm Hint! GO TO: http://www.CrushLink.com/autumnhint.php3 Have fun! Sincerely, The Crush Master --- PS. We thought you'd like this opportunity since you're a CrushLink user; you can block further messages @ http://www.CrushLink.com/block.php3 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mattd at useoz.com Mon Nov 26 04:58:10 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:58:10 +1100 Subject: Declans testimony;Clone me! Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011126234756.009d41f0@pop.useoz.com> As an entertainment journalist with a disability I was interested in dec whittingtons road to london. Unfortunately as Ive been 80% incapacitated with schizophrenia since 1981 and prescribed stelazine and largactal on occasion that may have led to tardive dyskenesia,I DONT RECALL,what was it again? "You could create a lottery. A lottery whose payoff was a reward to the person who came closest to predicting the time of death of a given government official." james dalton bell.International patriot and global revolutionary hero. From measl at mfn.org Mon Nov 26 22:05:16 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 00:05:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sixpack Encryption Email client In-Reply-To: <20011126174330.A28241@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Eric Murray wrote: > On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 05:12:38PM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > > I gave a little bit of thought about what an encrypted email client > > should look like for joe sixpack to use. Here's how the DEFAULT > > behavior would work: > > > > When you install the software, it generates a public-private key > > pair. It saves your private key right there on your hard disk > > unencrypted, no tricky passphrase to remember. It then uploads > > your private key to some central server. > > you meant uploads your public key to some central server. Actually, this being Joe Sixpack, I believe "private key" was correct - gotta make sure he can "recover" it after he loses it ;-) -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Mon Nov 26 21:17:33 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 00:17:33 -0500 Subject: Anonymizing Scam In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 07:06:59PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011127001733.A30587@cluebot.com> Perhaps Lance meant: "It seems a hypocritical position for *any* cypherpunk to take." -Declan On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 07:06:59PM -0800, Tim May wrote, quoting Lance: > > "It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to > take." > > > Assuming that John Young speaks for "Cyphepunks" is bizarre. > > > --Tim May > "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any > member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to > others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient > warrant." --John Stuart Mill From measl at mfn.org Mon Nov 26 22:21:40 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 00:21:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anthrax Theatre OnLine Message-ID: http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/ -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Nov 26 22:25:49 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 00:25:49 -0600 Subject: MATT DRUDGE // DRUDGE REPORT 2000 - DOJ papers show terrorist hunt Message-ID: <3C0331ED.8C5AAFF2@ssz.com> http://www.drudgereport.com/flash5.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From goofycatz at excite.com Tue Nov 27 00:46:53 2001 From: goofycatz at excite.com (Udaas Pankhi) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 00:46:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: e mail bombs Message-ID: <23676387.1006850813585.JavaMail.imail@roary.excite.com> hello all anybody out there ready to help a lonely young pretty lady to send some email bombs to her finace's mistress.please be a gentleman reply back in yes i will. luv kissess xxxx lonely heart ______________________________________________________________________________ Send a friend your Buddy Card and stay in contact always with Excite Messenger http://messenger.excite.com From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 27 01:10:15 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 01:10:15 -0800 Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions In-Reply-To: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E3655A4@MISSERVER> Message-ID: <9215A9B2-E316-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net> On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 11:00 PM, Jonathan Wienke wrote: ...my entire post snipped.... ...his comments at bottom snipped... Jonathan, could you please not include the entire post and then "bottom post" (add comments at bottom)? Bandwidth may be getting cheaper, but it remains the best practice to include enough of the original post to establish context, but no more. Also, your post has MIME cruft. Thank you. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 27 01:36:38 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 01:36:38 -0800 Subject: Cat Herding... (was Re: in praise of gold) In-Reply-To: <3C027A03.19969.C27924@localhost> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011127013305.03366a60@idiom.com> >Cows might have served well as currency for primitives like the >Etruscans, but can you imagine using them today? I took >a bus this morning, the fair was 1.10 and I only had paper money >so they ripped me off 90 cents. But if I was an Etruscan, they >would've taken my whole cow! More likely the "fare" was 1.10, but whatever :-) There's a nice changemaking application for the Palm Pilot that lets you input the amount of money you want to pay somebody and the size of payment you can make, e.g. $1.10 and $5. It splits a circle into appropriately sized pie slices, you spin the dial, and either pay or don't pay. Of course, getting a bus company to trust your Palm Pilot not to be running a rigged version may be tougher than getting your mathematically inclined friends to accept it :-) From gnu at toad.com Tue Nov 27 02:04:44 2001 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 02:04:44 -0800 Subject: cypherpunks@toad.com is going away Message-ID: The cypherpunks list degenerated a long time ago to the point where I have no idea why more than 500 people are still receiving it every day. As part of cleaning up the email system on toad.com, I plan to shut down the cypherpunks-unedited list, which receives all the traffic sent to cypherpunks at toad.com, within the next week or two. I suggest that anyone who wants to talk or listen about encryption should send mail to: cryptography-request at wasabisystems.com with a one-line plain text message saying "subscribe". This will begin the process of subscribing them to the Cryptography mailing list, which is edited to remove irrelevant postings and to keep the volume down and the discussion focused. (I tried to do this with the cypherpunks list some years ago, but was shouted down by people who complained of "censorship". So I just left it unedited, with the expectable result that serious discussions deserted it.) If you were subscribed to the cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com list because you like to collect spam, talk with me personally and I'll see if I can help you. I have a large collection :-). The old "cypherpunks-announce" list was superseded many months ago by "meetingpunks at cryptorights.org". Cypherpunks-announce is no longer in existence. There remains a single encryption-related mailing list on toad.com, "coderpunks" which is for people who write code. John Gilmore --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From gnu at toad.com Tue Nov 27 02:04:44 2001 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 02:04:44 -0800 Subject: cypherpunks@toad.com is going away Message-ID: <200111271004.CAA08212@toad.com> The cypherpunks list degenerated a long time ago to the point where I have no idea why more than 500 people are still receiving it every day. As part of cleaning up the email system on toad.com, I plan to shut down the cypherpunks-unedited list, which receives all the traffic sent to cypherpunks at toad.com, within the next week or two. I suggest that anyone who wants to talk or listen about encryption should send mail to: cryptography-request at wasabisystems.com with a one-line plain text message saying "subscribe". This will begin the process of subscribing them to the Cryptography mailing list, which is edited to remove irrelevant postings and to keep the volume down and the discussion focused. (I tried to do this with the cypherpunks list some years ago, but was shouted down by people who complained of "censorship". So I just left it unedited, with the expectable result that serious discussions deserted it.) If you were subscribed to the cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com list because you like to collect spam, talk with me personally and I'll see if I can help you. I have a large collection :-). The old "cypherpunks-announce" list was superseded many months ago by "meetingpunks at cryptorights.org". Cypherpunks-announce is no longer in existence. There remains a single encryption-related mailing list on toad.com, "coderpunks" which is for people who write code. John Gilmore --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu Mon Nov 26 18:43:11 2001 From: daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) Date: 27 Nov 2001 02:43:11 GMT Subject: HDCP break and DMCA References: <4d3ef99b0c5e207436abe69882310211@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: <9tuujv$b1r$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous wrote: >Why, then, did you go ahead with publication? I believe publishing is important for the advancement of the field. If noone publishes, how will we learn from our mistakes? How will people learn of the risks? Fortunately, we are in a privileged position. The university has been supportive of our work, which has made it easier to publish on a limited basis despite the risks. However, if I knew when we started this project what I know now, I would not have initiated this research: I would have spent my time on some other important problem without the legal overhead and risks. In the future, you can bet that I won't be working on copy protection again, not if the situation stays like this. From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Mon Nov 26 18:24:30 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 03:24:30 +0100 Subject: Anonymizing Scam Message-ID: The following message by Lance Cottrell responding to John Young's accusations was sent to the cypherpunks list but apparently never appeared here. ======================================================================== From mattd at useoz.com Mon Nov 26 11:33:47 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:33:47 +1100 Subject: Declans testimony;Clone me!, Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011127062905.00a45b00@pop.useoz.com> Hey measals,you shouldnt be called as a witless now the drumhead courts have got the nod.Living in amerikkka getting you down? "Defenders of the US Constitution and the common law from which it grew are being classified on the same level as the bottom-feeding Skinheads, Nazis and the KKK. " From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 27 04:46:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:46:52 -0600 Subject: The Register - US assumes global cyber-police authority Message-ID: <3C038B3C.61C1F74A@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/23036.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jya at pipeline.com Tue Nov 27 06:47:54 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:47:54 -0800 Subject: Anonymizing Scam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are a variety of ways to anonymize surfing and email besides anonymizer services and remailers. Government agencies likely use all these. Reasons for the agencies to use anonymizers and remailers is to learn how they work and to influence operators by purchases, complaints and praise, and to spit in the soup, that is, to raise doubts about the services promises of confidentiality. The same reasons apply for subscribing to this list, for cultivating informants, for spoofing identities, for creating dissension among dissenters, for panicking the populace, for promising impossible assurance. Criticism of anonymizers and remailers and this list is a healthy as criticizing any reputable, and disreputable, private or publice means of communication. Fending off criticism by saying past performance and reputation deserves trust is a hoot and is also a hackneyed reply of someone who is concealing betrayal, or to put it more politely, has not yet learned how to earn trust continuously rather than bank it for unearned profit. Untested trust is no trust at all. And those who most often promise trust are not to be trusted, whether highly reputable individual, government of the free world, or very best friend. Paranoia is no defense against being suckered any more than being a hermit, and believing you are a trusted insider of a trustworthy group is suckerdom par excellance. Dropping your guard: don't. Especially with those of impeccable reputation. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 27 06:52:04 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:52:04 -0800 Subject: Cattle Herding... (was Re: in praise of gold) In-Reply-To: <3C027A03.19969.C27924@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011127065204.007c89a0@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:21 PM 11/26/01 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > >Cows might have served well as currency for primitives like the >Etruscans, but can you imagine using them today? I took >a bus this morning, the fair was 1.10 and I only had paper money >so they ripped me off 90 cents. But if I was an Etruscan, they >would've taken my whole cow! You would have gotten a goat and two chickens in change. From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 27 04:53:57 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:53:57 -0600 Subject: Linux Today - Linux Journal: US Court says buyers can unbundle EULA-covered software. Message-ID: <3C038CE5.3228A926@ssz.com> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-11-27-006-20-NW-LL -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 27 04:56:53 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:56:53 -0600 Subject: phorum - General Linux - Government Criminalizes Programmers Message-ID: <3C038D95.B2F8491B@ssz.com> http://losc.internet.com//read.php?f=13&i=5505&t=5505 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 27 05:02:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 07:02:00 -0600 Subject: OSNews.com - Exploring the Future of Computing - unununium v0.3 "FRuSTRaTiON now available Message-ID: <3C038EC8.4343CAED@ssz.com> http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=334 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 27 07:16:36 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 07:16:36 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011127071636.007af100@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:42 PM 11/26/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >Reputation itself is a problem. Past behaviour (toward another) is not a >reasonable predictor of future behavior (toward myself). Yes but your past behavior towards this list *is* empirically a reasonable predictor of the value of your present and future posts. From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 27 06:28:21 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:28:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: cypherpunks@toad.com is going away In-Reply-To: <200111271004.CAA08212@toad.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, John Gilmore wrote: > As part of cleaning up the email system on toad.com, I plan to shut > down the cypherpunks-unedited list, which receives all the traffic > sent to cypherpunks at toad.com, within the next week or two. Rest in peace Toad. Thank you for all that Toad was John. > John Gilmore -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hakkin at sarin.com Tue Nov 27 08:44:17 2001 From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:44:17 -0800 Subject: Michigan Asks Arabs to Come for Questioning Message-ID: <3C03C2E1.1C6B3A47@sarin.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011127/ts/attack_usa_interviews_dc.html Report: Michigan Asks Arabs to Come for Questioning NEW YORK (Reuters) - Law enforcement officials in Detroit, seeking to interview hundreds of Middle Eastern men about the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, are trying to do so tactfully by sending them invitations, the New York Times reported on Tuesday. The newspaper's online edition said the anti-terrorist task force in the Detroit area would send letters to about 700 young Middle Eastern men who had come to the country on temporary visas in the last two years. About 5,000 such people are being sought for questioning nationwide. The Times quoted Jeffrey Collins, U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, home to the nation's largest concentration of Arab-Americans, as saying: ``The letters represent a conscious decision by our district to initiate contact with the people who will be interviewed in the manner that will be least intrusive.'' Lawyers, community groups and police chiefs have complained that the Justice Department (news - web sites)'s investigation into the attacks was singling out people out based on their religion or nationality and would be too time-consuming, the paper said. It said civil liberties advocates and Arab-American leaders believed the use of letters in Detroit was a positive step toward making the interview process more dignified, but were worried about the content of the questions and the process of compiling the list. Collins did not say what authorities would do about those who did not call, the newspaper said. It reported that federal authorities had asked that all interviews be conducted by Dec. 21. The Times said a Justice Department memo told local officials to check visitors' passports and visas; ask about visits to local landmarks and foreign countries; investigate sources of income, scientific expertise and access to weapons, including anthrax; and seek lists of phone numbers of friends and relatives. ``The individual should be asked if he is aware of anybody, including himself, who has received any training which could be applicable to terrorist activities,'' said the memorandum, whose contents were disclosed on Saturday in The Detroit Free Press. From newsletter at gamblerdepot.com Tue Nov 27 08:51:13 2001 From: newsletter at gamblerdepot.com (newsletter at gamblerdepot.com) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:51:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: $1000 In Free Cash From Online Casinos! Message-ID: <200111271651.fARGpDt92833@srv54.server4me.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 17265 bytes Desc: not available URL: From loki at anonymizer.com Tue Nov 27 09:04:12 2001 From: loki at anonymizer.com (Lance M. Cottrell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:04:12 -0800 Subject: Anonymizing Scam In-Reply-To: <20011127001733.A30587@cluebot.com> References: <20011127001733.A30587@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Yes indeed. I actually saw several similar statements from other people. The one from John Young seemed to have the widest distribution, so it was the one I replied to. -Lance At 12:17 AM -0500 11/27/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Perhaps Lance meant: "It seems a hypocritical position for *any* >cypherpunk to take." > >-Declan > > >On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 07:06:59PM -0800, Tim May wrote, quoting Lance: >> >> "It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to >> take." >> >> >> Assuming that John Young speaks for "Cyphepunks" is bizarre. >> >> >> --Tim May >> "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any >> member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to >> others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient >> warrant." --John Stuart Mill -- Lance M. Cottrell lcottrell at anonymizer.com Anonymizer, Inc. President Voice: (619) 725-3180 X304 Fax: (619) 725-3188 www.Anonymizer.com From annuaire at annuairefrancais.com Tue Nov 27 00:06:10 2001 From: annuaire at annuairefrancais.com (annuaire at annuairefrancais.com) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:06:10 +0100 Subject: Info : L'Annuaire Francais par Departement facilite vos recherches Message-ID: <200111270813.JAA12036@argyre.fr.uu.net> Bonjour, L'annuaire Francais Par departement http://www.annuairefrancais.com integre desormais un moteur de recherche pour affiner vos recherches sur le web. L'inscription reste gratuite et la validation toujours manuelle. L'adresse d'inscription est desormais http://inscrip.annuairefrancais.com Pour toutes suggestions contactez par mail : direction : laurent at annuairefrancais.com validation : validation at annuairefrancais.com publicite : publicite at annuairefrancais.com partenariat : partenariat at annuairefrancais.com INFORMATIONS : retrait de notre liste d'info : http://supressinfo.annuairefrancais.com (L'annuaire francais envoi 2 infos par an) L'annuaire Francais 119 Rue des Pyrenees 75020 PARIS +33 (0)1 43 67 00 74 From ericm at lne.com Tue Nov 27 09:24:48 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:24:48 -0800 Subject: cypherpunks@toad.com is going away In-Reply-To: <200111271004.CAA08212@toad.com>; from gnu@toad.com on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:04:44AM -0800 References: <200111271004.CAA08212@toad.com> Message-ID: <20011127092448.B708@slack.lne.com> On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:04:44AM -0800, John Gilmore wrote: > The cypherpunks list degenerated a long time ago to the point where I > have no idea why more than 500 people are still receiving it every > day. > > As part of cleaning up the email system on toad.com, I plan to shut > down the cypherpunks-unedited list, which receives all the traffic > sent to cypherpunks at toad.com, within the next week or two. > > I suggest that anyone who wants to talk or listen about encryption > should send mail to: > > cryptography-request at wasabisystems.com Cryptography is a moderated list that is fairly tightly focused on cryptography. It's a good list. However if you are interested in the political and soceital implications of cryptography (also traditional cypherpunks topics) then cryptography is not the right list. The cypherpunks list has moved to a distributed list run from a number of sites. Each site has a different policy-- some are wide open like cypherpunks-unedited at toad, some moderated, and some are unmoderated but filter out spam. The web page http://www.lne.com/cpunk/ explains the Cypherpunks distributed mailing list in more detail and lists each node their policies and subscription info. Eric From ericm at lne.com Tue Nov 27 09:34:48 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:34:48 -0800 Subject: [gnu@toad.com: cypherpunks@toad.com is going away] Message-ID: <20011127093448.A961@slack.lne.com> It's the end of an era. ----- Forwarded message from John Gilmore ----- From declan at well.com Tue Nov 27 07:57:34 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:57:34 -0500 Subject: Denning's Geo-crypto In-Reply-To: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:35:51AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20011127105734.A31238@cluebot.com> Some details from a 1996 paper: http://www.cs.georgetown.edu/~denning/infosec/Grounding.txt -Declan On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:35:51AM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > Curious. 4-5 years ago Denning and another associate (I > forget who, it's in the archives :-) tried to market an authentication > scheme which purported to authenticate the location of a remote > user using GPS. From bill at scannell.org Tue Nov 27 10:21:54 2001 From: bill at scannell.org (Bill Scannell) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:21:54 -0600 Subject: Waxing celebrities In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011128021059.00a22270@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: The fact that all four whore for the Kriminal Kult of Scientology has of course nothing to do with anything... Begin Fair Use quote of mattd aka mattd at useoz.com written on 27.11.01 09:15 : > What do tom cruise,jenna elfman,john travolta and kirsty alley need that > only we can supply? > > Talk about a 'sweet spot' for well armed paparazzi.They also fly a lot."Id > buy that for a dollar" > > "Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable > that we have to alter it every six months." > 777 --- 777 777 --- 777 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin From declan at well.com Tue Nov 27 09:42:48 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:42:48 -0500 Subject: FC: Bombastic conservative demands that DOJ censor usqueers.com Message-ID: The usqueers.com page in question: http://www.usqueers.com/commentary/die_soon.html Excerpt: >Ronald Reagan, ex-President, deserves to experience a horrible death soon, >and is getting what he deserves. We're listing him as wounded because the >way he is dying is horrible (Alzheimer's) and irreversible, even if he >isn't aware of it anymore, and not soon enough we will happily add him to >our Good Riddance! section. Attorney John B. Thompson, who wrote the letter to DOJ, has a fascinating history of, for instance, reportedly attacking CBS over what he viewed as threats the network's comedy show made on the life of George W. Bush: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3992e0b40d02.htm Thompson wrote a letter to FCC complaining about Howard Stern: http://www.cluebot.com/articles/01/09/14/2010224.shtml >a special tip-of-the-hat to [Thompson] who, in the face of the death of >thousands of Americans, has taken time out of his busy schedule to >petition the FCC to censor Howard Stern, whom he terms a 'child molestor' >and 'pornographer'. It's nice to know some people have their priorities >straight. I'm not sure why CNSNews.com would call Thompson a "prominent First Amendment lawyer." He seems to be a prominent 1A lawyer in much the same way that Louis Freeh was a prominent privacy advocate. In his email below, David Burt is talking about when the ACLU's Oregon affiliate (not the national ACLU) filed an amicus brief arguing that a federal judge close the Nuremberg anti-abortion site (http://www.politechbot.com/p-01860.html). -Declan --- From sunder at sunder.net Tue Nov 27 10:06:04 2001 From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:06:04 -0500 (est) Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions In-Reply-To: <72390FCA-E2DB-11D5-9F69-0050E439C473@got.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote: > On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 11:49 AM, Sunder wrote: > > > a. It may use your OS to hide the key capture log, so you > > won't be able to just watch files. Think of a kernel patch > > that removes all references to a specific file, not just > > sets it to be hidden. > > Yes, but this is probably beyond current and foreseeable attacks. I > don't dispute that all sorts of advanced attacks are possible, just that > the fixes this guy suggested are "much better than doing nothing." Sure, doing something is better than doing nothing, and it all boils down to your threat model, as usual. However, with the heightened 911 crap, it seems these guys will do nearly anything to get the bad guy -- I wouldn't put it past them to beat the shit out some one who just so happens to be of arab descent until they sign a confession. But one has to consider several factors in building a threat model including: Why do I want to encrypt my hard drive? Why do I want to encrypt my emails? How much attention am I attracting by starting to use PGP now versus pre 911? Can I communicate securely by means other than email? Of course the cypherpunk answer is you should always encrypt everything all the time, but if you haven't do so up until this point, is it worth getting probed by the Feds? Maybe it is if they have nothing on you or you expect them to have little reason for fucking with you. If you're of arabian descent, using PGP might just buy you a ticket to one of those fancy new fangled jails where they don't let you have reasonable access to a lawyer, a sweater, or much else among the company of the other 1100 or so suspected terror mongers. On the other hand, if you're a known cypherpunk and have used PGP in the past, this won't attract too much extra attention. >From what I've read in various articles the terror mongers didn't use the internet for much, just had face to face meetings, etc. So of course the use of spyware bugs and carnivore is simply an opportunistic grab at power. But so were the Jim Bell and Toto arrests. The question isn't what have you or I or Joe Sixpack to hide as much as what do the Feds think you have to hide, and is it worth it to attract their attention. If you're willing to attract their attention, do you have the technical means to thawart and detect their intrusion, do you have the legal (and by implication money to buy legal) means, etc. The technical stuff is fairly easy if you think it through, but difficult/expensive to implement well. Find all the holes and close them, and should they use black bag ops, set up ways to detect them. The legal means have now changed. > Even _secure_ OSes (KeyCOS, for example) are vulnerable to attacks > when physical access is gained...doesn't make it easy, though. Absolutely. You can close most of the holes. You can make the ones you can't close harder to use by alarming them and watching them alarms closely. > > 4. If you live in a crowded area, your iPod can be lifted off you > > in a false mugging, or break in, pick pocketting while you're at a > > restaurant, movie, etc. > > This implies a level of surveillance/commitment beyond what most FBI > attacks are at. Doubtful. They've install key catcher hardware in lots of computers to get spies and mobsters before. The treasury guys installled a gps tracker in Jim Bell's car, etc. All these imply black bag jobs are not beyond them at all. > More importantly, theft of my iPod would then trigger certain actions. > Cancelling my existing key and generation of a new one. Sure, but that would be useless for past communications. If they've copied your emails before, and now have the key, they have what you wrote and what you've read. They don't have future writings, but once they've broken in to your machine, you can assume they own it. Depending on how the bug is installed, simply wiping it might not be enough. > All of these kinds of "they've got your hardware" attacks are present > with nearly all systems. All require more work than the simple insertion > of a keystroke logger involves. It's all measures and countermeasures. Yup. Again, back to the threat model. :) From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Nov 27 05:13:32 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:13:32 +0000 Subject: Cattle Herding... (was Re: in praise of gold) References: <3C027A03.19969.C27924@localhost> Message-ID: <3C03917C.56309D6D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > Cows might have served well as currency for primitives like the > Etruscans, but can you imagine using them today? I took > a bus this morning, the fair was 1.10 and I only had paper money > so they ripped me off 90 cents. But if I was an Etruscan, they > would've taken my whole cow! As far as I know people who use cows (or whatever) like this make it work by running up all sorts of debts with each other. So it looks to strangers as if they are being all nice and friendly and doing favours, but of course A knows that B owes so many cows or goats or pots of beer next time someone from village X marries someone from village Y, while B can call in at C's village any time they want and eat prawns, as long as D has by then given some of those special beads made out of abalone shell to F... and so on. Great fun & entirely rendered obsolete by the invention of double-entry book-keeping. If our ancestors lived like that for a long while then maybe we are evolved to remember those reputation tensors Tim mentioned. We all, quite naturally, keep track of who owes what to who & whether they are likely to pay up. So the tribe benefits from old folks who remember exactly who brought what to which party years ago. Human beings as natural book-keepers. It is a good a sociobiological Just So Story and any other. Of course we do stuff like that informally. My sister & her husband owe me some money from when I helped them buy a car. But I, quite separately, owe him about twenty quid I borrowed to buy some beers - but then he owes me a round or two next time we are in a pub - the debts aren't commensurable (even though two of them are denominated in pounds sterling). The "round" is a powerfully symbolic system of exchange and reputation amongst British men (women sometimes join in, as do Irish & Australians, though they don't *quite* get it). As the Gikuyu proverb says "goats are not bananas". Try searching the web for "Onka's big Moka" (you have to avoid references to a band called Toploader that made an album with that title) It was an all-time classic TV program about some guys in Papua who had to successfully bring off a big party before the rainy season, so that they could hand over loads of pigs to their rivals. Like a potlach, with the added complication that, while you have the pigs, they have to eat - pig-capital has negative interest rates. But it wasn't just pigs... Ken From declan at well.com Tue Nov 27 10:38:51 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:38:51 -0500 Subject: Bombastic conservative demands that DOJ censor usqueers.com Message-ID: <20011127133851.A4912@cluebot.com> I suppose if some of the more vocal cypherpunks subscribers were to forward their messages to Mr. John B. Thompson, he might be persuaded to denounce this list in a letter to Ashcroft too. ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From HotGuyNDal55830 at qvy.com Tue Nov 27 10:41:27 2001 From: HotGuyNDal55830 at qvy.com (HotGuyNDal55830 at qvy.com) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:41:27 -0500 Subject: amateur house wives strutting their stuff on their live webcamt95739 Message-ID: <200111271841.NAA11113@formula-uno.com> Questo messaggio ti e' stato inviato da (HotGuyNDal55830 at qvy.com) message: 
hey, wanna see pictures of me and my sexy friends?  then check out my site @ http://www.nocostporn.net/ifriends/heather.html/    1


w6k9w

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Nov 27 11:01:12 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:01:12 -0500 (est)
Subject: The Crypto Winter 
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


You're confused.  

The ability of individuals acting in their own interests does not deny the
ability of a collection of those same individuals from working towards
mutual benefits.  Nor does it deny others who are not acting in those same
interest from benefiting from their work.

What objectivists object to is being bent over to whim or "needs" of
others.  You can't reward need.  You can reward work.


To take this to the other list that you're on (psychohistory), go and find
yourself this book: Emergence: The Connected Lives of Ants, Brains,
Cities, and Software by Steven Johnson.  Amazon should have it.

It shows (as an example) that individual ants don't act on a central
command.  There is no ant government, no ant leadership.  Rather ants work
by a very simple set of rules that are individual rules, but their actions
form a huge collective effort.  Unlike socialism or communism (in practice
not in theory) there is no need for central authority.

The same is true according to this book of slime mold cells, who work as
individuals, however at certain points, they merge to become one single
being.

While I'm not comparing humans to ants, nor to slime mold cells -- don't
even attempt to make that connection, the lesson here for you to learn is
that individual action performed in the self interest of the individual,
when integrated over a large population shows emergent behavior, and is
beneficial to most members of the group.

You don't need socialism, communism, fascism or religion in order to help
others out.  The drives to survival and self preservation allow us humans
to act together in common interests.  As is does ants, most types of bees
(termite bees for example aren't social.), etc.


For example, mailing lists that are nothing more than a forum for the
exchange of ideas allow for positive communal results.  I would point to
something like bugtraq for example.  In terms of security, there's nothing
out there that has done more to help users of buggy software by simply
reporting that in fact Company M's product W, contains bug X.

Another example: The NTLK (Newton Talk Mailing LisT) provides a very good
forum for users of the killed off platform.  In fact, it has provided
excellent support to the point of the creation of new software that did
not exist when Apple did support it such as BackTalk (which allows Newts
to beam to Palms and vice versa), and ATA card drives allowing Newton
owners access to cheaper PCMCIA cards.

In each of these mailing lists, each actor runs their own algorithm and is
interested in self gain, yet, by having common goals, even without a
central authority, they are able to achieve goals that as individuals
they would not be to.


When someone makes up their mind to take care of themselves and their
interests, they are not preventing another from doing the same.  

When someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to "hand over your
valuables, then bend over and grease up", that's "Freedom for me, none for
you."


When someone is minding their own business, working in the pursuit of
liberty and prosperity, they are saying "Freedom for me, and freedom for
you."

When someone says "You have to do as I say" others will say "fuck off"
When that someone pulls out a gun, it's no longer freedom for you and
freedom for me.  It's "I own you as long as I put a gun to your head and
you can't do shit about it if you can't fight back."

When someone says "Help me, I'm starving" that's not an order.  You are
free to chose to ignore or help that person.  If you chose to help them,
you did not deny them their freedoms.  If you chose to ignore them, you
also did not deny them their freedoms.


Back to the subject of ants.

I suppose you've never heard the parable of the ant and the grasshopper,
yes?  If you had, this would be far clearer to you why the communism or
socialism that you suggest doesn't work.

To paraphrase it: All spring and summer long, the ants worked hard and
harvested food.  Meanwhile the grasshopper played his fiddle and enjoyed
himself, but did nothing to secure his own future.  Then winter came.  
The ants had food and warmth because they worked all spring and summer
long.  The grasshopper however was starving and froze to death.


Should the grasshopper have been allowed to share in the ant's hard
work after doing nothing all spring and summer long?  If so, then why
should the ants have worked so hard just to allow the grasshopper to be a
burden on them?  If so, why should all the ants have to work?  Maybe they
can take the grasshopper's example, and they can be lazy and find some
other creature to mooch off of...  What happens when there is no one left
to do the work?

Or should the grasshopper have done as the ants?  

Assuming the ants said "Fuck off" Who is responsible for the grasshopper's
death?  The ants who didn't share their food?  Or is the grasshoper
responsible for his own failures.

Did the ants decide the grashopper's fate?  Or did the grasshopper decide
his own?  Did the ants force the grasshopper to not set up a nest for
himself away from the cold, or prevent him from collecting food?  Or did
he act on his own?

In terms of morals, why are in your view the ants evil and the lazy
grasshopper good?

Since the ants did not actively interefere with the grasshopper's day to
day modus operandi one way or another, why would you claim the ants are
morally responsible for the grasshopper's death?

Who decided that the grasshopper should not provide shelter and food
supplies for himself, but rather play all summer long?  Did anyone other
than the grasshopper prevent him from harvesting and planning for winter?


Now then, what's this about "freedom for me but not for three?"


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:
> 
> > At 09:19 PM 11/19/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > >C-A-C-L's would let people die from thirst before interfering in a 'free
> > >market'. Others would say screw the market and give that man a drink.
> > 
> > No, a libertarian would say "screw anyone who'd initiate force 
> > against me to make me to do this" and then make his own decision.
> 
> Hypocrite. In 'making your own decision' you in effect remove any moral or
> ehtical framework from your decision. In fact you are acting upon
> 'freedom for me, but not for thee'. Why? Because you have set yourself up
> as the decider of another fate. Your feelings about letting others make
> those sorts of decisions for you are clear.
> 
> Or do you hold that 'self-defence' applies only to libertarians?
> 
> No, the only solution in Faustines 'survival situation' is to create a
> neutral 3rd party that is responsible to all participants. It is not
> ethical, or workable, to allow each and all to go their own way.
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Nov 27 11:14:30 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:14:30 -0500 (est)
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > For many years some of us have argued strongly for "reputation" as a 
> > core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the 
> > phrase "reputation capital."
> 
> And for as many years many of us have seen that it's not as useful as it
> would first seem. The reality is that trust isn't transitive and as a
> result reputation isn't either.

Absolutely.  I may trust you, but I might not trust (or even know) your
best friend.
 
> > Reputation is an easily understandable concept which explains a lot 
> > about how imperfect protocols in the real world nevertheless "work." I 
> > won't go into what reputation is, even as defined by folks like us.
> 
> It may be 'easily understood', but it's also easily misunderstood (by
> many).

In what way?
 
> > But there are many aspects of reputation which lead to problems:
> 
> Reputation itself is a problem. Past behaviour (toward another) is not a
> reasonable predictor of future behavior (toward myself).

Yup, apparently there have been recent cases of high-rep sellers on ebay
who when ready to give up the ebay game put up auctions for high priced
items that they never deliver, effectively stealing the money.

It would be interesting to figure out an effective way to prevent
this.  Now ebay and things such as paypal, Visa/Master Card have measures
against this type of fraud, but they usually just eat the losses of the
bidder.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------





From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 27 14:25:48 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:25:48 -0800
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Inchoate pontificated:

> Fortunately it [state motor vehicle
> authorities creating a national
> identification system] will be found
> unconstitutional, states can't make
> treaties and such between themselves.

Gee, that'll be news to the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, the
Mid-America Regional Council and a plethora of other interstate compacts,
authorities and organizations.

(Where does he get this stuff?)


 S a n d y
_____________________________________________________________

If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed
by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority?

						--Inchoate

                           W         W
                           \*\     /*/
   The Road Kill Group     |*|     |*|
                          /*////|\\\\*\ |\-
                         (|||||||||||||\((x)\
                   -======-------------||---:>
                         (|||||||||||||/((x)/
                          \*\\\\|////*/ |/-
                           |*|     |*|
                           /*/     \*\
                           M         M




From frissell at panix.com  Tue Nov 27 11:29:56 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:29:56 -0500
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
Message-ID: <3C03E9B4.5F59BAFD@panix.com>


Americans and their Drivers Licenses.  There's something funny about
them.

**************
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32717-2001Nov2?language=printer

"States Devising Plan for High-Tech National Identification Cards

By Robert O'Harrow Jr.
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, November 3, 2001; Page A10

State motor vehicle authorities are working on a plan to create a
national identification system for individuals that would link all
driver databases and employ high-tech cards with a fingerprint, computer
chip or other unique identifier."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A53795-2001Oct25?language=printer

"4th Arrest in Probe of Hijacker ID Fraud Man Accused of Helping
Suspects in Sept. 11 Terror Attacks Exploit Va. Loophole

By Patricia Davis and Brooke A. Masters
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, October 26, 2001; Page B09

A fourth person was arrested and charged yesterday with helping the
Sept. 11 hijackers illegally obtain Virginia identification cards less
than five weeks before the terrorist attacks.

**************

Both civilians and officials seem to think that there is some magic
about a drivers license that would make it a good national ID and
requires that it be protected from misuse by unauthorized persons.

Apparently unknown to these worthies is the fact that terrorists,
criminals, or just plain folks can do anything they want to do without a
drivers license issued by a US state.

As surprising as it may seem, one can drive, rent cars, fly domestically
or internationally, get a job, start a business, rent accomodations,
open bank accounts, and do anything you like without a US drivers
license.

Holders of foreign drivers licenses can drive in the US.

Among the four million US expats are many native born US citizens who
have an absolute right to enter, live, and work in the US but who do not
*currently* even have a right to obtain a US drivers license since they
are not *resident* in the US.  Any US citizens who care to can
characterize themselves as being in this group.

A drivers license issued by a US state is no more than evidence of
identity.  It is not evidence of right to reside in the US, right to
work in the US, etc.  One must use other documents to establish right to
reside and right to work (if those documents are required).  One can use
other documents to establish identity.  Including most significantly a
passport (whether foreign or domestic).

With 300 million US border crossings by aliens annually, it is clear
that plenty of aliens are travelling around the country almost none of
whom have drivers liccenses issued by a US state.

I hope that a "new, improved, drivers license" takes some of the heat
off the National ID concept.

DCF




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 27 14:32:17 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:32:17 -0800
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Further follow-up:

http://www.panynj.gov/hisframe.HTM

"On April 30, 1921, The Port of New York Authority was established as the
first of its kind in the Western Hemisphere and the first interstate agency
created under a clause of the Constitution permitting compacts between
states. One area of jurisdiction was called the "Port District," a bistate
region of about 1,500 square miles centered on the Statue of Liberty. The
name was changed to The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey in 1972 to
identify more accurately our status as a bistate agency."

Looks as though Jimbo now needs a remedial Constitution-reading course...


 S a n d y

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Sandy Sandfort
> Sent: 27 November, 2001 14:26
> To: Jim Choate; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: RE: Drivers License as ID Card
>
>
> Inchoate pontificated:
>
> > Fortunately it [state motor vehicle
> > authorities creating a national
> > identification system] will be found
> > unconstitutional, states can't make
> > treaties and such between themselves.
>
> Gee, that'll be news to the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, the
> Mid-America Regional Council and a plethora of other interstate compacts,
> authorities and organizations.
>
> (Where does he get this stuff?)
>
>
>  S a n d y
> _____________________________________________________________
>
> If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed
> by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority?
>
> 						--Inchoate
>
>                            W         W
>                            \*\     /*/
>    The Road Kill Group     |*|     |*|
>                           /*////|\\\\*\ |\-
>                          (|||||||||||||\((x)\
>                    -======-------------||---:>
>                          (|||||||||||||/((x)/
>                           \*\\\\|////*/ |/-
>                            |*|     |*|
>                            /*/     \*\
>                            M         M




From mv at cdc.gov  Tue Nov 27 14:36:13 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:36:13 -0800
Subject: Why encrypt
Message-ID: <3C04155D.1506807A@cdc.gov>


At 01:06 PM 11/27/01 -0500, Sunder wrote:
>But one has to consider several factors in building a threat model
>including: Why do I want to encrypt my hard drive?  Why do I want to
>encrypt my emails?  How much attention am I attracting by starting to
use
>PGP now versus pre 911?  Can I communicate securely by means other than

>email?
>
>Of course the cypherpunk answer is you should always encrypt everything

>all the time, but if you haven't do so up until this point, is it worth

>getting probed by the Feds?  Maybe it is if they have nothing on
>you or you expect them to have little reason for fucking with you.

I have had  success with some populations
by pointing out that folks have been busted for their pr0n
collection by nosy computer-repairmen.  And when the
machine is down its too late to remove (wipe) or encrypt
the naughty bits.  Good argument for encrypted volumes.




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 27 14:39:11 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:39:11 -0800
Subject: History of Port Authority of New York and New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <3C0415A1.85A20894@ssz.com>
Message-ID: 


EXACTLY!

That's what the states will do with regard to standardizing drivers
licenses.  Which totally demolishes Jimbo's argument of
"unconstitutionality."  What a nitwit.

I'll graciously accept an Inchoate apology.


 S a n d y

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Jim Choate
> Sent: 27 November, 2001 14:37
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: History of Port Authority of New York and New Jersey
>
>
> What do you know, they did go through Congress just like the Constitution
> requires...
>
> http://www.panynj.gov/hismain.HTM
>
> --
>
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
>
>                                              Bumper Sticker
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 27 15:06:39 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:06:39 -0800
Subject: SURRENDER DOROTHY!
Message-ID: 


C'punks,

Just to put the final nail in the coffin, Inchoate wrote this:

> Fortunately it will be found unconstitutional,
> states can't make treaties and such between
> themselves.

Then when confronted with evidence that such agreements aren't
unconstitutional, backpedaled to this:

> What do you know, they did go through Congress
> just like the Constitution requires...

Then silence.

Of course, it takes courage to admit it when you are wrong, so no surprise
there.


 S a n d y




From CrushMaster at CrushLink.com  Tue Nov 27 07:19:32 2001
From: CrushMaster at CrushLink.com (CrushMaster at CrushLink.com)
Date: 27 Nov 2001 15:19:32 -0000
Subject: CrushLink > New Password
Message-ID: <20011127151932.18090.qmail@web3.crushlink.com>

Hello,

You may now use the password: fnetq6

To sign in to CrushLink, go to
http://www.CrushLink.com/listview.php3

To change your password, go to
http://www.CrushLink.com/passchange.php3

Sincerely,
The Crush Master
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From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 27 15:28:26 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:28:26 -0800
Subject: SURRENDER DOROTHY!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Jimbo really stretched on this one:

> As my original statement (which I thank
> you for providing) specifically says
> 'between themselves'.

But states DO make compacts 'BETWEEN THEMSELVES,' which is what Jimbo said
was unconstitutional.  The fact that they have congressional approval, does
not alter the nature of the agreement nor of the parties.  The "remedial
reading" ball is demonstrably and forcefully served back to Jimbo's court.
I await his next cowardly volley with amusement.  But unless he says
something a bit meatier than his foregoing thin gruel, I doubt I'll be
motivated to respond.  It's just no fun anymore; he's too easy.  :'D


 S a n d y




From cypherpunks at gurski.org  Tue Nov 27 15:51:56 2001
From: cypherpunks at gurski.org (Michael Gurski)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:51:56 -0800
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3C03E9B4.5F59BAFD@panix.com> 
Message-ID: <20011127155156.A6990@nanticoke.irvine.ca.us>

On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 04:13:23PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> > Americans and their Drivers Licenses.  There's something funny about
> > them.
> > 
> > **************
> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32717-2001Nov2?language=printer
> > 
> > "States Devising Plan for High-Tech National Identification Cards
> > 
> > By Robert O'Harrow Jr.
> > Washington Post Staff Writer
> > Saturday, November 3, 2001; Page A10
> > 
> > State motor vehicle authorities are working on a plan to create a
> > national identification system for individuals that would link all
> > driver databases and employ high-tech cards with a fingerprint, computer
> > chip or other unique identifier."
> 
> Fortunately it will be found unconstitutional, states can't make treaties
> and such between themselves.
> 
>      Section. 10.
[...]
>      No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of
>      Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into
>      any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign
>      Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such
>      imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

I guess it wouldn't be unconstitutional if Congress approves it...  Or
does this not count as an "Agreement or Compact with another State"?
Somehow it reads that way to me.

-- 
Michael A. Gurski             (opt. [firstname].)[lastname]@pobox.com
Hail Eris! -><- All Hail Discordia!  O-  http://www.pobox.com/~[lastname]
1024/39B5BADD  PGP:3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570
1024D/1166213E GPG: 628F 37A4 62AF 1475 45DB  AD81 ADC9 E606 1166 213E
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.
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From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Nov 27 13:00:11 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:00:11 -0500 (est)
Subject: The Crypto Winter
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Thomas Lyon Gideon wrote:
> 
> > The point about emergent behavior is excellently made.  A corollary that
> > occurs to me is that one of the prime motivators in the emergent quality of
> > human society may well be the pursuit of non-zero sum games.
> 
> Of course people want to take advantage of others. This realization is
> what is behind the CACL objection to 'government' (which after all is an
> emergent behaviour - ponder that one for a moment and your thrill may fall
> away quickly). Their failure is recognizing that the 'government' is
> itself an emergent behaviour (albeit an intentional one now - one can't
> really speak to how they first came about, it very well could have been
> very ant-like with respect to large family groups).

Um, I'm not sure I can follow Choatatian Prime logic here.  Where did
Thomas's posting state that "of course people want to take advantage of
others?"  Then again, it doesn't matter at all.

If your assumption is that all people take advantage of each other, then
it's still "Freedom for me, and Freedom for you" rewritten as "I'm free to
take advantage of you, you're free to take advantage of me."

No, government isn't an emergent behavior of individuals.  It's based on
leaders and followers in certain percentages.  There can be no leaders if
no one is willing to follow them.  But of course this isn't the
case.  Therefore there is some measure of consent on the part of the
followers, whether it was in the form of guns pointed at their heads, or
free choice.  However, once you read up on ants, you'll find, there is no
ant government at all.

I also fail to follow your Choatian-Prime logic that connects "of course
people want to take advantage of each other" to the emergence of
governments.

> 
> > This assumption is based on my reading of Robert Wright's _Non Zero_.  
> > I think Sunder hits this on the head as well when he goes off about how 
> > self interest does not necessarily harm others, that as humans we are not
> > typically bound by win-lose scenarios.  Rather some behavior may result in
> > poor or no gains on a societal scale and others may result in increased
> > benefits for all.
> 
> Actually it isn't a well made point at all. To compare programmed
> behaviour and biological caste systems to a bunch of humans with
> self-referential views is the worst case of begging the question. He's
> certainly made a hypothesis, no evidence has been forthcoming for it and
> there is a very large body that would argue against it.

What proof do you have that ants don't have self referential views, or
that humans don't have biological hard wired behaviors?  I in fact did not
make a hypothetis comparing humans to ants, I instead provided an example
where a central authority is not needed.  

The hypothesis is that individuals may act in their own self interest, and
still derrive benefits for the group by doing so.  There was no direct
comparison of ants and humans, and I in fact stated that you shouldn't
even attempt to do so.

> In addition, emergent behavior may or may not actually help the individual
> components of the population. 

It's very simple.  This is where evolution in action comes in.  If the
emergent behavior is harmful to the individuals, they will cease to
contribute to it, or cease to exist.  Therefore the rest of the following
paragraph is moot.

> Remember the concept of 'evolution'. To get
> the ants and bees we have now required a bunch of ants and bees which
> didn't survive because their programming didn't work. 


> It's also worth
> noting that the understanding we have of emergent systems are for
> reletively simple systems. 

Absolutely true.  However that does not in any way take away from my
original point.  Individuals acting in self interest in large groups can
benefit most of the group members, and possibly even outsiders.  You've
yet to come up with a logical counterpoint against this.

> Something that can't be said about any group of
> humans irrespective of size. 

But it can, and is very obvious that humans are social - that is that they
interact with other humans for mutual benefit, and that through this
interaction most members of said society will benefit.  Where hermits
living solitarily in caves will toil, societies that work together will
benefit one another - and do so without the need to enslave their members.

> This 'evolution' argument could actually be
> used against CACL theories because governments didn't always exist, at
> some point they emerged.

Evolution isn't emergence.  They're two distinct theories. They can work
together, just as you can have apples and orages in a fruit salad.  But
they're not the same thing.  However, governments started to exist as soon
as weapons did.
 
> Sunders comparison is fundamentaly flawed, the only thing he hit on the
> head was himself.

Confusing yourself with others again?  Must suck to be you.

> > In this light, seemingly altruistic behavior can be re-interpreted as
> > banking favors against future need.  One of Wright's better examples is the
> > practice in certain tribal societies of giving away excess food.  Usually
> > the food wouldn't keep long, anyway, and by helping a neighbor out today
> > help is usually secured against future need when a neighbor may be the one
> > with the excess.
> 
> Altruistism is cloaked self-interest. The only reason one helps another is
> because at some level it helps themselves (you can talk about % of genes
> passed to next generations, getting laid after the prom, or you can talk
> about helping another buy a car and getting rides as a result - makes no
> diff).

Absolutely correct.  See, you are agreeing with the theory.  Since
altrusim is self interest, everyone is free to help each other to their
own benefit.  I help you with something, you later return the favor with
something else.  Thus is born a contract.  I do X, in exchange you do Y.

Tim helps me with something, you help Tim with something, I help you with
something even out the debt, and thus the sum grows to be bigger than it's
parts, but all of the parts benefit.  I had a contract with Tim, you had a
contract with Tim, we can aggregate them.

So I say, "I'm looking out for my interests, you're free to do the same"
so does Tim, and so does Jim.  As a "society" all its members benefit.  
Say Joe comes along and begs for food.  We may help him get some food, but
we'd want something in return later on, thus another contract.  It's still
"Freedom for me and freedom for you."

Say Jeff comes along and puts a gun to our heads and demands all our
food.  At this point, it's "Freedom for Jeff, none for us."


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------





From faustine at lokmail.net  Tue Nov 27 13:03:18 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:03:18 -0500
Subject: Anonymizing Scam
Message-ID: <200111272103.QAA29053@mail.lokmail.net>

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From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Nov 27 13:12:40 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:12:40 -0500 (est)
Subject: The Crypto Winter
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Ah hem!  In non-choatian-prime logic, the following code returns the
text "they are different"


printf( "%s\n", 
	strcmp("non-zero sum games","people want to take advantage")==0
      	? "they are the same" : "they are different" );





----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > Um, I'm not sure I can follow Choatatian Prime logic here.  Where did
> > Thomas's posting state that "of course people want to take advantage of
> > others?"  Then again, it doesn't matter at all.
> 
> non-zero sum games.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 14:13:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:13:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
In-Reply-To: <3C03E9B4.5F59BAFD@panix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Americans and their Drivers Licenses.  There's something funny about
> them.
> 
> **************
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32717-2001Nov2?language=printer
> 
> "States Devising Plan for High-Tech National Identification Cards
> 
> By Robert O'Harrow Jr.
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> Saturday, November 3, 2001; Page A10
> 
> State motor vehicle authorities are working on a plan to create a
> national identification system for individuals that would link all
> driver databases and employ high-tech cards with a fingerprint, computer
> chip or other unique identifier."

Fortunately it will be found unconstitutional, states can't make treaties
and such between themselves.

     Section. 10.
     No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation;
     grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of
     Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in
     Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law,
     or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title
     of Nobility.

     No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any
     Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be
     absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the
     net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on
     Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the
     United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision
     and Controul of the Congress.

