From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Mar  1 05:38:02 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 05:38:02 -0800
Subject: NIEGPINI.EXE infected with Win-CIH virus!
References: <200102191144.DAA01216@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <22f8f1c8cf0313d24b6a6200d7dced3f@melontraffickers.com>


The attachment NIEGPINI.EXE from Sender: owner-cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com 
(didn't someone just say SSZ is open relay?) is infected with the 
Win-CIH virus (hope you had anti-virus software).

Win-CIH is particularly nasty in that you don't have to run an 
infected .EXE to catch it. Browsing a folder in windows explorer will 
look inside the infected .EXE for an icon to display, which is enough 
to start the viral code. Full Outlook (no experience with Express) 
calls up such icons (barf!)

List members should be aware of this new attack on the CDR. 

The infected program is also in both archives. Do they want to know 
or have they abdicated responsibility for the contents of the archives?


Anonymous Whistleblower.


[Forwarded message]



From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Mar  1 06:54:16 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:54:16 -0800
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
In-Reply-To: <3A9E28A4.3D1B09A5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <20010228181107.A21080@alcove.wittsend.com>
 <200103010042.f210gCm12331@artifact.psychedelic.net>
 <200103010459.XAA15092@divert.sendon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010301065416.008cf310@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:47 AM 3/1/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>Though I bet that if you asked a late mediaeval lawyer about the
>philosophy they'd tell you that it is because a crime is something that
>threatens society. Murder, theft, rape, arson, treason & all those
>things are threats to us all and should be pursued by the courts even if
>victims don't wish to follow them up. 

FWIW: Here in the states, it is becoming a trend for prosecutors to file
domestic-violence charges even if the battered spouse declines to
file. 

 

 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Mar  1 06:56:16 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:56:16 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On
  Flawed Theory,           NotFacts
In-Reply-To: <3A9E2C2E.D20BF18@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010301065616.008cd7e0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:02 AM 3/1/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>Reese wrote:
>
>
>> I don't think Godwin would agree.  Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet
>> named after Mike Godwin (godwin at eff.org) concerning Usenet "discussions".
>> It reads, according to the Jargon File: As a Usenet discussion grows
longer,
>> the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
>
>
>Of course, as any text grows longer the probability that it contains any
>other text approaches one... just more or less slowly.  Godwin's law
>needs some quantification.

Perhaps there are simply more National Socialists out there than recognize
that fact.

........
A sociologist was interviewing a southern farmer:
Why do you think the murder rate is higher in the south?
I guess more southerners need killin'.

 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Mar  1 07:01:33 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:01:33 -0800
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <ad691c928d3f8eaa4123fa26e55cb36b@mixmaster.shinn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010301070133.008cf1a0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:21 AM 3/1/01 -0500, An Metet wrote:
>[Sorry about the name. "Pirate" satellites don't sound 'dangerous' 
>enough to need shooting down.]
>
>
>Suppose can-sats WERE launched illegally, and then started broadcasting 
><time synchronisation signals/OTP/other cypherpunk related> signals, 
>along with a spoken commentary by Radio Free North America (so Joe 
>Sixpack has an excuse when those nice detector van gentlemen knock on 
>his door and ask why he's listening to 128.0 FM) 
>
>What could a the US Government do about the satellite, other than make 
>an example out of the miscreants who launched it?

Of course all these questions (and answers) apply to folks
sending IP packets too.  But that's why you included the Sealand ref.,
no doubt.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Mar  1 07:11:08 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:11:08 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy"
   On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010228115959.11750A-100000@bard.edu>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010227231001.01f1fc98@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010301070558.01f28618@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
 > > It appears to me that this rule is most commonly invoked by those whose
 > > ideology and program has a marked resemblance to Nazism, and derives
 > > from Nazi philosophers.

At 12:02 PM 2/28/2001 -0500, David Stultz wrote:
 > Somehow I feel that my position (although now I see that I was wrong), was
 > a Nazi-related view.

It was not my intention to imply that, and I do not think your post was 
Nazi related.

However, as someone who routinely gets in flame fests with real Nazis, both 
the plug ugly kind who claim the lesser races are secretly making war with 
us, and the kind that piously tell us "I am not a nazi and my best friends 
are jews but ...", I am no fan of Godwin's law.

You do not have to be a nazi to invoke it, but it frequently seems that way.

Similarly the commies routinely invoke McCarthy.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      yBjC2vqQBWoHDEGz7+tnuaoHTgAKDjOwhiJRNMZV
      4FAfnx+Vg+XLoAcBmfWMpTlpePSiAKMIlBcQD8zz2




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Mar  1 07:13:54 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:13:54 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge [blah blah blah]
In-Reply-To: <200102281812.NAA28360@www5.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010301071150.01e92130@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
  At 11:23 PM 2/27/2001 -0500, David Stultz wrote:
 > > > Isn't there some sort of rule where at the first mention of
 > > > "Hitler" or "Nazi", it's the end of the thread?

James A. Donald:
 > > It appears to me that this rule is most commonly invoked by those
 > > whose ideology and program has a marked resemblance to Nazism, and
 > > derives from Nazi philosophers.

At 01:12 PM 2/28/2001 -0500, George at Orwellian.Org wrote:
 > Nonsense.
 >
 > This rule is alive and well in Usenet.

In large part because nazism is alive and well in Usenet.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      5U5BFM1HEjTDhH61g2MW2TRu376RCmK1hEOucEow
      4xCwEZJuESzrksGp+Ub5wnrvGrV3pkqFqIup6M8Xc




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  1 05:27:36 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:27:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Re: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts]
In-Reply-To: <20010301040958.13313.qmail@nwcst281.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010301072429.5925X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On 28 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

> It's all in the timing.

Right and wrong have timing? I think not.

> If the censors are the last to judge,

Censors are the first to judge. 'a priori' effectively means 'before'.

> they self proclaim the right to punish
> or take corrective action.

What censor ever took a self-proclaimed right to censor and actually got
away with it? You cast censorship as if it were a private/personal act
when in fact it's a societal act, many against one. If it's couched in
anything it's a mis-applied concept of self-defence.

> So justice is held in a pyramid scheme
> where those not fortunate or not able to be
> on top are by definition the only liable to
> be judged by terrestrial powers.

That's not justice, that human nature. Don't have a clue how we got into
talking about space aliens (ie terrestrial powers).

Are you mean transcendental as in religious?

> The odd thing about this is judgments
> are punitive in nature, so those at the bottom
> slip further down; distancing the judging party
> from the judged. Kind of a reinforcing cycle.

????

> Can you think of mechanisms to trigger this cycle Jim?

I'm not sure what 'cycle' you mean.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jimmythetulip19 at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  1 04:27:44 2001
From: jimmythetulip19 at earthlink.net (jimmythetulip19 at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:27:44 -0500
Subject: [Resend]
Message-ID: <auto-000000107819@baltimorelutheran.org>



[Resend]  Was Not Able To Take Last Entry..  Please Fill Out Again.

Hey... We Haven't Talked In So Long!!  How Have You Been?
Thought I would Forward you this email!

I usually delete these but I opened this one, like what I saw, 
and thought you would like to see this.

http://www.geocities.com/newest8989/

IF THE LINK IS NOT HIGHLIGHTED OR YOU CANNOT CLICK ON IT.
COPY AND PASTE IT IN YOUR BROWSER.












From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Mar  1 07:40:49 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:40:49 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On
  Flawed Theory,   NotFacts
In-Reply-To: <3A9E5F13.B97FBF36@ricardo.de>
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>
 <3A9E2C2E.D20BF18@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010301072808.01e92130@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
Ken Brown wrote:
 > > Of course, as any text grows longer the probability that it
 > > contains any other text approaches one... just more or less
 > > slowly.  Godwin's law needs some quantification.

At 03:39 PM 3/1/2001 +0100, Tom wrote:
 > don't think so. it's a good observation, and most likely better than
 > yours unless we talk about infinities. there are libraries full of
 > books where neither nazis or hitler are even mentioned. yet usenet
 > debates DO converge on those topics with surprising pace. most
 > likely a psychological thing - the search for a recent, extreme and
 > well-known example or counter-example to your point. in the middle
 > ages, one would've used witchcraft and satan instead.

You are full of shit.

I went to groups.google.com and did a search for usenet posts using the 
word "nazi" http://groups.google.com/groups?q=nazi

Every single hit among the first page of hits was an appropriate and 
relevant use of the word nazi,   Typical fragment from one of the posts

: : 	 whites are EXPECTED to support and feel simpathetic for
: : 	 what happened 400 years ago. When in reality its the best
: : 	 thing thats ever happened to the half breed monkeys that
: : 	 plauge our society.

If usenet threads tend to feature the word nazi, it is because there are 
plenty of nazis on usenet, whereas in published books the publishers screen 
them out.

Same thing for the frequent invocation of McCarthy by commies.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      P9dodNiWfcTAmppyXXpPobdfbRcTFtEL0l+dd4Ea
      42skNF5abq7BSLPQ5iLIHH1kIHLC1ejBfcMbsUryT




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Mar  1 08:03:45 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:03:45 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On
  Flawed Theory,   NotFacts
In-Reply-To: <3A9E5F13.B97FBF36@ricardo.de>
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>
 <3A9E2C2E.D20BF18@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010301075722.01e93110@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
I wrote:
 > I went to groups.google.com and did a search for usenet posts using
 > the word "nazi" http://groups.google.com/groups?q=nazi
 >
 > Every single hit among the first page of hits was an appropriate and
 > relevant use of the word nazi,

This was incorrect:  Eight of the first ten posts were appropriate uses of 
the word "nazi".  Two were inappropriate.

Scanning subsequent pages, a substantial portion were bogus uses of the 
word nazi -- IBM sold Hollerith machines to the nazis, Bush's family did 
business with the nazis, etc.

Strange how such transactions are evidence of nazism, while trading with 
Cuba is not evidence of communism.

However although inappropriate uses of the word "nazi" are common, they are 
not so common that any use of the word "nazi" can be automatically discredited.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      sUhjMOWMWlXa+kEcKt9R/NoNYIgDusAX5QMcA/hz
      4A09DAun6xZzYg93K6darpw/7icwaZmajkhJBZIH7




From bfk at mindspring.com  Thu Mar  1 08:14:50 2001
From: bfk at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:14:50 -0800
Subject: Nutella -the best lube for child raping
Message-ID: <3A9E757A.7E5EF8D7@mindspring.com>


                    "millions of Internet users would associate the word

                       'Nutella' with a virtual conglomerate of
copyright
                       pirates and friends of child pornography, rather
than
                       the family-friendly nougat spread."

http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,22499,00.html
"Nutella Finds Gnutella Hard to Swallow "




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Thu Mar  1 05:21:16 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:21:16 -0500
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
Message-ID: <ad691c928d3f8eaa4123fa26e55cb36b@mixmaster.shinn.net>


[Sorry about the name. "Pirate" satellites don't sound 'dangerous' 
enough to need shooting down.]


Suppose can-sats WERE launched illegally, and then started broadcasting 
<time synchronisation signals/OTP/other cypherpunk related> signals, 
along with a spoken commentary by Radio Free North America (so Joe 
Sixpack has an excuse when those nice detector van gentlemen knock on 
his door and ask why he's listening to 128.0 FM) 

What could a the US Government do about the satellite, other than make 
an example out of the miscreants who launched it?
Would they be able to physically shoot at it, jam its signal or burn 
out its electronics from the ground or aircraft altitude? Could someone 
put up enough disposable 'bandit-sats' (expecting to make less orbits 
than Sputnik) over time to make it uneconomical to keep shooting them 
out of the sky?

How easy would it be for the launch crew to stay ahead of ground based 
forces? I'm guessing they could mount rockets one to two months ahead 
of launch date and abandon the site, assuming the rockets don't need 
constant attention. Would directional transmissions from ground to 
satellite be traceable (and would this depend on whether there are 
other birds in the part of the sky I want to send to)?
Would retrieval of a returned film capsule be possible before Air 
Force helicopters descended on the landing site?


Cliff Secord.

--
Sealand's latitude, and a map from the old Sealand pages at:
<http://www.fruitsofthesea.demon.co.uk/sealand/factfile.html>

	Sealand is located in the southern part of the North Sea some 
	six miles off the coast of Britain and from sixty-five to one 
	hundred miles from the coasts of France, Belgium, Holland and 
	Germany; Latitude 51.53 N, Longitude 01.28 E (see map).
 	<http://www.fruitsofthesea.demon.co.uk/sealand/map.html>




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Thu Mar  1 05:36:02 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip M Hallam-Baker)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:36:02 -0500
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not         Facts
In-Reply-To: <3A9E2BBF.60C5FD95@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <000601c0a254$8fc9e620$0700a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>





> Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Hence the anecdotes such as QWERTY, Betamax are attacked as 
> if they were the
> > best evidence, the sole evidence even for network effects. This is
> > historical revisionism in the service of dogmatic ideology.
> > 
> > Positive feedback exists, get over it.
> 
> Surely the classic network effect is railway gauge? 
> 
> And about as hard to deny as the sun rising in the east.
> 
> Ken


The crank tank probably dismisses it as being determined mainly
by government regulation. Most railway acts had a guage clause.

However in the UK the vastly superior broad guage was converted
to narrow precisely because of network effects.

The crank tank is asking me to distinguish between 'path 
dependence' (a term I have not used) and 'network externalities'.
This is clearly a tactical ploy to try to move the argument to 
their definitions. It is an Oxford Union debating trick for folk
with a weak cause.

The original argument was addressed to a public audience. If the
crank tank 'Independent Institute' cannot justify their claim
in public language they are clearly frauds and should retreat to
the house litterature they publish their whacky theories in.

The claim the economic effects can only be understood by experts
in the field is made to foreclose debate. They want to claim that
you and me and everyone on the list that does not agree with them
do so out of ignorance. Oh by the way they get to decide who is
an expert.

The Institute for Historical Reform and the Creationism Study
Institute use the same tactic.


	Phill




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Mar  1 05:43:25 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:43:25 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker ("network
 externality")
Message-ID: <v04220800b6c3f9b3bb3d@[198.4.94.231]>



From bfk at mindspring.com  Thu Mar  1 08:43:36 2001
From: bfk at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:43:36 -0800
Subject: ebay restricting DVD player sales -RIAA tentacles
Message-ID: <3A9E7C38.14811C84@mindspring.com>


The company [EBay] also has instituted a policy to prohibit the
              sale of anything recorded on a blank compact disc, and it
              stops sales of certain types of DVD players and gaming
              equipment that can be used with illegally copied media.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-02-28-ebay.htm

The RIAA must have some very scary lawyers.





From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Mar  1 05:48:09 2001
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:48:09 -0500
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing
 list/forum
In-Reply-To: <200102221836.KAA11368@acid.bpm.ai>
References: <200102221836.KAA11368@acid.bpm.ai>
Message-ID: <p05010410b6c402e95158@[10.0.1.3]>

At 10:36 AM -0800 on 2/22/01, Sameer Parekh wrote:


> yet another reason I'm not
> in the crypto/security industry anymore.

That and a possible non-compete agreement with Red-Hat? ;-).

Cheers,
RAH
Who just remembered that Doug Barnes is now in the *head-hunting* business,
of all things, though I would believe that they're actually both tired of
the thrash...
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Thu Mar  1 07:26:34 2001
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:26:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: HR 726: Ban on Internet firearm trading..."obtain, dispose,
    offer to obtain or dispose"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010228151624.008bb890@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10103010923350.15199-100000@cavern.uark.edu>


I think the Hon. Ms. Mink has something else in mind than mere ads.
I can't "obtain" a gun at Turner's website anyway, however, so her
Bill doesn't seem to have a practical effect, except to give the
prosecutor another potential charge to stack.
MacN

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 03:37 PM 2/28/01 -0600, Mac Norton wrote:
> >Probably already prohibited, as a practical matter, under one or
> >another provision of 18 USC 922.
> >MacN
> 
> Nope.
> 
> The posting of commercial advertisements on the net is currently ok; 
> see http://www.turners.com/engage/ads.php for instance.
> 
> This is another attempt to make the net lower-status than deadtrees.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
> >
> >> http://thomas.loc.gov
> >> 
> >> HR 726 [Feb. 26]
> >> To ban the use of the Internet to obtain or dispose, or offer to obtain or
> >> dispose of, a firearm.
> >> Rep. Patsy Mink (D-HI) http://www.house.gov/mink/
> 
> .......
> Unbeknown to the latter, Marks had already cracked 
> General de Gaulle's private cypher in a spare moment 
> on the lavatory. 




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Thu Mar  1 09:37:56 2001
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (lizard)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:37:56 -0800
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker 
 ("networkexternality")
References: <v04220800b6c3f9b3bb3d@[198.4.94.231]>
Message-ID: <3A9E88F4.5EFDAA9@mrlizard.com>


Hm.

It's odd my two main hobbies -- arguing about libertarian politics and
RPGs -- overlap, but check this out:
http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/interview-rsd-0300.htm

(Do a search on 'network' to find the relevant section of the
interview.)

Apologies to Matt and the II, but from where I stand, the theory seems
pretty sound. People buy thing because other people buy them. People are
stupid. So it goes. Where Phill, the DOJ, and the rest of the
left-liberals screw up is going from this obvious conclusion to
"Therefore, government must point guns at people to make them make smart
buying decisions." All of leftist 'thought' hinges on the highly dubious
premise that you can MAKE people smarter, either by threatening to shoot
them (Stalinist/Hitlerist socialism) or simply tying them up so they
can't hurt themselves (modern 'liberal' socialism). Neither works.

Capitalism tends to produce superior goods and services over time, but
this isn't it's moral justification. If it was, I'd argue for a massive
AI project designed to produce a super-computer which could use
evolutionary algorithms to make optimized everything and control the
factories. The moral justification for capitalism is that it is based on
individuals making their own decisions about how to spend the products
of their own labor. If a lot of these decisions are illogical,
short-sighted, emotionally biased, or self-destructive -- well, that's
humanity. There isn't any New Socialist Man on the horizon, so we are
much better off letting stupid people spend their OWN money on stupid
things, rather than turning 'the means of production' over to these
morons.

Want to know what happens when 'the people control the means of
production'? Picture no art but painings of Elvis on velvet -- forever.

Is Microsoft on top because of stupid human buying patterns as opposed
to superior software? Yeah, probably. What should the government do
about this? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Thu Mar  1 09:41:01 2001
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (lizard)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:41:01 -0800
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker("network 
 externality")
References: <v04220800b6c3f9b3bb3d@[198.4.94.231]> <fvqs9t0c9a6ifc2d3srfh9a0oca5svi8i5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3A9E89AD.3CA4931C@mrlizard.com>


Paul Spirito wrote:
> 

> Why should this impress us? Do you always break things down into left &
> right? Ralph Nader & Pat Buchanan can't /both/ be wrong about trade, can
> they? Oh, my.
> 
Since they both have the SAME opinion (crypto-fascist uber-nationalism
disguised as populism) why not?




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Mar  1 09:46:46 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:46:46 -0800
Subject: Decentralized Markets
In-Reply-To: <3A9E7C38.14811C84@mindspring.com>
References: <3A9E7C38.14811C84@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <a05010417b6c43527999e@[207.111.241.61]>


At 8:43 AM -0800 3/1/01, Blank Frank wrote:
>The company [EBay] also has instituted a policy to prohibit the
>               sale of anything recorded on a blank compact disc, and it
>               stops sales of certain types of DVD players and gaming
>               equipment that can be used with illegally copied media.
>
>http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-02-28-ebay.htm
>
>The RIAA must have some very scary lawyers.


This is a very good example of a problem which was predicted by some 
on this list, and which is now happening: the electronic agora is so 
much more visible than the traditional flea markets, so much more 
efficient, and thus is so much more targettable.

Ebay restricting DVD players, the French trying to prosecute Yahoo 
(and probably, soon, Amazon, Ebay, etc.) for selling thoughtcrime 
books and regalia, the Germans doing similar things.

This is the flip side of "regulatory arbitrage": a nexus of corporate 
control which can be sued, have executives threatened with jailing 
(*), and even RICO and other conspiracy suits.

(Wags usually say that France cannot jail a VP of Ebay or Yahoo, that 
the U.S. will not cooperate with French authorities and arrest and 
extradite. Ah, but the French can arrest any Ebay or Yahoo exec, or 
even middle manager, who lands on their shores. Or who passes through 
a similarly-minded nation with good relations with France. Recall a 
few years ago when Germany arranged to have a transitting thought 
criminal arrested in Denmark or Holland, I forget which, and then 
extradited to the Fatherland for political reeducation.)

This general situation of a "nexus of corporate control" is one 
reason Napster is about to go down for the count. By having a 
centralized service, and a suable corporate or partnership entity, 
and by essentially advertising themselves as a pirate music source, 
they were a ripe target.

Long-term list members will know that many of us said the same thing 
about Zero Knowledge Systems. I specifically predicted to Austin and 
Hammie in a meeting we had in late 1998 that ZKS would come under 
legal assault as soon as the Freedom Network became implicated in 
sufficiently serious crimes. Porn rings, pedophile networks, plots to 
kill the Canadian PM, extortion threats, etc.

(ZKS has "abuse" policies in place, but so long as Freedom nyms are 
not actually traceable, which is what they say and which no one has 
demonstrated otherwise, an after the fact cancellation policy is not 
a powerful deterrent for criminals and thought criminals. Do the math 
and see that the $50 for 5 nyms is a trivial cost for those 
incentivized to be untraceable.)

Back to suing corporations. Instead of suing a thousand individual 
flea markets for "allowing" sales of DVD players, just threaten Ebay 
with a lawsuit. Ebay backs down and issues an instruction, backed up 
easily by software filters. The efficiency of electronic agoras 
result in efficient threats agains those who run such centralized 
agoras.

As this process unfolds, expect lawsuits from Pez dispenser 
manufacturers claiming that bootlegs of their products are being 
sold. Expect sales of used machinery to be threatened by the original 
manufacturers (perhaps claiming that used generators and lawn mowers 
are "potentially unsafe"). Expect Saudi Arabia to sue to block sales 
of Islamic (and, obviously, anti-Islamic) materials.

Is it all hopeless? Are we destined to see a world of a few 
corporations like Yahoo and Ebay and Amazon being choke points for 
any tinhorn dictator threatening to sue them and arrest their 
employees?

The answer is, of course, decentralized networks, decentralized markets.

Gnutella, Open Napster, Freenet, Mojo Nation, Cypherpunks-style 
remailers. (Some of these still have elements of centralized control. 
But the centralized control and corporate points of attack may 
someday be discarded as unnecessary, pace the discussions we've had 
of "everyone a mint" in digital money systems.)

The Cypherpunks future lies with these decentralized systems. 
Obvious, but true.

Cyberspace has enough degrees of freedom that various markets can be 
instantiated without some corporation operating the "market." (Usenet 
is a primitive example.)

There really is no long-term need for an Ebay to be a "market maker." 
The future will bring more options for online auctions, for new 
pricing mechanisms.

(Personally, I can see systems like Mojo recasting themselves as 
alternatives to Ebay. I don't know if Jim and his friends are 
thinking along these lines, though.)

Centralized control is a more general problem than just "men with 
guns" controlling others. Centralized control is also a target for 
other centralized controllers. Ebay and Yahoo are finding this out in 
a big way.

Let a billion buyers and sellers bloom.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Mar  1 10:06:00 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:06:00 -0800
Subject: Godwin's Law and Common Reference Points
In-Reply-To: <3A9E5F13.B97FBF36@ricardo.de>
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu> 
  <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com> 
  <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com> 
  <3A9E2C2E.D20BF18@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <3A9E5F13.B97FBF36@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <a05010418b6c43c1c3c10@[207.111.241.61]>


At 3:39 PM +0100 3/1/01, Tom wrote:
>Ken Brown wrote:
>>  > I don't think Godwin would agree.  Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet
>>  > named after Mike Godwin (godwin at eff.org) concerning Usenet "discussions".
>>  > It reads, according to the Jargon File: As a Usenet discussion 
>>grows longer,
>>  > the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
>>
>>  Of course, as any text grows longer the probability that it contains any
>>  other text approaches one... just more or less slowly.  Godwin's law
>>  needs some quantification.
>
>don't think so. it's a good observation, and most likely better than
>yours unless we talk about infinities. there are libraries full of books
>where neither nazis or hitler are even mentioned. yet usenet debates DO
>converge on those topics with surprising pace. most likely a
>psychological thing - the search for a recent, extreme and well-known
>example or counter-example to your point. in the middle ages, one
>would've used witchcraft and satan instead.

A very good point. Nazis and Hitler are one of the "benchmarks" for 
evil that most of us agree upon, regardless of our various political 
beliefs. (Not counting a small segment which supports Hitler and 
Nazism.)

Thus, it's a "Schelling point" for people to compare things to, a 
common reference point that all participants are likely to have 
knowledge of. Hence the wide use of comparisons to Hitler and the 
Nazis, hence Godwin's Law. Tom is right that in earlier centuries the 
comparisons would have been to Satan and witches and suchlike.

Another such Schelling point is Big Brother, and the general language 
of George Orwell in "1984" (a novel which has given us _so many_ rich 
and illustrative additions to the English language, including, off 
the top of my head: Big Brother, thoughtcrime, war is peace, freedom 
is slavery, proles, we have always been at war with Oceania, Ministry 
of Truth, ignorance is strength, doublethink, doubleplusungood, 
Brin-style surveillance cameras in homes and flats, and several other 
rich images).

Other common reference points are references to Christ, Genghis Khan, 
Alexander the Great, the Roman Empire, and so on. And World War II in 
general.

We refer to images out of history and religion as part of our common 
heritage of ideas and beliefs.

(By the way, without _defending_ World War II in any way, it was 
_such_ a watershed period, such a seminal event, that one can only 
look back in awe at what happened. The development of technology 
(radar, manufacturing methods, jet aircraft, computers, the atom 
bomb, etc.), the realignment of the political map, the whole division 
between pre-war and post-war systems. It was the defining political, 
economic, military, and historical event of the past century, 
probably the past two centuries. All things stand in the shadow of 
the Second World War.)

I believe there are many valid ways to refer to the Nazis and Hitler 
without some knee jerk invocation of Godwin's Law. (I haven't talked 
to Mike in several years, but I expect he would agree that Godwin's 
Law is often, even usually, invoked in a knee-jerk way.)

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ericm at lne.com  Thu Mar  1 10:10:34 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:10:34 -0800
Subject: NIEGPINI.EXE infected with Win-CIH virus!
In-Reply-To: <22f8f1c8cf0313d24b6a6200d7dced3f@melontraffickers.com>;
  from juicy@melontraffickers.com on Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 05:38:02AM
  -0800
References: <200102191144.DAA01216@sirius.infonex.com>
  <22f8f1c8cf0313d24b6a6200d7dced3f@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <20010301101034.A8667@slack.lne.com>


On Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 05:38:02AM -0800, A. Melon wrote:
> The attachment NIEGPINI.EXE from Sender: owner-cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com 
> (didn't someone just say SSZ is open relay?) is infected with the 
> Win-CIH virus (hope you had anti-virus software).

SSZ's being an open relay doesn't have anything to do with people sending
virii through it.  All CDRs, except the one at lne.com, accept and re-post
mail from anyone, on the cypherpunks list or not.   That's not an open
relay, which is a mailer that allows third-party mail- i.e. joe spammer @
aol sends mail to ssz which then forwards it to the spammer's targets.

That said, even if all the CDRs only accepted posts from subscribers
("closed" list), the list would be subject to virii-- Exchange seems to
be the email virus writer's target of choice (opportunity?) these days,
and too many people use Exchange, probably because their corporate IT
depts force them to.

> List members should be aware of this new attack on the CDR. 

What makes you think that the virus was specifically an attack on the CDR?

-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From Julie_Haenisch at pupress.princeton.edu  Thu Mar  1 07:30:31 2001
From: Julie_Haenisch at pupress.princeton.edu (Julie Haenisch)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:30:31 -0500
Subject: "Republic.com"
Message-ID: <mailman.370.1576007500.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Below you will find a brief description of a new title published by
Princeton University Press. We hope that you will find this title of
interest to your audience and will add our link to your web page. Our link
is: http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/7014.html

"Republic.com"
by Cass Sunstein

*** Chat with Cass Sunstein in a Message Forum to be hosted on Princeton
University Press's web site beginning April 1, 2001.

*** Read the first chapter online for free, click here:
http://pup.princeton.edu/chapters/s7014.html

See only what you want to see, hear only what you want to hear, read only
what you want to read. In cyberspace, we already have the ability to filter
out everything but what we wish to see, hear, and read. Tomorrow, our power
to filter promises to increase exponentially. With the advent of the Daily
Me, you see only the sports highlights that concern your teams, read about
only the issues that interest you, encounter in the op-ed pages only the
opinions with which you agree. In all of the applause for this remarkable
ascendance of personalized information, Cass Sunstein asks the questions, Is
it good for democracy? Is it healthy for the republic? What does this mean
for freedom of speech?

Cloth $19.95  ISBN: 0-691-07025-3
224 pages. 5 x 7. (2001)

Read more about "Republic.com" by Cass Sunstein:
http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/7014.html

Thank you for your time.
-- 
Julie Haenisch
Text Promotion Manager
Princeton University Press
http://pup.princeton.edu

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 02:47:00 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:47:00 +0000
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
References: <20010228181107.A21080@alcove.wittsend.com> <200103010042.f210gCm12331@artifact.psychedelic.net> <200103010459.XAA15092@divert.sendon.net>
Message-ID: <3A9E28A4.3D1B09A5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Steve Thompson wrote:
> 
> Quoting Eric Cordian (emc at artifact.psychedelic.net):
> > In a criminal case, the plaintiff is the state, not the wronged
> > individual.
> 
> ... which is something that I've found odd.  Up here in the Great
> White North, it's the Queen who is the nominal victim of transgressions of the
> criminal code. 

Same here back in Blighty - or rather the "crown" or the "throne" or the
monarchy in general - which is not actually an individual person in our
wonderfully fictional law  but a perpetual corporation which at any one
time has only one member. The king dies, the crown doesn't. Which is why
(in the UK) crown copyright doesn't end, and why (in most places)
monarchs call themselves "we" when on the job.

> Of what philosophical benefit is the transfer of `harm' from
> the actual victim of a crime to another entity?  Of course, it doesn't change
> the nature of the offence but it does provides a flesh-and-blood victim-object
> for offences where there would otherwise be none.  Is it merely a
> philosophical holdover from a time when the visible head of state was
> considered `superhuman'?

Not really I think. If I remember correctly the historical origins of
this in England were in the middle ages when the central monarchy was
trying to get power from the localities. There was a general move of
authority from local courts and private justice, first to the common law
courts  (which used one law over the whole country, and were the King's
courts, even though working with law based on the traditional laws of
England), then to Equity (where the crown-appointed judges were able to
make er, sorry, reinterpret, law) then to statute law (where Parliament
made it up as it went along).

So it was more about power politics than philosophical benefit.

Though I bet that if you asked a late mediaeval lawyer about the
philosophy they'd tell you that it is because a crime is something that
threatens society. Murder, theft, rape, arson, treason & all those
things are threats to us all and should be pursued by the courts even if
victims don't wish to follow them up. Some other, more private wrongs
(lying, cheating, adultery, defamation, unauthorised copying) just lie
between the people concerned because they aren't a danger to the
solidarity of society as a whole.

And I guess that if you asked an early mediaeval lawyer they'd have said
that the reason we need the King's law at all is to limit revenge - that
without it society would collapse into vendetta.

Ken




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Mar  1 07:58:39 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:58:39 -0500
Subject: "Republic.com"
Message-ID: <v04220805b6c422043654@[198.4.94.214]>



From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 03:00:15 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:00:15 +0000
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not
         Facts
References: <001a01c0a202$435126c0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <3A9E2BBF.60C5FD95@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

[...]

> Hence the anecdotes such as QWERTY, Betamax are attacked as if they were the
> best evidence, the sole evidence even for network effects. This is
> historical revisionism in the service of dogmatic ideology.
> 
> Positive feedback exists, get over it.

Surely the classic network effect is railway gauge? 

And about as hard to deny as the sun rising in the east.

Ken




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 03:02:06 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:02:06 +0000
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  
         NotFacts
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>
Message-ID: <3A9E2C2E.D20BF18@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Reese wrote:


> I don't think Godwin would agree.  Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet
> named after Mike Godwin (godwin at eff.org) concerning Usenet "discussions".
> It reads, according to the Jargon File: As a Usenet discussion grows longer,
> the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.


Of course, as any text grows longer the probability that it contains any
other text approaches one... just more or less slowly.  Godwin's law
needs some quantification.

Ken




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 03:02:22 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:02:22 +0000
Subject: Why Wired is tired
References: <3A96D907.57035CCC@dev.tivoli.com> <20010228182723.D25964@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3A9E2C3E.4BBF27F3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> He's wrong;

Rosenblatt or Valovic?

> you're (not surprisingly) wrong.
 
> Wired, the magazine, is no longer what it once was.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 03:41:27PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > http://www.sunworld.com/unixinsideronline/swol-02-2001/swol-0202-bookshelf.html
> > --
> >    The Laws of Serendipity:
> >
> >    1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
> >       for something.
> >
> >    2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
> >       first be engaged in making an inferior one.
> >
> >    Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
> >    James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
> >    Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062
> >




From berezina at nihidyll.com  Thu Mar  1 08:04:31 2001
From: berezina at nihidyll.com (Paul Spirito)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:04:31 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker
 ("network externality")
In-Reply-To: <v04220800b6c3f9b3bb3d@[198.4.94.231]>
References: <v04220800b6c3f9b3bb3d@[198.4.94.231]>
Message-ID: <fvqs9t0c9a6ifc2d3srfh9a0oca5svi8i5@4ax.com>


David Theroux <DTheroux at independent.org> wrote:

> If you knew anything about the academic debate over "path dependence" 
> ("network externality") theory you would know that the work by our 
> research fellows, Stan Liebowitz and Stephen Margolis, has been 
> appearing in the leading, scholarly, peer-reviewed, economics 
> journals for the past ten years.  They have conclusively shown that 
> "network externality" theory has absolutely no empirical evidence. 
> And, no economists or any others have been able to show any errors in 
> the devastating Liebowitz/Margolis analysis.  Indeed, hundreds 
> academic economists have signed our Open Letter agreeing with this 
> analysis.

Not an argument, of course -- also, would you be more specific? You
appear to resemble remarks made by Paul Krugman in Slate a few years
back:

http://slate.msn.com/Dismal/96-08-15/Dismal.asp

       So why does the supply-side idea keep on resurfacing?
       Probably because of two key attributes that it shares with
       certain other doctrines, like belief in the gold standard:
       It appeals to the prejudices of extremely rich men, and it
       offers self-esteem to the intellectually insecure.
       
       The support of rich men is not a small matter. Despite its
       centrality to political debate, economic research is a very
       low-budget affair. The entire annual economics budget at the
       National Science foundation is less than $20 million. What
       this means is that even a handful of wealthy cranks can
       support an impressive-looking array of think tanks, research
       institutes, foundations, and so on devoted to promoting an
       economic doctrine they like. (The role of a few key funders,
       like the Coors and Olin Foundations, in building an
       intellectual facade for late 20th-century conservatism is a
       story that somebody needs to write.) The economists these
       institutions can attract are not exactly the best and the
       brightest. Supply-side troubadour Jude Wanniski has lately
       been reduced to employing followers of Lyndon LaRouche. But
       who needs brilliant, or even competent, researchers when you
       already know all the answers?

> (For 
> your information, it was the acclaimed, New Left historian Gabriel 
> Kolko who first showed how antitrust has been used repeatedly for 
> corporatist purposes since its initial adoption.)

Why should this impress us? Do you always break things down into left &
right? Ralph Nader & Pat Buchanan can't /both/ be wrong about trade, can
they? Oh, my.

> you apparently prefer to defend the blatant campaign 
> for corporate welfare (antitrust protectionism),

Fyi, Phill has opposed the MS antitrust case.

> Incidentally, so you do not continue to embarrass yourself, I would 
> suggest you first learn the difference between the terms, "network 
> effects" and "network externalities."  Reading the book, WINNERS, 
> LOSERS & MICROSOFT, would make an excellent way to do so.

Assuming we're suspicious of spending our money & our time, would you
provide links to articles?

Thanks,
Paul




From djb at gci.net  Thu Mar  1 13:14:42 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 12:14:42 -0900
Subject: Decentralized Markets
References: <3A9E7C38.14811C84@mindspring.com> <a05010417b6c43527999e@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <005901c0a294$a2440480$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


Tim May wrote:

> There really is no long-term need for an Ebay to be a "market maker."
> The future will bring more options for online auctions, for new
> pricing mechanisms.
>
> (Personally, I can see systems like Mojo recasting themselves as
> alternatives to Ebay. I don't know if Jim and his friends are
> thinking along these lines, though.)

I have been giving a lot of thought to auction protocols that would work
using signed encrypted packets distributed by a Gnutella-style peer-to-peer
network.  Tim is absolutely right -- the world needs an online marketplace
that does not have a central administrative or corporate point of attack --
or rather, the world is getting one whether it needs it or not.

So far, all of the ideas I have come up would require a relatively stable
system for recording reputation capital and associating it with nyms.  I
haven't figured out a protocol for doing THAT without it becoming a point of
attack for the decentralized market system.

It would help a lot if someone figured out a way to set up an Ebay style
feedback system for nyms that received significant usage from many different
groups of traders of a type not readily susceptible of being demonized.
Then a decentralized auction system could outsource that function without
the function becoming a  vulnerable attack point.

-- Daniel




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar  1 10:53:23 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:53:23 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Technology - Groups seek to protect anonymous Net speech - 
 March 1, 2001
Message-ID: <3A9E9AA3.ABA6BDE9@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/03/01/protect.speech.idg/index.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From berezina at nihidyll.com  Thu Mar  1 10:10:31 2001
From: berezina at nihidyll.com (Paul Spirito)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:10:31 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip
 Hallam-Baker("network  externality")
In-Reply-To: <3A9E89AD.3CA4931C@mrlizard.com>
References: <v04220800b6c3f9b3bb3d@[198.4.94.231]>
 <fvqs9t0c9a6ifc2d3srfh9a0oca5svi8i5@4ax.com> <3A9E89AD.3CA4931C@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <4s3t9tsej1vmttorq2bpdlir2k9pbnd75g@4ax.com>


On Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:41:01 -0800,
   lizard <lizard at mrlizard.com> wrote:

> Paul Spirito wrote:
> > 
> 
> > Why should this impress us? Do you always break things down into left &
> > right? Ralph Nader & Pat Buchanan can't /both/ be wrong about trade, can
> > they? Oh, my.
> > 
> Since they both have the SAME opinion (crypto-fascist uber-nationalism
> disguised as populism) why not?

My point is that they ARE both wrong about trade despite 

a) being associated with opposite poles of the political spectrum; &
b) largely agreeing with each other.

That is, citing the agreement of leftists is no proof a conservative is
correct.

Paul




From ServiceAdmin at globalzon.com  Thu Mar  1 14:03:19 2001
From: ServiceAdmin at globalzon.com (Globalzon Financial Products)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:03:19 -0800
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?VmVyc2FDaGVjayAyMDAxIHNhdmluZ3Mh?=
Message-ID: <200103012203.OAA10326@toad.com>

If you cannot view this message, please visit
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From sales at estainless.net  Thu Mar  1 11:18:17 2001
From: sales at estainless.net (sales at estainless.net)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:18:17 -0500
Subject: 15-5ph OFFER... Make offer!!!!
Message-ID: <7wsfhyqakuvp04hn4u.65tl8j2@mickdaddys.com>

Click here to be removed from our weekly offering.....     http://buyscraponline.com/bluemelon/maillist.php

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416
136" X 3" DIA
124" X 3" DIA

15CR
72"  X 2" X 3"  RECT

www.buystainlessonline.com

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From nmacleod at mitre.org  Thu Mar  1 11:37:59 2001
From: nmacleod at mitre.org (Nancy A. MacLeod)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:37:59 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: CIA intelligence info]
Message-ID: <3A9EA517.11A920F3@mitre.org>

Is this something we can order for Rich?   using the same project
number?

Nancy
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From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Mar  1 06:39:15 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:39:15 +0100
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  
 NotFacts
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com> <3A9E2C2E.D20BF18@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3A9E5F13.B97FBF36@ricardo.de>


Ken Brown wrote:
> > I don't think Godwin would agree.  Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet
> > named after Mike Godwin (godwin at eff.org) concerning Usenet "discussions".
> > It reads, according to the Jargon File: As a Usenet discussion grows longer,
> > the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
> 
> Of course, as any text grows longer the probability that it contains any
> other text approaches one... just more or less slowly.  Godwin's law
> needs some quantification.

don't think so. it's a good observation, and most likely better than
yours unless we talk about infinities. there are libraries full of books
where neither nazis or hitler are even mentioned. yet usenet debates DO
converge on those topics with surprising pace. most likely a
psychological thing - the search for a recent, extreme and well-known
example or counter-example to your point. in the middle ages, one
would've used witchcraft and satan instead.




From gmo at mitre.org  Thu Mar  1 13:14:58 2001
From: gmo at mitre.org (Gerry O'Mahony)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:14:58 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: CIA intelligence info]]
Message-ID: <3A9EBBD2.3EE181C4@mitre.org>

Hi, I was wondering if you could help me out.  I need to order the
consumer's guide to intelligence if it's still available.  The link
below is not working.  Do you have any information on the consumer's
guide?
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From gbroiles at netbox.com  Thu Mar  1 16:32:40 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:32:40 -0800
Subject: Decentralized Markets
In-Reply-To: <a05010417b6c43527999e@[207.111.241.61]>
References: <3A9E7C38.14811C84@mindspring.com>
  <3A9E7C38.14811C84@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301162643.00a6e760@pop.well.com>


At 09:46 AM 3/1/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>Is it all hopeless? Are we destined to see a world of a few corporations 
>like Yahoo and Ebay and Amazon being choke points for any tinhorn dictator 
>threatening to sue them and arrest their employees?
>
>The answer is, of course, decentralized networks, decentralized markets.
>
>Gnutella, Open Napster, Freenet, Mojo Nation, Cypherpunks-style remailers. 
>(Some of these still have elements of centralized control. But the 
>centralized control and corporate points of attack may someday be 
>discarded as unnecessary, pace the discussions we've had of "everyone a 
>mint" in digital money systems.)
>
>The Cypherpunks future lies with these decentralized systems. Obvious, but 
>true.

This is a reasonable description of my current project - I gave a 
presentation in it at the O'Reilly
P2P conference, slides are at 
<ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/conference/p2p2001/1178/broiles_1178.sdd>.

>Centralized control is a more general problem than just "men with guns" 
>controlling others. Centralized control is also a target for other 
>centralized controllers. Ebay and Yahoo are finding this out in a big way.
>
>Let a billion buyers and sellers bloom.

Exactly. Control freaks and lazy people hoping to exploit designed-in 
architectural weaknesses or choke points in commerce systems will find 
themselves hoisted on their own petards, like Napster and Ebay.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at netbox.com
"Organized crime is the price we pay for organization." -- Raymond Chandler




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar  1 15:32:05 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:32:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech - polycentric
In-Reply-To: <a05010407b6c25fad4c3c@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010301172427.5925j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Polycentric law is still with us, of course. One hundred or more 
> nations, law of the seas, the UCC, etc. Anarchy is the norm in most 
> parts of our lives.

Polycentric law is not anarchy. The fact that something is unregulated
does not equate to anarchy either. Polycentric law is clearly not
equivalent to unregulated either. For each center to communicate and
cooperate there MUST be agreements (ie tests of faith and intent) between
the factions. Those agreements must, in a large part at least, follow the
tenets and beliefs of each party. If there is too disparate a difference
between the cultures then no cooperation is really possible. Anarchy is the 
denial of regulation, not the lack of same. Randomness does not equal
anarchy.

Most people (actually most life) live lives where one day looks pretty
much like the next. Anarchy is not a norm anywhere (ie animal societies or
even say a rain forest as an example of a multi-dependent ecology) except
in human society. Why? Because there's no possibility for a 'leader' to
develop in the first place.

Anarchy is a function of human psychology, not some axiomatic aspect of
nature. It's a rejection of 'community' in a real sense (consider what
happens to a wolf that breaks the pack code).

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------






From decoy at iki.fi  Thu Mar  1 07:35:27 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:35:27 +0200 (EET)
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <a0501040fb6c3301442dc@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103011733250.18386-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >


On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

>The ADA does not require writers, whether lawyers or novelists or
>whatever, to write their material in ways that the blind can read,
>that retarded persons can understand, or that the Java-less can
>process.

Nevertheless it would be good practice for an organization such as the ABA,
with close governmental ties and a bunch of bucks to be earned from the ADA
to make their site accessible. Not doing that is sheer stupidity.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From decoy at iki.fi  Thu Mar  1 07:35:27 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:35:27 +0200 (EET)
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <a0501040fb6c3301442dc@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103011733250.18386-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

>The ADA does not require writers, whether lawyers or novelists or
>whatever, to write their material in ways that the blind can read,
>that retarded persons can understand, or that the Java-less can
>process.

Nevertheless it would be good practice for an organization such as the ABA,
with close governmental ties and a bunch of bucks to be earned from the ADA
to make their site accessible. Not doing that is sheer stupidity.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From atek3 at gmx.net  Thu Mar  1 17:37:57 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:37:57 -0800
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010301175325.5925l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <008001c0a2b9$6dcd6280$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


the nazi's were using silver instead of platinum in their WWII experimental
jets, and some jet packs use H2O2 and silver as their power source.  and
given the difference in price, silver is a bargain.

but i think your main problem would be H2O2.  The stuff used in rockets is
100%, in english we call it an explosive oxidizer.  A spill of 35% H2O2 will
bleach your skin faster than you can say fuck, 100% is just nuts.
Producing it is a bitch too.  This isn't ur average fermentation of ethanol.
to make h2o2 you have to aquire a few questionable chemicals, such as
2-pentyl-anthraquinone.  Not to mention you need pure hydrogen and oxygen.
Also there dangers in raising the concentration from working 40% to
dangerous but useful 100%.

more on this later
atek3
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Choate" <ravage at ssz.com>
To: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 4:16 PM
Subject: CDR: Re: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'


>
> On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, An Metet wrote:
>
> > [Sorry about the name. "Pirate" satellites don't sound 'dangerous'
> > enough to need shooting down.]
>
> I liked it :)
>
> > Suppose can-sats WERE launched illegally, and then started broadcasting
> > <time synchronisation signals/OTP/other cypherpunk related> signals,
> > along with a spoken commentary by Radio Free North America (so Joe
> > Sixpack has an excuse when those nice detector van gentlemen knock on
> > his door and ask why he's listening to 128.0 FM)
>
> Ok, we get the technology down to say $10k per bird. That would at least
> be within the budget of most 'hobbyist' to come up with in a year.
>
> Technology wise, I'm real keen on the Hydrogen Peroxide Catalyst engines,
> especially Platinum catalyst. Platinum is problematic, rare & expensive.
> Say 1 out of 1,000 potential hobbyist can afford it. Hydrogen Peroxide
> can at least theoretically be done in a garage lab, so we'll leave this
> 1-1 for now.
>
> Miniaturize everything, since we've got chemical heat we can use Peltier's
> to make power. Venting expanded gas is going to be problematic unless
> we're symmetric. We could also use this same system for small orbital
> corrections.
>
> Whole thing will fit in 6in. OD pipe.
>
> > What could a the US Government do about the satellite, other than make
> > an example out of the miscreants who launched it?
>
> Simply outlaw any amateur rocketry, crack down on (like guns but w/o 2nd
> Amendment protection) non-commercial industrial sales of machine tools,
> etc.
>
> > Would they be able to physically shoot at it, jam its signal or burn
> > out its electronics from the ground or aircraft altitude?
>
> All of the above, as well as things like Brilliant Pebbles or
> laser/maser/micro-wave assaults. The USAF has had at least one successful
> launch from a high altitude interceptor via missile, it was back in the
> early/mid 80's (?: F-15).
>
> > Could someone put up enough disposable 'bandit-sats' (expecting to make
less
> > orbits  than Sputnik) over time to make it uneconomical to keep shooting
them
> > out of the sky?
>
> Brilliant Pebbles. All the 'Brilliant' class weapons are space based (sort
> of like 'Prarie' has to do with submarine ASW technology - eg Prarie
> Masker, a bubble diffuser.) There's also one that is like a giant shotgun,
> I don't remember it's designator :(
>
> > How easy would it be for the launch crew to stay ahead of ground based
> > forces?
>
> Who has the technology lead? Is the 'movement' organized or a bunch of
> chickens with their heads cut off? I'd think the chickens would be very
> hard to stop. The communications could be used to identify the others.
>
> The reality is that an army of 10,000 well armed individuals acting upon a
> common belief and with common goals, but acting completely independently
> and unknown to each other, would be next to impossible to stop. Even if
> the other army were 10 or more the size.
>
> > I'm guessing they could mount rockets one to two months ahead
> > of launch date and abandon the site, assuming the rockets don't need
> > constant attention.
>
> Yes, this sort of requirement pretty much limits it to either solids or
> hybrids, and the occassional exotic (ie H2O2/Pt). Note that storage of
> H2O2 reliably for more than a few weeks is probably prohibitive.
>
> > Would directional transmissions from ground to satellite be traceable
(and
> > would this depend on whether there are other birds in the part of the
sky I
> > want to send to)?
>
> It depends on the 'splatter' of the entenna you were transmitting with. If
> it has a lot of side lobes then probably. It would help to make it
> digital, spread sprectrum, encrypted, and burst. You'll need lots of power
> because the Can-Sat antenna can't be that big (it could be a long wire of
> course).
>
> > Would retrieval of a returned film capsule be possible before Air
> > Force helicopters descended on the landing site?
>
> How fast will it come down? What sort of warning window for the boys in
> blue? How far are they from the recovery site? Is this a new event or
> something they've seen before?
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  1 15:42:34 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:42:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Anarchy the norm?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010301174057.5925k-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Not.

Ancient North America: The Archeology of a Continent
B.M. Fagan
ISBN 0-500-05075-9

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  1 16:16:57 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:16:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <ad691c928d3f8eaa4123fa26e55cb36b@mixmaster.shinn.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010301175325.5925l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, An Metet wrote:

> [Sorry about the name. "Pirate" satellites don't sound 'dangerous' 
> enough to need shooting down.]

I liked it :)

> Suppose can-sats WERE launched illegally, and then started broadcasting 
> <time synchronisation signals/OTP/other cypherpunk related> signals, 
> along with a spoken commentary by Radio Free North America (so Joe 
> Sixpack has an excuse when those nice detector van gentlemen knock on 
> his door and ask why he's listening to 128.0 FM) 

Ok, we get the technology down to say $10k per bird. That would at least
be within the budget of most 'hobbyist' to come up with in a year.

Technology wise, I'm real keen on the Hydrogen Peroxide Catalyst engines, 
especially Platinum catalyst. Platinum is problematic, rare & expensive.
Say 1 out of 1,000 potential hobbyist can afford it. Hydrogen Peroxide
can at least theoretically be done in a garage lab, so we'll leave this
1-1 for now.

Miniaturize everything, since we've got chemical heat we can use Peltier's
to make power. Venting expanded gas is going to be problematic unless
we're symmetric. We could also use this same system for small orbital
corrections.

Whole thing will fit in 6in. OD pipe.

> What could a the US Government do about the satellite, other than make 
> an example out of the miscreants who launched it?

Simply outlaw any amateur rocketry, crack down on (like guns but w/o 2nd
Amendment protection) non-commercial industrial sales of machine tools,
etc.

> Would they be able to physically shoot at it, jam its signal or burn 
> out its electronics from the ground or aircraft altitude?

All of the above, as well as things like Brilliant Pebbles or
laser/maser/micro-wave assaults. The USAF has had at least one successful
launch from a high altitude interceptor via missile, it was back in the
early/mid 80's (?: F-15).

> Could someone put up enough disposable 'bandit-sats' (expecting to make less 
> orbits  than Sputnik) over time to make it uneconomical to keep shooting them 
> out of the sky?

Brilliant Pebbles. All the 'Brilliant' class weapons are space based (sort
of like 'Prarie' has to do with submarine ASW technology - eg Prarie
Masker, a bubble diffuser.) There's also one that is like a giant shotgun,
I don't remember it's designator :(

> How easy would it be for the launch crew to stay ahead of ground based 
> forces?

Who has the technology lead? Is the 'movement' organized or a bunch of
chickens with their heads cut off? I'd think the chickens would be very
hard to stop. The communications could be used to identify the others.

The reality is that an army of 10,000 well armed individuals acting upon a
common belief and with common goals, but acting completely independently
and unknown to each other, would be next to impossible to stop. Even if
the other army were 10 or more the size.

> I'm guessing they could mount rockets one to two months ahead 
> of launch date and abandon the site, assuming the rockets don't need 
> constant attention.

Yes, this sort of requirement pretty much limits it to either solids or
hybrids, and the occassional exotic (ie H2O2/Pt). Note that storage of
H2O2 reliably for more than a few weeks is probably prohibitive.

> Would directional transmissions from ground to satellite be traceable (and 
> would this depend on whether there are other birds in the part of the sky I 
> want to send to)?

It depends on the 'splatter' of the entenna you were transmitting with. If
it has a lot of side lobes then probably. It would help to make it
digital, spread sprectrum, encrypted, and burst. You'll need lots of power
because the Can-Sat antenna can't be that big (it could be a long wire of
course).

> Would retrieval of a returned film capsule be possible before Air 
> Force helicopters descended on the landing site?

How fast will it come down? What sort of warning window for the boys in
blue? How far are they from the recovery site? Is this a new event or
something they've seen before?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Mar  1 18:45:36 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:45:36 -0800
Subject: _Godwin_ on Godwin
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEIFCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEIFCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6c4b9bbf4af@[207.111.241.61]>


At 7:51 PM -0600 3/1/01, Aimee Farr wrote:
>Tim, I know Mike Godwin. I've e-mailed Mike Godwin. And, Tim, you're no Mike
>Godwin.
>

PLONK



--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 11:34:09 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:34:09 +0000
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip
         Hallam-Baker("networkexternality")
References: <v04220800b6c3f9b3bb3d@[198.4.94.231]> <3A9E88F4.5EFDAA9@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <3A9EA431.5B6F71E0@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Serious missed point alert for the Lizard  here!

lizard wrote:

> Apologies to Matt and the II, but from where I stand, the theory seems
> pretty sound. People buy thing because other people buy them. People are
> stupid. So it goes. Where Phill, the DOJ, and the rest of the
> left-liberals screw up is going from this obvious conclusion to
> "Therefore, government must point guns at people to make them make smart
> buying decisions." 

The point about the "network" effect is that it is suggested that there
is a natural monopoly in the supply of certain goods. When most other
people have one of two competing products then in makes sense to buy
that one for compatibility. So it isn't that *stupid* people buy
microsoft, but that *rational* people buy microsoft.  

This has nothing to do with the product or standard being "better", just
more popular. It could originate at random (the sums work like the sums
for genetic drift & founder effect  - maybe all economists should be
forced to read McArthur & Wilson. Or even better RA Fisher :-) but once
one way of doing things has taken the lead, there is a natural positive
feedback, and that one is likely to become the de facto standard. 
Bloody obvious really. Back in the 1980s when we all got our first word
processing software then we all got the ones our friends and colleagues
used so we could share floppies with them.  

It can be argued that MacOS was "better" than Windows (I'm not saying it
was, just that it can be argued that it was) or VMS "better" than Unix,
VM better than MVS, Token Ring better than ethernet, X400 better than
SMTP, ISO/OSI better than the ARPA Internet, Big-endian chips than
Little-endian, almost anything better than Novell Netware, paper tape
than punch cards,  Betamax than VHS, PAL than whatever the other kind of
TV is, driving on the left than driving on the right, broad gauge rail
than narrow gauge... what can't really be argued is that in  these
special cases once most existing users  go for one kind, new users ought
to go for the same one.  

If the defacto standard is owned by a private company, then there is a
monopoly. People who don't like monopolies may want to either liberate
the standard or confiscate the company.

That's what the argument is about - nothing to do with lefties thinking
people are stupid or educable.  Us lefties (& as far as I can tell I am
the only one contributing to cypherpunks at the moment) don't think
buying Microsoft products is stupid, or a matter of following fashion.
(We think that buying McDonald's is stupid but that's another point
entirely :-) 


> All of leftist 'thought' hinges on the highly dubious
> premise that you can MAKE people smarter, either by threatening to shoot
> them (Stalinist/Hitlerist socialism) or simply tying them up so they
> can't hurt themselves (modern 'liberal' socialism). Neither works.

Oh crap, you ignoramuses wouldn't recognise a Socialist if one but you
on the bum. Not that I'm offering.
 
> Capitalism tends to produce superior goods and services over time, but
> this isn't it's moral justification. If it was, I'd argue for a massive
> AI project designed to produce a super-computer which could use
> evolutionary algorithms to make optimized everything and control the
> factories.

You mean you would argue *against* the free market (which is what you
mean when you say "capitalism" - but don't worry, nearly all Americans
muddle them up so you are in good company)  and in favour of central
planning if you though the free market was morally better? Odd or what?

> The moral justification for capitalism is that it is based on
> individuals making their own decisions about how to spend the products
> of their own labor. If a lot of these decisions are illogical,
> short-sighted, emotionally biased, or self-destructive -- well, that's
> humanity.

No, that's the moral argument for free trade. It happens to be correct,
but that's beside the point.

> There isn't any New Socialist Man on the horizon, so we are
> much better off letting stupid people spend their OWN money on stupid
> things, rather than turning 'the means of production' over to these
> morons.

Who cares what the stupid people want to buy? Anti-trust laws are to
stop clever people buying what they want to buy.
 
> Want to know what happens when 'the people control the means of
> production'? Picture no art but painings of Elvis on velvet -- forever.

Prat.
 
> Is Microsoft on top because of stupid human buying patterns as opposed
> to superior software? Yeah, probably.

Much more likely it is just a random event. Someone had to be top of the
pile & whoever it was was likely to clean up. Actually MS still isn't
the largest computer company in the world - I think Intel, Cisco & IBM
(still) have more turnover. MS is just the most profitable because
software is almost free to distribute. 

> What should the government do
> about this? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

You may be right but if you are you don't seem to realise why. Tell me,
is ignorance bliss?

Ken




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 17:51:09 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:51:09 -0600
Subject: _Godwin_ on Godwin
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010301072808.01e92130@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEIFCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Tim, I know Mike Godwin. I've e-mailed Mike Godwin. And, Tim, you're no Mike
Godwin.

;-) Aimee

Somebody said:
 > I went to groups.google.com and did a search for usenet posts using
 > the word "nazi" http://groups.google.com/groups?q=nazi
 >
 > Every single hit among the first page of hits was an appropriate and
 > relevant use of the word nazi,

>>>>>>This was incorrect:  Eight of the first ten posts were appropriate
uses of
>>>>>>the word "nazi".  Two were inappropriate.
<snip>

FWD: --------

Even if 99 percent of all references to Nazis on the Internet were
appropriate and in-context, that would not prove anything, one way or
the other, as far as Godwin's Law is concerned -- anyone who says
Feel free to quote me on this.

Moreover, the statistical truth of Godwin's Law is beside the point,
which is to alert readers and writers to invidious comparisons, and
to the need to remember the gravity of what the Nazis did.

<snippage>


--Mike

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I speak the password primeval .... I give the sign of democracy ...."
            --Walt Whitman
Mike Godwin can be reached by phone at 202-637-9800
His book, CYBER RIGHTS, can be ordered at
	http://www.panix.com/~mnemonic .
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  1 18:32:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 20:32:16 -0600
Subject: Chemical of the Week -- Ozone
Message-ID: <3A9F0630.E3E47AE1@ssz.com>


http://www.scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/ozone/ozone.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  1 18:34:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:34:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <008001c0a2b9$6dcd6280$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010301201334.5925p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, atek3 wrote:

> the nazi's were using silver instead of platinum in their WWII experimental
> jets, and some jet packs use H2O2 and silver as their power source.  and
> given the difference in price, silver is a bargain.

<shrug>
 
> but i think your main problem would be H2O2.  The stuff used in rockets is
> 100%, in english we call it an explosive oxidizer.  A spill of 35% H2O2 will
> bleach your skin faster than you can say fuck, 100% is just nuts.
> Producing it is a bitch too.  This isn't ur average fermentation of ethanol.
> to make h2o2 you have to aquire a few questionable chemicals, such as
> 2-pentyl-anthraquinone.  Not to mention you need pure hydrogen and oxygen.
> Also there dangers in raising the concentration from working 40% to
> dangerous but useful 100%.

Yep, it's not something for kiddies, old ladies, or the weak of heart.
It's corrosiveness (not to mention build of O2 as 2H202 breaks down into
02 + 2H20) can be problematic. Consider the reaction of say regular
mechanic rags and diesel and some grades of grease under enhanced O2
conditions. It's the reason I stated a few weeks was the maximum 'hold
time'. After that metals, plastics, rubbers, etc. start to come apart.

Actually you can make H2O2 using electricity also. It's a natural 
byproduct of the ionization of saturated air by lightning. Lab setups
could be built using Tesla types of technology. You also get a lot of
ozone. I don't know if anyone has ever worked with liquid ozone as an
oxidizer (hmmm????).

I'd probably use a more conventional, perhaps surplus, airframe as the
booster.

Of course another alternative is Liquid Oxygen and Gasoline/Diesel.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mhw at wittsend.com  Thu Mar  1 19:15:00 2001
From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:15:00 -0500
Subject: Chemical of the Week -- Ozone
In-Reply-To: <3A9F0630.E3E47AE1@ssz.com>; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 08:32:16PM -0600
References: <3A9F0630.E3E47AE1@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010301221500.A2457@alcove.wittsend.com>


On Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 08:32:16PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> http://www.scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/ozone/ozone.html

	Interesting!

	I just installed an Ozone generator on our 30,000 gallon in-ground
pool.  The Ozone generator (a unit based on high-vacuum UV lamps rather than
the electric discharge arc mentioned in the article) in combination with a
silver/copper ion injector should virtually eliminate our use of halogen
oxidizers (chlorine shock) and halogen sanitizers (bromine).

	Ozone is one of those schizophrenic substances.  In the upper
atmosphere it's vital to all life on the planet.  At ground level it's
a major contributor to smog.  In water treatment, it's just now coming
into it's own as beating the bejesus out of chlorine in sanitizing
water (it kills crytpo-sporidium (sp?) where chlorine is ineffective)
and it's a way for pool owners to eliminate use of ozone destroying
halogens.

	Almost surreal.  Ozone helps eliminate ozone destroyers and
is an incredible oxidizer (well, duh!) and sanitiser and helps eliminate
halogen polution while it's a smog contributor itself.  Life's LITTLE
ironies.  :-)

> -- 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw at WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (678) 463-0932   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  1 20:15:28 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 22:15:28 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | New Kernel Security Features In 2.4 Explained
Message-ID: <3A9F1E60.F4ED4E84@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/01/2314212.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Thu Mar  1 21:39:33 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 00:39:33 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker ("network externality")
In-Reply-To: <v04220800b6c3f9b3bb3d@[198.4.94.231]>
Message-ID: <002c01c0a2db$29468980$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


Mathew,

	Are you so ludicrously insecure that you have to resort to publishing put
downs from private email?

	I called Theroux's institute a crank tank in public. If he could support
his claims he would have made his reply public.

	The 'open letter' Theroux refers to is not in support of the Margolis crank
book as he claims, it is in support of Microsoft - a very different matter.

	The rhetoricaln tactics are so close to those of the IHR, where is Barry
Shien when you need him? The claim 'if you disagree with me it can only be
because you are stupid'.

	Paul Krugman can explain very complex economic theories to a lay audience
in the NYT. I have several degrees including a Doctorate in Nuclear physics.
If Theroux cannot justify the claims he makes except by reference to subject
authority then he is full of it.

	What this is really about is the political claim that economists have an
expert mystical power that only they can understand that gives them and only
them the ability to comment on political affairs, and that to ask them to
ustify their ludicrous and contradictory claims is to show oneself to be a
fool. Sounds like a couple of tailros who once worked for a certain emperor.

		Phill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> [mailto:owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu]On Behalf Of Matthew
> Gaylor
> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 8:43 AM
> To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net;
> CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com
> Cc: 'Colin A. Reed'; Ken Brown
> Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker
> ("network externality")
>
>
> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:19:12 -0800
> To: "Phillip Hallam-Baker" <hallam at ai.mit.edu>
> From: David Theroux <DTheroux at independent.org>
> Subject: RE: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On
> Flawed Theory, Not Facts
> Cc: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
>
> Dear Mr. Hallam-Baker,
>
> If you knew anything about the academic debate over "path dependence"
> ("network externality") theory you would know that the work by our
> research fellows, Stan Liebowitz and Stephen Margolis, has been
> appearing in the leading, scholarly, peer-reviewed, economics
> journals for the past ten years.  They have conclusively shown that
> "network externality" theory has absolutely no empirical evidence.
> And, no economists or any others have been able to show any errors in
> the devastating Liebowitz/Margolis analysis.  Indeed, hundreds
> academic economists have signed our Open Letter agreeing with this
> analysis.
>
> As a belief system without any scientific evidence and with people
> such as yourself who accept this urban legend without proof, "path
> dependence" is a house of cards that is being used to advance the
> corporate welfare ambitions of various major business and government
> interests.  In so doing, the Microsoft case has nothing to do with
> consumer welfare and everything to do with corporate welfare.  (For
> your information, it was the acclaimed, New Left historian Gabriel
> Kolko who first showed how antitrust has been used repeatedly for
> corporatist purposes since its initial adoption.)
>
> So, since you have obviously not even seen the Liebowitz/Margolis
> book, WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT: Competition and Antitrust in High
> Technology, and you apparently prefer to defend the blatant campaign
> for corporate welfare (antitrust protectionism), who indeed is the
> crank and right-winger here?
>
> Incidentally, so you do not continue to embarrass yourself, I would
> suggest you first learn the difference between the terms, "network
> effects" and "network externalities."  Reading the book, WINNERS,
> LOSERS & MICROSOFT, would make an excellent way to do so.
>
> David J. Theroux
> Founder and President
> The Independent Institute
> 100 Swan Way
> Oakland, CA 94621-1428
> 510-632-1366 Phone
> 510-568-6040 Fax
> DTheroux at independent.org
> http://www.independent.org
>
> >>  Microsoft won because of superior reviews? Come on, how
> stupid do you
> >>  think we are?  So if a company pays for glowing reviews
> that would be
> >>  okay?
> >
> >Matthew's argument is that 'network effects' do not exist, based on a
> >tendentious piece of propaganda pushed by a right wing crank
> tank. The crank
> >tank is attempting to proove that the free market is
> perfect, unsullied by
> >the possibility of monopoly that obviously ignorant writers
> such as Adam
> >Smith wrote at great length about.
> >
> >Hence the anecdotes such as QWERTY, Betamax are attacked as
> if they were the
> >best evidence, the sole evidence even for network effects. This is
> >historical revisionism in the service of dogmatic ideology.
> >
> >Positive feedback exists, get over it.
> >
> >>Obviously they have never tried to sell a product.  It's very
> >>  dificult to get consideration such that you could prove
> the technical
> >>  merits when there is a large existing supplier.
> >
> >That is only a weak network effect. People buy from Amazon
> because they have
> >a well known brand name, have established a customer
> reputation etc. But
> >there is no intrinsic advantage buying from a large online
> bookseller than a
> >medium sized one.
> >
> >There is a big advantage having a VHS video over Betamax
> however. If you
> >have VHS you can rent movies from stores, you can send tapes
> to friends who
> >have equipment to play it. The fact that a modern day VHS recorder is
> >technicaly superior to any Betamax machine made is
> irrelevant. At the time
> >the standard was set Sony and Betamax had the clearly
> superior technology.
> >
> >
> >A network effect exists when there is an intrinsic advantage
> to join the
> >bigger network. Operating systems have been understood to have strong
> >network effects since the 1950s. My company only supports
> one version of
> >UNIX for certain products because the cost of QA on each O/S
> variant is
> >significant. If we were choosing the technically best O/S
> platform we would
> >probably look at of the stripped down, hardened BSD
> variants, but we choose
> >the platform that most of our customers are already familliar with -
> >Solaris.
> >
> >When I wrote video-games for a living I wrote for the
> Sinclair ZX Spectrum
> >with a market of several million users, not the vastly more
> sophisticated
> >BBC computer - even though the spectrums would die after
> about 100 hours use
> >and need replacement. I would typically replace a spectrum
> three or four
> >times within the guarantee period. Writing a game for the
> bigger market gave
> >bigger returns. Customers bought the machines supported by
> the most games.
> >
> >
> >Network effects are the alpha and the omega of Internet
> business strategy.
> >
> >Ironically despite paying for the tendentious propaganda
> Microsoft appears
> >to be benefitting from the argument that network effects and
> 'tipping'
> >explain the emergence of a single operating system.
> >
> >I don't know if the DoJ should interpret recent events in
> Seatle as a divine
> >attempt to breakup Microsoft. If so it is really time for
> the DoJ to give up
> >since it evidently failed.
> >
> >		Phill
>
> --
> David J. Theroux
> Founder and President
> The Independent Institute
> 100 Swan Way
> Oakland, CA 94621-1428
> 510-632-1366 Phone
> 510-568-6040 Fax
> DTheroux at independent.org
> http://www.independent.org
>
>
> **************************************************************
> ************
> Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
> Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
> on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30
> messages per month)
> Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
> (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
> **************************************************************
> ************
>




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Thu Mar  1 22:20:41 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:20:41 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker ("network externality")
In-Reply-To: <fvqs9t0c9a6ifc2d3srfh9a0oca5svi8i5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c0a2e0$e8b194e0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>



> Fyi, Phill has opposed the MS antitrust case.

True, and I have been vindicated by recent events, since even divine power
has proven unable to breakup Microsoft - although to be fair to the DoJ it
must be pointed out that he felt the need to try.


It is pretty wierd that the crank tank thinks that people who disagree with
their reasoning must disagree with their conclusion, or for that matter that
people who agree with their conclusion must agree with their whacky
theories. The 'hundreds' of economists cited as backing the whacky theory
turn out to have signed up for an open letter to support Microsoft, not
quite the same thing at all.

Now it is entirely true that I have not examined the specific evidence cited
in the book, merely the tendentious press release being circulated. However,
the press release makes the claims and the only evidence supplied is on the
basis of the book. This sounds to me like reference to spurious authority.
Particularly since the 'independent institute' that publishes the book was
paid $100,000 by Microsoft in a transaction that most certainly did not
influence a single pardon.

Coupled with the bogus claim that 250 economists also deny the existence of
network effects that turns out to be 250 economists support Microsoft, it
seems fair to say that the press release does not cross the threshold of
credibility, even if the claim being made was not so far reaching and
revisionist.

The behavior of the director of the institute only further confirms the
impression.

	Phill




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Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 04:30:18 -0600
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Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 06:34:12 -0600
Subject: Does Size Matter?  67% of Women surveyed think so!
Message-ID: <200103021234.f22CYB311553@ak47.algebra.com>


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From wealthmaster at beer.com  Fri Mar  2 07:09:07 2001
From: wealthmaster at beer.com (wealthmaster)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 07:09:07
Subject: Going Fast! Free Software
Message-ID: <200103021311.FAA24125@cyberpass.net>


Just a quick note to let you know that I found an exciting business opportunity
on the Net and it runs virtually on autopilot.

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and then:

Press send/mail. mailto:
mailto:rightaway at post.com?subject=PleaseSendDetails


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This email is intended for people doing business on the Internet.
If we have reached you in error please accept our apologies.


Per the proposed H.R. 3113 Unsolicited Commercial Electronic Mail
Act of 2000, further transmissions to you by the sender may be
Stopped at NO COST to you by forwarding this e-mail to
mailto:platinum4t at yahoo.com? Subject=remove




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  2 05:22:39 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 07:22:39 -0600
Subject: The Register - Get ready to loose .org
Message-ID: <3A9F9E9F.CEF03161@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17299.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From teodore at teodore.co.id  Thu Mar  1 17:03:12 2001
From: teodore at teodore.co.id (tgi)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:03:12 +0700
Subject: teodore garmindo industri
Message-ID: <000901c0a2b4$aa891f20$1600a8c0@supervisor>

our company ( teodore garmindo industri ) has been producing knitted garment since 1994 ( pls find out our profile at www.teodore.co.id ).
until now we serves several main clothing dealers like UMBRO, REEBOK, Charles Vogelle, Fruit Of the loom etc.

for the aim of publication, can you help us to promote our website on some main portal sch as yahoo & webCrawler. because we always having problem to place our www there. 

as an info, we have been successfully place our www on Lycos. 

B. RGDS
TGI garment
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From aleph at alumni.caltech.edu  Fri Mar  2 09:08:19 2001
From: aleph at alumni.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:08:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker ("network externality")
In-Reply-To: <v04220806b6c572825a7a@[198.4.94.203]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010302085841.20322A-100000@alumnus>


So you admit then, that the material in question has no basis whatsoever 
on anything that could be considered by anyone to be "science" and is in 
effect merely a bottle of Doc Theroux's patent "free-market medicine", 
guaranteed to cure what ails you.  Because he says so.  Just don't come 
back tomorrow, 'cause he'll have moved on to the next town by then.  

On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

> At 12:26 AM -0500 3/2/01, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> >Theroux runs some Potemkin village crank tank pandering to the predjudices
> >of their narrow base of ultra rich supporters.
> 
> At 12:39 AM -0500 3/2/01, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> >I have several degrees including a Doctorate in Nuclear physics.
> >If Theroux cannot justify the claims he makes except by reference to subject
> >authority then he is full of it.
> 
> How does a bright guy like you get involved in so much name calling? 
> Might it not be possible for you to just stick to the ideas and leave 
> the immature behavior at home?   Remember when you libeled physicist 
> Laurence Godfrey, in a newsgroup, soc.culture.thai, first on January 
> 12, 1997, there again later, and subsequently on uk.legal.
> 
> Here's an article:
> 
> Excerpt NYT article 
> http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/yr/mo/biztech/articles/01britain.h 
> tml
> 
> "Mr. Godfrey's solicitor, Nick Braithwaite, did not return several 
> telephone calls today, and it was unclear exactly what the substance 
> of the remarks made against Mr. Godfrey was. He is no stranger to 
> libel actions. In 1994, a fellow physicist, Philip Hallam-Baker, 
> agreed to pay Mr. Godfrey an unspecified amount in damages after Mr. 
> Godfrey sued him for libel in connection with a number of postings 
> Mr. Hallam-Baker made on the Internet raising doubts about his 
> professional competence."
> 
> Regards,  Matt-
> 
> 
> **************************************************************************
> Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
> Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
> on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
> Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
> (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
> **************************************************************************
> 




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Fri Mar  2 09:26:58 2001
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (lizard)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 09:26:58 -0800
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker("network 
 externality")
References: <002c01c0a2db$29468980$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> <v04220806b6c572825a7a@[198.4.94.203]>
Message-ID: <3A9FD7E2.B1D4D060@mrlizard.com>


Yeah, but Godfrey is responsible for forcing a very
damaging-to-free-speech ruling down the throats of UK ISPs. Methinks he
deserveth what he gets. 

And to add more fuel to the fire -- Phill, a PhD in nuclear physics
makes you no more competant to understand *economics* than a PhD in
Medevial European History makes you competant to run a nuclear power
plant. You are one of the last people I'd expect to fall into the trap
of assuming 'brainz iz brainz' and that achievement in one field makes
you qualified to pontificate on others. (I, personally, have acheived
nothing in *any* field, hence, I am equally qualified to pontificate on
all fields.)




From freematt at coil.com  Fri Mar  2 08:13:15 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:13:15 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker
 ("network externality")
In-Reply-To: <002c01c0a2db$29468980$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <002c01c0a2db$29468980$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <v04220806b6c572825a7a@[198.4.94.203]>


At 12:26 AM -0500 3/2/01, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Theroux runs some Potemkin village crank tank pandering to the predjudices
>of their narrow base of ultra rich supporters.

At 12:39 AM -0500 3/2/01, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>I have several degrees including a Doctorate in Nuclear physics.
>If Theroux cannot justify the claims he makes except by reference to subject
>authority then he is full of it.

How does a bright guy like you get involved in so much name calling? 
Might it not be possible for you to just stick to the ideas and leave 
the immature behavior at home?   Remember when you libeled physicist 
Laurence Godfrey, in a newsgroup, soc.culture.thai, first on January 
12, 1997, there again later, and subsequently on uk.legal.

Here's an article:

Excerpt NYT article 
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/yr/mo/biztech/articles/01britain.h 
tml

"Mr. Godfrey's solicitor, Nick Braithwaite, did not return several 
telephone calls today, and it was unclear exactly what the substance 
of the remarks made against Mr. Godfrey was. He is no stranger to 
libel actions. In 1994, a fellow physicist, Philip Hallam-Baker, 
agreed to pay Mr. Godfrey an unspecified amount in damages after Mr. 
Godfrey sued him for libel in connection with a number of postings 
Mr. Hallam-Baker made on the Internet raising doubts about his 
professional competence."

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From spgweb_response at agilent.com  Fri Mar  2 11:12:04 2001
From: spgweb_response at agilent.com (spgweb_response at agilent.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:12:04 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Registration Confirmation
Message-ID: <200103021912.MAA04509@wesux010>


Welcome to the Agilent Technologies Semiconductor Products website! We would like to thank you for becoming a registered user. Our site is designed and created with you - the Engineer - in mind. As a registered user, you will be able to access the following services:
 
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From bear at sonic.net  Fri Mar  2 12:45:15 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:45:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Network crypto is not enough: One example of why.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021213330.280-100000@bolt.sonic.net>



A few days ago, someone mugged one of our tech writers outside her 
apartment building. 

She had a laptop computer that was company property, and which 
contained among other things, an application the company licenses 
to registered users at a quarter-million dollars a pop, in a 
release-candidate version that we're not going to be sending out 
to customers until it's been in testing and doc for another couple 
of weeks.  

And all the docs for it (up to that date), 
And a list of license keys corresponding to various configurations.
 
These license keys are decrypted by the software so it can find out  
what it's authorized to do on behalf of the user - of course the QA 
department and Documentation group need a wide variety of them -- 
including some that would sell to paying customers for upwards of 
a million dollars. 

So, there was a board meeting, and some board members and major 
investors waxed wroth.  Odds are, the drive got wiped within hours 
of being swiped.  Odds are, the laptop is sitting somewhere in a 
pawnshop and the damage to the company has been limited to the 
cost of a single laptop computer.  

But slightly longer odds have a much MUCH higher cost to the 
company: if the mugger realized what the hell he had in his hands, 
he could match my annual salary by selling it to one of our 
competitors.  If the mugger was hired in the first place by one 
of our competitors, then... that's not good either.  And of 
course, if he's willing to face a bit dicier risk profiles, and 
has criminal confederates inside some Fortune 500 companies, he
can track our sales and marketing force, and try to undercut 
us with pirate versions of our software and potentially cost us 
millions in sales. These are in order of decreasing probability, 
and the last, while only very remotely likely, is pretty disturbing.

And I was sitting there, listening to all the worst-case scenarios, 
and thinking, "Damn, I wish we had laptops with solidly encrypted 
hard drives."  Enter the key, boot the machine.  Wrong key, hard 
drive appears to be full of random garbage. Encryption handled in 
the BIOS.

The BIOS password protection is garbage for protecting hard drive 
contents - the hard drives are unencrypted and can just be popped 
out and stuck into a different laptop of the same model.

				Bear




From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Mar  2 10:11:02 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:11:02 -0500
Subject: AIMster using DCMA's own tactics against RIAA
Message-ID: <3A9FE236.EDEDED39@sunder.net>



http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42105,00.html

ROTFL!

<SNIP>

"Aimster encrypts everything that is moved around its network,
 including all files and directories. It is impossible for anyone outside
 the system to monitor the network without circumventing the
 security. Breaking the encryption is illegal under the DMCA because
 the network and its programming code are copyrighted."

<SNIP>

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Mar  2 04:23:36 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:23:36 +0100
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" OnFlawed Theory,   
 NotFacts
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
	 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
	 <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>
	 <3A9E2C2E.D20BF18@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <5.0.2.1.0.20010301072808.01e92130@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3A9F90C8.458519BD@ricardo.de>


"James A. Donald" wrote:
> You are full of shit.

what a glorious argument. I withdraw all my comments in light of these
incredible rhetoric powers.




From adam at cypherspace.org  Fri Mar  2 09:25:56 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:25:56 -0400
Subject: Decentralized Markets
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301162643.00a6e760@pop.well.com>; from Greg
  Broiles on Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 04:32:40PM -0800
References: <3A9E7C38.14811C84@mindspring.com>
  <3A9E7C38.14811C84@mindspring.com>
  <a05010417b6c43527999e@[207.111.241.61]>
  <5.0.2.1.2.20010301162643.00a6e760@pop.well.com>
Message-ID: <20010302132556.B5239@cypherpunks.ai>


Greg Broiles wrote:
> presentation in it at the O'Reilly
> P2P conference, slides are at 
> <ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/conference/p2p2001/1178/broiles_1178.sdd>.

What is a .sdd file netscape on linux doens't know what to do
with it.  Do you have the info in a more portable format?


Adam




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Mar  2 14:12:20 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:12:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <20010228140810.A7920@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021407400.5483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:

>So, this web page doesn't work without javascript.  I find that
>somewhat ironic, because you'd think that the ABA would be aware of
>the Americans With Disabilities act, which requires a reasonable
>accomodation; in this case that accomodation would be one less line of 
>html (the meta-equiv refresh line)

Sorry, but I don't understand.  What disability prevents you 
from using Javascript?  

I don't enable javascript for reasons having nothing to do with 
any disability.

				Ray





From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Fri Mar  2 12:14:46 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:14:46 -0600
Subject: _Godwin_ on Godwin
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6c4b9bbf4af@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEKBCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


> At 7:51 PM -0600 3/1/01, Aimee Farr wrote:
> >Tim, I know Mike Godwin. I've e-mailed Mike Godwin. And, Tim,
> you're no Mike
> >Godwin.
> >
>
> PLONK
>
>
>
> --Tim May

His words.

I admit it, I prevailed on him to rescue me from your affections. My plan
seems to have backfired, as he knew it would. I'm a chew toy.

-Aimee




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Mar  2 15:18:04 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:18:04 -0800
Subject: Network crypto is not enough: One example of why.
Message-ID: <3AA02A2C.4EAFA4DE@lsil.com>


>A few days ago, someone mugged one of our tech writers outside her 
>apartment building. 
>
>She had a laptop computer that was company property, and which 
>contained among other things, an application the company licenses 
>...
><yank>
>...
>The BIOS password protection is garbage for protecting hard drive 
>contents - the hard drives are unencrypted and can just be popped 
>out and stuck into a different laptop of the same model.
>
>                                Bear
>
An ancient and revered topic. If you start to pursue the paranoid trains
of thought that haunt the subject you'll see that you probably shouldn't
even have the key entered via the laptop's chipset if you really want
the disk to be useless when removed. Which points to the need for a lump
in the ribbon cable with a HW key + lengthy PIN.

Mike




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Mar  2 15:29:14 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 15:29:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <ad691c928d3f8eaa4123fa26e55cb36b@mixmaster.shinn.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021459380.5483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>


On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, An Metet wrote:

>Suppose can-sats WERE launched illegally, and then started broadcasting 
><time synchronisation signals/OTP/other cypherpunk related> signals, 
>along with a spoken commentary by Radio Free North America (so Joe 
>Sixpack has an excuse when those nice detector van gentlemen knock on 
>his door and ask why he's listening to 128.0 FM) 
>
>Would they be able to physically shoot at it, jam its signal or burn 
>out its electronics from the ground or aircraft altitude? 

Assuming the can-sat were in low earth orbit, yes, they could easily 
shoot it down.  The air force has a few extreme high-altitude craft 
that can launch long-range missiles.  These can actually reach the 
same altitude or nearly, as low-earth-orbit satellites.  

(They cannot reach low earth orbit; that would require them to be 
at that altitude but going much much faster.)

They can't launch a missile fast enough to get low earth orbit, 
either -- but in the final analysis, it doesn't really matter 
whether the satellite hits the missile or the missile hits the 
satellite.  

>Could someone 
>put up enough disposable 'bandit-sats' (expecting to make less orbits 
>than Sputnik) over time to make it uneconomical to keep shooting them 
>out of the sky?

if you're getting one bandit-sat per launch, then the answer is 
plainly no.  Because the missiles or planes don't have to reach 
orbital velocity at all, they are much cheaper to shoot down than 
to put up. 

However, if you get a thousand bandit-sats per launch, and they 
scatter all over the sky once they're up there, it becomes much 
more viable.  It could take weeks or months to shoot them all 
down, and since they wouldn't be clumped together you'd have to 
fly a separate mission for every one of them.  In that scenario 
they are cheaper to launch than to shoot down.  

But still, the launch costs would be a substantial fraction of 
the shootdown costs, and unless you can spend a substantial fraction 
of what the US government would be willing to spend on it, I think 
that's cold comfort at best.

If you go for higher orbits, we might get to see some of the 
stuff the "star wars" research paid for...  At the very least, I'm 
betting on a satellite with a laser which, given a few minutes at 
a hundred-kilometer range, could probably burn through a can-sat.  
Probably something faster than that.  Possibly a bunch of can-sats 
with "intercept and collide" or "get close and explode" missions. 


>Would directional transmissions from ground to 
>satellite be traceable (and would this depend on whether there are 
>other birds in the part of the sky I want to send to)?

depends on how tightly focused.  If you're using radio, you cannot 
focus that tightly, and yes your signal to the satellite can be 
traced.  If you're using laser, it would require them to have a 
satellite with some appropriate directional sensor within a few 
degrees of the satellite.  Hmm, as I think about it, unless your 
laser doesn't illuminate dust in the atmosphere, it might not 
require that much to detect it after all.

>Would retrieval of a returned film capsule be possible before Air 
>Force helicopters descended on the landing site?

Interesting question.  If the film capsule is tiny, nonmetallic, 
and contains no radio equipment, it might be possible for it 
not to show up on radar, in which case it's much less detectable 
than radio etc. 

				Bear




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Mar  2 13:58:34 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:58:34 -0500
Subject: Network crypto is not enough: One example of why.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021213330.280-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <200103022209.RAA17656@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


Ray,

Please tell the make and model of the laptop, where it 
was lifted and other details that would help a good
samaritan recognize it as what you say it is and has
in its innards.

No disinfo now. No risk insurance scamming, we've
been stung by that. Damn hi-value secret-rich laptops 
are a menace to the underworld and time wasters for
undercovers overloaded with a leak-ploy of the spooks 
copied by the thousands, when even pawnshops 
have signs about laptops "who you kiddin."

The dame chopped and shopped your secrets if 
they were that, copying spooks ploying a bonus
from likeminders with the same venal bosses eager
to steal when profits peter, copying the boss spooks
copying the leaders of the earth and heaven.

Yrs,

No. 38769






From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Mar  2 17:21:39 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:21:39 -0800
Subject: Network crypto is not enough: One example of why.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021213330.280-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010302172139.008d9370@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:45 PM 3/2/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>A few days ago, someone mugged one of our tech writers outside her 
>apartment building. 
>
>She had a laptop computer that was company property, and which 
>contained among other things, an application the company licenses 
>to registered users at a quarter-million dollars a pop, in a 
>release-candidate version that we're not going to be sending out 
>to customers until it's been in testing and doc for another couple 
>of weeks.  
>...

Mr. Bear, sorry to hear your company is so fsck'ed.  Excellent
post, BTW; exemplar.  But you don't need bios-level encryption; Scramdisk
or PGPdisk
are free, reliable, and would completely solve your multizillion dollar
worries.  Simply use all the space on the laptop as an encrypted drive,
and put all the tools and work directories there, so there's no way
to get around it.  Make it (future) corporate policy ---previously I bet you
wouldn't have been able to convince them, but now you can.  The next 'mugger'
might be the one you fear.



.......
Unbeknown to the latter, Marks had already cracked General de Gaulle's
private cypher 
in a spare moment on the lavatory. 

 






  







From adam at homeport.org  Fri Mar  2 14:26:46 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:26:46 -0500
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021407400.5483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <20010228140810.A7920@weathership.homeport.org> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021407400.5483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010302172646.A24167@weathership.homeport.org>


On Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:12:20PM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
| On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:
| 
| >So, this web page doesn't work without javascript.  I find that
| >somewhat ironic, because you'd think that the ABA would be aware of
| >the Americans With Disabilities act, which requires a reasonable
| >accomodation; in this case that accomodation would be one less line of 
| >html (the meta-equiv refresh line)
| 
| Sorry, but I don't understand.  What disability prevents you 
| from using Javascript?  

All the text-to-speech tools I've seen, which are very useful to the
blind, tend to barf when given javascript generated pages.  Not my
actual problem, but I think that theres a tremendous opportunity to
create an infrastructure which helps people with various problems, and 
I hate seeing bad design screw it up.

| I don't enable javascript for reasons having nothing to do with 
| any disability.
| 
| 				Ray
| 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From bear at sonic.net  Fri Mar  2 18:28:21 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:28:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Network crypto is not enough: One example of why.
In-Reply-To: <200103022209.RAA17656@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021814260.17918-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, John Young wrote:

>Ray,
>
>Please tell the make and model of the laptop, where it 
>was lifted and other details that would help a good
>samaritan recognize it as what you say it is and has
>in its innards.

It is a compaq armada m700, with 128M memory and 6G 
hard drive.  It got kiped in San Francisco, on the 
western edge of a neighborhood known as hunter's point.
It has already been reported to the appropriate police, 
but that's mainly pro forma; in the recovery of such 
items they are nearly useless.

The application is called "Neuroserver".  It exists in 
a full GUI development environment/compiler (NSAE) and 
a windows service (NSRE) with associated runtime admin 
tools. There's also a solaris version, but that wasn't 
on the machine she had. 

If you want to know more about the application, you can 
ask it about itself - go to http://www.nativeminds.com, 
turn on cookies and javascript, and follow the "talk 
to nicole" link. It won't understand you if you get too 
far outside its subject matter or use sentences too long 
for it to figure out, but that's par for the course for 
this moment in time. 

>The dame chopped and shopped your secrets if 
>they were that, copying spooks ploying a bonus
>from likeminders with the same venal bosses eager
>to steal when profits peter, copying the boss spooks
>copying the leaders of the earth and heaven.

That's an interesting collection of words.  Do you 
suppose it's a sentence?

			Bear




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Fri Mar  2 15:42:47 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:42:47 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker("network  externality")
In-Reply-To: <3A9FD7E2.B1D4D060@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <000601c0a372$7d1b1520$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


Why not read the judges rulling?

http://wood.ccta.gov.uk/courtser/judgements.nsf/054a30dbaca8b75e8025683c004e
82de/45de924a70f2270b802568690055b06c/$FILE/godfrey3.htm

A payment into court of a derisory sum is a standard tactical legal
maneuver. It does not involve any admission of liability.

David Theroux began name calling, specifically everyone who does not accept
his theory must do so out of ignorance.

Matthew's selective editing of my posts deliberately misrepresents my
argument. I simply stated that the following argument is bogus:

   1) I am an expert on X
   2) The subject matter of X is so complex that nobody who is not an expert
can
	legitimately comment on it
   3) Therefore all assertions I make in the field of X MUST be considered
true
   4) Therefore all assertions you make in the field of X MUST be considered
false

Theroux did not even attempt to justify his argument, he merely restated it
and claimed that anyone who disagrees with his is a complete fool.

I don't think that any field has the right to such defference. I can explain
my argument to a lay audience. Theroux either cannot or will not.

I suggest that in either case his argument MUST be rejected.

		Phill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lizard [mailto:lizard at mrlizard.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 12:27 PM
> To: Matthew Gaylor
> Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu;
> cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; Colin A. Reed; Ken Brown;
> CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com; David Theroux
> Subject: Re: Independent Institute Response To Phillip
> Hallam-Baker("network externality")
>
>
> Yeah, but Godfrey is responsible for forcing a very
> damaging-to-free-speech ruling down the throats of UK ISPs.
> Methinks he
> deserveth what he gets.
>
> And to add more fuel to the fire -- Phill, a PhD in nuclear physics
> makes you no more competant to understand *economics* than a PhD in
> Medevial European History makes you competant to run a nuclear power
> plant. You are one of the last people I'd expect to fall into the trap
> of assuming 'brainz iz brainz' and that achievement in one field makes
> you qualified to pontificate on others. (I, personally, have acheived
> nothing in *any* field, hence, I am equally qualified to
> pontificate on
> all fields.)
>




From registration at driveway.com  Fri Mar  2 20:43:58 2001
From: registration at driveway.com (registration at driveway.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 20:43:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Attention Driveway Users - Final Notice
Message-ID: <8902431.983594638916.JavaMail.root@app01>

Dear Driveway user,
FINAL NOTICE!
We want to remind you that as of March 5, 2001, Driveway will discontinue
all Driveway.com file sharing and storage services. We have appreciated your
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access them on our corporate web site:
<http://corp.driveway.com/corp/prod/terms.html>

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: cypherpunks
URL:  <http://www.driveway.com>

Sincerely,
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From responder at join4free.com  Fri Mar  2 13:21:10 2001
From: responder at join4free.com (Join4Free.Com)
Date: 2 Mar 2001 21:21:10 -0000
Subject: Welcome to Join4Free.Com
Message-ID: <20010302212110.11593.qmail@www.join4free.com>

Thank you for signing up to Join4Free.Com.

As a member of Join4Free.Com you will receive:

1)    Unlimited Access to Join4Free.Com and all sister sites.
2)    A daily adult newsletter with free photos and many other FREE & Special Offers.
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Note: If clicking on the link does not work, please copy and paste it into your web browser.

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IMPORTANT: Enter your username exactly as it appears above, it should be your complete email address.

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Sincerely,
Join4Free.Com Staff
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From reeza at flex.com  Fri Mar  2 23:22:45 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:22:45 -1000
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On
  Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <20010303012154.F3451@cluebot.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>
 <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010227231001.01f1fc98@shell11.ba.best.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010302212159.00cd7ab0@flex.com>


At 01:21 AM 3/3/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 07:47:08PM -1000, Reese wrote:
 >> I don't think Godwin would agree.  Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet
 >> named after Mike Godwin (godwin at eff.org) concerning Usenet "discussions".
 >
 >Mike has been gone from EFF for some years.

The page I pulled that bit of text is still on the web.  The Law remains valid.
*shrug*

Reese




From hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Fri Mar  2 19:30:20 2001
From: hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:30:20 -0600
Subject: eSurvellance via cable modem?
References: <3AA00AD0.2DBFA92D@aelea.com>
Message-ID: <3AA064FB.368D5DB4@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Doing a little research to be up to speed on cable...
PacketCable is interesting, as it talks about online gaming, telephony,
etc... but check out this part of the spec.


http://www.packetcable.com/specs/pkt-sp-esp-I01-991229.pdf





From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Fri Mar  2 22:13:12 2001
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:13:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed
 Theory, Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <20010303005032.A3265@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10103030005390.26070-100000@cavern.uark.edu>


I've got a terminology gap here.  Somewhere along the line I seem
to have conflated "network effects" with the notion that the 
maraginal cost of any addition to a network will typically be
less then the value to the network of that addition.  (Yes, 
"typically" is important, to avoid lumpiness quibbles, such
as "a whole new server is a whole new server for one added 
user," but let's don't quibble.)

It sounds like what we're talking about here involves what 
I would have thought of more as "network externalities."

Education, please?
MacN
On Sat, 3 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Phill gets it halfway right, or put another way is halfway wrong.
> 
> The question is not whether network effects exist or not; clearly they
> do in some form. Better questions include whether they have produced
> inferior results than "someone" desires, how strong they are, and whether
> state intervention is a good idea because of their alleged ill effects.
> 




From jannetfreebish67 at juno.com  Sat Mar  3 00:37:58 2001
From: jannetfreebish67 at juno.com (jannetfreebish67 at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:37:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fwd: Req: Cash Offer!!
Message-ID: <200103030837.AAA20599@toad.com>



Hey...Janet Here... We Haven't Talked In So Long!!  
How Have You Been?  Thought I would Forward you this email!

I usually delete these but I opened this one, like what I saw, 
and thought you would like to see this.

http://www.geocities.com/rush009900/

IF THE LINK IS NOT HIGHLIGHTED OR YOU CANNOT CLICK ON IT.
COPY AND PASTE IT IN YOUR BROWSER.












From hollyjacobsemail77 at excelonline.com  Sat Mar  3 00:45:47 2001
From: hollyjacobsemail77 at excelonline.com (hollyjacobsemail77 at excelonline.com)
Date: 3 Mar 2001 00:45:47 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Req: Cash Offer!!
Message-ID: <00e664545080331TESTNT@testnt>



hi there,
please take a moment to check out the newest cash offer.
cash is waiting for you!  Click Below 
Or copy the link and paste it in your browser

http://www.geocities.com/omega777799/




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 21:50:32 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:50:32 -0500
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory, Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <001a01c0a202$435126c0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>; from hallam@ai.mit.edu on Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 10:46:55PM -0500
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010227110823.22992A-100000@alumnus> <001a01c0a202$435126c0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <20010303005032.A3265@cluebot.com>


Phill gets it halfway right, or put another way is halfway wrong.

The question is not whether network effects exist or not; clearly they
do in some form. Better questions include whether they have produced
inferior results than "someone" desires, how strong they are, and whether
state intervention is a good idea because of their alleged ill effects.

Phill also is not aware that VHS has some advantages over betamax,
and also persists in crankishly calling libertarian groups "right
wing." He is clearly an example of a person who needs killing. (*)

-Declan

(*) Kidding! Kidding!


On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 10:46:55PM -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Microsoft won because of superior reviews? Come on, how stupid do you
> > think we are?  So if a company pays for glowing reviews that would be
> > okay?
> 
> Matthew's argument is that 'network effects' do not exist, based on a
> tendentious piece of propaganda pushed by a right wing crank tank. The crank
> tank is attempting to proove that the free market is perfect, unsullied by
> the possibility of monopoly that obviously ignorant writers such as Adam
> Smith wrote at great length about.
> 
> Hence the anecdotes such as QWERTY, Betamax are attacked as if they were the
> best evidence, the sole evidence even for network effects. This is
> historical revisionism in the service of dogmatic ideology.
> 
> Positive feedback exists, get over it.
> 
> 
> >Obviously they have never tried to sell a product.  It's very
> > dificult to get consideration such that you could prove the technical
> > merits when there is a large existing supplier.
> 
> That is only a weak network effect. People buy from Amazon because they have
> a well known brand name, have established a customer reputation etc. But
> there is no intrinsic advantage buying from a large online bookseller than a
> medium sized one.
> 
> There is a big advantage having a VHS video over Betamax however. If you
> have VHS you can rent movies from stores, you can send tapes to friends who
> have equipment to play it. The fact that a modern day VHS recorder is
> technicaly superior to any Betamax machine made is irrelevant. At the time
> the standard was set Sony and Betamax had the clearly superior technology.
> 
> 
> A network effect exists when there is an intrinsic advantage to join the
> bigger network. Operating systems have been understood to have strong
> network effects since the 1950s. My company only supports one version of
> UNIX for certain products because the cost of QA on each O/S variant is
> significant. If we were choosing the technically best O/S platform we would
> probably look at of the stripped down, hardened BSD variants, but we choose
> the platform that most of our customers are already familliar with -
> Solaris.
> 
> When I wrote video-games for a living I wrote for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum
> with a market of several million users, not the vastly more sophisticated
> BBC computer - even though the spectrums would die after about 100 hours use
> and need replacement. I would typically replace a spectrum three or four
> times within the guarantee period. Writing a game for the bigger market gave
> bigger returns. Customers bought the machines supported by the most games.
> 
> 
> Network effects are the alpha and the omega of Internet business strategy.
> 
> Ironically despite paying for the tendentious propaganda Microsoft appears
> to be benefitting from the argument that network effects and 'tipping'
> explain the emergence of a single operating system.
> 
> I don't know if the DoJ should interpret recent events in Seatle as a divine
> attempt to breakup Microsoft. If so it is really time for the DoJ to give up
> since it evidently failed.
> 
> 		Phill
> 




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 21:53:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:53:08 -0500
Subject: KYU-5, KG-84, KY-54 encryption devices
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPEEDKCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>; from
  aimee.farr@pobox.com on Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 12:06:58PM -0600
References: <a05010408b6c2d881af82@[207.111.241.61]>
  <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPEEDKCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20010303005308.B3265@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 12:06:58PM -0600, Aimee Farr wrote:
> I can't figure out if you're irked by amateurish elicitation tactics, or if
> you're trying to give me lessons in how to do better.

Or both?

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 21:55:10 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:55:10 -0500
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
In-Reply-To: <200102282214.RAA31392@divert.sendon.net>; from stevet@sendon.net on Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:55:00PM +0000
References: <200102281652.f1SGqXp11718@artifact.psychedelic.net> <20010228143802.B11659@alcove.wittsend.com> <200102282214.RAA31392@divert.sendon.net>
Message-ID: <20010303005510.C3265@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:55:00PM +0000, Steve Thompson wrote:
> 
> Quoting Michael H. Warfield (mhw at wittsend.com):
> > 	Charges dropped:
> > 
> > 	http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/02/28/recording.charge.01.ap/index.html
> 
> Ah.
> 
> Apparently, saner minds prevail.

But only after bad publicity and criminal charges being brought.

Not every case will get such bad publicity; some wacky charges
will stick and saner minds will *not* prevail.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 22:02:19 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:02:19 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker ("network externality")
In-Reply-To: <002e01c0a2e0$e8b194e0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>; from hallam@ai.mit.edu on Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 01:20:41AM -0500
References: <fvqs9t0c9a6ifc2d3srfh9a0oca5svi8i5@4ax.com> <002e01c0a2e0$e8b194e0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <20010303010219.D3265@cluebot.com>


One problem with Phill's analysis is that the L-M work stands on
its own, independent from the, well, Independent Institute.

Criticizing the group does not score points against the L-M work.

-Declan


On Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 01:20:41AM -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> > Fyi, Phill has opposed the MS antitrust case.
> 
> True, and I have been vindicated by recent events, since even divine power
> has proven unable to breakup Microsoft - although to be fair to the DoJ it
> must be pointed out that he felt the need to try.
> 
> 
> It is pretty wierd that the crank tank thinks that people who disagree with
> their reasoning must disagree with their conclusion, or for that matter that
> people who agree with their conclusion must agree with their whacky
> theories. The 'hundreds' of economists cited as backing the whacky theory
> turn out to have signed up for an open letter to support Microsoft, not
> quite the same thing at all.
> 
> Now it is entirely true that I have not examined the specific evidence cited
> in the book, merely the tendentious press release being circulated. However,
> the press release makes the claims and the only evidence supplied is on the
> basis of the book. This sounds to me like reference to spurious authority.
> Particularly since the 'independent institute' that publishes the book was
> paid $100,000 by Microsoft in a transaction that most certainly did not
> influence a single pardon.
> 
> Coupled with the bogus claim that 250 economists also deny the existence of
> network effects that turns out to be 250 economists support Microsoft, it
> seems fair to say that the press release does not cross the threshold of
> credibility, even if the claim being made was not so far reaching and
> revisionist.
> 
> The behavior of the director of the institute only further confirms the
> impression.
> 
> 	Phill
> 




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 22:10:33 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:10:33 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | The Future of Copy Control
In-Reply-To: <3A942EB9.985070E@dev.tivoli.com>; from jchoate@dev.tivoli.com on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:10:17PM -0600
References: <3A942EB9.985070E@dev.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <20010303011033.A3451@cluebot.com>


Might it be possible for individuals who care to sign up to receive
Slashdot headlines via email or, heaven forfend, go to the site themselves
without cluttering up cpunx with Choatian one-liners?

Censorially yours,
Declan


On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:10:17PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/02/21/1852252.shtml
> -- 
>    The Laws of Serendipity:
> 
>    1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
>       for something.
> 
>    2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
>       first be engaged in making an inferior one.  
> 
>    Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
>    James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
>    Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062
> 




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 22:12:14 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:12:14 -0500
Subject: If the SC isn't fooled by the technology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221182121.5925M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 06:22:15PM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221182121.5925M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010303011214.B3451@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 06:22:15PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> With respect to the current SC deliberation on the use of IR devices and
> unwarranted searches, if they find that the technology is not relevant
> then crypto and many other limitations will fall as well.

This statement makes no sense.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 22:15:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:15:25 -0500
Subject: Filtering CDR open
In-Reply-To: <20010222101333.J2277@slack.lne.com>; from ericm@lne.com on
  Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:13:34AM -0800
References: <20010222101333.J2277@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <20010303011525.C3451@cluebot.com>


FYI I'm subscribed to cypherpunks from one address; I post to it 
from a second; my From: line is a third. I sometimes use a fourth address
to post.

I'm not sure how you're going to handle that, but you might want to consider
semi-automated ways of extracting addresses from "known good" posts,
to the extent that any of mine fit that category.

-Declan



On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:13:34AM -0800, Eric Murray wrote:
> I've set up a new CDR that filters posts to it's subscribers- only posts
> from subscribers to other CDRs or known remailers (or subscriber's alternate
> addresses) will go to lne.com CDR subscribers.
> 
> Here's the list welcome message, which explains how it works in more
> detail.  We're not connected to all the CDRs yet but as far as I can tell
> we're not missing any posts.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the lne.com Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
> This is welcome message v1.0, dated 2/22/01
> 
> Cypherpunks is a list for discussing cryptography and its impact on
> society.  It is not a moderated list.  The list operators are not responsible
> for the list contents.  See the following pages for cypherpunks info:
> 
> 
> Background/general explanation:
> 
> http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/cypherpunks.html
> (read the two Manifestos-- Eric Hughes' and Tim May's-- for good
> background material).
> 
> http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr
> 
> Physical meetings:
> 
> http://www.cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html
> 
> Cypherpunks list archves:
> 
> http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks
> http://cypherpunks.venona.com
>  
> The Cypherpunks list is run in a distributed fashion.  There are a number of
> Cypherpunks Distributed Remailers which handle distribution of the list.
> Different CDRs have different policies.  http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html
> explains the CDR system.
> 
> To unsubscribe from this CDR, send the words "unsubscribe cypherpunks"
> (without the quotes) in the body of email to majordomo at lne.com.
> If you are subscribed to another CDR, you will have to send your
> unsubscribe to it.
> 
> The lne.com CDR is an attempt to reduce the spam that has invaded the
> cypherpunks list without blocking or delaying non-spam posts.  The way
> we do that is to 1) drop posts which are not from a subscriber to any
> of the CDRs, and which are not from a known anonymous remailer  2) make
> an attempt to recognize spam from the contents of the mail message and
> mark spam as such.
> 
> These filtering methods affect only cypherpunks mail going to subscribers
> of cypherpunks at lne.com- for example, if someone sends mail to the CDR
> cypherpunks at cyberpass.com, the mail gets passed to all the CDR nodes
> inluding lne for distribution to subscribers.  If the sender isn't a
> subscriber to any of the CDRs, the lne.com CDR node will not send the
> message to its subscribers.  It will forward the message to the other
> CDRs however.
> 
> This also means that as a subscriber to the lne CDR, you may see replies
> from other CDR suibscribers to posts that you didn't see, because
> the were from non-subscribers.
> 
> Posts sent directly to the lne CDR need to be from a subscriber to any of
> the CDRs (or a known remailer) in order to be accepted and passed on to
> the other CDRs.  I'd prefer to have it send everything along, but that'd
> require a whole lot of majordomo hacking and it's just not worth it.
> 
> Some cypherpunks posters post from addresses that are different
> from the one that they're subscribed with, causing their post to be
> dropped by lne.com.  When this happens, I'll forward their post to
> cypherpunks at lne.com (headers intact) and add their alternate address
> to the list of posters.   I will reserve the right to also delete an
> address I've added to the list if that address starts sending spam-
> this is to defeat an attack where the spammer sends a non-spam message
> to the list to get his address added, and then starts spamming the list.
> I doubt that I'll have to do this, but I'm mentioning it now in case it
> does happen.
> 
> The spam-recognition software in use at lne.com is described at
> http://www.lne.com/ericm/spammaster.  In short, it looks for key phrases
> in the mail body (like "Dear Friend" and "This is not spam") and assigns
> points to the different phrases.  The spam point total is put in the
> "X-spam" header added at the end of the mail headers.  The mail is still
> sent to the list.  The rating is there for lne.com CDR subscribers to
> use or not as they please.  The spammaster config file that the lne CDR
> uses is available at http://www.lne.com/cpunk/spamfilter and there is
> more explanation of the software at http://www.lne.com/ericm/spammaster.
> 
> Other anti-spam measures:  lne.com has a policy of blocking mail from
> sites that it deems are spam havens.  It may also use the MAPS database(s)
> to block mail from spammers.  These measures will affect the posting of
> mail directly to the lne CDR but will not affect the relaying of mail from
> the other CDRs.  We do not get a feed from the CDR ssz, which is in the
> MAPS RSS database because it's an open relay.  While we don't use the
> RSS currently, our alternate MX host does.  If lne can't accept mail,
> then it goes to the MX host, which rejects mail from SSZ.  Since this
> creates an ugly mail loop and neither our MX or SSZ are likely to change
> their policies, we don't get a feed from SSZ.  This shouldn't affect CDR
> distribution though, as we'll get posts that originate from SSZ through
> the other CDRs.
> 
> Lne.com runs the input to its CDR list through demime
> (http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html) which deletes MIME attachments
> from mail.  Demime leaves a note in the attachments place, so that
> recipients know that there was some cruft there.
> 
> Lne.com does not archive cypherpunks messages.
> 
> The Lne.com CDR strips out the "CDR:" tags in the Subject of messages
> that some other CDRs put in.
> 
> 
> If you have any questions that aren't answered by this message, send
> me email.
> 
> Eric Murray
> 
> ericm at lne.com
> 
> 
> Appendix: technical details.
> 
> Here's the deep technical stuff, for those who're interested.
> Mail from other CDRs is sent to an address at lne.com, where it's processed
> by procmail.  The procmail script checks for bounced mail and for dups, then
> sends the mail to the other CDRs, excepting the one that sent it.
> It also sends the mail to cypherpunks at lne.com, which is the list, run
> by majordomo.  The list alias processes the mail first through a small
> script which cleans up the headers (i.e. removing CDR: and Re: Re: from
> Subject lines) and then passes it to demime.  Demime strips out any
> MIME attachments, leaving a single line in their place to note what
> was there.  Then the message is passed to majordomo itself.
> 
> The majordomo config is pretty much standard.  The allowed-posters
> list is seperate from the subscribers list, so we can use a list of
> all CDR subscribers, remailers, etc.  Mail sent directly to the lne CDR
> goes to cypherpunks first, but the local address that runs through
> procmail is subscribed, so the mail also gets forwarded to the other CDRs.
> 
> We generate the list of CDR subscribers by requesting a 'who cypherpunks'
> from each one, once a day.  Some CDRs don't allow that command, so
> for those we ask that they send the list via a cron job.  The list is
> processed along with a locall-maintained list of remailers and alternate
> addresses to make the list that's used for determing if a post is from
> a subscriber.
> 
> The only modifications to Majordomo was a small one to allow wildcards
> in addresses, so we can allow posts from *@remailer.somewhere without
> having to add each different remailer user's address (for remailers
> that allow different user ids to show in the From: line).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>   Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
>   http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 22:18:09 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:18:09 -0500
Subject: Why Wired is tired
In-Reply-To: <3A9E2C3E.4BBF27F3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>; from k.brown@ccs.bbk.ac.uk on Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 11:02:22AM +0000
References: <3A96D907.57035CCC@dev.tivoli.com> <20010228182723.D25964@cluebot.com> <3A9E2C3E.4BBF27F3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20010303011809.D3451@cluebot.com>


Hmm. The author of the article and Choate, if I recall the original
message properly.

Both seem to be attirbuting a cyberlibertarianism to Wired that is
no longer present.

-Declan


On Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 11:02:22AM +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > He's wrong;
> 
> Rosenblatt or Valovic?
> 
> > you're (not surprisingly) wrong.
>  
> > Wired, the magazine, is no longer what it once was.
> > 
> > -Declan
> > 
> > On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 03:41:27PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > > http://www.sunworld.com/unixinsideronline/swol-02-2001/swol-0202-bookshelf.html
> > > --
> > >    The Laws of Serendipity:
> > >
> > >    1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
> > >       for something.
> > >
> > >    2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
> > >       first be engaged in making an inferior one.
> > >
> > >    Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
> > >    James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
> > >    Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062
> > >
> 




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 22:20:06 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:20:06 -0500
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed
  Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b6c23266a910@[207.111.241.61]>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:47:09PM -0800
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
  <a05010403b6c23266a910@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <20010303012006.E3451@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:47:09PM -0800, Tim May wrote, quoting someone:
> >
> >But now, I am beginning to see what you are saying.  We shouldn't blame
> >*speech* for the result of speech.  It's the *result* of said speech that
> >should be the grounds of wrongness.  Makes sense to me.
> 
> If you are this easily persuaded, and come at "free speech" with such 
> confusion, you have a lot of reading ahead of you. I envy you, 
> actually.

Right. Put another way, the reason we care about free speech and
want to protect it is precisely *because* it has powerful results.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 22:21:54 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:21:54 -0500
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 07:47:08PM -1000
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010227231001.01f1fc98@shell11.ba.best.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>
Message-ID: <20010303012154.F3451@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 07:47:08PM -1000, Reese wrote:
> I don't think Godwin would agree.  Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet
> named after Mike Godwin (godwin at eff.org) concerning Usenet "discussions".

Mike has been gone from EFF for some years.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  2 22:23:46 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:23:46 -0500
Subject: _Godwin_ on Godwin
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEKBCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>; from
  aimee.farr@pobox.com on Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:14:46PM -0600
References: <a05010400b6c4b9bbf4af@[207.111.241.61]>
  <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEKBCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20010303012346.G3451@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:14:46PM -0600, Aimee Farr wrote:
> I admit it, I prevailed on him to rescue me from your affections. My plan
> seems to have backfired, as he knew it would. I'm a chew toy.

This is a very, very strange statement.

-Declan




From aleph at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Mar  3 01:38:55 2001
From: aleph at alumni.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 01:38:55 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On
  Flawed Theory, Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <20010303005032.A3265@cluebot.com>
References: <001a01c0a202$435126c0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
 <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010227110823.22992A-100000@alumnus>
 <001a01c0a202$435126c0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010303013855.010bee08@alumni.caltech.edu>


At 12:50 AM 3/3/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Phill gets it halfway right, or put another way is halfway wrong.
>
>The question is not whether network effects exist or not; clearly they
>do in some form. Better questions include whether they have produced
>inferior results than "someone" desires, how strong they are, and whether
>state intervention is a good idea because of their alleged ill effects.
>
>Phill also is not aware that VHS has some advantages over betamax,
>and also persists in crankishly calling libertarian groups "right
>wing." He is clearly an example of a person who needs killing. (*)
>
Somewhere in all this discussion of network effects, the very name has
somehow been obscured.  My god, these are "network" effects!  Of course
they will be more pronounced on an actual network.  
>
>On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 10:46:55PM -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > Microsoft won because of superior reviews? Come on, how stupid do you
>> > think we are?  So if a company pays for glowing reviews that would be
>> > okay?
>> 
>> Matthew's argument is that 'network effects' do not exist, based on a
>> tendentious piece of propaganda pushed by a right wing crank tank. The
crank
>> tank is attempting to proove that the free market is perfect, unsullied by
>> the possibility of monopoly that obviously ignorant writers such as Adam
>> Smith wrote at great length about.
>> 
>> Hence the anecdotes such as QWERTY, Betamax are attacked as if they were
the
>> best evidence, the sole evidence even for network effects. This is
>> historical revisionism in the service of dogmatic ideology.
>> 
>> Positive feedback exists, get over it.
>> 
>> 
>> >Obviously they have never tried to sell a product.  It's very
>> > dificult to get consideration such that you could prove the technical
>> > merits when there is a large existing supplier.
>> 
>> That is only a weak network effect. People buy from Amazon because they
have
>> a well known brand name, have established a customer reputation etc. But
>> there is no intrinsic advantage buying from a large online bookseller
than a
>> medium sized one.
>> 
>> There is a big advantage having a VHS video over Betamax however. If you
>> have VHS you can rent movies from stores, you can send tapes to friends who
>> have equipment to play it. The fact that a modern day VHS recorder is
>> technicaly superior to any Betamax machine made is irrelevant. At the time
>> the standard was set Sony and Betamax had the clearly superior technology.
>> 
>> 
>> A network effect exists when there is an intrinsic advantage to join the
>> bigger network. Operating systems have been understood to have strong
>> network effects since the 1950s. My company only supports one version of
>> UNIX for certain products because the cost of QA on each O/S variant is
>> significant. If we were choosing the technically best O/S platform we would
>> probably look at of the stripped down, hardened BSD variants, but we choose
>> the platform that most of our customers are already familliar with -
>> Solaris.
>> 
>> When I wrote video-games for a living I wrote for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum
>> with a market of several million users, not the vastly more sophisticated
>> BBC computer - even though the spectrums would die after about 100 hours
use
>> and need replacement. I would typically replace a spectrum three or four
>> times within the guarantee period. Writing a game for the bigger market
gave
>> bigger returns. Customers bought the machines supported by the most games.
>> 
>> 
>> Network effects are the alpha and the omega of Internet business strategy.
>> 
>> Ironically despite paying for the tendentious propaganda Microsoft appears
>> to be benefitting from the argument that network effects and 'tipping'
>> explain the emergence of a single operating system.
>> 
>> I don't know if the DoJ should interpret recent events in Seatle as a
divine
>> attempt to breakup Microsoft. If so it is really time for the DoJ to
give up
>> since it evidently failed.
>> 
>> 		Phill
>> 
>
>


                             -Colin




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Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:58:38 +0800
Subject: 30,000 Exclusive Images of Asia
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From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Sat Mar  3 04:46:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 04:46 -0800
Subject: ex-PSIA-noda
Message-ID: <200103031247.EAA21977@sirius.infonex.com>


I am Hironari Noda, an ex-PSIA official. 
http://216.167.120.50/noda072300.htm

As I reported to you last November, on September 23, Tokyo metropolitan police arrested me on charge of striking a PSIA agent on the head. Until the incident, PSIA had kept me under surveillance for several days and stationed an official vehicle just in front of my apartment house on the morning of the accident.
Although I did not hit him, I was arrested and forced to be detained in the Nogata Police Station for total 18 days. Eventually I was released on October 10. Even the Tokyo Prosecutors' Office could not help deciding that they gave up prosecuting me. That was because there was no proof except for unreliable witnesses by PSIA agents themselves. The "injured" man was not able to submit even a piece of medical certificates. 
http://cryptome.org/noda-arrest.htm 
http://cryptome.org/noda110900.htm

Then, in return, I finally decided to bring two lawsuits against the Japanese and the Tokyo local governments, based on the National Compensation Law and submitted two written complaints to the Tokyo Local Court on December 28, 2000.
The purpose of one of the lawsuits is to blame for the illegal investigation and fabrication by PSIA and that of the other to accuse the inadequate judgment and law procedure by Tokyo Metropolitan Police, Tokyo Prosecutors' Office and so on.
The courts have already been held since February 13, 2001. The governments try to delay the judgment process. As a result, the next court will not be held until April 13. The foreign correspondent who attended the court was surprised because it finished in ten minutes. Just the exchange of the documents. That was the reality of the Japanese court system. However, at some points during the procedure, the PSIA agents will have to be summoned to the court.

I opened a website on December 14,2000 in order to criticize PSIA, publicize the developments of the lawsuits and make the related legal documents available to all those who are interested in this matter.  

http://balder.prohosting.com/~vhnoda/

Unfortunately, most of the content is written in Japanese but I follow the intelligence related topics in Japan.

On the lower part of the top page, two colored images of the books are attached. The right one is a cover picture of the book titled "PSIA secret documents", which was published on February 5, 2001.
http://www.alpha-net.ne.jp/users2/shakai/top/shakai.htm 

If you are familiar with Japanese, please check the pages.

vio_n at lycos.ne.jp




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Mar  3 04:14:53 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 07:14:53 -0500
Subject: _Godwin_ on Godwin
In-Reply-To: <20010303012346.G3451@cluebot.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEKBCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
 <a05010400b6c4b9bbf4af@[207.111.241.61]>
 <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEKBCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200103031225.HAA06051@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


Declan wrote:

>This is a very, very strange statement.

It takes just a moment to remember that Aimee is allegedly
based in Waco, TX, though probably with a TLA in Fort
Worth -- Texas TLAs never stop joking about Waco
to hide their own addiction problems. Choate is in Austin, TX, 
when he's not electromagnetically rocketing around the
stars. Mike Godwin's Texas background is a disturbing, if 
pleasurable, fact. The EFF dustup was rooted in 
hypersensitive sensibilities about a party's birthplace.

It's the water, Declan, the water in Texas has stuff in it that
drives natives to say, to write, to behave in odd ways. The smiles
of Texans are not signs of friendliness but evidence of 
contaminated ground water. Scientists can find no difference
in the ground water and white lightning.

I'm a Texan.

Like Texas, the water in DC, the water is New York City, in 
California, the East and West Coast, some say the New World, 
is laced with something that induces crazed, condescending
braggartly superiority, the urge to never lose an argument
that's winnable by lying, by denying that's what you said,
wrote, did. To shoot if nothing else wins.

This is not about superpower foreign policy.




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Sat Mar  3 08:12:17 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 08:12:17 -0800
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6c22c06299e@[207.111.241.224]>
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227222659.38744A-100000@bard.edu>
  <a05010400b6c22c06299e@[207.111.241.224]>
Message-ID: <p04320401b6c6c7bd8561@[65.5.86.210]>


At 20:32 -0800  on  2/27/01, Tim May wrote:

>Citing libel and slander in the context of "free speech" is a 
>slippery slope. For one thing, neither libel nor slander has 
>anything to do with First Amendment issues, which are limitations on 
>censorship, prior restraint, etc. (Even the infamous "Falsely 
>shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater" is more confusing than 
>illuminating, and certainly has nothing to do with censorship or 
>prior restraint.)

It's illuminating to look at the legal definition of libel/slander. 
To prove either you have to show that the person had malicious intent 
AND new that what they were saying was not true.  Libel/slander is 
not a free speech crime, it's a special type of fraud.
-- 

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas
____________________________________________________________________
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
<mailto:kelliott at mac.com>                             ICQ#23758827 




From BF at mindspring.com  Sat Mar  3 08:13:01 2001
From: BF at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 08:13:01 -0800
Subject: MR.ZHU JIAN-JIN Your Falun Gong materials will arrive shortly
Message-ID: <3AA1180D.CE2E74E@mindspring.com>


We have shipped your Falun Gong recruiting materials in plain wrapper.
They will
arrive at your home soon.  Thank you for your request.  We can also
provide bibles
if you like.


>BEST REGARD.
>
>MR.ZHU JIAN-JIN
>JINYUN LOCKS FACTORY
>E-MAIL: JYSJJ at MAIL.LSPTT.ZJ.CN
>Http:// WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM





From ericm at lne.com  Sat Mar  3 08:20:11 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 08:20:11 -0800
Subject: Filtering CDR open
In-Reply-To: <20010303011525.C3451@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on
  Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:15:25AM -0500
References: <20010222101333.J2277@slack.lne.com>
  <20010303011525.C3451@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20010303082011.R1003@slack.lne.com>


On Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:15:25AM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> FYI I'm subscribed to cypherpunks from one address; I post to it 
> from a second; my From: line is a third. I sometimes use a fourth address
> to post.

You're not the only one who does that.

> I'm not sure how you're going to handle that, but you might want to consider
> semi-automated ways of extracting addresses from "known good" posts,
> to the extent that any of mine fit that category.

Since the goal is to block spam, not to prevent all non-subscribed
posters from posting, I put that in place before I announced the list.


Bounces (from not being on the posters list) go to me.   If it looks
like it's not spam, I have a script which strips off the outer envelope
and forwards the mail to the list, adding the contents of the From:
line to a list of addresses that's sorted into the major posters list.

So far I've added 39 addresses that way, 5 of which appear to be remailers.
Of the rest, roughly half are people who're cross-posting from other lists
like coderpunks or cryptography (or both), and the rest are
people who're posting from alternate addresses. 

There's 2-3 spam emails for every list email.   Previously I'd been
filtering most of the spam.  I had no idea it'd gotten this bad.


-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar  3 06:38:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 08:38:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: If the SC isn't fooled by the technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010303083647.5925K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Sure it does Declan, because you don't get the catch doesn't mean it
doesn't exist.

Bottem line if a 'technology' standard is found wanting with respect to
the 4th then extension to the 1st isn't a big jump. If you can't equate
speech-crypto with search-ir oh well.

But you're a journalist so it's not surprising you don't get it, you have
a hard enough time getting quotes correct.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:12:14 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
To: Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com>
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com, The Club Inferno <hell at einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: CDR: If the SC isn't fooled by the technology

On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 06:22:15PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> With respect to the current SC deliberation on the use of IR devices and
> unwarranted searches, if they find that the technology is not relevant
> then crypto and many other limitations will fall as well.

This statement makes no sense.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar  3 06:41:05 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 08:41:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010303084023.5925O-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Which is an irrelelvent observatio and not germane to 'Godwin's Law'.

Watch them blipverts young man.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 01:21:54 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
To: Reese <reeza at flex.com>
Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: CDR: Re: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts

On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 07:47:08PM -1000, Reese wrote:
> I don't think Godwin would agree.  Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet
> named after Mike Godwin (godwin at eff.org) concerning Usenet "discussions".

Mike has been gone from EFF for some years.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar  3 06:41:39 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 08:41:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Draft standard for AES (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010303084135.5925Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 20:56:51 -0800
From: Alex Alten <Alten at home.com>
To: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: Draft standard for AES


NIST has just released this up on their web site.

http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/

- Alex
--

Alex Alten

Alten at Home.Com





From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Mar  3 09:35:04 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 09:35:04 -0800
Subject: eSurvellance via cable modem?
In-Reply-To: <3AA064FB.368D5DB4@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <3AA00AD0.2DBFA92D@aelea.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010303093123.03ef09c0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 09:30 PM 3/2/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>Doing a little research to be up to speed on cable...
>PacketCable is interesting, as it talks about online gaming, telephony,
>etc... but check out this part of the spec.
>
>
>http://www.packetcable.com/specs/pkt-sp-esp-I01-991229.pdf

Nothing really surprising here.  This spec, as I understand it, applies 
only to VoIP connections established through the service provider's Call 
Management System (their equivalent of a PBX).  If users employ their own 
SW to do call placement it doesn't come under the spec.  (Of course, that 
means you also don't get the improved latency characteristics offered by 
the ISP for their VoIP terminated calls).

steve




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Mar  3 10:08:07 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:08:07 -0800
Subject: Filtering CDR open
In-Reply-To: <20010303082011.R1003@slack.lne.com>
References: <20010222101333.J2277@slack.lne.com> 
  <20010303011525.C3451@cluebot.com>
  <20010303082011.R1003@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <a05010401b6c6e2027588@[207.111.241.1]>


At 8:20 AM -0800 3/3/01, Eric Murray wrote:
>On Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:15:25AM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>  FYI I'm subscribed to cypherpunks from one address; I post to it
>>  from a second; my From: line is a third. I sometimes use a fourth address
>  > to post.
>....
>So far I've added 39 addresses that way, 5 of which appear to be remailers.
>Of the rest, roughly half are people who're cross-posting from other lists
>like coderpunks or cryptography (or both), and the rest are
>people who're posting from alternate addresses.
>
>There's 2-3 spam emails for every list email.   Previously I'd been
>filtering most of the spam.  I had no idea it'd gotten this bad.

By the way, I've been subscribed to cypherpunks at lne.com for the past 
week or so. It's been a joy not to see the spam and junk and "can u 
help me mak bombz?" noise.

(I was filtering a lot of this junk out by simply filtering all 
cypherpunks at toad.com posts into a special folder and then 
occasionally looking for posts by people I recognized, as sometimes 
even _good_ posters were posting to the toad.com address (usually in 
a reply-to-all mode, one assumes). But a lot of junk was still 
getting through.)

Latency from when I post to lne.com to when I get my own message back 
is usually a couple of minutes. I have no idea what it is to other 
nodes. Probably not much longer.

However, I see the address in my Reply-to-all is 
"cypherpunks at slack.lne.com". This is needlessly confusing, even if 
slack.lne.com resolves to lne.com.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From competetive at organic.medicine  Sat Mar  3 10:13:28 2001
From: competetive at organic.medicine (competetive at organic.medicine)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:13:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Get that competitive edge you need!
Message-ID: <200103031813.KAA10911@toad.com>

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From hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Sat Mar  3 10:01:48 2001
From: hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:01:48 -0600
Subject: MR.ZHU JIAN-JIN Your Falun Gong materials will arrive shortly
References: <3AA1180D.CE2E74E@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3AA13176.C1C19E8D@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


MR.ZHU JIAN-JIN;

   Oh, wonderful! I see by your post on the Cypherpunks list that you are
recruiters for the Falun Gong, please send me some Falun Gong literature
at once.
Thanx.



Blank Frank wrote:

> We have shipped your Falun Gong recruiting materials in plain wrapper.
> They will
> arrive at your home soon.  Thank you for your request.  We can also
> provide bibles
> if you like.
>
> >BEST REGARD.
> >
> >MR.ZHU JIAN-JIN
> >JINYUN LOCKS FACTORY
> >E-MAIL: JYSJJ at MAIL.LSPTT.ZJ.CN
> >Http:// WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM




From auto987 at navegalia.com  Sat Mar  3 04:17:19 2001
From: auto987 at navegalia.com (Auto987)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:17:19 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c0a3db$e5922760$4b91a6d4@ricardo>


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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Mar  3 12:48:07 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 14:48:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: update.528 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010303144719.5925Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:35:36 -0500 (EST)
From: AIP listserver <physnews at aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.528

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 528  March 1, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and
James Riordon

SWITCHABLE X-RAY STORAGE.  Recently we reported on
two experiments at Harvard (Update 521) in which a light signal
enters a volume of gas where, under the action of an additional
control laser beam, it is greatly slowed; in fact, as the signal slows
down to zero the light energy is coherently converted into a
collective excitation of the spins of the
atoms in the gas.  Later the light signal can be resurrected and sent
on its way.  It has come to our attention that something like this,
only in a nuclear system, was reported in an article some four years
ago (Shvyd'ko et al., Physical Review Letters, 7 October 1996).  In
the earlier experiment, conducted at HASYLAB (DESY) in
Hamburg (contact Yuri Shvyd'ko, University of Hamburg, 49-40-
8998-2200, yuri.shvydko at desy.de), the incoming light consists of
x rays, and the receiving medium is an ensemble of iron-57 nuclei,
ensconced in a FeBO3 crystal.  All 10^18 iron nuclei in the 20-
micron-thick sample interact collectively in a single "nuclear
exciton" state with each new incoming x-ray photon. As APS
Editor-in-Chief Martin Blume (631-591-4000) points out, such a
"solid-state nuclear physics" effect is well known also under the
name of coherent nuclear resonant scattering.  By abrupt switching
of a weak (60 Gauss) external magnetic field, the nuclear exciton
can be manipulated in such a way that its decay is prohibited.  In
this way the x rays are stored, and can be released on demand by
reversing the magnetic switching.  The released light signal is
coherent with the incoming one. The coherence of quantum
information transfer is perfectly preserved.  Put differently, one
can say that in the Harvard experiments the atoms, behaving like
tiny electric dipoles, converted the incoming light into a coherent
excitation of atomic spins (a polariton), whereas in the HASYLAB
experiment the iron nuclei, behaving like tiny magnetic dipoles,
converted the incoming x rays into a coherent nuclear excitation
spread over the whole crystal (a nuclear exciton).  As in the
Harvard experiments, the pent-up electromagnetic energy stored in
the system can be released (and sent moving in its original
direction) by the flip of a switch, in this case by adjusting the
external magnetic field  direction.

A SHARP GAMMA-RAY HOLOGRAM, with atomic-scale
[SSZ: Text deleted]

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From elxx at 163.net  Sat Mar  3 15:01:20 2001
From: elxx at 163.net (elxx at 163.net)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 15:01:20
Subject: ע��������Ȥ��Ʒ����Ա���ܾ����Żݣ�
Message-ID: <20010303065140.583BB1CEA1A1A@bjapp7.163.net>


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From tcmay at got.net  Sat Mar  3 16:16:07 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 16:16:07 -0800
Subject: Tessier-Ashpool now has Neuroserver!!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021814260.17918-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021814260.17918-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a05010402b6c734ecf065@[207.111.241.1]>


At 6:28 PM -0800 3/2/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>It is a compaq armada m700, with 128M memory and 6G
>hard drive.  It got kiped in San Francisco, on the
>western edge of a neighborhood known as hunter's point.
>It has already been reported to the appropriate police,
>but that's mainly pro forma; in the recovery of such
>items they are nearly useless.
>
>The application is called "Neuroserver".  It exists in
>a full GUI development environment/compiler (NSAE) and
>a windows service (NSRE) with associated runtime admin
>tools. There's also a solaris version, but that wasn't
>on the machine she had.


The sky above Hunter's Point was the color of television, tuned to a 
dead channel."It's not like I'm using Windoze," she heard someone 
say, as she shouldered her way through the crowd around the door of 
the Starbucks, beneath the quartz-halogen floods that lit the docks 
all night like vast stages; where you couldn't see the lights of 
Oakland for the glare of the television sky, not even the towering 
hologram logo of Herbalife, and San Francisco Bay was a black expanse 
where gulls wheeled above drifting shoals of white styrofoam coffee 
cups.

She'd made the classic mistake, the one she'd sworn she'd never make. 
She stole from her employers. She kept something for herself and 
tried to move it through a fence in Sunnyvale. She still wasn't sure 
how ahe'd been discovered, not that it  mattered now, now that 
Neuroserver was in the hands of Tessier-Ashpool.

The Finn was a a Linux hacker, a trafficker in Gnutellaed downloads, 
primarily in software. In the course of his business, he sometimes 
came into contact with other fences, some of whom dealt in the more 
traditional articles of the trade. In assault rifles for lonely 
Cypherpunks, in JPEGs of Britney Spears, in illegal Scientology NOTS.

As she faced the Finn, who had turned the color of television, tuned 
to a dead channel, she stood, stretched, shook herself. "You know, I 
figure the one Tessier-Ashpool sent after that Jimmy, the boy who 
stole the laptop, he must be pretty much the same as the one the 
Detweiler sent to kill CJ."
         
She drew the fletcher from its holster and dialed the barrel to full auto.


--Tim May,channeling Wm. Gibson

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From munaf at vsnl.com  Sat Mar  3 17:07:27 2001
From: munaf at vsnl.com (Book Club International)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 17:07:27
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200103031132.DAA22870@toad.com>


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From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sat Mar  3 15:05:10 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 18:05:10 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker ("network externality")
In-Reply-To: <20010303010219.D3265@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <000101c0a436$6671d7e0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


Declan would have more of a case if Theroux did not repeatedly refer to
L-M as 'Institute fellows' as if they were interns. Actually they are
faculty at a couple of state universities [albeit in admin roles].

The issue is not the case L-M actually make but the propaganda spin
put on that case by the Independent institute for transparent political
purposes.

I find it very hard to lend any credibility to any 'research' institute
that is committed to a particular political point of view - which 'The
Independent Institutue' clearly is.


Some additional information, it turns out that the original L-M paper
on QWERTY is nine years old.
http://www.economist.co.uk/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=196071&CFID=1294910&CFT
OKEN=8639

Unfortunately the paper as reported does not make the case that Declan
claims. It does not DISPROOVE QWERTY, it merely asserts that the example is
USED WITHOUT PROOF.

Also the fact that economists generally still appear to give the QWERTY
story credence may indicate ignorance or may simply mean that they reject
the L-M hypothesis.


Since Theroux appears unable to actually state the L-M case, merely draw
his own conclusions from it, let us turn to the economist for a precis:
http://www.economist.co.uk/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=240761&CFID=1294910&CFT
OKEN=8639

[[[To begin with, the authors question the theoretical appeal of the
path-dependence paradigm. Network effects are real, and it follows that
lock-in is a possibility. But note that lock-in is inefficient (that is, it
is a kind of market failure) only if the inferior product survives despite
the fact that the benefits of switching would exceed the costs. If the
inferior product survives because the costs of switching are high, that is
as it should be: in that case it would be inefficient to switch. (Recall
that the point of the bogus QWERTY story was that the benefits of switching
would be great and the costs low: the market failure consisted in the
difficulty of making a co-ordinated jump to the new layout.) Taking
switching costs into account immediately narrows the extent of plausible
market failures. ]]]


OK so what is being said here? Lock in is a possibility due to switching
cost, BUT IT ISN'T A MARKET FAILURE, why? because it does not demonstrate an
irrational choice.

This is not actually contradicting anything in my argument. What they are
actually arguing about is whether the lock in effect violates the tenets of
rational choice theory. Lock-in may occur and you may only be able to buy
your operating system from one vendor, but that is not a market failure AS
WE CHOOSE TO DEFINE IT.

So consumers may think it is a market failure to only be able to buy their
O/S from one company and that may be their complaint but the Indpendent
institutes of the world tell us that this is merely our ignorance. What we
are experiencing is not 'market failure' (which could never happen by the
way, no not ever, ever) but something else and until we work out what they
specifically call that effect [or more precisely what they will allow that
effect to be called] we ignorant peons have no right to complain about it.

It is a sham intellectual process, it is the type of behavior that gives the
'soft sciences' a bad name.

What this comes down to is a set of definitions, Theroux attempted me to use
his terminology on several occasions and I declined specifically because I
knew the game he was playing.


Another similar trick often seen is to use the technical definition 'Pareto
Optimal' to mean 'Optimal'. A system is Pareto Optimal if no improvement is
possible without disadvantage to at least one party. This means that
practically every real-world situation is Pareto optimal.[*] So 'free
markets' (an elastic term with humpty-dumpty semantics) become 'optimal'
since it is only necessary to find one person who would be harmed by each
alternative policy.


[[[Turning to the actual evidence, the authors find no such cases at all.
Again and again they show that good products win. The standard lock-in
stories are examined and, like QWERTY before them, debunked]]]

The authors find no evidence to disprove their theory.... surprise! What
this amounts to is the logical falacy A implies B, NOT B ==> A.

	Phill

[*] Pareto was a 19th centry Italian railway official who was the first man
to get the trains to run on time in that country. He did this by defining a
train to be 'on time' if it could not have arrived any closer to its planned
arrival time without causing any other train to be late.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> [mailto:owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu]On Behalf Of Declan
> McCullagh
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 1:02 AM
> To: Phillip Hallam-Baker
> Cc: 'Paul Spirito'; 'Matthew Gaylor'; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu;
> cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com; 'Colin
> A. Reed';
> 'Ken Brown'; 'David Theroux'
> Subject: Re: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker
> ("network externality")
>
>
> One problem with Phill's analysis is that the L-M work stands on
> its own, independent from the, well, Independent Institute.
>
> Criticizing the group does not score points against the L-M work.
>
> -Declan
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 01:20:41AM -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> >
> > > Fyi, Phill has opposed the MS antitrust case.
> >
> > True, and I have been vindicated by recent events, since
> even divine power
> > has proven unable to breakup Microsoft - although to be
> fair to the DoJ it
> > must be pointed out that he felt the need to try.
> >
> >
> > It is pretty wierd that the crank tank thinks that people
> who disagree with
> > their reasoning must disagree with their conclusion, or for
> that matter that
> > people who agree with their conclusion must agree with their whacky
> > theories. The 'hundreds' of economists cited as backing the
> whacky theory
> > turn out to have signed up for an open letter to support
> Microsoft, not
> > quite the same thing at all.
> >
> > Now it is entirely true that I have not examined the
> specific evidence cited
> > in the book, merely the tendentious press release being
> circulated. However,
> > the press release makes the claims and the only evidence
> supplied is on the
> > basis of the book. This sounds to me like reference to
> spurious authority.
> > Particularly since the 'independent institute' that
> publishes the book was
> > paid $100,000 by Microsoft in a transaction that most
> certainly did not
> > influence a single pardon.
> >
> > Coupled with the bogus claim that 250 economists also deny
> the existence of
> > network effects that turns out to be 250 economists support
> Microsoft, it
> > seems fair to say that the press release does not cross the
> threshold of
> > credibility, even if the claim being made was not so far
> reaching and
> > revisionist.
> >
> > The behavior of the director of the institute only further
> confirms the
> > impression.
> >
> > 	Phill
> >
>




From cashbert at gmx.at  Sat Mar  3 03:38:19 2001
From: cashbert at gmx.at (CashBert)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 18:38:19 +0700
Subject: www.freesfibusiness.cjb.net
Message-ID: <200103031142.DAA23333@cyberpass.net>


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From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Mar  3 19:28:03 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:28:03 -0800
Subject: Godwin's Law and Common Reference Points
In-Reply-To: <a05010418b6c43c1c3c10@[207.111.241.61]>
References: <3A9E5F13.B97FBF36@ricardo.de>
  <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
  <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
  <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>
  <3A9E2C2E.D20BF18@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <3A9E5F13.B97FBF36@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010303192158.02025818@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 10:06 AM 3/1/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote:
 > I believe there are many valid ways to refer to the Nazis and Hitler
 > without some knee jerk invocation of Godwin's Law. (I haven't talked
 > to Mike in several years, but I expect he would agree that Godwin's
 > Law is often, even usually, invoked in a knee-jerk way.)

The twentieth century taught us many enormously important lessons about 
human nature, social organization, and economics.

Some people are very unhappy with those lessons, so they spin them, or find 
reasons to ignore them.  "It was not socialism, it was state capitalism"

Most invocations of Godwin's law are excuses for not remembering.

When someone spins the lessons of nazism in a misleading way, other people 
usually do not invoke Godwin's law, instead they respond with the opposite 
spin.

Most of the time when Godwin's law is invoked, it is an inappropriate 
response to an appropriate invocation of the lessons of the twentieth century.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      RCoqtjZH3uUscZtSOD+ypJ18lnwRKVrrCiCJ4BK
      4oaDXQkf2S0RFEwGNPUi8f/2ccMiadE+oSllluHeY




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Mar  3 21:32:32 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:32:32 -1000
Subject: June 2, 1999 OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON FROM 240
  ECONOMISTS ON ANTITRUST PROTECTIONISM
In-Reply-To: <v04220804b6c75f45b676@[198.4.94.244]>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193033.036f7250@flex.com>


At 09:59 PM 3/3/01 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
 >Concerned about a growing number of antitrust cases instigated by
 >rival business firms, 240 distinguished economists signed an open
 >letter to President Clinton that called for an end to speculative
 >antitrust enforcement efforts. The ad, sponsored by The Independent
 >Institute, appeared in the June 2, 1999, editions of The Washington
 >Post and The New York Times.
 >
 >AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON FROM 240 ECONOMISTS
 >ON ANTITRUST
 >PROTECTIONISM
 >
 >Dear President Clinton:

Gee, that's nice, but Clinton isn't President anymore, and hasn't been for
over a month.

Why are you sending this to the cypherpunks list like this, today?

I'll ask moderators of all the other lists Matt x-posted to, to fwd my
query to their lists, so proper discussion can ensue in all venues.

Reese




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Mar  3 16:48:44 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:48:44 -0500
Subject: AUSA Threatens 60 Minutes in Bell Case
Message-ID: <200103040059.TAA10434@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


From: http://cryptome.org/jdb-doj-cbs.htm

"An Assistant US Attorney in Seattle has threatened a CBS 
60 Minutes reporter who is investigating the prosecution 
of James Dalton Bell in Western Washington District Court, 
warning the reporter that a subpoena will be issued for his 
information if he continues to investigate the case and its 
broader ramifications. 

According to a confidential source, AUSA Robb London, 
the prosecutor of the Bell case, warned 60 Minutes reporter 
Adam Ciralsky that a subpoena would be issued to Ciralsky 
for information about persons he had spoken to about the 
case and what he had learned if Ciralsky continued with 
his investigation."






From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Mar  3 20:20:46 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:20:46 -0800
Subject: Decentralized Markets
In-Reply-To: <005901c0a294$a2440480$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>
References: <3A9E7C38.14811C84@mindspring.com>
 <a05010417b6c43527999e@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010303200132.02013628@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 12:14 PM 3/1/2001 -0900, Daniel J. Boone wrote:
 > So far, all of the ideas I have come up would require a relatively
 > stable system for recording reputation capital and associating it
 > with nyms.  I haven't figured out a protocol for doing THAT without
 > it becoming a point of attack for the decentralized market system.

EBay's primary asset is that it is a repository of reputation capital for 
buyers and sellers.

Naturally it will attempt to capitalize on that asset, taking a share of 
the value generated by your reputation capital, and naturally the state 
will attempt to confiscate that asset, and "correct" the information in 
that asset, to punish certain people and groups and reward other people and 
groups.  Misbehave, perhaps by selling thought crime products, and your 
reputation capital will be expunged.  Or, if you are a member of a 
protected group, unfavorable comments will be expunged.

Therefore, in the long run, people will find it more profitable to control 
the reputation information that they generate -- we will need a peer to 
peer reputation system.

Proposed system:
When I transact with someone, the auction client on my computer generates a 
record, containing proof of some parts of that transaction, signed by 
myself and the other party, stored on my computer. By default I make that 
record public.  If I like, I can add any comments I please to that record.

A key problem is that people need to look all this stuff up.  This requires 
indexing servers that keep track of all or most such records.  However we 
can have multiple indexing servers, which spider through such transaction 
records.  Thus the spider might start with me, and find all the people that 
I made public transactions with, and then for each of those people, find 
all the people that they made public transactions with.

A spider exercises no monopoly power, since anyone can set up a spider.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      MQrHOcZ42QomrtqWpHa5yFOd2cJ7Q1nP4/RpMmLU
      4IAi3ZRjN5ygCUfAKEIcHx/++oYWJoNr6TrN6ZJ+C




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sat Mar  3 18:48:53 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 20:48:53 -0600
Subject: AUSA Threatens 60 Minutes in Bell Case
In-Reply-To: <200103040059.TAA10434@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEMKCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Young said:

> From: http://cryptome.org/jdb-doj-cbs.htm
>
> "An Assistant US Attorney in Seattle has threatened a CBS
> 60 Minutes reporter who is investigating the prosecution
> of James Dalton Bell in Western Washington District Court,
> warning the reporter that a subpoena will be issued for his
> information if he continues to investigate the case and its
> broader ramifications.
>
> According to a confidential source, AUSA Robb London,
> the prosecutor of the Bell case, warned 60 Minutes reporter
> Adam Ciralsky that a subpoena would be issued to Ciralsky
> for information about persons he had spoken to about the
> case and what he had learned if Ciralsky continued with
> his investigation."

Your site:
<snip> "Unrelated to the Bell case, Ciralsky has been involved in a
long-running legal battle with the Central Intelligence Agency in a dispute
about his former employment in the legal department of the agency." <snip>

Bit of an understatement.

http://antipolygraph.org/litigation/ciralsky/ciralsky-complaint.shtml

By way of contrast: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/03/ag030101.html


-Aimee




From lists at politechbot.com  Sat Mar  3 17:56:51 2001
From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 20:56:51 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker ("network externality")
In-Reply-To: <000101c0a436$6671d7e0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>; from hallam@ai.mit.edu on Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:05:10PM -0500
References: <20010303010219.D3265@cluebot.com> <000101c0a436$6671d7e0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <20010303205651.A17727@cluebot.com>


Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the L-M work. Even if I were
so inclined, I read it years ago and I'm sure my memory has faded.

I was merely pointing out a flaw in your argument against it. The two
are distinct.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Sat Mar  3 17:59:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 20:59:35 -0500
Subject: If the SC isn't fooled by the technology (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010303083647.5925K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:38:46AM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010303083647.5925K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010303205935.B17727@cluebot.com>


On Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:38:46AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Sure it does Declan, because you don't get the catch doesn't mean it
> doesn't exist.

That is true. Then again, it is also true that a statement makes sense
just because you wish it to.

> But you're a journalist so it's not surprising you don't get it, you have
> a hard enough time getting quotes correct.

Yes, I lay awake at night struggling to master that technique.

-Declan




From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Mar  3 21:01:44 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:01:44 -0800
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <ad691c928d3f8eaa4123fa26e55cb36b@mixmaster.shinn.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010301204900.03f5cc50@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 08:21 AM 3/1/01 -0500, An Metet wrote:
>[Sorry about the name. "Pirate" satellites don't sound 'dangerous'
>enough to need shooting down.]
>
>
>Suppose can-sats WERE launched illegally, and then started broadcasting
><time synchronisation signals/OTP/other cypherpunk related> signals,
>along with a spoken commentary by Radio Free North America (so Joe
>Sixpack has an excuse when those nice detector van gentlemen knock on
>his door and ask why he's listening to 128.0 FM)

A more insidious plan would put up a fleet of retro-reflector satellites. 
Before Telstar two Echo aluminized plastic film balloon reflectors were 
launched.  Over 100ft in diameter they weighed about 50 lbs apiece and 
remained in orbit and operational for over a year, one using compressed gas 
and another using a sublimation-based generator to keep the structure inflated.

An upgraded reflector using a inflated array of smaller corner cubes would 
have much higher effective reflectivity due to a lower dispersion of the 
return signal then Echo.  An array of smaller cubes also increase the life 
span since they can be compartmentalized after inflation reducing the 
effects of micrometeorite punctures.  Depending upon orbital height such 
sats could be effectively used to communicate over metropolitan and larger 
distances.

Since its passive, there are no electronics to fail and no costs for ground 
control.  You can use most any UHF and higher frequency because its a 
broadband device.  This means many of the frequencies below 11 GHZ, which 
are not much affected by rain scatter and atmospheric absorption and now 
used for terrestrial microwave, can be reused with little or no 
interference because the beam path is largely orthogonal to the current 
users.  By having so much bandwidth available very broadband communication 
techniques like UWB may be entirely feasible.

Due to the narrow angle of the return beam's cone, only backyard sized 
dishes (maybe even the smaller "dish network" jobbies) married with 
inexpensive alt/azimuth mounts might be required at the receiving end. 
However, since the satellites are moving continuously communication would 
be problematic (and require better sky coverage then working geosynchronous 
sats) without a large number of birds and/or steerable beam receiving 
antennas.  Then again, with enough bandwidth spreading a low data rate (10s 
kbps) signal might be receivable from such a bird with a simple whip in the 
same way as GPS.

The transmitter end requires a considerably larger dish, to put the maximum 
amount of energy on the sat, but not beyond that used by advanced amateurs 
radio buffs doing moon bounce communications.  A maser transmitter with 
cavity modified to form a single, non-zero-order Bessel beam could reduce 
dispersion by an order of magnitude over the divergence angle of beams 
emerging from the dish using a Gaussian profile, but this is probably too 
exotic for non-commercial consideration.

steve




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Mar  3 21:03:10 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:03:10 -0800
Subject: _Godwin_ on Godwin
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEIFCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010301072808.01e92130@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010303210135.02b6b2f0@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 07:51 PM 3/1/2001 -0600, Aimee Farr wrote:
 > Even if 99 percent of all references to Nazis on the Internet were
 > appropriate and in-context, that would not prove anything, one way or
 > the other, as far as Godwin's Law is concerned

It would, however prove that most invocations of Godwin's law were 
inappropriate.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      v+VmGLQURCkp+LAXeAa14tC5SAhoJxLW372xlizv
      4qC+ubDjcg+vZ1FQDzX3xphtASsOK5YotjcNPSXIB




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Mar  3 23:12:53 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:12:53 -1000
Subject: June 2, 1999 OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON FROM 240
  ECONOMISTS ON ANTITRUST PROTECTIONISM
In-Reply-To: <20010304013808.A19482@cluebot.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193033.036f7250@flex.com>
 <v04220804b6c75f45b676@[198.4.94.244]>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193033.036f7250@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303211036.00c12e30@flex.com>


At 01:38 AM 3/4/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >On Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:32:32PM -1000, Reese wrote:
 >> Why are you sending this to the cypherpunks list like this, today?
 >>
 >> I'll ask moderators of all the other lists Matt x-posted to, to fwd my
 >> query to their lists, so proper discussion can ensue in all venues.
 >
 >I happen to be the owner of one of the lists to which Matt forwarded
 >the 1999 letter.
 >
 >I refuse to forward your "why are you sending this," on the grounds
 >that it continues an off-topic thread.

I have no problem with that.  I will ask though, which of the lists
Matt posted to, was yours - I'm too lazy to go back and look, and I
figure if you want to reply, you will.  If you don't, I can always
go look it up, heh, hi A:mee,,,

Reese




From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Mar  3 21:14:52 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:14:52 -0800
Subject: eSurvellance via cable modem?
In-Reply-To: <3AA1B459.8614652B@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <3AA00AD0.2DBFA92D@aelea.com>
 <5.0.0.25.0.20010303093123.03ef09c0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010303211436.03eed3b0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 09:20 PM 3/3/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>        Interesting tho that they make a point several times that they aren't
>under CALEA, but seem to be extremely ready to roll right over regardless,
>including for non-VoIP taps.

And this surprises?


>Steve Schear wrote:
>
> > At 09:30 PM 3/2/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> > >Doing a little research to be up to speed on cable...
> > >PacketCable is interesting, as it talks about online gaming, telephony,
> > >etc... but check out this part of the spec.
> > >
> > >
> > >http://www.packetcable.com/specs/pkt-sp-esp-I01-991229.pdf
> >
> > Nothing really surprising here.  This spec, as I understand it, applies
> > only to VoIP connections established through the service provider's Call
> > Management System (their equivalent of a PBX).  If users employ their own
> > SW to do call placement it doesn't come under the spec.  (Of course, that
> > means you also don't get the improved latency characteristics offered by
> > the ISP for their VoIP terminated calls).
> >
> > steve




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Mar  3 21:18:21 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:18:21 -0800
Subject: _Godwin_ on Godwin
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEIFCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010301072808.01e92130@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010303211255.01f5a4e0@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 07:51 PM 3/1/2001 -0600, Aimee Farr wrote:
 >  the need to remember the gravity of what the Nazis did.

But those invoking Godwin's law seldom do so because the gravity of Nazi 
crimes is being depreciated by some comparison.

Rather their objection is that because the nazi crimes were uniquely 
wicked, and X is not uniquely wicked, a comparison of nazis with X does not 
apply -- in other words that the evil of the nazis was unique, so we need 
learn no lessons from history.

Of course the evil of the nazis was far from unique, it was merely one of 
the larger of many similar twentieth century crimes -- the armenians, the 
kulaks, and so on and so forth.

The evil of the nazis is not unique.  Over and over again the same causes 
led to the same consequences, and the only way we can stop it from 
happening again and again is to pay attention.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      8rIOv31R23cArTvRP+H4laJZ238RGzPRQ2IRgEtB
      4zcsqJRIcD4yw6m1CUsBQdve3IYrCPh0H5rin15wo




From hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Sat Mar  3 19:20:47 2001
From: hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:20:47 -0600
Subject: eSurvellance via cable modem?
References: <3AA00AD0.2DBFA92D@aelea.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20010303093123.03ef09c0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <3AA1B459.8614652B@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


       Interesting tho that they make a point several times that they aren't
under CALEA, but seem to be extremely ready to roll right over regardless,
including for non-VoIP taps.

Steve Schear wrote:

> At 09:30 PM 3/2/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >Doing a little research to be up to speed on cable...
> >PacketCable is interesting, as it talks about online gaming, telephony,
> >etc... but check out this part of the spec.
> >
> >
> >http://www.packetcable.com/specs/pkt-sp-esp-I01-991229.pdf
>
> Nothing really surprising here.  This spec, as I understand it, applies
> only to VoIP connections established through the service provider's Call
> Management System (their equivalent of a PBX).  If users employ their own
> SW to do call placement it doesn't come under the spec.  (Of course, that
> means you also don't get the improved latency characteristics offered by
> the ISP for their VoIP terminated calls).
>
> steve




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Mar  3 21:29:48 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:29:48 -0800
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker
  ("network externality")
In-Reply-To: <000101c0a436$6671d7e0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <20010303010219.D3265@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010303212536.02bb20e0@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 06:05 PM 3/3/2001 -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
 > Also the fact that economists generally still appear to give the
 > QWERTY story credence may indicate ignorance or may simply mean that
 > they reject the L-M hypothesis.

I am unaware that economists continue to give the QWERTY story credence, 
and do not believe it.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      jEdFKNNSvCn94ugjqvbbemGK+xdjNf6v3oM++hRg
      4QeDuOI+UPftf4COJUcvz0W4VS2Ww0dCYmA2eTF4H




From freematt at coil.com  Sat Mar  3 18:46:43 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 21:46:43 -0500
Subject: Links for RE: Independent Institute Response To Phillip
 Hallam-Baker ("network externality")
Message-ID: <v04220800b6c75a147dd9@[198.4.94.226]>


For your convenience, here again are a few links that might be of 
interest to you:

http://independent.org/tii/content/briefs/BriefWLMS.html

http://www.independent.org/tii/content/pubs/review/TIR32_mck_shug.html

http://www.independent.org/tii/content/events/microsoft_rt_transcript.html

http://www.independent.org/tii/content/events/tech_innovat_rt_transcript.html

http://www.independent.org/tii/WorkingPapers/Code.html

Also as David Theroux <DTheroux at independent.org>, noted, Liebowitz 
and Margolis's scholarly articles can be found in the Journal of 
Economic Perspectives; Journal of Law, Economics and Organizations; 
Harvard Journal of Law and Technology; Journal of Law and Economics; 
New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics and the Law; Encyclopedia of Law 
and Economics; and elsewhere, or more conveniently in their seminal 
book, WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT:

http://www.independent.org/tii/catalog/cat_WLMS.html

In addition, more popular articles by them have appeared in Upside, 
Christian Science Monitor, Wall Street Journal, San Francisco 
Chronicle, Reason, etc.  Some of these are available on The 
Independent Institute's web site at the following:

http://www.independent.org/archive/technology.html

http://www.independent.org/archive/antitrust.html

So, again, the arguments are in these links. Once you have read them, 
please let David Theroux <DTheroux at independent.org> know how and why 
you differ.

Incidentally, The Independent Institute's advisory board 
(http://www.independent.org/tii/tii_info/advisors.html) has included 
Nobel Laureates in economics as well as many who are on the short 
list for such a Prize.

By the way, the 240 economists who signed The Independent Institute's 
Open Letter on Antitrust Protectionism 
(http://www.independent.org/tii/news/open_letter.html ) did not "deny 
the existence of network effects," and if you would simply read the 
letter itself, you would see this.  In fact, the words, "network 
effects," do not even appear in the Open Letter!  Furthermore, the 
Open Letter was not only about the Microsoft case, but as is stated, 
it was about "Headline-grabbing cases against Microsoft, Intel, Cisco 
Systems, Visa and MasterCard, along with a flurry of merger 
investigations now under way." The issue is about "path dependence" 
theory, not "network effects!"

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
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From freematt at coil.com  Sat Mar  3 18:59:38 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 21:59:38 -0500
Subject: June 2, 1999 OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON FROM 240 ECONOMISTS
 ON ANTITRUST PROTECTIONISM
Message-ID: <v04220804b6c75f45b676@[198.4.94.244]>


Concerned about a growing number of antitrust cases instigated by 
rival business firms, 240 distinguished economists signed an open 
letter to President Clinton that called for an end to speculative 
antitrust enforcement efforts. The ad, sponsored by The Independent 
Institute, appeared in the June 2, 1999, editions of The Washington 
Post and The New York Times.

AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON FROM 240 ECONOMISTS
ON ANTITRUST 
PROTECTIONISM

Dear President Clinton:

Antitrust is supposed to be 
about protecting consumers against higher
prices and other 
consequences of monopoly power.  Accordingly, the 
Justice
Department's Antitrust Division, the Federal Trade 
Commission, and state
attorneys general are vested with authority to 
defend competition and
protect the well-being of consumers.

The 
current spate of heightened antitrust activism seems to suggest 
that
anti-competitive business practices abound.  Headline-grabbing 
cases
against Microsoft, Intel, Cisco Systems, Visa and MasterCard, 
along with a
flurry of merger investigations now under way, would 
appear to demonstrate
the need for a vigorously enforced antitrust 
policy that will create checks
and balances to eliminate consumer 
harm.

However, consumers did not ask for these antitrust actions -- 
rival business
firms did.  Consumers of high technology have enjoyed 
falling prices,
expanding outputs, and a breathtaking array of new 
products and
innovations.  High technology markets are among the most 
dynamic and
competitive in the world, and it is a tribute to open 
markets and
entrepreneurial genius that American firms lead in so 
many of these
industries.  But, these same developments place heavy 
pressures on rival
businesses, which must keep pace or lose their 
competitive races.  Rivals
can legitimately respond by improving 
their own products or by lowering
prices.  Increasingly, however, 
some firms have sought to handicap their
rivals' races by turning to 
government for protection.

Where antitrust authorities respond to 
these protectionist demands, the
workings of markets are 
short-circuited.  Antitrust protectionism means
that market decisions 
about how to compete for consumers' favor are
displaced by 
bureaucratic and political decisions.  More of the energies of
firms 
are directed to politics, less to production and innovation. 

Successful innovators are penalized, scale economies are lost, 
and
competition is thwarted, not enhanced.  Instead of preventing 
prices from
rising, antitrust protectionism keeps prices from 
falling.