     No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of
     Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into
     any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign
     Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such
     imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 14:26:31 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:26:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Crypto Winter
In-Reply-To: <20011127170011.A5473@gideonfamily.org>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Thomas Lyon Gideon wrote:

> The point about emergent behavior is excellently made.  A corollary that
> occurs to me is that one of the prime motivators in the emergent quality of
> human society may well be the pursuit of non-zero sum games.

Of course people want to take advantage of others. This realization is
what is behind the CACL objection to 'government' (which after all is an
emergent behaviour - ponder that one for a moment and your thrill may fall
away quickly). Their failure is recognizing that the 'government' is
itself an emergent behaviour (albeit an intentional one now - one can't
really speak to how they first came about, it very well could have been
very ant-like with respect to large family groups).

> This assumption is based on my reading of Robert Wright's _Non Zero_.  
> I think Sunder hits this on the head as well when he goes off about how 
> self interest does not necessarily harm others, that as humans we are not
> typically bound by win-lose scenarios.  Rather some behavior may result in
> poor or no gains on a societal scale and others may result in increased
> benefits for all.

Actually it isn't a well made point at all. To compare programmed
behaviour and biological caste systems to a bunch of humans with
self-referential views is the worst case of begging the question. He's
certainly made a hypothesis, no evidence has been forthcoming for it and
there is a very large body that would argue against it.

In addition, emergent behavior may or may not actually help the individual
components of the population. Remember the concept of 'evolution'. To get
the ants and bees we have now required a bunch of ants and bees which
didn't survive because their programming didn't work. It's also worth
noting that the understanding we have of emergent systems are for
reletively simple systems. Something that can't be said about any group of
humans irrespective of size. This 'evolution' argument could actually be
used against CACL theories because governments didn't always exist, at
some point they emerged.

Sunders comparison is fundamentaly flawed, the only thing he hit on the
head was himself.

> In this light, seemingly altruistic behavior can be re-interpreted as
> banking favors against future need.  One of Wright's better examples is the
> practice in certain tribal societies of giving away excess food.  Usually
> the food wouldn't keep long, anyway, and by helping a neighbor out today
> help is usually secured against future need when a neighbor may be the one
> with the excess.

Altruistism is cloaked self-interest. The only reason one helps another is
because at some level it helps themselves (you can talk about % of genes
passed to next generations, getting laid after the prom, or you can talk
about helping another buy a car and getting rides as a result - makes no
diff).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Nov 26 21:30:09 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:30:09 +1100
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011127161512.00a50650@pop.useoz.com>


Faustine wrote...
."..good old boring long-faced church-every-Sunday solid-citizen Robert P. 
Hanssen. If his FBI colleagues had been asked to rate him by your above 
criteria, he probably would have been in the high 200s all across the 
board. And maybe deservedly so. But since those factors weren't in any way, 
shape, or form relevant to the fact that he was also the kind of person who 
could sell out his country for the sheer pleasure of the game of it, he got 
away with murder for years until he got careless and his shitty tradecraft 
finally caught up with him."

His tradecraft was rather good I thought,especially in not trusting his 
handlers with direct contact.Possibly he was done in by sex addiction 
common to many repressed septic tanks(yanks) W.Reichs,mass psychology of 
facism describes syndrome.Also wanted on some level to get caught,much like 
Ted special K.(and USAma bin laden?)

Did he really get away with murder? Feh.Aldrich ames did and his rep 
survived polygraphs so reputations are bollocks unless panocoptincons and 
regular stings/tests are done.Hanssen didnt tell the russkies anything they 
couldnt have worked out them selves.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 14:33:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:33:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Inchoate pontificated:
> 
> > Fortunately it [state motor vehicle
> > authorities creating a national
> > identification system] will be found
> > unconstitutional, states can't make
> > treaties and such between themselves.
> 
> Gee, that'll be news to the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, the
> Mid-America Regional Council and a plethora of other interstate compacts,
> authorities and organizations.

It certainly will at some point if they didn't get Congressional
permission.

I get it from actually reading the Constitution. You might try it
sometime.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 14:37:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:37:21 -0600
Subject: History of Port Authority of New York and New Jersey
Message-ID: <3C0415A1.85A20894@ssz.com>


What do you know, they did go through Congress just like the Constitution
requires...

http://www.panynj.gov/hismain.HTM

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 27 16:37:32 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:37:32 -0800
Subject: The FATHERLAND...
Message-ID: <002e01c177a4$e2267e80$9c0da2cd@vaio>

If the PowersThatBe would just substitute the word
FATHERLAND for the word HOMELAND, then THEY [TM]
would be able to recycle all of the Third Reich speeches and
propaganda material in the march toward the Ameri%an
establishment of the Fourth Reich.
All that would have to be done is to substitute the word
'Muslim' for the word 'Jew' once the pretense of religious
impartiality is given up in the War On (Their) Terrorism.

OfCourseOfCourse [TM], this pretense is going to be
maintained, for the time being, despite the obviously
religiously biased demands by the U.S. that the new
Afghanistan regime that we have installed disregard
Islamic beliefs and tradition in regard to women when
forming a new government, even as the U.S. supports
and encourages, through tax breaks, Fundamentalist
Christian religious organizations which refuse American
women positions of authority, or even the right to speak,
in their churches.

The FATHERLAND had to take away all citizens' rights
in order to protect us from the Jews, while the HOMELAND
has to take away all of our rights to protect us from the
(Can eWe say, 'MuslimMuslimMuslimMuslimMuslim?'
Sure, eWe can...) Terrorists.

When Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time...
Now we need someone to make sure that the planes run on time...
No problem, THEY [TM] are way ahead of us on this one...

HOMELAND SECURITY now seems to Require/Justify an 
all-out war against every country which has, according to
unverified claims of any ThreeLetterAgency, appeared to
have maybe perhaps failed to have taken direct action 
against those that the U.S. has failed to take direct action 
against, because there was not yet any reason to.
As well, it seems that HOMELAND security requires us
to expect a LOYALTY OATH from every country, and
every citizen of that country, in which Terrorists may
be resident or doing business with, which, ByGoshByGolly,
just seems to happen to be every country in the world.

"Those who aren't with us are against us. And those who
don't toe the line with everything we say aren't with us."
"Anything not permitted is forbidden."

CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
ICQ 138724628
"The True Story Of The InterNet"
The Xenix ChainSaw Massacre
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
WebWorld & The Mythical Circle Of Eunuchs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/webworld/ 
InfoWar: Final Frontier Of The Digital rEvolution
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/
Space Aliens Hide My Drugs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/ 

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 14:39:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:39:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Further follow-up:
> 
> http://www.panynj.gov/hisframe.HTM
> 
> "On April 30, 1921, The Port of New York Authority was established as the
> first of its kind in the Western Hemisphere and the first interstate agency
> created under a clause of the Constitution permitting compacts between
> states. One area of jurisdiction was called the "Port District," a bistate
> region of about 1,500 square miles centered on the Statue of Liberty. The
> name was changed to The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey in 1972 to
> identify more accurately our status as a bistate agency."
> 
> Looks as though Jimbo now needs a remedial Constitution-reading course...

Keep reading until you get to the part of about it forming under a compact
allowed by the Constitution...it's a couple of more para's down. It's
interesting that you didn't include that little snippet...

I think somebody owes me an apology. Though I won't hold my breath, I hate
purple.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 14:47:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:47:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Why encrypt
In-Reply-To: <3C04155D.1506807A@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Major Variola (ret) wrote:

> I have had  success with some populations
> by pointing out that folks have been busted for their pr0n
> collection by nosy computer-repairmen.  And when the
> machine is down its too late to remove (wipe) or encrypt
> the naughty bits.  Good argument for encrypted volumes.

A removable hard drive is a better argument and a lot cheaper.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From t284 at fun.21cn.com  Tue Nov 27 13:53:36 2001
From: t284 at fun.21cn.com (t284 at fun.21cn.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:53:36 -0500
Subject: Government Grants Are For Real!!                         306
Message-ID: <000006fd5c5c$00004979$00000132@Kebi.com>

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From thomas at gideonfamily.org  Tue Nov 27 14:00:11 2001
From: thomas at gideonfamily.org (Thomas Lyon Gideon)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:00:11 -0500
Subject: The Crypto Winter
In-Reply-To: 
References:  
Message-ID: <20011127170011.A5473@gideonfamily.org>


On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:01:12PM -0500, Sunder wrote:
> 
> While I'm not comparing humans to ants, nor to slime mold cells -- don't
> even attempt to make that connection, the lesson here for you to learn is
> that individual action performed in the self interest of the individual,
> when integrated over a large population shows emergent behavior, and is
> beneficial to most members of the group.
> 
> You don't need socialism, communism, fascism or religion in order to help
> others out.  The drives to survival and self preservation allow us humans
> to act together in common interests.  As is does ants, most types of bees
> (termite bees for example aren't social.), etc.

The point about emergent behavior is excellently made.  A corollary that
occurs to me is that one of the prime motivators in the emergent quality of
human society may well be the pursuit of non-zero sum games.  This
assumption is based on my reading of Robert Wright's _Non Zero_.  I think
Sunder hits this on the head as well when he goes off about how self
interest does not necessarily harm others, that as humans we are not
typically bound by win-lose scenarios.  Rather some behavior may result in
poor or no gains on a societal scale and others may result in increased
benefits for all.

In this light, seemingly altruistic behavior can be re-interpreted as
banking favors against future need.  One of Wright's better examples is the
practice in certain tribal societies of giving away excess food.  Usually
the food wouldn't keep long, anyway, and by helping a neighbor out today
help is usually secured against future need when a neighbor may be the one
with the excess.

Tom
-- 

"I recommend..bread, meat, vegetables, and beer." -- Sophocles

mailto:thomas at gideonfamily.org
http://www.gideonfamily.org/tom/
jabber:Highlander at jabber.org




From thomas at gideonfamily.org  Tue Nov 27 14:11:38 2001
From: thomas at gideonfamily.org (Thomas Lyon Gideon)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:11:38 -0500
Subject: The Crypto Winter
Message-ID: <20011127171138.B5473@gideonfamily.org>


On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:01:12PM -0500, Sunder wrote:
> 
> While I'm not comparing humans to ants, nor to slime mold cells -- don't
> even attempt to make that connection, the lesson here for you to learn is
> that individual action performed in the self interest of the individual,
> when integrated over a large population shows emergent behavior, and is
> beneficial to most members of the group.
> 
> You don't need socialism, communism, fascism or religion in order to help
> others out.  The drives to survival and self preservation allow us humans
> to act together in common interests.  As is does ants, most types of bees
> (termite bees for example aren't social.), etc.

The point about emergent behavior is excellently made.  A corollary that
occurs to me is that one of the prime motivators in the emergent quality of
human society may well be the pursuit of non-zero sum games.  This
assumption is based on my reading of Robert Wright's _Non Zero_.  I think
Sunder hits this on the head as well when he goes off about how self
interest does not necessarily harm others, that as humans we are not
typically bound by win-lose scenarios.  Rather some behavior may result in
poor or no gains on a societal scale and others may result in increased
benefits for all.

In this light, seemingly altruistic behavior can be re-interpreted as
banking favors against future need.  One of Wright's better examples is the
practice in certain tribal societies of giving away excess food.  Usually
the food wouldn't keep long, anyway, and by helping a neighbor out today
help is usually secured against future need when a neighbor may be the one
with the excess.

Tom
-- 

"I recommend..bread, meat, vegetables, and beer." -- Sophocles

mailto:thomas at gideonfamily.org
http://www.gideonfamily.org/tom/
jabber:Highlander at jabber.org




From william at 25thandClement.com  Tue Nov 27 17:13:44 2001
From: william at 25thandClement.com (William Hitzke)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:13:44 -0800
Subject: pipenet padding
Message-ID: <20011127171344.A10681@25thandClement.com>


i'm constructing a pipenet application and
one of the biggest headaches is traffic padding.

end-to-end traffic padding is too costly, so its outta the question.

another similar problem to traffic padding is connection establishment
and tear-down. w/o significant enough traffic, you can't
really do it in mixmaster style.

my idea for link padding (between adjacent nodes/switches)
started w/ the idea of a bi-di 14400 bps, to make hosting an
anonnet server (my pipenet implementation) palatable to the
person who cuts the checks for bandwidth (such as myself).

14400 connections would force people to open many connections
for, say, looking at a website (multiple connections for the page,
images, etc). this would help w/ the mixmaster connection requests,
and allow hosters to better control bandwidth.

then i thought about allowing multiple "virtual links" to be connected
at the end node/receiver, so that traffic could be spread
across them. aside from latancy and ordering issues, this could
really up the through-put.

just recently (after reading an attack from wei dai on
the freedom network), i was thinking how these multiple "channels" could
be used to guard against the active attacks that are exposed
absent end-to-end padding.

if the traffic did not fill all the channels, and traffic was
randomly distributed across the channels, wouldn't/couldn't
this make attacks on the system much more difficult. especially
if different nodes randomly sent null packets to the receiver,
and vice-versa (to reduce possible collusion between the end node
and a middle node).

assuming the end node is trustworthy (more so than the set
of nodes used), then an attack on any link between the beginning
and end gives far less information to be used in tracing
a route, because its is unknown what the distributiuon of
traffic is.

it makes things more hairy, having to deal w/ out of
order packets (each single channel is still mac'd and sequenced
properly). but, it widens the security margins, no?

this design seems to me to be a win-win. it makes high[er]-throughput,
beneficial link padding possible, while (per the low
per-channel bandwidth cost) giving the host of a pipenet/anonnet
node more control (finer granularity) over traffic usage
thus making hosting less costly.

any comments, suggestions? i'm really looking for somebody
to tell me whether allowing multiple channels like this
exposts the design to more attacks than have been pointer
out w/ link padding schemes. otherwise, at the very least
it makes the application more practical.




From ANTIGEN_SSOCORPEX1 at shopthepig.com  Tue Nov 27 15:15:47 2001
From: ANTIGEN_SSOCORPEX1 at shopthepig.com (ANTIGEN_SSOCORPEX1)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:15:47 -0600
Subject: Antigen found =*.scr file
Message-ID: <4101C1718C71D211BFD80008C7593DE80185E12A@ssocorpex1>


Please read this entire message carefully.

Antigen for Exchange found YOU_are_FAT!.MP3.scr matching =*.scr file filter.
The file is currently Removed.  The message, "Re:", was
sent from roeder.brk at t-online.de (K. Roeder) and was discovered by our email
server.  The file was being sent to:  or cypherpunks at toad.com.  

This file has been deleted because it matches a file type that may be a
known virus or Joke file.  If it is a necessary work related file, please
contact the Help Desk to find out what to do next.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 15:15:51 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:15:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: SURRENDER DOROTHY!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> C'punks,
> 
> Just to put the final nail in the coffin, Inchoate wrote this:
> 
> > Fortunately it will be found unconstitutional,
> > states can't make treaties and such between
> > themselves.
> 
> Then when confronted with evidence that such agreements aren't
> unconstitutional, backpedaled to this:
> 
> > What do you know, they did go through Congress
> > just like the Constitution requires...
> 
> Then silence.

You've made a big enough fool of yourself on this point.

> Of course, it takes courage to admit it when you are wrong, so no surprise
> there.

As my original statement (which I thank you for providing) specifically
says 'between themselves'.

Reading comprehension reaches a new low (for you anyway).

Now, can you live up to your own last sentence?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Tue Nov 27 15:18:32 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:18:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Anonymiser.com might reveal your IP (fwd)
Message-ID: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:55:11 +0000
From: Klaxon 
To: Bugtraq 
Cc: NUKE Borgas 
Subject: Anonymiser.com might reveal your IP


  Hello, if this has been discussed in the past just tell me to sod off.
  While playing with proxy configurations for a machine at home I came 
 across a questionable behaviour from www.anonymiser.com. I stuck netcat
 on port 80 of this machine and than surfed back to it through Anonymiser.
 I know there's a transparent proxy on my ISP and apparently it attaches
 a "Client-ip: x.x.x.x" field to all http requests. What's fun is that
 Anonymiser happily copies this field to its own http request. Actually
 it will pass along any field sent with your request, which makes sense
 for "Accept-..." stuff but is obviously a bad ideia for anything else. 

-------------------------------------
[~]# nc -l -p 80

GET / HTTP/1.0
Host: foo.bar.com
Accept: text/xml, application/xml, application/xhtml+xml, text/html;q=0.9, image/png, image/jpeg, image/gif;q=0.2, text/plain;q=0.8, text/css, */*;q=0.1
Accept-Charset: iso-8859-1, utf-8;q=0.66, *;q=0.66
Accept-Encoding: identity
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.78 (TuringOS; Turing Machine; 0.0)
Client-ip: X.X.X.X <------------ BOOM!
Via: HTTP/1.1 proxy-02[XXXXXXX] (Traffic-Server/3.5.7 [XXXXXXXX])
-------------------------------------

  So beware if you trust this service and there's an unknown proxy
 somewhere along the wire. Please note this experience was with
 Anonymiser.com's free service. I would like to know if anyone paying
 for it can confirm this.
  To try it: launch netcat on your port 80 (nc -l -p 80), telnet to
 www.anonymiser.com on port 80 and request your address:

[~]$ telnet www.anonymiser.com 80
Trying 168.143.112.10...
Connected to www.anonymiser.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
GET http://your.ip.goes.here HTTP/1.0
Foo-bar: it hurts

 Netcat should spit this:

[~]# nc -l -p 80
GET / HTTP/1.0
Host: your.ip.goes.here
Foo-bar: it hurts
Connection: Keep-Alive

 If Foo-bar is there so can a Client-ip be.


-- 
EOF




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 15:21:06 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:21:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Michigan Asks Arabs to Come for Questioning
In-Reply-To: <35008c9b464a6acf0d639301b4b6d4b5@hyperreal.pl>
Message-ID: 



On 27 Nov 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> Coding will be regulated within next 12 months.

No, it won't. It won't receive any more regulation than it has now. In
fact, over the next couple of years you'll see the recognition of computer
code in all forms recognized as 'speech'. You will also find that the IP
problems we're currently facing will be found to be unworkable and a more
liberal mechanism will be instituted. In parallel with this will be the
growth of both wireless and private networks that will further complicate
attempts by any party to snoop without permission (crypto will be a major
factor of course).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Tue Nov 27 15:23:03 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:23:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nov-L: Wanted - cases of prosecutorial misconduct (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:55:50 -0800
From: Nora Callahan 
To: november-l at november.org
Subject: Nov-L: Wanted - cases of prosecutorial misconduct

November Members:

Please pass on the following notice to your imprisoned loved ones.

The Center for Public Integrity and veteran investigative journalist
Steve Weinberg are researching cases of prosecutorial misconduct that
lead to wrongful  convictions.

We would like to hear from anybody - prisoners, their families and
friends,  journalists, lawyers, expert and lay witnesses, jurors,
medical examiners,  police officers, judges - with evidence of
prosecutorial misconduct.

Steve Weinberg, of Columbia, Missouri, an author, is a former newspaper
reporter and  magazine staff writer.

Working with Steve Weinberg is Neil Gordon.  Neil Gordon is a research
associate at  the Center for Public Integrity, who has worked as a
lawyer.

Funding for the project comes from several sources, most prominently the
Open Society Institute in New York.

The research will be disseminated by the Center for Public Integrity,
possibly in  the form of a book from a major publisher.

Steve Weinberg and Neil Gordon plan to name names of prosecutors who
cross  the line, especially in jurisdictions where wrongful convictions
have occurred repeatedly.

Steve Weinberg can be contacted by:
E-mail: weinbergs at missouri.edu
Telephone: (573) 882-5468
Fax: (573) 882-5431
Regular mail: 807 West Blvd. South, Columbia, MO 65203

Read Weinberg's account of the Ellen Reasonover story, "Railroaded,"
which  was  published in The American Lawyer.

Neil Gordon can be contacted at the Center for Public Integrity by:
E-mail: ngordon at publicintegrity.org
Telephone: (202) 466-1300 x-105
Fax: (202) 466-1101
Regular mail: 910 17th Street, NW, 7th Floor,
Washington, DC 20006



--
The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit
organization, your gifts are tax deductible.
You can send your donation to:

The November Coalition
795 South Cedar
Colville, WA 99114


--------
November-L is a voluntary mailing list of the November Coalition.
To unsubscribe, visit http://www.november.org/lists/ or send a
message to november-L-request at november.org containing the command
"unsubscribe"




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 15:23:09 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:23:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Crypto Winter
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Um, I'm not sure I can follow Choatatian Prime logic here.  Where did
> Thomas's posting state that "of course people want to take advantage of
> others?"  Then again, it doesn't matter at all.

non-zero sum games.




 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 15:34:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:34:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: SURRENDER DOROTHY!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> But states DO make compacts 'BETWEEN THEMSELVES,' which is what Jimbo said
> was unconstitutional.  The fact that they have congressional approval, does
> not alter the nature of the agreement nor of the parties.

Not without congressional approval. No, I didn't say it, the Constitution
says that unless Congress has a say states can't play with each other.

As to altering your assertion, it most certainly does.

Please provide a state compact that doesn't involve Congress. All the ones
you provided as examples before don't qualify except under my statement.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 16:01:22 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:01:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
In-Reply-To: <20011127155156.A6990@nanticoke.irvine.ca.us>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Michael Gurski wrote:

> I guess it wouldn't be unconstitutional if Congress approves it...  Or
> does this not count as an "Agreement or Compact with another State"?
> Somehow it reads that way to me.

The problem, there is no real support. If Congress was so motivated they
could do it themselves and they haven't, not like they haven't been
trying. I don't consider 'National ID Cards' a major problem, more like
flash/bangs to distract your attention.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 16:27:34 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:27:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The times, they are a changin'...and so is SSZ...Open Forge?
Message-ID: 



Howdy,

Just a heads up on some basic changes that will significantly effect each
and every one of you. We are undergoing a fundamental change in direction
and goals. We are going to start a Linux/Plan 9 based source forge which
includes hardware as well as software. The tools will be Open Source. We
will offer closed source licenses as well. We will continue the on-site
service, still 24*365 (at varying rates), and development services. A
fundamental change will be the majority of SSZ services will move to
open-forge.org or open-forge.com. We're also adding visual graphics arts,
focused on web pages and limited length animations. Club Inferno, The CDR,
& Austin Cypherpunks will not move from ssz.com however. Our other mailing
lists will move to open-forge.org in early Jan. 2002.

The network will be more complex than my current single site. It will
consist of three (3) seperate physical sites (N. Austin, C. Austin,
Elgin). The N. Austin site will host a T-1. This will be fed by ISDN to
the current SSZ site (about 10 miles away). Elgin (about 30 miles away) 
will consist of a ISDN link to the T-1 site as well. There is a potential
for a site in Leander (about 20 miles) sometime next year - no promises.
We will build a Plan 9 based network for Hangar 18 that will be available
for public use.

This means that sometime in mid-Dec. of this year we'll be moving to a
T-1. There may be a few of days of flaky service and then we should have
it worked out. We apologize for any problems or inconveniences this may
cause. We won't drop the current ISDN link until the T-1 is working so we 
should at most have a day or two of downtime (hopefully I can do the
swap in a couple of hours).

These sites will offer 802.11a/b wireless acess as well as 56k dial-in
services. The dial-in services will not be offered to the clients or
Hangar 18 (we're not a ISP, sorry). The wireless resources will be
accessed through accounts setup under Hangar 18. We currently have a
single AP up on N. 183 behind Target (irrelevant to non-Austinites) but it
is not set for outside access at this time.

More to come, I promise...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Tue Nov 27 15:53:53 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:53:53 -0500
Subject: Tomorrow on ABC News
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011127185325.022db240@mail.well.com>


 From John Stossel, pretty funny:

>This week's "Give Me A Break!" is about Montgomery County's new ban on
>smoking in your own home if it bothers a neighbor.  It's not surprising that
>Montgomery County is the first to do this; it is right next to Washington
>D.C., where politicians are famous for running other people's lives.
>
>Montgomery County is also home to the mayor I interviewed recently, after he
>banned smoking outdoors in his town.  He said it was necessary to "protect
>the children."  After the interview, he went to the National Cathedral,
>where he worked as an usher, and in the men's room, touched the genitals of
>a 14 year old boy.  After pleading guilty to sexual abuse, he lost on the
>smoking front too--judges tossed out his town's ban on outdoor smoking.
>
>But the county's move on "at home" smoking hasn't been overturned.  What's
>next?  Loud children?  Perfume?  Cooking with onions?
>
>Smoke frightens me lots less than sanctimonious politicians.




From timoeze_72 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 27 09:56:22 2001
From: timoeze_72 at yahoo.com (Timothy Eze)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:56:22 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200111271755.JAA25034@toad.com>


PRIVATE MEMO

FROM: ENGR. TIMOTHY EZE
TEL: 234-1-7758054
FAX: 234-1-7594679
E-mail: timoeze_72 at yahoo.com
LAGOS-NIGERIA.								

Dear Friend, 

My name is Engr. Timothy Eze, a Director General in the Federal Ministry of Mines and Power (FMM&P). I am the Secretary to the Management Tender's Committee (MTC) of the ministry.  I am a subscriber to the World Industrial Reporter from where I collected your name and address in the International buyer's guide section

In a turn Around Maintenance (TAM) exercise in one of our parastatal a couple of years ago by Foreign contractors, we (the MTC members) were able to over -invoice the contract fees to the tune of US$35.00M (Thirty Five million United States dollars). The main contractors have been paid off completely. We now want this floating sum of US$35M, which is now in the ministry's account to be paid into a foreign account. Unfortunately, none of us in the committee own a foreign account since as public servants we are not allowed to run foreign accounts.

My colleagues (Chairman and other members) have mandated me to source for an account owner in an overseas bank where this money can be lodged. The choice person must be honest and versatile in business, as we shall be presenting him as though he executed a certain contract here in this ministry several years ago. We shall then use our various post and positions in the Government to influence the processing of this claim. 

MODE OF SHARING: We have agreed that when this fund is transferred into your account, the chairman and the other members of this committee shall come over there to disburse the funds as follows: 30% to the account owner (that is you), 65% to the MTC members and 5% to settle any expense incurred by both parties during the process of the transaction. This transaction is strictly confidential and risk free. The officials of (FMMP) involved are highly placed Nigerians. Kindly notify me urgently of your acceptance to this proposal so that we can set the ball rolling. It is expected that this transaction will last for 14 days from the time we get your acceptance letter through our fax: 234-1-7594679 or telephone call on: 234-1-7758054 or via e-mail. 

That is an opportunity of a lifetime, which we cannot afford to lose. Upon your response we shall write you a more elaborate mail/fax message educating you on your role in this deal and the way we intend going about the actualization of this objective. We shall also be explaining more about the source of this fund.
 
So sir, please do get back to us immediately even if you are not interested to enable us know if we should continue with our negotiations or not. I am waiting for your urgent phone/fax/mail messages with respect to this transaction.

Thanks,

Timothy Eze.




_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Nov 27 10:00:05 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:00:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Anonymizing Scam
Message-ID: <12f7d21cdf712c38cddbc954214cccc2@dizum.com>


John Young writes:
> Criticism of anonymizers and remailers and this list is a healthy
> as criticizing any reputable, and disreputable, private or publice
> means of communication.
>
> Fending off criticism by saying past performance and reputation
> deserves trust is a hoot and is also a hackneyed reply of someone
> who is concealing betrayal, or to put it more politely, has not
> yet learned how to earn trust continuously rather than bank it
> for unearned profit.

These are good points, but the mystery is why you don't apply them to
yourself.  Why not challenge your own reputation and trustworthiness?
You are no better than Lance Cottrell, are you?  You serve law enforcement
agencies as well as private individuals.  You are in much the same
position as Lance to learn about sensitive browsing habits which would
be of interest to the government.  You are no more deserving of trust
than he or anyone else.

Rather than make accusations about other people, why not eliminate the
middleman and make accusations about yourself?  End your hypocrisy.  Say,
"I may be sucking up to law enforcement agencies.  I may be recording
people's browsing habits and supplying them to interested parties,
with appropriate compensation.  I am not deserving of trust, in fact I
may be concealing betrayal.  Nothing I have done in the past should be
interpreted in any way to assume that I will not change in the future
and begin selling out my friends and those who rely on me."

You believe that this is the attitude we should take towards you, don't
you?  Why not come forward and say it.  If you don't think we should
trust you, say so.  If you don't think you deserve our trust, admit it.
You don't need to search out other people's flaws when your own are so
much closer at hand.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 17:01:52 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:01:52 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Cable Co's Want More Control Over Your Network
Message-ID: <3C043780.D6BCB99C@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/27/2036244.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 17:05:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:05:41 -0600
Subject: The Register - AV vendors split over FBI Trojan snoops
Message-ID: <3C043865.CF9CD900@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/23057.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Nov 27 17:28:18 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:28:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Symantec pulls an NAI
Message-ID: 



http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/23057.html

   "Eric Chien, chief researcher at Symantec's antivirus research lab,
   said that provided a hypothetical keystroke logging tool was used only
   by the FBI, then Symantec would avoid updating its antivirus tools to
   detect such a Trojan. The security firm is yet to hear back from the
   FBI on its enquiries about Magic Lantern but it already has a policy
   on the matter."

Looks like a trend...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------






From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Nov 27 01:26:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:26:10 +1100
Subject: [e-gold-list] HavenCo? -- fell over., 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011127202126.00a16ba0@pop.useoz.com>


Havenco,cypherpunks and indymedia all go offline together again DEW for US 
Fascist troop movements?


"I THOUGHT IT WAS THE U.K.
OR JUST ANOTHER COUNTRY
ANOTHER COUNCIL TENANCY
I WANNA BE ANARCHY
I WANNA BE ANARCHY
OH WHAT A NAME
AND I WANNA BE AN ANARCHIST
GET PISSED,DESTROY!"        sex pistols.




From lmouchabac at magic.fr  Tue Nov 27 13:21:03 2001
From: lmouchabac at magic.fr (Lionel MOUCHABAC)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:21:03 GMT
Subject: unregister
Message-ID: <200111272121.fARLL0S01374@moscou.magic.fr>



unregister me
thanks

--------------------------------------------------
Gestionnaire de messagerie WebMail / Magic OnLine.
http://webmail.magic.fr





From ffon at ffon.net  Tue Nov 27 13:35:50 2001
From: ffon at ffon.net (Telicall (800) 306 5227)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:35:50 GMT
Subject: FREE USA CALLS NOW! - DIAL (800) 306 5227
Message-ID: 

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From Marie at smoothsailing.net  Tue Nov 27 22:19:49 2001
From: Marie at smoothsailing.net (Marie at smoothsailing.net)
Date: 27 Nov 2001 22:19:49 -0800
Subject: MAY I SHARE THIS WITH YOU?
Message-ID: <20011128061949.14868.cpmta@c000.snv.cp.net>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Nov 27 20:28:31 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:28:31 -0600
Subject: Tempest for Eliza
Message-ID: <3C0467EF.DCD488AE@ssz.com>


http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Nov 27 22:43:29 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:43:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tempest for Eliza
In-Reply-To: <3C0467EF.DCD488AE@ssz.com> from "Jim Choate" at Nov 27, 2001 10:28:31 PM
Message-ID: <200111280643.fAS6hTm30442@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Choate Links:

> http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/

An amusing link, which tells how to display stuff on your monitor, which
can be received as music on a shortwave radio at numerous channel
locations, using the radiated EM.

Reminds me of my salad days when we used to set a Transistor Radio on top
of an early model PDP and feed in a paper tape that played the William
Tell Overature.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From roeder.brk at t-online.de  Tue Nov 27 13:43:33 2001
From: roeder.brk at t-online.de (K. Roeder)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:43:33 +0100
Subject: 
Message-ID: <168q0r-0kk2QyC@fwd04.sul.t-online.com>

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From correo at valmansi.com  Tue Nov 27 19:52:23 2001
From: correo at valmansi.com (mailmaster@valmansi.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:52:23 -0500
Subject: Tarjetas de Navidad
Message-ID: <200111280352.fAS3qNb29772@vmya.valmansi.com>


TEMAS DE VIDA CRISTIANA


OfrecemosTarjetas de Navidad con motivos claramente cristianos.

    * Hemos procurado editarlas a muy bajo costo para que la difusion
      del mensaje del Nacimiento de Jesus llegue a muchas personas.
    * Los precios de dichas tarjetas van de forma escalonada: desde S/.
      1.80 la unidad hasta S/. 1.20 cuando se compran 100 a mas
      tarjetas. Estos precios incluyen el IGV.

Nos proponemos devolver a esta fiesta tan nuestra su verdadero significado.


Le recomendamos visite nuestra pagina http://www.aplenosol.com/tarjetas/
, en ella encontrara todos los modelos y  la forma de adquirirlos y
hacer su pedido en linea.




Si quieres salir de esta lista solo tienes que marcarlo en el sgte. link

To remove yourself or change your subscription, please visit  http://valmansi.com/multimail/mail.php




From nobody at hyperreal.pl  Tue Nov 27 15:11:57 2001
From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous)
Date: 27 Nov 2001 23:11:57 -0000
Subject: Michigan Asks Arabs to Come for Questioning
Message-ID: <35008c9b464a6acf0d639301b4b6d4b5@hyperreal.pl>


>The individual should be asked if he is aware of anybody, including
>himself, who has received any training which could be applicable
>to terrorist activities,'' said the memorandum, whose contents were disclosed

C ? UNIX ? TCP/IP ? Java ?

The hardcore terrorists go for ICMP, BGP, IPSec, CHAP and similar.

If you chuckle at this you are a moron.

Coding will be regulated within next 12 months.




From hot_tickers at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 28 02:14:38 2001
From: hot_tickers at yahoo.com (HotTicker.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 02:14:38 (GMT)
Subject: ***For Immediate Release MNIL***
Message-ID: <3C0408F40000678C@wallstreet.stockrumors.com> (added by wallstreet.stockrumors.com)


For Immediate Release 

Showintel Enters Small-City Markets, 
El Dorado, Arkansas, First Location 

MEMPHIS, Tennessee  (November 27, 2001) --   Showintel Networks, Inc./MULTINET INTL CORP INC/, (Symbol: OTC BB MNIL),  will begin installation of its first small-city, online system for movie theater customers to purchase current entertainment products before the end of the year in El Dorado, Arkansas. 
The unit will be in the lobby of the city�s Stars Cinema, a member of the statewide Stars Cinema chain.  El Dorado is in the south central part of Arkansas and serves a geographic area comprised of six Arkansas counties and two Louisiana parishes, with a total population in excess of 200,000. 
�The ability to service the smaller chains in small markets with the identical application we are deploying in larger chains proves the usefulness of our services to all theater markets,� said David V. Lott, president and CEO of Showintel Networks.  �We are excited to be able to reach to the smaller operators and assist them with a customer pleasing way to generate additional revenues.� 
Showintel Networks, Inc. headquartered in Tennessee, utilizes video on demand technology to provide interactive entertainment and advertising on demand.  Showintel increases consumption of entertainment by creating a system that interacts with the �entertainment life-cycle�.   Combining theater-based advertising, innovative loyalty programs, video-on-demand (VOD) access to pay-per-view (PPV) and subscription services, Showintel can increase loyalty and revenue to a chain of theaters, increase purchases of ancillary products (soundtracks, DVD�s, videos, merchandise) and create a pinpoint targeted direct marketing connection with entertainment consumers to stimulate rentals and PPV, Lott said. 
In addition, some of the infrastructure investment to complete the system can generate incremental revenue through strategic relationships with local ISP and wireless network operators.  Additional information is available at www.showintelnetworks.com. 
This release includes projections of future results and �forward-looking statements� as that term is defined in Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 as amended (the �Securities Act�), and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 as amended (the �Exchange Act�). All statements that are included in this release, other than statements of historical fact, are forward-looking statements. 
Although management believes that the expectations reflected in these forward-looking statements are reasonable, it can give no assurance that such expectations will prove to have been correct. Important factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from the expectations are disclosed in this release, including, without limitation, in conjunction with those forward-looking statements contained in this release. 
Acomplete corporate profile is available at www.Hotticker.com 
Wall Street Web Inc.(Hotticker.com) is an independent research firm. This report contains forward-looking statements. Past performance does not guarantee future results. This report is based WSW independent analysis, and may, or may not be the opinion of Wall Street Web Inc.,(Hotticker.com), but relies on information supplied believed to be reasonable. WSW has been retained by Showintel Networks, Inc., and has received 350,000 restricted shares of stock. WSW, Inc and/or individuals thereof may have positions in securities referred to herin and may make purchases or sales at any time. The information contained in this report is for information purposes only and should not be construed as an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any security. Investors should consult with an investment professional before investing any monies.  Copyright 2001 WSW Inc.  All Rights Reserved. 

To have have your name removed from our database please go to:
http://www.hotticker.com/cgi-bin/remove.asp




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Nov 27 07:15:47 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 02:15:47 +1100
Subject: Waxing celebrities
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011128021059.00a22270@pop.useoz.com>


What do tom cruise,jenna elfman,john travolta and kirsty alley need that 
only we can supply?

Talk about a 'sweet spot' for well armed paparazzi.They also fly a lot."Id 
buy that for a dollar"

"Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable
that we have to alter it every six months."




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Nov 28 02:25:34 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 02:25:34 -0800
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011127155156.A6990@nanticoke.irvine.ca.us>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011128022239.037ee550@idiom.com>


At 06:01 PM 11/27/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Michael Gurski wrote:
>
> > I guess it wouldn't be unconstitutional if Congress approves it...  Or
> > does this not count as an "Agreement or Compact with another State"?
> > Somehow it reads that way to me.
>
>The problem, there is no real support. If Congress was so motivated they
>could do it themselves and they haven't, not like they haven't been
>trying. I don't consider 'National ID Cards' a major problem, more like
>flash/bangs to distract your attention.

Congressional approval for this sort of thing is about like the
proverbial ham sandwich that prosecutors can get grand juries to indict.
It wouldn't be a problem in itself, but Congress can delegate
much of it to the bureaucratic\\\\\\\\\\\executive branch.
Furthermore, while states probably couldn't make the kind of
agreement that would give one state Constititional standing
to sue the other for non-performance of the agreement
without a bit of help from Congress, they can certainly have their
bureaucrats go discuss common standards without getting busted for
anti-trust violations.





From New_Alertz at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 28 03:37:27 2001
From: New_Alertz at yahoo.com (New_Alertz at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 03:37:27
Subject: --->>News Released......................................... Time:3:37:27 AM
Message-ID: <200111280344.fAS3iK109230@web1.thinkdaq.com>

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From Info at crfamerica.com  Wed Nov 28 03:38:40 2001
From: Info at crfamerica.com (Info at crfamerica.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 3:38:40 AM -0000
Subject: Look at this! 9-11 World Trade Center Commerative License Plate
Message-ID: <200111280834.AAA05590@ecotone.toad.com>

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From testers at programmer.net  Wed Nov 28 01:27:40 2001
From: testers at programmer.net (testers at programmer.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 04:27:40 -0500
Subject: "After Thanksgiving, PCI DATA  Is Thankful: "We Have Software Testers-Developers Available For Contract or Contract to Hire"
Message-ID: <2s1m6a2674cjd8ii6pcf.45m24@it-hourlyrates.com>


From:-
Gani Pola 
PCI Data     
Marketing Division
434 Ridgedale Avenue, PMB # 11-108  
East Hanover NJ 07936  
Tel: 1-888-248-3443 OR 1-888-713-7201 
Fax:1-603-297-5644
mailto:testers at programmer.net

Attention: Recruiting Department/Human Resources Department
==========+++++++++=================+++++++++==============
Please find our software consultant's brief information  listed  are
available for contract or  contract to hire positions. We have consultants  available with skills-
*- QA Testers with   
	- QA Center Test Pack: QA Run, QA Director and QA Track 
    	- Mercury Winrunner, Testdirector, Loadrunner,Windows, Unix, Oracle
	- Seague Silk, Silk Pilot, Silk Performer, Windows, Unix,Oracle, SQL Server
	- Rational SQA Suite, Windows, Unix, Oracle
	- Main Frames tester with Winrunner,Testdirector

* Telecom Embedded software developers using 'C',Assembly and on VxWorks & pSOS OS platform, Sonet,      SNMP, Device Drivers
* Auto CAD Developer - AutoCAD 11,14, 2000, CAM, Fabricam, Camstore, FC2001, Windows 95, 98NT.
* Main Frames Developers with Cobol II, JCL, CICS, DB2,   MVS, IMS, TSO, ISPF
* Oracle Developers with Developer/2000
* Oracle DBAs
* Microsoft certified windows 2000 Admins
* Java Developers with EJB, Weblogic, Websphere, Swings,   Servellets, JSP, XML, Unix and   Windows
* VB Developers with Crystal Reports, Oracle, MS Access   and SQL Server
* VB, ASP, SQL Server, COM/DCOM web developer
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* System Admins

All of them will relocate and our  rates are inculding relocation. All of  them are on H1-B visa status and  available for Contract or Contract to
Hire and some of them are  immediate  hire positions which requires H-1B visa transfer For detailed resumes,rates and contact information,
Please send us  an e-mail  mailto:testers at programmer.net 

*************************************************************************************************************
To receive our Hotlist of available software testers-consultants please send a balnk e-mail
mailto:pci4hotlist2requirements at techie.com                                                                              
**************************************************************************************************************
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From unknown at toad.com  Tue Nov 27 13:52:06 2001
From: unknown at toad.com (=?BIG5?Q?=A4u=AC=E3=B0|=B7s=B2=A3=AB~=B8=D5=A5=CE?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 05:52:06 +0800
Subject: =?BIG5?Q?=A6=CA=B8U=C3=D8=BC=FA=BCx=B8=D5=A5=CE=AA=CC?=
Message-ID: 

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From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com  Wed Nov 28 06:06:08 2001
From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 06:06:08 PST
Subject: News Blast - NCNY On The Move!
Message-ID: <200111281415.OAA03606@s0275.pm0.net>


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
NOVEMBER 28, 2001 - THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT
UPDATE FOR NEW CENTURY - NCNY
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Dear Investors,

On Monday we introduced you to New Century Companies, Inc.  
(OTC BB: NCNY.OB)  at $0.45 per share.  Enclosed is their current
press release.  At Wallstreet Universe, we will be keeping you
informed of New Century updates and press releases for the next
couple of months.  Our last four profiles of:  AMSE,  CETA, CBBD
and EMBI have performed tremendously and we expect the same of
New Century!   

Good Trading - Steven Schwartz and Staff!
mailto:support at wallstreetuniverse.com



New Century Companies, Inc. Provides Update on Pending Merger

LOS ANGELES, Nov. 28 /PRNewswire/ -- New Century Companies, Inc.
(OTC Bulletin Board: NCNY - news) announced additional details
regarding its pending merger with Smith West, Inc.  The merger
will further position the Company as a leading, vertically
integrated provider of machinery and cylindrical turbine parts
for the power generation, defense and aerospace engine
industries.

The US machine tool industry is an industry with annual sales in
excess of $30 billion.  Upon consummation of the merger, the
combined companies will have expected annual sales for 2002 in
excess of $50 million and an order backlog between $70 and $80
million.  Smith West is operating three state-of-the-art
facilities in excess of 32,000 square feet each and has such high
profile clientele as GE Aircraft and Gas Turbine Divisions and
Honeywell.  Moreover, New Century has been experiencing a recent
upsurge in new orders from defense and power industry companies,
adding to the significant synergies between these two companies.
 

"Our long standing relationship with Smith West, as a client of
ours, will enable us to quickly and efficiently integrate the two
companies," said David Duquette, CEO of New Century Companies,
Inc.  "This combination places us at the top of list for many new
defense and energy projects.  The defense and energy industries
have recently enjoyed the benefit of obtaining significant
government contracts and we are just starting to see that trickle
down into our businesses.  We strongly feel that we will continue
to see a material increase in our sales as these companies fully
ramp up to meet their commitments."   
 


+>+>+>  About New Century Companies, Inc. 

New Century, under its brand name Century Turn, specializes in
manufacturing, remanufacturing and retrofitting machine tools,
primarily Vertical Boring Mills and large Turning Lathes. New
Century is assisting in solving the current power crisis. By
offering remanufactured Vertical Boring Mills, the company saves
or conserves millions of dollars per year in energy cost by
re-utilizing the major castings of each Vertical Boring Mill.

These savings, generally in the range of 40 to 60%, allow New
Century to be the most price competitive manufacturer of Vertical
Boring Mills in the U.S. These cost savings are passed on to New
Century customers and afford them the opportunity to manufacture
rotating turbine components for power generation at better costs. 
New Century machines are also used by manufacturers of jet engine
components, airplane landing gear parts, oil and gas components,
to name a few. New Century currently manufactures its machines in
state-of-the art facilities in Santa Fe Springs, CA. New Century
maintains a website at   http://www.newcenturyinc.com . 



New Century Companies, Inc.  (OTC BB: NCNY.OB)
Current Price:  $0.48  cents per share.
Location:  9515 Sorenson Ave.  Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
Phone:  (562) 906-8455 
Website:  http://www.newcenturyinc.com 
More Info:  http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=NCNY.OB&d=t
Investor Relations:  Brock Malky, Insight Capital Consultants
Corp. (412) 363-5007



>>===================================>> 
DISCLAIMER 

Wallstreet Universe is an independent electronic publication
providing information on selected companies. All statements and
expressions are the opinion of Wallstreet Universe and are not
meant to be either investment advice or a solicitation or
recommendation to buy, sell, or hold securities. Investing in
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"expect," "project," "intend," "plan," "anticipate," "guess,"
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<<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>>
* To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to:
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* Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field
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pmguid:rd.yms.37kh




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Nov 27 11:39:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 06:39:53 +1100
Subject: FC: Has McAfee sided with FBI on "Magic Lantern" detection?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011128063238.00a5e9b0@pop.useoz.com>


With virus scan as product they dont need any stinking FIB virus.Im 
browsing the archives before the big blackout and found a prediction for 'PUFF'

...). I bet the NSA is doing active research on sniffer viruses
and other automated tools for large scale active attacks.
Wei Dai
jan 96

Suggest cherrypick and store selected posts from the archives,the rolling 
shitstorms coming.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Nov 27 11:54:33 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 06:54:33 +1100
Subject: FC: Dorothy Denning on "geo-encryption": 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011128064450.00a5e520@pop.useoz.com>


Ive gone on record at indymedia when the tampa facescan story broke that I 
suspect the whole star wars thing is about placing lasers next to the 
hi-res optics (a la 'patriot games',remember the shot looking down on 
cleavage from outer space?) The laser will be able to fry individual 
citizen-units.What else would they waste all that money on?If they want to 
shoot down rougue ICBMs ,then they could scale up the new aussi gun that 
was featured in wired recently.As im cherrypicking the archives I came 
across jims likening of Dotty to the wicked witch of the west,peter F 
macDoran might be her latest flying monkee.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 05:01:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 07:01:16 -0600
Subject: The Register - The Google attack engine
Message-ID: <3C04E01C.122FC9CA@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/23069.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jasonk at funnymoney.com  Wed Nov 28 07:02:17 2001
From: jasonk at funnymoney.com (Jason Kulpa)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 07:02:17 -0800
Subject: exclusive leads at non-exclusive prices
Message-ID: <200111280707606.SM00296@amanda>


Hello,

eLoan Group is your portal to the freshest mortgage and debt consolidation leads in the industry.  We have leveraged our extensive internet marketing and mortgage backgrounds to create a lead generation powerhouse.  

The shear volume of leads that we are able to generate, allows eLoan Group to offer exclusive leads at non-exclusive prices.  Why pay more for an inferior lead?  

If you are still skeptical please put us to the test.  Inquire about how to obtain a few free leads to get you started.    

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www.BuildAResume.com
www.eGamingPlanet.com
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From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Nov 27 12:14:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 07:14:53 +1100
Subject: Waxing celebrities 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011128070858.00a61540@pop.useoz.com>


Your a quick study bill,only I dont see your operation soft drill 
dollar.ANTE UP.

"...the networkeffect, a conceptual corollary to Metcalfe's Law (Bob 
Metcalfe invented Ethernet) - the value of a network grows in proportion to 
the square of its number of users. This implies that if we double the Web's 
user base, we quadruple the overall usefulness of the system for all."

I did double the OSD  user base once with assistant secretary of mass 
murder and heroin smuggling,dick armitrage.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Nov 28 08:23:16 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:23:16 -0800
Subject: cypherpunks@lne.com down - bouncing mail since 11/27 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011128082116.037f3230@idiom.com>


Mail to cypherpunks at lne.com appears to be bouncing since sometime yesterday.

>Delivered-To: bill.stewart at pobox.com
>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:10:17 -0800
>From: Mail Delivery Subsystem 
>To: 
>Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details
>Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
>
>The original message was received at Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:08:08 -0800
>from hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]
>
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
>
>     (reason: 550 ... User unknown)
>
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>... while talking to meer.meer.net.:
> >>> RCPT To:
><<< 550 ... User unknown
>550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
>Reporting-MTA: dns; slack.lne.com
>Received-From-MTA: DNS; hall.mail.mindspring.net
>Arrival-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:08:08 -0800
>
>Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks-request at lne.com
>Action: failed
>Status: 5.1.1
>Remote-MTA: DNS; meer.meer.net
>Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 ... User unknown
>Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:10:17 -0800
>Return-Path: 
>Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net 
>[207.69.200.60])
>         by slack.lne.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fASG87r02455
>         for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:08:08 -0800
>Received: from user-2ivfk1f.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.208.47] 
>helo=billstewart1.pobox.com)
>         by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1)
>         id 1697Fl-0007zA-00
>         for cypherpunks-request at lne.com; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:08:06 -0500
>Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20011128075956.032b1ec0 at idiom.com>
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2
>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:00:15 -0800
>To: cypherpunks-request at lne.com
>From: Bill Stewart 
>Subject: help
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>which
>lists
>help
>





From testers at programmer.net  Wed Nov 28 06:18:14 2001
From: testers at programmer.net (testers at programmer.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:18:14 -0500
Subject: "After Thanksgiving, PCI DATA  Is Thankful: "We Have Software Testers-Developers Available For Contract or Contract to Hire"
Message-ID: <5d22xyxm.8v4k5x0wjp8b0@it-hourlyrates.com>


From:-
Gani Pola 
PCI Data     
Marketing Division
434 Ridgedale Avenue, PMB # 11-108  
East Hanover NJ 07936  
Tel: 1-888-248-3443 OR 1-888-713-7201 
Fax:1-603-297-5644
mailto:testers at programmer.net

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*************************************************************************************************************
To receive our Hotlist of available software testers-consultants please send a balnk e-mail
mailto:pci4hotlist2requirements at techie.com                                                                              
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mailto:testers at programmer.net?subject=Remove..cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Nov 28 10:34:03 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:34:03 -0800
Subject: mark
Message-ID: <3C052E1B.703871BA@lsil.com>


My guess for "mark" : derived from an old accounting method of marks on
sticks or paper.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Nov 28 10:37:27 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:37:27 -0800
Subject: Symantec pulls an NAI
Message-ID: <3C052EE7.214807D0@lsil.com>


measl at mfn.org wrote :
>
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/23057.html
>
>   "Eric Chien, chief researcher at Symantec's antivirus research lab,
>   said that provided a hypothetical keystroke logging tool was used only
>   by the FBI, then Symantec would avoid updating its antivirus tools to
>   detect such a Trojan. The security firm is yet to hear back from the
>   FBI on its enquiries about Magic Lantern but it already has a policy
>   on the matter."
>
>Looks like a trend...
>
Could you be more specific? Do you mean that this is a new trend or
simply and old trend and a new ( and very limited ) bit of daylight?

Mike




From blancw at cnw.com  Wed Nov 28 10:55:20 2001
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:55:20 -0800
Subject: Tomorrow on ABC News
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011127185325.022db240@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 


Quoted by Declan McCullagh:

:>This week's "Give Me A Break!" is about Montgomery County's new ban on
:>smoking in your own home if it bothers a neighbor.  It's not surprising
:>that Montgomery County is the first to do this; it is right next to
:>Washington D.C., where politicians are famous for running other people's
:>lives.
------------------


This past Sunday, George Will was on one of those morning shows like "Meet
the Press", where he referred to the Taliban "Ministry for the Suppression
of Vice and the Promotion of Virtue". Then he announced that there is a
'Taliban' operating right there in his own Montgomery County where he
lives - and related the story above, about the smoking ban.  He then
expressed the wish that when the U.S. Armed Forces are done in Afghanistan,
they would come over and deal with the locals in his county.  What will it
be next, he queried:  barbecue smoke (and other similar examples)?  Cokie
Roberts laughed and said, well,you can always vote against it.

(but if the majority votes for it . . .)

  ..
Blanc




From mv at cdc.gov  Wed Nov 28 11:16:22 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:16:22 -0800
Subject: baklava-tray trojan trapping
Message-ID: <3C053806.F13B394F@cdc.gov>


At 11:36 AM 11/28/01 -0500, Sunder wrote:
>If there is interest in getting a detector for this magic lantern shit,

>it's a very easy thing to do.  You set up an account with one of the
ISP's
>that you know has bent over using an Arab sounding name, install a
shitty
>OS like Windows, and start posting PGP encrypted messages with hotmail
>accounts with other Arab sounding names...

Clearly this should be called, by analogy with "honeypots", the
"baklava-tray"
strategy for catching intruders.




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Nov 28 08:36:11 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:36:11 -0500 (est)
Subject: Symantec pulls an NAI
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Yeah, no shit.  Think how much trouble they'd be in if they turned around
and said this:

"Pshaw, we ain't gonna support the Feds trying to catch rag head
terrorists, drug dealers, kiddy porners, and other bad guys.  Yeah, our
virus detector will stop them Feebs from doing their job..."  uh huh....

If there is interest in getting a detector for this magic lantern shit,
it's a very easy thing to do.  You set up an account with one of the ISP's
that you know has bent over using an Arab sounding name, install a shitty
OS like Windows, and start posting PGP encrypted messages with hotmail
accounts with other Arab sounding names...

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/23057.html
> 
> Looks like a trend...




From ericm at lne.com  Wed Nov 28 12:16:37 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:16:37 -0800
Subject: WTF is going on ??
In-Reply-To: <20011128191439.12746.qmail@nym.alias.net>; from
  secret_squirrel@nym.alias.net on Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 07:14:39PM -0000
References: <20011128191439.12746.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <20011128121637.A4033@slack.lne.com>


On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 07:14:39PM -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> 
> (reason: 550 ... User unknown)
> 
>  ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to meer.meer.net.:
> >>> RCPT To:
> <<< 550 ... User unknown
> 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown


I haven't seen this before:  I rebooted after a power outage, and
apparently sendmail was rejecting everything to lne.com with a "User
unknown" error.  I restarted sendmail and named this morning when I
realized what was going on, and now it's fine.

Eric




From simplypromotions at accpac.com  Wed Nov 28 12:26:27 2001
From: simplypromotions at accpac.com (ACCPAC Simply Free)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:26:27 -0800
Subject: Simply Accounting User ID and User Password
Message-ID: 

  	
 	
 	
 Simply AccountingSimply Free Download:
User Name and Password


Thank you for your interest in ACCPAC Simply Accounting. This e-mail
contains the user name, password and download page address that you need
to download and install this great product right now!

Your user name and password will be valid for 24 hours only.

User Name	11895ANOJJN	
Password	BFII12909	
Download Page
http://www.accpac.com/products/finance/simply/free/download.asp	

Shortcut: Go to the download page now, and fill in my user name and
password for me.
 

If you would prefer CD delivery, visit this link:
http://etxsf1.accpaconline.com


Download Requirements


The Simply Free Download requires 370 MB of free disk space (310 MB for
the download plus at least 60 MB to install Simply Accounting) and a
fast Internet connection.


Estimated Download Times for ACCPAC Simply Accounting

 Modem or Line Speed 
(Bits per Second)	Estimated 
Download Time	
  1.5 M (T1)	40 minutes	
 384 K (DSL or Cable)	 2 hours	
 56 K	 13 hours	
 28.8 K	 26 hours	

Please contact clientcare at accpac.com   if
you have any questions or problems.

Thank you,
ACCPAC International, Inc.

-------------- next part --------------
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From simplypromotions at accpac.com  Wed Nov 28 12:26:36 2001
From: simplypromotions at accpac.com (ACCPAC Simply Free)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:26:36 -0800
Subject: Simply Accounting User ID and User Password
Message-ID: 

  	
 	
 	
 Simply AccountingSimply Free Download:
User Name and Password


Thank you for your interest in ACCPAC Simply Accounting. This e-mail
contains the user name, password and download page address that you need
to download and install this great product right now!

Your user name and password will be valid for 24 hours only.

User Name	11896ANOPTE	
Password	SPHG12910	
Download Page
http://www.accpac.com/products/finance/simply/free/download.asp	

Shortcut: Go to the download page now, and fill in my user name and
password for me.
 

If you would prefer CD delivery, visit this link:
http://etxsf1.accpaconline.com


Download Requirements


The Simply Free Download requires 370 MB of free disk space (310 MB for
the download plus at least 60 MB to install Simply Accounting) and a
fast Internet connection.


Estimated Download Times for ACCPAC Simply Accounting

 Modem or Line Speed 
(Bits per Second)	Estimated 
Download Time	
  1.5 M (T1)	40 minutes	
 384 K (DSL or Cable)	 2 hours	
 56 K	 13 hours	
 28.8 K	 26 hours	

Please contact clientcare at accpac.com   if
you have any questions or problems.

Thank you,
ACCPAC International, Inc.

-------------- next part --------------
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From remailer at aarg.net  Wed Nov 28 14:15:15 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:15:15 -0800
Subject: Leahy is now an Enemy of the State
Message-ID: <1801520833122e3ff4300c739c26b650@aarg.net>


"The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee Wednesday sharply 
criticized the Bush administration for a series of practices it has 
adopted in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks, calling them a 
"marked departure" from long-held jurisprudence customs."


[...]

From:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/28/inv.justice.hearing/index.html



-MW-




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Nov 28 14:25:25 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:25:25 -0800
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Inchoate backpedaled:

> Why would Congress/President not invoke a
> National ID card themselves while allowing
> the states to do it with their permission?
> Why would Congress/President hand power
> over to the states they didn't want to
> exercise themselves?
>
> Answer: They won't.

Correct answer:  They would.  Given that the House and Executive branch are
in Republican hands.  And given that Republicans tend to support "states
rights," using the states as a cat's paw to introduce a national ID via the
back door makes perfect sense.  (Unless you only have inchoate sense.)


 S a n d y

http://www.dictionary.com/wordoftheday/archive/1999/10/26.html

Word of the Day for Tuesday October 26, 1999:
inchoate \in-KOH-it\, adjective:
1. Recently, or just, begun; beginning.
2. Partially but not fully in existence or operation; existing in its
elements; incomplete; imperfectly formed; as, "a vague inchoate idea".
Writers basically work by instinct - I think you have only an inchoate sense
of what you're doing.

--John Gregory Dunne, quoted in "How John Gregory Dunne Puts Himself Into
Books," New York Times, May 3, 1982
You take on a project because of the feeling, perhaps inchoate, that it may
in some way contribute to your deeper understanding of the larger-scale
research program you have chosen as your life's work.

--Christopher Scholz, Fieldwork: A Geologist's Memoir of the Kalahari
Still, if I'm honest, the most thrilling moments all came early, in the
Fifties and Sixties, when the music was a primary focus of my energy,
shaping my desires, coloring my memory, and producing the wild fantasy,
widely shared, that my generation was, in some inchoate way, through the
simple pleasure we all took in rock and roll, part of a new world dawning.

--James Miller, Flowers in the Dustbin: The Rise of Rock and Roll, 1947-1977
Inchoate is from Latin inchoatus ("only begun, not finished, incomplete"),
past participle of inchoo, inchoare, which is an alteration of incoho,
incohare, to begin.




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Nov 28 15:13:52 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:13:52 -0800
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: <200111282132.fASLWw910779@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011128151352.007c0840@pop.sprynet.com>


> Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable

Its not censorship if its not the government.

A gun show is a private affair; they can exclude
any vendor or seller, morally.  Legally they fnord can't
exclude for certain criteria, eg cutaneous albedo.

Cheers




From mv at cdc.gov  Wed Nov 28 15:19:27 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:19:27 -0800
Subject: Getting the Spanish to Jump When King George says Jump
Message-ID: <3C0570FE.20BA37A1@cdc.gov>


At 05:51 PM 11/28/01 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
>EU regs forbid extraditing people to countries with lower standards of
>justice
>than practiced in the EU. Spain has already refused to extradite the
>Al Qeada(sp?) suspects it's arrested, unless it's guarenteed that the
>USG won't kill them.. Spain (like most civilized countries) has
abolished
>the death penalty, and doesn't think highly of places which haven't.

Hey, we just sent billionaire slumlord George Argyros to Spain (suck
enough republican dick
and you too can have this job..),  maybe *he'll* tell em how its done.

Or maybe we'll have to occupy Spain, too.


>Sending them to a place where they may be tried
>by a secret tribunal is also a regarded as a problem

What part of "Infinite Justice" did you not think was bullshit?




From fadila.himri at caramail.com  Wed Nov 28 15:30:31 2001
From: fadila.himri at caramail.com (himri fadila)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:30:31 GMT+1
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <1006957831023342@caramail.com>

Hello
I prepare my these in coding speech(MELP) and i need 
documentation please can you help me 
I await your message.
Cord:
Himri fadila
05 rue mokadem ahmed 
Bechar 08000
Algerie 

______________________________________________________
Boîte aux lettres - Caramail - http://www.caramail.com


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From: unamaxwell at hotmail.com (unamaxwell at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:37:32 -0600
Subject: How To Greatly Increase Your Calling Area ...                                    [cfgxy]
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From william at 25thandClement.com  Wed Nov 28 15:47:09 2001
From: william at 25thandClement.com (William Hitzke)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:47:09 -0800
Subject: pipenet padding
In-Reply-To: <003901c1786f$c2310520$6200a8c0@p1038mobile>; from
  astiglic@okiok.com on Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 04:49:53PM -0800
References: <5jd1u9.7eo.ln@25thandClement.com>
  <003901c1786f$c2310520$6200a8c0@p1038mobile>
Message-ID: <20011128154709.A19696@25thandClement.com>


that's a *great* summary.

the attack summary leaves me thinking, tho:

if you take the pipenet model (w/ end-to-end padding replaced by
link padding), and layer on top of that a virtual circuit that is a
composite of multiple routes through the pipenet, than are you
not resistant to traffic analysis w/o being burdened by the risk of DoS?

rather than having a circuit being a single
route that can be easily analyzed, you utilize multiple routes,
and distribute traffic over those routes both in a fashion
meant to guard against passive latency attacks and route tracing,
but also capable (given cooperation between the end nodes) of
responding to active attacks on any sub-set of the routes?

this seems similar to the mix-net mentioned on page 4, but i
haven't read much on those. could somebody point to some material?

hmmmm, also, w/ multiple channels, you have more room
to randomly tear-down channels (rather than all at once).
if incoming traffic can be queued at the end node (which
i'm trying to do, so that even if somebody has lost all
channels, they have a small period of time to reconnect to
the end node and revive a session), you can reduce the benefit
of manipulating latancy within some fixed local time period
(at least for semi-realtime applications like http). iow,
how long is an attacker willing to wait for his manipulations
to manifest? it buys time for the network to react. i guess
the basic idea i have is to move away from a static,
synchronous network, and to utilize synchrnous routes w/ an
intelligent asynchronous layer on top.

thanx,

Bill


On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 04:49:53PM -0800, Anton Stiglic wrote:
> You might be interested in this paper:
> 
> http://crypto.cs.mcgill.ca/~stiglic/Papers/traffic.pdf
> 
> In case you have not seen it...
> 
> --Anton




From william at 25thandClement.com  Wed Nov 28 16:02:41 2001
From: william at 25thandClement.com (William Hitzke)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:02:41 -0800
Subject: pipenet padding
In-Reply-To: <003901c1786f$c2310520$6200a8c0@p1038mobile>; from astiglic@okiok.com on Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 04:49:53PM -0800
References: <5jd1u9.7eo.ln@25thandClement.com> <003901c1786f$c2310520$6200a8c0@p1038mobile>
Message-ID: <20011128160241.A12086@25thandClement.com>


ahhh, nevermind 'bout request for info on mix-nets.... i mis-read.
i thought they were something new.

Bill

On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 04:49:53PM -0800, Anton Stiglic wrote:
> You might be interested in this paper:
> 
> http://crypto.cs.mcgill.ca/~stiglic/Papers/traffic.pdf
> 
> In case you have not seen it...
> 
> --Anton




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 14:09:52 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:09:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Drivers License as ID Card
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011128022239.037ee550@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Congressional approval for this sort of thing is about like the
> proverbial ham sandwich that prosecutors can get grand juries to indict.

Actually it wouldn't be. Compare and contrast national ID cards developed
and authorized by Congress and the President, and then consider ID cards
managed by the states but authorized by Congress and the President.

To take your position seriously you need to provide a reasonable answer to
the following question.

Why would Congress/President not invoke a National ID card themselves
while allowing the states to do it with their permission? Why would
Congress/President hand power over to the states they didn't want to
exercise themselves?

Answer: They won't.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 14:22:55 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:22:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: <200111282132.fASLWw910779@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 



This is hardly equitable to an abandonment of free speech, nobody told him
he couldn't sell his book in general, only at their gun show.

Nothing wrong with that, one has a right until it effects another (and the
other is the one who decides). See democracy does work.


On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:

> >From Drudge:
> 
> Gun show denies booth for man selling anthrax recipes
> Wed Nov 28 2001 10:20:07 ET
> 
> A Phoenix gun show is refusing space to a Nebraska man who sells a 
> book that includes directions for making anthrax! Timothy Tobiason 
> attended gun shows in Salt Lake City where he hawked 'Advanced 
> Biological Weapons Design and Manufacture,' including an anthrax 
> recipe.
> 
> "We have told him he cannot go, and we have refunded his money," said 
> Bob Templeton, owner of the Crossroads of the West gun shows.
> 
> http://www.drudgereport.com/flash2.htm


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Wed Nov 28 13:35:25 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:35:25 -0500
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
Message-ID: <200111282132.fASLWw910779@slack.lne.com>


>From Drudge:

Gun show denies booth for man selling anthrax recipes
Wed Nov 28 2001 10:20:07 ET

A Phoenix gun show is refusing space to a Nebraska man who sells a 
book that includes directions for making anthrax! Timothy Tobiason 
attended gun shows in Salt Lake City where he hawked 'Advanced 
Biological Weapons Design and Manufacture,' including an anthrax 
recipe.

"We have told him he cannot go, and we have refunded his money," said 
Bob Templeton, owner of the Crossroads of the West gun shows.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash2.htm
_______________________________________________________________________________
Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address?
Visit http://www.FastCircle.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 14:38:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:38:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: States Rights & National ID's
Message-ID: 



It has been posited that the fed's would allow the states to form a
compact with respect to sharing data between states, basically because the
Republicans believe in states rights.

This doesn't hold water.

When one speaks of 'states rights' it references the ability of the state
to act autonamously and decide their own policies INTERNALLY; not to act
as a parallel federal agency. This is clearly not an internal issue. 
Further, a considerable percentage of Congress and the President have come
out (lukewarmly) against the idea.

When coupled with the growing concern over the abandonment by the
executive of current legal process (eg military trials for civilian
crimes) and the fact that Congress has not declared war the
Executive/Congress will find it harder in coming days to see 'eye to eye'.
This will make it even harder for an agreement to be reached.

[
 Personal prediction: Ashcroft will be history within 12-24 months. He
 will either step down because of a 'or else' situation or he will be
 found in contempt of Congress for refusing to provide the requested
 information and justification. The Executive is NOT the primary authority
 at the federal level, the Congress is. The Executive seems to have
 forgotten that.

 It would not surprise me if within 5-10 years we don't see a new
 Amendment better defining these relationships.

 Last nite on PBS there was a show where a congressman and an executive
 representative discussed the current situation. The congressman actually
 quoted the 6th. The reaction of the executive rep was stone faced silent
 anger. The congressman basically ripped him a new butthole. I only got
 to see about 10 minutes of it and I don't know the shows name.
]


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ingo.wies at aral.net  Wed Nov 28 08:44:08 2001
From: ingo.wies at aral.net (ingo.wies at aral.net)
Date: 28 Nov 2001 16:44:08 UT
Subject: Offer 28.11.01
Message-ID: <0001101E.3C052266@smtp.aral.net>



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From virus at waldonet.net.mt  Wed Nov 28 07:47:23 2001
From: virus at waldonet.net.mt (virus at waldonet.net.mt)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:47:23 +0100 (W. Europe Standard Time)
Subject: InterScan NT Alert
Message-ID: <200111281548.HAA21686@toad.com>


Receiver, InterScan has detected virus(es) in the e-mail attachment.

Date:  	Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:47:23 +0100 (W. Europe Standard Time)
Method:	Mail
From:  	
To:    	
File:  	Hairaisers Quote.doc.pif
Action:	clean failed - deleted
Virus: 	WORM_SIRCAM.A 




From anfar at waldonet.net.mt  Wed Nov 28 07:54:43 2001
From: anfar at waldonet.net.mt (Anthony Farrugia)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:54:43 +0100
Subject: Hairaisers Quote
Message-ID: 

Hi! How are you?
 
I send you this file in order to have your advice
 
See you later. Thanks
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URL: 

From baptista at pccf.net  Wed Nov 28 13:57:03 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:57:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: WTF is going on ??
In-Reply-To: <20011128191439.12746.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: 


have gotten this once myself.

On 28 Nov 2001, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> 
> (reason: 550 ... User unknown)
> 
>  ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to meer.meer.net.:
> >>> RCPT To:
> <<< 550 ... User unknown
> 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
> 

-- 
The dot.GOD Registry, Limited

http://www.dot-god.com/




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 15:02:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:02:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Leahy is now an Enemy of the State
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Couple this with a growing resistance by the states to cooperate in
fishing expeditions...

On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> > AARG! Anonymous[SMTP:remailer at aarg.net] wrote
> > 
> > "The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee Wednesday sharply 
> > criticized the Bush administration for a series of practices it has 
> > adopted in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks, calling them a 
> > "marked departure" from long-held jurisprudence customs."
> > 
> > From:
> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/28/inv.justice.hearing/index.html
> > -MW-
> > 
> Actually, the deteriorating standard of justice in this country is starting
> to blow up in the faces of Bush2 and his gang.
> 
> EU regs forbid extraditing people to countries with lower standards of
> justice
> than practiced in the EU. Spain has already refused to extradite the 
> Al Qeada(sp?) suspects it's arrested, unless it's guarenteed that the 
> USG won't kill them.. Spain (like most civilized countries) has abolished 
> the death penalty, and doesn't think highly of places which haven't.
> Sending them to a place where they may be tried
> by a secret tribunal is also a regarded as a problem
> 
> Peter Trei
> 




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Nov 28 09:08:23 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:08:23 +0000
Subject: "It's Proto-Indo-European for "money" "
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011128082116.037f3230@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3C051A07.35162A51@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Tim May wrote:
 
> Left as an exercise: the PIE origins of "mark" (another common word for
> a unit of money), "dollar" (ditto), and "crown." For extra credit,
> "peso," "peseta," and variants. For extra extra credit, "florin."

Just guessing for fun here, not looking them up  (My Oxford dictionary 
would tell me too quickly, as would any search engine, though maybe not
as authoritatively. I'll check them out in a day or two)

"Mark" is old word for borderlands. Sounds unlikely. Maybe it is related
to "market"?  I wonder if there is some word for "traveller" that is
behind "mark", "market", "merchant", or "march"?  A word for traveller
could come to mean a foreigner in one context & a pedlar or merchant in
another.  Stranger things have happened - one IE word, also meaning
traveller, lies behind both "guest" and "host" (in both senses) as well
as "hostile", "hospitable", "hospital", "hostel", & "hotel".   Or is it
"mark" as in sign or symbol, a coin "marked" with some token of the
issuers? And "marchen" (pardon my lack of umlaut) are folk tales.
(Travellers tales?).  "March" the month is the month of Mars (Ares),
associated with war - another possible link to borderlands but it sounds
too far-fetched, the old Germans had plenty of their own godlets without
importing Roman or Greek ones.

"Dollar" is "thaler" or "taler", German for "valley", and related to
English "dale". I half remember some story about silver  mined in
such-and-such a place being minted into Austrian coins called
thalers, later shortened to "taler" and used as such in north
America and the Caribbean.  Maybe there is a further connection to other
words implying low or things or states - dell, doldrums, dolour - I
think the resemblance between "dale" and "vale" is coincidence.

"crown" (AKA "krone", "kroner", "krona", "koruna") is  pretty obvious,
being coins stamped with a picture of a crown (presumably to show that
the king issued them) I've no idea of the earlier history of those
words. I guess that "crown" must be related to "corona". Perhaps it is
connected to "curve" or "circle" - no, that sounds far-fetched. It can
also mean the top of the head in English but that might just be a more
recent extension of meaning.

Many currency names originate as units of weight. Being British I think
of pounds and pence as money, so maybe "peso"/"peseta" were words for a
unit of weight, perhaps etymologically related to "pound" - that feels
more likely than a connection to "penny",  because there is a French
word for weight "pois", and Spanish is close to French.

A Florin is a coin stamped with a picture of a flower.  I think that was
the symbol of the city of Florence AKA Firenze, but the name has since
been used in Britain and Hungary ("Forint"). "Florin"  is recently
connected with "flower", "flourish" and so on & more distantly to
"bloom" I think.  Maybe a PIE root to do with blooming, flowing, flume,
or even flame????  Some idea of the sap rising in the spring & things
bursting to life?  

German often has "f" or "pf" where we have "f" so maybe a connection to
"pflanzen" which has to be related to "plant" and I think distantly to
"clan" (via Celtic P<->K)  and maybe even "branch" and "clade" - the
idea of a tree? 

I think I need to go and lie down. And I mustn't even speculate about 
"penny", "pound", "lira", "lev", "lek", "lat" "dinar", "drachma",
"shekel", "sol",  "rouble", "rupee", anna, "dam", "s(c)hilling", 
"franc", "real", "rial", "riyal",  "escudo",  "afghani", and that
grotesque name for a currency, the "euro"? (Just saying that it is named
after Europe gets no points at all. Or even marks. Same goes for
"Afghani").  All (with 1 or 2 possible exceptions) good Indo-European
names. (I suspect "bolivar" isn't IE either). Not to mention the slang
terms - "bob", "quid", "nicker". You Americans have "buck" (no idea),
"quarter" (obvious but silly) and "dime" (? mispronounciation of
something to do with "decimal"?)

With luck, about a quarter of that bears some resemblance to truth. I
won't say I made it all up over a cup of tea in a break from work,
but...

Ken Brown


Nuts! cypherpunks at lne rejected the posting!




From baptista at pccf.net  Wed Nov 28 14:22:03 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:22:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CBC News:  Russians unexpectedly arrive in Kabul (fwd)
Message-ID: 


Looks like the russians have arrived for the party.

RUSSIANS UNEXPECTEDLY ARRIVE IN KABUL

FULL STORY:
http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/view?/news/2001/11/27/russians011127

   Last Updated: Tue Nov 27 22:16:38 2001 
   
   KABUL - While U.S. Marines were consolidating their bridgehead near
   Kandahar in southern Afghanistan, Russian troops unexpectedly arrived
   in Kabul.
   
   They set up camp on a piece of waste ground, and have so far refused
   to say what they're doing in the capital.
   
   Some sources said they are setting up a temporary embassy, others said
   a field hospital. But it looks like a military camp and many Afghans
   have bitter memories of the 10 years of Soviet occupation.
   
   "A few years ago they came here (to) Afghanistan and they fought with
   people. And they are very crude people. We don't like (them)," said
   one man. "Russians destroyed all of Afghanistan. Maybe they are now
   coming to help," said another.
   
   Given the Soviet occupation of this country in the 1980s, Russian
   soldiers may not be the ideal choice for a humanitarian mission. But
   Russia is a strong supporter of the Northern Alliance, which has been
   in power in Kabul for two weeks.
   
   Russia may be flexing its muscle as one of the regional powers in
   Afghanistan, or it may be keen to show that if Washington can put
   Marines in Kandahar, then Moscow can put troops in downtown Kabul.
   
   Written by CBC News Online staff
   
   Patrick Brown reports for CBC TV Runs 1:58
   
-- 
Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Nov 28 08:24:15 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:24:15 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: Routes of Least Surveillance (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:06:52 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Routes of Least Surveillance


>http://www.notbored.org/the-scp.html


>From: Monty Solomon 
>
>Routes of Least Surveillance
>By Erik Baard
>
>2:00 a.m. Nov. 28, 2001 PST
>
>It's not the journey or the destination; it's the getting there
>unseen that counts.
>
>Or so goes the thinking behind a new mapping utility created by civil
>libertarians to guide New Yorkers through Manhattan along routes with
>the fewest surveillance cameras.
>
>It's like Mapquest for dissidents and paranoiacs, or for those simply
>creeped out by the feeling of being watched, constantly, by countless
>mechanical eyes.
>
>The service, called iSee, was created by the Institute for Applied
>Autonomy, a group of technologists, and the New York Surveillance
>Camera Project, an offshoot of the New York Civil Liberties Union.
>
>...
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,48664,00.html


For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 15:36:02 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:36:02 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Ask Ed Felten About Watermarking Analysis And More
Message-ID: <3C0574E2.8965B9CC@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/interviews/01/11/28/1725224.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 15:38:47 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:38:47 -0600
Subject: The Times - West's feminist under fire from female general
Message-ID: <3C057587.545BB2DD@ssz.com>


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001540008-2001551489,00.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com  Wed Nov 28 17:39:49 2001
From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:39:49 PST
Subject: New Stock Profile & Get A Free DVD Player!
Message-ID: <200111290231.CAA92265@s0295.pm0.net>


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
NOVEMBER 29, 2001 - THE WALLSTREET UNIVERSE REPORT
Today's Profile:  Dealcheck.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Hello Serious Investors,

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DealCheck.com Inc. focuses on funding the development of Internet
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Dealcheck is a growing holding company. The company has holdings
in the following companies: xLoom Systems in Seattle, WA.,
Biochex Corp. in Toronto, Canada, and IR Check, Inc. Toronto,
Canada.  Below you will find more info on these companies.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DEALCHECK.COM  INC.   (DCHK OTC:BB)
Total Shares Outstanding : 5,000,000 
Current Price:  $0.29
Website:   http://www.dealcheck.com.  
Address:  65 Queen Street West,  Suite 1905
Toronto, Ontario,  Canada, M5H 2M5 

Robert Kennedy - Investor Relations
Tel: 416-860-0211
Fax: 416-361-6228
Email: robert at currentcapital.com 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



+>+>+>  xLoom   http://www.xloom.com   Business and the
marketplace have been transformed by the rapid adoption of
Internet technologies. Today, companies must integrate into a
24/7 global economy by providing always-on, access-anywhere
solutions to support employees, partners and customers.
Enterprise developers must find solutions in an environment of
increasing expectations, competition, and demand for services,
all the while minimizing the associated costs of their solution.
xLoom Systems has developed an XML-based web solutions framework
- called xFrame - that enables the rapid design, development, and
deployment of multilingual, device-independent, web-based
solutions for the Global 2000. 



+>+>+>  Biochex  http://www.biochex.com   was created out of the
recognition that wireless Internet Appliances - small devices
that connect to the Web - will be the Next Big Thing to
revolutionize the way we live and work. Eventually, you will hold
a gadget in your hand that is as smart as the low-end PC you are
using today. Many of the estimated 35 to 50 devices in your home
will be able to talk to each other! Biochex is developing an
Internet enabled medical data logging device, that is both
wireless and portable. The objective is to innovate and develop
cost-effective, secure and portable Internet appliances, with
wireless connection to the Web, using the latest technologies for
wireless connectivity such as Bluetooth (short range, low power
radio technology), 802.11HR and Wi-Fi. Biochex has chosen to
focus its initial efforts in the health and medical fields. It is
their mission to develop the best wireless physiological
monitoring devices to promote health and well-being. 



+>+>+>  IR Check  http://www.ircheck.com   is the an investor
relations portal that brings timely information to the investment
community in the world of Investor Relations. Investors, Investor
Relations Firms as well as CEO/CFO's of Publicly Traded Companies
can take advantage of this unique service to “Get to the bottom
line.” IR Check provides up to the minute info on who is doing
what in the world of IR, the difference between an active stock
moving higher is often the result of the IR firm managing the
promotion of the public company.



Dealcheck's vision is to develop holdings in various industries
through acquisition of existing companies, applying the financial
resources and management expertise to foster the growth and
profitability of the acquired businesses. The holding company
serves as a financial and professional partner to the management
of the subsidiaries. The role of the holding company is to
improve each subsidiary's access to capital, achieve economics of
scale by consolidating administrative functions, and utilize the
financial and management expertise of corporate personnel across
all units. The Company is continuing to work with management of
the subsidiary companies to improve revenues, operations and
profitability. 
 
 
  
For More Recent Developments Please Go To:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=dchk.ob&d=c 
 
  

>>===================================>> 
DISCLAIMER 

Wallstreet Universe is an independent electronic publication
providing information on selected companies. All statements and
expressions are the opinion of Wallstreet Universe and are not
meant to be either investment advice or a solicitation or
recommendation to buy, sell, or hold securities. Investing in
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extremely high degree of risk. Wallstreet Universe is not a
registered investment advisor or a broker dealer. It is possible
that an investor's investment may be lost or impaired due to the
speculative nature of the companies profiled. This report relies
on information provided by the featured Companies and/or third
parties. 

While Wallstreet Universe believes its sources to be reliable, we
make no representation or warranty as to the accuracy of the
information provided. Readers should not rely solely on the
information contained in this publication, but should consult
with their own independent tax, business and financial advisors
with respect to any investment opportunity, including any
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Factual statements in this publication are made as of the date
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We have prepared this report, drawing upon a range of public
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Wallstreet Universe has not independently verified the Company's
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This advertisement does not provide an analysis of the Company's
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conditions. 

SAFE HARBOR FOR FORWARD-LOOKING STATEMENTS: 

Except for historical information contained herein, the
statements on this website and newsletter are forward-looking
statements that are made pursuant to the safe harbor provisions
of the Private Securities Reform Act of 1995. Forward-looking
statements involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties,
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"expect," "project," "intend," "plan," "anticipate," "guess,"
"think," "hear," "suggest," "believe" and other words and terms
of similar meaning in connection with any discussion of future
operating or financial performance. 



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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 15:39:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:39:58 -0600
Subject: Reuters | Breaking News from Around the Globe - Germany warns US on wider anti-terror war
Message-ID: <3C0575CE.6C3F2B84@ssz.com>


http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml;jsessionid=QCC1LTOI2Q2TWCRBAEZSFEYKEEATIIWD?type=worldnews&StoryID=412961
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 15:43:12 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:43:12 -0600
Subject: Limbaugh: Bush's FDR Example (washingtonpost.com)
Message-ID: <3C057690.B0C3EEB@ssz.com>


As usual the ditto head doesn't seem to grasp that 'magnitude' isn't the
issue, it's that it happens at all.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25203-2001Nov27.html

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Nov 28 14:51:07 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:51:07 -0500
Subject: Leahy is now an Enemy of the State
Message-ID: 


> AARG! Anonymous[SMTP:remailer at aarg.net] wrote
> 
> "The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee Wednesday sharply 
> criticized the Bush administration for a series of practices it has 
> adopted in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks, calling them a 
> "marked departure" from long-held jurisprudence customs."
> 
> From:
> http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/11/28/inv.justice.hearing/index.html
> -MW-
> 
Actually, the deteriorating standard of justice in this country is starting
to blow up in the faces of Bush2 and his gang.

EU regs forbid extraditing people to countries with lower standards of
justice
than practiced in the EU. Spain has already refused to extradite the 
Al Qeada(sp?) suspects it's arrested, unless it's guarenteed that the 
USG won't kill them.. Spain (like most civilized countries) has abolished 
the death penalty, and doesn't think highly of places which haven't.
Sending them to a place where they may be tried
by a secret tribunal is also a regarded as a problem

Peter Trei




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 15:52:18 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:52:18 -0600
Subject: Byte: It's Time to End Information Malarkey
Message-ID: <3C0578B2.5F246D4F@ssz.com>


http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1783/byt20011126s0002/1126_editorial.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net  Wed Nov 28 09:23:19 2001
From: mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net (Anonymous Coredump)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:23:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: ignore
Message-ID: 


ignore




From lmouchabac at magic.fr  Wed Nov 28 10:55:36 2001
From: lmouchabac at magic.fr (lmouchabac at magic.fr)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:55:36 GMT
Subject: remove me please
Message-ID: <200111281855.fASItVS18934@moscou.magic.fr>



>unsuscribe
thanks

--------------------------------------------------
Gestionnaire de messagerie WebMail / Magic OnLine.
http://webmail.magic.fr





From lmouchabac at magic.fr  Wed Nov 28 10:59:14 2001
From: lmouchabac at magic.fr (lmouchabac at magic.fr)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:59:14 GMT
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200111281859.fASIx8S19375@moscou.magic.fr>


unsuscribe me please on your mailing list
thanks

--------------------------------------------------
Gestionnaire de messagerie WebMail / Magic OnLine.
http://webmail.magic.fr





From LJH619 at aol.com  Wed Nov 28 16:02:29 2001
From: LJH619 at aol.com (LJH619 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:02:29 EST
Subject: work @ home
Message-ID: 


I sent in the order form with a money order to start working at home for the 
$3.00 per envelope stuffing.  I have not recieved anything yet, and its been 
a few weeks.  I'm am assuming that this whole thing is a fraud which I was 
ready for, but that sucks.  Can you help me out?  I sent it to the Better 
Solutions address on this website.  I'm not sure if you are the person I need 
to write to, but your e-mail address is on here, so I am going to write you.  
Please get back to me.  Thank you.
                                Leslie.  




From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net  Wed Nov 28 11:14:39 2001
From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel)
Date: 28 Nov 2001 19:14:39 -0000
Subject: WTF is going on ??
Message-ID: <20011128191439.12746.qmail@nym.alias.net>


----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----

(reason: 550 ... User unknown)

 ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to meer.meer.net.:
>>> RCPT To:
<<< 550 ... User unknown
550 5.1.1 ... User unknown




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Nov 28 19:21:00 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:21:00 -0800
Subject: Bell Arguments
Message-ID: 


Opening and closing arguments in the Bell trial:

  http://cryptome.org/usa-v-jdb-op.htm (Opening)

  http://cryptome.org/usa-v-jdb-cl.htm (Closing)

Interesting invocation of Cypherpunks by Bell's
attorney, not the prosecutor, in opening arguments.
Quotes Eric Hughes and Tim May.

"Scary" AP stars. Reminds of John Belushi's fearsomeness
to dysfunctional authorities who see themselves in his mirror.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 17:31:06 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:31:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [psychohistory] media bias (fwd)
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:27:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Christopher 
Reply-To: psychohistory at yahoogroups.com
To: psychohistory at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [psychohistory] media bias


This advice to journalists might also be helpful to
psychohistorians:



A Yugoslav Journalist's Advice to U.S. Media 
Jasmina Teodosijevic-Ryan, TomPaine.com
November 7, 2001

How and when does journalism become propaganda? As a
writer, broadcaster and media analyst from the former
Yugoslavia, I have observed the process first-hand. It
starts slowly, then spreads like a stain. 


The transformation from objective journalism to
propaganda begins with the addition of adjectives when
referring to the other side. The "enemy" becomes
"merciless" or "hate-filled". Then comes the shaping,
cutting and editing reports to benefit one side. "Our"
victims have names, faces and grieving families; they
must be avenged. "Theirs" do not exist. When
journalists say "we" to refer to "their" side's
military force, they've crossed the decisive bright
line into nonprofessional territory. 


I analyzed both Serbian and Kosovo Albanian media for
the London-based Institute for War and Peace Reporting
during the months of high violence in Kosovo in
1998-1999. Most striking was the similarity of
language and models that the biased media of both
sides were using to demonize and dehumanize the
"others." "Murderers", "death squads", "terrorists"
and "zlocinci" (evildoers) were always on the other
side. 


One of those media was Radio-Television of Serbia,
which strongly supported the policy of former
president Milosevic, and helped him remain in power by
falsifying the news and manipulating public opinion.
Their studios were bombed during the NATO air-strikes
on Yugoslavia in 1999, and 16 young staffers died
there. International organizations protested NATO's
hitting this seemingly-civilian target. NATO's
officials responded that Radio-Television of Serbia
were a part of Milosevic's war propaganda machine, and
as thus, a legitimate military target. One wonders how
would NATO have reacted if Milosevic had the power to
rocket Fox News or CNN. 


We usually connect propaganda to totalitarian regimes
and undemocratic societies. But recently, when major
American broadcast networks decided to edit bin
Laden's statements in response to a government
request, I saw U.S. media abandoning the main
principles of journalism. Until then, I had explained
away the unprofessional mistakes I'd observed as
understandable outbursts of emotion in the aftermath
of September 11th. But then I read CBS president
Andrew Heyward's explanation about the decision to
censor bin Laden: "Given the historic events we are
enmeshed in, it's appropriate to explore new ways of
fulfilling our responsibilities to the public." 


Farewell to the media responsibility to fully and
impartially inform the public! Who really believes
that the government instruction to reduce coverage of
bin Laden was for the public benefit? I think the
government's main concern was not that bin Laden might
send "secret messages" through U.S. television, but
that his arguments were more complex that the
caricature they wished to sell to the public. 


In times of turbulence and war, when passions and
emotions prevail over reason, journalists are
pressured from all sides, even by their own emotions.
Slowly and imperceptibly, they can slide from
professionalism into political marketing. Aware of
that, I developed a set of simple reminders for
myself, that might be useful to other colleagues when
navigating in these choppy waters. 


-Always remain a third party. No war is "your" war. 


- Resist free advice from the government. Preserve
your skepticism. 


-Treat the victims on all sides with respect. All
human beings have faces and families. No one should be
dehumanized as "collateral damage." 


-And, finally, in whatever ways you can manage to,
observe propagandist media on the other side. Do you
look like them? Have you become a soldier of your own
propagandist army? 

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11880


=====
It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. -- Alfred Adler

We evaluate others with a Godlike justice, but we want them to evaluate us with a Godlike compassion. -- Sydney J. Harris

__________________________________________________
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Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 17:34:53 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:34:53 -0600
Subject: California Appeals Court Upholds Message Board Speech
Message-ID: <3C0590BD.109674BB@ssz.com>


Kick Ass!!!!

http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/172455.html

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 17:40:43 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:40:43 -0600
Subject: Rubberhose cryptographically deniable transparent disk encryption system
Message-ID: <3C05921B.B7113AC1@ssz.com>


http://www.rubberhose.org/
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 18:00:29 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:00:29 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Supreme Court considers controls on online porn - November 28, 2001
Message-ID: <3C0596BD.9EEC555B@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/28/scotus.onlineporn.ap/index.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 18:40:53 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:40:53 -0600
Subject: Independent (UK): PPJC\Trap - Revenge is a trap & Bush is falling right in...
Message-ID: <3C05A035.96B36D04@ssz.com>


http://www.peaceandjustice.org/nowar/2fiskhi.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From adam at cypherspace.org  Wed Nov 28 13:47:22 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:47:22 +0000
Subject: pipenet padding
In-Reply-To: <20011127171344.A10681@25thandClement.com>; from
  william@25thandClement.com on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 05:13:44PM -0800
References: <20011127171344.A10681@25thandClement.com>
Message-ID: <20011128214722.A7524394@exeter.ac.uk>


There is some discussion of pipenet and freedom attacks in:

"Traffic Analysis Attacks and Trade-Offs in Anonymity Providing Systems"
Adam Back, Ulf Moeller, and Anton Stiglic

	http://crypto.cs.mcgill.ca/~stiglic/

Adam

On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 05:13:44PM -0800, William Hitzke wrote:
> 
> i'm constructing a pipenet application and
> one of the biggest headaches is traffic padding.
> 
> end-to-end traffic padding is too costly, so its outta the question.
>
> [...]
>
> any comments, suggestions? 




From toner at fastmail.ca  Wed Nov 28 22:27:55 2001
From: toner at fastmail.ca (toner at fastmail.ca)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:27:55
Subject: laser supplies
Message-ID: <763.70979.16764@unknown>





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2) HP DESKJETJET/INK JET OR BUBBLE JET CARTRIDGES 
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ITEM #13A LASERJET SERIES 5000 (29X)-------------------------$125
ITEM #13B LASERJET SERIES 1200-------------------------------$59
ITEM #13C LASERJET SERIES 4100-------------------------------$99
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ITEM #19 LASERJET SERIES 4500 BLACK--------------------------$79
ITEM #20 LASERJET SERIES 4500 COLORS ------------------------$125

HEWLETT PACKARD FAX (ON PAGE 2)

ITEM #14 LASERFAX 500, 700 (FX1)----------$49
ITEM #15  LASERFAX 5000,7000 (FX2)--------$64
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FOR CANON PRINTER CARTRIDGES

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LASER WRITER 300 AND 320------------------------$54
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LASER WRITER 12/640-----------------------------$79

CANON FAX (ON PAGE 9)

LASERCLASS 4000 (FX3)---------------------------$59
LASERCLASS 5000,6000,7000 (FX2)-----------------$54
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Nov 28 20:30:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:30:37 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | DMCA 2, Freedom 0
Message-ID: <3C05B9ED.852DA1FE@ssz.com>


[When did ThinkGeek start selling 'Cypherpunk' T-shirts?]

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/29/001234.shtml

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sales at edje-imaging.com  Wed Nov 28 13:15:11 2001
From: sales at edje-imaging.com (EDJE IMAGING)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:15:11 +0200
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <278601c17852$38fcd670$0100a8c0@denton>

 

Hi there 

 

We have employed unbelievable time and patience in reengineering our FT-PRS Prebate-solution chip and its software so as to cater to all known firmware changes.

 

Our new release chip is in abundant supply ex Chicago offices and will be known as: 

 

FT-PRS ver.1.02U+
 

There will be no holes barred in respect of price! 

 

@ $ 18,50

 

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If any offer made is unsatisfactory, simply contact us by return mail or phone so that we may be positioned to make counter offers

 

Yours sincerely

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suite 300, Edje House, 81 North Chicago Street, Joliet, 60432, ILLINOIS, USA

 

Tel: - 815 722 2350

 

Fax: - 815 722 2308

 

E-Mail: - sales at edje-imaging.com

 

Website: - www.edje-imaging.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

Errors and omission excepted

 

 

 




.
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From adam at cypherspace.org  Wed Nov 28 15:23:18 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:23:18 +0000
Subject: zks freedom websecure trial
Message-ID: <20011128232318.A7944200@exeter.ac.uk>


I noticed some discussion of the SafeWeb cancellation of free
services here.

ZKS announced yesterday freedom websecure, which is an anonymous web
browsing system with more robust redirection and script blocking than
systems that rely on html re-writing.  There is a free trial offered
for a couple of months.

	http://www.freedom.net/products/websecure/

Unfortunately it only works as shipped with IE on windows in this
version.

(The local browser plugin is the point where srcipting, java etc are
disabled, and traffic is encrypted (with SSL) and directed to a
proxy).

Adam




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Wed Nov 28 20:37:42 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:37:42 -0500
Subject: 2600 loses DMCA appeal
Message-ID: <20011128233742.A12199@ils.unc.edu>


>From http://www.2600.com/news/display.shtml?id=852

2600 DMCA APPEAL LOST - FELTEN LAWSUIT THROWN OUT
Posted 28 Nov 2001 22:39:50 UTC

A decision has come down in our DMCA appeal in the 2nd Circuit Court
of Appeals. We lost.

The text of the decision is now available and Judge Kaplan's decision
of August 2000 was upheld.

We will update this story as we continue to learn more. And we want to
thank everyone who has continued to support us in this long and
difficult battle.
...

The decision is linked at 
http://www.2600.com/news/112801-files/UniversalBrief_3.pdf


I've read through it (71 pages).  The Court of Appeals seems
to have done a thorough job of considering the arguments of
both sides.  They want to take a narrow interpretation of the
1st ammendment, in order to allow new developments of law
concerning electronic media to emerge.  

They were thoroughly convinced that computer code is speech,
whether in object form, source code or something else.  They
devoted many pages to defending this position.  But they
also distinguished the functional from the speech elements of
a run-able program (following Judge Kaplan), and believe that
the functional component, which essentially can break the law
without a user doing much other than running it, lessens
1st ammendment protection.  

Like Kaplan, they think providing a clickable hyperlink to download
a file on another site is the same as providing that file on
your site.

They don't seem to think that fair use implies any particular ability
to copy in a way the customer chooses - seeming to say that the
copyright owners can dictate what constitutes fair use.

I'm looking forward to seeing a more complete analysis by
someone with better credentials than I have...the above
are just a few things I noticed.

  -- gbn
 




From fish at ucnsb.net  Wed Nov 28 21:00:00 2001
From: fish at ucnsb.net (Jim McGone)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:00:00 -0500
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <200111291650.LAA06726@smtp.ucnsb.net>




Untitled





      
e Seine Trawler 


               
P.O. Box 2773 NSB, Fl 32170  
*  fish at ucnsb.net    


 


 


Re: 
Holiday Gift Buying


 


In 
1989 when I built my first Web Site, floridafish.com., I spent huge amounts of 
my budget mailing, faxing and calling potential customers. Fifty cents and up to 
mail (stamps, letterhead, envelopes, etc..), at least a dime to fax. Print. 
Radio. Flyers.


 


 Today 
we're officially in a recession. How this relates directly to your business, and 
how you adjust to marketing your product makes all the difference to you. Who 
are your Holiday shoppers?  Direct 
targeting with  e Seine Trawler will increase results 
500% !  