Many of these cases are based on speculation about some 
vaguely specified
consumer harm in some unspecified future, and many 
of the proposed
interventions will weaken successful U.S. firms and 
impede their
competitiveness abroad.  The cost-benefit test for 
antitrust has not been
met.  We urge antitrust authorities to abandon 
antitrust protectionism and
refrain from such speculative enterprises 
when actual consumer harm cannot
be shown.

Donald L. Alexander 
Western Michigan University
William R. Allen         University of 
California, Los Angeles
Lee J. Alston            University of 
Illinois
Ryan C. Amacher          University of Texas, Arlington
Gary 
M. Anderson         California State University, Northridge
William 
L. Anderson      North Grenville College
D. T. Armentano 
University of Hartford
George B. N. Ayittey     American 
University
Howard Baetjer, Jr.      George Mason University
Charles 
W. Baird         California State University, Hayward
Ray Ball 
University of Rochester
King Banaian             St. Cloud State 
University
William Barnett, II      Loyola University
L. Dwayne 
Barney         Boise State University
Daniel K. Benjamin 
Clemson University
James T. Bennett         George Mason 
University
Bruce L. Benson          Florida State University
David E. 
Bernstein       George Mason University
Michael L. Bognanno 
Temple University
Cecil E. Bohanon         Ball State University
Ben 
W. Bolch             Rhodes College
Thomas E. Borcherding 
Claremont Graduate University
Samuel Bostaph           University of 
Dallas
Donald J. Boudreaux      Foundation for Economic 
Education
Charles H. Breeden       Marquette University
Andrzej 
Brzeski          University of California, Davis
Richard C. K. 
Burdekin   Claremont McKenna College
Henry N. Butler 
University of Kansas
Colin D. Campbell        Dartmouth College
Noel 
D. Campbell         North Georgia College & State University
Thomas 
F. Cargill        University of Nevada
Phillip P. Caruso 
Western Michigan University
Ronald A. Cass           Boston 
University
Jeffrey R. Clark         University of Tennessee
William 
M. Clark         University of Oklahoma
Carl P. Close            The 
Independent Institute
R. Morris Coats          Nicholls State 
University
John Cochran             Metropolitan State College
Lloyd 
R. Cohen           George Mason University
Roy E. Cordato 
Campbell University
Jim F. Couch             University of North 
Alabama
K. Chris Cox             Nicholls State University
Eleanor D. 
Craig         University of Delaware
Robert G. Crawford       Brigham 
Young University
Jerry W. Dauterive       Loyola University
David G. 
Davies          Duke University
Louis De Alessi          University 
of Miami
Arthur S. De Vany        University of California, 
Irvine
Michael E. DeBow         Samford University
Henry G. Demmert 
Santa Clara University
Matthew S. DePoint       St. Cloud State 
University
Arthur M. Diamond, Jr.   University of Nebraska
Thomas J. 
DiLorenzo      Loyola College in Maryland
William R. Dougan 
Clemson University
William M. Doyle, Jr.    University of 
Dallas
Michael Eames            Santa Clara University
Robert B. 
Ekelund, Jr.   Auburn University
Jerome R. Ellig          George 
Mason University
Edward W. Erickson       North Carolina State 
University
Paul Evans               Ohio State University
William P. 
Field, Jr.    Nicholls State University
Darren Filson 
Claremont Graduate University
William A. Fischel       Dartmouth 
College
Arthur A. Fleisher, III  Metropolitan State College
Fred E. 
Foldvary         Santa Clara University
Robert L. Formaini 
University of Texas, Dallas
William J. Frazer        University of 
Florida
Lowell E. Gallaway       Ohio University
Gary M. Galles 
Pepperdine University
Roger W. Garrison        Auburn 
University
David E. R. Gay          University of Arkansas
R. Richard 
Geddes        Fordham University
William D. Gerdes        North 
Dakota State University
Joseph A. Giacalone      St. John's 
University
Adam Gifford, Jr.        California State University, 
Northridge
Thomas W. Gilligan       University of Southern 
California
Micha Gisser             University of New Mexico
Rodolfo 
A. Gonzalez      San Jose State University
Peter Gordon 
University of Southern California
Richard L. Gordon 
Pennsylvania State University
Gerald A. Gunderson      Trinity 
College
David D. Haddock         Northwestern University
Simon Hakim 
Temple University
J. Daniel Hammond        Wake Forest 
University
Steve H. Hanke           Johns Hopkins University
Ronald 
W. Hansen         Univerity of Rochester
Scott E. Harrington 
University of South Carolina
C. Lowell Harriss        Columbia 
University
Robert F. Hebert         Auburn University
Frank L. Hefner 
College of Charleston
Robert H. Heidt          Indiana 
University
David R. Henderson       Hoover Institution
Robert S. 
Herren         North Dakota State University
Robert Higgs 
The Independent Institute
Peter J. Hill            Wheaton 
College
George W. Hilton         University of California, Los 
Angeles
Randall G. Holcombe      Florida State University
John B. 
Horowitz         Ball State University
Ronald A. Howard 
Stanford University
Laurence R. Iannaccone   Santa Clara 
University
Gail A. Jensen           Wayne State University
Dennis A. 
Johnson        University of South Dakota
Ronald N. Johnson 
Montana State University
Benjamin Klein           University of 
California, Los Angeles
Daniel B. Klein          Santa Clara 
University
Alan E. Koczela          George Mason University
Robert 
Krol              California State University, Northridge
Lawrence A. 
Kudlow       American Skandia Life Assurance Corp.
Timur Kuran 
University of Southern California
David N. Laband          Auburn 
University
Deepak K. Lal            University of California, Los 
Angeles
Steven E. Landsburg      University of Rochester
Don C. 
Lavoie            George Mason University
Robert A. Lawson 
Capital University
Dwight R. Lee            University of 
Georgia
Gary D. Libecap          University of Arizona
Wesley J. 
Liebeler       University of California, Los Angeles
Stan J. 
Liebowitz        University of Texas, Dallas
Anthony K. Lima 
California State University, Hayward
Jody Lipford 
Presbyterian College
Dennis E. Logue          Dartmouth 
College
Edward J. Lopez          University of North Texas
John R. 
Lott, Jr.        University of Chicago
William R. Luckey 
Christendom College
Hugh H. Macauley         Clemson University
Paul 
G. Mahoney          University of Virginia
Michael T. Maloney 
Clemson University
Yuri N. Maltsev          Carthage College
Henry G. 
Manne           George Mason University
Stephen E. Margolis 
North Carolina State University
Nelson Mark              Ohio State 
University
Michael L. Marlow        California State Polytechnic 
University 
John G. Matsusaka        University of Southern 
California
Thomas H. Mayor          University of Houston
Nolan 
McCarty            Columbia University
Fred S. McChesney 
Cornell University
Deirdre N. McCloskey     University of Iowa
Paul 
W. McCracken        University of Michigan
Thomas Means 
San Jose State University
Roger E. Meiners         University of 
Texas, Arlington
David I. Meiselman       Virginia Tech 
University
Lloyd J. Mercer          University of California, Santa 
Barbara
Tracy C. Miller          Grove City College
Jeffrey D. Milyo 
Tufts University
Jeffrey A. Miron         Boston University
William 
C. Mitchell      University of Oregon
Michael Montgomery 
University of Maine
Carlisle E. Moody        College of William & 
Mary
Ronald L. Moomaw         Oklahoma State University
Thomas Gale 
Moore        Hoover Institution
Andrew P. Morriss        Case Western 
Reserve University
Michael Valdez Moses     Duke University
Craig M. 
Newmark         North Carolina State University
William A. Niskanen 
Cato Institute
Lydia D. Ortega          San Jose State 
University
Dale Osborne             University of Texas, Dallas
Evan 
Osborne             Wright State University
Allen M. Parkman 
University of New Mexico
Ernest C. Pasour, Jr.    North Carolina 
State University
Judd W. Patton           Bellevue University
Mark J. 
Perry            University of Michigan
Mary Bennett Peterson 
General Motors Corporation
William H. Peterson      Campbell 
University
Owen R. Phillips         University of Wyoming
Keith T. 
Poole           Carnegie Mellon University
Barry W. Poulson 
University of Colorado
B. Michael Pritchett     Brigham Young 
University
Richard W. Rahn          Novecon Corporation
David W. 
Rasmussen       Florida State University
George G. Reisman 
Pepperdine University
Alan Reynolds            Hudson 
Institute
Morgan O. Reynolds       Texas A & M University
Edward M. 
Rice           University of Washington
James R. Rinehart 
Francis Marion University
Shawn Ritenour           Southwest Baptist 
University
Paul Craig Roberts       Institute for Political 
Economy
Jerry K. Rohacek         University of Alaska
Charles K. 
Rowley        George Mason University
Randall R. Rucker 
Montana State University
Roy J. Ruffin            University of 
Houston
Gerard G. Russo          University of Hawaii
Kevin D. Sachs 
University of Cincinnati
Joseph T. Salerno        Pace 
University
Michael T. Saliba        Loyola University
David S. 
Saurman         San Jose State University
E. S. Savas 
Baruch College, C.U.N.Y.
Thomas R. Saving         Texas A & M 
University
Lawrence J. Sechrest     Sul Ross State University
Stephen 
Sheppard         Oberlin College
Stephen Shmanske         California 
State University, Hayward
William F. Shughart II   University of 
Mississippi
Olga Shvetsova           Washington University
Barry N. 
Siegel          University of Oregon
Randy T. Simmons         Utah 
State University
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Mark Toma                University of 
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George W. Trivoli        Jacksonville State 
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Charlotte 
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Karen I. Vaughn          George Mason 
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Richard K. Vedder        Ohio University
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**************************************************************************
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Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From freematt at coil.com  Sat Mar  3 19:18:16 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:18:16 -0500
Subject: AUSA Threatens 60 Minutes in Bell Case
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEMKCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEMKCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <v04220807b6c763abbf85@[198.4.94.244]>


"Aimee Farr" <aimee.farr at pobox.com> wrote:
><snip> "Unrelated to the Bell case, Ciralsky has been involved in a
>long-running legal battle with the Central Intelligence Agency in a dispute
>about his former employment in the legal department of the agency." <snip>
>
>Bit of an understatement.
>
>http://antipolygraph.org/litigation/ciralsky/ciralsky-complaint.shtml

I found the comment "First Amendment rights by Ciralsky and other 
Jewish-Americans as "pro-Israeli baggage" to be interesting-

>  20. In response to questioning about Ciralsky's treatment, a 
>high-ranking CIA official whose identity was masked recently 
>disclosed that the Agency uses a per se anti-Semitic profile 
>specifically to target American Jews at the CIA for disparate and 
>unlawful security and CI investigations and treatment. American 
>Jews, Ciralsky among them, have had their security clearances 
>revoked and have been fired by the CIA purely on account of the 
>Agency's suspicion that Jews pose a special security risk because of 
>a perceived divided loyalty to both the United States of America and 
>the State of Israel.
>21. According to the aforementioned CIA official, "the so-called 
>evidence that has been presented regarding a number of individuals 
>who, it's claimed, are spying for Israel . . . is very, very flimsy 
>indeed" and CIA officials are "casting too wide a net . . . using 
>tactics that are just not called for, and . . . are harming folks 
>who are not a problem."
>22. Ciralskyís CI and security files reveal that the CIA and the FBI 
>began with the assumption that Ciralsky and other committed American 
>Jews are disloyal Americans and should be treated as security risks. 
>A selective release of documents by the CIA on July 7, 1998 reveals 
>the following:
>a. official CIA records describe Ciralsky as a "rich Jewish" 
>employee with a "wealthy daddy";
>
>b. official CIA records compare Ciralsky to other "hard-line" Jews 
>at the CIA who "think in terms of 'us' versus 'them'";
>
>c. official CIA records refer to the simple exercise of First 
>Amendment rights by Ciralsky and other Jewish-Americans as 
>"pro-Israeli baggage" and a "CI issue" deserving of special 
>treatment;


Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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**************************************************************************




From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn  Sat Mar  3 07:13:57 2001
From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 23:13:57 +0800
Subject: PADLOCKS AND HARDWARE
Message-ID: <200103031509.f23F9L310375@ak47.algebra.com>


DEAR SIRS;

WE ARE A MANUFACTURER FOR THE PADLOCKS. WE HAVE BEEN SPECILIZING IN THE PRODUCING THE PADLOCKS FOR MANY YEARS. AND WE CAN SUPPLY MANY KINDS OF IRON AND PADLOCKS. THEIR BRANDS ARE "A88"; "AA88"; "TRI-NINE"; "OLYMPIC"; ""PANDA" AND SO ON. WE ALSO CAN PRODUCE AND SUPPLY THE PADLOCKS ACCORDING TO YOUR DRAWING AND BRANDS NAME. 
 IN THE MEANTIME, WE ALSO CAN SUPPLY MANY KINDS OF SEWING MACHINES; HARDWARE AND TOOLS; POWER TOOLS;CIRCULAR SAW BLADES; DIAMOND SAW BLADES; BAMBOO MATS AND SO ON .WE CAN SUPPLY ALL THE PRODUCTS IN GOOD QUALITY AND COMPETITIVE PRICES.  IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THEM, PLEASE VISIT OUR HOMEPAGE: WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM. THANK YOU.

BEST REGARD.

MR.ZHU JIAN-JIN
JINYUN LOCKS FACTORY
E-MAIL: JYSJJ at MAIL.LSPTT.ZJ.CN
Http:// WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM




From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn  Sat Mar  3 07:13:58 2001
From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 23:13:58 +0800
Subject: PADLOCKS AND HARDWARE
Message-ID: <200103031522.JAA17188@einstein.ssz.com>


DEAR SIRS;

WE ARE A MANUFACTURER FOR THE PADLOCKS. WE HAVE BEEN SPECILIZING IN THE PRODUCING THE PADLOCKS FOR MANY YEARS. AND WE CAN SUPPLY MANY KINDS OF IRON AND PADLOCKS. THEIR BRANDS ARE "A88"; "AA88"; "TRI-NINE"; "OLYMPIC"; ""PANDA" AND SO ON. WE ALSO CAN PRODUCE AND SUPPLY THE PADLOCKS ACCORDING TO YOUR DRAWING AND BRANDS NAME. 
 IN THE MEANTIME, WE ALSO CAN SUPPLY MANY KINDS OF SEWING MACHINES; HARDWARE AND TOOLS; POWER TOOLS;CIRCULAR SAW BLADES; DIAMOND SAW BLADES; BAMBOO MATS AND SO ON .WE CAN SUPPLY ALL THE PRODUCTS IN GOOD QUALITY AND COMPETITIVE PRICES.  IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THEM, PLEASE VISIT OUR HOMEPAGE: WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM. THANK YOU.

BEST REGARD.

MR.ZHU JIAN-JIN
JINYUN LOCKS FACTORY
E-MAIL: JYSJJ at MAIL.LSPTT.ZJ.CN
Http:// WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM




From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn  Sat Mar  3 07:14:03 2001
From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 23:14:03 +0800
Subject: PADLOCKS AND HARDWARE
Message-ID: <200103031509.HAA06003@toad.com>


DEAR SIRS;

WE ARE A MANUFACTURER FOR THE PADLOCKS. WE HAVE BEEN SPECILIZING IN THE PRODUCING THE PADLOCKS FOR MANY YEARS. AND WE CAN SUPPLY MANY KINDS OF IRON AND PADLOCKS. THEIR BRANDS ARE "A88"; "AA88"; "TRI-NINE"; "OLYMPIC"; ""PANDA" AND SO ON. WE ALSO CAN PRODUCE AND SUPPLY THE PADLOCKS ACCORDING TO YOUR DRAWING AND BRANDS NAME. 
 IN THE MEANTIME, WE ALSO CAN SUPPLY MANY KINDS OF SEWING MACHINES; HARDWARE AND TOOLS; POWER TOOLS;CIRCULAR SAW BLADES; DIAMOND SAW BLADES; BAMBOO MATS AND SO ON .WE CAN SUPPLY ALL THE PRODUCTS IN GOOD QUALITY AND COMPETITIVE PRICES.  IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THEM, PLEASE VISIT OUR HOMEPAGE: WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM. THANK YOU.

BEST REGARD.

MR.ZHU JIAN-JIN
JINYUN LOCKS FACTORY
E-MAIL: JYSJJ at MAIL.LSPTT.ZJ.CN
Http:// WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM




From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn  Sat Mar  3 07:14:05 2001
From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 23:14:05 +0800
Subject: PADLOCKS AND HARDWARE
Message-ID: <200103031512.HAA00411@cyberpass.net>


DEAR SIRS;

WE ARE A MANUFACTURER FOR THE PADLOCKS. WE HAVE BEEN SPECILIZING IN THE PRODUCING THE PADLOCKS FOR MANY YEARS. AND WE CAN SUPPLY MANY KINDS OF IRON AND PADLOCKS. THEIR BRANDS ARE "A88"; "AA88"; "TRI-NINE"; "OLYMPIC"; ""PANDA" AND SO ON. WE ALSO CAN PRODUCE AND SUPPLY THE PADLOCKS ACCORDING TO YOUR DRAWING AND BRANDS NAME. 
 IN THE MEANTIME, WE ALSO CAN SUPPLY MANY KINDS OF SEWING MACHINES; HARDWARE AND TOOLS; POWER TOOLS;CIRCULAR SAW BLADES; DIAMOND SAW BLADES; BAMBOO MATS AND SO ON .WE CAN SUPPLY ALL THE PRODUCTS IN GOOD QUALITY AND COMPETITIVE PRICES.  IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THEM, PLEASE VISIT OUR HOMEPAGE: WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM. THANK YOU.

BEST REGARD.

MR.ZHU JIAN-JIN
JINYUN LOCKS FACTORY
E-MAIL: JYSJJ at MAIL.LSPTT.ZJ.CN
Http:// WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM




From reeza at flex.com  Sun Mar  4 01:22:09 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 23:22:09 -1000
Subject: Opus Dei and the FBI
In-Reply-To: <20010304080647.6328.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303231153.00c12740@flex.com>


At 08:06 AM 3/4/01 +0000, drevil at sidereal.kz wrote:

 >including causing the deaths of two American agents in the KGB.

Do you know what the KGB is/was?
Do you know the gaff you've made, with this usage?

 >It's widely known that there is a significantly disproportionate
 >number of Mormons in the FBI, but not much is known about how much
 >influence Opus Dei might have at the FBI.  Like Opus Dei, the Mormon
 >Church supervises its members lives closely, and is secretive about
 >its own activities.

Red Alert,,,
*yawn*
*stretch*

 >Take a look at: http://www.mond.at/opus.dei/opus.dei.uo.faq.html for

No.

 >some unofficial, and probably biased, information about Opus Dei.

That's why.

 >Also take a look at their official website, www.opusdei.org, to get

No.

 >the official story, which is probably also biased.  Then draw your own
 >conclusions and ask your own questions.

No.  I question why you mistook cypherpunks for alt.conspiracy.fucking.kooks

 >I'm just bringing this up in this forum to see if anyone else has any
 >insight or information on this topic.

I recommend a tinfoil hat.  Here are some directions, save yourself,,,

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

Reese




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sat Mar  3 22:16:01 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 00:16:01 -0600
Subject: You have no idea 
In-Reply-To: <e19d94b27867ea945660aafc55392500@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEMPCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


A Nomen Nescio lectured:

> aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Elizabeth Farr) recited:

Ah. The "look it up" rule. _May's Law_.

My recital:

-[[We used to hear the expression "Look it up."

-[[When a child asks what a word means, "look it up."

-[[When someone asks where Borneo is located, "look it up."

-[[When a list member asks what a KG-84 is, "look it up."

-[[--Tim May

May's Law stands for the proposition that one should not aggravate Mr. May.



> >Of course, you have all watched this battle for many years, so you
> >have a longevity of insight that I don't have. Probably just the
> >same-ole-same-ole to you...
>
> Believe me, you have NO idea.

Obviously.


> Then, aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Elizabeth Farr) recited:
>
> >I can't figure out if you're irked by amateurish elicitation
> >tactics, or if you're trying to give me lessons in how to do better.
>
> I think you can probably figure it out.

I am receiving tutoring offlist. In the 4000 series.


> Ah, I remember the days when I was wet behind the ears on this list.

You are smarter than I am. I'm bleeding all over.


> The collision between the law and cypherpunks certainly creates an
> interesting reaction.

Yes. The PLUNK.

 	-Miss Farr




From declan at well.com  Sat Mar  3 22:38:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 01:38:08 -0500
Subject: June 2, 1999 OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON FROM 240 ECONOMISTS ON ANTITRUST PROTECTIONISM
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193033.036f7250@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:32:32PM -1000
References: <v04220804b6c75f45b676@[198.4.94.244]> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193033.036f7250@flex.com>
Message-ID: <20010304013808.A19482@cluebot.com>


On Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:32:32PM -1000, Reese wrote:
> Why are you sending this to the cypherpunks list like this, today?
> 
> I'll ask moderators of all the other lists Matt x-posted to, to fwd my
> query to their lists, so proper discussion can ensue in all venues.

I happen to be the owner of one of the lists to which Matt forwarded
the 1999 letter.

I refuse to forward your "why are you sending this," on the grounds
that it continues an off-topic thread.

-Declan




From alan at clueserver.org  Sun Mar  4 02:33:01 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 02:33:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Opus Dei and the FBI
In-Reply-To: <20010304080647.6328.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103040226180.11336-100000@clueserver.org>


On 4 Mar 2001 drevil at sidereal.kz wrote:

> It's widely known that there is a significantly disproportionate
> number of Mormons in the FBI, but not much is known about how much
> influence Opus Dei might have at the FBI.  Like Opus Dei, the Mormon
> Church supervises its members lives closely, and is secretive about
> its own activities.

There is a good reason that there are a large number of Mormons in the
service of the government.

Mormons are taught to obey authority from a young age. They are taught to
obey the government that is in power. They also have a very strong moral
code that is inflicted on them, as well as being taught not to drink or
smoke or have any of those other vices that might make them a risk to
those in power.  They only thing that might keep them out of higher office
is that they are taught to be honest.  (We won't go into the intelectual
dishonesty involved in the faith to begin with, but that is a rant for
another time.)

They also have been taught that the men of the church will save the
constitution in the last days.  (Which has a certain amount of irony,
since most high profile Mormons in public office spend a large amount of
time destroying the freedoms mentioned therein.)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From editor at newsletter.join4free.com  Sun Mar  4 05:15:53 2001
From: editor at newsletter.join4free.com (editor at newsletter.join4free.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 05:15:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Porn Star Celebs! => cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <200103041315.FAA02385@toad.com>

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If you did not request this email, please use the link below to unsubscribe:
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From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Sun Mar  4 06:38:15 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 06:38:15 -0800
Subject: Mixmaster ate my messages!!
Message-ID: <c0ab9516d9ba6f0e62d650f54c18a2b7@melontraffickers.com>


What's up with the mixmaster list from publius.net?
Why are half the remailers down, have the dead remailers been compromised?
I'm down to using just five remailers if I want to get my message thru!
Is there a better list?
Can I make my own lists?

This is the list of reliable mixmasters.

Last update: Wed 28 Feb 101 6:16:54 PST
mixmaster           history  latency  uptime
--------------------------------------------
austria        **-**+**+***    12:05 100.00%	<--
dizum          **-*********    13:35  99.99%	<--
randseed       **-+++++++--    38:33  99.98%	<--
shinn          **-*********    13:55  99.98%	<--
squirrel       ----------++  1:34:39  99.94%	
noisebox       ++-+*++*++++    24:59  99.93%	<--
farout         -----------   8:17:25  99.84%	
riot           -----------   5:40:34  99.34%	
cmeclax        -...-.-...-  21:54:53  99.29%	
lcs            +--+++--++    1:03:18  99.03%	
passthru       _.-+---- --   3:02:10  98.64%	
cracker         ------. - +  2:13:16  97.89%	
bruble2           _        158:04:25  47.34%
septic                      10:06:11   0.00%
xganon                       2:31:21   0.00%
bilgates                     1:31:07   0.00%
arick                        1:19:12   0.00%
mix                         17:45:02   0.00%
hyper2                       3:22:56   0.00%
orange                       1:41:01   0.00%
stealth                        32:31   0.00%
cracow                      65:12:15   0.00%
rot13                       40:19:05   0.00%

History key


# response in less than 5 minutes.
* response in less than 1 hour.
+ response in less than 4 hours.
- response in less than 24 hours.
. response in less than 2 days.
_ response in more than 2 days.




From roy at scytale.com  Sun Mar  4 05:54:01 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (roy at scytale.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 07:54:01 -0600
Subject: Tessier-Ashpool now has Neuroserver!!
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6c734ecf065@[207.111.241.1]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021814260.17918-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3AA1F499.10193.317FE21C@localhost>


On 3 Mar 2001, at 16:16, Tim May wrote:

> The sky above Hunter's Point was the color of television, tuned to a 
> dead channel.

Nice piece, Tim.
--
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy at scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
    PGP Key 0x1AF39331 :  71D5 2EA2 4C27 D569  D96B BD40 D926 C05E
                 Key available from pubkey at scytale.com
            I charge to process unsolicited commercial email




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sun Mar  4 00:06:47 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (drevil at sidereal.kz)
Date: 4 Mar 2001 08:06:47 -0000
Subject: Opus Dei and the FBI
Message-ID: <20010304080647.6328.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>



Not to get conspiratorial here, but this is an interesting subject
which I don't think has been explored very much.

Background: Opus Dei ("God's Work") is a Catholic order (or cult, as
its detractors would call it) which emphasizes strict obedience of its
members, close supervision of many aspects of its members' lives, and
a certain degree of secretiveness about its own activities.

It is known that FBI Director Louis Freeh is a member of Opus Dei, and
he sends one of his sons to an Opus Dei school.

Interestingly, former agent Robert Hanssen was also an Opus Dei
member.  This is peculiar because Opus Dei is stridently
anti-communist, and yet Hanssen was allegedly a spy for the KGB, who
allegedly did significant harm to American national security,
including causing the deaths of two American agents in the KGB.

It's widely known that there is a significantly disproportionate
number of Mormons in the FBI, but not much is known about how much
influence Opus Dei might have at the FBI.  Like Opus Dei, the Mormon
Church supervises its members lives closely, and is secretive about
its own activities.

Take a look at: http://www.mond.at/opus.dei/opus.dei.uo.faq.html for
some unofficial, and probably biased, information about Opus Dei.
Also take a look at their official website, www.opusdei.org, to get
the official story, which is probably also biased.  Then draw your own
conclusions and ask your own questions.

I'm just bringing this up in this forum to see if anyone else has any
insight or information on this topic.  I've tried to keep my comments
balanced and objective; I'm not trying to suggest some kind of Opus Dei
conspiracy to take over the FBI or anything else beyond the accepted
facts I referred to above.  I'm really just wondering if anyone else
has some more information about this topic.




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Mar  4 06:14:01 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 08:14:01 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Intel Claims 10Ghz Transistor
Message-ID: <3AA24DA9.9466AE17@ssz.com>

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/04/1336231.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From znewmarketing34789 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 08:17:59 2001
From: znewmarketing34789 at hotmail.com (znewmarketing34789 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 08:17:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: NEWEST CRAZE
Message-ID: <200103041617.IAA07190@toad.com>



Hey...Janet Here... We Haven't Talked In So Long!!  
How Have You Been?  Thought I would Forward you this email!

I usually delete these but I opened this one, like what I saw, 
and thought you would like to see this.

http://www.geocities.com/anewmarket9090/

IF THE LINK IS NOT HIGHLIGHTED OR YOU CANNOT CLICK ON IT.
COPY AND PASTE IT IN YOUR BROWSER.












From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Mar  4 08:28:07 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 08:28:07 -0800
Subject: Opus Dei and the FBI
In-Reply-To: <20010304080647.6328.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010304081809.02738b18@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 08:06 AM 3/4/2001 +0000, drevil at sidereal.kz wrote:
 > Background: Opus Dei ("God's Work") is a Catholic order (or cult, as
 > its detractors would call it) which emphasizes strict obedience of
 > its members, close supervision of many aspects of its members'
 > lives, and a certain degree of secretiveness about its own
 > activities.
 >
 > It is known that FBI Director Louis Freeh is a member of Opus Dei,
 > and he sends one of his sons to an Opus Dei school.
 >
 > Interestingly, former agent Robert Hanssen was also an Opus Dei
 > member.  This is peculiar because Opus Dei is stridently
 > anti-communist, and yet Hanssen was allegedly a spy for the KGB, who
 > allegedly did significant harm to American national security,
 > including causing the deaths of two American agents in the [CIA].

Secretive and conspiratorial organizations are exceptionally vulnerable to 
infiltration and takeover by other secretive conspiratorial groups.  This 
led to a peculiar situation among the numerous little trotskyist factions 
where each Trotskyite secret caucus contained an inner secret caucus 
controlled by yet another Trotskyite secret caucus hostile to the first 
secret caucus, and even though nothing much was at stake other than the 
official line to be upheld in pamphlets no one read, they invested huge 
energies in ever more complicated plots and counter plots, infiltrations 
and counter infiltrations.

It is entirely plausible that KGB has infiltrated Opus Dei, and Opus Dei 
has infiltrated the KGB, and both have probably infiltrated the CIA and 
FBI, who are also probably spying on each other.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      HRVDSQcQMqXMmVAdeNvKnjyQDLdYEzvF/tRARKPW
      4oW4SaHwDYcOMCVOHMpxvwPz6BuduEKno+YOKsY2z




From cashbyfax2412231 at aol.com  Sun Mar  4 08:28:12 2001
From: cashbyfax2412231 at aol.com (cashbyfax2412231 at aol.com)
Date: 4 Mar 2001 08:28:12 -0800
Subject: Into: Cash By Fax
Message-ID: <0067f1028160431WEBSRVR1@websrvr1.iHomeRoom.com>



hi there,
please take a moment to check out the newest cash offer.
cash is waiting for you!  Click Below 
Or copy the link and paste it in your browser

http://www.geocities.com/arushhour6767/




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Mar  4 08:54:42 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 08:54:42 -0800
Subject: _Godwin_ on Godwin
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010303211255.01f5a4e0@shell11.ba.best.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEIFCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
  <5.0.2.1.0.20010301072808.01e92130@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010304085442.007f5a90@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:18 PM 3/3/01 -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
>The evil of the nazis is not unique.  Over and over again the same causes 
>led to the same consequences, and the only way we can stop it from 
>happening again and again is to pay attention.

And stay armed.



.......
Unbeknown to the latter, Marks had already cracked General de Gaulle's
private cypher 
in a spare moment on the lavatory. 




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sun Mar  4 08:08:16 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:08:16 -0500
Subject: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker  ("network externality")
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010303212536.02bb20e0@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <000201c0a4c5$531e9680$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


Did they ever give it credence as the sole evidence on which the existence
of network effects and lock in exist?

I read the L-M evidence and came to a quite different conclusion. They
discounted all evidence pointing to the fact that a re-organized keyboard
could be more efficient as 'biased' but do not point to independent trials
that found QWERTY better.

The most obvious explanation for this is that the obvious costs of
retraining the typists compared to the possible advantage meant that nobody
thought it worth bothering to even *try* to break the QWERTY dominance.
Psychological foreclosure can often be effective as the real thing. When
everyone thought Apple was a gonner for sure the software houses deserted
the platform in droves. It took the return of Jobs to give Apple a chance of
avoiding chapter 11.

The other effect of risk of foreclosure is the principal driver in the
Internet industry. The risk of lock in is so clear that customers,
particularly enterprise customers look to avoid it at all costs. To sell to
an F500 company you have to generally fill in a 30-100 page RFP which
essentially boils down to 'does it do what we want' and 'will it lock us
into a proprietary product with high switching costs'.

Linux exists because of the fear of lock in. So for that matter does
Windows. It was the fear of OS/2 welded to proprietary IBM hardware that
forced the industry to adopt Windows in the first place.

That illustrates a second higher order 'lock in' effect, channel conflict.
The effects of vertical integration are obvious, so market dominant
suppliers in one market look to prevent a competitor gaining vertical
integration.

To the extent that the Independent Institute have a point company
strategists look to prevent a 'lock in' effect occurring. In most cases they
are successfull. The QWERTY parable is a vast simplification of what goes on
in the real world. But don't imagine for a second that the 'it does not
exist' fable they are attempting to peddle is true either.


	Phill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: James A. Donald [mailto:jamesd at echeque.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 12:30 AM
> To: Phillip Hallam-Baker; 'Declan McCullagh'
> Cc: 'Paul Spirito'; 'Matthew Gaylor'; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu;
> cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com; 'Colin
> A. Reed';
> 'Ken Brown'; 'David Theroux'
> Subject: RE: Independent Institute Response To Phillip Hallam-Baker
> ("network externality")
>
>
>      --
> At 06:05 PM 3/3/2001 -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>  > Also the fact that economists generally still appear to give the
>  > QWERTY story credence may indicate ignorance or may simply
> mean that
>  > they reject the L-M hypothesis.
>
> I am unaware that economists continue to give the QWERTY
> story credence,
> and do not believe it.
>
>      --digsig
>           James A. Donald
>       6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
>       jEdFKNNSvCn94ugjqvbbemGK+xdjNf6v3oM++hRg
>       4QeDuOI+UPftf4COJUcvz0W4VS2Ww0dCYmA2eTF4H
>
>




From schear at lvcm.com  Sun Mar  4 11:21:42 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 11:21:42 -0800
Subject: eSurvellance via cable modem?
In-Reply-To: <3AA064FB.368D5DB4@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <3AA00AD0.2DBFA92D@aelea.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010304111908.03ed79d0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 09:30 PM 3/2/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>Doing a little research to be up to speed on cable...
>PacketCable is interesting, as it talks about online gaming, telephony,
>etc... but check out this part of the spec.
>
>
>http://www.packetcable.com/specs/pkt-sp-esp-I01-991229.pdf

At least as interesting is the PacketCable security specification 
http://www.packetcable.com/specs/PKT-SP-SEC-I02-001229.pdf  Page 160 lays 
out the graphic details on how they can spy on customer communication.

steve




From tegvus at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 12:11:55 2001
From: tegvus at yahoo.com (tegvus at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:11:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Check it out!   cypherpunks                                                                                                                                                                . -WRPN
Message-ID: <200103042011.MAA08081@cyberpass.net>


Check it out!  cypherpunks
http://www.virtue.nu/azsunsu/
http://azsunsu.jobarecords.net
http://www.geocities.com/azsunsu/  

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flowers, As Seen on TV, and so much more.
There are sales, discounts, and special merchandise
from time to time.  Check back often for specials
that are really special.

There is an opportunity to get in on the ground
floor of a free ISP, pre-launch.


http://www.geocities.com/azsunsu/  
http://azsunsu.jobarecords.net
http://www.virtue.nu/azsunsu/
CHECK IT OUT!  cypherpunks
********************************************************************
Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email 
may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply 
with the word REMOVE in the subject line.

If you cypherpunks want direct AD service go to:
http://www.geocities.com/ult1ads/





From freematt at coil.com  Sun Mar  4 09:31:27 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:31:27 -0500
Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
In-Reply-To: <000201c0a4c5$531e9680$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <000201c0a4c5$531e9680$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <v04220800b6c827a4712f@[198.4.94.248]>


It occurred to me that this would be a good topic for an organized 
online debate.  The results of which could be posted around.

Jim Warren <jwarren at well.com> or "Jonathan Wallace" <jw at bway.net> 
would make good and fair moderators-  Jonathan especially so since he 
has already participated in a similar debate on my mailing list and 
on his online zine The Ethical Spectacle http://www.spectacle.org/ . 
In that debate-  Both participants were lawyers so they wrote rather 
extensive and good ground rules for the debate.  But any trusted 
third party would work.

A debate such as this will remove any "heat of the moment" commentary 
and might provide more light than heat?

What do you think?

Regards,  Matthew Gaylor-




**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sun Mar  4 09:45:10 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:45:10 -0500
Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
In-Reply-To: <v04220800b6c827a4712f@[198.4.94.248]>
Message-ID: <000401c0a4d2$dc301540$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


For the simple reason that Theroux has shown no interest at all in debating
the substance of his claim.

All that he has done is to repeatedly state that the issue has been decided
by 'experts' and published in 'peer reviewed' journals. He clearly does not
want to debate the issues with mere mortals.

		Phill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> [mailto:owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu]On Behalf Of Matthew
> Gaylor
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 12:31 PM
> To: Phillip Hallam-Baker; 'David Theroux'
> Cc: 'James A. Donald'; 'Declan McCullagh'; 'Paul Spirito'; 'Colin A.
> Reed'; 'Ken Brown'; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu;
> cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com; Jim Warren;
> Jonathan Wallace
> Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
>
>
> It occurred to me that this would be a good topic for an organized
> online debate.  The results of which could be posted around.
>
> Jim Warren <jwarren at well.com> or "Jonathan Wallace" <jw at bway.net>
> would make good and fair moderators-  Jonathan especially so since he
> has already participated in a similar debate on my mailing list and
> on his online zine The Ethical Spectacle http://www.spectacle.org/ .
> In that debate-  Both participants were lawyers so they wrote rather
> extensive and good ground rules for the debate.  But any trusted
> third party would work.
>
> A debate such as this will remove any "heat of the moment" commentary
> and might provide more light than heat?
>
> What do you think?
>
> Regards,  Matthew Gaylor-
>
>
>
>
> **************************************************************
> ************
> Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
> Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
> on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30
> messages per week)
> Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
> (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
> **************************************************************
> ************
>




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sun Mar  4 10:51:02 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:51:02 -0600
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
In-Reply-To: <e19d94b27867ea945660aafc55392500@hyperreal.pl>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENHCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


The Most Honorable Sir:


And the girl was amazed and reached out with both hands to take the lovely
toy; but the wide-pathed earth yawned there in the plain of Nysa, and the
lord, Host of Many, with his immortal horses sprang out upon her -- the Son
of Cronos, He who has many names.

Thou O Spirit, That Illumin, I did not invoke Thee, Thou from the first Wast
present, who first taught the chosen Seed. The trim-ankled pick flowers in
the fields of Eleusis, not the Fruit Of that Forbidden Tree. Do you secretly
put in the mouth sweet seeds? Long before Them, she knew of Thee.

Happy is he among men upon earth who has seen these mysteries; but she who
is uninitiate and who has no part in them, never has lot of like good things
once she is dead, down in the darkness and gloom.

May you and yours assert Eternal Providence, And justifie the wayes of God
to men.


Yours in respect and service,


Aimee E. Farr, Esq.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Anonymous
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 9:31 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject:
>
> *** PGP Signature Status:
> *** Signed: 2/28/01 4:27:07 PM
> *** Verified: 3/4/01 1:09:19 AM




From freematt at coil.com  Sun Mar  4 10:14:34 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:14:34 -0500
Subject: Robin Hoods of Cyberspace: A Philosopher Examines the Difference
 Between Good and Bad Hackers
Message-ID: <v04220805b6c83663e8fe@[198.4.94.228]>


This article from NYTimes.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/04/technology/04HACKER.html

Robin Hoods of Cyberspace: A Philosopher Examines the Difference 
Between Good and Bad Hackers

March 4, 2001

Reviewed by STEVEN JOHNSON

It can sometimes seem as if the number of people who have speculated
on the social implications of Linux, the free computer operating
system collectively engineered by thousands of programmers
worldwide, exceeds the number of people who have actually used
Linux itself. Ever since the open-source software movement entered
into the public consciousness in the late 90's, we've been awash in
prophesies about the end of the Windows era and the birth of a less
proprietary digital age. Together, the emergence of open-source
software and the related Napster music file sharing system
constitute the most significant technological development since the
arrival of the World Wide Web.

  Up to now, most ruminations on the impact of open-source software
have limited their view to the computer desktop itself: does the
stability of the Linux platform prove that open software
development models are intrinsically more stable than the
proprietary ones used by Microsoft? Is there an economic model that
can support the development of free software?

  These are important questions, but they don't do justice to the
most remarkable fact about the open-source movement: at the very
epicenter of New Economy capitalism, something that looks a great
deal like a wired version of communism has prospered beyond
anyone's wildest imagination. While private companies are free to
sell ''flavors'' of Linux, and to sell technical support, no one
owns Linux proper. It belongs to the people. If the Web served as a
launching pad for the Xtreme capitalism heralded in magazines like
Fast Company and Wired, the launching pad itself was partly built
by freely contributed collective labor.

  Itself something of a collaborative project, ''The Hacker Ethic:
And the Spirit of the Information Age'' begins with the premise
that the programmers behind the open-source movement (called
''hackers'' throughout the book) represent a ''spiritual challenge
to our time.'' As Pekka Himanen writes in his preface, ''the hacker
ethic is a new work ethic that challenges the attitude toward work
that has held us in its thrall for so long, the Protestant work
ethic, as explicated in Max Weber's classic 'The Protestant Ethic
and the Spirit of Capitalism.' ''

  ''The Hacker Ethic'' begins with a breezy prologue from the
legendary programmer behind the Linux revolution, Linus Torvalds,
centered on what he calls ''Linus's Law.'' (His theory: people are
motivated by ''survival,'' ''social life'' and ''entertainment.'')
Himanen, a philosopher of technology who teaches at the University
of Helsinki and at the University of California, Berkeley, then
presents a longer essay -- the bulk of the book, really -- on the
core attributes of the hacker ethic, contrasting them with Weber's
work and that of his modern disciples. The techno-sociologist
Manuel Castells arrives in the closing pages to deliver a somewhat
freeze-dried rendition of his grand theory on the difference
between today's ''network society'' and the industrial systems of
yore.

  Because Torvalds's contributions are so slender, and because
Castells has presented his ideas elsewhere, ''The Hacker Ethic''
needs to be judged primarily on the substance of Himanen's
argument: that the values associated with the open-source movement
present a significant challenge to the Protestant ethic. While
Himanen's text relies on almost no primary research in terms of
interviewing programmers, his survey of the core components of the
hacker ethic (which he calls the nethic) is as comprehensive and
instructive as any to date. Unlike the dutiful labor of Weber's
Protestant ethic, the nethic embraces flexible hours, creativity
and a passion for one's work. The nethic also disdains monetary
reward for one's achievements, preferring what the open-sourcers
call Egoboo -- the respect of one's peers. While Himanen can
present a strained image of hacker sainthood, he makes a persuasive
case that the nethic stands in direct opposition to the Weberian
tradition.

  But that opposition raises two questions. First, is the Protestant
work ethic still a useful category in modern industrialized
societies? Weber's theory had little room for today's frenzied
leisure-time consumption. (Sunday was a day of rest -- not the day
for PlayStation 2 and Old Navy.) We may be programming our TiVo's
with time-management skills that would have made the efficiency
expert Frederick Taylor proud, but surely there's a difference
between using those techniques to tape episodes of ''Temptation
Island'' and using them for crop rotation. The dominant culture may
still be clinging to older, Weberian notions of labor-as-duty, but
it certainly spends a great deal of energy persuading us to kick
back and live a little on the weekend. Himanen avoids dealing with
the prominence of today's consumer society by wishing it away with
the old ''false consciousness'' dismissals: ''Only when work uses
up all energy and people are too tired to enjoy the pursuit of
their passions are they ready to be reduced to the passively
receptive state suited for television.'' In other words, that
feeling you have of actually enjoying ''Seinfeld'' reruns -- that's
just an illusion.

  But even if you accept Himanen's most optimistic scenario -- a
band of impassioned hackers challenging the oppressive
establishment -- the question remains: What does it mean for the
rest of us? Can the playful, work-for-art's-sake nethic be
transferred to the analog world? For anyone who is excited about
the promise of the open-source revolution, that may well be the
most provocative question of all, and Himanen has meager answers
for it. ''The hacker open model,'' he writes, ''could be
transformed into a social model -- call it the open-resource model
-- in which someone announces: I have an idea, I can contribute
this much to it, please join me! . . . For example, I could
announce on the Net that I would be willing, once in a while, to
help some elderly person take care of things. I can announce that
kids can come and play at our house after school.''

  This is a nice idea, but hardly a radical break from, say, a
real-world bulletin board at a community center. Himanen has a
powerful grasp on that strangely intoxicating contradiction that is
open-source, but when it comes to potential extensions of that
model, he falls short. You can't help being let down to find that a
mainstream adoption of the hacker ethic might only make it easier
to find a baby sitter for the kids.

Steven Johnson is the co-founder of Feedmag.com and the author of
''Interface Culture.'' His next book, ''Emergence,'' will be
published in September.






/-----------------------------------------------------------------\


Visit NYTimes.com for complete access to the
most authoritative news coverage on the Web,
updated throughout the day.

Become a member today! It's free!

http://www.nytimes.com?eta

Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From BF at mindspring.com  Sun Mar  4 13:57:44 2001
From: BF at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 13:57:44 -0800
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
Message-ID: <3AA2BA58.5A16F393@mindspring.com>


At 12:51 PM 3/4/01 -0600, Aimee Farr wrote:
>The Most Honorable Sir:
>
>
>And the girl was amazed and reached out with both hands to take the
lovely
>toy; but the wide-pathed earth yawned there in the plain of Nysa, and
the
>lord, Host of Many, with his immortal horses sprang out upon her -- the
Son
>of Cronos, He who has many names.

Not bad, AF, but you're no John Young.






From bear at sonic.net  Sun Mar  4 14:00:11 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:00:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENHCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000@bolt.sonic.net>


On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

>The Most Honorable Sir:
>
>
>And the girl was amazed and reached out with both hands to take the lovely
>toy; but the wide-pathed earth yawned there in the plain of Nysa, and the
>lord, Host of Many, with his immortal horses sprang out upon her -- the Son
>of Cronos, He who has many names.
>
>Thou O Spirit, That Illumin, I did not invoke Thee, Thou from the first Wast
>present, who first taught the chosen Seed. The trim-ankled pick flowers in
>the fields of Eleusis, not the Fruit Of that Forbidden Tree. Do you secretly
>put in the mouth sweet seeds? Long before Them, she knew of Thee.
>
>Happy is he among men upon earth who has seen these mysteries; but she who
>is uninitiate and who has no part in them, never has lot of like good things
>once she is dead, down in the darkness and gloom.
>
>May you and yours assert Eternal Providence, And justifie the wayes of God
>to men.
>
>
>Yours in respect and service,
>
>
>Aimee E. Farr, Esq.
>

You appear to be completely mad.  I think I like you.  Sane people 
get so boring after a while.

				Bear




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar  4 12:25:44 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:25:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
In-Reply-To: <000401c0a4d2$dc301540$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010304142051.5925n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



The letter signed by the 'economists' is already prima facia evidence in
support of 'network externality' and 'path dependence' as real effects.

A debate would only be further evidence in favor of their existance.

I've read only a small part of the various URL's that have been forwarded,
and a major reason for these sorts of effects to be out there, which is
ignored in this debate as near as I can tell, is 'nobody wants to be
first' with respect to bucking the trend.

The MS case is a perfect example: "Nobody ever lost their job for buying
IBM."

The reality is that people knew they were purchasing sub-optimal
resources. Their hope was that market effects with respect to support and
software would make up any difference. Sometimes the solution that gets
selected is 'good enough' rather than 'best'.


On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

> For the simple reason that Theroux has shown no interest at all in debating
> the substance of his claim.
> 
> All that he has done is to repeatedly state that the issue has been decided
> by 'experts' and published in 'peer reviewed' journals. He clearly does not
> want to debate the issues with mere mortals.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From espol at wanadoo.es  Sun Mar  4 08:42:27 2001
From: espol at wanadoo.es (Dynamic Service)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:42:27 +0100
Subject: Would you like to make money on the internet?
Message-ID: <200103041652.KAA23203@einstein.ssz.com>


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From DTheroux at independent.org  Sun Mar  4 18:01:32 2001
From: DTheroux at independent.org (David Theroux)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:01:32 -0800
Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
In-Reply-To: <000401c0a4d2$dc301540$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <000401c0a4d2$dc301540$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <a05010401b6c8a0ff0de3@[10.0.0.2]>


Dear Phill,

Despite your repeated claims in this regard, we have presented the 
links to our work so that anyone can review this analysis themselves 
and make up their own minds.  Clearly you have not examined our book 
by Liebowitz and Margolis, WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT 
(http://independent.org/tii/content/briefs/BriefWLMS.html), and hence 
we are still waiting for you to so and then indicate how you believe 
the analysis by Liebowitz and Margolis might be erroneous.  Your 
otherwise objecting to this work simply because you do not agree with 
the conclusions is hardly the basis for any serious, scientific 
discussion of the merits of the work.

Best regards,

David

David J. Theroux
Founder and President
The Independent Institute
100 Swan Way
Oakland, CA 94621-1428
510-632-1366 Phone
510-568-6040 Fax
DTheroux at independent.org
http://www.independent.org

>For the simple reason that Theroux has shown no interest at all in debating
>the substance of his claim.
>
>All that he has done is to repeatedly state that the issue has been decided
>by 'experts' and published in 'peer reviewed' journals. He clearly does not
>want to debate the issues with mere mortals.
>
>		Phill
>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>>  [mailto:owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu]On Behalf Of Matthew
>>  Gaylor
>>  Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 12:31 PM
>>  To: Phillip Hallam-Baker; 'David Theroux'
>>  Cc: 'James A. Donald'; 'Declan McCullagh'; 'Paul Spirito'; 'Colin A.
>>  Reed'; 'Ken Brown'; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu;
>>  cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com; Jim Warren;
>>  Jonathan Wallace
>>  Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
>>
>>
>>  It occurred to me that this would be a good topic for an organized
>>  online debate.  The results of which could be posted around.
>>
>>  Jim Warren <jwarren at well.com> or "Jonathan Wallace" <jw at bway.net>
>>  would make good and fair moderators-  Jonathan especially so since he
>>  has already participated in a similar debate on my mailing list and
>>  on his online zine The Ethical Spectacle http://www.spectacle.org/ .
>>  In that debate-  Both participants were lawyers so they wrote rather
>>  extensive and good ground rules for the debate.  But any trusted
>>  third party would work.
>>
>>  A debate such as this will remove any "heat of the moment" commentary
>>  and might provide more light than heat?
>>
>>  What do you think?
>>
>>  Regards,  Matthew Gaylor-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  **************************************************************
>>  ************
>>  Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
>>  Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
>>  on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30
>>  messages per week)
>>  Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
>>  (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at
>>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
>>  **************************************************************
>>  ************
>>

-- 
David J. Theroux
Founder and President
The Independent Institute
100 Swan Way
Oakland, CA 94621-1428
510-632-1366 Phone
510-568-6040 Fax
DTheroux at independent.org
http://www.independent.org




From tcb at ga.prestige.net  Sun Mar  4 15:09:02 2001
From: tcb at ga.prestige.net (Timothy Brown)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:09:02 -0500
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000@bolt.sonic.net>;
  from bear@sonic.net on Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 02:00:11PM -0800
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENHCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
  <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010304180902.A1112@alcantara.dyndns.org>


> >Yours in respect and service,
> >
> >
> >Aimee E. Farr, Esq.
> >
> 
> You appear to be completely mad.  I think I like you.  Sane people 
> get so boring after a while.
> 

I think it might have something to do with the fact that we rarely see
females posting on cypherpunks.

						T




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sun Mar  4 17:48:31 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:48:31 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & Packet,
  et. al.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST

QUESTION #1.

You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.

1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:

(a) you bite the apple.
(b) you take the woman.
(c) you run away.
(d) a and b, but not c.
(e) b and c only.
(f) all of the above.
(g) none of the above.

2. Please justify your answer:


___________________________________________________________________.


Just curious....

	-Aimee




From gbroiles at netbox.com  Sun Mar  4 19:57:49 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 19:57:49 -0800
Subject: Opus Dei and the FBI
In-Reply-To: <20010304080647.6328.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010304195607.03424990@pop.well.com>


At 08:06 AM 3/4/2001 +0000, drevil at sidereal.kz wrote:
>It is known that FBI Director Louis Freeh is a member of Opus Dei, and
>he sends one of his sons to an Opus Dei school.
>
>Interestingly, former agent Robert Hanssen was also an Opus Dei
>member.  This is peculiar because Opus Dei is stridently
>anti-communist, and yet Hanssen was allegedly a spy for the KGB, who
>allegedly did significant harm to American national security,
>including causing the deaths of two American agents in the KGB.

Freeh and Hanssen attended the same church, along with Justice Scalia of
the US Supreme Court - Freeh and Hanssen were apparently acquainted
through church but not close friends, according to the NY Times at
<http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/25/national/25SPY.html>.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at netbox.com
"Organized crime is the price we pay for organization." -- Raymond Chandler




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sun Mar  4 18:23:51 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 21:23:51 -0500
Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b6c8a0ff0de3@[10.0.0.2]>
Message-ID: <000a01c0a51b$523551e0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


David,

	You still don't get it. 'Read my book' is not a valid move in a debate. If
you were to stand up in front of the Oxford Union and say 'my book proves
the case entirely' then sat down with no further elaboration you lose the
debate.

	You introduced the motion, you try to defend it. Nothing in any of the
references I have followed advances your claim in my view. Moreover since
you have not addressed my counter thesis or any of the specific objections
raised so far I don't see how raising further factual points would advance
the argument.

	At the moment the debate has moved onto what could be quite an interesting
digression on the counter-strategies employed to avoid lock-in.

	My principal objection however, as with Andrew is your apparent belief that
those who attempt to influence public policy do not have to justify their
theories to the public. Restating your conclusions does not constitute a
justification of them.

		Phill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Theroux [mailto:DTheroux at independent.org]
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 9:02 PM
> To: Phillip Hallam-Baker
> Cc: 'James A. Donald'; 'Declan McCullagh'; 'Paul Spirito'; 'Colin A.
> Reed'; 'Ken Brown'; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu;
> cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com; 'Jim Warren';
> 'Jonathan Wallace'; 'Matthew Gaylor'
> Subject: RE: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
>
>
> Dear Phill,
>
> Despite your repeated claims in this regard, we have presented the
> links to our work so that anyone can review this analysis themselves
> and make up their own minds.  Clearly you have not examined our book
> by Liebowitz and Margolis, WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT
> (http://independent.org/tii/content/briefs/BriefWLMS.html), and hence
> we are still waiting for you to so and then indicate how you believe
> the analysis by Liebowitz and Margolis might be erroneous.  Your
> otherwise objecting to this work simply because you do not agree with
> the conclusions is hardly the basis for any serious, scientific
> discussion of the merits of the work.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David
>
> David J. Theroux
> Founder and President
> The Independent Institute
> 100 Swan Way
> Oakland, CA 94621-1428
> 510-632-1366 Phone
> 510-568-6040 Fax
> DTheroux at independent.org
> http://www.independent.org
>
> >For the simple reason that Theroux has shown no interest at
> all in debating
> >the substance of his claim.
> >
> >All that he has done is to repeatedly state that the issue
> has been decided
> >by 'experts' and published in 'peer reviewed' journals. He
> clearly does not
> >want to debate the issues with mere mortals.
> >
> >		Phill
> >
> >>  -----Original Message-----
> >>  From: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> >>  [mailto:owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu]On Behalf Of Matthew
> >>  Gaylor
> >>  Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 12:31 PM
> >>  To: Phillip Hallam-Baker; 'David Theroux'
> >>  Cc: 'James A. Donald'; 'Declan McCullagh'; 'Paul
> Spirito'; 'Colin A.
> >>  Reed'; 'Ken Brown'; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu;
> >>  cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com; Jim Warren;
> >>  Jonathan Wallace
> >>  Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
> >>
> >>
> >>  It occurred to me that this would be a good topic for an organized
> >>  online debate.  The results of which could be posted around.
> >>
> >>  Jim Warren <jwarren at well.com> or "Jonathan Wallace" <jw at bway.net>
> >>  would make good and fair moderators-  Jonathan especially
> so since he
> >>  has already participated in a similar debate on my
> mailing list and
> >>  on his online zine The Ethical Spectacle
> http://www.spectacle.org/ .
> >>  In that debate-  Both participants were lawyers so they
> wrote rather
> >>  extensive and good ground rules for the debate.  But any trusted
> >>  third party would work.
> >>
> >>  A debate such as this will remove any "heat of the
> moment" commentary
> >>  and might provide more light than heat?
> >>
> >>  What do you think?
> >>
> >>  Regards,  Matthew Gaylor-
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  **************************************************************
> >>  ************
> >>  Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
> >>  Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words
> subscribe FA
> >>  on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30
> >>  messages per week)
> >>  Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
> >>  (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at
> >>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
> >>  **************************************************************
> >>  ************
> >>
>
> --
> David J. Theroux
> Founder and President
> The Independent Institute
> 100 Swan Way
> Oakland, CA 94621-1428
> 510-632-1366 Phone
> 510-568-6040 Fax
> DTheroux at independent.org
> http://www.independent.org
>




From dropped_packet at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 21:41:46 2001
From: dropped_packet at hotmail.com (Dropped Packet)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:41:46 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <F2393b6uIU1Gj03oHMw0000a6d4@hotmail.com>


from http://www.msnbc.com/news/539158.asp

Relevant excerpt:

>      The FBI was able to decrypt the letter quickly, possibly because 
> >Hanssen allegedly had sent his handlers an earlier letter that included 
> >a copy of his encryption key, and it was obtained in a search of his 
> >property.

Wonder if he was using PGP and his passphrase was weak?
If not, should this be as unsettling as it seems? (assuming that the story 
as reported is more accurate than not (which may be quite a leap of course))




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From sethf at MIT.EDU  Sun Mar  4 18:44:25 2001
From: sethf at MIT.EDU (Seth Finkelstein)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 21:44:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [references!] Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
Message-ID: <200103050244.VAA00078@oobleck.mit.edu>


	It's already been much-debated. It's just hard to find the
debate among the quasi-spam of the cult proselytizing:

[EH == Economic History]

EH.Res: FORUM: Path-dependence
http://www.eh.net/lists/eh.res/forum3/
http://www.eh.net/lists/eh.res/forum3/nov/index.html

EH.Res: Forum: More on QWERTY
http://www.eh.net/lists/eh.res/forum6/index.shtml
http://www.eh.net/lists/eh.res/forum6/mar/index.html
http://www.eh.net/lists/eh.res/forum6/aug/index.html

See particularly an article by one author debunking some L-M "debunking"

"I have considerable sympathy with the criticism by L&M that some of the
arguments for path dependency have been based "on poorly documented
evidence that dissolves upon closer inspection." But their account in
JLEO of this particular history is subject to the same critique."

http://www.eh.net/lists/eh.res/forum3/nov/0049.html
[Richard S. Rosenbloom, Harvard Business School, for credentials]

Also:
"Path dependence and the quest for historical economics:
one more chorus of the ballad of QWERTY by Paul A. David"
http://www.eh.net/Publications/pathdepend.shtml

"At last, a remedy for chronic QWERTY-skepticism! by Paul A. David"
http://www.eh.net/Publications/remedy.shtml

__
Seth Finkelstein  Consulting Programmer  sethf at sethf.com  http://sethf.com
Latest essay: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)
http://www.spectacle.org/0201/sethf.html




From editor at newsletter.join4free.com  Sun Mar  4 22:08:40 2001
From: editor at newsletter.join4free.com (editor at newsletter.join4free.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:08:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Join4Free - Sunday Night Nymphos!  => cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <200103050608.WAA11587@toad.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
Size: 2491 bytes
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From New.Life.Business at sirius.infonex.com  Mon Mar  5 00:20:23 2001
From: New.Life.Business at sirius.infonex.com (New.Life.Business at sirius.infonex.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:20:23
Subject: Internet Business
Message-ID: <200103050617.WAA13618@sirius.infonex.com>


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________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne Million Emails for Free 

Order Report # 5 From:

R. B.
Box. 21115, 
Grande Prairie 
Alberta, T8V-6W7
Canada
________________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, 
continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to
roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down
on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF 
E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income 
you can generate from this business !!! 

=============================================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just 
received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your 
life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money 
in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the 
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 
\\~
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your 
name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or 
more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the 
more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, 
I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunityto become 
financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

======================== MORE TESTIMONIALS ===================

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I 
received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I 
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and 
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my 
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made 
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she 
had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 
147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her 
''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=============================================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind 
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't 
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I 
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 
in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not 
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
============================================================= 
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if 
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get 
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money 
came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
=============================================================
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little 
cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days 
the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the 
end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, 
Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================================

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !


=============================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office 
of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, 
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.







From New.Life.Business at cyberpass.net  Mon Mar  5 00:21:01 2001
From: New.Life.Business at cyberpass.net (New.Life.Business at cyberpass.net)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:21:01
Subject: Internet Business
Message-ID: <200103050620.WAA04777@cyberpass.net>


Dear Friend:

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an
investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
====================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an
entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if
it really can make people money.\\~ The show also investigated whether or not
the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS 
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was
approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I
finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00
in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New
Jersey. 

=======================================================
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in.
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a
total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the
program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to
success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change 
anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 

===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ======== 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====


For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE 
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT 
LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and
resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from
you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your disk in case
something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority 
of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see 
how it does
not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you
alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives 
names on 
all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this 
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So 
Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you 
do, it will not work 
for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE 
MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

=============================================================

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on 
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you 
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will 
provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send 
bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much 
more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also 
assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be 
much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out 
hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with
this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people 
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 
50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded 
and ordered Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE 
RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF 
MONEY ! 

============================================================= 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU 
MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half 
or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are 
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, 
many people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
=============================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of 
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do 
is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day 
service on all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address 
on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the 
report. 

===========AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. 
CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is 
concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those 
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==========================================================
REPORT # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net 

Order Report #1 from:

R. G. Lintner
5328 W. ST. RD. 10
Wheatfield, IN  46392
USA
________________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 

E. YAP
50 First Street, Suite 1
San Francisco, CA 94105
USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3: The Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net 

Order Report # 3 from : 

S. Santos
32 Cross Street
San Francisco, CA 94112
USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: How to become a Millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net 

Order Report # 4 from: 

C.J. Kalata
P.O. Box 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA
________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne Million Emails for Free 

Order Report # 5 From:

R. B.
Box. 21115, 
Grande Prairie 
Alberta, T8V-6W7
Canada
________________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, 
continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to
roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down
on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF 
E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income 
you can generate from this business !!! 

=============================================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just 
received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your 
life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money 
in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the 
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 
\\~
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your 
name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or 
more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the 
more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, 
I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunityto become 
financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

======================== MORE TESTIMONIALS ===================

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I 
received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I 
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and 
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my 
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made 
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she 
had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 
147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her 
''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=============================================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind 
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't 
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I 
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 
in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not 
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
============================================================= 
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if 
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get 
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money 
came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
=============================================================
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little 
cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days 
the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the 
end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, 
Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================================

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !


=============================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office 
of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, 
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.







From New.Life.Business at ibmx3.netnitco.net  Mon Mar  5 00:21:04 2001
From: New.Life.Business at ibmx3.netnitco.net (New.Life.Business at ibmx3.netnitco.net)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:21:04
Subject: Internet Business
Message-ID: <200103050618.f256I5U61498@ibmx3.netnitco.net>


Dear Friend:

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an
investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
====================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an
entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if
it really can make people money.\\~ The show also investigated whether or not
the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS 
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was
approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I
finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00
in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New
Jersey. 

=======================================================
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in.
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a
total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the
program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to
success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change 
anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 

===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ======== 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====


For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE 
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT 
LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and
resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from
you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your disk in case
something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority 
of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see 
how it does
not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you
alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives 
names on 
all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this 
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So 
Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you 
do, it will not work 
for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE 
MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

=============================================================

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on 
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you 
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will 
provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send 
bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much 
more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also 
assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be 
much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out 
hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with
this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people 
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 
50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded 
and ordered Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE 
RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF 
MONEY ! 

============================================================= 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU 
MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half 
or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are 
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, 
many people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
=============================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of 
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do 
is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day 
service on all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address 
on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the 
report. 

===========AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. 
CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is 
concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those 
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==========================================================
REPORT # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net 

Order Report #1 from:

R. G. Lintner
5328 W. ST. RD. 10
Wheatfield, IN  46392
USA
________________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 

E. YAP
50 First Street, Suite 1
San Francisco, CA 94105
USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3: The Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net 

Order Report # 3 from : 

S. Santos
32 Cross Street
San Francisco, CA 94112
USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: How to become a Millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net 

Order Report # 4 from: 

C.J. Kalata
P.O. Box 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA
________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne Million Emails for Free 

Order Report # 5 From:

R. B.
Box. 21115, 
Grande Prairie 
Alberta, T8V-6W7
Canada
________________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, 
continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to
roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down
on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF 
E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income 
you can generate from this business !!! 

=============================================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just 
received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your 
life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money 
in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the 
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 
\\~
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your 
name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or 
more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the 
more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, 
I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunityto become 
financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

======================== MORE TESTIMONIALS ===================

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I 
received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I 
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and 
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my 
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made 
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she 
had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 
147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her 
''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=============================================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind 
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't 
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I 
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 
in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not 
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
============================================================= 
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if 
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get 
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money 
came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
=============================================================
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little 
cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days 
the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the 
end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, 
Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================================

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !


=============================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office 
of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, 
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.







From New.Life.Business at ibmx3.netnitco.net  Mon Mar  5 00:21:08 2001
From: New.Life.Business at ibmx3.netnitco.net (New.Life.Business at ibmx3.netnitco.net)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:21:08
Subject: Internet Business
Message-ID: <200103050618.f256IJU61537@ibmx3.netnitco.net>


Dear Friend:

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an
investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
====================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an
entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if
it really can make people money.\\~ The show also investigated whether or not
the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS 
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was
approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I
finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00
in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New
Jersey. 

=======================================================
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in.
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a
total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the
program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to
success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change 
anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 

===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ======== 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====


For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE 
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT 
LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and
resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from
you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your disk in case
something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority 
of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see 
how it does
not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you
alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives 
names on 
all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this 
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So 
Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you 
do, it will not work 
for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE 
MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

=============================================================

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on 
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you 
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will 
provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send 
bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much 
more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also 
assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be 
much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out 
hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with
this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people 
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 
50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded 
and ordered Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE 
RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF 
MONEY ! 

============================================================= 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU 
MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half 
or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are 
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, 
many people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
=============================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of 
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do 
is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day 
service on all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address 
on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the 
report. 

===========AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. 
CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is 
concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those 
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==========================================================
REPORT # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net 

Order Report #1 from:

R. G. Lintner
5328 W. ST. RD. 10
Wheatfield, IN  46392
USA
________________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 

E. YAP
50 First Street, Suite 1
San Francisco, CA 94105
USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3: The Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net 

Order Report # 3 from : 

S. Santos
32 Cross Street
San Francisco, CA 94112
USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: How to become a Millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net 

Order Report # 4 from: 

C.J. Kalata
P.O. Box 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA
________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne Million Emails for Free 

Order Report # 5 From:

R. B.
Box. 21115, 
Grande Prairie 
Alberta, T8V-6W7
Canada
________________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, 
continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to
roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down
on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF 
E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income 
you can generate from this business !!! 

=============================================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just 
received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your 
life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money 
in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the 
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 
\\~
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your 
name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or 
more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the 
more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, 
I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunityto become 
financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

======================== MORE TESTIMONIALS ===================

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I 
received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I 
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and 
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my 
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made 
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she 
had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 
147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her 
''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=============================================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind 
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't 
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I 
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 
in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not 
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
============================================================= 
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if 
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get 
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money 
came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
=============================================================
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little 
cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days 
the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the 
end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, 
Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================================

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !


=============================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office 
of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, 
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.







From New.Life.Business at ibmx3.netnitco.net  Mon Mar  5 00:21:37 2001
From: New.Life.Business at ibmx3.netnitco.net (New.Life.Business at ibmx3.netnitco.net)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:21:37
Subject: Internet Business
Message-ID: <200103050618.f256IhU61600@ibmx3.netnitco.net>


Dear Friend:

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an
investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
====================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an
entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if
it really can make people money.\\~ The show also investigated whether or not
the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS 
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was
approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I
finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00
in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New
Jersey. 

=======================================================
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in.
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a
total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the
program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to
success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change 
anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 

===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ======== 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====


For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE 
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT 
LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and
resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from
you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your disk in case
something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority 
of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see 
how it does
not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you
alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives 
names on 
all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this 
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So 
Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you 
do, it will not work 
for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE 
MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

=============================================================

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on 
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you 
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will 
provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send 
bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much 
more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also 
assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be 
much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out 
hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with
this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people 
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 
50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded 
and ordered Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE 
RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF 
MONEY ! 

============================================================= 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU 
MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half 
or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are 
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, 
many people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
=============================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of 
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do 
is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day 
service on all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address 
on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the 
report. 

===========AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. 
CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is 
concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those 
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==========================================================
REPORT # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net 

Order Report #1 from:

R. G. Lintner
5328 W. ST. RD. 10
Wheatfield, IN  46392
USA
________________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 

E. YAP
50 First Street, Suite 1
San Francisco, CA 94105
USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3: The Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net 

Order Report # 3 from : 

S. Santos
32 Cross Street
San Francisco, CA 94112
USA
_________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: How to become a Millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net 

Order Report # 4 from: 

C.J. Kalata
P.O. Box 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA
________________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne Million Emails for Free 

Order Report # 5 From:

R. B.
Box. 21115, 
Grande Prairie 
Alberta, T8V-6W7
Canada
________________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, 
continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to
roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down
on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF 
E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income 
you can generate from this business !!! 

=============================================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just 
received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your 
life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money 
in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the 
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 
\\~
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your 
name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or 
more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the 
more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, 
I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunityto become 
financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

======================== MORE TESTIMONIALS ===================

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I 
received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I 
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and 
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my 
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made 
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she 
had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 
147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her 
''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=============================================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind 
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't 
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I 
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 
in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not 
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
============================================================= 
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if 
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get 
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money 
came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
=============================================================
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little 
cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days 
the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the 
end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, 
Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================================

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !


=============================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office 
of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, 
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.







From klacz at mailbox.co.yu  Mon Mar  5 00:26:16 2001
From: klacz at mailbox.co.yu (casey walker)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 00:26:16 -0800
Subject: Stop wasting money on Other Advertising Sources
Message-ID: <200103050826.AAA22871@mail21.bigmailbox.com>

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From regnikavin at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 16:37:03 2001
From: regnikavin at hotmail.com (kavin regni)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:37:03 -0000
Subject: hack
Message-ID: <F28V8Ec0QchstfRYUnu0000bc0d@hotmail.com>


I really want your help.
could you hack e-mail: kgaardlykke at hotmail.com and send me the password?
It would be great:)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From nobody at hyperreal.pl  Sun Mar  4 18:37:32 2001
From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous)
Date: 5 Mar 2001 02:37:32 -0000
Subject: An Athenian Longhorn?
Message-ID: <4037a506de5a561d0e1143165dbbc747@hyperreal.pl>

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From espol at wanadoo.es  Sun Mar  4 18:32:00 2001
From: espol at wanadoo.es (Dynamic Service)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 03:32:00 +0100
Subject: Would you like to make money on the internet?
Message-ID: <200103030003.SAA12785@einstein.ssz.com>


Start earning $20-$200 every day, working less than 30 minutes a day on your 
computer. No obligation, limited time offer! Act NOW and you'll get our $295 
Internet Income course ABSOLUTELY FREE.

If interested reply with YES in the subject line. This is the only time you'll 
receive this great opportunity.

Thank you for your time.

Dynamic Service







From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Mon Mar  5 03:34:04 2001
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 04:34:04 -0700
Subject: Mixmaster ate my BALLS!!
Message-ID: <9bb7b32b8dad873169bfec729bd11701@noisebox.remailer.org>


No, the OPERATING remailers are the ones that have been compromised.

Teatwo: Rest In Peace Always.
--
Many times [the radio operator] used his 'turned' codes to inform 
his superiors that he was under coercion. However, every time he did 
this the operators back in Blighty attributed these to errors in 
transmission...___...__..._...._.__.._... [Operation North Pole]

> 
> What's up with the mixmaster list from publius.net?
> Why are half the remailers down, have the dead remailers been compromised?
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I'm down to using just five remailers if I want to get my message thru!
> Is there a better list?
> Can I make my own lists?
> 
> This is the list of reliable mixmasters.
> 
> Last update: Wed 28 Feb 101 6:16:54 PST
> mixmaster           history  latency  uptime
> --------------------------------------------
> austria        **-**+**+***    12:05 100.00%	<--
> dizum          **-*********    13:35  99.99%	<--
> randseed       **-+++++++--    38:33  99.98%	<--
> shinn          **-*********    13:55  99.98%	<--
> squirrel       ----------++  1:34:39  99.94%	
> noisebox       ++-+*++*++++    24:59  99.93%	<--
> farout         -----------   8:17:25  99.84%	
> riot           -----------   5:40:34  99.34%	
> cmeclax        -...-.-...-  21:54:53  99.29%	
> lcs            +--+++--++    1:03:18  99.03%	
> passthru       _.-+---- --   3:02:10  98.64%	
> cracker         ------. - +  2:13:16  97.89%	
> bruble2           _        158:04:25  47.34%
> septic                      10:06:11   0.00%
> xganon                       2:31:21   0.00%
> bilgates                     1:31:07   0.00%
> arick                        1:19:12   0.00%
> mix                         17:45:02   0.00%
> hyper2                       3:22:56   0.00%
> orange                       1:41:01   0.00%
> stealth                        32:31   0.00%
> cracow                      65:12:15   0.00%
> rot13                       40:19:05   0.00%
> 
> History key
> 
> 
> # response in less than 5 minutes.
> * response in less than 1 hour.
> + response in less than 4 hours.
> - response in less than 24 hours.
> . response in less than 2 days.
> _ response in more than 2 days.




From dumb at beer.fridge.com  Sun Mar  4 21:16:38 2001
From: dumb at beer.fridge.com (How stupid do I look)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 05:16:38 +0000
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & Packet, et. al.
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200103042344.f24NiDa14311@choice.drlogick.com>



While trolling for wife-beaters, Aimee Farr (aimee.farr at pobox.com) wrote:
> CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> 
> QUESTION #1.
> 
> You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.

Not enough information.

Please clarify the following ambiguities:

	What kind of an apple is it?
 
	Is she a witch?  Magic scares me.

	Is the woman a het, or a mongoose bull-dyke?

	Whose definition of beautiful are we using here, anyways?

	Why would I be walking through the woods alone?

> 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> 
> (a) you bite the apple.
> (b) you take the woman.
> (c) you run away.
> (d) a and b, but not c.
> (e) b and c only.
> (f) all of the above.
> (g) none of the above.

> 2. Please justify your answer:

Assuming a spherical woman...





From From325263 at yourdomain.com  Mon Mar  5 07:00:29 2001
From: From325263 at yourdomain.com (From325263 at yourdomain.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 07:00:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200103051500.HAA24095@toad.com>


Hi,

I have knowledge of an individual who will benefactor (pay)
our fees ($1000) into a well renowned company. Last name 
of benefactor and name of company has been excluded to 
make sure we get no one in trouble.  See toll free Fax On Demand.
If you don't have a fax machine, send a self addressed stamped
evelope to the address below.

USA ONLY!


Looks like creditable opportunities are finally coming our way.

I'm looking for 5 associates to participate in a
benefactoring opportunity which you are positioned 
at the highest level (Executive Business Pack) of 
a 12 year old company. A young lady has received funds for her 
humanitarian project to benefactor hundreds of trustworthy 
individuals who wish to participate.  There is no out-of-pocket 
expenses incurred so this becomes a "no-brainer" for all of us. 
I also know some of you only consider passive type programs, 
but this is one passive opportunity you can't miss because there 
is no out-of-pocket money here, folks.

Here's the "Bottom Line":

1) You receive a $1000.00 for an Executive Business Pack when our
benefactor receives your first 5 people (they join free too) in your 
organization.

2) When you receive your 1st $1500.00 from the company, you mail
(return)
the $1000.00 back to Delores and profit $500.00.

3) Your 5 people must invite/share this with 5 of their most 
trustworthy associates before they can receive their $1000.00 
Executive Business Pack and the effort continues 5 levels 
deep for your organization.

4) What is the name of the company?  (see FOD)

5) What are the products? I'm not making claims, but 
testimonies have stated the recovery of several immune 
deficiencies which have been alleviated by the use of these 
products and I'm eager to try them myself.

6) Additionally each member of this benefactoring opportunity has their
monthly auto-ship of $202 also paid for by Delores and when you receive
your 2nd check of $3000 (approx) you repay the $202 from that check and
keep the rest, and so on each month. Delores actually signs the credit card
information for the monthly (not you). I realistically believe if we share this to
our 5 trustworthy people who do same, we should all average a consistent 
$3000 to $4000 a month - if not MORE!!!!.

Pull the fax-on-demand at 877-627-4720 (it's FREE, an 800# as you 
can see) and decide for yourself.   Keep in mind, I am totally aware 
that some of you are working diligently on other programs. However, 
where can you find someone offering an opportunity ($1000) to 
start a residual income type business?

Oh, you have to use your correct fax number and when it 
asks for the ext # or telephone number, or whatever it asks for,
just put in your fax number again. I think you will have to put in 
your fax number twice.  Include the 1 and the area code!

Once you have pulled the fax on demand, Fill out the Associate 
Agreement and Autoship form with the following information:

---> Your name and ID # (your Social Security Number)
---> Leave the Sponsor and Placement information BLANK
---> Mark the box next to "Yes I want to enroll in AutoShip" and then      
         indicate which week of the month you want your shipment to go out.
---> Fill in the order information indicating you want item #6913. 
     (the executive business Pack, $995)
---> Leave Payment information blank, our benefactor is paying!!
---> Sign the application once in the Autoship/order information area
     and then print and sign your name at the very bottom.  Be sure
     to date it.
--> IMPORTANT!!  Leave the Sponsor and Placement information BLANK!!!

Finally, mail both pages of the agreement to:
Home Business Opportunity Group:
306 Spring Street
Hendersonville, NC 28739


Oh, by the way, only one person per household can receive the $1000 
benefactor Executive Business Pack position. You are my first selected
members who will be on my first level (1st come, 1st serve any of you 
beyond my top 5 will be placed under other people so that everyone gets 
some help in getting their 5. This is so simple to get 5, simply ask anyone 
if they want a monthly income of $2000 to $5000 a month without doing 
anything! 

This is a phenomenal company and it is incredible to get this type of 
opportunity, so hurry and get your application in!


CAREFULLY fill Out the Application-->Leaving Payment and Sponsor 
Areas BLANK for the benefactor.

Thank You Delores for being our benefactor.


Daniel Lee
The Home Business Opportunity Group


________________________________________
To be removed, please reply with remove
as the subject.






From byzant at prodigy.net  Mon Mar  5 07:04:11 2001
From: byzant at prodigy.net (DOMINICK  ISAAC)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 07:04:11 -0800
Subject: .
Message-ID: <000501c0a585$8ac6ed60$bd796f40@oemcomputer>


Do you have any college degree references?




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar  5 05:48:12 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 07:48:12 -0600
Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- A Map For The Future: Fundamental Limit Defines Future Opportunities For Silicon Nanoelectronics
Message-ID: <3AA3991C.E5BA7D79@ssz.com>


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/02/010221071842.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From memberservices at casio.com  Mon Mar  5 08:10:49 2001
From: memberservices at casio.com (memberservices at casio.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:10:49 -0800
Subject: Casio Membership Information
Message-ID: <005bd5710160531CASIOWEB1@casioweb1.casiousa.net>



Welcome to Casio!  Thank you Cypher for becoming a member of the Casio
Online Store.  Please retain this e-mail for future reference; it contains
your username and password - your key to all the Unexpected Extras at
Casio.com.

When you log in to the Casio Website you may obtain information about your
order status, product updates and coming soon - PRODUCT WATCH LIST!

If you have any difficulty shopping or navigating the site, check out our
new, more extensive Help Desk section.  Still don't find the help you need?
Just click on the Help Desk email link to email us your question.

You may have also elected to stay informed of Casio news, if so, we will
periodically send you e-mails regarding updates, coupons, special promotions
or specific product information based upon the product interests you
indicated.

Again, thanks for your membership at Casio.com - expect the Unexpected
Extra.

Sincerely,

Casio, Inc.
Member Services

User Name cypherpunks
Password  cypherpunks




From BF at mindspring.com  Mon Mar  5 08:23:20 2001
From: BF at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:23:20 -0800
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
Message-ID: <3AA3BD78.E5CD198C@mindspring.com>


At 06:09 PM 3/4/01 -0500, Timothy Brown wrote:

>I think it might have something to do with the fact that we rarely see
>females posting on cypherpunks.

Or those that let the gullible infer femaleness via their choice of nym.

...On the internet, no one can tell you're an ephemeral distributed
psyop prankster...








From BF at mindspring.com  Mon Mar  5 08:27:17 2001
From: BF at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:27:17 -0800
Subject: hack
Message-ID: <3AA3BE65.D7D09C6C@mindspring.com>


At 12:37 AM 3/5/01 -0000, kavin regni wrote:
>I really want your help.
>could you hack e-mail: kgaardlykke at hotmail.com and send me the
password?
>It would be great:)

Please send your credit card info to this address and we will bill you
only $9.95 (USD)
for this service.  We use a secure server, so your info will be safe.









From bear at sonic.net  Mon Mar  5 08:30:02 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:30:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
  Packet,  et. al.
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103050825200.26081-100000@bolt.sonic.net>


On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

>CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
>
>QUESTION #1.
>
>You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
>magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
>
>1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
>
>(a) you bite the apple.
>(b) you take the woman.
>(c) you run away.
>(d) a and b, but not c.
>(e) b and c only.
>(f) all of the above.
>(g) none of the above.
>

None of the above. 

>2. Please justify your answer:

I'd take the apple and thank her; politeness demands nothing less.  
As to the rest, these things have to be discussed.  Or, if it turns 
out we have no language in common, at the very least I could offer 
her a pomegranate (perhaps with the word 'KALLISTI' carved into it) 
and see how she reacts.

>Just curious....

I agree.  You are very curious indeed. 

>	-Aimee




From hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Mon Mar  5 07:21:29 2001
From: hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:21:29 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & Packet, et. 
 al.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com> <200103042344.f24NiDa14311@choice.drlogick.com>
Message-ID: <3AA3AEE8.EB9F16BF@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


How stupid do I look wrote:

> Not enough information.
>
> Please clarify the following ambiguities:
>
>         What kind of an apple is it?

    A magic one, of course.

>
>
>         Is she a witch?  Magic scares me.

     Why? A female spirit appears to you, that's a "Good Thing", eh?

>
>
>         Is the woman a het, or a mongoose bull-dyke?

      Only one way to find out, but probably if she's appearing to you nude,
it's obvious.

>
>
>         Whose definition of beautiful are we using here, anyways?

      Wouldn't she have the capability of appearing just right for you?

>
>
>         Why would I be walking through the woods alone?

       Good grief, why not? Are you afraid of the dark too? I prefer being
in the woods alone, or perhaps with my dog. And She Who Speaks often
whispers in my ear at such times, which probably won't happen if others are
near, unless they happen to be tuned in to the same frequency at the moment.

>
>
> > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> >
> > (a) you bite the apple.
> > (b) you take the woman.

       Both of the above, or perhaps the reverse -- take the apple and bite
the woman.

>
> > (c) you run away.
> > (d) a and b, but not c.
> > (e) b and c only.
> > (f) all of the above.
> > (g) none of the above.
>
> > 2. Please justify your answer:
>

           I'm always looking for encounters with female spirits.





From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Mon Mar  5 00:41:02 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:41:02 +0100
Subject: Mixmaster ate my messages!!
Message-ID: <97ce0e98f44bf4a6e2125de9ebe0adf1@remailer.privacy.at>


> What's up with the mixmaster list from publius.net?

Use [r/m]list at mixmaster.shinn.net.




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Mon Mar  5 00:44:02 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:44:02 +0100
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
  Packet, et.	 al.
Message-ID: <310853a85c68a0910d710a81a075d973@remailer.privacy.at>


Aimee Farr wrote:

> QUESTION #1.

> You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.

> 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:

> (a) you bite the apple.
> (b) you take the woman.
. . .
> (g) none of the above.

G.

> 2. Please justify your answer:

You bite the woman, then take the apple.




From dumb at beer.fridge.com  Mon Mar  5 01:48:59 2001
From: dumb at beer.fridge.com (How stupid do I look)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:48:59 +0000
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & Packet, et. al.
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200103050420.f254Kio16053@choice.drlogick.com>



Answer number two:

Quoting Aimee Farr (aimee.farr at pobox.com):
> CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST

> QUESTION #1.

... would make a great conversation starter for a group of cypherpunks to 
consider over coctails.
 
> You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> 
> 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> 
> (a) you bite the apple.
> (b) you take the woman.
> (c) you run away.
> (d) a and b, but not c.
> (e) b and c only.
> (f) all of the above.
> (g) none of the above.
> (h) as above, so below.
 
> 2. Please justify your answer:
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________.
> 
> 
> Just curious....

What a coincidence.  So am I.
 
> 	-Aimee




From bfk at mindspring.com  Mon Mar  5 10:09:17 2001
From: bfk at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:09:17 -0800
Subject: US GPS source code copied
Message-ID: <3AA3D64D.E62D54@mindspring.com>


Hacker snags U.S. satellite
          software, codes

          By Robert Lemos CNET News.com

          An international investigation has turned up evidence that a
hacker stole
          source code for classified software used by the U.S. Defense
Department
          to control satellites and guide rockets.

                           Law enforcement searched the servers of
software
                           consultant Carbonide on Feb. 6 on suspicion
that a
                           hacker used the company's Freebox Web e-mail
                           service to distribute the source code to
others, said
                           Erik Wickbom, CEO of the Stockholm,
                           Sweden-based Carbonide.

                           "We didn't know it was there, and we didn't
know it
                           was source code," he told CNET News.com on
          Friday.

          Although the search occurred nearly a month ago, it did not
become public
          until Friday.

          After the four-hour search, the team of Swedish law
enforcement and FBI
          computer experts left with copies of the evidence.
"Immediately after, we
          deleted the source code," Wickbom said.

          The source code was part of a software program known as
OS/COMET,
          which is used by the military to control satellites and
rockets, Reuters
          reported Friday.

          The U.S. Air Force has plans to use the software to control
the NAVSTAR
          Global Positioning System from its Colorado Springs Monitor
Station,
          which is part of the Air Force Space Command, according to a
December
          press release from the software's creator, Exigent Software
Technology.

          The source code appears to have been stolen from the U.S.
Naval Research
          Laboratory in Washington D.C. on Dec. 24. The military
detected the
          intrusion three days later, Reuters reported.

          The FBI would not comment on the theft or the investigation.

          The stolen source code is apparently a fragment of the
complete
          application. That's because Wickbom said law enforcement
official could
          fit the data on a single floppy disk, about 1.44MB of space.

          Although the hacker had used the name "Leeif" on the system,
Wickbom
          said the account was stolen. Wickbom added that the trail
apparently
          points to a German university as the source of the intrusion
into the
          Freebox network, but that a skilled attacker could easily have
broken in
          elsewhere.

          "He knew what he was doing absolutely," Wickbom said.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20010302/tc/hacker_snags_u_s_satellite_software_codes_1.html




From danp at tscouts.com  Mon Mar  5 08:20:09 2001
From: danp at tscouts.com (Daniel J. Polak)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:20:09 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <LLEFKGHACAIIKDBCIHDNEEOPCIAA.danp@tscouts.com>

auth 790cdb11 subscribe cypherpunks danp at tscouts.com

 

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From lvild at usa.net  Mon Mar  5 10:22:41 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 5 Mar 2001 10:22:41 PST
Subject: [RE: American Bar Association - 1 click patents]
Message-ID: <20010305182241.20716.qmail@nwcst293>


Start at the monetary and fiscal system,
whatever you do with the patent system will fall short
to the financial jamming coming from the first two.


"Phillip H. Zakas" <pzakas at toucancapital.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I've been away on business and only now started to read this thread, so
> sorry for the lag...
> 
> The entire patent system needs an overhaul.  I've been personally
struggling
> with the trade-offs of filing for patents (relating to network routing
> technology) vs. keeping the ideas trade secret vs. releasing a subset to
the
> public domain.  My attorneys have suggested filing "blocking patents" as a
> defensive strategy to ensure you can continue to use your technology, in
the
> event a competitor comes up with the same/similar idea.  The patents
> themselves aren't really earth-shattering, but the fact that one has to
file
> for patents just to stay in business in case a competitor files competiting
> claims in the future is extrememly frustrating, because the patent is
> essentially a blueprint for anyone to use the technology for himself.  Here
> are some observations i've made:
> 
> - Determining patent infrigement of technology patents is extremely
> difficult without obtaining the source code of a competitor's product.  How
> on earth can one determine if one is "borrowing" your routing algorithm or
> your mpls variation?  This is almost impossible...so where's the patent
> protection?
> 
> - patent protection varies across the globe.  the best strategy is to file
> in the US, Japan and EU.  but even then the levels of patent protection
vary
> in each area, and offer no defense in countries such as India (used for
many
> outsourced development projects.)
> 
> - I would have preferred it if i could keep an idea a trade secret and
> register that trade secret with the USPTO so that it would be considered
> prior art and thus block future patent claims already covered by my trade
> secret.
> 
> - Biotechnology patents are especially troubling.  On the one hand one can
> patent a gene sequence discovered to be vaguely related to, say, breast
> cancer.  On the other hand that gene sequence is usually derived from some
> volunteer's dna, but that person has no rights to the resulting value of
the
> patent!  Worse still, claims in biotech are very vague and broad simply
> because biotech is an emerging science.  I'd bet most of you haven't heard
> that proteomics seems to becoming more important than genomics over the
last
> six months...does this mean a gene sequence, including all of the proteins
> it interacts with, are covered by the original patent even though
proteomics
> was unknown even two years ago??
> 
> Anyway, this subject is very irritating.  As current venture capitalist
> (temporary until i launch my own start up) I do understand the protection
> patents afford investors and the catalyst patents are for attracting
> capital.  Without capital there would be no interesting technology or
> biotech developments at the rate at which we've enjoyed them over the last
> 50 years.  However even venture capitalists would prefer my "register trade
> secrets" model for high tech projects OVER the current patent system.  I
> still don't know what the right answer is for biotech patents.
> 
> phillip
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 1:48 PM
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abanet.org/journal/mar01/fstate.html
> --
>    The Laws of Serendipity:
> 
>    1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
>       for something.
> 
>    2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
>       first be engaged in making an inferior one.
> 
>    Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
>    James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
>    Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062
> 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From bear at sonic.net  Mon Mar  5 10:24:47 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:24:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <MAEJKAJCIGHONDJLKPFPEEJOCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103051023220.32037-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

>- Biotechnology patents are especially troubling.  On the one hand one can
>patent a gene sequence discovered to be vaguely related to, say, breast
>cancer.  On the other hand that gene sequence is usually derived from some
>volunteer's dna, but that person has no rights to the resulting value of the
>patent!  Worse still, claims in biotech are very vague and broad simply
>because biotech is an emerging science.  I'd bet most of you haven't heard
>that proteomics seems to becoming more important than genomics over the last
>six months...does this mean a gene sequence, including all of the proteins
>it interacts with, are covered by the original patent even though proteomics
>was unknown even two years ago??

I wonder if it would be worth filing a 'blocking patent' on your own 
genome and all its applications, just to prevent some other bozo from 
patenting it. 

				Ray




From djb at gci.net  Mon Mar  5 11:43:38 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:43:38 -0900
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & Packet, et. al.
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <008201c0a5ac$93065e80$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


> CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> QUESTION #1.

I'll play, and I won't even hide behind a nym.  (Nothing against persistant
nyms, but I snicker when people create new ones to make flippant statements
they don't want associated with their persistant ones.  Cowards....)

> You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
>
> 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
>
> (a) you bite the apple.
> (b) you take the woman.
> (c) you run away.
> (d) a and b, but not c.
> (e) b and c only.
> (f) all of the above.
> (g) none of the above.
>
> 2. Please justify your answer:


(a) is right out.  The apple is obviously bait.  Nobody with more brain than
a rat bites obvious bait unless it's really tasty looking.  I don't like
apples that much no matter how beautiful the fruit bowl is.

(b) is trickier.  Is she bait too?  Probably.  But see comment about tasty
looking above.  Risk exists we wind up measuring IQ of little head.  Also,
is she a witch?  Wow, it gets more interesting.  Witches can be a LOT of fun
and are worth taking risks for.  Only trouble is she'll toss yer shoes in
the long run unless you can at least respect her gods, and she's probably
going to catch you if you fake it.  Finally, "take"?  That's ambiguous.  If
we are talking offer and acceptance, with meeting of minds and whatever,
that's one thing.  If we are talking "Me Og, Og bonk yummy witch and drag
back to cave" it's rather another thing.  I would say circumstances and
literary tradition suggest the former, unless body language and subsequent
conversation indicate otherwise.  So leave (b) on the list of possible
answers.

(c) is right out.  BZZZT!  Wrong answer.  How many times in your life do
fairy tale things happen to you?  Reward is commensurate with risk -- "and
he and the beautiful witch lived happily ever after" is a possible outcome.
Not to diminish the possibility of "and the ugly toad never left the swamp
until the end of his days" but c'mon man, if you've got an ounce of
adventure in your soul you'll stick around a bit and scope things out before
skedaddling like a wuss.

(a) and (b) together are out, because (a) is out.  Basic logic.  So (d) is
out.

(e) is out because (c) is out.  Also because it's rude.  A gentleman should
stick around for coffee or better yet breakfast, and should promise to call,
and then should DO it -- at least once.  (Christ, that sounds like something
out of "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long" -- I must be getting old.)

(f) and (g) are unsatisfactory for the reasons expressed above.

So it looks like (b), by simple process of elimination.  Next question?

-- Daniel





From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Mar  5 08:29:11 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:29:11 -0500
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <3A9D47E2.F919E8A5@dev.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <MAEJKAJCIGHONDJLKPFPEEJOCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



I've been away on business and only now started to read this thread, so
sorry for the lag...

The entire patent system needs an overhaul.  I've been personally struggling
with the trade-offs of filing for patents (relating to network routing
technology) vs. keeping the ideas trade secret vs. releasing a subset to the
public domain.  My attorneys have suggested filing "blocking patents" as a
defensive strategy to ensure you can continue to use your technology, in the
event a competitor comes up with the same/similar idea.  The patents
themselves aren't really earth-shattering, but the fact that one has to file
for patents just to stay in business in case a competitor files competiting
claims in the future is extrememly frustrating, because the patent is
essentially a blueprint for anyone to use the technology for himself.  Here
are some observations i've made:

- Determining patent infrigement of technology patents is extremely
difficult without obtaining the source code of a competitor's product.  How
on earth can one determine if one is "borrowing" your routing algorithm or
your mpls variation?  This is almost impossible...so where's the patent
protection?

- patent protection varies across the globe.  the best strategy is to file
in the US, Japan and EU.  but even then the levels of patent protection vary
in each area, and offer no defense in countries such as India (used for many
outsourced development projects.)

- I would have preferred it if i could keep an idea a trade secret and
register that trade secret with the USPTO so that it would be considered
prior art and thus block future patent claims already covered by my trade
secret.

- Biotechnology patents are especially troubling.  On the one hand one can
patent a gene sequence discovered to be vaguely related to, say, breast
cancer.  On the other hand that gene sequence is usually derived from some
volunteer's dna, but that person has no rights to the resulting value of the
patent!  Worse still, claims in biotech are very vague and broad simply
because biotech is an emerging science.  I'd bet most of you haven't heard
that proteomics seems to becoming more important than genomics over the last
six months...does this mean a gene sequence, including all of the proteins
it interacts with, are covered by the original patent even though proteomics
was unknown even two years ago??

Anyway, this subject is very irritating.  As current venture capitalist
(temporary until i launch my own start up) I do understand the protection
patents afford investors and the catalyst patents are for attracting
capital.  Without capital there would be no interesting technology or
biotech developments at the rate at which we've enjoyed them over the last
50 years.  However even venture capitalists would prefer my "register trade
secrets" model for high tech projects OVER the current patent system.  I
still don't know what the right answer is for biotech patents.

phillip


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 1:48 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents



http://www.abanet.org/journal/mar01/fstate.html
--
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062





From ter3wal at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 11:31:56 2001
From: ter3wal at hotmail.com (ter3wal at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:31:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: I have dreamed of this for many years....                                                                                                               . -RRRT
Message-ID: <200103051931.LAA07006@cyberpass.net>


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*****************************************
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with the word REMOVE in the subject line.

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http://www.geocities.com/ult1ads/





From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Mar  5 08:59:07 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:59:07 -0500
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
  Packet,  et. al.
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <MAEJKAJCIGHONDJLKPFPIEJPCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


offer a pear in return.

or better yet, recall what happens in the movies when one encounters a
'naked magic woman holding an apple in the dark woods': bizarre death.  Run
in the other direction as fast as your legs could carry you, all the while
letting out the primordal scream you know sounds feminine to the
'non-magical' (better than peeing your pants anyway.)

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Aimee Farr
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 8:49 PM
To: Ray Dillinger; Timothy Brown; dropped_packet at hotmail.com
Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & Packet,
et. al.



CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST

QUESTION #1.

You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.

1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:

(a) you bite the apple.
(b) you take the woman.
(c) you run away.
(d) a and b, but not c.
(e) b and c only.
(f) all of the above.
(g) none of the above.

2. Please justify your answer:


___________________________________________________________________.


Just curious....

	-Aimee




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Mar  5 04:33:01 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:33:01 +0000
Subject: Network crypto is not enough: One example of why.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021814260.17918-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3AA3877D.6037732C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


A touching faith that no muggers read cypherpunks. Or, perhaps more
importantly, no-one who might be in the market for cheap 2nd-hand
computers.

Ray Dillinger wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, John Young wrote:
> 
> >Ray,
> >
> >Please tell the make and model of the laptop, where it
> >was lifted and other details that would help a good
> >samaritan recognize it as what you say it is and has
> >in its innards.
> 
> It is a compaq armada m700, with 128M memory and 6G
> hard drive.  It got kiped in San Francisco, on the
> western edge of a neighborhood known as hunter's point.
> It has already been reported to the appropriate police,
> but that's mainly pro forma; in the recovery of such
> items they are nearly useless.
> 
> The application is called "Neuroserver".  It exists in
> a full GUI development environment/compiler (NSAE) and
> a windows service (NSRE) with associated runtime admin
> tools. There's also a solaris version, but that wasn't
> on the machine she had.
> 
> If you want to know more about the application, you can
> ask it about itself - go to http://www.nativeminds.com,
> turn on cookies and javascript, and follow the "talk
> to nicole" link. It won't understand you if you get too
> far outside its subject matter or use sentences too long
> for it to figure out, but that's par for the course for
> this moment in time.
> 
> >The dame chopped and shopped your secrets if
> >they were that, copying spooks ploying a bonus
> >from likeminders with the same venal bosses eager
> >to steal when profits peter, copying the boss spooks
> >copying the leaders of the earth and heaven.
> 
> That's an interesting collection of words.  Do you
> suppose it's a sentence?
> 
>                         Bear




From nobody at neuropa.net  Mon Mar  5 05:08:07 2001
From: nobody at neuropa.net (Anonymous)
Date: 5 Mar 2001 13:08:07 -0000
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
Message-ID: <200103051303.f25D30S06775@berlin.neuropa.net>



>I think it might have something to do with the fact that we rarely see

>females posting on cypherpunks.



But let's see her use a TYPE II remailer, yeah !





From lvild at usa.net  Mon Mar  5 13:29:56 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 5 Mar 2001 13:29:56 PST
Subject: [Re: Re: [Re: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts]]
Message-ID: <20010305212956.8460.qmail@nwcst317.netaddress.usa.net>



You have done well neutralizing my arguments
but not so much in hiding them from scrutiny.


Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 28 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
> 
> > It's all in the timing.
> 
> Right and wrong have timing? I think not.
> 
> > If the censors are the last to judge,
> 
> Censors are the first to judge. 'a priori' effectively means 'before'.
> 
> > they self proclaim the right to punish
> > or take corrective action.
> 
> What censor ever took a self-proclaimed right to censor and actually got
> away with it? You cast censorship as if it were a private/personal act
> when in fact it's a societal act, many against one. If it's couched in
> anything it's a mis-applied concept of self-defence.
> 
> > So justice is held in a pyramid scheme
> > where those not fortunate or not able to be
> > on top are by definition the only liable to
> > be judged by terrestrial powers.
> 
> That's not justice, that human nature. Don't have a clue how we got into
> talking about space aliens (ie terrestrial powers).
> 
> Are you mean transcendental as in religious?
> 
> > The odd thing about this is judgments
> > are punitive in nature, so those at the bottom
> > slip further down; distancing the judging party
> > from the judged. Kind of a reinforcing cycle.
> 
> ????
> 
> > Can you think of mechanisms to trigger this cycle Jim?
> 
> I'm not sure what 'cycle' you mean.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From bakelaar at freehostweb.com  Mon Mar  5 11:47:24 2001
From: bakelaar at freehostweb.com (bakelaar at freehostweb.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:47:24 -0500
Subject: Try It It Works!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <21r45rhynb5vg2qh7p.g35ssg1n@nksxdosdjw.freehostweb.com>

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From aziza at freehostweb.com  Mon Mar  5 11:52:25 2001
From: aziza at freehostweb.com (aziza at freehostweb.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:52:25 -0500
Subject: Try It It Works.......
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From abina at freehostweb.com  Mon Mar  5 12:00:19 2001
From: abina at freehostweb.com (abina at freehostweb.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:00:19 -0500
Subject: Try It It Works.
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From aluger at hushmail.com  Mon Mar  5 15:37:15 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:37:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test
Message-ID: <200103052335.PAA15016@user1.hushmail.com>


Somehow I sense Ms. Farr has tried this trick before....


At Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:20:31 -0600, "Aimee Farr" <aimee.farr at pobox.com> wrote:

>
>Mike: Are you often the victim of mercenary females? 
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mmotyka at lsil.com [mailto:mmotyka at lsil.com]
>> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:28 PM
>> To: aimee.farr at pobox.com
>> Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test
>> 
>> 
>> It's an obvious setup. The woods are part of a defense installation,
>> apple is filled with coke, the girl is underage, the woods are full 
>of
>> trigger happy fibbies. 
>> 
>> You hit the ground and roll into the brush, drawing on the way. You
>> attempt to locate opponents and identify the safest route away from 
>the
>> situation.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> >CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
>> >
>> >QUESTION #1.
>> >
>> >You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
>> >magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
>> >
>> >1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
>> >
>> >(a) you bite the apple.
>> >(b) you take the woman.
>> >(c) you run away.
>> >(d) a and b, but not c.
>> >(e) b and c only.
>> >(f) all of the above.
>> >(g) none of the above.
>> >
>> >2. Please justify your answer:
>> >
>> >
>> >___________________________________________________________________.
>> >
>> >
>> >Just curious....
>> >
>> >        -Aimee
>
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From bf at farc.co  Mon Mar  5 15:46:18 2001
From: bf at farc.co (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:46:18 -0800
Subject: AIMSTER uses DMCA "no RevEng" against RIAA
Message-ID: <3AA4254A.E7350177@farc.co>


Excerpt:

In addition, Aimster is attempting to shield itself behind the very law
the entertainment industry has used to
                go after file-swapping company Napster. The Digital
Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), a controversial law
                backed by music companies and other large copyright
holders, prohibits anyone from cracking code
                designed to protect copyrights. Aimster, which
incorporated an encryption scheme into a new version
                released Wednesday, hopes that provision applies to it
as well.

                Aimster spokesman Johnny Deep said the new encryption
plan was created to protect the service and its
                members from anyone who wants to monitor the network.

                "The encryption technology makes it a federal crime to
spam or monitor the network," Deep said, adding
                that it could affect record companies. "We didn't do it
to shut them out, but I don't think there will be any
                way to distinguish between" spammers and record labels.

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/news.php3?id=03022001c




From tapasu2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 15:52:32 2001
From: tapasu2000 at yahoo.com (tapasu kanik)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:52:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Yes, I Said You Could Be A Millionaire! 
Message-ID: <20010305235232.24723.qmail@web11407.mail.yahoo.com>


Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
from your home for an
investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
======================================================

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following.
This is the letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the
popularity of this
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program
recently devoted an
entire show to the investigation of this program
described below, to see if
it really can make people money.\\~ The show also
investigated whether or not
the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there are
''absolutely NO Laws
prohibiting the participation in the program and if
people can -follow the
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega
bucks with only $25
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF
POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS 
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER
THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this
profitable opportunity. I was
approached many times before but each time I passed on
it. I am so glad I
finally joined just to see what one could expect in
return for the minimal
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I
received total $ 610,470.00
in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam
Hedland, Fort Lee, New
Jersey. 

=======================================================
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been
around for a long
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I
received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed
the simple
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money
started to come in.
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months
after that I made a
total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by
re-entering the
program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing
it again. The key to
success in this program is to follow the simple steps
and NOT change 
anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 

===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ========

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to
5 months easily and
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT
AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL
DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====


For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF
THE REPORT YOU ARE 
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose
name appears ON THAT 
LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS
IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

=== When you place your order, make sure you order
each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them
on your computer and
resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each
of the 5 reports from
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your
computer so they will be
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people
who will order them from
you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it
on your disk in case
something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who
are listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way
other than what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will
loose out on majority 
of your profits. Once you understand the way this
works, you will also see 
how it does
not work if you change it. Remember, this method has
been tested, and if you
alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put
their friends/relatives 
names on 
all five thinking they could get all the money. But it
does not work this 
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and
then nothing happened. So 
Do Not try to change anything other than what is
instructed. Because if you 
do, it will not work 
for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this
advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5.
This person
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting
their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO
REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO
REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO
REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO
REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1
Position. PLEASE 
MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

=============================================================

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list
of names, and save it on 
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose
any data. To assist you 
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5
reports you purchase will 
provide you with invaluable marketing information
which includes how to send 
bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free
classified ads and much 
more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture
going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see
how it goes, and we 
will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000
e-mails each. Let's also 
assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response
(the response could be 
much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also
many people will send out 
hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000
each). Continuing with
this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for
report # 1. Those 10 people 
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total
of 50,000. Out of 
those 
50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders.
That's=100 people responded 
and ordered Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a
total of 500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #
3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a
total of 5 million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000
orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a
total of 50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is
100,000 orders for Report
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00
(half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 +
2..... $500 + 3.....
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........
Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE
OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE 
RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL
STILL MAKE A LOT OF 
MONEY ! 

=============================================================

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU 
MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would
happen if everyone or half 
or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails
each or more? There are 
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and
counting. Believe me, 
many people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
=============================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and
there are hundreds of 
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on
the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you
start with Method # 1 
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you
receive, all you must do 
is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it.
Always provide same day 
service on all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out,
with your name and address 
on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise
until they receive the 
report. 

===========AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes:
Always send $5 cash (U.S. 
CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make
sure the cash is 
concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of
paper. On one of those 
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the
Report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==========================================================
REPORT # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for
Free on the Net 

Order Report #1 from:

Susan. P.
36 College Ave
San Francisco, CA 94112-1011
USA
________________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail
on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 

Joy. M.
923 Arlington Ave
Oakland, CA 94608-2703
USA
_________________________________________________________________

REPORT # 3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net 

Order Report # 3 from : 

S. Santos
32 Cross Street
San Francisco, CA 94112
USA
_________________________________________________________________

REPORT # 4: How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM
& the Net 

Order Report # 4 from: 

C.J. Kalata
P.O. Box 130157
Roseville, MN 55076
USA
________________________________________________________________

REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne Million emails for free


Order Report # 5 From:

Gundeti
2036 Klamat Ave,#2
Santa Clara,CA - 95051
USA
________________________________________________________________

$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for
Report #1 within 2 weeks, 
continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks
after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did
not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for
Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the
cash will continue to
roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time
your name is moved down
on the list, you are placed in front of a Different
report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME
SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF 
E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO
LIMIT to the income 
you can generate from this business !!! 

=============================================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM: You have just 
received information that can give you financial
freedom for the rest of your 
life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT.
You can make more money 
in the next few weeks and months than you have ever
imagined. Follow the 
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any
way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 
\\~
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report
after you have put your 
name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2
...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this to
may send out 100,000 or 
more e-mails and your name will be on every one of
them. Remember though, the 
more you send out the more potential customers you
will reach. So my friend, 
I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunityto become 
financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

======================== MORE TESTIMONIALS
===================

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in
Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
pretty good money. When I 
received this program I grumbled to Jody about
receiving ''junk mail''. I 
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of
the population and 
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work.
Jody totally ignored my 
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in
with both feet. I made 
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I
told you so'' on
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on
me! Within 3 weeks she 
had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she
had received total $ 
147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have
joined Jody in her 
''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=============================================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several
weeks to make up my mind 
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I
am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just
no way that I wouldn't 
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. ''
I was surprised when I 
found my medium size post office box crammed with
orders. I made $319,210.00 
in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal
is that it does not 
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better
investment with a 
faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta,
Canada 
=============================================================

'' I had received this program before. I deleted it,
but later I wondered if 
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get 
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed
again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came
again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first
try and all the money 
came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
=============================================================
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively
easy money with little 
cost to you. I followed the simple instructions
carefully and within 10 days 
the money started to come in. My first month I made $
20, 560.00 and by the 
end of third month my total cash count was $
362,840.00. Life is beautiful, 
Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New
Zealand 
=============================================================

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD
TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !


=============================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this
program, contact the Office 
of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal
Trade Commission, 
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 13:57:14 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:57:14 -0600
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
In-Reply-To: <3AA3BD78.E5CD198C@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPMEPPCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Blank Frank said:
 
> ...On the internet, no one can tell you're an ephemeral distributed
> psyop prankster...

Remote viewing. And you need to stop doing that.

	-Aimee 




From editor at newsletter.join4free.com  Mon Mar  5 15:58:00 2001
From: editor at newsletter.join4free.com (editor at newsletter.join4free.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:58:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Monday Madness - Let Yourself Go @ ClubHardcoreLive! => cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <200103052358.PAA11220@toad.com>

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*************************************************************************************************************
Note: this is not a spam email. This email was sent to you because 
your email was entered in on a website requesting to be a registered subscriber. 
If you did not request this email, please use the link below to unsubscribe:
http://www.join4free.com/cancel.html?p=cypherpunks&job=983820750&email=cypherpunks%40toad.com
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From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 14:14:11 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:14:11 -0600
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
In-Reply-To: <20010304180902.A1112@alcantara.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPCEACCFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Timothy Brown said:

> I think it might have something to do with the fact that we rarely see
> females posting on cypherpunks.
>

I think it might have something to do with your Bible-crypto theory. Even
this low-grade cipher is certain to befuddle the cryptoanalytic attacks of
law enforcement agencies which have long-ignored the value of a liberal arts
education. To their great woe, they have cultivated an exploitable weakness.

	-Aimee




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 14:20:22 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:20:22 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
  Packet,  et. al.
In-Reply-To: <MAEJKAJCIGHONDJLKPFPIEJPCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPMEACCFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Mr. Zakas: Divorced? Painful financial settlement? A very bad woman in your
past, methinks.

	-Aimee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillip H. Zakas [mailto:pzakas at toucancapital.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 10:59 AM
> To: Aimee Farr; Ray Dillinger; Timothy Brown; dropped_packet at hotmail.com
> Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: RE: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
> Packet, et. al.
>
>
>
> offer a pear in return.
>
> or better yet, recall what happens in the movies when one encounters a
> 'naked magic woman holding an apple in the dark woods': bizarre
> death.  Run
> in the other direction as fast as your legs could carry you, all the while
> letting out the primordal scream you know sounds feminine to the
> 'non-magical' (better than peeing your pants anyway.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Aimee Farr
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 8:49 PM
> To: Ray Dillinger; Timothy Brown; dropped_packet at hotmail.com
> Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & Packet,
> et. al.
>
>
>
> CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
>
> QUESTION #1.
>
> You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
>
> 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
>
> (a) you bite the apple.
> (b) you take the woman.
> (c) you run away.
> (d) a and b, but not c.
> (e) b and c only.
> (f) all of the above.
> (g) none of the above.
>
> 2. Please justify your answer:
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________.
>
>
> Just curious....
>
> 	-Aimee




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 14:20:31 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:20:31 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test
In-Reply-To: <3AA404D7.1F97775A@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEACCFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Mike: Are you often the victim of mercenary females? 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mmotyka at lsil.com [mailto:mmotyka at lsil.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:28 PM
> To: aimee.farr at pobox.com
> Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test
> 
> 
> It's an obvious setup. The woods are part of a defense installation,
> apple is filled with coke, the girl is underage, the woods are full of
> trigger happy fibbies. 
> 
> You hit the ground and roll into the brush, drawing on the way. You
> attempt to locate opponents and identify the safest route away from the
> situation.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> >CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> >
> >QUESTION #1.
> >
> >You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> >magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> >
> >1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> >
> >(a) you bite the apple.
> >(b) you take the woman.
> >(c) you run away.
> >(d) a and b, but not c.
> >(e) b and c only.
> >(f) all of the above.
> >(g) none of the above.
> >
> >2. Please justify your answer:
> >
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________.
> >
> >
> >Just curious....
> >
> >        -Aimee




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Mar  5 16:38:36 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:38:36 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEACCFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3AA4318C.A2DD0688@lsil.com>

Aimee Farr wrote:
> 
> Mike: Are you often the victim of mercenary females?
> 
Nope.

Just trying to give proper representation to the techno-paranoid. The
scenario looks too easy. Obviously the meeting was arranged via an AOL
chat room. What can it be but a setup?

BTW, in the scenario the female is not a mercenary, just a pawn trying
to meet the terms of her plea bargain.

I have yet to see much on CP that isn't either spam or performance art.

Yawn,
Mike

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mmotyka at lsil.com [mailto:mmotyka at lsil.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:28 PM
> > To: aimee.farr at pobox.com
> > Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test
> >
> >
> > It's an obvious setup. The woods are part of a defense installation,
> > apple is filled with coke, the girl is underage, the woods are full of
> > trigger happy fibbies.
> >
> > You hit the ground and roll into the brush, drawing on the way. You
> > attempt to locate opponents and identify the safest route away from the
> > situation.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > >CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> > >
> > >QUESTION #1.
> > >
> > >You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> > >magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> > >
> > >1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> > >
> > >(a) you bite the apple.
> > >(b) you take the woman.
> > >(c) you run away.
> > >(d) a and b, but not c.
> > >(e) b and c only.
> > >(f) all of the above.
> > >(g) none of the above.
> > >
> > >2. Please justify your answer:
> > >
> > >
> > >___________________________________________________________________.
> > >
> > >
> > >Just curious....
> > >
> > >        -Aimee
> > >
> >
> >

--------------4921DE9A1854607539453D0B--




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Mar  5 16:40:24 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:40:24 -0800
Subject: [Fwd: Cypherpunks IQ Test]
Message-ID: <3AA431F8.9E00DCCC@lsil.com>

 
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From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 14:42:49 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:42:49 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & 
  Packet, et. al.
In-Reply-To: <008201c0a5ac$93065e80$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGEAECFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Daniel said: "Next Question?"

Do you have a problem with commitment? I do not mean to imply that you
aren't faithful.

	-Aimee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Daniel J. Boone
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:44 PM
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
> Packet, et. al.
>
>
> > CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> > QUESTION #1.
>
> I'll play, and I won't even hide behind a nym.  (Nothing against
> persistant
> nyms, but I snicker when people create new ones to make flippant
> statements
> they don't want associated with their persistant ones.  Cowards....)
>
> > You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> > magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> >
> > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> >
> > (a) you bite the apple.
> > (b) you take the woman.
> > (c) you run away.
> > (d) a and b, but not c.
> > (e) b and c only.
> > (f) all of the above.
> > (g) none of the above.
> >
> > 2. Please justify your answer:
>
>
> (a) is right out.  The apple is obviously bait.  Nobody with more
> brain than
> a rat bites obvious bait unless it's really tasty looking.  I don't like
> apples that much no matter how beautiful the fruit bowl is.
>
> (b) is trickier.  Is she bait too?  Probably.  But see comment about tasty
> looking above.  Risk exists we wind up measuring IQ of little head.  Also,
> is she a witch?  Wow, it gets more interesting.  Witches can be a
> LOT of fun
> and are worth taking risks for.  Only trouble is she'll toss yer shoes in
> the long run unless you can at least respect her gods, and she's probably
> going to catch you if you fake it.  Finally, "take"?  That's
> ambiguous.  If
> we are talking offer and acceptance, with meeting of minds and whatever,
> that's one thing.  If we are talking "Me Og, Og bonk yummy witch and drag
> back to cave" it's rather another thing.  I would say circumstances and
> literary tradition suggest the former, unless body language and subsequent
> conversation indicate otherwise.  So leave (b) on the list of possible
> answers.
>
> (c) is right out.  BZZZT!  Wrong answer.  How many times in your life do
> fairy tale things happen to you?  Reward is commensurate with risk -- "and
> he and the beautiful witch lived happily ever after" is a
> possible outcome.
> Not to diminish the possibility of "and the ugly toad never left the swamp
> until the end of his days" but c'mon man, if you've got an ounce of
> adventure in your soul you'll stick around a bit and scope things
> out before
> skedaddling like a wuss.
>
> (a) and (b) together are out, because (a) is out.  Basic logic.  So (d) is
> out.
>
> (e) is out because (c) is out.  Also because it's rude.  A
> gentleman should
> stick around for coffee or better yet breakfast, and should
> promise to call,
> and then should DO it -- at least once.  (Christ, that sounds
> like something
> out of "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long" -- I must be getting old.)
>
> (f) and (g) are unsatisfactory for the reasons expressed above.
>
> So it looks like (b), by simple process of elimination.  Next question?
>
> -- Daniel




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 14:43:00 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:43:00 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, ...
In-Reply-To: <20010305155016.D97F01765F@mail.zedz.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEAECFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


A one Nomen Nescio: must be married...something....stumped.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Nomen Nescio
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:50 AM
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, ...
> 
> 
> Aimee Farr (aimee.farr at pobox.com) wrote:
> X-Invalid: > CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> X-Invalid: >
> X-Invalid: > QUESTION #1.
> X-Invalid: >
> X-Invalid: > You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful 
> unclothed	 woman
> X-Invalid: > magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> X-Invalid: >
> > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> X-Invalid: >
> X-Invalid: > (a) you bite the apple.
> X-Invalid: > (b) you take the woman.
> X-Invalid: > (c) you run away.
> X-Invalid: > (d) a and b, but not c.
> X-Invalid: > (e) b and c only.
> X-Invalid: > (f) all of the above.
> X-Invalid: > (g) none of the above.
> X-Invalid: > (h) as above, so below.
> X-Invalid: >
> > 2. Please justify your answer:
> X-Invalid: >
> Message-ID: <7c89f635acde4415a108f76aa82ed8a3 at dizum.com>
> 
> My computer has interfaces for a keyboard, mouse, joystick, and
> a few other things but not for a number 2 pencil so you'll have
> to wait for someone to develop one.
> 
> I'm sorry but I can't help you...




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Mar  5 07:50:16 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon,  5 Mar 2001 16:50:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, ...
Message-ID: <20010305155016.D97F01765F@mail.zedz.net>


Aimee Farr (aimee.farr at pobox.com) wrote:
X-Invalid: > CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
X-Invalid: >
X-Invalid: > QUESTION #1.
X-Invalid: >
X-Invalid: > You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed	 woman
X-Invalid: > magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
X-Invalid: >
> 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
X-Invalid: >
X-Invalid: > (a) you bite the apple.
X-Invalid: > (b) you take the woman.
X-Invalid: > (c) you run away.
X-Invalid: > (d) a and b, but not c.
X-Invalid: > (e) b and c only.
X-Invalid: > (f) all of the above.
X-Invalid: > (g) none of the above.
X-Invalid: > (h) as above, so below.
X-Invalid: >
> 2. Please justify your answer:
X-Invalid: >
Message-ID: <7c89f635acde4415a108f76aa82ed8a3 at dizum.com>

My computer has interfaces for a keyboard, mouse, joystick, and
a few other things but not for a number 2 pencil so you'll have
to wait for someone to develop one.

I'm sorry but I can't help you...




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 14:54:30 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:54:30 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & 
  Packet, et.  al.
In-Reply-To: <3AA3AEE8.EB9F16BF@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPCEAFCFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Harmon Seaver: another "take apple, bite woman guy." Are you bothered by
feminine ambiguity?

	-Aimee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Harmon Seaver
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:21 AM
> To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
> Packet, et. al.
>
>
> How stupid do I look wrote:
>
> > Not enough information.
> >
> > Please clarify the following ambiguities:
> >
> >         What kind of an apple is it?
>
>     A magic one, of course.
>
> >
> >
> >         Is she a witch?  Magic scares me.
>
>      Why? A female spirit appears to you, that's a "Good Thing", eh?
>
> >
> >
> >         Is the woman a het, or a mongoose bull-dyke?
>
>       Only one way to find out, but probably if she's appearing
> to you nude,
> it's obvious.
>
> >
> >
> >         Whose definition of beautiful are we using here, anyways?
>
>       Wouldn't she have the capability of appearing just right for you?
>
> >
> >
> >         Why would I be walking through the woods alone?
>
>        Good grief, why not? Are you afraid of the dark too? I prefer being
> in the woods alone, or perhaps with my dog. And She Who Speaks often
> whispers in my ear at such times, which probably won't happen if
> others are
> near, unless they happen to be tuned in to the same frequency at
> the moment.
>
> >
> >
> > > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> > >
> > > (a) you bite the apple.
> > > (b) you take the woman.
>
>        Both of the above, or perhaps the reverse -- take the
> apple and bite
> the woman.
>
> >
> > > (c) you run away.
> > > (d) a and b, but not c.
> > > (e) b and c only.
> > > (f) all of the above.
> > > (g) none of the above.
> >
> > > 2. Please justify your answer:
> >
>
>            I'm always looking for encounters with female spirits.




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar  5 14:55:07 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:55:07 -0600
Subject: The Register - Stop identity theft
Message-ID: <3AA4194B.61C06D85@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17358.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ross_kelly at bigpond.com  Mon Mar  5 17:02:34 2001
From: ross_kelly at bigpond.com (ross_kelly at bigpond.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:02:34
Subject: Make over a half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home
Message-ID: <395.716807.705690@mail.bigpond.com>



Dear Friend & Future Millionaire:

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV :
''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your 
home for
an
investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time''

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET !
==================================================
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the 
letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity 
of this
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently 
devoted an
entire show to the investigation of this program described below, 
to see if

it really can make people money. The show also investigated 
whether or not
the program was legal.

Their findings proved once and for all that there are 
''absolutely NO Laws
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can 
-follow the
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with 
only $25
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & 
RESPECT
THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN 
EVER.

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable 
opportunity. I
was
approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am 
so glad I
finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for 
the minimal
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $
610,470.00
in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, 
New
Jersey.

=================================================================
====
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for 
a long
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this 
again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to 
come in.
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that 
I made a
total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering 
the
program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. 
The key to

success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT 
change
anything.'' More testimonials later but first,

================ PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE 
==========

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months 
easily and
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and 
AGAIN !!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS 
WILL COME
TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS:

================ Order all 5 reports shown on the list below
=================

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT 
YOU ARE
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears 
ON THAT
LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR 
ENVELOPE
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 
reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your 
computer and
resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00.

=== Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 
reports
from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so 
they will

be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will 
order them
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your 
desk in
case something happen to your computer.

=== IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next
to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than 
what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out 
on majority

of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will 
also see
how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has 
been
tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried 
to put
their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get 
all the
money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have 
tried to be
greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change 
anything other
than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for 
you.
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this 
advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This 
person has made

it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.
PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY!
=================================================================
====

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, 
and save it
on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To 
assist
you
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you 
purchase
will provide you with invaluable marketing information which 
includes how
to
send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free 
classified ads
and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture 
going:

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
=================================================================
====
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
goes, and we
will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails 
each. Let's
also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the 
response
could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many 
people
will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 
each).
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. 
Those 10
people
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. 
Out of
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 
people
responded and ordered Report # 2.

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
500,000
e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3.

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 
million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for 
Report #
4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders 
for
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half 
million).

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 
3.....
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand 
Total=$555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST 
POSSIBLE
RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE 
A LOT OF
MONEY !

=================================================================
====
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 
5,000 YOU
MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if 
everyone or half

or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or 
more? There
are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and 
counting. Believe

me, many people will do just that, and more!

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
=================================================================
====
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are 
hundreds of
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the 
Internet will
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with 
Method # 1

and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all 
you must
do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always 
provide same
day service on all orders.

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name 
and
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise 
until they
receive the report.

====================== AVAILABLE REPORTS====================

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send 
$5 cash
(U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure 
the cash is

concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of 
those
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you 
are
ordering,
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
=================================================================
====
REPORT # 1 : ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net''
Order Report # 1 from:
Ross Wein	
Lot 50 Heritage Dr
Bargara Queensland 4670
Australia
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the 
Net''
Order Report # 2 from :
Kevin Dodd
150 Main St. North
P.O. Box #74061
Brampton, Ontario
LV6 1MO
Canada
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net''
Order Report # 3 from:
Kris H. Webber
Sankt Hansgade 24,3th.
Copenhagen 2200
Denmark
________________________________________________________________
REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the 
Net''
Order Report # 4 from:
Loren Stone
P. O. Box 6232
Clearfield, UT 84089
USA
________________________________________________________________
REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE''
Order Report # 5 from:
A.S. Dorsey
521 Lee Street
Hampton, VA 23669
USA
______________________________________________________________

$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 
2 weeks,
continue sending e-mails until you do.

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that 
you should
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, 
continue
advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU 
CAN
RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will 
continue
to
roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is 
moved down

on the list, you are placed in front of a different report.

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND 
ANOTHER BATCH
OF
E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to 
the income
you can generate from this business !!!

=================================================================
====

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:
You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom for
the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF 
EFFORT. You
can
make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have 
ever
imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change 
it in any

way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a 
copy of
this exciting report after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1
and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of 
the
people
you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your 
name will be

on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the 
more
potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given 
you the
ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become 
financially
independent.
IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

==================== MORE TESTIMONIALS======================

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am 
an
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good 
money. When

I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk 
mail''. I

made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the 
population and
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally 
ignored my
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both 
feet. I
made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told 
you so''
on
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 
3 weeks
she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had 
received
total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have 
joined Jody
in her ''hobby''.
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois
=================================================================
====
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make 
up my mind

to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I 
decided that the

initial investment was so little that there was just no way that 
I wouldn't

get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was 
surprised when
I
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made
$319,210.00
in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it 
does not
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment 
with a
faster return and so big''.
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada
=================================================================
====
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I 
wondered
if
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to 
contact to
get
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by 
someone
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I 
did not
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and 
all the
money
came within 22 weeks''.
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.
=================================================================
====
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money 
with
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully 
and within

10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 
20,560.00 and

by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. 
Life is
beautiful, Thanx to internet''.
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand
=================================================================
====

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM
!

=================================================================
====
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, 
contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal 
Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

============================THE END=========================

This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: 
SECTION 301. Per

Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618,
http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html
Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be 
stopped at
no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the 
word
"remove" in the subject line.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From abs at squig.org  Mon Mar  5 17:26:10 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:26:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
  Packet,  et. al.
In-Reply-To: <MAEJKAJCIGHONDJLKPFPIEJPCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103051725220.14266-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>


On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

> offer a pear in return.
>
> or better yet, recall what happens in the movies when one encounters a
> 'naked magic woman holding an apple in the dark woods': bizarre death.  Run
> in the other direction as fast as your legs could carry you, all the while
> letting out the primordal scream you know sounds feminine to the
> 'non-magical' (better than peeing your pants anyway.)

Peeing your pants is fine, so long as you don't whistle while you're doing
it.

Alex




From abs at squig.org  Mon Mar  5 17:26:10 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:26:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
  Packet,  et. al.
In-Reply-To: <MAEJKAJCIGHONDJLKPFPIEJPCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103051725220.14266-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.
  org>


On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

> offer a pear in return.
>
> or better yet, recall what happens in the movies when one encounters a
> 'naked magic woman holding an apple in the dark woods': bizarre death.  Run
> in the other direction as fast as your legs could carry you, all the while
> letting out the primordal scream you know sounds feminine to the
> 'non-magical' (better than peeing your pants anyway.)

Peeing your pants is fine, so long as you don't whistle while you're doing
it.

Alex




From drunk.bastard at beer.fridge.com  Mon Mar  5 09:30:42 2001
From: drunk.bastard at beer.fridge.com (How stupid do I look)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:30:42 +0000
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & Packet, et. al.
In-Reply-To: <3AA3AEE8.EB9F16BF@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com> <200103042344.f24NiDa14311@choice.drlogick.com> <3AA3AEE8.EB9F16BF@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <200103051158.f25BwAE32603@choice.drlogick.com>



Quoting Harmon Seaver (hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us):
> How stupid do I look wrote:
> 
> > Not enough information.
> >
> > Please clarify the following ambiguities:
> >
> >         What kind of an apple is it?
> 
>     A magic one, of course.

Well, as long as the magic apple is documented, then I see no problem here.
 
> >         Is she a witch?  Magic scares me.
> 
>      Why? A female spirit appears to you, that's a "Good Thing", eh?

I suppose so, but I'd probably ask her to put on some panties, just the same.
 
> >         Is the woman a het, or a mongoose bull-dyke?
> 
>       Only one way to find out, but probably if she's appearing to you nude,
> it's obvious.

If unclothed and nude are equivalent then it could be obvious.

> >         Whose definition of beautiful are we using here, anyways?
> 
>       Wouldn't she have the capability of appearing just right for you?

Could be.
 
> >         Why would I be walking through the woods alone?
> 
>        Good grief, why not? Are you afraid of the dark too? I prefer being
> in the woods alone, or perhaps with my dog. And She Who Speaks often
> whispers in my ear at such times, which probably won't happen if others are
> near, unless they happen to be tuned in to the same frequency at the moment.

Kenneth?  Kenneth?  Where for art thou, Kenneth?
 
> > > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> > >
> > > (a) you bite the apple.
> > > (b) you take the woman.
> 
>        Both of the above, or perhaps the reverse -- take the apple and bite
> the woman.

That's cheating.

> > > (c) you run away.
> > > (d) a and b, but not c.
> > > (e) b and c only.
> > > (f) all of the above.
> > > (g) none of the above.

> > > 2. Please justify your answer:
> >
> 
>            I'm always looking for encounters with female spirits.

This round is on me.
 



-- 
"I drank what?!?"
	- Socrates




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 15:38:52 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:38:52 -0600
Subject: To The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Dionysos, Son of
  Zeus, In Thebes
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEAICFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aimee Farr [mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 5:35 PM
> To: cypherunks at lne.com
> Subject: To The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Dionysos, Son of
> Zeus, In Thebes
> 
> 
> To The Most Honorable Dionysos, Son Of Zeus, In Thebes:
> 
> And so hail to you, Dionysus, god of abundant clusters! He who 
> produces the rich-clustering vine for mortals. You, Eubolius, so 
> very enlightened. Lo! I am that Persephone, that Kore, that 
> trim-ankled Maiden. A lowly Thesmophoria mystes, no sweet 
> synthema springs forth from me. But if you will be moved by me -- 
> for you, lord, are stronger and mightier than I, and your strength is
> very great.
> 
> Truly, I say to you, the Ivy-crown'd: "An Aeschylos Be Thee!" You 
> innocent devourer of flesh so raw! Thou not fear Tyrrhenian 
> pirates? Lo! The loud-crying god Thou Art! In Thine Own word: 
> "They can not be told to mortals uninitiated in Bacchic revelry." 
> Pentheus was rightful in his words to Thee: "How bold the 
> Bacchant is, and not unpracticed in speaking! This stranger with 
> whom I am locked together is impossible, and neither suffering 
> nor doing will he be quiet."
> 
> Be favourable, O Insewn, Inspirer of frenzied women! We singers 
> sing of you as we begin and as we end a strain, and none 
> forgetting you may call holy song to mind. Listen, blessed one, 
> to my voice, and breathe On me with a heart blameless and kind. 
> 
> But I tell you truly and shortly all I know. And so I wandered 
> and am come here: and I know not at all what land this is or what 
> people are in it. Why do you seek to frighten me like a feeble 
> child whose heart knows few words of blame, a fearful babe? Why 
> do you seek to compare this nimble Nymph to couches and dusty 
> things? Better to live in fellowship with the
> deathless gods continually, rich, wealthy, and enjoying stories 
> of grain, than to sit always in a gloomy cave. I was born 
> yesterday, and my feet are soft. If you will have it so, I will 
> swear a great oath by my father's head and vow that neither am I 
> guilty myself, neither have I seen any other who stole your cows 
> -- whatever cows may be; for I know them only by hearsay.' 
> 
> But whoso shall trust to idly-chattering birds and shall seek to 
> invoke my prophetic art contrary to my will, I declare that he 
> shall come on an idle journey; yet his gifts I would take. But if 
> you tell all and foolishly boast that you lay with rich-crowned 
> Aphrodite, Zeus will smite you in his anger with a smoking 
> thunderbolt. Now I have told you all. Take heed: refrain and name 
> me not, but have regard to the anger of the gods.' Hail, child of 
> fair-faced Semele! He who is no lover of Milton. 
> 
> She who forgets you can in no wise order sweet song. 




From aluger at hushmail.com  Mon Mar  5 17:53:01 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:53:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test
Message-ID: <200103060152.RAA27400@user1.hushmail.com>

Not important really...

sed ad id, unde digressi sumus, revertamur--

At Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:56:17 -0600, "Aimee Farr" <aimee.farr at pobox.com> wrote:

>
>Et Tu, aluger?
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
>> Behalf Of aluger at hushmail.com
>> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 5:37 PM
>> To: Aimee Farr
>> Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com
>> Subject: RE: Cypherpunks IQ Test
>> 
>> 
>> Somehow I sense Ms. Farr has tried this trick before....
>> 
>> 
>> At Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:20:31 -0600, "Aimee Farr" 
>> <aimee.farr at pobox.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >Mike: Are you often the victim of mercenary females? 
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: mmotyka at lsil.com [mailto:mmotyka at lsil.com]
>> >> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:28 PM
>> >> To: aimee.farr at pobox.com
>> >> Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> It's an obvious setup. The woods are part of a defense installation,
>> >> apple is filled with coke, the girl is underage, the woods are 
>full 
>> >of
>> >> trigger happy fibbies. 
>> >> 
>> >> You hit the ground and roll into the brush, drawing on the way. 
>You
>> >> attempt to locate opponents and identify the safest route away 
>from 
>> >the
>> >> situation.
>> >> 
>> >> Mike
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> >CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
>> >> >
>> >> >QUESTION #1.
>> >> >
>> >> >You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed 
>woman
>> >> >magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
>> >> >
>> >> >1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
>> >> >
>> >> >(a) you bite the apple.
>> >> >(b) you take the woman.
>> >> >(c) you run away.
>> >> >(d) a and b, but not c.
>> >> >(e) b and c only.
>> >> >(f) all of the above.
>> >> >(g) none of the above.
>> >> >
>> >> >2. Please justify your answer:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >___________________________________________________________________.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Just curious....
>> >> >
>> >> >        -Aimee
>> >
>> Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com
>> 
>> 
>>
>
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar  5 16:22:27 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:22:27 -0600
Subject: Welcome to CanonicalTomes
Message-ID: <3AA42DC3.84C6000D@ssz.com>


http://www.canonicaltomes.org/
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From BF at mindspring.com  Mon Mar  5 18:25:59 2001
From: BF at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:25:59 -0800
Subject: Tomlinson spook book download -FREE
Message-ID: <3AA44AB6.367E3980@farc.com>



Your members can now download a copy of Richard Tomlinson's book THE BIG

BREACH from the internet at no charge.

Simply log on to: http://www.thebigbreach.com/download/







From BF at mindspring.com  Mon Mar  5 18:32:49 2001
From: BF at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:32:49 -0800
Subject: Tomlinson spook book download -FREE
Message-ID: <3AA44C50.58DFF65@farc.org>



Your members can now download a copy of Richard Tomlinson's book THE BIG

BREACH from the internet at no charge.

Simply log on to: http://www.thebigbreach.com/download/







From atek3 at gmx.net  Mon Mar  5 18:46:16 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:46:16 -0800
Subject: New Scientist: Supersonic under watrer travel may become a  reality
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010306180818.03130540@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <009001c0a5e9$b08a71c0$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


i'm sorry but that is the coolest piece of science journalism i've read in
the past month or so.  Supersonic torpedoes, now thats just cool.

atek3

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Schear" <schear at lvcm.com>
To: <cypherpunks at cyberpass.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 6:09 PM
Subject: CDR: New Scientist: Supersonic under watrer travel may become a
reality


>
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_224813.html
>
>




From info at giganetstore.com  Mon Mar  5 10:50:27 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:50:27 -0000
Subject: Para o Melhor Pai do Mundo
Message-ID: <02e833350180531WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

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From atek3 at gmx.net  Mon Mar  5 18:59:57 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:59:57 -0800
Subject: [consim-l] New TBS series "War Games" (fwd)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010305190437.5925A-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <004401c0a5e9$cd72f500$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


man are the armed forces attempting a P.R. blitzkreig or what?

atek
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Choate" <ravage at ssz.com>
To: "The Club Inferno" <hell at einstein.ssz.com>
Cc: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 5:04 PM
Subject: CDR: [consim-l] New TBS series "War Games" (fwd)


>
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:34:49 EST
> From: HBtLF at aol.com
> To: Consim List <consim-l at halisp.net>
> Subject: [consim-l] New TBS series "War Games"
>
> For those wargamers who waste their time on TV.
>
> David Bolt
>
>
> TBS Superstation Offers Unprecedented Look at U.S. Military Combat
>   Scenarios in WAR GAMES.
>
>   Entertainment Editors
>
>   NOTE TO MEDIA: Photo is available in a Smart News Release(TM) on
>
>   Business Wire's Home Page at www.businesswire.com
>
>   ATLANTA--(ENTERTAINMENT WIRE)--Nov. 27, 2000
>
>   Reality television takes an exciting turn when TBS Superstation presents
the
>   first-ever in-depth original entertainment production detailing
authentic
>   combat-readiness military exercises.
>
>   WAR GAMES offers a rare, up-close look at military competitions
including
>   air-to-air dogfighting, submarine warfare, urban combat and "live fire"
>   fighting
>   exercises.
>
>   This action-packed, two-hour original special, premiering in March 2001,
is
>   being
>   produced with the full cooperation of the United States military.
>
>   "The unprecedented access and cooperation that TBS Superstation's
cameras
>   have received from the U.S. military will take our viewers to the front
>   lines of
>   authentic combat exercises," said Jim Head, senior vice president of
> original
>   programming for the Superstation. "WAR GAMES fits perfectly into our
> strategy
>   of providing exciting, high-profile and provocative original programming
> that
>   appeals to the Regular Guy and the people in his life. We are already
>   looking at
>   this special as a pilot for a potential series."
>
>   WAR GAMES will present four different combat scenarios, with
commentators
>   reporting from each competition, as well as personal stories from the
>   participating military troops.
>
>   The following are descriptions of the four games scheduled to be
included
>   in TBS
>   Superstation's WAR GAMES:
>
>   RED FLAG
>
>   After Vietnam, the United States Air Force created Red Flag, an
air-to-air
> and
>   air-to-ground military exercise designed to better train pilots for the
>   high-stress,
>   high-action situations they often confront in combat. In this scenario,
> pilots
>   engage in a dogfight over the Nevada desert before diving into "enemy"
>   territory in
>   an attempt to bomb an airfield.
>
>   WOLF HUNT
>
>   Enemy submarines claimed 80 percent of the ships sunk in World War
II--and
>   the threat of subs is just as potent today. The United States Navy
conducts
>   critical anti-submarine warfare exercises off the coast of San Diego in
this
>   exercise, in which two helicopters and two fixed-wing aircraft must
locate
> and
>   sink an enemy submarine before the submarine sinks our battleship.
>
>   JRTC (Joint Readiness Training Center)
>
>   Increasingly, military operations are conducted in cities and towns.
>   Recognizing
>   this, the United States Army built an entire mock town to train troops
in
>   urbanized warfare. In this realistic 11-day war game, U.S. forces must
> rescue a
>   town and its residents from hostile forces, as soldiers are exposed to
the
>   hazards of urbanized warfare, including civilians and media on the field
of
>   battle.
>
>   CAX (COMBINED ARMED EXERCISES)
>
>   CAX features the United States Marine Corps in a three-day, locked and
> loaded,
>   live-fire deployment involving thousands of Marines. In this exercise,
> Marines
>   must first assault and occupy enemy territory, then defend it against a
>   counter-assault in the California desert.
>
>   Executive producers for War Games are J.J. Jamieson and John Barchilon.
Mike
>   Sears is directing and David Hudson is producing. WAR GAMES is produced
by
>   Grindstone Productions and Avenue Pictures Television.
>
>   TBS Superstation is the TV Haven for the Regular Guy. Turner
Broadcasting
>   System, Inc.'s flagship entertainment network, the Superstation reaches
80.7
>   million households and is cable's most-watched network, a position it
has
> held
>   for 23 consecutive years. TBS Superstation offers high-profile original
>   movies and
>   series, blockbuster movies, popular series and sports, all reflecting
the
>   attitudes,
>   tastes, values and beliefs of the Regular Guy and the people in his
life.
> The
>   Superstation's Web site is located at TBSsuperstation.com.
>
>   Note: A Photo is available at URL:
>   http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/photo.cgi?pw.112700/bb3
>
>




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar  5 17:04:43 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:04:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [consim-l] New TBS series "War Games" (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010305190437.5925A-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:34:49 EST
From: HBtLF at aol.com
To: Consim List <consim-l at halisp.net>
Subject: [consim-l] New TBS series "War Games"

For those wargamers who waste their time on TV.

David Bolt


TBS Superstation Offers Unprecedented Look at U.S. Military Combat
  Scenarios in WAR GAMES.
  
  Entertainment Editors
  
  NOTE TO MEDIA: Photo is available in a Smart News Release(TM) on
  
  Business Wire's Home Page at www.businesswire.com
  
  ATLANTA--(ENTERTAINMENT WIRE)--Nov. 27, 2000
  
  Reality television takes an exciting turn when TBS Superstation presents the
  first-ever in-depth original entertainment production detailing authentic
  combat-readiness military exercises.
  
  WAR GAMES offers a rare, up-close look at military competitions including
  air-to-air dogfighting, submarine warfare, urban combat and "live fire" 
  fighting
  exercises.
  
  This action-packed, two-hour original special, premiering in March 2001, is 
  being
  produced with the full cooperation of the United States military.
  
  "The unprecedented access and cooperation that TBS Superstation's cameras
  have received from the U.S. military will take our viewers to the front 
  lines of
  authentic combat exercises," said Jim Head, senior vice president of 
original
  programming for the Superstation. "WAR GAMES fits perfectly into our 
strategy
  of providing exciting, high-profile and provocative original programming 
that
  appeals to the Regular Guy and the people in his life. We are already 
  looking at
  this special as a pilot for a potential series."
  
  WAR GAMES will present four different combat scenarios, with commentators
  reporting from each competition, as well as personal stories from the
  participating military troops.
  
  The following are descriptions of the four games scheduled to be included 
  in TBS
  Superstation's WAR GAMES:
  
  RED FLAG
  
  After Vietnam, the United States Air Force created Red Flag, an air-to-air 
and
  air-to-ground military exercise designed to better train pilots for the 
  high-stress,
  high-action situations they often confront in combat. In this scenario, 
pilots
  engage in a dogfight over the Nevada desert before diving into "enemy" 
  territory in
  an attempt to bomb an airfield.
  
  WOLF HUNT
  
  Enemy submarines claimed 80 percent of the ships sunk in World War II--and
  the threat of subs is just as potent today. The United States Navy conducts
  critical anti-submarine warfare exercises off the coast of San Diego in this
  exercise, in which two helicopters and two fixed-wing aircraft must locate 
and
  sink an enemy submarine before the submarine sinks our battleship.
  
  JRTC (Joint Readiness Training Center)
  
  Increasingly, military operations are conducted in cities and towns. 
  Recognizing
  this, the United States Army built an entire mock town to train troops in
  urbanized warfare. In this realistic 11-day war game, U.S. forces must 
rescue a
  town and its residents from hostile forces, as soldiers are exposed to the
  hazards of urbanized warfare, including civilians and media on the field of 
  battle.
  
  CAX (COMBINED ARMED EXERCISES)
  
  CAX features the United States Marine Corps in a three-day, locked and 
loaded,
  live-fire deployment involving thousands of Marines. In this exercise, 
Marines
  must first assault and occupy enemy territory, then defend it against a
  counter-assault in the California desert.
  
  Executive producers for War Games are J.J. Jamieson and John Barchilon. Mike
  Sears is directing and David Hudson is producing. WAR GAMES is produced by
  Grindstone Productions and Avenue Pictures Television.
  
  TBS Superstation is the TV Haven for the Regular Guy. Turner Broadcasting
  System, Inc.'s flagship entertainment network, the Superstation reaches 80.7
  million households and is cable's most-watched network, a position it has 
held
  for 23 consecutive years. TBS Superstation offers high-profile original 
  movies and
  series, blockbuster movies, popular series and sports, all reflecting the 
  attitudes,
  tastes, values and beliefs of the Regular Guy and the people in his life. 
The
  Superstation's Web site is located at TBSsuperstation.com.
  
  Note: A Photo is available at URL:
  http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/photo.cgi?pw.112700/bb3 




From declan at well.com  Mon Mar  5 16:22:10 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:22:10 -0500
Subject: June 2, 1999 OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON FROM 240 ECONOMISTS ON ANTITRUST PROTECTIONISM
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303211036.00c12e30@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 09:12:53PM -1000
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193033.036f7250@flex.com> <v04220804b6c75f45b676@[198.4.94.244]> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193033.036f7250@flex.com> <20010304013808.A19482@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303211036.00c12e30@flex.com>
Message-ID: <20010305192210.A18487@cluebot.com>


On Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 09:12:53PM -1000, Reese wrote:
> I have no problem with that.  I will ask though, which of the lists
> Matt posted to, was yours - I'm too lazy to go back and look, and I

Check the archives...

-Declan




From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Mon Mar  5 18:22:25 2001
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:22:25 -0700
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs
Message-ID: <3a1cd8c4110c4cc302968e5a19f4d587@noisebox.remailer.org>

Reply-to: Meyer Wolfsheim <wolf at priori.net>

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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Mar  5 11:49:28 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:49:28 +0000
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & Packet, et.  al.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com> <200103042344.f24NiDa14311@choice.drlogick.com> <3AA3AEE8.EB9F16BF@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> <200103051158.f25BwAE32603@choice.drlogick.com>
Message-ID: <3AA3EDC8.255788BA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


How stupid do I look wrote:

> Kenneth?  Kenneth?  Where for art thou, Kenneth?

I'm here, but being English I politely look the other way and say
"hello".

Ken Brown




From djb at gci.net  Mon Mar  5 21:02:51 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:02:51 -0900
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & 
  Packet, et. al.
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGEAECFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c0a5fa$b2550fe0$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


> Daniel said: "Next Question?"
>
> Do you have a problem with commitment? I do not mean to imply that you
> aren't faithful.
>
> -Aimee

What, you mean the game is over?  I thought there was a question #2.

Besides, option (b) was "take the woman", not "keep the woman."  Any honest
man will tell you that revising the wording makes the question more
difficult.  Until you change the question, my attitudes toward commitment
are irrelevant.

Irrelevant, irrelevant, that word has a ring.  Oh yeah, I remember, that's
what she thought our commitment was when she decided to move out.  <wry
smile>

What I should have said:  "My dear, that's not irrelevant, it's a
rhinocerous!"  At least it couldn't have worked any worse, and it might have
bought me a smile.

-- Daniel

=======================================================
The Law Office of Daniel J. Boone
326 Fourth Avenue, Suite B
Juneau, Alaska  99801
djb at gci.net
=======================================================
"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe when the
legislature is in session."  -- Judge Gideon Tucker
=======================================================




From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Mon Mar  5 18:32:04 2001
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:32:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Down In Arkansas
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10103052029130.20484-100000@cavern.uark.edu>


Tell me what you think of this thing, introduced into
the Arkansas Legislature today?

http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/ftproot/bills/2001/htm/SB975.pdf

Child porn, hacking, and more, and more.
MacN




From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Mon Mar  5 18:40:35 2001
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:40:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & 
  Packet, et. al.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103050825200.26081-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10103052036200.23489-100000@cavern.uark.edu>


Well, this is obviously the Adam and Eve deal from 
Genesis reworked to trap the unwary.  If you look at
the choices closely, there's no good answer. At least
there's no answer other than "run away" that won't 
keep Jehovah from kicking your ass out of Eden. And
who knows, if Adam had tried that one, we might still
be in the same shape today anyhow. God's got a long
sleeve and plenty of tricks up it. 
MacN  


> On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
> 
> >CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> >
> >QUESTION #1.
> >
> >You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> >magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> >
> >1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> >
> >(a) you bite the apple.
> >(b) you take the woman.
> >(c) you run away.
> >(d) a and b, but not c.
> >(e) b and c only.
> >(f) all of the above.
> >(g) none of the above.




From hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Mon Mar  5 19:43:08 2001
From: hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:43:08 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &  Packet, et.  
 al.
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPCEAFCFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3AA45CC1.28BA8B7F@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


       Not in the slightest, note that I said "both the above, *or perhaps* the
reverse. I'm a goddess worshiper -- and some of the feminine spirits I commune
and commingle with don't even take human form, let alone "beautiful,
unclothed".   8-)  I do like to nibble tho.

Aimee Farr wrote:

> Harmon Seaver: another "take apple, bite woman guy." Are you bothered by
> feminine ambiguity?
>
>         -Aimee
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> > Behalf Of Harmon Seaver
> > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:21 AM
> > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> > Subject: Re: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
> > Packet, et. al.
> >
> >
> > How stupid do I look wrote:
> >
> > > Not enough information.
> > >
> > > Please clarify the following ambiguities:
> > >
> > >         What kind of an apple is it?
> >
> >     A magic one, of course.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Is she a witch?  Magic scares me.
> >
> >      Why? A female spirit appears to you, that's a "Good Thing", eh?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Is the woman a het, or a mongoose bull-dyke?
> >
> >       Only one way to find out, but probably if she's appearing
> > to you nude,
> > it's obvious.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Whose definition of beautiful are we using here, anyways?
> >
> >       Wouldn't she have the capability of appearing just right for you?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Why would I be walking through the woods alone?
> >
> >        Good grief, why not? Are you afraid of the dark too? I prefer being
> > in the woods alone, or perhaps with my dog. And She Who Speaks often
> > whispers in my ear at such times, which probably won't happen if
> > others are
> > near, unless they happen to be tuned in to the same frequency at
> > the moment.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> > > >
> > > > (a) you bite the apple.
> > > > (b) you take the woman.
> >
> >        Both of the above, or perhaps the reverse -- take the
> > apple and bite
> > the woman.
> >
> > >
> > > > (c) you run away.
> > > > (d) a and b, but not c.
> > > > (e) b and c only.
> > > > (f) all of the above.
> > > > (g) none of the above.
> > >
> > > > 2. Please justify your answer:
> > >
> >
> >            I'm always looking for encounters with female spirits.
> >
> >




From dropped_packet at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 22:00:11 2001
From: dropped_packet at hotmail.com (Dropped Packet)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:00:11 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &  Packet, et.   al.
Message-ID: <F231yfyz5b6KZmcK8r60000040e@hotmail.com>


"don't even take human form" ???? Well I guess that rules out inflatable 
dates?  Are you boinking (non-third mudball) aliens (not that there's 
anything wrong with that I guess) or am I a clueless sot with a level of 
imagination that could only be spotted with an electron microsocope?




))       Not in the slightest, note that I said "both the above, *or 
((perhaps* the
))reverse. I'm a goddess worshiper -- and some of the feminine spirits I 
((commune
))and commingle with don't even take human form, let alone "beautiful,
((unclothed".   8-)  I do like to nibble tho.

Aimee Farr wrote:

>Harmon Seaver: another "take apple, bite woman guy." Are you bothered by
>feminine ambiguity?
>
>         -Aimee
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> > Behalf Of Harmon Seaver
> > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:21 AM
> > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> > Subject: Re: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown &
> > Packet, et. al.
> >
> >
> > How stupid do I look wrote:
> >
> > > Not enough information.
> > >
> > > Please clarify the following ambiguities:
> > >
> > >         What kind of an apple is it?
> >
> >     A magic one, of course.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Is she a witch?  Magic scares me.
> >
> >      Why? A female spirit appears to you, that's a "Good Thing", eh?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Is the woman a het, or a mongoose bull-dyke?
> >
> >       Only one way to find out, but probably if she's appearing
> > to you nude,
> > it's obvious.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Whose definition of beautiful are we using here, anyways?
> >
> >       Wouldn't she have the capability of appearing just right for you?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Why would I be walking through the woods alone?
> >
> >        Good grief, why not? Are you afraid of the dark too? I prefer 
>being
> > in the woods alone, or perhaps with my dog. And She Who Speaks often
> > whispers in my ear at such times, which probably won't happen if
> > others are
> > near, unless they happen to be tuned in to the same frequency at
> > the moment.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> > > >
> > > > (a) you bite the apple.
> > > > (b) you take the woman.
> >
> >        Both of the above, or perhaps the reverse -- take the
> > apple and bite
> > the woman.
> >
> > >
> > > > (c) you run away.
> > > > (d) a and b, but not c.
> > > > (e) b and c only.
> > > > (f) all of the above.
> > > > (g) none of the above.
> > >
> > > > 2. Please justify your answer:
> > >
> >
> >            I'm always looking for encounters with female spirits.
> >
> >


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From skippym at home.com  Mon Mar  5 21:03:59 2001
From: skippym at home.com (skippym)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 23:03:59 -0600
Subject: WANTING INFO
Message-ID: <000801c0a5fa$dda59fc0$4d6e6c18@ivideon.com>

CAN A CANADIAN GET A JOB STUFFING ENVELOPES. AND HOW DOES ONE APPLY. NAME OF COMPANY .REASON FOR COST TO START.HOW MUCH DOES IT PAY IN CANADA
                                                 THANK YOU
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From HipHopProductions-owner at yahoogroups.com  Mon Mar  5 15:37:38 2001
From: HipHopProductions-owner at yahoogroups.com (HipHopProductions moderator)
Date: 5 Mar 2001 23:37:38 -0000
Subject: Invitation to join the HipHopProductions group 
Message-ID: <983835458.2027.31277.je@yahoogroups.com>



Hello,

You've been invited to join the HipHopProductions group,
an email group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use email group
service.

JOIN NOW, IT'S EASY: 

1) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
in your email program

-OR-

2) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site at
   http://groups.yahoo.com/invite/HipHopProductions?email=cypherpunks%40toad%2Ecom&iref=9bEjWOgifcntFbJZpRCDQqb1Nt0
Yahoo! Groups makes it easy to participate in email discussions,
coordinate events, share photos and files, and more.

NOTE: This is an announcement or newsletter group, so only the group
moderator may post messages. Also, some or all group web features
may be disabled at the moderator's discretion.

Here's an introductory message from the group moderator:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello,

Welcome to Hip Hop Promotions eGroup.  This group will hit you off with the latest information in new Hip Hop/Rap and R&B.  Only the Hottest music, Free MP3z, and CD Giveaways posted through links on a Periodic basis.  NO Bombarding your e-mail with unnecessary junk mail.  This is ONLY an Invitation to join.  To Join, simply reply to this e-mail.  If you do not want to join ignore this message AND DO NOT REPLY!!! If you reply you will be added and we don't want anyone joining that doesn't want to.


Regards,

Moderator, HipHopProductions

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you do not wish to join the HipHopProductions group, please
ignore this invitation.

SPECIAL NOTE FROM Yahoo! Groups:  Because Yahoo! Groups values your privacy,
it is a violation of our service rules for moderators to abuse this 
invitation feature. If you feel this has happened, please notify us
at abuse at yahoogroups.com 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 







From HipHopProductions-owner at yahoogroups.com  Mon Mar  5 17:19:47 2001
From: HipHopProductions-owner at yahoogroups.com (HipHopProductions Moderator)
Date: 6 Mar 2001 01:19:47 -0000
Subject: Welcome to HipHopProductions 
Message-ID: <983841587.1433.27656.j4@yahoogroups.com>



Hello,

Welcome to Hip Hop Promotions eGroup.  This group will hit you off with the latest information in new Hip Hop/Rap and R&B.  Only the Hottest music, Free MP3z, and CD Giveaways posted through links on a Periodic basis.  NO Bombarding your e-mail with unnecessary junk mail.  This is ONLY an Invitation to join.  To Join, simply reply to this e-mail.  If you do not want to join ignore this message AND DO NOT REPLY!!! If you reply you will be added and we don't want anyone joining that doesn't want to.


Regards,

Moderator, HipHopProductions


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

 







From virginia at easywinning.com  Mon Mar  5 23:15:08 2001
From: virginia at easywinning.com (Virginia Suzan)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 02:15:08 -0500
Subject: 100 Million Dollar Jackpot... Guaranteed
Message-ID: <200103060850.AAA29718@toad.com>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 05:21:19 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 07:21:19 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Napster Going Offshore?
Message-ID: <3AA4E44F.F0D38E4F@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/06/0025244.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 05:24:26 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 07:24:26 -0600
Subject: The Register- CIA upgrades ECHELON
Message-ID: <3AA4E50A.D85C5551@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17361.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 05:25:55 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 07:25:55 -0600
Subject: The Register - Napster moves to HavenCo
Message-ID: <3AA4E563.5DB96F5A@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17360.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Mar  6 07:52:54 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 07:52:54 -0800
Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
In-Reply-To: <000a01c0a51b$523551e0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <a05010401b6c8a0ff0de3@[10.0.0.2]>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010306075124.02b8d108@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 09:23 PM 3/4/2001 -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
 > David,
 >
 >	You still don't get it. 'Read my book' is not a valid move in
 >	a debate. If you were to stand up in front of the Oxford
 >	Union and say 'my book proves the case entirely' then sat
 >	down with no further elaboration you lose the debate.

This depends on the relative status of the debaters.  Your status as an 
expert is perhaps less than you perceive it to be.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      7nyEypwoXGtjljpB281LxgekQkbzCtLPiWYid99E
      4L9TA3M8sE2epY4cVpAqzGwPC9S1AKAsQ7SuF2+nq




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Mar  6 08:11:02 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 08:11:02 -0800
Subject: [references!] Why Not debate "network externality"-path
  dependence?
In-Reply-To: <200103050244.VAA00078@oobleck.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010306080254.02b8b600@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 0944 PM 3/4/2001 -0500, Seth Finkelstein wrote
 >       It's already been much-debated. It's just hard to find the
 >       debate among the quasi-spam of the cult proselytizing

I sampled one of your lengthy list of citations at random, 
(http//www.eh.net/Publications/pathdepend.shtml) and it read as if written 
by an English lit critic trained in postmodernism, rather than someone with 
actual economic qualifications.  This did not encourage me to read any of 
the others.

Nonetheless I doggedly persisted, and read another, taken at random.

 > "At last, a remedy for chronic QWERTY-skepticism! by Paul A. David"
 > http//www.eh.net/Publications/remedy.shtml

And encountered a complete absence of any actual facts or argument, a spew 
of words with the form, but not the substance, of an argument, an emission 
of meaningless fog reminiscent of Chomsky caught in a lie.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      j1rqvawRra0Q8bVfBLpenoqAnD5gRq2hPJ26gm9u
      4sEkuJlfQ1yTzU+x9O3JC1KoaIHSu+ri3Gn9vBFVF




From jwarren at well.com  Tue Mar  6 08:52:06 2001
From: jwarren at well.com (Jim Warren)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:52:06 -0800
Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010306075124.02b8d108@shell11.ba.best.com>
References: <a05010401b6c8a0ff0de3@[10.0.0.2]>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010306075124.02b8d108@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <p0501041db6cac5b6b615@[208.177.135.210]>


Uh ... folks --

I'm not quite sure how I got on the cc-list of this ongoing harangue, 
but please DELETE MY NAME from further flames back'n'forth.

Thanks.

--jim




From BF at farc.org  Tue Mar  6 08:56:53 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 08:56:53 -0800
Subject: pig latin for RIAA pigs
Message-ID: <3AA516D5.7319639A@farc.org>





                      Why would I need the Aimster Pig Encoder?

                           As of Sunday March 4, 2001, at midnight,
Napster began
                           monitoring the file names that its users put
into the Napster
                           database, for the purpose of blocking certain
file names. This is a serious invasion of
                           your privacy as a Napster user. The file
names on your hard drive are your personal
                           property and should not be monitored by
anyone without your permission. The Aimster
                           Pig Encoder makes it more difficult for
anyone to monitor the file names on your
                           computer.


                      What does the Aimster Pig Encoder do?

                           The Aimster Pig Encoder is very simple but
effective. It takes each of the file names of
                           the mp3 files in your Napster directory and
encodes the file names so that the name
                           cannot be easily monitored.


                      What does it mean to "Encode" the file names?

                           The Aimster Pig Encoder encodes the file
names by simply changing the words in the file
                           name very slightly. For example, "Music"
becomes "usicM", "Hello" becomes "elloH",
                           and you can guess what becomes "uckF ouY, ouY
pyS astardsB".

http://www.aimster.com/pigencoder.phtml




From BF at farc.org  Tue Mar  6 08:58:31 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 08:58:31 -0800
Subject: sssh, pig latin is a trade secret like CSS
Message-ID: <3AA51736.2C486BE9@farc.org>


Can I tell someone about how the Aimster Pig Encoder works?