 


  Over the past year I have developed a software system that 
can target your potential customers and extract hundreds of e-mails in a matter 
of minutes. Any country. Any target business. Any professional group. Any 
language. Yep, we even do Chinese. (Yen is strong-could you sell your product in 
Taiwan, Hong Kong or mainland China?). And you don't need a computer. We'll do 
the e-mailing for you. Attach your Home Page if you like.


 


    
We'll send the Trawler out to gather your potential customers, 1,000, 10,000, 
whatever is out there. However many you want. We'll put the captured e-mails in a simple 
txt. format - works with any Windows application and send you half. You send us 
a check. Nickel per. We'll send you the other half.  Sit back and target market. FOR FREE! They don't all stumble across your 
Web site...


 


Questions? Drop 
us a note or e-mail. We're in the neighborhood.         
  


 


Jim


E 
Seine Trawler  



fish at ucnsb.net


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From fish at ucnsb.net  Wed Nov 28 21:00:00 2001
From: fish at ucnsb.net (Jim McGone)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:00:00 -0500
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID: <200111291652.LAA06987@smtp.ucnsb.net>




Untitled





      
e Seine Trawler 


               
P.O. Box 2773 NSB, Fl 32170  
*  fish at ucnsb.net    


 


 


Re: 
Holiday Gift Buying


 


In 
1989 when I built my first Web Site, floridafish.com., I spent huge amounts of 
my budget mailing, faxing and calling potential customers. Fifty cents and up to 
mail (stamps, letterhead, envelopes, etc..), at least a dime to fax. Print. 
Radio. Flyers.


 


 Today 
we're officially in a recession. How this relates directly to your business, and 
how you adjust to marketing your product makes all the difference to you. Who 
are your Holiday shoppers?  Direct 
targeting with  e Seine Trawler will increase results 
500% !  



 


  Over the past year I have developed a software system that 
can target your potential customers and extract hundreds of e-mails in a matter 
of minutes. Any country. Any target business. Any professional group. Any 
language. Yep, we even do Chinese. (Yen is strong-could you sell your product in 
Taiwan, Hong Kong or mainland China?). And you don't need a computer. We'll do 
the e-mailing for you. Attach your Home Page if you like.


 


    
We'll send the Trawler out to gather your potential customers, 1,000, 10,000, 
whatever is out there. However many you want. We'll put the captured e-mails in a simple 
txt. format - works with any Windows application and send you half. You send us 
a check. Nickel per. We'll send you the other half.  Sit back and target market. FOR FREE! They don't all stumble across your 
Web site...


 


Questions? Drop 
us a note or e-mail. We're in the neighborhood.         
  


 


Jim


E 
Seine Trawler  



fish at ucnsb.net


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From kywqgydf1756 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 29 00:17:26 2001
From: kywqgydf1756 at yahoo.com (Cyberx Casino)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:17:26 -0800
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Message-ID: <200111290818.AAA23241@toad.com>


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http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/
Space Aliens Hide My Drugs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/ 

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From l16183 at 24h.co.jp  Wed Nov 28 23:28:16 2001
From: l16183 at 24h.co.jp (l16183 at 24h.co.jp)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:28:16 -0500
Subject: The kids will love you
Message-ID: <000062f102d3$0000089d$0000072a@Post.cz>

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From anabolics.11 at reply.pm0.net  Thu Nov 29 02:00:52 2001
From: anabolics.11 at reply.pm0.net (Jeff Summers)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 03:00:52 MST
Subject: Under New Ownership!
Message-ID: <200111291317.NAA30109@va2-8-12-1.iserver.com>

New Page 1

******************************************
Note: This is not an unsolicited e-mail. This e-mail was sent to you
because your address was entered on a website requesting to be
registered as a subscriber. We NEVER send unsolicited email. If you\xa0
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please\xa0
see Full UNSUBSCRIBE instructions at the foot of this email. DO NOT\xa0
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at the foot of this page.
******************************************

Dear Valued Customer,

We wanted to inform you that Discount Nutrition dot com has been
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To remove yourself from our mailing list, point your browser to:
http://www.anabolics.com/emailremove.htm
Enter your email address in the field provided and click "Remove".

This message was sent to address cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com




pmguid:hm.yvq.68pc
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From usa at registeredsite.com  Thu Nov 29 03:31:18 2001
From: usa at registeredsite.com (usa at registeredsite.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:31:18 -0500
Subject: Fw:Requested HolidaySpecial
Message-ID: <200111291034.fATAY9X17180@mail4.registeredsite.com>



From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 04:42:40 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:42:40 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | DOJ Already Monitoring Cable Internet Traffic
Message-ID: <3C062D40.F870FCD7@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/29/0512208.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 05:04:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:04:16 -0600
Subject: Cops get speeding tickets from cameras -- The Washington Times
Message-ID: <3C063250.AFF2EA56@ssz.com>


http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20011129-13345237.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 05:12:42 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:12:42 -0600
Subject: Linux Today - Linux Journal: FTC to Probe IT Patents' Antitrust Effect
Message-ID: <3C06344A.7287FB42@ssz.com>


http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-11-29-008-20-NW-LL
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From Patriotic_845366 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 29 09:09:48 2001
From: Patriotic_845366 at hotmail.com (Osama H)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:09:48 -0800
Subject: Show your patriotism! with Osama Toilet Paper! Targets! Urinal Pads! and Voodoo Dolls!
Message-ID: <200111291655.fATGtQk31565@ak47.algebra.com>




Show your patriotism!  Put Osama in his place and support a good cause!

Wipe with him!
Shoot at him!
Pee on him!
Stick pins in his Voodoo Doll!


Check it out!       http://www.IHateTerroristsToo.com


p.s.  Cool Patriotic T's too! Our server at
www.ihateterrorists.com was temporarily crashed by
cyber-terrorists!  We'll be back there soon!





From Patriotic_845366 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 29 09:10:11 2001
From: Patriotic_845366 at hotmail.com (Osama H)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:10:11 -0800
Subject: Show your patriotism! with Osama Toilet Paper! Targets! Urinal Pads! and Voodoo Dolls!
Message-ID: <200111291655.IAA10548@toad.com>




Show your patriotism!  Put Osama in his place and support a good cause!

Wipe with him!
Shoot at him!
Pee on him!
Stick pins in his Voodoo Doll!


Check it out!       http://www.IHateTerroristsToo.com


p.s.  Cool Patriotic T's too! Our server at
www.ihateterrorists.com was temporarily crashed by
cyber-terrorists!  We'll be back there soon!





From Patriotic_845366 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 29 09:10:14 2001
From: Patriotic_845366 at hotmail.com (Osama H)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:10:14 -0800
Subject: Show your patriotism! with Osama Toilet Paper! Targets! Urinal Pads! and Voodoo Dolls!
Message-ID: <200111291658.KAA11426@einstein.ssz.com>




Show your patriotism!  Put Osama in his place and support a good cause!

Wipe with him!
Shoot at him!
Pee on him!
Stick pins in his Voodoo Doll!


Check it out!       http://www.IHateTerroristsToo.com


p.s.  Cool Patriotic T's too! Our server at
www.ihateterrorists.com was temporarily crashed by
cyber-terrorists!  We'll be back there soon!





From Patriotic_845366 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 29 09:10:14 2001
From: Patriotic_845366 at hotmail.com (Osama H)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:10:14 -0800
Subject: Show your patriotism! with Osama Toilet Paper! Targets! Urinal Pads! and Voodoo Dolls!
Message-ID: <200111291658.KAA11427@einstein.ssz.com>




Show your patriotism!  Put Osama in his place and support a good cause!

Wipe with him!
Shoot at him!
Pee on him!
Stick pins in his Voodoo Doll!


Check it out!       http://www.IHateTerroristsToo.com


p.s.  Cool Patriotic T's too! Our server at
www.ihateterrorists.com was temporarily crashed by
cyber-terrorists!  We'll be back there soon!





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 29 09:48:16 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:48:16 -0800
Subject: It's just inevitable
In-Reply-To: <20011129122640.A29513@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <44DC8A1B-E4F1-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 09:26 AM, Adam Shostack wrote:

>> "One former senior F.B.I. official described the investigation this
>> way: "When you send a whole lot of agents out after a whole lot of
>> people, they're going to find some who committed various crimes. It's
>> just inevitable."
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/29/national/29DETA.html
>
> (The article focuses on the fact that only about 1% of the 1200
> detainees are suspected of terrorist involvement.  It's a crime that
> they still haven't gotten due process, and we haven't seen their
> names...)
>

I save most of my rage for other fora (forums), but America's rapid move 
to a kind of police state has been faster than even most of us expected:

* warrants no longer needed to invade houses, tap phones, tap computer 
lines...only the say-so of a minor bureaucrat.

* "freezing of assets" (which I call a "taking," subject to due process) 
on the word of a government official, with no trial, no review

* unlimited detention without charges being filed, courtesy of abuse of 
the "material witness" process

* suspension of due process for "terrorists" (funny, how do they know 
someone is a terrorist until a trial has been held?)

* military tribunals for "terrorists" (ditto the above point)

* many cases of folks being stopped for "inappropriate praying" 
(Houston), "inappropriate reading material" ("Hayduke Lives!" novel), 
taking photos of dams (California tourists), etc.

Most of these police state measures were rushed into law, or declared to 
be an Executive Order, without any consideration of the 
constitutionality or the long-term implications.

These laws can and will be used after the 911/Afghanistan thing is over 
to suppress dissident groups, to arrest and hold people like Bell 
without charges being filed, and to wiretap and bug many more people.

Congress spent a year debating the "definition of what "is" is" and yet 
rushed through these Orwellian measures without serious debate. See the 
comments of Congressman Ron Paul in the .sig quote below.

Every Congressman who voted "Yea" on USA-PATRIOT deserves to be strung 
up from a lamp post.


--Tim May
"They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, 
and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually 
read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the 
vote." --Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw the 
USA-PATRIOT Bill before voting overwhelmingly to impose a police state




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Nov 29 10:12:11 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:12:11 -0800
Subject: how voluntary this really is
Message-ID: <3C067A7B.D8F22C2D@sarin.com>


What's next, a voluntary arab visitor DNA database?

from http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/29/national/29DEAR.html

The
Detroit Free Press reported on an Immigration and
Naturalization Service memorandum that said those who
were interviewed could be held without bond if
investigators developed an interest in them.

The memorandum, dated Friday, was written by Michael A. Pearson,
executive associate
commissioner of the immigration service, and was sent to all regional
offices. It said
requests by the Federal Bureau of Investigation "to detain immigration
violators under `no
bond' should be honored and will be handled in the same manner as all
prior cases with a
direct nexus to the Sept. 11 investigation."

Noel Saleh, an immigration lawyer with many Arab clients, said of the
memorandum, "It
just confirms our suspicion that what they've been saying was to be a
friendly encounter is   not going to be a friendly encounter."

...
"I think it is going to make some people not even show up," he added.
"Then they will go
looking for them. And then we will see how voluntary this really is."




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Nov 29 07:17:46 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:17:46 -0500 (est)
Subject: playstation? play dead.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011129235936.00a62eb0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


Um, what the fuck does this have to do with cypherpunks?  And he could
have easily been playing on a XBox or Dreamcast.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, mattd wrote:

> http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,3341838%255E421,00.html
> 
> Man dies playing playstation
>  From AAP
> 29nov01
> 
> A FISHING boat deckhand playing a computer game was electrocuted when a 
> huge wave smashed through the window of the trawler's wheelhouse off the 
> southern Queensland coast, according to police.
> 
> Richard Wells, 19, of Innisfail, in north Queensland, was playing a Sony 
> Playstation and sitting at a metal table when the wave smashed through the 
> cabin glass of the trawler Arrow Sea near Fraser Island yesterday.
> A police spokesman today said a post mortem examination had determined the 
> man had died of asphyxiation caused by electrocution.
> 
> "It was the combination of water and electricity and metal," he said.
> 
> "A huge wave came over the bow of the vessel and smashed through the cabin 
> windows."
> 
> The spokesman said three other crew members also suffered shocks and minor 
> burns as they attempted to help Mr Wells, who was trapped in the wrecked cabin.
> 
> The crew set off a satellite distress beacon after the accident and a 
> rescue helicopter went to the scene.
> 
> But the crew was able to get the trawler to Bundaberg under its own power, 
> where it docked early today.
> 
> Police have impounded the trawler until their investigations are complete.




From fitl_ at omen.ru  Thu Nov 29 10:36:59 2001
From: fitl_ at omen.ru (Fitline)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:36:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Invitation...
Message-ID: <200111291836.KAA17546@toad.com>



If you want to live better. Go there!!!
http://www.336.fitline.com

This is no spam

You are receiving this message because:

You posted a link on our FFA page.




From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu  Thu Nov 29 02:42:36 2001
From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: 29 Nov 2001 10:42:36 GMT
Subject: zks freedom websecure trial (now for Linux!)
References: <20011128232318.A7944200@exeter.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9u53es$ihv$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>


In article <20011128232318.A7944200 at exeter.ac.uk>,
Adam Back   wrote:
>I noticed some discussion of the SafeWeb cancellation of free
>services here.
>
>ZKS announced yesterday freedom websecure, which is an anonymous web
>browsing system with more robust redirection and script blocking than
>systems that rely on html re-writing.  There is a free trial offered
>for a couple of months.
>
>	http://www.freedom.net/products/websecure/
>
>Unfortunately it only works as shipped with IE on windows in this
>version.

But there's an unofficial, open-source Linux client also available:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/websecure4linux/

An excerpt from the README:

---8<---8<---8<---
                            WebSecure4Linux

This is a really simple, quick-and-dirty Linux client for the
Freedom(r) WebSecure service from Zero-Knowledge Systems.
(See http://www.freedom.net/products/websecure/ for more info.)

Note that you will need to sign up for the service by obtaining a
WebSecure activation code and creating a user account and password before
this client will operate.  Trial activation codes, available until the
end of January 2002, can be obtained from:

                   http://www.freedom.net/trial.html

Activation codes are sent to your e-mail address. (Once your account has
been created, you might want to skip the client download.  Unless, of
course, you also run Windows.)


*** IMPORTANT ***
This is not supported by Zero-Knowledge Systems AT ALL; it's completely
unofficial.  You can try to get support at the SourceForge project
page: http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/websecure4linux/

Right now, it supports http, and on linux 2.4, https as well.  It
shouldn't be hard to get the latter to work on 2.2 as well.

This program is covered by the GPL; see the file "COPYING" for details.


Some extra notes:

It's not feature-complete.  It doesn't manage your cookies, for example.
[The tricky bit is just that this code forks *a lot*, and you'd need to
put all the cookie info in persistent files, and put good locks around
all accesses to them.]

It's not speedy.  Your performance will suck.  It's written in perl,
and forks for each web connection.

It's not supported.  If it breaks, you get to keep both pieces.

---8<---8<---8<---

Have fun!

   - Ian




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Nov 29 10:54:52 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:54:52 -0800
Subject: Publicizing CDC officials' home phone nos, stalking
Message-ID: <3C06847C.93E63868@sarin.com>


poorly excerpted from
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000095027nov29.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dcalifornia

On
Wednesday,
San Francisco
 law
 enforcement
 officials
 agreed. Police
 arrested
 Michael
 Petrelis and
 ACT UP San
 Francisco
 spokesman
 David
 Pasquarelli on charges of criminal
 conspiracy, stalking and making
 terrorist threats against newspaper reporters and public health
officials. The pair,
 who are allies, are accused of calling reporters and health officials
at home
 repeatedly past midnight, making threats and leaving obscene sexual
messages.
 Together, they are charged with 27 felonies and misdemeanors.

                      Both men have acknowledged making or encouraging
late-night calls, sometimes
                      using foul language, but have denied making
threats. They cite the need for a
                      "new phase of activism" to combat what they call
false public health studies and
                      biased news articles that have scared the gay
community and discouraged gay
                      sex.

                      "I did not make any death threats. I did not make
any bomb threats," Petrelis
                      said. "Was I using abusive language? Well, yeah."

                      The men were held in lieu of $500,000 bail.

                      Petrelis has acknowledged publicizing the home
phone numbers of top officials
                      at the federal Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention in Atlanta. And, on
                      posters and the ACT UP San Francisco Web site,
Pasquarelli's group has
                      superimposed swastikas and other Nazi insignia on
a picture of a top San
                      Francisco public health official, Dr. Jeffrey
Klausner, calling for his ouster.




From declan at well.com  Thu Nov 29 08:42:10 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:42:10 -0500
Subject: IP: DOJ's Already Monitoring Modems (fwd)
In-Reply-To: ; from Eugene.Leitl@lrz.uni-muenchen.de on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 01:09:47PM +0100
References: 
Message-ID: <20011129114210.B14522@cluebot.com>


Transcript's up at politchbot.com.

On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 01:09:47PM +0100, Eugene Leitl wrote:
> >DOJ's Already Monitoring Modems
> >By Declan McCullagh and Ben Polen
> >
> >4:42 p.m. Nov. 28, 2001 PST
> >
> >WASHINGTON -- The Department of Justice already is using its new
> >anti-terrorism powers to monitor cable modem users without obtaining
> >a judge's permission first.
> >
> >A top Bush administration official lauded the controversial USA
> >Patriot Act at a Senate hearing on Wednesday, saying that the new
> >abilities have let police obtain information in investigations that
> >was previously unavailable.
> >
> >"We would not have been able to do (this) under prior law without a
> >specific court order," said Michael Chertoff, assistant attorney
> >general in the Justice Department's criminal division.
> >
> >...
> >
> >http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,48711,00.html
> 
> 
> For archives see:
> http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From gbroiles at parrhesia.com  Thu Nov 29 11:48:18 2001
From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:48:18 -0800
Subject: Order Now:  True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace
  Frontier
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011129113648.041daec0@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 11:45 PM 11/23/2001 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>[Note from Matt:  I made a small wager in palladium that Vinge's True 
>Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier would be available to 
>order prior to Jan. 1, 2002 with a well known Cypherpunk.  And I 
>won.   Acct# 101893.]

Mr. or Ms. Well Known Cypherpunk may need to get their wallet out soon, 
because Amazon reports that at 7 AM today they shipped the copy of True 
Names that I ordered back in May.


--
Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961
4000 dead in NYC? National tragedy.
1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National 
disgrace.




From marshall at idio.com  Thu Nov 29 11:57:10 2001
From: marshall at idio.com (Marshall Clow)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:57:10 -0800
Subject: Order Now:  True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace  
  Frontier
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011129113648.041daec0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011129113648.041daec0@bivens.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: 


>At 11:45 PM 11/23/2001 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>>[Note from Matt:  I made a small wager in palladium that Vinge's True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier would be available to order prior to Jan. 1, 2002 with a well known Cypherpunk.  And I won.   Acct# 101893.]
>
>Mr. or Ms. Well Known Cypherpunk may need to get their wallet out soon, because Amazon reports that at 7 AM today they shipped the copy of True Names that I ordered back in May.

I saw two copies in Barnes & Noble's bricks and mortar store last night.
-- 
-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Idio Software   
Hey! Who messed with my anti-paranoia shot?




From adam at homeport.org  Thu Nov 29 09:26:40 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:26:40 -0500
Subject: It's just inevitable
Message-ID: <20011129122640.A29513@weathership.homeport.org>


>"One former senior F.B.I. official described the investigation this
>way: "When you send a whole lot of agents out after a whole lot of
>people, they're going to find some who committed various crimes. It's
>just inevitable."
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/29/national/29DETA.html

(The article focuses on the fact that only about 1% of the 1200
detainees are suspected of terrorist involvement.  It's a crime that
they still haven't gotten due process, and we haven't seen their
names...)

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Thu Nov 29 04:09:47 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:09:47 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: DOJ's Already Monitoring Modems (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 04:01:35 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: DOJ's Already Monitoring Modems


>From: Monty Solomon 
>
>DOJ's Already Monitoring Modems
>By Declan McCullagh and Ben Polen
>
>4:42 p.m. Nov. 28, 2001 PST
>
>WASHINGTON -- The Department of Justice already is using its new
>anti-terrorism powers to monitor cable modem users without obtaining
>a judge's permission first.
>
>A top Bush administration official lauded the controversial USA
>Patriot Act at a Senate hearing on Wednesday, saying that the new
>abilities have let police obtain information in investigations that
>was previously unavailable.
>
>"We would not have been able to do (this) under prior law without a
>specific court order," said Michael Chertoff, assistant attorney
>general in the Justice Department's criminal division.
>
>...
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,48711,00.html


For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From petro at bounty.org  Thu Nov 29 13:11:21 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:11:21 -0800
Subject: Declans testimony;Clone me!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 05:30 AM, measl at mfn.org wrote:

>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, mattd wrote:
>
>> As an entertainment journalist with a disability
>
> Talk about massive understatements...

	More like massively redundant.

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From petro at bounty.org  Thu Nov 29 13:36:31 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:36:31 -0800
Subject: HDCP break and DMCA
In-Reply-To: <3C028A61.D0D511BF@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <2731ED96-E511-11D5-BE2C-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 10:31 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>     But as I said, most professors are being much more careful about
> getting permission beforehand and most copy places are being more
> careful about what they sell.

	If I remember the results correctly, Kinko's keeps track of what 
they copy and sends the publishers a certain amount.

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From mtrieb at home.com  Thu Nov 29 10:42:09 2001
From: mtrieb at home.com (Matthew Trieb)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:42:09 -0500
Subject: Show your patriotism! with Osama Toilet Paper! Targets!
 Urinal Pads! and Voodoo Dolls!
References: <200111291658.KAA11426@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3C068181.E93A4558@home.com>


Let me get this straight... this idjut spams cypherpunks, and then
blames any trouble he gets on terrorists? 

Osama H wrote:
> 
> Show your patriotism!  Put Osama in his place and support a good cause!
> 
> Wipe with him!
> Shoot at him!
> Pee on him!
> Stick pins in his Voodoo Doll!
> 
> Check it out!       http://www.IHateTerroristsToo.com
> 
> p.s.  Cool Patriotic T's too! Our server at
> www.ihateterrorists.com was temporarily crashed by
> cyber-terrorists!  We'll be back there soon!




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 11:49:49 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:49:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CDR: Re: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:

> > Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
>
> Its not censorship if its not the government.

Bullshit. Any time ANY(!!!) party interferes with your free expression it
is censorship.


-----

The above are your words, you've said them.  Congratulations, you've just
contradicted yourself, and therefore are wrong.  Again.  Gee, what a
surprise.


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------






From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 11:49:49 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:49:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011128151352.007c0840@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:

> > Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
> 
> Its not censorship if its not the government.

Bullshit. Any time ANY(!!!) party interferes with your free expression it
is censorship.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From cortson at csinet.net  Thu Nov 29 10:54:06 2001
From: cortson at csinet.net (cortson at csinet.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:54:06 -0500
Subject: Announcing Bruce Crampton's Sports Perfomance
Message-ID: <200111291852.KAA20447@toad.com>


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, ANNOUNCEMENT

PGA Touring Professional Bruce Crampton unveils his new digital swing analysis system.  Bruce Crampton's 
Sports Performance offers the highest technology for digital video and computer analysis of
sports motions.  The system uses 10 digital cameras running at 240fps and the proprietary computer software is 
the finest in the world.  This includes golf, tennis, baseball etc...  The system is available as a turnkey with 
training and all necessary equipment for interested teaching facilities, instructors, clubs or resorts worldwide along 
with the license to use Bruce Crampton's name and likeness!  Contact Bruce's PGA Tour Player Manager, Mike 
Cortson, at cortson at csinet.net or call 219-340-3890 for more details on adding this revolutionary system to your 
facility.  You can book a lesson or contract us to set up your own resort training center or teaching facility with 
this revolutionary instructional system.  Tour pros and college players are using this system to improve their 
games, you and your guests should be too.  We look forward to hearing from 
you soon.  G'day!

Mike Cortson
attorney at law
PGA Tour Player Manager




From cortson at csinet.net  Thu Nov 29 10:54:10 2001
From: cortson at csinet.net (cortson at csinet.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:54:10 -0500
Subject: Announcing Bruce Crampton's Sports Perfomance
Message-ID: <200111291852.fATIqJU15251@ak47.algebra.com>


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, ANNOUNCEMENT

PGA Touring Professional Bruce Crampton unveils his new digital swing analysis system.  Bruce Crampton's 
Sports Performance offers the highest technology for digital video and computer analysis of
sports motions.  The system uses 10 digital cameras running at 240fps and the proprietary computer software is 
the finest in the world.  This includes golf, tennis, baseball etc...  The system is available as a turnkey with 
training and all necessary equipment for interested teaching facilities, instructors, clubs or resorts worldwide along 
with the license to use Bruce Crampton's name and likeness!  Contact Bruce's PGA Tour Player Manager, Mike 
Cortson, at cortson at csinet.net or call 219-340-3890 for more details on adding this revolutionary system to your 
facility.  You can book a lesson or contract us to set up your own resort training center or teaching facility with 
this revolutionary instructional system.  Tour pros and college players are using this system to improve their 
games, you and your guests should be too.  We look forward to hearing from 
you soon.  G'day!

Mike Cortson
attorney at law
PGA Tour Player Manager




From pxj012001jj at excite.com  Wed Nov 28 22:00:55 2001
From: pxj012001jj at excite.com (pxj012001jj at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:00:55 +0800
Subject: ... Time:6:00:55 AM
Message-ID: <200111291321.fATDLFk21243@ak47.algebra.com>

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Service.  To view the original message content,  open the attached message.
If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then
open it using a viewer that can display the original character set. 
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From pxj012001jj at excite.com  Wed Nov 28 22:00:55 2001
From: pxj012001jj at excite.com (pxj012001jj at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:00:55 +0800
Subject: ... Time:6:00:55 AM
Message-ID: <200111291321.FAA01570@toad.com>

This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet
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From pxj012001jj at excite.com  Wed Nov 28 22:00:55 2001
From: pxj012001jj at excite.com (pxj012001jj at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:00:55 +0800
Subject: ... Time:6:00:55 AM
Message-ID: <200111291324.HAA10702@einstein.ssz.com>

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From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Nov 29 14:04:25 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:04:25 -0800
Subject: Calif's online birth records questioned (ID, privacy, etc)
Message-ID: <3C06B0E9.B3034BE6@sarin.com>


             http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAGJMM2NUC.html

     Calif. Lawmakers Question Availability of Birth Records Online
               By Jennifer ColemanAssociated Press Writer
                         Published: Nov 29, 2001
SACRAMENTO (AP) - California birth records - available online through
genealogy sites - could be used to create false identity documents, a
state lawmaker warned.

But even privacy advocates admit limiting access to the public records
won't solve the problem of identity theft, or the production of fake
identification cards, such as those used by the men suspected in the
Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

State Sen. Jackie Speier said Wednesday she was appalled that California
officials sold an index of birth records dating back to 1905 to
genealogy site RootsWeb.com.

With a few clicks of the mouse, Speier demonstrated at a Senate hearing
on privacy how easily she could find information such as date of birth
and mother's maiden name for herself - and state Attorney General Bill
Lockyer.

That information is often used by banks as identifiers for transferring
funds, she said.

The Department of Health Services sold the index twice this year for
about $900 each, officials said. The state doesn't keep records of who
buys the indices.

"The index is a public record. We are compelled to provide that
information" under the California Public Records Act, said Mike Rodrian,
chief of the DHS's center for health statistics.

Calls to RootsWeb.com by The Associated Press seeking comment were not
immediately returned.

Copies of birth certificates are available through county registrars or
through the state vital records office in Sacramento, said DHS
spokeswoman Lea Brooks.

Though the state database contains "two of the three key pieces of
information needed to commit fraud" removing the list might not reduce
identity theft, said Beth Givens, executive director of the San
Diego-based Privacy Rights Clearinghouse.

"The vast majority of identity theft cases don't involve birth
certificates. Where the birth certificate factors in is primarily where
it's used by undocumented immigrants to obtain identification," she
said.

Speier said the fact that birth records are public "should raise some
red flags" especially following news that suspects in the Sept. 11
terrorist attacks were able to get fake driver's licenses in Florida and
Virginia.

Terry Francke, with the California First Amendment Coalition, said other
states have been removing public documents from the Internet following
the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

"There is a fair spate of this happening," Francke said.

In September, the U.S. Judicial Conference decided to remove online
access to federal criminal filings, saying the documents would remain
available at courthouses, but were too available on the Internet. Other
government agencies have also pulled some information off-line.

The Environmental Protection Agency no longer offers detailed reports on
chemical plants online, saying the information could be used in
terrorist attacks. The reports are still available at the agency's
office.

The debate over whether birth records are public records should be
focused on if the documents "give the people the ability to keep an eye
on their government, or is it providing access to people's personal
information," said Gary Daniels, of the National Center Against
Censorship.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 12:08:12 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:08:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: playstation? play dead. 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130080444.00a205e0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, mattd wrote:

> stupidity is the only universal crime;  the sentence is death, there is
> no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity."
> --Robert A. Heinlein

And a lot of times being 'smart' doesn't help either. It is a question of
how long or when, not if.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Nov 29 14:10:21 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:10:21 -0800
Subject: Photog arrested for shooting nuke plant
Message-ID: <3C06B24D.82626DB9@sarin.com>


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAZ1FW2NUC.html

Vermont Newspaper Photographer Is Taken Into Custody for Taking Pictures
                             of Nuke Plant
                 By Wilson RingAssociated Press Writer
                         Published: Nov 29, 2001
MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) - A newspaper photographer was taken into custody
by police under a 1917 Vermont treason law for taking pictures of a
nuclear power plant. But a prosecutor said he will not press charges.

Jason Henske of the Brattleboro Reformer was held by Vernon police for
two hours Wednesday before being released along with his camera and the
images.

Windham County State's Attorney Dan Davis said Thursday that after
reviewing the case, he decided not to prosecute. He would not elaborate.

Vernon police did not immediately return calls for comment.

"It makes you very angry. I think this was completely uncalled for,"
said Henske, 26.

The paper said it would use the photos Friday for a story about security
at the Vermont Yankee plant - a move the prosecutor said would be
irresponsible.

"The security at Vermont Yankee and some of the other power plants in
the state, dams, and hydroelectric generating facilities have been a
concern for law enforcement as potential targets for terrorists," Davis
said. "I think police in certain situations are justified in trying to
protect citizens from incidents which may occur at those facilities."

The treason law was passed during the opening days of U.S. involvement
in World War I. It was intended to protect railroads and other public
facilities during wartime. The offense carries up to 10 years in prison.




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 29 14:19:44 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:19:44 -0800
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <315CB5B6-E517-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 01:47 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> http://www.securityfocus.com/news/294
>>>
>>> "Once the online haunt of top cryptographers, the Cypherpunks list was
>>> characterized by its mix of revolutionary politics and advanced
>>> mathematics. This week, a founder pronounced it dead and buried"
>>
>> Somebody should tell the other seven (7) nodes (on 2 continents).
>
> That was, of course, my point :-)
>

The article is not a bad one, and actually makes some good points. 
Predictably, the headline is lurid and derogatory.

Fact is, lists and other fora have lifecycles just like anything else. 
The peak for the list was no doubt in the 1993-4 period, when Clipper 
was hot news, and when many ideas were being exposed to lots of others 
for the first time. By 1995, there were already schism lists forming, 
lists with allegedly higher-minded goals. And the original focus of the 
list, the deployment of various crypto protocols, began to drift into 
areas of copyright issues, legal battles, and weirdnesses from Parker, 
Bell, Vulis, and others. Other lists also covered much of the same 
material, and some no doubt flocked to the "moderated" forums maintained 
by Lewis McCarthy (who?), Perry Metzger, Declan McCullagh, and others.

Not for me. I favor not having some nanny deciding what I can post.

(Eric Murray's lne.com policies I have nothing against. In fact, he 
implemented his list shortly after I posted an article outlining similar 
reasonable policies: only subscribers to one of the CDR lists have their 
articles go through, plus all articles through remailers. This should, 
and did, cut out 98% of the spam and "hit and run" posts.)

As for John Gilmore, I wish him the best. But let us face reality: John 
was never an active poster on the list even in the 1992-94 period. Check 
the archives if you doubt me. No doubt he had other projects occupying 
this time. But let's not kid ourselves that it was "his" list. In fact, 
the genesis of the mailing list took place on the Sunday after the 
Saturday original Cypherpunks gathering. Eric Hughes, Hugh Daniel, and I 
were walking to a Noah's Bagel in Oakland and talking about how to keep 
the spirit of the previous day's meeting going. Eric or Hugh suggested a 
mailing list, and Hugh said he could set it up to run on some machine or 
another, probably the Hoptoad machine that John Gilmore owned. John gave 
his permission and the list started about a week or two after the first 
meeting.

Anyway, to those who wander away because the owner of "toad.com," a site 
that is not even part of the regular CDR system, declares us irrelevant 
I have just one message: good riddance.

I don't expect the list to ever have the significance it had in the 
glory years, but I find it a better mix of topics than most other lists. 
Fact is, most other lists are the private fiefdoms of their owners, 
whether Lewispunks (coderpunks) or Perrypunks (cryptography) or one of 
any number of other such lists ("Interesting People," "Politech," etc.).

And several of these lists are avowedly "non-political." How absurd. 
What's the point of a crypto list if there's no political angle? Yeah, 
maybe a handful of people want to chat about pure math and programming 
tricks...but not a lot, judging by the very low volumes of such 
discussions even on the "non-political" lists. And without political 
issues, what's the motivation to even talk about remailers, data havens, 
digital cash, etc.?

Fact is, a _lot_ of people on all lists, on the Net, are losing sight of 
"why we fight."

While we don't need politics of the Democrat vs. Republican kind, or 
even the libertarian vs. socialist kind, without some goals about where 
crypto can take us there is not much left except obscure debates about 
Rijndael and elliptic curves and other applied number theory obscuria.

One of the lifecycle aspects of all lists is boredom. Those who found 
the Cypherpunks ideas exciting in 1994 moved on a few years later. Some 
joined companies, some even formed companies.

All predictable.

The fact that John is now pulling the plug is one of the few surprises 
of recent years....I thought his site at toad had gone away several 
years ago! That's when he announced he was shutting it down. That he let 
it dribble on a dumping ground for those not smart enough to find the 
cyberpass.net, algebra.com, sunder.net, lne.com, or Choate's site 
doesn't mean his node was "the list."

The more things change...

So, I wish him well. I am thankful that he let Hugh Daniel host the list 
on one of his machines in the 1992-96 period. But rumors of the death of 
Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated.

--Tim May




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Nov 29 14:28:37 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:28:37 -0800
Subject: Judges still don't understand copying
Message-ID: <3C06B695.95CC0451@sarin.com>


http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-cad.htm

Decryption in the
   case of CSS requires a set of "player keys" contained in compliant
   DVD players, as well as an understanding of the CSS encryption
   algorithm.  Without the player keys and the algorithm, a DVD player
   cannot access the contents of a DVD.  With the player keys and the
   algorithm, a DVD player can display the movie on a television or a
   computer screen, but does not give a viewer the ability to use the
   copy function of the computer to copy the movie or to manipulate the
   digital content of the DVD. --  JON O. NEWMAN, Circuit Judge.

Hey Judge, here's a clue: the fact that a licensed DVD player knows
a password to the content on a disk does NOT prohibit copying the
medium.

Here's another clue:
All your hollywood are belong to us; we just need the bandwidth to
swap them.  If DeCSS were wiped off the earth, licensed players would
still play swapped movies.




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Nov 29 12:43:20 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:43:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: R.I.P. Cypherpunks
Message-ID: 



http://www.securityfocus.com/news/294

"Once the online haunt of top cryptographers, the Cypherpunks list was
characterized by its mix of revolutionary politics and advanced
mathematics. This week, a founder pronounced it dead and buried" 


-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 12:48:55 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:48:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: R.I.P. Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> 
> http://www.securityfocus.com/news/294
> 
> "Once the online haunt of top cryptographers, the Cypherpunks list was
> characterized by its mix of revolutionary politics and advanced
> mathematics. This week, a founder pronounced it dead and buried" 

Somebody should tell the other seven (7) nodes (on 2 continents).

The reality is we declared the founder and his list dead long ago. Wonder
if they'd print that...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From petro at bounty.org  Thu Nov 29 15:06:45 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:06:45 -0800
Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions
In-Reply-To: <72390FCA-E2DB-11D5-9F69-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 04:37 PM, Tim May wrote:
> Paranoia can be a dangerous thing.

	So can it's absence.

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Nov 29 13:47:32 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:47:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: R.I.P. Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> > 
> > http://www.securityfocus.com/news/294
> > 
> > "Once the online haunt of top cryptographers, the Cypherpunks list was
> > characterized by its mix of revolutionary politics and advanced
> > mathematics. This week, a founder pronounced it dead and buried" 
> 
> Somebody should tell the other seven (7) nodes (on 2 continents).

That was, of course, my point :-)


-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Thu Nov 29 15:52:45 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:52:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: R.I.P. Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
  from "measl@mfn.org" at Nov 29, 2001 03:47:32 PM
Message-ID: <200111292352.fATNqjt31928@artifact.psychedelic.net>


>> "Once the online haunt of top cryptographers, the Cypherpunks list was
>> characterized by its mix of revolutionary politics and advanced
>> mathematics. This week, a founder pronounced it dead and buried" 

Years ago, John Gilmore pre-emptively tried to kill the Cypherunks list by
first attempting to censor it, and then giving everyone very short notice
that he would cease carrying the list at Toad.

When the list became even more popular, and distributed, John Gilmore kept
his node running, despite the fact it wasn't connected to any of the other
nodes, propagated huge amounts of spam, and wasn't officially part of the
new system.

Now that years have gone by since John Gilmore has made any meaningful
contribution to the Cypherpunks list, he sends out an "official"
announcement that Toad, which should have stopped carrying Cypherpunks a
long time ago, and isn't really even a legitimate node in the new scheme
of distribution, will now cease carrying Cypherpunks traffic.

This is spun by a clueless ReportWhore into a story that a "Founder" of
Cypherpunks has officially announced its demise.

Vulis had a nickname for Gilmore.  It began with a "C."

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Nov 28 21:03:57 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:03:57 +1100
Subject: Bell Arguments 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011129154607.00a58e70@pop.useoz.com>


"Scary" AP stars."
Mmm, sandy sandfort among others pissed on AP from a great height.I was 
going to call him for my defence until arbusto made that moot.
It is scary that in theory AP could work without killing anyone who didnt 
want to commit suicide.

"They knew I wasn't planning to kill federal agents", Bell said this month. 
"They were scared because I had written something that shows a way to 
eliminate government. They were afraid I could convince the public that I 
could replace existing government for no more than a 10th or 20th of its 
current cost."

Cryptoanarchy must supercede 'money' and 'justice'. Operation soft 
drill,mass civil disobedience and a general strike for Cryptoanarchy and 
FREEDOM!
mattd aka proffr                           Death threat to GWBush inserted 
by the vic.pol.com.squad.




From rs2183 at addr15.addr.com  Thu Nov 29 16:07:54 2001
From: rs2183 at addr15.addr.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:07:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Order Now:  True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace  
  Frontier
In-Reply-To: 
  from Anonymous User at "Nov 29, 2001 11:34:18 pm"
Message-ID: <200111300008.fAU089C46288@addr15.addr.com>


> Really-From - Well Known Cypherpunk
> 
> I'd be happy to be wrong here, but the bet ain't over till the
> fat lady ships the books.  Amazon's promised to accept orders before,
> and while we're closer to the promised "this time for sure" date
> than I've seen in the past, it's still just a promise.

FWIW, I've had it on order from Amazon for over 2 years.  
Checking today, delivery is still "unknown".




From weidai at eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 16:11:40 2001
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:11:40 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: ; from
  tcmay@got.net on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 03:05:18PM -0800
References: 
Message-ID: <20011129161140.A18624@eskimo.com>


On Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 03:05:18PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> For many years some of us have argued strongly for "reputation" as a 
> core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the 
> phrase "reputation capital."
> 
> Reputation is an easily understandable concept which explains a lot 
> about how imperfect protocols in the real world nevertheless "work." I 
> won't go into what reputation is, even as defined by folks like us.
> 
> But there are many aspects of reputation which lead to problems:
> 
> 1. The assumption that an agent or actor possesses a "reputation." A 
> kind of scalar number attached to a person, a bank, an institution, or 
> even a nym.

But there is a scalar number attached to a person which deserves the name
"reputation capital", namely his own judgement of what his reputation is
worth. The idea of reputation capital solves an important problem: How do
we prevent nyms from doing bad things, disappearing, and coming back under
a different nym? If a nym has a positive reputation capital, then
disappearing is costly, so that provides a disincentive to do bad things. 

> 2. When in fact different people have different assessments of some 
> agent's reputation. Thus suggesting strongly that reputation is not 
> something attached as simply as above.

Yes, that's why we should distinguish between reputation and reputation
capital.

> 3. All of the nonsense about how "Alice's reputation has been harmed," 
> deriving from the faulty notion of this scalar property attached to 
> Alice.

But "Alice's reputation capital has been harmed" is not nonsense. That
just means Alice thinks her reputation is now worth less than before.

> Aren't we stuck with reputation?
> 
> No, a broader ontology of objects and beliefs about them is a better way 
> to go.
> 
> The "reputation of the dollar" is related to my belief, and the belief 
> of billions of others around the planet, that for whatever reason a 
> piece of paper with the right markings on it will in fact be accepted by 
> billions of others, by millions of small banks and moneychangers, and 
> even by the U.S. Government. And the related belief that loans, IOUs, 
> promissory notes, bonds, and numerous other instruments denominated in 
> these "dollars" will very likely be accepted or exchanged, blah blah, by 
> millions or billions of other actors. Such is not the case with Monopoly 
> money or even with E-gold.
> 
> Thus, what is the "reputation of the dollar"? Is it because of foolproof 
> anti-forgery measures? Is it because of the laws of the U.S.? Etc.?
> 
> No, it is a kind of collective hallucination.

There are lots of situations where Alice does X only because she expects
Bob to do Y, and Bob does Y only because he expects Alice to do X. Money
is an example of this, and so are virtually all other social phenomena. I
would call this collective reality, not collective hallucination. 

> Before James Donald freaks out and cites Objectivist arguments that Some 
> Things Are Real, etc., let me point out that "collective hallucination" 
> is mostly a cute phrase. In actuality, our perception of reality is more 
> than just an opium dream. Empiricism, falsifiability, Popper, all that 
> good stuff. But our monetary system is vastly less provably real than 
> the world of atoms and stars is. Because money is fundamentally about 
> bets on the future: will something be exchanged for something else, will 
> governments support what they print, what will the dollar be worth in 5 
> years, etc.

I don't see why our monetary system is less provably real than the world
of atoms and stars. Every proton in an atom can spontaneously decay.
Everyone in the world can spontaneously decide to stop accepting US
dollars as payment. It's all a matter of probabilities.

> All crypto is economics. All money is based on belief. All a matter of 
> "betting," of risk/benefit analysis. Related concepts, of course.

All crypto is economics. Unfortunately the economics doesn't seem to favor
much of the more advanced crypto we're interested in. Just to cite one
example, there are a small number of people who value privacy very highly,
and a larger number of people who value privacy somewhat. But there's no
way to charge them different prices to provide the same untraceable
communcation services to them. Since you need a large number of users to
provide cover traffic, you have to charge a low price for everyone, and
that doesn't seems to be a profitable business.

Anonymous ecash seems to have this problem, plus many more.

I think we may have been mislead by the extremely favorable economics of
basic crypto (i.e. exponential attack/defense cost ratios for encryption
and authentication) into thinking that all crypto have favorable
economics.

> Even slightly flawed protocols still "work," given the right embeddings 
> in other systems. (For example, a common flaw cited with remailers is 
> that if there is not enough cover traffic, traceability still exists. 
> But exactly the same flaw exists with money: try getting untraceability 
> with coins if only a few coins exist. Ditto for bearer bonds. Ditto for 
> lots of things  where the "protocol fails for small N" but works 
> reasonably well--in the "betting" sense--when a lot of actors are 
> trading a lot of coins and currency.
> 
> The value of a monetary token is NOT something that is determined by 
> precise mathematical protocols. It's a value based on _belief_ or 
> _expectation_ about the behaviors of other actors, and about the future. 
> Currency suspected of being counterfeit may sell for 10 cents on the 
> dollar, to a sophisticated buyer, while currency suspected of being 
> legit may or may not sell for at or near face value. (Even perfectly 
> legit currency would sell at a discount in large quanties, probably, 
> because a buyer would be a money launderer. Hence the discount for risk. 
> That is, a market decision based on the obvious tradeoffs.)
> 
> Back to reputations.
> 
> Seen as part of a larger ecology of a "market construction of reality," 
> there are no fixed or absolute values, no fixed or absolute truths. Some 
> assertions are "many nines" likely to be true, and some are even 
> constructed to be true (*)
> 
> (* As in "2 + 2 = 4," though the streetwise person who says "What's the 
> trick?" is realizing that even "known to be true" assertions may not be 
> true, as in base 3. Magicians and con men have known this for a long 
> time.)
> 
> Thus, there is no fixed "reputation" of either a person, an idea, or a 
> unit of value. Everything is a matter of belief, of expectation...
>
> Instead of an ontology of objects and their attached methods and 
> property lists, including "reputations" and "monetary values," we should 
> be thinking in terms of these objects as just other actors, with each 
> actor maintaining his own internal model of "possible worlds" (how he 
> thinks the other actors will behave, what he thinks may be future 
> outcomes, what his own goals and expectations are). Seen this way, there 
> is no "reputation" or "value" that is universal. Everything is relative. 
> Everything is seen through the light of internal states/possible worlds.
> 
> This is the market view of reality. There is no "Reality." Just 
> ensembles of actors, various facets, incomplete knowledge...all 
> lubricated by betting. Every street kid knows this.

Isn't this just standard Baysian probability theory/decision theory/game
theory? Where are you going with this?




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 14:20:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:20:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: R.I.P. Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> That was, of course, my point :-)

I guess I'm humor impaired :)


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
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From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Thu Nov 29 16:32:51 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:32:51 -0800
Subject: fuel injected firearm
Message-ID: <200111300032.fAU0Wpw79238@mailserver2b.hushmail.com>


Have any of the shootingpunks on the list heard of constructing a firearm from something akin to a internal combustion chamber?




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 14:34:38 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:34:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: <315CB5B6-E517-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Fact is, 
> ...
> for the first time. By 1995, there were already schism lists forming, 
> ...

Fact is, this is revisionist crap.

They closed the original list. Members (none of the original founders
including Timmy) decided that this was not acceptable so they fixed the
problem of having any one person in charge of the list. In the process the
new lists decided to broaden the topics to crypto, civil liberties, and
economics since these topics have always been hot on the list.

Rich, motivated guy like yourself could start their own Cypherpunks list
with no hassle and minimum cost. It's interesting that you bitch about
what other people do with their list but you don't have the gumption to do
anything about it (just like when the original list you helped found
floundered because of incompetent handling).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




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From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 29 16:53:03 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:53:03 -0800
Subject: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: <200111300032.fAU0Wpw79238@mailserver2b.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <9BDFBE30-E52C-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 04:32 PM, keyser-soze at hushmail.com 
wrote:

> Have any of the shootingpunks on the list heard of constructing a 
> firearm from something akin to a internal combustion chamber?

H&K was a prime contractor on the "caseless ammunition" system being 
considered for a bullpup rifle to replace the .223 variants. Fired three 
flechette-like projectiles, no case. (Cases add weight, and in principle 
one could dispense with them.)

In principle one could also do what you are suggesting, by adding the 
incendiary ingredient, the oxiding ingredient, and the projectile all 
separately. I don't see a lot of advantages to this, as then running out 
of any one of the three means the remaining items are useless 
deadweight. Makes more sense to combine the three, whether in a 
conventional cartridge or in the caseless system. That guarantees all 
three are in equal supply, and in the right stoichiometric ratio, and 
also allows for better quality control (that is, cartridge makers spend 
a lot of effort fine-tuning the geometries and mixes).

If you mean something that runs on fairly conventional fuel, such as 
diesel or gasoline or alcohol, t's unlikely that enough muzzle velocity 
will be achievable in a reasonable-length barrel.

I did see a GyroJet pistol once. A rocket pistol, firing little 
rockets.  Early 60s. Very expensive. And suffered from the fact that 
each little rocket had to accelerate up to speed. Lots of chance for the 
target to move. Chief advantage was next to no recoil. Which is why 
rocket designs tend to be used with man-fired heavier pieces, e.g., 
RPGs, Redeyes, Stingers, etc.


--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Nov 29 17:22:51 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:22:51 -0800
Subject: HDCP break and DMCA
In-Reply-To: <2731ED96-E511-11D5-BE2C-00306577F12E@bounty.org>
References: <3C028A61.D0D511BF@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011129172251.007d6e40@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:36 PM 11/29/01 -0800, Petro wrote:
>On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 10:31 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
>>     But as I said, most professors are being much more careful about
>> getting permission beforehand and most copy places are being more
>> careful about what they sell.
>
>	If I remember the results correctly, Kinko's keeps track of what 
>they copy and sends the publishers a certain amount.

If this were Germany, you'd pay a tax to publishers for every
ream of blank paper you bought...




From ericm at lne.com  Thu Nov 29 17:30:20 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:30:20 -0800
Subject: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: <200111300032.fAU0Wpw79238@mailserver2b.hushmail.com>; from
  keyser-soze@hushmail.com on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 04:32:51PM -0800
References: <200111300032.fAU0Wpw79238@mailserver2b.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <20011129173020.A7819@slack.lne.com>


On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 04:32:51PM -0800, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:
> Have any of the shootingpunks on the list heard of constructing a firearm from something akin to a internal combustion chamber?


You can buy one at Home Depot!
It's called a cordless nailer.  Powered by "fuel cells"
which are probably propane.  The Porter-Cable "Bammer" is
one model.


Eric




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Nov 29 17:33:53 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:33:53 -0800
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: <315CB5B6-E517-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011129173353.007d9790@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:19 PM 11/29/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>
>Fact is, lists and other fora have lifecycles just like anything else. 
>The peak for the list was no doubt in the 1993-4 period, when Clipper 
>was hot news, and when many ideas were being exposed to lots of others 

There is also the FAQ-ization of a contentful group.  You yourself
have (rightfully, usefully) pointed to your cryptnomicon tome
and cypherpunk archives rather than regurgitate something already written.


>Anyway, to those who wander away because the owner of "toad.com," a site 
>that is not even part of the regular CDR system, declares us irrelevant 
>I have just one message: good riddance.

The toadlist is infested with spam, and most posters have migrated to
something
more pleasant like lne.com (blessed be the lne.com folks).


>And several of these lists are avowedly "non-political." How absurd. 
>What's the point of a crypto list if there's no political angle? Yeah, 
>maybe a handful of people want to chat about pure math and programming 
>tricks...but not a lot, judging by the very low volumes of such 
>discussions even on the "non-political" lists. And without political 
>issues, what's the motivation to even talk about remailers, data havens, 
>digital cash, etc.?

There are lists which are more exclusively technical.  The value of this
list is conversing with tech saavy futurists with an interest in social
aspects.  


>The fact that John is now pulling the plug is one of the few surprises 
>of recent years....I thought his site at toad had gone away several 
>years ago! That's when he announced he was shutting it down. 
That he let 
>it dribble on a dumping ground for those not smart enough to find the 
>cyberpass.net, algebra.com, sunder.net, lne.com, or Choate's site 
>doesn't mean his node was "the list."

Yes!  His contribution was very useful and generous at a critical time, 
but it is not a negative thing at all that he closes that spamchannel.


>But rumors of the death of 
>Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated.

Cypherpunks never die, they just get tarred and gzipped.




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Nov 29 17:36:08 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:36:08 -0800
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: 
References: <315CB5B6-E517-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011129173608.007dcab0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 04:34 PM 11/29/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Rich, motivated guy like yourself could start their own Cypherpunks list
>with no hassle and minimum cost. 

Um, Jim, despite the slump, there still plenty of free lowbrow sites for
Joe Random to start a mailing list for anything, so Tim's financial
status is irrelevent.





 






  







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 15:46:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:46:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Calif's online birth records questioned (ID, privacy, etc)
In-Reply-To: <3C06B0E9.B3034BE6@sarin.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:

> But even privacy advocates admit limiting access to the public records

ROTFLMAO


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Nov 29 17:49:50 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:49:50 -0800
Subject: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: <200111300032.fAU0Wpw79238@mailserver2b.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011129174950.007df530@pop.sprynet.com>


At 04:32 PM 11/29/01 -0800, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:
>Have any of the shootingpunks on the list heard of constructing a firearm
from something akin to a internal combustion chamber?

This is a development of the classic tennisball/tenniscan/volitile aerosol
cannon.

I think you need very high compression ratio.

You would be classed as a firearm, at least in Calif, where
combustion is a no-no (but compressed air and springs are ok).




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Nov 29 17:50:27 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:50:27 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011129161140.A18624@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011129175027.007d1240@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:41 PM 11/29/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Wei Dai wrote:
>
>> But there is a scalar number attached to a person which deserves the name
>> "reputation capital", namely his own judgement of what his reputation is
>> worth.
>
>What's your number?
>
>People don't think of themselves as a '5'. Even Hitler thought he was
>the good guy in the fight.
>

And Hitler probably valued his reputation.  So what? 



 






  







From petro at bounty.org  Thu Nov 29 18:07:45 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:07:45 -0800
Subject: Anonymizing Scam
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <0BB4BD65-E537-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 07:06 PM, Tim May wrote:
> On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 06:24 PM, Anonymous wrote:
>> The following message by Lance Cottrell responding to John Young's
>> accusations was sent to the cypherpunks list but apparently never
>> appeared here.
>
> "It seems a hypocritical position for Cypherpunks to
> take."
> Assuming that John Young speaks for "Cyphepunks" is bizarre.

	Contrast the phrase "For Cypherpunks" with "For the Cypherpunks".

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




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From: yourcheesestation2001 at yahoo.com (Linda)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:08:54 -0800
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From petro at bounty.org  Thu Nov 29 18:13:10 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:13:10 -0800
Subject: in praise of gold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 07:58 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Faustine wrote:
>>> Not all women are golddiggers.
>> They're called 'old maids'. ALL women who are interested in a
>> 'relationship' are 'golddiggers' in the sense they want to 'change' the
>> other party.
>
> Nothing like a good across the board generalization, huh Jim?

	Well, I hate to be in the position of defending Jimbo, but he's 
right--in a sense, but not just about women.

	I'd be willing to bet (should there be a way of proving it to my 
satisfaction) that in every relationship, one party would like to change 
AT LEAST 2 things about the other party.

	Of course, this then makes every person who gets into any kind of 
relationship a "gold digger".

>
> Who was she?  It's nice to see you're not bitter ;-/

	Why do you assume it was a she?

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From declan at well.com  Thu Nov 29 15:16:49 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:16:49 -0500
Subject: "True Names" is out
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011129181601.022c7d40@mail.well.com>


Arrived in the mail today, trade paperback, bah, with Tim's essay as the 
second chapter.

-Declan




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 16:41:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:41:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011129161140.A18624@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Wei Dai wrote:

> But there is a scalar number attached to a person which deserves the name
> "reputation capital", namely his own judgement of what his reputation is
> worth.

What's your number?

People don't think of themselves as a '5'. Even Hitler thought he was
the good guy in the fight.

'good', 'bad', etc. are most certainly NOT scalar.

> The idea of reputation capital solves an important problem

It solves nothing, it adds a redundent factor that does nothing but
mislead.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 16:43:32 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:43:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: <200111300032.fAU0Wpw79238@mailserver2b.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:

> Have any of the shootingpunks on the list heard of constructing a firearm 
> from something akin to a internal combustion chamber?

Stanley G. Weinbaum
"A Martian Odyssey"

Tweel, where are you?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 16:47:43 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:47:43 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war' - November 29, 2001
Message-ID: <3C06D72F.F48537D4@ssz.com>


Bush is full of shit.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/29/gen.war.against.terror/index.html

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 16:54:05 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:54:05 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Seeking Current Info on Linux Encrypted FS?
Message-ID: <3C06D8AD.447D734F@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/11/28/1549252.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 17:00:05 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:00:05 -0600
Subject: TheBostonChannel.com - Helen Thomas - It's The People's White House
Message-ID: <3C06DA15.F5B3563C@ssz.com>


http://www.thebostonchannel.com/helenthomas/1095648/detail.html

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 17:03:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:03:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: <9BDFBE30-E52C-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Tim May wrote:

> If you mean something that runs on fairly conventional fuel, such as 
> diesel or gasoline or alcohol, t's unlikely that enough muzzle velocity 
> will be achievable in a reasonable-length barrel.

See srl.org.

In particular, the natural gas gun they used in the 97 show here in
Austin. It certainly didn't have a problem blowing the tops of the trees
out several hundred yards away (and that was with the slug of air it 
ejected - as it moved through the smoke you could see the donut ring
clearly).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Thu Nov 29 19:16:26 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:16:26 -0800
Subject: fuel injected firearm
Message-ID: <200111300316.fAU3GQX40187@mailserver2c.hushmail.com>


On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:30:20 -0800, Eric Murray  wrote:
>On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 04:32:51PM -0800, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:
>> Have any of the shootingpunks on the list heard of constructing a firearm from something akin to a internal combustion chamber?
>
>
>You can buy one at Home Depot!
>It's called a cordless nailer.  Powered by "fuel cells"
>which are probably propane.  The Porter-Cable "Bammer" is
>one model.

I'll check into it.  My thought was to create a very high rate of fire, simple and effective full auto weapon for caseless ammo.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Thu Nov 29 19:53:02 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:53:02 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011129161140.A18624@eskimo.com>
References: ; from 
  tcmay@got.net on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 03:05:18PM -0800
Message-ID: <3C06921E.23156.2672FDC@localhost>


On 29 Nov 2001, at 16:11, Wei Dai wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 03:05:18PM -0800, Tim May wrote:

> But there is a scalar number attached to a person which deserves the name
> "reputation capital", namely his own judgement of what his reputation is
> worth.

Even this is not a scalar.  Since reputation cannot be bought
and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is
false.


> The idea of reputation capital solves an important problem: How 
do
> we prevent nyms from doing bad things, disappearing, and coming back under
> a different nym? If a nym has a positive reputation capital, then
> disappearing is costly, so that provides a disincentive to do bad things. 
> 

Claiming you have a concept called reputation capital doen't really
solve the problem, it just moves it back a step, leading to questions
like how does one aquire/lose reputation capital, how does one
discover another's reputation, how does one ensure that a party
violating an agreement actually will lose reputation capital,
and so on.  These questions can be answered, at least sometimes,
but usually answering them will make it clear that reputation
capital isn't a single number.
	The idea that a party to a transaction will lose more in 
reputation capital by failing to honor his obligations than he will
gain is a very useful concept. The idea that a nym has a fixed
amount of reputation capital and will lose it all with a single failure
to comply might be useful in certain simplified models, but
it doesn't accurately reflect most real world situations.

> > 2. When in fact different people have different assessments of some 
> > agent's reputation. Thus suggesting strongly that reputation is not 
> > something attached as simply as above.
> 
> Yes, that's why we should distinguish between reputation and reputation
> capital.
>

well, maybe.  But if we define reputation capital the way you did
(the value one places on one's own reputation) then it's important
to be aware that one can only know the value of one's own 
reputation capital.

> > 3. All of the nonsense about how "Alice's reputation has been harmed," 
> > deriving from the faulty notion of this scalar property attached to 
> > Alice.
> 
> But "Alice's reputation capital has been harmed" is not nonsense. That
> just means Alice thinks her reputation is now worth less than before.
> 
right.
> > Aren't we stuck with reputation?
> > 
> > No, a broader ontology of objects and beliefs about them is a better way 
> > to go.
> > 
> > The "reputation of the dollar" is related to my belief, and the belief 
> > of billions of others around the planet, that for whatever reason a 
> > piece of paper with the right markings on it will in fact be accepted by 
> > billions of others, by millions of small banks and moneychangers, and 
> > even by the U.S. Government. And the related belief that loans, IOUs, 
> > promissory notes, bonds, and numerous other instruments denominated in 
> > these "dollars" will very likely be accepted or exchanged, blah blah, by 
> > millions or billions of other actors. Such is not the case with Monopoly 
> > money or even with E-gold.
> > 
> > Thus, what is the "reputation of the dollar"? Is it because of foolproof 
> > anti-forgery measures? Is it because of the laws of the U.S.? Etc.?
> > 
> > No, it is a kind of collective hallucination.
> 
> There are lots of situations where Alice does X only because she expects
> Bob to do Y, and Bob does Y only because he expects Alice to do X. Money
> is an example of this, and so are virtually all other social phenomena. I
> would call this collective reality, not collective hallucination. 
> 

So would I, but this is just a disagreement over the terminolgy,
not the concepts.

> I don't see why our monetary system is less provably real than the world
> of atoms and stars. Every proton in an atom can spontaneously decay.
> Everyone in the world can spontaneously decide to stop accepting US
> dollars as payment. It's all a matter of probabilities.
> 

I think you're going way too far. Proton decay has never been 
observed in the real world, and people have looked for it really
hard.  Whereas a whole lot of governments (including the US
government)  have attempted to solve their debt problems
by printing a lot of paper currency, devaluing the existing currency
in the process.

> Since you need a large number of users to
> provide cover traffic, you have to charge a low price for everyone, and
> that doesn't seems to be a profitable business.
>

I'm not convinced that you do. As I've said before, there are two
fundamentally different ways of maintaining anonymity with some
sort of digital bearer certificate
1) you can ensure the "bank" can't identify the certifcates as the
ones you bought when they're cashed in or
2) you can see to it that the bank doesn't know who
"you" are when you buy the certificates in the first place.

Number 2 still seems more natural to me.   

George




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Nov 29 01:44:57 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:44:57 +1100
Subject: "I want rob london DEAD! I want his family DEAD!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011129203756.00a58ba0@pop.useoz.com>


My young friend robin banks gets carried away sometimes.Still,after reading 
what a lying weasel he is Ive dusted off operation soft drill to take a 
flying fuck at the donut eater.OSD international seeks pledges to be pooled 
and paid for the closest prediction of the slimy lawyers permanent 
retirement."Id buy that for a mojo-dollar!" kill the president, proffr.

"A strong people do not need a government"
 Emiliano Zapata




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Nov 29 20:45:36 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:45:36 -0800
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
In-Reply-To: <44DC8A1B-E4F1-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <20011129122640.A29513@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3C069E70.7148.4E7CF4@localhost>


    --
Some time ago I said that a short victorious war in a place
far away, fought by volunteers, would not do too much damage
to liberty.

And when victory was well in hand, they shut down not merely
havenco, but the entire internet access of Somalia, causing
very serious damage to the cypherpunk agenda. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     ilM2NBMZSxgRlYUxLl2tjKbAWBKaetmVDjJLrkHb
     4Qp/+5OCH1rc3D5TChs3SNEQa/RDoDehZWrm7Z9i5




From infomacao at giganetstore.com  Thu Nov 29 13:04:10 2001
From: infomacao at giganetstore.com (infomacao at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:04:10 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?As_dicas_do_Rudolfo_n=E3o_podiam_estar_mais_cinematogr=E1f?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?icas!?=
Message-ID: <022491004211db1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

As dicas do Rudolfo não podiam estar mais cinematográficas!
2 Propostas
2 Filmes
2 Lançamentos no mês de Dezembro
 
  
Dia 6 de Dezembro
"Um Sogro do Pior"- DVD
 
"Um Sogro do Pior"- VHS
  Dia 12 de Dezembro
"O Náufrago"- DVD
 
"O Náufrago "- VHS
 

Mais uma vez a giganetstore.com   dá-lhe a
oportunidade de encomendar os seus filmes favoritos antes do seu
lançamento oficial. 

Encomende já, e seja o primeiro neste Natal, a receber estes dois
fantásticos filmes em DVD ou VHS. 



  
 
  
Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http:\\www.giganetstore.com  , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços 
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From mean-green at hushmail.com  Thu Nov 29 21:23:36 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:23:36 -0800
Subject: US Pat. No. 6,219,185: Large aperture diffractive space
  telescope 
Message-ID: <200111300523.fAU5NaX46587@mailserver2b.hushmail.com>


[Intended for astronomical and continuous sub-meter earth surveillance.]

A large (10's of meters) aperture space telescope including two separate spacecraft--an optical primary objective lens functioning as a magnifying glass and an optical secondary functioning as an eyepiece. The spacecraft are spaced up to several kilometers apart with the eyepiece directly behind the magnifying glass "aiming" at an intended target with their relative orientation determining the optical axis of the telescope and hence the targets being observed. The objective lens includes a very large-aperture, very-thin-membrane, diffractive lens, e.g., a Fresnel lens, which intercepts incoming light over its full aperture and focuses it towards the eyepiece. The eyepiece has a much smaller, meter-scale aperture and is designed to move along the focal surface of the objective lens, gathering up the incoming light and converting it to high quality images. The positions of the two space craft are controlled both to maintain a good optical focus and to point at desired targets !
which may be either earth bound or celestial. 




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Nov 29 21:34:40 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:34:40 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011129161140.A18624@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <3C06A9F0.2033.7B690B@localhost>


    --
On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Wei Dai wrote:
> > But there is a scalar number attached to a person which
> > deserves the name "reputation capital", namely his own
> > judgement of what his reputation is worth.

On 29 Nov 2001, at 18:41, Jim Choate wrote:
> People don't think of themselves as a '5'. Even Hitler
> thought he was the good guy in the fight.

He was, however, well aware of that everyone else was so
deluded as to think otherwise.  Thus he would correctly value
his reputation capital as near zero. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     s07NDk+HLPwQqk0aT0IBcIx5EQfImpm5mb5DUKq
     4lvjOPV14Sjf0RQg42giSGp3BgMoPgeanqdeb+rKy




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Nov 29 21:51:33 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:51:33 -0800
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130173413.00a6b0f0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <4EE85D78-E556-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>


Fair Warning: I never, that I recall, responded to some of the inanities 
here that got a few people prosecuted. I think that this save me from 
being subpoenaed. I will respond below to the "mattd" rainman because I 
choose to. And if it results in a subpoena for me to fly to Australia 
for some trial, I will of course ignore it.

On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 10:42 PM, mattd wrote:

> "...libertarian vs. socialist .."From Tims epistle to the faithful.9-11
> certainly shook a few authoritarians out of the woodpile in both the
> libertarian and the socialist scenes.Nasty stuff.
> What happened to libertarian socialist? An R.Crumb cartoon for the
> noughties,"Im a libertarian socialist!"
>

I have no idea who you really are, "mattd," except that I hear you 
deface McDonald's restaurants and may or may not be under indictment or 
whatever by the Australian cops. Your calls to have George Bush Jr. 
killed have likely drawn interest from the polizei.  From your posts 
here, you look to have the same mental state that C.J. Parker had/has, 
and that maybe other have. To wit: fragmented sentences, discombobulated 
logic, weird juxtapositions of words. I'm beginning to think there's a 
"Rainman Syndrome" at work.

But in the event that you are not too addled to think straight, the very 
idea of a "libertarian socialist" is an oxymoron.

It doesn't compute.

Sure, we are "libertarian socialists" in a sense within our families or 
circles of friends, in a manner of speaking, but we are not coerced by 
external agents to be nice, or socialist, to our family and friends. 
Therein lies the reason why "libertarian socialist" is such an oxymoron.

If you think about this in a lucid period, you will realize why this is 
so.


--Tim May
"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize 
Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of 
conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are 
peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams




From events at cais.com  Thu Nov 29 19:09:20 2001
From: events at cais.com (David C. Dickson)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:09:20 -0500
Subject: Homeland Defense Training Conf - Mobile & Wireless - Dec 11, 2001 - Wash DC
Message-ID: <122892001115303920320@cais.com>


To:  CYPHERPUNKS at TOAD.COM

Homeland Defense Training Conference (tm)
Wireless and Mobile Communications

In support to

Consequence Management, Facility Security Operations, Inter-jurisdiction Communications, Emergency Response Teams, Law Enforcement, First Responders

See below for our outstanding list of speakers representing federal, state and local government executives and industry leaders.

Tuesday December 11, 2001
Washington, D.C.
 
Renaissance Washington DC Hotel
999 Ninth Street Northwest
Washington, DC US 20001-9000

(Just 2 Blocks from Gallery Place Metro Station)
 
Time: 7:30 AM Registration
Program Starts: 8:30 AM
Wrap-up: 3:30 PM

Continental Breakfast, Refreshments, Lunch included.



SPEAKERS CONFIRMED:


*  Ed Plaugher, Fire Chief, Arlington County, Virginia -  "Lessons-learned at the Pentagon on Spetember 11, 2001"  The on-site commander for fire and rescue efforts for Pentagon terrorist attack, September 11th.

*  National Governors Association -  "Setting Emergency Communications Priorities at the State Level - New Initiatives"

*  Kathleen Abernathy, Commissioner, Federal Communications Commission (FCC) - The main issue before the FCC today is Priority Access to the mobile communications spectrum for emergency and first responders. Commissioner Abernathy is the FCC Commissioner with lead responsibility for this issue.

*  Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, Lt. Governor, State of Maryland - "Report on the State of Maryland plans for state-wide emergency communications network" (Invited)

*  Greg Meacham, Chief, Technology Program Section, Investigative Technologies Branch, FBI

*  Ross Merlin, Telecommunications and Information Resources Manager, Office of Emergency Preparedness, HHS


.... other speakers to be announced this week.



SPECIAL NOTE: 

This message is being sent to you as a service to inform you and your organization of a training conference directed at federal and industry managers involved with Mobile and Wireless applications for Homeland Defense.

If this business communication was sent to you in error or is not of interest, please let us know by REPLY'ing to this message and place REMOVE in the SUBJECT line. We will remove your name immediately. It's not our intention to send unwanted email.

If however, you wish to receive additional information about this Conference and other Homeland Defense related training opportunities, please place SUBSCRIBE in the SUBJECT line and REPLY to this message. We will include you in future notices concerning this topic.



A LOOK BACK:

On April 26, 2001 - at the Reagan Trade Center in Washington, D.C. - Market*Access produced an important conference on Homeland Defense. The purpose of the conference was to highlight the need for a Homeland Defense program and the special needs of "first responders". Speakers included Congressman Curt Weldon of Philadelphia and leading executives from the DoD and U.S. civilian agencies. Representative Weldon brought a hush over the audience when he reminded us that it is not "if", but "when".

.... and now we are faced with a new national priority.


*  On October 23, 2001, Market*Access held a Homeland Defense Business Briefing in Washington, D.C.  Speakers included Governor Tom Ridge, newly appointed White House Director, Homeland Security.

*  On October 29, 2001, Market*Access held a Homeland Defense Conference taking a look at agency programs and initiatives.



TO GET MORE INFORMATION ABOUT OUR PAST CONFERENCES, WEBCAST, SPEAKERS AND OBTAIN FREE ACCESS TO THEIR PRESENTATION MATERIALS CALL OUR HOMELAND DEFENSE HOT-LINE AT 703-807-2027.



ABOUT THIS CONFERENCE:

The prevalence of cell phones and other wireless communications in our society had a dramatic influence on the events of 11 September 2001.  The ability of passengers to communicate with the outside world evidently played a major role in helping them formulate a plan of action. Cell phones allowed some of those trapped in the upper floors of the World Trade Center to communicate with loved ones in their final moments, and the phones may have let rescuers know that trapped victims were still alive.

The utility of cell phones and other wireless devices in shaping our response to a terrorist event has never been examined - until now. For terrorist events in general, modern and robust communications systems will play a key role in successful consequence management. Networks are the precondition, but they are not sufficient in themselves to provide a significant advantage. Communications applications designed in advance that will travel over the networks to provide for early detection and effective consequence management will make the key difference.

Market*Access will host in important training conference for industry and government focusing on agency needs and requirements in the area of Homeland Defense: Mobile and Wireless Communications.  This will be a public-level series of training presentations on the challenges ahead. We can learn how devices like cell phones, handheld computers, interactive pagers, Palm Pilots, and other PDAs can assist as important tools in the area of Homeland Defense and consequence management.  Speakers will represent federal agencies and leading security, equipment and systems suppliers.



ABOUT HOMELAND DEFENSE:

The United States and its allies face a number of new and difficult security challenges in the coming millennium. While past threats came from other states and were primarily aimed at U.S. forces or allies overseas, new challenges --- such as the proliferation of missiles and weapons of mass destruction, terrorism, and attacks on our information infrastructure --- may well involve non-state actors and has directly affected security at home. We will have to rethink basic policies, federal and state organization for national security, and the allocation of resources to meet both old and new defense tasks.

The goal of this meeting is to begin to prepare U.S. government and industry for the changes that will come about regarding wireless and mobile communications.

 

EXHIBITORS MAY INCLUDE:

*  Wireless security 
*  Mobile and wireless communications 
*  Handhelds, Laptops 
*  Security planners and consultants 
*  Telecommunications products and services 
*  Federal systems integrators 
*  Disaster recovery and facility security 
.... and many others 
 


WHO SHOULD ATTEND:

*  Federal systems integrators and solutions providers 
*  State and local domestic preparedness teams 
*  U.S. Civil agencies with a charter to support Homeland Defense 
*  Computer and information systems security infrastructure executives 
*  DoD Communications Managers 
*  Security professionals 
*  Team leaders for consequence management, crisis response 
*  Federal, state and local CIOs and telecommunications managers 
*  State emergency management coordinators 
*  Federal, state and local law enforcement executives 
 


WHAT YOU WILL LEARN: 

*  What are the possible programs and funding sources 
*  New products in development and on the drawing boards in terms of wireless and mobile communications and networking 
*  New initiatives being planned at the federal, state and local levels. 
*  Civil agency organization and planning 
*  DoD plans and programs 
*  Policy decisions before the FCC



SPONSORED BY:
 
Organizational Sponsors:

*  Market*Access International, Inc. 
*  INPUT Government 
....additional Organizational sponsors to be announced.
 

Corporate Sponsors:

*  Symantec Federal
*  Verizon Federal Network Systems
.... additional sponsors to be announced.




POINTS OF CONTACT: 

*  For information on exhibitor arrangements, please contact Ms. Vicki Orendorff, 703/807-2747
*  For general information about this event, please call our hotline at 703-807-2027 
*  For information on sponsorship opportunities, please contact Ms. Vicki Orendorff, 703/807-2747 



REGISTRATION FEE:

*  Industry Credit Card or Check in Advance $595 
*  Government Credit Card or Check in Advance $425 
*  Government Training Forms/Invoice $475 
*  On-site registration on the day of the conference - add $50.00 
 


REGISTRATION OPTIONS:
 
[1] To register - Phone: 703-807-2745 and speak with Ms. Kristen Brooks.
[2] Fax: registration form to 703-807-2728.



Do you need a place to stay while you're attending the conference? Here are some nearby hotels. In addition to the rates listed, you may call the hotels for government rates.

*  JW Marriott: 202-393-2000, from $269/night 
*  Renaissance: 202-898-9000, from $229/night 
*  Washington Marriott: 202-872-1500, from $189/night 
*  Grand Hyatt: 202-582-1234, from $245/night 
*  Marriott at Metro Center: 202-737-2200, from $229/night 



TO OBTAIN ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON ALL MARKET*ACCESS HOMELAND DEFENSE CONFERENCES INCLUDING THIS ONE, CALL OUR HOMELAND DEFENSE SERIES HOTLINE AT 703-807-2027.


Marketing, Conference Management and Production by:

Market*Access International, Inc.
301-455-5633




REGISTRATION FORM 


Homeland Defense - Mobile & Wireless Communications

(Use additional pages as needed for multiple employees)

Attendee Name:
Title:
Company/Agency:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
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Telephone:
Fax:

Registration Fee:

Industry Credit Card or Check in Advance $595
Government Credit Card or Check in Advance $425
Government Training Forms/Invoice $475

Note: Payment requested in advance.

Please check one of the following as your form of payment:

[ ] Check

Make checks payable to: Market*Access International
Send to: Market*Access, 4301 Wilson Blvd. #1003, Arlington, VA 22203

[ ] VISA        [ ] MasterCard         [ ] American Express

Account Number: ___________________________Exp. Date___________________
Cardholder Name: ______________________________________________________
Signature (required) or telephone order


I am interested in continuing to receive updates and information by email
regarding future conferences in this area. Select one:
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Registration: Call Kristen Brooks (703) 807-2745

Fax this form to 703-807-2728. Thank you.

To register and pay on line, call our hot line at 703-807-2027 for instructions.

I would be very interested in attending a future training conference on the subject of:
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Here are email addresses of my contacts and peers who should be invited to this conference:
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To get more information about our past conferences, Webcast, speakers and obtain free access to their presentation materials call our Homeland Defense Hot-Line at 703-807-2027.





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 20:36:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:36:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: <20011129173020.A7819@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Eric Murray wrote:

> You can buy one at Home Depot!
> It's called a cordless nailer.  Powered by "fuel cells"
> which are probably propane.  The Porter-Cable "Bammer" is
> one model.

Too cool...I love (pseudo/light regulation) free market economics :)

How does it go?

"The street finds its own uses for technology."

                              W. Gibson


ps What kind of bookstore would have books about von Mises' life and
economic philosophy in their economic section but wouldn't actually carry
any of his work, what's up with that...Barnes & Nobles?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 20:38:50 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:38:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011129173608.007dcab0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:

> Um, Jim, despite the slump, there still plenty of free lowbrow sites for
> Joe Random to start a mailing list for anything, so Tim's financial
> status is irrelevent.

But Joe Random isn't a Cypherpunks Leader...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 20:39:51 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:39:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011129175027.007d1240@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:

> And Hitler probably valued his reputation.  So what? 

Hitler didn't value his reputation, he was Hitler. What he did was
justified. He was an angel among men.

There's a moral in there if you look for it.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Thu Nov 29 20:49:00 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:49:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:
> 
> > Um, Jim, despite the slump, there still plenty of free lowbrow sites for
> > Joe Random to start a mailing list for anything, so Tim's financial
> > status is irrelevent.
> 
> But Joe Random isn't a Cypherpunks Leader...

Oh my god!  The Cypherpunks have a *leader*?

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 20:57:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:57:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: in praise of gold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Petro wrote:

> > Who was she?  It's nice to see you're not bitter ;-/
> 
> 	Why do you assume it was a she?

:)


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Thu Nov 29 21:00:56 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:00:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
In-Reply-To: <3C069E70.7148.4E7CF4@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> And when victory was well in hand, they shut down not merely
> havenco, 

Looks OK to me:

Tracing route to havenco.com [207.106.3.14]

over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  r01.fl.datapacket.net [208.195.14.225] 
  2   <10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  loopback0.gw8.orl1.alter.net [137.39.8.117] 
  3    20 ms    40 ms    20 ms  165.at-1-0-0.xr1.atl1.alter.net [152.63.86.170] 
  4    10 ms    20 ms    20 ms  100.at-1-0-0.tr1.atl1.alter.net [146.188.232.82] 
  5    20 ms    31 ms    30 ms  109.at-5-0-0.tr1.dca6.alter.net [146.188.141.58] 
  6    30 ms    30 ms    30 ms  0.so-4-0-0.xr1.dca6.alter.net [152.63.11.102] 
  7    30 ms    30 ms    30 ms  0.so-1-3-0.xl1.dca6.alter.net [152.63.35.114] 
  8    30 ms    31 ms    30 ms  pos6-0.br3.dca6.alter.net [152.63.38.117] 
  9    30 ms    30 ms    40 ms  204.255.174.74 
 10    30 ms    60 ms    31 ms  mae-east-gsr.dc-core.netaxs.net [207.106.31.26] 
 11   120 ms   280 ms   310 ms  mae-east.dc-core.netaxs.net [207.106.31.29] 
 12    30 ms    30 ms    40 ms  dc-l3.dc-core.fddi0-0-100m.netaxs.net [207.106.127.102] 
 13    40 ms    40 ms    40 ms  phl-l3.phl-core.h3-0-45m.netaxs.net [207.106.127.129] 
 14    30 ms    30 ms    40 ms  l3-core1-oc3.sdfc.phl.netaxs.net [207.106.3.246] 
 15    60 ms    41 ms    40 ms  core1-cnsh-gige-1.cnsh.phl.netaxs.net [207.106.0.10] 
 16    40 ms    40 ms    40 ms  ns1.havenco.com [207.106.3.14] 

Trace complete.


The www site is up too.  Possibly you misunderstood their temporary
outage?

>     --digsig
>          James A. Donald

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 21:11:12 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:11:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> > But Joe Random isn't a Cypherpunks Leader...
> 
> Oh my god!  The Cypherpunks have a *leader*?

That was my feeling as well...:)


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 21:12:13 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:12:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hey HavenCo!!! (was Re: More damage to...)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Think they'd host a CDR node?

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 21:28:53 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:28:53 -0600
Subject: Robot Group - RoboFest 1 - 1989
Message-ID: <3C071915.F13D7AB6@ssz.com>


http://www.robotgroup.org/robofest/robof1.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Thu Nov 29 15:34:18 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:34:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Order Now:  True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace 
  Frontier
Message-ID: 


Really-From - Well Known Cypherpunk

I'd be happy to be wrong here, but the bet ain't over till the
fat lady ships the books.  Amazon's promised to accept orders before,
and while we're closer to the promised "this time for sure" date
than I've seen in the past, it's still just a promise.

Meanwhile, if you want to see articles by Tim May, Dorothy Denning,
Duncan Frissell, Hakim Bey, Eric Hughes, and Other Well-Known Cypherpunks and fellow-travelers in print, there's an interesting collection
isbn://0-262-62151-7   mitpress.mit.edu  2001
"Crypto Anarchy, Cyberstates, and Pirate Utopias"
edited by Peter Ludlow


On 11/23/2001 - 20:44, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

> [Note from Matt:  I made a small wager in palladium that Vinge's True 
> Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier would be available 
> to order prior to Jan. 1, 2002 with a well known Cypherpunk.  And I 
> won.   Acct# 101893.]
> 
> 
> At 3:03 AM -0700 8/13/01, Well known Cypherpunk wrote:
> >Subject: Re: BTW-  I'll bet you...
> >
> >OK - Done deal, if you'll accept the modification that it be
> >orderable and shippable by Amazon or other on-line bookstore
> >within a week after that.
> 
> 
>  103-1236763-4454202>
> 
> True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier
> by Vernor Vinge, James Frenkel (Editor)
> 
> List Price: $14.95
> Our Price: $11.96
> You Save: $2.99 (20%)
> This item will be published in December 2001. You may order it now 
> and we will ship it to you when it arrives.
> See larger photo
> 
> This item qualifies for free shipping on orders over $99! Click for details
> Great Buy
> Buy True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Fron... with The 
> Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge today! Total List Price: $42.90
> Buy Together Today: $31.52
> You Save: $11.38
> 
> 
> Paperback - 384 pages (December 2001)
> Tor Books; ISBN: 0312862075
> 
> Amazon.com Sales Rank: 28,271
> 


X-Authenticated-User: idiom




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Nov 29 04:36:25 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:36:25 +1100
Subject: hirstory lessons
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011129233029.00a1deb0@pop.useoz.com>


."..I will
personally have you killed."
Whoever 'son of gomez' is they are clearly sexist and dangerous.Operation 
soft drill will pledge 1$ to have their messages here permanently 
expunged."We mean it Maaaaaaaaaan!"

"There is no such thing as anonymity on the internet" british plainscloths 
cop after 'smashing' a pedophile 'ring'.




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Nov 29 20:45:19 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:45:19 -0500
Subject: "True Names" is out
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011129181601.022c7d40@mail.well.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011129181601.022c7d40@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 


At 6:16 PM -0500 11/29/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Arrived in the mail today, trade paperback, bah, with Tim's essay as 
>the second chapter.
>
>-Declan


At 9:59 PM -0800 11/25/01, Lucky Green wrote:
>The page at Amazon. COM claims that the book in question will ship in
>December of this year. I seem to recall having read announcements in
>years past that the book would ship in the respective years. Methinks
>that a mere claim of a future ship date in 2001 may be considered
>insufficient proof that the condition of the wager has been met by at
>least one of the parties to the wager.

Although my bet wasn't with Lucky (proving that he is indeed Lucky) 
it does appear that the book is in print and for my wager to be 
successful it must be orderable and shippable by Amazon or other 
on-line bookstore within a week after Jan. 1, 2002.  So methinks my 
wager was a good one, unless Lucky wishes to wager it otherwise?

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Nov 29 21:49:30 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:49:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hey HavenCo!!! (was Re: More damage to...)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Think they'd host a CDR node?

Is there a *need* for another CDR node?

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Nov 29 05:01:09 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:01:09 +1100
Subject: playstation? play dead.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011129235936.00a62eb0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,3341838%255E421,00.html

Man dies playing playstation
 From AAP
29nov01

A FISHING boat deckhand playing a computer game was electrocuted when a 
huge wave smashed through the window of the trawler's wheelhouse off the 
southern Queensland coast, according to police.

Richard Wells, 19, of Innisfail, in north Queensland, was playing a Sony 
Playstation and sitting at a metal table when the wave smashed through the 
cabin glass of the trawler Arrow Sea near Fraser Island yesterday.
A police spokesman today said a post mortem examination had determined the 
man had died of asphyxiation caused by electrocution.

"It was the combination of water and electricity and metal," he said.

"A huge wave came over the bow of the vessel and smashed through the cabin 
windows."

The spokesman said three other crew members also suffered shocks and minor 
burns as they attempted to help Mr Wells, who was trapped in the wrecked cabin.

The crew set off a satellite distress beacon after the accident and a 
rescue helicopter went to the scene.

But the crew was able to get the trawler to Bundaberg under its own power, 
where it docked early today.

Police have impounded the trawler until their investigations are complete.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Nov 29 22:10:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:10:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: cryptoheaven.com (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 28 Nov 2001 09:37:28 -0800
From: Sidney Markowitz 
To: Cryptography Mailing List 
Subject: cryptoheaven.com

I haven't seen mention of this on the mailing list and it is new enough
that it doesn't show up in a google search as of the moment I am typing
this.

Looking at http://www.cryptoheaven.com it appears they provide anonymous
encrypted services including email, instant messaging (chat), and server
based file storage. Their client code is open source Java. They appear
to use standard algorithms. They are based in Canada. The services are
free at small volumes (supposedly suitable for ordinary personal use)
and for fee at higher volumes.

I only know what I see on their website. Has anyone else heard of these
people?

 -- sidney 





---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cryptography Mailing List
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Nov 29 22:13:37 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:13:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: in praise of gold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Petro wrote:

> On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 07:58 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> >> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Faustine wrote:
> >>> Not all women are golddiggers.
> >> They're called 'old maids'. ALL women who are interested in a
> >> 'relationship' are 'golddiggers' in the sense they want to 'change' the
> >> other party.
> >
> > Nothing like a good across the board generalization, huh Jim?
> 
> 	Well, I hate to be in the position of defending Jimbo, but he's 
> right--in a sense, but not just about women.

Where does the desire for "a relationship" translate into the desire to
"change the other party"?  

> 	I'd be willing to bet (should there be a way of proving it to my 
> satisfaction) that in every relationship, one party would like to change 
> AT LEAST 2 things about the other party.

Then I guess we're down the minutae of "what is "a relationship", and what is
"change"... 

> 	Of course, this then makes every person who gets into any kind of 
> relationship a "gold digger".

The American colloquialism "Golddigger" != "Relationship participant who
would like to effect changes in the other engaging party(s)".  The Goldigger
term commonly refers to a woman who marries or engages in highly personal
(not _necessarily_ sexual, but the inference is a common one) long term
"relationships" for the accrual of cash and property, rather than any actual
interest in the partner(s).  Think long-term hookers.  Think Mary Elizabeth
Terranson :-)

> > Who was she?  It's nice to see you're not bitter ;-/
> 
> 	Why do you assume it was a she?



	Because Jim's comment specifically referred to women.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Nov 29 05:14:25 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:14:25 +1100
Subject: collaborationist
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130001305.00a61260@pop.useoz.com>


Andy Hughes, AFP general manager for international and federal operations, 
said computers seized in raids around the world often contained links and 
leads to others involved in child sex offences.

He said more arrests were likely to follow.

"These jobs are interesting in that they have a tendency to generate so 
many more avenues of inquiry over the course of the coming weeks," he said
"That will then be the genesis of a new global operation. They do tend to 
self feed these types of investigations."

Mr Hughes said the operation demonstrated the benefits achieved by 
international cooperation.

"We really are tackling this in partnership with our colleagues overseas," 
he said.

"This whole concept of patch protection has gone. We have always cooperated.

"But we are working now collaboratively with our colleagues both in 
Australia and overseas.

"It is the only way to operate. The crooks do it. In this case pedophiles 
do it. We are using the same methodologies."

In this case the AFP was the coordinator between the lead agency, the UK's 
National Crime Squad, and police in Australian states and territories.

He said a senior liaison officer in London attended early meetings with the 
NCS and briefings at the Interpol secretariat in Lyons, France.




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Nov 29 22:15:58 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:15:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: <200111300316.fAU3GQX40187@mailserver2c.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:30:20 -0800, Eric Murray  wrote:
> >On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 04:32:51PM -0800, keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:
> >> Have any of the shootingpunks on the list heard of constructing a firearm from something akin to a internal combustion chamber?
> >
> >
> >You can buy one at Home Depot!
> >It's called a cordless nailer.  Powered by "fuel cells"
> >which are probably propane.  The Porter-Cable "Bammer" is
> >one model.
> 
> I'll check into it.  My thought was to create a very high rate of fire, simple and effective full auto weapon for caseless ammo.

In the US, at the federal level and at most of the state levels, I believe
this would qualify as a firearm, as the expansion of hot gasses are
responsible for forward motion of a projectile.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Thu Nov 29 22:51:02 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:51:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: inet-one name servers/domain down? (fwd)
Message-ID: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:58:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Guan Sin Ong 
Reply-To: guansin at inet-one.com
To: measl at mfn.org
Subject: Re: inet-one name servers/domain down?

Thanks for bringing the issue up. However, it seems an intermittent problem
at your end, that I cannot detect the same situation as you all had
described. 

Let me know if it still persists. Perhaps supply me more details. I suspect
it could be my service provider's fault. I shall start monitoring its
service quality closely now. 

Regards,
GS

--- measl at mfn.org wrote:
> FYI:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 15:43:29 -0600 (CST)
> From: measl at mfn.org
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: CDR: CP archive problem?
> 
> 
> According to the registry, their record was modified yesterday (24
> November).  
> 
> In addition, I am unable to reach either of their authoritative name
> servers - their upstream may in fact be off the air completely.  With the
> recent change in their record, it is possible they made changes to their
> dns server addresses, and the new addressed were botched in the process
> (something I went through several weeks ago - it appears to be quite
> difficult to get the new registrars to properly move dns hosts).
> 
> I guess the next step would be email to their admins, and possibly a
> NANOG
> request...
> 
> 
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:23:30 -0800
> > From: Steve Schear 
> > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> > Subject: CDR: CP archive problem?
> > 
> > I've been trying to access http://www.inet-one.com for two days and
> have 
> > getting DNS errors.  Anyone else on @home with the same trouble?  Might
> be 
> > a good time to switch to alternate root servers.
> > 
> > steve
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Yours, 
> J.A. Terranson
> sysadmin at mfn.org
> 
> If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
> should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
> Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
> unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
> the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
> elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
> populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb
> electorate...
> This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
> as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist
> Republics.
> 
> The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
> associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
> those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
> first place...
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1




From christy27f at excite.com  Thu Nov 29 23:02:45 2001
From: christy27f at excite.com (christy27f at excite.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:02:45 -0600
Subject: cypherpunks you are one of our winners
Message-ID: <4gy57p.1f70rb2@msn.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
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From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Thu Nov 29 23:22:29 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:22:29 -0600
Subject: HDCP break and DMCA
References: <2731ED96-E511-11D5-BE2C-00306577F12E@bounty.org>
Message-ID: <3C0733B3.CCD8756E@cybershamanix.com>


     I can't remember what the exact deal was with Kinko (and they were the
one being sued), but the net effect was that people are being a lot more
careful. Here, in fact, Kinko totally moved out of the student/university
area, went off to suburbia, and I see no signs anymore at their new site
about student packets.
    Plenty of other, no-name copy shops to fill the gap.


Petro wrote:

> On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 10:31 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> >     But as I said, most professors are being much more careful about
> > getting permission beforehand and most copy places are being more
> > careful about what they sell.
>
>         If I remember the results correctly, Kinko's keeps track of what
> they copy and sends the publishers a certain amount.
>
> --
> "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
> half-wits."--Chris Klein

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com




From tonus at dsinet.org  Thu Nov 29 17:40:12 2001
From: tonus at dsinet.org (Casper Aleva)
Date: 30 Nov 2001 02:40:12 +0100
Subject: The pernicious characteristics of monocultures, by Paul Strassmann.
Message-ID: <1007084413.30349.29.camel@gadis>

The following essay by a manager with clue,  Paul Strassmann, is part of
the special report on Internet security and
hackers on the American
public broadcaster PBS and worth reading.

Source: 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/hackers/blame/threat.html

===
The purpose of this article is to explain the risks arising from a
Microsoft software monoculture.

The term "monoculture" is originally derived from agriculture. It is the
practice of growing the same crop each year on a given acreage. Rotating
crops helps control certain insects and diseases; farmers who repeatedly
grow the same crop on the same land become increasingly dependent on
chemical insecticides, and must resort to new disease-resistant plant
varieties, and practice soil fumigation and similar methods of
controlling insects and diseases that are usually controlled by crop
rotation.

If a large number of farmers, in proximate geography, adopt monoculture
practices, even the dependency on chemical means will not be sufficient
to protect the crops. Although the quantity of food is increased, the
humans create an environment that is hospitable to vermin, pathogens,
and diseases. Paradoxically, by increasing specialization monoculture
farmers increase the threats to their food supply.

The potentially destructive, injurious and deadly characteristics of
monoculture practices are remarkably comparable to conditions one finds
prevailing in computer networks. Therefore, it may be useful first to
examine an agricultural case before venturing into an exploration of
what it means to have Microsoft software present in most of the
computers in the world.

Agricultural Case: The Irish Potato Famine

The "Great Potato Famine" or the "Irish Famine" occurred in 1845-49 when
the potato crop failed in successive years. The crop failures were
caused by blight that destroyed the potato plant. It was the worst
famine to occur in Europe in the 19th century. By the early 1840s,
almost one-half of the Irish population--but primarily the rural
poor--had come to depend almost exclusively on the potato for their
diet, and the rest of the population also consumed it in large
quantities. A heavy reliance on just one or two high-yielding varieties
of potato greatly reduced the genetic variety that ordinarily prevents
the decimation of an entire crop by disease, and thus made the Irish
vulnerable. In 1845 a fungus arrived accidentally from North America,
and that same year Ireland had unusually cool, moist weather, in which
the blight thrived. About 1.1 million people died from starvation or
typhus and other famine-related diseases. Many emigrated, and by 1921
the population was barely half of what it had been in the early 1840s.

The Software Case: Microsoft's Dominance

Microsoft's dominance in operating systems represents a new threat to
the national security and to the systematic reliability of our
computer-based society.

It is a fact that a large number of political institutions, both in the
U.S. and in other countries, are becoming increasingly aware of the
economic and security risks that arise from the ubiquitous presence of
Microsoft. The U.S. government as well as a European Economic Community
(EEC) Commission is trying to contain the expanding power of Microsoft
by litigation. This is insufficient. One must also address the risks
from attacks on a largely homogeneous systems management environment.
Info-terrorists and criminals will continue to take advantage of the
ever-growing proliferation of flaws in the gigantic Microsoft system,
consisting of hundreds of millions of lines of failure-prone code.

The Microsoft software monoculture is dangerous because this firm is
pursuing its global expansion objectives with unconstrained ambition.
Its strength is reflected in its share of all profits from the software
business. That advantage has widened steadily from 24 percent in 1987 to
64 percent in 1998 and is likely to climb as Microsoft is expanding its
reach as a vendor of software packages to becoming a networking services
giant. In its recently announced .Net initiative, Microsoft has
projected a vision of a world that is inter-connected with Microsoft
centers from where each computer receives not only its operating
software but also a continuous stream of data and applications.

Microsoft now sets its sights not only on the control of local computing
but also on the sources from which all program code and data originate.
Upgrading Microsoft software has been a logical choice for customers who
wished to keep up with changes in technology. The risks of an integrated
family of operating systems running all global computers, a declared
Microsoft objective, make selecting a Microsoft platform more than a
purely technical choice. An all-encompassing operating system bares
itself to hostile exploitation of paralyzing security flaws. The
presence of a fatal defect is unavoidable as the complexity of Microsoft
systems expands to bizarre proportions with each new release. It is the
search for such a fault that occupies the minds of some of the brightest
computer experts. Finding a crack through which one could induce mayhem
with only a few keystrokes would be worth a great deal of money,
especially when supporting an act of terrorism.

Microsoft and the Information Monoculture

It's only a question of time before the ubiquitous presence of Microsoft
operating systems, supported by a software-updating network, reaches a
level of interconnectivity that makes a universal systems crash
feasible.

All that will be required is inducement of a widespread information
infrastructure collapse through a deliberately executed and pre-planned
act of information warfare. The risk from a software monoculture has
increased due to the shift from custom-made software to packaged
applications residing on an integrated family of Microsoft operating
systems. As a result, the risks from planned subversion of a software
monoculture now overwhelm the demonstrable benefits of standardization
of an otherwise chaotic software environment.

The future of Microsoft should not be judged only by antitrust criteria
or the commercial merits of its software. It should be also reflected in
the unprecedented security risks to our civilization that a software
monoculture generates. The Microsoft defense that it was only maximizing
profits using common competitive methods is insufficient. Business
practices that may be tolerable for a small competitor become perilous
whenever scaled up to security-threatening proportions to global
computer networks.

Our computer-based information society is still in its early stages of
development. Its resilience and dependability is still not adequately
understood. If history teaches anything, it is the insight that
monocultures of any kind--especially if they can propagate in a matter
of seconds--should not be allowed to flourish without adequate
safeguards.