                           IMPORTANT WARNING: DO NOT TELL ANYONE how the
Aimster Pig Encoder
                           works. Disclosing how the Aimster Pig Encoder
works may be a violation of a federal
                           law called the DMCA and subject to up to a
$500,000 fine and 5 years in prison!
                           Seriously, we are not joking about this,
although we would agree that the situation
                           sounds quite funny (if it wasn't so sad).
There is already a similar case in which someone
                           has been found guilty simply for printing an
encoder secret on a t-shirt! If anyone asks
                           you how the Aimster Pig Encoder works, tell
them to download it and find out for
                           themselves!


                      But won't spies and eavesdroppers just figure out
how the Aimster Pig Encoder works and
                      monitor my file names anyway!?

                           Possibly yes, but it won't be nearly as easy.
And if they do, they may be violating the
                           same federal law called the DMCA and
themselves be subject to up to a $500,000 fine
                           and 5 years in prison! Now that really is
funny (and not quite so sad). Peace out. And
                           please check out Aimster at www.aimster.com,
if you have a chance. Aimster is the first
                           file and messaging service to give you full
encryption over all your messages and files -
                           we think it's one of the best protections for
your privacy on the internet available today.





From Bradley.J.Gagnon at ps.net  Tue Mar  6 07:28:48 2001
From: Bradley.J.Gagnon at ps.net (Gagnon, Bradley J)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:28:48 -0600 
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <8F31BE142C54D21194BD0008C756AD6C042BF238@resexch01.res.ps.net>


Dear Sir,
	I am in the market to locate and purchase a Glock 17L with 3 G17 (17
round) old style magazines with the +2 extenders on all three.  I realize
these may be costly and a little difficult to find.  As you appear to be an
enthusiast and a wealth of information-it would be greatly appreciated if
you could provide any assistance that would help me to do so.  Please feel
free to contact me at any time.  I am also looking for 3 G21 (13 round) .45
magazines.  
	Your time and consideration is greatly appreciated.

			Bradley J. Gagnon
			Executive Security
			Perot Systems (A Ross Perot Corporation)
			bradley.j.gagnon at ps.net
			(703)716-7024 wk
			(703)856-9288 cell
			(703)257-4145 hm




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Mar  6 07:41:28 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:41:28 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | AIMster Uses Pig Latin Encryption to Defeat RIAA
Message-ID: <3AA50528.9C80E714@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/06/1448236.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From eric at vidbidness.net  Tue Mar  6 10:08:49 2001
From: eric at vidbidness.net (Eric)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:08:49 -0800
Subject: On-topic?
Message-ID: <mailman.371.1576007501.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Hey Matt-

LOVE Freematt's Alerts; please keep it coming.

This may be a little off your beaten path, but it has affected us 
strongly, and I believe there's a first-amendment issue here. We run 
an adult site (well, more a 'risque' site), and had a good year - 
then donated some money to charity, and being very self-satisfied, 
linked to the charities from our site. They got wind of it (because 
of rants from some religious-righties we were battling with), and 
threatened to send the legal goon squads after us. The story is here:

http://www.loverscaughtontape.com/nytimes.html

A fan of ours entered the fray also:

  http://www.tdavis.org/stjude/

I hope you find it suitable to run, but thanks either way!

Best,

Eric

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From info at optinmail.cc  Tue Mar  6 11:20:24 2001
From: info at optinmail.cc (info at optinmail.cc)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:20:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bankruptcy laws changing!!  ACT NOW!  => cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <200103061920.LAA03605@toad.com>

IF YOU EVER THOUGHT ABOUT WIPING OUT YOUR PERSONAL DEBT USING BANKRUPTCY YOU BETTER ACT QUICKLY!

The New Congress is quickly pushing through legislation that will make it drastically MORE DIFFICULT for the average, hardworking American to get a 'fresh start' in life by eliminating their debt using personal bankruptcy

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AOL USERS:
<a href="http://www.optinmail.cc/clickthrough/clickthrough.php?id=3">Click Below To Learn More</a>
  
A large portion of the people who now qualify to have their debt completely eliminated in a chapter 7 bankruptcy will be FORCED to pay back all or a portion of their debt over several years.  This drastic change signifies what could be your last chance to get a FRESH START under the currently FAVORABLE bankruptcy laws. 

You still have time to file before the new law passes, but you should act quickly!  This informative article will help you determine whether personal bankruptcy is the best decision for you and save you thousands of dollars in AVOIDING lawyer fees.

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*************************************************************************************
This is not an unsolicited email. By request, your email address has 
been registered and double verified to receive optin mail promotions.
If you do not wish to receive these emails and want to remove
yourself from the terms of this verification, please click the link below:
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Click Here To Unsubscribe</a>
**************************************************************************************
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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Mar  6 11:40:36 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:40:36 -0800
Subject: arrgh
Message-ID: <3AA53D34.FA1E5518@lsil.com>


>Re: CDR: i want to build a bomb 
>your nightmare wrote:
>> 
>> hello i want to know how to build a bomb can you send back to me
>
>Send your request to this guy: Jeff.Gordon at tigta.treas.gov he will get you
>all the details you need.  Tell him you know Jim Bell personally and worked
>with him on "Assasination Politics" and you know Toto from Canada.
>
Shouldn't the proper reference be "Toto too" instead of "Toto from
Canada" ?

Has anyone tracked down these goofy requests and compiled some
statistics about what the hell they are?

BTW - what is the actual law regarding discussing the requested topic (
and related topics ) over various communications media?




From js at febland.worldonline.co.uk  Tue Mar  6 03:53:26 2001
From: js at febland.worldonline.co.uk (JS)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:53:26 -0000
Subject: Can we delete?
Message-ID: <004201c0a634$116adc60$139e403e@default>

Is there some way of 'getting rid' of this page (http://www.inet-one.com.my/cypherpunks/dir.1999.09.13-1999.09.19/msg00191.html ) from the Internet?
 
Many Thanks,
 
Yours sincerely,
 

Jonathan FeBland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More about me:


http://members.nbci.com/befnoj/


My latest CD:



http://music.peoplesound.com/artists/artisthome.asp?country=en&artistID=953382

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From sethf at sethf.com  Tue Mar  6 09:55:42 2001
From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:55:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bruce Ennis, Seth Finkelstein, and Stephanie Perrin win EFF Awards
Message-ID: <mailman.372.1576007501.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

	Bruce Ennis, Stephanie Perrin, and myself (Seth Finkelstein)
have been honored as Internet luminaries, winners of the 2001
Electronic Frontier Foundation Pioneer Awards. The press release
below is also available on the web, at

http://www.eff.org/awards/20010305_pioneer_press_release.html

__
Seth Finkelstein  Consulting Programmer  sethf at sethf.com  http://sethf.com


Electronic Frontier Foundation Press Release March 5, 2001

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

    Monday March 5th, 2001

    ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION (EFF) PIONEER AWARDS HONOR INTERNET
    LUMINARIES

    Ennis, Finkelstein, and Perrin Presented Awards at EFF's Tenth Annual
    Pioneer Awards Ceremony

    Contact: Katina Bishop, Electronic Frontier Foundation
    (415) 436-9333 ext. 101 or
    (617) 492-1234 - during CFP from 3/5 - 3/9

    Monday, March 5, 2001, Boston, MA -- The ceremony for EFF's Tenth
    Annual Pioneer Awards will take place at the New England Aquarium on
    March 8, 2001, in conjunction with the Computers, Freedom and Privacy
    conference this week in Cambridge, MA. The online civil liberties
    group chose to honor Bruce Ennis, in appreciation of his lifelong
    commitment to the legal defense of free expression and the First
    Amendment; Seth Finkelstein, for his dedication to raising the level
    of public awareness about the dangers to free expression posed by
    Internet content blocking and labeling systems; and Stephanie Perrin,
    for her instrumental and long-term role in advancing understanding and
    protection of privacy internationally and in her home country of
    Canada.

    Since 1991, the EFF Pioneer Awards have recognized individuals who
    have made significant and influential contributions to the development
    of computer-mediated communications or to the empowerment of
    individuals in using computers and the Internet.

    Bruce Ennis - Described by the legal press as one of the most
    influential attorneys in the country, Bruce Ennis devoted much of his
    life and practice to defending intellecual freedom. Bruce argued many
    crucial First Amendment cases before the U.S. Supreme Court and lower
    courts, including the landmark free speech victory in ACLU v. Reno
    (the "Communications Decency Act" case). Sadly, Ennis passed away
    earlier this year, but his contributions to free expression on the
    Internet live on but his contributions to free expression and press in
    the Internet, news reporting, political and other spheres live on.

    Seth Finkelstein - Anti-censorship activist and programmer Seth
    Finkelstein spent hundreds of unpaid and uncredited hours over several
    years to decrypt and expose to public scrutiny the secret contents of
    the most popular censorware blacklists. Seth has been active in
    raising the level of public awareness about the dangers that Internet
    content blocking software and rating/labeling schemes pose to freedom
    of communication. His work has armed many with information of great
    assistance in the fight against government mandated use of these
    systems.

    Stephanie Perrin - internationally recognized privacy and freedom of
    information expert Perrin spent 5 years engineering Canada's inspiring
    new privacy law (PIPEDA), among 15 years of important privacy and
    cryptography policy work, and has bridged the government, nonprofit
    and commercial sectors in privacy technology, policy, standards and
    education. Perrin has also been involved in privacy protection issues
    at the global scale, on the OECD Security and Privacy Committee, and
    made signifcant contributions to understanding technical privacy
    protection issues.

    "We, as a community of people respecting rights in technology, do not
    take enough opportunity to honor our own," stated Shari Steele,
    Executive Director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "Bruce,
    Stephanie and Seth are shining examples of the spirit and energy that
    makes good things happen. We're proud to present them with this year's
    Pioneer Awards."

    The judges for this year's EFF Pioneer Awards were: Herb Brody (Senior
    Editor, Technology Review) Whitfield Diffie (Distinguished Engineer,
    Sun Microsystems) Moira Gunn (Host, "Tech Nation", National Public
    Radio) Donna L. Hoffman (Associate Professor of Management, Vanderbilt
    University) Peter G. Neumann (Principal Scientist, SRI Intl.;
    Moderator, ACM Risks Forum) Drazen Pantic (Media & Tech. Director, NYU
    Center for War, Peace, & the News Media) Barbara Simons (past
    President, Association for Computing Machinery, & U.C. Berkeley
    Distinguished Alumnus) Karen G. Schneider (Technical Director,
    Shenendehowa Public Library, NY)

    The Tenth Annual EFF Pioneer Awards ceremony will be held on the
    evening of March 8th, 2001, at the New England Aquarium. The ceremony
    and reception are made possible by contributions from Guardent,
    Michael Golub and Mark Belden, MEconomy, Inc, Organic, Inc, Privada,
    Inc., and Sun Microsystems.

    For more information on EFF Pioneer Awards, see:
    http://www.eff.org/awards/pioneer.html

    For more information on the Electronic Frontier Foundation see:
      http://www.eff.org

About EFF:

    The Electronic Frontier Foundation is the leading civil liberties
    organization working to protect rights in the digital world. Founded
    in 1990, EFF actively encourages and challenges industry and
    government to support free expression, privacy, and openness in the
    information society. EFF is a member-supported organization and
    maintains one of the most linked-to Web sites in the world:
      http://www.eff.org


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Mar  6 13:07:42 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:07:42 -0800
Subject: Trampling on the theory of path dependence
In-Reply-To: <00e701c0a67e$26187100$1501a8c0@ang394>
References: <v04220800b6caf6f916d8@[198.4.94.177]>
  <00e701c0a67e$26187100$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6cb00a40af5@[207.111.241.197]>


At 3:43 PM -0500 3/6/01, JayHolovacs wrote:
>While I find it difficult to discount the examples of path dependence so
>glibly, this begs the question.
>
>Even if path dependence occurs, there is no reason why the government (or
>any other body) is in a significantly better position to pick the winners
>and losers than the market is. When a standard evolves, it is useful that
>the government keep one party from locking out others from access to the
>standard, but not determining what the standard should be.

Needless to say, many of us believe it is no business whatsoever of 
the government to "keep one party from locking out others from access 
to the standard."

If I am developing my Superaptical Frammalobber, it is no business of 
the government to enter my premises and/or demand that I reveal its 
secrets so that others may jump in.

In fact, the government supports bother "trade secrets" _and_ patents.

And, more generally, many of us do not even support "obvious" 
applications of the Sherman Antitrust Law.

Haloid, later Xerox, was not required to help others match its 
undeniable standard.

Likewise, and more recently, Intel is not compelled to share its 
design tricks, or its bus specifications, with other chip companies.

I realized this post will not reach Cyberia-L or fight-censorship. I 
wish this promiscuous cross-posting would cease.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Mar  6 10:21:19 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:21:19 -0500
Subject: Bruce Ennis, Seth Finkelstein, and Stephanie Perrin win EFF Awards
Message-ID: <v04220816b6cadaa96dba@[198.4.94.231]>


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  Seth Finkelstein is to be congratulated. 
I've probably traded thousands of messages with him over the years, 
sometimes pugnaciously, but Seth has worked doggedly and effectively 
against filtering [censorware] software blacklists that ban free 
access to information.  Seth's an extremely bright fellow with 
degrees from MIT and was a finalist during his high school years for 
White-Westinghouse's National Science Fair.  Again, let me publicly 
thank Seth for all of his hard work.- ]



From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Mar  6 10:32:31 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:32:31 -0500
Subject: i want to build a bomb
References: <F110acH0xxDEA2VqFnW00000c59@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AA52D3F.DAC1547D@sunder.net>


your nightmare wrote:
> 
> hello i want to know how to build a bomb can you send back to me

Send your request to this guy: Jeff.Gordon at tigta.treas.gov he will get you
all the details you need.  Tell him you know Jim Bell personally and worked
with him on "Assasination Politics" and you know Toto from Canada.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Tue Mar  6 10:39:39 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:39:39 -0500
Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010306075124.02b8d108@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <000301c0a66c$cdafc060$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


You still don't get it. 'Experts' don't get a free ride when they attempt to
influence public policy.

What does the 'status of the debaters' amount to if not an elitist and
antidemcratic ad hominem? What meat does Theroux eat that means that he gets
to decide who is and who is not an expert?

		Phill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: James A. Donald [mailto:jamesd at echeque.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 10:53 AM
> To: Phillip Hallam-Baker; 'David Theroux'
> Cc: 'James A. Donald'; 'Declan McCullagh'; 'Paul Spirito'; 'Colin A.
> Reed'; 'Ken Brown'; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu;
> cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; CYBERIA-L at listserv.aol.com; 'Jim Warren';
> 'Jonathan Wallace'; 'Matthew Gaylor'
> Subject: RE: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
>
>
>      --
> At 09:23 PM 3/4/2001 -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>  > David,
>  >
>  >	You still don't get it. 'Read my book' is not a valid move in
>  >	a debate. If you were to stand up in front of the Oxford
>  >	Union and say 'my book proves the case entirely' then sat
>  >	down with no further elaboration you lose the debate.
>
> This depends on the relative status of the debaters.  Your
> status as an
> expert is perhaps less than you perceive it to be.
>
>      --digsig
>           James A. Donald
>       6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
>       7nyEypwoXGtjljpB281LxgekQkbzCtLPiWYid99E
>       4L9TA3M8sE2epY4cVpAqzGwPC9S1AKAsQ7SuF2+nq
>
>




From at1last at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 13:40:25 2001
From: at1last at hotmail.com (at1last at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:40:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Easiest Way for Profitable HOME WORK! You can too cypherpunks!                                                                                                                                                            . -CLWQ
Message-ID: <200103062140.NAA19833@cyberpass.net>


You can too, cypherpunks! Go to
http://www.virtue.nu/at1last/
http://at1last.jobarecords.net
http://www.geocities.com/at1last/

I am contracted from home to simply place FREE classified advertising.
I am paid PER Response to every ad that I place. No one even has to
purchase anything from the ads - just respond!
You can too, cypherpunks! Send blank e-mail to rw1vic at yahoo.com


How does this work? There is an advertising firm who is hired by various
businesses to design & implement Ad campaigns. The easiest way for them to
do this is through profitable classified ads.
Each week as an Ad Placer you will be sent various ads to place for
different companies. Our only obligation is to place the ads. NO Selling of
any products and NO correspondence. All replies are sent directly to
advertising firm or their clients, you will NEVER have to handle any mail or
correspond with replies.
Just place the ads and get paid!

To make this even better, advertising firm is offering (for a limited time)
positions of Recruitment Supervisors to hire and manage homeworkers. I am a
professional Ad Placer as well as a Recruitment Supervisor. This is where a
lot of profit can be made because not only will you be paid for every
response that you receive from ads BUT also for EVERY Response received by
anyone that YOU cypherpunks recruit to place ads from home!

IT's EASY! Just Place our client's ads that we provide on the FREE Internet
Sites that we give you and/or in print. You are paid PER RESPONSE - no one
has to buy anything from the ads - just respond. NO CATCHES! Easy &
Profitable! Start TODAY!
http://www.virtue.nu/at1last/
http://at1last.jobarecords.net
http://www.geocities.com/at1last/

Your earning potential is great! I know that you cypherpunks must have a lot of
questions so go to URLs
or feel free to email me rw1vic at yahoo.com with any questions or concerns
that you may have. I have nothing to hide and you have everything to gain!
Welcome to the profitable Ad Placement Program!
********************************************************************
Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email 
may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply 
with the word REMOVE in the subject line.





From direct at direct.caravan.ru  Tue Mar  6 03:27:31 2001
From: direct at direct.caravan.ru (direct at direct.caravan.ru)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:27:31 +0300
Subject: SasLib.ru
Message-ID: <E14aFcp-000Jdy-00@www.direct.caravan.ru>


Если эта информация Вам не интересна √ приносим свои извинения.


Представляем крупнейший центр в runet.
Задуманные массштабы пока не до конца реализованны.
На февраль 2001 обогнали всех в своей области.
Гордимся.
Не хватает новых мнений для оценки направлений развития, а так все есть.
Адрес на сложный √ www.saslib.ru.

================================================================================

Esli dannaya informatsiya Vam ne interesna √ prinosim svoi izvineniya.

Predstavlyaem krupneishiy centr v runet.
Zadumannie masshtabi poka ne do kontsa realizovanni.
Na fevral 2001 obognali vseh v svoey oblasty.
Gordimsya.
Ne hvataet novih mneniy dlya otsenki napravleniy razvitiya, a tak vse est.
Adres prostoy - www.saslib.ru.

Vsem uspehov!
Gruppa sozdateley


Всем успехов!
Группа создателей.






From cab8 at censored.org  Tue Mar  6 11:34:20 2001
From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol Braddock)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:34:20 -0500
Subject: i want to build a bomb
In-Reply-To: <3AA52D3F.DAC1547D@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLFPFEHKIMANNHFCFOEBEDIAA.cab8@censored.org>

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From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Mar  6 12:43:21 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:43:21 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Anonymous Speech Litigation
Message-ID: <3AA54BE9.1E17113C@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/06/1644203.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From editor at newsletter.join4free.com  Tue Mar  6 14:45:09 2001
From: editor at newsletter.join4free.com (editor at newsletter.join4free.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:45:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Join4Free - The Sex Capitol Of The Net! => cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <200103062245.OAA11362@toad.com>

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From bf at farc.co  Tue Mar  6 14:53:47 2001
From: bf at farc.co (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:53:47 -0800
Subject: FLUENT and naif british reporters
Message-ID: <3AA56A7B.8D09E1EB@farc.co>


Greene writes in http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17361.html

                Presently, FLUENT can translate Chinese, Korean,
                 Portuguese, Russian, Serbo-Croatian and Ukrainian,
                 Reuters says.

                 The omissions are almost as telling as the languages
                 included. What, no Japanese, no Arabic, no Spanish, no
                 Hebrew, no French? Laotian and Navajo we can
                 understand, but what have we here? Laziness,
                 discrimination, or misplaced trust?

                 You make the call. ®

Silly lad, you believe the list is complete??

I thought reporters were supposed to think critically.

"Disinfo = Diplomacy"






From sean at hastings.ai  Tue Mar  6 15:17:19 2001
From: sean at hastings.ai (Sean Hastings)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:17:19 -0800
Subject: Sectional Parameter Hashing
Message-ID: <LOBBJCJJJBIOBEAFOIDCAEKLDBAA.sean@hastings.ai>


All,

This past week I have been thinking about a document format and hashing
method that allows arbitrary level partial disclosure of a verifiably signed
document, as well as formal reference/reuse of subdocuments inside of larger
documents. Basically it is a technique for using a hash tree within a
standard document format.

Below is a description of a system that satisfies some of my needs. I would
appreciate some feed back. Thanks.

--Sean Hastings
--mailto:sean at havenco.com
--vmsg/fax:1.800.why.sean

 - - -

<html>
<head>
<title>VOXP - Value and Obligation eXchange Processing</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
</head>

<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<h1>Sectional Parameter Hashing</h1>
<p>A description of a possible format and uses for documents that are
designed
  to behave like Hash Trees.</p>
<h2>0. Contents:</h2>
<blockquote>
  <p>0.) Contents</p>
  <p>1.) Format</p>
  <blockquote>
    <p>1.1) Headings</p>
    <p>1.2) Digests</p>
    <p>1.3) White Space</p>
  </blockquote>
  <p>2.) Storage</p>
  <blockquote>
    <p>2.1) Parameterization</p>
    <p>2.2) Text File</p>
    <p>2.3) Database</p>
  </blockquote>
  <p>3.) Parameters</p>
  <p>4.) Types</p>
  <blockquote>
    <p>3.1.) Signatures</p>
    <p>3.2.) Certificates</p>
    <p>3.3.) Vehicles</p>
  </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
<h2></h2>
<h2>1. Format:</h2>
<blockquote>
  <p>The system makes use of a document format and digest technique called
Sectional
    Parameter Hashing (SPH).</p>
  <p>The general document format is designed to support hashing technique in
which
    the subdocuments under a heading may be reduced to (or expanded from) a
text
    representation of its digest, without altering the overall documents
digest
    value. This is done by having a structured document format, and an
understood
    technique for computing the document's digest.</p>
  <h3>1.1 Sections:</h3>
  <blockquote>
    <p>A section is indicated with a heading followed by a colon followed by
a
      newline. This is followed by one or more lines of indented text, which
may
      include sub sections. Where no indented text follows the heading
designation,
      the section is considered to be empty. Where subsections are present,
they
      are always located after any original body text, and are ordered by
numeric
      character value of their heading's component characters. For
example:</p>
    <pre><code>report from alpha group
received:
	2001:02:25:21:52:07:258
report:
	We have met the enemy, and they have won.
	Regrouping to await further orders.
	casualties:
		heavy
	kia:
		Sgt. Ben Kilroy
		Pvt. John Brown
		Gen. May Ham
 	mia:
	situation:
		fubar</code></pre>
  </blockquote>
  <h3>1.2 Digests:</h3>
  <blockquote>
    <p>The idea of a digest (or hash) function is that a section of text can
be
      reduced to a unique value. This is used in digital signatures, where
the
      document to be signed is first reduced to a unique number, and then
that
      number is encrypted with the signing party's private key. The
resulting
      cipher text can be decrypted with the corresponding public key to
obtain
      the digest value, and if the document is known, it can be used to
recompute
      the digest value and see that they match. This allows any party to
verify
      that the holder of a certain private key has signed a given document.
It
      also allows any party to hold the record of a signature, without (yet)
having
      access to the document that was signed. At a later time the document
text
      can be produced and the signature verified.</p>
    <p>SPH uses a hashing by section protocol that allows a final hash of
any
      document (or subdocument) to be produced (and possibly signed) that
does
      not change with the expansion or collapse of a particular sub section
to
      its own unique digest value. This allows verifiable signatures to be
produced
      and disclosed with a great degree of variety as to how much of the
document
      needs be revealed to a particular party.</p>
    <p>This is done as follows. The digest of the entire document is
computed
      after first reducing contained subdocuments to a
HEADINGNAME:TEXTHASHCODE.
      The digest of each subdocument is computed the same way, with the
digests
      of its subdocuments computed first. Where a subsection is already
expressed
      as a digest, no work is done. By following this recursive process, the
same
      digest is obtained for any document, regardless of which headings and
sub
      headings may be revealed in plain text, or represented only by their
unique
      digest value.</p>
    <p>So our sample document above can be displayed as:</p>
    <pre><code>report from alpha group
received:
	2001:02:25:21:52:07:258
report:
	We have met the enemy, and they have won.
	Regrouping to await further orders.
	casualties:TEXTHASHCODE
	kia:TEXTHASHCODE
	mia:TEXTHASHCODE
	situation:TEXTHASHCODE</code></pre>
    <p>OR:</p>
    <pre><code>report from alpha group
received:
	2001:02:25:21:52:07:258
report:TEXTHASHCODE</code></pre>
    <p>OR:</p>
    <pre><code>report from alpha group
received:TEXTHASHCODE
report:TEXTHASHCODE</code></pre>
    <p> Whatever the combination of collapsed or expanded headings, the
digest
      computed for the entire document using the SPH technique will remain
the
      same. The final digest value will always represent a hash of the last
example
      above, regardless of how much or little of the document is known.</p>
  </blockquote>
  <h3>1.3 White Space:</h3>
  <blockquote>
    <blockquote>
      <h2></h2>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Headings must not begin or end with a whitespace character, but they
can
      include white space inside of them, and they must be terminated by a
colon.
      Any text after the colon will be interpreted as a digest of the
subdocument
      under the heading. If this text does not fit the format of the hash
(Sha1
      hex - 40 characters 0-1,A-F), the line will be interpreted as body
text,
      but if it is not properly positioned at the beginning of an indented
section
      to be body text, or the heading is not in proper alphanumeric order,
the
      document will be considered malformed.</p>
    <p>Indentation under each heading will take the form of a single
additional
      &lt;Tab&gt; character at the beginning of each line. Additional tabs
or
      whitespace beyond the expected level at the beginning of a document or
sub
      document before any headings will be considered part of body text.
Anywhere
      else, they will indicate a malformed document.</p>
    <p>These rules of heading indentation, naming, and order by alphanumeric
value
      are designed to ensure that there is only one possible way to rebuild
a
      stored document.</p>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
<h2>2. Storage:</h2>
<blockquote>
  <p>The text representation of the digest of a document can be used as a
name
    by which the document can be referenced. This allows SPH documents to be
stored
    in whole or part, broken into known component pieces.</p>
  <p>In addition to the advantages mentioned above, concerning disclosure of
only
    some portions of a signed document, the other big reason for storing
documents
    in multiple pieces is document reference and reuse. For example, a party
might
    create a document to described himself, containing both a public key and
personal
    data such as name, adders, email, and so on. This document could then be
referenced/included
    in other documents to refer to that party. Stored documents take the
form
    of document references, with different trees possibly sharing some of
the
    same branches..</p>
  <h3>2.1 Parameterization:</h3>
  <blockquote>
    <p>Document may be broken apart and stored internally as parameters with
sub
      parameters. The following represents a parameter breakdown of the
sample
      document above:</p>
    <pre><code>DOC.VALUE=&quot;report from alpha group&quot;
DOC.SEC1.NAME=&quot;received&quot;
DOC.SEC1.VALUE=&quot;2001:02:25:21:52:07:258&quot;
DOC.SEC2.NAME=&quot;report&quot;
DOC.SEC2.VALUE=&quot;We have met the enemy, and they have won./nRegrouping
to await further orders.&quot;
DOC.SEC2.SEC1.NAME=&quot;casualties&quot;
DOC.SEC2.SEC1.VALUE=&quot;heavy&quot;
DOC.SEC2.SEC2.NAME=&quot;kia&quot;
DOC.SEC2.SEC2.VALUE=&quot;Sgt. Ben Kilroy/nPvt. John Brown/nGen. May
Ham&quot;
DOC.SEC2.SEC3.NAME=&quot;mia&quot;
DOC.SEC2.SEC3.VALUE=&quot;&quot;
</code><code>DOC.SEC2.SEC4.NAME=&quot;situation&quot;
DOC.SEC2.SEC4.VALUE=&quot;fubar&quot;</code></pre>
  </blockquote>
  <h3>2.2 Text Files:</h3>
  <blockquote>
    <p>Documents can be easily stored as text files, with filenames
corresponding
      to the text representation of the contained documents digest. The
format
      is as follows:</p>
    <pre><code>FILENAME=TEXTHASHCODE.voxp
  body text
  heading1:TEXTHASHCODE-1
  heading2:TEXTHASHCODE-2
  headingN:TEXTHASHCODE-N</code></pre>
  </blockquote>
  <h3>2.3 Database:</h3>
  <blockquote>
    <p>Documents can be stored in two simple database tables defined as
follows:</p>
    <pre><code>TABLE documents
  digest   CHAR(40)  #40 for hex SHA-1
  bodytext VARCHAR

TABLE sections
  doc      CHAR(40)  #digest of parent document
  heading  CHAR(80)  #80 arbitrary max length for heading name
  sub      CHAR(40)  #digest of sub document</code></pre>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
<h2>3. Parameters</h2>
<blockquote>
  <p>A number of standard parameters can be defined for general purposes.
Some
    possibilities are: Author, Title, Date, Version, Type. There is no real
difference
    between a Parameter and a section containing a sub document. The only
obvious
    difference would be that a parameter would be a much smaller piece of
data
    - for example a Date, a number, or a short string. Note that Author
above
    could be a full certificate that describes the author, or just a hash of
same
    certificate.</p>
  <p>Since parameters like the number &quot;10&quot; would produce well
known
    digests, if concealing them is necessary, a protocol for adding random
noise
    to them should be included. For example, the number &quot;10&quot; and
&quot;10
    + 'SOMERANDOMENOISE'&quot; could be parsed the same by an application,
but
    the later would have an unrecognizable digest.</p>
  <p>Use of a standard set of parameters such as Author and Title and
Version
    in storage of the documents, could create an additional mechanism of
uniquely
    identifying a document other than just its hash code. If the document
storage
    and transfer system defines some standard parameters for such purposes,
it
    might be a good idea to prefix them with a designation and version
number
    like &quot;SPH0.1-Title&quot; or some such...</p>
</blockquote>
<h2>4. Types:</h2>
<blockquote>
  <p>Once a standard parameter called &quot;Type&quot; is defined, it makes
sense
    to define a few types. A few possibly useful types are (somewhat)
defined
    here.</p>
  <h3>4.1 Signatures:</h3>
  <blockquote>
    <p>Signature Documents make use of public key encryption techniques to
show
      that a party has digitally signed a given document. The body text
represents
      a digital signature of an SPH document digest. The defined headings
following
      this signature are Certificate and Document. The Certificate heading
contains
      a sub document identifying the signing party (see below). The Document
heading
      contains the document from which the signed SPH digest was
computed.</p>
  </blockquote>
  <h3>4.2 Certificates:</h3>
  <blockquote>
    <p>Certificate Documents associate real world obligations and identities
with
      specific public keys. The body text of the certificate contains text
representing
      a public key. The subsections of the certificate are called the
Assertions.
      These are such things as Name, Address, Phone Number, Email, etc., and
information
      on how the certified party plays certain defined roles in Vehicle
execution
      or other defined document types - such as rates charged for certain
services,
      whom they are willing to trade with, or a definition of their currency
and
      the real world goods/services for which their issued currency. A
currency
      can therefore be expressed simply as the digest of the certificate
that
      defines it - or perhaps more appropriately a digest of a Signature
document
      self signing the certificate that defines it.</p>
  </blockquote>
  <h3>4.3 Vehicles:</h3>
  <blockquote>
    <p> Vehicles contain information concerning the exchange of obligations
between
      parties. A vehicle is an executable document that specifies exchanges
of
      a user defined currency. A vehicle may also contain an agreement
binding
      to some of the signing parties.</p>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
<h1>etc... (work in progress)</h1>
</body>
</html>




From info at bacalao.net  Tue Mar  6 06:22:29 2001
From: info at bacalao.net (Bacalao.net)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:22:29 +0100
Subject: seafood offers
Message-ID: <200103061412.PAA25243@odin.mimer.no>


BACALAO.NET
-----------

Currently on our exhcange there are some interesting offers of 

GREENLAND HALIBUT 
MAHI-MAHI FILLETS
COD
ILLEX

 
Please look up http://bacalao.net for more information.

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From freematt at coil.com  Tue Mar  6 12:24:28 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:24:28 -0500
Subject: Trampling on the theory of path dependence
Message-ID: <v04220800b6caf6f916d8@[198.4.94.177]>


http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3OPVMLY 
JC&live=true


Tuesday Mar 6 2001 [FT.com] Financial Times

Trampling on the theory of path dependence
Microsoft's judges may decide that consumer approval rather than 
illegal tactics led to the company's power
Published: March 5 2001 19:49GMT | Last Updated: March 5 2001 20:07GMT

[amity schlaes]

Microsoft looks as if it may evade the dismemberment ordered in the 
finding sent up by Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson. Not only have 
federal appeals court judges shown some sympathy for the company's 
case, but the Bush administration may also revise antitrust policy 
and offer it a settlement. Microsoft stock's recent rise reflects 
these new prospects.

But what about the underlying theory that convinced Judge Jackson 
that Microsoft needed dismantling in the first place? He leaned 
repeatedly towards an economic idea known as path dependence.

The position that the appeals court or the Justice Department take on 
this issue will do much to determine Microsoft's fate. Path 
dependence is also a key part of modern monopoly theory generally, so 
has a bearing on other antitrust cases.

So what precisely is it? Path dependence says that a company may gain 
an overwhelming advantage in a market if it manages to establish an 
industry standard before anyone else. That standard then becomes so 
powerful that it becomes a barrier to better challengers. The 
company, in short, creates an impregnable monopoly.

The textbook example here has long been the qwerty keyboard. Its 
critics argue that it is less efficient than other key arrangements. 
Their position is that it has dominated for a century merely because 
one of the first manufacturers of the manual typewriter, E. 
Remington, adopted it early on, ensuring that it would become the 
standard. Path dependence emphasises, sometimes close to exclusively, 
the competitor as victim. Consumers are part of path dependence 
theory too - but only indirectly; they lose because the competitor 
does.

Bunkum, say two professors of economics, Stan J. Liebowitz of the 
University of Texas at Dallas and Stephen E. Margolis of North 
Carolina State.* Markets are meritocracies where good products win, 
be they mouse traps or operating systems. An item's success is due 
more to its quality than to any industrial predation.

Start with the qwerty keyboard. The professors argue that qwerty was 
hardly the competition-free gladiator that received wisdom makes out. 
It turns out that there were 51 rivals to Remington's qwerty at the 
outset. Remington's qwerty prevailed not because of market share 
alone but also because qwerty typists won at much-publicised typing 
contests.

Then there is the showcase argument against qwerty: DSK, a keyboard 
arrangement patented in 1936 by ergonomics expert August Dvorak. 
Dvorak tested DSK in Chicago schools and found data indicating its 
superiority. In the second world war, DSK was pitted against qwerty 
at the US Navy. Recruits who had once performed at a measly 32 words 
a minute speeded up to a masterly 56. Yet the old qwerty standard 
still prevailed.

Messrs Liebowitz and Margolis have unearthed evidence to show that 
DSK's superiority is something of a fable. For one thing, as it turns 
out, the co-author of the landmark Navy study was Dvorak himself. And 
later studies failed to replicate the pro-Dvorak evidence.

Another supposed paradigm of path dependence is the famous Beta-VHS 
war. Sony's Beta, the argument runs, was a good product. But through 
sheer market aggression, RCA, the US distributors of VHS, managed to 
make VHS the US standard and so obtained an enduring monopoly.

But this, the professors note, is an incomplete account. While the 
technology of the two products was identical, Sony took a fateful 
step in crafting its cassettes. It believed portability would be the 
most attractive feature for the cassette. It made its product smaller 
- but with a playing time of only one hour, in contrast to VHS, which 
could handle full-length films. Filmgoers, as it turned out, became 
big video customers. VHS won.

In the Microsoft case, the company's advantage is Windows' 
superiority and not Microsoft's scheming. Messrs Liebowitz and 
Margolis criticise Judge Jackson's view that Microsoft did social 
damage by bundling its browser, Internet Explorer, in the Windows 
package. This may have hurt Netscape, a competitor, as the latter 
loudly claimed. But there is little evidence that it hurt the 
consumer, at least not in the long run.

The authors offer a telling example from an older industry giant, car 
manufacture. In the old days, US carmakers sold vehicles without the 
rustproofing necessary in bitter climates. Cautious buyers then took 
their new purchases to rustproofing specialists for treatment. Later, 
carmakers incorporated rustproofing into their own product.

This may have hurt America's big rustproofing company, Ziebart. It 
even disrupted car owner habits temporarily. But car owners in the 
long run were not unhappy to receive a road-ready product. Or, as the 
authors put it, "a rule that compels a look at consumer perception as 
though frozen in time will be harmful".

Given the failings of path dependence, why its prevalence as a way of 
looking at the world? Messrs Margolis and Liebowitz argue that path 
dependence survives because it is an argument that suits some of the 
biggest players in the global antitrust drama: competitors. Jack 
Welch of General Electric complained last week in a different context 
(the European Commission's review of GE's plan to merge with 
Honeywell), of regulators being more concerned with competitors than 
consumers.

But while competitors have much to lose in battles against strong 
companies, it is not necessarily true that their defeat is also the 
consumer's. That is a valuable warning at a time when vigorous 
antitrust action has become the norm.

* Winners, Losers and Microsoft. J. Liebowitz and Stephen E. 
Margolis. The Independent Institute



**************************************************************************
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From holovacs at 1st.net  Tue Mar  6 12:43:48 2001
From: holovacs at 1st.net (JayHolovacs)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:43:48 -0500
Subject: Trampling on the theory of path dependence
References: <v04220800b6caf6f916d8@[198.4.94.177]>
Message-ID: <00e701c0a67e$26187100$1501a8c0@ang394>


While I find it difficult to discount the examples of path dependence so
glibly, this begs the question.

Even if path dependence occurs, there is no reason why the government (or
any other body) is in a significantly better position to pick the winners
and losers than the market is. When a standard evolves, it is useful that
the government keep one party from locking out others from access to the
standard, but not determining what the standard should be.

jay





From dr_wu_tang at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 08:09:24 2001
From: dr_wu_tang at hotmail.com (your nightmare)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 16:09:24 -0000
Subject: i want to build a bomb
Message-ID: <F110acH0xxDEA2VqFnW00000c59@hotmail.com>


hello i want to know how to build a bomb can you send back to me

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From djb at gci.net  Tue Mar  6 17:11:24 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:11:24 -0900
Subject: arrgh
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010306172448.5925J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <003801c0a6a3$872b0f00$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


> On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>
> > BTW - what is the actual law regarding discussing the requested topic (
> > and related topics ) over various communications media?
>
> If you're in the US they are completely and utterly legal.

But beware:  In the US we no longer have the rule of law.  It is now the
norm for prosecutors to charge politically incorrect defendants under novel
interpretations of old crimes.  Thus, for example, if someone on Cypherpunks
were to respond to one of these requests with detailed step-by-step
instructions for constructing a simple pipe bomb, that person should not be
surprised to be facing conspiracy or accessory charges in the event the
instructions were followed and the bomb constructed.  Despite lacking the
criminal intent or criminal "meeting of minds" required to support such
charges, a guilty verdict would be unsurprising.  No it's not fair, no it's
not justice, but there it is.

=======================================================
The Law Office of Daniel J. Boone
326 Fourth Avenue, Suite B
Juneau, Alaska  99801
(907) 723-9902
djb at gci.net
=======================================================
"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe when the
legislature is in session."  -- Judge Gideon Tucker
=======================================================




From stockcircuit at email-it.com  Tue Mar  6 17:12:25 2001
From: stockcircuit at email-it.com (stockcircuit at email-it.com)
Date: Tue Mar  6 17:12:25 2001
Subject: BREAKING NEWS!!!!
Message-ID: <200103062317.RAA80920@email-it.com>

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From stockcircuit at email-it.com  Tue Mar  6 17:12:25 2001
From: stockcircuit at email-it.com (stockcircuit at email-it.com)
Date: Tue Mar  6 17:12:25 2001
Subject: BREAKING NEWS!!!!
Message-ID: <200103062317.RAA80827@email-it.com>

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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 15:22:20 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:22:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Why Not debate "network externality"-path dependence?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010306075124.02b8d108@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010306172155.5925I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



What the hell does 'science' care about 'expert', now 'politics' is
another game entirely.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, James A. Donald wrote:

>      --
> At 09:23 PM 3/4/2001 -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>  > David,
>  >
>  >	You still don't get it. 'Read my book' is not a valid move in
>  >	a debate. If you were to stand up in front of the Oxford
>  >	Union and say 'my book proves the case entirely' then sat
>  >	down with no further elaboration you lose the debate.
> 
> This depends on the relative status of the debaters.  Your status as an 
> expert is perhaps less than you perceive it to be.
> 
>      --digsig
>           James A. Donald
>       6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
>       7nyEypwoXGtjljpB281LxgekQkbzCtLPiWYid99E
>       4L9TA3M8sE2epY4cVpAqzGwPC9S1AKAsQ7SuF2+nq
> 




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 15:25:59 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:25:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: arrgh
In-Reply-To: <3AA53D34.FA1E5518@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010306172448.5925J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> BTW - what is the actual law regarding discussing the requested topic (
> and related topics ) over various communications media?

If you're in the US they are completely and utterly legal.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Mar  6 18:09:24 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:09:24 -0800
Subject: New Scientist: Supersonic under watrer travel may become a
  reality
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010306180818.03130540@pop3.lvcm.com>




http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_224813.html




From mohdk200 at emirates.net.ae  Tue Mar  6 07:46:17 2001
From: mohdk200 at emirates.net.ae (mohd Al Mehrzi)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:46:17 +0400
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c0a654$95f810e0$3ff82ad5@v7p7i8>

i whant the general chem lab safety in org 
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 17:50:50 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:50:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: arrgh
In-Reply-To: <003801c0a6a3$872b0f00$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010306193927.5925L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Somehow I doubt telling somebody to stuff gun powder into a pipe, and
carefully wipe the ends this would be interpreted as any sort of aid in
and of itself.

Hell, Dover prints a book called "Chemical Magic" for $5 that'll provide
all you need to get started.

Not to mention that if one wanted they can mosey on down to the local
bookstore and order "Bombs and Bombings: A Handbook to Detection,
Disposal, and Investigation for Police and Fire Depts. (2nd Ed)" by Thomas
G. Brodie (ISBN 0-398-06551-9 (hrdbk), 0-398-06552-7 (ppbk)) you could
have the fine co-defendent of the FBI to stand trial right beside you (it 
was used as the training manual at one time).

Or you could just go down to your local movie outlet and buy "Fight Club"
where they describe how to make Nitro and Dynamite from basic soap. Then
you could have the appropriate movie studio, producer, and (hell, go for
broke) Brad Pitt to stand right along side of yourself.

When the IRS came in and asked me about the instructions I sent to the
list the issue was had I ever actually discussed it with CJ (off the
list) as he was carrying a copy of my posting when he was arrested (or so 
I and my lawyer was told). Since that never happened there wasn't shit
that could be done about it.

My suggestion, use a lawyer with more savy than Mr. Boone.

On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Daniel J. Boone wrote:

> But beware:  In the US we no longer have the rule of law.  It is now the
> norm for prosecutors to charge politically incorrect defendants under novel
> interpretations of old crimes.  Thus, for example, if someone on Cypherpunks
> were to respond to one of these requests with detailed step-by-step
> instructions for constructing a simple pipe bomb, that person should not be
> surprised to be facing conspiracy or accessory charges in the event the
> instructions were followed and the bomb constructed.  Despite lacking the
> criminal intent or criminal "meeting of minds" required to support such
> charges, a guilty verdict would be unsurprising.  No it's not fair, no it's
> not justice, but there it is.
> 
> =======================================================
> The Law Office of Daniel J. Boone
> 326 Fourth Avenue, Suite B
> Juneau, Alaska  99801
> (907) 723-9902
> djb at gci.net
> =======================================================
> "No man's life, liberty, or property is safe when the
> legislature is in session."  -- Judge Gideon Tucker
> =======================================================
> 

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 17:54:45 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:54:45 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Friends of suspect won't be coming back to school - March 6, 2001
Message-ID: <3AA594E5.FD6C393F@ssz.com>


Here's the real crime, punish the people he knew for his acts. That way
instead of one poor mistreated soul they now have 4...

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/03/06/school.shooting.06/index.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From turing at eskimo.com  Tue Mar  6 20:19:04 2001
From: turing at eskimo.com (Computer Cryptology)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:19:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fw: Garbled passthru mix key (Mixmaster ate my messages!!)
In-Reply-To: <005601c0a6b6$77436ca0$e901a8c0@cgomesw2k>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1010306200332.12123A-100000@eskimo.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 18:37:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:37:48 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Canada Considers Cellphone Jammers
Message-ID: <3AA59EFC.194CFAFC@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/07/0042225.shtml

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 18:40:20 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:40:20 -0600
Subject: Woman Indicted In Debate Tape Case
Message-ID: <3AA59F94.E78E6074@ssz.com>


http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=261188&nav=0s3c
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From njohnson at interl.net  Tue Mar  6 19:59:49 2001
From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:59:49 -0600
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103051023220.32037-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <006701c0a6bb$0f2ee2c0$dc65a13f@nandts>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Dillinger" <bear at sonic.net>
To: "Phillip H. Zakas" <pzakas at toucancapital.com>
Cc: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:24 PM
Subject: CDR: RE: American Bar Association - 1 click patents

>
> I wonder if it would be worth filing a 'blocking patent' on your own
> genome and all its applications, just to prevent some other bozo from
> patenting it.
>
> Ray
>

I don't recall the reference, but I believe a woman in Britain did just
that.

Neil M. Johnson
njohnson at interl.net
http://www.interl.net/~njohnson
PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7  CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC






From gomes at navigo.com  Tue Mar  6 19:26:25 2001
From: gomes at navigo.com (Carlos Macedo Gomes)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:26:25 -0500
Subject: Fw: Garbled passthru mix key (Mixmaster ate my messages!!)
Message-ID: <005601c0a6b6$77436ca0$e901a8c0@cgomesw2k>


The problem w/ the mix chains is being sparesly discussed on the
remailer-operator list (see enclosed email below).

No ETR as of 2001/03/06 for down chain:
http://www.publius.net/mixmaster-list.html

--
gomes at navigo.com
Carlos Macedo Gomes
_sic itur ad astra_
1;

----- Original Message -----
From: "Computer Cryptology" <turing at eskimo.com>
To: "cmeclax po'u le cmevi'u ke'umri" <cmeclax at ixazon.dynip.com>
Cc: "Remailer Operators Mailing List" <remailer-operators at anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: Garbled passthru mix key


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, cmeclax po'u le cmevi'u ke'umri wrote:
> > de'i Tue, 06 Mar 2001 la cmeclax po'u le cmevi'u ke'umri cusku di'e
>
> > > Turing and I have been doing some tests and have found that when
> > > passthru sends his key through lucifuge, austria, and
> > > perhaps cyggy or randseed, the key is
> > Randseed is the culprit, though cyggy should be aware that his key
> > may suffer the same fate.
>
> To summarize, the key from passthru2 passes without problem through
> afpress, dizum, farout, frog2, green, gretchen, lefarris, lsd,
> shinn, steeleye, winter, and xganon.  It has the middle missing when
> it passes through austria, lucifuge, and randseed.
>
> I'm attaching at the bottom the key as lucifuge delivers it.  The
> "[...]" is *not* my edit, but the problem.
>
> In June (on or around the 25th) of last year Peter posted this
> problem to APAS. At the time, though, dizum was modifying keys.
> Someone then posted a code change for Mix, that exempted Mixmaster
> keys from the binary detection the same way that PGP keys are
> exempt.  Does someone still have that code change?  Can austria,
> lucifuge, and randseed be patched, or should we warn middle
> remailers?  Those that don't send directly might want to avoid
> chaining Mix keys through these remailers otherwise.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
>
> iQEVAwUBOqV8VDzxF7DEd0ehAQHujQgAmBSzThaV66SB3/1z6wT0WUQezXiy/epq
> FhamGnIvlXg+IIaU3uV9KkkOxU4QxEdsoZicso5OOPZYYgqt3Lh377p4ztbDKYw1
> 5laLpZucbbKRyaqQ4NsEfopJx1f4aKhH0XtVgBRbENAD6+VuvjyQ5D1YTeTzQ4Iy
> YJJkjapIHbBZT+jztyCTKAj/BMObvrhri/mUc7BJXOFFrUhpgqzMwfjP5sDCBOpF
> cuXc/nI3DZegG5labuUj6sckyEZR+d/Y84SR9Rxw842on32jmcDka4ryFSGvJ/Tm
> jfh4kuJHY1IEfEBMtrZmw5WDp9kp8x+BmV10OXH9Ctsk5wkbZ8/1eA==
> =Zzj9
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> --
> Computer
> Cryptology
> RSA Fingerprint = 2476BB9C15F3612778C53A87F915CA1D
>
> >From nobody at harrisherd.com Tue Mar  6 15:57:50 2001
> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 02:18:58 -0500
> From: Anonymous <nobody at harrisherd.com>
> To: turing+passthru2=remailer-key=983854611 at eskimo.com
> Subject: Mixmaster key for Passthru's 2nd incarnation
>
> Here is the public key for Passthru's 2nd incarnation:
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> passthru2 mixer at immd1.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
c07b204924a69939651ec445fd5b2404 2.0.4b40 MC
>
> -----Begin Mix Key-----
> c07b204924a69939651ec445fd5b2404
> 258
> AATAD7wE2XqELmZ7SHVtuPQjDOjVjhIrXpL5j5Gs
> 7xEi6GXvCOS4vWyzmmZiTQjIimpBv4+PeyAAk6bm
> pBRHqSyXzf4SkZAzqxpqOmBn9nTC8ML3wmFuMsZU
> [...]
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAB
> -----End Mix Key-----
>
>
>
>




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 22:01:31 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:01:31 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Data Mining And The CIA
Message-ID: <3AA5CEBB.7A23AE6B@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/07/0322245.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From vh1_newsletters at vh1.com  Tue Mar  6 21:25:34 2001
From: vh1_newsletters at vh1.com (VH1.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:25:34 -0500
Subject: VH1 Divas Live Sweepstakes
Message-ID: <200103070523.f275N1g10757@mail1.lga2.mtvn.com>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar  6 23:05:52 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:05:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Austin Physical Meet: Tue. Mar. 13
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010307010355.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Time:                Mar. 13, 2001
                     Second Tuesday of each month 
                     7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later)

Location:            Central Market HEB Cafe
                     38th and N. Lamar
                     Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables.
                     If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the 
                     outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside
                     the buidling proper.

Identification:      Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography"
                     book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick.

Contact Info:        http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#austincpunks


    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net  Tue Mar  6 18:13:31 2001
From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel)
Date: 7 Mar 2001 02:13:31 -0000
Subject: Nimble Nymph?
Message-ID: <20010307021331.21337.qmail@nym.alias.net>

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From mail-in at iris.ocn.ne.jp  Tue Mar  6 11:46:45 2001
From: mail-in at iris.ocn.ne.jp (Mail-In)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 04:46:45 +0900 (JST)
Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCIVpDbUxcJTUlJCVIJE4kNDBGRmIhWxsoQg==?=
Message-ID: <200103061946.EAA13538@iris.ocn.ne.jp>


★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★ 2001.3.7 ★★
マイラインのお申し込みは当社へお申し込みください
-----------------------------------------------------------
本日はおくつろぎサイトのご案内です
http://www.ni.bekkoame.ne.jp/bc1548/index.html
-----------------------------------------------------------
情報提供企業からのご依頼により、このメール配信をしております。
受信メールのカテゴリー変更・アドレス変更・削除希望の方は、
「返信扱い」でお知らせください。

メイルイン
mailin at h3.dion.ne.jp




From bf at farc.co  Wed Mar  7 06:39:13 2001
From: bf at farc.co (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 06:39:13 -0800
Subject: EU confirms no 1st Amendment there...
Message-ID: <3AA64811.5793E2AA@farc.co>



                              THE European Court of Justice ruled
yesterday that the
                              European Union can lawfully suppress
political
                              criticism of its institutions and of
leading figures,
                              sweeping aside English Common Law and 50
years of
                              European precedents on civil liberties.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=004500667862225&rtmo=VkkxFu1x&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/01/3/7/weuc07.html




From bf at farc.co  Wed Mar  7 06:59:15 2001
From: bf at farc.co (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 06:59:15 -0800
Subject: expensive tradecraft, to catch a spook
Message-ID: <3AA64CC3.A6DF1F8C@farc.co>


03/06/2001 - Updated 10:32 PM ET
              FBI bought nearby house to spy on Hanssen

              By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY

              WASHINGTON — The FBI secretly bought a house
              near the suburban home of Robert Hanssen just nine
              days after investigators began surveillance of the veteran

              counterintelligence agent now charged with spying for
              Moscow, a senior U.S. official said Tuesday. The
              Vienna, Va., home, just down the block from Hanssen's,
              was purchased under the name of a single woman, Ann
              Manning, who paid $362,500 in cash, according to local
              property records and the realtor who represented the
              sellers. Attempts to reach Manning were unsuccessful.
              The transaction, first reported on "Dateline NBC," was
              made final on Dec. 21.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washdc/2001-03-06-spyhome.htm#more




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 05:20:56 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:20:56 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Descrambling CSS w/ 7 Lines Of Perl A DMCA Violation?
Message-ID: <3AA635B8.4DBA49C5@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/03/06/1954213.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 05:26:45 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:26:45 -0600
Subject: The Register - MS lies again...
Message-ID: <3AA63715.1128A85F@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/17398.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 05:30:22 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:30:22 -0600
Subject: Euro-court outlaws criticism of EU
Message-ID: <3AA637EE.CAD87BF9@ssz.com>


http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=004500667862225&rtmo=VkkxFu1x&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/01/3/7/weuc07.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tmjohnson31792 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 05:33:24 2001
From: tmjohnson31792 at yahoo.com (Mark Johnson)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 08:33:24 -0500
Subject: The Ultimate Internet Business!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103071340.FAA00899@cyberpass.net>


Dear Friend, 

You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending e-mail. Seem impossible? 
Read on for details; is there a catch; NO, there is no catch, just send your 
emails and be on your way to financial freedom. 

"AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TELEVISION" 

Thank you for your time and Interest. 
This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. 

Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program 
recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described 
below to see, if it really can make people money. 

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings 
proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation 
in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless 
and fun way to make some extra money at home. 

The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating 
that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes 
more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. 
You will understand once you experience it. 

"HERE IT IS BELOW" 

================================================ 
*** Print This Now For Future Reference *** 

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look 
at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! 
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. 

It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and 
best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you 
believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, 
THIS IS IT! 
Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. 
This Multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly 100% EVERY TIME. 
E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized 
method of advertising NOW! 

The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get 
your piece of this action !!! 

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. 
It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research 
and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods 
and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. 
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the 
U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, 
statistics show 45people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. 

You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump made an 
appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he 
lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump 
said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. 
The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned 
his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" 

With network marketing you have two sources of income. 

Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made 
by people you introduce to the business. 

Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. 
It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. 
In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. 

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, 
sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. 

My name is Jonathan Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the 
past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive 
job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred 
many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends and creditors over 
$35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem 
to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my 
family and struggling business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened 
in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change 
your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!! 

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's prior to receiving 
this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. 
All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They 
were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was 
too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. 
One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell 
me I'd have to write a book to make it! 

But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't 
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS 
FOR THAT !!! 
After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't 
believe my eyes. 

Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. 

I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into 
debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get 
my money back. 
But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about 
the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 
24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program 
was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT." 

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. 
The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send 
out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e-mail, the only 
expense is my time. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, 
but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money 
it cost me. 

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 
13, I had received 26orders 
for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 
2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" 
My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 
196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT 
#2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 
100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." 
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and 
relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more 
coming in every day. 
I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to 
read the attached program, 
IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try 
it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules 
of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll 
lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet 
your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you 
will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! 

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a 
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, 
follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. 

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or 
you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! 
Sincerely, 

Jonathan Rourke 

PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on 
a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! 

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: 

By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded 
that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an 
amateur. 

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. 
Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that 
were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured 
it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced 
the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you 
what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first 
hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.


The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested 
wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything 
to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying 
goes, 
"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." 
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or 
"get rich", inflation will see to that. 


You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the 
rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can 
make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. 

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor anyone 
else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over 
4 MILLION DOLLARS! 
I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I 
have several offices that make this and several other programs here and over 
seas. 

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report 
to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 
50,000...and your name will be on everyone of them! 
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will 
reach. 

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity 
to become financially independent, 
IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! 

************************************************************


"THINK ABOUT IT" 
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little 
time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. 
Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out 
the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still 
make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts 
you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! 

Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA 

************************************************************


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ 

INSTRUCTIONS: 

This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you 
could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days. 

Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a 
chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this 
is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by 
recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows 
you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for 
EVERY dollar sent. 
YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in 
personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. 

This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: 

This is what you MUST do: 

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't 
order them). 

* For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, 
YOUR E-MAIL AND ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem)and 
to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. 

MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! 

* When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports. You 
will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell 
them. 

* Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. Save 
them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's 
of people who will order them from you. 

2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each 
report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below 
in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. 
Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if 
you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it 
will not work. 

a. Look below for the listing of available 
reports. 

b. After you've ordered the four reports, take this Advertisement and remove 
the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle 
and is no doubt counting their $50,000! 

c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. 

d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. 

e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. 

f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. 

Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it 
to your computer. Make NO changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. 

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford 
$20). You obviously already have an Internet Connection and e-mail is FREE! 

To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 4 reports you 
purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes 
how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and 
much, much more. 

There are two primary methods of building your downline: 

METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL 

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll 
assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also 
assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list the response 
could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of 
programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 
2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 
10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out 
of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 
programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders 
for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. 
The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 $5 bills 
for you. CASH!!! Your total income in this example is 
$50 + $500 + $5,000+ $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! 

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL 
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT 
WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. 
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to 
participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet 
connection and e-mail is FREE !!! 

REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, tell you where to 
obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists. 

METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 

1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS 
of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see 
how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on 
your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get 
a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets 
ONLY 10 downline members. 

Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below: 

1st level-your 10 members with $5.........$50 
2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).......$500 
3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) $5,000 
4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000 

THIS TOTALS ---------------------------$55,550 

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 
people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! 
Most people get 100's of participants! 

THINK ABOUT IT! 

For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. 
THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee 
that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt 
because they can't advertise until they receive the report! 

------------------------------------------ 
AVAILABLE REPORTS 
------------------------------------------ 

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** 

Notes: 

* ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHEQUES NOT ACCEPTED 
* - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL 
- Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper 
(IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) 
- On one of those sheets of paper, include: 
(a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, 
(b) your e-mail address, and 
(c) your name & postal address (as return address in case the post office encounters 
problems). 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: 
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on
the Internet" 

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: 

T. Mark Johnson 
140 River Way 
Demorest, GA 30535
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail 
on the Internet" 

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: 

Rogan Witty
P O Box 2233
Port Aransas, TX 78373
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the
Internet" 

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: 

G C Wright
P O Box 293237
Sacramento, CA 95828
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power 
of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" 

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: 

Chris Beebe
4101 Brett St #L10
Corpus Christi, TX 78411
______________________________________________________ 

About 50,000 new people get online every month! 

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* 

* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions 
accurately. 

* Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders 
start coming in because: 

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. 

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. 

* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions 
exactly, your results WILL BE
SUCCESSFUL! 

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! 

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising 
or sending e-mails until you do. 
Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. 
If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because 
the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! 

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: 

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a 
DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another 
batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There 
is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! 

Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. 
Please answer one question..... 
DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? 
If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 

1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 

2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 

3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 

4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING 
TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 

5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $20 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 

6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 

7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER. 

******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* 

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, 
it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that 
it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with 
little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, 
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 

Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR 
************************************************************

My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant 
with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the 
program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole 
thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" 
it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in 
with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I 
told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!
Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received 
over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured 
and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." 
I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and 
it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM. 

Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL 
************************************************************

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, 
lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in 
a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined 
just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money 
required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with 
money still coming in. 

Charles Morris, Esq. 
************************************************************

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate 
in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment 
was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to 
at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size 
post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I 
had to start picking up my mail at the window. 
I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice 
thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply 
isn't a better investment with a faster return. 

Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA 
************************************************************

I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't 
have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, 
so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program, ..11 months passed then 
it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000 on the first try!! 

Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA 
***********************************************************

This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and 
will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The 
only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your 
sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good 
luck and happy spending! 

Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY 
************************************************************


ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! 

NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS 
_______________________________________________________ 
FOR YOUR INFORMATION.... 
If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning 
how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business 
Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to 
questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone 
and free seminars about business tax requirements.

Under Bill S1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot 
be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method 
of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is 
necessary












From tmjohnson31792 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 05:35:27 2001
From: tmjohnson31792 at yahoo.com (Mark Johnson)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 08:35:27 -0500
Subject: The Ultimate Internet Business!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103071339.FAA21706@toad.com>


Dear Friend, 

You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending e-mail. Seem impossible? 
Read on for details; is there a catch; NO, there is no catch, just send your 
emails and be on your way to financial freedom. 

"AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TELEVISION" 

Thank you for your time and Interest. 
This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. 

Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program 
recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described 
below to see, if it really can make people money. 

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings 
proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation 
in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless 
and fun way to make some extra money at home. 

The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating 
that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes 
more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. 
You will understand once you experience it. 

"HERE IT IS BELOW" 

================================================ 
*** Print This Now For Future Reference *** 

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look 
at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! 
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. 

It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and 
best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you 
believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, 
THIS IS IT! 
Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. 
This Multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly 100% EVERY TIME. 
E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized 
method of advertising NOW! 

The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get 
your piece of this action !!! 

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. 
It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research 
and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods 
and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. 
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the 
U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, 
statistics show 45people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. 

You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump made an 
appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he 
lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump 
said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. 
The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned 
his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" 

With network marketing you have two sources of income. 

Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made 
by people you introduce to the business. 

Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. 
It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. 
In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. 

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, 
sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. 

My name is Jonathan Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the 
past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive 
job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred 
many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends and creditors over 
$35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem 
to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my 
family and struggling business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened 
in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change 
your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!! 

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's prior to receiving 
this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. 
All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They 
were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was 
too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. 
One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell 
me I'd have to write a book to make it! 

But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't 
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS 
FOR THAT !!! 
After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't 
believe my eyes. 

Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. 

I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into 
debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get 
my money back. 
But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about 
the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 
24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program 
was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT." 

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. 
The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send 
out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e-mail, the only 
expense is my time. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, 
but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money 
it cost me. 

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 
13, I had received 26orders 
for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 
2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" 
My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 
196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT 
#2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 
100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." 
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and 
relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more 
coming in every day. 
I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to 
read the attached program, 
IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try 
it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules 
of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll 
lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet 
your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you 
will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! 

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a 
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, 
follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. 

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or 
you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! 
Sincerely, 

Jonathan Rourke 

PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on 
a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! 

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: 

By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded 
that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an 
amateur. 

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. 
Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that 
were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured 
it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced 
the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you 
what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first 
hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.


The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested 
wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything 
to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying 
goes, 
"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." 
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or 
"get rich", inflation will see to that. 


You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the 
rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can 
make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. 

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor anyone 
else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over 
4 MILLION DOLLARS! 
I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I 
have several offices that make this and several other programs here and over 
seas. 

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report 
to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 
50,000...and your name will be on everyone of them! 
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will 
reach. 

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity 
to become financially independent, 
IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! 

************************************************************


"THINK ABOUT IT" 
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little 
time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. 
Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out 
the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still 
make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts 
you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! 

Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA 

************************************************************


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ 

INSTRUCTIONS: 

This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you 
could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days. 

Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a 
chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this 
is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by 
recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows 
you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for 
EVERY dollar sent. 
YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in 
personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. 

This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: 

This is what you MUST do: 

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't 
order them). 

* For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, 
YOUR E-MAIL AND ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem)and 
to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. 

MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! 

* When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports. You 
will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell 
them. 

* Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. Save 
them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's 
of people who will order them from you. 

2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each 
report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below 
in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. 
Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if 
you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it 
will not work. 

a. Look below for the listing of available 
reports. 

b. After you've ordered the four reports, take this Advertisement and remove 
the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle 
and is no doubt counting their $50,000! 

c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. 

d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. 

e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. 

f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. 

Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it 
to your computer. Make NO changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. 

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford 
$20). You obviously already have an Internet Connection and e-mail is FREE! 

To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 4 reports you 
purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes 
how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and 
much, much more. 

There are two primary methods of building your downline: 

METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL 

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll 
assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also 
assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list the response 
could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of 
programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 
2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 
10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out 
of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 
programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders 
for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. 
The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 $5 bills 
for you. CASH!!! Your total income in this example is 
$50 + $500 + $5,000+ $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! 

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL 
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT 
WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. 
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to 
participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet 
connection and e-mail is FREE !!! 

REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, tell you where to 
obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists. 

METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 

1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS 
of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see 
how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on 
your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get 
a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets 
ONLY 10 downline members. 

Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below: 

1st level-your 10 members with $5.........$50 
2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).......$500 
3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) $5,000 
4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000 

THIS TOTALS ---------------------------$55,550 

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 
people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! 
Most people get 100's of participants! 

THINK ABOUT IT! 

For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. 
THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee 
that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt 
because they can't advertise until they receive the report! 

------------------------------------------ 
AVAILABLE REPORTS 
------------------------------------------ 

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** 

Notes: 

* ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHEQUES NOT ACCEPTED 
* - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL 
- Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper 
(IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) 
- On one of those sheets of paper, include: 
(a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, 
(b) your e-mail address, and 
(c) your name & postal address (as return address in case the post office encounters 
problems). 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: 
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on
the Internet" 

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: 

T. Mark Johnson 
140 River Way 
Demorest, GA 30535
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail 
on the Internet" 

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: 

Rogan Witty
P O Box 2233
Port Aransas, TX 78373
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the
Internet" 

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: 

G C Wright
P O Box 293237
Sacramento, CA 95828
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power 
of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" 

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: 

Chris Beebe
4101 Brett St #L10
Corpus Christi, TX 78411
______________________________________________________ 

About 50,000 new people get online every month! 

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* 

* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions 
accurately. 

* Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders 
start coming in because: 

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. 

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. 

* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions 
exactly, your results WILL BE
SUCCESSFUL! 

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! 

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising 
or sending e-mails until you do. 
Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. 
If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because 
the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! 

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: 

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a 
DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another 
batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There 
is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! 

Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. 
Please answer one question..... 
DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? 
If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 

1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 

2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 

3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 

4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING 
TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 

5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $20 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 

6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 

7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER. 

******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* 

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, 
it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that 
it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with 
little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, 
and you'll be on your way to financial security. 

Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR 
************************************************************

My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant 
with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the 
program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole 
thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" 
it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in 
with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I 
told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!
Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received 
over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured 
and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." 
I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and 
it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM. 

Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL 
************************************************************

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, 
lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in 
a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined 
just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money 
required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with 
money still coming in. 

Charles Morris, Esq. 
************************************************************

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate 
in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment 
was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to 
at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size 
post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I 
had to start picking up my mail at the window. 
I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice 
thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply 
isn't a better investment with a faster return. 

Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA 
************************************************************

I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't 
have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, 
so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program, ..11 months passed then 
it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000 on the first try!! 

Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA 
***********************************************************

This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and 
will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The 
only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your 
sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good 
luck and happy spending! 

Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY 
************************************************************


ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! 

NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS 
_______________________________________________________ 
FOR YOUR INFORMATION.... 
If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning 
how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business 
Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to 
questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone 
and free seminars about business tax requirements.

Under Bill S1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot 
be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method 
of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is 
necessary












From djb at gci.net  Wed Mar  7 10:12:05 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:12:05 -0900
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ test
References: <1595e0780cbd7342c4de347e6b482f51@harrisherd.com>
Message-ID: <003001c0a732$1e2330c0$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


> Ms. Farr is unquestionably an AI.  Please do not feed the Markov chains.

Ooh, but the cute widdle things look so HUNGRY.....




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Mar  7 06:37:02 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:37:02 -0500
Subject: Bell's 3 Nutcases
Message-ID: <200103071448.JAA30364@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>


Jim Bell has made a motion to have three of the USA's
witnesses undergo psychological evaluation. No names
given in the case docket. Since Jim has been repeatedly 
moving to have his federal defender, AUSA London, and 
Judge Tanner recused, it may be that those are the three 
needing data minded.

Or the three could be composed of anyone has ever posted 
to cypherpunks or received mail from it or wrote about it or 
read about it or thought about making a snuff film of it.






From tapasu2000 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 10:35:12 2001
From: tapasu2000 at yahoo.com (tapasu kanik)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:35:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Extra Money
Message-ID: <20010307183512.25360.qmail@web11408.mail.yahoo.com>


Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
from your home for an
investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
======================================================

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following.
This is the letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the
popularity of this
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program
recently devoted an
entire show to the investigation of this program
described below, to see if
it really can make people money.\\~ The show also
investigated whether or not
the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there are
''absolutely NO Laws
prohibiting the participation in the program and if
people can -follow the
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega
bucks with only $25
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF
POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS 
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER
THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this
profitable opportunity. I was
approached many times before but each time I passed on
it. I am so glad I
finally joined just to see what one could expect in
return for the minimal
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I
received total $ 610,470.00
in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam
Hedland, Fort Lee, New
Jersey. 

=======================================================
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been
around for a long
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I
received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed
the simple
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money
started to come in.
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months
after that I made a
total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by
re-entering the
program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing
it again. The key to
success in this program is to follow the simple steps
and NOT change 
anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 

===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ========

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to
5 months easily and
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT
AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL
DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====


For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF
THE REPORT YOU ARE 
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose
name appears ON THAT 
LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS
IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

=== When you place your order, make sure you order
each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them
on your computer and
resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each
of the 5 reports from
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your
computer so they will be
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people
who will order them from
you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it
on your disk in case
something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who
are listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way
other than what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will
loose out on majority 
of your profits. Once you understand the way this
works, you will also see 
how it does
not work if you change it. Remember, this method has
been tested, and if you
alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put
their friends/relatives 
names on 
all five thinking they could get all the money. But it
does not work this 
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and
then nothing happened. So 
Do Not try to change anything other than what is
instructed. Because if you 
do, it will not work 
for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this
advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5.
This person
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting
their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO
REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO
REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO
REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO
REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1
Position. PLEASE 
MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

=============================================================

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list
of names, and save it on 
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose
any data. To assist you 
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5
reports you purchase will 
provide you with invaluable marketing information
which includes how to send 
bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free
classified ads and much 
more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture
going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see
how it goes, and we 
will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000
e-mails each. Let's also 
assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response
(the response could be 
much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also
many people will send out 
hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000
each). Continuing with
this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for
report # 1. Those 10 people 
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total
of 50,000. Out of 
those 
50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders.
That's=100 people responded 
and ordered Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a
total of 500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #
3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a
total of 5 million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000
orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a
total of 50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is
100,000 orders for Report
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00
(half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 +
2..... $500 + 3.....
$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........
Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE
OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE 
RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL
STILL MAKE A LOT OF 
MONEY ! 

=============================================================

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU 
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From lvild at usa.net  Wed Mar  7 10:51:30 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 7 Mar 2001 10:51:30 PST
Subject: [Re: Re: Cypherpunks IQ test]
Message-ID: <20010307185131.6521.qmail@nwcst330.netaddress.usa.net>


What is an AI?



"Daniel J. Boone" <djb at gci.net> wrote:
> 
> > Ms. Farr is unquestionably an AI.  Please do not feed the Markov chains.
> 
> Ooh, but the cute widdle things look so HUNGRY.....


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From nobody at harrisherd.com  Wed Mar  7 08:09:34 2001
From: nobody at harrisherd.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:09:34 -0500
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ test
Message-ID: <1595e0780cbd7342c4de347e6b482f51@harrisherd.com>


> From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:48:31 -0600
> Subject: CDR:Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown & Packet,
>  et. al.
> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000 at bolt.sonic.net>
> Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr at pobox.com>
> 
> CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> 
> QUESTION #1.
> 
> You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> 
> 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> 
> (a) you bite the apple.
> (b) you take the woman.
> (c) you run away.
> (d) a and b, but not c.
> (e) b and c only.
> (f) all of the above.
> (g) none of the above.
> 
> 2. Please justify your answer:
> 

Ms. Farr is unquestionably an AI.  Please do not feed the Markov chains.

> 
> ___________________________________________________________________.
> 
> 
> Just curious....
> 
> 	-Aimee




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Mar  7 09:31:59 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 11:31:59 -0600
Subject: Clay Shirky's Internet Writings
Message-ID: <3AA6708F.447C3E0E@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.shirky.com/
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Mar  7 09:45:11 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:45:11 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ test
In-Reply-To: <1595e0780cbd7342c4de347e6b482f51@harrisherd.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPEEGHCFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Dear Friend , Especially for you - this red-hot intelligence 
. If you no longer wish to receive our publications 
simply reply with a Subject: of "REMOVE" and you will 
immediately be removed from our mailing list . This 
mail is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 1622 
; Title 1 ; Section 307 ! This is not a get rich scheme 
! Why work for somebody else when you can become rich 
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been submitted to us indicating your interest in our 
letter . If you no longer wish to receive our publications 
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immediately be removed from our database . This mail 
is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 2516 ; 
Title 6 ; Section 303 . This is different than anything 
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This offer is 100% legal . We BESEECH you - act now 
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Dear Friend ; Your email address has been submitted 
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friend will be rich too . Thanks . 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Anonymous
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 10:10 AM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks IQ test
> 
> 
> > From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
> > Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:48:31 -0600
> > Subject: CDR:Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, 
> Brown & Packet,
> >  et. al.
> > In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103041359140.31597-100000 at bolt.sonic.net>
> > Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENOCEAA.aimee.farr at pobox.com>
> > 
> > CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> > 
> > QUESTION #1.
> > 
> > You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> > magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> > 
> > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> > 
> > (a) you bite the apple.
> > (b) you take the woman.
> > (c) you run away.
> > (d) a and b, but not c.
> > (e) b and c only.
> > (f) all of the above.
> > (g) none of the above.
> > 
> > 2. Please justify your answer:
> > 
> 
> Ms. Farr is unquestionably an AI.  Please do not feed the Markov chains.
> 
> > 
> > ___________________________________________________________________.
> > 
> > 
> > Just curious....
> > 
> > 	-Aimee




From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Mar  7 11:45:58 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:45:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bell's 3 Nutcases
In-Reply-To: <200103071448.JAA30364@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103071145260.25640-100000@clueserver.org>


On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, John Young wrote:

> Jim Bell has made a motion to have three of the USA's
> witnesses undergo psychological evaluation. No names
> given in the case docket. Since Jim has been repeatedly 
> moving to have his federal defender, AUSA London, and 
> Judge Tanner recused, it may be that those are the three 
> needing data minded.

Or maybe Jeff Gordon.

> Or the three could be composed of anyone has ever posted 
> to cypherpunks or received mail from it or wrote about it or 
> read about it or thought about making a snuff film of it.

Snuff makes me sneeze.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From christof at ece.WPI.EDU  Wed Mar  7 10:10:03 2001
From: christof at ece.WPI.EDU (Christof Paar)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:10:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Crypto Short Course
Message-ID: <mailman.373.1576007502.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

I am offering again a 4 day short course in applied crypto. A brief
outline is below. For more info about the course contents and
registration, please see our web site at

 http://www.ece.wpi.edu/Research/crypt/courses/short_course.html

Regards,

Christof

! WORKSHOP ON CRYPTOGRAPHIC HARDWARE AND EMBEDDED SYSTEMS (CHES 2001) !
!                  Paris, France, May 13-16, 2001                     !
!                       www.chesworkshop.org                          !

***********************************************************************
                 Christof Paar,  Assistant Professor
          Cryptography and Information Security (CRIS) Group
      ECE Dept., WPI, 100 Institute Rd., Worcester, MA 01609, USA
fon:(508) 831 5061  email: christof at ece.wpi.edu
fax:(508) 831 5491  www: http://www.ece.wpi.edu/People/faculty/cxp.html
***********************************************************************


          Worcester Polytechnic Institute
                 4-Day Short Course
                April  16,17 & 26,27
               WPI Southborough Campus

        APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY AND DATA SECURITY

          Seminar Leader: Dr. Christof Paar


      COMPLETE COURSE INFORMATION AND REGISTRATION:
 www.ece.wpi.edu/Research/crypt/courses/short_course.html


                  COURSE OUTLINE

Day 1, AM - Introduction to Cryptography and Data Security

Overview. Private-Key Cryptosystems. Cryptanalysis.


Day 1, PM - Stream Ciphers

Random Number Generators. Synchronous Stream Ciphers and LFSRs.  Attacks.
One Time Pad. Unconditional and Computational Security.


Day 2, AM - Block Ciphers: DES and AES

DES Functionality and History; Implementation: Hardware and Software;
Attacks and Security Estimations. AES: Functionality and History; Hardware
and Software Implementations. Other block ciphers. Key length and security.


Day 2, PM - Modes and Variants of Block Ciphers

Operation modes of block ciphers. Multiple encryption. Key whitening.


Day 3, AM - Public-key Cryptography

Principle. Some Number Theory. Overview of Practical
Schemes. Public-Key standards (ANSI, IEEE).


Day 3, PM - Public-key Algorithms

RSA Cryptosystem: Functionality, implementational aspects, recent attacks
and security estimations. Diffie-Hellman key exchange. Elliptic curve
cryptosystems: principle, practical and security aspects.


Day 4, AM - Digital Signatures and Protocols

Digital Signatures. Authentication Codes (MACs). Hash Functions. Protocols
for Privacy, Authentication, Integrity, Non-Repudiation.
Challenge-and-response protocols.


Day 4, PM - Key Distribution and Case Study

Key Distribution: Private-key approaches, public-Key approaches.
Certificates. Key Derivation. Case Study: Secure Socket Layer Protocol.



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at reservoir.com" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From drake at cais.com  Wed Mar  7 10:42:14 2001
From: drake at cais.com (Drake)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 13:42:14 -0500
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs of Dillinger, Brown 
 &Packet, et.	 al.
References: <310853a85c68a0910d710a81a075d973@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <3AA68106.F6CEE255@cais.com>


1. You exchange and sign keys first, in preparation for exchange
of precious bodily fluids, in case authentication may be required
at some future date.
2.  The woman gives you the apple in exchange for sex, to improve 
the gene pool.
 
Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Aimee Farr wrote:
> 
> > QUESTION #1.
> 
> > You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> > magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> 
> > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> 
> > (a) you bite the apple.
> > (b) you take the woman.
> . . .
> > (g) none of the above.
> 
> G.
> 
> > 2. Please justify your answer:
> 
> You bite the woman, then take the apple.




From 0lzm at dzwm7j.net  Wed Mar  7 14:24:28 2001
From: 0lzm at dzwm7j.net (0lzm at dzwm7j.net)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:24:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE LEADS
Message-ID: <200103072224.OAA00614@toad.com>



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From info at optinmail.cc  Wed Mar  7 14:50:51 2001
From: info at optinmail.cc (info at optinmail.cc)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:50:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Major Bank Credit Card Matching!
Message-ID: <200103072250.OAA02332@toad.com>

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From bounce-stocknight-373127 at lyris.stocknight.com  Wed Mar  7 15:11:46 2001
From: bounce-stocknight-373127 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:11:46 -0800
Subject: Stocknight- Edition
Message-ID: <LYRIS-373127-12-2001.03.07-15.27.30--cypherpunks#cyberpass.net@lyris.stocknight.com>


[Stocknight.com]                                                 [Image]
[Image]

  Issue 1                                                March 7, 2001

   Today's Issue                                              [Image]

   Despite the loud clamor of earnings warnings, stocks were up
   across the board today as investors and analysts wondered if a
   bottom had been reached. The Dow Jones industrial average closed
   up 138.38 to 10,729.60; the Nasdaq composite rose 19.47 to
   2,223.90 and the Standard & Poor's 500 ended up 8.09 to 1,261.89.

   It was a strange day for the markets as investors shrugged off bad
   news and bought in a manner eerliy similar to recent months where
   good news was  ignored and sold into. The Nasdaq is now up 5
   percent since last Friday, withstanding a number of large
   technology companies warning about poor earnings.

   Breaking News                                              [Image]

   We held the publishing of this newsletter until later than
   expected as we know that an enormous amount of our database are
   Yahoo users and investors and the stock, as most of you know, was
   halted around 10:00 a.m est. pending a company announcement.

   Just a few moments ago The Financial Times announced that Yahoo
   CEO Tim Koogle will step down and warn of lackluster quarterly
   earnings. Yahoo confirmed this report atfter the market's close,
   making for what will undoubtedly be an interesting Thursday
   morning for the stock. Today, the stock traded off $1.44 before it
   was halted.

   Conversely, Quintek (OTCBB: QTEK) announced 2nd Quarter financial
   results with a revenue increase of 57% and a profit increase of
   100%. Quintek also announced their client roster in the release
   which includes Imation,  TRW, Lockheed-Martin, U.S. Navy, Boeing,
   and a multitude of others also noted in the release.
   Click here to read the full release:
   http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010307/0520.html


   Disclaimer:
   StockNight.com is associated with Market Pathways Financial
   Relations Incorporated (MP).  The information, opinions and
   analysis contained herein are based on sources believed to be
   reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as
   to its accuracy, completeness or correctness.  This report is for
   information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for
   any investment decision.  As compensation for dissemination and
   posting of this information, Quintek will issue to MP 200,000
   shares of its restricted common stock.  MP will split the shares
   with Integrity Media (owner of StockNight.com) for its services
   related to the publishing and posting of this information.  This
   compensation constitutes a conflict of interest as to our ability
   to remain objective in our communication regarding the subject
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   Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934.    MP, StockNight.com
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   an investment advisor and this report is not investment advice.
   This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to
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   forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and
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   contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to
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   Sky” status in each trading state.  Information contained herein
   may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express
   written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations
   Incorporated.


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From bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com  Wed Mar  7 15:11:46 2001
From: bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:11:46 -0800
Subject: Stocknight- Edition
Message-ID: <LYRIS-163101-12-2001.03.07-15.27.30--cypherpunks#algebra.com@lyris.stocknight.com>


[Stocknight.com]                                                 [Image]
[Image]

  Issue 1                                                March 7, 2001

   Today's Issue                                              [Image]

   Despite the loud clamor of earnings warnings, stocks were up
   across the board today as investors and analysts wondered if a
   bottom had been reached. The Dow Jones industrial average closed
   up 138.38 to 10,729.60; the Nasdaq composite rose 19.47 to
   2,223.90 and the Standard & Poor's 500 ended up 8.09 to 1,261.89.

   It was a strange day for the markets as investors shrugged off bad
   news and bought in a manner eerliy similar to recent months where
   good news was  ignored and sold into. The Nasdaq is now up 5
   percent since last Friday, withstanding a number of large
   technology companies warning about poor earnings.

   Breaking News                                              [Image]

   We held the publishing of this newsletter until later than
   expected as we know that an enormous amount of our database are
   Yahoo users and investors and the stock, as most of you know, was
   halted around 10:00 a.m est. pending a company announcement.

   Just a few moments ago The Financial Times announced that Yahoo
   CEO Tim Koogle will step down and warn of lackluster quarterly
   earnings. Yahoo confirmed this report atfter the market's close,
   making for what will undoubtedly be an interesting Thursday
   morning for the stock. Today, the stock traded off $1.44 before it
   was halted.

   Conversely, Quintek (OTCBB: QTEK) announced 2nd Quarter financial
   results with a revenue increase of 57% and a profit increase of
   100%. Quintek also announced their client roster in the release
   which includes Imation,  TRW, Lockheed-Martin, U.S. Navy, Boeing,
   and a multitude of others also noted in the release.
   Click here to read the full release:
   http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010307/0520.html


   Disclaimer:
   StockNight.com is associated with Market Pathways Financial
   Relations Incorporated (MP).  The information, opinions and
   analysis contained herein are based on sources believed to be
   reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as
   to its accuracy, completeness or correctness.  This report is for
   information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for
   any investment decision.  As compensation for dissemination and
   posting of this information, Quintek will issue to MP 200,000
   shares of its restricted common stock.  MP will split the shares
   with Integrity Media (owner of StockNight.com) for its services
   related to the publishing and posting of this information.  This
   compensation constitutes a conflict of interest as to our ability
   to remain objective in our communication regarding the subject
   company.  Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by
   Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934.    MP, StockNight.com
   and Integrity Media and its owners, agents and employees are not
   an investment advisor and this report is not investment advice.
   This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to
   sell securities.  Information contained herein contains
   forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and
   uncertainties, which will affect the results.  The opinions
   contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to
   change without notice.  MP, Integrity Media and StockNight.com
   and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time
   may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned.
   It is the responsibility of the brokerage firm to verify “Blue
   Sky” status in each trading state.  Information contained herein
   may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express
   written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations
   Incorporated.


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From news at point2.com  Wed Mar  7 13:35:14 2001
From: news at point2.com (Point2 - News)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:35:14 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: New online tools and the latest heavy equipment news at Point2- Mar. 2001Newsletter
Message-ID: <6398984.984000914167.JavaMail.p2admin@clyde>

************************************
Point2 Internet Systems Newsletter
Volume 2
March 2001 
************************************ 


IN THIS ISSUE:
Point2 News : New implementations on the Point2 web site.
Wayne's World : "Stop the world. I want to get off!"
Marketing on the Web : "Traffic, Traffic and More Traffic"
Frank's Files : "Articles from Machinery Outlook- Dec. 2000 Issue"
Client Profile : "Duncan Brazier-Red Mountain Machinery"
Featured Article : How to Develop a Winning Sales Team
Recommended Links : From Equipment to Golf web sites
						      
  
  
NEWS FROM POINT2
Striving to better serve our users-the latest news and developments at Point2 Internet Systems 

Our latest project: 
New implementations on the Point2 web site
03/01/2001
Point2's philosophy has always been to create the very best tools to help dealers sell more equipment and help buyers find exactly what they are looking for.
Read about the new tools at: http://www.point2.com/newsletters/issue2/news.html


WAYNE'S WORLD
Wayne Huffman, Executive VP of Sales for Point2 offers weekly updates and reports relating to the heavy equipment industry and technology... 

Wayne's Hot Topic: 
Stop the world. I want to get off! 

Is this how you feel sometimes when changes in our business seem overwhelming? Bob Dylan wrote his famous song "The times, they are a-changin'" back in the sixties. And change has been taking place at a faster and faster pace ever since. 
For the complete article go to: http://www.point2.com/newsletters/issue2/wayne2.html


 
MARKETING ON THE WEB
Articles, tips and hints on how to successfully market your web site on the Internet. Topics include Search Engine 
optimization techniques, banner advertising, web design and much more... 

Point2's Featured Article: 
Traffic, Traffic And More Traffic 
12/14/2000 
InternetDay (http://www.internetday.com)
For the first time in history, small business can sell their products or services in the same market as Fortune 500 corporations. On the web, your business can look and function at a level similar to the big guys without breaking your bank.  

For the complete article go to: http://www.internetday.com/archives/121400.html


MANFREDI FILE

Regarded as the one of the industry's most authoritative sources for information within the heavy equipment industry, Point2 is proud to offer valuable insights and news staight from Frank Manfredi. Pulled directly from his monthly newsletter "Machinery Outlook", Mr. Manfredi focuses on the heavy equipment market and the businesses affected by this industry.

 
This week's articles 
Dec. 2000-Caterpillar acquiring new product line, Fluor forms new e-commmerce venture, a 2001 forecast and much more... 
Read the Manfredi File go to: http://www.point2.com/newsletters/issue2/frank2.html 



 
CLIENT PROFILE
In recognition of all the individuals or organizations who have committed themselves to heavy equipment industry, we feature highlights on various people that strive to better serve the industry. If you would like to nominate an individual or company for an upcoming feature, please provide a brief summary/description of the company to profile in our upcoming newsletters (JPG pictures accepted).


Our Featured Client/Company: 
Point2 would like to recognize Duncan Brazier, a team member of Red Mountain Machinery Co. as our featured client. 
 
For the complete article go to: http://www.point2.com/newsletters/issue2/client-profile2.html

If you would like to nominate a company or an individual, send us a message at news at point2.com

 

FEATURED ARTICLE
Articles straight from the headlines of major media and technology reports 

This Week's Featured Article: 
How to Develop a Winning Sales Team
By Gerhard Gschwandtner
Tom Hopkins offers nine success tips for the newly appointed sales manager.  

For the complete article go to: http://www.point2.com/newsletters/issue2/article2.html

 

RECOMMENDED LINKS
Recommended links ranging from the stock market to the local weather 

For the list of links go to: http://www.point2.com/newsletters/issue2/links2.html

This mail is never sent unsolicited. You have been sent the Point2 newsletter if you have recently subscribed, requested or posted information on Point2 Internet Systems web site. To unsubscribe from this newsletter, click here 
 
Subscribe/Unsubscribe

To unsubscribe from our newsletter visit  http://204.83.38.90/scripts/unsubscribe.asp?e=cypherpunks at toad.com      
To subscribe to Point2's newsletter, visit http://www.point2.com/notify.html  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Want to advertise on our newsletter? Visit http://www.point2.com/media-kit/ad-rates.html
To contact Point2 visit http://www.point2.com/contact-us/index.html or email info at point2.com
Legal Disclaimers:http://www.point2.com/about-us/legal-notice.html


			© 2001 Point2 Internet Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.
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From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Mar  7 13:40:05 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:40:05 -0600
Subject: AImee - silly spook stuff
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPCEHCCFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


I am caught up in some dark parody of The Scarecrow and Ms. King. Stop this
onlist and offlist paranoid train, I grow concerned that I might actually be
bothering somebody. I am just a curious young lawyer that stumbled in here
because I found the concepts intellectually fascinating, in stark contrast
to small law practice. I was immediately beset up by legendary Cypherpunk
demons who attacked me like Harpies, dragging me down into Hell. On your
side: Legions. On my side: Google. I do not need spook-training to mess with
your heads. I am a woman. It is part of my evolutionary memory.

Hrmmm....:

o clients complaining that office phone calls are sounding like cell phones
and skipping
o my phones are calling me back. Heck, my phones seem to be calling other
people back
o strange office visits from gentlemen looking for a lawyer
o strange phone calls from public officials and others in government service
just saying "hi"
o my Cayman box unplugged
o leak in roof over computer and men crawling up in my ceiling
o other stuff, I haven't thought about it yet...

....it's now official.... I AM PARANOID!! I AM A CYPHERPUNK!!

Let me say that I find LE and the Cypherpunks to be evenly matched. Law
enforcement, Cypherpunks and Intelligence Communities...Observation: The
Three Stooges in the WWF! In the event this is LE activity, I look forward
to my subpo so I can reveal you as a nest of tax-funded village idiots. The
REAL spooks in this forum are giggling themselves silly.

With best personal regards, I am,

Not impressed,



Miss Aimee E. Farr, Esq.

PS: And, I am not talking to the big, scary black horsey. I have reviewed
The Little Baylor Girl Rulebook.




From terrytalks4 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 13:06:54 2001
From: terrytalks4 at hotmail.com (Terry Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:06:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Here's Information You Requested on Low International Long Distance
Message-ID: <200103072106.QAA00290@aweber.com>


Hi 

 My name is Terry Sullivan
   
  Here is the information about low cost 
 International Long Distance service.

  There is no need to switch from your 
 present long distance carrier.

  Our best priced plan is (Call4Cents)

   To compare rates go to: 

      http://www.worldxchange.com/agent/210155

         Thank you for your interest  

                   
                 Terry Sullivan
                 1(800)941-2709
              terrytalks4 at hotmail.com




To stop additional follow up messages click below:
http://www.aweber.com/r.php?i=freetalk&e=cypherpunks%40toad.com




From abs at squig.org  Wed Mar  7 16:15:08 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:15:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs
In-Reply-To: <3a1cd8c4110c4cc302968e5a19f4d587@noisebox.remailer.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103071605330.17077-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>


Does this list have any male members who aren't misogynists? Sheesh.
Aimee's post seems to have flushed them out of the woodwork.

Alexandra

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim posting as Anonymous wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
>
> > CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> >
> > QUESTION #1.
> >
> > You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> > magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> >
> > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
>
> The answer is "G".
>
> > (a) you bite the apple.
>
> Biting the apple is stupid.  TANSTAAFL is rarely false under any
> circumstance, and absolutely never false when it is a woman offering
> gifts.  If that apple isn't poisoned or rotten, it's at least going to
> cost you more than it is worth. What do you want an apple for anyway?
> Do you need this apple? Are you starving? There might be certain
> circumstances where the apple is worth more to you than your continued
> well-being and sanity, but these would be rare. Usually you are better
> off dead. One is never advised to enter into contract with the devil
> simply because Mephistopheles appears in your living room. Be sure to
> have a damn good reason if you accept the apple, and be aware that
> this isn't a gift. It's a strategic barter for an exchange of goods or
> services unknown.
>
> (b) you take the woman.
>
> "Take" is ambiguous, but this can be interpreted as "advance the
> relationship with the woman past that of "stranger met in a passing
> encounter in the woods". This is a bad idea. Generally, one should avoid
> all relationships with women if it can be helped. The cost/benefit ratio
> is weighted heavily against them.
>
> Beauty is a flawed idea, and since beauty is indeed in the eye of the
> beholder, it is much more economical for you to consider the mundane
> beautiful. That way you won't be tempted by such things.
>
> And nothing a woman says can ever be trusted, *especially* one who is
> naked. Naked women always lie.
>
> (c) you run away.
>
> At first glance, this may appear to be the right thing to do. However,
> running away will make the woman more determined to ruin your life. A
> better option would be to back away very slowly, and hope she doesn't
> follow. If that fails, look for a big stick, and knock her unconscious,
> then run away.
>
>
> - -MW-
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> Comment: No comment.
>
> iQEVAwUBOqRCfysFU3q6vVI9AQGVVgf/ZM5+lGet2+GXNNcrP3l3LQTZ97QNB7e7
> o2cmwhGGOygTiNIcMBLuQ6Cv5OUDtUSvvIWFspuSGW1m1LYuHSsrTin1I/eBf+y8
> YYrzy4g4NkRePnI2wUiQ9D1rk4FDN+10h0Q7L8uDmRg0GqM65rCyUx3hf9Sk+gqV
> 7gZnn9Af6Wi4do44F07vYkVTNlHonJF8yBliswe6sgZI5KAQ6g1gBKCMB6vohUCS
> CR7RdX42RxujpT5gYZp/4e0Mm4o/vKiAt9UqQcJ9w72gcWlA9xRp7HnXjfEh4yXe
> in3mPdUrPNYCPbjaen3tos6Cq2U3auMlhGT/5Br+dy7Ckus90YulYQ==
> =4ATr
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From abs at squig.org  Wed Mar  7 16:15:08 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:15:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs
In-Reply-To: <3a1cd8c4110c4cc302968e5a19f4d587@noisebox.remailer.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103071605330.17077-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.
  org>


Does this list have any male members who aren't misogynists? Sheesh.
Aimee's post seems to have flushed them out of the woodwork.

Alexandra

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim posting as Anonymous wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
>
> > CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> >
> > QUESTION #1.
> >
> > You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> > magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> >
> > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
>
> The answer is "G".
>
> > (a) you bite the apple.
>
> Biting the apple is stupid.  TANSTAAFL is rarely false under any
> circumstance, and absolutely never false when it is a woman offering
> gifts.  If that apple isn't poisoned or rotten, it's at least going to
> cost you more than it is worth. What do you want an apple for anyway?
> Do you need this apple? Are you starving? There might be certain
> circumstances where the apple is worth more to you than your continued
> well-being and sanity, but these would be rare. Usually you are better
> off dead. One is never advised to enter into contract with the devil
> simply because Mephistopheles appears in your living room. Be sure to
> have a damn good reason if you accept the apple, and be aware that
> this isn't a gift. It's a strategic barter for an exchange of goods or
> services unknown.
>
> (b) you take the woman.
>
> "Take" is ambiguous, but this can be interpreted as "advance the
> relationship with the woman past that of "stranger met in a passing
> encounter in the woods". This is a bad idea. Generally, one should avoid
> all relationships with women if it can be helped. The cost/benefit ratio
> is weighted heavily against them.
>
> Beauty is a flawed idea, and since beauty is indeed in the eye of the
> beholder, it is much more economical for you to consider the mundane
> beautiful. That way you won't be tempted by such things.
>
> And nothing a woman says can ever be trusted, *especially* one who is
> naked. Naked women always lie.
>
> (c) you run away.
>
> At first glance, this may appear to be the right thing to do. However,
> running away will make the woman more determined to ruin your life. A
> better option would be to back away very slowly, and hope she doesn't
> follow. If that fails, look for a big stick, and knock her unconscious,
> then run away.
>
>
> - -MW-
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> Comment: No comment.
>
> iQEVAwUBOqRCfysFU3q6vVI9AQGVVgf/ZM5+lGet2+GXNNcrP3l3LQTZ97QNB7e7
> o2cmwhGGOygTiNIcMBLuQ6Cv5OUDtUSvvIWFspuSGW1m1LYuHSsrTin1I/eBf+y8
> YYrzy4g4NkRePnI2wUiQ9D1rk4FDN+10h0Q7L8uDmRg0GqM65rCyUx3hf9Sk+gqV
> 7gZnn9Af6Wi4do44F07vYkVTNlHonJF8yBliswe6sgZI5KAQ6g1gBKCMB6vohUCS
> CR7RdX42RxujpT5gYZp/4e0Mm4o/vKiAt9UqQcJ9w72gcWlA9xRp7HnXjfEh4yXe
> in3mPdUrPNYCPbjaen3tos6Cq2U3auMlhGT/5Br+dy7Ckus90YulYQ==
> =4ATr
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From tapasu2000 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 16:18:41 2001
From: tapasu2000 at yahoo.com (tapasu kanik)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:18:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Earn Extra Money.
Message-ID: <20010308001841.97187.qmail@web11401.mail.yahoo.com>


Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
from your home for an
investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
======================================================

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following.
This is the letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the
popularity of this
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program
recently devoted an
entire show to the investigation of this program
described below, to see if
it really can make people money.\\~ The show also
investigated whether or not
the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there are
''absolutely NO Laws
prohibiting the participation in the program and if
people can -follow the
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega
bucks with only $25
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF
POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS 
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER
THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this
profitable opportunity. I was
approached many times before but each time I passed on
it. I am so glad I
finally joined just to see what one could expect in
return for the minimal
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I
received total $ 610,470.00
in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam
Hedland, Fort Lee, New
Jersey. 

=======================================================
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been
around for a long
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I
received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed
the simple
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money
started to come in.
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months
after that I made a
total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by
re-entering the
program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing
it again. The key to
success in this program is to follow the simple steps
and NOT change 
anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 

===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ========

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to
5 months easily and
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT
AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL
DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====


For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF
THE REPORT YOU ARE 
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose
name appears ON THAT 
LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS
IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

=== When you place your order, make sure you order
each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them
on your computer and
resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each
of the 5 reports from
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your
computer so they will be
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people
who will order them from
you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it
on your disk in case
something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who
are listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way
other than what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will
loose out on majority 
of your profits. Once you understand the way this
works, you will also see 
how it does
not work if you change it. Remember, this method has
been tested, and if you
alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put
their friends/relatives 
names on 
all five thinking they could get all the money. But it
does not work this 
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and
then nothing happened. So 
Do Not try to change anything other than what is
instructed. Because if you 
do, it will not work 
for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this
advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5.
This person
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting
their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO
REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO
REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO
REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO
REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1
Position. PLEASE 
MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

=============================================================

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list
of names, and save it on 
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose
any data. To assist you 
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5
reports you purchase will 
provide you with invaluable marketing information
which includes how to send 
bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free
classified ads and much 
more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture
going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see
how it goes, and we 
will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000
e-mails each. Let's also 
assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response
(the response could be 
much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also
many people will send out 
hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000
each). Continuing with
this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for
report # 1. Those 10 people 
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total
of 50,000. Out of 
those 
50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders.
That's=100 people responded 
and ordered Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a
total of 500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #
3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a
total of 5 million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000
orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a
total of 50,000,000
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=============================================================

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=============================================================
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==========================================================
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________________________________________________________

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________________________________________________________________

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________________________________________________________________

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=============================================================

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\\~
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...........# 5 as 
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=============================================================
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=============================================================

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=============================================================
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=============================================================

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=============================================================
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__________________________________________________
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 15:27:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:27:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Current Public Announcements and Current Travel Warnings (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010307172726.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:59:26 -0500
From: PA List Manager <statelists at STATE.GOV>
To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV
Subject: Current Public Announcements and Current Travel Warnings

CURRENT PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS

Country/Subject                                 Issued  Expires

Federal Republic of Yugoslavia                  3/6/01  5/30/01
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia           3/1/01  5/30/01
Haiti                                           2/23/01 4/23/01
Burma                                           2/16/01 4/15/01
Thailand                                                2/15/01 4/15/01
El Salvador                                     2/14/01 5/9/01
Vietnam                                         2/12/01 4/8/01
Fiji                                            2/9/01  5/9/01
Ecuador                                         2/7/01  5/7/01
Philippines                                     2/1/01  5/1/01
Laos                                            1/30/01 4/1/01
Nepal                                           1/23/01 3/15/01
Tanzania                                        1/18/01 4/19/01
Guyana                                          1/11/01 4/11/01
Malaysia                                        1/11/01 6/11/01
Mali                                            1/5/01  4/4/01
Worldwide Caution                               1/5/01  6/7/01
Philippines                                     1/5/00  4/5/01
Zambia                                          12/13/00        3/12/01
East Timor                                      11/3/00 3/7/01
Peru                                            10/26/00        4/30/01
Kyrgyz Republic                                 9/08/00 3/15/01

                        TOTAL: 22                               Updated
3/7/01

Current Travel Warnings



                Solomon Islands                         2/27/01
                Indonesia                               2/27/01
                Somalia                                 2/16/01
                Federal Republic of Yugoslavia          2/13/01
                Haiti                                   2/5/01
                Democratic Republic of the Congo                1/21/01
                Israel, the West Bank and Gaza          1/12/01
                Afghanistan                             12/12/00
                Sudan                                   12/12/00
                Burundi                                 12/7/00
                Bosnia & Herzegovina                    11/29/00
                Liberia                                 11/2/00
                Yemen                                   10/12/00
                Angola                                  9/8/00
                Tajikistan                              8/30/00
                Lebanon                                 8/28/00
                Sierra Leone                            8/4/00
                Albania                                 6/12/00
                Republic of Congo                       5/3/00
                Nigeria                                 4/7/00
                Algeria                                 3/31/00
                Colombia                                1/28/00
                Iran                                    9/14/99
                Iraq                                    9/10/99
                Pakistan                                        8/10/99
                Libya                                   8/4/99
                Guinea-Bissau                           6/14/98

                        Total:  27              List updated 2/28/01



                                Internet home page at
http://travel.state.gov
                                Recorded information by telephone:
202-647-5225
                                Information by automated faxback:
202-647-3000

***********************************************************
See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for
State Department Travel Warnings
************************************************************
To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs.html




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 15:34:29 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:34:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Re: Re: Cypherpunks IQ test]
In-Reply-To: <20010307185131.6521.qmail@nwcst330.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010307173336.5925e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On 7 Mar 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

> What is an AI?

A techno-wet dream. [1]

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Artificial Intelligence






From gxi6 at kxvsyz.net  Wed Mar  7 14:36:08 2001
From: gxi6 at kxvsyz.net (gxi6 at kxvsyz.net)
Date: Wed,  7 Mar 2001 17:36:08 -0500
Subject: fwd: [auto response]
Message-ID: <200103071226589.SM00277@dsf234wdf234rwsdf>



DIRECT INVITATION: ANOTHER CHANCE TO PARTICIPATE

FREE LEADS TO ALL WHO ARE SERIOUS!!
THOUSANDS WILL BE MADE IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS!!
THE LONGER YOU WAIT, THE MORE YOU MISS OUT ON!!

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AND MAXIMIZE YOUR INCOME!!  TAKE A LOOK BELOW!!


http://www.geocities.com/anewcashpage1700/




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Mar  7 17:57:51 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:57:51 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103071605330.17077-100000@snuffy.whitetrash
  .  org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103071605330.17077-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.
   org>
Message-ID: <a05010402b6cc96b271f0@[207.111.241.100]>


At 4:15 PM -0800 3/7/01, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote:
>Does this list have any male members who aren't misogynists? Sheesh.
>Aimee's post seems to have flushed them out of the woodwork.
>
>Alexandra


What a pussy thing to say.

As for Aimee's posts, I've seen nothing of substance. I've seen her, 
or it, post a bunch of trolls, a lot of spam, some kind of 
"Cypherpunks I.Q. Test" junk, and some plaintive squeals about how 
the List doesn't appreciate the natterings of a confused, 
PMS-stricken, impoverished Texas shyster.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 16:32:41 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:32:41 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Death of the General Purpose PC
Message-ID: <3AA6D329.78741202@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/07/2135216.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 16:34:08 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:34:08 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Rep. Gets It - Boucher Re-Examines Fair Use
Message-ID: <3AA6D380.8CED97EF@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/07/1741236.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 16:37:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:37:10 -0600
Subject: The Register - More Napster v Aimster
Message-ID: <3AA6D436.A1BE4059@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/17409.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From dumb at beer.fridge.com  Wed Mar  7 10:56:25 2001
From: dumb at beer.fridge.com (How stupid do I look)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:56:25 +0000
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ test
In-Reply-To: <1595e0780cbd7342c4de347e6b482f51@harrisherd.com>
References: <1595e0780cbd7342c4de347e6b482f51@harrisherd.com>
Message-ID: <200103071429.f27ETXu28659@choice.drlogick.com>



Quoting Anonymous (nobody at harrisherd.com):
> > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> > 
> > (a) you bite the apple.
> > (b) you take the woman.
> > (c) you run away.
> > (d) a and b, but not c.
> > (e) b and c only.
> > (f) all of the above.
> > (g) none of the above.
> > 
> > 2. Please justify your answer:
> > 
> 
> Ms. Farr is unquestionably an AI.  Please do not feed the Markov chains.

But how can you really tell?
 



-- 
      No halting.

     The Management




From alphabeta121 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 19:08:13 2001
From: alphabeta121 at hotmail.com (alphabeta121)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:08:13 -0800
Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting  Announcement
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010308144051.009de070@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <OE8pLTkUD5euwdUTaGm000016dc@hotmail.com>


how far is das bier garten to the mass transit?
if its less than a 30 min walk i can hoof it.

brent

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodney Thayer" <rodney at tillerman.to>
To: <cypherpunks at cyberpass.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:41 PM
Subject: CDR: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting
Announcement


> See http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html
> for SF, Toronto, & Bangalore Cypherpunks announcements.
>
>
> SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement
>
> General Info:
>
> DATE:   Saturday 8 March 2001
> TIME:   12:00 - 5:30 PM (Pacific Time)
> PLACE:  Alpine Inn (aka Alpine Beer Garden)
> 3915 Alpine Road, Portola Valley, CA 94028 USA
>
> Agenda
>     "Our agenda is a widely-held secret."
> At Noon, we mill around for a bit: the organized program begins about 1:00
pm.
> As usual, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited.
>
> TECHNICAL TRACK
>
>
>       .xxx domains and a W-Washington update --  Declan McCullagh
>
>       Declan will hold forth on his recent work opposing the creation of
>       a .xxx top-level domain.  Also, he'll give an update on what 'W'
>       seems to be up to in Washington, vis a vis export, network security,
>       e-commerce, and anything else we can convince him to talk about.
>
>       PKCS #11 application development: Project 'Minow' -- Rodney Thayer
>
>       Rodney will talk about his recent adventures in the world of PKCS
#11
>       tokens.  He's been developing a set of tools to work with various
>       kinds of key storage devices, including the iButton.
>
> POLICY TRACK
>
>       Open discussion on TLD's, new.net, etc.
>
> CONFERENCE TRACK:
>
>       Our brethern and sistern are off in snowy Boston freezing there
>       encrypted key material off.  We'll have an update next time,
hopefully.
>
> NOTE NOTE NOTE:
>       Next month's meeting will be the Saturday BEFORE the RSA Conference,
>       the 7th, that's the FIRST Saturday of the month, following the
>       canonical standard nonstandard algorithm change for RSA Conference
>       month.
>
> Location
>
>     We meet at the tables out the back door and to the right.
>
>     Food and beverages are available at the cafe inside Tresidder.
>
>     For lo these many moons - the flotsam, jetsam, bikers, movers,
shakers,
>     VC's and horsemen of the Bay Area have mooted at this historic
location.
>     Many a standard (ISO, ANSI, IEEE, RFC, et al) has been hammered out
there
>     on the carved up tabletops - lubricated by burgers and beer.
>
>     (In case that wasn't clear, it's a BEER GARDEN.  Has food too --
burgers,
>     etc.)
>
>     Just behind Palo Alto toward the ocean. Take the Alpine Road exit off
280
>     heading away from the flatlands for a few miles until you see
Arastradero
>     Rd on your left - and it's right on that corner.
>
>
> Location Maps:
>
>
http://yp9.superpages.com/listings.phtml?SRC=&STYPE=S&PG=L&R=N&C=&N=alpine+i
nn&T=portola+valley&S=CA&search=Find+It&pow=0&rtd=yp10.superpages.com
>
>
>
> If you have questions, comments or last-minute agenda requests, please
> contact the meeting organizer/victim:
> Rodney Thayer rodney at tillerman.to +1 408 757 9693
>
>




From auto129994 at hushmail.com  Wed Mar  7 16:35:28 2001
From: auto129994 at hushmail.com (auto129994 at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:35:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Spammimic (was: Re: Cypherpunks IQ test)
Message-ID: <200103080035.QAA20236@user7.hushmail.com>


"Aimee Farr" <aimee.farr at pobox.com> wrote:

> I am shallow. Not artificial.

Encoded as:

> <snip spam>

Was that supposed to be another puzzle or something?  And am I supposed 
to be impressed by that?

Just wondering.

<auto129994 at hushmail.com>





Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 18:59:03 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:59:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Crypto Short Course (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010307205856.5925s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:32:58 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at shipwright.com>
To: cryptography at c2.net, coderpunks at toad.com,
    Digital Bearer Settlement List <dbs at philodox.com>
Subject: Crypto Short Course


--- begin forwarded text



From lvild at usa.net  Wed Mar  7 21:10:22 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 7 Mar 2001 21:10:22 PST
Subject: abs@squig.org
Message-ID: <20010308051022.22913.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net>


Alexandra, 

I've tried making friends with Aimee but she won't give a straight answer.
I'm not so amused by all this controversy but I am not shy about
my intentions to find a woman for keeps.
You are a in my line of vision.

Please give me your thoughts on this.

Luis V.

"Alex B. Shepardsen" <abs at squig.org> wrote:
> 
> Does this list have any male members who aren't misogynists? Sheesh.
> Aimee's post seems to have flushed them out of the woodwork.
> 
> Alexandra
> 
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim posting as Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
> >
> > > CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> > >
> > > QUESTION #1.
> > >
> > > You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> > > magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> > >
> > > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> >
> > The answer is "G".
> >
> > > (a) you bite the apple.
> >
> > Biting the apple is stupid.  TANSTAAFL is rarely false under any
> > circumstance, and absolutely never false when it is a woman offering
> > gifts.  If that apple isn't poisoned or rotten, it's at least going to
> > cost you more than it is worth. What do you want an apple for anyway?
> > Do you need this apple? Are you starving? There might be certain
> > circumstances where the apple is worth more to you than your continued
> > well-being and sanity, but these would be rare. Usually you are better
> > off dead. One is never advised to enter into contract with the devil
> > simply because Mephistopheles appears in your living room. Be sure to
> > have a damn good reason if you accept the apple, and be aware that
> > this isn't a gift. It's a strategic barter for an exchange of goods or
> > services unknown.
> >
> > (b) you take the woman.
> >
> > "Take" is ambiguous, but this can be interpreted as "advance the
> > relationship with the woman past that of "stranger met in a passing
> > encounter in the woods". This is a bad idea. Generally, one should avoid
> > all relationships with women if it can be helped. The cost/benefit ratio
> > is weighted heavily against them.
> >
> > Beauty is a flawed idea, and since beauty is indeed in the eye of the
> > beholder, it is much more economical for you to consider the mundane
> > beautiful. That way you won't be tempted by such things.
> >
> > And nothing a woman says can ever be trusted, *especially* one who is
> > naked. Naked women always lie.
> >
> > (c) you run away.
> >
> > At first glance, this may appear to be the right thing to do. However,
> > running away will make the woman more determined to ruin your life. A
> > better option would be to back away very slowly, and hope she doesn't
> > follow. If that fails, look for a big stick, and knock her unconscious,
> > then run away.
> >
> >
> > - -MW-
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> > Comment: No comment.
> >
> > iQEVAwUBOqRCfysFU3q6vVI9AQGVVgf/ZM5+lGet2+GXNNcrP3l3LQTZ97QNB7e7
> > o2cmwhGGOygTiNIcMBLuQ6Cv5OUDtUSvvIWFspuSGW1m1LYuHSsrTin1I/eBf+y8
> > YYrzy4g4NkRePnI2wUiQ9D1rk4FDN+10h0Q7L8uDmRg0GqM65rCyUx3hf9Sk+gqV
> > 7gZnn9Af6Wi4do44F07vYkVTNlHonJF8yBliswe6sgZI5KAQ6g1gBKCMB6vohUCS
> > CR7RdX42RxujpT5gYZp/4e0Mm4o/vKiAt9UqQcJ9w72gcWlA9xRp7HnXjfEh4yXe
> > in3mPdUrPNYCPbjaen3tos6Cq2U3auMlhGT/5Br+dy7Ckus90YulYQ==
> > =4ATr
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 
> 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 19:10:28 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:10:28 -0600
Subject: The Register - Open PC's are dead! (Long Live Economic Fascism)
Message-ID: <3AA6F824.96541F2A@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/17419.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From Crossroads at emarkethost.net  Wed Mar  7 13:53:42 2001
From: Crossroads at emarkethost.net (Crossroads at emarkethost.net)
Date: 7 Mar 2001 21:53:42 GMT
Subject: Consider Crossroads
Message-ID: <200103072154.NAA29611@toad.com>

We found your resume on the web, and after evaluating your
qualifications we feel you would be a good fit at Crossroads.  We
invite you to explore some opportunities, please take two minutes to
confidentially register and describe your job requirements by visiting
our career site here:

http://hire.emarkethost.net/mk/get/RECROSS1?_ED=lP0SrX8oIGm4OcGknwjp-M 

Your requirements will be immediately matched against all posted
positions. The second there's a match, either now or in the future,
you'll instantly be notified via email. It's like having your own
private search agent 24x7. 

It's quick. It's easy. It's free. It's completely confidential. And,
best of all, you control the process. 

Just let the perfect job find you!  And, tell your friends about us!

Sincerely, 
       
Jennifer L. Gose
Manager of Staffing, Crossroads Systems, Inc.

www.crossroads.com
Crossroads Systems is a leading provider of connectivity for storage
networking solutions, based in Austin, Texas.

-MARKET GROWTH: 250 percent through 2004 according to IDC. 
-CROSSROADS GROWTH: revenues grew 75% to $33 million in 2000 
-TECHNOLOGY LEADER: 7 patents issued or allowed and 31 patents pending 
-MARKET LEADER: Customers include: SUN, IBM, HP, DELL, Storage TEK, and
Siemens 
-AUSTIN, TX: Ranked #1 - Forbes Best Places in America 

Crossroads' mission is to become the company that customers trust to
link business with information, regardless of technology and location.

If you do not wish to receive future news, tips and promotions 
from us, please reply (including all original text) with 
Unsubscribe in the subject line.

-----------Please do not change the next line-----------
ABAADDBLABEAJFNEABGADAHJIAGAJFBL-

Powered by MarketFirst(TM)
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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar  7 20:06:51 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:06:51 -0600
Subject: MATT DRUDGE // DRUDGE REPORT 2001� - Billary is a dick
Message-ID: <3AA7055B.E12ADC8E@ssz.com>


http://www.drudgereport.com/mattl.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From abs at squig.org  Wed Mar  7 23:30:13 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:30:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: abs@squig.org
In-Reply-To: <20010308051022.22913.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103072329400.17584-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.
  org>


So we're posting classified ads to cypherpunks now?

Alex

On 7 Mar 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

> Alexandra,
>
> I've tried making friends with Aimee but she won't give a straight answer.
> I'm not so amused by all this controversy but I am not shy about
> my intentions to find a woman for keeps.
> You are a in my line of vision.
>
> Please give me your thoughts on this.
>
> Luis V.
>
> "Alex B. Shepardsen" <abs at squig.org> wrote:
> >
> > Does this list have any male members who aren't misogynists? Sheesh.
> > Aimee's post seems to have flushed them out of the woodwork.
> >
> > Alexandra
> >
> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim posting as Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >
> > > On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
> > >
> > > > CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> > > >
> > > > QUESTION #1.
> > > >
> > > > You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> > > > magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> > > >
> > > > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> > >
> > > The answer is "G".
> > >
> > > > (a) you bite the apple.
> > >
> > > Biting the apple is stupid.  TANSTAAFL is rarely false under any
> > > circumstance, and absolutely never false when it is a woman offering
> > > gifts.  If that apple isn't poisoned or rotten, it's at least going to
> > > cost you more than it is worth. What do you want an apple for anyway?
> > > Do you need this apple? Are you starving? There might be certain
> > > circumstances where the apple is worth more to you than your continued
> > > well-being and sanity, but these would be rare. Usually you are better
> > > off dead. One is never advised to enter into contract with the devil
> > > simply because Mephistopheles appears in your living room. Be sure to
> > > have a damn good reason if you accept the apple, and be aware that
> > > this isn't a gift. It's a strategic barter for an exchange of goods or
> > > services unknown.
> > >
> > > (b) you take the woman.
> > >
> > > "Take" is ambiguous, but this can be interpreted as "advance the
> > > relationship with the woman past that of "stranger met in a passing
> > > encounter in the woods". This is a bad idea. Generally, one should avoid
> > > all relationships with women if it can be helped. The cost/benefit ratio
> > > is weighted heavily against them.
> > >
> > > Beauty is a flawed idea, and since beauty is indeed in the eye of the
> > > beholder, it is much more economical for you to consider the mundane
> > > beautiful. That way you won't be tempted by such things.
> > >
> > > And nothing a woman says can ever be trusted, *especially* one who is
> > > naked. Naked women always lie.
> > >
> > > (c) you run away.
> > >
> > > At first glance, this may appear to be the right thing to do. However,
> > > running away will make the woman more determined to ruin your life. A
> > > better option would be to back away very slowly, and hope she doesn't
> > > follow. If that fails, look for a big stick, and knock her unconscious,
> > > then run away.
> > >
> > >
> > > - -MW-
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> > > Comment: No comment.
> > >
> > > iQEVAwUBOqRCfysFU3q6vVI9AQGVVgf/ZM5+lGet2+GXNNcrP3l3LQTZ97QNB7e7
> > > o2cmwhGGOygTiNIcMBLuQ6Cv5OUDtUSvvIWFspuSGW1m1LYuHSsrTin1I/eBf+y8
> > > YYrzy4g4NkRePnI2wUiQ9D1rk4FDN+10h0Q7L8uDmRg0GqM65rCyUx3hf9Sk+gqV
> > > 7gZnn9Af6Wi4do44F07vYkVTNlHonJF8yBliswe6sgZI5KAQ6g1gBKCMB6vohUCS
> > > CR7RdX42RxujpT5gYZp/4e0Mm4o/vKiAt9UqQcJ9w72gcWlA9xRp7HnXjfEh4yXe
> > > in3mPdUrPNYCPbjaen3tos6Cq2U3auMlhGT/5Br+dy7Ckus90YulYQ==
> > > =4ATr
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From abs at squig.org  Wed Mar  7 23:30:13 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:30:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: abs@squig.org
In-Reply-To: <20010308051022.22913.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103072329400.17584-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>


So we're posting classified ads to cypherpunks now?

Alex

On 7 Mar 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

> Alexandra,
>
> I've tried making friends with Aimee but she won't give a straight answer.
> I'm not so amused by all this controversy but I am not shy about
> my intentions to find a woman for keeps.
> You are a in my line of vision.
>
> Please give me your thoughts on this.
>
> Luis V.
>
> "Alex B. Shepardsen" <abs at squig.org> wrote:
> >
> > Does this list have any male members who aren't misogynists? Sheesh.
> > Aimee's post seems to have flushed them out of the woodwork.
> >
> > Alexandra
> >
> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim posting as Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >
> > > On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
> > >
> > > > CYPHERPUNKS IQ TEST
> > > >
> > > > QUESTION #1.
> > > >
> > > > You are walking through the woods alone. A beautiful unclothed woman
> > > > magically appears in front of you. She holds out an apple.
> > > >
> > > > 1. Please darken in the correct choice using a Number Two pencil:
> > >
> > > The answer is "G".
> > >
> > > > (a) you bite the apple.
> > >
> > > Biting the apple is stupid.  TANSTAAFL is rarely false under any
> > > circumstance, and absolutely never false when it is a woman offering
> > > gifts.  If that apple isn't poisoned or rotten, it's at least going to
> > > cost you more than it is worth. What do you want an apple for anyway?
> > > Do you need this apple? Are you starving? There might be certain
> > > circumstances where the apple is worth more to you than your continued
> > > well-being and sanity, but these would be rare. Usually you are better
> > > off dead. One is never advised to enter into contract with the devil
> > > simply because Mephistopheles appears in your living room. Be sure to
> > > have a damn good reason if you accept the apple, and be aware that
> > > this isn't a gift. It's a strategic barter for an exchange of goods or
> > > services unknown.
> > >
> > > (b) you take the woman.
> > >
> > > "Take" is ambiguous, but this can be interpreted as "advance the
> > > relationship with the woman past that of "stranger met in a passing
> > > encounter in the woods". This is a bad idea. Generally, one should avoid
> > > all relationships with women if it can be helped. The cost/benefit ratio
> > > is weighted heavily against them.
> > >
> > > Beauty is a flawed idea, and since beauty is indeed in the eye of the
> > > beholder, it is much more economical for you to consider the mundane
> > > beautiful. That way you won't be tempted by such things.
> > >
> > > And nothing a woman says can ever be trusted, *especially* one who is
> > > naked. Naked women always lie.
> > >
> > > (c) you run away.
> > >
> > > At first glance, this may appear to be the right thing to do. However,
> > > running away will make the woman more determined to ruin your life. A
> > > better option would be to back away very slowly, and hope she doesn't
> > > follow. If that fails, look for a big stick, and knock her unconscious,
> > > then run away.
> > >
> > >
> > > - -MW-
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> > > Comment: No comment.
> > >
> > > iQEVAwUBOqRCfysFU3q6vVI9AQGVVgf/ZM5+lGet2+GXNNcrP3l3LQTZ97QNB7e7
> > > o2cmwhGGOygTiNIcMBLuQ6Cv5OUDtUSvvIWFspuSGW1m1LYuHSsrTin1I/eBf+y8
> > > YYrzy4g4NkRePnI2wUiQ9D1rk4FDN+10h0Q7L8uDmRg0GqM65rCyUx3hf9Sk+gqV
> > > 7gZnn9Af6Wi4do44F07vYkVTNlHonJF8yBliswe6sgZI5KAQ6g1gBKCMB6vohUCS
> > > CR7RdX42RxujpT5gYZp/4e0Mm4o/vKiAt9UqQcJ9w72gcWlA9xRp7HnXjfEh4yXe
> > > in3mPdUrPNYCPbjaen3tos6Cq2U3auMlhGT/5Br+dy7Ckus90YulYQ==
> > > =4ATr
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
>




From sstein at computing.dundee.ac.uk  Wed Mar  7 15:42:26 2001
From: sstein at computing.dundee.ac.uk (Stuart Stein)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:42:26 -0000
Subject: MAIL (SPAM) FILTERING ON CYPHERPUNKS
Message-ID: <014001c0a760$448379e0$e0d22486@stuart>

Anyone got any information good ways to set up filters for this list, setting up a filter on the from address is giving me a huge list of addresses to block and I am constantly having to add addresses to it. There has to be a more effiecent way of doing it. This is the only list I am subscribed to that i get spammed on.

Any ideas

Cheers

Stuart
______________________________________________

The boy stood and stared at the hill, and the hill it stared back.
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From gkmark at consultant.com  Wed Mar  7 15:18:42 2001
From: gkmark at consultant.com (Global Marketing)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:18:42 +0300
Subject: =?windows-1251?Q?=CD=E0=F8=E8_=EF=EE=E7=E4=F0=E0=E2=EB=E5=ED=E8=FF!?=
Message-ID: <200103090609.WAA02164@toad.com>

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From jackie at email.com  Wed Mar  7 17:28:19 2001
From: jackie at email.com (jackie at email.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:28:19 +0100
Subject: New Password!
Message-ID: <20010308012821Z120003-178+1858@www.email.com>


Dear Steven,

Do you remember when I promised to send you a password to view my site?
Well I am sorry it has taken so long but as I promised here it is.  All you
have to do is go to my site http://1043636856/star992/star.html and get it.  
You will get 5 days FREE to see me and all the hottest young girls doing the
dirtiest things.

Did I tell you it was FREE?  Thats right, FREE!!  You won't find a better
site out there, especially for FREE!  You won't have to worry about your
wife seeing your credit card because you don't have to pay anything.  When
you get there remember to check out my pictures and drop me an email
telling me what you think.  I'm at http://1043636856/star992/star.html

bye,

Jackie


PS - If you wish to be removed from this list just reply and type REMOVE
as the subject of the message.




From jamehta at wilnetonline.net  Wed Mar  7 13:05:26 2001
From: jamehta at wilnetonline.net (jamehta at wilnetonline.net)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:35:26 +0530
Subject: a request for help regarding rc5 algorithm from a student
Message-ID: <MABBJBJJGOEMCKDFMOPKEEEJCAAA.jamehta@wilnetonline.net>


respected sir,
       i am a student(B.E,electronics) of M S University,Baroda,India.my
name is kurang mehta. as my final year project i am implementing voice
encryption algorithm using the dsp kit tms320c5x. i came across your
reference by surfing the net. i have implemented the rc5 encryption
algorithm but the decryption part is becoming a problem for me. i am
herewith sending you the encryption algorithm:

We assume that the input block is given in two w-bit registers A and B. We
also assume that key-expansion has already been performed, so that the array
S[0...t-1] has been computed. Below is the encryption algorithm in
pseudo-code. The output is also placed in registers A and B.

     A = A + S[0];
     B = B + S[1];
     FOR i = 1 TO r DO

          A = ((A [Image] B) <<< B) + S[2*i];
          B = ((B [Image] A) <<< A) + S[2*i+1];

The key expansion is also performed as showm below:(Image is any constant)


The first algorithmic step of key expansion is to copy the secret key
K[0...b-1] into an array L[0...c-1] of c = [Image] words, where u=w/8 is the
number of bytes/word. This operation is done in a natural manner, using u
consecutive key bytes of K to fill up each successive word in L, low-order
byte to high-order byte. Any unfilled byte positions of L are zeroed.

The second algorithmic step of key expansion is to initialize array S to a
particular fixed (key-independent) pseudo-random bit pattern, using an
arithmetic progression modulo [Image] determined by the "magic constants"
[Image] and [Image]. Since [Image] is odd, the arithmetic progression has
period [Image].

     S[0] = [Image];
     FOR i = 1 TO t-1 DO

          S[i] = S[i-1] + [Image];

The third algorithmic step of key expansion is to mix in the user's secret
key in three passes over the arrays S and L. More precisely, due to the
potentially different sizes of S and L, the larger array will be processed
three times, and the other may be handled more times.

     i = j = 0;
     A = B = 0;
     DO 3*max(t,c) TIMES:

          A = S[i] = (S[i] + A + B) <<< 3;
          B = L[j] = (L[j] + A + B) <<< (A+B);
          i = (i + 1) mod(t);
          j = (j + 1) mod(c);

The key-expansion function has a certain amount of "one-wayness": it is not
so easy to determine K from S.

Now if possible i would like to get some help from you regarding the rc5
decryption algorithm (in the form of source code or c language).

awaiting a response at the earliest.

sincerely yours

kurang




From newsuccesslink9002 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 03:26:55 2001
From: newsuccesslink9002 at aol.com (newsuccesslink9002 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 06:26:55 -0500
Subject: ADV: SUCCESS LINK
Message-ID: <200103081126.GAA10731@ns.idirect.com>



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AND MAXIMIZE YOUR INCOME!!  TAKE A LOOK BELOW!!


http://www.geocities.com/success35205/










***************************************************************
THIS EMAIL COMPLIES WITH ALL REGULATIONS AND IS NOT SPAM.  TO 
PERMANENTLY REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THE LIST SIMPLY EMAIL
permanentremoval at excite.com WITH "REMOVE" AS THE SUBJECT LINE.
***************************************************************




From directresponse33221 at juno.com  Thu Mar  8 03:28:48 2001
From: directresponse33221 at juno.com (directresponse33221 at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 06:28:48 -0500
Subject: Weekly Update
Message-ID: <200103081128.GAA11046@ns.idirect.com>



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***************************************************************
THIS EMAIL COMPLIES WITH ALL REGULATIONS AND IS NOT SPAM.  TO 
PERMANENTLY REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THE LIST SIMPLY EMAIL
permanentremoval at excite.com WITH "REMOVE" AS THE SUBJECT LINE.
***************************************************************




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 05:27:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 07:27:37 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Study: Kids rate bullying and teasing as 'big problem' - March 7, 2001
Message-ID: <3AA788C9.3FE2585F@ssz.com>


Yah figure?...

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/03/08/violence.survey/index.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 05:34:03 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 07:34:03 -0600
Subject: The Register - FBI & NSA Big Winners!
Message-ID: <3AA78A4B.1A605410@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17428.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From aluger at hushmail.com  Thu Mar  8 08:15:12 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:15:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: abs@squig.org
Message-ID: <200103081613.IAA25212@user1.hushmail.com>


At Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:30:13 -0800 (PST), "Alex B. Shepardsen" <abs at squig.org> 
wrote:

>
>So we're posting classified ads to cypherpunks now?
>
>Alex

That's not what Cypherpunks is for?
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

From ericm at lne.com  Thu Mar  8 08:23:10 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:23:10 -0800
Subject: MAIL (SPAM) FILTERING ON CYPHERPUNKS
In-Reply-To: <014001c0a760$448379e0$e0d22486@stuart>; from
  sstein@computing.dundee.ac.uk on Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:42:26PM -0000
References: <014001c0a760$448379e0$e0d22486@stuart>
Message-ID: <20010308082310.A20898@slack.lne.com>


On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:42:26PM -0000, Stuart Stein wrote:
> Anyone got any information good ways to set up filters for this list, setting
> up a filter on the from address is giving me a huge list of addresses to block
> and I am constantly having to add addresses to it. There has to be a more
> effiecent way of doing it. 

Filtering the From: line won't work- the list keeps getting added
to new "macketing lists" and web sites.

Filtering cypherpunks mail that originates at toad.com gets a lot of
the spam.  But, after that was identified as a way to avoid the
spam, the other CDRs started getting added to the spam lists.  Hmm.
So filtering it out only does so much; and there are still
non-spam posts that are sent through toad.

I've set up a CDR which filters out posts from non-subscribers
to any CDR.  Posts from non-subscribers (like you) are forwarded
to the list if they're not spam.

% echo "info cypherpunks" | mail majordomo at lne.com

> This is the only list I am subscribed to that i get
> spammed on.

You're fortunate!

A third option is to run a program that recognizes spam
contents.  I've written one: www.lne.com/ericm/spammaster.

-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From BF at farc.org  Thu Mar  8 08:45:32 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:45:32 -0800
Subject: Ellison vs. Gnutella
Message-ID: <3AA7B72B.A5D17884@farc.org>


With the second amended complaint, we were able to add a complaint for
vicarious infringement against AOL for the,development of the Gnutella
file transfer protocol by its Nullsoft division. Gnutella is Napster
without a central processing hub.,By setting up a “sting” operation, one
of our investigators was able to track the infringement of several works
by Harlan and,Isaac Asimov using Gnutella. This presents interesting
issues regarding the responsibility for the release of software
which,effectively pollutes the intellectual property environment.

http://www.speculations.com/kick.htm




From BF at farc.org  Thu Mar  8 09:11:52 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:11:52 -0800
Subject: marines on chicks' leg hair
Message-ID: <3AA7BD57.634B14FF@farc.org>


D. (1) AGENDA ITEM. REQUEST FOR REVISION OF UNIFORM REGULATIONS TO
REQUIRE THE REMOVAL OF LEG HAIR ON FEMALE MARINES IF SUCH HAIR IS
VISIBLE.
(2) DISCUSSION. THE UNIFORM BOARD RECOMMENDED THAT THE FOLLOWING
GROOMING REGULATION POLICY BE INCLUDED IN CHAPTER 1 OF THE UNIFORM
REGS: "NO FEMALE MARINE WILL BE REQUIRED TO REMOVE LEG HAIR EXCEPT
WHERE CONSIDERED UNSIGHTLY AND CANNOT BE COVERED WITH APPROPRIATE
HOSIERY AS DESCRIBED IN SUBPARAGRAPH 3027.5."
(3) CMC DECISION. APPROVED.

http://www.usmc.mil/almars/almararc.nsf/ab422d0547928f548525683900589a0d/9c3d36d73d174b898525683800535c2d?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,352%2F96




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Thu Mar  8 07:34:12 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:34:12 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test to the Sirs
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6cc96b271f0@[207.111.241.100]>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEIKCFAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Tim May said:
> As for Aimee's posts, I've seen nothing of substance. I've seen her, 
> or it, post a bunch of trolls, a lot of spam, some kind of 
> "Cypherpunks I.Q. Test" junk, and some plaintive squeals about how 
> the List doesn't appreciate the natterings of a confused, 
> PMS-stricken, impoverished Texas shyster.

Don't call me _confused_. 

And, don't call _me_ confused.

-Aimee




From bear at sonic.net  Thu Mar  8 10:45:50 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:45:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Denial of Service Attack on Cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103081042180.5713-100000@bolt.sonic.net>



Okay, majordomo at the node I subscribed to still lists me when 
I do a "who cypherpunks", but I haven't recieved any messages 
from cpunx for 3 days - not even spam! - Which is clearly wrong. 

Also, there is nothing new in the web archive for the period. 

Hence, this message.  If it doesn't land back in my inbox, that 
will tell me something about the problem.  If on the other hand 
the distribution is working, perhaps someone who knows something 
can tell me something else about the problem. 

				Bear




From codehead at ix.netcom.com  Thu Mar  8 12:36:30 2001
From: codehead at ix.netcom.com (codehead at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 12:36:30 -0800
Subject: abs@squig.org
In-Reply-To: <20010308051022.22913.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <200103082038.PAA04268@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


"Alex B. Shepardsen" <abs at squig.org> wrote:
> 
> Does this list have any male members who aren't misogynists? Sheesh.
> Aimee's post seems to have flushed them out of the woodwork.
> 
> Alexandra

You are confusing misogyny with insufferance for fools and trolls.

The nominal purpose of the cypherpunks list is to discuss 
cryptography, privacy, and social issues relating to them.  Ms. Farr 
has done pitifully little of that, instead choosing to introduce silly 
"gender correctness" tests and the like.  In spite of Ms. Farr's "I 
am a cypherpunk" statement, she doesn't appear to "get" the 
rudiments as reproduced below.

I suppose it's to be expected from someone who got her bachelor's 
in "environmental studies" (Baylor, 1993) and then went on to a law 
degree.  It can take a long time to repair the damage from such 
indoctrination.

Alexandra, what you're interpreting as misogyny is merely 
contempt for anything that smacks of stupidity and political 
correctness.  When the people on this list--some of whom *are* 
female--treat an equally clueless male in a similar fashion (and 
there have been many, many instances of this), why do you not 
then complain about misandry?

Despite some politically correct ideas to the contrary, defending 
women who are clueless simply because they are female does 
_not_ help the status of women.  To the contrary, it degrades those 
who do have a clue, forcing them into the same category with the 
inept.  If you want to see a level playing field in terms of equality of 
opportunity, lumping all women together into one lowest-common-
denominator class will not achieve that.  Neither will making knee-
jerk accusations of "misogyny" when somebody makes a fool of 
herself and is called on it.

Frankly, Alexandra, Ms. Farr was given considerably more latitude 
than most men on the list ever see.  Even Tim May was quite civil 
to her for an unusually generous period after her initial tortured-
English introduction.  Rather kid-glove treatment, I'd say, for a list 
that has a well-known reputation of being tough on bullshit.  
Perhaps you should accuse at least some of the men on the list of 
"excessive gynophilia" instead.  That makes about as much sense.

Emily Sandblade

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date sent:      	Sat, 1 Feb 1997 06:19:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject:        	Welcome to cypherpunks

Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were 
more of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy 
must create it for themselves and not expect governments, 
corporations, or other large, faceless organizations to grant them 
privacy out of beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have 
been creating their own privacy for centuries with whispers, 
envelopes, closed doors, and couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek 
to prevent other people from speaking about their experiences or 
their opinions.  

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. 
To encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with 
weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. 
Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how 
best to defend it.  

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks 
wish to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make 
more of it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make 
social structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and 
how to defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make 
good cryptosystems.  

Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key 
cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and 
pseudonymous mail forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with 
DC-nets.  They love to play with secure communications of all 
kinds.  

Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write 
code to defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to 
write it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow 
cypherpunks may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize 
that security is not built in a day and are patient with incremental 
progress.  

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks 
know that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.  

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.




From mischief at lanesbry.com  Wed Mar  7 17:40:34 2001
From: mischief at lanesbry.com (Ralph Wallis)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 12:40:34 +1100
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ Test #0 to the Sirs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103071605330.17077-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>; from abs@squig.org on Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:15:08PM -0800
References: <3a1cd8c4110c4cc302968e5a19f4d587@noisebox.remailer.org> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103071605330.17077-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>
Message-ID: <20010308124034.A86322@lanesbry.com>


On Wednesday, 07 Mar 2001 at 16:15, Alex B. Shepardsen <abs at squig.org> wrote:
> Does this list have any male members who aren't misogynists? Sheesh.
> Aimee's post seems to have flushed them out of the woodwork.
> 
> Alexandra

Cypherpunks IQ Test #0:

Someone, purporting to be a woman, posts a series of questions
and rejoinders to cypherpunks. Do you:

a) beat your alpha-male chest for the attention of this beautiful
   young woman;
b) woo her/impress your friends with witty responses;
c) say "oh no, not again!";
d) Assume it is John Young turned Detweiler;
e) Try to work out who's behind it;
f) sotto voce "cypherpunks who answer silly tests need shooting"
or
g) all of the above, at various times.




From decoy at iki.fi  Thu Mar  8 03:04:51 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:04:51 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ test
In-Reply-To: <200103071429.f27ETXu28659@choice.drlogick.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103081304100.24029-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, How stupid do I look wrote:

>> Ms. Farr is unquestionably an AI.  Please do not feed the Markov chains.
>
>But how can you really tell?

She/it seems to be failing Turing, no?

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university





From decoy at iki.fi  Thu Mar  8 03:04:51 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:04:51 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ test
In-Reply-To: <200103071429.f27ETXu28659@choice.drlogick.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103081304100.24029-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >


On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, How stupid do I look wrote:

>> Ms. Farr is unquestionably an AI.  Please do not feed the Markov chains.
>
>But how can you really tell?

She/it seems to be failing Turing, no?

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar  8 11:27:41 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:27:41 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Career - Is your PDA a pian to typ on? - March 7, 2001
Message-ID: <3AA7DD2D.5E223E86@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/goodgadgetry/03/07/typos/index.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar  8 11:32:35 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:32:35 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Peer-to-Peer Copyright Issues
Message-ID: <3AA7DE53.24BDFB6B@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/08/1732250.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From allyn at well.com  Thu Mar  8 13:33:32 2001
From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:33:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: test case for HavenCo?
In-Reply-To: <20010308161812.A18928@atreides.havenco.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103081333150.1748-100000@well.com>



How about personal stories? Like our dreams?

Mark





From rodney at tillerman.to  Thu Mar  8 14:04:14 2001
From: rodney at tillerman.to (Rodney Thayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:04:14 -0800
Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting
  Announcement
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010308135541.031caeb0@127.0.0.1>

See http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html
for SF, Toronto, & Bangalore Cypherpunks announcements.


SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement

General Info:

DATE:   Saturday 8 March 2001
TIME:   12:00 - 5:30 PM (Pacific Time)
PLACE:  Alpine Inn (aka Alpine Beer Garden)
         3915 Alpine Road, Portola Valley, CA 94028 USA

Agenda
    "Our agenda is a widely-held secret."
At Noon, we mill around for a bit: the organized program begins about 1:00 pm.
As usual, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited.

TECHNICAL TRACK


      .xxx domains and a W-Washington update --  Declan McCullagh

      Declan will hold forth on his recent work opposing the creation of
      a .xxx top-level domain.  Also, he'll give an update on what 'W'
      seems to be up to in Washington, vis a vis export, network security,
      e-commerce, and anything else we can convince him to talk about.

      PKCS #11 application development: Project 'Minow' -- Rodney Thayer

      Rodney will talk about his recent adventures in the world of PKCS #11
      tokens.  He's been developing a set of tools to work with various
      kinds of key storage devices, including the iButton.

POLICY TRACK

      Open discussion on TLD's, new.net, etc.

CONFERENCE TRACK:

      Our brethern and sistern are off in snowy Boston freezing there
      encrypted key material off.  We'll have an update next time, hopefully.

NOTE NOTE NOTE:
      Next month's meeting will be the Saturday BEFORE the RSA Conference,
      the 7th, that's the FIRST Saturday of the month, following the
      canonical standard nonstandard algorithm change for RSA Conference
      month.

Location

    Alpine Inn, Portola Valley

    Just behind Palo Alto toward the ocean. Take the Alpine Road exit off 280
    heading away from the flatlands for a few miles until you see Arastradero
    Rd on your left - and it's right on that corner.

    For lo these many moons - the flotsam, jetsam, bikers, movers, shakers,
    VC's and horsemen of the Bay Area have mooted at this historic location.
    Many a standard (ISO, ANSI, IEEE, RFC, et al) has been hammered out there
    on the carved up tabletops - lubricated by burgers and beer.

    We meet at the tables out the back door and to the right.

    (In case that wasn't clear, it's a BEER GARDEN.  Has food too -- burgers,
    etc.)

Location Maps:

http://yp9.superpages.com/listings.phtml?SRC=&STYPE=S&PG=L&R=N&C=&N=alpine+inn&T=portola+valley&S=CA&search=Find+It&pow=0&rtd=yp10.superpages.com


If you have questions, comments or last-minute agenda requests, please
contact the meeting organizer/victim:
Rodney Thayer rodney at tillerman.to +1 408 757 9693





From bear at sonic.net  Thu Mar  8 14:05:40 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:05:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: OK, which node is down? [WAS: Re: Denial of Service Attack on
 Cypherpunks?]
In-Reply-To: <20010309065410.E44018@lanesbry.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103081404200.14823-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Ralph Wallis wrote:

>I received this through minder.net, but I'm subscribed through
>several nodes. (I only drop some nodes that have "Errors-To"
>set up to send bounces from other nodes back to the list.)
>
>On Thursday, 08 Mar 2001 at 10:45, Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Okay, majordomo at the node I subscribed to still lists me when 
>
>which node?
>

I am subscribed through cyberpass.net and sirius.infonex.com. 

Both quit sending me messages about three days ago. 


				Bear





From rodney at tillerman.to  Thu Mar  8 14:41:30 2001
From: rodney at tillerman.to (Rodney Thayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:41:30 -0800
Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting
  Announcement
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010308144051.009de070@127.0.0.1>


See http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html
for SF, Toronto, & Bangalore Cypherpunks announcements.


SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement

General Info:

DATE:   Saturday 8 March 2001
TIME:   12:00 - 5:30 PM (Pacific Time)
PLACE:  Alpine Inn (aka Alpine Beer Garden)
	3915 Alpine Road, Portola Valley, CA 94028 USA

Agenda
    "Our agenda is a widely-held secret."
At Noon, we mill around for a bit: the organized program begins about 1:00 pm.
As usual, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited.

TECHNICAL TRACK


      .xxx domains and a W-Washington update --  Declan McCullagh

      Declan will hold forth on his recent work opposing the creation of
      a .xxx top-level domain.  Also, he'll give an update on what 'W'
      seems to be up to in Washington, vis a vis export, network security,
      e-commerce, and anything else we can convince him to talk about.

      PKCS #11 application development: Project 'Minow' -- Rodney Thayer

      Rodney will talk about his recent adventures in the world of PKCS #11
      tokens.  He's been developing a set of tools to work with various
      kinds of key storage devices, including the iButton.

POLICY TRACK

      Open discussion on TLD's, new.net, etc.

CONFERENCE TRACK:

      Our brethern and sistern are off in snowy Boston freezing there
      encrypted key material off.  We'll have an update next time, hopefully.

NOTE NOTE NOTE:
      Next month's meeting will be the Saturday BEFORE the RSA Conference,
      the 7th, that's the FIRST Saturday of the month, following the
      canonical standard nonstandard algorithm change for RSA Conference
      month.

Location

    We meet at the tables out the back door and to the right.

    Food and beverages are available at the cafe inside Tresidder.

    For lo these many moons - the flotsam, jetsam, bikers, movers, shakers,
    VC's and horsemen of the Bay Area have mooted at this historic location.
    Many a standard (ISO, ANSI, IEEE, RFC, et al) has been hammered out there
    on the carved up tabletops - lubricated by burgers and beer.

    (In case that wasn't clear, it's a BEER GARDEN.  Has food too -- burgers,
    etc.)

    Just behind Palo Alto toward the ocean. Take the Alpine Road exit off 280
    heading away from the flatlands for a few miles until you see Arastradero
    Rd on your left - and it's right on that corner.


Location Maps:

http://yp9.superpages.com/listings.phtml?SRC=&STYPE=S&PG=L&R=N&C=&N=alpine+inn&T=portola+valley&S=CA&search=Find+It&pow=0&rtd=yp10.superpages.com



If you have questions, comments or last-minute agenda requests, please
contact the meeting organizer/victim:
Rodney Thayer rodney at tillerman.to +1 408 757 9693




From adam at cypherspace.org  Thu Mar  8 10:51:40 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:51:40 -0400
Subject: DeCSS in perl -- test vectors?
Message-ID: <20010308145140.A87951@cypherpunks.ai>


Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz implemented DeCSS in perl.

	http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/qrpff-fast.pl

There is some description of using it here:

	http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/

Does anyone have test vectors for DeCSS.  If one had a DVD player and a
content scrambled DVD one could use the example they give:

% /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 | \
extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2dec -

Someone want to extract a few frames from a DVD and include the associated
plaintext for testing purposes.  I'd like to try reduce the size of the
program.

Adam




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Mar  8 15:19:00 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart home email)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:19:00 -0800
Subject: OK, which node is down? [WAS: Re: Denial of Service Attackon 
 Cypherpunks?]
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010308163133.5925H-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <3AA80AB2.2188A22F@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <3AA81364.8EFF1F62@pobox.com>


As far as I can tell, I've been receiving this discussion via
cyberpass.net,
so it must be ok....

		Bill

Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
>         I was subscribed to cyberpass.net, been gone for two days and
> came home to no cpunks mail. Subscribed to lne and it started flowing
> again.
>        Pretty weird -- even wierder is what happened to openpgp -- I was
> subscribed to that one, it went down, came back up, went down again and
> never a word from the owner since.




From ryan at havenco.com  Thu Mar  8 08:18:12 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:18:12 +0000
Subject: test case for HavenCo?
Message-ID: <20010308161812.A18928@atreides.havenco.com>


I'd like to set up a server at HavenCo personally to demonstrate our resistance
to foreign aggression.  These are the characteristics I'm looking for:

1) Something generally supported by individuals, especially network admins,
in the US and UK

2) Static content, relatively small, so as not to use more than, say, 256kbps
of bandwidth -- we've got 20-50mbps available, but since I'm paying for this
server out of my own pocket, I'd rather not pay excess bandwidth charges.

3) Easily explained to the average reporter, and something which the press
will generally support

4) Minimal support cost to me, if it's a service

5) Minimal need to interface with outside systems (no banking, etc.)

6) Interesting; pure piracy isn't really all that interesting, US exported
crypto would have been interesting back in the days of ITAR, but is
boring now.

Things I've thought of so far:

1) remailer: spam issues make it difficult to due a really good remailer, and
there are plenty already, but we're running one (on a shared box, so we'll
set up a new one later)

2) OpenNap: the fairtunes.com guy seems to be doing this.

3) DeCSS: probably good, although it seems to not provoke a terribly big
response from "The Enemy".  I'd be up for hosting an active server which
returned keys per DVD, so it's a bit more threatening than just static
decss code.

4) Info on circumvention of some major copyright system, like satellite tv
(this is kind of boring, and blatant piracy doesn't have much redeeming
social value.

I'd be interested in any other suggestions.

-- 
Ryan Lackey 				ryan at havenco.com
CTO, HavenCo Ltd.			
the free world just milliseconds away	www.havenco.com
OpenPGP: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F








From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 14:24:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:24:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Denial of Service Attack on Cypherpunks?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103081042180.5713-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010308162358.5925C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



There's been planty of traffic. Want a date with a lawyer? :)

On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> 
> Okay, majordomo at the node I subscribed to still lists me when 
> I do a "who cypherpunks", but I haven't recieved any messages 
> from cpunx for 3 days - not even spam! - Which is clearly wrong. 
> 
> Also, there is nothing new in the web archive for the period. 
> 
> Hence, this message.  If it doesn't land back in my inbox, that 
> will tell me something about the problem.  If on the other hand 
> the distribution is working, perhaps someone who knows something 
> can tell me something else about the problem. 

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 14:32:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:32:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: OK, which node is down? [WAS: Re: Denial of Service Attack on Cypherpunks?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103081404200.14823-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010308163133.5925H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



I'm sending traffic to cyberpass.net and am not receiving bounces so it's
either getting into the node and black holing or else it's black holing
betwix here and there.

I'm not sending to infonex.com so I have zero data there.

On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> I am subscribed through cyberpass.net and sirius.infonex.com. 
> 
> Both quit sending me messages about three days ago. 

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Mar  8 14:42:49 2001
From: hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:42:49 -0600
Subject: OK, which node is down? [WAS: Re: Denial of Service Attackon 
 Cypherpunks?]
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010308163133.5925H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AA80AB2.2188A22F@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


        I was subscribed to cyberpass.net, been gone for two days and
came home to no cpunks mail. Subscribed to lne and it started flowing
again.
       Pretty weird -- even wierder is what happened to openpgp -- I was
subscribed to that one, it went down, came back up, went down again and
never a word from the owner since.




From declan at well.com  Thu Mar  8 13:57:45 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:57:45 -0500
Subject: The U.S. Department of Justice has served me with a subpoena
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010308165617.00a2ad90@mail.well.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 15:05:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:05:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting  Announcement
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010308144051.009de070@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010308170431.5925P-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Rodney Thayer wrote:

> See http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html
> for SF, Toronto, & Bangalore Cypherpunks announcements.

Somehow I missed getting this on the CDR homepage at SSZ. I've correct
that oversight on my part, sorry.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 15:18:43 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:18:43 -0600
Subject: FBI Chief's Appeal to Hackers
Message-ID: <3AA81353.85BC02F7@ssz.com>


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42310,00.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bmm at minder.net  Thu Mar  8 14:23:14 2001
From: bmm at minder.net (BMM)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:23:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: OK, which node is down? [WAS: Re: Denial of Service Attack on
 Cypherpunks?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103081404200.14823-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103081719580.19422-100000@waste.minder.net>


cypherpunks at cyberpass.net and cypherpunks at infonex.com are the same list.

I've been getting plenty of traffic via the minder, ssz, and lne nodes.

Thanks,

-Brian

On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Ralph Wallis wrote:
> 
> >I received this through minder.net, but I'm subscribed through
> >several nodes. (I only drop some nodes that have "Errors-To"
> >set up to send bounces from other nodes back to the list.)
> >
> >On Thursday, 08 Mar 2001 at 10:45, Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Okay, majordomo at the node I subscribed to still lists me when 
> >
> >which node?
> >
> 
> I am subscribed through cyberpass.net and sirius.infonex.com. 
> 
> Both quit sending me messages about three days ago. 
> 
> 
> 				Bear




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 15:34:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:34:15 -0600
Subject: Sort through FUD on Microsoft product activation
Message-ID: <3AA816F7.7A527041@ssz.com>


http://www.techrepublic.com/article.jhtml?id=r00220010308bot01.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 15:38:35 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:38:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: MS and it's activation code, a question...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010308173552.5925Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Why is MS licensing my hardware through their software?

What does a change in my motherboard have to do with the image of the
software on the hard drive? Why would adding a new hard drive or replacing
an existing one require MS's ok?

By purchasing MS products you are in effect selling them the rights to
your computer hardware.

I wonder if they'll pay the support bills?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sean at hastings.ai  Thu Mar  8 17:40:04 2001
From: sean at hastings.ai (Sean Hastings)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:40:04 -0800
Subject: test case for HavenCo?
In-Reply-To: <20010308161812.A18928@atreides.havenco.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJCJJJBIOBEAFOIDCKELMDBAA.sean@hastings.ai>


Ryan,

3) DeCSS: probably good, although it seems to not provoke a terribly big
response from "The Enemy".  I'd be up for hosting an active server which
returned keys per DVD, so it's a bit more threatening than just static
decss code.

Didn't we have an offer from someone who wanted to put DeCSS up and actually
pay for it? What happened to those guys? I certainly still think that DeCSS
is the best way to go with this.

--Sean Hastings
--mailto:sean at havenco.com
--http://www.havenco.com/
--vmsg/fax:1.800.why.sean





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 15:53:35 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:53:35 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | FBI: Massive MS Exploits Over Last Year (1M CC's - Yowzer!)
Message-ID: <3AA81B7F.E61EE09F@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/08/2310209.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Mar  8 10:37:58 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 18:37:58 -0000
Subject: Novidades em Livros
Message-ID: <008885838180831WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

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m> . 
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-------------- next part --------------
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 16:50:05 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 18:50:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting  Announcement
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010308135541.031caeb0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010308184855.5925U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



That's Declan for you, on one hand holds to be a proponent of individual
freedom and on the other trying to impose his twisted view of the worl on
others.

On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Rodney Thayer wrote:

>       .xxx domains and a W-Washington update --  Declan McCullagh
> 
>       Declan will hold forth on his recent work opposing the creation of
>       a .xxx top-level domain.  Also, he'll give an update on what 'W'

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From aluger at hushmail.com  Thu Mar  8 19:14:28 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 19:14:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
Message-ID: <200103090315.TAA18466@user1.hushmail.com>

I think you should be a real pain in the ass.  Stick it to those pigs, right 
in the ear!

Hell, a few days in the pen on a comtempt charge would be a character builder 
even for YOU Declan.

You better brush up on your language skills first though.  Try: http://dictionary.prisonwall.org/

After all you'll want to know what to do when word comes down that you're 
going to be "Dressed Out."

Good luck!

At Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:52:14 -0500, Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> wrote:

>
>See:
>
>http://squid.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=28&PART=50&SECTION=10&TYPE=TEXT
>
>  They say:
>
>  "(c) Negotiations with the media shall be pursued in all
>  cases in which a subpoena to a member of the news media is
>  contemplated.
>  and
>  "All reasonable attempts should be made to obtain information from
>  alternative sources before considering issuing a subpoena to a member
>  of the news media
>  and
>  "No subpoena may be issued to any member of the news media or for 
>the
>  telephone toll records of any member of the news media without the
>  express authorization of the Attorney General
>
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

From mischief at lanesbry.com  Thu Mar  8 01:08:05 2001
From: mischief at lanesbry.com (Ralph Seberry)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:08:05 +1100
Subject: abs@squig.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103072329400.17584-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>; from abs@squig.org on Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:30:13PM -0800
References: <20010308051022.22913.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0103072329400.17584-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>
Message-ID: <20010308200805.C30241@lanesbry.com>


On Wednesday, 07 Mar 2001 at 23:30, Alex B. Shepardsen <abs at squig.org> wrote:
> So we're posting classified ads to cypherpunks now?

classifieds ads in cypherpunks should be pgp signed so they're
non repudiable.




From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Thu Mar  8 19:40:20 2001
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:40:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cypherpunks IQ test
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103081304100.24029-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10103082139430.6123-100000@cavern.uark.edu>


But that's just what we would say if we were failing.

On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> 
> She/it seems to be failing Turing, no?




From announce at microcapmonitor.com  Thu Mar  8 21:48:41 2001
From: announce at microcapmonitor.com (announce at microcapmonitor.com)
Date: Thu Mar  8 21:48:41 2001
Subject: News out after the bell...
Message-ID: <200103090349.VAA82322@microcapmonitor.com>

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From announce at microcapmonitor.com  Thu Mar  8 21:48:41 2001
From: announce at microcapmonitor.com (announce at microcapmonitor.com)
Date: Thu Mar  8 21:48:41 2001
Subject: News out after the bell...
Message-ID: <200103090349.VAA82326@microcapmonitor.com>

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From declan at well.com  Thu Mar  8 18:52:14 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:52:14 -0500
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010308215118.00ac3920@mail.well.com>


See:

http://squid.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=28&PART=50&SECTION=10&TYPE=TEXT

  They say:

  "(c) Negotiations with the media shall be pursued in all
  cases in which a subpoena to a member of the news media is
  contemplated.
  and
  "All reasonable attempts should be made to obtain information from
  alternative sources before considering issuing a subpoena to a member
  of the news media
  and
  "No subpoena may be issued to any member of the news media or for the
  telephone toll records of any member of the news media without the
  express authorization of the Attorney General




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 20:17:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:17:10 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Single-Atom Transistor
Message-ID: <3AA85946.5018C32F@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/08/2112200.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




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Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:47:30 +0800
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 22:50:07 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:50:07 -0600
Subject: kuro5hin.org || In an open society, what should be a public record?
Message-ID: <3AA87D1F.D1FA08FB@ssz.com>


http://www.Kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/3/8/92135/38268

"When a man assumes a public trust, he should consider himself public
property"

                                                 Thomas Jefferson

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 22:56:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:56:21 -0600
Subject: The Times - Japan economy close to collapse
Message-ID: <3AA87E95.73C081A@ssz.com>


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-96565,00.html


-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 23:00:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 01:00:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: A question of magnitude?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010309005634.5925f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



What will happen when Japan collapses from economic ruin, Britian
collapses because of a biological disaster, China has a revolution based
on democracy, religion, and economic ruin from increased military budgets,
The US faces a rash of violent civil disobedience coupled with massive
economic slowdowns, and the EU collapses because of increased internal
strife?

It may not take 20 years...

Now who votes for a single world government?

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar  8 23:03:00 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 01:03:00 -0600
Subject: The Times - A human clone by years end
Message-ID: <3AA88024.2D48B61F@ssz.com>


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-96566,00.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Thu Mar  8 22:50:20 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 01:50:20 -0500 
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44389@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found enano porno.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Enanito si, pero con que
pedazo!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Fri Mar  9 06:53:47 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 06:53:47 -0800
Subject: arrgh
Message-ID: <75585d8fa7bc563caa742b491e57c129@melontraffickers.com>


Why was Jon Malkovich never charged with 'Threatening the life of a 
serving POTUS' for his role in In The Line Of Fire?  Clint Eastwood 
_specifically_ told him in response to a telephone threat that "[Y]ou 
could go to jail for saying that, even if you don't really mean it".

I thought there wasn't an exception for fantasy/fiction.  Malkovich 
isn't somehow 'connected' is he?


Cecil B. Demented, esq.

--
"Ask not for whom the bell tolls: it's probably just a process server."


On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:50:50 -0600 (CST) 'Bride of Chaotica' wrote:
>
> Or you could just go down to your local movie outlet and buy "Fight Club"
> where they describe how to make Nitro and Dynamite from basic soap. Then
> you could have the appropriate movie studio, producer, and (hell, go for
> broke) Brad Pitt to stand right along side of yourself.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 05:12:55 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:12:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting   Announcement
In-Reply-To: <3AA8BC5B.AE44149E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010309071108.5925i-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> You have a seriously wide definition of tyranny here! Try as I might, I

??? I never used the word or a synonym. Don't have a clue what the hell
you're talking about. The observation was about Declan and his
contradictory behaviour and views.

Better check you're meds...