===

Casper Aleva

Dutch Security Information Network
e: tonus at dsinet.org
w: http://www.DSINet.org/
c: http://www.DSINet.org/casper/pubkey.txt
==
"Don't quote, I want to know what _you_ have to say." -Unknown
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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Fri Nov 30 02:59:00 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:59:00 -0800
Subject: "True Names" is out
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000001c1798e$0483ada0$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>


It ain't luck. Unless I worked for the publisher or a major distributor,
I would never consider wagering on the ship date of a book that has been
delayed for so long. Amazon's page still states as of the writing of
this email that the book is not yet shipping and claims that the book
will ship in the future, but since some list members have received a
copy of book, the page appears to be in error.

Looks like you might win your wager with the unnamed Cypherpunk after
all.

--Lucky

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com 
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Gaylor
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:45 PM
> To: Declan McCullagh
> Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com; Lucky Green
> Subject: Re: "True Names" is out
> 
> 
> At 6:16 PM -0500 11/29/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Arrived in the mail today, trade paperback, bah, with Tim's essay as
> >the second chapter.
> >
> >-Declan
> 
> 
> At 9:59 PM -0800 11/25/01, Lucky Green wrote:
> >The page at Amazon. COM claims that the book in question 
> will ship in 
> >December of this year. I seem to recall having read announcements in 
> >years past that the book would ship in the respective years. 
> Methinks 
> >that a mere claim of a future ship date in 2001 may be considered 
> >insufficient proof that the condition of the wager has been 
> met by at 
> >least one of the parties to the wager.
> 
> Although my bet wasn't with Lucky (proving that he is indeed Lucky) 
> it does appear that the book is in print and for my wager to be 
> successful it must be orderable and shippable by Amazon or other 
> on-line bookstore within a week after Jan. 1, 2002.  So methinks my 
> wager was a good one, unless Lucky wishes to wager it otherwise?
> 
> Regards,  Matt-
> 
> 
> **************************************************************
> ************
> Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues 
> Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words 
> subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and 
> moderated (7-30 messages per week)
> Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
> **************************************************************
> ************




From webmaster at mailpartner.co.krnet  Thu Nov 29 10:13:38 2001
From: webmaster at mailpartner.co.krnet (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMyz68S/ucK0z8TJwMy8xw==?=)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:13:38 +0900
Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIENZUEhFUlBVTktTtNQgvsiz58fPvcq0z7HuPyCzrcW4wNS0z7TZLg==?=
Message-ID: <3c067a8b3c270587@relay3.kornet.net> (added by relay3.kornet.net)

난타 설문조사  안녕하세요, 난타입니다.
 현재 난타에서는 '난타와 함께 하는 난타 스쿨'을 기획하고 있습니다. 그에 앞서 학생 여러분들의 의견을 들어 보고자 합니다. 성실히  답변을 해 주시는 분께는 추첨을 통하여 현재 난타 전용관에서 매일 공연중인 '난타' 공연 초대권을 선물로 드립니다.  

 1. 난타(어린이 난타)를 알고 있습니까?
 ① 알고 있다. ② 모른다.  ③ 확실히는 모르나 들은적은 있다.
 

 
 2. 난타를 보고 난 후 느낌은 어땠습니까? 
 ① 아주 재미있었다. ② 재미있었다. ③ 보통이다. ④ 이해하지 못하겠다. 
 ⑤ 재미없었다. 
 ⑥ 본적 없다. (앞으로 난타를 보고 싶은가요? 예  , 아니오 )

 

 
 3. 어느 부분이 가장 재미있습니까? 
 ① 길놀이 (4명의 요리사들이 자장면 배달통, 냄비, 물통 등을 두드리며 사물놀이 하는 장면) 
 ② 도마씬 (4명의 요리사들이 도마를 치며 서로의 솜씨를 겨루는 장면) 
 ③ 북씬 (4명의 요리사들의 북을 치며 축제를 하는 장면) 
 ④ 전부 다  ⑤ 기타 (자세히 써주세요 )
 

 
 4. 난타에서 연주하는 리듬이 우리 고유의 사물놀이 가락인 것을 알고 있습니까?
 ① 알고 있다. ② 모른다. ③ 관심 없다.
 

 
  '난타(亂打)'란 권투시합의 난타전처럼 마구 두드린다는 뜻입니다.  '난타'는 사물놀이 리듬을 소재로 드라마화 한 작품으로써 한국 최초의 Non-Verbal Performance입니다.  '난타'는 한국의 사물놀이를 서양식 공연양식에 접목한 작품으로서 대형 주방을 무대로 하여 네 명의 요리사가 등장하여 결혼 피로연을 위한 요리를 만드는 과정에서 각종 주방기구 즉 냄비, 후라이팬, 접시 등을 가지고 사물놀이를 연주하는 내용으로 구성되어 있습니다.   '난타'는 전체적으로 사물놀이의 리듬이 갖고 있는 원시적 폭발력을 제대로 표현할 수 있도록 힘과 속도감에 주안점을 두고 있습니다. 전반적으로 리듬과 비트로 구성된 작품이면서도 뚜렷한 줄거리와 드라마가 있어서 남녀노소 누구나 재미있게 즐길 수 있습니다.  

 5. 직접 연기를 하는 것에 대해서 어떻게 생각합니까? 
 ① 재미있을 것이다. 한번 해 보고 싶다.  ② 그냥 구경하는 것으로 만족한다. ③ 별로 관심 없다.
 
 6. 만약에 '난타와 함께 하는 난타 스쿨'을 학교 특기적성 교육 시간에 한다면 참여할 생각이 있습니까? 
 ① 있다. ② 없다. ③ 특기적성교육에 관심 없다.
 

 
 7. '난타와 함께 하는 난타 스쿨'을 할 경우 가장 배우고 싶은 것은?
 ① 연기 배우기 ② 사물놀이 장단 배우기 ③ 공연기획 및 진행(무대, 음향, 조명)
 ④ 대본, 스토리 구성 ⑤ 기타 (자세히 써 주세요 )
 8. 인적사항을 적으시면 추첨을 통하여  '난타' 티켓을 선물로 드립니다.
 직업  /  초등학교   중학교   고등학교   기타 
 
이름  /  
 
전화  /  
 
E-mail  /  
 
주소  /  
 지금까지 질문에 응해 주셔서 감사합니다. 
 앞으로 더욱 재미있고, 유익한 난타가 되도록 늘 노력하겠습니다.
발표는 12월 3일 난타 홈페이지에서 합니다. 
 
 (주)PMC Production 서울특별시 중구 태평로1가 62-4 조선일보 광화문빌딩(100-101) 
 Tel.02-363-5494/5495 Fax.02-363-9572 http://www.nanta.co.kr
 

  
  수신거부 
  난타의  이메일 마케팅은 이노커뮤니케이션이 함께 했습니다.
 광고문의 : 이노커뮤니케이션  mailpartner.co.kr / (02)6351-7500
  Copyright 2001 Amail, Inc, webmaster at mailpartner.co.kr
  
  
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From net_reports at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 30 05:06:25 2001
From: net_reports at hotmail.com (Internet Reports)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 05:06:25
Subject: Please hear me out...it's worth your time.
Message-ID: <200111300958.BAA05987@ecotone.toad.com>


Let's get one thing out of the way immediately - I am not a business.  I'm just an individual 
offering you some information which I have found beneficial to me.  This isn't some hocus 
pocus hair-
brained scheme that's not exactly legal.  Nor is this information NOT of use to you!  What I 
am offering is something that is right for our time - something that our parents couldn't take 
advantage of, and something that our children may not be able to either.

Right now in human history, there's a "sweet spot" that the Internet has reached.  The 
Internet is still in it's relative infancy in that many people do not yet know how to use it for 
much more 
than reading the news and sending e-mail.  But it touches so many people's lives that there 
is untapped potential just WAITING to be used!!!  And it's times like this that allows those of 
us who 
KNOW how to use this tool to sell our "expertise" to those who want to know how.

"BUT I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE INTERNET MYSELF" you may say.  Well, 
don't sweat it.  As you read on, you will find below 5 information packets which can get 
anyone, 
INCLUDING YOU, started using the Internet to further any business venture that you, or 
anyone else, may dream up.  And here's the best part!!!  After you have read this 
information yourself, 
you can start putting it to use RIGHT AWAY, helping other people to learn about the 
Internet and doing business using this new powerful tool.  And yes, you are bound to make 
money while 
doing so.

I absolutely CANNOT promise that you will NOT make any money, because it's just not true 
- this is not charity work!  KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, and the times we are living in have 
been 
dubbed the "Information Age".  So read on, and don't make up your mind either way until 
you've read this entire e-mail through.  I don't like the thought of people making decisions 
based on 
partial information.

Have you ever read the stories about inventors who came up with this BRILLIANT idea 
and made millions patenting and producing this product?  Must be nice, eh?  Well, not too 
many of us 
can think up a life-altering gadget or what-cha-ma-callit to make our income, myself 
included.  But I found that I didn't need my own idea to start with.  Remember those 5 
informatin packets I 
mentioned earlier?  Well, those packets, or "reports", cover such topics as performing legal 
bulk e-mailing over the Internet (still the best-proven method to reach clients), advertising for 
free on 
the Internet, and running an MLM company on the Internet.  People that DO have an idea 
for a product or business but don't know about the Internet will be ITCHING to get ahold of 
this 
information.  AND YOU CAN BE THE ONE TO GIVE IT TO THEM.  But you can't provide 
people something you don't have already, so here's what you've gotta do:

I don't know myself who exactly set this program up, but it's quite well done.  There are 5 
people on the list below, real people.  I should know - one of them is ME!  We each have 
all 5 reports 
already, we were once in your shoes: sitting, reading an e-mail similar to the one you're 
reading now, full of disbelief.  But we took the necessary action to get the ball rolling, and 
not one of us 
regret it, I'm sure.  The first step to take is ordering all 5 of these reports yourself.  You will 
then, in turn, be able to offer this information, or reports, to others, as I am offering them to 
you now.

So order all 5 reports shown on the list below.  For each report, send:
     - $5 CASH
     - the name and number of the report you are ordering
     - your e-mail address

Send these to the person whose name and address appears on the list below next to the 
report.  Be sure to order all five reports before adding your own name, and MAKE SURE 
YOUR 
RETURN ADDRESS IS ON THE ENVELOPE'S TOP LEFT CORNER in case there are 
any problems with it in the mail.

When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.  You will need all 5 
reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them.  Your total cost that 
you will 
EVER have to pay to get started in this program is $25.  $5 for each of the 5 reports.  
Shortly after you send your request for the reports you will receive, via e-mail, each  of the 5 
reports from 
these 5 different individuals.  Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you 
to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a backup copy of 
these 
reports on floppy, CD-R, backup tape, ANYTHING and keep it in a safe place.  With as 
valuable as you will find these reports to be, you won't want to let them out of your sight!

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or 
their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step 1 through 
6 or you 
will lose out on the majority of your profits.  Once you understand the way this works, you 
will also see how it does not work if you change it.  Remember, this method has been 
tested, and if 
you alter it, it will NOT work!  People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all 
five spots thinking they could get all the money.  However, it does not work this way.  Some 
have tried 
to be greedy and have found out that it didn't work.  So do not try to change anything other 
than what is instructed.

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take list below and REMOVE the name & address 
of the person in REPORT # 5 position.  This person has made it through the cycle and is 
no doubt 
counting their fortune.
2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY!
=============================================================
Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer.  DO 
NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.  Save this in your backup along with the reports just 
in case 
something happens to your computer.  Trust me - IT CAN HAPPEN.

As I mentioned, the 5 reports that you order actually contain useful information, not only for 
those who buy them from you, but also for you yourself!  They will provide you with 
invaluable 
marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find 
thousands of free classified ads and much more.

There are 2 main ways to get this program going for yourself:


METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
=============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes.  Let's assume you and those 
involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each.  Let's also assume that the mailing receive only 
a 0.2% 
response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%)  The more e-
mail sent out will also increase these figures.

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is 
only 10 orders for report # 1.  Those 10 people responded by moving you down to position 
#2, 
putting themselves in position #1 and sending out 5,000 e-mail each.  That's a total of 
50,000 e-mails sent.  Out of those 50,000 e-mails if only 0.2% responded with orders, that's 
100 people 
responding and ordering Report # 2.  Those 100 people move you down to position #3 and 
put themselves in position #1, then mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-
mails sent.  
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #3.  Those 1000 people move you 
down to position #4 and send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. 
The 0.2% 
response to that is 10,000 ORDERS for Report #4.  Finally, those 10,000 people move you 
to position #5 and send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails 
sent.
The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report #5.  That's 100,000 ORDERS for 
report #5.  At $5.00 each that's $500,000.00, or a half-million dollars.  See how this adds up 
quick?

Your total income in this example would be:
1..... $50
2..... $500
3..... $5,000
4..... $50,000
5..... $500,000
Grand Total=$555,550.00

Although 0.2% is a relatively small amount of responses, you can still see the kind of earning 
potential is out there for this program.  Even if only got a 0.1% response, that's still more 
than most 
of us make in several YEARS at our secular jobs!!!  Can you even imagine for a moment 
what would happen if everyone or half or even a quarter of the people sent out 100,000 e-
mails
each or more?  With over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting, 
there's lots to be contacted!

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
==============================================
Advertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to 
advertise.  Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We 
strongly suggest 
you start with Method #1 and move on to method #2 as you progress.  For every $5 you 
receive, all you have to do is e-mail the buyer the Report that they ordered. That's it!  
Always provide 
same day service on all orders to keep people happy with the program.  Remember, the 
longer you make them wait for the reports to get THEIR program going, the less enthusiasm 
they will 
have by the time you DO get it to them.  And remember - they can not advertise until they 
receive the report.

THE REPORTS
==============================================
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.
Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks are NOT 
accepted. Postal money orders purchased from the US Post Office are the only acceptable 
alternative. 
Make sure that any cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper.  On one 
of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-
MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDERS NOW !!!
==============================================

Report #1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net". Order Report #1 from:

Trevor Lee
47 McCormick Street
Welland, Ontario, Canada
L3C 4L8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Net". Order Report #2 from:

TL Tech
2315 Whirlpool Street
Suite 369
Niagara Falls, NY  14305
USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #3: "The Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net".  Order Report #3 from:

PQH
24338 El Toro Rd #E-133
Laguna Hills, CA  92653

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net". Order Report #4 from:

KB
30025 Alicia Parkway #193
Laguna Niguel, CA 92677

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #5: "How to Send 1 Million E-mails For Free". Order Report #5 from:

EMD
1230 Beaubien Est #31
Montreal, PQ
H2S 1T7
Canada
_____________________________________________________________________
Please remember that your $5 bills are going all around the world and
delivery of report could take up to 2-4wks.
_____________________________________________________________________

YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES!
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

- If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-
mails until you do
- After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders 
or more for REPORT #2
- If you did not,continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do
- Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2 YOU CAN RELAX, because 
the system is already working for you
- Now just sit back and watch the cash continue to roll in!!!
 
THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report.  
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering 
from 
you.  If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and start the 
whole process again!!!  The possibilities are ENDLESS!!!

There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!!
=============================================================
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:
You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your 
life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT.  You can make more money in 
the next 
few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do NOT change it in any way.  It works 
exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you 
have put 
your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 through #5 as instructed 
above.  One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your 
name
will be on every one of them.  Remember though, the more you send out the more potential 
customers you will reach. So, my friend, I have given you the idea, information, materials 
and 
opportunity to become financially independent.
 
IT IS UP TO YOU NOW !
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!
=============================================================

If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of 
Consumer
Protection, Washington, D.C.

This e-mail is sent in compliance with our strict anti-abuse regulations. You are receiving this 
message for one of the
following reasons:

1) we are on the same optin list;
2) you posted to one of my FFA pages;
3) you have responded to one of my ads; or
4) you have sent an e-mail to one of our addresses. By doing so, you have
agreed to receive this message. Under Bill s. 1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US 
Congress this
letter Cannot be considered  Spam as long as the sender includes contact information & a 
method of
"removal." To be removed from future mailings just reply with REMOVE in the subject line. 
Thank you for
your kind consideration.




From LaParfumerie at dev.null  Fri Nov 30 03:21:05 2001
From: LaParfumerie at dev.null (LaParfumerie)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 05:21:05 -0600
Subject: Great Holiday Gifts!
Message-ID: 

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From net_reports at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 30 06:23:44 2001
From: net_reports at hotmail.com (Internet Reports)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:23:44
Subject: Please hear me out...it's worth your time.
Message-ID: <200111301115.DAA06134@ecotone.toad.com>


Let's get one thing out of the way immediately - I am not a business.  I'm just an individual 
offering you some information which I have found beneficial to me.  This isn't some hocus 
pocus hair-
brained scheme that's not exactly legal.  Nor is this information NOT of use to you!  What I 
am offering is something that is right for our time - something that our parents couldn't take 
advantage of, and something that our children may not be able to either.

Right now in human history, there's a "sweet spot" that the Internet has reached.  The 
Internet is still in it's relative infancy in that many people do not yet know how to use it for 
much more 
than reading the news and sending e-mail.  But it touches so many people's lives that there 
is untapped potential just WAITING to be used!!!  And it's times like this that allows those of 
us who 
KNOW how to use this tool to sell our "expertise" to those who want to know how.

"BUT I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE INTERNET MYSELF" you may say.  Well, 
don't sweat it.  As you read on, you will find below 5 information packets which can get 
anyone, 
INCLUDING YOU, started using the Internet to further any business venture that you, or 
anyone else, may dream up.  And here's the best part!!!  After you have read this 
information yourself, 
you can start putting it to use RIGHT AWAY, helping other people to learn about the 
Internet and doing business using this new powerful tool.  And yes, you are bound to make 
money while 
doing so.

I absolutely CANNOT promise that you will NOT make any money, because it's just not true 
- this is not charity work!  KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, and the times we are living in have 
been 
dubbed the "Information Age".  So read on, and don't make up your mind either way until 
you've read this entire e-mail through.  I don't like the thought of people making decisions 
based on 
partial information.

Have you ever read the stories about inventors who came up with this BRILLIANT idea 
and made millions patenting and producing this product?  Must be nice, eh?  Well, not too 
many of us 
can think up a life-altering gadget or what-cha-ma-callit to make our income, myself 
included.  But I found that I didn't need my own idea to start with.  Remember those 5 
informatin packets I 
mentioned earlier?  Well, those packets, or "reports", cover such topics as performing legal 
bulk e-mailing over the Internet (still the best-proven method to reach clients), advertising for 
free on 
the Internet, and running an MLM company on the Internet.  People that DO have an idea 
for a product or business but don't know about the Internet will be ITCHING to get ahold of 
this 
information.  AND YOU CAN BE THE ONE TO GIVE IT TO THEM.  But you can't provide 
people something you don't have already, so here's what you've gotta do:

I don't know myself who exactly set this program up, but it's quite well done.  There are 5 
people on the list below, real people.  I should know - one of them is ME!  We each have 
all 5 reports 
already, we were once in your shoes: sitting, reading an e-mail similar to the one you're 
reading now, full of disbelief.  But we took the necessary action to get the ball rolling, and 
not one of us 
regret it, I'm sure.  The first step to take is ordering all 5 of these reports yourself.  You will 
then, in turn, be able to offer this information, or reports, to others, as I am offering them to 
you now.

So order all 5 reports shown on the list below.  For each report, send:
     - $5 CASH
     - the name and number of the report you are ordering
     - your e-mail address

Send these to the person whose name and address appears on the list below next to the 
report.  Be sure to order all five reports before adding your own name, and MAKE SURE 
YOUR 
RETURN ADDRESS IS ON THE ENVELOPE'S TOP LEFT CORNER in case there are 
any problems with it in the mail.

When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.  You will need all 5 
reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them.  Your total cost that 
you will 
EVER have to pay to get started in this program is $25.  $5 for each of the 5 reports.  
Shortly after you send your request for the reports you will receive, via e-mail, each  of the 5 
reports from 
these 5 different individuals.  Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you 
to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a backup copy of 
these 
reports on floppy, CD-R, backup tape, ANYTHING and keep it in a safe place.  With as 
valuable as you will find these reports to be, you won't want to let them out of your sight!

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or 
their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step 1 through 
6 or you 
will lose out on the majority of your profits.  Once you understand the way this works, you 
will also see how it does not work if you change it.  Remember, this method has been 
tested, and if 
you alter it, it will NOT work!  People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all 
five spots thinking they could get all the money.  However, it does not work this way.  Some 
have tried 
to be greedy and have found out that it didn't work.  So do not try to change anything other 
than what is instructed.

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take list below and REMOVE the name & address 
of the person in REPORT # 5 position.  This person has made it through the cycle and is 
no doubt 
counting their fortune.
2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY!
=============================================================
Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer.  DO 
NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.  Save this in your backup along with the reports just 
in case 
something happens to your computer.  Trust me - IT CAN HAPPEN.

As I mentioned, the 5 reports that you order actually contain useful information, not only for 
those who buy them from you, but also for you yourself!  They will provide you with 
invaluable 
marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find 
thousands of free classified ads and much more.

There are 2 main ways to get this program going for yourself:


METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
=============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes.  Let's assume you and those 
involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each.  Let's also assume that the mailing receive only 
a 0.2% 
response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%)  The more e-
mail sent out will also increase these figures.

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is 
only 10 orders for report # 1.  Those 10 people responded by moving you down to position 
#2, 
putting themselves in position #1 and sending out 5,000 e-mail each.  That's a total of 
50,000 e-mails sent.  Out of those 50,000 e-mails if only 0.2% responded with orders, that's 
100 people 
responding and ordering Report # 2.  Those 100 people move you down to position #3 and 
put themselves in position #1, then mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-
mails sent.  
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #3.  Those 1000 people move you 
down to position #4 and send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. 
The 0.2% 
response to that is 10,000 ORDERS for Report #4.  Finally, those 10,000 people move you 
to position #5 and send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails 
sent.
The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report #5.  That's 100,000 ORDERS for 
report #5.  At $5.00 each that's $500,000.00, or a half-million dollars.  See how this adds up 
quick?

Your total income in this example would be:
1..... $50
2..... $500
3..... $5,000
4..... $50,000
5..... $500,000
Grand Total=$555,550.00

Although 0.2% is a relatively small amount of responses, you can still see the kind of earning 
potential is out there for this program.  Even if only got a 0.1% response, that's still more 
than most 
of us make in several YEARS at our secular jobs!!!  Can you even imagine for a moment 
what would happen if everyone or half or even a quarter of the people sent out 100,000 e-
mails
each or more?  With over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting, 
there's lots to be contacted!

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
==============================================
Advertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to 
advertise.  Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We 
strongly suggest 
you start with Method #1 and move on to method #2 as you progress.  For every $5 you 
receive, all you have to do is e-mail the buyer the Report that they ordered. That's it!  
Always provide 
same day service on all orders to keep people happy with the program.  Remember, the 
longer you make them wait for the reports to get THEIR program going, the less enthusiasm 
they will 
have by the time you DO get it to them.  And remember - they can not advertise until they 
receive the report.

THE REPORTS
==============================================
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.
Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks are NOT 
accepted. Postal money orders purchased from the US Post Office are the only acceptable 
alternative. 
Make sure that any cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper.  On one 
of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-
MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDERS NOW !!!
==============================================

Report #1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net". Order Report #1 from:

Trevor Lee
47 McCormick Street
Welland, Ontario, Canada
L3C 4L8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Net". Order Report #2 from:

TL Tech
2315 Whirlpool Street
Suite 369
Niagara Falls, NY  14305
USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #3: "The Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net".  Order Report #3 from:

PQH
24338 El Toro Rd #E-133
Laguna Hills, CA  92653

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net". Order Report #4 from:

KB
30025 Alicia Parkway #193
Laguna Niguel, CA 92677

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #5: "How to Send 1 Million E-mails For Free". Order Report #5 from:

EMD
1230 Beaubien Est #31
Montreal, PQ
H2S 1T7
Canada
_____________________________________________________________________
Please remember that your $5 bills are going all around the world and
delivery of report could take up to 2-4wks.
_____________________________________________________________________

YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES!
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

- If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-
mails until you do
- After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders 
or more for REPORT #2
- If you did not,continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do
- Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2 YOU CAN RELAX, because 
the system is already working for you
- Now just sit back and watch the cash continue to roll in!!!
 
THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report.  
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering 
from 
you.  If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and start the 
whole process again!!!  The possibilities are ENDLESS!!!

There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!!
=============================================================
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:
You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your 
life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT.  You can make more money in 
the next 
few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do NOT change it in any way.  It works 
exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you 
have put 
your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 through #5 as instructed 
above.  One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your 
name
will be on every one of them.  Remember though, the more you send out the more potential 
customers you will reach. So, my friend, I have given you the idea, information, materials 
and 
opportunity to become financially independent.
 
IT IS UP TO YOU NOW !
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!
=============================================================

If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of 
Consumer
Protection, Washington, D.C.

This e-mail is sent in compliance with our strict anti-abuse regulations. You are receiving this 
message for one of the
following reasons:

1) we are on the same optin list;
2) you posted to one of my FFA pages;
3) you have responded to one of my ads; or
4) you have sent an e-mail to one of our addresses. By doing so, you have
agreed to receive this message. Under Bill s. 1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US 
Congress this
letter Cannot be considered  Spam as long as the sender includes contact information & a 
method of
"removal." To be removed from future mailings just reply with REMOVE in the subject line. 
Thank you for
your kind consideration.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Nov 30 05:06:33 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:06:33 -0600
Subject: Oceans next in U.S. "war on terror"
Message-ID: <3C078459.B71F0108@ssz.com>


http://in.news.yahoo.com/011130/107/19umj.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From SpeedBrowse35784 at guaranteed-speed.com  Fri Nov 30 05:39:47 2001
From: SpeedBrowse35784 at guaranteed-speed.com (SpeedBrowse35784 at guaranteed-speed.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:39:47 -0600
Subject: Speed Up Your Internet Connection In Just 5 Minutes 100% Guaranteed!                                                                             vukoseka 
Message-ID: <200111301339.HAA23022@einstein.ssz.com>

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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 30 07:47:19 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:47:19 -0800
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130211048.009f7070@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <89BD8E70-E5A9-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 02:21 AM, mattd wrote:

> "libertarian socialist" is an oxymoron."
> Like anarcho-capitalist?
> I do use anarchist gerberally.Tim Im posting articles under your name 
> at Indymedia.When I do I try to be very exact with it.
> but sometimes Im cutting and pasting like a whirling dervish and dont 
> attribute.Thats usually with the more outre statements you make in your 
> less lucid moments.Im just telling you as a courtesy,Oh and thanks for 
> not popping me in the corn.
>          "Who wants to participate to help form what will be the LAST 
> revolution on earth, the one that'll take down ALL the governments?"
>

You need to get back on your medications.

But thanks for helping with my defense: "Tim Im posting articles under 
your name at Indymedia."

Persecutor: "Mr. May, did you write these words?"

Me: "I don't know. Other people post things under my name. I really 
can't say for sure whether I wrote those words. What did the digital 
signature say?"

(Note in general: Even without the forgeries from Detweiler, and now 
this admission from "mattd," I expect that if asked if I wrote something 
I would say "I don't know." Without checking my own archives, it would 
be hard to know if something attributed to me was actually written by 
me, was a clever forgery, or was a satirical forgery. It's why digital 
signatures, with flaws of their own, exist. And it's why I don't sign. A 
signature is giving away something of value, to a prosecutor in this 
case.)


--Tim May
"That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Nov 30 08:04:33 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:04:33 -0800
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011129173608.007dcab0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011130080433.007d24a0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:38 PM 11/29/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> Um, Jim, despite the slump, there still plenty of free lowbrow sites for
>> Joe Random to start a mailing list for anything, so Tim's financial
>> status is irrelevent.
>
>But Joe Random isn't a Cypherpunks Leader...

Neither is Tim.  He's an author.  Not every one with an 
opinion has the disorder that makes them crave the role of leader.

In addition to the intrinsic irony of 'cp leader' ---a concept
favored by the legal types who think in terms of the subservient 
hierarchies that they live in, but largely their *projection*.

Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat.



Even the folks at eg. lne.com who spam-filter are not moderating,
and even moderated lists are not 'led' but edited.














 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Nov 30 08:08:25 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:08:25 -0800
Subject: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130172008.00a69040@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011130080825.007d4cc0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:23 PM 11/30/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>RE: Metalstorm.As they can be made e-specific to one owner,I think we 
>should all be able to have a liscenced version along with stingers in case 
>rouge airliners get loose in our skies.

Southwest has that ugly yellow/red stripe, not really what
I'd call "rouge".  Which airline is has rouge planes? 

>An acquaintance has come up with what he thinks is a novel and practical 
>design for a liquid propellent rocket engine. Although his initial tests 
>were not conclusive he thinks he can build an under 50 lb LOX-Propane 
>rocket which can put 20 lbs or more into LEO. 

Yeah right.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Nov 29 13:13:58 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:13:58 +1100
Subject: playstation? play dead. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130080444.00a205e0@pop.useoz.com>


..."what the fuck does this have to do with cypherpunks? "

What the fuck does half the states trolls posts and spam have to do with 
cypherpunks.PLAY has a lot to do with getting crypto mainstream in GAMES.Am 
I playing in this surveilled strip mall till it closes...maybe.
Someone with your sig should know some GAME THEORY.Also a reminder of 
mortality like...

"Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But
stupidity is the only universal crime;  the sentence is death, there is
no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity."
--Robert A. Heinlein




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Fri Nov 30 05:16:24 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:16:24 -0500
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0786A8.ED67E9A6@acmenet.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Wei Dai wrote:
> 
> > But there is a scalar number attached to a person which deserves the name
> > "reputation capital", namely his own judgement of what his reputation is
> > worth.
> 
> What's your number?
> 
> People don't think of themselves as a '5'. Even Hitler thought he was
> the good guy in the fight.

Hitler wasn't the only one who thought he was a good guy. He was a
Catholic in good standing throughout his life, and viewed extermination
of Jews as holy work. After the failed assassination attempt in 1939,
when Hitler's views on and plans for Jews were widely known, the Pope
send him congratulations, and several cardinals and bishops were also
pleased.


> 'good', 'bad', etc. are most certainly NOT scalar.

Nor are they transitive. See above.


-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 30 08:21:32 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:21:32 -0800
Subject: CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war'
  -November  29, 2001
In-Reply-To: <3C07ABD8.4EFBF71C@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <513A3535-E5AE-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 07:55 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>       Dubbya should be impeached, and both he and Asscruft arrested for
> treason.


Quite interesting the language they keep using: "Terrorists don't have 
rights."

The 1200 persons detained without due process, without habeas corpus, 
for close to three months, are presumed to be "terrorists" and thus are 
denied the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

(Note that the C. does _not_ say these rights are held by citizens. It 
says these rights existed _prior_ to the writing and ratification of the 
Constitution and apply to everyone. There are a few rights, such as 
voting, which are spelled out as applying to citizens above a certain 
age (varies according to Congress' whims), and so on, but it is clear 
which rights these are. To see this, imagine if it were decreed that 
only legal citizens who are not felons could practice a particular 
religion. Or could publish their ideas. Slam dunk violations of the 
First, regardless of citizenship status.)

The police state measures rushed into law by Congress will be used to 
suppress dissidents long after this war is over.

The one good thing about this action is that we won't have to hear from 
Congressvarmints complaining about some radical chick (not to be 
confused with radical chic) in Columbia given a secret military 
trial...we're now doing the same thing to our Constitution-spouting 
radicals!

ObBeckett: "Will no one rid us of that accursed city on the Potomac?"


--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From tonus at dsinet.org  Thu Nov 29 23:31:34 2001
From: tonus at dsinet.org (Casper Aleva)
Date: 30 Nov 2001 08:31:34 +0100
Subject: cryptoheaven.com (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <1007105495.30339.41.camel@gadis>

We got the following spam/press release in our tips mailbox.

============
From: 	Marcin: Kurzawa 
To: 	tips at dsinet.org
Subject: 	CryptoHeaven v1.0 -- news tip
Date: 	29 Nov 2001 12:40:50 -0500	

256 Bit Encryption for Secure Email and Secure Online File Storage
 
CryptoHeaven is a new, secure online service released by CryptoHeaven
Development Team.  The product is intended for individuals in need of
security and privacy working together in small groups.
 
CryptoHeaven is the only secure online system currently integrating
secure email, secure instant messaging (with multi party support),
secure online file storage & file sharing in one unique package.
 
Our services are available over the internet from anywhere, anytime. 
Automatic key and contact management ensures you can use your account
from any computer connected to the internet. An easy to use, integrated
user interface capable of running on most current computers ensures that
all services are always available, regardless of where you may be.
 
Your privacy is at all times protected with the highest level
cryptography available: 256 bit symmetric key and 2048-4096 bit
asymmetric keys.  The level of security offered is unmatched in the
industry.
 
Free and premium accounts are available.  Take it for a test drive and
invite your friends to try it too.
 
CryptoHeaven is confident in its system, and as such we release the
source code to any interested party for a review, free of charge.
 
http://www.cryptoheaven.com
===============

Casper Aleva

Dutch Security Information Network
e: tonus at dsinet.org
w: http://www.DSINet.org/
c: http://www.DSINet.org/casper/pubkey.txt
==
"Don't quote, I want to know what _you_ have to say." -Unknown


On Fri, 2001-11-30 at 07:10, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: 28 Nov 2001 09:37:28 -0800
> From: Sidney Markowitz 
> To: Cryptography Mailing List 
> Subject: cryptoheaven.com
> 
> I haven't seen mention of this on the mailing list and it is new enough
> that it doesn't show up in a google search as of the moment I am typing
> this.
> 
> Looking at http://www.cryptoheaven.com it appears they provide anonymous
> encrypted services including email, instant messaging (chat), and server
> based file storage. Their client code is open source Java. They appear
> to use standard algorithms. They are based in Canada. The services are
> free at small volumes (supposedly suitable for ordinary personal use)
> and for fee at higher volumes.
> 
> I only know what I see on their website. Has anyone else heard of these
> people?
> 
>  -- sidney 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Cryptography Mailing List
> Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com
> 

-------------- next part --------------
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From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Nov 29 13:37:24 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:37:24 +1100
Subject: Qld DEFENS largest outside the US attn jya
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130083516.00a60d80@pop.useoz.com>


Working Conference on Complex and Dynamic Systems Architecture
Date: Dec 12, 2001 - Dec 14, 2001

Location: Brisbane Marriott Hotel, 515 Queen Street, Brisbane, Queensland.

The Distributed Systems Technology Centre (DSTC) and University of 
Queensland host an international conference on complex and dynamic systems 
architecture. It will feature high-level representation from Australian and 
international researchers, including US Defence research organisations, US 
Defence contractors and US Government standards groups. With such key 
representation, the conference will be of interest to companies and 
departments reliant on the successful operation of large complex systems 
and in particular, organisations participating in the national and 
international defence communities. Specifically, the conference bridges 
international research and industrial and defence communities in order to 
share ideas and increase synergy between theoretical and empirical work. 
Program topics include reconfigurable software, architecture definition 
languages, configuration management, embedded system architectures, 
survivability, software architecture documentation, modelling 
re-configurable distributed systems, component compositions, ACME, probes 
and gauges in event-based systems, composition of behavioural 
specifications, system generators, composition analysis, peer-to-peer 
workflow, co-evolving and adaptive systems, adhoc federation, adaptive 
threat environments and semantic interoperability.

Contact: Kelli Shanahan
Tel: (07) 3365 4310
E-mail: kellis at dstc.edu.au
URL: http://cdsa.dstc.edu.au




From 5250906ultimate at excite.com  Fri Nov 30 08:52:50 2001
From: 5250906ultimate at excite.com (5250906ultimate at excite.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:52:50
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Message-ID: <200111300052.fAU0q3m11978@chxmail>


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From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Nov 30 05:57:12 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:57:12 -0500 (est)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


So by your terms, I should have the right to enter your house at 3:00am
when you're asleep and make long loud ranting speeches using a bullhorn
shoved in your ear?

Ok, I'll be over tomorrow night, then.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:
> 
> > > Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
> > 
> > Its not censorship if its not the government.
> 
> Bullshit. Any time ANY(!!!) party interferes with your free expression it
> is censorship.
> 
k




From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Nov 30 09:05:23 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:05:23 -0800
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130211048.009f7070@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C074BD3.9614.14ECC3@localhost>


    --
On 30 Nov 2001, at 21:21, mattd wrote:
> "libertarian socialist" is an oxymoron." Like
> anarcho-capitalist?

Anarcho capitalism corresponds to what any normal person
would call anarchy -- see for example my web page "Brief
explanation of anarcho capitalism"
http://www.jim.com/anarcho-.htm

Explanations of "anarcho" socialism are evasive, euphemistic
and full of equivocations.  When they go into detail, for
example par-econ, they describe in pleasant sounding words a
system more centralized and authoritarian in form and theory
than Stalin's was in form and theory, and often more
centralized and authoritarian even in theory than Maoism was
in actual practice.

If we go back to before 1936 there were various unclear,
confused, self contradictory, but undeniably sincere
proposals as to how to implement anarcho socialism.  Then
disaster struck. They actually had a go at it, with entirely
predictable results.  The contradiction between socialism and
anarchism was demonstrated with the usual rivers of blood.
Some became disillusioned.  Some reinterpreted their now
inconvenient past positions as standard socialism. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     XTtxm0n0NJYn22tGuTgjnb/I/8pFZ/4F/GPmswQS
     4WQUz86T9xxAvoWOQ1+XoDx7DDoI0GoYPO90ChZ7V




From hakkin at sarin.com  Fri Nov 30 09:28:13 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:28:13 -0800
Subject: Portland police refuses to ask FBI's illegal questions
Message-ID: <3C07C1AD.B9502658@sarin.com>


We hereby call for publication of the list of (possibly illegal)
questions
that the FBI wants local cops to ask the swarthies...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-113001port.story

Now Portland Comes In for Questioning
Probe: Oregon city and its police chief catch flak for refusing to
interview
foreigners on a U.S. list.

By LYNN MARSHALL and TOM GORMAN , Times
Staff Writers

PORTLAND, Ore. -- Even after a 32-year career with
the Los Angeles Police Department and two years here,
Police Chief Mark Kroeker says he has never
experienced the pummeling he is taking these days.

Law enforcement officers in the rest of the nation are
questioning foreigners about their possible knowledge
of terrorist activities. But Kroeker, worried about civil
rights violations, has said his officers will not join in this
task. His is the only police agency in the country to
refuse to cooperate for such reasons, according to a
spokesman for the U.S. Justice Department.

                                                             Because of
                                                             that
                                                             decision,
                                                             based on
                                                             advice from

                                                             Portland's
                                                             city
                                                             attorney,
                                                             Kroeker is
                                                             winning
                                                             plaudits
                                                             from civil

libertarians.
                                                             But he is
                                                             catching
                                                             flak from
                      all over the country.

                      By Thursday, City Hall computers contained more
than
                      1,000 e-mails. Half came from outside Oregon and
                      were, one staffer said, universally critical of
the city's
                      position. From within Oregon, 60% of the
electronic
                      mail chastises the city for refusing to aid the
                      investigation.

                      "I am appalled and embarrassed to be an
Oregonian,"
                      wrote one local man. "You . . . have completely
lost
                      perspective and what appears to be any remnant of
                      common sense."

                      And another: "We are disgusted and saddened. . . .
We
                      consider the city of Portland and the state of
Oregon to
                      be a haven for terrorists. We will discontinue
traveling
                      there as a company."

                      The director of the Citizens Crime Commission said
he
                      worries that the city attorney's ruling besmirches
the
                      city.

                      "Now it's a national story: Portland isn't
cooperating,"
                      said Ray Mathis. "It makes the city look bad."

                      Criticism also is coming from within the ranks of
the
                      Police Bureau. "We're embarrassed by the city's
                      decision," said Leo Painton, an officer with the
                      Portland Police Assn. "We're in a state of war,
and we
                      want to go out and do our part, to help solve the
4,000
                      murders they're investigating."

                      Chief Kroeker is reeling from the broadsides.

                      "I'm surprised by the reaction . . . and, to some
extent,
                      I feel I've been vilified," he said Thursday.
"I've never
                      experienced anything like this.

                      "I must say, it has been discouraging to hear the
level
                      of uninformed criticism and the lack of knowledge
of
                      all the work that we have done and are continuing
to do
                      to investigate terrorism," he said.

                      The uproar stems from a request earlier this month
by
                      U.S. Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft that law enforcement

                      agencies help an overwhelmed FBI to interview
about
                      5,000 men of Middle Eastern descent who have
                      entered the country in the last two years. The men
can
                      decline to be interviewed.

                      The Justice Department identified 23 residents for

                      questioning in Portland, a city of 503,000. The
Oregon
                      state attorney general and the local district
attorney said
                      they had no problem with Ashcroft's request.

                      Corvallis, south of Portland, also is not going to

                      interview 30 Middle Eastern men identified by the
                      Justice Department. Police Chief Pam Roskowski
said
                      she had no legal objections to the questioning,
but that
                      her college town of 50,000 would be better served
if
                      police focused on active criminal investigations.

                      Portland City Atty. Jeffrey Rogers had issued an
                      opinion that, based on his reading of Oregon law,
some
                      of the questions were illegally intrusive if asked
of
                      people who were not criminal suspects.

                      Some questions deal with the subject's sources of
                      income, education and foreign travel; others focus
more
                      specifically on the person's knowledge of
terrorism and
                      weapons.

                      Kroeker said he has no objection to questioning
foreign
                      men, with their consent, "as a fact-gathering
                      mechanism, a search for clues. This is a perfectly

                      legitimate investigative technique."

                      But because a few of the questions "abut the law,"

                      Kroeker said his officers won't ask any of them.
The
                      FBI said other agencies will interview the
Portland
                      men.

                      Portland Mayor Vera Katz stands firmly behind the
city attorney and police
                      chief. "I support the president," she said
Thursday, "but for the citizens of this
                      city to say that this [refusal] is a treasonable
act--that it's OK to break the
                      law--raises tremendous concerns."

                      The city's decision is "a courageous call--and the
right call," said David
                      Fidanque, executive director of the ACLU of
Oregon. "It's good to know there is
                      a police agency in Oregon that is serious about
not only investigating terrorist
                      activity, but also is serious about protecting the
rights of innocent people who
                      may be swept up in this very broad investigation."

                      Reaction on the street was decidedly mixed
Thursday.

                      "My father is from Saudi Arabia and all my family
is living in New York," said
                      hairdresser Karina El Hindi, 27. "I want these
[terrorists] caught, but I don't
                      think a sweep of people who look like me or my dad
will have any effect."

                      Portland's refusal to participate, she added,
"says that all people are welcomed
                      and treated fairly here."

                      John Peters, a 23-year-old graduate student,
agreed. "I want to be safe from
                      terrorists," he said while strolling through
downtown's Pioneer Place shopping
                      center, "but if we start questioning people based
on race or national origin,
                      where does it stop, and what's left of the system
once this is all over?"

                      Others figured that now is when laws can be bent.
"The questions are probably
                      offensive, but if they save even one life or send
a signal that America is more
                      vigilant now, I think that's much more important
than a legal technicality," said
                      Judy Rader, 38, an executive assistant at a
downtown business.

                      Kroeker left the LAPD as its deputy chief in 1997.
Popular among the
                      rank-and-file, he placed second to Bernard C.
Parks for the chief's job. Under
                      Parks, he had complained to colleagues that he
felt ostracized.

                      In Portland, Kroeker bristles at the notion that
his department is not carrying its
                      weight in the fight against terrorism. "This isn't
crazy Portland politics," he said.
                      "We're just trying to do the right thing."

                      Charlie Mathews, FBI special agent in charge in
Portland, said that despite the
                      differing legal opinions, Kroeker's officers are
actively involved on his
                      35-member anti-terrorism task force. "They're our
best partners," Mathews said.


                      "I appreciate the difficult situation he's in,"
Mathews said. "His attorney has
                      given him advice and he's following it, which is
what a professional does."

                      For all the civic debate over Kroeker's position,
computer programmer Phil
                      Jarvis, 33, said he can predict the ultimate
outcome: "This will all blow over in
                      six months. Portland already has a liberal
reputation and, at the most, this will
                      just become part of that."




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Fri Nov 30 06:33:18 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:33:18 -0500
Subject: fuel injected firearm
References: <9BDFBE30-E52C-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <3C0798AE.CBB5ED7B@acmenet.net>


Tim May wrote:
> 
> On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 04:32 PM, keyser-soze at hushmail.com
> wrote:
> 
> > Have any of the shootingpunks on the list heard of constructing a
> > firearm from something akin to a internal combustion chamber?
> 
> H&K was a prime contractor on the "caseless ammunition" system being
> considered for a bullpup rifle to replace the .223 variants. Fired three
> flechette-like projectiles, no case. (Cases add weight, and in principle
> one could dispense with them.)

Cases also have to be ejected. In principle, you can have a simpler
mechanism and a higher fire rate if you use caseless ammo. (In practice,
the only automatic caseless rifle I've seen (not an H&K) had a mechanism
virtually identical to any other gas operated automatice, down to the
ejector hook in case of a bad round.)


> If you mean something that runs on fairly conventional fuel, such as
> diesel or gasoline or alcohol, t's unlikely that enough muzzle velocity
> will be achievable in a reasonable-length barrel.

Right, petrol won't burn fast enough for direct propulsion. You might be
able to use a large combustion chamber and then neck down to get a
higher gas velocity, but (in the absense of actual calculations) I don't
think that would get you enough.

I suppose you could use something like space shuttle fuel; that burns
pretty fast. Of course, it's volatile, instable, corrosive, and
expensive...


> I did see a GyroJet pistol once. A rocket pistol, firing little
> rockets.  Early 60s. Very expensive. And suffered from the fact that
> each little rocket had to accelerate up to speed. Lots of chance for the
> target to move.

Gyrojet rounds burned out in, IIRC, 20 feet, and they covered that first
20 feet in a small fraction of a second. I don't think target dodging is
any more of an issue than with conventional bullets.

But the burning fuel might be a problem in another way: what if you
shoot someone who's less than 20 feet away? The rocket would keep
burning after it struck. Would that be viewed as torture, if you were
investigated for the shooting, be the shooting ever so justified? (Data
points: I've never pointed a pistol at anyone farther than about six
feet away. Once was under a foot. (Passenger in a small car tried to rob
me with a knife.) This is the norm for people who are actually shot with
pistols, as contrasted with being shot at.)


-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Fri Nov 30 07:55:08 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:55:08 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war' -November 
 29, 2001
References: <3C06D72F.F48537D4@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3C07ABD8.4EFBF71C@cybershamanix.com>


      Dubbya should be impeached, and both he and Asscruft arrested for
treason.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com





From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Nov 30 07:07:14 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:07:14 -0500 (est)
Subject: playstation? play dead. 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130080444.00a205e0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


What the fuck does a guy getting electrocuted while playing a playstation
game in a boat have to do with game theory or cypherpunks.

Quoting Heinlein isn't going to get you out of that one.  Pointing to
spammers and saying "But they do it too" still won't get you out of that
one.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, mattd wrote:

> ..."what the fuck does this have to do with cypherpunks? "
> 
> What the fuck does half the states trolls posts and spam have to do with 
> cypherpunks.PLAY has a lot to do with getting crypto mainstream in GAMES.Am 
> I playing in this surveilled strip mall till it closes...maybe.
> Someone with your sig should know some GAME THEORY.Also a reminder of 
> mortality like...
> 
> "Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But
> stupidity is the only universal crime;  the sentence is death, there is
> no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity."
> --Robert A. Heinlein




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 30 10:44:09 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:44:09 -0800
Subject: Trying again (Re: failure notice)
Message-ID: <3D962832-E5C2-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>



Attempting to get this through. About half of the messages I have tried 
to send to lne.com have failed with this error, the same reported by 
others. Some of these I have resent, others I have just let sit in my 
error box.

I value lne.com a lot, but the various weirdnesses (e.g., 24 hours 
without any messages, then a burst of them, and these bounces) may cause 
me to switch to some other node.



On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 10:07 AM, MAILER-DAEMON at got.net wrote:

> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at got.net.
> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following 
> addresses.
> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
>
> :
> 209.245.148.2 does not like recipient.
> Remote host said: 550 ... User unknown
> Giving up on 209.245.148.2.
>
> --- Below this line is a copy of the message.
>
> Return-Path: 
> Received: (qmail 19567 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2001 18:01:22 -0000
> Received: from 66-81-40-74-modem.o1.com (HELO localhost) (66.81.40.74)
>   by always.got.net with SMTP; 30 Nov 2001 18:01:22 -0000
> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:01:01 -0800
> Subject: Re: CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war' 
> -November  29, 2001
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v472)
> From: Tim May 
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> In-Reply-To: <20011130120605.A13067 at weathership.homeport.org>
> Message-Id: <36F4438C-E5BC-11D5-9093-0050E439C473 at got.net>
> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.472)
>
>
> On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 09:06 AM, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 08:21:32AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>> | On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 07:55 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>> |
>> | >       Dubbya should be impeached, and both he and Asscruft arrested
>> for
>> | > treason.
>> |
>> | Quite interesting the language they keep using: "Terrorists don't 
>> have
>> | rights."
>> |
>> | The 1200 persons detained without due process, without habeas corpus,
>> | for close to three months, are presumed to be "terrorists" and thus
>> are
>> | denied the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
>>
>> No, they're not.  See this article in yesterday's Times:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/28/national/28LEGA.html?ex=1007614800&en=
>> ec5ced02619720c8&
>> ei=5040&partner=MOREOVER
>>
>
> I see nothing in this article to alter the gist of what I said. The
> article says 1100 were held at one time. 548 still being held. Yeah, the
> charges are vague "immigration violations," but we know why they were
> really detained and are still being held. (BTW, lawyers for a bunch of
> them, those who have managed to get lawyers that is, have said their
> clients would like to return to their home countries. Should be SOP to
> let a "immigration violation" detainee solve the problem by leaving,
> right?)
>
> An undisclosed number of those detainees are being held incommunicado as
> "material witnesses." Not as immigration violations, but as "material
> witnesses." The same vague basis could be used to arrest and detain
> without charge dozens of folks just like us on our list.
>
> Civil liberties types used to gasp at British plans to arrest suspects
> without charge and hold them for up to 72 hours on the say-so of a
> burowcrat...look at the holding of 548-1100 people for a period of
> weeks-months without any charges being filed in open court.
>
> "Immigration violations" and "material witness" my ass!
>
>>
>> What grounds Ashcroft is using to deny them their civil rights is not
>> clear.
>>
>> Who will rid me of this meddlesome Constitution, indeed.
>>
>> | The police state measures rushed into law by Congress will be used to
>> | suppress dissidents long after this war is over.
>>
>> Quite sad.  There was an article in IP last night about Canada doing
>> the same thing; defining protesters as terrorists.  (There's a history
>> here; the RCMP was quite vicious in its post-arrest treatment of
>> protesters against some Indonesian dictator a few years ago.)
>
> I expect the next Cypherpunk to be arrested will be tried under these
> new "terrorist" laws.
>
> I won't go so far as to predict that a dozen active list members will be
> rounded up in pre-dawn raids and held incommunicado and without charges
> being filed promptly, and with normal bail procedures, but it wouldn't
> surprise me.
>
> What it will probably take is for some kind of ricin attack on Federal
> Persecutor offices. A few dozen dead Feds and I'd expect every group
> that has ever discussed ricin and sarin to be raided.
>
> Terrorists have no rights. First we determine them to be terrorists,
> then we hold a military tribunal. Amerikan justice is the envy of the
> world.
>
> --Tim May
> "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things
> have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to
> make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?"
> --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago
>
>
--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 30 10:45:03 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:45:03 -0800
Subject: failure notice
Message-ID: <5D701A06-E5C2-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>



Resend effort.


On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 10:13 AM, MAILER-DAEMON at got.net wrote:

> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at got.net.
> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following 
> addresses.
> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
>
> :
> 209.245.148.2 does not like recipient.
> Remote host said: 550 ... User unknown
> Giving up on 209.245.148.2.
>
> --- Below this line is a copy of the message.
>
> Return-Path: 
> Received: (qmail 30319 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2001 18:13:03 -0000
> Received: from 66-81-40-74-modem.o1.com (HELO localhost) (66.81.40.74)
>   by always.got.net with SMTP; 30 Nov 2001 18:13:03 -0000
> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:12:42 -0800
> Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v472)
> From: Tim May 
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011130080433.007d24a0 at pop.sprynet.com>
> Message-Id: 
> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.472)
>
>
> On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 08:04 AM, David Honig wrote:
>
>> At 10:38 PM 11/29/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:
>>>
>>>> Um, Jim, despite the slump, there still plenty of free lowbrow sites
>>>> for
>>>> Joe Random to start a mailing list for anything, so Tim's financial
>>>> status is irrelevent.
>>>
>>> But Joe Random isn't a Cypherpunks Leader...
>>
>> Neither is Tim.  He's an author.  Not every one with an
>> opinion has the disorder that makes them crave the role of leader.
>>
>> In addition to the intrinsic irony of 'cp leader' ---a concept
>> favored by the legal types who think in terms of the subservient
>> hierarchies that they live in, but largely their *projection*.
>>
>> Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat.
>
> That's a good one. I've added it to my rotating .sig collection.
>
> As for Choate's natterings, not worth commenting on.
>
>
>
>
> --Tim May
> "Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David
> Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11
>
>
--Tim May
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago




From umiag6 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 30 02:49:23 2001
From: umiag6 at yahoo.com (umiag6 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:49:23 +0000
Subject: business proposition
Message-ID: <200111290949.BAA24918@toad.com>


URGENT BUSINESS PROPOSAL

This letter may come to you as a surprise since it is coming from someone you have not met before.  However, we decided to contact you based on a satisfactory information we had about your business person as regard business information concerning your country and the safety of our funds in a steady economy such as that of your country compared to our country Nigeria Africa.

I am a civil adviser currently working with the monitoring committee overseeing the winding up of the petroleum trust fund(PTF).Myself and my close and trusted colleagues need your assistance in the 
transfer of US$25 million into any reliable Account you may nominate overseas.

This fund was generated from over-invoicing of contracts executed by the PTF under the administration of the past military government.These were discovered while we were reviewing the PTF accounts.

>From our discoveries,these contracts have been executed and the contractors in question were all paid.The difference of US$25,000,000 being the over-invoiced amount is the funds,we want your corporate entity to help us receive. 

What we want from you is a good and reliable company or personal Account into which we shall transfer this fund.

Details should include the following:

1. Name of Bank
2. Address of Bank with Fax & Tel. No.
3. Account Number
4. Beneficiary/Signatory to Account (Account Name)

Upon the Successful crediting of your Account.The fund will be shared as follows:
1. 20% for you and your assistance
2. 70% for myself & my Colleagues
3. 10% for contingency expenses

Please after your first reply through e-mail,I will want us to continue further communication by fax and telephone for confidential purpose. We wish to assure you that your involvement should you decide to assist us, will be well protected, and also, this business, proposal is 100% risk free as we have put a whole lot into it.

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation while we look forward to a mutually benefiting business relationship with you.

Please when replying to my e-mail kindly include your telephone, fax number and mobile telephone numbers preferably extremely private numbers where we can reach you any time of the day.Please be aware that a high level of confidentiality and trust is required in this business.My private telephone number is 234 1 7754093 and fax number is 234 9 2720239.

Best Regards,

Dr. George Umia.

Fax: 234 9 2720239
Tel: 234 1 7754093
email:umiageorge at eudoramail.com







From measl at mfn.org  Fri Nov 30 08:49:39 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:49:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war'
 -November  29, 2001
In-Reply-To: <3C07ABD8.4EFBF71C@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>       Dubbya should be impeached, and both he and Asscruft arrested for
> treason.

While I agree with you in principal, it would not be an easy thing to do
under the [constituional] circumstances.  The problem is that the law is well
settled that a president may invoke these powers during times of _declared_
war.  Although congress declined a formal declaration, they did provide a
defacto one with their support and authorization of military force ditty.  It
is unlikely that *any* supreme court, much less the sitting one, would deny
Shrub the argument that the country is in a state of war, and therefore has
the requisite autority as the sitting CIC.

The more plausible avenue for legal attack on these two rodents would lie in
the 1200 or so persons detained without even the most basic of constitutional
protections, as well as the current "decision" to monitor [formerly]
privileged [attorney-client] communications.  Also look for legal fodder in
upcoming "anti-terror" legislation aimed at citizens, rather than at foreign
residents.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Nov 30 08:02:11 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:02:11 -0500 (est)
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Neither is John Gilmore.

On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> But Joe Random isn't a Cypherpunks Leader...




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Nov 30 08:04:42 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:04:42 -0500
Subject: fuel injected firearm
Message-ID: 


While I'm not a shootingpunk, here a couple points.

1. The space behind the slug of a man-usable firearm isn't that
big. To get a decent velocity you have to pack it with a propellant
with a high energy content. Gas or vapor phase systems are 
generally too low in energy/volume  (consider: you can run a
car on cylinders with <100cc of space above the cylinder at
max compression. If you filled the same space with cordite
you'd blow the engine apart instantly).

Using a larger combustion chamber feeding into the space
behind the slug might work (search on gas guns). The whole 
thing gets complex and heavy, since you have to mix the 
fuel and oxidizer, and feed in the slug.

2. Liquid propellant guns (search on that term) are well
developed for artillary, but I don't know of any light 
weapons which use this. LPGs are kind of neat in 
howitzer type applications because (1) A tank of
propellant & a rack of projectiles takes less space
than cased solid propellant shells, so you can carry
more ammo, and (2) you can vary the propellant
from shot to shot based on emergent conditions. One
neat hack is 'time on target' in which a series of rounds
are fired in quick succession, at different elevations and
propellant load so they all arrive at the target simultaneously.
(the LPG liquid propellant does not need an added oxidizer).

Peter Trei

> ----------
> From: 	keyser-soze at hushmail.com[SMTP:keyser-soze at hushmail.com]
> Sent: 	Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:32 PM
> To: 	cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: 	fuel injected firearm
> 
> Have any of the shootingpunks on the list heard of constructing a firearm
> from something akin to a internal combustion chamber?




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Fri Nov 30 02:54:39 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:54:39 +0100 (MET)
Subject: HDCP break and DMCA
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011129172251.007d6e40@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:

> If this were Germany, you'd pay a tax to publishers for every
> ream of blank paper you bought...

CDR media are affected. CD writers are affected (HP has been sued). Even
attempts to extend this to other storage products such as hard drives are
reported. Of course, individuals can stay under the radar by ordering
parts from overseas.




From adam at homeport.org  Fri Nov 30 09:06:05 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:06:05 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war'
  -November  29, 2001
In-Reply-To: <513A3535-E5AE-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3C07ABD8.4EFBF71C@cybershamanix.com>
  <513A3535-E5AE-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011130120605.A13067@weathership.homeport.org>


On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 08:21:32AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
| On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 07:55 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
| 
| >       Dubbya should be impeached, and both he and Asscruft arrested for
| > treason.
|
| Quite interesting the language they keep using: "Terrorists don't have 
| rights."
| 
| The 1200 persons detained without due process, without habeas corpus, 
| for close to three months, are presumed to be "terrorists" and thus are 
| denied the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

No, they're not.  See this article in yesterday's Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/28/national/28LEGA.html?ex=1007614800&en=ec5ced02619720c8&ei=5040&partner=MOREOVER 

> "After two months of conducting the domestic war on terrorism
> largely in private, the prospect of stiff public scrutiny of his
> Justice Department apparently moved Mr. Ashcroft to provide many
> more details about 548 people, mostly from Mideastern countries, in
> custody and charged with violations of immigration law, and to
> release the names and more details of about 100 people charged with
> other crimes."

What grounds Ashcroft is using to deny them their civil rights is not
clear.

Who will rid me of this meddlesome Constitution, indeed.

| The police state measures rushed into law by Congress will be used to 
| suppress dissidents long after this war is over.

Quite sad.  There was an article in IP last night about Canada doing
the same thing; defining protesters as terrorists.  (There's a history
here; the RCMP was quite vicious in its post-arrest treatment of
protesters against some Indonesian dictator a few years ago.)

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200111/msg00373.html

The irony of my longstanding sig may soon be more than I can stand.


Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From weidai at eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 12:14:13 2001
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:14:13 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <3C06921E.23156.2672FDC@localhost>; from
  georgemw@speakeasy.net on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:53:02PM -0800
References: ;
  <20011129161140.A18624@eskimo.com> <3C06921E.23156.2672FDC@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011130121413.C11032@eskimo.com>


On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:53:02PM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
> Even this is not a scalar.  Since reputation cannot be bought
> and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is
> false.

If you own a nym, you can easily sell its reputation. Just give the
private key to the buyer.

> well, maybe.  But if we define reputation capital the way you did
> (the value one places on one's own reputation) then it's important
> to be aware that one can only know the value of one's own 
> reputation capital.

Yes, I see that as the biggest problem with reputation capital, which is
why I proposed a different way of providing disincentives for nyms to do
bad things. See http://www.eskimo.com/~weidai/bmoney.txt.

> 2) you can see to it that the bank doesn't know who
> "you" are when you buy the certificates in the first place.

How do you propose to do that?




From reply_achieve at prontomail.com  Fri Nov 30 10:35:38 2001
From: reply_achieve at prontomail.com (reply_achieve at prontomail.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:35:38 -0600 (GMT)
Subject: This really works!
Message-ID: <20011130183559.29991.qmail@oc31.ocservers.net>



I'll make you a promise. READ THIS E-MAIL TO THE END! - follow what it says to the letter - and you will not worry whether a RECESSION is coming or not, who is President, or whether you keep your current job or not. Yes, I know what you are thinking. I never responded to one of these before either. One day though, something just said "you throw away $25.00 going to a movie for 2 hours with your wife". "What the heck." Believe me, no matter 
where you believe "those feelings" come from, I thank every day that I had that feeling. 

I cannot imagine where I would be or what I would be doing had I not. Read on. It's true. Every word of it. It is legal. I checked. Simply because you are buying and selling something of value.

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home.

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET !
==================================================
BE AN INTERNET MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can "follow the simple instruction" they are bound to make some mega-bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''.

DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN
EVER.

This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received a total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.
==================================================
Another said: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' 

More testimonials later but first, =======

==== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ====
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!

INSTRUCTIONS:

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT
YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose
name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

===WHEN YOU PLACE YOUR ORDER, MAKE SURE ===
===YOU ORDER EACH OF THE 5 REPORTS! ===
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00.

Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer.

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, some have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you 
do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

This IS a legitimate BUSINESS. You are offering a product for sale and getting paid for it. Treat it as such and you will be VERY profitable in a short period of time.

1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.

2..Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.

3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! This is
critical to YOUR success.

==================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 primary methods to get this venture going:

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
==================================================

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% (2/10 of 1%) response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%). Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 
each).

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2.

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3.

Those 1000 people send 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 5 million
e-mail sent out. The 0.2% response is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
50,000,000(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. 

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half a million dollars).

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 
3.....$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5.... $500,000 .... Grand Total=$555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE
WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!
==================================================

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING
OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more?

There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting, with thousands more coming on line every day. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
==================================================

Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders.

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report.

===========AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================
The reason for the "cash" is not because this is illegal or somehow "wrong". It is simply about time. Time for checks or credit cards to be cleared or approved, etc. Concealing it is simply so no one can SEE there is money in the envelope and steal it before it gets to you.

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always
send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
==================================================
REPORT # 1: 'The Insider's Guide To Advertising for Free On The Net 

Order Report #1 from : 
Neil Johnson
PO Box 361
Turbeville,  SC  29162
USA

______________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide To Sending Bulk Email On The Net

Order Report # 2 from: 
D.K. Mercer
22191 Atlantic Pte.
Farmington Hills, MI 48336
USA

______________________________________________________

REPORT # 3: Secret To Multilevel Marketing On The Net

Order Report # 3 from : 
M.A. Gaglianese
P.O. Box 61432
Fort Myers, FL 33906
USA

______________________________________________________

REPORT # 4: How To Become A Millionaire Using MLM & The Net

Order Report # 4 from: 
Stone Evans 
600 N. Pearl, Suite G103
Dallas, TX 75201
USA

______________________________________________________

REPORT # 5: How To Send Out One Million Emails For Free

Order Report # 5 From: 
Maxime Laurent 
616 Sainte Famille 
Boucherville, Quebec, J4B 4A6 
Canada

______________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

**Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report.

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!!
=================================================
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: 
You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 .....# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. 

Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent.

IT IS UP TO YOU NOW !

=============MORE TESTIMONIALS===============
''My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving 'junk mail'. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. 

Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $47,200.00 ......... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby".

Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois
================================================
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Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada
=================================================
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=================================================
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=================================================

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=================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

*********************************************************

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From hackercds at bigfoot.com  Fri Nov 30 12:50:06 2001
From: hackercds at bigfoot.com (hackercds at bigfoot.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:50:06
Subject: Seach Engine Secrets & Targeted Email Secrets/Software
Message-ID: <200111302040.MAA24279@toad.com>


$24.95 --  http://www.dns101.com/~tom

* Infoseek, Alta Vista, and HotBot ban web sites which break their rules (many of the 'insider' techniques most experts recommend will get you 
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although we can show you a technique we use to get hundreds of our pages listed.
* Yahoo only lists about 1% of the web in their actual directory. To even get your page listed, you may have to use the "backdoor".
* Using a so-called search engine submission software that submits your site to 1,000 or more search engines could actually get your page deleted 
from the major search engines.
* 95% of Internet traffic originates at one of the 10 major search engines...If you're not listed, you might as well not even have a web site!
* Choosing the most effective 'keywords' is one of the major keys to a successful web site submission...Pick the right ones and your web site will 
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* The Infamous Yahoo backdoor...You can get listed and we will show you the quickest and easiest method for doing so!
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$24.95 --  http://www.dns101.com/~tom

This message is in full compliance with U.S. Federal requirements for commercial email under bill S.1618 Title lll, Section 301, Paragraph (a)
(2)(C) passed by the 105th U.S. Congress and cannot be considered SPAM since it includes a remove mechanism. Further transmissions by the 
sender may be stopped at no cost to you by replying to the email address tom4ta at post1.com and placing remove in the subject line.





From sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 30 12:59:09 2001
From: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com (sonofgomez709)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:59:09 -0800
Subject: The MOTHERLOAD [WAS: Re: The FATHERLAND...] [WAS!WAS: Prologue II - The Chronicles Of Arnold 0000 0000 ]
References: <20011130191328.E31023465A@hun.org>
Message-ID: <001501c179e1$df0c1cc0$ea0da2cd@vaio>

re: The FATHERLAND...There will soon be no Swine to Cast Pearls before (even when they
write first), since the Host of the Toad List which originally attracted
all of the Swine is shutting down the MotherOfAllDisturbedMaleLISPs
after having realized--all of the Chickens having flown the CoOp
(mysteriously leaving nothing but BullShit in their wake)--that he
had created an Animal Farm in a BraveGnuWorld.

This of course leaves the OriginalMixedMetaphorPlagarist UpATree
WithOutAPaddle, as BothReaders[TM] of the 'The True Story Of
The InterNet' Manuscripts (me and Jeff Gordon, eh?) are both
redundantly awaiting the Release&OR&Escape of 'The Chronicles
of Arnold' aka Part V of 'TTSOTI (aka 'The Prison Writings of a
Free[h] Man,' aka 'Don't Crush That rEvolutionary Dwarf Pile Me 
The Handlers'), just when the HostOfTheParasite is Wiping the
BottomFeeders from the Toad's Ass.

However, since the Author is UpTheCreek and ShitRunsDownHill,
I am certain that SlalomFishingInAmeri%a will find a new BitStream
in which to practice ReleaseAndCatch Fishing&OR&Trolling with
BarbedHooks ("NoPainNoGain") while FuckTheseMorons![TM] can
continue to practice ClaimToCatchAndDon'tRelease Netting
("WeMayOnlyKeepOneLittleOneButWe'llScareTheBeJesus
OutOfTheBigOnes").

I forsee a 'Pull-It, Sir. Prize' from the Master Baiters&OR&Writers Watchers 
Club of the Ameri%an JustU$.$y$tem.

[Fortunately, it is Alec McCrackin's turn to be Toto during the NEXT Circle
of Eunuchs [Dog]ShowTrial (I just wish that I could have got him to agree
to it in *writing*, eh?)]

CJ Parker 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sonofgomez709
http://members.w-link.net/~sog/INDEX.HTM
ICQ 138724628
"The True Story Of The InterNet"
The Xenix ChainSaw Massacre
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/xenix/
WebWorld & The Mythical Circle Of Eunuchs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/webworld/ 
InfoWar: Final Frontier Of The Digital rEvolution
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/infowarriors/
Space Aliens Hide My Drugs
http://www.technopagan.org/politics/sahmd/ 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: attila! 
  To: sonofgomez709 
  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:13 AM
  Subject: re: The FATHERLAND...




                    It's a shame that such truths are but casting pearls before swine. It's also a shame the Gestapo, AndWeKnowWhoTheyAre [TM] has no sense of humour. 
                    I would say post via an anonymous remailer, but are there any left? I'd put one up, but it would not give you much cover ... your style is too TM'd --with or without the TMs. Oh, sure, I can do a pretty fair job of mimicing your style, but that will only get us both in the cannibals' pot. 

                    Oh, well, this one at least falls under what is supposed to be free speech --that is until CAIR or some other Islamist front files a claim of hate speech. 

                    Welcome to Ameri%a! 
                         --attila 


                   
             
             
        Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:37:32 -0800 
        If the PowersThatBe would just substitute the word FATHERLAND for the word HOMELAND, then THEY [TM] would be able to recycle all of the Third Reich speeches and propaganda material in the march toward the Ameri%an establishment of the Fourth Reich. 

        All that would have to be done is to substitute the word 'Muslim' for the word 'Jew' once the pretense of religious impartiality is given up in the War On (Their) Terrorism. 

        OfCourseOfCourse [TM], this pretense is going to be maintained, for the time being, despite the obviously religiously biased demands by the U.S. that the new Afghanistan regime that we have installed disregard Islamic beliefs and tradition in regard to women when forming a new government, even as the U.S. supports and encourages, through tax breaks, Fundamentalist Christian religious organizations which refuse American women positions of authority, or even the right to speak, in their churches. 

        The FATHERLAND had to take away all citizens' rights in order to protect us from the Jews, while the HOMELAND has to take away all of our rights to protect us from the (Can eWe say, 'MuslimMuslimMuslimMuslimMuslim?' Sure, eWe can...) Terrorists. 

        When Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time... Now we need someone to make sure that the planes run on time... No problem, THEY [TM] are way ahead of us on this one... 

        HOMELAND SECURITY now seems to Require/Justify an all-out war against every country which has, according to unverified claims of any ThreeLetterAgency, appeared to have maybe perhaps failed to have taken direct action against those that the U.S. has failed to take direct action against, because there was not yet any reason to. As well, it seems that HOMELAND security requires us to expect a LOYALTY OATH from every country, and every citizen of that country, in which Terrorists may be resident or doing business with, which, ByGoshByGolly, just seems to happen to be every country in the world. 

        "Those who aren't with us are against us. And those who don't toe the line with everything we say aren't with us." "Anything not permitted is forbidden." 


       

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From frissell at panix.com  Fri Nov 30 10:01:48 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:01:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war'  -November
  29, 2001
In-Reply-To: <3C07ABD8.4EFBF71C@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: 



But they won't be.  In any case, how are they "levying War against
them [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid
and Comfort?

DCF


On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>       Dubbya should be impeached, and both he and Asscruft arrested for
> treason.
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>




From wolf at priori.net  Fri Nov 30 13:16:02 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:16:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war' - 
 November 29, 2001
In-Reply-To: <3C06D72F.F48537D4@ssz.com>
Message-ID: 


See Sandy? Even a blind clock finds a squirrel twice a day.


-MW-

On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Bush is full of shit.




From Montalbano_Milissa at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 30 13:21:38 2001
From: Montalbano_Milissa at hotmail.com (Milissa Montalbano)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:21:38 -0800
Subject: Theft
Message-ID: 

I'm in search for one of your representatives, or National Security.  I have been able to read Thommy Thompson III's mind.  I showed up at Jaguar Glass, in Eugene, Oregon and let him know about the money that he stole from government agencies, including the FBI, which ironically protects him.  He thought I was undercover or believed I was a human computer; which he still may believe. He witnesses that his computers talk to me, as if I were one of them.  I can tell what program his computers are on and what they are interlocking with most of the time.  He gave me a 400 million dollar check that day, as I sat there reading his mind explaining to him what I knew.  At that point he had 8-10 billion dollars of government money/funding hidden away.  But after the planes went down he stole over a 100 billion. He used Mike's pin#  and password to get into National Security.  He helped himself into instruments and institutions, and began using them incorrectly and illegally. I am offering National Security or any Representative a lot of my money to help me put this man away.  It seems he is being protected by the forces I need.  He is station #3 of the HAARP Project and I'm in search for anyone ready to earn a lot of money; for actually representing the United States of America the Right Way.
He's been looking into the minds of his people and brainwashing them, so he will not be seen.  I can read his mind faster than any instrument, and ironically he seems he has to answer my questions like I was a machine. When I listen, I can hear him telling people he's playing God and to digest this information; or to Change their mind. Another one he uses, line one--, line two--, line three--, Lock and Load, which also seems to convince people that he is innocent.  He changes the information nightly so he won't be seen, for he is a computer programmer as you will soon see.  I've even tried try to get the HAARP to tune into me, so they could see me which would see him. 
This is just the beginning of what I know.  Eugene, Oregon's FBI seem to be full of idiots or his "Change Your mind Method" is working pretty damn good.  Right now I get denied as they listen to him and not me. But COME ON PEOPLE, He wrote me a $400 Million dollar check. (SO, WAKE UP!  FBI, because you are obviously, virtually blind),. This Nation seems to be lacking people like me.  That can discover people like Thommy Thompson III and his black market industry. 


Thank you,
Milissa Montalbano ( 28 years Old )
2145 Klamath St.
Roseburg, Oregon 97470
Montalbano_Milissa at Hotmail.com
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From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Nov 30 10:34:53 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:34:53 -0500 (est)
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011130154754.B15620@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: 


Simple.  Once the buyer has the keys she issues an email saying "I'm
changing my keys, here's the new public key" and signs it with the old key
- thus proving that the nym's original message was valid, thus
invalidating the old one.  Duh!


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 12:14:13PM -0800, Wei Dai wrote:
> | On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:53:02PM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
> | > Even this is not a scalar.  Since reputation cannot be bought
> | > and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is
> | > false.
> | 
> | If you own a nym, you can easily sell its reputation. Just give the
> | private key to the buyer.
> 
> How does the buyer ensure that I haven't kept a copy?  If what I'm
> selling is a nym, then without the nym, I am anonymous.  Adding layers 
> of nymity for reputation with partial disclosure seems a complex and
> failure-prone approach. 
> 
> Adam
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume




From weidai at eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 13:56:52 2001
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:56:52 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org>; from adam@homeport.org on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 04:28:58PM -0500
References: <20011130154754.B15620@weathership.homeport.org>  <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <20011130135652.D11032@eskimo.com>


On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 04:28:58PM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> Following which, Alice pulls out the pre-dated revocation certificate, 
> and generates confusion as to the validity of Bob's key change message.

I guess we would need a distributed public registry of key
change/revocation messages that guarantees only one such message will be
posted per key, and any revocation messages not posted to this registry
would be ignored.

Again, I don't think reputation capital is the best solution to the
problem that it tries to solve. I'm just trying to defend it against the
charge that it's a nonsensical idea. I still propose b-money as a better
alternative. Maybe Tim has found an even better solution, and if so I
certainly look forward to seeing it.




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 30 14:05:27 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:05:27 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011130135652.D11032@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <5CD3184A-E5DE-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>



On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 01:56 PM, Wei Dai wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 04:28:58PM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>> Following which, Alice pulls out the pre-dated revocation certificate,
>> and generates confusion as to the validity of Bob's key change message.
>
> I guess we would need a distributed public registry of key
> change/revocation messages that guarantees only one such message will be
> posted per key, and any revocation messages not posted to this registry
> would be ignored.
>
> Again, I don't think reputation capital is the best solution to the
> problem that it tries to solve. I'm just trying to defend it against the
> charge that it's a nonsensical idea. I still propose b-money as a better
> alternative. Maybe Tim has found an even better solution, and if so I
> certainly look forward to seeing it.

I'm writing a response to your long reply to my long article.

(You hadn't responded to my article for some number of days after it 
appeared, which is fine, but that's why I haven't felt pressured to 
reply immediately to your reply.)

I'll try to get it out later today or tomorrow.

But so there's no suspense, I'm not claiming a better cryptographic 
protocol, certainly not involving distributed key registries for nym 
reputations. It's that whole approach I'm arguing against.

Which I think I argued for reasonably well in the long post. If you or 
others are not convinced, fine. But I will send off the reply on 
specific points later, tonight or tomorrow.



--Tim May
"Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David 
Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11




From wolf at priori.net  Fri Nov 30 14:26:04 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:26:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Following which the buyer posts all the signed emails between self and
> seller detailing the fraudulent transaction.

Worthless, as all of those messages could have been forged. Or did you
mean to say that they had been dated by a third party timestamping
service?

The fact is, digital signatures are irrelevant if private keys can be
compromised.


-MW-




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Nov 30 11:34:23 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:34:23 -0500
Subject: fuel injected firearm
Message-ID: 


> 	Steven Furlong[SMTP:sfurlong at acmenet.net]
> 
> > I did see a GyroJet pistol once. A rocket pistol, firing little
> > rockets.  Early 60s. Very expensive. And suffered from the fact that
> > each little rocket had to accelerate up to speed. Lots of chance for the
> > target to move.
> 
> Gyrojet rounds burned out in, IIRC, 20 feet, and they covered that first
> 20 feet in a small fraction of a second. I don't think target dodging is
> any more of an issue than with conventional bullets.
> 
Another problem with the Gyrojet was accuracy. Since it left the barrel
much more slowly than a traditional round, gyroscopic stabilization 
was at a minimum at the start of the shell's path. A slight wobble
at this point would translate into a large deviation at the target.

Peter




From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Nov 30 11:43:54 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:43:54 -0500 (est)
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: 


Following which the buyer posts all the signed emails between self and
seller detailing the fraudulent transaction.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Following which, Alice pulls out the pre-dated revocation certificate, 
> and generates confusion as to the validity of Bob's key change message.
> 
> Duh, indeed.
> 
> Adam
> 
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 01:34:53PM -0500, Sunder wrote:
> | Simple.  Once the buyer has the keys she issues an email saying "I'm
> | changing my keys, here's the new public key" and signs it with the old key
> | - thus proving that the nym's original message was valid, thus
> | invalidating the old one.  Duh!
> | 
> | 
> | ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
> |  + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
> |   \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
> | <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
> |   /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
> |  + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
> | --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
> | 
> | On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:
> | 
> | > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 12:14:13PM -0800, Wei Dai wrote:
> | > | On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:53:02PM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
> | > | > Even this is not a scalar.  Since reputation cannot be bought
> | > | > and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is
> | > | > false.
> | > | 
> | > | If you own a nym, you can easily sell its reputation. Just give the
> | > | private key to the buyer.
> | > 
> | > How does the buyer ensure that I haven't kept a copy?  If what I'm
> | > selling is a nym, then without the nym, I am anonymous.  Adding layers 
> | > of nymity for reputation with partial disclosure seems a complex and
> | > failure-prone approach. 
> | > 
> | > Adam
> | > 
> | > -- 
> | > "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> | > 					               -Hume
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume




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From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:47:03 PST
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From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Nov 30 11:50:34 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:50:34 -0500
Subject: in praise of gold
Message-ID: <200111301950.OAA04548@mail.lokmail.net>

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From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Fri Nov 30 14:57:53 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:57:53 -0800
Subject: Nyms for sale!  Get your red hot nyms!
In-Reply-To: <20011130135652.D11032@eskimo.com>
References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org>; from adam@homeport.org on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 04:28:58PM -0500
Message-ID: <3C079E71.32504.13E26FF@localhost>


On 30 Nov 2001, at 13:56, Wei Dai wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 04:28:58PM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> > Following which, Alice pulls out the pre-dated revocation certificate, 
> > and generates confusion as to the validity of Bob's key change message.
> 
> I guess we would need a distributed public registry of key
> change/revocation messages that guarantees only one such message will be
> posted per key, and any revocation messages not posted to this registry
> would be ignored.
> 

This assumes that you want it to be possible to buy and sell 
reputation capital, and that people will accept bought reputation
as valid, propositions that I think are contrary to fact.
	That is, if (purely hypothetically) I believed "Wei Dai" was the
most intelligent, informed, and creative poster I had ever seen,
and I learned that "Wei Dai" had sold his name to some unknown
third party,  I would consider any impressions I had about
"Wei Dai" to be instantly invalidated (since there's no particular
reason to believe they'd apply to the new nym owner), and the
name would become worthless (in my eyes) regardless of how 
much the new owner paid for it.
	I'll take that a step further: the possibility that nyms might
me surreptitiously bought and sold is a critical weakness of any 
sort of nym reputation system, and a system designed to
facilitate this kind of fraud is system in which only a fool
would put any confidence in any reputation.


> Again, I don't think reputation capital is the best solution to the
> problem that it tries to solve. I'm just trying to defend it against the
> charge that it's a nonsensical idea. I still propose b-money as a better
> alternative. Maybe Tim has found an even better solution, and if so I
> certainly look forward to seeing it.
> 
> 

I don't think anyone claims that the whole idea is nonsense,
just that it's a mistake to view it as a singel real number.
Maybe a 3x3 matrix would be better?

George




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Fri Nov 30 15:14:04 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:14:04 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011130154754.B15620@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3C07A23C.31150.14CF77B@localhost>


On 30 Nov 2001, at 13:34, Sunder wrote:

> Simple.  Once the buyer has the keys she issues an email saying "I'm
> changing my keys, here's the new public key" and signs it with the old key
> - thus proving that the nym's original message was valid, thus
> invalidating the old one.  Duh!
> 
> 
Any sort of protocol along these lines will only be successful if 
people are willing to accept the buying and selling of keys
along with associated reputations as valid.  I don't
think people will.

A message along the lines of "I've discovered my key has
been compromised, so I'm changing it, but I'm signing it with
the old (admittedly compromised) key" should not be
believed.  The message can as easily come from the compromisor 
as compromisee, more easily in fact, since
a nym thief will doubtless know he's stolen a nym before
the victim realizes it.  The proper response to such a message 
would be to indeed view the old key as compromised, but
to put no confidence in the "new key" unless it can be verified
via an inpendent channel.  For a pure pseudonym (not in
any way attached to any known physical entity) I'm not sure there
is an indendent channel.

George

George




From adam at homeport.org  Fri Nov 30 12:45:03 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:45:03 -0500
Subject: Trying again (Re: failure notice)
In-Reply-To: <3D962832-E5C2-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3D962832-E5C2-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011130154503.A15620@weathership.homeport.org>


On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:44:09AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
| 
| Attempting to get this through. About half of the messages I have tried 

(the quoting may be off.)

| > On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 09:06 AM, Adam Shostack wrote:
| >
| >> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 08:21:32AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
| >> | On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 07:55 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
| >> |
| >> | >       Dubbya should be impeached, and both he and Asscruft arrested
| >> for
| >> | > treason.
| >> |
| >> | Quite interesting the language they keep using: "Terrorists don't 
| >> have
| >> | rights."
| >> |
| >> | The 1200 persons detained without due process, without habeas corpus,
| >> | for close to three months, are presumed to be "terrorists" and thus
| >> are
| >> | denied the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
| >>
| >> No, they're not.  See this article in yesterday's Times:
| >> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/28/national/28LEGA.html?ex=1007614800&en=
| >> ec5ced02619720c8&
| >> ei=5040&partner=MOREOVER
| >>
| >
| > I see nothing in this article to alter the gist of what I said. The
| > article says 1100 were held at one time. 548 still being held. Yeah, the
| > charges are vague "immigration violations," but we know why they were
| > really detained and are still being held. (BTW, lawyers for a bunch of
| > them, those who have managed to get lawyers that is, have said their
| > clients would like to return to their home countries. Should be SOP to
| > let a "immigration violation" detainee solve the problem by leaving,
| > right?)

No, I was really quibbling over the terrorist bit.  Even the
government can no longer make a straight-faced claim they're
terrorists.  Now, they need to explain how they're ignoring the civil
rights of people, who, as you point out, are being held incommunicado, 
and, in my non-lawyerly not-really-all-that-humble-opinion, how their
action differs from kidnapping.

| > An undisclosed number of those detainees are being held incommunicado as
| > "material witnesses." Not as immigration violations, but as "material
| > witnesses." The same vague basis could be used to arrest and detain
| > without charge dozens of folks just like us on our list.
| >
| > Civil liberties types used to gasp at British plans to arrest suspects
| > without charge and hold them for up to 72 hours on the say-so of a
| > burowcrat...look at the holding of 548-1100 people for a period of
| > weeks-months without any charges being filed in open court.
| >
| > "Immigration violations" and "material witness" my ass!

Quite.


| >> What grounds Ashcroft is using to deny them their civil rights is not
| >> clear.
| >>
| >> Who will rid me of this meddlesome Constitution, indeed.
| >>
| >> | The police state measures rushed into law by Congress will be used to
| >> | suppress dissidents long after this war is over.
| >>
| >> Quite sad.  There was an article in IP last night about Canada doing
| >> the same thing; defining protesters as terrorists.  (There's a history
| >> here; the RCMP was quite vicious in its post-arrest treatment of
| >> protesters against some Indonesian dictator a few years ago.)
| >
| > I expect the next Cypherpunk to be arrested will be tried under these
| > new "terrorist" laws.
| >
| > I won't go so far as to predict that a dozen active list members will be
| > rounded up in pre-dawn raids and held incommunicado and without charges
| > being filed promptly, and with normal bail procedures, but it wouldn't
| > surprise me.
| >
| > What it will probably take is for some kind of ricin attack on Federal
| > Persecutor offices. A few dozen dead Feds and I'd expect every group
| > that has ever discussed ricin and sarin to be raided.
| >
| > Terrorists have no rights. First we determine them to be terrorists,
| > then we hold a military tribunal. Amerikan justice is the envy of the
| > world.

Indeed. Amazing how quickly we can lose the value of so many
hard-fought precedents.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From adam at homeport.org  Fri Nov 30 12:47:54 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:47:54 -0500
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011130121413.C11032@eskimo.com>
References: ;
  <20011129161140.A18624@eskimo.com> <3C06921E.23156.2672FDC@localhost>
  <20011130121413.C11032@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <20011130154754.B15620@weathership.homeport.org>


On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 12:14:13PM -0800, Wei Dai wrote:
| On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:53:02PM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
| > Even this is not a scalar.  Since reputation cannot be bought
| > and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is
| > false.
| 
| If you own a nym, you can easily sell its reputation. Just give the
| private key to the buyer.

How does the buyer ensure that I haven't kept a copy?  If what I'm
selling is a nym, then without the nym, I am anonymous.  Adding layers 
of nymity for reputation with partial disclosure seems a complex and
failure-prone approach. 

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From adam at homeport.org  Fri Nov 30 13:28:58 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:28:58 -0500
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011130154754.B15620@weathership.homeport.org>
  
Message-ID: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org>


Following which, Alice pulls out the pre-dated revocation certificate, 
and generates confusion as to the validity of Bob's key change message.

Duh, indeed.

Adam

On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 01:34:53PM -0500, Sunder wrote:
| Simple.  Once the buyer has the keys she issues an email saying "I'm
| changing my keys, here's the new public key" and signs it with the old key
| - thus proving that the nym's original message was valid, thus
| invalidating the old one.  Duh!
| 
| 
| ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
|  + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
|   \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
| <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
|   /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
|  + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
| --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
| 
| On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:
| 
| > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 12:14:13PM -0800, Wei Dai wrote:
| > | On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:53:02PM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
| > | > Even this is not a scalar.  Since reputation cannot be bought
| > | > and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is
| > | > false.
| > | 
| > | If you own a nym, you can easily sell its reputation. Just give the
| > | private key to the buyer.
| > 
| > How does the buyer ensure that I haven't kept a copy?  If what I'm
| > selling is a nym, then without the nym, I am anonymous.  Adding layers 
| > of nymity for reputation with partial disclosure seems a complex and
| > failure-prone approach. 
| > 
| > Adam
| > 
| > -- 
| > "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
| > 					               -Hume

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Nov 30 14:00:33 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:00:33 -0500 (est)
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and
  implementation
Message-ID: 


There are plenty of systems of reputation capital already in existance out
there. (RepCap to shorten it.)  In this post, I will use several fictional
examples, though the names may or may not resemble actual Nyms, within the
context of this post, they are fictional and any such resemblance is
purely coincidental (or halucinational in your case), and "you" refers to
another Nym, not necessarily the reader, as "I" does not refer to the
author, but yet another Nym.  Ditto for actual named Nym's.


In the finance world funds always have disclaimers stating that past
performance is not a predictor of future growth, but in practice past
performance is always used or at least taken into consideration.

Reputations are built based on interactions of individuals with others who
communicate references about their experiences.

For the longest time your credit record has sufficed.  Previous to that,
your riches or your actions, (or breeding - a poor solution) or the esteem
that others have for you that the viewer is acquainted with show (or at
least hint) your reputation to those who are unfamiliar with you.

New examples include things such as slashdot's karma points for insightful
postings, and ebay's feedback profiles that allow a buyer to rate a seller
numerically once per transaction with positive, neutral, or negative, and
a comment.  The seller can also rate the buyer and warn other sellers that
this guy pays on time or was a hassle, or a dead beat.

Anyone can view a nym's repcap and see all the comments along with the
items that were sold, etc.

Sellers can prevent those with negative or low rep-caps from posting bids,
or can state that those with less than a certain amount must pay by
certified check or credit card since they aren't trusted - or that their
personal checks must first clear, etc.

I actually like this model, but it can be expanded.  Reputation capital
can however be abused.

In a Cypherpunk reputation capital environment, Mallet can set up two nyms
and use them to defraud others.  Here I will present a way around this.
Mallet creates Alice and Bob, and has them perform some transaction over
and over again, on each transaction posting postive repcap to each other.

As Adam Shostack and Wei Dai's comments have pointed out, there are
possible abuses to such a system:

For the ebay model: Alice can sell Bob a used piece of toilet paper for
$0.01, and on completion both Alice and Bob post positive repcap's for
each other.  Of course both Alice and Bob are Mallet's Nym's, so Mallet
runs this process repeatedly until both Alice and Bob have high
repcap's.  This attack can be extended by Mallet over several hundreds of
Nym's to make this less obvious, and can be randomized somewhat, etc...

If a high rep-cap Nym is sold, the old owner can reursup the Nym if the
buyer doesn't revoke the old public key and issue a new one.  The old
owner can even have a predated revocation certificate causing
confusion.  But in this case, fraud has been commited, so the buyer must
have some recourse.

Perhaps the buyer can then disclose their identity (or rather their
original nym) and the signed messages between themselves and the
fraud.  Money may be perhaps reclaimed, or not depending on how the Nym
was sold.

RepCap's should certainly not just have a single dimension stating
positive or negative, but rather a set of vectors.  Certainly repcap
metadata about a sale is different than that of an essay posting, or that
of a social interaction.  (Choate might for example have the best bbq's in
the entire country and he might have huge successful parties, but perhaps
his posts leave something to desire.)

Perhaps XyzzY is a genius when it comes to her knowledge of perl scripts,
but she's notoriously in debt, so I might not want to accept business from
her, though when I read the perl mailing lists, I would happily see her
messages.



In a posting model such as Cypherpunks I believe I have an idea for a
decent system.  I'm not suggesting we implement this as there would be too
much resistance to a fully working restrictive repcap based mailing list
here, but, rather this can serve as a theoretical example.

We swipe a bit of the Slashdot system, a bit of the ebay system, and add
digital signatures.  Let's start with a post.

Say Tim posts a very brillian post about something.  The readers of the
post can if they chose to sign a hash of that message along with their
vote for postive, neutral, or negative and a small comment (not a reply to
the message, but a comment about the character of the post.)

This message does not make its way onto the list as a message, but rather
as metadata.  That is your special mail client won't display them to you,
so you won't see a flood of metadata emails, but your client will process
them after authenticating their signatures.  RepCap archive servers will
collect and cache these for anyone to see.  Individual clients can do the
same.  (You don't want a central server or a set of central servers as
these can be destroyed, etc. and then the system fails.)

Suppose that in my client, I hold Declan and Sandy in high reputation.  
That is my cache of their repcap is high and positive in relation to
others.  Now suppose that Tim posts a message and suppose they both vote
that Tim's post was brilliant - thus give it a positive vote.  Instead of
adding just "2" points to my cache of Tim's rep, since I trust Sandy and
Declan as non-nutcases, their votes are weighed against their own repcap's
in my cache.

Say Tim has a repcap of 600, say Declan has 500, and Sandy has 400.  Then
I add +1 * 500/X from Declan's repcap and +1 *400/X to Tim's repcap, so
now my cache of Tim's repcap might jump to 620.

Now this is not Tim's true reputation capital which came from individual
votes, and can be downloaded from any archive by any new user at any time,
it's rather my view of it. 

For example, say Jim doesn't like Tim, Jim can change the weight of Tim's
repcap, or even the actual repcap in his own cache to something low, and
then Declan and Sandy's vote won't make any difference.

Further, if I or anyone else choses to, we can ignore posts by those with
repcap under a certain threshhold.  Doing so would also stop spammers from
getting their message displayed (but not necessarily the bandwidth
hogging.)

Any time I chose to, I can change my own cache of someone's repcap, thus
overriding public opinion.  Perhaps this personal setting for each Nym I
see would be locked either for a specific duration (so further votes can
change it later on -- see below example of Aimee and Faustine), or
forever.  These should only override the tallied up ones from the servers,
not replace them.  

Perhaps I can also share my views of a certain Nym, stating that "Vulis is
a nutcase" or "Eric Hugh's is cool" and some sets of values, if I chose
to.  These can be the same as the weights I privately use to filter out
things, or they can be a different set - should I chose to be two faced.

But what about a new user who doesn't know Tim from Jim?  Simple.  They
can talk to the archive servers and get either a count of positives and
negatives or download the last six months worth of votes and optionally
comments, or even download all that the archives have for a particular
nym, including their public key, and any signatures on that key (pgp web
of trust, etc.)

Alternatively (or additionaly) the new user might want a query of what
Declan and Sandy think of this guy and perhaps average them to build the
cache.

How does a new Nym build repcap?  Lurkers who only read will be invisible,
so they won't have a reputation.  As soon as they post others can vote one
way or another, and based on the weight of the repcap of the voter, a
quick rep cap can be built.  As each person can decide to change their own
weights for that new Nym, this can be settled quickly.

For example both Faustine and Aimee had initially interesting posts, but
over time cracks appeared, lowering their repcap, etc...  Their repcaps
would have initially jumped up and then dropped.

Of course those that choose to opt out, should be able to do so by simply
not opting in the first place, though they might find it hard to do
business with those that do...

Note that everyone should be able to read all postings, and repcap
metamessages at any time without participating.


Flaws of course are that trust is not transitive (however, a system of
personal weights can ameliorate this), and that past behavior is not a
guarantee of future behavior (Nym's can go insane, or be cured of
insanity, can relapse, can sell/buy Nyms.)

Any other flaws?



Again, this is a ficticious example of a reasonable system.  It will
likely never work here on this mailing list, though another mailing list
like system can be created, though it would require both clients and
reputation servers.  The examples of people I used are entirely ficticious
any resemblance to real humans is coincidental, parental discretion
advised.  This message will burp itself in ten seconds, though you will
have to change its diapers all by yourself.




----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Nov 30 14:05:13 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:05:13 -0500 (est)
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Not the messages signed by the purchaser of the Nym, as those would not be
signed with the Nym's signature.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > Following which the buyer posts all the signed emails between self and
> > seller detailing the fraudulent transaction.
> 
> Worthless, as all of those messages could have been forged. Or did you
> mean to say that they had been dated by a third party timestamping
> service?
> 
> The fact is, digital signatures are irrelevant if private keys can be
> compromised.
> 
> 
> -MW-




From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Nov 30 14:07:12 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:07:12 -0500 (est)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


But by preventing me from trespassing you're restricting my freedom of
speech!  According to you, that's illegal.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> No, that's trespass.
> 
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > So by your terms, I should have the right to enter your house at 3:00am
> > when you're asleep and make long loud ranting speeches using a bullhorn
> > shoved in your ear?
> > 
> > Ok, I'll be over tomorrow night, then.
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Nov 29 22:23:01 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:23:01 +1100
Subject: fuel injected firearm
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130172008.00a69040@pop.useoz.com>


RE: Metalstorm.As they can be made e-specific to one owner,I think we 
should all be able to have a liscenced version along with stingers in case 
rouge airliners get loose in our skies.

An acquaintance has come up with what he thinks is a novel and practical 
design for a liquid propellent rocket engine. Although his initial tests 
were not conclusive he thinks he can build an under 50 lb LOX-Propane 
rocket which can put 20 lbs or more into LEO. See 
http://www.halfwaytoanywhere.com/rocket/ Interestingly, he found that 
ordinary plastic quart size Coke bottles (esp. the rounded bottom types 
often capped with a black base) were very flexible at LOX temperatures and 
were able to withstand enough pressure to make them practical as fuel and 
oxidizer tanks. The ISP is greater than 300 and Mass Ratio even more 
impressive. If he can get some funding an amateur single-stage to orbit is 
a very real possibility. It could also have a variety of commercial and 
military uses ;-)




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Nov 29 22:42:23 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:42:23 +1100
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130173413.00a6b0f0@pop.useoz.com>


"...libertarian vs. socialist .."From Tims epistle to the faithful.9-11 
certainly shook a few authoritarians out of the woodpile in both the 
libertarian and the socialist scenes.Nasty stuff.
What happened to libertarian socialist? An R.Crumb cartoon for the 
noughties,"Im a libertarian socialist!"