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 05:31:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 07:31:37 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Quantum Computers - Scalability around the corner?
Message-ID: <3AA8DB39.EE01DAF@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/09/0146222.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From BF at farc.org  Fri Mar  9 07:36:09 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 07:36:09 -0800
Subject: Globalization turncoat spooks wanted in EU
Message-ID: <3AA8F868.9A2D69F3@farc.org>


Swedish secret service seeks informers: chief
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spynews/message/14488

From: C-afp at clari.net (AFP)
news:clari.world.europe.northern

Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 8:50:15 PST

   STOCKHOLM, March 7 (AFP) - The Swedish secret service is trying
to recruit informants among anti-globalisation activists in a bid to
spare EU meetings this spring from the kind of protest violence that
marred top-level gatherings in Seattle and Prague, media reported
Wednesday.
   Spy-master Jan Danielsson, head of the SAEPO secret service,
said the agency was looking for members of anti-globalisation groups
to feed police with inside information on planned protests at
several EU meetings to be held in Sweden.
   "It helps to have a source inside organisations in which SAEPO
is interested," he was quoted by newspapers as saying earlier on
television.
   "All secret services work this way. SAEPO has always done it. We
are trying to recruit people who we think will give us
information."
   Sweden, which currently holds the rotating EU presidency, is
scheduled to host a number of top-level meetings this year.
   These include two EU summits as well as other meetings of
finance ministers, foreign ministers and agriculture ministers.
   SAEPO has invited militants from the Greens environmental party
and the Attac association, which promotes a tax on financial
speculation to aid those in need, to provide information on their
groups' plans.
   Political movements such as "No to the EU" -- which groups
around 30 eurosceptic organisations -- and the former communist Left
Party have said they will stage "critical seminars" on the sidelines
of the EU meetings.
   Anti-globalisation protests have already managed to disrupt
gatherings such as the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland,
the EU summit in Nice, France, and the December 1999 global finance
and trade meetings in Seattle, Washington.

Copyright 2001 by Agence France-Presse (via ClariNet)




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 05:36:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 07:36:30 -0600
Subject: The Register - Intel (is that a infringement?) has dicks in vise
Message-ID: <3AA8DC5E.BD055784@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/17454.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From lvild at usa.net  Fri Mar  9 09:59:32 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 9 Mar 2001 09:59:32 PST
Subject: [A question of magnitude?]
Message-ID: <20010309175932.22795.qmail@nwcst315.netaddress.usa.net>


A world government will be as great an aberration
as the reasons brought forward for it's existence.


Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> What will happen when Japan collapses from economic ruin, Britian
> collapses because of a biological disaster, China has a revolution based
> on democracy, religion, and economic ruin from increased military budgets,
> The US faces a rash of violent civil disobedience coupled with massive
> economic slowdowns, and the EU collapses because of increased internal
> strife?
> 
> It may not take 20 years...
> 
> Now who votes for a single world government?
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>         Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
> 
>                                                        Locke
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Mar  9 07:03:47 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:03:47 -0500 
Subject: OK, which node is down? [WAS: Re: Denial of Service
  Attackon  Cypherpunks?]
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBF5@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


I received no postings from cyberpass from sometime Monday through
this morning. It seems to be back now.

Peter


> ----------
> From: 	Bill Stewart home email[SMTP:bill.stewart at pobox.com]
> 
> 
> As far as I can tell, I've been receiving this discussion via
> cyberpass.net,
> so it must be ok....
> 
> 		Bill
> 
> Harmon Seaver wrote:
> > 
> >         I was subscribed to cyberpass.net, been gone for two days and
> > came home to no cpunks mail. Subscribed to lne and it started flowing
> > again.
> >        Pretty weird -- even wierder is what happened to openpgp -- I was
> > subscribed to that one, it went down, came back up, went down again and
> > never a word from the owner since.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Mar  9 07:03:47 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:03:47 -0500 
Subject: OK, which node is down? [WAS: Re: Denial of Service Attackon 
	 Cypherpunks?]
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBF5@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


I received no postings from cyberpass from sometime Monday through
this morning. It seems to be back now.

Peter


> ----------
> From: 	Bill Stewart home email[SMTP:bill.stewart at pobox.com]
> 
> 
> As far as I can tell, I've been receiving this discussion via
> cyberpass.net,
> so it must be ok....
> 
> 		Bill
> 
> Harmon Seaver wrote:
> > 
> >         I was subscribed to cyberpass.net, been gone for two days and
> > came home to no cpunks mail. Subscribed to lne and it started flowing
> > again.
> >        Pretty weird -- even wierder is what happened to openpgp -- I was
> > subscribed to that one, it went down, came back up, went down again and
> > never a word from the owner since.
> 




From Jeff.Gordon at tigta.treas.gov  Fri Mar  9 07:13:02 2001
From: Jeff.Gordon at tigta.treas.gov (Gordon Jeff TIGTA)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:13:02 -0500 
Subject: Bell trial schedule
Message-ID: <mailman.374.1576007502.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

:
:

John

You will need to be present at the Tacoma Courthouse at 9:00am on Tuesday,
4/3/01.  We anticipate you will testify on Tuesday, but it may extend to
Wednesday 4/4/01, depending on the pace of the trial, so the return flight
should not be scheduled prior to 5pm on 4/4/01.  In order to be reimbursed
for travel, all travel arrangements need to be made through the Dru Mercer
at the US Attorney's office, (206) 553-7970.  Let me know if you have any
questions.

Jeff 

-----


From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Mar  9 07:15:00 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:15 -0500 
Subject: Bell trial schedule
Message-ID: <mailman.375.1576007502.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

:
:

Jeff,

Thanks for the information.

Could you find out if I can buy a transcript of my grand jury 
testimony before the trial? Robb London has not answered 
my three inquiries. The court reporters office told me it
can be released only with Robb's approval.

John






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Mar  9 07:18:10 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:18:10 -0500
Subject: Bell Trial Schedule
Message-ID: <200103091529.KAA18723@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>



From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Mar  9 10:59:33 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart home email)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:59:33 -0800
Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical MeetingAnnouncement
Message-ID: <3AA92815.7801F30D@pobox.com>


(Not sure if this got to the meetingpunks or cypherpunks lists;
sorry if it's a duplicate.)

See http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html
for SF, Toronto, & Bangalore Cypherpunks announcements.


SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement

General Info:

DATE:   Saturday 8 March 2001
TIME:   12:00 - 5:30 PM (Pacific Time)
PLACE:  Alpine Inn (aka Alpine Beer Garden)
         3915 Alpine Road, Portola Valley, CA 94028 USA

Agenda
    "Our agenda is a widely-held secret."
At Noon, we mill around for a bit: the organized program begins about
1:00 pm.
As usual, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited.

TECHNICAL TRACK


      .xxx domains and a W-Washington update --  Declan McCullagh

      Declan will hold forth on his recent work opposing the creation of
      a .xxx top-level domain.  Also, he'll give an update on what 'W'
      seems to be up to in Washington, vis a vis export, network
security,
      e-commerce, and anything else we can convince him to talk about.

      PKCS #11 application development: Project 'Minow' -- Rodney Thayer

      Rodney will talk about his recent adventures in the world of PKCS
#11
      tokens.  He's been developing a set of tools to work with various
      kinds of key storage devices, including the iButton.

POLICY TRACK

      Open discussion on TLD's, new.net, etc.

CONFERENCE TRACK:

      Our brethern and sistern are off in snowy Boston freezing there
      encrypted key material off.  We'll have an update next time,
hopefully.

NOTE NOTE NOTE:
      Next month's meeting will be the Saturday BEFORE the RSA
Conference,
      the 7th, that's the FIRST Saturday of the month, following the
      canonical standard nonstandard algorithm change for RSA Conference
      month.

Location

    Alpine Inn, Portola Valley

    Just behind Palo Alto toward the ocean. Take the Alpine Road exit
off 280
    heading away from the flatlands for a few miles until you see
Arastradero
    Rd on your left - and it's right on that corner.

    For lo these many moons - the flotsam, jetsam, bikers, movers,
shakers,
    VC's and horsemen of the Bay Area have mooted at this historic
location.
    Many a standard (ISO, ANSI, IEEE, RFC, et al) has been hammered out
there
    on the carved up tabletops - lubricated by burgers and beer.

    We meet at the tables out the back door and to the right.

    (In case that wasn't clear, it's a BEER GARDEN.  Has food too --
burgers,
    etc.)

Location Maps:

http://yp9.superpages.com/listings.phtml?SRC=&STYPE=S&PG=L&R=N&C=&N=alpine+inn&T=portola+valley&S=CA&search=Find+It&pow=0&rtd=yp10.superpages.com


If you have questions, comments or last-minute agenda requests, please
contact the meeting organizer/victim:
Rodney Thayer rodney at tillerman.to +1 408 757 9693




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Mar  9 03:19:55 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 11:19:55 +0000
Subject: CDR: Re: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting   Announcement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010308184855.5925U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AA8BC5B.AE44149E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>

Jim, 

You have a seriously wide definition of tyranny here! Try as I might, I
have trouble seeing how arguing  in public against a proposal you
disagree with is "trying to impose".  If Declan went round to .xxx
people and locked them in jail till they gave up - *that* might be
incompatible with being a proponent of individual freedom. But speaking
to some people in a bar? 

Ken Brown

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> That's Declan for you, on one hand holds to be a proponent of individual
> freedom and on the other trying to impose his twisted view of the worl on
> others.
> 
> On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Rodney Thayer wrote:
> 
> >       .xxx domains and a W-Washington update --  Declan McCullagh
> >
> >       Declan will hold forth on his recent work opposing the creation of
> >       a .xxx top-level domain.  Also, he'll give an update on what 'W'




From sean at hastings.ai  Fri Mar  9 11:26:42 2001
From: sean at hastings.ai (Sean Hastings)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:26:42 -0800
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010308215118.00ac3920@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJCJJJBIOBEAFOIDCMEMCDBAA.sean@hastings.ai>


Declan,

What are the qualifications one has to meet to be considered a "member of
the news media"? Does one have to work for some sort of Registered news
agency, or publish in a registered periodical? I am publishing this right
now, but I probably don't qualify. Why not?

Also:

Are they going to pay for your travel and lodgings? If so, it sounds more
like a great opportunity than a problem. Not that I won't enjoy hearing you
bitch about it. ;-)

--Sean Hastings
--mailto:sean at havenco.com
--vmsg/fax:1.800.why.sean


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 6:52 PM
> To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
> Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
>
>
>
> See:
>
>
http://squid.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=28&PART=50&SECTION=10
&TYPE=TEXT
>
>   They say:
>
>   "(c) Negotiations with the media shall be pursued in all
>   cases in which a subpoena to a member of the news media is
>   contemplated.
>   and
>   "All reasonable attempts should be made to obtain information from
>   alternative sources before considering issuing a subpoena to a member
>   of the news media
>   and
>   "No subpoena may be issued to any member of the news media or for the
>   telephone toll records of any member of the news media without the
>   express authorization of the Attorney General
>
>




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Fri Mar  9 11:31:44 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:31:44 -0800
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
Message-ID: <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 683 bytes
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URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/20010309/07d272f7/attachment.bin>

From Robb.London at usdoj.gov  Fri Mar  9 08:27:43 2001
From: Robb.London at usdoj.gov (London, Robb)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:27:43 -0400
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <"USAWAWML01-010309162743Z-37012*/PRMD=USDOJ/ADMD= /C=US/"@MHS>


Attorney General Ashcroft personally approved your subpoena, and that of another reporter who published admissions by James Dalton Bell.  

The Government is not seeking any source material, notes, or other unpublished material from you by virtue of this subpoena.  The limited purpose of the subpoena is to have you review two of your published articles, acknowledge your authorship, review several of the statements which you attributed to Bell in your articles, and have you verify that he in fact told you those things.  That's all.  We're only interested in having you testify about statements of his that you published.  If your subpoena could have been avoided, it would have been.  Unfortunately, the Federal Rules of Evidence do not permit a news article to be admitted into evidence for these purposes unless the person who wrote it can attest to its authorship and the accuracy of its content.  This must be done in open court, at trial, and cannot be accomplished by affidavit, unless the defendant is willing to stipulate that your appearance can be avoided and that your articles can be admitted into evidence witho!
ut your appearance as a foundation witness.  Mr. Bell is not interested in any such stipulations.  I regret any inconvenience that a trip to Tacoma may cause.  

I am extremely sensitive to the intrusiveness of any subpoena and the potential negative impact that press subpoenas can have on the news gathering function.  The subpoena that has been served on you, is, in my experience, as minimally intrusive as any such subpoena can be.

Robb London
Assistant United States Attorney
Western District of Washington




From Robb.London at usdoj.gov  Fri Mar  9 08:27:43 2001
From: Robb.London at usdoj.gov (London, Robb)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:27:43 -0400
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <"USAWAWML01-010309162743Z-37012*/PRMD=USDOJ/ADMD=
  /C=US/"@MHS>


Attorney General Ashcroft personally approved your subpoena, and that of another reporter who published admissions by James Dalton Bell.  

The Government is not seeking any source material, notes, or other unpublished material from you by virtue of this subpoena.  The limited purpose of the subpoena is to have you review two of your published articles, acknowledge your authorship, review several of the statements which you attributed to Bell in your articles, and have you verify that he in fact told you those things.  That's all.  We're only interested in having you testify about statements of his that you published.  If your subpoena could have been avoided, it would have been.  Unfortunately, the Federal Rules of Evidence do not permit a news article to be admitted into evidence for these purposes unless the person who wrote it can attest to its authorship and the accuracy of its content.  This must be done in open court, at trial, and cannot be accomplished by affidavit, unless the defendant is willing to stipulate that your appearance can be avoided and that your articles can be admitted into evidence witho!
ut!
 your appearance as a foundation witness.  Mr. Bell is not interested in any such stipulations.  I regret any inconvenience that a trip to Tacoma may cause.  

I am extremely sensitive to the intrusiveness of any subpoena and the potential negative impact that press subpoenas can have on the news gathering function.  The subpoena that has been served on you, is, in my experience, as minimally intrusive as any such subpoena can be.

Robb London
Assistant United States Attorney
Western District of Washington




From synergos at mail.com  Fri Mar  9 09:55:57 2001
From: synergos at mail.com (synergos at mail.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 01 12:55:57 EST
Subject: "Voted #1 Online Business"
Message-ID: <200103091707.BAA19154@sues.edu.cn>


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Liang W. Chu





From axlotl at hushmail.com  Fri Mar  9 14:00:38 2001
From: axlotl at hushmail.com (axlotl at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:00:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
Message-ID: <200103092205.OAA27922@user3.hushmail.com>


>It was a polite and reasonable post.  I think it's cool that he did
>that, and what he said makes sense.  Now I guess I'm an assistant
>attorney apologist apologist....

While the message used polite words, its implications and usage was not 
polite, especially in the context of threats made to Adam Ciralsky, a 60 
Minutes reporter re a subpoena for his notes if the reporter continued to 
ask questions about the upcoming trial, and especially not in its implications 
for other cypherpunks who might  be interested in talking to the press -
 or on the list - regarding CJ, JB, or AP. (see <http://cryptome.org/jdb-
doj-cbs.htm>)

The message is clear - if you monkey around with this stuff, expect to be 
dragged across the country a few times on short notice, threatened with 
perjury or other charges, and otherwise intimidated and inconvenienced until 
you stop thinking and talking about feds who get promotions and publicity 
by prosecuting an itinerant musician/author living out of his pickup truck 
and a 40-year old man who still lives with his parents and plays with stink 
bombs.




From terrytalks5 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  9 14:02:21 2001
From: terrytalks5 at hotmail.com (Terry Sullivan)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Here is the information you had requested on low cost International Long Distance
Message-ID: <200103092202.OAA07529@toad.com>


Hello  

    Here is the information you had requested.
 On low cost international long distance. 

  There is no need to switch your present 
 Long Distance Carrier.     

  We have a few plans to choose from.
 Our best rates (Call4Cents)

       Click here to compare rates:

 http://www.worldxchange.com/agent/call4cents.asp?agid=210155 


                           Terry Sullivan
                          1(800)941-2709
  
 PS: If there was a mistake and you do not want this
    information I appologise.If you click below I will 
    make sure you will not receive any more.
                                     
                                        Thanks!                        

To stop additional follow up messages click below:
http://www.aweber.com/r.php?i=freetalk&e=cypherpunks%40toad.com




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Mar  9 13:22:16 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:22:16 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | NSA Linux In Depth
Message-ID: <3AA94988.578E9FFA@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/09/1810249.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Fri Mar  9 12:56:16 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:56:16 -0500 
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4438B@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found joke.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From bounce-stocknight-373127 at lyris.stocknight.com  Fri Mar  9 16:16:55 2001
From: bounce-stocknight-373127 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:16:55 -0800
Subject: Stocknight- After Market Edition
Message-ID: <LYRIS-373127-258-2001.03.09-16.24.24--cypherpunks#cyberpass.net@lyris.stocknight.com>


[Stocknight.com]                                                 [Image]
[Image]

  Issue 2                                                March 9, 2001

   Today's Issue                                              [Image]

   The NASDAQ stumbled to a 27 month low Friday, driven in party by a
   nasty earnings warning by chip maker Intel. The Nasdaq composite
   index dropped 115.88, or just over 5 percent, to  2,052.85 during
   Friday's session, it's lowest level since Dec. 17, 1998. The DOW
   was battered too, falling 213.63, or almost 2 percent, to
   10,644.62 managing somehow to stay up 1.7 percent for the week.

   CNNfn stated in an article published Friday, that  "analysts said
   investors do not need to run for the hills in a panic." despite
   the bloodbath in the tech sector quoting Seth Martin, an analyst
   with IDEAglobal.com as saying, "I think stocks really are near
   their lows at this point and I think investors are
   bargain-oriented right now. They believe in some sort of comeback
   by the end of this year so if you believe in that, you have to
   like stocks at these prices."

   We'll see on Monday as earnings statements continue to be
   released.

   Breaking News                                              [Image]

   At StockNight we prefer to publish news in our Breaking News
   section that truly is "Hot off the Press." When at all possible we
   try and work with news that has been released after the marker's
   close or late in the trading day.

   Today, at roughly 22 minutes after Friday's market close
   Saf-T-Hammer (otcbb: SAFH) issued a statement that many of our
   readers will undoubtedly find interesting given the tragic school
   shooting of this week.

   Here is part of the release:

         Saf-T-Hammer Responds to Child Safety Lock Legislation

   SCOTTSDALE, Ariz.--March 9, 2001--Saf-T-Hammer Corp. (OTCBB: SAFH
   - news), the Scottsdale-based firearm safety and security company
   today responded to the efforts of Wisconsin U.S. Sen. Herb Kohl's
   March 1 reintroduction of the Child Safety Lock legislation he
   authored.

   Sen. Kohl has also authored the Youth Handgun Safety Act of 1994
   and the Gun-Free School Zone Act, which makes it a federal crime
   to knowingly bring a gun within 1,000 feet of a school or to fire
   a gun in these zones.

   ``We are watching this legislation closely,'' said Robert Scott,
   president of Saf-T-Hammer. ``There is a continuing, growing
   awareness of the need for firearm safety solutions. The recent
   school shooting in San Diego tragically brought the issue to the
   nation's attention again.''

   The ``Child Safety Lock Act of 2001'' reintroduced into the Senate
   last week under Senate Bill S 436, calls for safer keeping of
   firearms including the requirement of child handgun safety locks
   included in every sale and transfer of a handgun.

   ``All firearm owners, most of whom act extremely responsibly, have
   an obligation to store and secure their firearms in a manner to
   prevent unauthorized access,'' said Scott. ``The gun safety locks
   manufactured by our company have proven to be effective,
   inexpensive and easy to use.''

   The bill would be an amendment to chapter 44 of title 18, U.S.
   Code and is co-sponsored by Sen. Barbara Boxer, Sen. Jon Corzine,
   Sen. John F. Kerry, Sen. Charles E. Schumer, Sen. Lincoln D.
   Chafee, Sen. Richard J. Durbin and Sen. Jack Reed.

   Polls show that between 75 and 80 percent of the American public,
   including gun owners, favor the mandatory sale of child safety
   locks with guns. In addition, according to public reports from
   last year's campaign, President Bush indicated he supports the
   idea of mandatory child safety locks and would sign a bill that
   required the sale of a child safety lock with all new handguns.

   Attorney General Ashcroft confirmed the Bush administration
   supports the mandatory sale of child safety locks during his
   Senate confirmation hearings earlier this year. Each year,
   teenagers and children are involved in more than 10,000 accidental
   shootings in which close to 800 people die. In addition, every
   year 1,300 children usefirearms to commit suicide. ``The need is
   definite and real,'' said Scott.

   Please click here  to read the remainder of this release:
   http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010309/0231.html

   Disclaimer:
   StockNight.com is owned by Integrity Media Inc. (IMI) and
   associated with Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated
   (MP).  The information, opinions and analysis contained herein are
   based on sources believed to be reliable but no representation,
   expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or
   correctness.  This report is for information purposes only and
   should not be used as the basis for any investment decision.  As
   compensation for dissemination and posting of this information,
   Saf-T-Hammer will pay MP $5,000 which will be split with IMI.  An
   owner of Integrity Media Inc. also owns and holds shares of
   Saf-T_Hammer (60,000) for services rendered past and present but
   unrelated to this distibution. Market Pathways also serves as
   Investor Relations for Saf-T-Hammer and is compensated at $4,000
   monthly and 87,000 share per year. MP currently holds 174,000
   shares of Saft-T-Hammer. ALL SHARES OWNED BY MARKET PATHWAYS AND
   INTEGRITY MEDIA INC. ARE RESTRICTED AT THIS TIME. This
   compensation constitutes a conflict of interest as to our ability
   to remain objective in our communication regarding the subject
   company.  Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by
   Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934.    MP, StockNight.com
   and Integrity Media and its owners, agents and employees are not
   an investment advisor and this report is not investment advice.
   This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to
   sell securities.  Information contained herein contains
   forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and
   uncertainties, which will affect the results.  The opinions
   contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to
   change without notice.  MP, Integrity Media and StockNight.com
   and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time
   may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned.
   It is the responsibility of the brokerage firm to verify “Blue
   Sky” status in each trading state.  Information contained herein
   may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express
   written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations
   Incorporated.


---
You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-373127P at lyris.stocknight.com
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From bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com  Fri Mar  9 16:16:55 2001
From: bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:16:55 -0800
Subject: Stocknight- After Market Edition
Message-ID: <LYRIS-163101-258-2001.03.09-16.24.24--cypherpunks#algebra.com@lyris.stocknight.com>


[Stocknight.com]                                                 [Image]
[Image]

  Issue 2                                                March 9, 2001

   Today's Issue                                              [Image]

   The NASDAQ stumbled to a 27 month low Friday, driven in party by a
   nasty earnings warning by chip maker Intel. The Nasdaq composite
   index dropped 115.88, or just over 5 percent, to  2,052.85 during
   Friday's session, it's lowest level since Dec. 17, 1998. The DOW
   was battered too, falling 213.63, or almost 2 percent, to
   10,644.62 managing somehow to stay up 1.7 percent for the week.

   CNNfn stated in an article published Friday, that  "analysts said
   investors do not need to run for the hills in a panic." despite
   the bloodbath in the tech sector quoting Seth Martin, an analyst
   with IDEAglobal.com as saying, "I think stocks really are near
   their lows at this point and I think investors are
   bargain-oriented right now. They believe in some sort of comeback
   by the end of this year so if you believe in that, you have to
   like stocks at these prices."

   We'll see on Monday as earnings statements continue to be
   released.

   Breaking News                                              [Image]

   At StockNight we prefer to publish news in our Breaking News
   section that truly is "Hot off the Press." When at all possible we
   try and work with news that has been released after the marker's
   close or late in the trading day.

   Today, at roughly 22 minutes after Friday's market close
   Saf-T-Hammer (otcbb: SAFH) issued a statement that many of our
   readers will undoubtedly find interesting given the tragic school
   shooting of this week.

   Here is part of the release:

         Saf-T-Hammer Responds to Child Safety Lock Legislation

   SCOTTSDALE, Ariz.--March 9, 2001--Saf-T-Hammer Corp. (OTCBB: SAFH
   - news), the Scottsdale-based firearm safety and security company
   today responded to the efforts of Wisconsin U.S. Sen. Herb Kohl's
   March 1 reintroduction of the Child Safety Lock legislation he
   authored.

   Sen. Kohl has also authored the Youth Handgun Safety Act of 1994
   and the Gun-Free School Zone Act, which makes it a federal crime
   to knowingly bring a gun within 1,000 feet of a school or to fire
   a gun in these zones.

   ``We are watching this legislation closely,'' said Robert Scott,
   president of Saf-T-Hammer. ``There is a continuing, growing
   awareness of the need for firearm safety solutions. The recent
   school shooting in San Diego tragically brought the issue to the
   nation's attention again.''

   The ``Child Safety Lock Act of 2001'' reintroduced into the Senate
   last week under Senate Bill S 436, calls for safer keeping of
   firearms including the requirement of child handgun safety locks
   included in every sale and transfer of a handgun.

   ``All firearm owners, most of whom act extremely responsibly, have
   an obligation to store and secure their firearms in a manner to
   prevent unauthorized access,'' said Scott. ``The gun safety locks
   manufactured by our company have proven to be effective,
   inexpensive and easy to use.''

   The bill would be an amendment to chapter 44 of title 18, U.S.
   Code and is co-sponsored by Sen. Barbara Boxer, Sen. Jon Corzine,
   Sen. John F. Kerry, Sen. Charles E. Schumer, Sen. Lincoln D.
   Chafee, Sen. Richard J. Durbin and Sen. Jack Reed.

   Polls show that between 75 and 80 percent of the American public,
   including gun owners, favor the mandatory sale of child safety
   locks with guns. In addition, according to public reports from
   last year's campaign, President Bush indicated he supports the
   idea of mandatory child safety locks and would sign a bill that
   required the sale of a child safety lock with all new handguns.

   Attorney General Ashcroft confirmed the Bush administration
   supports the mandatory sale of child safety locks during his
   Senate confirmation hearings earlier this year. Each year,
   teenagers and children are involved in more than 10,000 accidental
   shootings in which close to 800 people die. In addition, every
   year 1,300 children usefirearms to commit suicide. ``The need is
   definite and real,'' said Scott.

   Please click here  to read the remainder of this release:
   http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010309/0231.html

   Disclaimer:
   StockNight.com is owned by Integrity Media Inc. (IMI) and
   associated with Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated
   (MP).  The information, opinions and analysis contained herein are
   based on sources believed to be reliable but no representation,
   expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or
   correctness.  This report is for information purposes only and
   should not be used as the basis for any investment decision.  As
   compensation for dissemination and posting of this information,
   Saf-T-Hammer will pay MP $5,000 which will be split with IMI.  An
   owner of Integrity Media Inc. also owns and holds shares of
   Saf-T_Hammer (60,000) for services rendered past and present but
   unrelated to this distibution. Market Pathways also serves as
   Investor Relations for Saf-T-Hammer and is compensated at $4,000
   monthly and 87,000 share per year. MP currently holds 174,000
   shares of Saft-T-Hammer. ALL SHARES OWNED BY MARKET PATHWAYS AND
   INTEGRITY MEDIA INC. ARE RESTRICTED AT THIS TIME. This
   compensation constitutes a conflict of interest as to our ability
   to remain objective in our communication regarding the subject
   company.  Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by
   Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934.    MP, StockNight.com
   and Integrity Media and its owners, agents and employees are not
   an investment advisor and this report is not investment advice.
   This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to
   sell securities.  Information contained herein contains
   forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and
   uncertainties, which will affect the results.  The opinions
   contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to
   change without notice.  MP, Integrity Media and StockNight.com
   and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time
   may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned.
   It is the responsibility of the brokerage firm to verify “Blue
   Sky” status in each trading state.  Information contained herein
   may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express
   written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations
   Incorporated.


---
You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-163101P at lyris.stocknight.com
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From alan at clueserver.org  Fri Mar  9 16:17:06 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:17:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Slashdot | UCITA Fight Comes to Texas
In-Reply-To: <3AA96118.25AFAD69@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103091613540.1788-100000@clueserver.org>


On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/09/192214.shtml

UCITA is also being pushed in Oregon.  They bought higher up the food
chain here.

The person sponsoring the bill is in charge of the judical committee for
the Oregon Senate.

It is expected to be a tough fight.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From dakin at nationalpost.com  Fri Mar  9 13:25:11 2001
From: dakin at nationalpost.com (David Akin)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:25:11 -0500
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJCJJJBIOBEAFOIDCMEMCDBAA.sean@hastings.ai>
Message-ID: <NEBBKOODCMLJIAIIKLPGEEDAEJAC.dakin@nationalpost.com>




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net]On Behalf Of Sean Hastings
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 2:27 PM
> To: Declan McCullagh; cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
> Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Subject: RE: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
>
>
> Declan,
>
> What are the qualifications one has to meet to be considered a "member of
> the news media"? Does one have to work for some sort of Registered news
> agency, or publish in a registered periodical? I am publishing this right
> now, but I probably don't qualify. Why not?

Declan, as you may know, has had a helluva time getting Official Washington
to recognize him and other online news outlets as 'real' media, worthy of
the same media treatment and access to officials given to traditional print
and broadcast reporters. There are no qualifications you need and, in the US
and Canada, no licensing bureau or anything like that (thank god). If you
want to report on something, you just show up, call yourself a reporter and
see what the guy at the door says. At places like the White House, they'll
want to see some proof that you work for an outlet that they recognize as
'real news'. The definition held by the White House gatekeepers is probably
pretty restrictive. Go to the local stamp club exhibition, say you're a
reporter, and they won't care if/when you've ever written something. They're
just glad to have the interest.

So bottom line: You can call yourself a reporter when you act like one. Some
people think you gotta act like Sam Donaldson; others think you can act like
Hunter S. Thompson. Better yet, more people think you can like Kevin Poulsen
. . .

David Akin / Senior technology reporter
National Post / http://www.nationalpost.com
300-1450 Don Mills Road, Don Mills, Ontario
CANADA / M3B 3R5
VOX: 416.383.2372 FAX: 416.383.2443
dakin at nationalpost.com / AIM: DavidAkin

Click to add my contact info to your organizer:
http://my.infotriever.com/DavidAkin





From djb at gci.net  Fri Mar  9 17:28:37 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:28:37 -0900
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
References: <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com> <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com> <20010309211446.24170.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz> <200103092156.QAA20801@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20010309174929.B30583@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c0a901$6eabfb00$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


> I wonder if John Young is a journalist, and needs to have his
> subponea approved by John Ashcroft too...

I don't know John Young, but I've visited Cryptome and seen his postings
here.  I'd say he's a journalist by any reasonable standard.  Doubt the DoJ
agrees, though.

-- Daniel

=======================================================
The Law Office of Daniel J. Boone
326 Fourth Avenue, Suite B
Juneau, Alaska  99801
(907) 723-9902
djb at gci.net
=======================================================
"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe when the
legislature is in session."  -- Judge Gideon Tucker
=======================================================




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Mar  9 13:45:34 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:45:34 -0500
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
In-Reply-To: <20010309211446.24170.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
References: <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>
 <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <200103092156.QAA20801@barry.mail.mindspring.net>


Robb London is a polite person, so is Jeff Gordon. It's
what they do after you get comfortable with them that's 
not so polite. But it's always done in precise compliance
with the law, even if that means kissing your ass goodbye.

Gentlemen with guns are sweethearts if you obey them.

I guess I missed Declan's letter to Robb, and I don't see
it in the Inet archives. Anybody get a copy of it? Those
cc:s to cpunks in Robb's message surely came from 
Declan's letter, no? Or is Robb baiting hooks? 

Robb never sent me an ass-kissing-goodbye letter
like Declan's, but sent me only fuck-you subpoenas,
which may mean the same as Declan's, if Declan
believes what Robb wrote about only wanting
this and that, so sorry to inconvenience you.

Robb has a neat way of dropping an unexpected 
question on you just after warming you up with
spit. Sure, now, Declan does that pretty well himself.

Bet you a nickle Declan gets a chance to name
interviewees besides Bell, in response to a casual
probe from Rob, "oh, by the way, Mr. McCullagh, 
what did Bell tell you about Alice and Bob and
Charlie?"

The only good answer to the unexpected, as DF 
wrote years ago is "I want a lawyer." Even if you 
have one, get another, and not the one after your 
sweet ass with apologetic emails.






From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Fri Mar  9 16:47:37 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:47:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Robb Joins the Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <200103100047.f2A0lbI24137@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Robb London writes:

> Attorney General Ashcroft personally approved your subpoena, and that
> of another reporter who published admissions by James Dalton Bell.

I'm sure he did.

> The Government is not seeking any source material, notes, or other
> unpublished material from you by virtue of this subpoena.  The limited
> purpose of the subpo ena is to have you review two of your published
> articles, acknowledge your auth orship, review several of the statements
> which you attributed to Bell in your a rticles, and have you verify that
> he in fact told you those things.

What's always struck me as odd is that Declan, who I have said previously
seems to be spending far too much time eating at the King's table these
days, seems to delight in publishing outrageous self-incriminating quotes
from Bell, in lieu of any factual discussion of the issues raised by the
case.

I guess Declan must feel that as long as it's James Dalton Bell, and his
elderly parents, who are the only likely victims of the anal plungering
such comments engender, that it's great journalistic fun to put
"Cypherpunk Terrorist Vows Revenge" articles at the top of Wired News to
celebrate Bell's release from coercive mistreatment at the hands of the
state apparatus.

It is hardly surprising that these ill-chosen quotations resulted in a
subpoena, so that they may be presented as evidence of motive as the
government fabricates yet another laundry list of charges to hurl at Mr.
Bell, in its neverending quest to manufacture terrorists to frighten the
public with.

As I've also said in the past, absent the government's persecution of Mr.
Bell, AP would have been discussed briefly, like numerous other things on
the Cypherphnks list, and quickly forgotten.

The points Declan leaves out of his articles, and which I think are the
more germain ones, I listed briefly in an April, 1999 message after Bell's
first state-sponsored screwing.  John Gilmore also pointed out that a lot
of things people think are protected speech on Cypherpunks, actually
aren't when you examine the case law used against Bell and similar
defendants.

As I wrote...

<<The other thing I find interesting in this brief is the citing of case
law which seems to gut the First Amendment with regard to politically
motivated satire which discusses hypothetical violence against public
officials.  Indeed, while the statutes cited seem relatively
straightforward with regard to what constitutes a threat, cited case law
apparently permits the interpretation of a threat even if the defendant
had no means or intent to carry it out, it was not communicated to the
person allegedly targeted, and the person allegedly targeted would not
have regarded it as a threat.

<<So apparently, a non-threat can land you in jail as long as a ficticious
"reasonable person" invented by the court, completely unaware of the
context of the remark, can be hypothesized to have found it threatening in
some way, even if neither you nor the person alleged to be threatened
would have interpreted it in such a context.

<<Under such an interpretation, Bell's mock trials of public officials,
clearly designed as political theatre, could be considered criminal in the
complete absence any genuine intent to do harm to public officials, and in
the complete absence of any apprehension on the part of public officials
that they might be harmed, as long as some hypothetical non-existent
"reasonable person" could be deemed to have found the performance
"threatening." This seems to tread dangerously close to outlawing pure
political speech, which, according to the government, we do not need
anonymity for, because we live in a "free society.">>

It's would be real nice if Declan would someday write a Jim Bell article
which explored the above issues, and didn't just quote Jim on what he
intended to do to the pigfuckers next.

As for Treasury Agent Jeff Gordon using anti-stalking laws, originally
invented to protect terrified wives and girlfriends against psychotic ex's
intent on killing them, as his current excuse to drag Mr. Bell into court,
let me just say that I believe that my prior characterization of Mr.
Gordon as the "World's Biggest Pussy" is still both Constitutionally
protected and accurate.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From boards-register at yahoo-inc.com  Fri Mar  9 16:51:10 2001
From: boards-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:51:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Message Boards
Message-ID: <200103100051.f2A0pAa00594@e8.my.yahoo.com>


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 14:51:13 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:51:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <"USAWAWML01-010309162743Z-37012*/PRMD=USDOJ/ADMD= /C=US/"@MHS>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010309165107.5925k-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



I'd plead the 5th.

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, London, Robb wrote:

> Attorney General Ashcroft personally approved your subpoena, and that of another reporter who published admissions by James Dalton Bell.  
> 
> The Government is not seeking any source material, notes, or other unpublished material from you by virtue of this subpoena.  The limited purpose of the subpoena is to have you review two of your published articles, acknowledge your authorship, review several of the statements which you attributed to Bell in your articles, and have you verify that he in fact told you those things.  That's all.  We're only interested in having you testify about statements of his that you published.  If your subpoena could have been avoided, it would have been.  Unfortunately, the Federal Rules of Evidence do not permit a news article to be admitted into evidence for these purposes unless the person who wrote it can attest to its authorship and the accuracy of its content.  This must be done in open court, at trial, and cannot be accomplished by affidavit, unless the defendant is willing to stipulate that your appearance can be avoided and that your articles can be admitted into evidence wit!
hout your appearance as a foundation witness.  Mr. Bell is not interested in any such stipulations.  I regret any inconvenience that a trip to Tacoma may cause.  
> 
> I am extremely sensitive to the intrusiveness of any subpoena and the potential negative impact that press subpoenas can have on the news gathering function.  The subpoena that has been served on you, is, in my experience, as minimally intrusive as any such subpoena can be.
> 
> Robb London
> Assistant United States Attorney
> Western District of Washington
> 




From my-login-request at yahoo-inc.com  Fri Mar  9 16:51:29 2001
From: my-login-request at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:51:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Yahoo! Email Verification
Message-ID: <200103100051.QAA24449@e16.yahoo.com>


Hi, carbonmiranda

You recently were asked to verify your email address(es) with Yahoo!.  
You will receive one email per unverified address.
Please follow the instructions below to complete the verification process.

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 14:53:07 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:53:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Voted #1 Online Business"
In-Reply-To: <200103091707.BAA19154@sues.edu.cn>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010309165218.5925m-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



NO. You most definitely do not have my permission, as the owner of
ssz.com, to send anything to an ssz.com domain ever again.

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 synergos at mail.com wrote:

> Dear Friend,
> 
> May I have your permission to send you FREE information
> on an exciting and very profitable SELF-RUN online business?
> 
> It is truely the HOTTEST and the EASIEST home business today!
> Voted as the #1 online business in a major business magazine!
>  You can make up to $14,000 per month in your spare time!
> 
> This is not a chain letter, NOT an illegal get-rich-quick scam.  It is
> a legitimate online business which has been around for over FOUR YEARS!
> 
> This home business is for REAL!  NO HYPE!
> 
> Please click below to receive FREE VITAL INFORMATION:
> 
> synergos at usa.com
> 
> You'll be glad that you did!
> 
> Thank you and have a great day!
> 
> With My Warmest Regards,
> 
> Liang W. Chu
> 
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 14:55:43 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:55:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
In-Reply-To: <20010309211446.24170.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010309165519.5925n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



He's a fucking fascist executing a PsyOps.

On 9 Mar 2001 drevil at sidereal.kz wrote:
 
> It was a polite and reasonable post.  I think it's cool that he did
> that, and what he said makes sense.  Now I guess I'm an assistant
> attorney apologist apologist....

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From my-login-request at yahoo-inc.com  Fri Mar  9 17:01:52 2001
From: my-login-request at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:01:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Yahoo! Email Verification
Message-ID: <200103100101.RAA24985@e16.yahoo.com>


Hi, carbonmiranda

You recently were asked to verify your email address(es) with Yahoo!.  
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Please follow the instructions below to complete the verification process.

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 15:02:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:02:48 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | UCITA Fight Comes to Texas
Message-ID: <3AA96118.25AFAD69@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/09/192214.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 15:10:31 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:10:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
In-Reply-To: <20010309174359.C30209@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010309170900.5925o-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Why should they? Such regulations are unconstitutional. There is no
distinction in the 1st about owners and employees of commercial news
agencies, only presses (ie persons who own mechanisms to distribute
information to a community at large).

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> David's comments in his response are on-target.
> 
> In this context, the only definition that seems to matter is what the DOJ
> believes to be a "member of the news media." In other words, if they say
> you're not, you likely would shoulder the burden to prove that you are.
> 
> Even if they acknowledge you are a journalist, the DOJ clearly does not
> feel bound to follow its own regulations.

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 15:15:50 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:15:50 -0600
Subject: The Register - Has the NSA broken EU encryption?
Message-ID: <3AA96426.FCA135C4@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17492.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  9 14:43:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:43:59 -0500
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJCJJJBIOBEAFOIDCMEMCDBAA.sean@hastings.ai>; from sean@hastings.ai on Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 11:26:42AM -0800
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010308215118.00ac3920@mail.well.com> <LOBBJCJJJBIOBEAFOIDCMEMCDBAA.sean@hastings.ai>
Message-ID: <20010309174359.C30209@cluebot.com>


David's comments in his response are on-target.

In this context, the only definition that seems to matter is what the DOJ
believes to be a "member of the news media." In other words, if they say
you're not, you likely would shoulder the burden to prove that you are.

Even if they acknowledge you are a journalist, the DOJ clearly does not
feel bound to follow its own regulations.

-Declan


On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 11:26:42AM -0800, Sean Hastings wrote:
> Declan,
> 
> What are the qualifications one has to meet to be considered a "member of
> the news media"? Does one have to work for some sort of Registered news
> agency, or publish in a registered periodical? I am publishing this right
> now, but I probably don't qualify. Why not?
> 
> Also:
> 
> Are they going to pay for your travel and lodgings? If so, it sounds more
> like a great opportunity than a problem. Not that I won't enjoy hearing you
> bitch about it. ;-)
> 
> --Sean Hastings
> --mailto:sean at havenco.com
> --vmsg/fax:1.800.why.sean
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
> > [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
> > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 6:52 PM
> > To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
> > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> > Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
> >
> >
> >
> > See:
> >
> >
> http://squid.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=28&PART=50&SECTION=10
> &TYPE=TEXT
> >
> >   They say:
> >
> >   "(c) Negotiations with the media shall be pursued in all
> >   cases in which a subpoena to a member of the news media is
> >   contemplated.
> >   and
> >   "All reasonable attempts should be made to obtain information from
> >   alternative sources before considering issuing a subpoena to a member
> >   of the news media
> >   and
> >   "No subpoena may be issued to any member of the news media or for the
> >   telephone toll records of any member of the news media without the
> >   express authorization of the Attorney General
> >
> >
> 




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  9 14:49:29 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:49:29 -0500
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
In-Reply-To: <200103092156.QAA20801@barry.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 04:45:34PM -0500
References: <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com> <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com> <20010309211446.24170.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz> <200103092156.QAA20801@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010309174929.B30583@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 04:45:34PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> I guess I missed Declan's letter to Robb, and I don't see
> it in the Inet archives. Anybody get a copy of it? Those
> cc:s to cpunks in Robb's message surely came from 
> Declan's letter, no? Or is Robb baiting hooks? 


I didn't send a message to Robb, and have not initiated any contact
with or responded to any contact from the prosecution.

I sent a message to the cypherpunks list that quoted from DOJ 
regulations. Robb, apparently a cypherpunk subscriber, replied
to that message but removed the Subject: line.

I wonder if John Young is a journalist, and needs to have his 
subponea approved by John Ashcroft too...

-Declan




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Mar  9 18:07:01 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:07:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cypherpunk Fiction
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103091806110.16308-100000@bolt.sonic.net>





"So anyway, I've been tripping around at lightspeed, and it's been 
about six centuries local time since I set foot here, but when I 
went back to the merchant square this chador greets me by name.
How long do they live, anyhow?"

"Well, that's an interesting question.  We've done the DNA Analysis..."

"They don't use DNA.  They've got some kind of lattice molecule."

"The title of the Biosurvey report for checking whatever mechanism 
they use to pass on genetic information, is DNA Analysis."

"Okay... but it's misleading terminology." 

"Anyway, according to the DNA Analysis, an individual chador only 
ought to live about a hundred fifty years standard..."

"Only!  That's thirty years longer than humans!"

"Captain, let me finish a sentence or two, okay?" 

"Sorry, go ahead." 

"Anyway, even though the lifespan is about a hundred fifty years, 
their history records actions by individuals that apparently lived 
for thousands of years."  

"Is this that bizarre religion of theirs?  With the masks passed 
from one generation to the next and whoever wears the mask being 
considered to be a particular person?"

"Partly.  But it turns out that's not just a religion."

"What do you mean?" 

"We thought it was religious at first, but it turns out that the 
chador pheremonal system is very complex.  In fact, those scent glands
below each eye produce tailored molecules in response to almost all 
sense impressions.  This is the basis of animal communications 
on their homeworld.  But it's not very discriminatory. Basically, the 
scent glands will tell another chador anything that one chador knows 
or actively remembers, whether or not they want the other one to know.  
Learning to use those masks to cover the scent glands, so as *not* to 
communicate everything indiscriminately, was the pivotal point of 
chador civilization, the same way human civilization took off when 
we learned to use language.  Eventually, they developed their  own 
language, so that they could communicate as they chose without 
removing their masks and communicating everything.  The religion, the 
whole 'I am the masks I wear' thing, came after."

"What's that got to do with the chador I saw this afternoon greeting 
me by name?" 

"He was wearing the same mask that the chador who saw you six 
centuries ago was wearing."

"Huh?"  

"The masks.  Sense impressions get written into them as chemical 
traces from the pheremones.  The chador who's wearing the mask 
today can "read" the pheremones, and therefore the sense impressions,
of the chador who was wearing it six centuries ago."

"Six century old pheremones?  That encode my *face*?"  

"It must be a very good mask. The cheap ones they sell tourists are 
just toys. The primitive ones that are handmade out of natural 
materials by backwoods savages on their homeworld are good for a 
year or so.  The modern ones that most chadors in the street are 
wearing for the last thousand years or so, will preserve about 
forty years, so that a chador can have the benefit of knowing some of 
the stuff his or her parents experienced.  But the really good ones - 
the ones that a few very wealthy chadors can afford to have made - 
can be filled with almost eight centuries of sensory memories.  I'd 
wager that your merchant friend had a very wealthy ancestor."

"No bet.  The lens for the center eye looked like it was carved out 
of a great big ruby.  So, is there effectively any difference between 
chadors?  Do they have individual identities beyond those masks?"

"There is.  But there's not.  The chador you saw today was not the 
same person the chador you saw those many years ago was.  But he has 
that earlier chador's memories - at least the ones experienced while 
wearing that mask - available to him just about as easily as his 
own.  Under their law, he accepted all the contracts and agreements 
and property of the mask when he accepted the mask, so legally he is 
the same person.  But he didn't get that mask when he was born.  He 
had a childhood and an adolescence where he wore his own mask, and 
developed his own personality, and he is a different person.  If the 
mask was his father's, he probably wore some other family mask for a 
long time as an adult before he inherited it.  But, it may have been 
his grandfather's or great-grandfather's, presented to him when he 
reached maturity shortly after the patriarch passed on.  It's just 
like you - you have your ship's log, and you can read what the 
previous owner of the ship got up to on any particular day.  Under 
some legal codes, you'd even be liable for crimes your ship's been 
involved with before you got it - but you're not that person. "

"So he's worn other masks during his life."

"At least one.  Probably still wears them from time to time, when he 
doesn't want to be the merchant." 

"So he puts on a different mask, and he's somebody else."

"According to the rules of their society, yes." 

"A mask that contains all your childhood memories.  Wow, I'd like 
to have one of those."  

"You must have had a happier childhood than I, captain." 

"Um, sorry."  

"Not your fault.  Anyway, most chador languages have a lot of 
different pronouns that we humans translate as 'I' or 'we'.  The 
nuances of meaning, in a culture where everybody has several 
distinct identies, are lost on us."

"Wow.  I'll bet crime and punishment is way different." 

"Yeah.  Usually, whoever committed a really heinous crime just 
puts the mask away and never puts it on again. Effectively, the 
criminal ceases to exist. "

"But eventually the police find the mask, right?  I mean, if the 
chador's memories are all in there, then that's it." 

"The police find the masks sometimes, but they can't touch 'em.  
For one chador to put on another's mask is a crime -- identity fraud 
and rape rolled into one.  While there are sensationalized cases 
about chadors working for secret police in some of the more 
backward and oppressive nation-states doing that, it's considered 
an atrocity.  Their equivalent of the UN considers it a crime 
against humanity.  Chadority.  Whatever." 

"And eventually their children inherit these masks?"  

"And sometimes they publicly recite the crimes recorded therein, to 
exonerate the wrongly convicted. And sometimes they take one whiff of 
the mask and refuse it.  Usually, they find it uplifting, but once in 
a while - There was a sensational case a couple months ago, where a 
young female chador inherited one of her father's masks - but the 
first time she put it on, she shrieked, ripped it off again, and 
threw it into a fire.  Turns out there were two masks that looked 
the same, but one of them was used for legal business and one was 
used for.... well, we don't know.  She won't talk about it."

"But you have your suspicions."  

"I do indeed."  

"Hmmm."  

"They are a race very different from ourselves, captain."

"Not so different as you might imagine, Lieutenant.  We all wear 
our masks from time to time.  Thanks for the information on chadors, 
I don't think I really understood them before." 

"You imagine you really understand them now?"

"A little, anyway."


The Captain walked out of the BioSurvey office and down the 
street, musing....  he had fifty names on twenty worlds, and the 
tangled histories stretched nine centuries of relativity-compressed 
time behind him.  At last, he thought, a client who can really 
understand me.

"Good evening, Captain Abrams."  The voice came from the shadows. 

"Good evening, Muk'kelaama.  I shall only be Captain Abrams again 
for tonight, for you and Captain Abrams have business to discuss."

"Muk'kelaama is also, most of the time, not."  The translator had 
bobbled, but the idea was clear enough.

"Are you still interested in the items you wished to purchase last 
time we saw each other, Muk'kelaama?" 

"The persistence of ancestors' memories makes our culture slow to 
change," said Muk'kelaama, as though talking to itself. 

"I understand."  

Muk'kelaama held out a small box. 

Captain Abrams looked inside, and found it filled with rubies. 
Gorgeous, flawless, perfect rubies the size of a fist. 

Later that night a stealth shuttle dropped silently from the sky 
in an out-of-the-way spot far from the city.  Its stark lines and 
composites defied radar, and its matte black finish defied lidar. 
It flew like a brick with wings, but what the hell.  

Dropping vertically onto its g-thrusters in a grassy meadow, it 
popped the hatch as soon as it hit the ground - the hell with safety 
regs and clearance - and immediately six chadors of military bearing 
materialized around the edge of the clearing and converged on the 
spot.  

Quickly, they began unloading crate after crate of munitions.  
Captain Abrams and Muk'kelama looked on, silently eyeing each 
other, each wary for some last minute trick or trap. 

Finally, the cargo lay upon the ground, and Captain Abrams raised 
one hand to Muk'kelaama, closed in the fist of a revolutionary 
salute the other might recognize from six centuries ago.  "Good 
luck," he said.  

The door popped closed and the ship silently fell into the sky, 
its perfectly tuned g-thrusters making no sound at all. 

Muk'kelaama turned and found its general at its elbow, breathing 
hard behind its mask.  "With this much, sir, we can wipe out 
entire cities!  The revolution lives!"

Ace Novelty and Toy Company, each crate read.  Inventory item 
20063:  Stink bombs.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 16:23:47 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:23:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Downloading copies of C.E Shannon's papers (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010309182340.5925t-200000@einstein.ssz.com>



    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:33:14 EST
From: JPeschel at aol.com
To: measl at mfn.org, david.garrard at centrelink.gov.au, coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: Downloading copies of C.E Shannon's papers

I just heard from the editor, Fran Grimes, of 
the Bell Systems Technical Journal today.  She
writes: "We will post Shannon's "Communications
Theory of Secrecy Systems." It should be up 
sometime next week.

Right now the only version of this paper on the
web that I know of is in a horrible 
image format.

Joe

 __________________________________________
  
 Joe Peschel 
 D.O.E. SysWorks    
 http://members.aol.com/jpeschel/index.htm
 __________________________________________
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 16:35:47 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:35:47 -0600
Subject: The Register - A Pat Cadigan short story
Message-ID: <3AA976E3.4079B566@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17497.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 16:56:12 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:56:12 -0600
Subject: The Unofficial R.D. Laing Website
Message-ID: <3AA97BAC.9B0D65F6@ssz.com>


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5214/laing.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From brainteaser at subdimension.com  Fri Mar  9 16:15:19 2001
From: brainteaser at subdimension.com (brainteaser)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:15:19 -0500
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
Message-ID: <200103100015.TAA21988@www.subdimension.com>


> I think it might have something to do with your Bible-crypto theory. 
> Even this low-grade cipher is certain to befuddle the cryptoanalytic 
> attacks of law enforcement agencies which have long-ignored the value 
> of a liberal arts education. To their great woe, they have cultivated 
> an exploitable weakness.


Certain to befuddle, that seems overly-strong. Why should no one in law 
enforcement agencies have studied old English literature? A quick search 
could tell anyone what to read if they had a reason to. Thats assuming 
there is a deeper message than the one written in Ye Olde Englishe.

You sound a bit like a certain web-site in this message, have you 
changed actors lately?


--------------------------------------
FREE ANONYMOUS EMAIL!  Sign up now.
http://www.subdimension.com/freemail




From ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net  Fri Mar  9 17:06:54 2001
From: ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net (ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:06:54 -0500
Subject: The" Appearance" Trap
Message-ID: <200103100112.f2A1C8421272@ak47.algebra.com>


It is useless to bitch at me, the text is not from me...
Get it at  http://www.peoples-rights.com/freedom.htm

The" Appearance" Trap

No "Policy Enforcement" / "Revenue Collection" officer ("Police") has the power  to "Arrest" 
you. They can only "apprehend" and "detain" you for up to two (2) hours, -during which 
time they must take you before a "Court Officer" for "probable Cause" Hearing. it is the 
Commissioner/ Judge/ magistrate's job to determine whether the government has sufficient 
evidence to "charge" or prosecute you. it is at the "Court Officer's Office", that the detainment 
is converted to an actual "Arrest".

In order to become a "Party" to a Law suit or "Case",- government must "trick"  you (within the 
first 48 hours after "Arrest" at the "court commissioner's"/  Justice of Peace's/ Judge's 
Office) [See Riverside vs. McLaughlin ], into making "Appearance". By making "Appearance", - 
you become "a party" to the case as "Defendant".

The several "tricks" are:

(1). You must give them your Name. Until YOU voluntarily state your Name, -  they must write 
the fictitious name "John Doe" on their papers. Even if they already know you. Even if 
they have found a "Driver License" with the ALL CAPITAL LETTER fictitious name duplicate to 
yours, - they can not make the tie-in. They have to trick YOU into stating your name 
to them, or They must trick you, where:

(2.)You must agree to post a "Bail-Bond", or,

(3.)You "sign" something (Signature = "Consent to be regulated") or

(4.)You must agree to accept an "Attorney" to "Represent" you, or

(5.)You must enter a Plea of "Not Guilty" or "Guilty", or

(6.)You discuss, address or mention any facts about the case, or

(7.)You must say or write something (anything) favorable to your position or   un-Favorable to the 
Plaintiff's position, (traverse).

(8). You say or write anything admitting that there is a "case".
[The presumption being - if it is not Your "case", Why would you even acknowledge it ?] By 
acknowledging that there even is a "case", - you must be a "Party" to that case - you 
just made an "Appearance".   According to C.J.S.(California Jural Society) the only way to 
defeat being tricked into making "Appearance", is to challenge "In Personam" jurisdiction, 
and  NOTHING ELSE. The (geographical) physical location "Venue" jurisdiction, and "subject 
matter" "In Rem" (contract in commerce) jurisdiction of the Court, 
arise by "Operation of Law". (Case entry)

Returning All Papers with the "SAMPLE" "Neutral Response #1" letter, removes  the "In 
Personam", which accomplishes - they don't get "Appearance" on You. 
So, You are Not a "Party" or "Defendant" - if you send All papers back with it.   This is for 
"Defense" Mode only.

If they "Arrest" you and "Take you in" - DON'T EVER give your name. To do so, is to 
voluntarily enter into a "Contract " with the court - and You have made an "Appearance" in the 
"Case". Exercise your "Miranda" "Right to remain silent" and DON'T SIGN ANYTHING (No 
Bond papers, No "Finger Print Card", No."Photograph Card", No "Personal effects" 
voucher, etc.), where they only have 48 Hours to hold you, and trick you into "Appearance", or 
Release you (See Riverside vs. McLaughlin- Calif.).

Also, - If they "Arrest" you, - have a Friend (after the 49th Hour) serve the "Riverside vs. 
McLaughlin Law Suit" on the Plaintiff "STATE OF of I and District Prosecuting Attorney, and 
the "Keepers" at the jail (or wherever they are holding you). They will contact their "Lawyer" to 
ask about it. He will advise them to let you out, immediately, rather than face additional 
damages from the "Law Suit".

When in the Court, - When they ask you a question, ANY question - Don't say Anything. Don't 
give, write, or say your Name. When they say, - "What's your name?" Say "I am not 
'authorized' to sign anything." When they ask you a question, (such as "What's Your Name?"), 
say "I don't have enough information or knowledge to form a responsive answer" or "I 
Object" or "I don't Understand."  
(To "understand"- is to "stand" "under"; be subordinate; be "subject" to.) 

Note. If the "Judge" enters a Plea (for you) of "Not Guilty". You must ask "Is that a 
"Administrative" decision or a "Judicial" Decision" ? When he says "Judicial". - (or "both") - 
You 
say "On the Record" , "Thank you Your Honor, for the "Acquittal that I am "Not Guilty" I and 
WALK OUT OF THE COURT.   DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ELSE TO ANYONE. 
SIMPLY WALK OUT.

"'If he orders the Bailiff or other "Court Officer" to apprehend you or You will be in "Contempt Of 
Court", - say "If you are Not going to honor your own 'Decision', -  I hereby serve 
NOTICE of Appeal" (State vs. Adams, K- Mart Corp vs. Salmon, "Malicious Prosecution", and 
"Abuse of Process". 

For copy of "Brad's Kansas Law Suit/Riverside vs. McLaughlin" send $5.00, or for further 
information and/or a Seminar for your "Rights Study" Group, contact:

PEOPLES RIGHTS ASSOCIATION address used without prejudice to rights c/o, -  
1624 Savannah Road, Lewes, Delaware (Spell fully out, small letters) no voluntary-military zip 
zone Venue number used

JOHN DOE

John Doe- A fictitious name frequently used to indicate a person for the purpose of argument or 
illustration. or in the course of enforcing a fiction in the law. The name which was 
usually given to the fictitious lessee of the plaintiff in the mixed action of ejectment. He was 
sometimes called "Goodtitle." So the Romans had their fictitious personages In law 
proceedings. as Titus, Seius. 

The name "John Doe" Is, and for some centuries has been. used In legal proceedings as a 
fictitious name to designate a party until his real name can be ascertained. State v. 
Rossignol. 22 Wash.2d 19. 153 P.2d 882. 885. 

When they demand "payment" of a"debt" in Court. We say "Will you accept a non-redeemable 
Note drawn on a Private Bank?". They say "No". We show a $ Federal Reserve 
"Note" to the Judge, and We say "Your Honor, they just refused "Payment"- per U.C.C. 3- 603 
1 (b) Debt is discharged'. He says 'You're right- Case Dismissed"

Statement to make before a "fiction court"
"Under"- 1.) in or to a position below or beneath something.
3.) in or into a condition of subjection, subordination, or unconsciousness. 

"Standing" - n. lb: a position from which one may assert or enforce legal rights and duties.

"Understanding" - n. 3c: a mutual agreement not formally entered into but in some degree 
binding on each side. "Understanding" - adj. 1: fully apprehended.

"Apprehend" - 1a: to take hold of. 1b: arrest, seize.
3: to grasp with the understanding; be fully aware of
vi i understand, grasp.

"Fiction" - 1a: something invented by the imagination or feigned.

"Feign"-la: to represent by a false appearance of. Pretense, dissemble.

"Dissemble" 1: to hide under false appearance. 2: to put under the appearance of: simulate - vi: 
to put on a false appearance, conceal facts, intentions, of feelings under some 
pretense.

"Statement - before a fictitious court", "I Do Not understand as to feign or dissemble, or to be so 
understood as to be fully apprehended, for to do so would be under false pretense, 
therefore, I Do Not have understanding"

SECOND STATEMENT (follow-up) if necessary. "I Do NOT understand, for I may be beneath a 
position from which YOU may assert your legal rights, and may create an agreement 
not formally entered into, but in some degree binding, and this may cause me to be falsely 
understood, fully apprehended, and dissembled, therefore, I Do NOT have understanding"

FICTION OF LAW

Fiction of law. An assumption or supposition of law that something which Is or may be false Is 
true, or that a state of facts exists which has never really taken place. An assumption. 
for purposes of justice, of a fact that does not or may not exist. A rule of law which assumes as 
true. and will not allow to be disproved something which is false, but not impossible. 
Ryan v. Motor Credit Co.. 30 N.I.Eq. 531. 23 A 2d 607, 621 In their "Fiction" Court Their 
"discretion" is YOU LOSE - regardless how much "Proof" or evidence of how "Right" you 
are.	

End








________________________________________________________________________
Protect your privacy! - Get Freedom 2.0 at http://www.freedom.net




From ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net  Fri Mar  9 17:26:01 2001
From: ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net (ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:26:01 -0500
Subject: The UCC Connection: Free Yourself from Legal Tyranny  (1/3)
Message-ID: <200103100133.f2A1XA424207@ak47.algebra.com>


                       The UCC Connection:

                Free Yourself from Legal Tyranny


                       September 22, 1991


                            Foreword

     This  is   a  slightly   condensed,   casually   paraphrased
transcript of tapes of a seminar given in 1990 by [the late] Howard Freeman.
It was prepared to make available the knowledge and experience of
Mr. Freeman  in his  search for  an accessible and understandable
explanation of  the confusing  state of  the government  and  the
courts.   It should  be helpful  to those who may have difficulty
learning from  such lectures,  or those  who want  to  develop  a
deeper understanding of this information without having to listen
to three or four hours of recorded material.

     The frustration  many  Americans  feel  about  our  judicial
system can  be overwhelming  and often  frightening and,  as most
fear, is  based on  lack of understanding or knowledge.  Those of
us who  have chosen  a path  out of  bondage and into liberty are
faced, eventually,  with the  seemingly tyrannical  power of some
governmental agency  and the  mystifying and awesome power of the
courts.   We have  been taught  that we must "get a good lawyer,"
but that  is becoming  increasingly difficult, if not impossible.
If we  are defending  ourselves from the government, we find that
the lawyers  quickly take our money and then tell us, as the ship
is sinking,  "I can't  help you  with that  --  I'm an officer of
the court."

     Ultimately, the  only way  for us to have even a "snowball's
chance" is  to understand the RULES OF THE GAME and to come to an
understanding of  the true  nature of  the Law.  The lawyers have
established and  secured a  virtual monopoly  over this  area  of
human  knowledge  by  implying  that  the  subject  is  just  too
difficult for the average person to understand, and by creating a
separate vocabulary  out of  English words  of  otherwise  common
usage.   While it  may, at times, seem hopelessly complicated, it
is not  that difficult  to grasp.  Are lawyers really as smart as
they would have us believe?  Besides, anyone who has been through
a legal  battle against  the government  with the aid of a lawyer
has come to realize that lawyers learn about procedure, not about
law.  Mr. Freeman admits that he is not a lawyer and, as such, he
has a  way of  explaining law  to us that puts it well within our
reach.   Consider also that the framers of the Constitution wrote
in language  simple enough  that  the  people  could  understand,
specifically so that it would not have to be interpreted.

     So, again we find, as in many other areas of life, that "THE
BUCK STOPS  HERE!"  It is we who must take the responsibility for
finding and  putting to  good use  the TRUTH.   It is we who must
claim and  defend our God-given rights and our freedom from those
who would  take them  from  us.    It  is  we  who  must  protect
ourselves, our  families and  our posterity  from the  inevitable
intrusion into  our lives by those who live parasitically off the
labor, skill and talents of others.

     To  these   ends,  Mr.  Freeman  offers  a  simple,  hopeful
explanation of  our plight, and a peaceful method of dealing with
it.  Please take note that this lecture represents one chapter in
the book  of his  understanding, which  he  is  always  refining,
expanding and  improving.   It is,  as all  bits of wisdom are, a
point of  departure from  which to  begin our  own  journey  into
understanding, that  we all  might be  able to  pass on to others
greater knowledge  and hope,  and to God, the gift of lives lived
in peace, freedom and praise.


                          UCC Connection

        "I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves,
        be as wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove."


                          Introduction

     When I  beat the  IRS, I used Supreme Court decisions.  If I
had tried to use these in court, I would have been convicted.

     I was  involved with  a Patriot  group and I studied supreme
Court cases.   I  concluded that  the Supreme  Court had declared
that I  was not a person required to file an income tax  --  that
the tax  was an  excise tax  on privileges granted by government.
So, I  quit filing  and paying  income taxes, and it was not long
before they  came down  on me  with a  heavy hand.  They issued a
notice of  deficiency, which  had such a fantastic sum on it that
the biggest  temptation was  to go  in with their letter and say,
"Where in  the world did you ever get that figure?"  They claimed
I owed  them some $60,000.  But, even if I had been paying taxes,
I never  had that  much money, so how could I have owed them that
much?


              Never Argue the Amount of Deficiency

     Fortunately,  I   had  been  given  just  a  little  bit  of
information:  NEVER ARGUE THE FACTS IN A TAX CASE.  If you're not
required to file, what do you care whether they say you owe sixty
dollars or  60,000 dollars?  If you are not required to file, the
amount doesn't  matter.   Don't argue  the amount   --  that is a
fact issue.   In  most  instances,  when  you  get  a  Notice  of
Deficiency, it  is usually  for some  fantastic amount.   The IRS
wants you  to run  in and argue about the amount.  The minute you
say, "I  don't owe  that much," you have agreed that you owe them
something, and  you have  given them jurisdiction.  Just don't be
shocked at  the amount  on a  Notice of Deficiency, even if it is
ten million  dollars!   If the law says that you are not required
to file or pay tax, the amount doesn't matter.

     By arguing  the amount,  they will just say that you must go
to tax  court and  decide what  the amount is to be.  By the time
you get  to tax  court, the  law issues are all decided.  You are
only there  to decide  how much you owe.  They will not listen to
arguments of law.

     So, I  went to  see the  agent and  told him  that I  wasn't
required to  file.   He said,  "You are  required  to  file,  Mr.
Freeman."  But I had all these supreme Court cases, and I started
reading them  to him.  He said, "I don't know anything about law,
Mr. Freeman, but the Code says that you are required to file, and
you're going  to pay  that amount  or you're  going to  go to tax
court."   I thought  that someone  there ought  to know something
about law, so I asked to talk to his superior.  I went to him and
got out  my Supreme  Court cases, and he wouldn't listen to them.
"I don't  know anything  about law, Mr. Freeman ...."  Finally, I
got to  the Problems  Resolution Officer,  and he  said the  same
thing.   He said  that the only person above him was the District
Director.   So, I  went to  see him.   By  the time  I got to his
office, they had phoned ahead, and his secretary said he was out.
But, I heard someone in his office, and I knew he was in there.

     I went  down the  elevator, around the corner to the Federal
Building and  into Senator  Simpson's office.   There  was a girl
sitting there  at a  desk, and she asked if she could help me.  I
told her  my problem.   I said that I really thought the District
Director was up there.  I asked her to call the IRS and tell them
that it  was Senator  Simpson's office calling, and to ask if the
District Director  was in.  I said, "If you get him on the phone,
tell him  that you  are from  the Senator's office and you have a
person whom  you are  sending over to speak to him  --  if he is,
can he  wait just five minutes.  His secretary met me when I came
in and said, "Mr. Freeman, you're so lucky  --  the Director just
arrived."

     The Director was very nice and offered me coffee and cookies
and we  sat and talked.  So, he asked me what I wanted to talk to
him about.   (If  you ever have someone say to you, "I'm from the
government and  I'm here  to do you a favor," watch out!  But, we
can turn  that around  and approach  them the  same way.)   So, I
said, "I  thought you ought to know that there are agents working
for you  who are writing letters over your name that you wouldn't
agree with.   Do  you read  all the  mail that  goes out  of this
office over  your signature?"  The Director said, "Oh, I couldn't
read everything   --   it  goes out of here by the bagful."  That
was what  I thought.   I  said, "There  are some  of your  agents
writing letters  which contradict  the decisions  of the  supreme
Court of  the United States.  And they're not doing it over their
name;  they're doing it over your name."

     He was  very interested to hear about it, and asked if I had
any examples.   I  just happened  to have  some with me, so I got
them out  and presented  them to  him.   He thought  it was  very
interesting and asked if I could leave this information with him,
which I  did.   He said  he would  look it over and contact me in
three days.   Three  days later,  he called  me up and said, "I'm
sure, Mr. Freeman, that you will be glad to know that your Notice
of Deficiency  has been  withdrawn.  We've determined that you're
not a  person required to file.  Your file is closed and you will
hear no  more from  us."   I haven't heard another word from them
since.  That was in 1980, and I haven't filed since 1969.


                   The Supreme Court on Trial

     I thought  sure I  had the  answer, but  when a  friend  got
charged with  Willful Failure  to File an income tax, he asked me
to help  him.   I told  him that  they  have  to  prove  that  he
willfully failed  to file,  and I suggested that he should put me
on the  witness stand.   He should ask me if I spoke at a certain
time and  place in  Scott's Bluff,  and did  I  see  him  in  the
audience.   He should then ask me what I spoke of that day.  When
I got  on the stand, I brought out all of the Supreme Court cases
I had  used with  the District  Director.   I thought  I would be
lucky to  get a  sentence or two out before the judge cut me off,
but I was reading whole paragraphs  --  and the judge didn't stop
me.  I read one and then another, and so on.  And finally, when I
had read  just about  as much  as I  thought I  should, the judge
called a  recess of  the court.   I  told Bob I thought we had it
made.   There was  just no  way that  they could rule against him
after all that testimony.  So we relaxed.

     The prosecution  presented its  case and  he decided to rest
his defense  on my  testimony,  which  showed  that  he  was  not
required to  file, and  that the  Supreme Court  had upheld  this
position.   The prosecution then presented its closing statements
and we were just sure that he had won.  But, at the very end, the
judge spoke to the jury and told them, "You will decide the facts
of this case, and I will give you the law.  The law required this
man to  file an  Income Tax  form.   You decide whether or not he
filed it."   What  a shock!  The jury convicted him.  Later, some
members of  the jury  said, "What  could we  do?    The  man  had
admitted that  he had  not filed  the form,  so we had to convict
him."

     As soon  as the trial was over, I went around to the judge's
office and  he was just coming in through his back door.  I said,
"Judge, by  what authority do you overturn the standing decisions
of the United States supreme Court.  You sat on the bench while I
read that  case law.   Now,  how do  you, a District Court Judge,
have the  authority to  overturn decisions of the Supreme Court?"
He says,  "Oh, those  were old  decisions."   I said,  "Those are
standing decisions.   They  have never  been overturned.  I don't
care how  old they are.  You have no right to overturn a standing
decision of the United States Supreme Court in a District Court."


                   Public Law vs Public Policy

     He said,  "Name any decision of the Supreme Court after 1938
and I'll  honor it,  but all the decisions you read were prior to
1938, and  I don't honor those decisions."  I asked what happened
in 1938.   He said, "Prior to 1938, the Supreme Court was dealing
with Public  Law;   since 1938,  the Supreme Court has dealt with
Public Policy.   The  charge that Mr. S. was being tried for is a
Public Policy  Statute, not  Public Law,  and those Supreme Court
cases do  not apply to Public Policy."  I asked him what happened
in 1938.   He  said that  he had already told me too much  --  he
wasn't going to tell me any more.


                   1938 and the Erie Railroad

     Well, I  began to  investigate.   I found  that 1938 was the
year of  the Erie Railroad v. Tompkins case of the Supreme Court.
It was  also the  year the  courts claim  they blended  Law  with
Equity.   I read the Erie Railroad case.  A man had sued the Erie
railroad for  damages when  he was struck by a board sticking out
of a  boxcar as  he walked along beside the tracks.  The district
court  had   decided  on  the  basis  of  Commercial  (Negotiable
Instruments) Law  that this  man was  not under any contract with
the Erie  Railroad, and  therefore he  had no standing to sue the
company.   Under the Common Law, he was damaged and he would have
had the right to sue.

     This overturned  a standing  decision of  over  one  hundred
years.   Swift v. Tyson  in 1840  was  a  similar  case  and  the
decision of  the supreme Court was that in any case of this type,
the court  would judge  the case  on the  Common Law of the State
where the  incident occurred   --   in  this case,  Pennsylvania.
But, in  the Erie Railroad case, the supreme Court ruled that all
federal cases  will be  judged under  the Negotiable  Instruments
Law.  There would be no more decisions based on the Common Law at
the federal  level.   So, here  we find  the blending of Law with
Equity.

     This was  a puzzle  to me.    As  I  put  these  new  pieces
together, I  determined that  all  our  courts  since  1938  were
Merchant Law  courts and not Common Law courts.  There were still
some pieces of the puzzle missing.


                      A Friend of the Court

     Fortunately, I  made a  friend of  a judge.   Now, you won't
make friends  with a  judge if  you go into court like a "wolf in
black sheep  country."   You must  approach him as though you are
the sheep  and he  is the  wolf.  If you go into court as a wolf,
you make  demands and  tell the judge what the law is  --  how he
had better  uphold the  law or else.  Remember the verse:  I send
you out as sheep in wolf country;  be as wise as a serpent and as
harmless as  a dove.   We  have to  go into court and be wise and
harmless, and  not make  demands.  We must play a little dumb and
ask a  lot of  questions.   Well, I  asked a lot of questions and
boxed the  judges into  a corner  where they  had to  give  me  a
victory or admit what they didn't want to admit.  I won the case,
and on  the way  out I  had to  stop by the clerk's office to get
some papers.   One  of the  judges stopped  and said,  "You're an
interesting man,  Mr. Freeman.   If you're ever in town, stop by,
and if I'm not sitting on a case, we will visit."


                       America is Bankrupt

     Later, when  I went  to visit  the judge,  I told  him of my
problem with  the supreme  Court cases dealing with Public Policy
rather than  Public Law.   He  said, "In  1938,  all  the  higher
judges, the top attorneys and the U.S. attorneys were called into
a secret meeting and this is what we were told:


     America is  a bankrupt nation  --  it is owned completely by
     its creditors.  The creditors own the Congress, they own the
     Executive, they own the Judiciary and they own all the State
     governments.


     Take silent  judicial notice  of this fact, but never reveal
     it  openly.    Your  court  is  operating  in  an  Admiralty
     Jurisdiction  --  call it anything you want, but do not call
     it Admiralty.


                        Admiralty Courts

     The reason  they cannot  call it  Admiralty Jurisdiction  is
that  your   defense  would   be  quite  different  in  Admiralty
Jurisdiction  from  your  defense  under  the  Common  Law.    In
Admiralty, there  is no court which has jurisdiction unless there
is a  valid international contract in dispute.  If you know it is
Admiralty Jurisdiction, and they have admitted on the record that
you  are   in  an  Admiralty  Court,  you  can  demand  that  the
international maritime  contract, to  which you  are supposedly a
party, and  which you  supposedly have  breached, be  placed into
evidence.


     No court has Admiralty/Maritime Jurisdiction unless there is
     a  valid  international  maritime  contract  that  has  been
     breached.


So, you  say, just  innocently like  a lamb,  "Well, I never knew
that I got involved with an international maritime contract, so I
deny that  such a  contract exists.   If  this  court  is  taking
jurisdiction in  Admiralty, then  place the contract in evidence,
so that  I may challenge the validity of the contract.  What they
would have  to do is place the national debt into evidence.  They
would have  to admit that the international bankers own the whole
nation, and that we are their slaves.


                          No Expedient

     But, the  bankers said  it is  not expedient at this time to
admit that  they own  everything and  could  foreclose  on  every
nation of the world.  The reason they don't want to tell everyone
that they  own everything  is  that  there  are  still  too  many
privately owned  guns.   There are uncooperative armies and other
military forces.   So,  until they  can gradually consolidate all
armies into  a WORLD  ARMY and  all courts  into a  single  WORLD
COURT, it  is not  expedient to admit the jurisdiction the courts
are operating under.  When we understand these things, we realize
that there  are certain  secrets they don't want to admit, and we
can use this to our benefit.


                          Jurisdiction

     The Constitution  of the  united States mentions three areas
of jurisdiction in which the courts may operate:


Common Law:

     Common Law  is based  on God's  Law.   Any time  someone  is
     charged under the Common Law, there must be a damaged party.
     You are free under the Common Law to do anything you please,
     as long  as you  do not  infringe on  the life,  liberty, or
     property of  someone else.   You have a right to make a fool
     of yourself,  provided you  do not  infringe  on  the  life,
     liberty, or  property of  someone else.  The Common Law does
     not allow  for any  government action  which prevents  a man
     from making a fool of himself.  For instance, when you cross
     over State  lines in  most States, you will see a sign which
     says, "BUCKLE  YOUR SEAT  BELTS   --   IT'S THE  LAW."  This
     cannot be  Common Law,  because who  would you injure if you
     did not  buckle up?    Nobody.    This  would  be  compelled
     performance.   But, Common  law cannot  compel  performance.
     Any violation  of Common  Law is  a  CRIMINAL  ACT,  and  is
     punishable.


Equity Law:

     Equity Law is law which compels performance.  It compels you
     to perform  the exact  letter of  any contract  that you are
     under.  So, if you have compelled performance, there must be
     a contract somewhere, and you are being compelled to perform
     under the obligation of the contract.  Now, this can only be
     a civil  action   --  not criminal.  In Equity Jurisdiction,
     you cannot  be tried criminally, but you can be compelled to
     perform to  the letter of a contract.  If you then refuse to
     perform as  directed by  the court,  you can be charged with
     contempt of  court, which  is a  criminal action.   Are your
     seat belt  laws Equity  laws?  No, they are not, because you
     cannot be  penalized or  punished for  not  keeping  to  the
     letter of a contract.


Admiralty/Maritime Law:

     This is  a civil jurisdiction of Compelled Performance which
     also has  Criminal Penalties  for not adhering to the letter
     of the  contract, but  this only  applies  to  International
     Contracts.   Now, we can see what jurisdiction the seat belt
     laws (and  all traffic laws, building codes, ordinances, tax
     codes, etc.)  are under.   Whenever  there is  a penalty for
     failure to  perform (such  as willful failure to file), that
     is  Admiralty/Maritime   Law  and  there  must  be  a  valid
     international contract in force.


However, the  courts don't  want to admit that they are operating
under  Admiralty/Maritime   Jurisdiction,  so   they   took   the
international law  or Law Merchant and adopted it into our codes.
That is  what the supreme Court decided in the Erie Railroad case
--   that the  decisions will  be  based  on  commercial  law  or
business law  and that it will have criminal penalties associated
with it.   Since  they were  instructed not  to call it Admiralty
Jurisdiction, they call it Statutory Jurisdiction.


                       Courts of Contract

     You may  ask how  we got into this situation where we can be
charged with  failure to  wear seat  belts and  be fined  for it.
Isn't the  judge sworn  to uphold  the Constitution?  Yes, he is.
But, you  must understand  that the  Constitution, in  Article 1,
Section 10,  gives us the unlimited right to contract, as long as
we do  not infringe  on the life, liberty, or property of someone
else.   Contracts are enforceable, and the Constitution gives two
jurisdictions where  contracts can  be enforced   --   Equity and
Admiralty.   But,  we  find  them  being  enforced  in  Statutory
Jurisdiction.   This is the embarrassing part for the courts, but
we can  use this  to box  the judges  into a  corner in their own
courts.  We will cover this more later.


                   Contracts Must Be Voluntary

     Under the  Common Law,  every contract  must be entered into
knowingly, voluntarily,  and intentionally by both parties, or it
is void and unenforceable.  These are characteristics of a Common
Law contract.   There  is another  characteristic  --  it must be
based on  substance.   For example,  contracts used to read, "For
one dollar  and other  valuable considerations, I will paint your
house, etc."   That  was a  valid contract   --  the dollar was a
genuine silver  dollar.   Now, suppose  you wrote a contract that
said, "For  one Federal  Reserve Note and other considerations, I
will paint  your house ...."  And suppose, for example, I painted
your house the wrong color.  Could you go into a Common Law court
and get  justice?  No, you could not.  You see, a Federal Reserve
Note is  a "colorable"1  dollar, as it has no substance, and in a
Common Law jurisdiction, that contract would be unenforceable.


              Colorable Money  --  Colorable Courts

     The word  "colorable" means  something that  appears  to  be
genuine, but  is not.  Maybe it looks like a dollar, and maybe it
spends like  a dollar,  but if  it is  not redeemable  for lawful
money (silver  or gold)  it is "colorable."  If a Federal Reserve
Note  is  used  in  a  contract,  then  the  contract  becomes  a
"colorable" contract.  And "colorable" contracts must be enforced
under a  "colorable"  jurisdiction.    So,  by  creating  Federal
Reserve Notes,  the government  had to  create a  jurisdiction to
cover the kinds of contracts which use them.  We now have what is
called Statutory  Jurisdiction, which  is not a genuine Admiralty
jurisdiction.   It  is  "colorable"  Admiralty  Jurisdiction  the
judges are  enforcing because  we are  using  "colorable  money."
Colorable Admiralty  is  now  known  as  Statutory  Jurisdiction.
Let's see how we got under this Statutory Jurisdiction.


                     Uniform Commercial Code

     The government  set up  a "colorable"  law system to fit the
"colorable" currency.   It  used to be called the Law Merchant or
the Law  of Redeemable  Instruments, because  it dealt with paper
which was  redeemable in  something  of  substance.    But,  once
Federal Reserve  Notes had become unredeemable, there had to be a
system of  law which  was completely  "colorable" from  start  to
finish.    This  system  of  law  was  codified  as  the  Uniform
Commercial Code,  and has  been adopted  in every State.  This is
"colorable" law, and it is used in all the courts.

     I explained  one of  the keys  earlier, which  is  that  the
country is  bankrupt and  we have  no rights.  If the master says
"Jump!" then  the slave  had better  jump, because the master has
the right  to cut  his head  off.   As slaves, we have no rights.
But, the  creditors/masters had to cover that up, so they created
a system  of law  called  the  Uniform  Commercial  Code.    This
"colorable" jurisdiction under the Uniform Commercial Code is the
next key to understanding what has happened.


                      Contract or Agreement

     One difference between Common Law and the Uniform Commercial
Code is  that in Common Law, contracts must be entered into:  (1)
knowingly  (2) voluntarily and  (3) intentionally.


     Under the  UCC, this is not so.  First of all, contracts are
unnecessary.   Under this  new law,  "agreements" can be binding,
and if  you only  exercise the  benefits of an "agreement," it is
presumed or  implied that  you intend  to  meet  the  obligations
associated with  those benefits.  If you accept a benefit offered
by government,  then you  are obligated to follow, to the letter,
each and  every statute  involved with  that benefit.  The method
has been  to get  everybody exercising  a benefit, and they don't
even have  to tell  the people  what the benefit is.  Some people
think it  is the  driver's license,  the marriage  license or the
birth certificate, etc.  I believe it is none of these.


                        Compelled Benefit

     I believe  the benefit being used is that we have been given
the privilege of discharging debt with limited liability, instead
of paying  debt.   When we  pay a  debt, we  give  substance  for
substance.   If I  buy a quart of milk with a silver dollar, that
dollar bought  the milk,  and the  milk bought  the  dollar    --
substance for substance.  But, if I use a Federal Reserve Note to
buy the  milk, I  have not paid for it.  There is no substance in
the Federal  Reserve Note.    It  is  worthless  paper  given  in
exchange for  something of substantive value.  Congress offers us
this benefit:


     Debt money,  created by  the federal  United States,  can be
     spent all  over the  continental united  States;  it will be
     legal tender  for all  debts, public  and private,  and  the
     limited liability  is that you cannot be sued for not paying
     your debts.


So, now they have said, "We're going to help you out, and you can
just discharge your debts instead of paying your debts."  When we
use this  "colorable" money to discharge our debts, we cannot use
a Common Law court.  We can only use a "colorable" court.  We are
completely under  the jurisdiction of the Uniform Commercial Code
--  we are using non-redeemable negotiable instruments and we are
discharging debt rather than paying debt.

(continued in The UCC Connection: Free Yourself from Legal Tyranny  (2/3) )



________________________________________________________________________
Protect your privacy! - Get Freedom 2.0 at http://www.freedom.net




From ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net  Fri Mar  9 17:29:07 2001
From: ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net (ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:29:07 -0500
Subject: The UCC Connection: Free Yourself from Legal Tyranny  (2/3)
Message-ID: <200103100134.f2A1YX424357@ak47.algebra.com>



                       Remedy and Recourse

     Every system of civilized law must have two characteristics:
Remedy and  Recourse.  Remedy is a way to get out from under that
law.  The Recourse is if you have been damaged under the law, you
can recover your loss.  The Common Law, the Law of Merchants, and
even the  Uniform Commercial  Code all  have remedy and recourse,
but for  a long  time we  could not  find it.  If you go to a law
library and  ask to  see the  Uniform Commercial  Code, they will
show you  a shelf  of books  completely filled  with the  Uniform
Commercial Code.   When  you pick up one volume and start to read
it, it  will seem  to  have  been  intentionally  written  to  be
confusing.   It took  us a long time to discover where the Remedy
and Recourse  are found  in the UCC.  They are found right in the
first volume, at 1-207 and 1-103.


                             Remedy

     The making  of  a  valid  Reservation  of  Rights  preserves
     whatever rights  the person then possesses, and prevents the
     loss of  such rights by application of concepts of waiver or
     estoppel.  (UCC 1-207.7)


     It is important to remember when we go into a court, that we
are in  a commercial,  international jurisdiction.  If we go into
court and  say, "I  DEMAND MY  CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS,"  the judge
will most  likely say,  "You mention  the Constitution again, and
I'll find  you in  contempt of court!"  Then, we don't understand
how he  can do that.  Hasn't he sworn to uphold the Constitution?
The rule  here is:  you cannot be charged under one jurisdiction,
and defend  under another.  For example, if the French government
came to you and asked where you filed your French income tax in a
certain year,  do you  go to  the French  government and  say, "I
demand my  Constitutional Rights?"   No.   The  proper answer is:
THE LAW  DOESN'T APPLY  TO ME  --  I'M NOT A FRENCHMAN.  You must
make your  reservation of  rights under the jurisdiction in which
you are charged  --  not under some other jurisdiction.  So, in a
UCC court,  you must  claim your  reservation of rights under the
UCC 1-207.

     UCC 1-207 goes on to say:


     When a  waivable right  or claim is involved, the failure to
     make a  reservation thereof, causes a loss of the right, and
     bars its assertion at a later date. (UCC 1-207.9)


You have to make your claim known early.  Further, it says:


     The Sufficiency  of the  Reservation   --    Any  expression
     indicating an  intention to  reserve rights,  is sufficient,
     such as "without prejudice".  (UCC 1-207.4)


Whenever you sign any legal paper that deals with Federal Reserve
Notes   --  in any way, shape or manner  --  under your signature
write:  Without Prejudice UCC 1-207.2  This reserves your rights.
You can  show, at  1-207.4, that  you have  sufficiently reserved
your rights.

     It is  very important  to understand  just what  this means.
For example,  one man who used this in regard to a traffic ticket
was asked  by the  judge just  what he  meant by writing "without
prejudice UCC  1-207" on  his statement to the court.  He had not
tried to understand the concepts involved.  He only wanted to use
it to  get out  of the  ticket.   He did  not know what it meant.
When the judge asked him what he meant by signing in that way, he
told the  judge that  he was  not prejudiced  against anyone ....
The judge  knew that  the man  had no  idea what it meant, and he
lost the case.  You must know what it means.


                   Without Prejudice UCC 1-207

     When you  use "Without  Prejudice UCC  1-207" in  connection
with your signature, you are saying:


     I reserve  my right not to be compelled to perform under any
     contract or  commercial  agreement  that  I  did  not  enter
     knowingly,   voluntarily,    and   intentionally.       And,
     furthermore, I  do not accept the liability of the compelled
     benefit of any unrevealed contract or commercial agreement.


     What  is   the  compelled   performance  of   an  unrevealed
commercial agreement?  When you use Federal Reserve Notes instead
of silver  dollars, is  it voluntary?   No.   There  is no lawful
money, so  you have to use Federal Reserve Notes  --  you have to
accept the  benefit.  The government has given you the benefit to
discharge your  debts with  limited liability, and you don't have
to pay  your debts.   How  nice they  are!   But, if  you did not
reserve your  rights under  1-207.7, you  are compelled to accept
the benefit,  and therefore  obligated  to  obey  every  statute,
ordinance and  regulation of  the government,  at all  levels  of
government  --  federal, State and local.

     If you  understand this,  you will  be able to explain it to
the judge  when he  asks.   And he  will ask,  so be  prepared to
explain it  to the  court.   You will also need to understand UCC
1-103  --  the argument and recourse.

     If you  want to  understand this  fully, go to a law library
and photocopy  these two  sections from the UCC.  It is important
to get  the Anderson3  edition.   Some of  the law libraries will
only have  the West  Publishing version, and it is very difficult
to understand.  In Anderson, it is broken down with decimals into
ten parts and, most importantly, it is written in plain English.


                            Recourse

     The Recourse  appears in  the  Uniform  Commercial  Code  at
1-103.6, which says,


     The Code  is complementary  to the Common Law, which remains
     in force,  except where  displaced by  the Code.   A statute
     should be  construed in  harmony with the Common Law, unless
     there is  a clear  legislative intent to abrogate the Common
     Law.


This is the argument we use in court.

     The Code recognizes the Common Law.  If it did not recognize
the Common  Law, the  government would have had to admit that the
United States  is  bankrupt,  and  is  completely  owned  by  its
creditors.   But, it  is not expedient to admit this, so the Code
was written  so as  not  to  abolish  the  Common  Law  entirely.
Therefore, if  you have  made a  sufficient, timely, and explicit
reservation of your rights at 1-207, you may then insist that the
statutes be construed in harmony with the Common Law.

     If the  charge is  a traffic ticket, you may demand that the
court produce  the  injured  person  who  has  filed  a  verified
complaint.   If, for  example, you  were charged  with failure to
buckle your seat belt, you may ask the court who was injured as a
result of your failure to "buckle up."

     However, if  the judge  won't listen  to you  and just moves
ahead with  the case,  then you will want to read to him the last
sentence of 1-103.6, which states:


     The Code cannot be read to preclude a Common Law action.


Tell the judge:


     Your Honor,  I  can  sue  you  under  the  Common  Law,  for
     violating my  right under  the Uniform  Commercial Code.   I
     have a remedy, under the UCC, to reserve my rights under the
     Common Law.   I  have exercised the remedy, and now you must
     construe this statute in harmony with the Common Law.  To be
     in harmony  with the  Common Law, you must come forth with a
     damaged party.


If the  judge insists  on proceeding  with  the  case,  just  act
confused and ask this question:


     Let me see if I understand, Your Honor:  Has this court made
     a legal  determination that  sections 1-207 and 1-103 of the
     Uniform Commercial  Code, which is the system of law you are
     operating under, are not valid law before this court?


Now, the  judge is  in a  jamb!   How can the court throw out one
part of  the Code  and uphold another?  If he answers "yes," then
you say:


     I put  this court  on notice  that I am appealing your legal
     determination.


Of course,  the higher court will uphold the Code on appeal.  The
judge knows this, so once again you have boxed him into a corner.


            Practical Application  --  Traffic Court

     Just so  we can understand how this whole process works, let
us look at a court situation such as a traffic violation.  Assume
you ran through a yellow light and a policeman gave you a traffic
ticket:


1.   The first  thing you  want to  do is  to delay the action at
     least three  weeks.   This you  can do by being pleasant and
     cooperative with  the officer.   Explain to him that you are
     very busy  and  ask  if  he  could  please  set  your  court
     appearance for about three weeks away.


(At this point, we need to remember the government's trick:  "I'm
from the government.  I'm here to help you."  Now, we want to use
this approach with them.)


2.   The next step is to go to the clerk of the traffic court and
     to say:


     "I believe  it would  be helpful if I talk to you, because I
     want to  save the  government some  money (this will get his
     attention).  I am undoubtedly going to appeal this case.  As
     you know, in an appeal, I have to have a transcript, but the
     traffic court  doesn't have a court reporter.  It would be a
     waste of  taxpayer's money  to run me through this court and
     then to  have to  give me  a trial  de novo  in a  court  of
     record.   I do  need a transcript for appealing, and to save
     the government  some money,  maybe you  could schedule me to
     appear in a court of record."


You can  show the  date on  the ticket and the clerk will usually
agree that  there is  plenty of time to schedule your trial for a
court of  record.   Now, your  first appearance  is in a court of
record and not in a traffic court, where there is no record.

     When you  get into  court, there  will be  a court  reporter
there who  records every  word the  judge speaks, so the judge is
much more  careful in  a court  of record.  You will be in a much
better situation  there than  in a traffic court.  If there is no
record, the  judge can say whatever he wants  --  he can call you
all sorts  of names  and tell you that you have no rights, and so
on  --  and deny it all later.


3.   When you  get into  court, the  judge will read the charges:
     driving through  a yellow  light, or whatever, and this is a
     violation of ordinance XYZ.  He will ask, "Do you understand
     the charge against you?"4


4.   "Well, Your  Honor, there  is a question I would like to ask
     before I  can make a plea of innocent or guilty.  I think it
     could be  answered if  I could  put the officer on the stand
     for a moment and ask him a few short questions."

     Judge:   "I don't  see why  not.  Let's swear the officer in
     and have him take the stand."


5.   "Is this the instrument that you gave me?"  (handing him the
     traffic citation)

     Officer:   "Yes, this  is a  copy of  it.  The judge has the
     other portion of it."

     "Where did  you get  my  address  that  you  wrote  on  that
     citation."

     Officer:  "Well, I got it from your driver's license."

     (Handing the  officer your  driver's license)   "Is this the
     document you copied my name and address from?"

     Officer:  "Yes, this is where I got it."

     "While you've  got that  in your  hand, would  you read  the
     signature that's  on that  license?"  (The officer reads the
     signature)   "While you're  there, would  you read  into the
     record what it says under the signature?"

     Officer:  "It says, 'Without Prejudice UCC 1-207'."

     Judge:  "Let me see that license!  (He looks at it and turns
     to the  officer.) "You didn't notice this printing under the
     signature on  this license,  when you  copied his  name  and
     address onto the ticket?"

     Officer:   "Oh, no.   I  was just getting the address  --  I
     didn't look down there."

     Judge:     "You're  not   very  observant   as  an  officer.
     Therefore, I  am afraid  I cannot  accept your  testimony in
     regards to the facts of this case.  This case is dismissed."


6.   In this  case, the  Judge found a convenient way out  --  he
     could say  that the officer was not observant enough to be a
     reliable witness.   He did not want to admit the real nature
     of the jurisdiction of his court.  Once it was in the record
     that you  had written  "Without Prejudice UCC 1-207" on your
     license, the judge knew he would have to admit that:


     a.   you had reserved your Common Law rights under the UCC;

     b.   you  had   one  it  sufficiently  by  writing  "Without
          Prejudice UCC 1-207" on your driver's license;

     c.   the statute  would now  have to be read in harmony with
          the Common  Law, and  the Common  Law says  the statute
          exists, but there is no injured party;  and

     d.   since there is no injured party or complaining witness,
          the court has no jurisdiction under the Common Law.


7.   If the  judge tries  to move  ahead and try the facts of the
     case, then you will want to ask him the following question:


     Your Honor,  let me  understand this  correctly.   Has  this
     court made a legal determination that it has authority under
     the jurisdiction  that it  is operating under, to ignore two
     sections of  the Uniform  Commercial Code  which  have  been
     called to its attention?


If he  says "yes," tell him that you put the court on notice that
you will  appeal that  legal determination,  and that  if you are
damaged by  his actions,  you will sue him in a common law action
--   under the  jurisdiction of  the UCC.  This will work just as
well with  the Internal Revenue Service.  In fact, we can use the
UCC with the IRS before we get to court.


                   Using the Code with the IRS

     If the  IRS sends you a Notice of Deficiency, this is called
a "presentment"  in the Uniform Commercial Code.  A "presentment"
in the  UCC is  very similar  to the  Common Law.  First, we must
understand just how this works in the Common Law.

     Suppose I  get a man's name from a phone book  --  someone I
have never  met.   And I  send him  a bill  or  invoice  on  nice
letterhead which  says, "For  services rendered:  $10,000.00."  I
send this  by Certified Mail to him at the address taken from the
phone book.  The man has to sign for it before he can open it, so
I get  a receipt that he received it.  When he opens it, he finds
an invoice for $10,000 and the following statement:  "If you have
any questions  concerning this bill or the services rendered, you
have thirty days to make your questions or objections known."

     Of course,  he has  never heard of me, so he just throws the
bill away  and assumes that I'm confused or crazy.  At the end of
thirty days,  I go  to court  and get  a default judgment against
him.   He received  a bill  for $10,000, was given thirty days to
respond.   He failed  to object  to it or ask any questions about
it.  Now, he has defaulted on the bill and I can lawfully collect
the $10,000.

     That's Common  Law.   The UCC  works on  the same principle.
The minute  you get  a Notice  of Deficiency  from the  IRS,  you
return it immediately with a letter that says:


     The presentment  above  is  dishonored.    [Your  name]  has
     reserved all  of his/her rights under the Uniform Commercial
     Code at UCC 1-207.


This should  be all  that is  necessary, as there is nothing more
that they  can do.  In fact, I recently helped someone in Arizona
who received  a Notice of Deficiency.  The man sent a letter such
as this,  dishonoring the "presentment."  The IRS wrote back that
they could  not make  a determination  at that  office, but  were
turning it  over to  the Collections  Department.   A letter  was
attached from  the Collections  Department which  said they  were
sorry for  the inconvenience  they had  caused him  and that  the
Notice of  Deficiency had  been withdrawn.  So, you can see that,
if it is handled properly, these things are easily resolved.


                      Impending Bankruptcy

     On my way here, I had a chance to visit with the Governor of
Wyoming.   He is  very concerned  that if he runs for office this
November, that  there won't  be a  State of Wyoming at the end of
four years.   He  believes that  the International  Bankers might
foreclose on  the nation  and officially  admit that they own the
whole world.   They could round up everybody in the State Capitol
building,  put   them  in   an  internment  camp  and  hold  them
indefinitely.  They may give them a trial, or they may not.  They
will do  whatever they  want.  As I explained earlier, it has not
been expedient  to foreclose  on the  nation until they could get
everything ready.  This is where the Federal Emergency Management
Agency comes  in.  It has been put in place without anyone really
noticing it.


                              FEMA

     F E M A, or the Federal Emergency Management Agency has been
designed for  when America is officially declared bankrupt, which
would be  a national  emergency.   In a  national emergency,  all
Constitutional Rights  and all law that previously existed, would
be suspended.   FEMA  has created large concentration camps where
they would  put anyone  who might  cause trouble  for the orderly
plan and process of the new regime to take over the nation.

     Even a governor could be thrown into one of these internment
camps, and  kept there  indefinitely.   This is all in place now,
and they are just waiting to declare a national emergency.  Then,
even State  governments could  be dissolved.   Anybody  who might
oppose the new regime could be imprisoned until a new set of laws
could be written and a new government set up.  The Governor knows
all this,  and he  is very  concerned.   He doesn't want to be in
office when all this happens.

     I visited  with him  and told  him that  there  are  certain
actions we should take right now.  I think we should consider the
fact that,  according to  the Uniform Commercial Code, Wyoming is
an accommodation  party5 to  the national  debt.   To  understand
this, we  must realize that there are two separate entities known
as the United States.


                    The Rothschild Influence

     When America  was founded, the Rothschilds were very unhappy
because it  was founded  on the  Common Law.   The  Common Law is
based on  substance, and  this  substance  is  mentioned  in  the
Constitution as  gold or  silver.   America is  a  Constitutional
Republic   --    that  is,  a  union  of  the  States  under  the
Constitution.   When Congress  was working  for the Republic, the
only thing it could borrow was gold or silver, and the Rothschild
banks did  not loan gold or silver.  Naturally, they did not like
this new government.

     The Rothschilds  had a  deal with  the King  of England.  He
would borrow paper and agree to repay in gold.  But, these united
States, with their Constitution, were an obstacle to them, and it
was much  to the  Rothschild's advantage to get the colonies back
under the  King.  So, the Rothschilds financed the War of 1812 to
bring America  back under  England.  Of course, that didn't work,
so they had to find another way.


                  The Flaw in the Constitution:
                       Two Nations in One

     It was  around the  time of the American Civil War that they
discovered a  flaw in  the Constitution.  The flaw was Article 1,
Section 8, Clause 17.

     Remember that  there are two nations called "United States."
What is a nation?  See if you would agree to this definition:


     Whenever you  have a  governing body,  having  a  prescribed
     territory containing a body of people.


Is that a nation?  Yes.  We have a governing body in the Republic
--   the three-branch  government.  They are the legislative, the
executive, and the judicial branches, with a constitution.  There
is a prescribed territory containing a body of people.  This is a
Constitutional Republic.

     But, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 gave Congress, which is
the legislative  branch of the three-branch government, exclusive
rule over  a given  territory known  as the District of Columbia,
containing a  body of  people.   Here we  have a  nation within a
nation.   This is a Legislative Democracy within a Constitutional
Republic.

     When Congress  was a part of the Constitutional Republic, it
had the obligation of providing a medium of exchange for us.  Its
duty was  to coin gold or silver.  Anyone who had a piece of gold
or silver  could bring it in and have it freely minted into coin.
This was the medium of exchange for the Republic.

     But, in  the Legislative  Democracy (over Washington, D.C.),
Congress is  not limited  by  the  Constitution.    Congress  has
exclusive rule  over the  District of  Columbia.  The legislators
can make  the law  by a  majority vote   --    that  makes  it  a
democracy;  they have the authority to have administrative agents
to  enforce  their  own  law;    and  they  have  courts  in  the
legislative branch of government, to try their own law.  Here, we
have the legislature making the law, enforcing the law and trying
the law, all within the one branch of government.  This is a one-
branch government within a three-branch government.

     Under the  three-branch government,  the Congress passes law
which has  to be  in harmony with the Constitution, the executive
enforces the  law passed by the Congress, and the judiciary tries
the law, pursuant to the Constitution.

     THE THREE-BRANCH  CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC and the ONE-BRANCH
LEGISLATIVE DEMOCRACY  are both called THE UNITED STATES.  One is
the federal  United States,  and the  other  is  the  continental
united States.


                Are You a United States Citizen?

     If you  say that  you are  a United  States  citizen,  which
United States  are you  referring to?   Anyone  who lives  in the
District of  Columbia is  a United States citizen.  The remaining
population in  the fifty  States is the national citizenry of the
nation.   We are domiciled in various sovereign States, protected
by the  constitutions of  those States  from any  direct rule  of
Congress over  us.   In the  democracy, anyone who lives in those
states known  as Washington,  D.C., Guam,  Puerto Rico, or any of
the other  federally held  territories is a citizen of the United
States (D.C.).

     We must  be careful with our choice of words  --  we are not
citizens of  the United  States.  We are not subject to Congress.
Congress has  exclusive rule  over a  given territory, and we are
not part of that territory.

     When did  Congress get  the authority  to write the Internal
Revenue Code?   It is found in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 of
the Constitution.   To pass that law, they only needed a majority
vote.   There is  no other way that they could pass laws directly
affecting individuals.   Title 26, the Internal Revenue Code, was
passed as  law for  another nation  (remember our  definition  of
"nation"), but  Title 26  is not  consistent  with  the  Bill  of
Rights.  If you try to fight the IRS, you have no rights  --  the
Code does  not give  you any  of your  constitutional rights.  It
simply says,  "You failed to file an income tax form.  You failed
to perform in some specific manner."

     Remember, under  the Common Law, you are free to do whatever
you want  as long  as you do not infringe upon the life, liberty,
or property  of anyone  else.  If you do not want to perform, you
don't have  to.   The only  way you  can be  compelled to perform
under the  Constitution in  the continental  United States, is if
you have  entered a  contract.   But, if  you  are  not  under  a
contract, you  cannot be  compelled to  perform.   How can you be
compelled to file an income tax form, or any form?

     When Congress  works for  the Republic,  every law it passes
must be  in harmony with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights,
but when Congress works for the Legislative Democracy, any law it
passes becomes  the law  of the  land.   (Remember, Congress  has
exclusive legislative control over federal territory.)

     If you  are charged  with willful  failure to file an income
tax 1040  form, that  is a law for a different nation.  You are a
nonresident alien to that nation.  It is a foreign corporation to
you.   It is  not the  Republic of  the continental united States
coming after  you;   it is  a foreign nation  --  the legislative
democracy of a foreign nation coming after you.

     If you  get a  Notice of  Deficiency from  the IRS,  it is a
presentment from  the federal  United States, so then you can use
the UCC  to dishonor  it, and  you can  also mention that you are
among the  national citizenry  of the  continental united States,
and you  are a  nonresident alien  to the  federal United States.
You never  lived in  a federal  territory and never had an income
from the federal United States.

     Furthermore, you  cannot be  required to  file or  pay taxes
under the  compelled benefit  of using the Federal Reserve Notes,
because you  have reserved  your  rights  under  the  Common  Law
through the Uniform Commercial Code at 1-207.


                 Original Intent of the Founders

     The Founding  Fathers would  never have created a government
that was  going to  boss them  around!   There were  13 sovereign
States.    They  were  nations,  and  they  joined  together  for
protection from  foreign enemies.  They provided a means by which
the union of the sovereign States could fend off foreign enemies.
But, they  never gave  the Congress  of the federal United States
direct rule  over any  Citizen of any State.  They were not going
to be ordered around by that government they set up.


                         Federal Regions

     The supreme  Court has  declared that Congress can rule what
Congress creates.   Congress  did  not  create  the  States,  but
Congress did  create federal  regions.  So, Congress can rule the
federal regions,  but Congress  cannot rule the States.  How have
we been tricked into federal regions?


                       The ZIP Code Trick

     Remember how the government always come to us and says, "I'm
from the  government and  I'm here  to help you."  The government
went out  into the various States and said, "We don't want you to
go to  all that  trouble of  writing three  or  four  letters  to
abbreviate the  name of  the State   --    such  as  'Ariz.'  for
Arizona.   Just write  'AZ' instead  of 'Ariz.'  Or, you can just
write 'WY' for Wyoming, instead of 'Wyo.'"  So, all of the States
of the  union have  got a  new two-letter  abbreviation.   Even a
State such  as Rhode  Island has  a new abbreviation.  It is "RI"
instead of "R.I."  They have just left off the periods.  When you
use a  two-letter State  abbreviation, you are compelled to use a
ZIP code,  because there  are so  many States, for example, which
start with M.  ME is Maine.  MI is Michigan.  How many people dot
every "i"  or make  an "i"  that looks like an "e"?  With MA, MO,
MN, MS,  etc., and  some sloppy  writing, you  could not tell one
from another.   So,  we have to use the ZIP code in order to tell
them apart.   But,  if you  wrote "Mich."  or "Minn." or "Miss.",
there would be no real problem telling which State it was.

(continued in The UCC Connection: Free Yourself from Legal Tyranny  (3/3) )



________________________________________________________________________
Protect your privacy! - Get Freedom 2.0 at http://www.freedom.net




From ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net  Fri Mar  9 17:30:04 2001
From: ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net (ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:30:04 -0500
Subject: The UCC Connection: Free Yourself from Legal Tyranny  (3/3)
Message-ID: <200103100135.f2A1Zb424453@ak47.algebra.com>



     There is  no harm  in using  the ZIP  code, if  you lawfully
identify your  State.   I found out that no State legislature has
met to lawfully change the abbreviation of the State from the old
abbreviation to the new.  Therefore, if you do not use the lawful
abbreviation  for   your  State,   but  use   the   shorter   new
abbreviation, you have to use the ZIP code.

     Look on  page 11  of the ZIP Code Directory and it will tell
you that  the first  digit of your ZIP code is the federal region
in which you reside.  If you use 'AZ' for Arizona, you cannot use
the State  Constitution to  protect  you,  because  you  did  not
identify your  State.   You used  the ZIP  code, which identifies
which federal  region you live in.  And Congress may rule federal
regions directly, but it cannot rule the Citizens of any State.


                       Accommodation Party

     Let's look  at how  the States have become the accommodation
party to  the national debt.  There are many people I have talked
to, including  the Governor,  who are  very concerned about this,
and who know that it could happen very soon.

     If America  is declared  a bankrupt  nation, it  will  be  a
national emergency.  The Federal Emergency Management Agency will
take over,  and anyone  who opposes  the new  government  of  the
creditors can  be sent  to a  detention camp  in Alaska.  We will
have no rights whatsoever.  They have already set up prison camps
with work camps nearby so the people can be used for slave labor.
It could  be the  governors, legislators,  and other  leaders who
would  be   hauled  away   to  Alaska,   while  the   people  now
disenfranchised from  power would likely be chosen to run the new
government.   This could  all happen  very soon,  as the national
debt is  so large  as to  be unpayable.  Even the interest on the
debt is virtually unpayable.

     As I  explained, the  national debt   --   more  than  three
trillion dollars   --   is  not owed  by the  continental  united
States.   It is  the federal  United States that had authority to
borrow bank  credit.   When Congress  worked for  the continental
united States,  it could  only borrow  gold  or  silver,  so  the
national debt  was borrowed  in the  name of  the federal  United
States.   The federal United States has been bankrupt since 1938,
but the  federal United  States  had  to  trap  the  States  into
assuming the debt obligation of the federal debt.

     In  the   Uniform  Commercial   Code,  we   find  the   term
"accommodation  party."6     How   did  the   States  become  the
"accommodation  party"   to  the   federal  debt?    The  federal
government, through  our money  system, made  the States  deal in
Federal Reserve  Notes, which means that everything the States do
is "colorable."    Under  the  "colorable"  jurisdiction  of  the
Uniform Commercial  Code, all of the States are the accommodation
party to the federal debt.

     Now, the  concern is  to find  how we  can get  out of  this
situation.   I told  the Governor that, in the Common Law and the
Law of  Merchants   --  that's the International Law Merchant  --
there is  a term  called no-interest  contract.    A  no-interest
contract is  void and  unenforceable.    What  is  a  no-interest
contract?


                      No-Interest Contract

     If I  were to insure a house that did not belong to me, that
would be  a no-interest contract.  I would just want the house to
burn down.   I  would pay  a small premium, perhaps a few hundred
dollars, and  insure it for 80,000 dollars against fire.  Then, I
would be waiting for it to burn so I could trade my small premium
for $80,000.  Under the Common Law and under international law of
the Law  Merchant, that  is called a no-interest contract, and it
is void and unenforceable in any court.


                    Unconscionable Contracts

     In the  Uniform Commercial  Code, no-interest  contracts are
called unconscionable  contracts.   The section on unconscionable
contracts covers more than forty pages in the Anderson Code.  The
federal  United   States  has   involved  the   States   as   the
accommodation party  to the  federal debt, and I believe we could
prove this  to be an unconscionable contract.  We should get some
litigation into  the courts  before  the  government  declares  a
national emergency,  claiming  that  this  State  has  no  lawful
responsibility for  the national  debt  (of  the  federal  United
States), because  it became  an accommodation  party to this debt
through an  unconscionable contract.   If we have this litigation
before the  courts under  International Law  when the  nation  is
declared bankrupt, the creditors would have to settle this matter
first, and  it would  delay  them.    They  would  want  the  new
government to  appear to  be legitimate,  so they  could not just
move right  in and take over the State, because it would be in an
International Court.  This is very important at this time.


                      Questions and Review

     Note:   These are some of the questions asked after the main
lecture.   Some are  re-statements of material presented earlier,
but  they  contain  very  valuable  information  which  is  worth
repeating.


                      Courtroom Techniques

     Question:  How did you "box in" the Judge?

     This is  easy to  do if  you don't  know too much.  I didn't
know too much, but I boxed them in.  You must play a little dumb.

     If you  are arrested  and you  go into  court, just remember
that in  a criminal action, you have to understand the law, or it
is a  reversible error  for the  court to  try you.  If you don't
understand the law, they can't try you.

     In any  traffic case  or tax case, you are called into court
and the judge reads the law and then asks, "Do you understand the
charges?"
     
Defendant:     No, Your Honor.  I do not.

Judge:    Well,   what's   so   difficult   about   that  charge?
          Either you  drove the  wrong way on a one-way street or
          you didn't.   You  can only  go one way on that street,
          and if  you go the other way, it's a fifty dollar fine.
          What's  so   difficult  about   this  that   you  don't
          understand?

D:        Well, Your  Honor, it's  not the letter of the law, but
          rather the  nature of  the law that I don't understand.
          The Sixth  Amendment of  the Constitution  gives me the
          right to request the court to explain the nature of any
          action against  me, and  upon my request, the court has
          the duty to answer.  I have a question about the nature
          of this action.

J:        Well, what is that  --  what do you want to know?


Always ask  them some  easy questions  first, as this establishes
that they are answering.  You ask:


D:        Well, Your Honor, is this a Civil or a Criminal Action?

J:        It is  criminal.   (If it  were a  civil action,  there
          could be no fine, so it has to be criminal.)

D:        Thank you,  Your Honor,  for telling me that.  Then the
          record will  show that  this action against [your name]
          is a criminal action, is that right?

J:        Yes.

D:        I  would  like  to  ask  another  question  about  this
          criminal action.   There are two criminal jurisdictions
          mentioned in the Constitution:  one is under the Common
          Law, and  the other  deals with  International Maritime
          Contracts, under  an Admiralty Jurisdiction.  Equity is
          civil, and  you said  this is  a Criminal action, so it
          seems it  would have to be under either the Common Law,
          or Maritime  Law.   But what puzzles me, Your Honor, is
          that there  is no  corpus delecti  here that gives this
          court a  jurisdiction over my person and property under
          the Common  Law.   Therefore, it  doesn't appear  to me
          that this court is moving under the Common Law.

J:        No, I can assure you this court is not moving under the
          Common Law.

D:        Well, thank  you, Your  Honor, but  now  you  make  the
          charge against  me even  more difficult  to understand.
          The only  other criminal  jurisdiction would apply only
          if  there   were  an  International  Maritime  Contract
          involved, I  was a  party to  it, it had been breached,
          and  the   court  was   operating   in   an   Admiralty
          Jurisdiction.

          I  don't   believe  I   have  ever   been   under   any
          International Maritime  contract, so  I would deny that
          one exists.   I  would  have  to  demand  that  such  a
          contract, if it does exist, be placed into evidence, so
          that I  may contest  it.  But surely, this court is not
          operating under an Admiralty Jurisdiction.


You just put the words in the judge's mouth.


J:        No. I  can assure  you, we're  not operating  under  an
          Admiralty Jurisdiction.   We're  not out  in the  ocean
          somewhere   --   we're right  here in the middle of the
          State of  [any State].   No,  this is  not an Admiralty
          Jurisdiction.

D:        Thank you,  Your Honor,  but now I am more puzzled than
          ever.   If this  charge is not under the Common Law, or
          under Admiralty   --    and  those  are  the  only  two
          criminal jurisdictions  mentioned in  the  Constitution
          --   what kind  of jurisdiction  could  this  court  be
          operating under?

J:        It's Statutory Jurisdiction.

D:        Oh, thank  you, Your Honor.  I'm glad you told me that.
          But I  have never heard of that jurisdiction.  So, if I
          have to  defend under  that, I  would need  to have the
          Rules of Criminal Procedure for Statutory Jurisdiction.
          Can you tell me where I might find those rules?


There are  no rules for Statutory Jurisdiction, so the judge will
get very angry at this point and say:


J:        If you  want answers  to questions  like that,  you get
          yourself a  licensed attorney.    I'm  not  allowed  to
          practice law from the bench.

D:        Oh, Your  Honor, I  don't think anyone would accuse you
          of practicing  law from  the bench if you just answer a
          few questions  to explain  to me  the  nature  of  this
          action, so that I may defend myself.

J:        I told  you before,  I am  not going to answer any more
          questions.   Do you  understand that?   If  you ask any
          more questions  in regards  to this, I am going to find
          you in  contempt of  court!  Now, if you can't afford a
          licensed attorney, the court will provide you with one.
          But, if you want those questions answered, you must get
          yourself a licensed attorney.

D:        Thank you,  Your Honor,  but let  me just  see if I got
          this straight.

          Has this  court made  a legal determination that it has
          authority to  conduct a criminal action against me, the
          accused, under  a secret  jurisdiction,  the  rules  of
          which  are  known  only  to  this  court  and  licensed
          attorneys, thereby  denying me  the right  to defend my
          own person?


He has  no answer for that.  The judge will probably postpone the
case and  eventually just  let it go.  In this way, you can be as
wise as  a serpent and as harmless as a dove, but you must not go
into court  with a  chip on your shoulder and as a wolf in "black
sheep" country.   Remember Jesus' words, "I send you out as sheep
in wolf  country.   Be as wise as a serpent, and as harmless as a
dove."  Sheep do not attack wolves directly.  Just be an innocent
little lamb  who just  can't understand  the charge, and remember
--   they can't  try you  criminally if  you don't understand the
charge.   That would  be  automatically  a  reversible  error  on
appeal.


                   The Social Security Problem

     If I  were a young man, 18 or 20 years old and just starting
out in  my first  job, I would not want Social Security.  With my
signature on  the application  I would  write, "Without Prejudice
UCC 1-207,"  and I  would reserve my Common Law rights.  But, why
wouldn't I want Social Security today?

     I got  into the  Social Security system in the 1930's, and I
paid into  it dollars  that had  good purchasing power.  Now, I'm
getting a  promised return  in Federal  Reserve Notes  which have
considerably less  value.   For example, in 1940, you could buy a
deluxe Chevrolet  for 800  dollars.  With today's Federal Reserve
Notes, that  won't buy  the rear  fenders  and  trunk  on  a  new
Chevrolet.   If I  were a  young man,  I would  not want  to  put
Federal Reserve  Notes into  Social Security  now, and  get  back
something later  like the German mark after World War I  --  when
it took  a billion  to buy  a loaf  of bread.  They will give you
every Federal  Reserve Note  back that  they promised you, but it
might not buy anything.


                            Assurance

     Under the  Uniform Commercial  Code, you  have the right, in
any agreement,  to demand  a guarantee of performance.  So, don't
go to  them and  say, "I  want  to  rescind  my  Social  Security
number," or "I refuse to take it."  Just take it easy and say, "I
would be  happy to  get a  Social Security  number and enter into
this contract,  but I  have a  little problem.   How  can I  have
assurance before  I enter  into this contract that the purchasing
power of  the Federal  Reserve Notes I get back at the end of the
contract will  be as  good as  the ones  that I  pay  in  at  the
beginning?  They can't guarantee that, and you have a right under
the UCC to assurance of performance under the contract.

     So, tell  them, "Well,  I cannot  enter this contract unless
the government  will guarantee  to pay  me  at  the  end  of  the
contract with  the same  value Federal  Reserve  Notes  that  I'm
paying in.   Both  may be  called Federal  Reserve Notes, but you
know that  these Federal Reserve Notes don't hold their value.  I
want assurance  on this  contract that  the Federal Reserve Notes
that I get in my retirement will buy as much as the ones that I'm
giving to  you now  in my  working years."   They can't make that
guarantee.  If they won't give you that guarantee, just say, "I'd
be glad  to sign  this, but  if you  can't guarantee  performance
under the contract, I'm afraid I cannot enter the contract.

     Now, did  you refuse  or did  they refuse?   You can get the
sections of  the Uniform Commercial Code which grant the right to
have assurance  that  the  contract  you  have  entered  will  be
fulfilled  properly     --    that  the  return  will  equal  the
investment, and  you can  reject the  contract  using  the  Code.
Using their own system of law, you can show that they cannot make
you get  into a  contract of  that nature.   Just  approach  them
innocently like a lamb.

     It is very important to be gentle and humble in all dealings
with the government and the courts  --  never raise your voice or
show anger.   In  the courtroom,  always be  polite and build the
judge up  --  call him "Your Honor."  Give him all the "honor" he
wants.    It  does  no  good  to  be  difficult,  but  rather  be
cooperative and  ask questions  in a  way that leads the judge to
say the things which you need to have in the record.


                       The Court Reporter

     In many  courts, there will be a regular court reporter.  He
gets his  job at  the judge's  pleasure, so  he doesn't  want  to
displease the  judge.   The court  reporter is  sworn to  give an
accurate  transcript   of  every  word  that  is  spoken  in  the
courtroom.   But, if  the judge  makes a  slip of  the tongue, he
turns to  his court  reporter and  says, "I  think you had better
leave that  out of  the transcript;   just say I got a little too
far ahead of you, and you couldn't quite get everything in."  So,
this will be missing from the transcript.

     In one  case, we  brought a  licensed court reporter with us
and the judge got very angry and said, "This court has a licensed
court reporter  right here,  and the record of this court is this
court reporter's  record.  No other court reporter's record means
anything to this court."

     We responded  with, "Of  course, Your Honor, we're certainly
glad to  use your  regular court  reporter.   But, you know, Your
Honor, sometimes things move so fast that a court reporter gets a
little behind,  and doesn't  quite keep up with it all.  Wouldn't
it be  nice if  we had  another licensed  court reporter  in  the
courtroom, just  in case your court reporter got a little behind,
so that  we could  fill in from this other court reporter's data.
I'm sure,  Your Honor,  that you want an accurate transcript.  (I
like to  use the  saying:   give a bad dog a good name, and he'll
live up  to it!)   The  judge went  along with  it, and from that
moment on, he was very careful of what he said.

     These are little tricks to getting around in court.  This is
how to  be as wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove when we
enter into  a  courtroom.    There  are  others  using  the  same
information presented here who end up in jail, handcuffed and hit
over the head, because they approach the situation with a chip on
their shoulder.   They  try to tell the judge what the law is and
that he  is a  no-good scoundrel  and so  on.   Just be  wise and
harmless.


                        UCC 1-207 Review

     It is  so important  to know  and understand  the meaning of
"Without Prejudice  UCC 1-207" in connection with your signature,
that we  should go over this once more.  It is very likely that a
judge will  ask  you  what  it  means.    So,  please  learn  and
understand this carefully:


     The use  of "Without Prejudice UCC 1-207" in connection with
     my signature  indicates that  I have  reserved my Common Law
     right not to be compelled to perform under any contract that
     I  did   not  enter   into   knowingly,   voluntarily,   and
     intentionally.


     And, furthermore,  I do  not accept the liability associated
     with the  compelled benefit  of any  unrevealed contract  or
     commercial agreement.


Once you  state that,  it is  all the judge needs to hear.  Under
the Common  Law, a  contract  must  be  entered  into  knowingly,
voluntarily and  intentionally by  both parties,  or  it  can  be
declared void  and unenforceable.  You are claiming the right not
to be  compelled to  perform under  any contract that you did not
enter into knowingly, voluntarily, and intentionally.  And you do
not accept the liability associated with the compelled benefit of
any unrevealed contract or agreement.


     The compelled  benefit  is  the  privilege  to  use  Federal
Reserve Notes  to discharge  your debts  with limited  liability,
rather than  to pay  your debts  with silver  coins.    It  is  a
compelled  benefit,   because  there   are  no  silver  coins  in
circulation.   You have to eat and you can only buy food with the
medium of  exchange provided  by the  government.   You  are  not
allowed to  print your  own money,  so you  are compelled  to use
theirs.     This  is  the  compelled  benefit  of  an  unrevealed
commercial agreement.   If  you have not made a valid, timely and
explicit reservation  of your  rights under  UCC 1-207,  and  you
simply exercise  this benefit rendered by government, you will be
obligated, under  an implied  agreement7, to  obey every statute,
ordinance and  regulation passed  by government at all levels  --
federal, State and local.


                          In Conclusion

     The editor  of this  transcript has taken great liberties in
putting it  to paper,  in an  effort  to  make  it  readable  and
somewhat compact.   He  wishes to  offer his  gratitude to Howard
Freeman  for   the  opportunity   to  work  with  information  so
absolutely vital  to our  survival as dignified, unenslaved human
beings.   He must  also ask  Mr. Freeman's  forgiveness  for  any
errors committed in getting this in print.

     The purpose  of this  transcript, as stated in the Foreword,
is to  make this knowledge and wisdom available to as many people
as will  take the time and trouble to read it.  It is meant to be
supplemental  to   Mr.  Freeman's   recorded  lectures,   not   a
substitute.   Indeed, there  is no  substitute  for  hearing  him
present this  material in  his own words.  It is not just the law
and the facts that are important here, but the way they are used.
His numerous reminders of Jesus' commission to be "... like sheep
among wolves  ..." cannot  be overstated,  and is  certainly good
advice to  us in  all dealings  --  not just in court or with the
government.   Hearing him explain this in his own words brings to
life the practical application and usefulness of being "wise" and
"harmless."  In fact, after being introduced to this approach, it
becomes difficult  to imagine  that any  other way  of  defending
oneself from the government would be effective.

     It  goes  without  saying  that  none  of  this  information
presented here  is in  any way,  shape or  form offered  as legal
advice.  For that, as you know, you must "get yourself a licensed
attorney."

     Having said  that, I feel obligated to point out that one of
the most  difficult aspects  of dealing  with a licensed attorney
--  even a good one  --  may be knowing just whose side he is on.
(He is, after all, an officer of the court!)  So, for those of us
who have  concluded that  having an  attorney means that you will
soon be  chained, gagged and led to the gallows, this information
may be  indispensable.    For  the  extraordinary  challenges  of
appearing in  court in  one's own  person  --  in propria persona
--   there are  few reliable sources of information.  Learning to
defend ourselves,  that is,  being responsible instead of turning
over one  more area  of our  lives to "professionals," may be the
only way  to have any chance of digging ourselves out of this pit
of legal  tyranny.   Perhaps the  greatest  problem  we  face  in
education today is the matter of widespread legal illiteracy.

     Naturally, there  will always be a number of people who just
don't care about these issues who either:


     (1)  have a  soft life  which is supported and maintained by
          this secret  system of  law and  the institutions which
          have grown  up around  it ("I  can make a bundle buying
          these IRS-seized homes cheap and reselling them."), or

     (2)  don't believe  that anything can be done about it ("You
          can't fight city hall."), or

     (3)  simply don't  have the  energy  or  inclination  to  do
          anything about  it ("That's  nice, but let's see what's
          on TV.").


For those good "citizens," this whole effort may seem useless, or
even threatening.  But, it is this writer's view that God did not
intend for  us to  spend our  lives in  statutory slavery for the
benefit of  a handful  of secret  world manipulators, even if the
"masters" grant  us some  token pleasures  and diversions.  Human
dignity requires much more than entertainment.  The door is there
and the key exists.  We must find it and we must use it to return
to freedom!

     Let us  discover the  mistakes we  have made.   Let  us find
truth.   Let us  apply it  with meekness  and wisdom,  and let us
gently but  firmly reclaim  the precious freedom which we have so
foolishly given up.


                                               September 22, 1991


                      For More Information

     I encourage anyone who is interested enough to read this far
to obtain  a set  of tapes  of Howard  Freeman and listen to them
carefully.   A donation  of $4.00  per tape would be appropriate.
This information  was taken  from tapes  numbered  90-30,  90-31,
90-32 and 90-33, which may be ordered from:


                  America's Promise Ministries
                        c/o P. O. Box 157
                        Sandpoint, Idaho
                      Postal Zone 83864/TDC

                         (208) 265-5405


     The next  set of  tapes (from  1991) are numbered 1004, 1005
and  1006,   and  contain   vital  material  not  found  in  this
transcript.


Footnotes:

1.   Colorable.   That which  is in  appearance only,  and not in
     reality, what it purports to be, hence counterfeit, feigned,
     having the  appearance of  truth.   Black's Law  Dictionary,
     Fifth Edition.

2.   Actually, it  is better  to use a rubber stamp, because this
     demonstrates that  you had  previously reserved your rights.
     The simple  fact that  it takes  several days  or a  week to
     order and  get a  stamp, shows  that you  had reserved  your
     rights before signing the document.

3.   Anderson,  Uniform   Commercial  Code,  Lawyers  Cooperative
     Publishing Company.

4.   It is  very important  to get it into the record that you do
     not understand  the charges.   With  that in the record, the
     court cannot  move forward to judge the facts.  This will be
     covered later on page 19.

5.   For more about this, see page 18.

6.   UCC 3-415.  "Accommodation Party."  One who signs commercial
     paper in any capacity for the purpose of lending his name to
     another party to the instrument.  Such a party is a surety."
     (Surety:   "One who  undertakes to  pay money  or to do some
     other act in the event that his principal fails therein.")

7.   See UCC  1-201.   General Definitions  (3): "Agreement means
     the bargain  of the  parties  in  fact  as  found  in  their
     language  or   by  implication   from  other   circumstances
     including courses,  dealing or  usage of  trade or course of
     performance."


                             #  #  #
      

Return to Table of Contents for

Howard Freeman 




________________________________________________________________________
Protect your privacy! - Get Freedom 2.0 at http://www.freedom.net




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Mar  9 13:14:46 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (drevil at sidereal.kz)
Date: 9 Mar 2001 21:14:46 -0000
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
In-Reply-To: <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>
	(juicy@melontraffickers.com)
References: <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <20010309211446.24170.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>



It was a polite and reasonable post.  I think it's cool that he did
that, and what he said makes sense.  Now I guess I'm an assistant
attorney apologist apologist....




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 20:04:43 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:04:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Export of PDF Decryption code (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010309220439.5925F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:51:32 -0800
From: Raph Levien <raph at acm.org>
To: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: Export of PDF Decryption code

Hi Coderpunks,

   I realize this is, strictly speaking, a political rather than
technical issue, but at least it's directly related to getting
encryption code out there, and I figure that knowledgeable people will
be hanging out here.

   Basically, I want to know under what circumstances we can safely
export PDF decryption code with versions of Ghostscript. We ship
Ghostscript under three licenses: GPL (for older versions), Aladdin
Free Public License (free redistribution but limitations on commercial
products; thus not DFSG), and under proprietary licenses to our OEM
customers.

   Here are some relevant facts:

* The encryption in PDF is 40-bit RC4, with MD5 used to derive the RC4
  key from the user-supplied password.

* Geoffrey Keating in Australia makes a patch available for Ghostscript
  which adds the encryption capability.

* The competing xpdf package (distributed under GPL only) includes
  support for PDF decryption.

   I'd guess that we are allowed to freely distribute 40-bit RC4 with
both the GPL and AFPL versions as long as we cc: the BXA on all
releases, but for the commercial licensing, we'd have to advise our
customers that they need to go through the export licensing process
(no matter how pro forma) before including the code in their products.
Is this correct?

Thanks in advance,

Raph




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Mar  9 22:16:45 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:16:45 -0800
Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks March 2001 Physical Meeting   
  Announcement
In-Reply-To: <OE8pLTkUD5euwdUTaGm000016dc@hotmail.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010308144051.009de070@127.0.0.1>
  <OE8pLTkUD5euwdUTaGm000016dc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05010402b6cf75290249@[207.111.241.39]>


At 7:08 PM -0800 3/7/01, alphabeta121 wrote:
>how far is das bier garten to the mass transit?
>if its less than a 30 min walk i can hoof it.
>

There's a map in the URL in the original message. If that doesn't work, try:

http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=3915+Alpine+Road&city=Portola+Valley&state=CA&slt=37.380900&sln=-122.193900&name=&zip=94028-8001&country=us&BFCat=&BFClient=&mag=8&desc=&cs=9&newmag=7&poititle=&poi=


I make it to be about 2 miles south of the Stanford campus, along 
Alpine Road of course. The Stanford campus is itself quite large, and 
the walk from either the train station or the bus stop on El Camino 
Real is probably 30 minutes just by itself. Probably 4 miles on foot, 
total.

I would offer to give you a lift from either the train station or the 
bus stop, if you could say fairly precisely when you would arrive, 
except that I have no idea who you are. The nym "Lucky Green" I would 
make a point to pick up, but the nym
"alphabeta121 at hotmail.com" will have to make other arrangements.

No offense intended.

I've been to Rossotti's, aka Zott's, aka the Alpine Inn many times. A 
real slice of collegiana.

(This should not be a promise that I will be at Zott's, aka the 
Alpine Inn, tomorrow. I may cancel, given the narcing that is 
becoming more the norm lately. Wouldn't want the expression of my 
opinions to result in a royal command to appear for incrimination at 
a show trial. Some country this has become, eh?)

--Tim May


-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From new at ticketsupport.com  Fri Mar  9 20:45:40 2001
From: new at ticketsupport.com (Cheap Tickets)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:45:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Thank you for registering with Cheap Tickets
Message-ID: <200103100445.WAA15394@sabregroup.com>


**********PLEASE SAVE THIS E-MAIL FOR YOUR RECORDS**********

Dear Joe,

Congratulations on becoming a Cheap Tickets registered
member.  You've just taken the first step to making the most of your
travel budget.

Your login name is: CYPHERPUNKS.  We suggest you save this email as a reminder. You'll
need your login name and password to use some of the services on our site.
Remember, your login name and password are sensitive information! Please protect them
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From directresponsetv at onebox.com  Fri Mar  9 20:13:51 2001
From: directresponsetv at onebox.com (American Telemedia, Inc.)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:13:51 -0500
Subject: Direct Response TV Info Request
Message-ID: <200103100414.XAA06940@mail0.mia.bellsouth.net>


Direct Response TV information request.
 
PLEASE DIRECT THIS TO YOUR VP/DIR OF MARKETING.
 
My name is Rich Ralston, Senior Product Director at American Telemedia(ATI).  
 
ATI is a firm that specializes in identifying and marketing products/services using 
Direct Response television commercials nationwide to generate sales and Leads.  

We are interested in speaking with you about possibly working together in performing a
 90 day television market test with one of your products.  With positive test results, the 
commercial could air nationwide with ATI sharing in the revenues generated by the commercial  in lieu of any
 airtime costs.  ATI provides the airtime and call center with 800/888 telephone number at no cost
 to you. For Lead Generator/Order line commercials an amount per lead is negotiated and paid 
to ATI for each lead.
 
We have visited your website to find that you may  have a line of products or services  that may fit the
 profile to be part of a Test Market Campaign where ATI provides all of the airtime for
 the initial test market at no cost to your company.   After the test, and with favorable
 results, ATI will air the commercial on as many as 517 broadcasters around the country
 with ATI sharing in the profits.

Your company retains all revenue for the duration of the test period.

 Please visit our website where you can find detailed information on this preliminary invitation...

 http://www.directresponsetv.tv .
 
After your review, please give me a call on my direct line at: (212) 894-3747 x7444.
 to discuss the details and procedures.
 
We are now working on projects that will be on air during the Christmas Shopping Season.  

Looking forward to your prompt reply.
 
Sincerely Yours,
Rich Ralston,
Product Director,
American Telemedia, Inc.
directresponsetv at onebox.com 

If your received this message in error and  did not optin for FREE ADVERTISING Please
click here: cleannmachine at yahoo.com and enter remove in the subject line.  ATI is testing a new Web initative 
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From directresponsetv at onebox.com  Fri Mar  9 20:13:51 2001
From: directresponsetv at onebox.com (American Telemedia, Inc.)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:13:51 -0500
Subject: Direct Response TV Info Request
Message-ID: <200103100414.XAA23997@mail3.mia.bellsouth.net>


Direct Response TV information request.
 
PLEASE DIRECT THIS TO YOUR VP/DIR OF MARKETING.
 
My name is Rich Ralston, Senior Product Director at American Telemedia(ATI).  
 
ATI is a firm that specializes in identifying and marketing products/services using 
Direct Response television commercials nationwide to generate sales and Leads.  

We are interested in speaking with you about possibly working together in performing a
 90 day television market test with one of your products.  With positive test results, the 
commercial could air nationwide with ATI sharing in the revenues generated by the commercial  in lieu of any
 airtime costs.  ATI provides the airtime and call center with 800/888 telephone number at no cost
 to you. For Lead Generator/Order line commercials an amount per lead is negotiated and paid 
to ATI for each lead.
 
We have visited your website to find that you may  have a line of products or services  that may fit the
 profile to be part of a Test Market Campaign where ATI provides all of the airtime for
 the initial test market at no cost to your company.   After the test, and with favorable
 results, ATI will air the commercial on as many as 517 broadcasters around the country
 with ATI sharing in the profits.

Your company retains all revenue for the duration of the test period.

 Please visit our website where you can find detailed information on this preliminary invitation...

 http://www.directresponsetv.tv .
 
After your review, please give me a call on my direct line at: (212) 894-3747 x7444.
 to discuss the details and procedures.
 
We are now working on projects that will be on air during the Christmas Shopping Season.  

Looking forward to your prompt reply.
 
Sincerely Yours,
Rich Ralston,
Product Director,
American Telemedia, Inc.
directresponsetv at onebox.com 

If your received this message in error and  did not optin for FREE ADVERTISING Please
click here: cleannmachine at yahoo.com and enter remove in the subject line.  ATI is testing a new Web initative 
and we are still working the bugs out.  Thank You Very Much




From directresponsetv at onebox.com  Fri Mar  9 20:13:52 2001
From: directresponsetv at onebox.com (American Telemedia, Inc.)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:13:52 -0500
Subject: Direct Response TV Info Request
Message-ID: <200103100414.XAA06950@mail0.mia.bellsouth.net>


Direct Response TV information request.
 
PLEASE DIRECT THIS TO YOUR VP/DIR OF MARKETING.
 
My name is Rich Ralston, Senior Product Director at American Telemedia(ATI).  
 
ATI is a firm that specializes in identifying and marketing products/services using 
Direct Response television commercials nationwide to generate sales and Leads.  

We are interested in speaking with you about possibly working together in performing a
 90 day television market test with one of your products.  With positive test results, the 
commercial could air nationwide with ATI sharing in the revenues generated by the commercial  in lieu of any
 airtime costs.  ATI provides the airtime and call center with 800/888 telephone number at no cost
 to you. For Lead Generator/Order line commercials an amount per lead is negotiated and paid 
to ATI for each lead.
 
We have visited your website to find that you may  have a line of products or services  that may fit the
 profile to be part of a Test Market Campaign where ATI provides all of the airtime for
 the initial test market at no cost to your company.   After the test, and with favorable
 results, ATI will air the commercial on as many as 517 broadcasters around the country
 with ATI sharing in the profits.

Your company retains all revenue for the duration of the test period.

 Please visit our website where you can find detailed information on this preliminary invitation...

 http://www.directresponsetv.tv .
 
After your review, please give me a call on my direct line at: (212) 894-3747 x7444.
 to discuss the details and procedures.
 
We are now working on projects that will be on air during the Christmas Shopping Season.  

Looking forward to your prompt reply.
 
Sincerely Yours,
Rich Ralston,
Product Director,
American Telemedia, Inc.
directresponsetv at onebox.com 

If your received this message in error and  did not optin for FREE ADVERTISING Please
click here: cleannmachine at yahoo.com and enter remove in the subject line.  ATI is testing a new Web initative 
and we are still working the bugs out.  Thank You Very Much




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar  9 21:21:47 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:21:47 -0600
Subject: The Register - biometric monitoring enhances privacy (yeah right)
Message-ID: <3AA9B9EB.55138FFF@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17496.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Mar  9 16:23:28 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (drevil at sidereal.kz)
Date: 10 Mar 2001 00:23:28 -0000
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
In-Reply-To: <200103100015.TAA21988@www.subdimension.com> (message from
	brainteaser on Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:15:19 -0500)
References: <200103100015.TAA21988@www.subdimension.com>
Message-ID: <20010310002328.25502.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>


> > I think it might have something to do with your Bible-crypto theory. 
> > Even this low-grade cipher is certain to befuddle the cryptoanalytic 
> > attacks of law enforcement agencies which have long-ignored the value 
> > of a liberal arts education. To their great woe, they have cultivated 
> > an exploitable weakness.
> 
> 
> Certain to befuddle, that seems overly-strong. Why should no one in
> law enforcement agencies have studied old English literature? A
> quick search could tell anyone what to read if they had a reason
> to. Thats assuming there is a deeper message than the one written in
> Ye Olde Englishe.

Or, more accurately, "A quick search could tell anyone what to read if
HE had a reason to."  In New and Old English.




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Sat Mar 10 01:08:26 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:08:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Robb Joins the Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <20010310022515.B2704@cluebot.com> from "Declan McCullagh" at Mar 10, 2001 02:25:15 AM
Message-ID: <200103100908.f2A98QN24730@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Declan McCullagh wrote:

>> I guess Declan must feel that as long as it's James Dalton Bell, and
>> his elderly parents, who are the only likely victims of the anal
>> plungering such comments engender, that it's great journalistic fun to
>> put "Cypherpunk Terrorist Vows Revenge" articles at the top of Wired
>> News to celebrate Bell's release from coercive mistreatment at the
>> hands of the state apparatus.

> That wasn't the headline, and in any case I don't write headlines
> for my articles.

Since I said "articles," which is plural, and each article has its own
headline, I think it should be clear to the clueful reader that the single
descriptive phrase "Cypherpunk Terrorist Vows Revenge" was an opinion of
the tone of the articles, as opposed to their actual captions.  My
apologies if this was unclear.

> If anyone was in a position to object to the article -- which you seem
> to think is unfair to Bell -- it was in fact Bell, and he did not.

I'm not sure Bell is the arbiter of how well the articles you wrote
address the real issues of the case.  Bell could very well be happy with
endless articles talking about himself, and saying nothing about the
issues, and this would not suggest that Bell was all-important and the
issues were not.

I quite frankly find it embarrassing that the US government's search for
genuine terrorists has gone so poorly that it must manufacture them from
tax protestors who live at home with their elderly parents, and itinerant
musicians with Tourette's Syndrome.

Add to this government shills screaming in mock horror that a chemist was
actually found in possession of (gasp) Nitric Acid, and I think an article
which doesn't at least question how much the taxpapers are being billed
for this expensive continuing circus, and for what degree of protection
against what probable terrorist acts, kind of misses its mark.

Granted, your articles don't rise to the level of the US News and World
Report distortion of the Bell case, which deliberately gave the impression
that early concerns over Bell's rights being violated were misplaced, and
that in retrospect, the government saved us all from destruction at Bell's
hands in a massive terrorist attack by arresting him just in the nick of
time.

Nonetheless, I think you could have done a better job of shining light on
the more sordid aspects of the government's case, the harmlessness of
Bell, and pointing that the charges against Bell were place-holders for
the real goal of intimidating him into not continuing to exercise his
First Amendment rights in ways the government didn't like.

The US Government claims it has no political prisoners, because the law
books of the United States have no purely political crimes.  Of course
this is false, and political prisoners in the United States are simply
convicted of non-political crimes, with evidence of their political acts
being introduced to poison the outcome of their trials, after which
exceptional sentences are imposed, again using their political acts as
justification.

Pulling such antics off is not particularly hard.   You just need enough
laws to ensure that everyone is guilty of something, in case they rock the
boat and need to be dealt with. 

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  9 23:21:33 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:21:33 -0500
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010309170900.5925o-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 05:10:31PM -0600
References: <20010309174359.C30209@cluebot.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010309170900.5925o-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010310022133.A2704@cluebot.com>


Again, Jim is habitually confused. The regulations he believes are
unconstitutional are in fact the constitutional ones (they protect
journalists, although they do not go as far in their definition as
some would like). The rules he should be upset about lie elsewhere
int he law.

-Declan


On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 05:10:31PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Why should they? Such regulations are unconstitutional. There is no
> distinction in the 1st about owners and employees of commercial news
> agencies, only presses (ie persons who own mechanisms to distribute
> information to a community at large).
> 
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > David's comments in his response are on-target.
> > 
> > In this context, the only definition that seems to matter is what the DOJ
> > believes to be a "member of the news media." In other words, if they say
> > you're not, you likely would shoulder the burden to prove that you are.
> > 
> > Even if they acknowledge you are a journalist, the DOJ clearly does not
> > feel bound to follow its own regulations.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>         Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
> 
>                                                        Locke
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar  9 23:25:15 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:25:15 -0500
Subject: Robb Joins the Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <200103100047.f2A0lbI24137@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 04:47:37PM -0800
References: <200103100047.f2A0lbI24137@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20010310022515.B2704@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 04:47:37PM -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
> I guess Declan must feel that as long as it's James Dalton Bell, and his
> elderly parents, who are the only likely victims of the anal plungering
> such comments engender, that it's great journalistic fun to put
> "Cypherpunk Terrorist Vows Revenge" articles at the top of Wired News to
> celebrate Bell's release from coercive mistreatment at the hands of the
> state apparatus.

That wasn't the headline, and in any case I don't write headlines
for my articles.

If anyone was in a position to object to the article -- which you seem
to think is unfair to Bell -- it was in fact Bell, and he did not. As
you can tell from my published articles, I interviewed him after that
time.

-Declan




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Mar 10 07:53:39 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 07:53:39 -0800
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
In-Reply-To: <003e01c0a901$6eabfb00$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>
References: <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>
 <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>
 <20010309211446.24170.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
 <200103092156.QAA20801@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
 <20010309174929.B30583@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010310075339.007e6440@pop.sprynet.com>


At 04:28 PM 3/9/01 -0900, Daniel J. Boone wrote:
>> I wonder if John Young is a journalist, and needs to have his
>> subponea approved by John Ashcroft too...
>
>I don't know John Young, but I've visited Cryptome and seen his postings
>here.  I'd say he's a journalist by any reasonable standard.  Doubt the DoJ
>agrees, though.
>
>-- Daniel

He's a journalist when he writes (original, copyrighted content)
and an editor when he collects, and a publisher when you browse.

.....
We are all reporters, we are all book sellers. We are all first class objects.
--Tim May

.......


 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Mar 10 08:13:04 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 08:13:04 -0800
Subject: DeCSS-ed mice
In-Reply-To: <001e01c0a967$76db8f00$0500a8c0@gamer>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010310081304.007e1410@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:27 PM 2/24/01 +0100, Predrag wrote:
>well, they could well be
>

Actually there was an IP battle fought over mice.  See, some mice cost
$150 a pop, and at the same time, mice are easy to copy.  And the community
of mouse-users (aka biologists) likes to share.

In the end, the NIH (the largest buyer of these specialty mice) used its
leverage
to allow biologists to share without legal hassles while also protecting the 
interests of the mouse manufacturers who were asserting their IP.


.......


 






  







From ludasergeevna at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 21:33:41 2001
From: ludasergeevna at yahoo.com (Felix)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 08:33:41 +0300
Subject: =?windows-1251?Q?Re:_=C2=FB_=ED=E5_=EE=E4=E8=ED,_=EA=F2=EE_=F5=EE=F7=E5=F2_=FD=F2=EE_=F1=E4=E5=EB=E0=F2=FC!?=
Message-ID: <200103100530.VAA28548@cyberpass.net>




Вы не один, кто хочет улучшить свое благосостояние!

Не надо искать сложных путей решения ваших финансовых проблем. 
Подумайте головой, ведь деньги вертятся вокруг  вас, надо просто суметь их взять!
Только ленивый бывает бедным.

Условие - уметь или научиться работать с электронными денежными счетами и
совсем малость разбираться в бухгалтерии. Все.

Не поленитесь, зайдите на наш SITE, 
уверен останетесь довольны, информация еще никому не мешала.

http://incolor.hypermart.net/stats

mailto:mlmcolor at yahoo.com Феликс.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 10 06:41:08 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 08:41:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists
In-Reply-To: <20010310022133.A2704@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010310082509.5925H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Again, Jim is habitually confused. The regulations he believes are

Really? Where is it then?

                                 Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The regulations draw a distinction that is not recognized in 'equal under
the law'.

A democracy (at least this one) is SUPPOSED to provide equal protection
under the law. The referenced regulations don't do that. They draw a
distinction based on a COMMERCIAL yardstick and that is most certainly
unconstitutional. There is a reason that the Constitution doesn't mention
business except in one clause - IT ISN'T IMPORTANT TO A WELL ORDERED
DEMOCRACY.

Some Jefferson quotes:

The Press -

No Government outght to be without censors; and when the press is free, no
one ever will. Nature has given to man no other means of sifting out the
truth either in religion, law, or politics. I think it as honorable to the
government neither to know nor notice sycophants or censors as it would be
indignified and criminal to pampter the former and persecute the latter.

Newspapers -

At a very early period in my life I determined never to put a sentence in
any newspaper. I have religiously adhered to the resolution through my
life and have great reason to be content with it. Were I to undertake to
answer the calumnies of the newspapers it would be more than all my time
and twenty aids could effect. For, while I should be answering one, twenty
new ones would be invented. I have thought it better to trust to the
justice of my countrymen that they would judge me by what they see of my
conduct on the stage where they have placed me.

'calumnies' means slander.

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Sat Mar 10 02:28:10 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:28:10 +0000
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
References: <200103100015.TAA21988@www.subdimension.com> <20010310002328.25502.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3AAA01B9.92E65D35@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


drevil at sidereal.kz wrote:
> 
> > > I think it might have something to do with your Bible-crypto theory.
> > > Even this low-grade cipher is certain to befuddle the cryptoanalytic
> > > attacks of law enforcement agencies which have long-ignored the value
> > > of a liberal arts education. To their great woe, they have cultivated
> > > an exploitable weakness.
> >
> >
> > Certain to befuddle, that seems overly-strong. Why should no one in
> > law enforcement agencies have studied old English literature? A
> > quick search could tell anyone what to read if they had a reason
> > to. Thats assuming there is a deeper message than the one written in
> > Ye Olde Englishe.
> 
> Or, more accurately, "A quick search could tell anyone what to read if
> HE had a reason to."  In New and Old English.

Nope. Old English had a large number of pronouns we don't. "anyone ... 
they" might actually be nearer to the Old English than "anyone ... he"
which is a modern English construction. I don't know enough Old English
to know what the normal word in this context would have been. I suspect
it would have been either "hwaet" or "man" but I know it was at least
sometimes "the" or "thu" which could (arguably) have survived into
modern  colloquial English orally as "they" whilst being suppressed from
the formal written language by the early modern fashion for prescriptive
Latinity. Either way, "tell anyone what to read if they had a reason to"
is perfectly good English, it is a construction that was used by Malory,
and Chaucer, and Shakespeare and objecting to it in this way is false
pedantry. 

 
Also "anyone ... he" is (in England at any rate) rather formal. "anyone
... they" would have been more common in my childhood, but the most
common way of saying it would have been "tell you what to read if you
had" with no implication that it really meant you yourself.  The "he"
form is something we were supposed to learn at school, along with not
saying "ain't" (which we didn't much anyway) and "innit" (which we did,
and I do, all the time). If you went to a posh school you were taught to
say "one" instead of "you" or "they". ("If one went to a posh school one
was taught..."). That might have got you beaten up at my primary school,
certainly laughed at.  "

But then I'm from the south of England, in'I? And I'm fed up with people
telling me that something that has been a part of my language for over a
thousand years should now be abandoned because it is supposedly an
innovation. 

Or is it just that when you said "Old English" you really meant "Early
Modern English"? :-)

Ken Brown 

"Hige sceal ~e heardra, heorte ~e cenre, mod sceal ~e mare, ~e ure mfgen
lytlap."




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 10 09:12:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:12:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010310075339.007e6440@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010310111203.5925S-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



He has a digital 'press' in cryptome.org just like ssz.com or pgp.net.

Every one of these sites should be accorded the protection of the
Constitution without question.

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 04:28 PM 3/9/01 -0900, Daniel J. Boone wrote:
> >> I wonder if John Young is a journalist, and needs to have his
> >> subponea approved by John Ashcroft too...
> >
> >I don't know John Young, but I've visited Cryptome and seen his postings
> >here.  I'd say he's a journalist by any reasonable standard.  Doubt the DoJ
> >agrees, though.
> >
> >-- Daniel
> 
> He's a journalist when he writes (original, copyrighted content)
> and an editor when he collects, and a publisher when you browse.
> 
> .....
> We are all reporters, we are all book sellers. We are all first class objects.
> --Tim May
> 
> .......
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 10 09:31:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:31:10 -0600
Subject: Law shelters AOL from child porn suit - Tech News - CNET.com
Message-ID: <3AAA64DE.46A4E4FB@ssz.com>


http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-5075352.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 10 09:37:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:37:16 -0600
Subject: Eurofile: EU suppression of criticism smacks of fascism
Message-ID: <3AAA664C.76D98A77@ssz.com>


http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000157380504876&rtmo=3SSmwxBM&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/01/3/10/wfile10.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 10 12:33:25 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:33:25 -0800
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010301175325.5925l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <ad691c928d3f8eaa4123fa26e55cb36b@mixmaster.shinn.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010310122859.009eb090@idiom.com>


At 06:16 PM 03/01/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Technology wise, I'm real keen on the Hydrogen Peroxide Catalyst engines,
>especially Platinum catalyst. Platinum is problematic, rare & expensive.
>Say 1 out of 1,000 potential hobbyist can afford it. Hydrogen Peroxide
>can at least theoretically be done in a garage lab, so we'll leave this
>1-1 for now.

Platinum costs vary, but I've never seen it above $500/oz,
and I think it's more often about $300, e.g. about the price of
good marijuana, which far more than 1 in 1000 hobbyists can afford :-)
How much of it do you need for a can-sat engine's catalyst?

That's separate from questions of whether it's easy to work with,
or whether you can get the catalyst into the form you need,
e.g. wire mesh or particles spread on fiberglass or whatever.






From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 10 12:36:28 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:36:28 -0800
Subject: Slashdot | The Future of Copy Control
In-Reply-To: <20010303011033.A3451@cluebot.com>
References: <3A942EB9.985070E@dev.tivoli.com>
 <3A942EB9.985070E@dev.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010310123404.009e5d30@idiom.com>


At 01:10 AM 03/03/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Might it be possible for individuals who care to sign up to receive
>Slashdot headlines via email or, heaven forfend, go to the site themselves
>without cluttering up cpunx with Choatian one-liners?
>
>Censorially yours,
>Declan

That's an easy job for a mail filter in most mail user agents.
From: contains Choate and Message-Body contains slashdot.org -> Trash.
It's not like there's no other clutter in Cpunks...








From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 10 12:41:18 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:41:18 -0800
Subject: The Register - Has the NSA broken EU encryption?
In-Reply-To: <3AA96426.FCA135C4@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010310123701.009e9480@idiom.com>


At 05:15 PM 03/09/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17492.html


I'm puzzled by this whole thing.  Somebody's alleging that the
EU's Really Important Secrets are protected by an EU algorithm,
and that some EU employee ratted them out to the NSA,
and the NSA and EU are both denying it.

What secrets does "the EU" have?
Shouldn't they be operating mostly in public?
Why would they use a cryptosystem that was easily broken,
(other than GSM mobile phones, of course),
rather than a decently strong cryptosystem where the
main problem is theft of keys from the relevant users?

It all sounds pretty bogus.






From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 10 13:17:10 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:17:10 -0800
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
In-Reply-To: <20010309174929.B30583@cluebot.com>
References: <200103092156.QAA20801@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
 <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>
 <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>
 <20010309211446.24170.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
 <200103092156.QAA20801@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010310130656.009f48d0@idiom.com>


At 05:49 PM 03/09/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I sent a message to the cypherpunks list that quoted from DOJ
>regulations. Robb, apparently a cypherpunk subscriber, replied
>to that message but removed the Subject: line.

Entertaining.....
(And I'd attribute the lack of Subject: line to incompetence with
mail user agents rather than to malice.)

>I wonder if John Young is a journalist, and needs to have his
>subponea approved by John Ashcroft too...

JYA is very definitely a Journalist, but in a newer
internet-related form that Fed procedures may not have caught up with.
Declan, on the other hand, works for one or more traditional press
companies, so he fits in the Journalist bureaucratic pigeonhole,
even though some of his press companies are mainly online.
While I mostly agree with Tim's views that the First Amendment
doesn't carve out special civil rights for journalists,
governments do generally distinguish between categories like
"works for a big enough press company that we might get flamed
in front of a large audience if we harass him, and they've got lawyers",
unlike journalists who work for small rantzines (no slack for them),
or freelancers like JYA.

Still, it might be fun to harass the Feds for not following their
own procedures in subpoenaing JYA, though that's pretty irrelevant
to the case itself since they're mostly Bureau CYA rather than due process.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 10 13:51:00 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:51:00 -0800
Subject: FC: MIT programmers create 7-line Perl app that decrypts
  DVDs
In-Reply-To: <20010307174518.C21817@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010310134347.00a20bd0@idiom.com>


DVD CSS decoding in 7 lines of perl is a cute hack,
but it doesn't accomplish one of the main goals of DVDCSS,
which is to explain the structure of the lame crypto algorithm.
Even if you unwrap this to put the white space back,
it's dense unreadable line noise.

At 05:45 PM 03/07/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,42259,00.html
>    CAMBRIDGE, Mass. -- Descrambling DVDs just got even easier, thanks to
>    a pair of MIT programmers.
>    Using only seven lines of Perl code, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz
>    have created the shortest-yet method to remove the thin layer of
>    encryption that is designed to prevent people -- including Linux users
>    -- from watching DVDs without proper authorization.
>....
>#!/usr/bin/perl -w
># 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz <sipb-iap-dvd at mit.edu>
># MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout
># arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order
>$_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=(
>$m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72, at z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16
>-2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0, at z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h
>=5;$_=unxb24,join"", at b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$
>d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^
>$d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^
>(($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for at a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*", at a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval








From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 10 12:12:39 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:12:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: VeriSign to keep the .com registry? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010310141231.5925V-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:49:10 -0400
From: Ian Grigg <iang at systemics.com>
To: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: VeriSign to keep the .com registry?

http://www.icann.org/melbourne/proposed-verisign-agreements-topic.htm

Has anybody looked at the ICANN proposal to let VeriSign keep hold
of the .com registry servers?

Apparently NSI under VeriSign has been behaving itself, so ICANN are
wondering if they could just forget all that nasty separation stuff.

But, they do not mention anywhere the conflict of interest that will
arise if the biggest certificate seller is also the biggest registry.

I'm not sure how the DNS security discussions are going, but it would
seem that there is a conflict of interest in having VeriSign able to
influence the registry whilst also being a seller of domain certs.

Comments anyone?  (by this monday :)

(I know this is nothing to do with coding, but it does seem that
coderpunks has the greater concentration of people who understand
the security issues involved...)

-- 
iang




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Sat Mar 10 06:31:04 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:31:04 +0000
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
References: <200103100015.TAA21988@www.subdimension.com> <20010310002328.25502.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz> <3AAA01B9.92E65D35@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3AAA3AA8.BFA2E87F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Ken Brown wrote:

[... boring rant snipped ...]

> Ken Brown
> 
> "Hige sceal ~e heardra, heorte ~e cenre, mod sceal ~e mare, ~e ure mfgen
> lytlap."

I should have known better than to cut & paste straight from a text with
thorns in it.  That little sig would have better been:

"Hige sceal the heardra, heorte the cenre, mod sceal the mare, the ure
maegen lytlath."




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 10 13:05:00 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:05:00 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | 2001 Big Brother Awards Announced
Message-ID: <3AAA96FC.3D2C8A52@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/10/1652237.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 10 13:06:35 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:06:35 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | AOL Germany Found Guilty of Piracy
Message-ID: <3AAA975B.6C1C1CEE@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/10/1431212.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From becky at mbanews.com  Sat Mar 10 13:34:45 2001
From: becky at mbanews.com (Becky)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:34:45 -0600
Subject: corporate espionage
Message-ID: <3AAA9DF5.F1657221@mbanews.com>

Read your article.  Most of the examples involve pharm companies.  I am
interested in examples that involve a prime companies that have an
outsourcing relationship.  Any thoughts?
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From becky at mbanews.com  Sat Mar 10 14:27:45 2001
From: becky at mbanews.com (Becky)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:27:45 -0600
Subject: corporate espionage
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010310163606.5925a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AAAAA61.3621211C@mbanews.com>

I was doing an internet search on cor esp.  your article was on my hit list.
At this point I cannot recall the page.  Are you the right person for the
subject?

Jim Choate wrote:

> Hi Becky,
>
> Which if the several hundred subscribers to the 8+ CDR nodes and
> potentialy thousands of associated webpages might you be refering to?
>
> You seem to have a fuzzy understanding of the concept 'mailing list'.
>
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Becky wrote:
>
> > Read your article.  Most of the examples involve pharm companies.  I am
> > interested in examples that involve a prime companies that have an
> > outsourcing relationship.  Any thoughts?
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>         Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
>
>                                                        Locke
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Mar 10 14:38:22 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:38:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: corporate espionage
In-Reply-To: <3AAA9DF5.F1657221@mbanews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010310163606.5925a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi Becky,

Which if the several hundred subscribers to the 8+ CDR nodes and
potentialy thousands of associated webpages might you be refering to?

You seem to have a fuzzy understanding of the concept 'mailing list'.

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Becky wrote:

> Read your article.  Most of the examples involve pharm companies.  I am
> interested in examples that involve a prime companies that have an
> outsourcing relationship.  Any thoughts?

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Mar 10 15:08:23 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:08:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: corporate espionage
In-Reply-To: <3AAAAA61.3621211C@mbanews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010310170220.5925b-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Ok, let me say this again....

You are sending a note to a distributed mailing list. It has 8 core nodes
with each node hosting their own set of independent subscribers. The total
number of subscribers is potentaily several hundred. You are acting like
you're sending a note to an individual. You are NOT. I happen to be the 
operator of the ssz.com node and I'm trying to get you to understand that
you're request is worthless as worded. ssz.com is NOT the same computer
(not even in the same state) as cyberpass.net. We simply share cross-feeds
on our traffic.

If you would like more info as to why, please visit:

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

The Cypherpunks are a group of people discussing cryptography, civil
liberty, and economics. If you're question is in one of those areas then
feel free to expand upon your problem. If not you should probably go
someplace else.

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Becky wrote:

> I was doing an internet search on cor esp.  your article was on my hit list.
> At this point I cannot recall the page.  Are you the right person for the
> subject?
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Hi Becky,
> >
> > Which if the several hundred subscribers to the 8+ CDR nodes and
> > potentialy thousands of associated webpages might you be refering to?
> >
> > You seem to have a fuzzy understanding of the concept 'mailing list'.
> >
> > On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Becky wrote:
> >
> > > Read your article.  Most of the examples involve pharm companies.  I am
> > > interested in examples that involve a prime companies that have an
> > > outsourcing relationship.  Any thoughts?

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From nonovv at kimo.com  Sat Mar 10 01:47:14 2001
From: nonovv at kimo.com (nonovv)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:47:14 +0800
Subject: =?big5?B?p9qtbrZS?=
Message-ID: <3AA9F822.B8859C8D@kimo.com>


我有六千一百萬筆最新Email名單

我用無碼15片跟你換好嗎
地址..宜蘭縣礁溪鄉6結村興農路2巷2號
0925101366




From plad2ad at mail.com  Sat Mar 10 19:11:16 2001
From: plad2ad at mail.com (plad2ad at mail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:11:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Easiest Way for Profitable HOME WORK!                                                                                                                   . -CHNE
Message-ID: <200103110311.TAA10683@cyberpass.net>


The Easiest Way for Profitable HOME WORK!

- I am contracted from home to simply place FREE classified advertising.
- I am paid $1+ PER Response to every ad that I place. 
- No one even has to purchase anything from the ads - just respond!
- No Sponsoring requirements
- Spillover is already happening
- unlimited $10 + $0.5 referral bonuses
- Only $49.95 to get started
- Real $2500-4000 per month

Email me for more information at: rw1vic at yahoo.com
or go to:
http://www.virtue.nu/ad2plad/
http://ad2plad.jobarecords.net
http://www.geocities.com/ad2plad/

How does this work? There is an advertising firm who is hired by various
businesses to design & implement Ad campaigns. The easiest way for them to
do this is through profitable classified ads.
Each week as an Ad Placer you will be sent various ads to place for
different companies. Our only obligation is to place the ads. NO Selling of
any products and NO correspondence. All replies are sent directly to
advertising firm or their clients, you will NEVER have to handle any mail or
correspond with replies.
Just place the ads and get paid!

To make this even better, advertising firm is offering positions of 
Recruitment Supervisors to hire and manage homeworkers. I am a
professional Ad Placer as well as a Recruitment Supervisor. This is where a
lot of profit can be made because not only will you be paid $1 for every
response that will received from Your ads 
BUT also $0.5 for EVERY Response received from ads by
anyone that You and your 5 levels deep downline recruit to place ads from home!

IT's EASY! Just Place client's ads that will provided on the FREE Internet
Sites and/or in print. You are paid PER RESPONSE - no one
has to buy anything from the ads - just respond. NO CATCHES! Easy &
Profitable! Start TODAY!

Email me for more information at: rw1vic at yahoo.com
or go to:
http://www.virtue.nu/ad2plad/
http://ad2plad.jobarecords.net
http://www.geocities.com/ad2plad/

Your earning potential is great! I know that you may have a lot of
questions so go to URLs
or feel free to email me rw1vic at yahoo.com with any questions or concerns
that you may have. I have nothing to hide and you have everything to gain!

Welcome to the profitable Ad Placement Program!
********************************************************************
Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email 
may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply 
with the word REMOVE in the subject line.





From edwintan9 at time.net.my  Sat Mar 10 04:59:01 2001
From: edwintan9 at time.net.my (Cash Machine Enterprises)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:59:01 +0800
Subject: FREE CASH For Malaysian. Good Cash In Simple Way.
Message-ID: <200103101250.EAA15224@toad.com>


Hello Friend;

WELCOME TO

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* There is no more waiting for your cash to accumulate until the paid 
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* Check our email as often as you like, if you lucky, you will get a big 
cash.
* The Cash will be minimum of RM100.00 up to thousands depending on what 
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include those who miss to claim the CASH they have won. 

Note: Those who do not reply to claim their cash within 9 day of the cash 
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In-order for the cash to grow into a larger cash, kindly forward this Email 
to all your friend and associate to send in their participation by putting 
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From plad2ad at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 21:18:15 2001
From: plad2ad at hotmail.com (plad2ad at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:18:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Easiest Way for Profitable HOME WORK!                                                                                                                   . -KMCA
Message-ID: <200103110518.VAA13194@cyberpass.net>


The Easiest Way for Profitable HOME WORK!

- I am contracted from home to simply place FREE classified advertising.
- I am paid $1+ PER Response to every ad that I place. 
- No one even has to purchase anything from the ads - just respond!
- No Sponsoring requirements
- Spillover is already happening
- unlimited $10 + $0.5 referral bonuses
- Only $49.95 to get started
- Real $2500-4000 per month

Email me for more information at: rw1vic at yahoo.com
or go to:
http://www.virtue.nu/ad2plad/
http://ad2plad.jobarecords.net
http://www.geocities.com/ad2plad/

How does this work? There is an advertising firm who is hired by various
businesses to design & implement Ad campaigns. The easiest way for them to
do this is through profitable classified ads.
Each week as an Ad Placer you will be sent various ads to place for
different companies. Our only obligation is to place the ads. NO Selling of
any products and NO correspondence. All replies are sent directly to
advertising firm or their clients, you will NEVER have to handle any mail or
correspond with replies.
Just place the ads and get paid!

To make this even better, advertising firm is offering positions of 
Recruitment Supervisors to hire and manage homeworkers. I am a
professional Ad Placer as well as a Recruitment Supervisor. This is where a
lot of profit can be made because not only will you be paid $1 for every
response that will received from Your ads 
BUT also $0.5 for EVERY Response received from ads by
anyone that You and your 5 levels deep downline recruit to place ads from home!

IT's EASY! Just Place client's ads that will provided on the FREE Internet
Sites and/or in print. You are paid PER RESPONSE - no one
has to buy anything from the ads - just respond. NO CATCHES! Easy &
Profitable! Start TODAY!

Email me for more information at: rw1vic at yahoo.com
or go to:
http://www.virtue.nu/ad2plad/
http://ad2plad.jobarecords.net
http://www.geocities.com/ad2plad/

Your earning potential is great! I know that you may have a lot of
questions so go to URLs
or feel free to email me rw1vic at yahoo.com with any questions or concerns
that you may have. I have nothing to hide and you have everything to gain!

Welcome to the profitable Ad Placement Program!
********************************************************************
Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email 
may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply 
with the word REMOVE in the subject line.





From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sat Mar 10 20:19:49 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:19:49 -0600
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists | Confidential
  source agreements
In-Reply-To: <20010310022133.A2704@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEAJCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Even the most aggressive of news organizations roll-over, often contrary to
their internal policies. It is their token defense of journalists that has
led to the continued erosion of shield laws and the First Amendment. (I
don't know that Declan is a member of the subpo club yet, but I'm sure the
opportunity will present itself.)

[IS IT PRESS?]
Choate said:
> He has a digital 'press' in cryptome.org just like ssz.com or pgp.net.
> Every one of these sites should be accorded the protection of the
> Constitution without question.

But all speech is not equal. In fact, there is precedent running the other
direction. (Indeed, Jim, precedent runs in the other direction for most of
your arguments. I don't mean this disrespectfully.) For example, media
defined as "persons who gather and disseminate news on an ongoing basis as
part of the organized, traditional, mass media." Matera v. Superior Court,
170 Ariz. 446, 448, 825 P.2d 971, 973 (Ct. App. 1992) (holding that
professional author writing a book about the "AzScam" sting operation was
not a member of the media and thus was not protected by the shield statute).
First Amendment mileage in your state may vary. Nontraditional media, such
as online collaborative media, might not receive the benefit of state shield
statutes. Other sites might be seen as collections, rather than "media." It
probably wouldn't hurt to construct a web site, both in form and content, in
a fashion designed to give one the best shot at the benefit of state shield
laws (where applicable) and weighty First Amendment press considerations.

[CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE STATUS - Related topic]
Many of you work in sensitive positions, or are otherwise close to
controversy. The following are considerations for a confidential
reporter-source agreement, which I thought might be of tangential interest
(many reporters won't deal with "nym sources":

o confidential source (not "off the record")
o reporter's scope of authority/authorization to commit (maybe it's an
intern)
o one-time or continuing reporter-source agreement
o ID disclosure to editor (and do you trust THIS GUY?)
o use of attribution
o use of quotes (normally, you want them to paraphrase you)
o indicia of affiliation, sex, and other identifying characteristics
o public disclosure of your motive/interest, agreed-upon motive/interest
statement
o scope of purpose and use ("deep background" only?)
o timing of publication, scope of publication (good luck)
o confirmation from multiple sources (lead source or primary source?)
o means of contact, communication protocol (Subpoena trick: go for third
party communication routes, cell phone provider, etc. to run around the
journalist and the shield laws.)
o handling of notes, documentation and memoranda (commingling, destruction,
etc.)
o limitations: you lie, a lawsuit results, criminal investigation
o legal defense provisions
o opportunity to confirm/review/refute (forget it)
o legal recourse / liquidated damages
(misc. boilerplate blah-blah)

Most of the above assumes you are giving them "THE STORY OF THE CENTURY."

o If you achieve the _miracle_ of confidential source status: DON'T LIE.
Don't even embellish.
o While there is some support for legal recourse against the
reporter/newspaper, it will probably be of little consolation.
o State shield laws vary. State case law varies. "It depends." The law may
require disclosure. Secure legal counsel and find out, certainly in a
criminal matter.
o Is it a REAL investigative reporter? They know how to protect confidential
sources.
o The reporter must justify why you deserve this status to those on-high --
why you should be trusted. Sow your fields ahead of time.
o Go with a reporter you trust (or a reporter with an reputational interest
in your community - plug for Declan). I would go with some small newspapers
before some major news orgs, many of which have horrific track records in
this regard. It's the reporter that sits in jail for you. Ask around
http://www.spj.org and http://www.ire.org .
o Is there another way to get this information to the reporter with a
credible, named source?

I certainly don't represent myself as an expert in this area, and it's been
a while since I had cause to review it. ;-)

Disclaimer: "This is not legal advice because you didn't pay me for it. It's
general information. It's probably ill-suited to any particular situation
you might have. You always need a lawyer. Always. You should take your
lawyer with you everywhere, like a pocket squirrel."


	-Aimee

A lady will not ask for the service of your handkerchief, even if in need of
a tourniquet.




From owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com  Sat Mar 10 23:21:29 2001
From: owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com (owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:21:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <0GA000COSV390K@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net>

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From owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com  Sat Mar 10 23:21:55 2001
From: owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com (owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:21:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <0GA000B2OV3ZXG@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net>

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From owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com  Sat Mar 10 23:22:00 2001
From: owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com (owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:22:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <0GA000CSHV3Z0I@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 10 22:33:02 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:33:02 -0600
Subject: THE SUNDAY TIMES: WORLD NEWS - Who says the Isreali's haven't become the Nazi's?
Message-ID: <3AAB1C1E.F25EBAED@ssz.com>


http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/03/11/stifgnmid02002.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From lharrison at dueprocess.com  Sat Mar 10 22:11:08 2001
From: lharrison at dueprocess.com (Lynne L. Harrison)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:11:08 -0500
Subject: The Great Hack Attack
In-Reply-To: <200103091529.KAA18723@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010311011108.007e2e10@pop.idsi.net>


Over 40 companies in the United States (covering 20 states)
have had their Online Banking and E-Commerce applications
compromised. We have no idea how many companies have been
affected internationally. The Secret Service Field Offices
and the Federal Bureau of Investigations have been investigating
this here in the States, and are also coordinating efforts
with foreign law enforcement authorities to track down the
perpetrators.  Over 1,000,000 accounts, including credit
cards, user IDs and passwords, and personal data (e.g. -
whatever contents the compromised businesses kept in their
online databases) were stolen.
....................


http://www.arstechnica.com/wankerdesk/01q1/greathack-1.html

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrm/pressrel/pressrel01/nipc030801.htm 




From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Sat Mar 10 23:28:37 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 02:28:37 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4438D@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found KDLADCKD.EXE infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Unknown", was
sent from owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com and was discovered in IMC
Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Sat Mar 10 23:31:23 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 02:31:23 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4438F@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found KDLADCKD.EXE infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Unknown", was
sent from owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com and was discovered in IMC
Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Sat Mar 10 23:33:01 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 02:33:01 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44391@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found KDLADCKD.EXE infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Unknown", was
sent from owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com and was discovered in IMC
Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Sun Mar 11 06:55:32 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:55:32 -0800
Subject: Can I reproduce out of print books?
Message-ID: <e7496ec55027b60cd594c5c9fa49f51a@melontraffickers.com>


Does anyone know the law regarding duplication of out of print
books/other works?

E.g. Stephen King withdrew his book 'Rage' (support your neighborhood
second-hand bookstore) about a schoolkid who holds his class hostage 
at gunpoint, shortly after the Littleton shootings.  King _does not_ 
want this book to be available to the public until the mess blows over.

If I distributed this book in electronic format for free, I would not
be costing him a single penny.  Would I still be violating the DCMA
and which other laws would I violate?  

Also, what if I claimed that books like King's were in some way
responsible for the current spate of shootings?  Would I be able to
reproduce the book (so my quotes can be judged in the context of a whole 
work) in order to campaign against it?  Or can he legally suppress his 
own works?

Publius.




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Mar 11 04:02:52 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:02:52 -0500
Subject: DoJ and Cypherpunks...
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010310130656.009f48d0@idiom.com>
References: <20010309174929.B30583@cluebot.com>
 <200103092156.QAA20801@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
 <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>
 <af09589833a35b417e5794542bbe36e8@melontraffickers.com>
 <20010309211446.24170.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
 <200103092156.QAA20801@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200103111213.HAA15153@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


A consequence of issuing subpoenas to news folks
is to inhibit their reporting on the trial, for witnesses are
excluded from the proceedings, at least before their
testimony -- I'm not sure about exclusion after testimony.

No doubt a rich publisher will assign a second reporter
to cover the trial. Which is what superrich Cryptome will 
do, as well as get daily transcripts, hopefully in digital form
for immediate publication -- even to be laptopped by those
excluded from the trial. Unless this public announcement
precludes this 1A plot. If so, then we'll go to backups 1, 2, 3
and so on.

Anybody know who the second subpoenaed reporter is?

Jeff answered the inquiry about my GJ transcript: "don't
get your hopes up. I've never heard of that happening,
instead only portions of GJ testimony are available if
introduced at the trial." That's not what Robb told me
before testifying, but then he's a mouther rather than
a shooter like Jeff.

Anybody who thinks questions posed during testimony 
will be limited to what was assured beforehand has got 
to be from Pluto. Same credulity for "off the record."

The feds will tell you anything to get your cooperation.
And leave to your imagination and planted news stories
what will happen if you don't. Jim Bell is a poster boy
for that, and I continue to believe that's his role, probably
with his help, coerced or willing.

This is not to say that journalists, any seducer, are so 
different. That's the problem with privilege and
pulling rank -- they're a corrupting, contemptous 
divide of us-winners/you-losers. And do seducers
scream when their scams are exposed.

Robb wants the attention poster boy Declan can give 
his vendetta, the gov's intention to show who runs
cyber-space and -spacers.







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 05:45:44 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:45:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists | Confidential 
  source agreements
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEAJCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311073942.5925p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>


On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> But all speech is not equal.

And what was your first clue? I'm speaking of the Constitution as it was
intended. You're as stupid as Declan (of course this should surprise
nobody since both of you are protecting the status quo). Like I've said
before lawyers and reports are whores, they sell their integrity to the
highest bidder. None of you believe in the Constitution, and you're so
scared of it you'll take an oath to protect it and then turn around with
full pre-meditation and break that oath in order to protect the status
quo. Democracy and real 'equality under the law' must scare the holy shit
out of you everytime the thought enters your pea-sized noggin.

Both of you should see a doctor about your attention deficit. I suspect
it's too late for your soul.

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 05:46:47 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:46:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010310122859.009eb090@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311074618.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Platinum costs vary, but I've never seen it above $500/oz,
> and I think it's more often about $300, e.g. about the price of
> good marijuana, which far more than 1 in 1000 hobbyists can afford :-)
> How much of it do you need for a can-sat engine's catalyst?

Um, as far as I know I don't need any Marijuana in any of my rockets.

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 05:53:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:53:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists | Confidential 
  source agreements
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEAJCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311074815.5925r-100000@einstein.ssz.com>


On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> But all speech is not equal.

"Congress shall make NO law ..."

Clearly Congress isn't following it's own Constitutional directive.

> In fact, there is precedent running the other direction.

Thank you for conceeding my 'unconstitutional' point.

 (Indeed, Jim, precedent runs in the other direction for most of
> your arguments. I don't mean this disrespectfully.)

> For example, media 'is (sic)' defined as "persons who gather and 
> disseminate news on an ongoing basis as
> part of the organized, traditional, mass media."

Why is it that a STOP sign is clearly understood but 'make no law' isn't?
What is the thinking that the government has the authority to break the
law but nobody else does? How can a government which doesn't recognize or
respect its own laws be a honest government? If the government isn't
honest why should it expect anyone to conform?

> First Amendment mileage in your state may vary. 

Actually not, it will be ignored at any and every opportunity. Pretty
reliable mileage in my book.

> Nontraditional media, such
> as online collaborative media, might not receive the benefit of state shield
> statutes.

Which is clearly against 'equal protection' and 'make no law ...'.

[ a bunch of prima facia evidence the US Government is acting
extra-Constitutionaly.]

Yep, clearly the best way to protect democracy is to ignore it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 05:57:15 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:57:15 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Is Crypto Solely for Criminals?
Message-ID: <3AAB843B.7CAED6B5@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/11/0427238.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

        Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

                                                       Locke

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Mar 11 08:57:21 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:57:21 -0800
Subject: Can I reproduce out of print books?
In-Reply-To: <e7496ec55027b60cd594c5c9fa49f51a@melontraffickers.com>
References: <e7496ec55027b60cd594c5c9fa49f51a@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <a05010405b6d15b313367@[207.111.241.39]>


At 6:55 AM -0800 3/11/01, A. Melon wrote:
>Does anyone know the law regarding duplication of out of print
>books/other works?

"Copyright" is separate from "out of print."

A book is "out of print" when the publisher is not selling new copies 
of the book to distributors and end buyers. At that time. A book can 
be "out of print" and then a Second or Third Printing, etc., can 
happen.

"Out of print," even for N years, does not mean copyright is 
relinquished or lost.

(I said "selling" above, as opposed to "printing," because a 
particular book is only being actually "printed" for some number of 
hours while a print run is actually occurring. This is clearly not 
what is meant by "in print.")

>
>E.g. Stephen King withdrew his book 'Rage' (support your neighborhood
>second-hand bookstore) about a schoolkid who holds his class hostage
>at gunpoint, shortly after the Littleton shootings.  King _does not_
>want this book to be available to the public until the mess blows over.
>
>If I distributed this book in electronic format for free, I would not
>be costing him a single penny.  Would I still be violating the DCMA
>and which other laws would I violate?

Copyright laws. The issue of whether you think you would or would not 
be "costing him a single penny" is irrelevant to copyright law. (As 
it should be...I'm reading David Friedman's new book, "Law's Order," 
which helps to clarify much thinking.)

(David Friedman came to yesterday's Cypherpunks meeting at the Alpine 
Inn, near Stanford. He arrived late, but we managed to have dinner 
and a vigorous discussion afterward. He kindly gave me a copy of 
"Law's Order." A very nice book, from what I have read of it so far.)

>
>Also, what if I claimed that books like King's were in some way
>responsible for the current spate of shootings?  Would I be able to
>reproduce the book (so my quotes can be judged in the context of a whole
>work) in order to campaign against it?  Or can he legally suppress his
>own works?

There have been unfortunate court cases where some perp and his 
shysters attempted to claim that a film (like "Natural Born Killers") 
or a recording "caused" some criminal action. Until recently, juries 
did not buy this argument. There are good reasons for society to not 
let people off the hook because they claim that the Bible made them 
kill someone, or because a movie about airline hijacking gave them 
ideas.

As for quoting from a book or article in a trial, of course you may. 
You may introduce the book or article as evidence, quote selective 
sections, etc. Even reviewers may do this ("fair use").

This has nothing to do with you deciding to "reproduce" the book and 
distribute it to a wider audience.

(There are some niggling issues about whether coprighted works can be 
entered in toto into court records which are then publically 
accessible, especially over the Net. The Church of Scientology case, 
involving their copyrights "NOTS" documents, are a case in point. The 
Church has convinced some (most? all?) courts not to have the full 
text of these copyrighted works not accessible over the Web.)

Generally, your notion that you have some property right to someone else
's works because you think he is either "holding it back" or that 
your publication would "not cost him one penny" is strongly 
contradicted by Copyright law.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 08:21:02 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:21:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Can I reproduce out of print books?
In-Reply-To: <e7496ec55027b60cd594c5c9fa49f51a@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311101918.5925t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



IANAL,

Life of author & 70 something years, unless they sell the rights to a
corp. Then it's as long as the corp. does something to keep the copyright
alive.

In-print, out-of-print, irrelevant.

On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, A. Melon wrote:

> Does anyone know the law regarding duplication of out of print
> books/other works?

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 08:36:56 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:36:56 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
Message-ID: <3AABA9A8.1B76CC15@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/features/01/03/10/0358220.shtml

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 08:41:47 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:41:47 -0600
Subject: Linux Today - Unix Insider: The opening of secrets - Steven Levy recounts the history of public key cryptography
Message-ID: <3AABAACB.E65E701A@ssz.com>


http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-03-11-008-04-OP-BR
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bear at sonic.net  Sun Mar 11 10:44:22 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:44:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: corporate espionage
In-Reply-To: <3AAAAA61.3621211C@mbanews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103111041200.2844-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Becky wrote:

>I was doing an internet search on cor esp.  your article was on my hit list.
>At this point I cannot recall the page.  Are you the right person for the
>subject?

One or more of the several thousand people you are addressing may be 
the right person for the subject.  However, since there are several 
thousand people here, and none of us knows what all the others have 
written, you really have to be a lot more specific in requests for 
information.  Further, the one who wrote the article you read may or 
may not be listening at this time.

				Bear


>
>Jim Choate wrote:
>
>> Hi Becky,
>>
>> Which if the several hundred subscribers to the 8+ CDR nodes and
>> potentialy thousands of associated webpages might you be refering to?
>>
>> You seem to have a fuzzy understanding of the concept 'mailing list'.
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Becky wrote:
>>
>> > Read your article.  Most of the examples involve pharm companies.  I am
>> > interested in examples that involve a prime companies that have an
>> > outsourcing relationship.  Any thoughts?
>>
>>     ____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>         Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
>>
>>                                                        Locke
>>
>>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>




From bear at sonic.net  Sun Mar 11 10:55:30 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:55:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Teach me
In-Reply-To: <000901c0aa0a$18b23160$f0fd8ec6@empires>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103111046580.2844-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




Okay, if you want to learn how to hack, I recommend the 
following books: (these are available on Amazon). 

	Introduction to Algorithms, from MIT press. 

	Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, 
	same source. 

	The Art of Computer Programming, (get all 4 volumes) 
	by Knuth.


If you want to learn how to hack crypto, I recommend
these: (Amazon is your friend again) 

	The Code Breakers, by David Kahn. 

	Applied Cryptography, by Bruce Schneier. 


If you're smart enough to hack, that ought to keep you busy for 
a couple of years and you shouldn't pester us again until you're 
ready for more.  If you're not smart enough to hack, you'll never 
get through these and understand what's in them, and you should 
never pester us again.

		Good luck, 

			Bear




On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, dumitru oprescu wrote:

>If you know of anyone in the SYDNEY area pls help me learn how to hack
>PLS rite me at badasstoyboy at hotmail.com
>




From recruit at compurxinc.com  Sun Mar 11 08:13:14 2001
From: recruit at compurxinc.com (recruit at compurxinc.com)
Date: 11 Mar 2001 11:13:14 -0500
Subject: CompuRx Research Panel
Message-ID: <200103111612.f2BGCZ402842@ak47.algebra.com>


Dear Consumer,

CompuRx, Inc., an independent healthcare market research organization, 
is currently recruiting consumers to join a panel to participate in 
selected healthcare related market research studies.  These studies 
are presented in either a traditional paper format or an online 
web-based format.

Typically, when we are conducting a study that we feel may be of 
interest to a particular subset of panel members, we will send an 
email invitation to participate.  The email will include a brief 
outline of the study specifications.  After reviewing the study 
information, members may opt to participate or members may decline 
participation.  Remember, study participation is ALWAYS OPTIONAL 
and, importantly, declination of any one study does not impact the 
solicitation of member support for future research efforts.

To enroll in this very important market research panel, please visit:

http://www.CompuRxInc.com/ProfilesConsumerEnroll.asp

NOTE: AOL USERS AND THOSE WHO RECEIVE AN ERROR MESSAGE WHEN CLICKING
ON THIS LINK MUST COPY AND PASTE THE TEXT DIRECTLY INTO YOUR
WEB LOCATION (BROWSER) FIELD. BE SURE THAT YOU HIGHLIGHT THE 
ENTIRE ADDRESS, WHICH MAY CONTINUE ON TWO LINES. 

Please note that the results of our studies are used for market 
research purposes only and all responses will be kept in strictest 
confidence.  Please be assured that member participation is STRICTLY 
CONFIDENTIAL and will NOT result in any sales calls!

Please feel free to email me (John.Silver at CompuRxInc.com) if you 
have any questions or comments relative to CompuRx market research.

Regards,

John Silver
John.Silver at CompuRxInc.com

To stop receiving email invitations from CompuRx, Inc. relative to
market research, simply send an email to 
remove at compurxinc.com?subject=Remove with "REMOVE" in the subject line.  
Upon receipt we will permanently remove your email address from our list.







From bear at sonic.net  Sun Mar 11 11:27:37 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:27:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Can I reproduce out of print books?
In-Reply-To: <e7496ec55027b60cd594c5c9fa49f51a@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103111109070.2844-100000@bolt.sonic.net>


On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, A. Melon wrote:

>Does anyone know the law regarding duplication of out of print
>books/other works?

It's the same law as the law regarding duplication of in-print 
books/other works.  There are places and situations in which the 
enforcement varies depending on whether it's out of print, but 
in the US anyway, it's the same law. 

>E.g. Stephen King withdrew his book 'Rage' (support your neighborhood
>second-hand bookstore) about a schoolkid who holds his class hostage 
>at gunpoint, shortly after the Littleton shootings.  King _does not_ 
>want this book to be available to the public until the mess blows over.
>
>If I distributed this book in electronic format for free, I would not
>be costing him a single penny.  Would I still be violating the DCMA
>and which other laws would I violate?  

Yep, you would still be violating copyright, including the DMCA. 

>Also, what if I claimed that books like King's were in some way
>responsible for the current spate of shootings?  Would I be able to
>reproduce the book (so my quotes can be judged in the context of a whole 
>work) in order to campaign against it?  Or can he legally suppress his 
>own works?

You can quote from it, subject to the rules on fair use - but you 
can't reproduce the whole of it.  

However, if the text of the book is submitted as evidence, in a civil 
or criminal trial, there are some different rules that apply. 

I recall a circumstance in which a reporter for the Topeka newspaper, 
while on vacation on his own nickel, researched a story on a local 
foaming-at-the-mouth minister named Fred Phelps, going to Phelps' 
hometown and interviewing people who'd known him as a kid etc.  He 
then wrote an article and handed it to his editor at work, at the 
Topeka Capitol Journal.  

As it turns out though, when the Journal had changed ownership a year 
or so earlier, Phelps and his goons had started picketing the owner's 
house.  Loudly and continuously, until they started getting good press. 
The owner, effectively in Phelps' pocket, quashed the story.

The reporter notified them that he intended to publish an article using 
the research he'd done for the quashed article elsewhere, and the 
newspaper (acting more or less on orders from Phelps' goons)  sued 
to stop him.  The reporter entered the text of the submitted article 
as Exhibit A in the lawsuit, and the research he'd done as Exhibit B. 
His case was to show that the article he intended to publish elsewhere 
used different parts of his research than the article that the Capitol 
Journal had refused to publish. But when it was submitted as evidence, 
it became public information and went out on the internet within two 
hours.

I don't remember whether he won or lost the suit.  But it seemed kind 
of moot after that.

				Bear




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Sun Mar 11 09:54:04 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:54:04 -0500
Subject: Can I reproduce out of print books?
In-Reply-To: <e7496ec55027b60cd594c5c9fa49f51a@melontraffickers.com>;
  from juicy@melontraffickers.com on Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 06:55:32AM
  -0800
References: <e7496ec55027b60cd594c5c9fa49f51a@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <20010311125404.B28160@ils.unc.edu>


It's not that hard to read the US Copyright Law.  Visit
http://www4.law.cornell.edu ; either read the DMCA (you
can search for it), or just look through the relevant
sections of Title 17.

On Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 06:55:32AM -0800, A. Melon wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know the law regarding duplication of out of print
> books/other works?

Yes.  Being out of print is irrelevant.  What's relevant
is whether it's copyrighted.

> E.g. Stephen King withdrew his book 'Rage' (support your neighborhood
> second-hand bookstore) about a schoolkid who holds his class hostage 
> at gunpoint, shortly after the Littleton shootings.  King _does not_ 
> want this book to be available to the public until the mess blows over.

This is most assuredly copyrighted.  It's conceivable that King
(who, I believe, owns his own copyrights) granted the book to the
public domain, but don't bet on it.

> If I distributed this book in electronic format for free, I would not
> be costing him a single penny.  Would I still be violating the DCMA
> and which other laws would I violate?  

You could anticipate being found and prosecuted.  Under 
Title 17, the fines can add up quite quickly: per copy made.  This
is why Napster was fined hundreds of millions of $$$.

Your profit or motive is essentially irrelevant to copyright law.

> Also, what if I claimed that books like King's were in some way
> responsible for the current spate of shootings?  Would I be able to
> reproduce the book (so my quotes can be judged in the context of a whole 
> work) in order to campaign against it?  Or can he legally suppress his 
> own works?

Huh?

If you bought the book, then various rights are yours.  These
do not include redistributing the book except under certain
circumstances (a.k.a., "fair use").

Producing quotes or whatever from a book for a court is one
thing.  Mass distribution of a book is another.  

Search for "harlan ellison" on http://www.slashdot.org to see
what one author is doing about his book being redistributed.

// Gregory B. Newby, Assistant Professor in the School of Information
// and Library Science, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
// CB# 3360 Manning Hall, Chapel Hill, NC, 27599-3360  E: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu
// V: 919-962-8064 F: 919-962-8071  W: http://www.ils.unc.edu/gbnewby/




From BF at farc.org  Sun Mar 11 14:17:37 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 14:17:37 -0800
Subject: transparent DeCSS: digital circuit better than perl?
Message-ID: <3AABF981.B8208750@farc.org>


At 01:51 PM 3/10/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>DVD CSS decoding in 7 lines of perl is a cute hack,
>but it doesn't accomplish one of the main goals of DVDCSS,
>which is to explain the structure of the lame crypto algorithm.
>Even if you unwrap this to put the white space back,
>it's dense unreadable line noise.

Touretsky recently added a Verilog description of DeCSS to his Gallery,
FWIW.
This is human-readable, machine-interpretable, and could be synthesized
to a real physical
circuit.






From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Mar 11 14:21:00 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 14:21:00 -0800
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010310122859.009eb090@idiom.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010301175325.5925l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <ad691c928d3f8eaa4123fa26e55cb36b@mixmaster.shinn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010311142100.0080bd00@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:33 PM 3/10/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 06:16 PM 03/01/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>Technology wise, I'm real keen on the Hydrogen Peroxide Catalyst engines,
>>especially Platinum catalyst. Platinum is problematic, rare & expensive.
>>Say 1 out of 1,000 potential hobbyist can afford it. Hydrogen Peroxide
>>can at least theoretically be done in a garage lab, so we'll leave this
>>1-1 for now.
>
>Platinum costs vary, but I've never seen it above $500/oz,

Yeah, the problem is the fire marshall/BATF when they learn you're storing
70% H202 in your garage :-)  And the neighbors when they ask why their cat
is a bleached
blonde now..


.......


 






  







From BF at farc.org  Sun Mar 11 14:23:02 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 14:23:02 -0800
Subject: Jim C's rocket supplies
Message-ID: <3AABFAC5.8147A9AF@farc.org>


At 07:46 AM 3/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
>> Platinum costs vary, but I've never seen it above $500/oz,
>> and I think it's more often about $300, e.g. about the price of
>> good marijuana, which far more than 1 in 1000 hobbyists can afford
:-)
>> How much of it do you need for a can-sat engine's catalyst?
>
>Um, as far as I know I don't need any Marijuana in any of my rockets.

Not unless you're sending humans up there...






From alan at clueserver.org  Sun Mar 11 14:44:17 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 14:44:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Can I reproduce out of print books?
In-Reply-To: <e7496ec55027b60cd594c5c9fa49f51a@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103111439460.10357-100000@clueserver.org>


On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, A. Melon wrote:

> Does anyone know the law regarding duplication of out of print
> books/other works?
> 
> E.g. Stephen King withdrew his book 'Rage' (support your neighborhood
> second-hand bookstore) about a schoolkid who holds his class hostage 
> at gunpoint, shortly after the Littleton shootings.  King _does not_ 
> want this book to be available to the public until the mess blows over.
> 
> If I distributed this book in electronic format for free, I would not
> be costing him a single penny.  Would I still be violating the DCMA
> and which other laws would I violate?  
> 
> Also, what if I claimed that books like King's were in some way
> responsible for the current spate of shootings?  Would I be able to
> reproduce the book (so my quotes can be judged in the context of a whole 
> work) in order to campaign against it?  Or can he legally suppress his 
> own works?

You would still be in violation of the law.

Censorship by copyight is not new.  It has been going on for quite a
while.  (Everything from the Scientologists trying to prevent leaks of
their pay-per-view religion to companies that produced films hyping
products that turned out to be a danger to the general public. (Like the
paint company that was pushing a paint mixed with DDT in incredibly high
doses.))

I expect to see alot more copyright censorship in the coming years.  In
fact, I expect that with the direction the feds are taking, all forms of
censorship will have copyright violations attached for extra jail time
added.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From mindofwealth at aol.com  Sun Mar 11 15:34:14 2001
From: mindofwealth at aol.com (mindofwealth at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:34:14
Subject: "WE ARE LOOKING FOR SERIOUS ENTREPRENEURS"         
Message-ID: <200103120743.XAA22641@cyberpass.net>

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From mstalbot at newsguy.com  Sun Mar 11 15:41:31 2001
From: mstalbot at newsguy.com (Mark Talbot)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:41:31 -0800
Subject: Fwd: [Macsec] Mac GPG
Message-ID: <mailman.376.1576007503.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>


---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
Date:        02/25/01 8:10 PM
Received:    02/25/01 8:18 PM
From:        Gordon Worley, redbird at rbisland.cx
To:          macsec at macsecurity.org

I hope that this message will be appropriate for the list.  If it's
not, just let me know and I won't post anything like this again.

I've started a project on Sourceforge to create a Mac OS X front end,
inter application services, and an easy install method for GnuPG.
After a bit of work, I managed to get GPG running on my machine, but
it was too hard for someone whose casually interested in security
(much less doesn't know why ve should care, as the majority of
compuer users do).  I don't mean that it required a lot of security
knowledge, but it did require some Unix knowledge that the average
Mac user just doesn't have and probably wouldn't pick up just to get
GPG installed.  Anyway, once GPG is easy to install, then the project
will move on to inter application services, so that from any program
on Mac OS X text can be encrypted.  This is my main interest in the
project, but I figured I'd scratch some other people's itches while
I'm at it.  Finally, the project will work on a front end for Mac OS
X so that J. Random User won't have to get down and dirty with the
command line.

Now, you may ask yourself, why am I posting all of this here.  Well,
Mac GPG is free software (or, less accurately but more familar, open
source).  Thus, I'm looking to the list for developers.  The Web site
for the project is <http://macgpg.sourceforge.net/> and the project
page is <http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/macgpg/>.  If anyone out
there would like to help, check out those links, sign up with
Sourceforge if you haven't already, and send me a message letting me
know what you'd like to work on and be sure to include your
Sourceforge user name so I can add you to the project.  There are
some jobs posted on the project page, and if you meet those
descriptions I'd *really* like to have you on the project.

Okay, that's pretty much it.  With a little luck and hard work, in a
few weeks we should have something to make Mac OS X much nicer to
live in.  Maybe we'll even time it right and come out just after the
official release of OS X.  That would be great.

Thanks.
-- 
Gordon Worley
http://www.rbisland.cx/
mailto:redbird at rbisland.cx
Public Key:  C462 FA84 B811 3501 9010  20D2 6EF3 77F7 BBD3 B003

_______________________________________________
Macsec mailing list
Macsec at macsecurity.org
http://www.macsecurity.org/mailman/listinfo/macsec


----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From axyman at voila.fr  Sun Mar 11 06:56:39 2001
From: axyman at voila.fr (axyman at voila.fr)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:56:39 +0100
Subject: je suis bien majeur pour vos photos et videos
Message-ID: <GA1G6F$Io_9oES5zqCRcV9vOSzzF62jXDbdmUmxrgCdKqw5iQCx@voila.fr>




__________________________________________________
Voila vous propose une boite aux lettres gratuite sur Voila Mail:
http://mail.voila.fr






From roach_s at intplsrv.net  Sun Mar 11 15:03:48 2001
From: roach_s at intplsrv.net (Sean Roach)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:03:48 -0600
Subject: Fwd: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010311170004.00ca82c0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

This empty message came in today three times, infected with a worm.  This 
is the same worm I just cleared out of my system not 5 days ago.  Worm not 
attached, I've included the report Norton generated when it encountered 
this file today.
>X-Authentication-Warning: waste.minder.net: majordom set sender to 
>owner-cypherpunks at minder.net using -f
>From: owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com
>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:22:00 -0800 (PST)
>Date-warning: Date header was inserted by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net
>To: adam2 at panix.com, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>Subject:
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
>X-Rcpt-To: <roach_s at intplsrv.net>
>X-DPOP: DPOP Version 2.8e
>
-------------- next part --------------
This file: "KDLADCKD.EXE" was infected with the: "W95.Hybris.worm" virus.

The file was quarantined by Norton AntiVirus. Sunday, March 11, 2001  16:43

From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Mar 11 17:05:44 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:05:44 -0800
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <F269MFaukyCKDkb9pPF00006ac9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010311170544.00803400@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:25 PM 3/11/01 -0600, Brent Mattis wrote:
>nah bill, platinum is 600 dollars an ounce, its price has shot up over the 
>past five years.
>
>Brent

Yeah, but its better than the platinum you used to get years ago...




.......


 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Mar 11 17:09:48 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:09:48 -0800
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <HHFCIFDJNJFBBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010311170948.007fbb60@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:11 PM 3/11/01 -0500, Jim Windle wrote:
>According to Friday's Wall Street Journal spot platinum last closed at
$588 per ounce and is up from $473 per ounce one year ago. 

Fer chrissakes you can use a number of cheaper chemicals.  For those annoying
satellite launches that you have to field-improvise, blood can be used to 
decompose peroxide :-)




.......


 






  







From jf_avon at freedom.net  Sun Mar 11 14:14:38 2001
From: jf_avon at freedom.net (jf_avon at freedom.net)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:14:38 -0500
Subject: The Register - Has the NSA broken EU encryption?
Message-ID: <200103112237.QAA10066@einstein.ssz.com>


On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:41:18 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:


>Why would they use a cryptosystem that was easily broken,
>(other than GSM mobile phones, of course),
>rather than a decently strong cryptosystem where the
>main problem is theft of keys from the relevant users?

possible answers:

1) because, for a variety of reason, they like "made here" stuff AND/OR  they had money to 
absolutely spend.  Grand projects like that are good for rallying the troops and inducing all sort of 
state-desired emotions.  Rule Umpteen of govt: why buy off-the-shelf when you can spend twenty 
times to get to copies of custom-made inferior product?

2) because they *know* that everything else is operationnally broken (yeah, right! )





From alphabeta121 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 11 15:25:17 2001
From: alphabeta121 at hotmail.com (Brent Mattis)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:25:17 -0600
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
Message-ID: <F269MFaukyCKDkb9pPF00006ac9@hotmail.com>


nah bill, platinum is 600 dollars an ounce, its price has shot up over the 
past five years.

Brent


>From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart at pobox.com>
>Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>To: Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com>, cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
>Subject: Re: CDR: Re: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:33:25 -0800
>
>At 06:16 PM 03/01/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>Technology wise, I'm real keen on the Hydrogen Peroxide Catalyst engines,
>>especially Platinum catalyst. Platinum is problematic, rare & expensive.
>>Say 1 out of 1,000 potential hobbyist can afford it. Hydrogen Peroxide
>>can at least theoretically be done in a garage lab, so we'll leave this
>>1-1 for now.
>
>Platinum costs vary, but I've never seen it above $500/oz,
>and I think it's more often about $300, e.g. about the price of
>good marijuana, which far more than 1 in 1000 hobbyists can afford :-)
>How much of it do you need for a can-sat engine's catalyst?
>
>That's separate from questions of whether it's easy to work with,
>or whether you can get the catalyst into the form you need,
>e.g. wire mesh or particles spread on fiberglass or whatever.
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 15:35:41 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:35:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Teach me
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103111046580.2844-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311173457.5925w-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



You can send them to the various reading lists on SSZ. I think all the
books you mentioned are there and then some. I'm adding on a regular basis
as well.

http://einstein.ssz.com

Look for "Suggested Reading"...

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> 
> 
> Okay, if you want to learn how to hack, I recommend the 
> following books: (these are available on Amazon). 
> 
> 	Introduction to Algorithms, from MIT press. 
> 
> 	Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, 
> 	same source. 
> 
> 	The Art of Computer Programming, (get all 4 volumes) 
> 	by Knuth.
> 
> 
> If you want to learn how to hack crypto, I recommend
> these: (Amazon is your friend again) 
> 
> 	The Code Breakers, by David Kahn. 
> 
> 	Applied Cryptography, by Bruce Schneier. 
> 
> 
> If you're smart enough to hack, that ought to keep you busy for 
> a couple of years and you shouldn't pester us again until you're 
> ready for more.  If you're not smart enough to hack, you'll never 
> get through these and understand what's in them, and you should 
> never pester us again.
> 
> 		Good luck, 
> 
> 			Bear
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, dumitru oprescu wrote:
> 
> >If you know of anyone in the SYDNEY area pls help me learn how to hack
> >PLS rite me at badasstoyboy at hotmail.com
> >
> 




From ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net  Sun Mar 11 14:36:13 2001
From: ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net (ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:36:13 -0500
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists | Confidential   source agreements
Message-ID: <200103112244.f2BMiL420499@ak47.algebra.com>


On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:53:25 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate wrote:

>"Congress shall make NO law ..."
>
>Clearly Congress isn't following it's own Constitutional directive.

Congress does not have to follow any constitutional directives.

The congress of the united States of America was ajourned sine die in the mid nineteen century.

What sits in washington is an entity named "congress" that is there only to implement Admiralty 
Jurisdiction (Roman Law) on the land (i.e. despotism).

The constitution, even if questionnable, applies only to men and women, not to "persons" under 
Admiralty-type "laws".  In facts, they are not laws but legislations...

M'dears, you've been under Martial law applied by the corporation called "United States) since 150 
years...  What do you think that gold fringe around the flag means, exactly?  What do you think the 
lance tip or the round ball (signifying the last cannon ball shot) means exactly?

You are either a *C*itizen of the united States of America or a *c*itizen of the United States.

The former has unalianeble rights, the later only has privileges.

Duh!

And the second you accept the court's juridiction, you tacitely accepted the contract that makes you a 
"person" (from greek "persona", a theatre mask, an assumed identity) under Admiralty law.

So, why the big surprise and revolt?  As you slave, you have only one duty: shut up and obey!  Any 
shit stirring would be akin mutiny or slave revolt.

As long as you don't claim your rights under Anglo-Saxon Common Law, you have no rights but only 
priviledges.










________________________________________________________________________
Protect your privacy! - Get Freedom 2.0 at http://www.freedom.net




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 15:37:37 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:37:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010311142100.0080bd00@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311173705.5925x-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, David Honig wrote:

> Yeah, the problem is the fire marshall/BATF when they learn you're storing
> 70% H202 in your garage :-)  And the neighbors when they ask why their cat

It's gotta be 90% or better.

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 15:40:58 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:40:58 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Neal Stephenson on Zeta Functions
Message-ID: <3AAC0D0A.4966A825@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/11/2224202.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 15:42:28 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:42:28 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Disposable Credit Card Numbers
Message-ID: <3AAC0D64.EF406062@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/11/1756213.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From oton at nsys.by  Sun Mar 11 09:06:25 2001
From: oton at nsys.by (Alexander Trofimenko)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:06:25 +0200
Subject: Physical reason
Message-ID: <003b01c0aa4d$9f8d1180$4dc29ec2@oton>

Dear Sirs

I would like to offer the paper"Physical reason of Oklahoma-City catastrophe".

Many facts tell us about catastrophes in cities, which are similar to Oklahoma-City tragedy. But their reason are natural forces not human deeds. The knowledge of the true reason of the Oklahoma-City catastrophe is important for prevention such tragedies in the future. The proof of physical reason of Oklahoma-City catastrophe will free Timothy J. McVeigh from an accusation. This version has little chances. But it is last chance for rescue Timothy J. McVeigh. American storch should not answer for actions of natural forces. Probably, this version has one chance from one million. But the life of the man costs to check up the most improbable version.

I want to send this note to Timothy J. McVeigh, his attorneys and Benton K. Partin. What E-mail Timothy J. McVeigh, his attorneys and Benton K. Partin?

Thank You for attention to my letter.

Yours sincerely

Alexander P. Trofimenko 

E-mail: oton at nsys.by

WWW Site: http://nsys.by:8101/~oton
Telephone in Minsk: (8-10375172) 210-20-40
Dr. Alexander P. Trofimenko
P.O. Box 7, Minsk-12, 220012, Belarus

Physical reason of Oklahoma-City catastrophe 

Alexander P. Trofimenko

Timothy J. McVeigh is scheduled to die by lethal injection May 16, 2001, in the first execution by the federal government in 37 years. The Gulf War veteran was convicted of murder 168 people, making it the deadliest act of terrorism on American soil. 

Whether becomes this event the triumph of fairness and legality? Or this event becomes the apogee of tragical error? The American justice is known to be the most perfect in the world. All was provided for the fair justice. But the jurisprudence, unfortunately, does not take into account recent scientific discoveries.

Many facts tell us about catastrophes in cities, which are similar to Oklahoma-City tragedy. But their reason are natural forces not human deeds. The knowledge of the true reason of the Oklahoma-City catastrophe is important for prevention such tragedies in the future.

In the morning of April 19, 1995 the terrible explosion has shaken an office building in the tranquil Oklahoma-City. The 9-storeyed building collapsed. As a result of the catastrophe a three-meter depth and six meters width crater has been formed. One thousand kg of an explosive are necessary for such powerful explosion. 168 persons perished under debrises. 

29-year's farmer Timothy J. McVeigh was arrested by policemen in 75 minutes after the explosion. He was detained for speeding in 130 kilometers from Oklahoma - City. He was the participant of the operation "Desert Storm". Subsequently he became the main accused on criminal cases about the terrorist act.

The FBI agents have found a small detail of the automobile among tens tons of fragments, which were on a place of explosion. According to the formal version, the part found was that of the car, where ton of explosive was put in. The inspectors establish, that the found detail belongs to the automobile, which was rented by McVeigh. The small part has led the police to creator of the "infernal machine".

Nobody witnessed how McVeigh had exploded 9-storeyed building. Only some indirect proofs have appeared at the disposal of accusation. The former colleague and friend of McVeigh became the main witness of accusation. He informed that McVeigh was going to raise a general revolt (?!) in America. The terror act in Oklahoma-City should become an impulse to rebellion in the richest and safe country. 

The accusation was able to convince the jury. The exemplary soldier and the hero of victorious war was hating its government. This has induced McVeigh to effect the explosion of an office building in Oklahoma - City. Four day was required to the members of jury to ascertain McVeigh's guilt in this crime.

The reason of the Oklahoma-City tragedy: human deeds or natural forces? The unexpected catastrophes in different cities of planet can be more powerful, than the dramatic collapse of the building in Oklahoma-City.

At the night of April 12, 1991 the enormous explosion has occurred in townlet Sasovo of the Ryazan Region(Russia). The power of explosion was estimated to be about 25 tons of trotyl. A huge crater (28 meters in a diameter and 4 meters by depth) has remained on a place of event. The crater was surprisingly round with a large (3 meters in a diameter) knoll in the middle.

To provide such a powerful blast dozens of autotruck with explosive would be necessary. The same is valid with the blast in Oklahoma-City. The version about the explosion of vacuum bomb appeared firstly at once affirmed by the statement that the bomb was thrown accidentally from the warplane. But it has not been acknowledged. The riddle of event in Sasovo has excited scientific circles, but it was impossible to find a traditional scientific explanation.

A dozen cases of strange "explosions" of buildings occur annually in various places. The similarity of unexpected destructions of buildings in various areas of the Earth reveals the universal natural factor of such catastrophes.

The science has made recently one discovery: the gravitational force of black holes (otons) causes these catastrophes. Black holes were predicted within the framework of the modern theory of gravitation - the general theory of relativity. The creator of this theory is famous Albert Einstein.

The creators of atomic bombs were the founders of the otonic science. In 1939 R. Oppenheimer with his collegues have made the inference about an opportunity of formation during star evolution of objects, which have termed later as black holes. Later Oppenheimer has become "father" of the American atomic bomb.

Physicist J. А. Wheeler has defined the term "black hole" in 1967. He was the scientific consultant of the President on american nuclear program. The world-wide interest to black holes sharply increased after papers by Wheeler and his colleagues have been published.

J. B. Zel'dovich was one of the creators of the Soviet atomic bomb. The scientist created the scientific school on black holes in Moscow. "Black holes are everywhere, where the contrary had not been proved". This jocoserious phrase had been told by Zel'dovich at a gravitational conference in Minsk. The severe sense of this remark is clear to everyone, who knows the concept of gravitational vacuum. 

A. D. Sacharov was the known advocate of human rights, the Nobel prizewinner and "father" of the Soviet hydrogen bomb. He was interested in black holes too. This interest was connected with development of the theory of Great Unification of fundamental forces. This theory must unite all known interactions and particles, become a theory of everything. The source of particles of the highest energies in the Universe is necessary for verification of the theory. Academician Sacharov has offered to use explosible micro-black holes as such energy source.

In 1964 I.D. Novikov, and then in 1965 Y. Ne'eman have stated idea of the so-called "retarded cores" - splinters of the Big Bang. In 1967 J.B. Zel'dovich and I.D. Novikov, and then in 1971 S. Hawking have suggested the second variant of origin of black holes, which are formed of inhomogeneities of substance at the early stages of the Metagalaxy expansion. 

Such otons have received the name of relict (primordial) black holes. The relict black holes are splinters of the Big Bang, splinters of superdense substance. These black holes could have any possible masses and there are a lot of them in the Earth.

Terrestrial black holes are microscopic objects (gravitational " points" ) with masses starting from thousand tons up to billion of billions tons. Their sizes are comparable to that of atoms and fundamental particles. 

The terrestrial black holes can differ in mass in many billions times. And it is not only quantitative distinctions. The properties of black holes of various masses can be so different, that it is possible to speak about qualitatively various objects. The terrestrial black holes are the diversified objects. A variety of otonic manifestations hugely increase due to diversity of the types of their interaction with matter and black holes combinations in otonic systems. They can cause as practically imperceptible phenomena, so planetary cataclysms(earthquakes, volcanoes explosions, etc). 

The force of gravitation of atomic size black hole (mass about 1020g) at a distance of one kilometer is equal to the force of the Earth gravity, and surpasses the force of the Earth gravity in million times at one meter distance. Such black hole moves with the cosmic speed and is capable to destroy buildings. The black hole, having destroyed a building for shares of second, moves on other end of the Planet during half-an-hour. The determination of movement trajectory of such black hole is a real task.

The solution of this problem is a finding of trajectory of a gravitational point in the gravity field of the Earth. This problem is constantly solved for Earth satellites and space ships. The knowledge of an otonic trajectory helps to determine the further wanderings of the "black hole - terrorist". It means an opportunity of definition of places, in which collision with black holes are possible, and time, when these collisions can occur.

The black hole, which was the cause of the Oklahoma-City tragedy, else will appear near terrestrial surface, bringing destructions and death. The place and the time of these events can be predicted. It will free Timothy J. McVeigh from an accusation.

The proof of physical reason of Oklahoma-City catastrophe will free Timothy J. McVeigh from an accusation. Black holes can destroy buildings. This version has little chances. But it is last chance for rescue Timothy J. McVeigh. American storch should not answer for actions of natural forces. Probably, this version has one chance from one million. But the life of the man costs to check up the most improbable version.

What consolation can be at victims and relatives of victims of the Oklahoma-City disaster? 250 people want to view Oklahoma bomber's execution. The author wants to show the real Oklahoma bomber - black hole. This will be a show of destroying action of the black hole, which was the cause of the Oklahoma-City disaster. This will be able to see many and on TV all. It is possible to predict and prevent such the tragedies. This should become a consolation for all.

11.03.2001







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From jim_windle at eudoramail.com  Sun Mar 11 16:11:11 2001
From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:11:11 -0500
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
Message-ID: <HHFCIFDJNJFBBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>


According to Friday's Wall Street Journal spot platinum last closed at $588 per ounce and is up from $473 per ounce one year ago. 
--

On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:25:17   Brent Mattis wrote:
>
>nah bill, platinum is 600 dollars an ounce, its price has shot up over the 
>past five years.
>
>Brent
>
>
>>From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart at pobox.com>
>>Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>>To: Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com>, cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
>>Subject: Re: CDR: Re: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
>>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:33:25 -0800
>>
>>At 06:16 PM 03/01/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>>Technology wise, I'm real keen on the Hydrogen Peroxide Catalyst engines,
>>>especially Platinum catalyst. Platinum is problematic, rare & expensive.
>>>Say 1 out of 1,000 potential hobbyist can afford it. Hydrogen Peroxide
>>>can at least theoretically be done in a garage lab, so we'll leave this
>>>1-1 for now.
>>
>>Platinum costs vary, but I've never seen it above $500/oz,
>>and I think it's more often about $300, e.g. about the price of
>>good marijuana, which far more than 1 in 1000 hobbyists can afford :-)
>>How much of it do you need for a can-sat engine's catalyst?
>>
>>That's separate from questions of whether it's easy to work with,
>>or whether you can get the catalyst into the form you need,
>>e.g. wire mesh or particles spread on fiberglass or whatever.
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com




From charms at optusnet.com.au  Sun Mar 11 00:59:43 2001
From: charms at optusnet.com.au (dumitru oprescu)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:59:43 +1100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c0aa09$9e632860$f0fd8ec6@empires>

Hi I really need to learn I will give up on all my sleep just teach me I'm from SYDNEY Australia can anyone around here help me
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From charms at optusnet.com.au  Sun Mar 11 00:59:43 2001
From: charms at optusnet.com.au (dumitru oprescu)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:59:43 +1100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c0aa09$fa6192a0$f0fd8ec6@empires>

Hi I really need to learn I will give up on all my sleep just teach me I'm from SYDNEY Australia can anyone around here help me
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From charms at optusnet.com.au  Sun Mar 11 01:02:18 2001
From: charms at optusnet.com.au (dumitru oprescu)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:02:18 +1100
Subject: Teach me
Message-ID: <000901c0aa0a$18b23160$f0fd8ec6@empires>

If you know of anyone in the SYDNEY area pls help me learn how to hack
PLS rite me at badasstoyboy at hotmail.com
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 18:30:22 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:30:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: A question about copyright and archival sites...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311202431.5925B-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Who owns each posting that goes through the CDR?

Standard Responce: Each individual author.

Does this not mean that each individual author has full protection under
the copyright law?

Question: Doesn't this mean that if the author of a post archived, without
	  specific permission mind you - implied by subscription perhaps,
          has the legal right to remove it from said archive?

Question: Wouldn't a refusal mean an open violation of copyright law?


    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 18:36:48 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:36:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Another archive question
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311203317.5925C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Since an archive is intended for long-term consumption whereas a standard
mailing list is more akin to a conversation (however public one might hold
it to be) wouldn't an archivist run a higher risk of legal involvement
with respect to 3rd party usage and illegal activity?

Consider the levels of responsibility under current law for:

Actor
^
Archive
^
Author > List Member (May be 'Actor')

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 11 19:01:21 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:01:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Fwd: [Macsec] Mac GPG (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311210101.5925F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



FYI
    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:32:06 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at shipwright.com>
To: cryptography at c2.net, coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: Fwd: [Macsec] Mac GPG


--- begin forwarded text



From return at trafficmagnet.net  Sun Mar 11 06:14:20 2001
From: return at trafficmagnet.net (Christine Hall)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:14:20 +0800
Subject: WWW.OBSCURA.COM
Message-ID: <200103111414.WAA06455@ns2.trafficmagnet.net>

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From bear at sonic.net  Sun Mar 11 22:24:33 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:24:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010311142100.0080bd00@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103112213100.24824-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, David Honig wrote:

>
>Yeah, the problem is the fire marshall/BATF when they learn you're storing
>70% H202 in your garage :-)  And the neighbors when they ask why their cat
>is a bleached
>blonde now..

Um, there's a problem with 70%.  Actually a couple problems. 

First, if there are impurities, they can eat your catalyst.  
Specifically, if you have that much water, you'll run into 
problems with the platinum oxidizing/eroding at high 
temperature. 

Second, impurities add weight and don't add to your "bounce 
per ounce" of fuel.  With a thousand kilos of fuel at takeoff 
(and actual orbital rockets are lots bigger than that) your 
casually-included 30% water winds up being 300 kilos of dead 
weight holding you back at liftoff.  That's the place where it 
hurts most in terms of reaching high velocities.

And as to bleached cats...  Well, if some rocket-fuel grade 
peroxide spills on a cat, bleaching fur will be the least of 
its worries.

				Bear






From newsletter at dcsinter.net  Mon Mar 12 03:08:48 2001
From: newsletter at dcsinter.net (Dynamic Computer Systems)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 04:08:48 -0700
Subject: DCS Newsletter (03/11/2001)
Message-ID: <200103121103.DAA17252@toad.com>

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From healthvo at lne.com  Mon Mar 12 02:19:58 2001
From: healthvo at lne.com (healthvo at lne.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 04:19:58 -0600
Subject: THE NEXT INTERNET WAVE -JNJS
Message-ID: <200103121019.EAA13707@einstein.ssz.com>


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From plannerhifi at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 11 21:39:53 2001
From: plannerhifi at hotmail.com (Juan Perez)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:39:53 -0000
Subject: clon SIM
Message-ID: <F73icHIjoKjOnYrdH1o00004e4f@hotmail.com>


Hey, I have a smart card reader/writer, how can a clon a SIM card. please 
let know this at plannerhifi at hotmail.com
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From kbrockm at KVYK.netscape.net  Mon Mar 12 06:09:28 2001
From: kbrockm at KVYK.netscape.net (EarnMor)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:09:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cypherpunks - Make $2000 a Week -ATES
Message-ID: <200103121409.GAA18533@cyberpass.net>


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From gp1182001 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 07:28:00 2001
From: gp1182001 at yahoo.com (gp1182001 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:28:00
Subject: Targeted Lists at the lowest prices!
Message-ID: <200103121705.f2CH59427506@ak47.algebra.com>


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From globaldatamarketing at smtp2.kvtech.com  Mon Mar 12 06:56:44 2001
From: globaldatamarketing at smtp2.kvtech.com (globaldatamarketing at smtp2.kvtech.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:56:44 -0600
Subject: 101 MILLION E-MAIL ADDRESSES JUST $79 US
Message-ID: <419.436962.37142407globaldatamarketing@smtp2.kvtech.com>


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 With this super clean e-mail address lists you'll send less...and get 
 better results... 
     
 Our FRESH 101 Million Address List CD, will result in:
 
 * Higher Response Rates
 * Higher Sales Conversion Ratios
 * More Receptive prospects; Less Flames & Non-Buyers.
 * Less Contact With Anti-Commerce Radicals & Extremists.
 
 Can you imagine the kind of money you could make if you mailed one million 
 pieces and sold only one tenth (.01%) of one percent?  You do the math, you'll be 
 amazed!  This is not a rental list that is restricted to a one-time mailing.  
 You are purchasing an e-mail address list for your personal mailings and may use it 
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 expensive, most effective way to market... PERIOD! 
 
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 * 101,000,000 email addresses on 3 CDs
 
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 Payment by Credit card - call CAN 204-489-4085 (24 hrs, 7 days), quote 
 Reference Intro-Offer, remember to have your credit card ready.
 
 Payment by check or money order - Please print and fill out the form 
 below and post it along with a check or money order to Global Data Marketing 
 Suite 126, 163-2025 Corydon Ave Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3P 0N5, including 
the 
 Reference "Intro-Offer".
 
 All personal checks take 5 days to clear. Credit card orders are sent 
 within 24 hours of your call. You will receive your package within 5-10  days.

 You can pay an extra $30 and have it delivered in 3 days by FedEx.  
 Advise the operator on the phone if you would like this service. 
 
 TOTAL  OUTLAY
 
 US$85.00 (includes $6 P & H)
 
 ALL INFORMATION NECESSARY FOR YOU TO SUCCESSFULLY MAIL 
 QUICKLY IS PROVIDED WITH YOUR ORDER.
 
 Only use this form if mailing in your order.
 
 Name: 
 _________________________________________________________________
 
 Email Address 
 ________________________________________________________________
 
 Postal Address
 ________________________________________________________________
 
 Reference "Intro-Offer":
 ________________________________________________________________

 
 Amount Paid _____________________(please enclose check or money order)
 
 I understand that I am purchasing the 101 Million E-Mail Addresses List 
 on CD.  The addresses are not rented, and while I may use the list for my own 
 personal mailing, it is copyrighted and I may not share or offer it for resale.  I 
 understand that it is my responsibility to comply with any laws applicable to my local 
area. As 
 with all Software, once opened the CD may not be returned, however, if found 
 defective it will be replaced with like product at no charge.
 
 ___________________________
 Signature

 If you have any questions please email us at globaldatamarketing at yahoo.ca  DO 
 NOT just hit reply, as this message hasn't come from that address. 
 Please note the phone numbers above are ONLY ordering numbers. The operators 
only  have 
 the same information that is contained in this email. 
 ............................................................................................................
 
 If you want to be removed from this mailing list please email 
 globaldatamarketing at smtp2.kvtech.com with REMOVE in the subject heading along 
 with your email address. EG Remove johnsmith at hotmail.com. Please note that 
 the above phone number is an answering service, they are there to process 
 take orders. We will remove your name from our list and the list we are selling if 
 you do the above.




From djb at gci.net  Mon Mar 12 10:18:34 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:18:34 -0900
Subject: Attorney for a Mutton Sandwich
References: <3AAC0D0A.4966A825@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c0ab20$d9c2cf60$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


The Usual Suspect wrote:

1: >Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
2: >Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
3: >Democracy is dead.

Line 1:  See my .sig.  Line 2:  Some of us choose our clients with greater
care than others.  And as for Line 3, would that it were so!  As the wise
man said:

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."

=======================================================
The Law Office of Daniel J. Boone
326 Fourth Avenue, Suite B
Juneau, Alaska  99801
(907) 723-9902
djb at gci.net
=======================================================
"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe when the
legislature is in session."  -- Judge Gideon Tucker
=======================================================





From djb at gci.net  Mon Mar 12 10:27:47 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:27:47 -0900
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists at show trials
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEAJCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311073942.5925p-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <20010312110114.A14230@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <018801c0ab22$23c31880$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


Declan wrote:

> I believe that as a matter of principle, there is no difference between
> what I do in my articles and what John Young does on cryptome.org. Both
> of us *should* be treated by the law as professional journalists.

Hmm.  Oddly enough, I agree with that.  And yet, I doubt we are thinking of
the same thing.  Because I ALSO agree with the Usual Suspect in a way -- I
don't think professional journalists should be "treated by the law" any
differently than the rest of us mere sheeple.  If this makes any sense, I'm
not saying professional journalists shouldn't get special breaks, I'm saying
we should ALL get 'em and they shouldn't be special.  If freedom of the
press is to have any meaning, we can't have a gatekeeper empowered to say
"you are legitimate press and you, scoundrel, yes you, the guy with the
wireless Palm Pilot, you don't count!"

Of course, since we live in an age where the rule of law is a fast-fading
memory, it doesn't matter very much.  As Declan is discovering, the usual
protocols are not observed when the government is conducting show trials of
the randomly selected politically incorrect loser of the month.

-- Daniel

=======================================================
The Law Office of Daniel J. Boone
326 Fourth Avenue, Suite B
Juneau, Alaska  99801
(907) 723-9902
djb at gci.net
=======================================================
"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe when the
legislature is in session."  -- Judge Gideon Tucker
=======================================================




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Mar 12 01:51:50 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:51:50 +0000
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
References: <3.0.6.32.20010311170948.007fbb60@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3AAC9C36.C2A38387@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 07:11 PM 3/11/01 -0500, Jim Windle wrote:
> >According to Friday's Wall Street Journal spot platinum last closed at
> $588 per ounce and is up from $473 per ounce one year ago.
> 
> Fer chrissakes you can use a number of cheaper chemicals.  For those annoying
> satellite launches that you have to field-improvise, blood can be used to
> decompose peroxide :-)

Oh, all you want is enzymes then? I bet we can rig something up with
bacteria.  When it comes to making chemicals - well, chemicals without
annoying heavy metals in them anyway - microbiology is your friend.
Things that want nothing more than to reproduce themselves 3 times an
hour tend to be quite easy to get hold of in bulk :-)  Kinder to the
neighbours as well, unless you are in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Sudan in
which case those nice men from the Pentagon will be sending a cruise
missile your way as soon as they hear that you are getting into
production scale.

On the other hand I had this vague idea that peroxide sort of decomposed
itself. And I bet burnt protoplasm buggers up the exhaust nozzles no
end.

Ken Brown




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Mar 12 10:18:20 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:18:20 -0800
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
In-Reply-To: <3AAD0B81.6829E5C9@sunder.net>
References: <3AABA9A8.1B76CC15@ssz.com> <3AAD0B81.6829E5C9@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6d2c2cdfe7e@[207.111.241.39]>


At 12:46 PM -0500 3/12/01, Sunder wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>>
>>  http://slashdot.org/features/01/03/10/0358220.shtml
>>
>
>And this has what to do with crypto exactly?
>

Since I filter Choate into my trash folder, I typically don't see his 
dozens of one-liners giving some URL he feels we should all look at.

I do check the contents of my trash folder occasionally. Sometimes to 
retrieve something I accidentally trashed, sometimes to see what junk 
has collected there, sometimes to make sure my filters are not 
filtering something they shouldn't.

It's amazing to see the volume of one-line URL pointers Choate spews.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From declan at well.com  Mon Mar 12 10:26:57 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:26:57 -0800
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com>



http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk_politics/newsid_1207000/1207355.stm

Some toy guns could be made illegal if the government goes ahead with its 
intention to ban replica firearms.

Home Office minister Charles Clarke revealed that such a move was possible 
when he spoke at an exhibition of seized fake weapons, which included 
imitation Uzi machine pistols and an SA-80 assault rifle.

Such replicas can be bought in shops or by mail order and are frequently used
by criminals.

The minister said replicas posed a "real threat" to society. 




From info at giganetstore.com  Mon Mar 12 02:46:32 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:46:32 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?D=EA_Musica_ao_seu_Pai!?=
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-------------- next part --------------
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From declan at well.com  Mon Mar 12 08:01:14 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:01:14 -0500
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists | Confidential source agreements
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311073942.5925p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 07:45:44AM -0600
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEAJCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311073942.5925p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010312110114.A14230@cluebot.com>


On Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 07:45:44AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

> And what was your first clue? I'm speaking of the Constitution as it was
> intended. You're as stupid as Declan (of course this should surprise
> nobody since both of you are protecting the status quo). Like I've said

Aimee, that's high praise, you know. :)

I believe that as a matter of principle, there is no difference between
what I do in my articles and what John Young does on cryptome.org. Both
of us *should* be treated by the law as professional journalists.

However, I also recognize that the law will likely not see things that
way, at least not yet.

-Declan




From storm_kulhan at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 11:49:25 2001
From: storm_kulhan at hotmail.com (storm)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:49:25 E. Australia Standard Time
Subject: #1 E-COMMERCE WEB SITE SOLUTIONS
Message-ID: <200103120156.JAA12871@public.jninfo.net.cn>

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From globaldatamarketing at smtp2.kvtech.com  Mon Mar 12 10:16:27 2001
From: globaldatamarketing at smtp2.kvtech.com (globaldatamarketing at smtp2.kvtech.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:16:27 -0600
Subject: 101 MILLION E-MAIL ADDRESSES JUST $79 US
Message-ID: <419.436962.49956065globaldatamarketing@smtp2.kvtech.com>


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 Email Address 
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 I understand that I am purchasing the 101 Million E-Mail Addresses List 
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 with all Software, once opened the CD may not be returned, however, if found 
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 NOT just hit reply, as this message hasn't come from that address. 
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From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Mar 12 12:45:22 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:45:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103121243170.14174-100000@clueserver.org>


Frank Zappa used the term "Drool Britania" to describe the government in
the UK.

I think he was right.

Next thing you know, it will be considered assault to hold your finger
like a gun and say "bang".  (If it is not already.)

Zero tollerance requires a zero IQ.

On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk_politics/newsid_1207000/1207355.stm
> 
> Some toy guns could be made illegal if the government goes ahead with its 
> intention to ban replica firearms.
> 
> Home Office minister Charles Clarke revealed that such a move was possible 
> when he spoke at an exhibition of seized fake weapons, which included 
> imitation Uzi machine pistols and an SA-80 assault rifle.
> 
> Such replicas can be bought in shops or by mail order and are frequently used
> by criminals.
> 
> The minister said replicas posed a "real threat" to society. 
> 
> 

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Mar 12 09:46:41 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:46:41 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
References: <3AABA9A8.1B76CC15@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AAD0B81.6829E5C9@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> http://slashdot.org/features/01/03/10/0358220.shtml
> 

And this has what to do with crypto exactly?


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From lvild at usa.net  Mon Mar 12 12:50:02 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 12 Mar 2001 12:50:02 PST
Subject: [Slashdot | Disposable Credit Card Numbers]
Message-ID: <20010312205002.25776.qmail@nwcst334.netaddress.usa.net>


With all due respect,
you are not being very constructive.

If I didn't know you better,
I'd say you are loud-mouthing to identify
those not contempt with the current system.
Could you be a legislator/policeman?

The system legitimizes its existence with
destructive/ambiguous comments like the one you've made.

Try changing the system with pro-positive thinking.


>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>       Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
>       Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
>       Democracy is dead.
> 
>                                    Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Mar 12 13:04:59 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:04:59 -0800
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103121243170.14174-100000@clueserver.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103121243170.14174-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <a05010403b6d2e9d92adf@[207.111.241.55]>


At 12:45 PM -0800 3/12/01, Alan Olsen wrote:
>Frank Zappa used the term "Drool Britania" to describe the government in
>the UK.
>
>I think he was right.
>
>Next thing you know, it will be considered assault to hold your finger
>like a gun and say "bang".  (If it is not already.)
>

Kids have been detained and expelled from schools for doing precisely 
this. "Zero tolerance." (Check new archives if interested...this was 
within the past several months.)

And I believe some gang banger types were busted for doing this in 
the direction of a cop in L.A. But maybe this was just in a movie, 
which reality is increasingly resembling.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Mar 12 10:58:40 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:58:40 -0500
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <v04220801b6d2c8f00adc@[198.4.94.206]>


Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> wrote:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk_politics/newsid_1207000/1207355.stm
>
>Some toy guns could be made illegal if the government goes ahead 
>with its intention to ban replica firearms.
>
>Home Office minister Charles Clarke revealed that such a move was 
>possible when he spoke at an exhibition of seized fake weapons, 
>which included imitation Uzi machine pistols and an SA-80 assault 
>rifle.
>
>Such replicas can be bought in shops or by mail order and are frequently used
>by criminals.
>
>The minister said replicas posed a "real threat" to society.

The British can own single and double barrel shotguns, but only if 
they're licensed and registered and they can only use birdshot.  If 
you take a look at British gun magazines, you'll see advertisements 
for really good replica firearms-  They're kind of expensive though.

An unintended consequence to all of this prohibitionist activity, and 
a not altogether harmful one IMHO, is that the average citizen is 
losing more and more respect for the government.  And the ultimate 
unintended consequence is the logical choice between violating the 
law by owning an illegal fake firearm or by violating the law owning 
a real one.  Most people will choose owning a real one-

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
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From alphabeta121 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 12:13:10 2001
From: alphabeta121 at hotmail.com (Brent Mattis)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:13:10 -0600
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
Message-ID: <F128gx8VUkRacUtI9dm00000220@hotmail.com>


I really really doubt the enzyme responsible for catalysis would survive ten 
seconds of high grade peroxide.  Peroxide I think is a dead end, its a low 
energy fuel, w/ two products, water and oxygen.  The oxygen is high energy, 
perfect for oxidizing another fuel, but you would have to worry about the 
water suppressing that reaction.

alpha


>From: Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
>Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
>Subject: CDR: Re: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:51:50 +0000
>
>David Honig wrote:
> >
> > At 07:11 PM 3/11/01 -0500, Jim Windle wrote:
> > >According to Friday's Wall Street Journal spot platinum last closed at
> > $588 per ounce and is up from $473 per ounce one year ago.
> >
> > Fer chrissakes you can use a number of cheaper chemicals.  For those 
>annoying
> > satellite launches that you have to field-improvise, blood can be used 
>to
> > decompose peroxide :-)
>
>Oh, all you want is enzymes then? I bet we can rig something up with
>bacteria.  When it comes to making chemicals - well, chemicals without
>annoying heavy metals in them anyway - microbiology is your friend.
>Things that want nothing more than to reproduce themselves 3 times an
>hour tend to be quite easy to get hold of in bulk :-)  Kinder to the
>neighbours as well, unless you are in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Sudan in
>which case those nice men from the Pentagon will be sending a cruise
>missile your way as soon as they hear that you are getting into
>production scale.
>
>On the other hand I had this vague idea that peroxide sort of decomposed
>itself. And I bet burnt protoplasm buggers up the exhaust nozzles no
>end.
>
>Ken Brown

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Mar 12 11:46:34 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:46:34 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
References: <3AABA9A8.1B76CC15@ssz.com> <3AAD0B81.6829E5C9@sunder.net> <a05010400b6d2c2cdfe7e@[207.111.241.39]>
Message-ID: <3AAD279A.AC546509@sunder.net>


I don't mind so much that he surfs one or two news sites and posts a bunch of
urls.

I'd wish that:

1. he'd stick to on-topic articles and not give us any random shit he likes
2. he'd post a one or two paragraph quote from the article describing it
   under the urls.
3. put all the news stories from one site (slashdot for example) in one 
   email as if it were a digest.

The way he "helps" us is annoying at best and only one or two notches removed
from spam.

What pisses me off is that I actually do read slashdot regularly, and don't
need twenty or so emails a week with just urls.  It's pointless to send
them here if they don't generate discussions, and rarely do they ever.

Hey, it's great that someone this year will be able to clone humans.  It's
great that there's some guy up in canada that wants to build a napster clone
and use sealand, it's great that there are movie reviews out there, it's 
great that strides are being made in quantum computing, but none of it is
relevant here.

Hell, what's next?  I enjoy eating out once in a while, Jim, while it might
be entertaining for you to post restaurant reviews, it would also be off topic.

Well at least he's not emailing us entire web pages javascript and all
anymore...
I guess the lithium is helping a bit... if only he'd take some of the prozac 
too.

:)

> >Jim Choate wrote:
> >>
> >>  http://slashdot.org/features/01/03/10/0358220.shtml
> >>

> At 12:46 PM -0500 3/12/01, Sunder wrote:
> >And this has what to do with crypto exactly?
> >

Tim May wrote:

> 
> It's amazing to see the volume of one-line URL pointers Choate spews.
> 




-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Mar 12 11:52:30 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:52:30 -0500
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3AAD28FE.4CDE6383@sunder.net>


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk_politics/newsid_1207000/1207355.stm
> 
> Some toy guns could be made illegal if the government goes ahead with its
> intention to ban replica firearms.

Truly is thoughtcrime.
 
> Home Office minister Charles Clarke revealed that such a move was possible
> when he spoke at an exhibition of seized fake weapons, which included
> imitation Uzi machine pistols and an SA-80 assault rifle.
> 
> Such replicas can be bought in shops or by mail order and are frequently used
> by criminals.

So are soap, towels, shaving cream, aftershave, pints of guinesss, shoes,
underwear, socks, coats, sunglasses, hats, and other items.  Hey, let's
ban them all.  After all they're all frequently used by criminals.

> The minister said replicas posed a "real threat" to society.

This "Ministry of Truth" is the real threat.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From aluger at hushmail.com  Mon Mar 12 14:55:47 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:55:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Passive-Aggressive (Negativistic) Personality Disorder
  (PAPD) Case Study: Jim Choate
Message-ID: <200103122322.PAA13353@user1.hushmail.com>


>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Sunder wrote (referring to Jim Choate):
>
>> I'd wish that:
>> 
>> 1. he'd stick to on-topic articles and not give us any random shit 
>he likes

Mr. Choate replied:

>Every post I send is 'on topic' to crypto, civil liberties, or economics.

Sunder continues, along with Mr. Choate's replies:

>> 2. he'd post a one or two paragraph quote from the article describing 
>> it under the urls.
>
>Keep wanting.
>
>> 3. put all the news stories from one site (slashdot for example) in 
>> one email as if it were a digest.
>
>Keep wanting.
>
>> The way he "helps" us is annoying at best and only one or two notches 
>> removed from spam.
>
>What makes you think I'm wanting to 'help' you or whatever 'us' you're
>refering to.
>
>> What pisses me off is that I actually do read slashdot regularly, 
>>and don't
>
>You just want to be pissed off, and if you can make me the target so 
>much the better.
>
>    ____________________________________________________________________
>
>      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
>      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
>      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.
>
>                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved
>
>       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    ----------------------------------------------------------------

end quotation...

Discussion:

Essential Feature-

The passive-aggressive (negativistic) personality disorder is located in 
Appendix B: "Criteria Sets and Axes Provided for Further Study" of the DSM-
IV.  Millon (1996, p. 198) proposes a comprehensive concept of a negativistic 
personality.  He asserts that the negativistic personality reflects both 
this general contrariness and disinclination to do as others wish but also 
presents with a capricious impulsiveness, an irritable moodiness, and an 
unaccommodating, fault-finding pessimism.

The DSM-IV (1994, p. 733) describes the PAPD essential feature as a pervasive 
pattern of negativistic attitudes and passive resistance to demands for 
adequate performance in social and occupational settings. 

The subject, Choate, demonstrates these traits clearly, particularly in 
the context of responses to otherwise reasonable requests from the electronic 
social group "cypherpunks" from which the above samples are taken.

The general criteria of a personality disorder coupled with at least five 
of the following is sufficient to warrant a diagonsis of Passive-Aggressive 
Personality Disorder: procrastination and delay in completing essential 
tasks -- particularly those that others seek to have completed; unjustified 
protests that others make unreasonable demands; sulkiness, irritability 
or argumentativeness when asked to do something that the individual does 
not want to do; unreasonable criticism or scorn for authority figures; deliberately 
slow or poor work on unwanted tasks; obstruction of the efforts of others 
even as these individuals fail to do their share of the work; and avoidance 
of obligations by claiming to have forgotten them.

Examing the small sample above it is clear that Choate meets at least four 
of these subset criteria.  (This author has little doubt that a fifth will 
quickly emerge with further study).   Procrastination and delay in completing 
any of the tasks requested of him (the addition of more substantive summaries 
which acompany his rote contributions to the mailing list), unjustified 
protests that others make unreasonable demands (in the case of Sunder above,
 Choates responses to Sunder's request for a more digest format illustrates 
this), irritability or argumentativeness when asked to do something that 
the individual does not want to do (while Choate could easily have ignored 
the request, he chose instead to reply in an increasingly inflamatory and 
argumentative tone), unreasonable criticism or scorn for authority figures 
(as evidenced by material in his signature - "Legislators and Judges are 
the pimps of modern American society.")

The passive-aggressive personality disorder was first introduced in a U.S. 
War Department technical bulletin in 1945. The term was coined by wartime 
psychiatrists who found themselves dealing with reluctant and uncooperative 
soldiers who followed orders with chronic, veiled hostility and smoldering 
resentment. Their style was a mixture of passive resistance and grumbling 
compliance (Stone, 1993, p. 361). 

Choate's response seems to mirror this type of response quite closely and 
further study under the reference of Stone's work should be pursued.

The current criteria for the passive-aggressive personality disorder as 
proposed by the Personality Disorders Work Group for the DSM-IV includes: 

1. passive resistance to fulfilling social and occupational tasks through 
procrastination and inefficiency;
2. complaints of being misunderstood, unappreciated, and victimized by others;
3. sullenness, irritability, and argumentativeness in response to expectations;
4. angry and pessimistic attitudes toward a variety of events;
5. unreasonable criticism and scorn toward those in authority;
6. envy and resentment toward those who are more fortunate;
7. self-definition as luckless in life and an inclination to whine and grumble 
about being jinxed;
8. alternating behavior between hostile assertion of personal autonomy and 
dependent contrition (Millon & Radovanov, Livesley, ed., 1995, p. 321).

Millon suggests that the most essential features of PAPD are irritable affect; 
behavioral contrariness, obstructiveness, and sulking; discontented self-
image, e.g. feels unappreciated and misunderstood; deficient regulatory 
control, i.e. poorly modulated emotional expression; and interpersonal ambivalence. 
They are noted for their interpersonal conflict, verbal aggressiveness, 
and manipulative behavior. Suicidal gestures and a lack of attention to 
everyday responsibilities are common (Millon, 1996, p. 198). 

Little study is needed to recognize the diagnosis as a strong one for the 
subject Choate.

PAPD resistance to external demands is manifested in oppositional and obstructive 
behaviors. These individuals resent having to conform to the standards set 
by others. On the other hand, they fear direct confrontation. The combination 
of resentment and fear leads to passive, provocative behavior (as in the 
case of the subject Choate and Sunder exchange- wherein subject Choate incites 
Sunder and seeks to create a situation in which Sunder will escalate the 
rhetoric).

Individuals with PAPD view themselves as self-sufficient but feel vulnerable 
to control and interference from others (Pretzer & Beck, Clarkin & Lenzenweger,
 eds., 1996, p. 60). They believe that they are misunderstood and unappreciated,
 a view that is exacerbated by the negative responses they receive from 
others for their consistent defeatist stance. They expect the worst in everything,
 even situations that are going well, and are inclined toward anger and 
irritability (Beck & Freeman, 1990, p. 339) (DSM-IV, 1994, p. 734).  Subject 
Choate demonstrates this classically, particularly in the context of his 
often sardonicly defeatist and pessimistic inclusions in the titles of his 
contributions).

Individuals with PAPD are often disgruntled and declare that they are not 
treated as they should be. On the other hand, they are just as likely to 
express feeling unworthy of good fortune. They have a basic conflict concerning 
their self-worth; they oscillate between self-loathing and entitlement or 
moral superiority. Either side of this oscillation can be projected onto 
the environment. The chaotic nature of this experience of self and others 
often leads to people beginning to avoid or minimize contact with people 
with PAPD out of self-protection (Richards, 1993, p. 259).

Individuals with PAPD see others as intrusive, demanding, interfering, controlling,
 and dominating. They believe that other people interfere with their freedom. 
They experience control by others as intolerable; they have to do things 
their own way (Pretzer & Beck, Clarkin & Lenzenweger, eds., 1996, p. 60). 
These individuals are determined that they will not be subject to the rules 
of others (Beck & Freeman, 1990, p. 227). They resent, oppose, and resist 
demands to meet expectations from others in a behavioral pattern seen in 
both work and social settings (DSM-IV, 1994, p. 733). Their main coping 
strategies are passive resistance, surface submissiveness, evasion, and 
circumventing of rules (Pretzer & Beck, Clarkin & Lenzenweger, eds., 1996,
 p. 60). 

Individuals with passive-aggressive (negativistic) personality disorder 
are ambivalent within their relationships and conflicted between their dependency 
needs and their desire for self-assertion. They waver between expressing 
hostile defiance toward people they see as causing their problems and attempting 
to mollify these people by asking forgiveness or promising to do better 
in the future (DSM-IV, 1994, p. 734). 

These individuals are noted for the stormy nature of their interpersonal 
relationships. They engage in a combination of quarrelsomeness and submissiveness. 
Their affect is sullen and they engage in deliberate rudeness. They are 
resentfully quarrelsome and irritable. They often feel like a victim. Central 
to the disorder is a pervasive pattern of argumentativeness and oppositional 
behavior with defeatist and negative attitudes (Millon & Radovanov, Livesley,
 ed., 1995, p. 317). Richards (1993, p. 260) believes that PAPD may be the 
most miserable personality disorder. These individuals inflict a great deal 
of discomfort on others through the use of their anxiety and emotional symptoms. 
They can become so destructive in their attitudes and so unable to provide 
rewards to others that they become socially isolated. 

For individuals with PAPD, authority figures can become the focus of their 
discontentment. They often criticize and voice hostility toward authority 
figures with minimal provocation. Their resistance toward authority is expressed 
by procrastination, forgetfulness, stubbornness, and intentional inefficiency. 
These individuals are also envious of and resentful toward peers who succeed 
or are viewed positively by authority figures (DSM-IV, 1994, pp. 733-734). 

Authority figures are seen by individuals with passive-aggressive (negativistic) 
personality disorder as arbitrary and unfair. When they are faced with the 
consequences of not adequately meeting obligations, these individuals will 
become angry at those in authority rather than seeing how their own behavior 
has contributed to the situation (Beck & Freeman, 1990, p. 339). Authority 
figures are defined as intrusive, demanding, interfering, controlling, and 
dominating. On the other hand, individuals with PAPD also see authority 
figures as capable of being approving, accepting, and caring. A key issue 
for individuals with PAPD is the desire to get benefits from authority figures 
while exerting their freedom and autonomy (Beck & Freeman, 1990, p. 45). 

The conflict is intense. Individuals with PAPD have a tendency to see any 
form of power as inconsiderate and neglectful. They are also likely to believe 
that authorities or caregivers are incompetent, unfair, and cruel. Nevertheless,
 these individuals are not inclined to rebel directly. They will agree to 
comply with demands or suggestions but will often fail to perform (or they 
will perform while experiencing increasing resentment). Then, when there 
is trouble, these individuals will complain of unfair treatment. They envy 
and resent others who manage authority situations and who are able to relate 
to authorities with less difficulty. These individuals believe that their 
suffering indicts the negligent caregiver or authority figure. They fear 
control in any form but long for nurturing restitution from those they perceive 
as having power (Benjamin, 1993, p. 272). 

Origins of PAPD in the Subject Choate-

Stone (1993, p. 361) suggests that the contrary, sulking, and verbal nitpicking 
behaviors of PAPD appear to have their origin in unending power struggles 
with parents. The comparative helplessness of youth made it impossible to 
win in these struggles so the face-saving technique of passive resistance 
was employed. Parental overcontrol, neglect, or favoring of a sibling can 
all contribute to the development of the silent protest and grudging obedience 
associated with PAPD (Stone, 1993, p. 361). 

It is reasonable to assume that Subject Choate expereinced some level of 
paternal angst and the description of unending power struggles seems apt 
in this context.

Treatment-

There are two major ways for individuals with PAPD to enter treatment. The 
first, and most common, is externally leveraged treatment for those individuals 
who do not see themselves as having a problem. Someone forced them into 
treatment, e.g., family, employers, or the legal system. These clients with 
PAPD have minimal insight; they fail to admit that they are a major factor 
in the problems they have. The second method for individuals with PAPD to 
enter treatment is via self-referral for vague complaints, e.g. "I'm just 
not getting anywhere" (Turkat, 1990, pp. 87-88). 

All of the personality disorders are composed mostly of abrasive traits 
that are negative in nature. Maladaptive traits are usually favored over 
adaptive traits (though there are adaptive traits within all personality 
disorders) (Kantor, 1992, p. 10). PAPD is a particularly abrasive personality 
and interpersonal problems are readily identifiable. However, individuals 
with PAPD do not frequently seek treatment for relationship issues as they 
consistently blame others for the problems they have. Even if they do come 
in for treatment for a marital or parent and child problem, they will uniformly 
demand that the treatment providers "fix" the other person or persons who 
are at fault for the problems within the relationship. 

Treatment for individuals with PAPD involves openly exploring the ways they 
indirectly and unassertively express aggression and neediness toward others 
by being contrary. Understanding this aggression can allow discovery of 
the depressive and invalidating experiences underneath -- which lead to 
a fear of loss of autonomy when others want to be close and a fear of loss 
of connectedness when others want to be alone (Kubacki & Smith, Retzlaff,
 ed., 1995, p. 175).

This author believes that Subject Choate is unlikely to seek treatment individually 
and should be compelled to seek treatment in whatever fashion is most likely 
to produce results.

Study continues...
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Mon Mar 12 13:23:34 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:23:34 -0600
Subject: Salon.com Life | China jails teacher over Web remark
Message-ID: <3AAD3E56.E2C1C494@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.salon.com/mwt/wire/2001/03/12/china_teacher/index.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Mar 12 15:52:17 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:52:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: If law is based on precedence
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312173017.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103121548540.14757-100000@clueserver.org>


On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Why is the Constitution not the root precedent?

Because that system gott r00ted long ago.

We live in a country that is governed by how prosecutors feel about the
case, not what the law says.

The game is rigged by the people running it.

We don't have a fair legal system any more.  It is more like a carny game
and the common folk are the rubes who get taken.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From aluger at hushmail.com  Mon Mar 12 15:53:18 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:53:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Passive-Aggressive (Negativistic) Personality Disorder
Message-ID: <200103122353.PAA16025@user1.hushmail.com>


At Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:56:49 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com> 
wrote:

>
>Cool, we've got two wanna be head-shrinkers. This is gonna be fun.

A common countertransference issue with these clients is outrage or punitive 
anger. They are manipulative individuals who are consistently stubborn, 
demanding, help-rejecting, critical, and inclined to ridicule both the treatment 
process and the service providers.  Subject Choate has predictably responded 
in exactly this fashion to the onset of treatment.

Identify all avoidance and anxiety-arousing situations. Address these issues 
with anxiety-management behavioral intervention techniques (Turkat, 1990,
 pp. 88-89). Cognitive therapy can help these individuals understand that 
they expect the worst from others and then proceed to behave in such a way 
that brings out the worst from these same people (Stone, 1993, p. 363). 

Group therapy provides individuals with PAPD with an opportunity to learn 
how to manage their hostility. When their hostility emerges, group leaders 
can comment on hostile behavior and encourage other group members to respond. 
The group leader can assist these individuals to process what it is they 
want or need at that moment and to rehearse appropriate behavior within 
the group context (Ries, TIP #9, 1994, p. 72). 


Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From aluger at hushmail.com  Mon Mar 12 16:35:44 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:35:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Consensus? We don't need no stinkin' consensus...
Message-ID: <200103130048.QAA21318@user1.hushmail.com>


At Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:43:55 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com> 
wrote:

>Resentment? I'm not resentful. I'm engulfed in a melange of shock, horror,
>and hillarity. The insanity of man against man, and the hoops they'll 
>jump through to get satisfaction. After all, it's not entertainment but
>satisfaction that is what drives mankind.

PAPD Ambivalence:

PAPD ambivalence is expressed behaviorally by vacillation between negativism/autonomy 
and dependency/conformity. However, even when conforming, these individuals 
tend to be contrary, unaccommodating, sulking, pessimistic, and complaining 
(Kubacki & Smith, Retzlaff, ed., 1995, p. 175). People with PAPD will behave 
obediently one time and defiantly the next. They will be self-deprecating 
and express guilt for failing to meet expectations in one situation and 
express stubborn negativism and resistance in another. They fluctuate between 
deference and defiance, between obedience and aggressive negativism. Their 
behavior will go from explosive anger or stubbornness to periods of guilt 
and shame (Millon & Davis, Clarkin & Lenzenweger, eds., 1996, p. 309). 

>What consensus might that be? The 'crypto-anarchy' good-old-boy consensus?
>The Freidman'esk "making money justifies all wrongs" contingent? The 
>"It's wrong they regulate any of my actions, but I'm going to regulate 
yours."?
>team. Or perhaps "I'm too damn lazy to start my own node and take the 
>heat but I'll sure bitch and whine when others don't do as I say" clan?

Individuals with PAPD will express their rage overtly and directly. Aggressive 
PAPD behavior is intended to inflict discomfort, hurt, harm, injury, or 
destruction. These individuals have a disposition toward anger and aggression 
-- referred to irritability (Lish, et.al., Costello, ed., 1996, p. 32). 
They may have temper tantrums that release pent-up aggression; if their 
victim is aggressive in response -- so much the better. That response is 
then used to vindicate the initial attack. Anger expressed by commission 
is usually justified by laudable motives, e.g. concern for the well-being 
of the victim. The expression of the anger is dictated by the desire to 
wound while concealing the intention to wound -- even the existence of the 
anger. This is not to spare the feelings of the victim but to wound them 
more effectively. The intent is to provoke counteranger with such subtlety 
that the victim blames himself and believes his anger is not justified. 
That way, people with PAPD can assume the role of innocent victim (Kantor,
 1992, pp. 178-180). They may make directly hostile statements because they 
fail to perceive their own motivating attitude, perceive their hostility 
too late, or believe that their attitude can be concealed. 

>There is no authority on 'the' list because there are 8 lists that share 
>a common backbone (by consensus of the operators, not users, I might add).
>The only parties who have authority to impose any sort of list behaviour 
>regulations are the specific operators of those mail reflectors. We 
>have several that limit what goes out to their subscribers, I don't believe 
>we have any that limit what their subscribers may submit. However, that 
>is clearly within the scope of the current agreement. Start a list and 
>filter both ends. A 2-way list if you will ;)

Individuals with passive-aggressive (negativistic) personality disorder 
utilize three main strategies to defend themselves: displacement, externalization,
 and opposition. The most consistent PAPD defense mechanism is displacement. 
These individuals shift their anger away from more powerful targets to those 
of lesser significance. They express their hostility toward others who are 
less likely to be able to retaliate or reject them. 

>I would think that a group so sophisticated as you claim to be, and 
>as motivated by money would recognize the simple dicta "Money speaks". 
>What you boys are pissed off 'bout is that it's my money doin' the speakin' 
>and it ain't what ya expected.

People with PAPD externalize their focus and cannot accept blame for any 
of their shortcomings (Stone, 1993, p. 361). They deny or refuse awareness 
of their own provocative behavior, the serious negative consequences of 
their maladaptive responses, and responsibility for the behavioral choices 
they make. Instead, they focus on the many grievances they have toward others. 
They focus on the behavior of others and externalize responsibility for 
their destructive actions. 

>The majority of subscribers don't ever post, they sit there and get 
>the occassional techie item and sit about laughing their asses off. I'm 
>glad they find joy and humor in this. It is after all hilarious at times.

This behavior is often well tolerated in highly conflicted family systems. 
They will also find a place in work settings where there are relatively 
few consequences to nonproductive behavior and there are either few rewards 
or rewards are distributed arbitrarily (Richards, 1993, p. 259). 

PAPD behavior is basically oppositional and provocative. While these individuals 
may seem, on occasion, to be compliant and agreeable, they are judgmental,
 irritable, and easily frustrated. They resist adequate performance through 
stubbornness, forgetfulness, lateness, deliberate inefficiency, and procrastination 
(Sperry & Carlson, 1993, p. 336). The opposite of the behavior appropriate 
to a given situation is the one most likely to be expressed by individuals 
with PAPD -- hence the negativistic personality.  

>Do what you will, start your own list, filter me, start another node,
>keep bitching. Whatever. If I have something to say I'm going to say it. 
>I'll do my best to keep it short and too the point. I don't make any promise 
>it will be related to any point you might have however.

These individuals express an irritable or sour mood; aggression is usually 
pouting and complaining. They are frequently depressed or sulking and gain 
perverse pleasure in raining on everyone's parade -- even their own (Richards,
 1993, p. 258). These individuals focus on the negative; they are moody 
and pessimistic (Beck & Freeman, 1990, p. 334). 

It is typical for passive-aggressive individuals to be cynical, doubting,
 and untrusting. They approach most events in their lives with a measure 
of disbelief and skepticism. Future possibilities are approached with trepidation. 
Most tend to be whiny and grumbling in their approach to life and voice 
disdain and caustic comments toward people who are experiencing good fortune 
(Millon & Davis, 1996, p. 551). These individuals tend to be quite articulate 
in describing their discomfort but rarely explore or seek to understand 
what is wrong. They do not recognize their own inner conflicts as contributing 
to their difficulties. They are often preoccupied with personal inadequacies,
 body ailments, and guilt; this alternates with equal preoccupation with 
social resentment, frustration, and disillusionment. They complain about 
the sorry state of their lives; they would like to feel better but seem 
unable or unwilling to find a solution to their difficulties (Millon, 1981,
 p. 255). 

>After all, how serious can you take somebody who is more concerned about
>the word 'whore' and 'police' in the same sentence than the fact that 
>the sentence is even being considered at all? Pull your head out of your 
>ass. If western civilization is going to tumble down because of my .sig 
then
>it's already dead.

They may remain unaware of the implications of their behavior or words (Kantor,
 1992, p. 178). PAPD avoidance of taking responsibility for the provocative 
consequences of anger produces paranoid overtones. These individuals are 
often surprised at the response they provoke; they typically deny having 
given cause for the angry responses they receive or they accuse others of 
overreacting. Many of these individuals will endure growing isolation rather 
than alter or give up what they believe to be their right to free expression 
(Kantor, 1992, p. 182). 

Major depressive episodes are not uncommon. In the PAPD depressive cycles,
 there is evidence of a tendency to blame others, a demanding and complaining 
attitude, and low self-confidence. These individuals are most likely to 
experience chronic dysthymia. Typically, individuals with PAPD display an 
agitated dysphoria, shifting between anxious futility and self-deprecation 
to demanding irritability and bitter discontent (Millon, 1996, pp. 198-199). 

>Duh.

The passive-aggressive personality disorder might be described as a compulsive 
personality with an attitude. 

Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From andrew at security.za.net  Mon Mar 12 06:41:45 2001
From: andrew at security.za.net (Andrew Alston)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:41:45 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: cypherpunks - Make $2000 a Week -ATES
In-Reply-To: <200103121409.GAA18533@cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103121641360.80992-100000@security.za.net>




On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, EarnMor wrote:

> Over the last couple weeks I've been telling you about a unique way to earn up to or over $2000 a 
> week with minimal effort on your part.  All you need to do is advertise our toll-free number, and 
> our professional sales staff will take care of the rest.  And they pull in about 20% of all calls 
> received as sales for you.  Think of the possibilities!
> 
> -	No Selling
> -	No Talking to Anyone
> -	No Inventory
> -	No Monthly Purchases
> -	No Hassles
> -	Weekly Checks
> 
> Your weekly checks will be delivered faithfully to your home, made up of $100 per direct sale, and 
> $50 for each sale made by someone in your downline.  Once you start, your weekly income just 
> keeps rising!
> 
> But that's not the only reason to join.  Even if you're not interested in the business opportunity 
> (but why wouldn't you be?!!), the opportunity to join this discount club is too good to pass up.  
> Everyday items like groceries and film are discounted, along with larger, more occasional 
> purchases.  In itself, this membership is worth it.  Go to my web site TODAY and find out more!
> 
> http://www.earnmor.com/5131
> 
> 
> 




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Mar 12 16:45:52 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:45:52 -0800
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLNCNPJBIFMFEOAFBKEFPEPAA.feanor@gondolin.org>
References: <NEBBLNCNPJBIFMFEOAFBKEFPEPAA.feanor@gondolin.org>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6d31d87e176@[207.111.241.55]>


At 6:36 PM -0500 3/12/01, Bryan Strawser wrote:
>I personally am getting tired of seeing them, particularly since I read
>Salon and Slashdot pretty religiously...
>

You mean you are not also reading The Register, CNET, and Silicon Investor?

Following Choate's example, I will start forwarding a dozen or so 
URLs, every day, of things I find mildly interesting from these sites.

Someone else can take care of Raging Bull, EPIC, Macintouch....

--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 14:50:28 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:50:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
In-Reply-To: <3AAD0B81.6829E5C9@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312164954.5925K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



I'd hate to spoil the 'ahah!' for you...

On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > http://slashdot.org/features/01/03/10/0358220.shtml
> > 
> 
> And this has what to do with crypto exactly?

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 14:52:07 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:52:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Attorney for a Mutton Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <014a01c0ab20$d9c2cf60$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312165044.5925L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Daniel J. Boone wrote:

> The Usual Suspect wrote:
> 
> 1: >Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
> 2: >Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
> 3: >Democracy is dead.
> 
> Line 1:  See my .sig.

Yeah, so what.

> Line 2:  Some of us choose our clients with greater
> care than others.

Which is irrelevant to the point I'm making.

> And as for Line 3, would that it were so!  As the wise
> man said:
> 
> "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."

The wise man isn't so wise, he (and you) clearly don't understand
'democracy'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 14:54:54 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:54:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
In-Reply-To: <3AAD279A.AC546509@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312165308.5925M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Sunder wrote:

> I'd wish that:
> 
> 1. he'd stick to on-topic articles and not give us any random shit he likes

Every post I send is 'on topic' to crypto, civil liberties, or economics.

> 2. he'd post a one or two paragraph quote from the article describing it
>    under the urls.

Keep wanting.

> 3. put all the news stories from one site (slashdot for example) in one 
>    email as if it were a digest.

Keep wanting.

> The way he "helps" us is annoying at best and only one or two notches removed
> from spam.

What makes you think I'm wanting to 'help' you or whatever 'us' you're
refering to.

> What pisses me off is that I actually do read slashdot regularly, and don't

You just want to be pissed off, and if you can make me the target so much 
the better.

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 14:55:39 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:55:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103121243170.14174-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312165514.5925N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:

> Next thing you know, it will be considered assault to hold your finger
> like a gun and say "bang".  (If it is not already.)

That can get you arrested for 'making a threat' here in the states.

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 14:58:55 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:58:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Slashdot | Disposable Credit Card Numbers]
In-Reply-To: <20010312205002.25776.qmail@nwcst334.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312165552.5925O-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On 12 Mar 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

> With all due respect,
> you are not being very constructive.

I call 'em like I see 'em.

To quote Blixa,

"Destruction is not negative, you must destroy to build."

> If I didn't know you better,

You don't 'know' me at all.

The most positive thing one can do is exercise their constitutional 
rights.

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From aluger at hushmail.com  Mon Mar 12 17:08:16 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:08:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: An observation about 'cypherpunks'
Message-ID: <200103130106.RAA23924@user1.hushmail.com>


At Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:17:42 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com> 
wrote:

>Out of the half-dozen or so lists I frequent, the 'Cypherpunks' is the
>only list where anyone, and I mean anyone, has said anything about my
>previous sig, privately or on the list.
>
>I wonder what that says, hmmmmmm......

All of the personality disorders are composed mostly of abrasive traits 
that are negative in nature. Maladaptive traits are usually favored over 
adaptive traits (though there are adaptive traits within all personality 
disorders) (Kantor, 1992, p. 10). PAPD is a particularly abrasive personality 
and interpersonal problems are readily identifiable. However, individuals 
with PAPD do not frequently seek treatment for relationship issues as they 
consistently blame others for the problems they have. Even if they do come 
in for treatment for a marital or parent and child problem, they will uniformly 
demand that the treatment providers "fix" the other person or persons who 
are at fault for the problems within the relationship. 
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 15:30:33 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:30:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: If law is based on precedence
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312173017.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Why is the Constitution not the root precedent?

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Mon Mar 12 17:51:52 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:51:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Consensus? We don't need no stinkin' consensus...
In-Reply-To: <200103130048.QAA21318@user1.hushmail.com> from "aluger@hushmail.com" at Mar 12, 2001 04:35:44 PM
Message-ID: <200103130151.f2D1pqD01669@artifact.psychedelic.net>


An anonymous twit writes:

> Anger expressed by commission is usually justified by laudable motives,
> e.g. concern for the well-being of the victim. The expression of the
> anger is dictated by the desire to wound while concealing the intention
> to wound -- even the existence of the anger. This is not to spare the
> feelings of the victim but to wound them more effectively. The intent is
> to provoke counteranger with such subtlety that the victim blames
> himself and believes his anger is not justified.  That way, people with
> PAPD can assume the role of innocent victim (Kantor, 1992,
> pp. 178-180). They may make directly hostile statements because they
> fail to perceive their own motivating attitude, perceive their hostility
> too late, or believe that their attitude can be concealed.

Can't we do without Victimologist prattle on a cryptography and privacy
list?  Shrinks should be next after all the lawyers are fed to the lions.

"Medicalizing" your opponent's argument, instead of responding to it, is a
tactic of police states, religious nuts, controlling relatives, and
idiots.  

Which one are you?

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 15:54:23 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:54:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
In-Reply-To: <200103122315.SAA10940@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312173930.5925S-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Wow, I got some money? When? From where?

You really should get your facts straight or your dose adjusted, John.

I was hired on the week IBM bought Tivoli. I didn't get a penny. Never
heard of Tivoli until they walked into the local Linux user group I was
helping run and asked me to come in for a job interview. Biggest network
I'd ever seen was about 50 machines, now 10,000 is itty bitty. Didn't know 
anything about IBM buying them out, and nobody outside of Tivoli & IBM did
either (well some lawyers perhaps). I was working at the local Community
College on a 'Semiconductor Technology' course to train folks for the
various fab's around Austin. It's only the 4th one to ever get accredited
by all the major manufacturers. I was the technical lead, responsible for
course content, lab design, etc. Not bad for somebody without a degree
I've always felt. Outside of that I ran their books, managed purchasing,
and did the occassional tutoring across the full electronics course
schedule. I worked there about 2.5 years. Before that I'd worked for
Compu-Add, coming on board to do technical support for Desert Storm
(though we didn't know it at the time) and their Point-of-Sale line.

As to my technical and troubleshooting skills, I'll let anyone who has
worked for me or directly with me answer that. Anyone else isn't qualified
to even have an opinion.

I would like to also add that I'm glad I don't live in NY. Any state that
would let somebody like you practice medicine without a license is not
someplace I want to even visit.

On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, John Young wrote:

> To those tracking Jim's signature for future prosecution
> I'd like to state that he's a nut and has no control over
> what he thinks, writes, posts, declares, corrects, impunes,
> mocks, refuses, acts on, reacts stupidly to, misses by a
> mile, mischaracterizes scientifically, rats on, and slaughters
> with unintended belly laughter. He suffers dementia from 
> a windfall due to Tivoli's buyout by mad cow diseased 
> IBM. Until that day when Jim got a bunch of money he
> didn't deserve, and it was a glorious moment we all
> dream of, he was rational and could be approached
> with safety. Not any more.

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 15:56:49 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:56:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Passive-Aggressive (Negativistic) Personality Disorder
  (PAPD) Case Study: Jim Choate
In-Reply-To: <200103122322.PAA13353@user1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312175507.5925T-100000@einstein.ssz.com>


Cool, we've got two wanna be head-shrinkers. This is gonna be fun.

Lay on McDuff...

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------


On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 aluger at hushmail.com wrote:

> Discussion:
> 
> Essential Feature-
> 
> The passive-aggressive (negativistic) personality disorder is located in 
> Appendix B: "Criteria Sets and Axes Provided for Further Study" of the DSM-
> IV.  Millon (1996, p. 198) proposes a comprehensive concept of a negativistic 
> personality.  He asserts that the negativistic personality reflects both 
> this general contrariness and disinclination to do as others wish but also 
> presents with a capricious impulsiveness, an irritable moodiness, and an 
> unaccommodating, fault-finding pessimism.
> 
> The DSM-IV (1994, p. 733) describes the PAPD essential feature as a pervasive 
> pattern of negativistic attitudes and passive resistance to demands for 
> adequate performance in social and occupational settings. 
> 
> The subject, Choate, demonstrates these traits clearly, particularly in 
> the context of responses to otherwise reasonable requests from the electronic 
> social group "cypherpunks" from which the above samples are taken.
> 
> The general criteria of a personality disorder coupled with at least five 
> of the following is sufficient to warrant a diagonsis of Passive-Aggressive 
> Personality Disorder: procrastination and delay in completing essential 
> tasks -- particularly those that others seek to have completed; unjustified 
> protests that others make unreasonable demands; sulkiness, irritability 
> or argumentativeness when asked to do something that the individual does 
> not want to do; unreasonable criticism or scorn for authority figures; deliberately 
> slow or poor work on unwanted tasks; obstruction of the efforts of others 
> even as these individuals fail to do their share of the work; and avoidance 
> of obligations by claiming to have forgotten them.
> 
> Examing the small sample above it is clear that Choate meets at least four 
> of these subset criteria.  (This author has little doubt that a fifth will 
> quickly emerge with further study).   Procrastination and delay in completing 
> any of the tasks requested of him (the addition of more substantive summaries 
> which acompany his rote contributions to the mailing list), unjustified 
> protests that others make unreasonable demands (in the case of Sunder above,
>  Choates responses to Sunder's request for a more digest format illustrates 
> this), irritability or argumentativeness when asked to do something that 
> the individual does not want to do (while Choate could easily have ignored 
> the request, he chose instead to reply in an increasingly inflamatory and 
> argumentative tone), unreasonable criticism or scorn for authority figures 
> (as evidenced by material in his signature - "Legislators and Judges are 
> the pimps of modern American society.")
> 
> The passive-aggressive personality disorder was first introduced in a U.S. 
> War Department technical bulletin in 1945. The term was coined by wartime 
> psychiatrists who found themselves dealing with reluctant and uncooperative 
> soldiers who followed orders with chronic, veiled hostility and smoldering 
> resentment. Their style was a mixture of passive resistance and grumbling 
> compliance (Stone, 1993, p. 361). 
> 
> Choate's response seems to mirror this type of response quite closely and 
> further study under the reference of Stone's work should be pursued.
> 
> The current criteria for the passive-aggressive personality disorder as 
> proposed by the Personality Disorders Work Group for the DSM-IV includes: 
> 
> 1. passive resistance to fulfilling social and occupational tasks through 
> procrastination and inefficiency;
> 2. complaints of being misunderstood, unappreciated, and victimized by others;
> 3. sullenness, irritability, and argumentativeness in response to expectations;
> 4. angry and pessimistic attitudes toward a variety of events;
> 5. unreasonable criticism and scorn toward those in authority;
> 6. envy and resentment toward those who are more fortunate;
> 7. self-definition as luckless in life and an inclination to whine and grumble 
> about being jinxed;
> 8. alternating behavior between hostile assertion of personal autonomy and 
> dependent contrition (Millon & Radovanov, Livesley, ed., 1995, p. 321).
> 
> Millon suggests that the most essential features of PAPD are irritable affect; 
> behavioral contrariness, obstructiveness, and sulking; discontented self-
> image, e.g. feels unappreciated and misunderstood; deficient regulatory 
> control, i.e. poorly modulated emotional expression; and interpersonal ambivalence. 
> They are noted for their interpersonal conflict, verbal aggressiveness, 
> and manipulative behavior. Suicidal gestures and a lack of attention to 
> everyday responsibilities are common (Millon, 1996, p. 198). 
> 
> Little study is needed to recognize the diagnosis as a strong one for the 
> subject Choate.
> 
> PAPD resistance to external demands is manifested in oppositional and obstructive 
> behaviors. These individuals resent having to conform to the standards set 
> by others. On the other hand, they fear direct confrontation. The combination 
> of resentment and fear leads to passive, provocative behavior (as in the 
> case of the subject Choate and Sunder exchange- wherein subject Choate incites 
> Sunder and seeks to create a situation in which Sunder will escalate the 
> rhetoric).
> 
> Individuals with PAPD view themselves as self-sufficient but feel vulnerable 
> to control and interference from others (Pretzer & Beck, Clarkin & Lenzenweger,
>  eds., 1996, p. 60). They believe that they are misunderstood and unappreciated,
>  a view that is exacerbated by the negative responses they receive from 
> others for their consistent defeatist stance. They expect the worst in everything,
>  even situations that are going well, and are inclined toward anger and 
> irritability (Beck & Freeman, 1990, p. 339) (DSM-IV, 1994, p. 734).  Subject 
> Choate demonstrates this classically, particularly in the context of his 
> often sardonicly defeatist and pessimistic inclusions in the titles of his 
> contributions).
> 
> Individuals with PAPD are often disgruntled and declare that they are not 
> treated as they should be. On the other hand, they are just as likely to 
> express feeling unworthy of good fortune. They have a basic conflict concerning 
> their self-worth; they oscillate between self-loathing and entitlement or 
> moral superiority. Either side of this oscillation can be projected onto 
> the environment. The chaotic nature of this experience of self and others 
> often leads to people beginning to avoid or minimize contact with people 
> with PAPD out of self-protection (Richards, 1993, p. 259).
> 
> Individuals with PAPD see others as intrusive, demanding, interfering, controlling,
>  and dominating. They believe that other people interfere with their freedom. 
> They experience control by others as intolerable; they have to do things 
> their own way (Pretzer & Beck, Clarkin & Lenzenweger, eds., 1996, p. 60). 
> These individuals are determined that they will not be subject to the rules 
> of others (Beck & Freeman, 1990, p. 227). They resent, oppose, and resist 
> demands to meet expectations from others in a behavioral pattern seen in 
> both work and social settings (DSM-IV, 1994, p. 733). Their main coping 
> strategies are passive resistance, surface submissiveness, evasion, and 
> circumventing of rules (Pretzer & Beck, Clarkin & Lenzenweger, eds., 1996,
>  p. 60). 
> 
> Individuals with passive-aggressive (negativistic) personality disorder 
> are ambivalent within their relationships and conflicted between their dependency 
> needs and their desire for self-assertion. They waver between expressing 
> hostile defiance toward people they see as causing their problems and attempting 
> to mollify these people by asking forgiveness or promising to do better 
> in the future (DSM-IV, 1994, p. 734). 
> 
> These individuals are noted for the stormy nature of their interpersonal 
> relationships. They engage in a combination of quarrelsomeness and submissiveness. 
> Their affect is sullen and they engage in deliberate rudeness. They are 
> resentfully quarrelsome and irritable. They often feel like a victim. Central 
> to the disorder is a pervasive pattern of argumentativeness and oppositional 
> behavior with defeatist and negative attitudes (Millon & Radovanov, Livesley,
>  ed., 1995, p. 317). Richards (1993, p. 260) believes that PAPD may be the 
> most miserable personality disorder. These individuals inflict a great deal 
> of discomfort on others through the use of their anxiety and emotional symptoms. 
> They can become so destructive in their attitudes and so unable to provide 
> rewards to others that they become socially isolated. 
> 
> For individuals with PAPD, authority figures can become the focus of their 
> discontentment. They often criticize and voice hostility toward authority 
> figures with minimal provocation. Their resistance toward authority is expressed 
> by procrastination, forgetfulness, stubbornness, and intentional inefficiency. 
> These individuals are also envious of and resentful toward peers who succeed 
> or are viewed positively by authority figures (DSM-IV, 1994, pp. 733-734). 
> 
> Authority figures are seen by individuals with passive-aggressive (negativistic) 
> personality disorder as arbitrary and unfair. When they are faced with the 
> consequences of not adequately meeting obligations, these individuals will 
> become angry at those in authority rather than seeing how their own behavior 
> has contributed to the situation (Beck & Freeman, 1990, p. 339). Authority 
> figures are defined as intrusive, demanding, interfering, controlling, and 
> dominating. On the other hand, individuals with PAPD also see authority 
> figures as capable of being approving, accepting, and caring. A key issue 
> for individuals with PAPD is the desire to get benefits from authority figures 
> while exerting their freedom and autonomy (Beck & Freeman, 1990, p. 45). 
> 
> The conflict is intense. Individuals with PAPD have a tendency to see any 
> form of power as inconsiderate and neglectful. They are also likely to believe 
> that authorities or caregivers are incompetent, unfair, and cruel. Nevertheless,
>  these individuals are not inclined to rebel directly. They will agree to 
> comply with demands or suggestions but will often fail to perform (or they 
> will perform while experiencing increasing resentment). Then, when there 
> is trouble, these individuals will complain of unfair treatment. They envy 
> and resent others who manage authority situations and who are able to relate 
> to authorities with less difficulty. These individuals believe that their 
> suffering indicts the negligent caregiver or authority figure. They fear 
> control in any form but long for nurturing restitution from those they perceive 
> as having power (Benjamin, 1993, p. 272). 
> 
> Origins of PAPD in the Subject Choate-
> 
> Stone (1993, p. 361) suggests that the contrary, sulking, and verbal nitpicking 
> behaviors of PAPD appear to have their origin in unending power struggles 
> with parents. The comparative helplessness of youth made it impossible to 
> win in these struggles so the face-saving technique of passive resistance 
> was employed. Parental overcontrol, neglect, or favoring of a sibling can 
> all contribute to the development of the silent protest and grudging obedience 
> associated with PAPD (Stone, 1993, p. 361). 
> 
> It is reasonable to assume that Subject Choate expereinced some level of 
> paternal angst and the description of unending power struggles seems apt 
> in this context.
> 
> Treatment-
> 
> There are two major ways for individuals with PAPD to enter treatment. The 
> first, and most common, is externally leveraged treatment for those individuals 
> who do not see themselves as having a problem. Someone forced them into 
> treatment, e.g., family, employers, or the legal system. These clients with 
> PAPD have minimal insight; they fail to admit that they are a major factor 
> in the problems they have. The second method for individuals with PAPD to 
> enter treatment is via self-referral for vague complaints, e.g. "I'm just 
> not getting anywhere" (Turkat, 1990, pp. 87-88). 
> 
> All of the personality disorders are composed mostly of abrasive traits 
> that are negative in nature. Maladaptive traits are usually favored over 
> adaptive traits (though there are adaptive traits within all personality 
> disorders) (Kantor, 1992, p. 10). PAPD is a particularly abrasive personality 
> and interpersonal problems are readily identifiable. However, individuals 
> with PAPD do not frequently seek treatment for relationship issues as they 
> consistently blame others for the problems they have. Even if they do come 
> in for treatment for a marital or parent and child problem, they will uniformly 
> demand that the treatment providers "fix" the other person or persons who 
> are at fault for the problems within the relationship. 
> 
> Treatment for individuals with PAPD involves openly exploring the ways they 
> indirectly and unassertively express aggression and neediness toward others 
> by being contrary. Understanding this aggression can allow discovery of 
> the depressive and invalidating experiences underneath -- which lead to 
> a fear of loss of autonomy when others want to be close and a fear of loss 
> of connectedness when others want to be alone (Kubacki & Smith, Retzlaff,
>  ed., 1995, p. 175).
> 
> This author believes that Subject Choate is unlikely to seek treatment individually 
> and should be compelled to seek treatment in whatever fashion is most likely 
> to produce results.
> 
> Study continues...
> Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 15:57:51 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:57:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLNCNPJBIFMFEOAFBKEFPEPAA.feanor@gondolin.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312175726.5925V-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Bryan Strawser wrote:

> I personally am getting tired of seeing them, particularly since I read
> Salon and Slashdot pretty religiously...

Then learn to filter.

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Mar 12 15:03:51 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:03:51 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312165308.5925M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <3AAD279A.AC546509@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <200103122315.SAA10940@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


Jim Choate signed:
____________________________________________________________________
>
>      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
>      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
>      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.
>
>                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved
>
>       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    --------------------------------------------------------------------

To those tracking Jim's signature for future prosecution
I'd like to state that he's a nut and has no control over
what he thinks, writes, posts, declares, corrects, impunes,
mocks, refuses, acts on, reacts stupidly to, misses by a
mile, mischaracterizes scientifically, rats on, and slaughters
with unintended belly laughter. He suffers dementia from 
a windfall due to Tivoli's buyout by mad cow diseased 
IBM. Until that day when Jim got a bunch of money he
didn't deserve, and it was a glorious moment we all
dream of, he was rational and could be approached
with safety. Not any more.

If there's any desire on the part of authorities to setup
a Jim Bell next-in-line, Jim Choate ain't it. He'd never
pass the psychological evaluation -- which come to
think of it, is a pretty damn smart state to be in these
days, so I'm heading up Jim's asshole for protection
from the avenging angels who own his heart and
mind. Remember the chip the feds planted in Jim,
right next to the one put there by IBM -- actually
identical devices for assuring obedience even
while protesting against the powers that power the
chips lucre.




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Mar 12 18:08:05 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:08:05 -0800
Subject: DoJ subpoena guidelines for journalists | Confidential
  source agreements
In-Reply-To: <20010312110114.A14230@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311073942.5925p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
  <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEAJCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
  <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010311073942.5925p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010312180805.00819400@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:01 AM 3/12/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I believe that as a matter of principle, there is no difference between
>what I do in my articles and what John Young does on cryptome.org. Both
>of us *should* be treated by the law as professional journalists.
>
>However, I also recognize that the law will likely not see things that
>way, at least not yet.
>

That's not really the problem ---his site, by now, is well known,
so he can appeal to numbers.  The question is what about the rest 
of us ---who may put up a single-issue site with far fewer visitors? 

Where, and why, do you set the threshold? 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 16:08:56 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:08:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: My .sig
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312180544.5925X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Yes, it's insulting. Hell, it's insulting to me.

But that doesn't change the fact it's a valid comparison, or the two
deductions drawn from it.

If you don't like the face in the mirror you have two choices:

-	Break the mirror

-	Change the face

Precedence: We got away with it yesterday, so we can get away with it
            today.

[1]
    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
      The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]

You are,
What you do,
When it counts.

      The Msao





From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Mar 12 18:12:55 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:12:55 -0800
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
In-Reply-To: <v04220801b6d2c8f00adc@[198.4.94.206]>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010312181255.008e57b0@pop.sprynet.com>



FWIW: even in Kalifornia, you can walk into a store and walk out with a
black powder
revolver, powder, caps, balls and patches.


At 01:58 PM 3/12/01 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> wrote:
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk_politics/newsid_1207000/1207355.stm
>>
>>Some toy guns could be made illegal if the government goes ahead 
>>with its intention to ban replica firearms.
>>
>>Home Office minister Charles Clarke revealed that such a move was 
>>possible when he spoke at an exhibition of seized fake weapons, 
>>which included imitation Uzi machine pistols and an SA-80 assault 
>>rifle.
>>
>>Such replicas can be bought in shops or by mail order and are frequently
used
>>by criminals.
>>
>>The minister said replicas posed a "real threat" to society.
>
>The British can own single and double barrel shotguns, but only if 
>they're licensed and registered and they can only use birdshot.  If 
>you take a look at British gun magazines, you'll see advertisements 
>for really good replica firearms-  They're kind of expensive though.
>
>An unintended consequence to all of this prohibitionist activity, and 
>a not altogether harmful one IMHO, is that the average citizen is 
>losing more and more respect for the government.  And the ultimate 
>unintended consequence is the logical choice between violating the 
>law by owning an illegal fake firearm or by violating the law owning 
>a real one.  Most people will choose owning a real one-
>
>Regards,  Matt-
>
>
>**************************************************************************
>Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
>Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
>on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
>Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
>(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
>**************************************************************************
>
>

 






  







From blankfrank at farc.org  Mon Mar 12 18:30:17 2001
From: blankfrank at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:30:17 -0800
Subject: One source of JC's inferiority complex
Message-ID: <3AAD8638.900851DE@farc.org>


At 05:54 PM 3/12/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>course content, lab design, etc. Not bad for somebody without a degree
>I've always felt.

Plenty of folks sans degrees have a clue, though, Jim...






From feanor at gondolin.org  Mon Mar 12 15:36:24 2001
From: feanor at gondolin.org (Bryan Strawser)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:36:24 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6d2c2cdfe7e@[207.111.241.39]>
Message-ID: <NEBBLNCNPJBIFMFEOAFBKEFPEPAA.feanor@gondolin.org>


I personally am getting tired of seeing them, particularly since I read
Salon and Slashdot pretty religiously...

B


---
Bryan Strawser, feanor at gondolin.org
Personal:	http://www.feanor.gondolin.org
Professional:	http://www.gondolin.org

Introducing Loss Prevention Online - The Portal for Loss Prevention
Professionals
http://www.losspreventiononline.com




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Tim May
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 1:18 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Re: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
>
>
> At 12:46 PM -0500 3/12/01, Sunder wrote:
> >Jim Choate wrote:
> >>
> >>  http://slashdot.org/features/01/03/10/0358220.shtml
> >>
> >
> >And this has what to do with crypto exactly?
> >
>
> Since I filter Choate into my trash folder, I typically don't see his
> dozens of one-liners giving some URL he feels we should all look at.
>
> I do check the contents of my trash folder occasionally. Sometimes to
> retrieve something I accidentally trashed, sometimes to see what junk
> has collected there, sometimes to make sure my filters are not
> filtering something they shouldn't.
>
> It's amazing to see the volume of one-line URL pointers Choate spews.
>
>
> --Tim May
> --
> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
>




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Mar 12 18:37:27 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:37:27 -0800
Subject: My .sig
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC00@exna07.securitydyna
 mics.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010312183727.008f2160@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:45 PM 3/12/01 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
>
>Not many people use fixed width fonts to read mail, so I'll let the

They deserve to die, along with HTML posters.



 






  







From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Mar 12 18:40:31 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:40:31 -0800
Subject: papd.sig
Message-ID: <3AAD889F.CBD82746@lsil.com>


> Out of the half-dozen or so lists I frequent, the 'Cypherpunks' is the
> only list where anyone, and I mean anyone, has said anything about my
> previous sig, privately or on the list.
> 
> I wonder what that says, hmmmmmm......
> 
Is that what all the psychoanalytic babble was about? Hurt feelings? The
.sig is an attitudinal antecedent to the Jefferson quote that Tim used
to use and is not particularly original. I think the analogy is a bit
off too - an analogy that equates the members of the power structure to
those of a feudal system like an organized crime syndicate might better
fit.

Also, note the way that a "logical" discussion of PAPD can be used to
classify anyone who disagrees. Next step after we've identified those
with deflicted vision - get the reporters to write about internet-using
subversives, get a judge to sign the papers, tattoo a number on 'em and
take 'em away for reeducation. Fill lots of pages, make it sound as
logical as you want too, it's still leukocytoid dogdoo.

Longing for the good old days 
  of "concealement grilles"
  and universal ground straps,
Mike




From lvild at usa.net  Mon Mar 12 18:42:50 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 12 Mar 2001 18:42:50 PST
Subject: [Re: Consensus? We don't need no stinkin' consensus...]
Message-ID: <20010313024251.14638.qmail@nw174.netaddress.usa.net>


I support your judgement about "Medicalizing" your opponent's arguments with
the belief of having some practical value.

Eric Cordian <emc at artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
> 
> An anonymous twit writes:
> 
> > Anger expressed by commission is usually justified by laudable motives,
> > e.g. concern for the well-being of the victim. The expression of the
> > anger is dictated by the desire to wound while concealing the intention
> > to wound -- even the existence of the anger. This is not to spare the
> > feelings of the victim but to wound them more effectively. The intent is
> > to provoke counteranger with such subtlety that the victim blames
> > himself and believes his anger is not justified.  That way, people with
> > PAPD can assume the role of innocent victim (Kantor, 1992,
> > pp. 178-180). They may make directly hostile statements because they
> > fail to perceive their own motivating attitude, perceive their hostility
> > too late, or believe that their attitude can be concealed.
> 
> Can't we do without Victimologist prattle on a cryptography and privacy
> list?  Shrinks should be next after all the lawyers are fed to the lions.
> 
> "Medicalizing" your opponent's argument, instead of responding to it, is a
> tactic of police states, religious nuts, controlling relatives, and
> idiots.  
> 
> Which one are you?
> 
> -- 
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 16:43:55 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:43:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Consensus? We don't need no stinkin' consensus...
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBFF@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312182035.5925Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Resentment? I'm not resentful. I'm engulfed in a melange of shock, horror,
and hillarity. The insanity of man against man, and the hoops they'll jump
through to get satisfaction. After all, it's not entertainment but
satisfaction that is what drives mankind.

What consensus might that be? The 'crypto-anarchy' good-old-boy consensus?
The Freidman'esk "making money justifies all wrongs" contingent? The "It's
wrong they regulate any of my actions, but I'm going to regulate yours."?
team. Or perhaps "I'm too damn lazy to start my own node and take the heat
but I'll sure bitch and whine when others don't do as I say" clan?

There is no authority on 'the' list because there are 8 lists that share a
common backbone (by consensus of the operators, not users, I might add).
The only parties who have authority to impose any sort of list behaviour 
regulations are the specific operators of those mail reflectors. We have
several that limit what goes out to their subscribers, I don't believe we
have any that limit what their subscribers may submit. However, that is
clearly within the scope of the current agreement. Start a list and filter
both ends. A 2-way list if you will ;)

I would think that a group so sophisticated as you claim to be, and as
motivated by money would recognize the simple dicta "Money speaks". What
you boys are pissed off 'bout is that it's my money doin' the speakin' and
it ain't what ya expected.

The majority of subscribers don't ever post, they sit there and get the
occassional techie item and sit about laughing their asses off. I'm glad
they find joy and humor in this. It is after all hilarious at times.

Do what you will, start your own list, filter me, start another node, keep
bitching. Whatever. If I have something to say I'm going to say it. I'll
do my best to keep it short and too the point. I don't make any promise it
will be related to any point you might have however.

After all, how serious can you take somebody who is more concerned about
the word 'whore' and 'police' in the same sentence than the fact that the
sentence is even being considered at all? Pull your head out of your ass.
If western civilization is going to tumble down because of my .sig then
it's already dead.

Duh.

On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Jim is unusual in that his resentment is also directed towards the consensus
> position on how people should behave on the list (the closest thing to a 
> 'authority' which exists in cypherpunks).

    ____________________________________________________________________

      Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
      Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores. The people are 
      the 'John'. Democracy is dead.

                                   Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Mar 12 18:45:06 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:45:06 -0800
Subject: Consensus? We don't need no stinkin' consensus...
In-Reply-To: <200103130151.f2D1pqD01669@artifact.psychedelic.net>
References: <200103130048.QAA21318@user1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010312184506.008f8db0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:51 PM 3/12/01 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
>
>Can't we do without Victimologist prattle on a cryptography and privacy
>list?  Shrinks should be next after all the lawyers are fed to the lions.
>
>"Medicalizing" your opponent's argument, instead of responding to it, is a
>tactic of police states, religious nuts, controlling relatives, and
>idiots.  
>
>Which one are you?
>

Do you deny that there are clusters of mental symptoms which seem
empirically to have
organic causes? 

Even syndromes with mere software (talk-talk solvable) causes? 

Don't throw out the baby with the gulag.

dh




 






  







From Ironloomis at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 15:54:50 2001
From: Ironloomis at aol.com (Ironloomis at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:54:50 EST
Subject: remove me from this list 
Message-ID: <4c.11f58643.27debbca@aol.com>


How do I get myself removed from this list?




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Mar 12 16:02:55 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:02:55 -0500
Subject: The Passive-Aggressive (Negativistic) Personality Disorder (P
	APD) Case Study: Jim Choate
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBFF@exna07.securitydynamics.com>




> ----------
> From: 	aluger at hushmail.com[SMTP:aluger at hushmail.com]
	[...]
> The passive-aggressive (negativistic) personality disorder is located in 
> Appendix B: "Criteria Sets and Axes Provided for Further Study" of the
> DSM-
> IV.  Millon (1996, p. 198) proposes a comprehensive concept of a
> negativistic 
> personality.  He asserts that the negativistic personality reflects both 
> this general contrariness and disinclination to do as others wish but also
> 
> presents with a capricious impulsiveness, an irritable moodiness, and an 
> unaccommodating, fault-finding pessimism.
> 
	[...]

> The general criteria of a personality disorder coupled with at least five 
> of the following is sufficient to warrant a diagonsis of
> Passive-Aggressive 
> Personality Disorder: procrastination and delay in completing essential 
> tasks -- particularly those that others seek to have completed;
> unjustified 
> protests that others make unreasonable demands; sulkiness, irritability 
> or argumentativeness when asked to do something that the individual does 
> not want to do; unreasonable criticism or scorn for authority figures;
> deliberately 
> slow or poor work on unwanted tasks; obstruction of the efforts of others 
> even as these individuals fail to do their share of the work; and
> avoidance 
> of obligations by claiming to have forgotten them.
> 
	[......]

> This author believes that Subject Choate is unlikely to seek treatment
> individually 
> and should be compelled to seek treatment in whatever fashion is most
> likely 
> to produce results.
> 
Superb flame. Of course, from the point of view of 'external' viewers, a
great many
of the subscribers on cypherpunks appear to exibit PAPD with respect to
their
attitudes towards government authority. Jim is unusual in that his
resentment is
also directed towards the consensus position on how people should behave on 
the list (the closest thing to a 'authority' which exists in cypherpunks).

Peter Trei
 




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Mar 12 16:02:55 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:02:55 -0500
Subject: The Passive-Aggressive (Negativistic) Personality Disorder
  (P APD) Case Study: Jim Choate
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBFF@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> ----------
> From: 	aluger at hushmail.com[SMTP:aluger at hushmail.com]
	[...]
> The passive-aggressive (negativistic) personality disorder is located in 
> Appendix B: "Criteria Sets and Axes Provided for Further Study" of the
> DSM-
> IV.  Millon (1996, p. 198) proposes a comprehensive concept of a
> negativistic 
> personality.  He asserts that the negativistic personality reflects both 
> this general contrariness and disinclination to do as others wish but also
> 
> presents with a capricious impulsiveness, an irritable moodiness, and an 
> unaccommodating, fault-finding pessimism.
> 
	[...]

> The general criteria of a personality disorder coupled with at least five 
> of the following is sufficient to warrant a diagonsis of
> Passive-Aggressive 
> Personality Disorder: procrastination and delay in completing essential 
> tasks -- particularly those that others seek to have completed;
> unjustified 
> protests that others make unreasonable demands; sulkiness, irritability 
> or argumentativeness when asked to do something that the individual does 
> not want to do; unreasonable criticism or scorn for authority figures;
> deliberately 
> slow or poor work on unwanted tasks; obstruction of the efforts of others 
> even as these individuals fail to do their share of the work; and
> avoidance 
> of obligations by claiming to have forgotten them.
> 
	[......]

> This author believes that Subject Choate is unlikely to seek treatment
> individually 
> and should be compelled to seek treatment in whatever fashion is most
> likely 
> to produce results.
> 
Superb flame. Of course, from the point of view of 'external' viewers, a
great many
of the subscribers on cypherpunks appear to exibit PAPD with respect to
their
attitudes towards government authority. Jim is unusual in that his
resentment is
also directed towards the consensus position on how people should behave on 
the list (the closest thing to a 'authority' which exists in cypherpunks).

Peter Trei




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 17:17:42 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:17:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: An observation about 'cypherpunks'
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312191612.5925e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Out of the half-dozen or so lists I frequent, the 'Cypherpunks' is the
only list where anyone, and I mean anyone, has said anything about my
previous sig, privately or on the list.

I wonder what that says, hmmmmmm......

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Mar 12 19:25:53 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:25:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
In-Reply-To: <000001c0ab69$4bf16180$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103121922120.14757-100000@clueserver.org>


On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

> 
> > Next thing you know, it will be considered assault to hold your finger
> > like a gun and say "bang".  (If it is not already.)
> 
> Try it in Heathrow airport and you will get ten years.

Airports are already a "no humour zone", so that is to be expected...

> > Zero tollerance requires a zero IQ.
> 
> So with Dufus in the Whitehouse zero tollerance in the US will be comming
> soon.

When Bush Sr. was running for office many people voted for Clinton because
"anyone was better".

They were wrong.

History repeated itself in some sort of sick self-referential joke.

I expect that the coming Ashcroft years will make us look back fondly at
the Meese and Reno days.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Mon Mar 12 11:35:25 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (drevil at sidereal.kz)
Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:35:25 -0000
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com> (message from
	Declan McCullagh on Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:26:57 -0800)
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20010312193525.21221.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>


> Such replicas can be bought in shops or by mail order and are frequently used
> by criminals.
> 
> The minister said replicas posed a "real threat" to society. 

I would have thought that they posed a "replica of a real threat" to
society.




From lvild at usa.net  Mon Mar 12 19:40:39 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:40:39 PST
Subject: [Cypherpunk Psychobabble]
Message-ID: <20010313034039.4032.qmail@nwcst291.netaddress.usa.net>


To me, humor constitutes sound proof that you are sane Jim

Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> It isn't that you think that I'm nuts that funny.
> 
> It's that you think you aren't.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>          If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
>          not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From reeza at flex.com  Mon Mar 12 22:28:32 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:28:32 -1000
Subject: remove me from this list 
In-Reply-To: <4c.11f58643.27debbca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312202720.00af5ef0@flex.com>


At 06:54 PM 3/12/01 -0500, Ironloomis at aol.com wrote:
 >How do I get myself removed from this list?

Develop a keen interest in the Jim Bell/Carl Johnson prosecutions,
and begin loud, frequent, public advocacy of Assassination Politics.

Our agents will attend to removing you from the list, shortly.

Reese




From brainteaser at subdimension.com  Mon Mar 12 17:28:45 2001
From: brainteaser at subdimension.com (brainteaser)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:28:45 -0500
Subject: The Private Secretary Of The Most Honorable Sir
Message-ID: <200103130128.UAA12986@www.subdimension.com>


>  I should have known better than to cut & paste straight from a text 
> with
> thorns in it.  That little sig would have better been:
> 
> "Hige sceal the heardra, heorte the cenre, mod sceal the mare, the ure
> maegen lytlath."

Now you know how the Russian spammers feel.
Interesting line, a bit pessimistic though. 

--------------------------------------
FREE ANONYMOUS EMAIL!  Sign up now.
http://www.subdimension.com/freemail




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Mar 12 17:45:44 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:45:44 -0500
Subject: My .sig
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC00@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com]
> Yes, it's insulting. Hell, it's insulting to me.
> 
Since you broached the subject....

The text of the .sig, in either this or the 'classic' version, doesn't
bother me. However, it's too long: The copyright notice is 
redundant since the Berne Convention, and ascii graphics in 
sig files ceased to be cool about the time disco died.

Not many people use fixed width fonts to read mail, so I'll let the
rest of you know that it's a crude representation of an armadillo.
Why Jim would choose this creature as a personal totem is an 
interesting question. The armadillo is best known for it's 
stupidity, often demonstrated on Texas roads: ("hmm... a very 
big thing is bearing down on me at 60 mph. I'll deal  with it by 
rolling into a ball...... SPLUUUP!"
  
They are also the only known non-human carriers of leprosy.

BTW Jim, you ought to read PJ O'Rourke's "Parliment of Whores".
(this suggestion is not made in satire or irony; I honestly think
you'd enjoy it :-)

Peter Trei
(who does not need a .sig but often #includes std-disclaimer.h)
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>       Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
>       Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
>       The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.
> 
>                                    Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Mar 12 17:45:44 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:45:44 -0500
Subject: My .sig
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC00@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com]
> Yes, it's insulting. Hell, it's insulting to me.
> 
Since you broached the subject....

The text of the .sig, in either this or the 'classic' version, doesn't
bother me. However, it's too long: The copyright notice is 
redundant since the Berne Convention, and ascii graphics in 
sig files ceased to be cool about the time disco died.

Not many people use fixed width fonts to read mail, so I'll let the
rest of you know that it's a crude representation of an armadillo.
Why Jim would choose this creature as a personal totem is an 
interesting question. The armadillo is best known for it's 
stupidity, often demonstrated on Texas roads: ("hmm... a very 
big thing is bearing down on me at 60 mph. I'll deal  with it by 
rolling into a ball...... SPLUUUP!"
  
They are also the only known non-human carriers of leprosy.

BTW Jim, you ought to read PJ O'Rourke's "Parliment of Whores".
(this suggestion is not made in satire or irony; I honestly think
you'd enjoy it :-)

Peter Trei
(who does not need a .sig but often #includes std-disclaimer.h)
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>       Legislators and Judges are the pimps of modern American society.
>       Police, lawyers, and reporters are their whores.
>       The people are their 'John's'. Democracy is dead.
> 
>                                    Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 19:14:45 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:14:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: My .sig
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC00@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312211323.5925h-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> The text of the .sig, in either this or the 'classic' version, doesn't
> bother me. However, it's too long: The copyright notice is 
> redundant since the Berne Convention, and ascii graphics in 
> sig files ceased to be cool about the time disco died.

Redundent? I think not. It's critical to catch the three jokes (well
ironies to be technical) buried in there. Think of it as 'humor
compression'...;)

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 19:15:57 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:15:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Consensus? We don't need no stinkin' consensus...
In-Reply-To: <200103130151.f2D1pqD01669@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312211510.5925i-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Eric Cordian wrote:

> "Medicalizing" your opponent's argument, instead of responding to it, is a
> tactic of police states, religious nuts, controlling relatives, and
> idiots.  
> 
> Which one are you?

Shit, there's a diff?

Sometimes I sits and think, and somtimes I just sits. I think I'll sits
and think on that one :)

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From avignon at rambler.ru  Mon Mar 12 10:18:45 2001
From: avignon at rambler.ru (Drew)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:18:45 +0300
Subject: =?koi8-r?B?88TFzMHFzSDpztTF0s7F1CDX2cfPxM7ZzQ==?=
Message-ID: <000a01c0ab20$e444ef40$8b2510c3@--->

Мы не засоряем "море" Интернета
   Стеклянная бутылка, брошенная в море, разложится и исчезнет лишь через тысячу лет. Бумажные салфетки - через три месяца, а спички - через шесть. Окурки сигарет будут плавать в море от года до 5 лет; полиэтиленовые пакеты - от 10 до 20 лет; нейлоновые изделия - от 30 до 40 лет; консервные банки - 500 лет; полистирол - 1000 лет. 
 
   Интернет-супермаркет Авигнон продолжает оставаться на плаву с помощью следующих товаров и услуг:
    a.. эксклюзивная чешская посуда со склада на 40% дешевле - убедитесь сами (имеется фотокаталог); 
    b.. покупка/продажа автомобилей (фотографии внешнего вида, салона моторного отсека); 
    c.. автозапчасти и кузовные детали для автомобилей ВАЗ - цены на 5-10% ниже рыночных; 
    d.. компьютерный подбор красок - изготовим краску с точностью 95-100% (о ремонте будете знать только Вы); 
    e.. отдел TV-SHOP, где Вы найдете Кератин Кринекс - секрет пышных волос эстрадных певцов; 
    f.. шведская косметика Oriflame (представлена в фотокаталоге); 
    g.. отдел Медицина - уже сейчас можно начать задавать любые, интересующие Вас, вопросы на медицинские темы.
   Все перечисленное снабжено возможностью он-лайн заказа, осуществив который Вы получите некоторые скидки, а также сам товар, не выходя из дома.
 
   Благодарим Вас за внимание и просим извинения, если данная информация Вам не пригодилась. Также заверяем Вас, что больше Вы не получите подобной информации от нашей компании, так как эта рассылка носит разовый характер и предназначена для того, чтобы познакомить Вас с сравнительно новым интернет-супермаркетом. 
   Если же Вы заинтересовались нашими товарами и услугами, то можете подписаться на новости нашего сайта в разделе "Горячие новости".
Пожалуйста не топите нас -
                                             с уважением, компания Авигнон.

Тел./Факс: 322-98-71, 322-48-93
E-mail: mail at avignon.ru
URL: www.avignon.ru

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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 19:19:38 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:19:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cypherpunk Psychobabble
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312211906.5925k-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



It isn't that you think that I'm nuts that funny.

It's that you think you aren't.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bear at sonic.net  Mon Mar 12 21:22:10 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:22:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Consensus? We don't need no stinkin' consensus...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010312184506.008f8db0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103122111100.9743-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, David Honig wrote:

>At 05:51 PM 3/12/01 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
>>"Medicalizing" your opponent's argument, instead of responding to it, is a
>>tactic of police states, religious nuts, controlling relatives, and
>>idiots.  
>>
>>Which one are you?
>>
>
>Do you deny that there are clusters of mental symptoms which seem
>empirically to have
>organic causes? 

Sure, such symptoms exist.  Hell, if you define "Normal" narrowly 
enough, ninety-nine percent plus of the population has 'em.  
Including you.

Wouldn't you rather allow a pretty broad definition of normalcy 
rather than start on the thorny issues resulting from allowing 
*ANY* group of people to start making definitions of normalcy 
which, sooner or later, may not include you?

In fact, a lot of traits that are maladaptive on an individual 
level (such as paranoia and being fat) are actually beneficial 
on a larger scale -- a certain number of paranoids will always 
survive the 'unexpected' (to others) betrayals, and a certain 
number of fat people will always survive the next famine.  

Extreme personalities (and physiognomies) are just nature's 
way of keeping the species alive, by pre-adapting a small 
percentage of us to survive the hardships and reverses that 
may challenge the 'normal' population on any given day.

Please don't start in with a line that says "it isn't average 
and therefore it isn't legitimate."  

				Bear




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Mon Mar 12 18:57:08 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:57:08 -0500
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103121243170.14174-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <000001c0ab69$4bf16180$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>



> Next thing you know, it will be considered assault to hold your finger
> like a gun and say "bang".  (If it is not already.)

Try it in Heathrow airport and you will get ten years.

> Zero tollerance requires a zero IQ.

So with Dufus in the Whitehouse zero tollerance in the US will be comming
soon.


	Phill




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Mar 12 22:04:12 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:04:12 -0800
Subject: Consensus? We don't need no stinkin' consensus...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103122111100.9743-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010312184506.008f8db0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010312220412.008ed100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:22 PM 3/12/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>>At 05:51 PM 3/12/01 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
>>>"Medicalizing" your opponent's argument, instead of responding to it, is a
>>>tactic of police states, religious nuts, controlling relatives, and
>>>idiots.  
>>>
>>>Which one are you?
>>>
>>
>>Do you deny that there are clusters of mental symptoms which seem
>>empirically to have
>>organic causes? 
>
>Sure, such symptoms exist.  Hell, if you define "Normal" narrowly 
>enough, ninety-nine percent plus of the population has 'em.  


Absolutely.  Even things which are from the outside dysfunctional should
not be treated if the person doesn't want it treated.  Masochism is legal.

And yes, mental traits vary will a normal curve much like any other
trait.  (A rather un PC observation, but true)

>Including you.

My idiosyncracies are not the issue here, Bear.


>Wouldn't you rather allow a pretty broad definition of normalcy 
>rather than start on the thorny issues resulting from allowing 
>*ANY* group of people to start making definitions of normalcy 
>which, sooner or later, may not include you?

Yep, *whether or not* I feel endangered.

>In fact, a lot of traits that are maladaptive on an individual 
>level (such as paranoia and being fat) are actually beneficial 
>on a larger scale -- a certain number of paranoids will always 
>survive the 'unexpected' (to others) betrayals, and a certain 
>number of fat people will always survive the next famine.  

Whatever.  In any case, I'm asserting only that certain 
(modern-med & layperson) defined syndromes exist.  And that
their identification and treatment is not political witchcraft,
no matter how abused for political witchhunting it may be.
A biological mechanic (ie, doctor) is obligated to use the history
of human experience (ie, clustering of symptoms) in classifying and
treating disease.   If you know how to do better, pray tell.

......

The existence of gulags does not prove the non-existence of real
malfunctions.

......

If you still think me a psychofascist, then let me recommend anything
by Thomas Szasz MD, PhD Prof of Psychiatry NYU(?) and after reading it 
on my recommendation you may chastise me.


 






  







From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 20:13:26 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:13:26 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | UK: Software And Business Methods Not Patentable
Message-ID: <3AAD9E66.F4C720E7@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/13/0043219.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 20:31:15 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:31:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Suggested Reading (Sci-fi)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312222838.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



K-PAX
Bene Brewer
ISBN 0-312-97702-6

Shade's Children
Garth Nix
ISBN 0-06-447196-9

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net  Mon Mar 12 19:57:07 2001
From: ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net (ubik_heisenberg at freedom.net)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:57:07 -0500
Subject: If law is based on precedence
Message-ID: <200103130416.WAA21904@einstein.ssz.com>


On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:52:17 -0800 (PST), Alan Olsen wrote:

>
>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>> Why is the Constitution not the root precedent?
>
>Because that system gott r00ted long ago.
>
>We live in a country that is governed by how prosecutors feel about the
>case, not what the law says.

That's exaclty how Admiralty (military) law works.  It is in the contract that you signed by becoming a U.S. 
citizen that they can do whatever "laws" they want...

In Admiralty (U.C.C. and civil) court, the jury has only an advisory role to the judge, when there is one.

In essence, what counts most is not justice for the subject, but the integrity of the "boat".  The captain is 
the only authority on the boat.

>The game is rigged by the people running it.

No.  It is CONTRACT law, aka Admiralty Law, aka Roman Law, aka U.C.C.

>We don't have a fair legal system any more.

You have, under Anglo-Saxon Common Law (ASCL).  But you MUST claim it otherwise, UCC applies.  

In ASCL, you MUST void the claims against you.  UCC claims it has jurisdiction over you.  You must void 
their claim.

Putting "without prejudice" and "all rights reserved" are sufficient to reserve your rights.  But you must 
know what the "without prejudice" expression means.

The text "The UCC Connection: Free Yourself from Legal Tyranny" by the late Howard Freeman states:

-------------------------
                             Remedy

     The making  of  a  valid  Reservation  of  Rights  preserves
     whatever rights  the person then possesses, and prevents the
     loss of  such rights by application of concepts of waiver or
     estoppel.  (UCC 1-207.7)


     It is important to remember when we go into a court, that we
are in  a commercial,  international jurisdiction.  If we go into
court and  say, "I  DEMAND MY  CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS,"  the judge
will most  likely say,  "You mention  the Constitution again, and
I'll find  you in  contempt of court!"  Then, we don't understand
how he  can do that.  Hasn't he sworn to uphold the Constitution?
The rule  here is:  you cannot be charged under one jurisdiction,
and defend  under another.  For example, if the French government
came to you and asked where you filed your French income tax in a
certain year,  do you  go to  the French  government and  say, "I
demand my  Constitutional Rights?"   No.   The  proper answer is:
THE LAW  DOESN'T APPLY  TO ME  --  I'M NOT A FRENCHMAN.  You must
make your  reservation of  rights under the jurisdiction in which
you are charged  --  not under some other jurisdiction.  So, in a
UCC court,  you must  claim your  reservation of rights under the
UCC 1-207.

     UCC 1-207 goes on to say:


     When a  waivable right  or claim is involved, the failure to
     make a  reservation thereof, causes a loss of the right, and
     bars its assertion at a later date. (UCC 1-207.9)


You have to make your claim known early.  Further, it says:


     The Sufficiency  of the  Reservation   --    Any  expression
     indicating an  intention to  reserve rights,  is sufficient,
     such as "without prejudice".  (UCC 1-207.4)


Whenever you sign any legal paper that deals with Federal Reserve
Notes   --  in any way, shape or manner  --  under your signature
write:  Without Prejudice UCC 1-207.2  This reserves your rights.
You can  show, at  1-207.4, that  you have  sufficiently reserved
your rights.

     It is  very important  to understand  just what  this means.
For example,  one man who used this in regard to a traffic ticket
was asked  by the  judge just  what he  meant by writing "without
prejudice UCC  1-207" on  his statement to the court.  He had not
tried to understand the concepts involved.  He only wanted to use
it to  get out  of the  ticket.   He did  not know what it meant.
When the judge asked him what he meant by signing in that way, he
told the  judge that  he was  not prejudiced  against anyone ....
The judge  knew that  the man  had no  idea what it meant, and he
lost the case.  You must know what it means.
---------------------------------------

This text was recently posted on the Cypherpunks.  If you want a repost, ask me.





________________________________________________________________________
Protect your privacy! - Get Freedom 2.0 at http://www.freedom.net




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Mon Mar 12 22:01:08 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:01:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Unix Linux Association Involvement (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010313000014.5925r-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Pass this baby around!!!!!!!!!!

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:10:19 -0600
From: Deborah Chen <Deborah_M_Chen at mail.utexas.edu>
To: tag at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Unix Linux Association Involvement

To Whom It May Concern:

My name is Deborah Chen and am writing on behalf of the Unix/Linux
Association (ULA) at The University of Texas at Austin.  We are a new
organization that started last semester dedicated to helping students learn
and apply Unix and Linux.  Currently, our goals are as follows:

1.  To help students learn about Unix/Linux and to promote awareness about
these systems
2.  To create a network of online users to aid other Unix/Linux users
3.  To invite corporate speakers to speak about their user of Unix and Linux
within their business
4.  To push for the active use of Unix and Linux around campus

We have had some speaker sessions including Ken Harker, as well as an
Install Fest, which more than 50 students attended.  We are definitely
excited about the new awareness of Unix and Linux.

In order to reach our goals, we are seeking more speakers specialized in
their knowledge of Unix and/or Linux.  Since our group is extremely diverse
in its skills level of Unix and Linux, we are looking for topics that
generate interest and motivation to learn more about Unix and Linux.  We are
seeking a speaker for our last meeting of the semester on April 23rd.  If
convenient, we would deeply appreciate any help and/or suggestions.  Please
let us know if you are interested in being involved with our organization
and possibly sending a speaker next semester of Fall 2001.

As any new organization, we are also seeking sponsorship.  This will help us
pay for publicity items (such as posters, fliers, etc.) as well as
refreshments (such as pizza during meetings since students tend to come to
meetings that provide food).  Sponsorship will also us to hold larger events
that may allow the involvement of more students and spark more interest.

Thank you so much for your time.  If you have any additional questions
regarding our organization, you may contact me at
Deborah_M_Chen at mail.utexas.edu, or our organization president, Walter Hung
at unixlinuxut at aol.com, or take a look at our temporary website,
www.unixlinux.homestead.com.  We look forward to any help you may offer.
Please let us know as well if there is anything we can do for you.

Best regards,

Deborah Chen
Corporate Consultant Officer




From blmoon at tampabay.rr.com  Tue Mar 13 00:54:00 2001
From: blmoon at tampabay.rr.com (BlueMoonNovelties.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 03:54:00 -0500
Subject: looking for a great deal. Look no more
Message-ID: <200103120529.f2C5TG018317@smtp-server1.tampabay.rr.com>


BlueMoonNovelties.com

Please take some time to check out our Novelty store at the above website. The 
store is called "http://www.bluemoonnovelties.com/""http://www.bluemoonnovelties.com"and 
we specialize in

* Pipes & Smoking Access  * Posters 
* Incense                              * Tye Dyed Tapestry 
* Celebrity Clock                 * Posters 
* Party Lights                       * B & W Tapestry 
* Black Lights                      * Lighters 
* Glow Sticks 

We add new things about twice a month and we love to hear from people as to their 
opinion. If you see something you like just email us if you are interested. Keep 
us in mind for Birthdays, Party's and other special occasions. 

Email: Blmoon at tampabay.rr.com

Payment Methods: ( master Card, Visa, Money Orders, Checks & Paypal )
ALL TRANSACTIONS ARE ON A SECURE SERVER
Blue Moon Novelties
P.O. box 5965 
Lakeland FL. 33807




From blmoon at tampabay.rr.com  Tue Mar 13 00:55:00 2001
From: blmoon at tampabay.rr.com (BlueMoonNovelties.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 03:55:00 -0500
Subject: looking for a great deal. Look no more
Message-ID: <200103120529.f2C5TG018324@smtp-server1.tampabay.rr.com>


BlueMoonNovelties.com

Please take some time to check out our Novelty store at the above website. The 
store is called "http://www.bluemoonnovelties.com/""http://www.bluemoonnovelties.com"and 
we specialize in

* Pipes & Smoking Access  * Posters 
* Incense                              * Tye Dyed Tapestry 
* Celebrity Clock                 * Posters 
* Party Lights                       * B & W Tapestry 
* Black Lights                      * Lighters 
* Glow Sticks 

We add new things about twice a month and we love to hear from people as to their 
opinion. If you see something you like just email us if you are interested. Keep 
us in mind for Birthdays, Party's and other special occasions. 

Email: Blmoon at tampabay.rr.com

Payment Methods: ( master Card, Visa, Money Orders, Checks & Paypal )
ALL TRANSACTIONS ARE ON A SECURE SERVER
Blue Moon Novelties
P.O. box 5965 
Lakeland FL. 33807




From Celebrations at newsletter.photopoint.com  Tue Mar 13 01:09:42 2001
From: Celebrations at newsletter.photopoint.com (Celebrations at newsletter.photopoint.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 05:09:42 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Take a tour of Ireland through the lens of a camera
Message-ID: <200103130909.f2D99gt27168@sdev10.photopoint.com>

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Copyright© 1998-2001 by PhotoPoint Corp. All Rights Reserved.
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From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Mar 13 06:54:55 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 06:54:55 -0800
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
In-Reply-To: <3AAE026D.D62B2063@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010313065455.008e7450@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:20 AM 3/13/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>One of the fun things about reading lists like Cypherpunks is that I get
>to see how little most people know about the world outside their own
>backyard.  Every time the gun thing comes up some Americans react
>incredulously to British laws and we get people predicting that gun laws
>over here are about to provoke some sort of libertarian backlash. 

We feel the same about your royals, fascist Orwellian trends,
lack of free speech, your state religion, and your hamster-racing.

Please "do something" about "your culture" asap.

:-)


BTW Ken urban (liberal) Americans are as gun shy as Brits...




 






  







From measl at mfn.org  Tue Mar 13 05:10:09 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:10:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: remove me from this list 
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312202720.00af5ef0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103130709200.12982-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Reese wrote:

> At 06:54 PM 3/12/01 -0500, Ironloomis at aol.com wrote:
>  >How do I get myself removed from this list?
> 
> Develop a keen interest in the Jim Bell/Carl Johnson prosecutions,

Shouldn't this be "persecutions"?

> and begin loud, frequent, public advocacy of Assassination Politics.
> 
> Our agents will attend to removing you from the list, shortly.
> 
> Reese
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 13 05:14:55 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:14:55 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Even More Surveillance Cameras For England
Message-ID: <3AAE1D4F.4F0EE895@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/13/020208.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 13 05:15:52 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:15:52 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | ACLU & EPIC Will Challenge CIPA
Message-ID: <3AAE1D88.5FA67043@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/13/0256226.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 13 05:19:18 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:19:18 -0600
Subject: The Register - Top cop claims EU cyber laws hinder crime-fighting
Message-ID: <3AAE1E56.CA43AF2C@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17545.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From Mistro5678 at gateway.net  Tue Mar 13 04:54:18 2001
From: Mistro5678 at gateway.net (Mistro5678 at gateway.net)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:54:18 EST
Subject: the link doesn't work......
Message-ID: <37.11f1b148.27df727a@gateway.net>


I was trying to check out the link on your "code cracking" page maybe you 
could help me. I was trying to find out if this is a page containing info. on 
how to "crack codes" if it is, or if you have some info for me regarding 
"code cracking" e mail me back and let me know. thanx...




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Mar 13 09:09:35 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:09:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Vox Populi & Governments
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103130709200.12982-100000@greeves.mfn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103130802590.22632-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, J.A. Terranson wrote:


>If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
>should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
>Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
>unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
>the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
>elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
>populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
>This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
>as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.


These tactics are as valid today as they were when Niccolo Machiavelli 
first set them down on paper.  Why should we expect that they will become 
ineffective any time soon? 

I had hoped that the internet would change the dynamics of the vox 
populi, by allowing people unintermediated discussion with one another, 
the space to develop ideas fully and learn that they were not alone in 
holding particular ideas.  I had hoped that the Internet would stop 
the ancient tactic of isolating and ostracizing those who think 
differently, and allow them to create forums of their own and try 
to evolve some kind of interacting functional cultures together that 
incorporated their different ideas, providing a huge set of alternatives 
to the prozac culture.

Somehow, it all seems to have gone to shit.  Advertisers have infiltrated 
every corner of the web, and people who think differently are being 
drowned out almost as effectively there as they are on television.  
Censorship is running rampant, and tolerance is at about the lowest 
ebb it's been in my lifetime.  The "mosaic culture" that the internet 
was supposed to enable keeps having bits of it cut off, and the new 
cultures that people who shared different ideas were once building 
have fallen victim to the same stupid FUD tactics and divisive tactics 
and agents provocateurs and crap that have been used against similar 
groups in meatspace since Machiavelli's time.  Well, to be honest, 
since before that.  He was just writing about established practice.

It is not, evidently, possible to enable public participation without 
giving the majority the tools to engage in a tyranny over the minority.  

Julf was forced to roll over to the scientologists. 

Countless ISP's who've allowed "anonymous" customers to put up web sites 
have been forced to roll over when some LEA put kid porn up on their 
servers. 