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cypher.html

Assassination Politics
Convicted tax evader Jim Bell proposes a system of anonymous ecash awards 
for the murder of "aggressors", such as IRS agents. See also Crypto-Convict 
Won't Recant. What he misses is that his system, if tolerated, would merely 
force government to operate secretly rather than openly.
They can do that?




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Nov 30 15:58:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:58:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



No, that's trespass.

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote:

> So by your terms, I should have the right to enter your house at 3:00am
> when you're asleep and make long loud ranting speeches using a bullhorn
> shoved in your ear?
> 
> Ok, I'll be over tomorrow night, then.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Nov 30 15:59:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:59:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011130080433.007d24a0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:

> Neither is Tim.

Couldn't tell it from the press releases.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Nov 30 16:01:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:01:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war' -November  29, 2001
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> While I agree with you in principal, it would not be an easy thing to do
> under the [constituional] circumstances.  The problem is that the law is well
> settled that a president may invoke these powers during times of _declared_
> war.  Although congress declined a formal declaration, they did provide a
> defacto one with their support and authorization of military force ditty.  It

That in itself isn't constitutional. Congress MUST!!! vote for, otherwise
it is an automatic nay.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 30 18:06:54 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:06:54 -0800
Subject: Cattle Herding... (was Re: in praise of gold)
In-Reply-To: <3C027A03.19969.C27924@localhost>; from
  georgemw@speakeasy.net on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 05:21:07PM -0800
References: 
   <3C027A03.19969.C27924@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011130180653.G25834@navel.introspect>


on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 05:21:07PM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net
(georgemw at speakeasy.net) wrote:
> On 23 Nov 2001, at 19:13, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>
> > Pecunia, the latin word for money, comes from the Etruscian pecu, meaning,
cow.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > RAH
> >
>
> And of course the German word for money is Gelt, which means
> Gold.
>
> Cows might have served well as currency for primitives like the
> Etruscans, but can you imagine using them today?  I took
> a bus this morning, the fair was 1.10 and I only had paper money
> so they ripped me off 90 cents.  But if I was an Etruscan, they
> would've taken my whole cow!

No, actually, you probably came out about $1.60 ahead.

"Farebox recovery" -- the amount of a transit system's expenses that are
covered by direct rider payments -- tends about 30% - 40% of expenses.
This varies widely, a sparsely-attended rural service might rate 10%
returns, typical suburban service 15-20%, a well-served metro transit
system might come as high as 50-55%.

You're also neglecting the possibility that the fare might not have been
a whole cow, but just cost you an arm and a leg.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 30 18:07:32 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:07:32 -0800
Subject: Cattle Herding... (was Re: in praise of gold)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011127065204.007c89a0@pop.sprynet.com>; from
  honig@sprynet.com on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 06:52:04AM -0800
References: 
  
  <3C027A03.19969.C27924@localhost>
  <3.0.6.32.20011127065204.007c89a0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011130180732.H25834@navel.introspect>


on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 06:52:04AM -0800, David Honig (honig at sprynet.com)
wrote:
> At 05:21 PM 11/26/01 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
> >
> >Cows might have served well as currency for primitives like the
> >Etruscans, but can you imagine using them today?  I took
> >a bus this morning, the fair was 1.10 and I only had paper money
> >so they ripped me off 90 cents.  But if I was an Etruscan, they
> >would've taken my whole cow!
>
> You would have gotten a goat and two chickens in change.

No.  Etruscan T-Bills.  Fertilized eggs.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Nov 30 16:08:18 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:08:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Neither is John Gilmore.
> 
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > But Joe Random isn't a Cypherpunks Leader...

And yet you were the one trying to take the old soda homepage as current
gospel for the list...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Fri Nov 30 16:11:23 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:11:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Celebrate Bill of Rights Day in Denver (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:43:43 -0700
From: John Jackson 
To: measl at mfn.org, bensons at savvis.net, dave.salaman at savvis.net,
     greg.graff at savvis.net
Subject: Celebrate Bill of Rights Day in Denver

This ought to be fun:

http://www.stanley2002.org/borday.htm

  Join Rick on Bill of Rights Day and defend your right to keep and bear arms.
  Civil disobedience is the only way to secure our Constitutional rights
  against an unconstitutional government.
 
  At high noon on December 15, 2001, at the state Capitol in Denver, Rick will
  be wearing a loaded pistol in a holster in plain sight for all to see -- per
  his Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.

  Rick Stanley, Libertarian candidate for U.S. Senate, will be arrested by the
  Denver police for insisting that his Second Amendment right to keep and bear
  arms cannot be infringed.
 
[...]




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Nov 30 16:11:29 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:11:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: theft (fwd)
Message-ID: 


???

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:21:49 -0800
From: Milissa Montalbano 
To: owner-cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: theft

I'm in search for one of your representatives, or National Security.  I have been able to read Thommy Thompson III's mind.  I showed up at Jaguar Glass, in Eugene, Oregon and let him know about the money that he stole from government agencies, including the FBI, which ironically protects him.  He thought I was undercover or believed I was a human computer; which he still may believe. He witnesses that his computers talk to me, as if I were one of them.  I can tell what program his computers are on and what they are interlocking with most of the time.  He gave me a 400 million dollar check that day, as I sat there reading his mind explaining to him what I knew.  At that point he had 8-10 billion dollars of government money/funding hidden away.  But after the planes went down he stole over a 100 billion. He used Mike's pin#  and password to get into National Security.  He helped himself into instruments and institutions, and began using them incorrectly and illegally. I am offering National Security or any Representative a lot of my money to help me put this man away.  It seems he is being protected by the forces I need.  He is station #3 of the HAARP Project and I'm in search for anyone ready to earn a lot of money; for actually representing the United States of America the Right Way.
He's been looking into the minds of his people and brainwashing them, so he will not be seen.  I can read his mind faster than any instrument, and ironically he seems he has to answer my questions like I was a machine. When I listen, I can hear him telling people he's playing God and to digest this information; or to Change their mind. Another one he uses, line one--, line two--, line three--, Lock and Load, which also seems to convince people that he is innocent.  He changes the information nightly so he won't be seen, for he is a computer programmer as you will soon see.  I've even tried try to get the HAARP to tune into me, so they could see me which would see him. 
This is just the beginning of what I know.  Eugene, Oregon's FBI seem to be full of idiots or his "Change Your mind Method" is working pretty damn good.  Right now I get denied as they listen to him and not me. But COME ON PEOPLE, He wrote me a $400 Million dollar check. (SO, WAKE UP!  FBI, because you are obviously, virtually blind),. This Nation seems to be lacking people like me.  That can discover people like Thommy Thompson III and his black market industry. 


Thank you,
Milissa Montalbano ( 28 years Old )
2145 Klamath St.
Roseburg, Oregon 97470
Montalbano_Milissa at Hotmail.com
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Nov 30 16:14:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:14:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cybersecurity chief says he doesn't want to change crypto rules -- yet (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:47:23 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" 
To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com,
    Digital Bearer Settlement List , dcsb at ai.mit.edu
Subject: Cybersecurity chief says he doesn't want to change crypto rules -- yet

http://www.govexec.com/news/index.cfm?mode=report&articleid=21712&printerfriendlyVers=1&


  Daily Briefing  

November 26, 2001

Cybersecurity chief pushes early-warning system

By Bara Vaida, National Journal's Technology Daily

The top priorities for the White House Office of Cyberspace Security
include the creation of both an early-warning network for cyberattacks and
an analysis center that would help the government target the most
vulnerable points in the nation's critical infrastructure, the office's
chief said last week in an interview with National Journal's Technology
Daily.

Richard Clarke, special adviser on cyberspace security to President Bush,
said the early-warning network, called the Cyber Warning and Information
Network (CWIN), would at first be a voice system that would link major
computer-network operation centers and the information-sharing and
assurance centers (ISACs) that represent critical infrastructure sectors,
such as financial services, telecommunications and transportation.

CWIN would be modeled after the existing National Operations and
Intelligence Watch Offices Network, which connects senior officials at the
Pentagon, the National Security Agency, the White House, the State
Department and the CIA by phone within 15 seconds.

"Let's say someone [in the private sector] sees 'Nimda' [a computer virus]
spiking," Clarke said in describing how CWIN would work. "They can pick up
the phone and get most of the people that need to know right away.

"This is a case where the government doesn't know best or first," he added.
"So you need a public-private partnership to reach out to these nodes in
the private sector ...that see viruses first, that see the tsunamis of
denial-of-service attacks first."

Clarke also is working on building the National Infrastructure Simulation
and Analysis Center authorized under the section 1016 of the anti-terrorism
law that Bush signed into law last month. The center was authorized to
receive $20 million through the Defense Department and would create a
simulated model of the Internet, the nation's telecom system and its
physical infrastructure. The goal is to enhance understanding of how the
systems interact and to mitigate vulnerabilities.

"There really is no place today where there is a live model of the
Internet, and we want to model the interactions and interdependencies
between the Internet, the telephone networks, the electric power grid,"
Clarke said. "The way I describe it is [that] we need an 'acupuncture map'
of the U.S. You know, where are the pressure points?"

Developing a model also may help Clarke to articulate his message that
private-sector companies need to analyze their computer-security
vulnerabilities.

"The lesson I'm trying to get out to people ... is that we need to
understand what the worst-case scenario is and then do prudent risk
management so that you mitigate those possibilities," he said.

In addition, Clarke said Bush supports legislation by Sen. Robert Bennett,
R-Utah, that would exempt businesses from the Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) when they share computer-security information with the government.
Clarke said he has talked to lawmakers on the issue.

On encryption, Clarke said he has no plans to change current U.S. policy,
though some people on the Hill wanted to reopen the issue after the Sept.
11 terrorist attacks.




Brought to you by GovExec.com
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'



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From replytoit2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 30 10:22:09 2001
From: replytoit2000 at yahoo.com (Roger)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:22:09 -00
Subject: AMAZING Business!!Success GUARANTEED!!
Message-ID: <143841-220011153018229850@yahoo.com>


This ad is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 1618, Title 3, section
301. http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/
Here is a more detailed version of the legal notice above:
This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per
Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, 
http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/
Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at
no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word
"remove" in the subject line.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------

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you deserve. REMEMBER we GUARANTEE your success.

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          http://026317a.dialer-select.com




From Karina at Wantstofuck.com  Fri Nov 30 17:24:33 2001
From: Karina at Wantstofuck.com (Karina at Wantstofuck.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:24:33 -0700 (MST)
Subject: why didnt you come watch me on my webcam? you said you would! w
Message-ID: <200112010124.SAA14622@insta-chain.com>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
 (Karina at Wantstofuck.com) on Friday, November 30, 2001 at 18:24:33
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

: hey babe, it's karina remember me? if you don't im 5'8" with brown hair and blue eyes with an ass you can bounce a quarter off of :) Im 21 years old and im in my final year of college at OSU in OREGON! i just got my first webcam and i love meeting new people on it and just showing my body off. i want you to come watch me do a striptease! my website is located at: http://sepimpin.brinkster.net/ if that doesnt work try http://karina.tk.ru/ ~ LOVE ALWAYS! -Karina XOXOXO<33

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Nov 30 16:25:04 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:25:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war'
 -November  29, 2001
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> > While I agree with you in principal, it would not be an easy thing to do
> > under the [constituional] circumstances.  The problem is that the law is well
> > settled that a president may invoke these powers during times of _declared_
> > war.  Although congress declined a formal declaration, they did provide a
> > defacto one with their support and authorization of military force ditty.  It
> 
> That in itself isn't constitutional. Congress MUST!!! vote for, otherwise
> it is an automatic nay.

You are arguing mere _facts_, I am arguing the _reality_ :-)

The _fact_ that something [many things right now] are unconstitutional is
completely irrelevant if nobody is willing to enforce the constitution which
is being violated.  In short, if nobody _does anything about it_,
constitutionality is irrelevant.

Let's face it, the majority of the people I know, both IRL and here, bitch
and moan about the kind of egregious behaviour Shrub and his Band Of
Traveling Fascists are so good at, but how many of us have (to put it into
TimSpeak) done anything about those who "need killing"?  Anyone who has not
taken positive action, and this includes both me and you Jim, does not
actually deserve the protections afforded by that scrap of parchment you have
managed to memorize.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Fri Nov 30 16:27:34 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:27:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: theft (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Oh oh, mattd is having another one of those "moments" :-)

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:21:49 -0800
> From: Milissa Montalbano 
> To: owner-cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: theft
> 
> I'm in search for one of your representatives, or National Security.  I
> have been able to read Thommy Thompson III's mind.  I showed up at Jaguar
> Glass, in Eugene, Oregon and let him know about the money that he stole
> from government agencies, including the FBI, which ironically protects
> him.  He thought I was undercover or believed I was a human computer;
> which he still may believe. He witnesses that his computers talk to me,
> as if I were one of them.  I can tell what program his computers are on
> and what they are interlocking with most of the time.  He gave me a 400
> million dollar check that day, as I sat there reading his mind explaining
> to him what I knew.  At that point he had 8-10 billion dollars of
> government money/funding hidden away.  But after the planes went down he
> stole over a 100 billion. He used Mike's pin# and password to get into
> National Security.  He helped himself into instruments and institutions,
> and began using them incorrectly and illegally. I am offering National
> Security or any Representative a lot of my money to help me put this man
> away.  It seems he is being protected by the forces I need.  He is
> station #3 of the HAARP Project and I'm in search for anyone ready to
> earn a lot of money; for actually representing the United States of
> America the Right Way. He's been looking into the minds of his people and
> brainwashing them, so he will not be seen.  I can read his mind faster
> than any instrument, and ironically he seems he has to answer my
> questions like I was a machine. When I listen, I can hear him telling
> people he's playing God and to digest this information; or to Change
> their mind. Another one he uses, line one--, line two--, line three--,
> Lock and Load, which also seems to convince people that he is innocent.  
> He changes the information nightly so he won't be seen, for he is a
> computer programmer as you will soon see.  I've even tried try to get the
> HAARP to tune into me, so they could see me which would see him.  This is
> just the beginning of what I know.  Eugene, Oregon's FBI seem to be full
> of idiots or his "Change Your mind Method" is working pretty damn good.  
> Right now I get denied as they listen to him and not me. But COME ON
> PEOPLE, He wrote me a $400 Million dollar check. (SO, WAKE UP!  FBI,
> because you are obviously, virtually blind),. This Nation seems to be
> lacking people like me.  That can discover people like Thommy Thompson
> III and his black market industry.
> 
> 
> Thank you,
> Milissa Montalbano ( 28 years Old )
> 2145 Klamath St.
> Roseburg, Oregon 97470
> Montalbano_Milissa at Hotmail.com
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From SpeedBrowse35784 at guaranteed-speed.com  Fri Nov 30 16:45:22 2001
From: SpeedBrowse35784 at guaranteed-speed.com (SpeedBrowse35784 at guaranteed-speed.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:45:22 -0600
Subject: Speed Up Your Internet Connection In Just 5 Minutes 100% Guaranteed!                                                                             rirozuse 
Message-ID: <200112010045.fB10jLZ13423@ak47.algebra.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 339 bytes
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URL: 

From gbroiles at parrhesia.com  Fri Nov 30 19:04:09 2001
From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:04:09 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011130151646.03b50e60@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 02:26 PM 11/30/2001 -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> > Following which the buyer posts all the signed emails between self and
> > seller detailing the fraudulent transaction.
>
>Worthless, as all of those messages could have been forged. Or did you
>mean to say that they had been dated by a third party timestamping
>service?
>
>The fact is, digital signatures are irrelevant if private keys can be
>compromised.

I strongly suggest that you look beyond simple all-or-nothing thinking 
about digital signatures; they are neither the "undeniable irrevocable 
absolutely certain proof of enforceability" that their proponents want to 
believe, nor are they "irrelevant" or worthless because of the mere 
possibility of key compromise.

Other kinds of proof and evidence with respect to transactions and 
agreements admit many more levels of nuance, meaning, and reliability and 
there's no reason to expect that digital signatures will prove to be any 
different .. or should be any different.


--
Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961
Eliminate due process, civil rights? It's the Constitution, stupid!




From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Nov 30 19:36:02 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:36:02 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Reminder: Special Event: Why Freedom Matters More than
  Ever
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011130193526.04226c88@pop3.lvcm.com>


>X-Sender: swan001.mailadmin at pop.independent.org
>Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:24:55 -0800
>To: schear at lvcm.com (Mr. Steve Schear)
>From: "David J. Theroux" 
>Subject: Reminder: Special Event: Why Freedom Matters More than Ever
>
>Dear Steve,
>
>        To follow up on my recent note, I am happy to report that C-SPAN 
> will be taping our very timely, upcoming Independent Policy Forum with 
> Professor David Henderson, entitled "Why Freedom Matters More than Ever."
>
>        As a result, if you have not done so already, we encourage you to 
> make your reservation as soon as possible in order to guarantee 
> seating.  Please see the below announcement for details and contact our 
> registrar, Ms. Nichelle Beardsley, at 510-632-1366 or 
> nbeardsley at independent.org to reserve your seat.
>
>        We hope to see you Tuesday evening, December 4th.
>
>        Best regards,
>
>        David J. Theroux
>        Founder and President
>        The Independent Institute
>        100 Swan Way
>        Oakland, CA 94621-1428
>        510-632-1366 Phone
>        510-568-6040 Fax
>        DTheroux at independent.org
>        http://www.independent.org
>
>***********
>
>"Why Freedom Matters More Than Ever" -- An Independent Policy Forum, 
>December 4, 2001
>http://www.independent.org/tii/forums/011204ipf.html
>
>Is a republic justified during national emergencies in expanding 
>government powers that result in permanent losses of civil and economic 
>liberties? Is the U.S. government currently passing laws that we will live 
>to regret? What are the best strategies for pursuing both security and freedom?
>
>To overcome the new threat of terrorism and a recession, must freedom be 
>restricted? Americans hold that freedom makes economic progress and the 
>good society possible -- yet many support curtailing freedom during 
>national emergencies. Economist DAVID HENDERSON, however, holds that 
>freedom is as important during wartime and recession as it is during 
>peacetime and prosperity.
>
>Based on his insightful new book, THE JOY OF FREEDOM: An Economist's 
>Odyssey, Professor Henderson will examine the imperative of individual 
>liberty to the workings and institutions of a free and just society and to 
>such issues as safety, employment, economic welfare, education, health 
>care, the environment, community, culture, and much more. In so doing, he 
>will examine how freedom is crucial for ensuring lasting peace, security 
>and harmony.
>
>SPEAKER*:
>
>-- DAVID R. HENDERSON (Professor of Economics, Naval Postgraduate School; 
>Research Fellow, Hoover Institution) is author of THE JOY OF FREEDOM: An 
>Economist's Odyssey
>
>WHEN:
>        Tuesday, December 4, 2001
>        Reception and book signing: 6:30 p.m.
>        Program: 7:00 - 8:30 p.m.
>
>WHERE:
>        The Independent Institute Conference Center
>        100 Swan Way
>        Oakland, CA 94621-1428
>        For a map and directions, see
>        http://www.independent.org/tii/tii_info/about.html#map
>
>TICKETS: $30.00 per person: includes one copy of THE JOY OF FREEDOM: An 
>Economist's Odyssey. Admission without a book is $12 per person ($8 for 
>Independent Institute Associate Members)
>
>        Because seating is limited, please make your reservations as soon 
> as possible.  To purchase tickets, please contact the Institute's Events 
> Coordinator, Ms. Nichelle Beardsley, at 510-632-1366 or via e-mail at 
> nbeardsley at independent.org.
>
>
>Praise for David R. Henderson's THE JOY OF FREEDOM: An Economist's Odyssey:
>
>"THE JOY OF FREEDOM is passionate and eloquent, yet at the same time, 
>thoughtful, informed, and profound. A splendid statement of the moral case 
>for a free society, at the same time it is an informed and comprehensive 
>survey of its practical virtues and of the harm done by widespread 
>government intervention."
>   -- MILTON FRIEDMAN, Nobel Laureate in Economic Science
>
>" THE JOY OF FREEDOM is an engaging tale of Henderson's odyssey to the 
>wonders of freedom."
>   -- JOHN STOSSEL, correspondent, ABC News
>
>"THE JOY OF FREEDOM is a dazzling intellectual memoir, a high-level lesson 
>in market economics, a terrific read."
>   -- DANIEL SELIGMAN, columnist, FORBES Magazine
>
>" THE JOY OF FREEDOM is a superb lesson from one of the masterly economics 
>teachers."
>   -- AMITY SHLAES, columnist, FINANCIAL TIMES
>
>For more about this event, see
>http://www.independent.org/tii/forums/011204ipf.html.
>
>*DAVID R. HENDERSON is Professor of Economics at the Naval Postgraduate 
>School and Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution. Professor Henderson 
>received his Ph.D. in economics from UCLA; he has taught economics at 
>Santa Clara University, St. Louis University, and the University of 
>Rochester; and he has served as Senior Economist with the President's 
>Council of Economic Advisors. Editor of the book, FORTUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF 
>ECONOMICS, he is the recipient of the Rear Admiral John Jay Schieffelin 
>Award and the Mencken Award. His scholarly studies have appeared in the 
>Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, Journal of Monetary Economics, 
>Contemporary Policy Issues, Energy Journal, and other journals, and his 
>popular articles have been published in the New York Times, Barron's, 
>Fortune, Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, and elsewhere. Professor 
>Henderson has also testified before the House Ways and Means Committee, 
>Senate Arms Services Committee, and the Senate Labor and Human Resources 
>Committee, and he has appeared on CNN, "The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer," and 
>other national news and public affairs programs.




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Fri Nov 30 16:43:27 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:43:27 -0500
Subject: I hate, I think.....
Message-ID: <200112010040.fB10evm17148@slack.lne.com>


Apparently, the EU will be formally making hatethink a crime, 
although I suspect that this proposal won't in fact get unanimous 
approval. 

Notice how the Nazis (oh, excuse me, the Germans) are providing 
the "legislative basis" for the draft, meaning its modeled after 
existing German hatethink law.

After two World Wars and 56 years, they still don't "get it". And 
obviously neither do some of the rest of the Europeans. (Not that 
Herr Doktor Grupenfuhrer Ashcroft "gets it" either.)

Full text below, this is the URL:

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
xml=/news/2001/11/29/wrace29.xml&sSheet=/portal/2001/11/29/por_right.h
tml



EU considers plans to outlaw racism 
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels
(Filed: 29/11/2001) 


RACISM and xenophobia would become serious crimes in Britain for the 
first time, carrying a prison sentence of two years or more, under 
new proposals put forward by Brussels yesterday.

Holocaust denial or "trivialisation" of Nazi atrocities would be 
banned, along with and participation in any group that promotes race 
hate. 

The plans, drafted by the European Commission, define racism and 
xenophobia as aversion to individuals based on "race, colour, 
descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin". 

Ordinary crimes would carry heavier penalities if they are motivated 
in any way by racism or xenophobia, or if the culprit is carrying 
out "professional activity", such as a police officer. Some of the 
crimes listed are, broadly speaking, offences under British law 
already, such as public incitement to violence. 

But the list also a covers a wide range of activities that sometimes 
fall into the sphere of protected political speech, such as "public 
insults" of minority groups, "public condoning of war crimes", 
and "public dissemination of tracts, pictures, or other material 
containing expressions of racism of xenophobia" - including material 
posted on far-Right internet websites.

It was not clear yesterday how the law would affect radical Islamic 
groups that openly promote anti-Semitic and anti-Christian views. 

Nor was it clear how it would apply to political parties opposed to 
mass immigration, such as Austria's Freedom Party, Belgium's Vlaams 
Blok, and the Danish People's Party, all of which have become serious 
political forces.

The law could potentially cover many stand-up comedians, and even 
Anne Robinson, who, during an appearance on BBC television this year, 
described the Welsh as "irritating".

The proposals, which will require the unanimous backing of all 15 
states, are aimed at ending the patchwork of different laws across 
the European Union and establishing a common definition that can be 
used by all judges. The commission appears to have adopted the most 
restrictive code - Germany's - as the basis for the rest of the EU.

Leonello Gabrici, the Commission's judicial spokesman, denied that 
there was any intention of curbing political expression. "This 
totally respects free speech. It will be up to judges to decide where 
the balance lies" he said.

The United Kingdom Independence Party said yesterday that it could be 
targeted by the new rules, noting that the Oxford English Dictionary 
definition of xenophobia is "a morbid fear of foreigners or foreign 
countries".

Nigel Farage MEP, the party's chairman, said: "I'm morbidly 
xenophobic about this new country called the European Union, so if 
that is covered by this law then I'm most certainly xenophobic and I 
could be extradited anywhere. So I'm going to make sure my overnight 
bag is packed and ready."


_______________________________________________________________________________
Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address?
Visit http://www.FastCircle.com




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Fri Nov 30 16:43:32 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:43:32 -0500
Subject: I hate, I think.....
Message-ID: <200112010040.fB10evm17147@slack.lne.com>


Apparently, the EU will be formally making hatethink a crime, 
although I suspect that this proposal won't in fact get unanimous 
approval. 

Notice how the Nazis (oh, excuse me, the Germans) are providing 
the "legislative basis" for the draft, meaning its modeled after 
existing German hatethink law.

After two World Wars and 56 years, they still don't "get it". And 
obviously neither do some of the rest of the Europeans. (Not that 
Herr Doktor Grupenfuhrer Ashcroft "gets it" either.)

Full text below, this is the URL:

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
xml=/news/2001/11/29/wrace29.xml&sSheet=/portal/2001/11/29/por_right.h
tml



EU considers plans to outlaw racism 
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels
(Filed: 29/11/2001) 


RACISM and xenophobia would become serious crimes in Britain for the 
first time, carrying a prison sentence of two years or more, under 
new proposals put forward by Brussels yesterday.

Holocaust denial or "trivialisation" of Nazi atrocities would be 
banned, along with and participation in any group that promotes race 
hate. 

The plans, drafted by the European Commission, define racism and 
xenophobia as aversion to individuals based on "race, colour, 
descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin". 

Ordinary crimes would carry heavier penalities if they are motivated 
in any way by racism or xenophobia, or if the culprit is carrying 
out "professional activity", such as a police officer. Some of the 
crimes listed are, broadly speaking, offences under British law 
already, such as public incitement to violence. 

But the list also a covers a wide range of activities that sometimes 
fall into the sphere of protected political speech, such as "public 
insults" of minority groups, "public condoning of war crimes", 
and "public dissemination of tracts, pictures, or other material 
containing expressions of racism of xenophobia" - including material 
posted on far-Right internet websites.

It was not clear yesterday how the law would affect radical Islamic 
groups that openly promote anti-Semitic and anti-Christian views. 

Nor was it clear how it would apply to political parties opposed to 
mass immigration, such as Austria's Freedom Party, Belgium's Vlaams 
Blok, and the Danish People's Party, all of which have become serious 
political forces.

The law could potentially cover many stand-up comedians, and even 
Anne Robinson, who, during an appearance on BBC television this year, 
described the Welsh as "irritating".

The proposals, which will require the unanimous backing of all 15 
states, are aimed at ending the patchwork of different laws across 
the European Union and establishing a common definition that can be 
used by all judges. The commission appears to have adopted the most 
restrictive code - Germany's - as the basis for the rest of the EU.

Leonello Gabrici, the Commission's judicial spokesman, denied that 
there was any intention of curbing political expression. "This 
totally respects free speech. It will be up to judges to decide where 
the balance lies" he said.

The United Kingdom Independence Party said yesterday that it could be 
targeted by the new rules, noting that the Oxford English Dictionary 
definition of xenophobia is "a morbid fear of foreigners or foreign 
countries".

Nigel Farage MEP, the party's chairman, said: "I'm morbidly 
xenophobic about this new country called the European Union, so if 
that is covered by this law then I'm most certainly xenophobic and I 
could be extradited anywhere. So I'm going to make sure my overnight 
bag is packed and ready."


_______________________________________________________________________________
Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address?
Visit http://www.FastCircle.com




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 30 21:00:08 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:00:08 -0800
Subject: Celebrate Bill of Rights Day in Denver (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4AC41D8A-E618-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>



On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 04:11 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> This ought to be fun:
>
> http://www.stanley2002.org/borday.htm
>
>   Join Rick on Bill of Rights Day and defend your right to keep and 
> bear arms.
>   Civil disobedience is the only way to secure our Constitutional rights
>   against an unconstitutional government.
>
>   At high noon on December 15, 2001, at the state Capitol in Denver, 
> Rick will
>   be wearing a loaded pistol in a holster in plain sight for all to 
> see -- per
>   his Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.
>
>   Rick Stanley, Libertarian candidate for U.S. Senate, will be arrested 
> by the
>   Denver police for insisting that his Second Amendment right to keep 
> and bear
>   arms cannot be infringed.
>

Garden variety "civil disobedience." The Feds love it because it shows 
why more gun laws are needed. And they don't have to do the jail time, 
or pay for the trial (taxpayers do), or face any threat of imprisonment 
no matter how the trial verdict turns out.

More interesting would be:

"Rick Stanley says he intends to defend his rights by shooting anyone 
who tries to disarm him."

Yet more interesting:

"Rick Stanley will be backed up by snipers around the Capitol building, 
who will shoot to kill anyone who approaches Mr. Stanley with the intent 
of disarming him."

Even more interesting:

"A Colorado person has placed a $20,000 ecash reward in escrow for 
anyone who can prove he killed a Fed attempting to violate the Second 
Amendment rights of a Colorado resident."


But a garden-variety "I will be arrested" gig is not interesting or 
useful.

--Tim May
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"  
--Unknown Usenet Poster




From o9153 at iol.it  Fri Nov 30 18:07:32 2001
From: o9153 at iol.it (o9153 at iol.it)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:07:32 -0500
Subject: Ultimate Internet Casino!!!                         11769
Message-ID: <00005b4c36dc$00003909$00002df9@jubiipost.dk>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 774 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Nov 30 02:08:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:08:49 +1100
Subject: : Re: hirstory lessons
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130205906.00a33230@pop.useoz.com>


 > Get a sense of humor, you need one.
 >>Naw, he's just low on his stelazine scrip. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson 
sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized 
human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a 
better example:

stelazines been out for 20 years(much like like 'measl'?) Its a shame as I 
was hoping to sue the shit out of some large authoritarian institution 
because of tardive dyskenesia.
Drug de jour-Olanzapine

cypherpunks for the end of civilisation.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Nov 30 02:21:05 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:21:05 +1100
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011130211048.009f7070@pop.useoz.com>


"libertarian socialist" is an oxymoron."
Like anarcho-capitalist?
I do use anarchist gerberally.Tim Im posting articles under your name at 
Indymedia.When I do I try to be very exact with it.
but sometimes Im cutting and pasting like a whirling dervish and dont 
attribute.Thats usually with the more outre statements you make in your 
less lucid moments.Im just telling you as a courtesy,Oh and thanks for not 
popping me in the corn.
          "Who wants to participate to help form what will be the LAST 
revolution on earth, the one that'll take down ALL the governments?"




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Nov 30 19:25:31 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:25:31 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Next Restricted CD Coming Soon
Message-ID: <3C084DAB.BE1476E9@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/30/2240232.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Nov 30 19:26:44 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:26:44 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Open Spectrum: Free the Airwaves
Message-ID: <3C084DF4.BD6F81CB@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/30/1747240.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Nov 30 19:37:11 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:37:11 -0600
Subject: DRUDGE REPORT 2001 - World Exclusive - CBS news veteran called 'traitor'; writes book exposing elite bias
Message-ID: <3C085067.75D123CF@ssz.com>


http://www.drudgereport.com/matt91i.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From petro at bounty.org  Fri Nov 30 22:05:32 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:05:32 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <3C06921E.23156.2672FDC@localhost>
Message-ID: <6DBE4C15-E621-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 07:53 PM, georgemw at speakeasy.net 
wrote:
> On 29 Nov 2001, at 16:11, Wei Dai wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 03:05:18PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>> But there is a scalar number attached to a person which deserves the 
>> name
>> "reputation capital", namely his own judgement of what his reputation 
>> is
>> worth.
> Even this is not a scalar.  Since reputation cannot be bought
> and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is
> false.

	What makes you think a reputation cannot be bought and sold?

	Ever hear of Public Relations firms? Politicians?

	Both are in the business of buying and selling reputations.

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From petro at bounty.org  Fri Nov 30 22:07:28 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:07:28 -0800
Subject: Rumors of the death of Cypherpunks are greatly exaggerated
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 08:49 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:

>
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, David Honig wrote:
>>
>>> Um, Jim, despite the slump, there still plenty of free lowbrow sites 
>>> for
>>> Joe Random to start a mailing list for anything, so Tim's financial
>>> status is irrelevent.
>>
>> But Joe Random isn't a Cypherpunks Leader...
>
> Oh my god!  The Cypherpunks have a *leader*?

	His men would follow him anywhere, if only to see what he'd do next.

--
Amendment II, Revised: A well-regulated population being necessary to 
the security of a police state, the right of the Government to keep and 
destroy arms shall not be infringed.
--Sten Drescher --




From petro at bounty.org  Fri Nov 30 22:10:18 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:10:18 -0800
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist 
In-Reply-To: <4EE85D78-E556-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <1839CD5E-E622-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 09:51 PM, Tim May wrote:
> On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 10:42 PM, mattd wrote:
>> "...libertarian vs. socialist .."From Tims epistle to the faithful.9-11
>> certainly shook a few authoritarians out of the woodpile in both the
>> libertarian and the socialist scenes.Nasty stuff.
>> What happened to libertarian socialist? An R.Crumb cartoon for the
>> noughties,"Im a libertarian socialist!"
> I have no idea who you really are, "mattd," except that I hear you 
> deface McDonald's restaurants and may or may not be under indictment or 
> whatever by the Australian cops. Your calls to have George Bush Jr. 
> killed have likely drawn interest from the polizei.  From your posts 
> here, you look to have the same mental state that C.J. Parker had/has, 
> and that maybe other have. To wit: fragmented sentences, 
> discombobulated logic, weird juxtapositions of words. I'm beginning to 
> think there's a "Rainman Syndrome" at work.

	CJP is/was/will be a lot funnier, and could babble in a fairly 
linear incoherency that mattd cannot.
--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From petro at bounty.org  Fri Nov 30 22:17:58 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:17:58 -0800
Subject: in praise of gold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <2A477E46-E623-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org>



On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 10:13 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Petro wrote:
>> On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 07:58 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Faustine wrote:
>>>>> Not all women are golddiggers.
>>>> They're called 'old maids'. ALL women who are interested in a
>>>> 'relationship' are 'golddiggers' in the sense they want to 'change' 
>>>> the
>>>> other party.
>>> Nothing like a good across the board generalization, huh Jim?
>> 	Well, I hate to be in the position of defending Jimbo, but he's
>> right--in a sense, but not just about women.
> Where does the desire for "a relationship" translate into the desire to
> "change the other party"?
	
	Where is that a requirement in what Jimbo said?

	He said that any (woman) involved in a relationship wanted to 
change the other party, and that made her a gold digger.

	I am stating that in *any* relationship where there are 2 parties, 
both parties would, under a "Perfect Truth Serum" be able to articulate 
at least 2 things about the other party that they want to change.

	So by Jimbo's definition we are all gold diggers.

>> 	I'd be willing to bet (should there be a way of proving it to my
>> satisfaction) that in every relationship, one party would like to 
>> change
>> AT LEAST 2 things about the other party.
> Then I guess we're down the minutae of "what is "a relationship", and 
> what is
> "change"...

	It doesn't matter how you define relationship, altho there was a 
certain kind of relationship assumed (I would stretch it to almost any 
relationship that lasts more that say, 25 minutes) However "change" in 
this context is rather obvious.

>> 	Of course, this then makes every person who gets into any kind of
>> relationship a "gold digger".
>
> The American colloquialism "Golddigger" != "Relationship participant who
> would like to effect changes in the other engaging party(s)".  The 
> Goldigger
> term commonly refers to a woman who marries or engages in highly 
> personal
> (not _necessarily_ sexual, but the inference is a common one) long term
> "relationships" for the accrual of cash and property, rather than any 
> actual
> interest in the partner(s).  Think long-term hookers.  Think Mary 
> Elizabeth
> Terranson :-)

	Sure, but we're not talking normal definitions.

>>> Who was she?  It's nice to see you're not bitter ;-/
>> 	Why do you assume it was a she?
> 
> 	Because Jim's comment specifically referred to women.

	It is considered polite to refer to a TV as a she.

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From comsec.os at virgin.net  Fri Nov 30 15:15:28 2001
From: comsec.os at virgin.net (comsec os)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:15:28 -0000
Subject: "Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat
References: <5CD3184A-E5DE-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <00cf01c179f4$e9f652a0$0100007f@j7fgu>


very good
p.j
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim May 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality


>
>
> On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 01:56 PM, Wei Dai wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 04:28:58PM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> >> Following which, Alice pulls out the pre-dated revocation certificate,
> >> and generates confusion as to the validity of Bob's key change message.
> >
> > I guess we would need a distributed public registry of key
> > change/revocation messages that guarantees only one such message will be
> > posted per key, and any revocation messages not posted to this registry
> > would be ignored.
> >
> > Again, I don't think reputation capital is the best solution to the
> > problem that it tries to solve. I'm just trying to defend it against the
> > charge that it's a nonsensical idea. I still propose b-money as a better
> > alternative. Maybe Tim has found an even better solution, and if so I
> > certainly look forward to seeing it.
>
> I'm writing a response to your long reply to my long article.
>
> (You hadn't responded to my article for some number of days after it
> appeared, which is fine, but that's why I haven't felt pressured to
> reply immediately to your reply.)
>
> I'll try to get it out later today or tomorrow.
>
> But so there's no suspense, I'm not claiming a better cryptographic
> protocol, certainly not involving distributed key registries for nym
> reputations. It's that whole approach I'm arguing against.
>
> Which I think I argued for reasonably well in the long post. If you or
> others are not convinced, fine. But I will send off the reply on
> specific points later, tonight or tomorrow.
>
>
>
> --Tim May
> "Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David
> Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11
>




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Nov 30 23:51:03 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:51:03 -0800
Subject: Journalists to be treated as terrorists
Message-ID: <2B6722F5-E630-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>


"The President announced today that journalists working against the 
interests of the people and filing false reports will be treated as 
terrorists and  subject to severe punishment."

a) President Bush of the U.S.A.

b) President Mugabe of Zimbabwe.

c) Both of them.


--Tim May
"The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the 
government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton




From petro at bounty.org  Fri Nov 30 23:52:02 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:52:02 -0800
Subject: in praise of gold
In-Reply-To: <200111301950.OAA04548@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <4E4F1560-E630-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 11:50 AM, Faustine wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 07:58 PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Faustine wrote:
>>>> Not all women are golddiggers.
>>> They're called 'old maids'. ALL women who are interested in a
>>> 'relationship' are 'golddiggers' in the sense they want to 'change' 
>>> the
>>> other party.
>> Nothing like a good across the board generalization, huh Jim?
>> 	Well, I hate to be in the position of defending Jimbo, but he's
>> right--in a sense, but not just about women.
>> 	I'd be willing to bet (should there be a way of proving it to my
>> satisfaction) that in every relationship, one party would like to 
>> change
>> AT LEAST 2 things about the other party.
> Bah! Anyone who goes around trying to force the other person into 
> becoming
> what they're not probably deserves whatever grief they give themselves 
> over it.

	Who said anything about force?

> I don't change for anyone, nor do I expect anyone to change for me.

	You change every day.
--
Pain looks good on other people.
It's what they're for.
--Sisters of Mercy--




From mail at laugh5.com  Fri Nov 30 10:37:02 2001
From: mail at laugh5.com (Laugh5.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 00:07:02 +0530
Subject: Laugh5.com
Message-ID: <20011201045744.313D813CFD@mail.laugh5.com>

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From adam at cypherspace.org  Fri Nov 30 17:24:58 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:24:58 +0000
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011130135652.D11032@eskimo.com>; from weidai@eskimo.com on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 01:56:52PM -0800
References: <20011130154754.B15620@weathership.homeport.org>  <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org> <20011130135652.D11032@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <20011201012458.A7077901@exeter.ac.uk>


I think you'd want to have a regular public key change, where the user
creates a new public key, signs it with their old key.  This way key
change does not suggest possible ownership change.

Then to effect a nym transfer, the new public key is instead chosen by
the new owner, and the old owner signs it.

This still leaves the problem of the old nym revealing a previously
unpublished identity revocation, or simply some signed statements
which are damaging to the nyms reputation.  

Some ideas on this:

- introduce a time-stamping service for certification signatures only
  (explicitly not for documents)

- re-define valid certificate signatures to be signatures made on
  public key and identity pairs within the validity period of a key

- publish signature private keys after expiry.

Now anyone can create nym revocation with old keys, and so no
reputational damage can be done by the old owner with nym revocations.

The time-stamper will not assist in signing arbitrary documents, and
so the old nym owner can not use it to prove a document was signed
during the validity period of the key.  (Were it signed after the
validity period it would anyway not be considered a valid signature).

Where general document signing time-stamping is used, to prevent
post-sale nym reputation suicide, the new owner could demand all past
signed messages and verify them against the merkle hash tree master
hash maintained by the time-stamper, and vet the messages as not
damaging to the nyms reputation.

For private encrypted messages the nym would not like to share, even
after nym sale, a non-transferable signature scheme could be used,
with the time-stamper having a separate hash-tree for such signatures.

The new owner would be somewhat assured that the old owner could not
have any signatures that he can both prove the time of authorship of
and transfer.  

The availability of third party time-stamping services, and other
simple methods of dating documents (pre-published hash, 3rd party
vouching for time of authorship) limits the assurances provided by the
above approaches.

Another avenue might be designated verifier signatures where the
signature sheme necessarily requires collaboration of a verifier, and
the verifier will take instructions from the current owner.

Or better where only the current owner in collaboration with the
designated verifier can assist a user in verifying a signature.  (eg
using pro-active security to re-split the key on nym sale so the old
owner isn't able to collaborate in verification).

In this way the new owner gets to vet which signatures the public can
verify.

Adam

On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 01:56:52PM -0800, Wei Dai wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 04:28:58PM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> > Following which, Alice pulls out the pre-dated revocation certificate, 
> > and generates confusion as to the validity of Bob's key change message.
> 
> I guess we would need a distributed public registry of key
> change/revocation messages that guarantees only one such message will be
> posted per key, and any revocation messages not posted to this registry
> would be ignored.
> 
> Again, I don't think reputation capital is the best solution to the
> problem that it tries to solve. I'm just trying to defend it against the
> charge that it's a nonsensical idea. I still propose b-money as a better
> alternative. Maybe Tim has found an even better solution, and if so I
> certainly look forward to seeing it.
> 




From community at placesofcolor.com  Fri Nov 30 18:16:52 2001
From: community at placesofcolor.com (Places Of Color)
Date: 1 Dec 2001 02:16:52 -0000
Subject: Our Community...Let's Get Connected.
Message-ID: <20011201021652.21507.qmail@uptilt.com>

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offer and much more!                   

To unsubscribe, send an email to: unsubscribe-2949 at uptilt.com
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From webmaster at mailpartner.co.kr  Fri Nov 30 13:35:58 2001
From: webmaster at mailpartner.co.kr (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMyz68S/ucK0z8TJwMy8xw==?=)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 06:35:58 +0900
Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIENZUEhFUlBVTktTtNQgtKmxuD8gt8659saux9K4rrChLi65uT8gvLy9ur+1vu5UQVBFuKYuLr7zuLY/ILD4wqW3zi4uIA==?=
Message-ID: <200111302137.NAA26475@toad.com>

샘플교재(테이프)를받아보고싶으신분은주소를기재하신후.아래의신청하기버튼을클릭하세요. 
 









 

샘플 교재(테이프)를 받아보고 싶으신 분은 주소를 기재하신 후. 아래의 신청하기 버튼을 클릭하세요. 




 





 


   
   >>>  원치 않는 메일을 받으셨다면 이점 양해해 주시기 바랍니다.  
        수신을  원치 않으시면 아래 이메일 주소를 입력하시고 수신거부  버튼을 클릭해 주시기 바랍니다. 
        문의  : 이노커뮤니케이션 (02)6351-7500        webmaster at mailpartner.co.kr
  					    
         이메일  입력   									   
       
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From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Nov 30 22:02:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 17:02:20 +1100
Subject: Portland police refuses to ask FBI's illegal questions 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201165626.00a584f0@pop.useoz.com>


I have a brief thank you note from this fine officer to a supportive e-mail 
I sent him.I urge all cypherascals to e-mail support to andrew.(and katie 
sierra,berkeley council,et al)




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Nov 30 22:45:43 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 17:45:43 +1100
Subject: Attn JYA
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201174429.00a5beb0@pop.useoz.com>


"The radical act of the terrorists opens a space for us to think radically 
as well," Michael Sorkin, director of the Graduate Program in Urban Design 
at City College, writing in a special issue of the Sunday mazagine section 
of The New York Times that was published on 11 November 2001.
One of the ironies of the spectacular destruction of the World Trade Center 
(WTC) on 11 September 2001 is the fact that, at the time they collapsed, 
the famous "Twin Towers" were obsolete and in need of being destroyed.
Built for an enormous amount of money between 1966 and 1970 by the Port 
Authority of the State of New York, the Twin Towers were intended to house 
a great many foreign financial institutions and to provide everything that 
their managers, employees and clients might need (hotels, restaurants, 
shops, movie theaters, etc. etc). Despite the novelty of being the tallest 
buildings in the world -- a distinction that only lasted until 1976, when 
the Sears Tower was built in Chicago -- the Twin Towers were always 
money-losers as rental properties and required huge subsidies from the 
State of New York to remain solvent.
As it turned out, visiting business men and women weren't satisfied to 
remain within the WTC's purportedly self-sufficient universe, and wished to 
venture (and shop and do business) outside of it. Because all of the 
windows in both towers were sealed up tight, and because neither tower was 
equipped to take advantage of its unique potential to generate power using 
the wind or solar energy, the WTC complex was ludicrously costly to heat 
and light. But perhaps most importantly, advances in information and 
telecommunication technologies decentralized the financial markets, which 
in turn "rolled back" the necessity for foreign institutions to be in close 
physical proximity to each other, Wall Street and the rest of lower 
Manhattan, which is precisely what the gigantic size and centralized 
location of the Twin Towers were intended to provide.
Though this may be hard for some to believe, especially in these 
sentimental times, the Twin Towers were hated by many New Yorkers, who 
would have been happy if the goddamned things had never been built. An 
entire neighborhood was destroyed to make way for them. Fully twice the 
size of the buildings around them, they blocked the sunlight from getting 
through and stuck out like sore thumbs. Indeed, the Twin Towers were so 
excessively large that the only place one could escape them and see New 
York City's famous skyline without distraction was on top of one of the 
tower's observation decks! Their steel surfaces played havoc with radio and 
TV broadcasts, which meant that broadcasters were forced to move their 
transmitters (they had little choice but to put them atop one of the 
towers!). And unlike the modestly tall buildings at Rockefeller Center, 
which are surrounded by an "extroverted" or open space through which 
pedestrian traffic can move freely, the freakishly tall Twin Towers were 
surrounded by a blank, abstract space that was "introverted" and closed off.
More inc pic 
at     http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=98399&group=webcast




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Nov 30 23:04:55 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 18:04:55 +1100
Subject: "Im a libertarian socialist!"
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201174912.00a5a290@pop.useoz.com>


http://world.std.com/~mhuben/leftlib.html    for well known liar james

Actually its not "I dont know",the correct legal term is "I dont 
recall",(for Tim.) I was fine for medications till global warming killed my 
mushrooms.Also its prosecutor too tim,maybe you need a little something for 





From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Nov 30 23:12:23 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 18:12:23 +1100
Subject: Theft
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201181127.00a0ebc0@pop.useoz.com>


Que? Nowt to do with me weasl.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Nov 30 23:17:19 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 18:17:19 +1100
Subject: Celebrate Bill of Rights Day in Denver (fwd) 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201181436.00a12cf0@pop.useoz.com>


"Even more interesting: "A Colorado person has placed a $20,000 ecash 
reward in escrow for anyone who can prove he killed a Fed attempting to 
violate the Second Amendment rights of a Colorado resident."

Crypto winter my arse.  'Now is my winter made glorious summer by this blah 
blah blah..."




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Nov 30 23:36:18 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 18:36:18 +1100
Subject: Fwd: collapse of govts.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201183231.00a14010@pop.useoz.com>


>To: cypherpunks at lne.com
>From: mattd 
>Subject: collapse of govts.
>
>Bleaching the serial nos off money is Illegal
>Ditto for anthrax scares and death threats esp toward arbusto and his heirs
>Pornographers and drug cartels should not be allied with in a popular AP 
>front under any circumstances.
>Please dont send the following as printed as its been filtered.Spamming by 
>the million might be legal but it could clog the echelon security 
>system.Dont do it!
listen up gutless trolls
by pr 1:55am Sun Nov 25 '01


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