Even Freenet is subject to this attack; if it gets too big for the lions 
to be comfortable with, they'll just put a whole bunch of illegal crap 
on it (copyrighted software and kid porn for starters) and then have it 
shut down (by making it illegal to run, monitoring networks for freenet 
packets, etc).  If they make the legal exposure bad enough, they can 
keep the number of people using it so tiny that it's worthless.

I dunno any more.  I used to think that if I could create things that 
made it possible for people to communicate, we would eventually find 
out what Earth's people (as opposed to its governments) wanted -- that 
governments would have to respond to vox populi instead of dictating 
it.  Now, with the crap I've seen in the last year, it just doesn't 
seem worth it.  The Internet Pedophile scare is obviously orchestrated, 
ditto the Internet Terrorist scare.  The nation states are dictating 
vox populi again, instead of the other way around, and the last 
american presidential election was a sick joke.  In the only remaining 
superpower on Earth, We've got a thief as head of state, a crook in 
the DOJ,  and the supreme court is nothing but a bunch of rubberstamp 
conservatives.  Despite all my best efforts, and the best efforts of 
hundreds or even thousands of others, there seems to be no way to 
give the people their own voice any more.  No matter what we do, 
these (untranslatable) are taking it over.

There's a point at which the futility of it becomes overwhelming, 
and I just want to start pitching bombs or something.  A visceral 
emotinal release of the frustration, if nothing else.  And I bet 
that's why terrorism is on the rise; there's less and less of a 
way to work within the bounds, so frustrated people are being 
driven outside them. But if I did that, of course it would be 
just digested into pap for the masses and used as an excuse to 
outlaw everything I believe in.  And I won't allow myself to be 
used in that way if I can possibly help it. So there's going to 
be no bomb-throwing for me, much as I sometimes think I'd enjoy 
it. 

All I ever really wanted was governments based on the will of 
the people.  But it turns out the people have no will and 
the governments can tell them that their will is whatever the 
hell the governments want it to be.


				Bear
			feeling discouraged today.






From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Mar 13 06:35:30 2001
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:35:30 -0500
Subject: DCSB: (One more time!) Steven Levy; How the Crypto Rebels Won
Message-ID: <mailman.377.1576007503.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[The Harvard Club is now "business casual". No more jackets and ties
- -- while it lasts, anyway... --RAH]


          The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                        Presents
         (Again, as we were snowed out in March...)
                       Steven Levy,
                          Author,
             Senior Editor, _Newsweek_ Magazine


                "How the Crypto Rebels Won"

                 Tuesday, April 3rd, 2000
                         12 - 2 PM
              The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                One Federal Street, Boston, MA






How a group of outsiders envisioned a need for wide-spread
cryptography and then took on two daunting missions: providing
unprecedented tools to make this happen, and fighting the government
for the right to distribute the tools.


Steven Levy is a senior editor at Newsweek and author of CRYPTO: HOW
THE CODE REBELS BEAT THE GOVERNMENT, SAVING PRIVACY IN THE DIGITAL
AGE. He is also author of four other books including HACKERS,
ARTIFICIAL LIFE, INSANELY GREAT, and THE UNICORN'S SECRET, and have
contributed to many other publications.


[NOTE: Because of the cancellation of this presentation in March due
to a blizzard, we have rescheduled it to April 3rd. The newly revised
schedule for future DCSB talks is included below, and all
reservations for the snowed-out March meeting will be honored.

The last time a meeting was cancelled for snow was for former NSA
Counsel Stewart Baker's April Fool's day talk a few years ago on
roughly same topic. Of course, as the old John Birch pamphlet used to
howl, "None Dare Call It Conspiracy"... ;-) --RAH]


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held
on Tuesday, April 3rd, 2000, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch
of the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for
lunch is $35.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, A/V hardware
if necessary, and the speakers' lunch. The Harvard Club has relaxed
its dress code, which is now "business casual", meaning no sneakers
or jeans. Fair warning: since we purchase these luncheons in advance,
we will be unable to refund the price of your meal if the Club finds
you in violation of what's left of its dress code.


We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we
*really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of
Boston", by Saturday, March 31st, or you won't be on the list for
lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston
will have to be sent back. If you sent us a check for the cancelled
March meeting, we still have it, and you were bcc'd with an asterisk
(*) next to your name. If you were bcc'd *without* an asterisk, we
have your reservation, but no check. You have time to do that, now...

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The
Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $35.00. Please include your
e-mail address so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements
(we've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for
instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can
work something out.


Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

May 1st  Scott Moskowitz  Watermarking and Bluespike
TBA      Jean Camp        Trust and Digital Commerce


As you can see, :-), we are actively searching for future speakers.
If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, are a
principal in digital commerce, and would like to make a presentation
to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Committee,
care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah at shipwright.com>.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 7.0

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at reservoir.com" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Mar 13 07:57:19 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:57:19 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | "Online Privacy Alliance" Claims Privacy Too Expensive
Message-ID: <3AAE435F.4BCA518F@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/13/157259.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From declan at well.com  Tue Mar 13 10:15:36 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:15:36 -0800
Subject: biochemwmdterror in DC today
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010313101520.00a48370@mail.well.com>



HOUSE SELECT INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE Terrorism Briefing Full committee 
Speaker's Working Group on Terrorism holds briefing on intelligence 
matters. Location: H-405 U.S. Capitol. 12;30 p.m. Contact: 202-225-4121 
http://www.house.gov/select **NEW/CLOSED**




From gbroiles at netbox.com  Tue Mar 13 10:47:34 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:47:34 -0800
Subject: Vox Populi & Governments
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103130802590.22632-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103130709200.12982-100000@greeves.mfn.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010313103051.00a5fdd0@pop.well.com>


At 09:09 AM 3/13/2001 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>Julf was forced to roll over to the scientologists.
>
>Countless ISP's who've allowed "anonymous" customers to put up web sites
>have been forced to roll over when some LEA put kid porn up on their
>servers.

These examples illustrate that perfection eludes us - but they don't mean 
that it's not possible for more people to have more freedom more often, 
especially if they're motivated to seek it. Julf did a lot of good for a 
lot of people before he shut down, so I think penet.fi belongs in the 
history books as a net victory for the forces of freedom.

There are still places where you can buy the medicines and chemicals you 
believe you need to maintain optimum health without getting permission from 
a nanny-doctor-HMO. There are still places where you can buy violence tools 
to protect yourself from people who intend harm to you or your family or 
your property. There are still places where you can buy and sell books and 
talk with others without fear of punishment. There are still places where 
you can worship (or not) as you choose without interference. There are 
still places you can live where your neighbors aren't in a hurry to 
supervise or surveil you or decide where you can hang up your laundry.

No, you can't stand naked in the middle of the Golden Gate Bridge high on 
PCP proselytizing for a child-porn church while waving a full-auto firearm. 
Well, not without interference by others. And most of us don't really want 
that anyway (except when we're told we can't have it). You can still get a 
lot done and have a pretty good life despite the unavailability of perfect 
freedom (or anything else perfect, for that matter.)

And people are building things (like GNU/Linux and the *BSD's and PGP/GPG, 
Freenet, and Mojo Nation -- and remailers, almost 10 years ago now) that do 
incrementally increase the effective available freedom in the world - 
again, they all fall short of perfection, but that's not so bad. We're 
moving closer.


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at netbox.com
"Organized crime is the price we pay for organization." -- Raymond Chandler




From declan at well.com  Tue Mar 13 08:00:22 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:00:22 -0500
Subject: My .sig
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC00@exna07.securitydynamics.com>; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 08:45:44PM -0500
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC00@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <20010313110022.A787@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 08:45:44PM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
> Not many people use fixed width fonts to read mail, so I'll let the
> rest of you know that it's a crude representation of an armadillo.

I do use fixed-width fonts to read email, and never figured this out.

It looks more like a really fat rat to me anyway.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Mar 13 11:00:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:00:35 -0800
Subject: fun with the CIA
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010313110023.00a4abe0@mail.well.com>


Speculation over why aliens would want to observe us:
http://www.foia.ucia.gov/scripts/cgiservlets/NavigatorServlet.pl?docNumber=44116&partNumber=2&method=generateFrameSet&totalNumber=2

CIA reports on Russian police scrambling over UFO sighting:
http://www.foia.ucia.gov/scripts/cgiservlets/NavigatorServlet.pl?docNumber=98713&partNumber=2&method=generateFrameSet&totalNumber=2

CIA report on Barbados sighting:
http://www.foia.ucia.gov/scripts/cgiservlets/NavigatorServlet.pl?docNumber=43362&partNumber=2&method=generateFrameSet&totalNumber=2

CIA summarizes news articles on UFOs in ancient China:
http://www.foia.ucia.gov/scripts/cgiservlets/NavigatorServlet.pl?docNumber=42351&partNumber=1&method=generateFrameSet&totalNumber=4




From declan at well.com  Tue Mar 13 08:02:07 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:02:07 -0500
Subject: the link doesn't work......
In-Reply-To: <37.11f1b148.27df727a@gateway.net>; from Mistro5678@gateway.net on Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 07:54:18AM -0500
References: <37.11f1b148.27df727a@gateway.net>
Message-ID: <20010313110207.B787@cluebot.com>


We would be delighted to help you for our usual consulting fees.

-Declan


On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 07:54:18AM -0500, Mistro5678 at gateway.net wrote:
> I was trying to check out the link on your "code cracking" page maybe you 
> could help me. I was trying to find out if this is a page containing info. on 
> how to "crack codes" if it is, or if you have some info for me regarding 
> "code cracking" e mail me back and let me know. thanx...
> 




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Mar 13 03:20:13 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:20:13 +0000
Subject: Toy gun ban: This is pleasantly insane
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312102620.00a68170@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3AAE026D.D62B2063@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk_politics/newsid_1207000/1207355.stm
> 
> Some toy guns could be made illegal if the government goes ahead with its
> intention to ban replica firearms.
> 
> Home Office minister Charles Clarke revealed that such a move was possible
> when he spoke at an exhibition of seized fake weapons, which included
> imitation Uzi machine pistols and an SA-80 assault rifle.
> 
> Such replicas can be bought in shops or by mail order and are frequently used
> by criminals.
> 
> The minister said replicas posed a "real threat" to society.

One of the fun things about reading lists like Cypherpunks is that I get
to see how little most people know about the world outside their own
backyard.  Every time the gun thing comes up some Americans react
incredulously to British laws and we get people predicting that gun laws
over here are about to provoke some sort of libertarian backlash. 

It's not going to happen. Right or wrong, almost everyone in the UK is
in favour of the complete banning of handguns when they think about them
at all.   In fact almost no-one cares, and of those who do care almost
everyone is in favour of the ban. Hemp smoking will be legalised in the
UK before handguns are.  In fact, to be honest, the legalisation of
heroin is less unlikely than handguns (not that either will happen any
time soon). After all more people in Britain use opiates than use guns. 


The view of British society  that you are getting is probably biased by
the people who post in places like this. We get the US just as wrong of
course. The normal British view of the gun laws in the US  (again,
normal amongst the very few who notice or care what goes on in a foreign
country)  is that the majority of reasonable people are somehow being
held to ransom by a tiny "gun lobby" of crazed right-wing fanatics.
People here seem to expect that you will come to your senses one day and
"do something" about the "gun culture". They are typically surprised to
find apparently normal, sane people defending the sale & ownership of
guns.

Ken Brown




From alan at clueserver.org  Tue Mar 13 12:00:09 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:00:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: My .sig
In-Reply-To: <20010313110022.A787@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103131158070.18233-100000@clueserver.org>


On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 08:45:44PM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
> > Not many people use fixed width fonts to read mail, so I'll let the
> > rest of you know that it's a crude representation of an armadillo.
> 
> I do use fixed-width fonts to read email, and never figured this out.

Most people use fixed width fonts. It is the default for most, if not all,
mail applications.  (Until the so-called power users start mucking with
the settings...)

> It looks more like a really fat rat to me anyway.

I just ignore it.  But them again, I have a pretty large mail spool so I
don't worry about the little bit of added space it takes.  Much better
things to get worked up over.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From reeza at flex.com  Tue Mar 13 14:25:53 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:25:53 -1000
Subject: remove me from this list 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103130709200.12982-100000@greeves.mfn.org>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312202720.00af5ef0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313122440.00d72100@flex.com>


At 07:10 AM 3/13/01 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
 >On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Reese wrote:
 >> At 06:54 PM 3/12/01 -0500, Ironloomis at aol.com wrote:
 >>  >How do I get myself removed from this list?
 >>
 >> Develop a keen interest in the Jim Bell/Carl Johnson prosecutions,
 >
 >Shouldn't this be "persecutions"?

I guess that would depend on perspective.  Rob, Jeff et al. believe
they prosecute, cypherpunks believe they persecute.

 >> and begin loud, frequent, public advocacy of Assassination Politics.
 >>
 >> Our agents will attend to removing you from the list, shortly.

Reese
  




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Mar 13 11:28:04 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:28:04 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Halfway Through The Revolution
Message-ID: <3AAE74C4.40A347A0@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/features/01/03/08/2342221.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Mar 13 11:31:59 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:31:59 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Clay Shirky Explains Internet Evolution
Message-ID: <3AAE75AF.D538D96B@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/interviews/01/03/13/1420210.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Mar 13 12:04:16 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:04:16 -0500
Subject: If law is based on precedence
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312173017.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AAE7D40.EC9C0BCF@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Why is the Constitution not the root precedent?

Clue: this is cypherpunks, not lawyerpunks.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Mar 13 12:08:41 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:08:41 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010312173930.5925S-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AAE7E49.B59EB680@sunder.net>


Nice instigation John, you got him to fold and spill the beans pretty damn
quick. :)  Now you've got plenty of info on him.  The NSA must be very happy
as they can begin the anal probe.  Expect to see him tied to a tree with a
satelite dish (and flames) sticking out of his ass in about a month and he'll
be screaming "Why does everyhing in this conversation have to do with things
going into or coming out of my ass."

I'll rustle up the cows so they can talk to the aliens... :)

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Wow, I got some money? When? From where?
> 
> You really should get your facts straight or your dose adjusted, John.
> 
> I was hired on the week IBM bought Tivoli. I didn't get a penny. Never
> heard of Tivoli until they walked into the local Linux user group I was
> helping run and asked me to come in for a job interview. Biggest network
> I'd ever seen was about 50 machines, now 10,000 is itty bitty. Didn't know
> anything about IBM buying them out, and nobody outside of Tivoli & IBM did
> either (well some lawyers perhaps). I was working at the local Community
> College on a 'Semiconductor Technology' course to train folks for the
> various fab's around Austin. It's only the 4th one to ever get accredited
> by all the major manufacturers. I was the technical lead, responsible for
> course content, lab design, etc. Not bad for somebody without a degree
> I've always felt. Outside of that I ran their books, managed purchasing,
> and did the occassional tutoring across the full electronics course
> schedule. I worked there about 2.5 years. Before that I'd worked for
> Compu-Add, coming on board to do technical support for Desert Storm
> (though we didn't know it at the time) and their Point-of-Sale line.
> 
> As to my technical and troubleshooting skills, I'll let anyone who has
> worked for me or directly with me answer that. Anyone else isn't qualified
> to even have an opinion.
> 
> I would like to also add that I'm glad I don't live in NY. Any state that
> would let somebody like you practice medicine without a license is not
> someplace I want to even visit.


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From stevew at telcom.net  Tue Mar 13 12:42:21 2001
From: stevew at telcom.net (stevew at telcom.net)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:42:21 -0500
Subject: Web Design Request
Message-ID: <200103132042.PAA29104@va1.telcom.net>


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From johndoe2 at mail.anonymizer.com  Tue Mar 13 13:51:45 2001
From: johndoe2 at mail.anonymizer.com (John Doe Number Two)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:51:45 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | 15 Minutes
In-Reply-To: <3AAE7E49.B59EB680@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <B6D3F290.8255%johndoe2@mail.anonymizer.com>


ATTN HEB Shoppers:

The probe will be installed this evening while Jim is bent over inspecting
pork butts in the frozen food section at the Central Market HEB on  38th and
N. Lamar.

I'm sure Jim is looking forward to tonight's 'physical' cypherpunks meeting.

Moo,

JD, II

on 13.03.01 14:08, Sunder at sunder at sunder.net wrote:

> Nice instigation John, you got him to fold and spill the beans pretty damn
> quick. :)  Now you've got plenty of info on him.  The NSA must be very happy
> as they can begin the anal probe.  Expect to see him tied to a tree with a
> satelite dish (and flames) sticking out of his ass in about a month and he'll
> be screaming "Why does everyhing in this conversation have to do with things
> going into or coming out of my ass."
> 
> I'll rustle up the cows so they can talk to the aliens... :)
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
>> 
>> Wow, I got some money? When? From where?
>> 
>> You really should get your facts straight or your dose adjusted, John.
>> 
>> I was hired on the week IBM bought Tivoli. I didn't get a penny. Never
>> heard of Tivoli until they walked into the local Linux user group I was
>> helping run and asked me to come in for a job interview. Biggest network
>> I'd ever seen was about 50 machines, now 10,000 is itty bitty. Didn't know
>> anything about IBM buying them out, and nobody outside of Tivoli & IBM did
>> either (well some lawyers perhaps). I was working at the local Community
>> College on a 'Semiconductor Technology' course to train folks for the
>> various fab's around Austin. It's only the 4th one to ever get accredited
>> by all the major manufacturers. I was the technical lead, responsible for
>> course content, lab design, etc. Not bad for somebody without a degree
>> I've always felt. Outside of that I ran their books, managed purchasing,
>> and did the occassional tutoring across the full electronics course
>> schedule. I worked there about 2.5 years. Before that I'd worked for
>> Compu-Add, coming on board to do technical support for Desert Storm
>> (though we didn't know it at the time) and their Point-of-Sale line.
>> 
>> As to my technical and troubleshooting skills, I'll let anyone who has
>> worked for me or directly with me answer that. Anyone else isn't qualified
>> to even have an opinion.
>> 
>> I would like to also add that I'm glad I don't live in NY. Any state that
>> would let somebody like you practice medicine without a license is not
>> someplace I want to even visit.
> 

"Insert the usual disclaimer here."

Key ID:  0x8EF048F5
4093 Bit DH/DSS
Fingerprint: CC8F 8D2C E1A3 6555 7438  B456 D00E A83C 8EF0 48F5





From bf at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 13 14:04:20 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:04:20 -0600
Subject: AP for SA judges
Message-ID: <3AAE9964.F5FAE06F@mindspring.com>


Mob Hacks Guatemalan Judge to
               Death 

               By Will Weissert
               Associated Press Writer
               Tuesday, March 13, 2001; 3:17 p.m. EST

               GUATEMALA CITY –– More than 1,000 people in a
               northern Guatemalan town attacked a judge after he
               issued an unpopular ruling in a rape case, hacking him to
               death with machetes before setting his body on fire. 

               The crowd was holding three police officers and the
               mayor of Senahu hostage on Tuesday. The town is 155
               miles northeast of the capital, Guatemala City. 

               Judge Hugo Martinez ruled late Monday that there was
               not enough evidence to hold two rape suspects who had
               been handed over to police after being captured by
               hundreds of town residents. 

               Shortly after the ruling, Martinez was attacked by the
               mob as he left the courthouse, said Faustino Sanchez, a
               spokesman for Guatemala's national police force. 

               The judge used a pistol to wound two attackers before
               he was overcome by the mob, which hacked him to
               death with machetes before dousing him with gasoline
               and burning his body, Sanchez said. 

               Other members of the crowd then stormed a nearby city
               building, "seizing the mayor and three police officers
               who were trying to protect the accused men," Sanchez
               said. The fate of the two men was unclear. 

               It was the first mob-justice killing so far this year in
               Guatemala, a country that has seen scores of vigilante
               killings annually in recent years. 

               Police negotiators and a contingent of Guatemalan
               soldiers were en route to Senahu, a highlands town in
               the largely Indian state of Alta Verapaz. 

               Locals in Senahu blocked entrances to the city and
               refused to let police officers, negotiators or reporters
               enter the area, said Edin Arondo, a spokesman for the
               volunteer fire department of the nearby city of Coban. 

               "The situation outside the area is extremely tense,"
               Arondo said in a phone interview. "We can only
               imagine what is going on inside." 

               Since the end of a 36-year-old civil war in which
               200,000 Guatemalans were killed, vigilante violence
               has become common here. Last year mass killings
               claimed 28 victims, and in the two previous years some
               100 Guatemalans died at the hands of angry mobs.




From lvild at usa.net  Tue Mar 13 16:40:17 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 13 Mar 2001 16:40:17 PST
Subject: [Re: If law is based on precedence]
Message-ID: <20010314004017.6554.qmail@nwcst320.netaddress.usa.net>


Just like the legal system,
a cryptosystem holds a key to unravel a
hidden order/disorder.

If you can't read between the lines Sunder,
it reads:
*The Constitution is a false key*


Sunder <sunder at sunder.net> wrote:
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > Why is the Constitution not the root precedent?
> 
> Clue: this is cypherpunks, not lawyerpunks.
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
>  + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
>   \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
> <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
>   /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
>  + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
> --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 13 15:08:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:08:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: DCSB: (One more time!) Steven Levy; How the Crypto Rebels Won (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010313170817.5925x-100000@einstein.ssz.com>

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From eventseries at match.com  Tue Mar 13 15:58:47 2001
From: eventseries at match.com (eventseries at match.com)
Date: 13 Mar 2001 17:58:47 -0600
Subject: Match.com Exclusive Academy Awards Watching Party
Message-ID: <009464758230d31MASSMAIL1@onlymail4.oneandonly.com>


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From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Mar 13 18:08:07 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:08:07 -0800
Subject: Vox Populi & Governments
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103130802590.22632-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103130709200.12982-100000@greeves.mfn.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010313180807.008d6d30@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:09 AM 3/13/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>I had hoped that the internet would change the dynamics of the vox 
>populi, by allowing people unintermediated discussion with one another, 
>the space to develop ideas fully and learn that they were not alone in 
>holding particular ideas.  

 people who think differently are being 
>drowned out almost as effectively there as they are on television.  
>Censorship is running rampant, and tolerance is at about the lowest 
>ebb it's been in my lifetime.  The "mosaic culture" that the internet 
>was supposed to enable keeps having bits of it cut off

Bear, the net is letting people see who / what their neighbors really
are, and really are interested in.  Whenever you mix cultures
you find xenophobia and suppression of the minor cultures.  The internet
is merely stirring things up a little more.

That's my long-term optimistic take on what you write, which I agree with.





 






  







From blankfrank at farc.org  Tue Mar 13 18:14:51 2001
From: blankfrank at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:14:51 -0800
Subject: all we want is to send geese to france
Message-ID: <3AAED41A.8A31427E@farc.org>


>No, you can't stand naked in the middle of the Golden Gate Bridge high
on
>PCP proselytizing for a child-porn church while waving a full-auto
firearm.

Hey, all we want to do is stand in the Golden Gate Park with a joint
and without a bra, while reading SubGenius literature and blowing
bubbles.









From ericwade at flash.net  Tue Mar 13 17:23:36 2001
From: ericwade at flash.net (Eric Wade)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:23:36 -0700
Subject: remove
In-Reply-To: <000001c0ac22$ab829060$e8efb618@sandia1.nm.home.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0ac25$6489e520$e8efb618@sandia1.nm.home.com>


remove




From levitte at openssl.org  Tue Mar 13 09:39:04 2001
From: levitte at openssl.org (Richard Levitte)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:39:04 +0100
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] OpenSSL 0.9.6a Beta 2 released
Message-ID: <20010313183904.A12786@openssl.org>

The second beta release of OpenSSL 0.9.6a is now available from the
OpenSSL FTP site <URL: ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/>.

OpenSSL 0.9.6a is a bug-fix release of version 0.9.6, and currently
contains 43 documented changes.  Among others, this release should build
on all Windows platforms, which 0.9.6 failed to do.  Just as for version
0.9.6, this one comes in two variants, one containing the now well-known
ENGINE code and one that doesn't.  The tar files are:

	openssl-0.9.6a-beta2.tar.gz
	openssl-engine-0.9.6a-beta2.tar.gz

The changes since the first beta are:

	- made ms/32all.bat and ms/16all.bat to work.
	- a few warnings under WIN32 fixed.
	- a missing module in the VMS build system was added.
	- a memory leak in the error data code was plugged.
	- the support for shared libraries changed as in 0.9.7-dev.
	  [N.B.: shared library support is still *EXPERIMENTAL* and not
	  really supported considering the big number of changes that
	  are coming in future versions of OpenSSL]
	- a PKCS#12 key generation bug was fixed.
	- a few typos were corrected.
	- more configuration possibilities for Unixware were added.

If this beta is shown to build and test correctly on all reported platforms,
there will be no need for another beta.  Otherwise, there will be a third
beta.  In any case, that next release is scheduled for Tuesday 2001-03-27.  To
make sure that it will work correctly, please test this version (especially on
less common platforms), and report any problems to <openssl-bugs at openssl.org>.

-- 
Richard Levitte         levitte at openssl.org
OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/
Software Engineer, Celo Communications: http://www.celocom.com/




From info at fotoasia.com  Tue Mar 13 10:56:09 2001
From: info at fotoasia.com (Farah Cowan)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:56:09 -0000
Subject: 30,000 Exclusive Images of Asia
Message-ID: <200103131054.f2DAsMe12410@roam2.singnet.com.sg>



Dear Creative Directors / Designers / Marketers,

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sales at FotoAsia.com

FotoAsia - C a p t u r i n g   T h e   h e a r t   a n d   S o u l   o f   A s i a


Removal
**********
This is an occasional posting to a targeted mailing list.  If you have received this email by mistake, please accept our sincere apologises.  Kindly reply to this email info at FotoAsia.com with "REMOVE" in subject heading and you will not receive any further mailings from us. Thank you.











From YouEarnedTimeOff at *.com  Tue Mar 13 19:55:18 2001
From: YouEarnedTimeOff at *.com (YouEarnedTimeOff at *.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:55:18
Subject: Shopping Relief
Message-ID: <382.892762.280360@.com>

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From Jeff.Gordon at tigta.treas.gov  Tue Mar 13 17:03:11 2001
From: Jeff.Gordon at tigta.treas.gov (Gordon Jeff TIGTA)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:03:11 -0500
Subject: Bell trial schedule
Message-ID: <mailman.378.1576007503.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

I asked Robb about the transcript - he says that per Rule 6 we can't give it
to you.  You would need to file a motion with the US District Court, and the
Judge would have to order them released to you.  Robb thinks that Judge
Pechman was the Judge responsible for your grand jury.  You can get more
court info at http://www.wawd.uscourts.gov/

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: John Young [mailto:jya at pipeline.com]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 7:15 AM
To: Gordon Jeff TIGTA
Subject: Re: Bell trial schedule


Jeff,

Thanks for the information.

Could you find out if I can buy a transcript of my grand jury 
testimony before the trial? Robb London has not answered 
my three inquiries. The court reporters office told me it
can be released only with Robb's approval.

John





From cvv3 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 20:27:05 2001
From: cvv3 at yahoo.com (eric Canton)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:27:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: remove
Message-ID: <20010314042705.79447.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Tue Mar 13 17:48:23 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:48:23 -0500
Subject: M-o-o-t
Message-ID: <e2e76f1b62f20d5d4ee62357b9102546@anonymous>


Bad News for Snoops
By Fiona Ross, Smart Business
March 12, 2001 9:00 PM PT
URL: http://www.zdnet.com/smartbusinessmag/stories/all/0,6605,2688765,00.html


The delicate balance between personal privacy and national security just grew more precarious with the passing of part three of the United Kingdom's RIP law, or Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (see "Losing the Company Keys," February, page 48). Under the new law, the British government can monitor and store all Internet traffic for seven years, as well as demand files and PGP keys from its citizens' computers. 

Enter M-o-o-t (www.m-o-o-t.org), a new open source cryptography project designed to help people get around RIP and similar laws and technologies, including the FBI's controversial snooping system, Carnivore. Peter Fairbrother, Crypto/Oversight Group leader of the U.K.-based organization, says the project spawned from concern about governments spying on citizens. Fairbrother admits that M-o-o-t won't end spying, but he says his group expects to stop "trawling methods and mass surveillance." 

RIP and Carnivore were ostensibly passed to help fight terrorism, espionage, information warfare, and child pornography, so the FBI and Scotland Yard aren't likely to be pleased with M-o-o-t's efforts. Even Fairbrother concedes, "It is inevitable that 'M-o-o-t' will be abused. However, we are more worried about abuse by governments if M-o-o-t isn't written." 

The self-contained software will be shipped on a bootable CD. User data and mail will be encrypted and stored in offshore data havens, bypassing local storage. Untraceable e-mail and telephony are also in the works. 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 13 19:35:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:35:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: remove
In-Reply-To: <000001c0ac25$6489e520$e8efb618@sandia1.nm.home.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010313213537.5925B-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Eric Wade wrote:

> remove
> 




From cassken at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 13 22:34:07 2001
From: cassken at hotmail.com (Ken Pritchard)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:34:07
Subject: WORK from HOME! MINIMUM MONTHLY INCOME
Message-ID: <200103131147.FAA23796@einstein.ssz.com>


CORPORATE DOWNSIZING, LAYOFFS, ECONOMY GOING DOWN 
THE DRAIN!!   
Just a few of the HEADLINES we see daily. HELP IS ON THE WAY!

*********************************************************************
This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, 
http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/
Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word 
"remove" in the subject line.
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http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/
Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word 
"remove" in the subject line.
**********************************************************************




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Mar 13 23:38:54 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:38:54 -0800
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010313233822.00a154c0@idiom.com>


NSA COMPUTER UPGRADE - [The Wall Street Journal, B1.]  What does it take to
send an e-mail to all 38,000 employees at the government's premier computing
center, the supersecret National Security Agency?  "An act of God," says the
agency's director since 1999, Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden.  The NSA, he
discovered to his chagrin last year, has 68 e-mail systems.  He has three
computers on his desk - none of which can communicate with the others.  To
deal with those frustrations, Hayden is now plunging into one of the U.S.
government's biggest information-technology outsourcing deals ever.  More
than 15 companies, including AT&T, Computer Sciences, IBM, General Dynamics
and OAO, have formed three teams to compete for a contract set to be valued
at as much as $5 billion over 10 years.  Requests for proposals went out
last week; the winner will be chosen by July.  Project Groundbreaker, as the
job is called, will be a curious venture by any measure.  The winning
consortium will take over running the NSA's office-technology
infrastructure, including thousands of desktop computers and a Medusa-like
tangle of software and internal communications systems.  Hayden describes
the current setup as "anarchic, convoluted and complex."  It is a holdover
from the days when the NSA, for security reasons, was broken into dozens of
sealed-off compartments.  Each bought its own computers, developed its own
software and built its own networks, intentionally cut off from the rest of
the organization.  Hayden now wants to open the place up, at least
internally.  Whoever wins the Groundbreaker contract will have to meld the
current mess into one seamless network, so that for the first time the
agency can move around top-secret files as any company would, but without
fear of an external security breach.  If Groundbreaker succeeds, industry
experts predict it could set off a wave of other big outsourcing deals
within the federal government.  Likely next candidates include the
departments of Energy and Defense, and even the Central Intelligence Agency.
"This will set the standard for how all similar deals proceed," says Thomas
Robinson, president of CSC's Defense Group, which is leading one team that
also includes General Dynamics and Verizon.  The leaders of the other two
competing consortia are AT&T and OAO.




From seminars at recruitcenter.net  Tue Mar 13 07:40:09 2001
From: seminars at recruitcenter.net (seminars at recruitcenter.net)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:40:09 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Find Passive Candidates with AIRS
Message-ID: <200103131540.AAA27196@nn.iij4u.or.jp>



Hello,

Job posting on the Internet is an important part of recruiting - but by focusing on job seekers and career sites you only reach a fraction of the people on the Net. In fact, less than 10 percent of the Internet audience ever reads job ads and an even smaller percentage will ever post their resume on a job board. And competition for this small basket of job seekers is fierce.

AIRS (Advanced Internet Recruitment Strategies) takes you past the career sites to find millions of passive candidates hidden inside directories, databases and the Web servers of competitors and source companies on the Net. 

***************************** 
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***************************** 
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AIRS SEARCHSTATION is a state-of-the-art passive candidate finder, built on the methodologies developed and refined through research and real-market testing by AIRS. SearchStation automates the manual search processes taught in AIRS seminars to help you find candidate information - resumes, homepages, contact information - in hidden directories and archives all over the Net.

***************************** 
FOR MORE INFORMATION

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Director of Sales
888-999-8844
lmazzilli at recruitcenter.net


AIRS respects your online time and Internet privacy. If you'd prefer not to receive further communications, simply reply to this message with "unsubscribe " in the subject line.




From LesbiansAndTeens at aol.com  Tue Mar 13 21:57:46 2001
From: LesbiansAndTeens at aol.com (LesbiansAndTeens at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:57:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: The hands down BEST *Teen & Lesbian* site on the net
Message-ID: <200103140557.AAA15019352@www1409.sanjose14-verio.com>



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From biotechstox53 at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 14 06:33:43 2001
From: biotechstox53 at earthlink.net (biotechstox53 at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 06:33:43
Subject: FREE Biotech Stock Info!    666
Message-ID: <420.585351.899496@earthlink.net>

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From biotechstox79 at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 14 07:47:32 2001
From: biotechstox79 at earthlink.net (biotechstox79 at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 07:47:32
Subject: FREE Biotech Stock Info!    918
Message-ID: <51.31615.42600@earthlink.net>

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From blankfrank at farc.org  Wed Mar 14 07:53:06 2001
From: blankfrank at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 07:53:06 -0800
Subject: pave the earth
Message-ID: <3AAF93E1.EAD9ADA7@farc.org>


Militant environmental group targets FBI, others

By SAM STANTON
Scripps-McClatchy Western Service
March 13, 2001

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Two weeks after claiming responsibility for its
first arson attack in California, the Earth
Liberation Front has issued a nationwide call for "militant direct
action" against FBI offices and other federal
buildings.

The militant environmental group, which the FBI has called the nation's
most dangerous domestic terror
organization, on Tuesday issued a statement asking its followers to
engage in actions against the federal
government on April 5.

That date coincides with the scheduled pretrial hearing of Frank
Ambrose, who has been charged in
Bloomington, Ind., with tree-spiking and is suspected to be an ELF
member.

Ambrose has denied the charges and his case has become a rallying point
for environmental activists who
believe he is being unfairly targeted by FBI agents anxious to win a
court victory against an alleged ELF
follower.

Sacramento FBI spokesman Nick Rossi said his agency had little to say
about the ELF announcement or FBI
security efforts.

"We evaluate each threat on a case by case basis," Rossi said.

The announcement calls for protests at a time of year when federal
agencies typically are at a heightened state
of alert because of the April 19 anniversaries of the Oklahoma City
federal building bombing and the raid on the
Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.

The call for action on April 5 came through e-mail messages sent to
individuals who have asked to be updated
on ELF activities. The messages are forwarded by a group of activists
based in Portland, Ore., who deny any
membership in the group.

One of the activists, Lesliejames Pickering, said Tuesday that he
believed the latest announcement indicated
there would be demonstrations of "support for radical action."

"Militant means more organized, more strategic," Pickering said. "There
are going to be protests nationwide."

He added that he expected protest sites to include either Sacramento or
San Francisco.

The shadowy organization, which has no official members, says it is a
worldwide group that includes anyone
who takes action to protect the environment without injuring or killing
anyone.

The group claims to have caused at least $37 million in damages to
various timber operations, ski resorts and
other entities ELF members believe have hurt the environment.

In one of its latest efforts, the ELF claims to have set a Feb. 20
pre-dawn fire at a cotton gin near Visalia that
caused $700,000 in damage. The group claimed it targeted the plant
because it contained genetically
engineered cotton seeds.

But officials said there were no such seeds at the gin, and a fire
investigator said Tuesday that officials have not
been able to corroborate the group's claims of setting the blaze.

The ELF claimed to have placed barrels containing a total of 20 gallons
of gasoline and other fuel around the
inside of the plant.

Capt. Mike Davidson of the California Department of Forestry and Fire
Protection said a dog trained to detect
accelerants at arsons was sent inside the cotton gin and found no scent
of the fuel.

"I personally believe that if there were 20 gallons of accelerant inside
the dog would have smelled it and the
firefighters would have smelled it (when they arrived on the scene),"
Davidson said. "I can't eliminate the
possibility that the Earth Liberation Front set the fire; I can say that
they didn't do the fire the way they said they
did."

However, FBI officials have said the group's previous claims of
responsibility for such actions generally have
been accurate. And officials are concerned that the fire in Visalia and
the recent announcements indicate ELF
followers are planning to increase the number and frequency of such
attacks.




From bear at sonic.net  Wed Mar 14 08:33:13 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:33:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010313233822.00a154c0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103140822570.9345-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




This does not sound nearly as much like a "computer upgrade" as 
a "security downgrade".  When you make top-secret files easier to 
move around the network, you make them easier to steal.

No matter what the precautions are, wider access to people within 
the organization means more access for people who want to 
supplement their civil-servant incomes by selling secrets. 
Even if the technology is perfect, the people are a weak 
link and the more of them you put on a list the likelier it 
is that there's a broken link. 

On the other hand, we could see some interesting things if the 
technological solutions to this set of secure communications 
problems is ever made public. It amuses me to think they may 
wind up using off-the-shelf solutions like kerberos and PGP. 

			Bear


On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

>NSA COMPUTER UPGRADE - [The Wall Street Journal, B1.]  What does it take to
>send an e-mail to all 38,000 employees at the government's premier computing
>center, the supersecret National Security Agency?  "An act of God," says the
>agency's director since 1999, Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden.  The NSA, he
>discovered to his chagrin last year, has 68 e-mail systems.  He has three
>computers on his desk - none of which can communicate with the others.  To
>deal with those frustrations, Hayden is now plunging into one of the U.S.
>government's biggest information-technology outsourcing deals ever.  

<clip>




From failsafe6 at excite.com  Wed Mar 14 08:43:32 2001
From: failsafe6 at excite.com (Jason)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:43:32 -0800
Subject: Wholsalers America-Its Time To Make Some Real Money
Message-ID: <200103150538.f2F5cAj16021@lsmls01.we.mediaone.net>



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From biotechstox53 at juno.com  Wed Mar 14 09:06:21 2001
From: biotechstox53 at juno.com (biotechstox53 at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:06:21
Subject: FREE Biotech Stock Info!    464
Message-ID: <135.805786.242855@juno.com>

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From enenkio at webtv.net  Wed Mar 14 11:12:13 2001
From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:12:13 -1000 (HST)
Subject: nenkio.- www.enenkio.org
Message-ID: <17094-3AAFC28D-819@storefull-616.iap.bryant.webtv.net>


- Economic Development -
Background Summary - About Eneen-Kio Atoll
General considerations - Central location
Government Trust Services - Commercial Free-Enterprise Zone
PROPOSED ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMS
Telecommunications
International Spaceport
Transportation
Fisheries
Financial Services
Mineral Exploration
Natural Resource Recovery & Processing
Maritime Services
Citizen Fidelity & Investment
Waste Remediation
Background Summary
The government of the Kingdom of EnenKio was instituted under a
Constitution giving titular duties and recognition as Monarch to His
Majesty, King Murjel Hermios, a native Marshallese Paramount Chief
(Iroijlaplap) who, by right of descendancy, traditional matriarchal
tenure and ancestral heritage, is owner in allodium of the islands at
Eneen-Kio Atoll. As a limited constitutional monarchy, the government
was first formed by the King, who by appointment, established the office
of Minister Plenipotentiary. King Murjel passed away in December 1998;
his brother Remios became Second Monarch of the Kingdom. King Remios'
brother, HRH Lobadreo Hermios, is Crown Prince.
The tiny atoll has a remarkable history of having played a very
significant role in the religious and social life of the Marshallese
natives who first began to inhabit the area as early as 500 BCE. Due to
the isolation and relative obscurity of the flat sand and coral islands,
finding the atoll presented a distinct challenge to native sailors, who
navigated the open sea using small charts of sticks and shells and
simple dugout sailing canoes. Some, reportedly selected for human
sacrifice to native gods, would find the huge sea birds, unaccustomed to
humans, easy prey at Eneen-Kio Atoll. A wing bone could be substituted
for one's own bones, destined to be used as a "needle" in tattooing
ceremonies. The demonstration of bravery in completing the journey was
sufficient to spare their lives. Sailors returning from the atoll would
proudly display proof positive of their success: a small orange (Kio)
flower, unknown to grow elsewhere in Micronesia at the time. This same
delicate flower (Sida fallax), commonly called Ilima, is scattered
throughout the Hawaiian Islands of today and is used in lei-making and
decorative arts. 
Today, the islands of Eneen-Kio Atoll are occupied by the agents and
workers of the federal government of the United States, which unlawfully
seized the property during the colonial expansion era of the
Spanish-American War, circa 1899. Efforts to convey an understanding of
the King's right and title to the land and to promote cooperation
between the leadership of the two nations are continuing.
The precedent for the return of the islands was set by the 1993 U.S.
apology (PL103-150, 107 STAT 1513) for the illegal overthrow of the
Hawaiian Monarchy and by the 1994 return of the island of Kaho'olawe to
Hawaiians are considered paramount to the demands being made in the case
of Eneen-Kio Atoll.
General Considerations
The three islands of Eneen-Kio Atoll are far from any classic image of
tropical paradise. Foliage is scant, the land is low and fresh water is
in short supply. The challenge of setting up and maintaining habitation
and human activity there is lessened somewhat by advances in technology.
The use of alternative and renewable energy and environmental systems
offer several convenient solutions for the reliable power and water
needs of residents.
Centrally located in the North Pacific Ocean, triangulated between
Hawaii, Japan and Australia, albeit remote, the atoll offers a unique
set of circumstances worth special consideration. Aside from the
presence of military-styled infrastructure, water and power station and
a substantially superior airstrip to any in the region, little else is
known to be there as would befit commercial and community development.
Numerous improvements are needed to support the planned activity.
This presentation is intended to conceptually introduce the reader to
potential uses, programs and development opportunities envisioned for
the Kingdom of EnenKio.
Also see: National Liberation Program
Government Trust Services
The foundations of government are supported by the pillars of freedom,
equality and respect for the traditions of past generations of native
Pacific islanders. Application of these ideals guide the design,
selection and implementation of methods and programs to induce a maximum
benefit for and to residents and citizens of Eneen-Kio Atoll, without
regard to where they may actually reside or from what place their roots
derive.
Liberal considerations complimentary to the inherent rights of
individuals are made with respect to citizenship, licenses, ship
registry, personal and professional documentation, trust and financial
services and other areas normally encumbered with restrictive controls
and governmental influence. For that reason, all areas within the
jurisdiction of the EnenKio government are declared to be a
Free-Enterprise Zone.
DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMS
Given that considerations for factors stated above are requisite to
fully understand, appreciate and utilize the opportunities for commerce,
trade, travel, finance and business in and of the Kingdom, the following
are set forth below in capsule form:
Telecommunications
Commercial Broadcasting - A powerful radio wave transmitting facility on
par with "Radio Free Europe" could reach audiences from Alaska to New
Zealand, China to Mexico and provide programming now unavailable.
Voice & Data Links - Satellite and ground relay of communications from
all island groups in the North and South Pacific Ocean. Worldwide
cellular telephone service is planned. It will be dependent upon
spaceport development, efficient and economical satellites in orbit.
Fiber Optic Relay Station - Communication link between Eastern Asia and
Hawaii, which has access to North America, would provide service for
large-bit data transmission through superior fiber optic network, also
expandable to link island groups in the South and West to main trunk
line. 
Spaceport Operations
Satellite Launch Facility - The proposed Spaceport to be located in the
Big Island of Hawaii was to take advantage of geographic considerations
for certain types of launches seems to be terminally stalled over
hazards to and objections of the population. Eneen-Kio Atoll has none of
the issues that are causing seemingly insurmountable problems in Hawaii.
Yet Eneen-Kio Atoll still has the advantage of geographic location,
major airstrip and freedom from the numerous restrictions imposed by
U.S. federal agencies and associated policies.
The importation requirements are still valid, being 2000 miles from the
U.S., and exportation of waste and toxic residue could be eliminated by
local processing facilities, planned regardless of spaceport plans.
Other limitations imposed by native archeological sites, thermal and
wind flow effects, weather and cloud effects from mountains, increases
in moisture from rain and rocky coastline (ocean spray), scientific
observation equipment atop Mauna Kea and need for permits or land
acquisition are essentially eliminated.
Weather Data/Observation - Coupled with the need for timely pre-launch
weather data, observations with atmospheric instrumentation and balloons
will capable of being conducted on a regular basis.
Telemetry Support - Coupled with the need for post-launch telemetry, the
facilities will be available to support space programs of other nations.
Given the establishment of communications links with Hawaii, much of the
support may be supplied from Hawaii.
Toxic/Nuclear Waste Disposal Program - Coupled with the spaceport
operation, permanent disposal and remediation programs for a variety of
products, whether produced locally or outside of Eneen-Kio Atoll, are
needed and contemplated. Several of these processes are proprietary and
beyond the scope of this presentation. 
Transportation
While the air terminal on Wake Island is potential refuge for commercial
Transpacific aircraft on an emergency basis, it is not now open for air
routes and interisland flights. Upon site development and requisites of
other programs, a need for increased services shall be met with
appropriate measures. The present air strip is nearly 2 miles in length.
Fisheries
Geographic position of Eneen-Kio Atoll plays an considerable role in the
development and support of North Pacific fishing fleets. Vessel supply
and repair services, cannery operation, fish processing facilities and
air shipment of fresh catch products to the East or West are to be
developed.
Financial Services & Banking Center
The prevailing political climate in support of individual freedoms,
including rights of privacy and security in personal affairs and lawful
business dealings, shall combine with other factors to create a climate
of expanding commerce and financial independence. In general, services
shall include electronic bank transactions, insurance, precious metals
refinery and depository, central bank and secure trust haven.
Implementation will be augmented by the communications links and
expanding gross national product. 
See also: The Banking Act of 1995. 
Mineral Exploration, Natural Resource Recovery & Processing
Very little with respect to recoverable natural resources is known about
much of the area proximal to Eneen-Kio Atoll. Nearby seamounts and
mineral beds are potentially a vast natural resource awaiting
technologically refined methods of discovery and retrieval. Coring will
be necessary to assess the presence and character of minerals.
Maritime Services
Policies and procedures are in place to promote national security,
encourage domestic and foreign commerce and to ensure safety of vessels
of the Kingdom and other maritime nations of the world.
Ship Enrollment and Maritime Service Documentation - EnenKio will be a
host nation for documentation and enrollment of sailors and their ships.
All enrolled vessels shall be accorded privileges, which may be
unavailable to vessels of highly regulated nations.
Ship Supply and Service Facility - A necessary component for any diverse
maritime industry will be adequate ship services. Primarily designed to
handle vessels of fishing fleets, other transpacific, international and
pleasure craft shall have ready access to the services and facilities at
Eneen-Kio Atoll. 
See also: The Maritime Act of 1995. 
Citizen Fidelity & Investment
Individuals wishing to further the causes and development programs of
the Kingdom by affiliation or involvement may make application for
citizenship and travel documents or for consular representative
assignment. Participation in the government's development programs shall
be considered on a per case basis, but generally will not be
unreasonably denied to persons of sincere intent. Economic and personal
advantages to natural and artificial citizens of EnenKio may be found in
understanding licensing laws, financial and trust services and in
finding freedom from taxation.
Citizenship - Belief in and support of the concepts of individual rights
and freedoms that were the founding precepts of the United States of
America in the latter part of the 18th Century shall be required of any
applicant. The purpose of government shall be to ensure those rights and
freedoms are not violated under the Constitution of EnenKio. MORE on
Citizenship
Travel - Citizens of EnenKio, without regard to ethnic or national
origin, shall have the right to travel freely while outside the
territorial boundaries of EnenKio. Travel documents, including passport,
will be issued and acceptance by other nations will be the goal of
ensuring our citizens of their freedom of movement while in foreign
lands.
Diplomatic Service - Citizens who are willing to promote the programs of
EnenKio and are desirous of consular status while in foreign lands shall
be considered upon application on a per case basis, in accordance with
Foreign Service Corps and Ministry policies.
Investment - Acceptance of support and funds for advancement of
development programs shall give participants priority in obtaining
necessary government affiliation services. Programs of national identity
and international commerce will benefit from dedicated citizen
involvement. A legal defense fund will be instituted to perfect and
assert claims.      
MORE on the Economic Citizenship Program
Waste Remediation
Radioactive waste - Permanent disposal via proprietary methods will
eliminate materials producing ionizing radiation, without substantial
risk of contaminating and polluting of any place on Earth or elsewhere.
Toxic and chemical waste - On site via proprietary methods as above.
 

Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade
Mission
DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall
Islands
http://www.enenkio.org




From lvild at usa.net  Wed Mar 14 10:03:13 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 14 Mar 2001 10:03:13 PST
Subject: [Re: Re: [Re: If law is based on precedence]]
Message-ID: <20010314180313.7618.qmail@nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net>


Perhaps you don't agree with it.
I can't argument positively to sustain the statement,
but neither can you reasonably argue against it.

Clue: This is hypothetical thinking.


Sunder <sunder at sunder.net> wrote:
> 
> LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
> > 
> > Just like the legal system,
> > a cryptosystem holds a key to unravel a
> > hidden order/disorder.
> > 
> > If you can't read between the lines Sunder,
> > it reads:
> > *The Constitution is a false key*
> > 
> 
> Clue: it's off topic.  Sigh, another Perrygram I've had to send...
> 
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
>  + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
>   \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
> <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
>   /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
>  + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
> --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From biotechstox89 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 10:37:54 2001
From: biotechstox89 at yahoo.com (biotechstox89 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:37:54
Subject: FREE Biotech Stock Info!    320
Message-ID: <732.830148.459688@yahoo.com>

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From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Mar 14 07:37:59 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:37:59 -0500
Subject: [Re: If law is based on precedence]
References: <20010314004017.6554.qmail@nwcst320.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <3AAF9057.B52AEF93@sunder.net>


LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
> 
> Just like the legal system,
> a cryptosystem holds a key to unravel a
> hidden order/disorder.
> 
> If you can't read between the lines Sunder,
> it reads:
> *The Constitution is a false key*
> 

Clue: it's off topic.  Sigh, another Perrygram I've had to send...


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Mar 14 09:36:09 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:36:09 -0600
Subject: Mr. Choate, an important message  from Justice Scalia....
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEINCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/mar01/scalia14031301a.asp
Scalia on originalist constitutional philosophy, versus the "living
document" approach, in reference to recent Choate-spawned questions and
threads.

<snip>
But Scalia also insisted that only his approach - interpreting the
Constitution based on the Framers' precise words and the meaning they
intended at the time - can preserve the Constitution's guiding principles.

"The Constitution is not an organism," the justice said, "it is a legal
document." <snip>

<snip>That "living Constitution" approach, Scalia observed, has led to U.S.
Senate hearings in which candidates for federal judge or Supreme Court
justice are grilled about which rights they believe are in the Constitution.
Eventually, voters will choose and demand judges based not on their ability
to interpret the Constitution but on the political positions they hold, he
warned.<snip>

Eventually???? Somebody toss out the link for the Ashcroft hearings....

-Aimee




From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 14 10:17:34 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:17:34 -0500
Subject: Mr. Choate, an important message  from Justice Scalia....
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEINCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>; from
  aimee.farr@pobox.com on Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:36:09AM -0600
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEINCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20010314131734.A4609@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 11:36:09AM -0600, Aimee Farr wrote:
> Eventually, voters will choose and demand judges based not on their ability
> to interpret the Constitution but on the political positions they hold, he
> warned.<snip>
> 
> Eventually???? Somebody toss out the link for the Ashcroft hearings....

But wasn't Scalia -- who made a reasonable point -- talking about the
nomination of judges, not executive branch political appointees?

-Declan




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Mar 14 14:10:39 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:10:39 -0800
Subject: Canada's new child porn laws--implications for ZKS?
Message-ID: <a05010401b6d59a8708d3@[207.111.241.203]>


While few countries are havens for child porn, and no one expected 
Canada to suddenly become one, it is clear from legislation happening 
in Canada that is about to become a very poor place to run an 
anonymity service from.

Check the Reuters headlines, e.g.,  at Yahoo: 
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010314/wr/canada_porn_dc_1.html

--begin excerpt of article--

Wednesday March 14 3:52 PM ET
Canada to Criminalize Surfing for Child Porn

By Randall Palmer

OTTAWA (Reuters) - The Canadian government, apparently breaking new 
ground internationally, introduced a bill on Wednesday to make it a 
crime to surf for child pornography on the Internet, with penalties 
of up to 10 years in jail.

Canadian officials said they were unaware of any other country with 
similar legislation designed to crack down on child porn in an age 
when it is just a mouse-click away.
...
In Canada, as in the United States and many other jurisdictions, 
possession of child pornography downloaded from a computer is a 
crime. But the bill would go further to ban knowingly bringing it up 
on a computer screen.
...
It would create a new criminal offense of transmitting child 
pornography, for example by e-mail, punishable by up to 10 years in 
prison. Exporting it from Canada would also become criminal. 
Importing it is already illegal.

--end excerpt of article--

Anonymity services like ZKS may be able to claim that they are not in 
violation of the new law, or any existing law, because the suspected 
child porn material was never visible to them or anyone in their 
company.

A law holding ISPs or nym services responsible for the contents of 
material flowing through their system would of course be a slam dunk 
against ZKS and other such places. So far, this is not what the new 
Canadian legislation has.

In Britain, the RIP bill which forces encryption keys to be turned 
over is likely to have effects as well.

The Napster case, and others, show us that anonymity/piracy/porn 
services are likely to come under heavy legal assault if their nexus 
of operations is identifiable.

This was foreseeable many years ago and was discussed on this list 
beginning in 1992-3.  Any data haven or black market service with a 
giant target painted on it is, well, a _target_.

I don't know what the current ZKS business model is...haven't 
followed it for a while...but I would expect them to get a lot of 
heat from this and similar laws.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ericm at lne.com  Wed Mar 14 15:09:11 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:09:11 -0800
Subject: Mr. Choate, an important message  from Justice Scalia....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314171430.5925I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
  ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:17:27PM
  -0600
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEINCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
  <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314171430.5925I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010314150911.A15697@slack.lne.com>


On Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 05:17:27PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
> 
> > Senate hearings in which candidates for federal judge or Supreme Court
> > justice are grilled about which rights they believe are in the Constitution.
> > Eventually, voters will choose and demand judges based not on their ability
> > to interpret the Constitution but on the political positions they hold, he
> > warned.<snip>


The mail server of a subscriber to the lne CDR has been rejecting
this thread:

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mailhost.itg.ti.com.:
>>> DATA
<<< 553 Message rejected due to possible virus infection
554 5.0.0 <username at ti.com>... Service unavailable


It hasn't rejected anything from cypherpunks in the past.

The only content common to the three emails that it's rejected
is included above.  I wonder which word/phrase
in there it thinks are the virus?




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar 14 15:10:32 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:10:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Re: If law is based on precedence]
In-Reply-To: <3AAF9057.B52AEF93@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314171011.5925G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Clue: it's off topic.  Sigh, another Perrygram I've had to send...

No it isn't. One of the topics of this list is civil liberties.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Mar 14 15:17:27 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:17:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Mr. Choate, an important message  from Justice Scalia....
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEINCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314171430.5925I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>


On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> Senate hearings in which candidates for federal judge or Supreme Court
> justice are grilled about which rights they believe are in the Constitution.
> Eventually, voters will choose and demand judges based not on their ability
> to interpret the Constitution but on the political positions they hold, he
> warned.<snip>

The Supreme Court isn't supposed to be interpreting the Constitution per
se, they're supposed to be deciding if laws passed by Congress are
constitutional. Two different animals.

Last time I checked Scalia had no problem ignoring ...shall make no law...

He certainly isn't bitching about the IR search violations of the 4th.

I don't believe he was in the opposition to the 'assisted suicide' ruling
which states that there is no right in the Constition in this regards. In
direct contradiction to both the 9th and 10th.

Scalia is a hypocrite.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar 14 15:22:08 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:22:08 -0600
Subject: US Supreme Court; Assisted Suicide
Message-ID: <3AAFFD20.D1213229@ssz.com>

Note the word 'unanimous'...

http://wings.buffalo.edu/faculty/research/bioethics/court.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar 14 15:36:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:36:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Interpreting the Constitution
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314173251.5925J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Per the 10'th: Where in there (ie Section 2 in particular) does it say
that ANY court has the job of determining the meaning of the Constitution?

     ------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Article III.

     Section. 1.
     The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one
     supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may
     from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the
     supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good
     Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services
     a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their
     Continuance in Office.

     Section. 2.
     The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity,
     arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States,
     and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their
     Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public
     Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime
     Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall
     be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--
     between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens
     of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming
     Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or
     the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

     In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and
     Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme
     Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases
     before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate
     Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and
     under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

     The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be
     by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said
     Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within
     any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the
     Congress may by Law have directed.

     Section. 3.
     Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying
     War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid
     and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the
     Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession
     in open Court.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From aluger at hushmail.com  Wed Mar 14 17:58:22 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:58:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
Message-ID: <200103150156.RAA23020@user1.hushmail.com>


At Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:41:27 -0500, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

>The reports of DNA evidence showing that up to 28% of 
>fathers are not the biological fathers of children for whom they
>are legal parents is a reminder that revisionist intelligence is 
>not limited to the spooks as data mining becomes more 
>widely available.

I'd like to see a cite to this.

Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar 14 16:31:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:31:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: What Amiee, Declan, Scalia, and the rest of the fascist/socialist , scum forgot
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314173815.5925K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



     We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more
     perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility,
     provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and
     secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do
     ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of
     America.

The Supreme Court is NOT a representative of the people. Only the people
may decide what the Constitution means. That means there are two and ONLY
two ways to INTERPRET the Constitution,

1.	Congress passes a law they believe is constitutional.

	IF a state or person disagree THEN it goes to the Supreme Court,
	not to decide what the Supreme Court believes the Constitution
	says, but rather to determine if the law as worded and carried
	out is commiserate with the Constitution and the spirit of
	AMERICAN democracy it is intended to embody. 

	Let's take the first one, wording. Let's say a state passes a
	law that says "A person may go to their doctor for aid in
	ending their life. The doctor is under no legal obligation
	to help. However, if the doctor should decide to help then
	no legal ramifications may be taken upon the doctor."

	Clearly, per the 9th and 10th, there is no section of the
	Constitution that can be interpreted to give the federal
	level any authority over individual lifestyle decisions.
	So clearly the question becomes one of states rights versus
	individual rights. The Constitution places NO LIMITS on
	personal rights. Now what if a state passed a law prohbiting
	assisted suicide? These would fall under the prohibited acts of
	the 1st. Is the law prohibitory in nature? If so then it clearly
	violates the 1st, 9th, and 10th and is therefore unconstitutional.
	Would any/every instance of the act itself cause harm without
	consent? For example; murder, rape, theft. If so then it clearly
	is in violation of the 1st. We may not force people to commit acts
	that are against their beliefs. That would be in violation of the	
	1st., sanctioning one particular point of view over all points of
	view. So, what section of the Constitution does the assissted
	suicide question violate? None.

	So, somebody want to explain why the answer to the question,
	"Why is assisted suicide illegal", isn't because a bunch of
	Christian assholes have decided that we all gotta believe in
	their fucking god.

	It is clear that the thesis upon which the Supreme Court is based
	are flawed. One thing that clearly needs to be addressed is how
	to replace them with something that might work better (only time
	will tell). Perhaps instead of odd, it should be even. That would
	at least hold hope for them doing nothing (which is always
	preferable to making an error).

	Now, onward through the fog (I stole that ...)

	Where is that spirit explained? The Declaration of Independance.

     When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one
     people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them
     with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the
     separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of
     Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of
     mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel
     them to the separation.

     We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
     equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
     unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the
     pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments
     are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the
     consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government
     becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People
     to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying
     its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in
     such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their
     Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that
     Governments long established should not be changed for light and
     transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that
     mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable,
     than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are
     accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations,
     pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce
     them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their
     duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for
     their future security.

	(Go read Lincoln's 1st Inaugural Address while this is in your
	mind - Lincoln was scum. He intentionaly started the Civil War.)

	An AMERICAN bends their knee to no man, and asks no man to bend
	theirs. Ultimately that is the challenge we are faced with. An
	American has the right to resist any and all coercion. There
	is as a consequence of these two simple paragraphs no question
	as to the meaning of the 2nd Amendment. There is no question
	as to what 'seperation of church and state' mean. There is no
	question as to who has the ultimate right to decide when and
	how they will die. There is no question that the fantasy of
	'executive privilige' is just that. Etc. etc. etc.

2.	The people amend the constitution.

	The feds don't have shit to say about this one. If 3/4 of the
	states got together tomorrow and voted to nulify the tax
	amendment there would be nothing Congress, POTUS, or the
	Supreme Court could do about it. Just about every federal
	tax agent would be out of a job the next day. They are not given
	the power of review for state initiated amendments. This is why no
	(not one) of the Amendments ever went through that process. In
	every (yes, every one) case the Congress has taken the issue upon
	themselves to forstall any popular action.

	I proposed a long time ago that the best way for people to get
	control of their government back is to begin to organize local
	voting with the express goal of electing officials who will
	submit 'sanctioned amendments' from the body at the state level.
	Then through a national forum each of the state groups would work
	to develop amendments that were agreeable to all (or some large
	percentage). These 'sanctioned amendments' would be identical and
	submitted to state legislatures as nearly concurrent as possible.

Let me quote from one of those founding fathers Scalia is so keen we
follow strictly,

"The earth belongs to the living, not the dead."

                            Thomas Jefferson

They gave us a challenge to live up to, one they had not and could not
have reached, they knew they were only starting the first few steps of a
long(!) winding road.

Are we in the weeds yet?

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Mar 14 15:33:14 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:33:14 -0500
Subject: Interpreting the Constitution
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314173251.5925J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AAFFFBA.556C3E62@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
 
> Per the 10'th: Where in there (ie Section 2 in particular) does it say
> that ANY court has the job of determining the meaning of the Constitution?
> 
>      ------------------------------------------------------------------

Right under your nose:
 
>                                 Article III.
> 
>      Section. 2.
>      The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity,
>      arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States,
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  and  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>      and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their
>      Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public
>      Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime
>      Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall
>      be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--
>      between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens
>      of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming
>      Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or
>      the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Mar 14 15:39:21 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:39:21 -0500
Subject: [Re: If law is based on precedence]
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314171011.5925G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AB00129.8BB33CAF@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > Clue: it's off topic.  Sigh, another Perrygram I've had to send...
> 
> No it isn't. One of the topics of this list is civil liberties.

Show me where it says that in the list charter.

http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/cypherpunks/mailing_list/

Sure says nothing about civil liberties.

Hell, I'll save your lazy ass the trouble: ( *** emphasis mine):

<SNIP>

About cypherpunks

The cypherpunks list is not designed for beginners, although they are welcome.
If you are totally new to crypto, please get and read the crypto FAQ referenced
below. This document is a good introduction, although not short. Crypto is a
subtle field and a good understanding will not come without some study. Please,
as a courtesy to all, do some reading to make sure that your question is not
already frequently asked. 
There are other forums to use on the subject of cryptography. The Usenet group
sci.crypt deals with technical cryptography; cypherpunks deals with technical
details but slants the discussion toward their social implications. The Usenet
group talk.politics.crypto, as is says, is for political theorizing, and
cypherpunks gets its share of that, **** but cypherpunks is all pro-crypto
****; the debates on this list are about how to best get crypto out there. The
Usenet group alt.security.pgp is a pgp-specific group, and questions about pgp
as such are likely better asked there than here. Ditto for alt.security.ripem. 

<SNIP>

Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it.
Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for
themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or other large, faceless
organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence. Cypherpunks know that
people have been creating their own privacy for centuries with whispers,
envelopes, closed doors, and couriers. Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other
people from speaking about their experiences or their opinions. 

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To encrypt is
to indicate the desire for privacy. But to encrypt with weak cryptography is to
indicate not too much desire for privacy. Cypherpunks hope that all people
desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it. 

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography. Cypherpunks wish to learn
about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of it. Cypherpunks
know that cryptographic protocols make social structures. Cypherpunks know how
to attack a system and how to defend it. Cypherpunks know just how hard it is
to make good cryptosystems. 

Cypherpunks love to practice. They love to play with public key cryptography.
They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail forwarding and delivery.
They love to play with DC-nets. They love to play with secure communications of
all kinds. 

Cypherpunks write code. They know that someone has to write code to defend
privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write it. Cypherpunks
publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks may practice and play with
it. Cypherpunks realize that security is not built in a day and are patient
with incremental progress. 

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. Cypherpunks
know that software can't be destroyed. Cypherpunks know that a widely dispersed
system can't be shut down. 

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy. 

<SNIP>


Again, this isn't lawyerpunks.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar 14 16:41:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:41:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Re: If law is based on precedence]
In-Reply-To: <3AB00129.8BB33CAF@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314183138.5925L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Show me where it says that in the list charter.
> 
> http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/cypherpunks/mailing_list/
> 
> Sure says nothing about civil liberties.

Not related to THIS CDR. THAT list died a horrible and lingering death.

Who gives a fuck what's written at that site. When Igor and I set this
list up when the old list was announced dead we decided we'd do what we
wanted and not what 'they' wanted. We also wanted a way so that no other
list operator ever had to worry about what one or more (or n-1 for that
matter) other list operators THOUGHT the right way to run the list was.
As a result we leave it up to individual operators to decide what goes
into and out of their node, but they may not filter traffic they relay
from other nodes in any way. It's worked pretty damn well I'd say.

I don't believe in the concept of 'control', I see it as an extension of
ego and self-absorption. As a result I don't filter the SSZ node ever for
anything, not my job. I intend, and make public my intentions, to focus on
cryptography, civil liberties, and economics (and related topics). I intend 
to promote a critical and questioning culture as a consequence.

Money talks, bullshit walks.

"Sacred Cows"? Let's have a bar-b-que boys!...

For more info see:

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From aluger at hushmail.com  Wed Mar 14 19:06:19 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:06:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
Message-ID: <200103150324.TAA30404@user1.hushmail.com>


At Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:46:24 -0500, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

>Aluger commanded:
>
>>I'd like to see a cite to this.
>
>New York Times, March 11, 2001, page 1:
>
>"According to the American Association of Blood Banks,
>280,000 paternity tests were conducted in 1999, three
>times as many as a decade earliet. And in 28 percent of
>the tests, the man tested was found not to be the father."

A skewed figure, in that the sample is taken from cases in which there is 
already a dispute, not the population at large, as the quote initially suggested. 
 Of course that smaller pool will have a higher incidence of "not dad" findings. 
 They are having the test done because they suspect "not dad" problems. 
 It's like saying that 28% of blood tests showed prostate cancer, without 
disclosing that all of the tested parties asked for the test because they 
couldn't piss a single stream.  Duh.
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Wed Mar 14 17:18:40 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:18:40 -0500
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103140822570.9345-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <HIEAKGFJFMEBPPNLCACMMEPGCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



i don't think they would allow classified/non-classified data to cross the
traditional divisions between siprnet and niprnet (which is one reason
employees have multiple physical computers on their desks.) plus today's
trusted computer systems are designed to control access to data (at granular
levels including network, workstation, individual, application, etc.) on top
of all of that physical and logical stuff, i'm sure information is still
generally compartmentalized anyway.  it simply sounds like a standard non
classified communications (email) capability upgrade.

though i do agree with you that people are probably the number one leak as
you're saying.  in fact all opsec/infosec assessments consider 'insider'
threats the greatest problem to deal with (citibank 1995 is an excellent
example of this.)

phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Ray Dillinger
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 11:33 AM
To: Bill Stewart
Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade





This does not sound nearly as much like a "computer upgrade" as
a "security downgrade".  When you make top-secret files easier to
move around the network, you make them easier to steal.

No matter what the precautions are, wider access to people within
the organization means more access for people who want to
supplement their civil-servant incomes by selling secrets.
Even if the technology is perfect, the people are a weak
link and the more of them you put on a list the likelier it
is that there's a broken link.

On the other hand, we could see some interesting things if the
technological solutions to this set of secure communications
problems is ever made public. It amuses me to think they may
wind up using off-the-shelf solutions like kerberos and PGP.

			Bear


On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

>NSA COMPUTER UPGRADE - [The Wall Street Journal, B1.]  What does it take to
>send an e-mail to all 38,000 employees at the government's premier
computing
>center, the supersecret National Security Agency?  "An act of God," says
the
>agency's director since 1999, Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden.  The NSA, he
>discovered to his chagrin last year, has 68 e-mail systems.  He has three
>computers on his desk - none of which can communicate with the others.  To
>deal with those frustrations, Hayden is now plunging into one of the U.S.
>government's biggest information-technology outsourcing deals ever.

<clip>





From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Mar 14 18:26:37 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:26:37 -0600
Subject: Mr. Choate, an important message  from Justice Scalia....
In-Reply-To: <20010314131734.A4609@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPCEJMCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


> But wasn't Scalia -- who made a reasonable point -- talking about the
> nomination of judges, not executive branch political appointees?
>
> -Declan

Yes. Indeed, it is the province of the Courts to interpret the Constitution
(according to some, not including Mr. Choate), not executive branch
political appointees. The very fact that we ask the executive branch these
questions is pause for thought. I was trying to uncover any pragmatic
distinction between a "political view" versus an opinion on the mechanics of
constitutional interpretation. I raised more questions than I answered.

	-Aimee




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Mar 14 17:41:27 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:41:27 -0500
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <HIEAKGFJFMEBPPNLCACMMEPGCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103140822570.9345-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <200103150152.UAA15226@smtp6.mindspring.com>


It is likely that a principal reason for the new NSA system is
to be able to more efficiently spy on its users, as with intelink,
siprnet and niprnet -- and our own beloved Internet whose
users and hackers know not what is being logged. 

Counterintelligence has become a more important function 
of the intel agencies than intelligence, as with corporations, 
educational institutions and families who face internal attacks.

Exposing threats to kids, church and nation is a hot market.
Counterintelligence in all its forms is riding high as a savior
of the commonweal.

Still there are dark sides to knowing the truth.

The reports of DNA evidence showing that up to 28% of 
fathers are not the biological fathers of children for whom they
are legal parents is a reminder that revisionist intelligence is 
not limited to the spooks as data mining becomes more 
widely available.

And what will come of government as it becomes more
subject to internal attacks due to greater access to snooping
technology and counter-snooping attempts to hold onto
the privilege of knowing what underlings do not?

Deutch thought he knew why it was wise to work at home, 
to avoid the counter-snoops watching him, but the 
counter-snoops knew what he did not -- they work for
themselves not the bosses.

Sys admins may well become the power mongerers of
the future, or is that already the case. Hayden is dreaming
if he thinks he will be able to watch his troops without 
their knowing and counteracting it.

What is worrisome is the prospect of a coup by the 
info hi-technoids, most of who work for the military or 
have contracts with them -- out contracts.

SAIC, BBN, Mitre, RAND, the telecomms, the satcomms,
operators of the thick connections worldwide, coupled
with the wizards at the NSA, NRO, USAF, DIA, and so,
could put on a formidable putsch, while the oversight
committees remain, as ever, three monkied.





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar 14 19:13:38 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:13:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Mr. Choate, an important message  from Justice , Scalia....
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPCEJMCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314210700.5925Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> Yes. Indeed, it is the province of the Courts to interpret the Constitution
> (according to some, not including Mr. Choate),

Where?

It says "...under this Constitution...".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Article III.

     Section. 1.

[SSZ: text deleted]

     Section. 2.
     The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity,
     arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States,
     and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their
     Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public
     Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime
     Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall
     be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--
     between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens
     of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming
     Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or
     the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

[SSZ: Text deleted]

> political appointees. The very fact that we ask the executive branch these
> questions is pause for thought. I was trying to uncover any pragmatic
> distinction between a "political view" versus an opinion on the mechanics of
> constitutional interpretation. I raised more questions than I answered.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Mar 14 19:17:59 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:17:59 -0600
Subject: Choatian Constitutional Principles & Privacy
In-Reply-To: <3AB00129.8BB33CAF@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEJOCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated and
no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported by oath or
affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched and the
persons or things to be seized."

Mr. Choate, where does it say you have the right to private communications?
It doesn't.

Compare: "Citizens are guaranteed inviolability of the person. No one may be
arrested except by a court decision or on the warrant of a procurator.
Citizens are guaranteed inviolability of the home. None may, without lawful
grounds, enter a home against the will of those residing in it. The privacy
of citizens and of their correspondence, telephone conversations and
telegraphic communications is protected by law." [1]

"Again, this isn't lawyerpunks." - Sunder. Questions of constitutional
interpretations are central to constitutional privacy analysis, which was
what I was trying to get at, albeit unsuccessfully.
The question Mr. May posed was more interesting, and of direct relevance.


-Aimee
"It does no good to debate with Choate, however." - Tim May


[1] UGA School of Law
SIBLEY LECTURE 1989
U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia
http://www.lawsch.uga.edu/speeches/scalia.html




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar 14 19:41:57 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:41:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <200103150257.VAA10657@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314213954.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



And of what percentage of the population does this represent?

What are the statistics related to marriage-divorce-remarriage?

What were the economic-social breakdowns?

There are Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.

Worded as is, this is nothing but spin doctor bullshit. Press always get
technical stuff wrong. Always.

On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, John Young wrote:

> Aluger commanded:
> 
> >I'd like to see a cite to this.
> 
> New York Times, March 11, 2001, page 1:
> 
> "According to the American Association of Blood Banks,
> 280,000 paternity tests were conducted in 1999, three
> times as many as a decade earliet. And in 28 percent of
> the tests, the man tested was found not to be the father."

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Mar 14 18:46:24 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:46:24 -0500
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <200103150156.RAA23020@user1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <200103150257.VAA10657@smtp6.mindspring.com>


Aluger commanded:

>I'd like to see a cite to this.

New York Times, March 11, 2001, page 1:

"According to the American Association of Blood Banks,
280,000 paternity tests were conducted in 1999, three
times as many as a decade earliet. And in 28 percent of
the tests, the man tested was found not to be the father."

The article goes on to say that most courts still require
a non-biological-father to support the kids he once
believed were his own. To protect the kids.

This parallels law that favors bosses, property owners,
and high office holders over those they fuck, well maybe
not fuck, but you know what I mean if you are an employee,
non-propertied, no public office to lever ransom.

As a kidless self-unemployed gypsy blueballed uni, 
I got nobody to blame for befucked. Pet python eyes 
the blues.




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Wed Mar 14 18:50:50 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:50:50 -0500
Subject: Green Nuts Target Feebs
Message-ID: <70ea74ba8fd6452554ca9689b25ee10e@anonymous>


Militant environmental group targets FBI, others

By SAM STANTON
Scripps-McClatchy Western Service
March 13, 2001

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Two weeks after claiming responsibility for its first arson attack in California, the Earth Liberation Front has issued a nationwide call for "militant direct action" against FBI offices and other federal buildings.

The militant environmental group, which the FBI has called the nation's most dangerous domestic terror organization, on Tuesday issued a statement asking its followers to engage in actions against the federal government on April 5.

That date coincides with the scheduled pretrial hearing of Frank Ambrose, who has been charged in Bloomington, Ind., with tree-spiking and is suspected to be an ELF member.

Ambrose has denied the charges and his case has become a rallying point for environmental activists who believe he is being unfairly targeted by FBI agents anxious to win a court victory against an alleged ELF follower.

Sacramento FBI spokesman Nick Rossi said his agency had little to say about the ELF announcement or FBI security efforts.

"We evaluate each threat on a case by case basis," Rossi said.

The announcement calls for protests at a time of year when federal agencies typically are at a heightened state of alert because of the April 19 anniversaries of the Oklahoma City federal building bombing and the raid on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.

The call for action on April 5 came through e-mail messages sent to individuals who have asked to be updated on ELF activities. The messages are forwarded by a group of activists based in Portland, Ore., who deny any membership in the group.

One of the activists, Lesliejames Pickering, said Tuesday that he believed the latest announcement indicated there would be demonstrations of "support for radical action."

"Militant means more organized, more strategic," Pickering said. "There are going to be protests nationwide."

He added that he expected protest sites to include either Sacramento or San Francisco.

The shadowy organization, which has no official members, says it is a worldwide group that includes anyone who takes action to protect the environment without injuring or killing anyone.

The group claims to have caused at least $37 million in damages to various timber operations, ski resorts and other entities ELF members believe have hurt the environment.

In one of its latest efforts, the ELF claims to have set a Feb. 20 pre-dawn fire at a cotton gin near Visalia that caused $700,000 in damage. The group claimed it targeted the plant because it contained genetically engineered cotton seeds.

But officials said there were no such seeds at the gin, and a fire investigator said Tuesday that officials have not been able to corroborate the group's claims of setting the blaze.

The ELF claimed to have placed barrels containing a total of 20 gallons of gasoline and other fuel around the inside of the plant.

Capt. Mike Davidson of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection said a dog trained to detect accelerants at arsons was sent inside the cotton gin and found no scent of the fuel.

"I personally believe that if there were 20 gallons of accelerant inside the dog would have smelled it and the firefighters would have smelled it (when they arrived on the scene)," Davidson said. "I can't eliminate the possibility that the Earth Liberation Front set the fire; I can say that they didn't do the fire the way they said they did."

However, FBI officials have said the group's previous claims of responsibility for such actions generally have been accurate. And officials are concerned that the fire in Visalia and the recent announcements indicate ELF followers are planning to increase the number and frequency of such attacks.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Mar 14 20:41:42 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:41:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Choatian Constitutional Principles & Privacy
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEJOCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314223806.5925T-100000@einstein.ssz.com>


On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
> effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated and
> no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported by oath or
> affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched and the
> persons or things to be seized."
> 
> Mr. Choate, where does it say you have the right to private communications?
> It doesn't.

It doesn't have to. I claim the right of 'privacy'

                                Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The federal want to regulate it?

                                 Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
to the people.

Private records, public record. That they are records is sufficient,

                                Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.

My laywer friend here draws a 'false distinction'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Mar 14 20:52:36 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:52:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The 4th Amendment
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314224806.5925V-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



                                Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.

The 4th Amendment does not speak to the quality or type of the target of
the search, but rather to the intent to search. The itemized listing is
not meant to enumerate the items covered but rather to demonstrate the
universal range of protected items. The word 'effects' for example is
sufficiently broad in both definition and intent to cover any distinction
of 'private' or 'public'.

Where does the Constitution say anything about 'public' records? The same
argument can be raised there. Was the intent that nothing should receive
protection under the 4th? Hardly.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From freedom.zzfvx7mqxs at freedom.net  Wed Mar 14 20:15:59 2001
From: freedom.zzfvx7mqxs at freedom.net (freedom.zzfvx7mqxs at freedom.net)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:15:59 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Britian confiscating all firearms from...
Message-ID: <200103150424.f2F4OB407244@ak47.algebra.com>


==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
farmers, fact, as I write, easy to do as all are registered, including
long guns. Those whom have followed my writings know why, and ditto for
Canada, I shall briefly repeat a summation for newcomers.

In the WTO, NAFTA, the FTA and the Auto Pact, it was determined Canada
had a ratio of wealthy, upper middle calss, middle class, lower middle
class to peasant which was out of balance, out peasant, (poor) class'
were much to small in the makeup. The USA is seen to have the correct
balance, from Eastrern Kentucky, Alabama, Mississippi etc including
Tennessee, so there was, is, a program to increase the peasant class
here. In the way is universal health care, UIC, farmers incomes, wages,
the employment rate, many factors. These, one by one, have to go. In the
USA, heath care puts an extra $300 per automobile in the cost of
manufacture, in Canada, it is much lower, almost zero, so the UAW etc.
are in on the agreement to devestate the Auto Pact and medicare here.
I list only one example, there are many. 
As we throw middle class people onto the streets, or into low rate,
third class apartments, they might just revolt as poverty is a new
condition for most Canadians, so the gopvernmant cannot have guns in the
hands of people who would, might, just use them on the powers that be.
Surely thjose who ridiculed me can now look to Britian, and ask "why are
they confiscating legally owned guns from farmers" today. The answer is
obvious, and the government there makes no bones about it. They fear an
armed populace.

I write as a person graduated from the United Nations Macroeconomics
program as it was given to staff officers from United Nations countries.

===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================






From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Wed Mar 14 23:20:27 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:20:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Privatization of Blacklists
Message-ID: <200103150720.f2F7KRX04956@artifact.psychedelic.net>


One of the more fascinating aspects of the Internet is the ability of
small groups of motivated individuals to create the types of privacy
intrusions that used to be the exclusive domain of governments, law
enforcement, and credit bureaus.

Gone are the early days when the Net was solely government, business, and
educational users, and people spouted their opinions on abortion, gun
control, child porn, and drug dealing under their real names, and proudly
signed them with their corporate logos.

On today's Net, saying anything too controversial, that gores the ox of
even a small group of zealots, is enough to get you on a list on someone's
Web site, and letters written trying to terminate your housing,
employment, and social life, by people pretending to be "concerned
citizens."  Such "Virtual Communities" of axe-grinders can form almost
instantaneously, from disparate bored housewives and wannabe vigilantes,
and wield collective power that used to be reserved to the powerful and
well-organized.

Woe be it to him who publicly offends cat-lovers, rabid feminists,
smokers, or Scientologists, and lets his IP be traced.

Indeed, as the Surveilance State approaches, it is apparent that most of
its tentacles are corporate, not government, with citizen units trading
privacy for convenience in droves.

Enter RepCheck, an amusing Internet startup created back in December, and
acting as a clearing house of gossip and other information on private
individuals.

                  http://www.repcheck.com/

RepCheck is a simple idea.  RepCheck is free.  RepCheck is a database of
individuals' reputations, which anyone may add to or access.  Employers,
landlords, prospective business partners, and others, may check the social
and business dealings of anyone through the site, and anyone may leave
information on anyone else when the site is visited.

You must join to access the database, and in doing so, you agree to a
Terms of Service which says that you recognize that RepCheck is merely a
distributor of information provided by Third Parties, and has no
responsibility for any content, and that should you ever have a legal
dispute with the site, you agree to resolve it by binding arbitration.

You are also invited to give RepCheck the email addresses of several dozen
of your closest friends, so they can say nice things about you, and in
order to prevent "Identity Theft", RepCheck wants a working credit card
number and expiration date, which "they promise never to charge to."

(I vaguely remember some porn sites doing this for age verification and
then billing tens of millions of dollars in bogus charges a while ago,
BTW.)

So all you have to do to defend your reputation, is send all your friends
to the site, credit card numbers in hand, and recurse this process with
your friends' friends, your friends' friends' friends, an arbitrary number
of levels deep.

Kind of like Make Money Fast with credit card numbers and Reputation
Capital, instead of email messages and $5. :)

And, like most such pyramid schemes, the lemings pile on in droves.  A
leading computer magazine reports that within 2 weeks of opening its
servers, RepCheck had garnered 25,000 happy users, and presumedly a
working credit card number from each.  (Which they promise never to bill
to, of course.)

The US Government is prohibited from warehousing information on how
individual citizens exercise their First Amendment rights, except as part
of a legitimate criminal investigation.  Credit bureaus only disseminate
to their subscribers, and don't contain unedited comments on what your
neighbors think of you.  Police files are generally not public knowlege
until you are arrested and convicted of something.

There are no such restrictions on how private individuals or companies
accumulate or distribute non-credit information, however.  No requirements
on what can be said.  No procedures for correcting erroneous information.  
No laws that unverifiable information must be removed.  No laws that say
how your landlord or employer can use such information.

Big Brother can certainly use RepCheck too, when looking for individuals
having non-mainstream political or sexual views.  Even individuals the
government would have no legal right to keep files on.  Individuals who
have broken no laws, and don't hang out with people who do.

Is RepCheck the wave of the future, when everyones skeletons in the
closet, as recited by their neighbors and business associates, are no more
than a mouse click away from everyone else on the planet?

Anonymity just became a whole lot more important.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From news at parents-talk.com  Wed Mar 14 22:28:55 2001
From: news at parents-talk.com (news at parents-talk.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:28:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: ParentsTalk: Sweepstakes and Fun!
Message-ID: <200103150628.f2F6St812669@circle1network.com>


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If you have questions or comments, do not reply to this e-mail. Instead, write to mailto:talkback at parents-talk.com.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

 




From statiro at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 17:26:28 2001
From: statiro at yahoo.com (Cristian)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 03:26:28 +0200
Subject: You need to ACT FAST and be the FIRST FEW to Sign Up!
Message-ID: <04a311328010f31MAILSRV3@mail.xnet.ro>



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From repcheck at repcheck.com  Thu Mar 15 05:36:05 2001
From: repcheck at repcheck.com (Repcheck)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 05:36:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Repcheck.com Confirmation Code
Message-ID: <200103151336.FAA25003@repcheck.com>





Thank you for signing up with Repcheck.com.  Your
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Once you login to Repcheck.com, you will be asked for
this confirmation code to continue.  Please enter the
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matters.

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Your Password is: cypherpunk

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From kbrockm at PABJ.netscape.net  Thu Mar 15 06:06:42 2001
From: kbrockm at PABJ.netscape.net (EarnMor)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 06:06:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cypherpunks - Make $2000 a Week
Message-ID: <200103151406.GAA05299@cyberpass.net>


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From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Mar 15 06:38:51 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 06:38:51 -0800
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <200103150257.VAA10657@smtp6.mindspring.com>
References: <200103150156.RAA23020@user1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010315063851.008f5100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:46 PM 3/14/01 -0500, John Young wrote:
>
>The article goes on to say that most courts still require
>a non-biological-father to support the kids he once
>believed were his own. To protect the kids.

The motivation for this is that the legals have decided
that supporting the children is more important than
fairness.  Its that simple; some legals will even admit it.

There are similarly motivated restrictions on how much you can deny your
spouse when you die.

FYI



 






  







From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Mar 15 04:09:35 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:09:35 -0500
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <200103150324.TAA30404@user1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <200103151220.HAA10248@smtp6.mindspring.com>


Men usually got a hangup about paternity, and
many don't want to know the truth, so the 28% is
surely way low, in particular to protect the kids and
the wives and to keep the men in harness. Them's 
the facts of biology and culture and healthy
workplace economies.

Same for being snooped on: most deny it's happening,
or that it's as great as claimed by the paranoids, or so 
what, I got nothing to hide. Still, best to watch and
accuse everybody else, support your LEA.

Same for being on cypherpunks -- a list for trolling and 
snooping and accusing -- and denying the truth of 
these -- if it's anything. Same for the Internet as for your 
kids -- now get to work, sucker, your sweetie's on the 
phone to your best friend breathing help me plonk 
that limp lamer.

This comedy's being logged worldwide, as always,
laughing gas.

Religion is counterintelligence for the disbelievers
at what's staring them in the face grinnning I love 
you daddy.

Never, ever have your blood tested, nor your brain.
Keep your head up where the sun don't go. Read
the papers, call what you see lies, distortions of
your motherless bastardy.







From rpoppa at sprintmail.com  Thu Mar 15 07:41:27 2001
From: rpoppa at sprintmail.com (ELN/05U65)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:41:27 -0800
Subject: tb chips
Message-ID: <004101c0ad66$66caa580$87285140@gte.net>

I,m doing some research on tb chips, found you via search. Pls provide w addresses re chat on new polymer chip potential. I will add to discussion as I gain knowledge on subject and have some personal view on potential.
    RRP
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From bear at sonic.net  Thu Mar 15 07:58:37 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:58:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010315063851.008f5100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103150752470.9844-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, David Honig wrote:

>The motivation for this is that the legals have decided
>that supporting the children is more important than
>fairness.  Its that simple; some legals will even admit it.

"Fairness" is such a slippery word.  Is it fair for a child 
to have no support available?  Remember, it's not because of 
anything the child did. 

I think the criterion here is that the adult is more capable 
of coping with the unfairness than the child, hence in a 
situation where you have to be unfair to one or the other, 
you favor the child's interests over the adult's.

>There are similarly motivated restrictions on how much you can deny your
>spouse when you die.

This one I don't hang with.  Your spouse is presumably an adult, 
and ought to be able to cope with not getting the estate.  

But that certainly doesn't stop it from being a serious shitheel 
type maneuver to leave your spouse in the lurch when you go, and 
since you're dead at that point you don't really have that much 
of a compelling interest in the estate any more...  

But anyway, this has little to do with crypto...

				Bear





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Mar 15 08:42:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:42:01 -0800
Subject: Chicks vote for more subsidies!
Message-ID: <a05010405b6d6a151c6cf@[207.111.241.203]>


At 9:46 PM -0500 3/14/01, John Young wrote:
>Aluger commanded:
>
>>I'd like to see a cite to this.
>
>New York Times, March 11, 2001, page 1:
>
>"According to the American Association of Blood Banks,
>280,000 paternity tests were conducted in 1999, three
>times as many as a decade earliet. And in 28 percent of
>the tests, the man tested was found not to be the father."
>
>The article goes on to say that most courts still require
>a non-biological-father to support the kids he once
>believed were his own. To protect the kids.

And the courts require _biological_ fathers to also support 
children--and the "family."

Sounds like a deal for the chick. Ipso facto proof that their are 
more women voters than men voters.


-Tim May


-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From 10560 at dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu  Thu Mar 15 05:45:45 2001
From: 10560 at dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu (cory ertle)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:45:45 -0500
Subject: firewall
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010315084135.009f3090@dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu>


Hey 	
I want to see if my girl is cheating on me by hacking into her e-mail 
account at school. Now i know enough about here to bypass her pass pretty 
easily but i however don't know the best way to go about getting to her 
account. She uses a network based e-mail account through Eudora 4.3. How do 
I get through their firewall. The school is a small
private catholic high school so their firewall is not teh best out there i 
am sure of that.
						Thanx
							mike




From lvild at usa.net  Thu Mar 15 09:05:14 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 15 Mar 2001 09:05:14 PST
Subject: [RE: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade]
Message-ID: <20010315170514.114.qmail@nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net>


Most likely this is out of context over privacy, security, cryptology.

Having the surrogate father pay the bill is as
absurd as having society pay the bill through taxes.

In that case, why not have the surrogate father
receive an allowance from public taxes to raise the child?

David Honig <honig at sprynet.com> wrote:
> 
> At 09:46 PM 3/14/01 -0500, John Young wrote:
> >
> >The article goes on to say that most courts still require
> >a non-biological-father to support the kids he once
> >believed were his own. To protect the kids.
> 
> The motivation for this is that the legals have decided
> that supporting the children is more important than
> fairness.  Its that simple; some legals will even admit it.
> 
> There are similarly motivated restrictions on how much you can deny your
> spouse when you die.
> 
> FYI
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From toy at toyi.zzn.com  Thu Mar 15 09:19:03 2001
From: toy at toyi.zzn.com (toy at toyi.zzn.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:19:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Email Address Extract Expert from Internet
Message-ID: <200103151719.JAA18917@cyberpass.net>



[ This is  the last email to you. After you receive this mail,
 your email has been remove from our mailing list .  ]    
     
        Recommend Software:
                           Email Spider Easy 
                           -----Targeted Email Address Extract Software.
                                http://www.emailspidereasy.com

      
        Key Features: 
        1 It is very simple and easy to use. 

        2 Search and Spider from a starting url such as web url, search engine,
          message board to extract bulk email addresses. Nearly can spider 
          any  web url, including search engine, newsgroup, message board. 

        3 Integrate with 18 top search engines and directories such as Yahoo,
          Google, Altavista, AOL, MSN, Lycos, Alltheweb, Hotbot, Mamma, 
          Northernlight, Directhit, Go,Iwon. 

        4 Search and Extract speed is very fast. 
          Allow up to 500 threads to search and extract emails  simultaneously.

        5 Simple config some parameters to specify which email address is
           you want and which not.  And which urls not need to search
 
        6 Both Web and Url are extracted.

        For more info,please access url:  http://www.emailspidereasy.com




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar 15 07:40:24 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:40:24 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Crypto
Message-ID: <3AB0E268.982E3E41@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/books/01/03/14/170223.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar 15 07:41:42 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:41:42 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Spammers Face Jail Time
Message-ID: <3AB0E2B6.2BCA148C@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/15/1325251.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From j.j.murray at home.com  Thu Mar 15 06:49:10 2001
From: j.j.murray at home.com (Jason Murray)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:49:10 -0500
Subject: firewall
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010315084135.009f3090@dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu>; from 10560@dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu on Thu, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:45:45AM -0500
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010315084135.009f3090@dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu>
Message-ID: <20010315094910.C27535@pain.mtpi1.on.wave.home.com>


On Thu, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:45:45AM -0500, cory ertle wrote:
> Hey 	
> I want to see if my girl is cheating on me by hacking into her e-mail 
> account at school. Now i know enough about here to bypass her pass pretty 
> easily but i however don't know the best way to go about getting to her 
> account. She uses a network based e-mail account through Eudora 4.3. How do 
> I get through their firewall. The school is a small
> private catholic high school so their firewall is not teh best out there i 
> am sure of that.
> 						Thanx
> 							mike

I have a better idea, why don't you just ask her. If you don't beleive her
then you obviously don't trust her. You then have two options:
1) stay with her for a while to get some action then dump her
2) dump her and look for another girl and get some action

But in either even go away, this is not relevant to this list.




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Mar 15 09:51:41 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:51:41 -0800
Subject: Paternity and "not because of anything the child did"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103150752470.9844-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103150752470.9844-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a05010406b6d6a86670a9@[207.111.241.203]>


At 7:58 AM -0800 3/15/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>>The motivation for this is that the legals have decided
>>that supporting the children is more important than
>>fairness.  Its that simple; some legals will even admit it.
>
>"Fairness" is such a slippery word.  Is it fair for a child
>to have no support available?  Remember, it's not because of
>anything the child did.

The core ideological value of our Western society--and most of the 
rest of the world as well, is that families are the primary care 
providers for their offspring. While there are things like public 
schools (which have their own problems) and publically-funded 
vaccinations, the "Schelling point" for parents, children, and 
society is that those who have children pay for them.

Those who have children must support them and must work out the 
arrangements for supporting them with the biological fathers, the 
biological mothers, the adoptive fathers, the adoptive mothers, the 
surrogate fathers, the surrogate mothers, etc.

It is not the role of neighboring families (or families elsewhere in 
a state) who have their own problems to deal with to support the 
children of others based on some notion that "it's not because of 
anything the child did."

The same rationale could be used to justify society support for every 
child. In fact, some political ideologies have tried this approach.

The argument that my money should be taken from me to support a 
litter of kids that some other family elected to have is not 
persuasive. There are also excellent Coaseian reasons to not shift 
the costs of raising children to others in the society.

As for the "Is it fair for a child to have no support available?," 
there are many good answers to this. For starters, adoption. And 
charity. And orphanages paid for out of charity. Also, long term work 
contracts (indentured servitude).

>
>But anyway, this has little to do with crypto...
>

For the 23rd time, this list is not just about crypto. As the 
"Welcome" message which was just posted, for the 19th time, points 
out, there are academic and other fora which are purely 
crypto-related.

This list was started in 1992 to place more of an emphasis on the 
sociopolitical implications of strong cryptography, including 
remailers, nyms, digital money, laws, new political and economic 
systems, black markets, etc.

The issue of paternity and DNA tests is not directly related, but can 
be loosely related to these issues. As Big Brother demands extensive 
DNA data bases "for the children," note the points of intersection 
with our interests.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 15 06:59:55 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:59:55 -0500
Subject: Paternity tests [was: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade]
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC0B@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> John Young[SMTP:jya at pipeline.com]
> 
> Men usually got a hangup about paternity, and
> many don't want to know the truth, so the 28% is
> surely way low, in particular to protect the kids and
> the wives and to keep the men in harness. Them's 
> the facts of biology and culture and healthy
> workplace economies.
> 
	[...]

> Never, ever have your blood tested, nor your brain.
> Keep your head up where the sun don't go. Read
> the papers, call what you see lies, distortions of
> your motherless bastardy.
> 
The Bard dealt with this issue, as he did so
many others:

 Pedro. You embrace your charge too willingly: I 
thinke this is your daughter.
  Leonato. Her mother hath many times told me so.
  Bened. Were you in doubt that you askt her?
  Leonato. Signior Benedicke, no, for then were you a
childe.
  Pedro. You haue it full Benedicke, we may ghesse by
this, what you are, being a man, truely the Lady fathers
her selfe: be happie Lady, for you are like an honorable
father.
  Ben. If Signior Leonato be her father, she would not 
haue his head on her shoulders for al Messina, as like him
as she is.

- Much Ado About Nothing, Actus primus, Scena prima

... and he here also points out why many men don't 
bother with testing - family resemblence is convincing
enough. I have two daughters. One is the image of my 
sister as a child, and the other looks so much my 
mother did at that age that people mistake childhood 
photos of one for the other.

In the absence of any particular reason for doubt, blood
tests would be a waste of time and money.

Peter Trei







From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 15 06:59:55 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:59:55 -0500
Subject: Paternity tests [was: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade]
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC0B@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> John Young[SMTP:jya at pipeline.com]
> 
> Men usually got a hangup about paternity, and
> many don't want to know the truth, so the 28% is
> surely way low, in particular to protect the kids and
> the wives and to keep the men in harness. Them's 
> the facts of biology and culture and healthy
> workplace economies.
> 
	[...]

> Never, ever have your blood tested, nor your brain.
> Keep your head up where the sun don't go. Read
> the papers, call what you see lies, distortions of
> your motherless bastardy.
> 
The Bard dealt with this issue, as he did so
many others:

 Pedro. You embrace your charge too willingly: I 
thinke this is your daughter.
  Leonato. Her mother hath many times told me so.
  Bened. Were you in doubt that you askt her?
  Leonato. Signior Benedicke, no, for then were you a
childe.
  Pedro. You haue it full Benedicke, we may ghesse by
this, what you are, being a man, truely the Lady fathers
her selfe: be happie Lady, for you are like an honorable
father.
  Ben. If Signior Leonato be her father, she would not 
haue his head on her shoulders for al Messina, as like him
as she is.

- Much Ado About Nothing, Actus primus, Scena prima

... and he here also points out why many men don't 
bother with testing - family resemblence is convincing
enough. I have two daughters. One is the image of my 
sister as a child, and the other looks so much my 
mother did at that age that people mistake childhood 
photos of one for the other.

In the absence of any particular reason for doubt, blood
tests would be a waste of time and money.

Peter Trei




From Friend at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 15 10:00:54 2001
From: Friend at hotmail.com (Friend at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:00:54
Subject: Proven Online Income Method
Message-ID: <20.732228.716693@emailserver1.machine.com>


Hello Friends, I am an IT Manager making $50,000+ a year, 
but I want to show you what I do for fun, which will make me 
an ADDITIONAL $250,000 THIS YEAR ALONE....and it takes only 
a fraction of the time that you and I spend at our regular jobs. 
Basically, I send out as many of these emails as I can, then 
people send me cash in the mail for information that I just 
email back to them. Every day, I walk out to my mailbox 
knowing that there are at least a few hundred dollars
waiting for me. And the best part, IT IS COMPLETELY LEGAL. 
Just read the next few pages and see what you think. 
If you like what you read, great....If you don't, read it again 
because you must have missed something. 

					WildCard

DEAR FRIENDS AND FUTURE MILLIONAIRES: 
AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 

"Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your 
home for an investment of only $25 US Dollars expense one time. 

THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say "Bull", please read the following. 
This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the 
popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently 
devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see 
if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the 
program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely 
NO laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the 
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of 
pocket cost". 

DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS 
PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN 
EVER. 

This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached 
many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to 
see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my 
astonishment, I received a total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming 
in."
 
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. 

PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months 
easily and comfortably, please read the following, 
THEN READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL 
DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! 

INSTRUCTIONS:

===========Order all 5 reports shown on the list below===== 

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING AND 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. 
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail 
problems. When you place your order, make Sure you order each of the 5 reports. You 
will need all 5 reports so that you Can save them on your computer and resell them. 

YOUR TOTAL COST... $ 5 X 5 = $ 25.00. Within a few days you will 
receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save 
them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of 
people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it 
on your desk in case something happens to your computer. 

IMPORTANT: DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, 
or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in each 
step "1 through 6" or you will lose out on majority of your profits. 
Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how
it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you 
alter, it will NOT work!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on 
all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. 
Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try 
to change anything other thanwhat is instructed, because if you do, it will not work 
for you. 
		Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name 
& address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and 
is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down to report # 5. 

3. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down to report # 4. 

4. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down to report # 3. 

5. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down to report # 2. 

6. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

***Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your 
computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if 
you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 
reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which 
includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified 
ads and much more. 

There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
===========================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume 
you and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could 
be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also, many people will send out 
hundreds of thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 
With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. 
Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. 
Out of those 50,000 e-mails, only 0.2% responded with orders. That's 100 people 
responding to and ordering Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each 
for a total of 500,000 e-mails.

The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 
5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send 
out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% 
response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. 

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $ 500,000.00 (half million). 
Your total income in this example is: 1...$ 50 + 2...$ 500 + 3..$ 5,000 + 4... $ 
50,000 + 5... $ 500,000... GRAND TOTAL = $ 555,550.00 

			NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. 

GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE 
RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL 
MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! 

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT 
OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or 
half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are 
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many 
people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE 
places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet will easily get a 
larger response. 

We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 
as you go along. 

For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. 
That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders.
This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, 
will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. 

AVAILABLE REPORTS ========================================= 

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. 

Notes: Always send $ 5 cash (US CURRENCY) for each report. 
Checks NOT accepted. 
Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in atleast 2 sheets of paper. On one 
of those sheets of paper, write the NUMBER & NAME of the Report you are ordering., 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDERSS and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: 


REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide To Advertising For Free On The Net" 

Order Report # 1 from: 

Clay Montgomery
12725 E. 76th Circle N.
Owasso, OK 74055



Report #2: "The Insider's Guide To Sending Bulk E-Mail On The Net" 

Order Report #2 from: 

Rick Dennis 
P.O. Box 93649 
Anchorage, AK 99509-3649



Report # 3: "The Secret To Multilevel Marketing On The Net" 

Order Report # 3 from: 

Christian Ward 
PO Box 212537 
Augusta, GA 30917-2537



Report # 4: "How To Become A Millionaire Utilizing MLM & The Net" 

Order Report # 4 from: 

David Benear 
3415 Town & Country Dr., Apt 6B 
Little Rock, AR 72204



Report # 5: "How To Send 1 Million E-Mails For Free" 

Order Report # 5 from: 

Mike Nichols 
PO Box 270061 
Flower Mound, TX 75027 


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDE $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report # 1 within 2 weeks, continue 
sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after 
that you should receive 100 orders or more for Report # 2. If you did not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more 
orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, Because the system is already working for you, 
and the cash will continue to roll in! 

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you 
are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by 
watching which report people are ordering from you.
 
IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME, SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-
MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is no limit to the income you can 
generate from this business!!! 


FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: 

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest 
of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money 
in the next few weeks and months than you haveever imagined. Follow the program 
EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in anyway. It works exceedingly well as it is 
now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name 
and address in Report # 1 and moved others to # 2...# 5 as instructed 
above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and 
your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the 
more potential customers you will reach. 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to 
become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

 ===================================================== 

This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: 
SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, 
http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/ 

Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email 
may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this 
email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar 15 08:23:49 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:23:49 -0600
Subject: Linux Today - LinuxProgramming: Intel releases beta of Linux Math Kernel 
 Libraries
Message-ID: <3AB0EC95.80E69A03@dev.tivoli.com>


http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-03-15-001-21-NW-HE-SW
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From bf at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 15 08:41:10 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:41:10 -0600
Subject: using tech during a crime
Message-ID: <3AB0F0A6.49015526@mindspring.com>



					If you are caught
                                         using a radio in the commission
of a crime
                                         your charges can be enhanced
with
                                         Federal statutes based on the
                                         Communications Act of 1934 as
amended. 

http://www.gmrsweb.com/gmrsfrswhat.html




From toy at toyi.zzn.com  Thu Mar 15 09:16:23 2001
From: toy at toyi.zzn.com (toy at toyi.zzn.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:16:23 -0600
Subject: Email Address Extract Expert from Internet
Message-ID: <200103151716.f2FHGN430518@ak47.algebra.com>



[ This is  the last email to you. After you receive this mail,
 your email has been remove from our mailing list .  ]    
     
        Recommend Software:
                           Email Spider Easy 
                           -----Targeted Email Address Extract Software.
                                http://www.emailspidereasy.com

      
        Key Features: 
        1 It is very simple and easy to use. 

        2 Search and Spider from a starting url such as web url, search engine,
          message board to extract bulk email addresses. Nearly can spider 
          any  web url, including search engine, newsgroup, message board. 

        3 Integrate with 18 top search engines and directories such as Yahoo,
          Google, Altavista, AOL, MSN, Lycos, Alltheweb, Hotbot, Mamma, 
          Northernlight, Directhit, Go,Iwon. 

        4 Search and Extract speed is very fast. 
          Allow up to 500 threads to search and extract emails  simultaneously.

        5 Simple config some parameters to specify which email address is
           you want and which not.  And which urls not need to search
 
        6 Both Web and Url are extracted.

        For more info,please access url:  http://www.emailspidereasy.com




From bear at sonic.net  Thu Mar 15 11:46:12 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:46:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103151415220.9171-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103151144360.6161-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, John Young wrote:
>
>>"According to the American Association of Blood Banks,
>>280,000 paternity tests were conducted in 1999, three
>>times as many as a decade earliet. And in 28 percent of
>>the tests, the man tested was found not to be the father."
>
>Paternity test subjects are hardly representative of the whole population.
>

I've heard similar figures from the CDC - when they discover 
genetic disease, they often do tests to find out which parent 
it was inherited through - and about the same fraction of the 
time, they find that kids are no relation to their fathers. 

				Bear




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar 15 10:13:27 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:13:27 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | The Net Revolution's Backlash
Message-ID: <3AB10647.CF5D019F@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/features/01/03/11/1855221.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Mar 15 09:15:02 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:15:02 -0500
Subject: [RE: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade]
In-Reply-To: <20010315170514.114.qmail@nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <200103151726.MAA09669@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


Listen, I for one never post off topic on this list, and
the paternity testing was cited as an example of
how advanced technology produces wonderful
effects not intended, perhaps, perhaps, by its
inventors.

And that came from my profound insight about
why DIRNSA Hayden wanted a unified e-mail
system, not only for communication as he avows,
but to more efficiently snoop on the system's users.
The reason most corrupt corporations buy new
stuff, new consultants, new outsourcing, to intimidate 
their restless herds.

DNA testing is promoted as a way to catch criminals
and clear the innocent, but is also being used for
other purposes which may lead to unexpected
social upheavals such as paternity verification.

Now, does snooping by higher officials on underlings
also offer unexpected social upheavals? This perfect
genius says yea, yea, hurray. Reverse panopticon
is the name of this evolutionary feature. Watching the
watchers, or at least goading them to think they are
being watched, i.e., Assassination Eye of God.

Counterintelligence was invented by high officials
of spooky religion to persuade sinners that sin does not
go unobserved and unpunished, unless you pay
tithe to the supreme bandits.

James Jesus Angleton was not middle-named that for
naught.





From dakin at nationalpost.com  Thu Mar 15 09:47:15 2001
From: dakin at nationalpost.com (David Akin)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:47:15 -0500
Subject: Canada's new child porn laws--implications for ZKS?
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b6d59a8708d3@[207.111.241.203]>
Message-ID: <NEBBKOODCMLJIAIIKLPGAEGIEKAC.dakin@nationalpost.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net]On Behalf Of Tim May
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 5:11 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Canada's new child porn laws--implications for ZKS?

> I don't know what the current ZKS business model is...haven't
> followed it for a while...but I would expect them to get a lot of
> heat from this and similar laws.

FYI ...
Software firm raises US$22M
Zero-Knowledge Systems Inc. of Montreal said yesterday it raised
US$22-million but will lay off up to one-quarter of its staff as it
reorganizes its business.
http://www.nationalpost.com/financialpost/story.html?f=/stories/20010315/500
233.html

David Akin / Senior technology reporter
National Post / http://www.nationalpost.com
300-1450 Don Mills Road, Don Mills, Ontario
CANADA / M3B 3R5
VOX: 416.383.2372 FAX: 416.383.2443
dakin at nationalpost.com / AIM: DavidAkin

Click to add my contact info to your organizer:
http://my.infotriever.com/DavidAkin




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar 15 10:50:03 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:50:03 -0600
Subject: Sample Rights.com Quotations
Message-ID: <3AB10EDB.C6BEAB13@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.rights.com/sample.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From bear at sonic.net  Thu Mar 15 13:28:47 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:28:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Paternity issues
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103151144360.6161-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103151326260.12426-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

>
>I've heard similar figures from the CDC - when they discover 
>genetic disease, they often do tests to find out which parent 
>it was inherited through - and about the same fraction of the 
>time, they find that kids are no relation to their fathers. 
>

Here's another tidbit ... this time on a page that deals with 
genetic testing.  Their estimates for general population seem 
to be in the 10% range. 

at http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ctf706.htm:
   ... In about a
   third of the welfare cases and 10% of other
   cases, lab directors say that the father named by
   the mother turns out not to be the biological
   parent....

			Bear





From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Mar 15 10:36:25 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:36:25 -0500
Subject: [Jim Choate]
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314183138.5925L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AB10BA9.DFD9C005@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
 
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > Show me where it says that in the list charter.
> >
> > http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/cypherpunks/mailing_list/
> >
> > Sure says nothing about civil liberties.
> 
> Not related to THIS CDR. THAT list died a horrible and lingering death.

Oh, but it is.  Those were the original papers, the original Cypherpunk
Constitution if you will, (even if you won't) that started this mailing
list.

The demise of the toad.com address was not the end of the cypherpunks
list.  It was the reason to build a distributed list.  That there are
many server nodes in the "mailing list" does not change it's reason
for existance, nor it's fouding beliefs.

Recall that what had happened was that a hard censorship system was
set up where Sandy Sandford (if memory does not fail), served as a
filter between an uncensored list and a censored list.

This was done because of a certain pest named Vulis, who much like you
was spamming the list with his noise.

The fatal pill was simply a message that Sandy could not forward to
either list as it would have jeopardized his job.  At that point, Sandy
had to step down as he could not complete his role as filter.

Around that time Tim, also had left the @toad.com list in disgust.

Several others wisely decided to go off and build a distributed node
system so as to prevent attacks against the list by El Federale and
his cousins, and to get around the censorship.  Others may chirp in here
and add their comments as they remember.

However the goals and topics of these lists did not change.
 
> Who gives a fuck what's written at that site. 

I do.  As I'm sure others who have complained about your posts and are
filtering you do.

> When Igor and I set this
> list up when the old list was announced dead we decided we'd do what we
> wanted and not what 'they' wanted. We also wanted a way so that no other
> list operator ever had to worry about what one or more (or n-1 for that
> matter) other list operators THOUGHT the right way to run the list was.

That's right.  The whole point of this was to prevent the list from being
fascistly controlled at the mailer end.

> As a result we leave it up to individual operators to decide what goes
> into and out of their node, but they may not filter traffic they relay
> from other nodes in any way. It's worked pretty damn well I'd say.

That's right it has, and that's not the issue.
 
> I don't believe in the concept of 'control', I see it as an extension of
> ego and self-absorption. As a result I don't filter the SSZ node ever for
> anything, not my job. 

I completely and totally agree with you.  Cypherpunks is and should always
be free of censorship.  It's not about censoring the list automatically at
the server level.  It's about YOU.  Your behavior.

It is not censorship I'm asking you to implement.  It's >SELF< control.

It's your INDIVIDUAL posts that are the issue, their format and content.
Sure Jim, you can post anything you like.  You CAN post about what the
best way to groom your dog would be.   You CAN post about your favorite
movie, or food, or your views on smoking, drinking alcohol, doing drugs
or not, premarital sex, postmarital sex, beastiality, pornography, making
bombs - whether chocolate or WWII engima cracking bombes, theoretical
physics, theoretical or practical law, rocketry, satelite orbits,
cold fusion, scientology, astronomy or astrology.

But *ALL* of those topics have been, are and would still be off topic.
Unless of course there is some relation to what is on topic.  Sure,
discuss quantum computers *IF* it has something to do with encryption.
Sure, discuss amateur rocketry *IF* it has something to do with
encryption or the pursuit of privacy.

Again, this is cypherpunks.  The topics here are limited to those related
to the pursuit of privacy and anonymity through the use of cryptography.

If you think you've found flaws in our legal systems, hey, that's
wonderful.  I commend you for it.  Just discuss it on alt.politics.
Or start up a mailing list called lawyerpunks and invite all the lawyers
in the world to discuss it with you.  You're free to do so, and that
is not censorship, nor fascist control.

You constantly post unrelated items to this list, and to what purpose,
I don't know.  I suspect that you are well intentioned and well meaning,
and you honestly believe that we are interested in your posts.  We may well
be.  But if you and I and others wish to discuss the theory of laws,
quantum physics, rocketry, or otherwise, we can all join you on other
mailing lists or on usenet groups.  Just not here.  Unless of course, there
is a relation to the pursuit of privacy and anonymity by the use of
crypto.

> I intend, and make public my intentions, to focus on
> cryptography, civil liberties, and economics (and related topics). I intend
> to promote a critical and questioning culture as a consequence.
> 
> Money talks, bullshit walks.

So, please talk about privacy and anonymity via crypto here, talk
elsewhere about other topics.

The other issue people have with you is your spamming of the list
with one line url messages.  There's nothing to indicate WHY anyone
should follow the url, further, a lot of them have nothing to do with
crypto, anonymity or privacy.

Further, you've got your big gigantic signature at the bottom and this
one tiny url. That's really bad netiquette.

A lot of us aready read salon, slashdot, the register.  So you're not
providing anything useful.  But, what WOULD be useful is if you wrote
say ONE email with all the urls and small one or two paragraph snippets
from each story and post them all together.

That way, when people read the emails, they get ONE email from you with
ONE copy of your gigantic .sig, and if they're like me (i.e. read all
those web sites already), we can just delete that one message.

Really I do believe that you're trying to be helpful and want to share
the interesting news stories you've found.  Otherwise the question 
becomes why else would you post them?  So if you are trying to be helpful,
why not do it in a way that is helpful rather than in a way that is
annoying?

Look, if you're being a Vulis/Detweiler, it was easy enough to get rid 
of them by plonking.

 
> http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

Hey, look, it's great that you and Igor have created the original CDR's
and are running one of them. But that doesn't change what is ON TOPIC
from what was set to be ON TOPIC when this list was created.  
Again, see it's original CHARTER.  Even that url you list doesn't
specify what is on topic.  The original one I've posted does.

So again, a reminder:

http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/cypherpunks/mailing_list/

Sure says nothing about civil liberties.

Hell, I'll save your lazy ass the trouble: ( *** emphasis mine):

<SNIP>

About cypherpunks

The cypherpunks list is not designed for beginners, although they are welcome.
If you are totally new to crypto, please get and read the crypto FAQ referenced
below. This document is a good introduction, although not short. Crypto is a
subtle field and a good understanding will not come without some study. Please,
as a courtesy to all, do some reading to make sure that your question is not
already frequently asked. 
There are other forums to use on the subject of cryptography. The Usenet group
sci.crypt deals with technical cryptography; cypherpunks deals with technical
details but slants the discussion toward their social implications. The Usenet
group talk.politics.crypto, as is says, is for political theorizing, and
cypherpunks gets its share of that, **** but cypherpunks is all pro-crypto
****; the debates on this list are about how to best get crypto out there. The
Usenet group alt.security.pgp is a pgp-specific group, and questions about pgp
as such are likely better asked there than here. Ditto for alt.security.ripem. 

<SNIP>

Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it.
Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for
themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or other large, faceless
organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence. Cypherpunks know that
people have been creating their own privacy for centuries with whispers,
envelopes, closed doors, and couriers. Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other
people from speaking about their experiences or their opinions. 

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To encrypt is
to indicate the desire for privacy. But to encrypt with weak cryptography is to
indicate not too much desire for privacy. Cypherpunks hope that all people
desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it. 

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography. Cypherpunks wish to learn
about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of it. Cypherpunks
know that cryptographic protocols make social structures. Cypherpunks know how
to attack a system and how to defend it. Cypherpunks know just how hard it is
to make good cryptosystems. 

Cypherpunks love to practice. They love to play with public key cryptography.
They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail forwarding and delivery.
They love to play with DC-nets. They love to play with secure communications of
all kinds. 

Cypherpunks write code. They know that someone has to write code to defend
privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write it. Cypherpunks
publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks may practice and play with
it. Cypherpunks realize that security is not built in a day and are patient
with incremental progress. 

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. Cypherpunks
know that software can't be destroyed. Cypherpunks know that a widely dispersed
system can't be shut down. 

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy. 

<SNIP>




-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 15 13:36:32 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:36:32 -0800
Subject: [Jim Choate]
In-Reply-To: <3AB10BA9.DFD9C005@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFOEFKDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Sunder wrote:

> Recall that what had happened was that a
> hard censorship system was set up where
> Sandy Sandford (if memory does not fail),
> served as a filter between an uncensored
> list and a censored list.
>
> This was done because of a certain pest
> named Vulis, who much like you was spamming
> the list with his noise.
>
> The fatal pill was simply a message that
> Sandy could not forward to either list as
> it would have jeopardized his job.  At
> that point, Sandy had to step down as he
> could not complete his role as filter.

Close, but no cigar.  :-D

a) I'm Sandy Sandfort.

b) My job was never in jeopardy, not would that have stopped me if it had
been the only issue.  (I've quit job for less.)  The message in question was
a libelous lie, I personally knew to be false.  It was obviously designed
specifically to exploit the gapping flaw in the system under which I was
allowed to filter the list.

What was the flaw?  Originally, I approached John Gilmore with a plan I had
worked out to enforce civility and relevance on the list.  It did not
include any pre-filtering of content.  He didn't like my plan, and instead
offered me a take-it-or-leave-it proposition.  Under his plan, I would
personally pre-approve every message going to the filtered list.  So severe
was the problem on the list, that I foolishly agreed to abandon my plan and
go along with John's.  Unfortunately, that was a huge mistake; the rest is
history.

One last word about John.  I think John has been, and continues to be, the
most effective and hardworking Cypherpunk in the world.  He's clever,
fearless and he puts his money where his mouth is.  Compared to him, most of
the other Cypherpunk luminaries are just big talkers (even not compared to
him, for that matter).  Yeah, I think John had his head totally up his ass
with regard to his choice to filter the Cypherpunks list.  Given his many
"good works," though, I've long since given him a pass on that little
mistake.





From bf at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 15 11:54:01 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:54:01 -0600
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
Message-ID: <3AB11DD9.619751FB@mindspring.com>


	
"Copyright holders aren't going to be happy with Freenet and
                    Gnutella," Mohr said. "They are going to want to
start monitoring
                    people at the ISP level, and that means there is
going to be a
                    coming war between individual privacy versus network
security." 

http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,42438,00.html




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Mar 15 10:56:18 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:56:18 -0500
Subject: firewall
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010315084135.009f3090@dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu>
Message-ID: <3AB11052.51962007@sunder.net>


cory ertle wrote:
> 
> Hey
> I want to see if my girl is cheating on me by hacking into her e-mail
> account at school. Now i know enough about here to bypass her pass pretty
> easily but i however don't know the best way to go about getting to her
> account. She uses a network based e-mail account through Eudora 4.3. How do
> I get through their firewall. The school is a small
> private catholic high school so their firewall is not teh best out there i
> am sure of that.

Don't.  If you aren't just a paranoid nut, and you suspect she's cheating
on you, i.e. your gut is telling you something's not right, she probably is
cheating on you.  Move on.  Get over it.  Don't hack.  The feds will be on
your ass faster that you can say "Get lost bitch."

Unless of course you are one of the many trolling feds who monitor and
post on this list and ask for bomb making receipies: in that case
the answer to this email is that same as the answer to the "How do I get
to Carnagie Hall?" joke. i.e. "Go fuck yourself."

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From squid at panix.com  Thu Mar 15 11:11:09 2001
From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu)
Date: 15 Mar 2001 14:11:09 -0500
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103151415220.9171-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103151415220.9171-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <oxgk85q3l0y.fsf@panix1.panix.com>


Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi> writes:

> On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, John Young wrote:
> 
> >"According to the American Association of Blood Banks,
> >280,000 paternity tests were conducted in 1999, three
> >times as many as a decade earliet. And in 28 percent of
> >the tests, the man tested was found not to be the father."
> 
> Paternity test subjects are hardly representative of the whole population.

Indeed.  Women are underrepresented.

YY




From mischief at lanesbry.com  Wed Mar 14 19:12:49 2001
From: mischief at lanesbry.com (Ralph Wallis)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:12:49 +1100
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <200103150257.VAA10657@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 09:46:24PM -0500
References: <200103150156.RAA23020@user1.hushmail.com> <200103150257.VAA10657@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010315141249.D14383@lanesbry.com>


On Wednesday, 14 Mar 2001 at 21:46, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> Aluger commanded:
> 
> >I'd like to see a cite to this.
> 
> New York Times, March 11, 2001, page 1:
> 
> "According to the American Association of Blood Banks,
> 280,000 paternity tests were conducted in 1999, three
> times as many as a decade earliet. And in 28 percent of
> the tests, the man tested was found not to be the father."

A similar study of email to cypherpunks shows that
up to 28% of all emails are trolls.




From decoy at iki.fi  Thu Mar 15 04:16:14 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:16:14 +0200 (EET)
Subject: WSJ: NSA Computer Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <200103150257.VAA10657@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103151415220.9171-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, John Young wrote:

>"According to the American Association of Blood Banks,
>280,000 paternity tests were conducted in 1999, three
>times as many as a decade earliet. And in 28 percent of
>the tests, the man tested was found not to be the father."

Paternity test subjects are hardly representative of the whole population.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Mar 15 15:14:40 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:14:40 -0800
Subject: One of Jim Bell's former hobbies.
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC12@exna07.securitydyna
  m  ics.com>
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC12@exna07.securitydynam
   ics.com>
Message-ID: <a05010408b6d6fb84f815@[207.111.241.203]>


At 5:29 PM -0500 3/15/01, Trei, Peter wrote:
>I was researching something entirely non-cpunkish
>(yes, it was work-related :-) and came across this
>page:
>
>http://www.multigame.com/spacewar.html
>
>Jim apparenly had/has a really cool Spacewar
>console at home, which an appreciative gamer
>rescued shortly before the JBTs moved in.


Seattle, WA (AP) -- Persecutors in the Northwest are reportedly 
investigating reports that  James Dalton Bell, notorious 
cyber-criminal, was also involved in a ring trading "Spacewar" 
secrets and, persecutors claim, even hardware.

The revelation became public on Thursday when a report surfaced that 
Spacewar technology is now being offered for sale:

"On a whim I decided to try to strike up a conversation with the 
fellow offering the parts locally in hopes of just picking them up 
instead of having them mailed to me. He (Jim Bell) came by where I 
work with the parts and we chatted a bit.

"I arranged a visit to see this "sit down" Space War. Much to my 
suprise it actually was a sit-at Vectorbeam SpaceWar! The monitor was 
dead, but the rest of the machine was in excellent condition. It was 
purchased by Tektronix (apparently when it was new) and kept as 
amusement for the engineers for numerous years.
Jim told me he was a graduate of MIT and remembered playing "Computer 
Space" on the PDP's there when he was a student, so when he happened 
across the SpaceWar at a Tektronix surplus sale he picked it up. It 
had then sat in his basement until I showed up."

(The remainder of this report has been classified by the persecutors.)

"We understand the Spacewar program is a classified Los Alamos 
project," said Assistant State Persecutor Fobb Paris, "so this report 
that Bell has been trading highly-classified Spacewar technology 
demands investigation."

Paris added, "We have already issued a subpoena to the reporter who 
broke the story."




From atek3 at gmx.net  Thu Mar 15 15:17:26 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:17:26 -0800
Subject: Junior AP
References: <200103162301.f2GN10D07354@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <010e01c0ada6$1c3fe620$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


f*cking asshole parents, when I played with guns as a child, I always took
the magazine out and racked the slide.

atek
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Cordian" <emc at artifact.psychedelic.net>
To: <cypherpunks at cyberpass.net>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 3:01 PM
Subject: CDR: Junior AP


> The AP is reporting that the three year old son of a police officer, in
> Clarkesdale, Mississippi, climbed into the back seat of the family truck
> while his off-duty father stopped for gas, picked up dad's pistol, aimed
> it at the gas station attendant, and shot him in the face.
>
> The attendant, an unfortunate James Collins, 43, is in critical condition.
>
> Remember, guns don't kill people, toddlers do.
>
> --
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
>
>




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Mar 15 16:42:38 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:42:38 -0800
Subject: using tech during a crime
In-Reply-To: <3AB0F0A6.49015526@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010315164238.008f9720@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:41 AM 3/15/01 -0600, Blank Frank wrote:
>
>					If you are caught
>                                         using a radio in the commission
>of a crime
>                                         your charges can be enhanced
>with
>                                         Federal statutes based on the
>                                         Communications Act of 1934 as
>amended. 
>
>http://www.gmrsweb.com/gmrsfrswhat.html

Interesting.  How long before they figure out that cell phones are radios?

And that GSM's A5/1 or /2 might count as encryption in more gullible places.

"...The use of metal or electricity during a crime shall enhance penalties..."



 






  







From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 15 18:52:13 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:52:13 -1000
Subject: firewall
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010315084135.009f3090@dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315165151.00df5100@flex.com>


Have you asked at firewall-wizards-l ???  ;)

At 08:45 AM 3/15/01 -0500, cory ertle wrote:
 >Hey 	
 >I want to see if my girl is cheating on me by hacking into her e-mail
 >account at school. Now i know enough about here to bypass her pass pretty
 >easily but i however don't know the best way to go about getting to her
 >account. She uses a network based e-mail account through Eudora 4.3. How do
 >I get through their firewall. The school is a small
 >private catholic high school so their firewall is not teh best out there i
 >am sure of that.
 >						Thanx
 >							mike
 >
 > 




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Mar 15 16:53:59 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:53:59 -0800
Subject: raves
In-Reply-To: <c.12975451.27e2acc5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010315165359.00906a50@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:39 PM 3/15/01 EST, KaRa1704 at aol.com wrote:
>i want to request rave flyers.. you kno where i can get some......old/new?
>

We used to do a lot of ranting and raving, now we just look forward
to bleating and babbling into the dream..



 






  







From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 15 14:03:19 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:03:19 -0500
Subject: Paternity issues
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC11@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net]
> 
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> 
> >
> >I've heard similar figures from the CDC - when they discover 
> >genetic disease, they often do tests to find out which parent 
> >it was inherited through - and about the same fraction of the 
> >time, they find that kids are no relation to their fathers. 
> >
> 
> Here's another tidbit ... this time on a page that deals with 
> genetic testing.  Their estimates for general population seem 
> to be in the 10% range. 
> 
> at http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ctf706.htm:
>    ... In about a
>    third of the welfare cases and 10% of other
>    cases, lab directors say that the father named by
>    the mother turns out not to be the biological
>    parent....
> 
> 			Bear
> 
This is still a mis-reading. The population they are refering
to is self-selected - men who, for one reason or another,
decide to spend the $450 - $600 it costs to do the tests.

For most people, that's not an insignificant outlay, and will
not be taken unless there is some other reason for suspicion.
When the price gets down to the <$100 range, I hope that it
becomes a standard part of the childbirth package.

I heard somewhere that ~10% of firstborns are cuckoos (can't 
give a cite), but the number is lower for later children.  

Peter Trei




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 15 14:03:19 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:03:19 -0500
Subject: Paternity issues
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC11@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net]
> 
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> 
> >
> >I've heard similar figures from the CDC - when they discover 
> >genetic disease, they often do tests to find out which parent 
> >it was inherited through - and about the same fraction of the 
> >time, they find that kids are no relation to their fathers. 
> >
> 
> Here's another tidbit ... this time on a page that deals with 
> genetic testing.  Their estimates for general population seem 
> to be in the 10% range. 
> 
> at http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ctf706.htm:
>    ... In about a
>    third of the welfare cases and 10% of other
>    cases, lab directors say that the father named by
>    the mother turns out not to be the biological
>    parent....
> 
> 			Bear
> 
This is still a mis-reading. The population they are refering
to is self-selected - men who, for one reason or another,
decide to spend the $450 - $600 it costs to do the tests.

For most people, that's not an insignificant outlay, and will
not be taken unless there is some other reason for suspicion.
When the price gets down to the <$100 range, I hope that it
becomes a standard part of the childbirth package.

I heard somewhere that ~10% of firstborns are cuckoos (can't 
give a cite), but the number is lower for later children.  

Peter Trei






From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 15 14:29:14 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:29:14 -0500
Subject: One of Jim Bell's former hobbies.
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC12@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


I was researching something entirely non-cpunkish 
(yes, it was work-related :-) and came across this 
page:

http://www.multigame.com/spacewar.html

Jim apparenly had/has a really cool Spacewar
console at home, which an appreciative gamer
rescued shortly before the JBTs moved in.

Peter Trei




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 15 14:29:14 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:29:14 -0500
Subject: One of Jim Bell's former hobbies.
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC12@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


I was researching something entirely non-cpunkish 
(yes, it was work-related :-) and came across this 
page:

http://www.multigame.com/spacewar.html

Jim apparenly had/has a really cool Spacewar
console at home, which an appreciative gamer
rescued shortly before the JBTs moved in.

Peter Trei




From allyn at well.com  Thu Mar 15 18:07:16 2001
From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:07:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: firewall
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010315084135.009f3090@dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103151806320.9054-100000@well.com>



Please don't.

What you are asking is very illegal.

Please keep your hands in your pockets and leave thing alone.

Thank you

Mark





From KaRa1704 at aol.com  Thu Mar 15 15:39:49 2001
From: KaRa1704 at aol.com (KaRa1704 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:39:49 EST
Subject: raves
Message-ID: <c.12975451.27e2acc5@aol.com>


i want to request rave flyers.. you kno where i can get some......old/new?




From ashwood at msn.com  Thu Mar 15 18:18:45 2001
From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:18:45 -0600
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
References: <3AB11DD9.619751FB@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <011001c0adc0$2dd60260$48ac80ac@josephas>


I'm sorry, there will be no war _between_ security of any kind, and privacy
of any kind. One implies the other.

If something is private, it must be secure
If something is secure, there is obviously something worth keeping
restricted.

Now how exactly are they going to start monitoring people at the ISP level,
when we are all free to make use of things such as IPSec, Freedom, etc? If
we don't exercise our rights, they can of course take them away.
                        Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Blank Frank" <bf at mindspring.com>
To: <cypherpunks at cyberpass.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 1:54 PM
Subject: CDR: content owners vs. ISPs


>
> "Copyright holders aren't going to be happy with Freenet and
>                     Gnutella," Mohr said. "They are going to want to
> start monitoring
>                     people at the ISP level, and that means there is
> going to be a
>                     coming war between individual privacy versus network
> security."
>
> http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,42438,00.html
>




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Mar 15 12:37:49 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:37:49 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: IWF newsgroups policy summary paper plus John Carr's submission]
Message-ID: <3AB1281C.DC44FB4C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Cross-posted without permission from another list. This one's on-topic
in a know-your-enemy sort of way. As near to a reasoned argument for net
censorship as you can get. Needless to say I disagree with it. (As does
Yaman - he is merely the messenger here). The section that begins "The
fact that the Internet is an international medium " is particularly
incoherent.

The IWF is a UK ISP's club, John Carr is a well-known campaigner against
freedom of speech, the issue is whether ISPs should be expected to
censor newsfeeds. 

Ken Brown

Yaman Akdeniz wrote:
> 
> A summary of the responses to the IWF newsgroups policy paper is
> at http://www.iwf.org.uk/about/newsgroupconsultationsummary.htm
> For some unknown or unclear reason, the IWF is now inviting "further
> comments over the next four weeks" before the IWF board publishes
> its recommendations on this issue.
> 
> In the meantime here is John Carr's submission to the IWF. Mine is at
> http://www.cyber-rights.org/reports/crcl_iwf_newsgroups.htm
> 
> Yaman
> 
> ============================================
> 
> Children's Charities Coalition for Internet Safety Working to Make
> the Internet a Safer Place for Kids
> 
> Response to IWF Consultation Document on Newsgroups
> 
> Introduction
> 
> The Internet Watch Foundation was established in 1996 following the
> publication of The Safety Net Agreement", a tri-partite statement of
> aims signed by the UK's Internet Service Providers (ISPs), the
> Metropolitan Police, and the DTI on behalf of the Government.
> 
> A major objective of the Safety Net Agreement was to set out the
> operating principles for a UK HotLine aimed at removing any illegal
> material found on the Internet.
> 
> Anyone finding what they believe to be illegal material is encouraged
> to report it to the IWF who will inspect it and, if they agree that it is
> likely to be found to be illegal by a UK court, take steps to have it
> removed from all UK-based servers. The IWF simlutaneously informs
> the Police. If the material is found to originate overseas or to reside on
> an overseas sever, the IWF arranges for it to be reported to the
> relevant overseas police force.
> 
> A particular priority has always been given to child pornography and
> this is principally found within Newsgroups.
> 
> Variation in practice
> 
> Some UK ISPs do not provide access to any Newsgroups. Some
> provide only a partial "feed" based on their own commercial
> assessment of what their customers want. Others might provide either
> a full or a partial feed but will specifically block access to all the
> Newsgroups known to contain child pornography on a regular basis.
> Other ISPs offer a full feed and in so doing are providing access to
> Newsgroups known to contain child pornography on a regular basis.
> ISPs in this category will only remove specific postings containing
> illegal material as and when these are drawn to their attention. Such
> material might therefore be available on their servers for 24 hours or
> more, depending on how long it takes for someone to find it, examine
> it, report it to the IWF, for the IWF to examine and issue a notice
> requiring it to be removed and for the ISP then to act on the notice.
> 
> Such divergent practice greatly weakens the credibility of the IWF
> and reflects badly on the Internet industry in general.
> 
> Thus we are pleased that the IWF has recently decided to undertake
> a consultation exercise on how, in future, to handle Newsgroups that
> regularly contain child pornography. Hopefully at the end of this
> process a new position will be agreed which every member of IWF
> can accept and act upon without there being any significant differences
> or contradictions.
> 
> Numerical background
> 
> We note that there are over 30,000 Newsgroups currently in
> existence and that, of these, according to the IWF's own definition
> only about 28  "regularly contain child pornography".
> 
> Seventy seven per cent (77%) of all illegal material reported to the
> IWF came from these 28 or so Newsgroups. We note also that not
> everything within these Newsgroups is illegal material: the average
> seems to be 10-15%, rising to 45% in some of the worst groups.
> Thus a decision to block these groups is also seemingly a decision,
> effectively, to block some legal communications.
> 
> We support blocking
> 
> We think it is important to attack and harry paedophiles and child
> pornographers whenever and wherever they seek to ply their trade.
> Thus our view, unreservedly, is that the IWF should support a total
> block on all Newsgroups that are known to contain child pornography
> on a regular basis and that all members of the IWF should be required
> to implement this decision.
> 
> The UK's ISPs should be doing everything they can to make it as
> hard as possible for child pornographers to find or distribute their
> illegal material. We acknowledge that, because of the nature of the
> Internet, barring Newsgroups will not stop all UK residents from
> either obtaining or distributing child pornography over the Internet. It
> is very likely, however, to reduce the numbers. We must not let the
> best be the enemy of the good.
> 
> The fact that the Internet is an international medium is no reason why,
> it seems to us, each country should not stake out its own position, set
> its own standards in these culturally and legally-defined areas, and
> then attempt wherever possible to rally others to its stand. The
> alternative, of waiting for worldwide agreement, is simply a recipe for
> inaction.
> 
> Risk of displacement
> 
> We acknowledge that if a blocking policy is implemented there is a
> risk of displacement into other Newsgroups. However this happens
> anyway. If 77% of reported illegal material comes from the 28 then,
> obviously, the remaining 23% came from the 29,978 other
> Newsgroups which exist.
> 
> The spread of Newsgroups affected by this policy will therefore need
> to be kept under review. New ones might need to be added, or
> indeed previously banned ones might qualify to be re-admitted. These
> are judgement calls that the IWF, working closely with the Police, is
> well-placed to make.
> 
> In relation to the potential denial of free speech to those who use the
> 28 identified Newsgroups for legal purposes: if the fact of closing
> down a Newsgroup was actually the same as preventing someone
> from airing their legal views, then there may be a real free speech issue
> to consider.
> 
> Reject sophistry
> 
> The so-called "free speech" argument is in this context entirely
> disingenuous. It should be rejected as mere sophistry.
> 
> Any responsible Internet user who was concerned to isolate or reduce
> the traffic in illegal child pornography would surely shun and have no
> contact with Newsgroups where illegal material is regularly to be
> found?
> 
> We would suggest that if users of Newsgroups where child
> pornography is regularly found, and which generally have explicit titles
> like "Having sex with very young children", truly want to continue
> posting legal material to those Newsgroups, and really do feel they
> cannot say their legal speech anywhere else in cyberspace, then they
> ought to take it up with the other users of that Newsgroup and get
> them to stop posting illegal material there.
> 
> Alternatively maybe they could start another group but make it clear
> that they only want legal material to be posted there? Surely it is the
> actions of the illegal users that are causing the problems, not those of
> us who are trying to reduce the traffic in illegal and highly damaging
> child pornography? ***** 3
> 
> ===============================================
> Information on how to subscribe and unsubscribe to the cyber-rights-UK
> mailing list is at <http://www.cyber-rights.org/mailing.htm>.
> ===============================================




From c at toyi.zzn.com  Thu Mar 15 19:06:56 2001
From: c at toyi.zzn.com (c at toyi.zzn.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:06:56 -0600
Subject: Recommend: Internet Search Software
Message-ID: <200103160306.VAA09497@einstein.ssz.com>




[ This is  the last email to you. After you receive this mail,
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar 15 19:56:13 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:56:13 -0600
Subject: Fight UCITA in Texas!
Message-ID: <3AB18EDD.2F4D1EE3@ssz.com>


http://www.ssz.com/ucita/index.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar 15 20:02:19 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:02:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Fight UCITA in Texas! (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010315220111.5925z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



You'll find that this works better for you...

http://einstein.ssz.com/ucita


---------- Forwarded message ----------

http://www.ssz.com/ucita/index.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar 15 20:50:50 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:50:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
In-Reply-To: <011001c0adc0$2dd60260$48ac80ac@josephas>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010315224819.5925F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Joseph Ashwood wrote:

> I'm sorry, there will be no war _between_ security of any kind, and privacy
> of any kind. One implies the other.
> 
> If something is private, it must be secure
> If something is secure, there is obviously something worth keeping
> restricted.

private <> secure.

secure <> restricted

private ~ resticted (stricly speaking, there are levels of restiction)

Your logic is flawed.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From blankfrank at farc.org  Thu Mar 15 23:08:15 2001
From: blankfrank at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:08:15 -0800
Subject: equal protection in texas and privacy
Message-ID: <3AB1BBDF.9CAF5495@farc.org>


Mar 15, 2001 - 10:39 PM

               State Sodomy Law Ruled Constitutional by
               Appeals Court
               By Kristen Hays
               Associated Press Writer

               HOUSTON (AP) - A Texas appeals court upheld the state's
               sodomy law Thursday in the case of two men charged with
having
               sex in a private home.

               The nine-member 14th Court of Appeals voted 7-2 to
overturn a
               June ruling by three members of the same panel that said
the law
               was unconstitutional because it forbids sex between
same-sex
               partners, yet allows the same acts between heterosexuals.

               The sodomy law, which has been on the books for more than
a
               century, was challenged after John Geddes Lawrence and
Tyron
               Garner were arrested on Sept. 17, 1998 and charged with
               engaging in homosexual conduct.

               Harris County sheriff's deputies had entered Lawrence's
apartment
               after receiving a false report of an armed intruder
inside but found
               the men having sex.

               Under the sodomy law, homosexual oral and anal sex is a
Class C
               misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of up to $500.

               Lawrence and Garner pleaded no contest in a justice of
the peace
               court and later in a Harris County Criminal Court-at-Law
so they
               could start the legal challenge.

               Prosecutor Bill Delmore said he was pleased with the
ruling.

               Ruth E. Harlow, legal director of the Lambda Legal
Defense and
               Education Fund, who argued the case on behalf of the two
men,
               said they would appeal.

               "The court's ruling failed to enforce the constitution's
promise of
               equality," she said.

               She said the ruling also allows the government to
overstep its
               bounds by "bashing down the bedroom door" to criminalize
               consensual sex between same-sex partners.

               "It guts the right to privacy," she said.

               Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Kansas are the only states
that
               outlaw sodomy between same-sex partners. Texas has had a
               sodomy law since 1860 but decriminalized it for
opposite-sex
               partners in 1974.

               Twelve other states prohibit sodomy between same- and
               opposite-sex partners. Harlow said similar laws in
Georgia,
               Tennessee and Montana have recently been thrown out.




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Mar 15 23:13:33 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:13:33 -0500
Subject: Book Review: REPUBLIC.COM Reviewed By Matthew Gaylor
Message-ID: <v04220806b6d76d7ce9e7@[198.4.94.204]>


Title: REPUBLIC.COM
Author: Cass Sunstein
Princeton University Press
Cloth $19.95  ISBN: 0-691-07025-3
224 pages. 5 x 7. (2001)
US Pub. Date: March 19, 2001
Foreign Pub. Date: April 11, 2001

*** Read the first chapter online for free, click here:
http://pup.princeton.edu/chapters/s7014.html

Cass Sunstein is the Karl N. Llewellyn Distinguished Service 
Professor of Jurisprudence at the University of Chicago Law School 
and Department of Political Science. A former law clerk for Justice 
Thurgood Marshall, he has worked for the Office of Legal Counsel in 
the US Department of Justice.

His former works include: "Democracy and the Problem of Free Speech" 
(1993), which won the Goldsmith Prize from Harvard for the best book 
on free speech in that year. "After the Rights Revolution" (1990), 
"The Partial Constitution" (1993), "Free Markets and Social Justice" 
(1997), and "One Case at a Time: Judicial Minimalism on the Supreme 
Court" (1999).  His writings have appeared in the New York Times, and 
the New Republic.  He has also appeared on ABC's Nightline, the 
NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, NBC and CBS evening news and other 
programming.

In "Republic.Com" Cass Sunstein makes the point that in cyberspace 
individuals now have the ability to filter out everything they don't 
want to read or see and filter in only those whose opinions they 
agree with.  He calls this the "Daily Me", the ability to filter only 
the issues that concern you, read only the op-eds that only share 
your point of view.  In short he fears that the Internet will bring 
about a lack of diversity and will amplify extremism and hate groups 
(Whatever that means).  He writes of "cybercascades" that brings 
groups of people together who share similar viewpoints that in turn 
causes group polarization and radicalization.

Here's how he says it works: "Thus, for example, a group whose 
members lean against gun control will, in discussion, provide a wide 
range of arguments against gun control, and the arguments made for 
gun control will be both fewer and weaker.  The group's members, to 
the extent that they shift, will shift toward a more extreme position 
against gun control.  And the group as a whole, if a group decision 
is required, will move not to the median position, but to a more 
extreme point." (Chapter 3, pages 67 68)

He does his argument great damage by using as an example of a hate 
and extremist group the usual left wing target, The National Rifle 
Association (NRA) He trots out the usual suspects such as Skinheads 
and the KKK and fails to mention any of the other hate groups such as 
American supporters of Peru's shining path, environmental terrorists 
who spike logging areas, World Trade Organization protestors/rioters 
or other left wing extremists.  In Chapter three Sunstein speaks of 
the gun rights movement alongside the KKK, God Hates Fags, and other 
hate groups in what can only be considered as an attempt of guilt by 
association.

In Chapter seven, Sunstein writes: "FREE SPEECH IS NOT AN ABSOLUTE" 
his caps not mine.  In fact he mentions this line several times 
throughout the book.  He continues: "We can identify some flaws in 
the emerging view of the First Amendment by investigating the idea 
that the free speech guarantee is "an absolute", in the specific 
sense that government may not regulate speech at all.  This view 
plays a large role in public debate, and in some ways it is a 
salutary myth." He mentions the usual examples of child pornography, 
copyright and threats to assassinate the President as examples of the 
government restricting speech.   He creates what I consider a straw 
man argument by prefacing these remarks for his "Policies and 
Proposals" in Chapter eight.

He laments the fact that in the past the Public Broadcasting System 
(PBS) in a four station universe had a significant voice.  But with 
the advent of programming with hundreds of choices the justification 
for PBS is diluted.

As a partial solution he endorses Andrew Shapiro's suggestion from 
the book "The Control Revolution" that the government should support 
a public website, Public.Net. Sunstein writes: "Public.Net would 
provide an icon, visible on your home computer.  You would be under 
no obligation to click on it; indeed in a free society perhaps you 
should be permitted to remove the icon if you really do not like it." 
He envisions Public.Net to include sections on the "environment, 
civil rights, gun control, foreign affairs, and so forth." (Chapter 
8, page 181)

But what I find most troubling is his idea to require websites to 
maintain hyperlinks to those with differing viewpoints.  His example 
on page 188:
" We might easily imagine a situation in which textual references to 
organizations or institutions are hyperlinks, so that if, for 
example, a conservative magazine such as the "National Review" refers 
to the World Wildlife Fund or Environmental Defence, it also allows 
readers instant access to their sites."

Sunstein continues: "To the extent that sites do not do this, 
voluntary self regulation through cooperative agreements might do the 
job.  If these routes do not work, it would be worthwhile considering 
content-neutral regulation, designed to ensure more in the way of 
both links and hyperlinks."

Princeton sent me a free review copy of Republic.Com, which I'm glad 
they did as I would have been highly upset to have paid money for it. 
I can understand why Professor Sunstein makes the suggestions he 
does.  In my opinion it has less to do with wanting to expand free 
and open discourse and more to do with control.  Who gets to decide 
which links get to be included as "opposing viewpoints"?  I did note 
that many of Sunstein's examples involved a right wing organization 
being forced to carry left wing links.

The celebrated civil libertarian, John Stuart Mill, contended that 
enlightened judgment is possible only if one considers all facts and 
ideas, from whatever source, and tests one's own conclusions against 
opposing views. Therefore, all points of view -- even those that are 
"bad" or socially harmful -- should be represented in the 
"marketplace of ideas." And the Internet is an incredibly free and 
eclectic smorgasbord of ideas. And just as we have freedom to choose 
which sites we visit or what print magazines or books we read, it 
would be the end of freedom as we know it if the government forced us 
to read or watch what they want, even if it were only a link. 
Thanks, but no thanks to Republic.Com.

Regards,   Matthew Gaylor-

Cass Sunstein's Homepage: http://home.uchicago.edu/~csunstei/
[Which I might add carries no links to opposing viewpoints.]

Name: Cass R. Sunstein
Work Address: University of Chicago Law School, 1111 East 60th 
Street, Chicago, Illinois, 60637
Telephone: 773-702-9498 (business)
Fax: 773-702-0730 (business)
email: Cass_Sunstein at law.uchicago.edu
  E-mail: csunstei at midway.uchicago.edu




**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
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From George at Orwellian.Org  Fri Mar 16 02:28:33 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 05:28:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Now if Gilmore would provide an open phone relay...
Message-ID: <200103161028.FAA25210@www8.aa.psiweb.com>


UniBlab ran up a $500 LD bill using my calling card.
The little darling.

----

http://www.securityfocus.com/news/172
#    
#    Spam war gags Gilmore
#    
#    Verio cuts off EFF co-founder John Gilmore over open mail server. 
#    By Kevin Poulsen March 15, 2001 5:19 PM PT
#    
#    Aggressive anti-spam measures by Dallas-based ISP Verio have 
#    stripped some of the Internet's digerati of the ability to send 
#    email, and EFF co-founder John Gilmore is calling it censorship.
#    
#    Gilmore's home network includes what anti-spam crusaders call 
#    an "open relay" -- a mail server that accepts and forwards email 
#    from anyone. For decades, the practice was considered central 
#    to good network citizenship. But in recent years, spammers have 
#    begun hijacking open relays to multiply, sometimes a thousand 
#    fold, the number of junk messages they can send at once.
#    
#    That abuse sparked a campaign by anti-spam activists to close 
#    the open relays, a campaign that Gilmore, an entrepreneur, 
#    electronic civil libertarian, and co-founder of the Electronic 
#    Frontier Foundation (EFF), has little use for.
#    
#    "It reminds me of the X-ray machines they have in airports and 
#    the security checks they put people through," says Gilmore. "It 
#    doesn't actually solve the problem, it just infringes on the 
#    rights of the innocent."
#    
#    Even as commercial ISPs began tightening down their mail servers 
#    -- rejecting outgoing mail from non-subscribers, and forcing 
#    subscribers to electronically prove their identity before sending 
#    mail -- Gilmore kept his own mail server open to the world, a 
#    service he says his friends have come to rely on.
#    
#    "Part of the reason my friends are using my machine is their 
#    own ISPs' anti-spam measures prevent them from sending email 
#    as they move around in the world," says Gilmore. "If one user 
#    connects to my machine from an unknown address and sends a 
#    message, my machine forwards it on. It's happy to. That could 
#    be John Perry Barlow sending email from Africa to his girlfriend."
#    
#    Gilmore says he shuts down spammers when he detects them, but 
#    acknowledges that some junk mail gets through his system. Late 
#    last month, one such spam message -- from a would-be entrepreneur 
#    offering professional spamming services to the public -- resulted 
#    in a complaint to Gilmore's ISP, Verio, from an anti-spam group.
#    
#    Verio's sweeping acceptable-use policy prohibits open relays. 
#    When Gilmore refused to put fetters on his mail server, the 
#    company's security department slapped a filter on Gilmore's T1 
#    net connection Wednesday, blocking outgoing email from his 
#    network.
#    
#    A Verio spokesperson did not return a telephone call Thursday. 
#    Verio security team leader Darren Grabowski declined to comment. 
#    "What we do is between us and our customer," said Grabowski.
#    
#    Anti-spam pressure Gilmore believes anti-spam efforts have gone 
#    too far, and impact the rights of innocent people. "Verio is 
#    filtering me because they were pressured by a pressure group, 
#    and they don't have enough intelligence to stand up against that 
#    pressure."
#    
#    But the head of the anti-spam business that forwarded the 
#    complaint to Verio last month says the ISP did the right thing.
#    
#    "It's been a very long time since open relays were considered 
#    acceptable on the net," says Julian Haight, owner of SpamCop.net. 
#    "On today's Internet, things have changed considerably."
#    
#    SpamCop.net lets netizens easily and automatically track and 
#    report spammers and open relays, and maintains a blacklist of 
#    network addresses the company considers spam-friendly. Haight 
#    acknowledges the influence his organization, and other anti-spam 
#    efforts, can exert on an ISP, but he says no one has a right 
#    to operate a service that lends a hand to spammers.
#    
#    "Freedom of speech is not 100 percent," says Haight. "You're 
#    not allowed to come into my home to preach to me... Open servers 
#    are responsible for making copies of unsolicited commercial emails 
#    and sending it to people who don't want it."
#    
#    Gilmore argues that by making decisions about what to allow or 
#    disallow over their network, ISPs risk losing the common carrier 
#    status that protects them from legal liability for their 
#    customer's actions.
#    
#    "Ultimately, they should be a pipe. They shouldn't care what 
#    content goes through. For them to say, well, we'll send your 
#    IP packets... except when you send this particular type of IP 
#    packet, it takes them out of the realm of a common carrier," 
#    says Gilmore. "That puts the entire Internet in jeopardy."



    6/13/2000 Hannity & Colmbes, Representive Dan Burton, giving his
    URL to where he put a report critical of Clinton on the WWW:
    
        "It's at indiana.com"
    
    [confers with someone off-screen]
    
        "It's at indiana.gov.com"




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar 16 05:09:51 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 07:09:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Now if Gilmore would provide an open phone relay...
In-Reply-To: <200103161028.FAA25210@www8.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010316070632.5925N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Duh, and how long have I been saying this and being told I'm the idiot
missing the point? As Tim says "Check the archives".

http://einstein.ssz.com

re "Custodiet ipsos Custodes?"

Wonder if he'll be a gentleman and recognize his predecessors on this
matter? Nah, probably not...

On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote:

> http://www.securityfocus.com/news/172
> #    
> #    Spam war gags Gilmore
> #    
> #    Verio cuts off EFF co-founder John Gilmore over open mail server. 
> #    By Kevin Poulsen March 15, 2001 5:19 PM PT
> #    
> #    Aggressive anti-spam measures by Dallas-based ISP Verio have 
> #    stripped some of the Internet's digerati of the ability to send 
> #    email, and EFF co-founder John Gilmore is calling it censorship.
[SSZ: Text deleted]
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar 16 05:15:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 07:15:17 -0600
Subject: The Register
Message-ID: <3AB211E5.58796E6A@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17639.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar 16 05:27:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 07:27:17 -0600
Subject: kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After Christian Taunts.
Message-ID: <3AB214B5.A797E647@ssz.com>


http://www.Kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/3/15/124222/252

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Mar 16 08:15:59 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:15:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
In-Reply-To: <011001c0adc0$2dd60260$48ac80ac@josephas>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103160808010.15473-100000@bolt.sonic.net>



Right now, attempts to control the internet lean on ISP's and 
backbone sites pretty heavily.  Most of the nodes on the internet 
have exactly ONE route to the internet, and if you can get to 
somebody's upstream, she's toast. 

In the long run, I don't think the machinery of freedom is going 
to work very well until most of the nodes on the internet have 
at least three or four different routes to the internet.  

One person connected to one ISP is easy to monitor, easy to 
interfere with.  But if a dozen people connected to a dozen ISP's 
are also all connected to each other directly, then each and 
every one of them becomes much harder to interfere with. 

Unfortunately, extra phone lines and nailed-up connections 
cost money, and at that point they'd just start going for the 
phone companies instead of the ISP's anyway.  The benefit is 
that  common carrier anti-censorship laws might be a little 
stronger with phone lines.

				Bear




On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Joseph Ashwood wrote:

>I'm sorry, there will be no war _between_ security of any kind, and privacy
>of any kind. One implies the other.
>
>If something is private, it must be secure
>If something is secure, there is obviously something worth keeping
>restricted.
>
>Now how exactly are they going to start monitoring people at the ISP level,
>when we are all free to make use of things such as IPSec, Freedom, etc? If
>we don't exercise our rights, they can of course take them away.
>                        Joe
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Blank Frank" <bf at mindspring.com>
>To: <cypherpunks at cyberpass.net>
>Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 1:54 PM
>Subject: CDR: content owners vs. ISPs
>
>
>>
>> "Copyright holders aren't going to be happy with Freenet and
>>                     Gnutella," Mohr said. "They are going to want to
>> start monitoring
>>                     people at the ISP level, and that means there is
>> going to be a
>>                     coming war between individual privacy versus network
>> security."
>>
>> http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,42438,00.html
>>
>




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Mar 16 06:59:13 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:59:13 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Scientologists Force Comment Off Slashdot
Message-ID: <3AB22A41.13F20035@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/16/1256226.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Mar 16 07:31:41 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:31:41 -0600
Subject: Salon.com News | Record low number of police officers killed
Message-ID: <3AB231DD.8D7C4C7A@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2001/03/15/cops/index.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From proff at iq.org  Thu Mar 15 14:35:42 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: 16 Mar 2001 09:35:42 +1100
Subject: Paternity issues
In-Reply-To: Ray Dillinger's message of "Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:28:47 -0800 (PST)"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103151326260.12426-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <wxvgpak6dd.fsf@suburbia.net>


Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> writes:

> at http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ctf706.htm:
>    ... In about a
>    third of the welfare cases and 10% of other
>    cases, lab directors say that the father named by
>    the mother turns out not to be the biological
>    parent....

What's more amusing is the number of cases where fraternal twins show
differing paternity.

--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From rudi at its.co.za  Thu Mar 15 23:36:12 2001
From: rudi at its.co.za (rudi)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:36:12 +0200
Subject: remove
References: <200103160647.AAA10773@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AB1C26C.9CEBF23F@its.co.za>




rstokes44 at YHUW.address.com wrote:

> Disclaimer Below
>
> Hello Fellow Networkers Worldwide.
>
> When I'm asked.... "What is THE STARTER CLUB?"
> my sincere and honest reply is this....
>
> THE STARTER CLUB is simply people helping other
> people get "STARTED" on the right path in an industry
> which is becoming increasingly competitive and
> "scam-infested" with each passing day.
> Why not take a look at what we have to offer you?
> http://www.thestarterclub.com/d.cgi/RS1047
> Thanks For Your Time,
> Rick Stokes
> For a FREE report visit my web site at:
> http://www.angelfire.com/mi2/RStokes/
> List your Site FREE at:
> http://www.trafficwave.net/ffa/rstokes44.html
> Post your Banner FREE at:
> http://www.crazytraffic.com/?rstokes
> Make Money and New Contacts at:
> http://www.pro-list.net/members/basic/RStokes/
>
> You are receiving this message because we are on
> the same list My EMailCenter.  If you feel that you
> received in error or wish to be removed from this
> list. Hit reply and put remove in the subject line.




From bf at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 16 10:02:33 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:02:33 -0600
Subject: censorship and violence in SoCal
Message-ID: <3AB25539.7BE8F3D0@mindspring.com>


According to the lawsuit, district officials told the
librarians ... the books presented a safety
hazard because students who checked them out might be
harassed by other students. 

http://www.latimes.com/editions/orange/20010316/t000023049.html
Noisy School Meeting Over Books on Gay Achievers




From freematt at coil.com  Fri Mar 16 09:20:00 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:20:00 -0500
Subject: loverscaughtontape.com First Amendment Woes
Message-ID: <v0422080cb6d7fb943e6a@[198.4.94.179]>


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  loverscaughtontape.com are the producers 
of the most successful selling adult titles worldwide.  If you're 
easily offended or are not legally able to view adult only material, 
don't click on their link.  Eric <eric at vidbidness.net> who owns 
loverscaughtontape.com and who subscribes to Freematt's Alerts, was 
kind enough to send me me a box full of their DVD's and videos.  Eric 
has appeared on the Howard Stern show and The New York Times did an 
article recently on what happens when an adult business gives money 
to a charity, in this case St. Jude's Children's Hospital in Memphis. 
St. Jude didn't like it when loverscaughtontape.com posted their 
thank you letter on their website.  BTW, the videos are just what 
you'd expect-  People having sex, while being filmed by surveillance 
cameras.]



From decoy at iki.fi  Fri Mar 16 02:34:59 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:34:59 +0200 (EET)
Subject: firewall
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010315084135.009f3090@dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103161234120.18661-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >


On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, cory ertle wrote:

>I want to see if my girl is cheating on me by hacking into her e-mail
>account at school. Now i know enough about here to bypass her pass pretty
>easily but i however don't know the best way to go about getting to her
>account.

I would suggest social engineering, but in this case...

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From decoy at iki.fi  Fri Mar 16 02:34:59 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:34:59 +0200 (EET)
Subject: firewall
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010315084135.009f3090@dewey.sfs.utoledo.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103161234120.18661-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, cory ertle wrote:

>I want to see if my girl is cheating on me by hacking into her e-mail
>account at school. Now i know enough about here to bypass her pass pretty
>easily but i however don't know the best way to go about getting to her
>account.

I would suggest social engineering, but in this case...

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From bf at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 16 11:46:58 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:46:58 -0600
Subject: Digital Body Wire Systems 
Message-ID: <3AB26DB2.A9B1B8A7@mindspring.com>


Digital Body Wire Systems 

Conventional analogue body wire systems suffer from vulnerability to
monitoring. They are also susceptible to drop-outs if the
transmitter moves out of range and temporary loss of communication
results. On the receiver side, the usage of audio cassette
recorders to record conversations is inconvenient and prone to mistakes. 

The DFH-DAR-902 digital spread spectrum body wire system changes all
that by offering: 

    Unique TriMode(TM) modulation system (choice of three operating
modes - three devices in one!)
    Digital encryption for unbeatable security
    Frequency hopping spread spectrum for safety from detection
    Digital audio recording in both the transmitter and receiver
    Multiple receiver capability
    User programmability 



The Transmitter 

                          
                           Contained in an elegant black aluminium case,
the transmitter measures 55 x 87 x 19 mm
                           (2.2 x 3.4 x 0.7 inches) and works on four
standard AAA batteries. The maximum power is
                           400 mW. The in-built digital audio recorder
has over sixty minutes of recording capacity.
                           The recorded audio remains preserved even
when batteries are removed. The transmitting
                           function can be disabled, making it possible
to deploy the device as a solid state recorder
                           only. 

                           The transmitter contains a sensitive
microphone with a connector for an external one.
                           There is also a serial data connector for
interfacing to the base receiver, for the purpose of
                           programming the transmitter and for
downloading the recorded audio. 


The transmitter can operate in one of three possible modes: "hi-fi"
analog, digitally encrypted, and frequency hopping spread
spectrum. The selection between these three modes can by done by
connecting the transmitter to the receiver via a
programming cable, and selecting the mode using the receiver keypad -
simple instructions are clearly shown on the in-built
LCD display of the receiver. 

In a similar way, the transmitter can be also programmed to one of three
possible power settings. This has a direct effect on the
transmission range and the battery life. 

The transmitter can be also connected to the parallel port of a PC via a
special high-speed interface adaptor. This makes it
possible do download the recorded audio directly to a PC in a standard
WAV format, and play it back immediately using standard
multi-media capabilities of a PC. 

The recorded audio can be also downloaded to the recording memory of the
receiver and played back from there. 


http://www.sst.com.au/bodywire.htm




From reeza at flex.com  Fri Mar 16 16:35:21 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:35:21 -1000
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010316174320.5925z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316143337.00d3cb40@flex.com>


At 05:45 PM 3/16/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >In the FBI stats that came out the majority of police officers killed are
 >killed with their own gun? They'd probably been better served by a
 >stun-vest...
 >
 >Perhaps we should take guns away from them, then those fine officers would
 >probably have lived longer.
 >
 >If you can't trust a weapon to a individual, how can you trust it to a
 >group of individuals?

England serves as a fine example here;
With an armed populace and a disarmed police force :: low crime rate
With a disarmed populace and an armed police force :: high crime rate.

Read'em & weep, Phill.

Reese




From 1.10198689.-13 at multexinvestornetwork.com  Fri Mar 16 11:56:04 2001
From: 1.10198689.-13 at multexinvestornetwork.com (Multex Investor)
Date: 16 Mar 2001 14:56:04 -0500
Subject: An Exciting NEW Program From Multex Investor!
Message-ID: <0c5970456191031MINLIST1@multexinvestornetwork.com>



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From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Fri Mar 16 15:01:00 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:01:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Junior AP
Message-ID: <200103162301.f2GN10D07354@artifact.psychedelic.net>


The AP is reporting that the three year old son of a police officer, in
Clarkesdale, Mississippi, climbed into the back seat of the family truck
while his off-duty father stopped for gas, picked up dad's pistol, aimed
it at the gas station attendant, and shot him in the face.

The attendant, an unfortunate James Collins, 43, is in critical condition.

Remember, guns don't kill people, toddlers do.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From andrew at security.za.net  Fri Mar 16 05:28:05 2001
From: andrew at security.za.net (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:28:05 +0200
Subject: kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After Christian Taunts.
In-Reply-To: <3AB214B5.A797E647@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPEEOCCKAA.andrew@security.za.net>


Hi all,

I was reading this article and I must say that I find the author to be
rather biased and strongly disagree with some of the things he said, for
example

-Quote-
To acknowledge that Tempest Smith's classmates were exerting cruel
psychological torture on the young woman with the hymns their church had
taught them would be to indict not only the school children, but the hymns
as well. To make this tragic event public knowledge would be to put a mirror
to the face of the majority, forcing them to see the intolerance in their
own eyes, crumbling their arguments that it no longer exists.
-Unquote-

The use of hymns to impose psychological tramour on someone else cannot
indict the hymns themselves, that is total and utter bullshit, is that not
the same as saying that when someone uses a steak knife to stab someone, the
person who did the stabbing is responsible as well as the knife?  Total
utter crap.

Secondly:

-Quote-
Cassie Bernall was not persecuted because of her beliefs, she was gunned
down at random by madmen. Tempest Smith was driven to suicide by the
constant harassment from her peers, who were singling her out specifically
for her religion. The former's death was a senseless act of violence, the
latter's the result of hate.
-Unquote-

They claim persecution due to belief, but at the same time Ive been around
wiccans, and I would be very very interested to know just how much pushing
of her beliefs she did on other people, because Ive heard the ridicule of
Christians that come out of wiccan mouths.  I dont agree with any form of
religious persecution, and I believe that a person should be able to believe
what they want, and express it how they want, providing that they dont push
it on other people, hence, if this story is infact true, the kids that
pushed her to suicide were wrong, but Im interested to hear what she did to
incite this, because I seriously doubt kids singing hymns at her without
either provocation from her or alternatively pushing from their
teachers/parents.

Anyway, I just thought I would give my comments

Later

Andrew



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Jim Choate
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 3:27 PM
To: cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com; hell at EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After
Christian Taunts.


http://www.Kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/3/15/124222/252

--
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com  Fri Mar 16 17:23:45 2001
From: bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:23:45 -0800
Subject: StockUpTicks NewsLetter
Message-ID: <LYRIS-163101-670-2001.03.16-17.25.43--cypherpunks#algebra.com@lyris.stocknight.com>


 [Stockupticks.com]                                              [Image]

[Image]
 Welcome to Stockupticks.com Newsletter        Issue 4 - March 16, 2001
[Image]

 [Image][Image]                                                 [Image]
        [Image]Imark Corporation (TSE: IAK)              [Image]

        Investment Highlights:

           * Huge target market -- $315 billion trucking fleet
             industry in North America
           * Solid revenue producer poised for breakout phase
             with the launch of initiatives in progress
           * Plans are under way to apply for trading on a U.S.
             stock exchange
           * Strong balance sheet -- Current ratio is 2:1
           * Attractive price to sales multiple of 2X sales
           * Imark is using Computer Associates International,
             Inc. (NYSE: CA) innovative Jasmine(ii) eBusiness
             platform to support its eHighwayman.com portal

                                      VITAL STATS   March 2001
                                     Fiscal Year
                                     End          December 31
         Imark Corporation
         390 Bay Street, Suite 710   52 Week High $4.66 to
         Toronto, Ontario            - Low        $1.00
         M5H 2Y2 Canada              Recent Price $1.39
                                     (3/6/01)
         Phone (416) 971-4421        Revenue
                                     (est. 2000   $3.4 million
         Investor Relations: Dino    FYE)
         DiVito, CFO /               Shares
         dino.divito at imarkcorp.com   Outstanding  6.693 million
         Corporate Web site:
         www.imarkcorp.com           Float        1 million
                                     Market Cap   $9.3 million
                                    (All currency references in
                                       this profile are in US
                                              dollars)
        [Image]Business Summary                          [Image]

         [Image]Imark Corporation is a diverse multi-media
                company that is based in Toronto, Ontario
        Canada and trades on the Toronto Stock Exchange.
        Imark’s business units are currently active in four
        distinct communication channels: Business-2-Industry
        (B2I) on a virtual private satellite network,
        distribution and audio content delivered over the
        Internet, books on tape and television production.

        eHighwayman.com is a B2I (Business-to-Industry)
        solution, being developed with Computer Associates to
        address trucking industry issues that relate to
        managing a mobile, geographically dispersed work
        force.

        Audioeverywhere.com is a division of Imark that
        delivers digital audio content on demand.

        DH Audio is a provider of books on tape and Imark’s
        signature unit as the company’s first business
        endeavor.

        Imark also operates Animazing Entertainment, which
        produces and distributes the ‘The Swamp Critters of
        Lost Lagoon™’ children’s television programming.
        Animazing also provides live ‘Critters’ characters at
        two U.S. theme parks and sells Swamp Critters
        merchandise.


        [Image]Brand Names and Business Units            [Image]

         [Image]eHighwayman.com is a business-2-industry
                virtual private network.

        eHighwayman.com will provide a complete and
        comprehensive, Web-enabled, private-satellite-network
        designed for truck drivers, fleet owners/operators and
        others in the transportation industry. The eHighwayman
        communication portal will allow users to access and
        retrieve critical information, download audio, enhance
        their safety knowledge, expand fleet-to-driver
        communication and reduce driver turnover. Imark is a
        leader in marketing fixed media audio content to the
        trucking industry and a synergy with its audio business
        will give truckers enhanced access on the eHighwayman
        site.

        eHighwayman.com will provide Web-enabling services
        through a Virtual Private Network (VPN), which will be
        designed and deployed with the best of breed technology
        partners. This will allow Imark to provide its product
        and services in a two-way, secure environment to its
        customers.

        Strategies and Objectives for eHighwayman.com

        eHighwayman.com will target fleet operations, primarily
        in the U.S. and will provide truckers with critical
        information such as road conditions, weather forecasts,
        hazardous materials regulations, driver safety data,
        communications with fleet managers, message boards and
        chat rooms in addition to personal and entertainment
        content.

        eHighwayman.com will be a complete, one-stop portal
        that provides truckers with the latest hourly
        information and day-to-day updates. The site will
        enable truckers with real-time access and provide them
        with intelligence to specific changes that affect their
        business day.


         [Image]Audioeverywhere.com is in the beta development
                stage to deliver audio content on demand.

        Audioeverywhere.com is a functioning site that
        leverages Imark's existing business infrastructure,
        content and customer relationships while capturing
        additional value in the supply chain by avoiding the
        cost of physical distribution to the consumer. This
        model will provide access to content and the
        gratification of immediate delivery.

        Strategies and Objectives for Audioeverywhere.com

        Audioeverywhere.com will act as an "audio hub" for
        niche target markets, providing specific content to
        each market and will also supply audio to the different
        portals, which Imark will develop with its technology
        partners. The audio hub enables Imark to provide it's
        own content as well as others to customers through
        either hand held portable audio download players such
        as the Diamond Rio 500 and the RCA LYRA or through the
        recently announced iRadio from Motorola.


         [Image]DH Audio offers more than 1,400 audio titles on
                tape and CD.

        DH Audio provides “Books-on-Tape” to thousands of
        listeners and regularly posts a positive annual revenue
        growth rate. DH Audio has strategic alliances with
        Harlequin Enterprises and Bloomberg Press and is well
        represented in categories such as mystery, westerns,
        science fiction, romance, action adventure, humor,
        women's fiction, classics, and cast radio productions.

        Strategies and Objectives for DH Audio

        DH Audio consistently adds to its product line and
        offers its audio titles both in standard retail outlets
        and in unique, market-niche environments. Imark has
        established direct synergies between its DH Audio unit
        and all of its other business units in varying
        capacities. The company continually seeks to build on
        its audio library and take advantage of marketing its
        product-line through other Imark units.


         [Image]Animazing Entertainment Inc., is the owner of
                the licensed rights to
         The Swamp Critters of Lost Lagoon™.

        The key creator behind Animazing Entertainment is
        singer/songwriter/director Bobby Goldsboro. Mr.
        Goldsboro originated "The Swamp Critters of Lost
        Lagoon™" characters and musical TV series out of a
        search for wholesome, values-based children's
        entertainment. Imark has produced a total of 52 ½ hours
        of episodes, which air five times a week on the
        Inspirational Network reaching 30 million television
        households. A further 3.5 million households are
        reached as the series airs in both English and in
        Spanish on the Sky Angel Satellite Broadcasting
        Network.

        The show quickly gained a distinctive broad identity
        both because of its content and Mr. Goldboro's
        distinctive musical talents as song composer as well as
        writer and director for the series. The show was also
        awarded the Seal of Approval from the prestigious Dove
        Foundation, which identifies and promotes quality
        programming suitable for family viewing and was also
        awarded The Parents Choice Gold Seal for quality family
        content.

        Animazing Entertainment has also signed a licensing
        agreement with Jazzland Inc., a national-level,
        140-acre destination theme park developed by theme park
        giant Ogden Entertainment Inc. Jazzland opened in New
        Orleans on May 18, 2000. The Jazzland deal will build
        on the Swamp Critters brand recognition, as the
        characters will be interactive with the expected 1.8
        million park visitors per year.


        [Image]Corporate Strategies                      [Image]

        Approximately 90 percent of Imark's revenues are
        derived from the United States. Imark’s central
        marketing efforts are U.S. based and the company
        intends to apply for trading representation on a U.S.
        stock exchange.

        Imark's mission is dedicated to delivering its products
        at below-competition prices to audiences that are
        carefully defined and meticulously targeted. The
        company adopted a growth strategy last year that has
        established it’s positioning this year. Imark is poised
        to make use of the newest digital technologies in a
        manner that will maximize value and convenience to its
        various constituencies of customers while minimizing
        distribution costs to the company.


        [Image]Management & The Board of Directors       [Image]

        Imark’s management and Board of Directors offer an
        extensive and diverse background. The board consists of
        individuals with expertise in such fields as
        telecommunications, information technology and
        marketing. Brian Neill, President, CEO and Director,
        heads Imark Corporation.

        A native and resident of New Brunswick, Mr. Neill, one
        of the founders and former President and CEO of Star
        Choice Communications Inc., was instrumental in the
        development and growth of Star Choice Television
        Network into a nationwide satellite solutions company
        and a leading provider of direct-to-home television
        services in Canada. In 1998 Mr. Neill was nominated for
        the Atlantic Canada Entrepreneur of the Year. The award
        was in honor of his entrepreneurial skills in
        establishing Star Choice and his participation in
        building it into the successful venture it is today,
        with over 500,000 customers.


              Board of                Professional
              Directors              Qualifications
                               Partner in investment
              Peter Aitken     banking firm Brawley
                               Cathers and Chairman of
                               Aitken Lees Capital.
                               Counsel in the law firm
              Senator Jerry    Mindon Gross Grafstein &
              Grafstein        Greenstein and a Federal
                               Senator.
              Brian Neill      President & CEO of Imark.
                               President of Ridley
              Steve Ridley     International and
                               Executive Counsel of
                               Quixstar.
                               President of Counsel
              Derek Tennant    Development Services Inc.
                               and IQ Properties Inc.
                               Research Director of the
                               Centre for Media Sciences
              Nelson Thall     and former President of
                               the Marshall McLuhan
                               Center.
                               President of Geo. P.
                               Shafran & Associates, Vice
              George Shafran   Chairman of Heritage Bank
                               and founder of Multi
                               Listing Service.

        Safe Harbor Statement:
        Statements contained in this document, including those
        pertaining to estimates and related plans other than
        statements of historical fact, are forward-looking
        statements subject to a number of uncertainties that
        could cause actual results to differ materially from
        statements made.

        Disclaimer:
        StockUpTicks.com is a property of Market Pathways
        Financial Relations Incorporated (MP).  The
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar 16 15:42:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:42:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Junior AP
In-Reply-To: <200103162301.f2GN10D07354@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010316174204.5925y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Eric Cordian wrote:

> The AP is reporting that the three year old son of a police officer, in
> Clarkesdale, Mississippi, climbed into the back seat of the family truck
> while his off-duty father stopped for gas, picked up dad's pistol, aimed
> it at the gas station attendant, and shot him in the face.
> 
> The attendant, an unfortunate James Collins, 43, is in critical condition.
> 
> Remember, guns don't kill people, toddlers do.

I'd say daddy did.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar 16 15:45:29 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:45:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Did you notice
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010316174320.5925z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



In the FBI stats that came out the majority of police officers killed are
killed with their own gun? They'd probably been better served by a
stun-vest...

Perhaps we should take guns away from them, then those fine officers would
probably have lived longer.

If you can't trust a weapon to a individual, how can you trust it to a
group of individuals?

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar 16 17:27:36 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:27:36 -0600
Subject: The Register = /. & The Scientology RPG
Message-ID: <3AB2BD88.17F6689C@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17677.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Mar 16 20:45:59 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:45:59 -0800
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <F269MFaukyCKDkb9pPF00006ac9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010316204413.059063c0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 05:25 PM 3/11/01 -0600, you wrote:
>nah bill, platinum is 600 dollars an ounce, its price has shot up over the 
>past five years.
>
>Brent
>
>
>>From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart at pobox.com>
>>Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>>To: Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com>, cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
>>Subject: Re: CDR: Re: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
>>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:33:25 -0800
>>
>>At 06:16 PM 03/01/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>>Technology wise, I'm real keen on the Hydrogen Peroxide Catalyst engines,
>>>especially Platinum catalyst. Platinum is problematic, rare & expensive.
>>>Say 1 out of 1,000 potential hobbyist can afford it. Hydrogen Peroxide
>>>can at least theoretically be done in a garage lab, so we'll leave this
>>>1-1 for now.

No need for Pt  Ag does just fine and has been used for many/most 
H2O2-based engines.

steve




From david at takas.lt  Fri Mar 16 19:54:13 2001
From: david at takas.lt (David)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 04:54:13 +0100
Subject: Get 500MB free and sell your files online!
Message-ID: <MFBBIMBCCBJHMAENKNOGOEKNCCAA.david@takas.lt>


Hi there!

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making money while you
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 See you there, http://www.zden.com/Signup.asp?ID=81476&Email=

 Cheers,
 David




From david at takas.lt  Fri Mar 16 19:54:15 2001
From: david at takas.lt (David)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 04:54:15 +0100
Subject: Get 500MB free and sell your files online!
Message-ID: <MFBBIMBCCBJHMAENKNOGAEKOCCAA.david@takas.lt>


Hi there!

 I just signed up on Zden, Your Marketplace for Files!

 Zden is an exciting new place where you can purchase, sell, create and
store original digital files.
Additionally, when you sign up, you will get 500 MB of FREE online storage
space!
 And you have to hurry up, because this is only a limited offer!

 Click on http://www.zden.com/Signup.asp?ID=81476&Email= and that will be
it!

 Zden works very simply: you upload your original files to Zden public
catalogue, you set your price
and you will start earning Zees(proprietary token system). Yes! You will be
making money while you
sleep....zzzzzzzzzzzzz

 See you there, http://www.zden.com/Signup.asp?ID=81476&Email=

 Cheers,
 David




From ph_adams22 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 05:39:45 2001
From: ph_adams22 at yahoo.com (ph_adams22 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 05:39:45
Subject: It's Your Turn !
Message-ID: <734.761995.255392@serv.mail.com>


AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months right from 
your home !! 
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the 
letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the 
popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news 
program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of 
this program described below, to see if it really can make people 
money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was 
legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are 
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=================================================== 
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far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made 
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anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 
===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ====== 
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If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months 
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FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL 
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=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ===== 
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IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed 
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they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. 
Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then 
nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than 
what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. 
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 
1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this 
advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in 
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2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 
PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 
========================================================== 
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, 
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Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. 
To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 
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There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 
METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
========================================================== 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
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Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a 
total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded 
with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. 
Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for 
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total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 
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Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 
3..... $5,000 + 4 .... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand 
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CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 
========================================================= 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE 
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half 
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more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide 
and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and 
more! 
METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
======================================================= 
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are 
hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads 
on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly 
suggest you start with Method # 1 and dd METHOD # 2 as you go 
along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them 
the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day 
service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they 
send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt 
because they can not advertise until they receivethe report. 
=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== 
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: 
Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY ONLY!!) for each Report. 
Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at 
least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write 
the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL 
ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 
PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==================================================== 
REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net" Order Report #1 from: 

B. McDonald
Suite 409
1500 Bank St
Ottawa, ON
K1H 1B8
Canada
___________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the 
Net" Order Report # 2 from: 

T. Richardson
P.O. Box 753
Richland, MO. 65556
USA 
____________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net" 
Order Report # 3 from : 

C.J. Kalata 
P.O. Box 130157 
Roseville, MN 55113
USA 
____________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" 
Order Report # 4 from:

R. B. 
Box. 21115, 
Grande Prairie 
Alberta, T8V-6W7 
Canada 
____________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free" 
Order Report # 5 from: 

B. Taylor 
P.O.Box 26001 
Fredericton, N.B. 
E3A 5V8 
Canada
_____________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 
=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 
2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 
=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that 
you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did 
not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 
=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU 
CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the 
cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: 
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in 
front of a Different report. 
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE 
INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START 
THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. 
There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this 
business !!! 
====================================================== 
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS 
PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you 
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and 
JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next 
few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the 
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It 
works exceedingly well as it is now. 
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have 
put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 
..........# 5 
as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send 
out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of 
them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential 
customers you will reach. 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials 
and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO 
YOU NOW ! 
============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ 
"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am 
an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty 
good money. When I received this program I grumbled to 
Jodyaboutreceiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole 
thing,spoutingmy knowledge of the population and percentages 
involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored 
my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with 
both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the 
old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, 
the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 
responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 
147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined 
Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
====================================================== 
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make 
up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I 
am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that 
there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at 
least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my 
medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made 
$319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal 
is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't 
a better investment with a faster return and so big." 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
======================================================= 
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I 
wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no 
idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I 
was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then 
it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made 
more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 
22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
======================================================= 
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money 
with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions 
carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My 
first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of third month my 
total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to 
internet.". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
======================================================= 
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 
'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! 
======================================================= 
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, 
contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, 
Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, 
Washington, D.C. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From bear at sonic.net  Sat Mar 17 08:20:08 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 08:20:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide
 After Christian Taunts.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103171312500.10196-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103170813150.7191-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:


>leitmotif to satanistic themes. Similarly a Goth attire and a suitable
>amount of group aggression will likely be as efficient on a child with a
>Christian fundamental worldview as a direct threat. And as time goes by,

Goth attire??  You mean short robes under leather armor and ring mail?
And why should that be frightening to Christians, anyway? Rome was at 
the height of the *Pagan* empire when the Goths sacked it.... I'm betting 
the early Christians around Rome at the time probably joined in gleefully.

				Bear





From saveemc316 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 08:30:47 2001
From: saveemc316 at yahoo.com (saveemc316 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 08:30:47
Subject: Best bizop seekers e-mail leads!
Message-ID: <200103171756.CAA00036@kice3.kice.re.kr>


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_______________________________________________________________
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_________________________________________________________________
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From bear at sonic.net  Sat Mar 17 08:44:27 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 08:44:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010317085205.5925L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103170824550.7191-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>
>900MHz packet (<$100/site) coupled with Plan 9 is the base you want to
>start from using current tech. It will require updating firewall software
>so that it also handles bandwidth throttling and fail-over routing.


I've looked at that, but I'm unsure about it...  the problem is that 
if not enough people have it you're out of range - but if too many 
people have it, you're choked for bandwidth and get interference 
problems.  

With a range of a few hundred feet to a few miles, routing can also 
become problematic. 

It would be nice though: a $100 'packet box' for each station, that 
allows you to set up independent IP connections with your neighbors. 
If you can get them common enough, it would be impossible to cut 
someone off by cutting their ISP access -- 'cause out in the wild, 
a packet is a packet is a packet, and if all the stations run IP 
protocol, even if every ISP in the world rejects a packet, it could 
still make its way across any continent in short hops from station 
to station. 

And this is not just an anti-censorship thing, either; this is 
more properly a tool for 24/7 uptime for people who can't afford 
t3's and can't get PacBell's attention to fix their damn line in 
the first minute after it goes down. I can picture that sales 
pitch appealing to a lot of home businesses who get cut off from 
their DSL connection for a week at a time while PacBell pulls its 
head out of its collective ass. Or Cinci Bell, or Southern Bell, 
or NTT, or Deutsche Telecomm, or whoever serves their area. 

I like it.  Every station an ISP. 

				Bear






From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 17 06:53:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 08:53:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103160808010.15473-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010317085205.5925L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



900MHz packet (<$100/site) coupled with Plan 9 is the base you want to
start from using current tech. It will require updating firewall software
so that it also handles bandwidth throttling and fail-over routing.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> In the long run, I don't think the machinery of freedom is going 
> to work very well until most of the nodes on the internet have 
> at least three or four different routes to the internet.  

> Unfortunately, extra phone lines and nailed-up connections 
> cost money, and at that point they'd just start going for the 
> phone companies instead of the ISP's anyway.  The benefit is 
> that  common carrier anti-censorship laws might be a little 
> stronger with phone lines.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Mar 17 09:48:06 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:48:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103170824550.7191-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010317114208.5925U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



It's important to recognize some points,

-	It's a backup system, consider bad weather and emergency
	services. CB radio should be broadened to allow this on
	designated channels for the same sort of reasons.

-	Most people wouldn't be sending heavy packets all the time.

-	It would be useful for large audience broadcast (say a church
	wishing to broadcast voice_over_IP to its immediate neighborhood)

-	Your kids could have a 'neighborhood chat room'.

-	Some sort of encryption is required. (Which will be a lot
	easier sell after the IR search thing is found
	unconstitutional)

-	Maxim is making a 900MHz chip that supports 1Mb/s. Using burst
	and spread spectrum I suspect that a network with suitable
	bandwidth and routing rules couldn't generate more bits than
	it could handle with respect to distance between sites.

On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >900MHz packet (<$100/site) coupled with Plan 9 is the base you want to
> >start from using current tech. It will require updating firewall software
> >so that it also handles bandwidth throttling and fail-over routing.
 
> I've looked at that, but I'm unsure about it...  the problem is that 
> if not enough people have it you're out of range - but if too many 
> people have it, you're choked for bandwidth and get interference 
> problems.  
> 
> With a range of a few hundred feet to a few miles, routing can also 
> become problematic. 
> 
> It would be nice though: a $100 'packet box' for each station, that 
> allows you to set up independent IP connections with your neighbors. 
> If you can get them common enough, it would be impossible to cut 
> someone off by cutting their ISP access -- 'cause out in the wild, 
> a packet is a packet is a packet, and if all the stations run IP 
> protocol, even if every ISP in the world rejects a packet, it could 
> still make its way across any continent in short hops from station 
> to station. 
> 
> And this is not just an anti-censorship thing, either; this is 
> more properly a tool for 24/7 uptime for people who can't afford 
> t3's and can't get PacBell's attention to fix their damn line in 
> the first minute after it goes down. I can picture that sales 
> pitch appealing to a lot of home businesses who get cut off from 
> their DSL connection for a week at a time while PacBell pulls its 
> head out of its collective ass. Or Cinci Bell, or Southern Bell, 
> or NTT, or Deutsche Telecomm, or whoever serves their area. 
> 
> I like it.  Every station an ISP. 

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Mar 17 14:59:48 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:59:48 -1000
Subject: rubberhose?
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010317124522.00d279c0@flex.com>


I heard this product advocated on another list, a search reveals two
mentions of it on this list, but there was no commentary regarding
its' efficacy/effectiveness.  Has anyone any experience with it?

http://www.rubberhose.org/

Reese

          Oh, fuck! You did it just like i told you to!




From freematt at coil.com  Sat Mar 17 10:01:23 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:01:23 -0500
Subject: Book Review: REPUBLIC.COM Reviewed By Matthew Gaylor
In-Reply-To: <v04220806b6d76d7ce9e7@[198.4.94.204]>
References: <v04220806b6d76d7ce9e7@[198.4.94.204]>
Message-ID: <v04220803b6d956d36c24@[198.4.94.204]>


An important distinction is that the filtering that Sunstein is
talking about is a what an individual or group does when they decide
what to view.  This is different than filtering software "censorware"
that the state uses to control who gets access to what information,
as used in the public schools and libraries.

What Sunstein is talking about is adding to the process state
mandated links and hyperlinks to sites with opposing viewpoints and
the creation of a permanently viewable link to a PBS equivalent
website (Public.Net).

So presumably in order to reduce radicalism and group polarization
which he considers a danger to democracy, a website run by such
organizations such as the National Rifle Association will be required
by law (If not done voluntarily) to add links to groups such as
Handgun Control, Inc.  Because in Sunstein's words 'FREE SPEECH IS
NOT AN ABSOLUTE".

Regards,  Matt-

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From decoy at iki.fi  Sat Mar 17 03:49:29 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:49:29 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After
  Christian Taunts.
In-Reply-To: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPEEOCCKAA.andrew@security.za.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103171312500.10196-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >


On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Andrew Alston wrote:

>The use of hymns to impose psychological tramour on someone else cannot
>indict the hymns themselves, that is total and utter bullshit, is that not
>the same as saying that when someone uses a steak knife to stab someone, the
>person who did the stabbing is responsible as well as the knife?  Total
>utter crap.

Perhaps. On the other hand, it is clear that people attach connotations to
expression based on their experience of where that expression is used. Think
of Carmina Burana after it was used in the Omen, or the associations carried
by heavy metal. E.g. both sorts of music can be used in a movie as a
leitmotif to satanistic themes. Similarly a Goth attire and a suitable
amount of group aggression will likely be as efficient on a child with a
Christian fundamental worldview as a direct threat. And as time goes by,
such connotations may well subsume the original meaning. A good example of
this is what being a skinhead is today and was in the sixties.

If the community at large embraces religious intolerance, Christian chant
may well be the ultimate threat to a young Wicca. If it has a significant
part in an incident leading to teenage suicide, this lends credibility to
the claim that what in other communities might be a legitimate form of
religious self-expression, is in this one used to taunt the misfit. This
gives Christianity the bad face the writer talks about, and gives the
majority an incentive to silence the story.

>They claim persecution due to belief, but at the same time Ive been around
>wiccans, and I would be very very interested to know just how much pushing
>of her beliefs she did on other people, because Ive heard the ridicule of
>Christians that come out of wiccan mouths.

While the few Wiccas I know are introverted enough not to even try. 'Guess
they come in all shapes and sizes, like people tend to.

>but Im interested to hear what she did to incite this, because I seriously
>doubt kids singing hymns at her without either provocation from her or
>alternatively pushing from their teachers/parents.

Huh? Apparently you've never had the treatment; children can be intolerant
as hell. Primary school gave me the most frightening examples of herd
behavior I've *ever* seen.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From decoy at iki.fi  Sat Mar 17 03:49:29 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:49:29 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After
 Christian Taunts.
In-Reply-To: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPEEOCCKAA.andrew@security.za.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103171312500.10196-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Andrew Alston wrote:

>The use of hymns to impose psychological tramour on someone else cannot
>indict the hymns themselves, that is total and utter bullshit, is that not
>the same as saying that when someone uses a steak knife to stab someone, the
>person who did the stabbing is responsible as well as the knife?  Total
>utter crap.

Perhaps. On the other hand, it is clear that people attach connotations to
expression based on their experience of where that expression is used. Think
of Carmina Burana after it was used in the Omen, or the associations carried
by heavy metal. E.g. both sorts of music can be used in a movie as a
leitmotif to satanistic themes. Similarly a Goth attire and a suitable
amount of group aggression will likely be as efficient on a child with a
Christian fundamental worldview as a direct threat. And as time goes by,
such connotations may well subsume the original meaning. A good example of
this is what being a skinhead is today and was in the sixties.

If the community at large embraces religious intolerance, Christian chant
may well be the ultimate threat to a young Wicca. If it has a significant
part in an incident leading to teenage suicide, this lends credibility to
the claim that what in other communities might be a legitimate form of
religious self-expression, is in this one used to taunt the misfit. This
gives Christianity the bad face the writer talks about, and gives the
majority an incentive to silence the story.

>They claim persecution due to belief, but at the same time Ive been around
>wiccans, and I would be very very interested to know just how much pushing
>of her beliefs she did on other people, because Ive heard the ridicule of
>Christians that come out of wiccan mouths.

While the few Wiccas I know are introverted enough not to even try. 'Guess
they come in all shapes and sizes, like people tend to.

>but Im interested to hear what she did to incite this, because I seriously
>doubt kids singing hymns at her without either provocation from her or
>alternatively pushing from their teachers/parents.

Huh? Apparently you've never had the treatment; children can be intolerant
as hell. Primary school gave me the most frightening examples of herd
behavior I've *ever* seen.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 17 14:23:25 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:23:25 -0800
Subject: Shooting down 'Bandit Satellites'
In-Reply-To: <HHFCIFDJNJFBBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010317142221.00a47ca0@idiom.com>


At 07:11 PM 03/11/2001 -0500, Jim Windle wrote:
>According to Friday's Wall Street Journal spot platinum last closed at 
>$588 per ounce and is up from $473 per ounce one year ago.
>--
>
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:25:17   Brent Mattis wrote:
> >
> >nah bill, platinum is 600 dollars an ounce, its price has shot up over the
> >past five years.


Interesting - wish gold and silver would do the same :-)

Probably either increased industrial use or reduced mining...





From allyn at well.com  Sat Mar 17 14:58:00 2001
From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:58:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After
 Christian Taunts.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103170813150.7191-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103171456020.24508-100000@well.com>




On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> 
> 
> >leitmotif to satanistic themes. Similarly a Goth attire and a suitable
> >amount of group aggression will likely be as efficient on a child with a
> >Christian fundamental worldview as a direct threat. And as time goes by,
> 

Or how about a man wearing a pair of briefs under a wedding dress (and
full length veil) made out of crystal clear plastic. 

You think I am kidding? I saw it at a private party. I thought it looked
great! I suggested to him to wear it at gay pride.






From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Mar 17 15:15:28 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:15:28 -0800
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103170824550.7191-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010317085205.5925L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010317151528.007c6e20@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:44 AM 3/17/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>I like it.  Every station an ISP. 
>

There are amazing technical things you can do *if* you can get
every node to cooperate (and spend power and compute time).

You could drop military sensors that talked to each other and route
info back to the closer edge of the area you monitor.

You could probably do neat things, in some circumstances, with cell phones
if your cell phone
could route or relay others' calls.

In the old Fidonet/uucp world this is just adding an RF i/f.  Or
packet-switched radio? In today's world you'd have to have ISPs that let
you do this if you routed others' packets 
through them.

And of course, Gnutella/Process Tree/etc...










.......


 






  







From contactme_scott at KASI.yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 13:35:28 2001
From: contactme_scott at KASI.yahoo.com (contactme_scott at KASI.yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:35:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: THIS IS ABOUT MONEY..PAY ATTENTION! -SHES
Message-ID: <200103172135.f2HLZSw11305@tot-tk.proxy.aol.com>


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_______________________________________________________________
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From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Mar 17 16:41:15 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:41:15 -0800
Subject: What is the recommended variant of PGP.
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010317163554.021d9008@shell11.ba.best.com>


Although I (naturally biased) prefer to use Cypto Kng, I recently needed to 
use pgp, so I decided to upgrade.

I went to PGP.com.  Their freeware PGP is fourteen megabytes of mystery code.


Something that big and mysterious does not make me feel secure.  My current 
pgp.exe is 250K, for which I have source code, source code that I have 
looked at.  The program performs functions that I understand, in ways that 
I understand.

What is the recommended PGP?




From alan at clueserver.org  Sat Mar 17 17:45:50 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:45:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: What is the recommended variant of PGP.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010317163554.021d9008@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103171743250.2885-100000@clueserver.org>


Gnu Privacy Guard is an Open Source PGP replacement.

http://www.gnupg.org/ is the main site for the code.

I have not examined interoperability with older versions of PGP though.
(I will be doing that soon though.)

On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, James A. Donald wrote:

> Although I (naturally biased) prefer to use Cypto Kng, I recently needed to 
> use pgp, so I decided to upgrade.
> 
> I went to PGP.com.  Their freeware PGP is fourteen megabytes of mystery code.
> 
> 
> Something that big and mysterious does not make me feel secure.  My current 
> pgp.exe is 250K, for which I have source code, source code that I have 
> looked at.  The program performs functions that I understand, in ways that 
> I understand.
> 
> What is the recommended PGP?
> 
> 

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From agabio at mail.loudpages.com  Sat Mar 17 06:39:47 2001
From: agabio at mail.loudpages.com (agabio at mail.loudpages.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:39:47 +0500
Subject: BlackJack Anyone????
Message-ID: <1t1v8sk0f0.2a571m@sdididofi.loudpages.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 6208 bytes
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URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/20010317/0d619190/attachment.txt>

From gonewsletters at help.go.com  Sat Mar 17 20:41:04 2001
From: gonewsletters at help.go.com (GO.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:41:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GO.com Service Notification
Message-ID: <20010318044104.D4ADB512E@mrelay7.starwave.com>


Dear Parent of tom,

We are happy to inform you that the new, streamlined version of 
GO.com is now live. Please continue to visit GO.com each day for 
direct access to our family of sites*, your GO.com email account, 
and search provided by GoTo.

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Answers to questions you may have about your other favorite GO.com 
features are available on a special GO.com frequently asked questions 
(FAQ) page. Please click on the following link for more information: 

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Thank you for your continued support of GO.com.


GO.com Member Services

* Our Family of Sites include:  ABC.com, ABCNews.com, Disney.com, 
ESPN.com, Family.com, Movies.com, Mr. Showbiz and Wall of Sound.


====================================================================
To unsubscribe from any future mailings, please reply to this email 
and include the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.




From dave at technopagan.org  Sat Mar 17 20:23:22 2001
From: dave at technopagan.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:23:22 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: What is the recommended variant of PGP.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103171743250.2885-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103180422190.22033-100000@bureau42.technopag
  an.org>


On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:

> Gnu Privacy Guard is an Open Source PGP replacement.
>
> I have not examined interoperability with older versions of PGP though.
> (I will be doing that soon though.)

The short version is this: GPG will work more-or-less transparently with
PGP 5.x and 6.x, at least for all versions I've played with (most of 'em).
It won't play nicely with PGP 2.6.x (or, AFAIK, any older version).

...dave




From dave at technopagan.org  Sat Mar 17 20:23:22 2001
From: dave at technopagan.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:23:22 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: What is the recommended variant of PGP.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103171743250.2885-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103180422190.22033-100000@bureau42.technopagan.org>


On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:

> Gnu Privacy Guard is an Open Source PGP replacement.
>
> I have not examined interoperability with older versions of PGP though.
> (I will be doing that soon though.)

The short version is this: GPG will work more-or-less transparently with
PGP 5.x and 6.x, at least for all versions I've played with (most of 'em).
It won't play nicely with PGP 2.6.x (or, AFAIK, any older version).

...dave




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Mar 18 06:44:03 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 08:44:03 -0600
Subject: THE SUNDAY TIMES: WORLD NEWS - Spielberg & Lincoln
Message-ID: <3AB4C9B3.89FCBD04@ssz.com>


http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/03/18/stifgnusa02004.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bear at sonic.net  Sun Mar 18 10:02:08 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:02:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <OE26HTtt0zb8vq3UhQC000015ef@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103181000110.19907-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, chi wrote:

>please sent me the correct password and id of the following address
>      sweetriddhi04 at yahoo.com
>        at the following address krunal5112 at hotmail.com

Get real.  If you were actually Chi, you'd already know. 
Your feet are nowhere near big enough to fill her shoes, 
so get out. 

				Bear




From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Sun Mar 18 07:25:52 2001
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:25:52 -0500
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010317085205.5925L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AB4D380.745BEE8C@crosswinds.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 900MHz packet (<$100/site) coupled with Plan 9 is the base you want to
> start from using current tech. 


Microwave networking providers price vary considerably, and a number of
ISPs are reluctant to unroll this stuff due to implementation pricing.

Can anyone recommend good nice, and inexpensive packet radio LAN
technology ? I've heard that breezecom is pretty nice, what do you guys
think ?

How secure are the spread spectrum modulation schemes on these things
anyway ?




From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Sun Mar 18 07:29:16 2001
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:29:16 -0500
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide AfterChristian 
 Taunts.
References: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103171312500.10196-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
	  >
Message-ID: <3AB4D44C.7D8A22EE@crosswinds.net>




Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> Perhaps. On the other hand, it is clear that people attach connotations to
> expression based on their experience of where that expression is used. Think
> of Carmina Burana after it was used in the Omen, 

	Actually, as far as I know, the Carmina Burana wasn't really used in
the Omen to my knowledge, though the main composition in the film, "Ave
Satani" sounded an awful lot like parts of the Carmina Burana :-)

> leitmotif to satanistic themes. Similarly a Goth attire and a suitable
> amount of group aggression will likely be as efficient on a child with a
> Christian fundamental worldview as a direct threat. 

	Hence the efficacy of Marliyn Manson's posturing in scaring the
bejeebers out of conservative Christian authorities.




From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Sun Mar 18 07:31:43 2001
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:31:43 -0500
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103160808010.15473-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3AB4D4DF.7BE82C04@crosswinds.net>




Ray Dillinger wrote:
> In the long run, I don't think the machinery of freedom is going
> to work very well until most of the nodes on the internet have
> at least three or four different routes to the internet.

	On that note, what's the most inexpensive way of becoming trully multi
homed, 
and how much of a pain is it to set up BGP ? What are the requirements
for getting an ASN number ?  Can a smaller ISP pull this off ?  This is
a serious question, I can't find a whole lot of information on this.




From adam at cypherspace.org  Sun Mar 18 08:34:28 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:34:28 -0400
Subject: What is the recommended variant of PGP.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103180422190.22033-100000@bureau42.technopag an.org>; from David E. Smith on Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:23:22AM +0000
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103171743250.2885-100000@clueserver.org> <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103180422190.22033-100000@bureau42.technopag an.org>
Message-ID: <20010318123428.A76489@cypherpunks.ai>


I use pgp6.5.8 - it has a single command line program (pgp5.x had a
separate program for key management), and it has more pgp2.x like
command line options.

I would use gnuPG as the code is cleaner, more readable and smaller
but they're still refusing to include IDEA by default, even though
the IDEA license allows free non-commercial use.  (They added in RSA
as default since the RSA patent expired, but that's almost useless
without IDEA, as you still can't talk to pgp2.x).  There is an IDEA
module I think, so I suppose the best situation would be to add in
the IDEA module to gnuPG and use it.

Adam

On Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:23:22AM +0000, David E. Smith wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> > Gnu Privacy Guard is an Open Source PGP replacement.
> >
> > I have not examined interoperability with older versions of PGP though.
> > (I will be doing that soon though.)
> 
> The short version is this: GPG will work more-or-less transparently with
> PGP 5.x and 6.x, at least for all versions I've played with (most of 'em).
> It won't play nicely with PGP 2.6.x (or, AFAIK, any older version).
> 
> ...dave
> 




From protectingchildren at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 12:53:31 2001
From: protectingchildren at hotmail.com (Child Advocate)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:53:31 -0800
Subject: http://www.shadow-net.com/
Message-ID: <F144H2cv0aGltFBNlJb00003729@hotmail.com>


Dear Joe,
   Thank you for interest in joining Better A Millstone. To receive an 
application send a request to the following: applyforbam at hotmail.com
along with your primary e-mail address and one will be sent to you.
   I'm afraid that you should not celebrate to much because even as I am 
writing this to you boychat is trying to get reestablished so our work is 
never done. We must be ever vigilant to protect our children from these 
perps who prey on our greatest resource - our children.
   If you were watching Americas Most Wanted last night, there is a Dutch 
pedophile group that is trying to protect Erik Rosser who is wanted by the 
FBI on charges of molesting his girl friends daughter. He has been on the 
run out of the country and he is still committing unspeakable acts against 
children in Spain.
   I ask you to keep your eyes open when you are on the internet for any 
forms of child pronorgraphy and report the websites to us immediately. You 
may reach us at the address you used or you may contact me at the address 
below. We thank you for assisting us in protecting our children. Feel free 
to cantact us any time.

Sincerely,
Mike Terry, Assistant Executive Director, Better A Millstone, Inc.
E-Mail: mterry_bam at hotmail.com
Phone & Voice Mail: 757-478-3534
Fax: 757-430-9086
Better A Millstone is an An I.R.S. 501 (c)(3) Tax Exempt Organization
>>>>>>>>The Internet Eyes & Ears for Law Enforcement<<<<<<<<
(BAM's I.R.S. Number:  77-0504772 - Receipts Sent for Contributions)
484-B Washington Street, #220, Monterey, California  93940 - U.S.A.
Toll Free Voice Mail Pager in the U.S.:  1-800-971-7818
Voice Mail Pager from Other Countries:  area code 831, 887-3362
Main Web Page:  <http://www.shadow-net.com>
Help Kids Protect Kids:  <http://www.shadow-net.com/forkids.html>


----Original Message Follows----
From: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net (Joe Cypherpunk)
To: BAM2001 at mail.com
Subject: http://www.shadow-net.com/
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:36:41 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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11:36:41 -0800
>From web at timber20.timberland.lib.wa.us Sun Mar 18 11:56:00 2001
X-URL: http://www.shadow-net.com/
X-Mailer: Lynx, Version 2.8.3rel.1
Message-ID: <20010318193641.AAA18310+3970112 at timber20.timberland.lib.wa.us>

Dear Mr. Echols,

Congratulations on finally putting those awful BoyChat people
out of business.  My whole family feels safer now that those
sick pedophiles no longer have a place to gather and exchange
information on how to molest children.

I hadn't realized, until I read the recent issue of Newsweek,
how pedophiles had multiplied and now threaten almost everything
we hold sacred.

I'd appreciate it if you could send me information on your
organization, and on how I can help put other pedophiles sites
out of business like you did with BoyChat.  I have a little
money saved up, and I can think of no better cause to spend it
on.

God Bless you Mr. Echols, for the wonderful work you are doing
to protect our children, and may the Lord guide you in bringing
us the final solution to the pedophile problem.

Sincerely yours,
Joe Cypherpunk




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Mar 18 13:39:49 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:39:49 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Illegal Prime Number Unzips to DeCSS
Message-ID: <3AB52B25.1AB44875@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/17/1639250.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From lenny8 at qatarmail.com  Sun Mar 18 17:17:50 2001
From: lenny8 at qatarmail.com (lenny8 at qatarmail.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:17:50 -0800
Subject: The perfect solution                         6056
Message-ID: <000004246aa6$00006bfc$000017a8@mailhost.com>

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From protectingchildren at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 21:23:01 2001
From: protectingchildren at hotmail.com (Child Advocate)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 21:23:01 -0800
Subject: http://www.shadow-net.com/
Message-ID: <F39c3DzXDMBxY2ER3SA00003e97@hotmail.com>


Dear Joe,
As far as Erik Rosser in concerned, he made his mark in Tailand and Taiwan. 
He took videos with him having sex with preteen girls, some as young as 8 or 
9. Yahoo clubs is a haven for hosting club that cater to pedophiles wishing 
to swap pictures of child porn. All you need to do is become a member using 
a false e-mail address (I suggest you set one up through hotmail. Yes this 
is totally legal) so you can gather information on those clubs. If you do 
this, keep track og the URL's of the clubs and turn this information over to 
us so we can check these clubs out and get those perps busted. As soon as 
you receive your application, fill it out and return it to the address 
provided in the e-mail you receive. If I may ask, do you have a background 
working with children and if so, what do you do? We look foward to receiving 
your application. If your application is approved, (in this business, we 
must check out all new members throughly. This is for all concerned) you 
will receive an e-mail from Mr. Echols giving you useful and valuable 
information on how to carry out your work with BAM. You will also be given 
the names of of three Assistant Executive Directors, along with Mr. Echols, 
are experienced with working with new members. All of use are glad to work 
with new members until they get their "feet wet" and can handle being on 
their own. Please feel free to contact me at the address below or at the 
address you just used if you have any more questions.

Mike Terry, Assistant Executive Director, Better A Millstone, Inc.
E-Mail Address: <mterry_bam at hotmail.com>
Cell Phone and Voice Mail: 757-478-3534
Fax: 757-430-9086
Cell Phone Text Message: 7574783534 at tms@suncom.com

Better A Millstone is an An I.R.S. 501 (c)(3) Tax Exempt Organization
>>>>>>>>The Internet Eyes & Ears for Law Enforcement<<<<<<<<
(BAM's I.R.S. Number:  77-0504772 - Receipts Sent for Contributions)
484-B Washington Street, #220, Monterey, California  93940 - U.S.A.
Toll Free Voice Mail Pager in the U.S.:  1-800-971-7818
Voice Mail Pager from Other Countries:  area code 831, 887-3362
Main Web Page:  <http://www.shadow-net.com>
Help Kids Protect Kids:  <http://www.shadow-net.com/forkids.html>



----Original Message Follows----
From: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net (Joe Cypherpunk)
To: BAM2001 at mail.com
Subject: Re: http://www.shadow-net.com/
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:38:36 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>From web at timber20.timberland.lib.wa.us Sun Mar 18 14:46:35 2001
X-URL: http://www.shadow-net.com/
X-Mailer: Lynx, Version 2.8.3rel.1
Message-ID: <20010318223836.AAA18441+3970112 at timber20.timberland.lib.wa.us>

Dear Mr. Terry,

Thank-you for responding so quickly to my earlier email.

It is disheartening to learn that BoyChat is trying to reestablish
itself.  Our children are indeed, as you said, out greatest resource,
and no effort is too great to prevent them from being preyed upon
by perps.

I did have one question, which I forgot to include in my earlier
message, however.  I read a message on another chat board saying
that BoyChat was down from a "Massive DDoS Attack."  What kind of
attack is that, and is it something BAM will teach me when I join
so that I can make pedophile sites go down too?

I didn't catch America's Most Wanted last night, but it makes me
physically ill to think of the unspeakable acts Mr. Rosser is doing
to the children in Spain.

I haven't see any child pronorgraphy on the Web yet.  But there is
lots of adult pornography which opens windows in my browser faster
than I can close them and then I have to reboot.

God Bless you and Mr. Echols, and the wonderful work you are doing.

Sincerely yours,
Joe Cypherpunk




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From galaxy at ucky.com  Sun Mar 18 22:32:59 2001
From: galaxy at ucky.com (galaxy at ucky.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 22:32:59
Subject: 1 Professional mailing-lists! You will be surpriced1
Message-ID: <42.493797.374829@unknown>

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From MortgageQuotes4U at aol.com  Sun Mar 18 19:37:13 2001
From: MortgageQuotes4U at aol.com (MortgageQuotes4U at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 22:37:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Got Mortgage Debt? - 6% Fixed Rate Free Instant Quote!!!
Message-ID: <200103190337.WAA18663327@www1409.sanjose14-verio.com>



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From applyforbam at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 22:47:05 2001
From: applyforbam at hotmail.com (BAM ChildAdvocates)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 22:47:05 -0800
Subject: Information about Becoming A Member of Better A Millstone
Message-ID: <F133nx8dyDd3OJXsNQp0000279e@hotmail.com>


Dear "Joe Cypherpunk":


Thank you very much for your email and your kind words!

However, I have to stress to you that no member of Better A Millstone was 
responsible for taking down BoyChat, Girl Chat, and their domain, 
"ivan.net", and we have to be very careful that we are not connected with 
such illegal activity.

Now, whereas we are happy that BoyChat and Girl Chat are indeed down, as a 
legal organization that has a good relationship with law enforcement 
agencies around the world, we can not be associated with the illegal 
activities of hackers, no mater how worth of being shut down the specific 
web sites are.

All we a Better A Millstone do is provide information and intelligence about 
child sex predators, child pornographers, and their web sites by emails and 
on our web pages...and if someone happens to read this material and then get 
angry enough to take on of their web sites down, then we were simply the 
messenger.

I hope that you understand!

Now, if you would like to join us in working legally to deal with the child 
sex predators and child pornographers and their web sites, please read this 
email and the application email that I will send to you separately.

Membership in Better A Millstone--BAM for short--is open to anyone age 18 
and up who has basic Internet expertise and access and who does not have any 
felony or misdemeanor convictions involving children.

To familiarize yourself with BAM and what we do, please go to BAM's main web 
page at <http://www.shadow-net.com>.  Then go to the menu of BAM's other web 
pages at the bottom of that page and click on them to visit them and learn 
as much as you can about Better A Millstone and the information that we have 
available on the Internet and what we do.

Please understand that as a member of BAM you will be helping to protect 
children by spending part of your life gathering intelligence and 
information about child sex predators and child pornographers who are 
engaged in ingratiating themselves to innocent and unwitting children for 
the purpose of sexually assaulting and photographing them by acting as "The 
Internet Eyes & Ears for Law Enforcement".

You will be expected to spend a minimum of three hours a week lurking on the 
Internet as a child advocate and to be proactive in going on the Internet 
and gathering intelligence and information about suspected child sex 
predators and child pornographers and providing same to the appropriate law 
enforcement agencies (i.e., the specific law enforcement agencies within 
whose jurisdictions the child sex predators and child pornographers are 
operating, such as U.S. Customs for virtually ALL Internet sex crimes 
involving children as well as state and local police departments where these 
perpetrators are operating).

And you will be expected to not only initiate contact with these law 
enforcement agencies but also to follow up with them to see that they do 
indeed take your information seriously and take action.  And if you are not 
satisfied that they are doing what you think they should do to protect 
children, you are asked to contact other members of BAM for assistance.

Further, please understand that everyone who applies to become a volunteer 
member of Better A Millstone must go to their local police or other law 
enforcement agency to have their identification verified and a criminal 
background check completed and submitted to Better A Millstone.  Now, if you 
still wish to apply to become a member of Better A Millstone, please fill 
out and return the online application which has been sent to you separately.

Once you have been accepted as a member of BAM, you will be given 
instructions and information via e-mail to help you learn what to do.
And you will be provided with e-mail addresses to contact seasoned members 
of BAM to help you learn how to do your work.

Once you feel confident about what you have been taught, you will be free to 
apply your interests and talents to help protect children on the Internet 
independent of someone telling you what you must or must not do.  But, for 
your own safety as well as to uphold the principles of BAM, you will be 
expected to abide by a few simple rules:

(1) Never, ever, download and save child pornography!

(2) Always write down and save the URL (i.e., Internet address) of web sites 
with such material!

(3) Never, ever, pose as an adult or teenager seeking sex with a child or 
child pornography!

(4) Always keep detailed records of anyone who asks this of you (i.e., their 
e-mail address, IRC number, ICQ number, etc.).

After filling out and returning the On-Line Application for Better A 
Millstone (which is being sent to you as a separate e-mail) and being 
accepted as a member of BAM, you will receive a detailed e-mail to help you 
learn the ropes so that you can be an effective Internet child advocate.

Looking forward to receiving your on-line application,

I remain,

Most sincerely yours,

Mike Echols, Founder & Executive Director, Better A Millstone, Inc.
>>>>>>>>"The Internet Eyes & Ears for Law Enforcement"<<<<<<<<
484-B Washington Street, #220, Monterey, California 93940  U.S.A.
Toll Free Voice Mail in the U.S.:  1-800-971-7818
Voice Mail from Other Countries:  area code 831-887-3362

Better A Millstone's Main Web Page: <http://www.shadow-net.com>
Help Kids Protect Themselves: <http://www.shadow-net.com/forkids.html>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From applyforbam at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 22:49:54 2001
From: applyforbam at hotmail.com (BAM ChildAdvocates)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 22:49:54 -0800
Subject: On-Line Application for Better A Millstone
Message-ID: <F270mWO2IskOuN9JVxw0000408e@hotmail.com>



From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Mar 18 21:32:12 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:32:12 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | The "Omega Number" & Foundations of Math
Message-ID: <3AB599DC.25F5DF5D@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/18/1918225.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Mar 19 01:16:29 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 04:16:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: One of Jim Bell's former hobbies.
Message-ID: <200103190916.EAA06881@www1.aa.psiweb.com>


Tim May, Elder Statesdroid of Cypherpunks, quoted someone else:
#    Jim told me he was a graduate of MIT and remembered playing "Computer 
#    Space" on the PDP's there when he was a student, so when he happened 
#    across the SpaceWar at a Tektronix surplus sale he picked it up. It 
#    had then sat in his basement until I showed up.

Variation: playing a "drug lord" computer game gets you
investigated by the Feds. Tonight, Monday Mar 19, on
either CBS evening news, or local NYC CBS evening news,
I'm not sure. Their WWW is of no help for local news,
nor was tvguide.com.

Didn't Steve Jackson's Games already go through this ringer?


    7/1/2000 The O'Reilly Factor.
    #  
    #  "The Clinton White house hates me. I've been audited each
    #  year for the past three years, and they were all fishing
    #  expediations. IT WAS POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.
    #  THE IRS IS HARASSING ME."





From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Mar 19 01:37:42 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 04:37:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: DNA everybody, reduce/solve crimes (War on Crime)
Message-ID: <200103190937.EAA16752@www6.aa.psiweb.com>



http://foxnews.com/world/031701/germany_palkot.sml
#    
#    Child's Murder in Germany Prompts Debate Over Mandatory DNA Testing
#    
#    Saturday, March 17, 2001 By Greg Palkot
#    
#    The brutal murder of 12-year-old Ulrike Brandt, who went missing 
#    from her hometown north of Berlin last month, sparked outrage 
#    across Germany when her strangled and sexually abused body was 
#    found by authorities.
#    
#    Those who knew here mourned. "It was terrible that this could 
#    happen," one neighbor said. "She was such a nice girl." Funeral 
#    services were held Friday.
#    
#    The emotional case sparked a wider debate when some politicians 
#    called for all German men to submit to DNA testing to help find 
#    the girl's killer, and prevent similar crimes in the future. 
#    That call has been rejected by other leading officials, and 
#    brought back for the some the terrible memories of Germany's 
#    Nazi and Communist past, when individual rights were systemat
#    ically disregarded.
#    
#    There is a precedent in post-Cold War Germany for such DNA 
#    testing, in which a saliva samples from those tested are matched 
#    with genetic material found on the victim. In 1998, the killer 
#    of another young German girl was found after more than 16,000 
#    men underwent DNA testing.
#    
#    This new proposal has a much wider potential impact, however, 
#    and could theoretically involve 41 million people.
#    
#    Supporters have promised to push their case. "I am ready to go 
#    very far with legislation," Norbert Geis, legal spokesman for 
#    Germany's CDU/CSU opposition coalition told Fox News, "in order 
#    to catch sexual offenders against children."
#    
#    Opponents of the plan argue that current German law guards against 
#    perceived invasions of privacy. "It's unconstitutional to take 
#    a fingerprint of someone not proven guilty," remarked Volcker 
#    Beck, Alliance 90/Green party parliament member, "so it is clear 
#    you can't take a genetic fingerprint, either."
#    
#    Similar privacy concerns have been raised in the U.S and 
#    elsewhere. Still, DNA testing has had success in America, 
#    particularly at the state level. And Britain is moving to create 
#    a broader national genetic data bank.
#    
#    Geis and other supporters of the DNA testing plan for Germany 
#    have since backed off their earlier hardline positions. But more 
#    extensive testing does have popular support.
#    
#    "It's no problem for me," one Berlin man noted. And a young German 
#    woman remarked, "It's good, so long as they can find the killer."
#    
#    Voluntary DNA testing in Eberswalde, where Ulrike lived, is 
#    already under way.




From BF at farc.org  Mon Mar 19 07:52:45 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:52:45 -0800
Subject: germans .mil punts US software for security reasons
Message-ID: <3AB62B4D.AE19281B@farc.org>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/17679.html


German armed forces ban MS software, citing NSA snooping
                      By: John Lettice
                      Posted: 17/03/2001 at 18:59 GMT

                      The German foreign office and Bundeswehr are
pulling the plugs on Microsoft
                      software, citing security concerns, according to
the German news magazine
                      Der Spiegel. Spiegel claims that German security
authorities suspect that the
                      US National Security Agency (NSA) has 'back door'
access to Microsoft
                      source code, and can therefore easily read the
Federal Republic's deepest
                      secrets.

                      The Bundeswehr will no longer use American
software (we surmise this
                      includes Larry and Scott as well) on computers
used in sensitive areas. The
                      German foreign office has meanwhile put plans for
videoconferencing with its
                      overseas embassies on hold, for similar reasons.
Under secretary of state
                      Gunter Pleuger is said by Spiegel to have
discovered that "for technical
                      reasons" the satellite service that was to be used
was routed via Denver,
                      Colorado.

                      According to a colleague of Pleuger's this meant
that the German foreign
                      services "might as well hold our conferences
directly in Langley." We're not
                      entirely sure whose interesting video conferencing
via satellite service has a
                      vital groundstation in Denver, but we note that
Pleuger seems to have gleaned
                      this information from a presentation held earlier
this month in Berlin by, er,
                      Deutsche Telekom.

                      Which just happens, along with Siemens, to have
picked up the gig. The two
                      companies have supplanted Microsoft (and anything
else American) and will
                      be producing a secure, home-grown system that the
German military can be
                      confident in.

                      Related link:
                      Spiegel story (in German)






From BF at farc.org  Mon Mar 19 07:55:26 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:55:26 -0800
Subject: judges needing organ harvesting -school censorship
Message-ID: <3AB62BED.C25D5986@farc.org>


School's Ban of Manson T-Shirt OK
               By Laurie Asseo
               Associated Press Writer

               WASHINGTON (AP) - A former high school student says he
had a
               free-speech right to wear Marilyn Manson T-shirts to
class. But
               school officials banned them as offensive, and on Monday
the
               student lost a Supreme Court appeal.

               The court, without comment, turned down the Ohio
student's
               argument that school officials could not keep him from
wearing
               T-shirts depicting Manson, a "shock rock" star who took
his stage
               name from Marilyn Monroe and mass killer Charles Manson.

               Nicholas J. Boroff was a senior when he arrived at Van
Wert High
               School in Van Wert, Ohio, in August 1997 wearing a
Marilyn
               Manson T-shirt. Manson's real name is Brian Warner, and
his
               group also is named Marilyn Manson.

               The front of the shirt depicted a three-faced Jesus and
the back of
               the shirt said "believe" with the letters "lie"
highlighted.

               A school administrator told Boroff the shirt was
offensive and told
               him to either turn it inside out, go home and change, or
leave and
               be considered truant.

               Boroff left, and returned each of the next four school
days wearing
               other Marilyn Manson T-shirts. Each time he was told he
could not
               attend class wearing the shirt.

               Boroff sued, saying school officials violated his
constitutional rights
               to free speech and due process. A federal judge ruled for
the
               school district, and the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of
Appeals agreed.

               School officials could ban the shirts because they were
               determined to be "vulgar, offensive and contrary to the
educational
               mission of the school," the appeals court said, noting
that school
               officials submitted evidence of the group's "pro-drug
persona."

               Public schools can prohibit students from wearing shirts
that are
               offensive, even if they are not obscene and have not
caused a
               substantial disruption of the school program, the appeals
court
               said.

               In the appeal acted on Monday, Boroff's lawyers said that
while
               there was evidence that Manson had promoted drug use and
               Satanism, that did not mean school officials could ban
students
               from wearing his name and picture.

               Lawyers for the school district said the group's song
lyrics had
               racial epithets, obscene language and "exhortations to
suicide and
               violence."

               The case is Boroff v. Van Wert City Board of Education,
00-1020.

               ---

               On the Net:

               For the appeals court ruling:
http://www.uscourts.gov/links.html
               and click on 6th Circuit.

               AP-ES-03-19-01 1008EST
               © Copyright 2001 Associated Press. All rights reserved.
This material may not be
               published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
                         Brought to you by the Tampa Bay Online Network




















From tcmay at got.net  Mon Mar 19 08:55:00 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:55:00 -0800
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <3AB63514.394008AF@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10103191606230.72762-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.n
   et> <3AB63514.394008AF@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <a05010403b6dbea38763a@[207.111.241.192]>


At 4:34 PM +0000 3/19/01, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>Of course - that's the point.  Brits are no less violent than USAns, no
>less likely to be criminal, no more polite or neighbourly  (in fact
>rather less). But we are *far* less likely to be killed or seriously
>injured by our neighbours, or by the State.  And part of the reason for
>that is that "normal" people don't have guns in Britain.
>
>Ken (still really not wanting to restart the Great Permanent Floating
>Internet Gun Rant)


Then don't.



--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Mar 19 06:56:28 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:56:28 -0500
Subject: Did you notice [UK vs US crime rates]
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC1C@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> From: Reese[SMTP:reeza at flex.com]
> At 05:45 PM 3/16/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>  >
>  >In the FBI stats that came out the majority of police officers killed
> are
>  >killed with their own gun? They'd probably been better served by a
>  >stun-vest...
>  >
>  >Perhaps we should take guns away from them, then those fine officers
> would
>  >probably have lived longer.
>  >
>  >If you can't trust a weapon to a individual, how can you trust it to a
>  >group of individuals?
> 
> England serves as a fine example here;
> With an armed populace and a disarmed police force :: low crime rate
> With a disarmed populace and an armed police force :: high crime rate.
> 
> Read'em & weep, Phill.
> 
> Reese
> 
A recent article in the Economist points this out:
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=513031

% of people who were victim of a crime, once or more, in 1999:

Violent crime:
England & Wales: 3.5%
US: 1.9%

Car theft 
England & Wales: 2.6%
US: 0.5%

Burglery (including attempts)
England & Wales: 5%
US: 3.8% 

The article opens:

BRITAIN may have slipped down many world league tables over the
past few decades, but it beats all other rich countries except
Australia in one activity: crime. According to a new victimisation
survey of industrialised nations, people in England and Wales are
at greater risk than anywhere else of having a car stolen. And
apart from Australia, people who live in England and Wales are at
greater risk of being assaulted, robbed, sexually attacked and
having their homes burgled than are people in any other rich
country.
[end quote]

Now, the murder rate in the US *is* substantially higher than 
Britain's, but your overall chances of getting through the day
safely are probably higher in the US.

Peter Trei




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Mar 19 06:56:28 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:56:28 -0500
Subject: Did you notice [UK vs US crime rates]
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC1C@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> From: Reese[SMTP:reeza at flex.com]
> At 05:45 PM 3/16/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>  >
>  >In the FBI stats that came out the majority of police officers killed
> are
>  >killed with their own gun? They'd probably been better served by a
>  >stun-vest...
>  >
>  >Perhaps we should take guns away from them, then those fine officers
> would
>  >probably have lived longer.
>  >
>  >If you can't trust a weapon to a individual, how can you trust it to a
>  >group of individuals?
> 
> England serves as a fine example here;
> With an armed populace and a disarmed police force :: low crime rate
> With a disarmed populace and an armed police force :: high crime rate.
> 
> Read'em & weep, Phill.
> 
> Reese
> 
A recent article in the Economist points this out:
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=513031

% of people who were victim of a crime, once or more, in 1999:

Violent crime:
England & Wales: 3.5%
US: 1.9%

Car theft 
England & Wales: 2.6%
US: 0.5%

Burglery (including attempts)
England & Wales: 5%
US: 3.8% 

The article opens:

BRITAIN may have slipped down many world league tables over the
past few decades, but it beats all other rich countries except
Australia in one activity: crime. According to a new victimisation
survey of industrialised nations, people in England and Wales are
at greater risk than anywhere else of having a car stolen. And
apart from Australia, people who live in England and Wales are at
greater risk of being assaulted, robbed, sexually attacked and
having their homes burgled than are people in any other rich
country.
[end quote]

Now, the murder rate in the US *is* substantially higher than 
Britain's, but your overall chances of getting through the day
safely are probably higher in the US.

Peter Trei




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Mar 19 10:02:17 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:02:17 -0800
Subject: Spread Spectrum
Message-ID: <3AB649A9.262731C4@lsil.com>


>
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > 900MHz packet (<$100/site) coupled with Plan 9 is the base you want to
> > start from using current tech. 
> 
> 
> Microwave networking providers price vary considerably, and a number of
> ISPs are reluctant to unroll this stuff due to implementation pricing.
> 
> Can anyone recommend good nice, and inexpensive packet radio LAN
> technology ? I've heard that breezecom is pretty nice, what do you guys
> think ?
> 
> How secure are the spread spectrum modulation schemes on these things
> anyway ?
> 
I had one brief go at the FCC site but didn't find a what I was looking
for. However, I think that for surveillance reasons the channel hopping
sequences are canned. I'm *kinda* sure that a private pseudorandom walk
is not allowed.

Mike




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Mar 19 07:11:13 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:11:13 -0500
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicid e
  After Christian Taunts.
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC1D@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> 
> >leitmotif to satanistic themes. Similarly a Goth attire and a suitable
> >amount of group aggression will likely be as efficient on a child with a
> >Christian fundamental worldview as a direct threat. And as time goes by,
> 
> Goth attire??  You mean short robes under leather armor and ring mail?
> And why should that be frightening to Christians, anyway? Rome was at 
> the height of the *Pagan* empire when the Goths sacked it.... I'm betting 
> the early Christians around Rome at the time probably joined in gleefully.
> 
> 				Bear
> 
> 
>"Rome was at the height of the *Pagan* empire when the Goths sacked it....
"

323 AD: Constantine makes Chrisitianity the official religion of the Roman
Empire.
410 AD: Alaric the Goth sacks the city of Rome (by then no longer the
capital).

The 'height of the Pagan Empire" came several centuries earlier. Barbarians
couldn't have sacked Rome at it's height - they could not have got within 
several hundred miles of the city.

"Those who will not study history are condemned to look silly"

Peter Trei




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Mar 19 07:11:13 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:11:13 -0500
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicid
	e After Christian Taunts.
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC1D@exna07.securitydynamics.com>



> Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> 
> >leitmotif to satanistic themes. Similarly a Goth attire and a suitable
> >amount of group aggression will likely be as efficient on a child with a
> >Christian fundamental worldview as a direct threat. And as time goes by,
> 
> Goth attire??  You mean short robes under leather armor and ring mail?
> And why should that be frightening to Christians, anyway? Rome was at 
> the height of the *Pagan* empire when the Goths sacked it.... I'm betting 
> the early Christians around Rome at the time probably joined in gleefully.
> 
> 				Bear
> 
> 
>"Rome was at the height of the *Pagan* empire when the Goths sacked it....
"

323 AD: Constantine makes Chrisitianity the official religion of the Roman
Empire.
410 AD: Alaric the Goth sacks the city of Rome (by then no longer the
capital).

The 'height of the Pagan Empire" came several centuries earlier. Barbarians
couldn't have sacked Rome at it's height - they could not have got within 
several hundred miles of the city.

"Those who will not study history are condemned to look silly"

Peter Trei







From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Mon Mar 19 08:15:10 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:15:10 -0600
Subject: CDR: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court allows school T-shirt ban -
Message-ID: <mailman.379.1576007504.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

March 19, 2001
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
X-Unsubscription-Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr
X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com
X-Loop: ssz.com
X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Precedence: first-class
Reply-To: Jim Choate <jchoate at dev.tivoli.com>
X-List: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net


http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/03/19/scotus.shirt.ap/index.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062

[Unquote]




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Mon Mar 19 08:15:10 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:15:10 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court allows school T-shirt ban - March 19, 2001
Message-ID: <3AB6308E.6FB5888@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/03/19/scotus.shirt.ap/index.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Mar 19 02:20:54 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:20:54 +0000
Subject: Did you notice
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316143337.00d3cb40@flex.com>
Message-ID: <3AB5DD86.22B2AEDD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Reese wrote:
 
> England serves as a fine example here;

I'm sure it does, but of what?

I think the murder rate in Britain is about 1/6 of what it is in the
USA. (I mean rate, not actual numbers, this is not a 28% paternity
error). And the proportion of people killed accidentally is far lower
here as well.  We are perhaps a fine example of finding ways to live
longer?




From bf at farc.org  Mon Mar 19 10:26:31 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:26:31 -0800
Subject: innocent get 5th too
Message-ID: <3AB64F57.70FC05EC@farc.org>



John Young, you get the 5th too....




Mar 19, 2001 - 11:49 AM

            Court Says Innocent Can Refuse
            to Testify
            By Anne Gearan
            Associated Press Writer

            WASHINGTON (AP) - "Taking the Fifth" is an option
            open to the innocent as well as the guilty, the
            Supreme Court ruled Monday.

            The unanimous decision stems from the conviction
            of an Ohio man in the "shaken baby" death of his
            infant son. The Supreme Court affirmed the right of
            the family baby sitter to claim Fifth Amendment
            protection from self-incrimination even if prosecutors
            did not accuse her of wrongdoing.

            Matthew Reiner claimed the baby sitter harmed
            10-week-old Alex in 1995, but Toledo prosecutors
            instead focused on him and planned to call the baby
            sitter to testify against him.

            They did not intend to prosecute Susan Batt, but she
            nevertheless refused to testify unless given a
            promise of immunity. Otherwise, she would exercise
            her Fifth Amendment right not to testify, she told
            prosecutors.

            When she testified, Batt denied ever harming Alex or
            his twin brother, who suffered broken bones. Reiner
            was convicted in 1996 and sentenced to probation.

            The Ohio Supreme Court ultimately threw out the
            conviction on grounds that Batt's protected testimony
            unfairly undermined Reiner's defense.

            Ohio prosecutors appealed to the U.S. Supreme
            Court, which issued a short, unsigned opinion
            Monday without hearing oral arguments.

            "That tells us it was so clear the Ohio Supreme Court
            was wrong in its analysis of the facts and the law,"
            Toledo prosecutor J. Christopher Anderson said.

            Monday's decision apparently reinstates Reiner's
            conviction, Anderson said.

            Even if Batt had nothing to do with Alex's death, she
            had a reasonable fear that testifying "might tend to
            incriminate her," the justices wrote.

            "Batt spent extended periods of time alone with Alex
            and his brother in the weeks immediately preceding
            discovery of their injuries. She was with Alex within
            the potential timeframe of the fatal trauma," the
            justices wrote.

            Hence, Batt was free to assert her Fifth Amendment
            rights, the justices said.

            Previous Supreme Court decisions set a precedent
            that the Fifth Amendment "protects the innocent as
            well as the guilty," the court said.

            The case is Ohio v. Reiner, 00-1028.




From bear at sonic.net  Mon Mar 19 10:58:43 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:58:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <3AB5DD86.22B2AEDD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103191040260.29093-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Ken Brown wrote:


>I think the murder rate in Britain is about 1/6 of what it is in the
>USA. (I mean rate, not actual numbers, this is not a 28% paternity
>error). And the proportion of people killed accidentally is far lower
>here as well.  We are perhaps a fine example of finding ways to live
>longer?

Yup.  I'm not sure that's actually better though.  Don't get me 
wrong, I've nothing against living a long time -- but I'm also 
perfectly willing to accept that being free enough to find extreme 
ways to live or silly ways to die young is also better than being 
"protected" from myself.  

As I get more accustomed to living in close proximity to many 
others (urban vs. rural) I'm mellowing in this opinion a little 
bit.  It's easy for a rural kid to accept that stupid people 
get themselves killed -- I'm accustomed to thinking of guns 
as just one more tool that a rancher needs to keep the numbers 
of predators down so s/he can raise stock, and of course farm 
machinery is all over the place.  But guns, farm machinery, etc, 
take a really heavy toll on idiots and the careless, and that's 
just the way the world works.

But in the city, you can die because someone *else* is being 
stupid, and that's a lot harder to accept.  Also, in a city, 
there are a lot fewer non-stupid uses for guns.  So now at least I 
see the point of some of these laws, even if I still don't agree 
with them. 

It's the old argument about being free enough to make our own 
mistakes -- with guns, or otherwise.  I prefer it to most of 
the alternatives. 

				Bear

On a faintly related note, every time I ride BART (the subway to 
new yorkers; the metro to europeans), I hear the recorded safety 
announcements and I'm vaguely horrified that there are apparently
people out there, still alive and most likely capable of breeding, 
who are so stupid they have to be warned not to lick the third 
rail.... 





From hh139 at excite.com  Mon Mar 19 11:03:09 2001
From: hh139 at excite.com (Hannah)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:03:09 -0800
Subject: Don't Delete - A MUST READ!
Message-ID: <200103191702.f2JH2nx04108@granger.centurytel.net>


Dear Fellow Entrepreneur:

Don't knock it until you at least read this.

For the first time I have ever received a piece of email that actually delivered 
more than just empty promises.

I assure you, you will earn money each month, at home in your spare time, and 
without sending cash in the mail for recipes.

Normally, I use my account to work from home and I don't play around, but  after 
recieving what I assumed was the same old email I finally read it because of 
the Catchy subject line.  It was so REAL it gave me goose pimples!

I had to do this!

I promise you, if you set aside a little time each day on this program, you will 
MAKE MONEY.

This will produce results, but you can make a dime with this....until you get 
started yourself!

If you would like the details on this explosive new money making opportunity 
send a BLANK email to:
to hh139 at excite.com with Entrepreneur in the subject line.

You will be forwarded the information immediately with "Entrepreneur" in the 
subject line.  So, be on the lookout.
 





From lvild at usa.net  Mon Mar 19 11:13:58 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 19 Mar 2001 11:13:58 PST
Subject: [Re: content owners vs. ISPs]
Message-ID: <20010319191358.16774.qmail@nwcst283.netaddress.usa.net>


Every station an ISP, 1++ vote

Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >
> >900MHz packet (<$100/site) coupled with Plan 9 is the base you want to
> >start from using current tech. It will require updating firewall software
> >so that it also handles bandwidth throttling and fail-over routing.
> 
> 
> I've looked at that, but I'm unsure about it...  the problem is that 
> if not enough people have it you're out of range - but if too many 
> people have it, you're choked for bandwidth and get interference 
> problems.  
> 
> With a range of a few hundred feet to a few miles, routing can also 
> become problematic. 
> 
> It would be nice though: a $100 'packet box' for each station, that 
> allows you to set up independent IP connections with your neighbors. 
> If you can get them common enough, it would be impossible to cut 
> someone off by cutting their ISP access -- 'cause out in the wild, 
> a packet is a packet is a packet, and if all the stations run IP 
> protocol, even if every ISP in the world rejects a packet, it could 
> still make its way across any continent in short hops from station 
> to station. 
> 
> And this is not just an anti-censorship thing, either; this is 
> more properly a tool for 24/7 uptime for people who can't afford 
> t3's and can't get PacBell's attention to fix their damn line in 
> the first minute after it goes down. I can picture that sales 
> pitch appealing to a lot of home businesses who get cut off from 
> their DSL connection for a week at a time while PacBell pulls its 
> head out of its collective ass. Or Cinci Bell, or Southern Bell, 
> or NTT, or Deutsche Telecomm, or whoever serves their area. 
> 
> I like it.  Every station an ISP. 
> 
> 				Bear
> 
> 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From lvild at usa.net  Mon Mar 19 11:25:07 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 19 Mar 2001 11:25:07 PST
Subject: [Did you notice]
Message-ID: <20010319192507.7156.qmail@nwcst320.netaddress.usa.net>


You made a simple but sharp question Jim.

Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> In the FBI stats that came out the majority of police officers killed are
> killed with their own gun? They'd probably been better served by a
> stun-vest...
> 
> Perhaps we should take guns away from them, then those fine officers would
> probably have lived longer.
> 
> If you can't trust a weapon to a individual, how can you trust it to a
> group of individuals?
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>          If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
>          not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Mar 19 03:32:13 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:32:13 +0000
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide AfterChristian
         Taunts.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103170813150.7191-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3AB5EE3D.50507CD7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Ray Dillinger wrote:

> Goth attire??  You mean short robes under leather armor and ring mail?
> And why should that be frightening to Christians, anyway? Rome was at
> the height of the *Pagan* empire when the Goths sacked it.... I'm betting
> the early Christians around Rome at the time probably joined in gleefully.

Nope :-)

The Roman Empire was already officially Christian when the Visigoths
attacked the city in 408 & 410. It had sort of been for a hundred years,
but non-Christian religions had only begun to be banned by the Emperor
Theodosios in the 390s.

Christianity was probably still a minority religion in most provinces,
but the majority of the population of Egypt & Syria were probably
Christian, and perhaps also Africa (i.e. more or less what we now call
Tunisia & parts of Algeria).  In the rest of the Empire the
city-dwellers tended to be Christian, especially the working classes,
the slaves & the poor, but the country-folk were mostly not Christian - 
hence the word "pagan" which simply means someone who lives in the
country, as opposed to the city.  Of course in those days peasants were
the vast majority of the population & the urban working-classes a small
minority.

The aristocracy of the city of Rome itself was one of the last sections
of society to be won over to the new religion. But the royal family 
(this was one of the rare bits of history when Rome was actually ruled
by a dynasty in which Emperor succeeded Emperor without civil war) was
thoroughly Christian,  maybe even fanatically so.  Of course they had
little connection with the Roman city aristocracy being a military
family of  Spanish origin with the habit of marrying Greeks or
barbarians. (There is some speculation that the reason Theodosios got to
be Emperor in the first place was that he was the only senior army
officer left who wasn't a German - and he managed to marry most of his
female relatives off to the German officers PDQ - presumably to get and
keep them on his side)

The Goths also been Christians since before most of the Romans were.
They were mostly followers of the Arian heresy, which caused some mutual
stress & recrimination. It was one of the reasons that they never
managed to control Gaul for very long - the local aristos were mostly
Catholic - a century or so later the kings of the Franks became Catholic
and settled down to found France. Paris has always been worth a mass.

When Alaric's troops sacked Rome he went for an audience with the Pope.
His policies were mostly pro-Roman  and always pro-Christian, though he
didn't let either of those get in the way of a good pillage.  His cousin
Athaulf married Galla Placidia, the younger sister of the Emperors - not
apparently against her will.  She later became arguably the only woman
to rule Rome in Imperial times as Emperor, i.e. "Augusta", in her own
right. 

The really *nasty* sack of Rome was a generation later, when the Vandals
did it over. (Odd how these words live on in the language "Vandal",
"Gothic", "Frank" and "Romantic" all have quite strong connotations
these days!.)

The Goths didn't want to destroy Rome they wanted to be part of it. 
More refugees than invaders. Illegal immigrants with attitude.

I strongly suspect that if they had met a half-pissed skinny bloke with
pagan tendencies in black leather with multiple piercings, white makeup,
and a penchant for the gloomy end of rock, they would have cut his head
off first and done the cultural analysis afterwards.


Ken Brown, off-topic, but pedantic.




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Mar 19 09:10:23 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:10:23 -0500
Subject: Choke, Choate
Message-ID: <200103191722.MAA26918@smtp6.mindspring.com>


Jesus Kristmas, Jim, look at the stinking garbage you send 
with a single subject line of information. Have you no shame, 
or do you not smell your own farts? And this is with babble
turned off. Sys yr msg.

[Quote]


From smoran at ftscorp.com  Mon Mar 19 09:23:14 2001
From: smoran at ftscorp.com (steve)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:23:14 -0500
Subject: flatbed scanner free
Message-ID: <200103191727.JAA27509@cyberpass.net>


Future Tech Marketing, the leaders in online 
promotion, want to give you a free flatbed 
scanner.  Quantities are limited.

Contact us for details at 877-798-9331 x 401.  

----------------------------------------------
To be removed from our database, please reply 
to this email with the subject "REMOVE".




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar 19 11:12:36 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:12:36 -0600
Subject: Cybercrime LE: a future of privatization, vigilantism &
  corporate rule?
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEAMCHAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


"Just as settlers in the old west couldn't necessarily always rely upon the
local sheriff to provide good crime control, it may be in fact the case that
Internet users may have to rely upon private parties, and third party
concerns, for preventing crime, and enforcing certain criminal norms."
<snip>

"And in fact, these sorts of folks, whether its the software vendor, the
hardware vendor, the Internet Service Provider, or the phone company, can in
fact sometimes be in the best position to monitor the activities of their
clients online, ...." [jump link for context]

	- March 16 Federalist Society Address by Michael O'Neill
http://www.techlawjournal.com/security/20010316.asp


Private protection rackets, rights management, and corporate enforcers
abound for control and investigation functions....but self-defensive
aggressive acts and vigilantism theories are often viewed askance. Any
thoughts on how cybercrime and cybermaleficence will be addressed in the
future? Support your argument with reason, selected quotes, prose or bardic
lyre.

	~Aimee

	Then a lawyer said, "But what of our Laws, master?"
		-- Kahlil Gibran, The Prophet, On Laws
		http://www.columbia.edu/~gm84/gibran13.html




From andrew at security.za.net  Mon Mar 19 04:37:26 2001
From: andrew at security.za.net (Andrew Alston)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:37:26 +0200
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide AfterChristian Taunts.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103171312500.10196-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPIEPHCKAA.andrew@security.za.net>




>but Im interested to hear what she did to incite this, because I seriously
>doubt kids singing hymns at her without either provocation from her or
>alternatively pushing from their teachers/parents.

Huh? Apparently you've never had the treatment; children can be intolerant
as hell. Primary school gave me the most frightening examples of herd
behavior I've *ever* seen.

Heh, that wasnt my point, I wasnt trying to say that primary school kids
dont provoke, and dont cause trouble, etc etc, my point was that most
primary school kids would definatly find other means than singing Christian
hymns at her, in my experience kids are not ones for singing hymns, they
prefer to act in far less subtle ways?  Maybe Im wrong? *shrug*

Andrew




From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Mar 19 11:44:33 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:44:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Choke, Choate 
Message-ID: <200103191944.OAA15978@www9.aa.psiweb.com>


John Young, State of Washington Tourist Guide, wrote:
#    Jesus Kristmas, Jim, look at the stinking garbage you send 
#    with a single subject line of information. Have you no shame, 
#    or do you not smell your own farts? And this is with babble
#    turned off. Sys yr msg.

He's sooooo in love with himself.

Proof: he's the top poster.

When asked why he couldn't manage to contain himself,
by saving up all his separate little posts into a
single one and sending it out once a day, he had
nothing to say in defense.




From reeza at flex.com  Mon Mar 19 17:05:46 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:05:46 -1000
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <3AB5DD86.22B2AEDD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316143337.00d3cb40@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010319145924.00df6900@flex.com>


At 10:20 AM 3/19/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
 >Reese wrote:
 >
 >> England serves as a fine example here;
 >
 >I'm sure it does, but of what?

Crime rates.

 >I think the murder rate in Britain is about 1/6 of what it is in the
 >USA. (I mean rate, not actual numbers, this is not a 28% paternity
 >error). And the proportion of people killed accidentally is far lower
 >here as well.  We are perhaps a fine example of finding ways to live
 >longer?

Peter Trei just posted a url to an Economist story, and THIS, lists just
about everything BUT murder: 
http://itn.co.uk/news/20010116/britain/06crime.shtml - so what's the rest
of the story?

Reese




From jdd at vbc.net  Mon Mar 19 08:09:16 2001
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:09:16 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <3AB5DD86.22B2AEDD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10103191606230.72762-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.net>


On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> Reese wrote:
>  
> > England serves as a fine example here;
> 
> I'm sure it does, but of what?
> 
> I think the murder rate in Britain is about 1/6 of what it is in the
> USA. (I mean rate, not actual numbers, this is not a 28% paternity
> error). And the proportion of people killed accidentally is far lower
> here as well.  We are perhaps a fine example of finding ways to live
> longer?

If anyone cares, the interpersonal violence rate is considerably 
higher in the UK.  Recent statisics on crime in industrialised 
countries (and therefore excluding South Africa) showed Australia 
leading the world and the UK second.   America trailed far behind.

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From jdd at vbc.net  Mon Mar 19 08:09:16 2001
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:09:16 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <3AB5DD86.22B2AEDD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10103191606230.72762-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.n
  et>


On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> Reese wrote:
>  
> > England serves as a fine example here;
> 
> I'm sure it does, but of what?
> 
> I think the murder rate in Britain is about 1/6 of what it is in the
> USA. (I mean rate, not actual numbers, this is not a 28% paternity
> error). And the proportion of people killed accidentally is far lower
> here as well.  We are perhaps a fine example of finding ways to live
> longer?

If anyone cares, the interpersonal violence rate is considerably 
higher in the UK.  Recent statisics on crime in industrialised 
countries (and therefore excluding South Africa) showed Australia 
leading the world and the UK second.   America trailed far behind.

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Mar 19 08:34:28 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:34:28 +0000
Subject: Did you notice
References: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10103191606230.72762-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.net>
Message-ID: <3AB63514.394008AF@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>




Jim Dixon wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
> 
> > Reese wrote:
> >
> > > England serves as a fine example here;
> >
> > I'm sure it does, but of what?
> >
> > I think the murder rate in Britain is about 1/6 of what it is in the
> > USA. (I mean rate, not actual numbers, this is not a 28% paternity
> > error). And the proportion of people killed accidentally is far lower
> > here as well.  We are perhaps a fine example of finding ways to live
> > longer?
> 
> If anyone cares, the interpersonal violence rate is considerably
> higher in the UK.  Recent statisics on crime in industrialised
> countries (and therefore excluding South Africa) showed Australia
> leading the world and the UK second.   America trailed far behind.

Of course - that's the point.  Brits are no less violent than USAns, no
less likely to be criminal, no more polite or neighbourly  (in fact
rather less). But we are *far* less likely to be killed or seriously
injured by our neighbours, or by the State.  And part of the reason for
that is that "normal" people don't have guns in Britain.

Ken (still really not wanting to restart the Great Permanent Floating
Internet Gun Rant)




From decoy at iki.fi  Mon Mar 19 07:08:46 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:08:46 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide AfterChristian
 Taunts.
In-Reply-To: <3AB5EE3D.50507CD7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103191653570.21928-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

[Snip; it's nice to know people know their history...]
>I strongly suspect that if they had met a half-pissed skinny bloke with
>pagan tendencies in black leather with multiple piercings, white makeup,
>and a penchant for the gloomy end of rock, they would have cut his head
>off first and done the cultural analysis afterwards.

Which would seem to get us back to my original point. This "Goth" look is as
powerful a message as any, and as likely to shock current Christians as it
would have been earlier ones, especially if you happen to be the only one
not to belong. The same goes for groups of chanting classmates and an
isolated Wicca. In both cases the message is a one of collective aggression
and certainly regularly sending such a message casts doubts on both the
sender and the message. Even if the message takes the superficial appearance
of valid religious expression.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From decoy at iki.fi  Mon Mar 19 07:08:46 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:08:46 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [OT] kuro5hin.org || 12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide
  AfterChristian Taunts.
In-Reply-To: <3AB5EE3D.50507CD7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0103191653570.21928-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >


On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

[Snip; it's nice to know people know their history...]
>I strongly suspect that if they had met a half-pissed skinny bloke with
>pagan tendencies in black leather with multiple piercings, white makeup,
>and a penchant for the gloomy end of rock, they would have cut his head
>off first and done the cultural analysis afterwards.

Which would seem to get us back to my original point. This "Goth" look is as
powerful a message as any, and as likely to shock current Christians as it
would have been earlier ones, especially if you happen to be the only one
not to belong. The same goes for groups of chanting classmates and an
isolated Wicca. In both cases the message is a one of collective aggression
and certainly regularly sending such a message casts doubts on both the
sender and the message. Even if the message takes the superficial appearance
of valid religious expression.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar 19 15:36:20 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:36:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
In-Reply-To: <3AB4D380.745BEE8C@crosswinds.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010319173538.5925u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sun, 18 Mar 2001, madmullah wrote:

> Microwave networking providers price vary considerably, and a number of
> ISPs are reluctant to unroll this stuff due to implementation pricing.

Which is irrelevant to the point we're talking about.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ispi at ns2.xidian.edu.cn  Mon Mar 19 01:54:24 2001
From: ispi at ns2.xidian.edu.cn (ispi)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:54:24 +0800
Subject: Zero-knowledge proof
Message-ID: <3AB5D750.1642D056@xidian.edu.cn>


Are there any zero-knowledge proof protocols for possession of discrete
logarithm such that X=g^x mod N? N is a composite number, e.g. N=PQ is
a RSA module.
Thanks.




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar 19 16:04:10 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:04:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: UCITA meeting at the capitol (fwd) [SSZ: Tx. only]
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010319180216.5925B-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:47:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Any Mouse (amouse at anywhere.com)
Subject: UCITA meeting at the capitol

I have talked to Bonnie Bruce(463-0766) of Business
and Industry. She said the bill has a large chance of
not being passed. But, that it would be brought up in
room E2.016 at the State Capitol Tuesday, or tomorrow.

I will make my best effort to be there(99%). I really
don't want to miss this. So anyone wanting to take
part and can get to the Capitol please do so.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Mar 19 20:19:27 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 20:19:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Stegonography -- The New Crypto Boogieman
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010319215050.5925L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103192007250.11917-100000@clueserver.org>



In the Oregonian March 19, 2001 Page D1 there is an article entitled
"Hidden Content -- Criminals use steganography to send illicit data in
what appears to be innocuous files".

The article can be found here:

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/index.ssf?/business/oregonian/01/03/technw/fn_21stega19.frame

This thing trots our every horseman under the sun, from Terrorists, nerve
gas makers, and every other fear mongering group possible.  You have to
read it to believe it.

It reads just like a press release from the FBI's department of
disinformation.

Probably the most fear-mongering peice of crap I have read in the
Oregonian in quite a while.  (Even beyond the headline about vampire cults
(i.e. Goths) being responsible for blood drinking murders.)

Stego is going to be the big target for anti-crypto propaganda.

Expect similar stories in a paper near you.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar 19 19:52:22 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:52:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN: Encryption Explainer
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010319215050.5925L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Go check out the 'Encryption Explainer' under the "David Ensor Inside the
NSA" piece (R. column, blue text w/ red bkgd.).

http://cnn.com

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar 19 20:03:59 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:03:59 -0600
Subject: The Register - THE DVD Prime Number
Message-ID: <3AB6D6AF.4C60CE63@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17681.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From weeklymag at corpmail.hr.com  Mon Mar 19 19:11:54 2001
From: weeklymag at corpmail.hr.com (weeklymag at corpmail.hr.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:11:54 -0500
Subject: HR.com's eBulletin for the week of March 19, 2001
Message-ID: <200103200833.AAA26949@cyberpass.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 39133 bytes
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URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/20010319/aa4ae838/attachment.txt>

From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Mar 19 22:35:13 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:35:13 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online
  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010319223441.00a44430@idiom.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: David Farber [mailto:dave at farber.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 4:18 AM
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Virginia Court's Decision in Online 'John Doe' Case Hailed
by Free-Speech Advocates


CYBER LAW JOURNAL

Virginia Court's Decision in Online 'John Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech
Advocates

By CARL KAPLAN
Cyber Law Journal

In what was apparently the first Internet defamation case to involve both
an anonymous plaintiff and anonymous defendants, the Supreme Court of
Virginia refused to grant an unidentified company access to America
Online's confidential subscriber information unless the firm agreed to
reveal its identity.

The plaintiff in the case, named in court documents only as "Anonymous
Publicly Traded Company," dropped its efforts to subpoena AOL after
agreeing on Wednesday to the dismissal of a related case in Indiana.
Douglas M. Palais, the lawyer for the plaintiff company, declined to
explain why his client had dropped its case.

While the litigation is no longer pending, the ruling handed down in
Virginia could set a precedent for similar lawsuits across the country. In
its decision, the Virginia court said that an anonymous plaintiff could be
given subpoena power only if it would suffer exceptional harm, such as a
social stigma or extraordinary economic retaliation, as a result of
revealing its identity.

<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/16/technology/16CYBERLAW.html



For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/




From sethf at sethf.com  Mon Mar 19 22:25:52 2001
From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 01:25:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Gun activists have a stake against censorware
Message-ID: <mailman.380.1576007504.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

[Feel free to forward to your list]

	As you know, the groups ACLU/ALA/PFAW will be filing a
lawsuit against the Federal censorware law (CIPA). It's important to
understand that the reach of censorware extends to far more than sex.
Anyone who can be the target of a secret blacklist has a stake.  As a
small illustration, a quick check shows the censorware program
SmartFilter blacklists many gun-related sites under the category of
"Criminal Skills":

http://www.gun-room.com
http://www.gungarage.com
http://www.gun-tests.com
http://www.guns.com
http://www.gunsamerica.com
http://www.ncggasgun.com
http://www.championfirearms.com
http://www.springfield-armory.com

And http://www.ayoob.com is considered "Extreme" (that's akin to obscene)

	These can be verified by testing the URLs using the web-form at
http://www.securecomputing.com/cgi-bin/filter_whereV3.cgi
[It would be a good idea to do such a check before you send out this
message, because the blacklist may be changed after this is publicized]

__
Seth Finkelstein  Consulting Programmer  sethf at sethf.com  http://sethf.com
EFF Pioneer: http://www.eff.org/awards/20010305_pioneer_press_release.html
Anticensorware Investigations: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/



**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar 20 05:02:39 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:02:39 -0600
Subject: Mercury News publisher steps down - Mar. 20, 2001 (Ok, all journalists may not be whores)
Message-ID: <3AB754EF.79B092C5@ssz.com>


http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2001/03/20/news/wires/mercurynews_wg/
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Mar 20 08:32:58 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:32:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online 
 'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010319223441.00a44430@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103200812150.455-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

>In what was apparently the first Internet defamation case to involve both
>an anonymous plaintiff and anonymous defendants, the Supreme Court of
>Virginia refused to grant an unidentified company access to America
>Online's confidential subscriber information unless the firm agreed to
>reveal its identity.

I'm missing something here.  How is it even possible for an anonymous 
plaintiff to show defamation?  Defamation is identity-linked.


>The plaintiff in the case, named in court documents only as "Anonymous
>Publicly Traded Company," dropped its efforts to subpoena AOL after
>agreeing on Wednesday to the dismissal of a related case in Indiana.

Hrm.  Okay, "related case" - so this company isn't actually anonymous, 
it's pseudonymous.  Still, unless they've got reputation capital in 
the pseudonym (and it doesn't sound like they do), defamation against 
it just doesn't scan. 

>Douglas M. Palais, the lawyer for the plaintiff company, declined to
>explain why his client had dropped its case.

Duh.  They expected him to betray trust, I suppose?

>While the litigation is no longer pending, the ruling handed down in
>Virginia could set a precedent for similar lawsuits across the country. In
>its decision, the Virginia court said that an anonymous plaintiff could be
>given subpoena power only if it would suffer exceptional harm, such as a
>social stigma or extraordinary economic retaliation, as a result of
>revealing its identity.


Hmmm.  I'm not a lawyer, but I think that's over-broad.  I'd agree 
with an anonymous plaintiff having no subpeona power in a *defamation* 
case, because until the identity is known the crime cannot be 
assessed.  But this reads like they intend for this test to apply 
in *all* cases, and that's probably not right.  Also, this sounds 
more like a pseudonymous plaintiff than an anonymous one, and there 
*is* such a thing as defamation against a pseudonym. 

Also, there's a real question here.  Say I've got a pseudonym such 
as my unsigned PGP key, and I've been using it for years.  Now 
someone says "messages signed by this key are from a child 
molesting sodomite." 

On the one hand, there's a defamation case because the pseudonym's 
value is reduced.  It loses a lot of reputation capital.  

On the other hand, if I now step forward and say "Excuse me, that's 
my key and I never molested a child in my life -- and I've also 
never been to the mideast, let alone the city of Sodom...", my 
identity is linked to the pseudonym, which damages its value 
further.  Also, I may suffer "extraordinary harm" as a result -- 
there still being people here and there who think stoning anyone 
suspected of child molesting is better than finding out whether 
it's actually true.  

The precedent seems to indicate that a pseudonym cannot be defended
under the law.  It can only be destroyed.

The wording of the decision seems to indicate that the judge does 
not understand the difference between anonymity and pseudonymity.

				Bear




From declan at well.com  Tue Mar 20 05:56:49 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:56:49 -0500
Subject: Democratic 'critters want Bush to continue with med priv reg
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010320085604.02486370@mail.well.com>



HEALTH News conference to urge Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy 
Thompson to proceed with prompt implementation of the HHS Medical Privacy 
Regulation. Participants: Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass.; Sen. Patrick Leahy, 
D-Vt.; Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich.; Rep. Edward Markey, D-Mass.; Rep. Henry 
Waxman, D-Calif., and Chris Koyangi, Mental Health Liaison Group Location: 
2168 Rayburn House Office Building. 11:30 a.m. Contact: Jim Manley, 
202-224-2633 or David Moulton, 202-225-2836 




From janis at mail.thebestplace.org  Tue Mar 20 07:05:23 2001
From: janis at mail.thebestplace.org (janis at mail.thebestplace.org)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:05:23 -0500
Subject: Super Fast Online Browsing!
Message-ID: <b7ggqujg6l1sbk0a.oi0x4j51@mzncii.loudpages.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 2130 bytes
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From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Mar 20 08:39:30 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:39:30 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Is The Net Revolution Breaking Faith?
Message-ID: <3AB787C2.7B9D689A@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/features/01/03/11/1914245.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Mar 20 08:08:24 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:08:24 -0500
Subject: Did you notice
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC2C@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Ken Brown[SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk]
> Jim Dixon wrote:
> > If anyone cares, the interpersonal violence rate is considerably
> > higher in the UK.  Recent statisics on crime in industrialised
> > countries (and therefore excluding South Africa) showed Australia
> > leading the world and the UK second.   America trailed far behind.
> 
> Of course - that's the point.  Brits are no less violent than USAns, no
> less likely to be criminal, no more polite or neighbourly  (in fact
> rather less). But we are *far* less likely to be killed or seriously
> injured by our neighbours, or by the State.  And part of the reason for
> that is that "normal" people don't have guns in Britain.
> 
> Ken (still really not wanting to restart the Great Permanent Floating
> Internet Gun Rant)
> 
Ken: 

I'm sure the apparent discounting of the US murder rate by some American
list members seems inexplicable to you. At the risk of being extremely 
non-PC, I think I can explain why.

The distribution of murders in the US is very heavily skewed towards
groups which are unlikely to be on the list, or acquainted to people
on the list. In short, there is a large disparity in the murder rates for
white, educated professionals (who make up most the membership of
this list) vs poor blacks or latinos.

If you look at the murder rate for white middle/upper class folk, you'll
find its
quite comparable to Britain and other European countries. No person
I have ever known personally has fallen to murder, a statement which
I expect could be made by most the American posters to this list.

While it's sad that people don't factor in the societal risks borne by
'other groups' in this country, it's just human nature.

Peter Trei






From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Mar 20 08:08:24 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:08:24 -0500
Subject: Did you notice
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC2C@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> Ken Brown[SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk]
> Jim Dixon wrote:
> > If anyone cares, the interpersonal violence rate is considerably
> > higher in the UK.  Recent statisics on crime in industrialised
> > countries (and therefore excluding South Africa) showed Australia
> > leading the world and the UK second.   America trailed far behind.
> 
> Of course - that's the point.  Brits are no less violent than USAns, no
> less likely to be criminal, no more polite or neighbourly  (in fact
> rather less). But we are *far* less likely to be killed or seriously
> injured by our neighbours, or by the State.  And part of the reason for
> that is that "normal" people don't have guns in Britain.
> 
> Ken (still really not wanting to restart the Great Permanent Floating
> Internet Gun Rant)
> 
Ken: 

I'm sure the apparent discounting of the US murder rate by some American
list members seems inexplicable to you. At the risk of being extremely 
non-PC, I think I can explain why.

The distribution of murders in the US is very heavily skewed towards
groups which are unlikely to be on the list, or acquainted to people
on the list. In short, there is a large disparity in the murder rates for
white, educated professionals (who make up most the membership of
this list) vs poor blacks or latinos.

If you look at the murder rate for white middle/upper class folk, you'll
find its
quite comparable to Britain and other European countries. No person
I have ever known personally has fallen to murder, a statement which
I expect could be made by most the American posters to this list.

While it's sad that people don't factor in the societal risks borne by
'other groups' in this country, it's just human nature.

Peter Trei




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Mar 20 11:33:47 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:33:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC2C@exna07.securitydynam  ics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103201045370.24362-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

>Ken: 
>
>I'm sure the apparent discounting of the US murder rate by some American
>list members seems inexplicable to you. At the risk of being extremely 
>non-PC, I think I can explain why.
>
>The distribution of murders in the US is very heavily skewed towards
>groups which are unlikely to be on the list, or acquainted to people
>on the list. In short, there is a large disparity in the murder rates for
>white, educated professionals (who make up most the membership of
>this list) vs poor blacks or latinos.

This is true.  There's a huge disparity between what I see now 
and what I saw when I was really poor and had no degree.

>If you look at the murder rate for white middle/upper class folk, you'll
>find its
>quite comparable to Britain and other European countries. No person
>I have ever known personally has fallen to murder, a statement which
>I expect could be made by most the American posters to this list.

I can't say that for sure...  I have had a friend from high school 
killed in what was later called an accident in a court of law.  But 
I think it's at least fifty percent likely that the court was wrong, 
or applying the standard of a "reasonable doubt" in a case where 
there wasn't enough solid evidence for a conviction.  

But I have had several people I've been close to die for some reason 
other than natural causes.  Mostly they just made mistakes with 
heavy machinery.  Mistakes with guns, by contrast, are mostly non-
fatal. People who did that blew off a few toes or messed up a hand 
or got some birdshot in their leg off a ricochet or something. 

Note that reputation is alive in that society; if it becomes known 
that you have made mistakes with guns, you are likely to find that 
no one wants to be your friend because you're likely to die or kill 
one of your friends accidentally. So it is often regarded as a 
shameful secret, and often people with minor gun wounds (such as 
a few pellets of birdshot from a ricochet) don't seek treatment 
for fear of the embarassment.

As Peter says, now that I live in the world of "educated professionals" 
such things simply don't happen to the people I know today. 

>While it's sad that people don't factor in the societal risks borne by
>'other groups' in this country, it's just human nature.

In a grim fascinating way, it's just efficient use of human lives
as a resource in capital production.  Those who have the money, and
hence the power, are the ones who've most efficiently used their lives 
to produce capital. Most of them have made most of their production by 
causing others to be marginally more efficient under their management, 
but the principle is sound. They are protected, reflexively, by the 
organism of a human society and the very 'human nature' that you 
just mentioned.  If they were not so protected, we would probably
be a lot less efficient at producing functioning societies.  This 
is because we can't afford the loss of those who understand how to 
produce capital.  And we can't afford to protect all people as well 
as that group is protected. I do not claim that this is good, but 
as the pygmies say, "Eyali djamba.  Njamba, eyaliboye."  Roughly 
translated, "That's the jungle.  That's the way it is." 

And folks, the poor people, the ones who stop to think about it 
anyway, they know the score.  They know that nobody's going to 
have heads of state come to their funerals, or write books about 
what they have to say, or erect monuments when they die, and 
when they think about it, they know why.  If you don't have 
wealth, you have no proof that you've earned the right to matter.  

There are billions of them and they know damn well that as far 
as the people who matter are concerned any one of them can replace 
any other.  As someone from a family that lived well below the 
poverty line the whole time I was growing up, I can report that 
that much gets drilled into you in a thousand ways as a child and 
understanding it and accepting it is a large part of what it means, 
among poor folk, to be an adult.  

				Bear
		(who has relatives that still think of him 
		as childish, stubborn, and pigheaded for 
		trying to reach a different place in the 
		grand scheme of things...)





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Mar 20 09:23:03 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:23:03 -0500
Subject: Did you notice
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC2D@exna07.securitydynamics.com>




> ----------
> From: 	Reese[SMTP:reeza at flex.com]
> Reply To: 	Reese
> Sent: 	Monday, March 19, 2001 8:05 PM
> To: 	cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Subject: 	Re: Did you notice
> 
> At 10:20 AM 3/19/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>  >Reese wrote:
>  >
>  >> England serves as a fine example here;
>  >
>  >I'm sure it does, but of what?
> 
> Crime rates.
> 
>  >I think the murder rate in Britain is about 1/6 of what it is in the
>  >USA. (I mean rate, not actual numbers, this is not a 28% paternity
>  >error). And the proportion of people killed accidentally is far lower
>  >here as well.  We are perhaps a fine example of finding ways to live
>  >longer?
> 
> Peter Trei just posted a url to an Economist story, and THIS, lists just
> about everything BUT murder: 
> http://itn.co.uk/news/20010116/britain/06crime.shtml - so what's the rest
> of the story?
> 
> Reese
> 
Well, you could try http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
While this is on a page advocating gun ownership, the statistics cited
are from non-partisan sources.

For some breakdown of US homicides by race, try 
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39235bd43dd9.htm
once again, this is a partisan page, but the stats straight from
the US Gov.  (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm)

This suggests that the US murder rate for whites is about 
3 per 100,000, vs 1.41 (total) for England/Wales

Only about 15% of murders in the US are by strangers, so
if you don't feel that your relatives and acquaintences are
particularly likely to bump you off, the murder rate you worry
about ("How likely am *I* to be killed today?") is very, very
low. Even if it's double the UK rate, doubling a very low number
gives you another very low number.

Doesn't anyone besides myself know how to use a search 
engine, or check numbers before posting?

Peter Trei





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Mar 20 09:23:03 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:23:03 -0500
Subject: Did you notice
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC2D@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> ----------
> From: 	Reese[SMTP:reeza at flex.com]
> Reply To: 	Reese
> Sent: 	Monday, March 19, 2001 8:05 PM
> To: 	cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Subject: 	Re: Did you notice
> 
> At 10:20 AM 3/19/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>  >Reese wrote:
>  >
>  >> England serves as a fine example here;
>  >
>  >I'm sure it does, but of what?
> 
> Crime rates.
> 
>  >I think the murder rate in Britain is about 1/6 of what it is in the
>  >USA. (I mean rate, not actual numbers, this is not a 28% paternity
>  >error). And the proportion of people killed accidentally is far lower
>  >here as well.  We are perhaps a fine example of finding ways to live
>  >longer?
> 
> Peter Trei just posted a url to an Economist story, and THIS, lists just
> about everything BUT murder: 
> http://itn.co.uk/news/20010116/britain/06crime.shtml - so what's the rest
> of the story?
> 
> Reese
> 
Well, you could try http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
While this is on a page advocating gun ownership, the statistics cited
are from non-partisan sources.

For some breakdown of US homicides by race, try 
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39235bd43dd9.htm
once again, this is a partisan page, but the stats straight from
the US Gov.  (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm)

This suggests that the US murder rate for whites is about 
3 per 100,000, vs 1.41 (total) for England/Wales

Only about 15% of murders in the US are by strangers, so
if you don't feel that your relatives and acquaintences are
particularly likely to bump you off, the murder rate you worry
about ("How likely am *I* to be killed today?") is very, very
low. Even if it's double the UK rate, doubling a very low number
gives you another very low number.

Doesn't anyone besides myself know how to use a search 
engine, or check numbers before posting?

Peter Trei




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 20 14:25:49 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:25:49 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320161535.5925U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFEEKIDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote:

>	Amendment VI
> 
> In all criminal prosecutions...

This was a civil case.


 S a n d y




From reeza at flex.com  Tue Mar 20 17:29:14 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:29:14 -1000
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC2D@exna07.securitydyna
 mics.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010320152447.00db58f0@flex.com>


At 12:23 PM 3/20/01 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:

 >Well, you could try http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
 >While this is on a page advocating gun ownership, the statistics cited
 >are from non-partisan sources.
 >
 >For some breakdown of US homicides by race, try
 >http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39235bd43dd9.htm
 >once again, this is a partisan page, but the stats straight from
 >the US Gov.  (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm)

Aye, thanks for the links,,,

more fuel for the fire - Britain may ban toys: 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1207000/1207355.stm

 >Doesn't anyone besides myself know how to use a search
 >engine, or check numbers before posting?

Sure, but I wanted to know why the earlier url I posted DID NOT mention
murder rates, along with all the violent crime it did list.  Anyone can
find out what the numbers are, but will those numbers tell the story of
why the most violent of violent crimes was elided from that story?

Reese




From aluger at hushmail.com  Tue Mar 20 15:29:20 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:29:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online   'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
Message-ID: <200103202327.PAA17193@user1.hushmail.com>


At Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:14:45 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com> 
wrote:

>
>On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>
>> Jim wrote:
>> 
>> >	Amendment VI
>> > 
>> > In all criminal prosecutions...
>> 
>> This was a civil case.
>
>Which raises an interesting point, 'defemation' is presented as a 'crime'
>yet it is managed in a 'civil' case, thus denying critical civil liberties
>to the person being acted against.

What ARE you talking about?

And where did you get your law degree from?
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 20 15:31:14 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:31:14 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320170753.5925f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFCEKLDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>
> > Jim wrote:
> >
> > >	Amendment VI
> > >
> > > In all criminal prosecutions...
> >
> > This was a civil case.
>
> Which raises an interesting point,
> 'defemation' is presented as a 'crime'
> yet it is managed in a 'civil' case,
> thus denying critical civil liberties
> to the person being acted against.

Under the common law, defamation is a tort, not a crime.  Though some
jurisdictions may have a parallel criminal statute against defamation, when
one party sues another, it's civil, not criminal.

A good analogy would be "battery."  Under the common law, the cause of
action called battery was defined as an unwanted touching.  Case law has
filled out that definition with examples, exceptions, etc.

Most US jurisdiction also have a crime called battery.  So if you hit me,
the cops can arrest you and prosecute you for the crime of battery.
Independently, I may sue you for the common law tort of battery.

Remember OJ?--criminally prosecuted for murder, civilly sued for wrongful
death.  He skated on the first, lost on the second.  Why?  Different
standards of proof.  When the state goes after you, they have to prove their
case "beyond a reasonable doubt."  When an individual sues you, they have to
prove their case "by the preponderance of the evidence."  In engineering
terms, 98% vs. 51%.

All the rest that Jim wrote is gobbledygook derived from a misunderstanding
of how the common law works.


 S a n d y




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Mar 20 16:01:18 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:01:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in
 Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320170753.5925f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103201551510.11406-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>Of course it's British history would indicate it was really used by the
>rich to punish those less fortunate but verbally active. Aren't laws in
>the US supposed to answer to the Constitution and not British legal
>precedence?


I know you're not going to like this, Jim, but cases that were 
tried in Rome a couple thousand years ago are still considered 
as part of the body of precedent.  You thought there was no 
reason why lawyers learned Latin?  

The line of precedent runs back across the 230-odd years of 
America, hits a speed-bump at the constitution, goes back to 
several centuries of British cases (French cases if you happen 
to live in Louisiana), hits another speed bump at the magna 
carta, and then cruises further back from there into Italian 
courts, from there into Roman courts, and even in a few cases 
goes back further than that to the old Greek courts.  It's 
all in there, dude. The history of our particular branch of 
civilization in microcosm.

				Bear







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 20 14:22:27 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:22:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103200812150.455-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320161535.5925U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> >In what was apparently the first Internet defamation case to involve both
> >an anonymous plaintiff and anonymous defendants, the Supreme Court of
> >Virginia refused to grant an unidentified company access to America
> >Online's confidential subscriber information unless the firm agreed to
> >reveal its identity.
> 
> I'm missing something here.  How is it even possible for an anonymous 
> plaintiff to show defamation?  Defamation is identity-linked.

More importantly, you can't bring a criminal complaint anonymously...

                                Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy
and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the
crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously
ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the
accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have
compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the
Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 20 15:14:45 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:14:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFEEKIDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320170753.5925f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Jim wrote:
> 
> >	Amendment VI
> > 
> > In all criminal prosecutions...
> 
> This was a civil case.

Which raises an interesting point, 'defemation' is presented as a 'crime'
yet it is managed in a 'civil' case, thus denying critical civil liberties
to the person being acted against.

Somebody should look into filing a civil rights case on the
constitutionality of treating a 'crime against a person' (ie ruin their
reputation) as a civil case (ie mainly resolving disputes and assigning
responsibility, not generaly considered crimes.)

Of course it's British history would indicate it was really used by the
rich to punish those less fortunate but verbally active. Aren't laws in
the US supposed to answer to the Constitution and not British legal
precedence?

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 20 17:17:29 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:17:29 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320183404.5925l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFAEKODCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote:

> What is the reason the civil statute exists?
> Because some 'damage' has occured.

Wrong.  Damages have always been contemplated under the common law tort
system.  There are numerous and complex reasons that some torts have also
been "criminalized."

> Ultimately the real question is:
>
> Is it constitutional to differentiate the
> rights with respect to speech between civil
> and criminal cases?

Sure, the Constitution is a document that outlines and limits the power of
the state over the individual.  The common law is the summation of the
rights and responsibilities as between individuals.  Apples & oranges.


 S a n d y




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 20 16:32:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:32:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103201551510.11406-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320183124.5925k-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



No kiddin'....

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

[insulting stupidity deleted]





From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 20 18:37:28 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:37:28 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320194248.5925m-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFGEKPDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote:

> Where does the Constitution allow common law?
> [It clearly does but I'd like to see the spot
> you believe is the authoritative statement.]

Irrelevant, Jim has already conceded the point in his parenthetic aside.

> What does it say that common law must be
> predicated upon? [Hint: what must ALL US
> law be predicated upon?]

Natural rights, at least that's what the framers of the Constitution
believed.

> Does Justinian, or English law qualify?

Other than the oddity of Louisiana, Puerto Rico and the like, there is no US
jurisdiction based on civil law, only the English common law.  One might as
well bring up the law of gravity as the civil law in this discussion.

> Now, if Congress can't constitutionaly create
> criminal law relating to speech where does it
> say it allows such an exception for civil?

Civil what?  The question makes no sense because it assumes facts not in
evidence.  Civil remedies are under the common law are created by courts not
legislatures.

> Does "...shall make no law..." not include
> civil law?

a) Other than Louisiana, etc., there is no civil law jurisdictions in the
US.  Specifically, the federal courts are based on the common law system

b) The word Jim left out was "Congress" ("CONGRESS shall make no law..."
The common law is a creature of the courts, not legislatures.

> It is clear that regulating speech is NOT
> prohibited from the states originaly.
> However, we now have a specific amendment
> that spreads those strictures to the states.
> So, in a situation where the fed's and the
> state's are prohibited, per the 10th, who
> get's to decide the issue?

The courts.

> Do we have anybody suggesting a 'civil tort
> exception' amendment?

Not required.  Torts are not enacted by Congress.

> ...I don't think anybody even looked at it
> from that perspective.

Yeah, I think that's safe to say.  :-D


 S a n d y




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 20 16:45:49 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:45:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFCEKLDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320183404.5925l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Under the common law, defamation is a tort, not a crime.  Though some
> jurisdictions may have a parallel criminal statute against defamation, when
> one party sues another, it's civil, not criminal.
> 
> A good analogy would be "battery."  Under the common law, the cause of
> action called battery was defined as an unwanted touching.  Case law has
> filled out that definition with examples, exceptions, etc.
> 
> Most US jurisdiction also have a crime called battery.  So if you hit me,
> the cops can arrest you and prosecute you for the crime of battery.
> Independently, I may sue you for the common law tort of battery.

But there's a primary difference you skim right over....damages.

What is the reason the civil statute exists? Because some 'damage' has
occured. An 'infringement' if you want. The criminal case results from the
'breach of the peace'. The civil case is so the 'defendent' (in this case
the person hit) may recover the cost of living with the consequences of
anothers action upon them (something that is clearly outside the scope of 
the 'criminal' law).

One question would be "Is it constitutional to apply a civil law which is
meant to work in parallel with a criminal statute by itself?"

Clearly in a country with the 1st you can't sue somebody, civil or
criminal, simply for what they say. You must prove that it is untrue and
has caused damages, irrespective of civil or criminal. The only question
is the standard. As somebody said recently, it's really fraud.

Now how can one, simply by changing the name (fraud -> defemation), move a
criminal offence into a civil tort under the 1st?

Is the standard constitutional? How can the civil crime of 'defemation'
even be brought in a civil court under the 1st? There is clearly no
parallel standard such as 'shouting fire in a theatre' with respect to a
threat to the population in general. The courts have held that the law is
not there specifically to protect the individual, but rather 'society'.

Ultimately the real question is:

Is it constitutional to differentiate the rights with respect to speech
between civil and criminal cases?

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sandfort at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 20 19:12:01 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:12:01 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320210135.5925o-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFIELADCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote:

> > Irrelevant, Jim has already conceded the
> > point in his parenthetic aside.
>
> Not at all, the question is what YOU believe.
> Not what I believe.

What I or Jim, believe is irrelevant in the
current context.  Jim, the courts and I all
agree that Anglo-American jurisprudence is
based on the common law, the Constitution
notwithstanding.  That's good enough for me.

> > > What does it say that common law must be
> > > predicated upon? [Hint: what must ALL US
> > > law be predicated upon?]
> >
> > Natural rights, at least that's what the
> > framers of the Constitution believed.
>
> Where in the Constitution is the term
> 'natural rights' used?

Please re-read my sentence.

> I'm not the one who starting quibling over
> what 'civil law' meant. You're the one who
> brought up the distinction.

Actually, you brought it up in a mish-mosh or pseudolegalisms.  I just
clarified the issue.

> > Civil remedies are under the common law
> > are created by courts not legislatures.
>
> EXACTLY my point, thank you for recognising
> it so openly.

You're welcome, unfortunately, your analysis is still flawed.

> Now go read the Constitution about law, and
> courts. Who in this country is the ONLY two
> groups that can make law? One is the states
> through constitutional amendments. There's
> one other and it ain't a court.

Right.  You are confusing "statutes" and precedents.  Courts don't enact
laws, but they do create the "common law" through precedents.  Apples &
oranges, again.

> [rest of your wanna-be-tricky word play aside]

Well, if you mean wanna-be lawyer, been there, done that.


 S a n d y




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Tue Mar 20 19:28:14 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:28:14 -0800
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316143337.00d3cb40@flex.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316143337.00d3cb40@flex.com>
Message-ID: <p04320403b6ddcff2bf00@[65.5.86.210]>


At 14:35 -1000  on  3/16/01, Reese wrote:
>At 05:45 PM 3/16/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>
>>In the FBI stats that came out the majority of police officers killed are
>>killed with their own gun? They'd probably been better served by a
>>stun-vest...

It's also worth noting that, that statistic is "Of officer's killed 
with a gun most are killed with _________".  Most police officer's 
die from car accidents.
-- 

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas
____________________________________________________________________
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
<mailto:kelliott at mac.com>                             ICQ#23758827 




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Mar 20 19:41:00 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:41:00 -0800
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC2C@exna07.securitydyna
 mics.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010320193434.0208fa30@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 11:08 AM 3/20/2001 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
 > I'm sure the apparent discounting of the US murder rate by some
 > American list members seems inexplicable to you. At the risk of
 > being extremely non-PC, I think I can explain why.
 >
 > The distribution of murders in the US is very heavily skewed towards
 > groups which are unlikely to be on the list, or acquainted to people
 > on the list. In short, there is a large disparity in the murder
 > rates for white, educated professionals (who make up most the
 > membership of this list) vs poor blacks or latinos.


Most of the murders are committed by blacks and latinos, especially blacks 
and most of the victims are blacks and latinos.

The black murder rate, though extraordinarily high by western standards, is 
lower than that of typical black countries, for example it is lower than 
that black countries near the US, such as Jamaica or Haiti.

The murder rate among white Americans is comparable to the murder rate 
among white canadians, and the murder rate among black Americans is 
comparable to the murder rate among black canadians.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      CRLWmdwmh8GdPNOQ5k/+rr34Pbyvm3AHVpJPEIXN
      4/UjXVePKYjivInLg/HQx7LX1Z0RzehMcd+AqFpay




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Tue Mar 20 19:41:23 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:41:23 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in
 Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320170753.5925f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320170753.5925f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <p04320406b6ddd31e7de3@[65.5.86.210]>


At 17:14 -0600  on  3/20/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>Which raises an interesting point, 'defemation' is presented as a 'crime'
>yet it is managed in a 'civil' case, thus denying critical civil liberties
>to the person being acted against.

How is it presented as a crime?
1. You can't go to jail for it.
2. The government won't prosecute you for it.

Doesn't sound like a crime to me...
-- 

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas
____________________________________________________________________
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
<mailto:kelliott at mac.com>                             ICQ#23758827 




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Tue Mar 20 19:46:18 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:46:18 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in
 Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320210135.5925o-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320210135.5925o-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <p04320407b6ddd44cc4f1@[65.5.86.210]>


At 21:07 -0600  on  3/20/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>EXACTLY my point, thank you for recognising it so openly. Now go read the
>Constitution about law, and courts. Who in this country is the ONLY two
>groups that can make law? One is the states through constitutional
>amendments. There's one other and it ain't a court.

AND State legislatures AND state courts.  Civil law is not a federal 
function.  Notice that in the case that started this whole discussion 
a state court refused standing.
-- 

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas
____________________________________________________________________
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
<mailto:kelliott at mac.com>                             ICQ#23758827 




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Tue Mar 20 19:55:58 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:55:58 -0800
Subject: Interpreting the Constitution
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314173251.5925J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010314173251.5925J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <p04320409b6ddd516f45a@[65.5.86.210]>


At 17:36 -0600  on  3/14/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>Per the 10'th: Where in there (ie Section 2 in particular) does it say
>that ANY court has the job of determining the meaning of the Constitution?

>      Section. 2.
>      The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity,
>      arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States,
>      and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their
>      Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public
>      Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime
>      Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall
>      be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--
>      between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens
>      of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming
>      Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or
>      the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

It begins here and is extended by the 14th.  A judges job is to apply 
the law to the case presented to him.  For all federal judges (and 
today state judges) the law is a stack of rulings by other courts and 
laws based by legislative bodies.
For a federal court the stack is

The Constitution.
The accumulated federal statues
Case law

For state courts we have

The Constitution (per the 14th)
State Law
Case law

Any layer can be overridden by the layer above it, so state and 
federal judges are expected to take all layers into account to 
minimize the number of rulings that have to overturned on appeal.  It 
is also expected that lower courts take a more strict view of the law 
than appellate courts as the appellate courts job is to rule on 
points of law while the lower court is a primarily a finder of fact 
with ruling on law a secondary role (the difference between appellate 
and original jurisdiction).
-- 

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas
____________________________________________________________________
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
<mailto:kelliott at mac.com>                             ICQ#23758827 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 20 18:00:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:00:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFAEKODCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320194248.5925m-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Jim wrote:
> 
> > What is the reason the civil statute exists?
> > Because some 'damage' has occured.
> 
> Wrong.  Damages have always been contemplated under the common law tort
> system.  There are numerous and complex reasons that some torts have also
> been "criminalized."

There are two common (and legally acceptable) definitions for 'civil law'.

The first is any set of law based on Justinian (ie Roman Law) and the
second is non-criminal law.

But let's focus on 'civil action' for a moment, a reasonable definition
for this might be,

A legal proceeding instituted to enforce private, civil right or remedy,
as distinguished from a criminal prosecution.

Now what do each of those first three have in common?

A redress of grievance, a righting of a wrong. The distinction is that it
relates to 'individuals' rather than society as a whole (ie criminal).

Why torts may or may not have been criminilized isn't at issue.

Whether a law violates a civil right guaranteed in the Constitution isn't
predicated upon it being civil or criminal. That it exists is all that is
relevant.

> > Ultimately the real question is:
> >
> > Is it constitutional to differentiate the
> > rights with respect to speech between civil
> > and criminal cases?
> 
> Sure, the Constitution is a document that outlines and limits the power of
> the state over the individual.  The common law is the summation of the
> rights and responsibilities as between individuals.  Apples & oranges.

Where does the Constitution allow common law? [It clearly does but I'd
like to see the spot you believe is the authoritative statement.]

What does it say that common law must be predicated upon?
[Hint: what must ALL US law be predicated upon?]

Does Justinian, or English law qualify?

When did Congress pass such a law?

Now, if Congress can't constitutionaly create criminal law relating to
speech where does it say it allows such an exception for civil? Does
"...shall make no law..." not include civil law? Does the constitution say
"You don't have a right to lie."?

I claim the right to 'lie' (re 9th)

Fed's want to regulate it? (re 10th)

It is clear that regulating speech is NOT prohibited from the states
originaly. However, we now have a specific amendment that spreads those
strictures to the states. So, in a situation where the fed's and the
state's are prohibited, per the 10th, who get's to decide the issue?

Do we have anybody suggesting a 'civil tort exception' amendment?

[ Note that my personal belief is that this is a 'bug' in the
  Constitution, something they didn't intend. I don't think anybody
  even looked at it from that perspective. ]

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 18:41:15 2001
From: LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com (LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:41:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nude, FREE, Live AMATEURS!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210241.UAA29488@metrodome.citilink.com>


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From LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 18:41:17 2001
From: LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com (LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:41:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nude, FREE, Live AMATEURS!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210241.UAA29490@metrodome.citilink.com>


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From LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 18:41:20 2001
From: LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com (LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:41:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nude, FREE, Live AMATEURS!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210241.UAA29492@metrodome.citilink.com>


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From LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 18:41:21 2001
From: LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com (LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:41:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nude, FREE, Live AMATEURS!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210241.UAA29500@metrodome.citilink.com>


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From LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 18:41:23 2001
From: LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com (LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:41:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nude, FREE, Live AMATEURS!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210241.UAA29504@metrodome.citilink.com>


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From LiveJennyNUDEXXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 18:41:25 2001
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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:41:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nude, FREE, Live AMATEURS!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210241.UAA29510@metrodome.citilink.com>


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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:41:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nude, FREE, Live AMATEURS!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210241.UAA29514@metrodome.citilink.com>


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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:41:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nude, FREE, Live AMATEURS!!!!!!
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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:42:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nude, FREE, Live AMATEURS!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210242.UAA29596@metrodome.citilink.com>


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From kravietz at aba.krakow.pl  Tue Mar 20 11:53:56 2001
From: kravietz at aba.krakow.pl (Pawel Krawczyk)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:53:56 +0100
Subject: Czech cryptologists discover bug in OpenPGP format
Message-ID: <20010320205356.H316@aba.krakow.pl>


http://www.i.cz/en/onas/tisk4.html


                      Press Release Prague, 20.3.2001
   
Cryptologists from Czech company ICZ detected serious security vulnerability
                       of an international magnitude
                                      
   A bug has been found in worldwide used security format OpenPGP. The
   bug can lead to discovery of user's private keys used in digital
   signature systems. OpenPGP format is widely used in many applications
   used worldwide, including extremely popular programs like PGPTM, GNU
   Privacy Guard, and others. The bug detection comes on the right time,
   as Philip Zimmermann, the creator of PGP program, has left Network
   Associates, Inc. and aims to boost OpenPGP format in other products
   for privacy security on Internet. From the scientific point of view,
   the discovery goes far beyond actual programs - it has wider
   theoretical and practical impact.
   Two Czech cryptologists, Vlastimil Klima and Tomas Rosa, from a
   company Decros (member of ICZ group) detected insufficient security
   protection of private signature keys while working on a research for
   the Czech National Security Authority. The private signature key is
   the most sensitive and therefore the most protected information in all
   digital signature systems. The attack is described in detail in a
   research report to be released shortly on Internet (http://www.i.cz)
   in both Czech and English.
   The attack on OpenPGP format leading to discovery of DSA and RSA
   private signature keys is described in the research report. OpenPGP
   format is being proposed as an Internet standard for exact definition
   of content and meaning of data records, in relation to encryption and
   to digital signature.
   This format is used not only in groups of programs called PGPTM, but
   also in other applications, including GNU Privacy Guard. The list of
   products based on OpenPGP is available on Internet at
   [1]http://www.pgpi.org/products. OpenPGP format and all the
   applications need to be reviewed the same way as the PGPTM program
   itself.
   The attack was successfully verified and demonstrated on PGPTM(*)
   version 7.0.3 using AES and DH/DSS algorithms, which are deservedly
   being considered as highly secure.
   This serious bug is caused by incorrect implementation of the
   above-mentioned strong cryptographic techniques. The private signature
   key is the basic and the most sensitive information in the whole
   system. The user is using it for digital signature. In all systems,
   including OpenPGP, it is therefore protected by a strong cipher. AES,
   one of the latest strong algorithms, has been used in the attacked
   system. However, the protection appears to be illusory.
   The authors proved that attackers do not need to attack the strong
   cipher itself. They can simply bypass it as well as the secret user's
   passphrase. A slight modification of the private key file followed by
   capturing a signed message is enough to break the private key. These
   tasks can be performed without knowledge of the user's passphrase.
   After that, a special program can be run on any office PC. Based on
   the captured message, the program is able to calculate the user's
   private key in half a second. The attacker can then sign any messages
   instead of the attacked user. Despite of very quick calculation, the
   program is based on a special cryptographic know-how.
   Insufficient security of public and private parts of signature keys in
   OpenPGP format has been analyzed for DSA and RSA algorithms. The
   step-by-step description of the attack on both private signature keys
   is being demonstrated. The attacks apply to all RSA and DSA parameter
   lengths (modules, keys).
   The demonstrated attacks have a strong impact on security of the
   programs mentioned above. To complete the attack, it is not always
   necessary to visit the attacked user's workstation. The vulnerability
   of the system is also in the files with exported private keys used by
   the user for transferring the keys between workstations. The fact that
   the private key is stored in an encrypted form can cause an illusory
   feeling of security. If this file or diskette is captured by an
   attacker during the transfer, the security of user's private key is in
   serious danger.
   We can often see that users store private key files on shared devices
   on a network to maintain easy access. Knowing that the key is
   protected by a strong cipher, the user considers such storage to be
   safe enough. The authors proved that this feeling is illusory.
   Typically, the server administrator can be the attacker.
   Knowing the details of the demonstrated attack, the user of programs
   based on OpenPGP is in a difficult situation when he/she realizes that
   an invalid signature value has been generated. The user cannot be sure
   whether this happened because of the attack, or 'just' because of a
   technical failure. It is obvious that every file with an invalid
   signature has to be handled carefully, the same way as a file with the
   private key in open form! This includes careful secure wiping of the
   file from the workstation or the server.
   The completed analysis of the OpenPGP format has discovered serious
   defects that make OpenPGP based applications vulnerable. The practical
   example is PGPTM program which is not resistant to the attack on DSA
   algorithm. However, the program is resistant to the attack on RSA
   algorithm because of additional protections beyond OpenPGP format.
   Though the attack relates to RSA and DSA algorithms in OpenPGP,
   similar vulnerabilities can be expected in other asymmetrical
   cryptographic systems, including systems based on elliptic curves.
   OpenPGP format and PGPTM program are likely not the only examples of
   systems that can be attacked because of insufficient protection of the
   parameters mentioned above. In the end of their research report, the
   authors propose cryptographic measures correcting OpenPGP format and
   PGPTM program as well. They strongly appeal for very careful design of
   cryptographic systems.
   
   Contact:
   ICZ a.s.
   V Olšinách 75
   100 97 Prague 10
   [2]http://www.i.cz Miroslav Votruba
   Marketing Director ICZ
   Tel.: 02/81 00 21 43
   e-mail: [3]m.votruba at i.cz
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   (*) Note: PGP is registered trade mark of Network Associates, Inc. All
       other registered and not registered trade marks listed in this
              document are owned by their appropriate owners.

References

   1. http://www.pgpi.org/products
   2. http://www.i.cz/
   3. mailto:m.votruba at i.cz

-- 
Paweł Krawczyk *** home: <http://ceti.pl/~kravietz/>
security: <http://ipsec.pl/>  *** fidonet: 2:486/23




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 20 19:07:59 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:07:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  'John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFGEKPDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320210135.5925o-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Jim wrote:
> 
> > Where does the Constitution allow common law?
> > [It clearly does but I'd like to see the spot
> > you believe is the authoritative statement.]
> 
> Irrelevant, Jim has already conceded the point in his parenthetic aside.

Not at all, the question is what YOU believe. Not what I believe.

Unless you're willing to concede my point now?

I didn't think so. Now, you wanna keep dancin'?

> > What does it say that common law must be
> > predicated upon? [Hint: what must ALL US
> > law be predicated upon?]
> 
> Natural rights, at least that's what the framers of the Constitution
> believed.

Where in the Constitution is the term 'natural rights' used? The
Declaration of Independence talks of natural rights, and it's not
recognized as a basis for any law. There are two places in the
Constitution that describe how laws will be predicated.

> > Does Justinian, or English law qualify?
> 
> Other than the oddity of Louisiana, Puerto Rico and the like, there is no US
> jurisdiction based on civil law, only the English common law.  One might as
> well bring up the law of gravity as the civil law in this discussion.

I'm not the one who starting quibling over what 'civil law' meant. You're
the one who brought up the distinction.

My question, and point, still stand.

> > Now, if Congress can't constitutionaly create
> > criminal law relating to speech where does it
> > say it allows such an exception for civil?
> 
> Civil what?  The question makes no sense because it assumes facts not in
> evidence.  Civil remedies are under the common law are created by courts not
> legislatures.

EXACTLY my point, thank you for recognising it so openly. Now go read the
Constitution about law, and courts. Who in this country is the ONLY two
groups that can make law? One is the states through constitutional
amendments. There's one other and it ain't a court.

[rest of your wanna-be-tricky word play aside]

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Mar 20 19:23:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:23:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hints...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010320211237.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



     Section. 1.
     All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a
     Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and
     House of Representatives.

     Section. 8.
     The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
     Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
     Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
     Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

     ...

     To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
     into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested
     by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in
     any Department or Officer thereof.

     Section. 1.
     The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one
     supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may
     from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the
     supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good
     Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services
     a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their
     Continuance in Office.

     Section. 2.
     The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity,
     arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States,
     and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their
     Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public
     Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime
     Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall
     be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--
     between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens
     of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming
     Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or
     the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

                                Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty
dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by
a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States,
than according to the rules of the common law.

                                Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

                                 Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
to the people.

Q: When did Congress pass a law specifically making the 'common law' in
   the 7th Amendment equivalent to English Common Law? And would such a
   law not place a Constitutional filter on the application of such law
   in any case? Once again, why does "...shall make no law..." not
   equate to (common law?) 'Stop' signs?

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 20:55:21 2001
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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:55:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FREE Hardcore XXX, NUDE, Sex!!!!!!!
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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:55:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FREE Hardcore XXX, NUDE, Sex!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210455.WAA10601@metrodome.citilink.com>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by  (FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 at 22:55:26
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

message: <BR><BR>Care to see Girls with other Girls? Guys with other guys??  This HOT, STEAMY, and EROTIC webpage has JUST been released. Brand new with the latest pictures, videos, and LIVE  adult entertainment. <a href="http://www.tekrew.com">Click Here</a> for a look at this extreme hardcore site. There is ABSOLUTELY no obligation for visiting the page, but we are SURE you will be satisfied.  This page contains incredible material and live footage.  Site includes Domination, Submission, Bondage, Gay, Oral, Anal, and plenty more.  Come take a look at what we have to offer. Guaranteed Satisfaction!!!  There are plenty of different sites  to choose from, and you will love EACH one!!!! 


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From FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 20:55:30 2001
From: FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com (FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:55:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FREE Hardcore XXX, NUDE, Sex!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210455.WAA10605@metrodome.citilink.com>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by  (FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 at 22:55:30
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

message: <BR><BR>Care to see Girls with other Girls? Guys with other guys??  This HOT, STEAMY, and EROTIC webpage has JUST been released. Brand new with the latest pictures, videos, and LIVE  adult entertainment. <a href="http://www.tekrew.com">Click Here</a> for a look at this extreme hardcore site. There is ABSOLUTELY no obligation for visiting the page, but we are SURE you will be satisfied.  This page contains incredible material and live footage.  Site includes Domination, Submission, Bondage, Gay, Oral, Anal, and plenty more.  Come take a look at what we have to offer. Guaranteed Satisfaction!!!  There are plenty of different sites  to choose from, and you will love EACH one!!!! 


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From FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 20:55:33 2001
From: FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com (FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:55:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FREE Hardcore XXX, NUDE, Sex!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210455.WAA10620@metrodome.citilink.com>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by  (FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 at 22:55:32
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

message: <BR><BR>Care to see Girls with other Girls? Guys with other guys??  This HOT, STEAMY, and EROTIC webpage has JUST been released. Brand new with the latest pictures, videos, and LIVE  adult entertainment. <a href="http://www.tekrew.com">Click Here</a> for a look at this extreme hardcore site. There is ABSOLUTELY no obligation for visiting the page, but we are SURE you will be satisfied.  This page contains incredible material and live footage.  Site includes Domination, Submission, Bondage, Gay, Oral, Anal, and plenty more.  Come take a look at what we have to offer. Guaranteed Satisfaction!!!  There are plenty of different sites  to choose from, and you will love EACH one!!!! 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 20:55:35 2001
From: FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com (FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:55:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FREE Hardcore XXX, NUDE, Sex!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <200103210455.WAA10636@metrodome.citilink.com>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by  (FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 at 22:55:34
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

message: <BR><BR>Care to see Girls with other Girls? Guys with other guys??  This HOT, STEAMY, and EROTIC webpage has JUST been released. Brand new with the latest pictures, videos, and LIVE  adult entertainment. <a href="http://www.tekrew.com">Click Here</a> for a look at this extreme hardcore site. There is ABSOLUTELY no obligation for visiting the page, but we are SURE you will be satisfied.  This page contains incredible material and live footage.  Site includes Domination, Submission, Bondage, Gay, Oral, Anal, and plenty more.  Come take a look at what we have to offer. Guaranteed Satisfaction!!!  There are plenty of different sites  to choose from, and you will love EACH one!!!! 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 20:56:31 2001
From: FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com (FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:56:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: WWW Form Submission
Message-ID: <200103210456.WAA10737@metrodome.citilink.com>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by  (FREELiveHardSEXX at aol.com) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 at 22:56:30
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From mastermarketing at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 20 22:05:37 2001
From: mastermarketing at earthlink.net (Master Marketing)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:05:37 -0600
Subject: business opportunity
Message-ID: <00fd01c0b1cc$f4a9fe40$0101a8c0@pavilion>

Hi cypherpunks,

My name is Joe and I am the Marketing Director for a company called Due Process. We have been in business for 7 years. Our business is stopping debt collectors from abusing consumers. The author has written 3 books based on the laws of Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. We are traveling across the country spreading the word. We have done national radio shows, blasted all over the world wide web, and posted in major newspapers. My point is this Mike, we are offering you an opportunity to join this crusade and make some money. I am targeting those editors who have built a reputable downline of consumers who need financial help. Most of our major distributors sell 150 to 200 books a month profiting over $80,000 per month. If you are interested, please contact me at the following:
 
Joe Gliha
mastermarketing at earthlink.net
phone: 254-773-1207
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From atek3 at gmx.net  Wed Mar 21 00:10:24 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:10:24 -0800
Subject: PARTY
References: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFOELNDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00b401c0b1de$64cbae60$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


what kind of music?

atek
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandy Sandfort" <sandfort at mindspring.com>
To: "Wayne Rad" <waynerad at hotmail.com>; <cypherpunks at lne.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 3:38 PM
Subject: CDR: PARTY


> Folks,
>
> I will be having a massive costume party right after the RSA conference on
> 13 April (Good Friday the 13th) in San Francisco.  If you would like to
get
> on my party invitation list, drop me a note.
>
>
>  S a n d y
>
>




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Mar 20 23:48:36 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 02:48:36 -0500
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering Software [Censorware]
Message-ID: <v0422080ab6de0d415d4e@[198.4.94.177]>


Both the American Civil Liberties Union and The American Library 
Association filed suit 3-20-2001 in Federal court to stop the 
Children's Internet Protection Act (CHIPA).  This is the act that 
forces libraries and schools to use filtering software (censorware). 
You can read both complaints here:

ACLU http://www.aclu.org/court/multnomah.pdf

ALA http://www.ala.org/cipa/cipacomplaint.pdf

Filtering software has been pushed as the solution to stopping 
children from viewing inappropriate materials, like pornography, on 
the Internet.  However, the software has numerous flaws, the most 
basic being that it doesn't stop all of the pornography.  More 
ominously, and more of a threat to our long term liberty is the fact 
that the software in many cases "blacklists" political and other 
material incorrectly.  Seth Finkelstein, who just won the Electronic 
Freedom Foundation's Pioneer Award, details a few gun related sites 
that are blacklisted.  If a school or library had the SmartFilter 
program installed, students would be blocked from viewing those 
sites.  As a point of information-  http://www.ayoob.com which is 
listed as "extreme" is the site run by the noted Police firearm's 
Instructor Massad Ayoob.  The site is His Lethal Force Institute, 
which trains qualified citizens and police in armed self defense 
techniques.  The other sites, are listed under the category of 
criminal skills.  http://www.springfield-armory.com is the site for 
Springfield Armory an American producer of fine firearms.  My 
recommendation is that everyone enter their favorite site's url at: 
http://www.securecomputing.com/cgi-bin/filter_whereV3.cgi  and see if 
their site or company is blocked.  Then I'd take whatever action, 
including the courts to have the incorrect designation removed.

Regards,  Matthew Gaylor-

[Please post this to other RKBA forums and elsewhere if relevant.]



From update2103 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 21:23:38 2001
From: update2103 at yahoo.com (update2103 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 05:23:38 +0000
Subject: Important Update!!!!
Message-ID: <E14fazq-0005Q7-00@mailhost.netscapeonline.co.uk>


How would you like to join a company that is growing
at a rate unseen before!!!

If you get in by the end of the month you will be able 
to take advantage of opportunities only available NOW!!!

What's more it is very easy!!
No need to find 200 people to join with you,
All you need to do is refer 5 people
and you could earn $500 a day and thousands
of FREE air miles to use at your discretion!!!

Incase you're a hard worker, the more people you 
can bring in the more money you can make per day.
Imagine making $5000 a day!!! Nice thought......

Now stop thinking and start acting!

Reply to this email with "5000 a day" and I will show
you how you can make as much money as you like!

update2103 at yahoo.com

----------------------------------------------------------------
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If you would like to be removed from this list please reply with 
"remove" as the subject. Sorry for any inconvenience caused.
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From hseaver at ameritech.net  Wed Mar 21 05:01:42 2001
From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:01:42 -0600
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering Software[Censorware]
References: <v0422080ab6de0d415d4e@[198.4.94.177]>
Message-ID: <3AB8A632.9C2DDA30@ameritech.net>


        I just checked www.anonymizer.com --- they are blocked. So anon
speech is dangerous for kids and library patrons, eh?




From bear at sonic.net  Wed Mar 21 07:44:29 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:44:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering Software[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <3AB8A632.9C2DDA30@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210737410.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




The reason anonymizer is blocked is because it functions as a proxy 
via which one can get to (presumably) any page on the web.  The 
alternative would be to block *every* URL many times: once for the 
regular URL and once for the one that starts with www.anonymizer.com
and once for each of the other proxy-type services out there (any 
number of places where you can surf the web in swedish chef, pig-latin, 
jive, backwards, via language translation, etc, work basically the 
same way - and I bet they're all blocked too).  

I don't think it's anonymous speech they object to; it's all the 
millions of proscribed sites that can be browsed via anonymizer. 

				Bear


On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>        I just checked www.anonymizer.com --- they are blocked. So anon
>speech is dangerous for kids and library patrons, eh?
>




From bear at sonic.net  Wed Mar 21 07:46:22 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:46:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering Software [Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <v0422080ab6de0d415d4e@[198.4.94.177]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

>Both the American Civil Liberties Union and The American Library 
>Association filed suit 3-20-2001 in Federal court to stop the 
>Children's Internet Protection Act (CHIPA).  This is the act that 
>forces libraries and schools to use filtering software (censorware). 

Oddly enough, the san francisco public libraries are reading it 
as an act that prevents them from getting federal funds for 
internet access instead. 

				Bear




From Quality at HOST.com  Wed Mar 21 05:57:47 2001
From: Quality at HOST.com (Quality at HOST.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:57:47 -0600
Subject: Always wanted your own .com name?  get it now!
Message-ID: <200103211357.f2LDvlA18579@www.o2host.com>

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From apowell at freedomforum.org  Wed Mar 21 05:12:11 2001
From: apowell at freedomforum.org (Adam Powell)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:12:11 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.381.1576007505.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Declan,

Here's the program URL:

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=13366

Thanks!
Adam

**********
   
   The First Amendment Online conference
   
   March 22, 2001, co-sponsored by the Online News Association
   
   03.01.01
   
   Printer-friendly page
   
   At First Amendment Center/New York, 580 Madison Ave.
   To RSVP: Call 212/317-7592 or email Euraine Brooks at
   ebrooks at freedomforum.org.
   
   Noon -- Lunch program: Free Expression and the Net
   
     Welcome: Adam Clayton Powell III, vice president/technology and
   programs, The Freedom Forum
   
     Jill Blackman, Chicago Tribune, Online News Association
   
     Speaker: Li Lu, founder and general partner, Himalaya Capital
   
   1:45 p.m. -- Technology demonstration: Mobile Journalist's Workstation
   of the Future
   
     John Pavlik, Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism
   
     Elias Gagas, Columbia University School of Engineering
   
   2:15 -- First Amendment Parity and New Media
   
     Moderator: Karl Idsvoog, 1stAmendmentInvestigations.com
   
     Robert Corn-Revere, Hogan and Hartson L.L.P.
   
     Declan McCullagh, Wired News
   
     Peggy Miles, International Webcasting Association
   
     Omar Wasow, blackplanet.com
   
   3:15 -- Technology Demonstration: Immersive News
   
     Larry Pryor, University of Southern California, Annenberg School for
   Communication
   
   3:45 -- Filters, Content Controls and Speech
   
     Moderator: Paul McMasters, First Amendment Center
   
     Ann Beeson, staff attorney, American Civil Liberties Union
   
     Graeme Browning, author, "Electronic Democracy"
   
     Brant Houston, executive director, Investigative Reporters and
   Editors
   
     Steven Levy, technology columnist, Newsweek
   
   4:45 -- Filters and the Swedish Experience
   
     Stig Roland Rask, Foundation for Knowledge and Competence
   Development, Sweden
   
   5 p.m. -- Technology Demonstration: Remote Sensing and Civilian
   Satellites
   
     Mark Brender, director of Washington operations, Space Imaging
   
     Dan Dubno, technologist and producer, CBS News
   
   5:30 -- Remote Sensing, Linking and Privacy
   
     Moderator: Jill Blackman
   
     Guy Berger, Head of Department, Journalism and Media Studies, Rhodes
   University, South Africa
   
     Jonathan Hart, Dow, Lohnes and Albertson
   
     Stephen Miller, New York Times
   
     Elizabeth Osder, Online News Association
   
   6:30 -- Conclusion
   
     Adam Powell
   
   6:45-7:30 p.m. -- reception



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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----- End forwarded message -----




From jdd at vbc.net  Wed Mar 21 01:03:07 2001
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:03:07 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010320152447.00db58f0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10103210808410.85526-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.n
  et>


On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Reese wrote:

> more fuel for the fire - Britain may ban toys: 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1207000/1207355.stm
> 
>  >Doesn't anyone besides myself know how to use a search
>  >engine, or check numbers before posting?
> 
> Sure, but I wanted to know why the earlier url I posted DID NOT mention
> murder rates, along with all the violent crime it did list.  Anyone can
> find out what the numbers are, but will those numbers tell the story of
> why the most violent of violent crimes was elided from that story?

Anyone can find out what the numbers are?

A British doctor was jailed recently for murdering patients he 
believed shouldn't continue to live.  I don't recall how many 
murders he was convicted of, but it doesn't matter: estimates of
the total number killed are in the hundreds and climbing.  Very
few of these murders will enter any official statistics.

Since this came to light people in the UK have become much more 
skeptical about health professionals; police are investigating other
cases where death rates differ widely depending upon which staff are 
on duty.

These cases involve what is agreed to be murder.  It is certain
that the deaths of infants at the Bristol Royal Infirmary won't
be counted.  At BRI doctors kept on operating on children and were
allowed to do so even though they had an extraordinarily high death 
rate.  Colleagues warned them that their surgical procedures were 
ill-advised and they were widely known to be incompetent.  This went 
on for years.  Years.

A doctor joining the team in 1988 noticed the problem
and reported it, to no effect.  He began collecting evidence in
1992-3.  In 1993 he contacted the Department of Health and was told
that they had known about the problem before he joined.  In June 94 
he requested a review of the results; this took seven months.  It 
was agreed that no more operations should be performed - but they 
continued to be performed until May 1995, when a new doctor took
over operations of this type and the death rate plummeted.

An offical inquiry started in October 1997.

29 deaths, 4 survivors with brain damage out of 53 operations.
Three surgeons found guilty, including the chief executive of 
the trust.  Two struck off, one suspended for three years.

The men involved knew that what they were doing was causing death.
They didn't care.  Other people knew the same.  They did nothing -
for years.  The results won't be counted as murder.

Then we have mass slaughter.  In Europe in the 20th century many
tens of millions have died in wars.  Most of these deaths were
calmly ordered by governments who fully understood what the effect
of their orders would be.  

Murder on this scale is simply incomprehensible from a North American
prospective.  And keeping deaths of this type out of the murder 
statistics is what makes America look like a dangerous place to live.

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From jdd at vbc.net  Wed Mar 21 01:03:07 2001
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:03:07 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Did you notice
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010320152447.00db58f0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10103210808410.85526-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.net>


On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Reese wrote:

> more fuel for the fire - Britain may ban toys: 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1207000/1207355.stm
> 
>  >Doesn't anyone besides myself know how to use a search
>  >engine, or check numbers before posting?
> 
> Sure, but I wanted to know why the earlier url I posted DID NOT mention
> murder rates, along with all the violent crime it did list.  Anyone can
> find out what the numbers are, but will those numbers tell the story of
> why the most violent of violent crimes was elided from that story?

Anyone can find out what the numbers are?

A British doctor was jailed recently for murdering patients he 
believed shouldn't continue to live.  I don't recall how many 
murders he was convicted of, but it doesn't matter: estimates of
the total number killed are in the hundreds and climbing.  Very
few of these murders will enter any official statistics.

Since this came to light people in the UK have become much more 
skeptical about health professionals; police are investigating other
cases where death rates differ widely depending upon which staff are 
on duty.

These cases involve what is agreed to be murder.  It is certain
that the deaths of infants at the Bristol Royal Infirmary won't
be counted.  At BRI doctors kept on operating on children and were
allowed to do so even though they had an extraordinarily high death 
rate.  Colleagues warned them that their surgical procedures were 
ill-advised and they were widely known to be incompetent.  This went 
on for years.  Years.

A doctor joining the team in 1988 noticed the problem
and reported it, to no effect.  He began collecting evidence in
1992-3.  In 1993 he contacted the Department of Health and was told
that they had known about the problem before he joined.  In June 94 
he requested a review of the results; this took seven months.  It 
was agreed that no more operations should be performed - but they 
continued to be performed until May 1995, when a new doctor took
over operations of this type and the death rate plummeted.

An offical inquiry started in October 1997.

29 deaths, 4 survivors with brain damage out of 53 operations.
Three surgeons found guilty, including the chief executive of 
the trust.  Two struck off, one suspended for three years.

The men involved knew that what they were doing was causing death.
They didn't care.  Other people knew the same.  They did nothing -
for years.  The results won't be counted as murder.

Then we have mass slaughter.  In Europe in the 20th century many
tens of millions have died in wars.  Most of these deaths were
calmly ordered by governments who fully understood what the effect
of their orders would be.  

Murder on this scale is simply incomprehensible from a North American
prospective.  And keeping deaths of this type out of the murder 
statistics is what makes America look like a dangerous place to live.

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Mar 21 07:09:20 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:09:20 -0600
Subject: CRYPTO AG, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321105546.16404A-100000@apollon.datashop
  p  er.dk>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEEJCHAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Bo Elkjaer asked:

> I'm looking for additional information concerning the swiss company Crypto
> AG.

They are whoring at "Toyz! 2001" presently. Stop by and see their booth
bunnies, on your way to today's *FUN* demos:
http://idex.janes.com/schedule.shtml

(i.e., might check IDEX coverage since they are an exhibitor.)

~Aimee




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Mar 21 01:36:57 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:36:57 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: Have they found a serious PGP vulnerability?!]
Message-ID: <3AB87639.AAD73C99@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Forwarded without permission from BUGTRAQ. I have no idea if there is
any substance in the rumour,  though I imagine there probably isn't. 

Ken Brown

Pavel Kankovsky wrote:
> 
> The rumour goes around that a group of cryptologists working for a Czech
> company called ICZ has discovered a fatal problem in PGP as a side effect
> of their work on a special crypto device for the Czech government.
> 
> If you understand Czech (or if you want to check all the keywords are
> there), you can read an article titled "Do you trust PGP? A mistake!"
> about the whole thing at http://www.swnet.cz/article.php?id=15096
> 
> Allegedly, there is a vulnerability in OpenPGP format definition (sic)
> allowing an attacker to circumvent (sic) the encryption used to protect
> private signing keys and to recover those keys in real time (sic).
> 
> To make the article sound a little more like a piece of FUD, they add
> that only higher and more demanding professional systems (sic), when
> implemented and used correctly, can be considered really secure.
> 
> No details are available right now and the data included in the article
> seems to be partially self-contradicting (on the other hand, it can be
> just a result of standard journalistic post-production). They say there
> will be a press conference today (March 20) at 15:00 MET where ICZ people
> will shed more light on this issue.
> 
> Personally, I think they have found some new obscure attack (perhaps some
> side-channel attack) that can be used when some bizzare conditions are
> met, or maybe they have reinvented the wheel, and have discovered a Trojan
> horse can steal private keys when PGP decrypts them in order to be able to
> use them.
> 
> --Pavel Kankovsky aka Peak  [ Boycott Microsoft--http://www.vcnet.com/bms ]
> "Resistance is futile. Open your source code and prepare for assimilation."




From landon at best.com  Wed Mar 21 09:39:16 2001
From: landon at best.com (landon dyer)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:39:16 -0800
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering
  Software[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <200103211553.KAA26348@divert.sendon.net>
References: <3AB8A632.9C2DDA30@ameritech.net>
 <v0422080ab6de0d415d4e@[198.4.94.177]>
 <3AB8A632.9C2DDA30@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010321093724.020575b8@shell9.ba.best.com>



>A close friend confided to me that she's aware that the Canadian 
>government is working with the publishers of various dictionaries to 
>compile a list of words which in some rare circumstances could threaten 
>national security.
>
>She expects that once the list is complete, officials will consider
>introducing legislation.


   The more things change, the more they stay the same:

   -----
   "Now, look! No one is to stone anyone until I blow this
    whistle! Do you understand?! Even, and I want to make
    this absolutely clear, even if they do say 'Jehovah'."

         - Monty Python's _Life of Brian_
   -----

   :-)


-landon [re-lurking]




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 21 09:48:54 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:48:54 -0800
Subject: Hints...
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFAELHDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote:

> Reply publicly to the list or we're done with this discussion.

(Take a chill pill Jim.)  Sorry all, I guess I pushed the wrong button.  I
sent the following to Jim alone by mistake:

Jim wrote:

> Q: When did Congress pass a law specifically
>    making the 'common law' in the 7th
>    Amendment equivalent to English Common
     Law?

A: No need, it always was.  The pre-existing common law in this country was
not extinguished by independence.

>    Once again, why does "...shall make no
>    law..." not equate to (common law?)
>    'Stop' signs?

Once again, the admonition is directed at congress.  The common law does not
arise out of legislation and, thus, is not affected by the admonition.  Quod
Erat demonstrandum.





From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Mar 21 07:50:56 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:50:56 -0600
Subject: Linux Today - Community Column: Tux the Impaler?
Message-ID: <3AB8CDE0.6D855A59@dev.tivoli.com>



Is Open Source a savior or a curse?

http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-03-20-003-20-OP-CY

-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From skoooobee1 at verizonmail.com  Wed Mar 21 07:06:46 2001
From: skoooobee1 at verizonmail.com (skoooobee1 at verizonmail.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 01 10:06:46 EST
Subject: Simple Home Based E-Biz!
Message-ID: <199912112040.MAA94626@addr6.com>


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From bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com  Wed Mar 21 10:40:08 2001
From: bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:40:08 -0800
Subject: News Alert - Special Issue
Message-ID: <LYRIS-163101-844-2001.03.21-10.41.40--cypherpunks#algebra.com@lyris.stocknight.com>


 [Stockupticks.com]                                              [Image]

[Image]
 Welcome to Stockupticks.com Newsletter  Special Issue - March 21, 2001
[Image]

 [Image][Image]                                                 [Image]
        e-Blast

        [Image]VirtualSellers.com (OTCBB: VDOT)          [Image]

          While we generally bring you profiles of undiscovered
          stocks, we also want to provide follow up on
          companies we have profiled in the past.
          VirtualSellers.com Inc. (OTCBB: VDOT) is one such
          company.  VDOT issued some very interesting news
          today about the release of a new version (v5) of its
          TAME(tm) software.

          The release states that TAME V is an alternative to
          the popular Java programming language and that it
          saves significant programming time -- which equates
          to direct cost savings to Web developers, network
          programmers and software developers.  This is a
          powerful, yet simple-to-use programming tool that
          automates and streamlines some very complicated
          tasks.

          [Image]Todays News                            [Image]

          COMPANY CONTACT: MEDIA & INVESTOR RELATIONS:
          Everett Palmer, Investor Relations
          VirtualSellers.com, Inc. 312.920.9120

          FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

          VIRTUALSELLERS.COM RELEASES AN ALTERNATIVE TO JAVA
              -Virtualsellers’ Releases Version Five Of Its
               Proprietary TAME™ Pure Scripting Language -

          CHICAGO, Ill., March 21, 2001 – VirtualSellers.com,
          Inc. (OTC BB: VDOT), a developer and provider of
          software and technology used to automate and
          streamline Web and e-commerce applications, announced
          today that it has completed development of version
          five of its TAME software.  “TAME V” is now available
          for Internet Service Providers (ISPs), Web developers
          and networking programmers.

          The new version of TAME™, is a faster, easier, and
          more powerful version than its predecessors. This
          high performance, platform independent, server-side
          programming package is used to produce Web pages,
          Web-based applications, and e-commerce applications.
          It serves as the “glue” between many Web-based
          platforms, languages and legacy systems including XML
          and XSL applications, and in the future, Microsoft’s
          .NET.

          As a leader in platform independence, TAME V can be
          deployed on Linux, UNIX, or Windows NT. Its distinct
          advantage lies in reducing the complexity of
          accessing application programming interfaces (APIs),
          ODBC and most other files systems.  “TAME is the most
          productive Web development tool on the market,” said
          Dennis Sinclair, PhD., president and CEO of
          VirtualSellers. “TAME’s simplified language and the
          ability to use previously developed code makes
          transition seamless and requires minimal training.”

          TAME V simplifies how systems and software work
          together and requires 25 percent less code than Java
          Script.  The smaller code package reduces the amount
          of space required for files to move through a
          network, reducing bandwidth usage.  Programming in
          TAME is consistent, requiring less programming time
          and a lower level programming skill set resulting in
          lower labor rates.

          Its interfaces can eliminate bugs, errors, and other
          programming flaws. At the core of the system is a
          concise, proprietary engine that provides the
          language interpreter and basic functionality. “That
          means less overhead and a smaller memory footprint,”
          said Sinclair. “TAME only employs what is required in
          an application, instead of redundant and unnecessary
          tools. The result is an efficient, but flexible
          software that makes loading easy, development fast
          and cost savings routine.”

          With these new enhancements on TAME V, lesser-skilled
          programmers can produce results immediately. If a
          unique or complex problem arises, an average C
          programmer can be brought in to identify and solve
          the problem. The solution can then be given to the
          script coders for manipulation.  TAME software also
          provides additional core functionality that is easily
          inserted into the language, allowing script
          programmers to tackle the application scripting and
          continue with the creative process to make the
          application attractive to the end user.

          The Installation of TAME is very simple, utilizing
          fully automated standard installation software that
          is familiar to most Web-servers allowing for quick
          installation and configuration of the product. Once
          installed, no further action is required, except,
          perhaps, when adding any optional application
          modules.

          TAME is based on objects and is extensible, so new
          objects or functions may be created in C or C++ and
          will result as an extension of the Web-server as
          dynamic libraries. This gives the TAME software
          unlimited flexibility and control. For the most part,
          the developers may replace or add objects, file
          routines, database access, or any other functions as
          they see fit, thus avoiding interface problems that
          invariably arise with other less flexible scripting
          languages. And any code developed as business rules,
          are now reusable among many applications, providing a
          greater and quicker return on investment.

          TAME has the ability to converse with multiple
          databases on any platform, using ODBC connectivity.
          This eliminates the need for custom connections with
          custom software specific to those connections. And
          moving to another platform becomes a non-issue.

          The new features of TAME V include:

          · Universal concepts found on APL, C++, Java and
          other scripting languages.
          · “Flextype” Variables that are non-declarative, yet
          strongly typed.
          · Syntax checking.
          · Generalized arrays (arrays of arrays) have been
          implemented.
          · Session management allows for persistence of
          objects, variables, and page connections.
          · A configuration file allows for multiple instance
          control of applications.
          · A configuration file allows for specific control of
          loading only the required object modules.
          · Script library files that are loaded and parsed
          only once.
          · Script library files that reside in memory for
          faster access.
          · Support for XML and XSL for processing data and
          connectivity to other XML systems.

          VirtualSellers.com has two synergistic business units
          that develop solutions for its client base.  As a
          provider of turnkey e-commerce solutions, the company
          combines Web-based and 800 inbound transaction
          processing. The company’s TAME (Tag Activated Markup
          Enhancer) software is a rapid application development
          language for Web/intranet/browser solutions.  The
          software can be purchased on a license basis or used
          via VirtualSellers.com ASIP (Application Services
          Infrastructure Provider). The Professional Services
          Group (PSG) provides solution-focused consulting,
          development and project management.

          Safe Harbor Statement
          Included in this press release are “forward-looking
          statements,” including “forward-looking statements”
          within the meaning of Section 27A of the U.S.
          Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and Section 21E
          of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended.
          Those forward-looking statements include statements
          about the anticipated sales of its TAME software, its
          ability to become profitable or breakeven, its
          ability to produce substantial revenues and its
          ability to increase sales of its e-commerce
          services.  Those forward-looking statements involve
          risks and uncertainties.  The company’s actual
          results could differ materially from those discussed
          in the forward-looking statements found in this
          document.  Factors, risks and uncertainties that
          could cause or contribute to such differences include
          those specific risks and uncertainties, which are
          specifically discussed in the company’s Form 10-K for
          the period. The cautionary statements made in this
          document should be read as being applicable to all
          related forward-looking statements wherever they
          appear in this document.

          TAME is a trademark of VirtualSellers.com, Inc.

                                  # # #
          [Image]VirtualSellers.com Company Web Sites   [Image]

          www.virtualsellers.com
          www.sullivanpark.com
          www.tameable.com
          www.northstartele.com
          www.calldirect.com

          [Image]VDOT Profile on StockUpTicks.com       [Image]

          http://www.stockupticks.com/profiles/3-3-01.html

          [Image]Disclaimer and Safe Harbor Statement:  [Image]

          Statements contained in this document, including
          those pertaining to acquisitions, earnings estimates
          and related commercial plans other than statements of
          historical fact, are forward-looking statements
          subject to a number of uncertainties that could cause
          actual results to differ materially from statements
          made.

          Disclaimer:
          StockUpTicks.com is a property of Market Pathways
          Financial Relations Incorporated (MP).  The
          information, opinions and analysis contained herein
          are based on sources believed to be reliable but no
          representation, expressed or implied, is made as to
          its accuracy, completeness or correctness.  This
          report is for information purposes only and should
          not be used as the basis for any investment decision.
          MP represents VirtualSellers.com as its financial PR
          counsel and is paid a monthly fee of $6,000 and has
          been granted an option to purchase 600,000 shares of
          VirtualSellers.com stock at 40 cents per share during
          the next two years.  This compensation constitutes a
          conflict of interest as to MP’s ability to remain
          objective in its communication regarding the subject
          company.  Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as
          required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of
          1933/1934.    MP is not an investment advisor and
          this report is not investment advice.  This
          information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an
          offer to sell securities.  Information contained
          herein contains forward-looking statements and is
          subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which
          will affect the results.  The opinions contained
          herein reflect our current judgment and are subject
          to change without notice.  MP and/or its affiliates,
          associates and employees from time to time may have
          either a long or short position in securities
          mentioned.  It is the responsibility of the brokerage
          firm to verify “Blue Sky” status in each trading
          state.  Information contained herein may not be
          reproduced in whole or in part without the express
          written consent of Market Pathways Financial
          Relations Incorporated.


 [Image][Image]                                                 [Image]

[Image]
                © Stockupticks 2001, All rights reserved
[Image]





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From hseaver at ameritech.net  Wed Mar 21 08:40:47 2001
From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:40:47 -0600
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering Software[Censorware]
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net>




Ray Dillinger wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>
> >Both the American Civil Liberties Union and The American Library
> >Association filed suit 3-20-2001 in Federal court to stop the
> >Children's Internet Protection Act (CHIPA).  This is the act that
> >forces libraries and schools to use filtering software (censorware).
>
> Oddly enough, the san francisco public libraries are reading it
> as an act that prevents them from getting federal funds for
> internet access instead.
>

       Well, what it does is stops any fed funding for k12/libraries if
they don't comply. And since both are heavily, almost totally dependant
on e-rates it's a serious threat.




From jwn2 at qualcomm.com  Wed Mar 21 08:56:31 2001
From: jwn2 at qualcomm.com (John W Noerenberg II)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:56:31 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: Have they found a serious PGP vulnerability?!]
In-Reply-To: <3AB87639.AAD73C99@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <3AB87639.AAD73C99@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <a05100605b6de8d5f2a0f@[135.222.66.224]>


At 9:36 AM +0000 3/21/01, Ken Brown wrote:
>  > If you understand Czech (or if you want to check all the keywords are
>>  there), you can read an article titled "Do you trust PGP? A mistake!"
>  > about the whole thing at http://www.swnet.cz/article.php?id=15096

There is an English translation: 
<http://www.i.cz/en/onas/tisk4.html>.  As of this morning I haven't 
yet been able to determine if there's anything to their assertion.

-- 

john noerenberg
jwn2 at qualcomm.com
   --------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Peace of mind isn't at all superficial, really.  It's the whole thing.
   That which produces it is good maintenance; that which disturbs it
   is poor maintenance.
   -- Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert M. Pirsig, 1974
   --------------------------------------------------------------------------




From boo at datashopper.dk  Wed Mar 21 01:57:16 2001
From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:57:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: CRYPTO AG, anyone?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321105546.16404A-100000@apollon.datashopper.dk>


Hi List

I'm looking for additional information concerning the swiss company Crypto
AG. I have found already the available articles online, Madsens 'Trojan
Whore'-article, JYA, etc, but if possible, I'd like to see, if any
listmembers can help me with further infos. 

Specifically, I'm interested in:

1: Copies of memos and documents mentioned in articles by Baltimore Sun,
Der spiegel, CAQ.

2: Has anyone had a chance to look at their Ipsec-products? Cell-phones?

I hope theres some listmember, who might be able to help.

Yours
Bo Elkjaer, Denmark

Oh: Update on the SIGINT-situation in Denmark:
A US citizen was recently observed in the danish SIGINT site
Skibsbylejren. The danish minister of defense has acknowledged this and
confirms, that the american works for a US company, that was hired to
install equipment at the site. He and his company also works for the US
Department of Commerce.

The danish government have acknowledged to have had meetings with
representatives from US Gov, including representatives fom NSA regarding
encryption-technologies and policies in Denmark. Minutes from the meetings
are classified.

The danish government won't acknowledge that these meetings still take
place, but they won't deny it either. Remarkably, our minister of science
started out to deny in a written letter to parliament, that these meetings
still take place. This written statement with the denial was withheld
after pressure from the danish minister of justice, Frank Jensen.

The danish parliament will have a new debate on SIGINT and encryption next
month.


-- 


EOT 





From boo at datashopper.dk  Wed Mar 21 01:57:16 2001
From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:57:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: CRYPTO AG, anyone?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321105546.16404A-100000@apollon.datashopp
  er.dk>


Hi List

I'm looking for additional information concerning the swiss company Crypto
AG. I have found already the available articles online, Madsens 'Trojan
Whore'-article, JYA, etc, but if possible, I'd like to see, if any
listmembers can help me with further infos. 

Specifically, I'm interested in:

1: Copies of memos and documents mentioned in articles by Baltimore Sun,
Der spiegel, CAQ.

2: Has anyone had a chance to look at their Ipsec-products? Cell-phones?

I hope theres some listmember, who might be able to help.

Yours
Bo Elkjaer, Denmark

Oh: Update on the SIGINT-situation in Denmark:
A US citizen was recently observed in the danish SIGINT site
Skibsbylejren. The danish minister of defense has acknowledged this and
confirms, that the american works for a US company, that was hired to
install equipment at the site. He and his company also works for the US
Department of Commerce.

The danish government have acknowledged to have had meetings with
representatives from US Gov, including representatives fom NSA regarding
encryption-technologies and policies in Denmark. Minutes from the meetings
are classified.

The danish government won't acknowledge that these meetings still take
place, but they won't deny it either. Remarkably, our minister of science
started out to deny in a written letter to parliament, that these meetings
still take place. This written statement with the denial was withheld
after pressure from the danish minister of justice, Frank Jensen.

The danish parliament will have a new debate on SIGINT and encryption next
month.


-- 


EOT 




From ALAWASH at alawash.org  Wed Mar 21 08:02:54 2001
From: ALAWASH at alawash.org (ALAWASH E-MAIL)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:02:54 -0500
Subject: [ALA-WO:602] INFO/CIPA: ALA Files Suit to Overturn CIPA; 
Message-ID: <mailman.382.1576007505.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Pro-FIlter Group Holds Press Conference


ALAWON: American Library Association Washington Office Newsline
Volume 10, Number 20
March 21, 2001

In this issue:

ALA Files Suit to Overturn CIPA; Pro-Filter Group Holds Press
Conference

The American Library Association filed a lawsuit yesterday, March 20th
to overturn the Children's Internet Protection Act (CIPA), which
mandates the use of blocking technology on computers in public
libraries. The ALA believes this legislation is unconstitutional because
it restricts access to constitutionally protected information available
on the Internet at public libraries.

Commenting on the litigation which was filed with ten other co-
litigants, ALA President, Nancy Kranich said "Forcing libraries to
choose between funding and censorship means millions of library users
will lose - particularly those in the most poverty-stricken and
geographically isolated areas of the country, The federal government
should not be subsidizing commercial filtering companies by forcing
libraries to buy technology that doesn't work."

For further information regarding CIPA go to ALA's CIPA web site at:
http://www.ala.org/cipa or For more specific information regarding the
litigation click on links below.

ALA's Press Release Regarding the Suit
http://www.ala.org/cipa/cipapressrelease.html

ALA's Complaint for Declaratory and Injunctive Relief
http://www.ala.org/cipa/cipacomplaint.pdf

A Letter Explaining ALA's Position Regarding CIPA
http://www.ala.org/cipa/march1letter.html

A Message to ALA Members
http://www.ala.org/cipa/membersupport.html

Talking Points for Spokespeople Who will be Addressing CIPA Issues
http://www.ala.org/cipa/#Talking Points



The ACLU also filed suit against CIPA today. Their press release can be
found at: http://www.aclu.org/features/f032001a.html.


As expected, supporters of federal filtering mandates held a press
conference this afternoon in response to ALA's suit. The long list of
speakers included:  Rep. Ernest Istook (R-OK), Rep. Chip Pickering (R-
Miss.), Jan La Rue, of the Family Research Council, Donna Rice Hughes,
and Patrick Trueman of the American Family Association. The full text of
the Family Research Council's Press Release on the event can be found
at: http://www.frc.org/press/content.cfm?get=release&id=P01C05.

Congressman Istook's comments focused on American's support for
filtering. Jan LaRue's comments focused on the argument that libraries
and schools do not have pornography in print media and should not have
it available on the Internet.

Laura Morgan, a librarian who has filed suit maintaining that unfiltered
Internet access created a hostile workplace at the Chicago Public
Library, talked about her experiences listening to little girls talk
about how awful it is when the little boys look at "nasty pictures" on
the Internet.

Donna Rice Hughes described her work on the COPA Commission. Bruce
Taylor of the National Law Center focused on distinguishing CIPA from
COPA and the Communications Decency Act. Congressman Pickering focused
on the connection between federal funding and the filtering mandate.

Wendy Wright, from Concerned Women for America, focused on the
"protecting children" issue and concluded with the comment "Taxpayers
should not be forced to pay for material that is illegal. The ALA and
the ACLU are accomplices with the worst kind of criminals by trying to
undo CIPA."

The American Center for Law & Justice speaker appeared to base his
remarks on Senator McCain's reading of CIPA, claiming that the law would
not apply to all computers in a library or school, and was therefore
constitutional.

The Internet Safety Association (a trade association made up of several
small Internet corporations) attacked the Consumer Reports study
results.

The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children did not speak at
the press conference, however, a press release on their letterhead was
in the packet distributed by Rep. Istook's staff. In it, they commend
Istook's efforts, based in large part on their study that found 1 in 4
teens and preteens had unwanted exposure to sexual pictures on the
Internet.



******
ALAWON (ISSN 1069-7799) is a free, irregular publication of the
American Library Association Washington Office. All materials
subject to copyright by the American Library Association may be
reprinted or redistributed for noncommercial purposes with
appropriate credits.

To subscribe to ALAWON, send the message: subscribe ala-wo
[your_firstname] [your_lastname] to listproc at ala.org or go to
http://www.ala.org/washoff/alawon.

archives at http://www.ala.org/washoff/alawon.

ALA Washington Office, 1301 Pennsylvania Ave., N.W., Suite 403,
Washington, D.C. 20004-1701; phone: 202.628.8410 or 800.941.8478
toll-free; fax: 202.628.8419; e-mail: alawash at alawash.org; Web
site: http://www.ala.org/washoff.  Executive Director: Emily
Sheketoff. Office of Government Relations: Lynne Bradley,
Director; Mary Costabile, Peter Kaplan, Miriam Nisbet and
Claudette Tennant. Office for Information Technology Policy: Rick
Weingarten, Director; Jennifer Hendrix, Carrie Russell and Saundra
Shirley. ALAWON Editor: Bernadette Murphy.

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
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**************************************************************************




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Mar 21 09:04:33 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:04:33 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Hospital drug tests require moms' consent, court rules - March 
 21, 2001
Message-ID: <3AB8DF20.206F7506@dev.tivoli.com>



Duh...

http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/03/21/scotus.drug.tests.reut/index.html

-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Mar 21 09:09:09 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:09:09 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Report On The Texas Censorware Bill
Message-ID: <3AB8E035.EBEABF10@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/21/1334232.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Mar 21 11:10:03 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:10:03 -0800
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering  
  Software[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
  <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]>


At 10:40 AM -0600 3/21/01, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>>  On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>>
>>  >Both the American Civil Liberties Union and The American Library
>>  >Association filed suit 3-20-2001 in Federal court to stop the
>>  >Children's Internet Protection Act (CHIPA).  This is the act that
>>  >forces libraries and schools to use filtering software (censorware).
>>
>>  Oddly enough, the san francisco public libraries are reading it
>>  as an act that prevents them from getting federal funds for
>>  internet access instead.
>>
>
>        Well, what it does is stops any fed funding for k12/libraries if
>they don't comply. And since both are heavily, almost totally dependant
>on e-rates it's a serious threat.

No surprise to most members of this list that this government trend 
toward withholding money it has taken in other ways is a serious 
threat to freedom. The imposition of speed limits by Washington was 
an obvious example of this: highway taxes were collected, coercively 
of course, and then not given to states which failed to toe the 
Washington line.

"We are not restricting speech, as that would violate the First. We 
are simply withholding highway funds to any state which does not 
follow our speech guidelines."

"We are not banning guns. The American Medical Association has 
classified firearms as a disease agent, so we are not providing 
Medicare to any person who willingly exposes himself to this disease 
agent. Remove all guns from your house and your Medicare payments 
will be restarted."

When the State has the power to take monies and then decide how and 
when to dole them back out, it is using its coercive powers to 
regulate behavior just as surely as if it had banned behaviors 
outright.

The
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From freematt at coil.com  Wed Mar 21 09:04:26 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:04:26 -0500
Subject: ALA Files Suit to Overturn CIPA; Pro-FIlter Group Holds Press
 Conference
Message-ID: <v0422080bb6de8f7ca95c@[198.4.94.210]>



From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 21 10:07:38 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:07:38 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.383.1576007505.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

[I'm on an afternoon panel. --Declan]

*********


From rabagous at SIUS.yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 11:31:40 2001
From: rabagous at SIUS.yahoo.com (rabagous at SIUS.yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:31:40 -0600
Subject: X-Reply-To:  rabagous@yahoo.com
Message-ID: <200103211931.NAA04652@einstein.ssz.com>


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105th U.S. Congress and cannot be considered SPAM since it includes a removal mechanism. 
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_________________________________________________






From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 21 10:35:51 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:35:51 -0500
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
Message-ID: <20010321133551.B2386@cluebot.com>




http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42553,00.html
   
   Your E-Hancock Can Be Forged
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   10:20 a.m. Mar. 21, 2001 PST
   
   WASHINGTON -- A Czech information security firm has found a flaw in
   Pretty Good Privacy that permits digital signatures to be forged in
   some situations.
   
   Phil Zimmermann, the PGP inventor who's now the director of the
   OpenPGP Consortium, said on Wednesday that he and a Network Associates
   (NETA) engineer verified that the vulnerability exists.
   
   ICZ, a Prague company with 450 employees, said that two of its
   cryptologists unearthed a bug in the OpenPGP format that allows an
   adversary who breaks into your computer to forge your e-mail
   signature.
   
   Both Zimmermann and the Czech engineers, Vlastimil Klima and Tomas
   Rosa, point out that the glitch does not affect messages encrypted
   with PGP. OpenPGP programs -- including GNU Privacy Guard and newer
   versions of PGP -- use different algorithms for signing and
   scrambling, and only the digital signature method is at risk.
   
   PGP and its offspring are by far the most popular e-mail encryption
   programs in the world. Nobody has disclosed a flaw in their
   message-scrambling mechanisms, but PGP owner Network Associates
   suffered an embarrassment last August when a German cryptanalyst
   published a way that allows  an attacker to hoodwink PGP into not
   encoding secret information properly.
   
   In this case, someone wishing to impersonate you would need to gain
   access to your secret key -- usually stored on a hard drive or a
   floppy disk -- surreptitiously modify it, then obtain a message you
   signed using the altered secret key. Once those steps are complete,
   that person could then digitally sign messages using your name.
   
   "PGP or any program based on the OpenPGP format that does not have any
   extra integrity check will not recognize such modification and it will
   allow you to sign a message with the corrupted key," says Rosa, who
   works at Decros, an ICZ company. Rosa says he demonstrated the
   vulnerability with PGP 7.0.3.

   [...]




From lists at politechbot.com  Wed Mar 21 10:44:47 2001
From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:44:47 -0500
Subject: Freedom Forum event 3/22 in NYC on 1st Amendment and the Net
Message-ID: <20010321134446.A3041@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----


From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Mar 21 14:36:13 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:36:13 -0800
Subject: CNN Articles: "Inside the NSA"
Message-ID: <f82e88f4aad75814de40653172148025@melontraffickers.com>


http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/nsa/stories/codebreakers/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/nsa/stories/privacy/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/nsa/stories/codemakers/index.html




From jburnes at savvis.net  Wed Mar 21 12:39:53 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:39:53 -0600
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering
  Software[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]>; from Tim May on
  Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:10:03AM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
  <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net>
  <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]>
Message-ID: <20010321143953.B3527@savvis.net>


On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:10:03AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
> No surprise to most members of this list that this government trend 
> toward withholding money it has taken in other ways is a serious 
> threat to freedom.

I believe the original rallying cry was:

"No Taxation Without Representation"

Conditional representation (of which taxation is clearly but a part) 
should be provably unconstitutional.

Wait, I forgot.  I thought we were still in a republic.

Never mind.

jim

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 21 15:01:19 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:01:19 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online
  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEFECHAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFKELLDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Aimee wrote quoting Jim:

> > If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
> > not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?
>
> You gnaw at a branch and call it a root. You have common law (the law of
> common men, lex communis), and legislative law (bringing the law of the
> sovereign). Common law precedent is an aggregate body of knowledge
> consisting not only decisions, but of logical constructs -- a way of
> approaching and framing legal thought. Common law has never been
> codified in
> a document, it's a body of relational knowledge. The Constitution
> is not the
> primary authority, because constitutions (legislative law) are
> not the root
> of what you see as law. Indeed, the US Const. finds root in common law and
> common right.
>
> Lex est ab eterno.

Correct, to which I would add:

"Precedent" is a word of art.  It means the decision of an appellate court
to which lower courts must defer.  The Constitution can no more be a
"precedent" that it can be a banana.


 S a n d y




From reeza at flex.com  Wed Mar 21 17:05:30 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:05:30 -1000
Subject: [Fwd: Have they found a serious PGP vulnerability?!]
In-Reply-To: <a05100605b6de8d5f2a0f@[135.222.66.224]>
References: <3AB87639.AAD73C99@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <3AB87639.AAD73C99@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010321145840.032aa5a0@flex.com>


At 10:56 AM 3/21/01 -0600, John  W Noerenberg II wrote:
 >At 9:36 AM +0000 3/21/01, Ken Brown wrote:
 >>  > If you understand Czech (or if you want to check all the keywords are
 >>>  there), you can read an article titled "Do you trust PGP? A mistake!"
 >>  > about the whole thing at http://www.swnet.cz/article.php?id=15096
 >
 >There is an English translation:
 ><http://www.i.cz/en/onas/tisk4.html>.  As of this morning I haven't
 >yet been able to determine if there's anything to their assertion.

A repeat, here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/21/technology/21CODE.html

It has almost no details, doesn't even mention a version number.
Declan's fwd appears to have more info - but this one does mention
a press release that will become available on friday,,,

Reese




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 21 15:38:56 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:38:56 -0800
Subject: PARTY
In-Reply-To: <F282breLDwdbWKEVqr40000739f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFOELNDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Folks,

I will be having a massive costume party right after the RSA conference on
13 April (Good Friday the 13th) in San Francisco.  If you would like to get
on my party invitation list, drop me a note.


 S a n d y




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Mar 21 14:06:05 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:06:05 -0600
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online
  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFGEKPDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEFECHAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


She cannae take any more, Jim  ...sheeze breakink up! Choate constitutional
tribbles in here...<trekkie tribble noises>. "Laddy, don't you think you
should... rephrase that?" - Scotty, The Trouble with Tribbles.

>From Choate's 1L sig, the Fount of Fugue:

> If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
> not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

You gnaw at a branch and call it a root. You have common law (the law of
common men, lex communis), and legislative law (bringing the law of the
sovereign). Common law precedent is an aggregate body of knowledge
consisting not only decisions, but of logical constructs -- a way of
approaching and framing legal thought. Common law has never been codified in
a document, it's a body of relational knowledge. The Constitution is not the
primary authority, because constitutions (legislative law) are not the root
of what you see as law. Indeed, the US Const. finds root in common law and
common right.

Lex est ab eterno.

Athenian Constitution  -- Aristotle, 350 B.C.E.
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/athenian_const.html

"...and it is to this last, they say, that the masses have owed their
strength most of all, since, when the democracy is master of the
voting-power, it is master of the constitution. Moreover, since the laws
were not drawn up in simple and explicit terms .... disputes inevitably
occurred, and the courts had to decide in every matter, whether public or
private .... The Thesmothetae were many years afterwards, when these offices
had already become annual, with the object that they might publicly record
all legal decisions, and act as guardians of them with a view to determining
the issues between litigants."

~Aimee




From stevet at sendon.net  Wed Mar 21 08:45:11 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:45:11 +0000
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering Software[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <3AB8A632.9C2DDA30@ameritech.net>
References: <v0422080ab6de0d415d4e@[198.4.94.177]> <3AB8A632.9C2DDA30@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <200103211553.KAA26348@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Harmon Seaver (hseaver at ameritech.net):
>         I just checked www.anonymizer.com --- they are blocked. So anon
> speech is dangerous for kids and library patrons, eh?

>From the `you think that's bad' department:

A close friend confided to me that she's aware that the Canadian government is
working with the publishers of various dictionaries to compile a list of words
which in some rare circumstances could threaten national security.

She expects that once the list is complete, officials will consider
introducing legislation.


Regards,

Steve




From bf at farc.org  Wed Mar 21 16:56:48 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:56:48 -0800
Subject: embedded PGP boxes
Message-ID: <3AB94DCF.2D2FBE6E@farc.org>


These are current contest-projects I have no association with.
See http://embedded.linuxjournal.com/advertising/press/finalists.php


Dave Baker: P(aranoid)GP
              A keysigning station and standalone data signer, for
              people who are paranoid about untrusted computers,
              keystroke recorders and other attacks that get around
              PGP or GNUPG protection.

Robert J. Meier: Classic RSA Box
              A PGP appliance with an electrically isolated
              box-in-a-box with capacitive sensor interlock and
              optoisolated data channels. Intended to self-destruct if
              tampered with.







From sci at serviceconceptsint.com  Wed Mar 21 09:20:53 2001
From: sci at serviceconceptsint.com (sci at serviceconceptsint.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:20:53 +0000
Subject: a,3/21, WTS: Printer, HP, 4000, Pulls coming off lease , 500 @ Best Offer
Message-ID: <B0000379769@ser-sci.serviceconceptsint.com>



3/21, WTS: Printer, HP, 4000, Pulls coming off lease , 500 @ Best Offer

WTS: Printer, HP, 4000, Pulls coming off lease from a large OEM plant
        in Mexico AS IS, take all but guaranteed all from a working environment,
        INSPECTION WELCOME AND DESIRED, used toner package included   500
        @ Best Offer  (Item #:  1563)



========== ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS AND OFFERS ==========

WE WISH TO BUY:
Buy:  CD, Any Brand, Back Pack, PCMCIA or Parallel Port (or both) , any
        speed, (the slower the better) BRAND NEW, Factory sealed / factory
        warranty / any Tier 2 brand will do.   200 @ Best Offer  (Item #:  1558)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy: 15" Monitor, Any Brand, Any Model, MUST BE SAME BRAND Any Model OK,
        SVGA, .28 dpi, tested/working, with bases, no screen burns, 30
        Day Warantee. I can inspect and fund within 24 hours of your offer
        !   1000-3000 @ $30 or best offer  (Item #:  1556)
Buy: 14" Monitor, Any Brand, Any Model, MUST BE SAME BRAND Any Model OK,
        SVGA, .28 dpi, tested/working, with bases, no screen burns, 30
        Day Warantee. I can inspect and fund within 24 hours of your offer
        !   1000-3000 @ $19 or best offer  (Item #:  1555)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy: 486 Notebook, Any Brand, Any Model, any 486 SX/DX 25-100 MHZ / Color
        / >=8MB Mem / >=240MB HD /1.44M FD / Power Supply / Battery / 30
        day Warrantee. IF YOU HAVE THEM I WIRE IN MORNING (After independent
        inspection)   350 @ Best Offer  (Item #:  1527
Buy:  Notebook, Any Tier 1, PII-400, 64M / 2.0 Gig HD  / NO CD / No Modem
        / PCMCIA Net Card 100 Base T optional / Win 98 if possible / 30
        day warranty   400-450 @ $915 or best offer  (Item #:  1009)
Buy:  Notebook, Tier 1 Brands, Assorted Models, Min Specs: Used, PII-266,
        Must have 64M  / 4.0 G / Any CD / No Modem Needed / 13.1" TFT Display
        / 30 day warranty / PRICING IS 10% UNDER MARKET SO HERE IS THE DEAL:
        YOU  SAY YOU HAVE I WRITE THE P/O I PROMI
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy:  System, Tier 1 or Tier 2 Brand, Any Model, P266 or greater / 32M
        / 2.0 G / Any CD / Modem OK but not necessary / AS IS /    1000-4000
        @ Best Offer  (Item #:  1572)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Wed Mar 21 14:45:03 2001
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:45:03 -0500
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
Message-ID: <E14frLj-0004uv-00@mail.kostecke.net>


In article <20010321133551.B2386 at cluebot.com>,
Declan McCullagh  <declan at well.com> wrote:
>
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42553,00.html
>   
>   Your E-Hancock Can Be Forged
>   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
>   10:20 a.m. Mar. 21, 2001 PST
>   
>   WASHINGTON -- A Czech information security firm has found a flaw in
>   Pretty Good Privacy that permits digital signatures to be forged in
>   some situations.
>   
>   Phil Zimmermann, the PGP inventor who's now the director of the
>   OpenPGP Consortium, said on Wednesday that he and a Network Associates
>   (NETA) engineer verified that the vulnerability exists.
>   
>   ICZ, a Prague company with 450 employees, said that two of its
>   cryptologists unearthed a bug in the OpenPGP format that allows an
>   adversary who breaks into your computer to forge your e-mail
>   signature.

Of course, if someone can modify your private keyring, I'd suspect your
TCB is toast.  (Unless you're in the habit of shipping your private keyring
around the Internet.)

For the interested, this is my guess at the attack.

Modify the encrypted value of p, somewhere near the middle.
When decrypted, depending on the chaining mode, it's possible that
only a couple of blocks of p will be mangled, and the remainder
of the private key file will decrypt successfully.  Here's where
PGP fails to do a MAC to verify integrity of the data.

Then, it behaves just like DFA (Differential Fault Analysis).
The idea is that to calculate a signature M^d mod n, we calculate
M^d mod p and M^d mod q, and use the CRT to combine them to S = M^d mod n.

If p is wrong, the result S' will be correct mod q but incorrect mod p.
so S' ^ e mod q = M mod q, but S' ^ e mod p != M mod p.

Therefore GCD(S' ^ e mod n, M) = q, and we're done.

   - Ian





From nikitab at cs.berkeley.edu  Wed Mar 21 15:00:03 2001
From: nikitab at cs.berkeley.edu (Nikita Borisov)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:00:03 -0500
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
Message-ID: <E14fraF-00052Y-00@mail.kostecke.net>


In article <99b89r$lgd$1 at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>,
Ian Goldberg <iang at cs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>If p is wrong, the result S' will be correct mod q but incorrect mod p.
>so S' ^ e mod q = M mod q, but S' ^ e mod p != M mod p.
>
>Therefore GCD(S' ^ e mod n, M) = q, and we're done.

I think you meant GCD((S'^e mod n)-M, n) = q.  I don't think what you
said is true, since q does not necessarily divide M.

- Nikita





From sci at serviceconceptsint.com  Wed Mar 21 10:01:29 2001
From: sci at serviceconceptsint.com (sci at serviceconceptsint.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:01:29 +0000
Subject: a,3/21, WTS: Printer, HP, 4000, Pulls coming off lease , 500 @ Best Offer
Message-ID: <B0000381324@ser-sci.serviceconceptsint.com>



3/21, WTS: Printer, HP, 4000, Pulls coming off lease , 500 @ Best Offer

WTS: Printer, HP, 4000, Pulls coming off lease from a large OEM plant
        in Mexico AS IS, take all but guaranteed all from a working environment,
        INSPECTION WELCOME AND DESIRED, used toner package included   500
        @ Best Offer  (Item #:  1563)



========== ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS AND OFFERS ==========

WE WISH TO BUY:
Buy:  CD, Any Brand, Back Pack, PCMCIA or Parallel Port (or both) , any
        speed, (the slower the better) BRAND NEW, Factory sealed / factory
        warranty / any Tier 2 brand will do.   200 @ Best Offer  (Item #:  1558)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy: 15" Monitor, Any Brand, Any Model, MUST BE SAME BRAND Any Model OK,
        SVGA, .28 dpi, tested/working, with bases, no screen burns, 30
        Day Warantee. I can inspect and fund within 24 hours of your offer
        !   1000-3000 @ $30 or best offer  (Item #:  1556)
Buy: 14" Monitor, Any Brand, Any Model, MUST BE SAME BRAND Any Model OK,
        SVGA, .28 dpi, tested/working, with bases, no screen burns, 30
        Day Warantee. I can inspect and fund within 24 hours of your offer
        !   1000-3000 @ $19 or best offer  (Item #:  1555)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy: 486 Notebook, Any Brand, Any Model, any 486 SX/DX 25-100 MHZ / Color
        / >=8MB Mem / >=240MB HD /1.44M FD / Power Supply / Battery / 30
        day Warrantee. IF YOU HAVE THEM I WIRE IN MORNING (After independent
        inspection)   350 @ Best Offer  (Item #:  1527
Buy:  Notebook, Any Tier 1, PII-400, 64M / 2.0 Gig HD  / NO CD / No Modem
        / PCMCIA Net Card 100 Base T optional / Win 98 if possible / 30
        day warranty   400-450 @ $915 or best offer  (Item #:  1009)
Buy:  Notebook, Tier 1 Brands, Assorted Models, Min Specs: Used, PII-266,
        Must have 64M  / 4.0 G / Any CD / No Modem Needed / 13.1" TFT Display
        / 30 day warranty / PRICING IS 10% UNDER MARKET SO HERE IS THE DEAL:
        YOU  SAY YOU HAVE I WRITE THE P/O I PROMI
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy:  System, Tier 1 or Tier 2 Brand, Any Model, P266 or greater / 32M
        / 2.0 G / Any CD / Modem OK but not necessary / AS IS /    1000-4000
        @ Best Offer  (Item #:  1572)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From jmalcolm at uraeus.com  Wed Mar 21 10:08:09 2001
From: jmalcolm at uraeus.com (jmalcolm at uraeus.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:08:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: content owners vs. ISPs
In-Reply-To: <3AB4D4DF.7BE82C04@crosswinds.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103160808010.15473-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
  <3AB4D4DF.7BE82C04@crosswinds.net>
Message-ID: <15032.60937.124707.849570@nodens.uraeus.com>


madmullah writes:
>	On that note, what's the most inexpensive way of becoming trully multi
>homed, 
>and how much of a pain is it to set up BGP ? What are the requirements
>for getting an ASN number ?  Can a smaller ISP pull this off ?  This is
>a serious question, I can't find a whole lot of information on this.

The main issue is not getting an AS number, or setting up BGP, but
whether your routing advertisement will be accepted by the rest of the
world. Most small ISPs cannot justify a large block of addresses,
which renders it less likely that the rest of the world will accept
the advertisement.




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 18:37:14 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:37:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <20010322023714.63382.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>


OK, the first one didn't work.

Any idea how long does it take for LEA to request
yahoo
logs, get the IP, go to ISP and figure out who I am ?

Or is it fully automated by now, so if I mention AP my
name (as ISP knows it) flashes on some screen ?

Or someone is sent to the internet cafe I am posting
from ?

Questions, questions.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From reeza at flex.com  Wed Mar 21 22:39:52 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:39:52 -1000
Subject: Did you notice...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321231451.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010321203705.00e79300@flex.com>


At 11:16 PM 3/21/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >That the one place 'common law' is mentioned in the Constitution it is in
 >direct conflict with contemporanious English common law?
 >
 >                                Amendment VII
 >
 >In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty
 >dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by
 >a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States,
 >than according to the rules of the common law.

It acknowledges the existence of common law.  Now that this has been cleared
up, your contention is that the US is not bound by, and does not follow ANY
of the precepts of English common law, is that correct?

Proceeding on the assumption of the affirmative (dangerous, but the electrons
are already paid for), where is the American common law that replaced the
now rejected English common law, that A7 refers to?

Reese




From gomes at navigo.com  Wed Mar 21 17:58:31 2001
From: gomes at navigo.com (Carlos Macedo Gomes)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:58:31 -0500
Subject: Fw:  Hacker Uses Forbes List to Steal
Message-ID: <00b001c0b273$ab643c30$d7b52289@cgomesw2k>


----- Original Message -----
To: <reclaimthestreets at listbot.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 6:34 PM
Subject: Hacker Uses Forbes List to Steal


> Reclaim the Streets NYC - http://reclaimthestreetsnyc.tao.ca
>
> --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> Build a marketing database and send targeted HTML and text e-mail
> newsletters
> to your customers with List Builder.
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> >
> >Hacker Uses Forbes List to Steal
> >
> >
> >By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> >
> >
> >
> >Filed at 8:46 p.m. ET
> >
> >
> >
> >NEW YORK (AP) -- A restaurant busboy is accused of using the
> >Internet and Forbes' list of the richest people in America in a
> >scheme to steal millions from such figures as Steven Spielberg,
> >Warren Buffett, Martha Stewart, Oprah Winfrey, Ross Perot and Ted
> >Turner.
> >
> >Police are calling it one of the most ambitious identify-theft
> >schemes they have seen. They are still tracing the complex
> >electronic trail to determine exactly how much was stolen, but fear
> >it could be well into the millions.
> >
> >New York police investigators arrested Abraham Abdallah, a
> >32-year-old high school dropout, on March 7 as he allegedly picked
> >up equipment to make phony credit cards.
> >
> >Court papers say Abdallah was carrying the Social Security numbers,
> >home addresses and birth dates of 217 CEOs, celebrities and
> >tycoons. The information was scribbled in the margins of a tattered
> >copy of Forbes' ``The 400 Richest People in America.''
> >
> >Abdallah, police say, also had more than 400 stolen credit card
> >numbers, including some that were used to buy about $100,000 of
> >dollars of computer equipment and gold coins.
> >
> >``All those people ... have not been compromised,'' said Chief of
> >Detectives William Allee, referring to the Forbes 400. ``The ones
> >we believe have been compromised, we've contacted.''
> >
> >Abdallah, charged with multiple counts of criminal impersonation,
> >forgery and fraud, is being held on $1 million bail. Authorities
> >said he has a long record of arrests for various schemes, and at
> >the time of his arrest was on supervised release for a federal bank
> >fraud conviction. He once even appeared as an ``expert'' on a
> >training video on fraud prevention prepared for credit card
> >companies.
> >
> >Defense attorney Sam Gregory said Abdallah is innocent. Prosecutors
> >``made an unfair leap from possession of this information to an
> >inference that there was an attempt to take money,'' said Gregory,
> >who declined further comment.
> >
> >Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik described Abdallah as ``someone
> >who was very innovative, very creative. ... He didn't try to pry.
> >He was very organized. He would go one step at a time to build his
> >database.''
> >
> >The alleged scheme was uncovered when an e-mail request to transfer
> >$10 million from a Merrill Lynch account belonging to Thomas
> >Siebel, founder of Siebel Systems, raised red flags, police said.
> >
> >Siebel said he never made the request and Merrill Lynch contacted
> >authorities.
> >
> >The trail of evidence led police to mailboxes rented by Abdallah
> >under the names of Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft, and James
> >Cayne, head of Bear Stearns, court papers said. He allegedly used
> >the addresses to order merchandise using their credit card numbers.
> >
> >A spokesman for Allen said the businessman was cooperating with
> >authorities. Turner, media mogul Michael Bloomberg and Spielberg
> >were unaware that their identities may have been stolen,
> >representatives said. Cayne, Perot, Winfrey, Buffet and Stewart
> >declined comment.
> >
> >A spokeswoman for George Lucas said the movie producer had not been
> >affected by alleged scam.
> >
> >Investigators say Abdallah used computers at a local library,
> >Web-enabled cell phones and virtual voicemail during a six-month
> >scam that involved duping credit reporting companies such as
> >Equifax into providing reports on his rich victims.
> >
> >He allegedly used the data to gain access to credit cards and
> >accounts at brokerage houses such as Goldman Sachs, Bear Stearns
> >and Merrill Lynch.
> >
> >Equifax said it had no evidence of fraudulent access to its files,
> >and had not yet been contacted by authorities.
> >
> >Experts said the case was a glaring example of how access to
> >private data on the Internet has helped make identity fraud one of
> >the fastest growing white-collar crimes.
> >
> >Martin Biegelman, a former Postal Service inspector, recalled using
> >Abdallah to make the training video as part of a plea deal in the
> >mid-1980s.
> >
> >``He agreed to go on camera as a reformed criminal,'' Biegelman
> >said. ``He was talking about fraud, how easy it was. ... He said he
> >wasn't going to do it again.''
> >
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/AP-Forbes-List-Hacker.html?searchpv=ap
online?ex=986212427&ei=1&en=78f1197e591527ee
> >
> >/-----------------------------------------------------------------\
> >
> >
> >Visit NYTimes.com for complete access to the
> >most authoritative news coverage on the Web,
> >updated throughout the day.
> >
> >Become a member today! It's free!
> >
> >http://www.nytimes.com?eta
> >
> >
> >\-----------------------------------------------------------------/
> >
> >HOW TO ADVERTISE
> >---------------------------------
> >For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters
> >or other creative advertising opportunities with The
> >New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson
> >Racer at alyson at nytimes.com or visit our online media
> >kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo
> >
> >For general information about NYTimes.com, write to
> >help at nytimes.com.
> >
> >Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to reclaimthestreets-unsubscribe at listbot.com
>




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 21 19:20:38 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:20:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Inferno: Fw: Opening the Border for FTAA (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321211926.5925H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:54:23 -0500
From: Any Mouse

the regional convergence towards Quebec is audible...

----- Original Message -----
From: "moose" <moose000 at earthlink.net>
To: "* Anti IMF" <antiimf2000 at yahoogroups.com>; "* AAC" <aac at lists.tao.ca>; "*
Yaba East" <yabastaeast at topica.com>; "* Bay Area DAN"
<bayareadan at yahoogroups.com>; "* Buffalo FTAA"
<a20buffalo-subscribe at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 1:38 PM
Subject: Opening the Border for FTAA


> Opening the Border for FTAA
>              by CARLYN ZWARENSTEIN 11:27am Tue Mar 20 '01
>
>  Americans coming north to protest free trade
> talks in Quebec City next month will find the
> border open, if Shawn Brant has his way.
>
>
>         A Mohawk from the community of Tyendinaga and an
> organizer with the
> Ontario Coalition Against Poverty (OCAP), Brant will take
> part in a plan to
> open the international border near Cornwall, Ont., on the
> weekend of the
> Free Trade Agreement of the Americas talks in Quebec City
> (April 20-22).The
> border cuts through the Mohawk territory of Akwesasne, which
> overlaps
> Ontario, Quebec and the United States.
>
>         "My motivation is to assert and reinforce the
> sovereign integrity
> of Mohawk people within the Mohawk nation and to bring the
> organizing
> bodies together so we can stand and fight in preparation for
> the fall," he
> says, referring to a series of actions with which OCAP and
> allied groups
> plan to confront the Ontario government. "We will engage in
> attacks against
> the provincial economy, the provincial infrastructure. We
> will shut down
> highways, roadways, bridges until this government is brought
> to its knees."
>
>         As Brant describes it, people will assemble in
> Cornwall on April 19
> and then move into Akwesasne, while supporters from the US
> will gather on
> the American side of the border. And then?
>
>         "The Mohawks of Akwesasne will have pre-secured the
> bridge," says
> Brant, though he is reluctant to go into details. "That's
> probably
> something that wouldn't be best to publish, tactically," he
> says. "We are
> preparing for every possible scenario. Certainly an
> aggressive stand by the
> state would not stop us from pursuing our objective -- we'll
> respond to
> force with force and to opposition with opposition."
>
>         Meanwhile, OCAP is forming networks with Mohawk
> communities in the
> area. A recent OCAP tour raised interest among Oneida,
> Cayuga and Seneca
> communities south of the border.
>
>         The action has been endorsed by the Cornwall Labour
> Council (CLC),
> the Kingston-based People's Community Union (PCU) and
> members of the Mohawk
> communities of Akwesasne and Kahnawake. The CLC has sent
> letters to the
> elected leadership in Akwesasne, requesting their support.
>
>         Brant maintains that although some members of the
> Akwesasne Mohawk
> community may oppose a potentially explosive action, none
> oppose opening
> the border. "The border is a barrier to community life in
> Akwesasne," says
> Brant, who must submit to car searches and ID checks at
> Customs in order to
> visit relatives who live in the same Mohawk territory, but
> across the
> border. "It is the right of the Mohawk nation to determine
> who can cross
> the border," he adds.
>
>         According to Darren Bonaparte, the Akwesasne author
> of A Line on a
> Map: A Mohawk Perspective on the International Border at
> Akwesasne, the
> Mohawks have had a love-hate relationship with the border
> over the years.
> During Prohibition it provided opportunity for illegal
> profit through
> alcohol trading, and more recently cigarettes and foreign
> nationals have
> illicitly traveled north and south, respectively.
>
>         The border action was news to Canada Customs
> spokesperson Collette
> Gentes-Hawn. "Have we been officially notified?" she asks.
> Still, she's not
> surprised. "This wouldn't be the first time there are
> demonstrations on
> this bridge," she adds, noting that a court case relating to
> the border is
> outstanding. The case, launched by Grand Chief Mike Mitchell
> and the Mohawk
> Council, alleges that the feds knew about cigarette
> smuggling across the
> border, but used the Mohawks as scapegoats rather than
> acting against the
> tobacco industry.
>
>         According to Brant, the action is really about the
> free-trade-friendly policies of the Ontario government,
> which are of
> concern to poor people and First Nations alike: "[Free
> trade] does
> everything to help corporations, and absolutely shit to help
> people in
> poverty."
>
>
>
>




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 21 19:28:01 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:28:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFKELLDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321212517.5925M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Correct, to which I would add:
> 
> "Precedent" is a word of art.  It means the decision of an appellate court
> to which lower courts must defer.  The Constitution can no more be a
> "precedent" that it can be a banana.

It comes from 'precede' to 'come first or before' as in importance or
scope of coverage (with respect to court authority).

The Constitution is clearly superior in authority over any and all courts
in America. Therefore any ruling they may emit must comply with the
Constitution. Quibling over whether that fits the strictest legal
definition of 'precedence' is nothing more than a strawman.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 21 19:38:11 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:38:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEFECHAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321213023.5925O-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> She cannae take any more, Jim  ...sheeze breakink up! Choate constitutional
> tribbles in here...<trekkie tribble noises>. "Laddy, don't you think you
> should... rephrase that?" - Scotty, The Trouble with Tribbles.

Hey Boo, what's up with you? Thought maybe you'd dropped since I hadn't
seen a comeback on that last email I sent you....

I'd still like to hear your replies to the questions I posed you. But life
is filled with shallow disappointment I suppose.

Ta ta

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 21 19:43:47 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:43:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEFECHAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321213835.5925Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> You gnaw at a branch and call it a root.

Opposite ends of the same thing. You can't have one without the other so
in a very real way to eat a potato is to chew on a potato branch (in a
figurative way of course).

> You have common law (the law of common men, lex communis), and legislative 
> law (bringing the law of the sovereign).

You draw a false distinction, the Constitution starts out with what
phrase?

     Section. 1.
     All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a
     Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and
     House of Representatives.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From waynerad at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 13:57:48 2001
From: waynerad at hotmail.com (Wayne Rad)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:57:48 -0000
Subject: Hints...
Message-ID: <F143ErAWhJMYTcecyvf00007233@hotmail.com>



YOU're on this list??

wow, small world.

I dunno if you remember I went to your oakland party in 1998,
(Blanc Weber's idea)  Are you still doing those parties? I'd
forgotten about them...

--Wayne Radinsky aka waynerad

----------
>From: "Sandy Sandfort" <sandfort at mindspring.com>
>Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>To: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>
>Subject: RE: Hints...
>Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:48:54 -0800
>
>Jim wrote:
>
> > Reply publicly to the list or we're done with this discussion.
>
>(Take a chill pill Jim.)  Sorry all, I guess I pushed the wrong button.  I
>sent the following to Jim alone by mistake:
>
>Jim wrote:
>
> > Q: When did Congress pass a law specifically
> >    making the 'common law' in the 7th
> >    Amendment equivalent to English Common
>      Law?
>
>A: No need, it always was.  The pre-existing common law in this country was
>not extinguished by independence.
>
> >    Once again, why does "...shall make no
> >    law..." not equate to (common law?)
> >    'Stop' signs?
>
>Once again, the admonition is directed at congress.  The common law does 
>not
>arise out of legislation and, thus, is not affected by the admonition.  
>Quod
>Erat demonstrandum.
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From iang at cs.berkeley.edu  Wed Mar 21 14:00:27 2001
From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: 21 Mar 2001 22:00:27 GMT
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
References: <20010321133551.B2386@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <99b89r$lgd$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>


In article <20010321133551.B2386 at cluebot.com>,
Declan McCullagh  <declan at well.com> wrote:
>
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42553,00.html
>   
>   Your E-Hancock Can Be Forged
>   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
>   10:20 a.m. Mar. 21, 2001 PST
>   
>   WASHINGTON -- A Czech information security firm has found a flaw in
>   Pretty Good Privacy that permits digital signatures to be forged in
>   some situations.
>   
>   Phil Zimmermann, the PGP inventor who's now the director of the
>   OpenPGP Consortium, said on Wednesday that he and a Network Associates
>   (NETA) engineer verified that the vulnerability exists.
>   
>   ICZ, a Prague company with 450 employees, said that two of its
>   cryptologists unearthed a bug in the OpenPGP format that allows an
>   adversary who breaks into your computer to forge your e-mail
>   signature.

Of course, if someone can modify your private keyring, I'd suspect your
TCB is toast.  (Unless you're in the habit of shipping your private keyring
around the Internet.)

For the interested, this is my guess at the attack.

Modify the encrypted value of p, somewhere near the middle.
When decrypted, depending on the chaining mode, it's possible that
only a couple of blocks of p will be mangled, and the remainder
of the private key file will decrypt successfully.  Here's where
PGP fails to do a MAC to verify integrity of the data.

Then, it behaves just like DFA (Differential Fault Analysis).
The idea is that to calculate a signature M^d mod n, we calculate
M^d mod p and M^d mod q, and use the CRT to combine them to S = M^d mod n.

If p is wrong, the result S' will be correct mod q but incorrect mod p.
so S' ^ e mod q = M mod q, but S' ^ e mod p != M mod p.

Therefore GCD(S' ^ e mod n, M) = q, and we're done.

   - Ian




From waynerad at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 14:09:01 2001
From: waynerad at hotmail.com (Wayne Rad)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:09:01 -0000
Subject: Hints...
Message-ID: <F282breLDwdbWKEVqr40000739f@hotmail.com>



Sorry, everyone, I fucked up, This was supposed to be a
private message.

we return you now to your regularly scheduled [de]programming.
----------
>From: "Wayne Rad" <waynerad at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
>Subject: RE: Hints...
>Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:57:48 -0000
>
>
>YOU're on this list??
>
>wow, small world.
>
>I dunno if you remember I went to your oakland party in 1998,
>(Blanc Weber's idea)  Are you still doing those parties? I'd
>forgotten about them...
>
>--Wayne Radinsky aka waynerad
>
>----------
>>From: "Sandy Sandfort" <sandfort at mindspring.com>
>>Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>>To: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>
>>Subject: RE: Hints...
>>Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:48:54 -0800
>>
>>Jim wrote:
>>
>> > Reply publicly to the list or we're done with this discussion.
>>
>>(Take a chill pill Jim.)  Sorry all, I guess I pushed the wrong button.  I
>>sent the following to Jim alone by mistake:
>>
>>Jim wrote:
>>
>> > Q: When did Congress pass a law specifically
>> >    making the 'common law' in the 7th
>> >    Amendment equivalent to English Common
>>      Law?
>>
>>A: No need, it always was.  The pre-existing common law in this country 
>>was
>>not extinguished by independence.
>>
>> >    Once again, why does "...shall make no
>> >    law..." not equate to (common law?)
>> >    'Stop' signs?
>>
>>Once again, the admonition is directed at congress.  The common law does
>>not
>>arise out of legislation and, thus, is not affected by the admonition.
>>Quod
>>Erat demonstrandum.
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 21 20:19:26 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:19:26 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Charles Bierbauer: Supreme Court rulings on unlawful searches, arbitration, and pension benefits - March 21, 2001
Message-ID: <3AB97D4E.3AD9F5C2@ssz.com>


Note Scalia's vote...

http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/03/21/bierbauer.debrief/


-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From nikitab at cs.berkeley.edu  Wed Mar 21 14:27:04 2001
From: nikitab at cs.berkeley.edu (Nikita Borisov)
Date: 21 Mar 2001 22:27:04 GMT
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
References: <20010321133551.B2386@cluebot.com> <99b89r$lgd$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <99b9ro$ln4$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>


In article <99b89r$lgd$1 at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>,
Ian Goldberg <iang at cs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>If p is wrong, the result S' will be correct mod q but incorrect mod p.
>so S' ^ e mod q = M mod q, but S' ^ e mod p != M mod p.
>
>Therefore GCD(S' ^ e mod n, M) = q, and we're done.

I think you meant GCD((S'^e mod n)-M, n) = q.  I don't think what you
said is true, since q does not necessarily divide M.

- Nikita




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Wed Mar 21 20:01:56 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:01:56 -0500
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
In-Reply-To: <20010321133551.B2386@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <001301c0b284$d688f160$0500a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


What the flaw says is that if I get write access to your private key 
I can cause you to reveal it.

Like interesting but not exactly gripping stuff. If I can write to your
private key you are probably !@@$(&**ed.

The report is incorrect in stating that PGP is the most popular email
security package, there are 100 million copies of S/MIME enabled
email applications in use.

	Phill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> [mailto:owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu]On Behalf Of Declan
> McCullagh
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 1:36 PM
> To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; cryptography at c2.net
> Cc: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42553,00.html
>    
>    Your E-Hancock Can Be Forged
>    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
>    10:20 a.m. Mar. 21, 2001 PST
>    
>    WASHINGTON -- A Czech information security firm has found a flaw in
>    Pretty Good Privacy that permits digital signatures to be forged in
>    some situations.
>    
>    Phil Zimmermann, the PGP inventor who's now the director of the
>    OpenPGP Consortium, said on Wednesday that he and a 
> Network Associates
>    (NETA) engineer verified that the vulnerability exists.
>    
>    ICZ, a Prague company with 450 employees, said that two of its
>    cryptologists unearthed a bug in the OpenPGP format that allows an
>    adversary who breaks into your computer to forge your e-mail
>    signature.
>    
>    Both Zimmermann and the Czech engineers, Vlastimil Klima and Tomas
>    Rosa, point out that the glitch does not affect messages encrypted
>    with PGP. OpenPGP programs -- including GNU Privacy Guard and newer
>    versions of PGP -- use different algorithms for signing and
>    scrambling, and only the digital signature method is at risk.
>    
>    PGP and its offspring are by far the most popular e-mail encryption
>    programs in the world. Nobody has disclosed a flaw in their
>    message-scrambling mechanisms, but PGP owner Network Associates
>    suffered an embarrassment last August when a German cryptanalyst
>    published a way that allows  an attacker to hoodwink PGP into not
>    encoding secret information properly.
>    
>    In this case, someone wishing to impersonate you would need to gain
>    access to your secret key -- usually stored on a hard drive or a
>    floppy disk -- surreptitiously modify it, then obtain a message you
>    signed using the altered secret key. Once those steps are complete,
>    that person could then digitally sign messages using your name.
>    
>    "PGP or any program based on the OpenPGP format that does 
> not have any
>    extra integrity check will not recognize such modification 
> and it will
>    allow you to sign a message with the corrupted key," says Rosa, who
>    works at Decros, an ICZ company. Rosa says he demonstrated the
>    vulnerability with PGP 7.0.3.
> 
>    [...]
> 
> 




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 21 21:05:52 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:05:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hints...
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFAELHDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321225746.5925U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Jim wrote:
> 
> > Q: When did Congress pass a law specifically
> >    making the 'common law' in the 7th
> >    Amendment equivalent to English Common
>      Law?
> 
> A: No need, it always was.  The pre-existing common law in this country was
> not extinguished by independence.

Really? Where is that written? The Declaration of Independance clearly
doesn't support the proposition of 'limited' breaking of bonds between two
people. It didn't say we 'demand partial independance'.

The reality is that ALL law in this country was 'reset' (to use modern
parlance) with the Declaration of Independence.

The reality of todays common law and all precedence based law for that
matter is it is based on a simple principle,

"I got away with it yesterday, so I can do it today."

Unfortunately (for you, it's okey dokey by me) the ends don't justify the
means (well at least in a democracy).

> >    Once again, why does "...shall make no
> >    law..." not equate to (common law?)
> >    'Stop' signs?
> 
> Once again, the admonition is directed at congress.  The common law does not
> arise out of legislation and, thus, is not affected by the admonition.  Quod
> Erat demonstrandum.

All law, per the Constition, arises out of legislation through Congress.
Even if we accept your point, it still MUST pass Constitutional muster,
10th Amendments 'delegation' clause. Simply being 'common law' does not
exempt that law from the 10th Amendment.

But your point does raise an additional complaint against the concept of
'common law' as equivalent to 'court created' law, and that is there is no
specific delegation to create a set of laws that are 'common'.

So, a claim to 'common law' still does nothing to eliminate, let alone
actually answer, my question about 'right to lie'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 21 21:16:33 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:16:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Did you notice...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321231451.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



That the one place 'common law' is mentioned in the Constitution it is in
direct conflict with contemporanious English common law?

                                Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty
dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by
a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States,
than according to the rules of the common law.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 22 00:09:45 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:09:45 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Online  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321212517.5925M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFEEMEDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote:

> It comes from 'precede' to 'come first or
> before' as in importance or scope of coverage
> (with respect to court authority).
>
> The Constitution is clearly superior in
> authority over any and all courts in America.
> Therefore any ruling they may emit must
> comply with the Constitution. Quibling over
> whether that fits the strictest legal
> definition of 'precedence' is nothing more
> than a strawman.

No quibbling, just explaining what the common law is.  Anyone who wants to
believe that the Constitution is precedent court ruling recognized under the
common law, is welcome to do so.  Trouble is, it just ain't so.  You can
woulda-coulda-shoulda all day long, but that won't change the facts.  You
can spend three years in law school and learn something, read a book or two
about the origins Anglo-American jurisprudence or live in darkness.  The
choice is yours.


 S a n d y




From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Mar 21 16:20:02 2001
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: 22 Mar 2001 00:20:02 -0000
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
Message-ID: <20010322002002.21607.qmail@nym.alias.net>


Ian writes:
> Of course, if someone can modify your private keyring, I'd suspect your
> TCB is toast.  (Unless you're in the habit of shipping your private keyring
> around the Internet.)
>
> For the interested, this is my guess at the attack.
>
> Modify the encrypted value of p, somewhere near the middle.
> When decrypted, depending on the chaining mode, it's possible that
> only a couple of blocks of p will be mangled, and the remainder
> of the private key file will decrypt successfully.  Here's where
> PGP fails to do a MAC to verify integrity of the data.
>
> Then, it behaves just like DFA (Differential Fault Analysis).
> The idea is that to calculate a signature M^d mod n, we calculate
> M^d mod p and M^d mod q, and use the CRT to combine them to S = M^d mod n.
>
> If p is wrong, the result S' will be correct mod q but incorrect mod p.
> so S' ^ e mod q = M mod q, but S' ^ e mod p != M mod p.
>
> Therefore GCD(S' ^ e mod n, M) = q, and we're done.

Pretty good!  Actually they modify what PGP calls "u", which is p^(-1)
mod q, but get the same effect.  PGP has a simple bytewise checksum to
protect the data but it is not enough.

Now can you figure out how to do it to DSS keys?  Hint: you change the
public, not secret, data this time.




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 22 00:36:31 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:36:31 -0800
Subject: PARTY
In-Reply-To: <00b401c0b1de$64cbae60$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFIEMGDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Atek wrote:

> what kind of music?

>From 7-10pm whatever CDs you and other folks bring.  After that, whatever
the house DJ spins.


 S a n d y




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Wed Mar 21 22:55:22 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:55:22 -0500
Subject: Did you notice...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321231451.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <HIEAKGFJFMEBPPNLCACMMECPCCAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


<begin theft> People v. Rehman, 253 C.A. 2d 119, 61 Cal. Rptr. 65, 85.
"Common law" consists of those principles, usage and rules of action
applicable to government and security of persons and property which do not
rest for their authority upon any express and positive declaration of the
will of the legislature. Bishop v. U.S., D.C. Tex., 334, F. Supp. 415, 418.

...

The Constitution of and for the United States of America is a Common Law
document and cannot be understood, interpreted and applied except at the
Common Law;

"It is never to be forgotten that in the construction of the language of the
Constitution, we are to place ourselves as nearly as possible in the
condition of the men who framed that instrument." Ex Parte Bain., 12 U.S.
1., 7S. Ct.781.
<end theft>

details: http://www.f-f-a.com/comlaw.htm

phillip



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 12:17 AM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Did you notice...




That the one place 'common law' is mentioned in the Constitution it is in
direct conflict with contemporanious English common law?

                                Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty
dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by
a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States,
than according to the rules of the common law.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 22 07:38:56 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 05:38:56 -1000
Subject: Did you notice...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322065551.5925Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010321203705.00e79300@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010322053804.030c58f0@flex.com>


At 06:56 AM 3/22/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Reese wrote:
 >
 >> It acknowledges the existence of common law.  Now that this has been 
cleared
 >> up, your contention is that the US is not bound by, and does not follow ANY
 >> of the precepts of English common law, is that correct?
 >
 >No, Reese, that isn't my contention.

Then what is your contention, evidenced by your earlier objections to English
common law?

Reese




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Mar 22 04:56:16 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:56:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Did you notice...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010321203705.00e79300@flex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322065551.5925Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Reese wrote:

> It acknowledges the existence of common law.  Now that this has been cleared
> up, your contention is that the US is not bound by, and does not follow ANY
> of the precepts of English common law, is that correct?

No, Reese, that isn't my contention.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 22 04:59:10 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:59:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Did you notice...
In-Reply-To: <HIEAKGFJFMEBPPNLCACMMECPCCAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322065635.5925a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

> <begin theft> People v. Rehman, 253 C.A. 2d 119, 61 Cal. Rptr. 65, 85.
> "Common law" consists of those principles, usage and rules of action
> applicable to government and security of persons and property which do not
> rest for their authority upon any express and positive declaration of the
> will of the legislature. Bishop v. U.S., D.C. Tex., 334, F. Supp. 415, 418.

Ah, but now you've used a court to justify a courts action. Which is
exactly my point. You're arguing in circles.

> The Constitution of and for the United States of America is a Common Law
> document and cannot be understood, interpreted and applied except at the
> Common Law;

ALL law in the US is common law (see Amiee's def's of the distinction).

What phrase does the Constitution start with?

> "It is never to be forgotten that in the construction of the language of the
> Constitution, we are to place ourselves as nearly as possible in the
> condition of the men who framed that instrument." Ex Parte Bain., 12 U.S.
> 1., 7S. Ct.781.
> <end theft>

Really? Where did the framers direct us to do that? Jefferson ways the
earth (and it follows the laws we derive from our existance) follow from
the living not the dead? 

> details: http://www.f-f-a.com/comlaw.htm

You're just arguing in circles and demonstrating my point about
'predecence'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 22 05:03:05 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:03:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Law & Courts
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322070117.5925b-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



I believe the last couple of days with two lawyers and a couple of wanna
be's clearly demonstrate the primary problem of todays judicial system.

The courts are not concerned with The Law, they are concerned with their
continued existance. This is exemplified by lawyers making reference to
'precedence' instead of 'the law' (ie a codified set of laws that are
applicable to all).

It's supposed to be 'equal protection under the law', not 'equal
protection by the courts'.

A court <> the law.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From BF at farc.org  Thu Mar 22 07:08:52 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:08:52 -0800
Subject: Choatian agriculture
Message-ID: <3ABA1584.40E19897@farc.org>


At 09:43 PM 3/21/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
>> You gnaw at a branch and call it a root.
>
>Opposite ends of the same thing. You can't have one without the other
so
>in a very real way to eat a potato

Only JC would introduce a tuber into a discussion of roots and branches.

Simply amazing.






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 22 05:18:35 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:18:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: What the Founding Fathers wanted
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322071739.5925d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



The intent of the founding fathers was not to put ourselves in the place
of the them. It was a much harder and more rewarding road,

To understand the philosophy and process of Americal democracy.

We have failed.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Mar 22 07:34:18 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:34:18 -0800
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against 
  FilteringSoftware[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <3ABA0971.85D6DC89@ameritech.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
  <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net>
  <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]>
  <20010321143953.B3527@savvis.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010322073418.007e1150@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:17 AM 3/22/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>     In the city I presently live in, Oshkosh, WI, we have a system of city
>government in which we have no real representation whatsoever. The city
>council is elected at large -- meaning we have no ward alderman, and, in
fact,
>most of the time all the council members are from the newer burbs where the
>more affluent live. The city council then elects the mayor. This is a city of
>just over 50K.
>      This is supposed to be "progressive".  I can't wait until the states
and
>the fed go this route. Seems to me to be totally unconstitutional -- taxation
>w/o representation to the core -- but what do I know.

That's a quantization issue ---you are recognizing a 'ward' but the 'at large'
election means the city is the unit of quantization.  If you got 'ward'
voting someone could complain that smaller units were fairer, etc.

In some places whether or not you feel 'represented' might include whether
your religion (sex, albedo, etc.) was 'represented' by either a representative
who looked like you or who held a formal position given to those of your type.
(cf the protestants' representation in various (catholic) north ireland legal
bodies)

Another interesting facet of 'representation' is how obligated your
'representatives'
are to act as their electors wish, and penalties they face for violating
constitutions.  

And whether subsets are 'allowed' to leave and form their own representative
bodies (cf LA vs. the Valley, FRY, US civil war)







.......




From hseaver at ameritech.net  Thu Mar 22 06:17:23 2001
From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:17:23 -0600
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against
  FilteringSoftware[Censorware]
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
  <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net>
  <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]>
  <20010321143953.B3527@savvis.net>
Message-ID: <3ABA0971.85D6DC89@ameritech.net>


     In the city I presently live in, Oshkosh, WI, we have a system of city
government in which we have no real representation whatsoever. The city
council is elected at large -- meaning we have no ward alderman, and, in fact,
most of the time all the council members are from the newer burbs where the
more affluent live. The city council then elects the mayor. This is a city of
just over 50K.
      This is supposed to be "progressive".  I can't wait until the states and
the fed go this route. Seems to me to be totally unconstitutional -- taxation
w/o representation to the core -- but what do I know.



Jim Burnes wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:10:03AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> >
> > No surprise to most members of this list that this government trend
> > toward withholding money it has taken in other ways is a serious
> > threat to freedom.
>
> I believe the original rallying cry was:
>
> "No Taxation Without Representation"
>
> Conditional representation (of which taxation is clearly but a part)
> should be provably unconstitutional.
>
> Wait, I forgot.  I thought we were still in a republic.
>
> Never mind.
>
> jim
>
> --
> Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
> himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
> found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
> question.       -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From listmaster at specialtysalesonline.com  Thu Mar 22 05:21:42 2001
From: listmaster at specialtysalesonline.com (Specialty Online Sales)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:21:42 -0500
Subject: Join Shopping & Investing Club...
Message-ID: <200103221321.f2MDLg228068@db3.specialtysalesonline.com>

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From bear at sonic.net  Thu Mar 22 08:36:40 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:36:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
In-Reply-To: <99b89r$lgd$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103220833330.26038-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




In article <20010321133551.B2386 at cluebot.com>,
Declan McCullagh  <declan at well.com> wrote:

>   Pretty Good Privacy that permits digital signatures to be forged in
>   some situations.
>   
>   Phil Zimmermann, the PGP inventor who's now the director of the
>   OpenPGP Consortium, said on Wednesday that he and a Network Associates
>   (NETA) engineer verified that the vulnerability exists.
>   
>   ICZ, a Prague company with 450 employees, said that two of its
>   cryptologists unearthed a bug in the OpenPGP format that allows an
>   adversary who breaks into your computer to forge your e-mail
>   signature.

A "vulnerability" that requires the opponent to have write access 
to your private key in order to exploit?  

Okay.  What was PGP's threat model again?  I'd have sworn that this 
was squarely outside it.  

As far as I can tell, *NOBODY* offers security tools that offer real 
protection in the event your opponent has physical access to the 
machine. 

			Bear




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar 22 07:02:31 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:02:31 -0600
Subject: Salon.com People | Welcome to my world
Message-ID: <3ABA1407.3E40F9A5@dev.tivoli.com>



A reflective view on American culture...

http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/print.html

-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From kentsnyder at thelibertycommittee.org  Thu Mar 22 06:36:33 2001
From: kentsnyder at thelibertycommittee.org (Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:36:33 -0500
Subject: Release:  "Medical Privacy" Doesn't Mean Privacy
Message-ID: <00dd01c0b2dd$bd35a560$9d00a8c0@kent>


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - Thursday, March 22, 2001

Contact:  Kent Snyder, 703-241-1003
E-mail:  mailto:kentsnyder at thelibertycommittee.org
Web site:  http://www.thelibertycommittee.org
The Liberty Committee
701 W. Broad St., Fifth Floor
Falls Church, VA  22046

"MEDICAL PRIVACY" DOESN'T MEAN PRIVACY IN WASHINGTON

"Washington's dirty little secret is out -- the so-called 'final federal
medical privacy rule' recently announced by the federal government
gives us less privacy, not more," stated Kent Snyder of The Liberty
Committee.

Section 160.310: Grants the U.S. Department of Health and Human
Services access to a person's medical information without his consent
or a warrant.

Section 164.512: Grants many third parties access to a person's medical
information (including genetic information) without his written,
informed, non-coerced (as in "sign away your right to privacy or we will
deny treatment") consent.

Sections 164.502 and 164.506: The U.S. Department of Health and Human
Services has the ultimate authority to decide who can access your
medical records without your informed consent.

"The truth is that laced throughout the 367-page federal medical privacy
rule are provisions that actually give a patient less control over his
own medical records than he currently has.  At the same time, these
regulations give federal, state, and local governmental agencies --
along with insurance companies, HMOs and others -- more access
and more control than the patient himself has," Kent Snyder stated.

Reacting to growing public concern, U.S. Department of Health and Human
Services Secretary Tommy Thompson reopened the comment period on these
deceptive "privacy" regulations.  Unfortunately, in order for a
citizen's comment to be acceptable, it must follow guidelines as to form
and content -- thus ensuring that many well-meant and deeply felt
concerns will be discarded as simply not in compliance. As a public
service, The Liberty Committee is providing a free on-line petition that
meets the guidelines for comments and reminds Washington what the true
definition of "privacy" is.

The petition can be found at
http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/medprivacypetition.htm .

The Liberty Committee is a nationwide, grassroots organization of over
51,000 Americans whose goal is to defend and advance liberty by
restoring our national government to its constitutional limitations.

-30-





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 22 06:58:50 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:58:50 -0500
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Onlin e
   John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC3F@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com] wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
> 
> > You gnaw at a branch and call it a root.
> 
> Opposite ends of the same thing. You can't have one without the other so
> in a very real way to eat a potato is to chew on a potato branch (in a
> figurative way of course).
> 
I fell awfully tempted NOT to inform Jim that potato leaves are poisonous
:-)

[...]

Peter Trei




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 22 06:58:50 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:58:50 -0500
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Onlin
	e  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC3F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>



> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com] wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
> 
> > You gnaw at a branch and call it a root.
> 
> Opposite ends of the same thing. You can't have one without the other so
> in a very real way to eat a potato is to chew on a potato branch (in a
> figurative way of course).
> 
I fell awfully tempted NOT to inform Jim that potato leaves are poisonous
:-)

[...]

Peter Trei






From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Thu Mar 22 09:37:08 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:37:08 -0600
Subject: Motion To Quash Choate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321213835.5925Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEGKCHAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Choate said:

(Quoting me)
> You have common law (the law of common men, lex communis), and legislative
> law (bringing the law of the sovereign).

> You draw a false distinction, the Constitution starts out with what
> phrase?
>
>      Section. 1.
>      All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a
>      Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and
>      House of Representatives.

NO. 1

JIM CHOATE, PLAINTIFF 	'
				'
			VS.	'	CYPHERPUNKS
				'
AIMEE FARR, DEFENDANT	'


MOTION TO QUASH CONSTITUTIONAL CHOATIAN THREADS

TO THE HONORABLE JUDGE OF CYPHERPUNKS:

NOW COMES ~Aimee, hereinafter referred to as "Defendant," and files this
Motion To Dissolve Constitutional Choatian Threads and would show:

1. Whereas Defendant is alleged to "draw" constitutional false distinctions,
Plaintiff "doodles" them.

2. Defendant's aim was to give Plaintiff some historical context for legal
delineations, which have become blurred over the ages (and marred by legal
authorship blinded by egocentric political/time views).
Chieftain-king-sovereign-legislative law deals with the individual<-->"king"
relationship. Ancient common law is man<-->man law, arising out of custom
and usage. While common law no longer plays the role it once did (being
usurped by statutory/legislative law) some distinctions remain that were
carried over into English common law. Furthermore, Defendant would show that
not every legal question invokes the purview of the US Const., because it
lies outside of the individual<-->"king" relationship, and even our enhanced
interpretations of the same. In a historical context, "legislative law"
(Lat. "bringing law") *includes* constitutional law, and is therefore not a
false distinction, although perhaps a modern linguistic misnomer. Defendant
went as far back as Aristotle, before many legal divergences.

3. Plaintiff ignores the role of the courts and treats the US Const. as the
wellspring of ALL law in this country. It is the wellspring of many things,
(indeed, more than The Framers ever contemplated) but it is not the singular
Garden of Eden for all U.S. jurisprudence. Plaintiff repeatedly
mischaracterizes political opinion as legal argument, and proffers arguments
based on his own "tarot card reading" of the U.S. Constitution.

4. Plaintiff's constitutional questions grow like kudzu...wandering, in the
opinion of many, far from any questions of direct and particular relevance
to this forum. Plaintiff should pick up some law outlines/bar reviews and go
beyond the letter of the Constitution and the words of the founding fathers.
Plaintiff should take some courses, join some *constitutional law mailing
lists*, and multidisciplinary legal societies to broaden Plaintiff's frame
of reference so he may entertain more complex constitutional analysis, and
pose questions that are more likely to be of interest to IAAL and IANAL
constitutional thinkers. See _Sunder v. Choate_, Message-ID:
3AAE7D40.EC9C0BCF at sunder.net ("Clue: this is cypherpunks, not
lawyerpunks.");  _Sandfort v. Choate_, Message-ID:
NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFEEMEDCAA. sandfort at mindspring.com ("You can spend three
years in law school and learn something, read a book or two about the
origins Anglo-American jurisprudence or live in darkness. The choice is
yours.").

						CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
This is to certify that on March 22, 2001, a true and correct copy of the
above and foregoing document was served on JIM CHOATE, Plaintiff, by
ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com.

						ORDER SETTING HEARING
On this the 22nd day of March, 2001, came on before me the foregoing Motion
To Quash; and

It is ordered that said motion is hereby set for hearing before the Court at
Cypherpunks at lne.com ("mailing list") at 12. A.M. on March 22, 2001.

				Signed this the 22 day of March 2001.


				_______________________________________
				JUDGE
				CYPHERPUNKS


Respectfully submitted,

~Aimee




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Thu Mar 22 09:33:01 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:33:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103220833330.26038-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10103221232200.9732-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>



> A "vulnerability" that requires the opponent to have write access 
> to your private key in order to exploit?  
> 
> Okay.  What was PGP's threat model again?  I'd have sworn that this 
> was squarely outside it.  

Probably. Do you need only write access? What does that do for smart
cards - if anything?

-David




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 13:45:25 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:45:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Open sesame
Message-ID: <20010322214525.20934.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>


Depending on your PPL (personal paranoia level), this may sound as an
boring conspiracy theory or be the reason to stop using things with
transistors in them :-)


(1) Take a block cipher with block size b and key size k. Any block cipher.

(2) Assume that k > b.

(3) Now, if you take a particular input block B (plaintext), and encrypt it
with all possible keys (2**k), a decent cipher should produce output that
covers full 2**b output space, right ? 

(4) The question is: is there such B that, in process (3) generates output
from which (part of) each key can be trivially inferred ? For instance,
the output is a ROT-13 of the lower b bits of the key, or blowfish encrypted
upper b bits of the key (with the blowfish key being "suckers suckers ").
You get the drift.

(5) is it possible to prove that the answer to (4) is "yes" or "no" ? What
could be learned by doing the brute force test on 56-bit DES for two keys
and trying to find correlation in the resulting 2**57 space ?

(6) If it is impossible to prove that the answer to (4) is "no", what can be
done to prevent the chosen plaintext attack ?


[as for conspiracy, if the answer is "yes", then only two block ciphers need
to have this feature: DES and AES. Easily done and not too expensive either.]


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From d4rft at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 12:47:42 2001
From: d4rft at yahoo.com (d4rft at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:47:42 -0700
Subject: 10 Million Email Addresses, Stealth Mass Mailer & More..                         394
Message-ID: <200103222043.EAA0000026476@axp600a.csc.cuhk.edu.hk>

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From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Thu Mar 22 10:56:56 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:56:56 -0500
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103220833330.26038-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <MAEJKAJCIGHONDJLKPFPGEPECDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



"...As far as I can tell, *NOBODY* offers security tools that offer real
protection in the event your opponent has physical access to the
machine...  Bear"

I completely agree.  Even if they didn't have access to the machine, losing
the private key is a huge problem.

I should point out a similar problem exists with microsoft's crypto api
(capi).  by replacing rsaenh.dll (and one other i could name later...details
are on my research laptop and not on this machine) one could dummy down
encryption or eliminate encryption control across all crypto api-compliant
applications (like ms outlook, explorer, etc.)  in fact this 'crack' is
simiar to the 'upgrade' ms offers users to go from 56 to 128 bit encryption.
interestingly, in order to gain export assurance for a crypto product, it's
usually enough to state that your product's crypto relies on the MS crypto
api.  this is because the ms crypto api architecture has already received an
"ok" for export (with caveats re: 128 bit encryption.)  i've been through
this process so I know the 'crack' and the export license information is
correct (as of one year ago anyway).

the most significant problem with pki, imho, is the fact one can't verify
the publisher of the key.  the public key could have been stolen/modified,
or the issuer of the key may not have verified the true identity of the
requestor.  i could, right now, buy for $14.95, a digital cert from verisign
claiming I'm napoleon bonaparte.  and it would be published in their digital
cert. directory as true.  ya know, i'm going to do that right now.

anyway, as many have already echoed here, gaining access to an adversary's
machine provides more interesting possibilities than simply modifying a
user's secret key.  i would hope the cnsa would try to be more creative than
that.

phillip


In article <20010321133551.B2386 at cluebot.com>,
Declan McCullagh  <declan at well.com> wrote:

>   Pretty Good Privacy that permits digital signatures to be forged in
>   some situations.
>
>   Phil Zimmermann, the PGP inventor who's now the director of the
>   OpenPGP Consortium, said on Wednesday that he and a Network Associates
>   (NETA) engineer verified that the vulnerability exists.
>
>   ICZ, a Prague company with 450 employees, said that two of its
>   cryptologists unearthed a bug in the OpenPGP format that allows an
>   adversary who breaks into your computer to forge your e-mail
>   signature.

A "vulnerability" that requires the opponent to have write access
to your private key in order to exploit?

Okay.  What was PGP's threat model again?  I'd have sworn that this
was squarely outside it.

As far as I can tell, *NOBODY* offers security tools that offer real
protection in the event your opponent has physical access to the
machine.

			Bear





From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar 22 11:57:02 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:57:02 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Suspect linked to bin Laden held secretly 4 months - March 22, 
 2001
Message-ID: <3ABA590E.186F9B1A@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/03/22/embassy.bombings.suspect.ap/index.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar 22 12:02:51 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:02:51 -0600
Subject: Companies crack down on loose lips - Tech News - CNET.com
Message-ID: <3ABA5A6B.589AB6B1@dev.tivoli.com>


http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-201-5209901-0.html?tag=bt_pr
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Mar 22 12:43:12 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:43:12 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Don't Trust Code Signed by 'Microsoft Corporation'
Message-ID: <3ABA63E0.F73DA955@dev.tivoli.com>



VeriSign probably needs to update their verification process...

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/22/1947233.shtml

-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From d4rft at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 13:49:10 2001
From: d4rft at yahoo.com (d4rft at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:49:10 -0700
Subject: 10 Million Email Addresses, Stealth Mass Mailer & More..                         12440
Message-ID: <200103222145.FAA0000006609@axp600a.csc.cuhk.edu.hk>

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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Mar 22 06:56:56 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:56:56 +0000
Subject: Hints...
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321225746.5925U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3ABA12B8.CE1552A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Jim Choate wrote:

> The reality is that ALL law in this country was 'reset' (to use modern
> parlance) with the Declaration of Independence.

Really? So murder, theft,  assault & battery were all unpunished by the
local governments in the new States from Independence until they got
around to passing new laws? Debts went unpaid without resort to the
courts, contracts were unfilled subject to no sanction other than the
opprobrium of neighbours? That the new United States were functional
anarchies until new legislatures imposed new rules?

I don't think so. What I suspect happened was that the administration of
local government and the local courts carried on exactly as before, that
office holders continued in office (even with the same title - which is
how you come to have "governors" and which is hardly a republican term),
judges continued to judge, juries to do whatever juries did back then,
administering exactly the same laws on the 5th of July as they had on
the 3rd.

Which of course is why, in a sense, it really was more of a "war of
independence" (as it is usually called over here on the downwind side of
the North Atlantic) than a "revolution". In a revolution everything is
up for grabs, things change and change fast. Revolutions get mixed up
with people like Jacobins, Bolsheviks, Hezbollah  (or for that matter
Diggers, Levellers and Ranters) who want to change everything from the
bottom up. In the USA that happened to some extent, but it was a process
that took decades, and nowhere near as root-and-branch as, say the
French Revolution. America the day after Independence was still in many
ways the same America that had been the day before.

Ken




From aluger at hushmail.com  Thu Mar 22 14:58:21 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:58:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
Message-ID: <200103222256.OAA10588@user1.hushmail.com>


At Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:01:56 -0500, "Phillip Hallam-Baker" <hallam at ai.mit.edu> 
wrote:

>
>The report is incorrect in stating that PGP is the most popular email
>security package, there are 100 million copies of S/MIME enabled
>email applications in use.

And how many of those "in use" applications actually USE the S/MIME feature? 
 I love the creative accounting practice that makes this argument.



>
>	Phill
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>> [mailto:owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu]On Behalf Of Declan
>> McCullagh
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 1:36 PM
>> To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; cryptography at c2.net
>> Cc: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>> Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42553,00.html
>>    
>>    Your E-Hancock Can Be Forged
>>    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
>>    10:20 a.m. Mar. 21, 2001 PST
>>    
>>    WASHINGTON -- A Czech information security firm has found a flaw 
>in
>>    Pretty Good Privacy that permits digital signatures to be forged 
>in
>>    some situations.
>>    
>>    Phil Zimmermann, the PGP inventor who's now the director of the
>>    OpenPGP Consortium, said on Wednesday that he and a 
>> Network Associates
>>    (NETA) engineer verified that the vulnerability exists.
>>    
>>    ICZ, a Prague company with 450 employees, said that two of its
>>    cryptologists unearthed a bug in the OpenPGP format that allows 
>an
>>    adversary who breaks into your computer to forge your e-mail
>>    signature.
>>    
>>    Both Zimmermann and the Czech engineers, Vlastimil Klima and Tomas
>>    Rosa, point out that the glitch does not affect messages encrypted
>>    with PGP. OpenPGP programs -- including GNU Privacy Guard and newer
>>    versions of PGP -- use different algorithms for signing and
>>    scrambling, and only the digital signature method is at risk.
>>    
>>    PGP and its offspring are by far the most popular e-mail encryption
>>    programs in the world. Nobody has disclosed a flaw in their
>>    message-scrambling mechanisms, but PGP owner Network Associates
>>    suffered an embarrassment last August when a German cryptanalyst
>>    published a way that allows  an attacker to hoodwink PGP into not
>>    encoding secret information properly.
>>    
>>    In this case, someone wishing to impersonate you would need to 
>gain
>>    access to your secret key -- usually stored on a hard drive or 
>a
>>    floppy disk -- surreptitiously modify it, then obtain a message 
>you
>>    signed using the altered secret key. Once those steps are complete,
>>    that person could then digitally sign messages using your name.
>>    
>>    "PGP or any program based on the OpenPGP format that does 
>> not have any
>>    extra integrity check will not recognize such modification 
>> and it will
>>    allow you to sign a message with the corrupted key," says Rosa,
> who
>>    works at Decros, an ICZ company. Rosa says he demonstrated the
>>    vulnerability with PGP 7.0.3.
>> 
>>    [...]
>
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 22 12:31:04 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:31:04 -0500
Subject: Hacker obtains "Microsoft" code signing key; 
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC41@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


My reading of this is that a hacker managed to 
human-engineer Verisign into signing a public
key used for codesigning. While the key is
signed as being Microsofts, it is in fact the
hackers. He can therefore sign his own
ActiveX  components and make them appear
come from Microsoft. Trojan horses, anyone?

Verisign should be getting a lot of flack on this
one - they're who business model relys on being
a trustworthy confirmer of identies.

Peter Trei

---------------------------------------


http://www.msnbc.com/news/548228.asp

Microsoft digital certificate stolen

Verisign issued "virtual notary seal" to computer criminal
                By Bob Sullivan
                      MSNBC

     March 22 Microsoft Corp. issued a warning today to all
its customers that a computer criminal has obtained a
digital certificate with the company's name and
authority. The equivalent of a royal seal, digital
certificates prove software code was written by a particular
company and is safe. Microsoft said the criminal tricked
Verisign Inc. into issuing two of the certificates. The
software giant is warning users to be suspicious of any
program that arrives with a certificate claiming
Microsoft's authority.

     MICROSOFT'S SCOTT CULP said Verisign issued the two
fake certificates accidentally on Jan. 29 and Jan. 30, and
discovered the mistake only recently.  (MSNBC is a
Microsoft-NBC joint venture.)

     Web browsers generally encounter such certificates
when the arrive on a Web site that has an ActiveX control,
which allows dynamic content. Usually, a dialog box pops up
asking the users if they would like to trust the code and
allow it to run on the their machines.

     The fraudulent certificates would indicate to a user
that the code was written by Microsoft and might trick a
victim into allowing the code to run.

     "That's exactly one of the scenarios that pose the
greatest risk," Culp said.  

     The firm is working on a downloadable solution for the
problem, but it won't be ready for about a week, Culp
said. In the meantime, he urged Web users to be suspicious
of any digital certificate they encounter, suggesting they
check the certificate's details.

     "Anything that says it was issued on 29th and
30th of January is bogus. Do not trust it," Culp said.

HUMAN ERROR?

     Culp blamed the problem on human error inside
Verisign. He said law enforcement is now working with the
company to track the criminal, who apparently was able to
convince Verisign he was a Microsoft employee.

     "This wasn't a failure of technology. It was a failure
of one particular Certificate authority to follow its
procedures," he said.

     Digital certificates are issued by third parties,
called certificate authorities, as a way of virtually
"notarizing" computer code. There are hundreds of
authorities, but Verisign is one of the largest. Each
authority is supposed to follow detailed procedures to
verify the identity of the programmer making a certificate
request.  

     Verisign did not immediately return phone calls.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 22 12:31:04 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:31:04 -0500
Subject: Hacker obtains "Microsoft" code signing key; 
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC41@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


My reading of this is that a hacker managed to 
human-engineer Verisign into signing a public
key used for codesigning. While the key is
signed as being Microsofts, it is in fact the
hackers. He can therefore sign his own
ActiveX  components and make them appear
come from Microsoft. Trojan horses, anyone?

Verisign should be getting a lot of flack on this
one - they're who business model relys on being
a trustworthy confirmer of identies.

Peter Trei

---------------------------------------


http://www.msnbc.com/news/548228.asp

Microsoft digital certificate stolen

Verisign issued "virtual notary seal" to computer criminal
                By Bob Sullivan
                      MSNBC

     March 22 Microsoft Corp. issued a warning today to all
its customers that a computer criminal has obtained a
digital certificate with the company's name and
authority. The equivalent of a royal seal, digital
certificates prove software code was written by a particular
company and is safe. Microsoft said the criminal tricked
Verisign Inc. into issuing two of the certificates. The
software giant is warning users to be suspicious of any
program that arrives with a certificate claiming
Microsoft's authority.

     MICROSOFT'S SCOTT CULP said Verisign issued the two
fake certificates accidentally on Jan. 29 and Jan. 30, and
discovered the mistake only recently.  (MSNBC is a
Microsoft-NBC joint venture.)

     Web browsers generally encounter such certificates
when the arrive on a Web site that has an ActiveX control,
which allows dynamic content. Usually, a dialog box pops up
asking the users if they would like to trust the code and
allow it to run on the their machines.

     The fraudulent certificates would indicate to a user
that the code was written by Microsoft and might trick a
victim into allowing the code to run.

     "That's exactly one of the scenarios that pose the
greatest risk," Culp said.  

     The firm is working on a downloadable solution for the
problem, but it won't be ready for about a week, Culp
said. In the meantime, he urged Web users to be suspicious
of any digital certificate they encounter, suggesting they
check the certificate's details.

     "Anything that says it was issued on 29th and
30th of January is bogus. Do not trust it," Culp said.

HUMAN ERROR?

     Culp blamed the problem on human error inside
Verisign. He said law enforcement is now working with the
company to track the criminal, who apparently was able to
convince Verisign he was a Microsoft employee.

     "This wasn't a failure of technology. It was a failure
of one particular Certificate authority to follow its
procedures," he said.

     Digital certificates are issued by third parties,
called certificate authorities, as a way of virtually
"notarizing" computer code. There are hundreds of
authorities, but Verisign is one of the largest. Each
authority is supposed to follow detailed procedures to
verify the identity of the programmer making a certificate
request.  

     Verisign did not immediately return phone calls.




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 22 17:41:31 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:41:31 -1000
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103220833330.26038-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <99b89r$lgd$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010322154052.00e6bed0@flex.com>


At 08:36 AM 3/22/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
 >In article <20010321133551.B2386 at cluebot.com>,
 >Declan McCullagh  <declan at well.com> wrote:
 >
 >>   Pretty Good Privacy that permits digital signatures to be forged in
 >>   some situations.
 >>
 >>   Phil Zimmermann, the PGP inventor who's now the director of the
 >>   OpenPGP Consortium, said on Wednesday that he and a Network Associates
 >>   (NETA) engineer verified that the vulnerability exists.
 >>
 >>   ICZ, a Prague company with 450 employees, said that two of its
 >>   cryptologists unearthed a bug in the OpenPGP format that allows an
 >>   adversary who breaks into your computer to forge your e-mail
 >>   signature.
 >
 >A "vulnerability" that requires the opponent to have write access
 >to your private key in order to exploit?
 >
 >Okay.  What was PGP's threat model again?  I'd have sworn that this
 >was squarely outside it.
 >
 >As far as I can tell, *NOBODY* offers security tools that offer real
 >protection in the event your opponent has physical access to the
 >machine.

Maybe acme.com???
Always did right by Wile E. Coyote,,,  ;)

Reese




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 22 17:46:32 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:46:32 -1000
Subject: Choatian agriculture
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322181939.5925n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <3ABA1584.40E19897@farc.org>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010322154435.00e6dd70@flex.com>


At 06:20 PM 3/22/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Blank Frank wrote:
 >> At 09:43 PM 3/21/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >> >On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
 >> >> You gnaw at a branch and call it a root.
 >> >
 >> >Opposite ends of the same thing. You can't have one without the other
 >> so
 >> >in a very real way to eat a potato
 >>
 >> Only JC would introduce a tuber into a discussion of roots and branches.
 >>
 >> Simply amazing.
 >
 >I didn't introduce it, Amiee did. She gets all the credit.

Root == Tuber is attributable to Amiee?  I hope she calls it a Choatism,
another fine example of Choatesque speech, or Choate-speak for short.  ;)

Reese




From bf at farc.org  Thu Mar 22 16:00:07 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:00:07 -0800
Subject: 8 year old arrested for paper gun, words
Message-ID: <3ABA9206.BE5758ED@farc.org>



               Irvington Pupils Face
               Charges for Playing With
               Paper Gun.

               March 22, 2001

               IRVINGTON, N.J. (AP) _ Two second-graders playing cops
               and robbers with a paper gun were charged with making
               terrorist threats.

               The boys' parents said the situation should have been
               resolved in the principal's office, but Police Chief
Steven
               Palamara on Wednesday defended school officials and the
               district's zero-tolerance policy.

               ``It may appear to some as though we went a little
               overboard because it was a paper gun, but what would
               those same people say if this incident was ignored and in
a
               day, week or month the same student came to school with a

               firearm?'' Palamara asked.

               Authorities said that 8-year-old Hamadi Alston stood up
at
               his desk at Augusta Street School last Thursday, pointed
               paper folded to look like a gun at his classmates and
said,
               ``I'm going to kill you all.''

               Hamadi said he was imitating what his friend, Jaquill
               Shelton, had done earlier that day.

               The police chief said Jaquill had given Hamadi the paper
               gun in the bathroom.

               The two boys were suspended and, under the district's
               zero-tolerance policy, school officials notified police,
who
               charged the boys.

               ``Although the paper handgun posed no immediate threat to

               the students in the class, the words spoken certainly and

               appropriately were recognized by school officials and
               police as warning signs to cause concern,'' Palamara
said.

               The court can now determine whether either boy needs
               counseling or just a stern warning, he said.

               The parents, as well as the Essex County prosecutor's
               office, were involved immediately, he said.

               The prosecutor's office did not immediately return a
               message seeking comment on Wednesday.

               ``This is just stupid, stupid, stupid,'' Ron Alston,
Hamadi's
               father, told The Star-Ledger of Newark. ``How can you
take
               two boys to the police precinct over a paper gun? This is

               very bad judgment.''

               Superintendent Ernest Smith said he believes the boys
               meant no harm, but district policy requires that police
be
               notified of such incidents.

               ``I thought this was unfortunate,'' Smith said. ``But,
being
               that kids are being shot in schools across the country,
               children have to be taught they can't say certain words
in
               public.''




From bear at sonic.net  Thu Mar 22 17:37:28 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:37:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 8 year old arrested for paper gun, words
In-Reply-To: <3ABA9206.BE5758ED@farc.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103221733500.23199-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Blank Frank wrote:

>
>               Irvington Pupils Face
>               Charges for Playing With
>               Paper Gun.

How times turn.  In most schools, there's a trophy case. 
And dated not so long ago, in many of them, there are 
marksmanship trophies...  We had a varsity marksmanship 
squad, but I guess that was longer ago and further away 
than most folks are allowed to think now. 

Huzzah for the demise of school sports competitions...  

				Bear




From alan at clueserver.org  Thu Mar 22 18:04:43 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:04:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 8 year old arrested for paper gun, words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103221733500.23199-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103221803190.23821-100000@clueserver.org>


On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> How times turn.  In most schools, there's a trophy case. 
> And dated not so long ago, in many of them, there are 
> marksmanship trophies...  We had a varsity marksmanship 
> squad, but I guess that was longer ago and further away 
> than most folks are allowed to think now. 

My brother has his "letter" in High School from the school shooting team.
That was only about five years ago or so.

> Huzzah for the demise of school sports competitions...  

I think we are losing the wrong ones.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar 22 16:18:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:18:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hints...
In-Reply-To: <3ABA12B8.CE1552A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322181617.5925m-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > The reality is that ALL law in this country was 'reset' (to use modern
> > parlance) with the Declaration of Independence.
> 
> Really?

Yes.

> So murder, theft,  assault & battery were all unpunished by the
> local governments in the new States from Independence until they got
> around to passing new laws? Debts went unpaid without resort to the
> courts, contracts were unfilled subject to no sanction other than the
> opprobrium of neighbours? That the new United States were functional
> anarchies until new legislatures imposed new rules?

No, and you know that. Once the Declaration of Independence was issued and
prior the Constitution each local community and state issued their own
laws, laws that were not English law per se.

Simply saying 'the laws of the US are no made in England' is not the same
as saying there are no laws.

A bullshit strawman.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar 22 16:20:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:20:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Choatian agriculture
In-Reply-To: <3ABA1584.40E19897@farc.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322181939.5925n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Blank Frank wrote:

> At 09:43 PM 3/21/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
> >> You gnaw at a branch and call it a root.
> >
> >Opposite ends of the same thing. You can't have one without the other
> so
> >in a very real way to eat a potato
> 
> Only JC would introduce a tuber into a discussion of roots and branches.
> 
> Simply amazing.

I didn't introduce it, Amiee did. She gets all the credit.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar 22 16:29:35 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:29:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in Onlin e  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC3F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322182859.5925v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> I fell awfully tempted NOT to inform Jim that potato leaves are poisonous
> :-)

Clearly not personal experience talking.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Mar 22 18:53:26 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:53:26 -0800
Subject: 8 year old arrested for paper gun, words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103221733500.23199-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <3ABA9206.BE5758ED@farc.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010322185103.00a1d890@idiom.com>


Yes, but either the kids didn't say things like
"I'm going to kill you all" to the class,
or else they watched the TV News enough to know whether
it's a bad day to say that sort of thing (....)

Or at least they only said it on the playground when they were playing
Native Americans and Invading European Cattle-Enslavers.


At 05:37 PM 03/22/2001 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:


>On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Blank Frank wrote:
>
> >
> >               Irvington Pupils Face
> >               Charges for Playing With
> >               Paper Gun.
>
>How times turn.  In most schools, there's a trophy case.
>And dated not so long ago, in many of them, there are
>marksmanship trophies...  We had a varsity marksmanship
>squad, but I guess that was longer ago and further away
>than most folks are allowed to think now.
>
>Huzzah for the demise of school sports competitions...
>
>                                 Bear





From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 22 21:37:03 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 19:37:03 -1000
Subject: Choatian agriculture
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322214026.5925z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010322154435.00e6dd70@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010322192904.00e787b0@flex.com>


At 09:50 PM 3/22/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Reese wrote:
 >>>On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Blank Frank wrote:
 >
 >>>> Only JC would introduce a tuber into a discussion of roots and
 >>>> branches.
 >
 >> Root == Tuber is attributable to Amiee?  I hope she calls it a
 >> Choatism, another fine example of Choatesque speech, or Choate-
 >>speak for short.  ;)
 >
 >A 'tuber' is a swelling on a 'stem' (that in the case of a potato happens
 >to be underground. A stem is a 'stalk' that bears flowers, fruits, potato
 >eyes, etc. A stalk is simply a cylindrical 'body' (the thing the xylem and
 >floem are in). And if you look up 'tuber' and 'potato' you'll find them
 >listed in 'root and tuber crops'.

Gee, I thought a potato was a tuber that formed from a rhizome.  You will
want to notify these folks so they can update their webpage, as well pass
the word to the references they cite.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/biotech/potato.html

A rhizome is a somewhat elongated usually horizontal subterranean plant
stem that is often thickened by deposits of reserve food material.  It 
produces shoots above and roots below, and is distinguished from a true
root in possessing buds, nodes, and usually scalelike leaves.

Rhizome |= root, potato |= root.

 >You guys failed Botany 101, clearly.

Clearly.

Reese




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 22 16:38:11 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 19:38:11 -0500
Subject: Potatos. [was: John Doe vs. John Doe...]
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC43@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com]
> On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
> > I fell awfully tempted NOT to inform Jim that potato leaves are
> poisonous
> > :-)
> 
> Clearly not personal experience talking.
> 
Of course not! I try to learn from *other* peoples mistakes.

http://www.life.umd.edu/classroom/BSCI124/lec30.html
LECTURE 30 - POISONOUS AND ALLERGENIC PLANTS 

[...]

2. Saponins (e.g. tomatine in tomato, solanine in potato) 
a. Natural soaps (as in century plants (Agave))- develop bubbles 
    but poke holes in membranes (by aggregating cholesterol)
b. Causes nausea, vomiting, diarrhea
c. Solanine present in potato (Solanum tuberosum) - most of 
    plant except tubers is poisonous. Tuber contains solanine
    too, but toxic dose is about 100 potatoes. Green potatoes 
    (which turn green after exposure to sunlight) can cause fatal
    poisonings. Green and damaged potatoes are even more toxic. 

[...]




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 22 16:38:11 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 19:38:11 -0500
Subject: Potatos. [was: John Doe vs. John Doe...]
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC43@exna07.securitydynamics.com>



> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com]
> On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
> > I fell awfully tempted NOT to inform Jim that potato leaves are
> poisonous
> > :-)
> 
> Clearly not personal experience talking.
> 
Of course not! I try to learn from *other* peoples mistakes.

http://www.life.umd.edu/classroom/BSCI124/lec30.html
LECTURE 30 - POISONOUS AND ALLERGENIC PLANTS 

[...]

2. Saponins (e.g. tomatine in tomato, solanine in potato) 
a. Natural soaps (as in century plants (Agave))- develop bubbles 
    but poke holes in membranes (by aggregating cholesterol)
b. Causes nausea, vomiting, diarrhea
c. Solanine present in potato (Solanum tuberosum) - most of 
    plant except tubers is poisonous. Tuber contains solanine
    too, but toxic dose is about 100 potatoes. Green potatoes 
    (which turn green after exposure to sunlight) can cause fatal
    poisonings. Green and damaged potatoes are even more toxic. 

[...]





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar 22 19:50:27 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:50:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Choatian agriculture
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010322154435.00e6dd70@flex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010322214026.5925z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Reese wrote:

>  >On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Blank Frank wrote:

>  >> Only JC would introduce a tuber into a discussion of roots and branches.

> Root == Tuber is attributable to Amiee?  I hope she calls it a Choatism,
> another fine example of Choatesque speech, or Choate-speak for short.  ;)

A 'tuber' is a swelling on a 'stem' (that in the case of a potato happens
to be underground. A stem is a 'stalk' that bears flowers, fruits, potato
eyes, etc. A stalk is simply a cylindrical 'body' (the thing the xylem and
floem are in). And if you look up 'tuber' and 'potato' you'll find them
listed in 'root and tuber crops'.

You guys failed Botany 101, clearly.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 22 23:55:24 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:55:24 -1000
Subject: Hints...
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6e09f28c22d@[207.111.241.192]>
References: <F282breLDwdbWKEVqr40000739f@hotmail.com>
 <F282breLDwdbWKEVqr40000739f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010322215436.00af2570@flex.com>


At 10:38 PM 3/22/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:

 >Sometimes I think the Cypherpunks list would be the first place to
 >start when the Master Cull begins.

That begs the question.  Hi Tim.

Reese




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 21:56:31 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:56:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
Message-ID: <20010323055631.96638.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>


>Okay. What was PGP's threat model again?  I'd have sworn that this
>was squarely outside it.
>
>As far as I can tell, *NOBODY* offers security tools that offer real
>protection in the event your opponent has physical access to the
>machine.

BO, trojans, http tunelling and similar are really not rocket science
these days. 99% of sheeple machines are vulnerable. This is perfectly
valid and real attack. Not on my machines and probably not on yours -
that does not make any difference.

This is just another data point supporting secure devices insulated
from microshit OS, java and wintels in general. Running PGP in the
environment where attachment execution and/or java and/or activex are
tolerated does not make any sense.

And *THERE ARE* tools that offer real protection. Look up iButtons
running RSA and holding the secret key. If it's not sold in Wallmart
that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Mar 22 20:08:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 22:08:46 -0600
Subject: The Register - Zimmerman and the PGP flaw
Message-ID: <3ABACC4E.F7077E3@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17808.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Mar 22 22:38:40 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 22:38:40 -0800
Subject: Hints...
In-Reply-To: <F282breLDwdbWKEVqr40000739f@hotmail.com>
References: <F282breLDwdbWKEVqr40000739f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6e09f28c22d@[207.111.241.192]>


At 10:09 PM +0000 3/21/01, Wayne Rad wrote:
>Sorry, everyone, I fucked up, This was supposed to be a
>private message.
>
>we return you now to your regularly scheduled [de]programming.
>----------
>>From: "Wayne Rad" <waynerad at hotmail.com>
>>Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>>To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
>>Subject: RE: Hints...
>>Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:57:48 -0000
>>
>>
>>YOU're on this list??
>>
>>wow, small world.
>>
>>I dunno if you remember I went to your oakland party in 1998,
>>(Blanc Weber's idea)  Are you still doing those parties? I'd
>>forgotten about them...
>>
>>--Wayne Radinsky aka waynerad
>>
>>----------
>>>From: "Sandy Sandfort" <sandfort at mindspring.com>
>>>Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>>>To: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>


Weird. Why are you on the Cypherpunks list, having never contributed 
an original thought, and expressing amazement that someone like Sandy 
is on the list?

Sometimes I think the Cypherpunks list would be the first place to 
start when the Master Cull begins.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From Monty2hotty at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 19:53:11 2001
From: Monty2hotty at aol.com (Monty2hotty at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 22:53:11 EST
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <18.a97598b.27ec22a7@aol.com>


how do i talk to fbi agents? i know everything. jfk, martin luther king, 
landing o nthe moon..... all of them. 




From declan at well.com  Thu Mar 22 22:34:21 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:34:21 -0500
Subject: Spam coding help request
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010323013155.00a39ec0@mail.well.com>


Assume the below bill becomes law. Would anyone care to write a program 
that violates this law and send it to me in the next 10 hours? I would be 
glad to give you full credit in my weekly column, which is why I'm writing 
this. Heck, maybe a procmail-formail combination would do it.

This might be the easiest to code for:
''(i) is designed or produced primarily for the purpose of concealing the 
source or routing information of bulk unsolicited electronic mail messages 
in a manner prohibited by subparagraph (D) of this paragraph;
-Declan


SEC. 2. PROTECTION FROM FRAUDULENT UNSOLICITED E-MAIL.
Section 1030 of title 18, United States Code, is amended—
(1) in subsection (a)(5)—
(A) by striking ''or'' at the end of subparagraph (B); and
(B) by inserting after subparagraph (C) the following:
''(D) intentionally and without authorization initiates the transmission of 
a bulk unsolicited electronic mail message to a protected computer with 
knowledge that such message falsifies an Internet domain, header 
information, date or time stamp, originating e-mail address, or other 
identifier; or
''(E) intentionally sells or distributes any computer program that—
''(i) is designed or produced primarily for the purpose of concealing the 
source or routing information of bulk unsolicited electronic mail messages 
in a manner prohibited by subparagraph (D) of this paragraph;
''(ii) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than 
to conceal such source or routing information; or
''(iii) is marketed by the violator or an- other person acting in concert 
with the violator and with the violator's knowledge for use in concealing 
the source or routing information of such messages'';




From lists at politechbot.com  Thu Mar 22 22:52:05 2001
From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:52:05 -0500
Subject: Spam coding help request
Message-ID: <20010323015205.A14752@cluebot.com>


rereading the bill, i realized that perhaps this (below) would do
it... --Declan


#!/usr/bin/perl

open (MAIL,"| /usr/lib/sendmail -t -oi");
print MAIL <<END;
To: fight-censorship\@vorlon.mit.edu
From: spammer\@spammer.com
Subject: MAKE MONEY FAST!

$1000 a Week, a FREE Car, and FREE Leads!!!

Rule #1 PUT YOUR FRIENDS ON HOLD... do not sell to people you know 
until you are making money... 
I will give you more FREE leads than you can CALL...
I am spending $10,000 weekly to help you build your team... 


END
close MAIL;
print "perlscript: done\n";




From lutz at iks-jena.de  Fri Mar 23 00:05:39 2001
From: lutz at iks-jena.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: 23 Mar 2001 08:05:39 GMT
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
References: <20010323055631.96638.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrn9bm0p4.ji.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>


* Morlock Elloi wrote:
>BO, trojans, http tunelling and similar are really not rocket science
>these days. 99% of sheeple machines are vulnerable. This is perfectly
>valid and real attack. Not on my machines and probably not on yours -
>that does not make any difference.

Exactly. Furthermore overclocked customer maschines make it just more likely
to attack a PGP key using failture analysis ("Bellcore attack" in German
smartcard hacking lingo). So urge the implementors to protect against
computing errors as well.

IMNSHO the PGP paradigma to expect locally written data to be unmodified on
later read was attacked. Phil can not be sued for this paradigma because he
developed for DOS. PHP Inc might be sueable because they extended the model
to other OS. I can be sued because I forget it as well while adapting the
source to PKI needs.

PGP2.6.3(i)n has the necessary fixes.




From xd2fabl at us.ibm.com  Fri Mar 23 06:14:14 2001
From: xd2fabl at us.ibm.com (Fred Blumenthal)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:14:14 -0600
Subject: apostrophes
Message-ID: <OFF5C9287D.2D1622DD-ON07256A18.004D9BC0@LocalDomain>


Note that on the subject line the word "apostrophes" is spelled without an
apostrophe.  If the subject were something belonging to an apostrophe, or
if it were a contraction of "apostrophe is," then it would be
"apostrophe's."  But the subject is the plural of "apostrophe."  This rule
may be applied to all uses of apostrophes.  "Fred's" would be "Fred is" or
something belonging to me; but more than one person named Fred is "Freds."
The same with decades: when numbers are used to indicate a decade - as in
"That 70s Crypto Show" - the use of an apostrophe is not called for,
because it's a plural, not a contraction or a possessive.  Of course, I
don't know how your role as self-described punks interfaces with that rule,
but a lot of people misuse apostrophes, and I'm afraid that if we misuse
them we'll lose them.

Fred Blumenthal
Sales Productivity Center - St. Louis, MO
Text/Graphics
xd2fabl at us.ibm.com
314/469-4344 or T/L 666-4344
**INCREASE YOUR FACE-TIME!  CALL THE SALES PRODUCTIVITY CENTER AT
1-877-707-2727!**




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Mar 23 08:23:41 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:23:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: eye - Opening the border for FTAA - 03.15.01
In-Reply-To: <3ABB67FE.72B7DA6D@dev.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103230815550.16303-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>http://www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_03.15.01/news/ftaa.html

This is misguided.  You can't involve the general public when you 
are going to be doing something illegal.  The guy announces, "we 
will have secured the bridge...." to the general public and every 
and every LEO in nine states dispatches officer friendly to make 
sure it doesn't happen.  

So you have a problem.  You can open the border *IF* you don't blab 
about it so the public can cross, or you can announce it to the 
general public and watch a zillion lions converge to make sure it 
doesn't happen.  

It looks to me like this is a straight-up publicity play; the guy 
has no intent to open the border (or at least knows he won't be 
allowed to), but wants the publicity that will be generated by 
a bunch of would-be border crossers running into a bunch of lions.

Besides, the US/Canadian border is pretty permeable anyway; it's 
very long, unguarded, and has a long history of being crossed by 
unarmed individuals who didn't bring any special tools...  such 
as the draft dodgers who (unlike Quayle) couldn't afford national 
guard posts.

				Bear




From BF at farc.org  Fri Mar 23 08:59:50 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:59:50 -0800
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <3ABB8105.E2B26309@farc.org>


At 01:05 PM 3/23/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>Monty2hotty at aol.com wrote:
>>
>> how do i talk to fbi agents? i know everything. jfk, martin luther
king,
>> landing o nthe moon..... all of them.
>
>I'm sure there are millions of ways to talk to FBI agents.
>
>Walk up, look them in the eye, smile pleasantly but not too
>affectionately, hold out your hand & say "hello".

1. Visit your local Russian embassy
2. Start sending encrypted email to russian ips, or better, posting
original scans and audio recordings to innocuous sites.
3. Start jogging past your local military base











From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Mar 23 07:13:02 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:13:02 -0600
Subject: eye - Opening the border for FTAA - 03.15.01
Message-ID: <3ABB67FE.72B7DA6D@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_03.15.01/news/ftaa.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From wonka667 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 06:34:27 2001
From: wonka667 at yahoo.com (Mgt.tw)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:34:27 -0500
Subject: Business Opportunities
Message-ID: <200103231516.JAA15671@einstein.ssz.com>


If this message cuts off, go to : 
www.geocities.com/wonka667/instructions.html

Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 
AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for 
an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you 
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devoted 
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Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws 
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IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 
This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I 
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=================================================== 
Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long 
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======$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and 
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YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose 
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=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. 
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer 
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Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from 
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case something happen to your computer. 
IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next 
to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what 
is 
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on 
majority 
of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see 
how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been 
tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put 
their 
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. 
But 
it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and 
then 
nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is 
instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. 
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 
1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and 
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person 
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2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE 
SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 
========================================================== 
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it 
on your 
computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 
Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist 
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There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 
METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
========================================================== 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's 
also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response 
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(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
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# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 
Your total income in this example is:  $50 +  $500 +  $5,000 +  $50,000 + 
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NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT 
THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU 
CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 
========================================================= 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE 
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even 
one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are 
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, 
many people will do just that, and more!METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON 
THE INTERNET 
======================================================= 
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds 
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 
and dd METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you 
must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide 
same day service on all orders. 
This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and 
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they 
receivethe report. 
=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== 
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: 
Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 
sheets 
of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME 
of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name 
and postal address. 
PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==================================================== 
REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" 
Order Report #1 from:Tracy Weeks28 Sunshinr RoadUpper Darby, Pa 
19082___________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net" 
Order Report # 2 from: 

Tom Cameron402 Raymond Rd.Waunakee, WI  
53597USA________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net" 
Order Report # 3 from : 

Jacque Hart17515 Iceland Ct.Lakeville, MN  
55044____________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" 
Order Report # 4 from: 

C. J. KalataP.O. Box 130157Roseville, MN  
55113-0002USA___________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free" 
Order Report # 5 from: 

R. B.Box 21115Grande PrairieAlberta, T8V-6W7Canada 
____________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 
=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 
=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you 
should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, 
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 
=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU 
CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the 
cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: 
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front 
of a Different report. 
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE 
INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START 
THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. 
There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! 
====================================================== 
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS 
PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you 
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST 
A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next 
few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program 
EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put 
your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 
as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 
100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. 
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers 
you will reach. 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW 
!============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ 
"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. 
When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk 
mail''. I made fun of the whole thing,spouting my knowledge of the 
population 
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored 
my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I 
made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' 
on 
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks 
she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received 
total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody 
in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
====================================================== 
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided 
that 
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was 
surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with 
orders. I made $319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about 
this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't 
a 
better investment with a faster return and so big." 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
======================================================= 
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered 
if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to 
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the 
money came within 22 weeks." 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
======================================================= 
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with 
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and 
within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made 
$20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was 
$362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.". 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
======================================================= 
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 
'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! 
======================================================= 
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the 
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade 
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 
 




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Mar 23 08:04:47 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:04:47 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Hacking Biology
Message-ID: <3ABB741F.215BBFE7@dev.tivoli.com>



Another 'Garage Genengineering' tool?

http://slashdot.org/science/01/03/23/1533204.shtml

-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Mar 23 08:05:58 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:05:58 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | New Fiber Development
Message-ID: <3ABB7466.4A730B6E@dev.tivoli.com>



Optical computing will likely benefit as well...

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/23/1346253.shtml

-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From zippity at doo.dah  Fri Mar 23 10:42:20 2001
From: zippity at doo.dah (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:42:20 -0800
Subject: Network Vigilante Gets Panties in Wad
Message-ID: <20010323184220.AAA18152+3970112@timber20.timberland.lib.wa.us>


http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/current/msg00002.html
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/current/msg00012.html
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/current/msg00013.html
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/current/msg00014.html

Forwarded message:

> From: Mike Echols
> To: Joe Cypherpunk
> Subject: You are now being "advertised" on our main web page...
> Date: 23 Mar 2001 07:56:41:
>
> Greetings, turd!
>
> Even though you failed in your miserably poor attempt to join
> Better A Millstone as a spy, I felt it wise to advise folks of your
> actions and your sympathies and therefore I have not only put an
> explanation on our main web page but, too, have sent emails to all
> of our members and our hundreds of supports.
>
> Further, I have emailed the scores of law enforcement agencies with
> whom we work to advise them of your actions and presence and
> suggesting that the illegal attack on our former server could have
> been your work and asking them to check out you, your domain, and
> your IP host servers.
>
> Mike Echols, Founder & Executive Director
> Better A Millstone, Inc.
>
> http://www.shadow-net.com/

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Mar 23 05:05:14 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:05:14 +0000
Subject: hello
References: <18.a97598b.27ec22a7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3ABB4A0A.8580B865@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Monty2hotty at aol.com wrote:
> 
> how do i talk to fbi agents? i know everything. jfk, martin luther king,
> landing o nthe moon..... all of them.

I'm sure there are millions of ways to talk to FBI agents.  

Walk up, look them in the eye, smile pleasantly but not too
affectionately, hold out your hand & say "hello". 

Choice of language shouldn't be a problem - English is probably best,
but Spanish works well & I'm sure they can handle a whole bunch of other
languages as well.  They even employ interpreters.

Of course getting to meet the agent in the first place might be harder.

You could look up their nearest office in the phone book, call them up
and say "I want to talk to an FBI agent". It might work.  Stranger
things have happened. 

If you were really keen you could drive round, walk in the door and ask
to see an agent. That way they couldn't just hang up the phone on you
when they found out you wanted to tell them that Elvis is living with
Indira Ghandi in an old B17 on the dark side of the moon. If they bodily
threw you out you could sue them.

In my limited understanding of the US system (I am neither a lawyer, nor
resident on your continent) I think you can get to meet FBI agents if
you are arrested for a federal crime.  The more serious the crime, the
longer the meeting. If you did something really nasty, such as saying,
for purposes of illustration of a political point, that certain
government officials needed to be killed, and making barely credible
suggestions as to how that might be brought about, then you could end up
talking to a great many FBI agents,  for many years, at the taxpayer's
expense.

If that's a bit extreme for you, you could always just hang around in a
bar near their office, maybe play some pool, talk about football, get
chatting over a few beers. It works with everybody else, I don't see why
the FBI should be any different. Except for the Mormons of course.  

Hey, that's another idea, you could become a Mormon, go to Utah, find
out which temple (do they call them temples?) the local FBI types go to
and meet them there.  Maybe you could even marry one of them - I'm told
that Mormons go in for that sort of thing & I'm sure there are some fine
young agents of the appropriate gender for you. Then you could talk to
an agent every day in the privacy of your mutual home.

Then you could write a book about it called something like "talking to
FBI agents for fun and profit". Who knows, it might sell. After all
"Round Ireland with a Fridge" sold well & that is an even sillier idea.

Or of course you could send dumb questions to mailing lists about
something else entirely. Well, not completely dumb of course because
there are FBI agents who read this list, so in a sense you are *already*
talking to an FBI agent just by posting here. Isn't that cool?


Ken




From Bill_Davidson_2000 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 23 10:10:52 2001
From: Bill_Davidson_2000 at hotmail.com (Bill Davidson)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:10:52 -0500
Subject: FREE INTERNET (no banners, contracts, minimums...)
Message-ID: <01Mar23.172104est.124661@bastion.cmontmorency.qc.ca>


**********************************************************
You are not on our mailing list. If you are not interested, simply delete 
this message. WE WILL NOT EMAIL YOU AGAIN.
Thank you for your time.
**********************************************************




That's right, FREE INTERNET no banners, catches, gimmicks, contracts or 
anything 'funny'.  This new company currently has 300 000 members and is 
expected to have 10 million within 6 months.  This is for real.  


To get more information, send a blank Email to:


get_in_1st-subscribe at yahoogroups.com




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From webmaster at economist.com  Fri Mar 23 11:52:17 2001
From: webmaster at economist.com (webmaster at economist.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 14:52:17 -0500
Subject: Economist.com account information
Message-ID: <200103231952.OAA10385@adserverdb.economist.com>



Your request for a temporary password to access your Economist.com account has been processed.
http://economist.com

Account information:
E-mail address: cypherpunks at algebra.com
Password: 90762Na

To update your account information or change your password go to:
http://economist.com/members/myaccount.cfm




From sethf at sethf.com  Fri Mar 23 14:24:33 2001
From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 17:24:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Censorware ("Filtering"): It's not just for kids anymore
Message-ID: <mailman.384.1576007505.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

	I've seen much CIPA discussion which assumes that it's only for kids.
The full text of the "Children's Internet Protection Act" can be found at
http://www.cybertelecom.org/cda/cipatext.htm  . It's worth reading.

	The name is Orwellian. It misleads people into thinking that
the law only concerns children (defined in the law to be "minors",
those less than 17 years old). In fact, that idea is quite false.
Every section of the law which has a requirement for "minors" is
followed by another requirement which is general or specifically
to adults.

	In particular, censorware is mandated to apply to adults in libraries:

     ``(C) CERTIFICATION WITH RESPECT TO ADULTS.--A certification under this
     paragraph is a certification that the library--
     ``(i) is enforcing a policy of Internet safety that includes the
     operation of a technology protection measure with respect to any of
     its computers with Internet access that protects against access
     through such computers to visual depictions that are-

     ``(I) obscene; or
     ``(II) child pornography; and

     ``(ii) is enforcing the operation of such technology protection
     measure during any use of such computers.

	Now, a reader might object, there is nothing wrong with
banning such material. It's not protected by the First Amendment.
However, the key point to understand is that the law does not say the
banning *must* be restricted to that material. Rather, it very
specifically disclaims elsewhere that it does not prohibit the
blacklisting of "any content other than content covered by this title".

	The effect of this is to have government law behind
censorware-makers, giving wide range to private, unaccountable,
secret, blacklisting. Consider SmartFilter's category description:

http://www.securecomputing.com/index.cfm?skey=86#ex

    Extreme/Obscence/Violence (ex)

    The extreme category includes URLs that may fall into other
    categories, but push the limits of acceptability. These URLs are
    typically extremely violent, gory, or horrific in nature and may be
    related to sex, bodily functions, obscenity, or perverse activities.
                                      ^^^^^^^^^

	By having a category they claim contains "obscenity", but also
has a vague, elastic definition ("push the limits of acceptability"),
they have free reign here. In my SmartFilter report "I've Got A Little List"
http://sethf.com/anticensorware/smartfilter/gotalist.php  I called this
"Mother rapers, father stabbers, littering, and creating a nuisance"

	Note also that obscenity must be determined by a court, and
varies from place to place (sometimes dramatically, from e.g.
San Fransciso to Memphis). It is difficult topic in law, and people
argue about it all the time. Turning over that judicial decision to
a private blacklister, who may then make it according to their own
agenda (or by a computer program), should offend every principle of
free speech and the First Amendment.

	But merely invoke the cry of "protect the children" (here,
quite literally), and immediately all of the above is swept away
in the reaction which flows from that rhetoric.

__
Seth Finkelstein  Consulting Programmer  sethf at sethf.com  http://sethf.com
Anticensorware Investigations: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/
EFF Pioneer: http://www.eff.org/awards/20010305_pioneer_press_release.html

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
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**************************************************************************




From freematt at coil.com  Fri Mar 23 14:53:11 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 17:53:11 -0500
Subject: Censorware ("Filtering"): It's not just for kids anymore
Message-ID: <v04220804b6e18442c14e@[198.4.94.249]>


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  I asked an expert on censorware for a 
clarification-  And here it is]


From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Fri Mar 23 18:56:01 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:56:01 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision in
 Online  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFEEMEDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
References: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFEEMEDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04320403b6e1bc12b799@[65.5.86.210]>


At 00:09 -0800  on  3/22/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>Jim wrote:
>
>>  It comes from 'precede' to 'come first or
>>  before' as in importance or scope of coverage
>>  (with respect to court authority).
>>
>>  The Constitution is clearly superior in
>>  authority over any and all courts in America.
>>  Therefore any ruling they may emit must
>>  comply with the Constitution. Quibling over
>>  whether that fits the strictest legal
>>  definition of 'precedence' is nothing more
>>  than a strawman.
>
>No quibbling, just explaining what the common law is.  Anyone who wants to
>believe that the Constitution is precedent court ruling recognized under the
>common law, is welcome to do so.  Trouble is, it just ain't so.  You can
>woulda-coulda-shoulda all day long, but that won't change the facts.  You
>can spend three years in law school and learn something, read a book or two
>about the origins Anglo-American jurisprudence or live in darkness.  The
>choice is yours.

I disagree.  If some judge were to make a ruling that went against 
the constitution, even if the case law in question was entirely 
within common law, his ruling would be unconstitutional and thus null 
an void (after it was filtered through the appellant process and 
invalidated of course...).  However, in practice I can think of no 
situation where this could occur- civil law (the primary area where 
common law rules) simply does not involve anything the constitution 
says anything about.
-- 
____________________________________________________________________
volatile:  Because all programs deserve SOME interrupt code...
____________________________________________________________________
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
<mailto:kelliott at mac.com>                             ICQ#23758827 




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Fri Mar 23 18:58:48 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:58:48 -0800
Subject: 8 year old arrested for paper gun, words
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010322185103.00a1d890@idiom.com>
References: <3ABA9206.BE5758ED@farc.org>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010322185103.00a1d890@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <p04320404b6e1bdb11916@[65.5.86.210]>


At 18:53 -0800  on  3/22/01, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Yes, but either the kids didn't say things like
>"I'm going to kill you all" to the class,
>or else they watched the TV News enough to know whether
>it's a bad day to say that sort of thing (....)
>
>Or at least they only said it on the playground when they were playing
>Native Americans and Invading European Cattle-Enslavers.

I prefer the term Marauding Plague bearers from the East
-- 
____________________________________________________________________
volatile:  Because all programs deserve SOME interrupt code...
____________________________________________________________________
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
<mailto:kelliott at mac.com>                             ICQ#23758827 




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Fri Mar 23 19:09:02 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:09:02 -0800
Subject: Did you notice...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321231451.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321231451.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <p04320405b6e1bfc79677@[65.5.86.210]>


At 23:16 -0600  on  3/21/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>That the one place 'common law' is mentioned in the Constitution it is in
>direct conflict with contemporanious English common law?

That sounds to me like they we're basicly satisfied with the rest of 
english common law...

>                                 Amendment VII
>
>In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty
>dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by
>a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States,
>than according to the rules of the common law.

This brought to mind another interesting question.  When examining 
this amendment is the $20 in 1700's coinage or in current dollars? 
How much would that $20 be worth today anyway?
-- 
____________________________________________________________________
volatile:  Because all programs deserve SOME interrupt code...
____________________________________________________________________
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
<mailto:kelliott at mac.com>                             ICQ#23758827 




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 23 19:17:38 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:17:38 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision inOnline  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b6e1bc12b799@[65.5.86.210]>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFCEPMDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Kevin,

You wrote:

> I disagree.  If some judge were to make a
> ruling that went against the constitution,
> even if the case law in question was
> entirely within common law, his ruling
> would be unconstitutional and thus null
> an void (after it was filtered through the
> appellant process and invalidated of
> course...).  However, in practice I can
> think of no situation where this could
> occur- civil law (the primary area where
> common law rules) simply does not involve
> anything the constitution says anything
> about.

The reason you cannot think of such a situation is because there is none.
The common law is derived from appellate rulings.  If a lower court goes
against the common law, it will be overruled when it reaches the appellate
level (assuming it is appealed; lots of cases aren't, but they have no
bearing on similar future cases; only appealed cases do).  If they conform
to the common law, they will be affirmed on appeal and that will stand since
the issue has already been adjudicated once before and upheld on appeal.

Also as you figured out, there is little or no overlap between the common
law and constitutional admonitions against government action.  If you can
come up with a concrete example, we can discuss it.


 S a n d y




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Fri Mar 23 19:21:30 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:21:30 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision
 inOnline  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFCEPMDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
References: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFCEPMDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04320406b6e1c2ab4480@[65.5.86.210]>


At 19:17 -0800  on  3/23/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>Kevin,
>
>You wrote:
>
>>  I disagree.  If some judge were to make a
>>  ruling that went against the constitution,
>>  even if the case law in question was
>>  entirely within common law, his ruling
>>  would be unconstitutional and thus null
>>  an void (after it was filtered through the
>>  appellant process and invalidated of
>>  course...).  However, in practice I can
>>  think of no situation where this could
>>  occur- civil law (the primary area where
>>  common law rules) simply does not involve
>>  anything the constitution says anything
>>  about.
>
>The reason you cannot think of such a situation is because there is none.
>The common law is derived from appellate rulings.  If a lower court goes
>against the common law, it will be overruled when it reaches the appellate
>level (assuming it is appealed; lots of cases aren't, but they have no
>bearing on similar future cases; only appealed cases do).  If they conform
>to the common law, they will be affirmed on appeal and that will stand since
>the issue has already been adjudicated once before and upheld on appeal.

That's not really what I'm trying to say.  The question is, is it 
possible for a ruling to be valid under common law and invalid under 
the constitution.  I think the answer is no and the reason (as you 
may have been trying to say) is that the constitution is a part of 
common law, and all decisions since it's creation have, by 
definition, been either constitutional or overruled on appeal.
-- 
____________________________________________________________________
volatile:  Because all programs deserve SOME interrupt code...
____________________________________________________________________
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
<mailto:kelliott at mac.com>                             ICQ#23758827 




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 23 19:41:48 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:41:48 -0800
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's DecisioninOnline  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <p04320406b6e1c2ab4480@[65.5.86.210]>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFGEPNDCAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Kevin,

You wrote:

> That's not really what I'm trying to say.
> The question is, is it possible for a ruling
> to be valid under common law and invalid
> under the constitution.

I'm not sure your question is meaningful.  It's sort of like, "can God make
a rock so heavy he can't lift it?"

> I think the answer is no and the reason
> (as you may have been trying to say) is
> that the constitution is a part of
> common law, and all decisions since it's
> creation have, by definition, been either
> constitutional or overruled on appeal.

Well, contrary to the Subject, Choate's, assertions, the common law PRECEDED
the Constitution and was implicitly incorporated therein (as shown by the
Subject, Choate's, own recitation of the appropriate Constitutional
clauses).  So, in a sense, I guess you would be right in saying that the
Constitution is a part of the common law.


 S a n d y




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Mar 23 20:38:02 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:38:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
In-Reply-To: <20010323055631.96638.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103232015580.5270-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




>BO, trojans, http tunelling and similar are really not rocket science
>these days. 99% of sheeple machines are vulnerable. This is perfectly
>valid and real attack. Not on my machines and probably not on yours -
>that does not make any difference.
>
>This is just another data point supporting secure devices insulated
>from microshit OS, java and wintels in general. Running PGP in the
>environment where attachment execution and/or java and/or activex are
>tolerated does not make any sense.

I want a laptop where someone could take out the disk platters, 
scan them with a STM, do every "reconstruction" trick known to 
humankind, and still not be able to tell basic things like how 
much of the drive is in use or what operating system is installed.
 
To use it, you would have to enter the correct passphrase on 
bootup (256 characters would be about the shortest maximum 
passphrase length that would be worthwhile) for the BIOS to 
make into a key to encrypt the drive writes and decrypt the 
drive reads.  

The drive encryption would have to be handled purely in 
hardware on the HD controller, specifically so that there 
is NO WAY for software running on the box to get around it. 
Every write and Every read.  

And finally, it would have to have some kind of tamperproof 
keyboard -- noplace to install hardware key loggers.

I think that's about the bare minimum for a theft-secure 
machine. (A machine which can be stolen without you having 
to worry about someone else getting the data on it). 

Network security, if you hook it up to a network, is a separate 
and more complex problem, but I think that it *is* possible to 
make a theft-secure machine.

			Bear




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Mar 23 21:16:45 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:16:45 -0800
Subject: Did you notice...
In-Reply-To: <p04320405b6e1bfc79677@[65.5.86.210]>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321231451.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
  <p04320405b6e1bfc79677@[65.5.86.210]>
Message-ID: <a05010402b6e1dcc2610c@[207.111.241.127]>


At 7:09 PM -0800 3/23/01, Kevin Elliott wrote:
>At 23:16 -0600  on  3/21/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>>That the one place 'common law' is mentioned in the Constitution it is in
>>direct conflict with contemporanious English common law?
>
>That sounds to me like they we're basicly satisfied with the rest of 
>english common law...
>
>>                                 Amendment VII
>>
>>In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty
>>dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by
>>a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States,
>>than according to the rules of the common law.
>
>This brought to mind another interesting question.  When examining 
>this amendment is the $20 in 1700's coinage or in current dollars? 
>How much would that $20 be worth today anyway?

First, there is never any kind of mention of "or in the currency of 
1856 or 1917 or 1987 or 2089 of whenever the law is applied." Trust 
me.

Second, the dollar is defined at one point in the Constitution as one 
twentieth of an ounce of gold. (A one troy ounce gold piece was thus 
a $20 gold piece, or a double eagle, until the dollar was devalued by 
the communists in the 1930s. The dollar was unlinked to gold 
completely by the later communists.)

What all this means in terms of VII is probably meaningless. Arguing 
that taxes can only be collected on "real dollars," expressible as 
redeemable gold, is a favorite exercise of certain kinds of tax 
protestors. While we can be sympathetic to their claims that the 
commies are stealing to distribute to the deadbeats and drifters and 
welfare hoes, using this kind of argument will never result in any 
kind of victory.


--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Fri Mar 23 21:33:38 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 23:33:38 -0600
Subject: John Doe vs. John Doe: Virginia Court's Decision inOnline  
  John  Doe' Case Hailed by Free-Speech Advocates
In-Reply-To: <p04320406b6e1c2ab4480@[65.5.86.210]>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEKGCHAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Kevin, I think, said:

	 However, in practice I can
> >>  think of no situation where this could
> >>  occur- civil law (the primary area where
> >>  common law rules) simply does not involve
> >>  anything the constitution says anything
> >>  about.

Civil law and common law are distinct and oppositional terms. At least they
were once. I don't think you could find a "pure" legal tradition in
developed nations, at least not under my understanding of these polluted
concepts. (Note: I refer to to civil law the same way as Kevin did in
everyday conversation, as do most lawyers.)

But more correctly...

Civil law: Corpus Iurus Civilis 535 CE Justinian (Roman Law - very few
sovereigns, Scotland, I think...); history, statutory interpretation; stone
tablets - 10 Commandments (broad principles anticipate all situations);
rigidity.

Common law: 11th Century England; fact patterns; stare decisis; flexibility;
change-with-the-times; go-with-the-flow.

Jim seems to see/k a pure civil law tradition in the US. If we were in a
*totally pure* civil tradition, his questions would be on the mark. However,
we have a common law legal tradition - even in regard to constitutional
interpretation. Choate advocates a pure civilist legal tradition with THE
CONSTITUTION as the fount. Maybe so does Scalia, but just in regard to the
US Const:
http://aaup.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/99/princeton/5937.ctl

For Choate to even sense the question(s), to get so near it/them...
demonstrates some sort of constitutional idiot sapiency, nevermind his
digital personality disorders. (That's a compliment, Choate.) And, Choate is
(in layman's terms) to some extent correct in regard to revolutionary
"reset" buttons, or divorce lawyers across the country would be citing The
Code of Hammurabi:

	132. If the "finger is pointed" at a man's wife about another man, but she
is not caught 	sleeping with the other man, she shall jump into the river
for her husband.

	(Hammurabi is ancient family law code... he had the answer to that
paternity thread.)

~Aimee




From goer at themail.com  Fri Mar 23 22:40:00 2001
From: goer at themail.com (goer at themail.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:40:00 -0500
Subject: �� ������ ��������� � ���������
Message-ID: <200103240138403.SM00125@there>

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From dogs at recruitdogs.com  Fri Mar 23 12:19:44 2001
From: dogs at recruitdogs.com (dogs at recruitdogs.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 05:19:44 +0900
Subject: Make Every Hire Count With RecruitDogs
Message-ID: <200103232019.FAA20741@bgsv5090.>



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From registration at ifilm.com  Sat Mar 24 08:27:17 2001
From: registration at ifilm.com (registration at ifilm.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:27:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Your IFILM registration is confirmed!
Message-ID: <200103241627.IAA33782@ns1.ifilm.com>


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From tcmay at got.net  Sat Mar 24 11:15:27 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:15:27 -0800
Subject: Rep. Bob Goodlatte wants to make this email   message illegal
In-Reply-To: <20010324125419.A29111@cluebot.com>
References: <20010324125419.A29111@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b6e29e68e040@[207.111.241.127]>


At 12:54 PM -0500 3/24/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42599,00.html
>   
>    Use a Spam, Go to Prison
>    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
>    2:00 a.m. Mar. 24, 2001 PST

....

>
>   
>    Goodlatte's Anti-Spamming Act of 2001 allows the Secret Service to
>    police software that "is designed or produced primarily for the
>    purpose of concealing the source or routing information of bulk
>    unsolicited electronic mail messages."


Some nice implications for remailers, eh?

Lawyers may argue what "designed or produced primarily" means, and 
may argue that remailers have non-spam uses, and they may even cite 
numbers of political messages vs. numbers of commercial and spam 
messages, but this will be an expensive battle which most remailer 
operators in the U.S. will not choose to fight. Also, some Reichstag 
Fire provocateurs may start using remailers to spam with just as they 
have, in all likelihood, been doing with their "How to Make Bombz" 
and "Lolitas Being Snuffed" messages.

Ah, at least Canada is a place where there are no such laws, so ZKS is safe....

Whoops, scratch that last point.

>
>    A second section of his anti-spam measure says it's illegal to
>    distribute software that "has only limited commercially significant
>    purpose or use other than to conceal such source or routing
>    information."
>
>    That could cover utilities like the Perl script below.


And this clause even more attacks the remailers and their authors.

As we have been saying for many years: commercial speech _is_ just 
speech. America went down the wrong fork in the road when it decided 
that some types of speech, like promoting the smoking of a brand of 
cigarettes, was not as protected as other types of speech.

(Lest anyone think the restrictions apply only to FCC-regulated 
things like television and radio, billboards and magazine ads are 
affected as well. Even if not banned outright, advertisers are forced 
to provide warnings, precisely analogous to the recent proposals that 
certain Web pages would have to contain links to "opposing points of 
view" or even to some "public.net" place where politically correct 
truth would be maintained at public expense.)

More than just "commercial speech _is_ just speech," so is the 
spending of money. The phrase "to utter a check" is one such pithy 
expression of this (possibly coined by Eric Hughes, possibly in usage 
before his usage). This point is most directly relevant to 
Cypherpunks in the context of attempts to ban untraceable spending, 
but is also of direct relevance in the current "campaign financing" 
yipyap. Whom I spend my money on is my political speech.

A remailer is just another speaker. (And lest anyone doubt this, 
recall my semi-serious point that remailers call themselves 
"re-commenters" and include a line like "Does anyone have any 
comments on what this article included below is talking about?" Any 
attempt to ban speech not traceable to a person must deal with the 
issue of how it then bans speech which includes such speech. A 
quibble, but such is the way censorship spreads.)

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From anti_kravietz at ceti.pl  Sat Mar 24 02:43:48 2001
From: anti_kravietz at ceti.pl (Pawel Krawczyk)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:43:48 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Censorware ("Filtering"): It's not just for kids anymore
In-Reply-To: <v04220804b6e18442c14e@[198.4.94.249]>
Message-ID: <20010324104348.54FD9F38C0@tau.ceti.com.pl>


In article <v04220804b6e18442c14e@[198.4.94.249]> you wrote:

>        I've seen much CIPA discussion which assumes that it's only for kids.
> The full text of the "Children's Internet Protection Act" can be found at
> http://www.cybertelecom.org/cda/cipatext.htm  . It's worth reading.
>        The name is Orwellian. 

The name is also a very rude word for vagina in Polish, and probably
also other Slavic languages. I'm sure that no Polish politician will
refer to American CIPA when proposing such a similiar act in our
Parliament ;)

-- 
Paweł Krawczyk *** home: <http://ceti.pl/~kravietz/>
security: <http://ipsec.pl/>  *** fidonet: 2:486/23




From declan at well.com  Sat Mar 24 09:54:19 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:54:19 -0500
Subject: [declan@well.com: Rep. Bob Goodlatte wants to make this email message illegal]
Message-ID: <20010324125419.A29111@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42599,00.html
   
   Use a Spam, Go to Prison
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   2:00 a.m. Mar. 24, 2001 PST
   
   WASHINGTON -- Rep. Bob Goodlatte does not want you to read this
   article.
   
   The conservative Virginia Republican, who is co-chairman of the
   Congressional Internet Caucus, hopes to punish the publication or
   redistribution of columns such as this with a $15,000 fine and up to
   one year in federal prison.
   
   Why? Because I've included a short Perl program that could be used to
   spam -- and it seems certain to be banned under a bill that Goodlatte
   has recently introduced.
   
   Goodlatte's Anti-Spamming Act of 2001 allows the Secret Service to
   police software that "is designed or produced primarily for the
   purpose of concealing the source or routing information of bulk
   unsolicited electronic mail messages."
   
   It's part of a knee-jerk reaction against unsolicited e-mail on
   Capitol Hill, and it follows in the footsteps of the Digital
   Millennium Copyright Act, which movie studios have used in an
   unsuccessful bid to rid the Net of a DVD-descrambling program.
   
   Goodlatte -- who is chairman of the House Republican High Technology
   Working Group -- has spent years lobbying to make it easier to export
   encryption products, but also was a vocal supporter of the DMCA and
   the Communications Decency Act.
   
   This time around, instead of making it a crime to spam, Goodlatte has
   decided to amend existing law to ban spamware, but since the bill is
   worded so broadly, it might imperil other programmers instead. That's
   not a surprise: Software is flexible stuff, and it's tricky to ban
   some applications without going too far. Other potential problems
   include that Goodlatte's bill can't remove spamware hosted overseas
   and could run afoul of the First Amendment.
   
   A second section of his anti-spam measure says it's illegal to
   distribute software that "has only limited commercially significant
   purpose or use other than to conceal such source or routing
   information."
   
   That could cover utilities like the Perl script below. It's been
   slightly altered, but it was originally written as a legitimate
   autoresponder CGI script that worked by forging the From: line of an
   e-mail message:
   
	#!/usr/bin/perl
	open (MAIL,"| /usr/lib/sendmail -t -oi");
	print MAIL <<END;
	To: newsfeedback\@wired.com
	From: spammer\@spammer.com
	Subject: MAKE MONEY FAST!

	$1000 a Week, a FREE Car, and FREE Leads!!!
	Rule #1 PUT YOUR FRIENDS ON HOLD... do not sell to people you know
	until you are making money...
	I will give you more FREE leads than you can CALL...
	END
	close MAIL;

----- End forwarded message -----




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Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:27:29 +1000
Subject: Congratulations! You've Won!
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From declan at well.com  Sat Mar 24 12:45:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 15:45:39 -0500
Subject: The Register - Zimmerman and the PGP flaw
In-Reply-To: <3ABACC4E.F7077E3@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Thu, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:08:46PM -0600
References: <3ABACC4E.F7077E3@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010324154539.A30830@cluebot.com>


Sheesh. If you're going to post one-liners, at least have the courtesy
to spell the guy's name correctly.

-Declan


On Thu, Mar 22, 2001 at 10:08:46PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17808.html
> -- 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>          If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
>          not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From declan at well.com  Sat Mar 24 12:48:15 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 15:48:15 -0500
Subject: 8 year old arrested for paper gun, words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103221733500.23199-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Thu, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:37:28PM -0800
References: <3ABA9206.BE5758ED@farc.org> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103221733500.23199-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010324154815.B30830@cluebot.com>


Not to mention rifle teams. I was on the one for my high school, and that
was suburbia, not rural.

-Declan

On Thu, Mar 22, 2001 at 05:37:28PM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Blank Frank wrote:
> 
> >
> >               Irvington Pupils Face
> >               Charges for Playing With
> >               Paper Gun.
> 
> How times turn.  In most schools, there's a trophy case. 
> And dated not so long ago, in many of them, there are 
> marksmanship trophies...  We had a varsity marksmanship 
> squad, but I guess that was longer ago and further away 
> than most folks are allowed to think now. 
> 
> Huzzah for the demise of school sports competitions...  
> 
> 				Bear
> 




From any at promo.com  Sat Mar 24 14:14:04 2001
From: any at promo.com (Glenn)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 17:14:04 -0500
Subject: I've DELETED 100 of these, or more....
Message-ID: <200103250617.f2P6Hae12023@mail.jctally.com.tw>

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From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Mar 24 15:50:32 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 18:50:32 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell Royally
Message-ID: <200103250002.TAA00999@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


The feds, after refusing for months to allow Jim Bell's host of 
motions to be filed, are now allowing them in a rush, well short 
of the required minimum of a month to allow trial preparation. 
The motions are available on the Court's web site, in TIF format, 
and we'll have them up in HTML/TXT this weekend.

The motions show that since mid-December Jim has repeatedly 
asked for adequate legal representation and been repeatedly 
refused. In fact, almost all his motions have been denied by 
Judge Jack.

In particular, the feds aim to prevent Jim or anybody putting
discovery materials on the Internet, a goal that must be countered
by all means and methods if the stuff can be liberated.

Even so, Jim's motions offer vivid descriptions of what has been
happening to Jim, not only since his arrest, but well before,
even before his first trial, as well as events within prison and
after release.

If true, and the current federal abuse helps make his story
plausible, the feds have been long pursuing Jim and his
cohorts, using a variety of illegal methods -- for surveillance, 
investigation, searches, arrests, evidence tampering, abuse 
of the federal rules of procedure, treatment of prisoners, 
denial of legal rights, and more.

I've been asked by Jim's current PD to appear as a witness 
on his behalf and welcome the opportunity to do so if I can 
get assurance that Jim will get legal representation much
superior to what he has gotten so far. How that will mesh with 
the feds subponea of me as their witness remains to be seen.

The feds are being super shitty in this case, moreso than
in Bell 1 and with CJ. I think that is because they have been
up to greater evil than ever and intend to enhance that
method to intimidate dissidents and those interested in
such cases.

It's clear that Jim Bell is a pretext for this campaign of aggression
against dissidence, a poster boy for what is to come in the way 
of federal law-massaging injustice.

Jeff Gordon wrote me to say that to get my grand jury testimony
I will need to make a motion to the magistrate in charge of the
grand jury -- just in time to leave no time to make that motion and
get a response before the trial. Why Robb didn't tell me that in 
January is now clear: the sonofabitch didn't want me to know I 
was being stalled by his unresponsiveness and that now surely 
his selective misuse of my GJ testimony.

Should be an educational experience at the trial to learn what
the feds got cooked up to dangle Jim as bait for other fishes.

What's up with Declan's fighting his subpoena? Is the press
rallying to one of their own? ACLU on the case? 60 Minutes
still around? Or is the Oregonian gonna spin the terrorism
all alone -- well, except for the federal government, christ with
all those jihadists coming into the country, providing Libyan
money to the locals as if IRA fighting the Royals.







From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Mar 24 19:57:19 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:57:19 -0800
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103232015580.5270-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <20010323055631.96638.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010324195719.007f1ad0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:38 PM 3/23/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>And finally, it would have to have some kind of tamperproof 
>keyboard -- noplace to install hardware key loggers.

What the world needs now 

is a membrane keyboard, used only for entering keys, 
which can be folded into a credit card and stored
in your wallet.  If not hung around your neck.

Or an iButton ring...

Or implant...




.......


 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Mar 24 20:22:29 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:22:29 -0800
Subject: Did you notice...
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6e1dcc2610c@[207.111.241.127]>
References: <p04320405b6e1bfc79677@[65.5.86.210]>
  <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010321231451.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
  <p04320405b6e1bfc79677@[65.5.86.210]>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010324202229.007f2ae0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:16 PM 3/23/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>a $20 gold piece, or a double eagle, until the dollar was devalued by 
>the communists in the 1930s. The dollar was unlinked to gold 
>completely by the later communists.)

My favorite part was when it was illegal to own gold for financial
(e.g., vs. electronic) purposes.  
.......




From bear at sonic.net  Sat Mar 24 21:58:37 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 21:58:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Slashdot | 3D Microfluid Computers Used To Solve NP Problems
In-Reply-To: <3ABD804F.90F2E793@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103242141020.6694-100000@bolt.sonic.net>






On Sat, 24 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/24/1840252.shtml


Cryptographically interesting.  It looks like starting now, 
the highest-end threat facing a cryptosystem involves liters 
of fluid performing molecular computation. 

The kick is that these molecular computers aren't all that hard 
to design and they scale.  Which means someone can have a 
1000-liter computer with somewhere near the same ease they 
can set up a milliliter computer. 

So we need to revise the recommended key lengths for security
purposes.  There are about 2^167 atoms in planet earth, 
about 2^30 nanoseconds per second, and 2^39 seconds till the 
next ice age.  So, if a tenth of that mass were made into 
ten-atom computing units that could complete a calculation 
every ten nanoseconds, I get about 2^226 operations before 
the next ice age.  Assuming each is a brute-force check, 
we should probably be looking at symmetric ciphers with 
keys a minimum of 225 bits long right about now. Round up 
to the nearest handy power of 2 and make it 256 bit keys. 

Fortunately, the AES, and several other recent symmetric 
ciphers, have a use for a 256 bit key. 

Unless they find some radical flaw in AES & Co, I don't see 
a real problem posed by molecular computing; we just need 
to start taking it into account when we decide what key 
length to use. 

				Bear






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Mar 24 21:21:19 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:21:19 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | 3D Microfluid Computers Used To Solve NP Problems
Message-ID: <3ABD804F.90F2E793@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/24/1840252.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Sat Mar 24 21:04:16 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 00:04:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: kinds of computation?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010324195719.007f1ad0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10103242348590.19488-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Sat, 24 Mar 2001, David Honig wrote:

> What the world needs now 
> 
> is a membrane keyboard, used only for entering keys, 
> which can be folded into a credit card and stored
> in your wallet.  If not hung around your neck.

This reminds me of something I've had in the back of my mind for a while
(thanks to the Oxygen project over at MIT).  
Is it useful to divide "available computation power" into these
categories:

		1) untrusted and "impersonal" 
		2) untrusted but personalized
		3) trusted and "impersonal"
		4) trusted and personal

Here "personalized" is a purposely vague notion which is supposed to
capture such things as, say, a Palm Pilot with your passphrases saved on
it. That would be a "trusted and personal" computation device. A "trusted
but impersonal" device might be something you have good reason to believe
works correctly, but doesn't have any special information about you. 

I'm not clear on whether it's useful to distinguish between 1) and 2).
Probably that depends on what is shoved into the word "personalized." 

The point of dividing computation into categories is that 4) is very rare,
often computationally weak, but a little goes a long way. At least, given
the right protocols. My brain is trusted and personal, but it can't do
much more than remember a password. My Palm Pilot and my brain together
can execute SRP or PAK or whatever - but my Palm Pilot doesn't need to
remember my password. (it can be "trusted but impersonal", contrary to the
example above). 

I'd be interested to hear where else this sort of categorisation has
popped up, or whether people think it's useful. 

thanks, 
-David 




From david_coulson at clix.pt  Sat Mar 24 18:12:26 2001
From: david_coulson at clix.pt (David Coulson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 03:12:26 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c0b4d1$0a4c21e0$e39c17c3@preinsu>

you and your choppers can fuck off
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From helpnet at mail.com  Sun Mar 25 04:07:19 2001
From: helpnet at mail.com (helpnet at mail.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 04:07:19
Subject: 1 It's your future, take charge today!!!
Message-ID: <355.552305.665696@mail.com>

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From plenty at lovemail.com  Sun Mar 25 05:03:59 2001
From: plenty at lovemail.com (plenty at lovemail.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 05:03:59
Subject: Win the Internet marketing game1..
Message-ID: <122.676589.498634@lovemail.com>

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From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sun Mar 25 09:28:09 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:28:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell Royally
Message-ID: <200103251729.JAA32215@user5.hushmail.com>

More than ever, it seems Jim's AP system is needed.

ks
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 09:46:28 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:46:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: kinds of computation?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10103242348590.19488-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <20010325174628.35937.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>


--- dmolnar <dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:

> 		1) untrusted and "impersonal" 
> 		2) untrusted but personalized
> 		3) trusted and "impersonal"
> 		4) trusted and personal

"Trusted" in "devices" generally assumes tamper-proofness (so that, once
certified, the trust is implied the next day, with some p close to 1.)

Brain is on the top of that list, ms windows at the bottom.

The top secrets reside in brain (passphrases), lower-grade secrets
(passphrase-protected) on electrical gadgets. The problem is the capacity
- both storage and computational - which drops as trustworthiness
increases.

I think that these tradeoffs are not well understood, too much is assumed.

On average, effective passphrase length is less than 60 bits. Yes, it's hard
to estimate what is the effective length of strings composed from personal
experience and published bits, but I have seen no data that would support
anything more than said 60 bits. So if 256-bit block cipher is at the end of
the security chain tha begins with 60-bit passphrase, why, OH WHY do we
bother ? I mean, even 56-bit single DES in ECB mode will stop all casual
harvesting.

We need to enhance storage capacity of the most trusted environments. This
ultimately leads to implants, with keychain items as an in-between step.




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From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 09:50:09 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:50:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Slashdot | 3D Microfluid Computers Used To Solve NP Problems
Message-ID: <20010325175009.76706.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>


>purposes.  There are about 2^167 atoms in planet earth, 
>about 2^30 nanoseconds per second, and 2^39 seconds till the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Most proofs of security have a problem, this one was just easy
to spot :-)


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From Jeff.Hodges at kingsmountain.com  Sun Mar 25 09:58:56 2001
From: Jeff.Hodges at kingsmountain.com (Jeff.Hodges at kingsmountain.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:58:56 -0800
Subject: fyi: PGP attack specs
Message-ID: <200103251758.JAA15544@breakaway.Stanford.EDU>


------- Forwarded Message


From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 11:22:22 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:22:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Slashdot | 3D Microfluid Computers Used To Solve NP Problems
Message-ID: <20010325192222.88100.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com>


>>about 2^30 nanoseconds per second, and 2^39 seconds till the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>Most proofs of security have a problem, this one was just easy
>to spot :-)

I was wrong. Morning stupidity.

I meant to underline 2^39.

There is absolutely no consensus that the next ice age will start
17K years from now.


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From bear at sonic.net  Sun Mar 25 11:49:51 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:49:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Slashdot | 3D Microfluid Computers Used To Solve NP Problems
In-Reply-To: <20010325175009.76706.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103251148070.18023-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Morlock Elloi wrote:

>>purposes.  There are about 2^167 atoms in planet earth, 
>>about 2^30 nanoseconds per second, and 2^39 seconds till the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>Most proofs of security have a problem, this one was just easy
>to spot :-)
>

Groan.  Right you are, that is serious doofus mode.  

However, it only throws the estimate off by ten bits, 
and I picked up almost thirty when I rounded it up 
to 256 bits.  

The point that currently-available key lengths are 
adequate to deal with the problem stands. 

				Bear




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Mar 25 09:55:20 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:55:20 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell Royally 2
In-Reply-To: <200103251729.JAA32215@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <200103251806.NAA11050@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


We offer the court docket of March 23, 2001 and a couple
of dozen recent filings, most of them by Jim Bell, with a couple
of the judge's orders:

   http://cryptome.org/jdb032301.htm

Here's a sample of the feds and Jim going at it:

Jack E. Tanner, US District Judge, ORDER, January 11, 2001:

  "THE COURT, being advised by the Government of 
  the defendant's (James Bell) stated intention of publishing 
  discovery materials in this case on the Internet, which 
  discovery materials include voluminous private information 
  and personal addresses of various individuals, HEREBY 
  ORDERS that no materials disclosed by the government 
  as part of its discovery obligation shall be shared by 
  defense counsel with the defendant until further notice 
  of the court." 

-----

Jim Bell, Defendant's Self-Filed Supplemental Response 
to  Government's Proposed Order Concerning Defendant's
Access to Discovery Material, March 16, 2001:

        "Comes now the Defendant, James Dalton Bell, who declares that
        he is effectively and unwillingly unrepresented, and that
        his 6th Amendment Right to Counsel has been repeatedly and
        intentionally violated since on or about December 1, 2000.
        Defendant Bell has repeatedly sent letters to the court asking
        for substitute counsel, and two separate motions by attorney
        Robert Leen have been essentially ignored since mid-
        December, 2000.

            2. The arrogance strongly implied in the government's
        proposed ORDER GOVERNING DEFENDANTS ACCESS TO DISCOVERY
        MATERIALS CONTAINING HOME ADDRESSES AND OTHER PERSONAL
        INFORMATION is truly astounding. (Hereafter I refer to this
        monstrosity as the Proposed Access Order, or PAD.)

            3. The government has said exactly nothing supporting,
        detailing, or explaining their desires. Which addresses
        are they trying to "protect"? How many? Whose? For what
        reason? For how long? Does the government believe that
        these addresses were somehow obtained "illegally" or that
        their mere possession is somehow illegal? Why has essentially
        all discovery material been denied Defendant Bell for 3+
        months due merely to a few "addresses"7

            4. The government hasn't even said, openly, where this
        material came from: Defendant Bell suspects that all of the
        material (at least that portion containing the "addresses"
        came from the November 6 search and thus, from the Defendant
        himself by the thinking of the government. Is the government
        entitled to bar the defendant from doing (legal) things
        with this information? Permanently?

            5. Is the government suggesting that this material
        or any of it is somehow "illegal information"? Or would the

        government like it to be considered illegal information?
        That would certainly explain some of the government's odd
        behavior over the last 3+ months.

            6. Could it be that the real reason this material was
        taken November 6 had nothing to do with any crime then-
        suspected or later-charged, but in fact was taken in a ruse?
        Defendant Bell reminds the Court and government that he has
        not yet been given an Evidentiary Hearing, which due to the
        highly unusual specifics of this case must occur many weeks
        before any anticipated trial. Bell anticipates that this
        hearing will reveal that all the material taken November 6
        will be easily provable to have been entirely-legal
        information, but taken by an illegally-requested and illegally
        executed search done by people who intended at all times
        simply to deprive Bell of his properly-owned information.

             7. Defendant Bell concurs with Leen's conclusion that
        "The Government's proposal is completely unacceptable to the
        defense." However, Leen's proposed "solution" clearly reflects
        an inadequate and incomplete level of objection to the
        government's wholly outrageous proposal. Defendant Bell
        suggests that America's history and practice of "public trials"
        with public testimony and public evidence, is supposed to be
        primarily intended to protect a defendant's rights, but is
        secondarily and strongly intended to protect the public (and

        NOT simply the government-employed public!) against crooked
        government officials and employees and their practices.

             Indeed, for example one of the most direct impediments to
        espionage trials is the usual requirement that "classified"
        evidence must be de-classified to be used at trial. This makes
        it public information! Prosecutor London is apparently
        treating this case as if it were a spy trial, but at the same
        time he is cutting corners, legally, by asking for (and
        receiving, if the sham continues) the luxury of keeping the
        "classified information (in reality, people's addresses) secret
        both during and (presumably?) after trial! So far he won't even
        say how many such addresses he wishes to protect in this way!
        (less than a dozen? Hundreds? Thousands?)

             8. Even more oddly, London's PAO clearly anticipates
        showing all of this material to Defendant Bell, presumably
        including the addresses he wishes to "protect," while the more
        "obvious" solution in such cases would be to redact (black out
        in a copy, or cut out, etc) whatever information he doesn't
        wish Bell to have.

             While Bell can't endorse either system for obvious reasons,
        he can at least point out that the latter system would have
        the major advantage of not impeding his access to the vast
        majority of materials whe~e there is no arguable problem,
        including not prohibiting him from even taking notes (!)
        which would seem to be a thoroughly obnoxious attack on his
        ability to prepare a competent defense!

             Defendant Bell has already argued and accused the
        government in his other filings of simply intending to delay
        his case and impeding his preparation of his defense for 3+
        months (as of 3/10/01) on the flimsy fabricated excuse of
        denying him access to a few "addresses."  If the government
        is now willing to show him all of discovery including those
        addresses (but with extreme impediments to his access to and
        use of all of it, including the vast and presumably non-
        controversial majority) but is not willing to give him
        unimpeded access to a redacted version, this will prove beyond
        all doubt that Bell's accusations were absolutely true."

-----





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Mar 25 11:03:40 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:03:40 -0600
Subject: Ink 19 :: Moral Crux - Assassination Politics
Message-ID: <3ABE410C.FE98B143@ssz.com>


http://www.ink19.com/issues/november2000/wetInk/musicMN/moralCrux.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From stevet at sendon.net  Sun Mar 25 08:34:17 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:34:17 +0000
Subject: Hints...
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6e09f28c22d@[207.111.241.192]>
References: <F282breLDwdbWKEVqr40000739f@hotmail.com> <a05010400b6e09f28c22d@[207.111.241.192]>
Message-ID: <200103231729.MAA20382@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Tim May (tcmay at got.net):
> Sometimes I think the Cypherpunks list would be the first place to 
> start when the Master Cull begins.

Who is Master Cull and why is he reading my DNA?


(Apologies to Bill Gates)


Regards,

Steve
 




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Sun Mar 25 07:19:03 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:19:03 +0200
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
Message-ID: <4b0dbc13a8a759e6e6eb1aed0a190730@remailer.privacy.at>


David Honig said:

>What the world needs now 
>
>is a membrane keyboard, used only for entering keys, 
>which can be folded into a credit card and stored
>in your wallet.  If not hung around your neck.
>
>Or an iButton ring...
>
>Or implant...

This may be of some use:  http://www.agatetech.com/products_q.html.








From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Sun Mar 25 07:55:03 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:55:03 +0200
Subject: PGP flaw found by Czech firm allows dig sig to be forged
Message-ID: <f0599a8ebae0af26e10713787459b709@remailer.privacy.at>


David Honig said:

>What the world needs now 
>
>is a membrane keyboard, used only for entering keys, 
>which can be folded into a credit card and stored
>in your wallet.  If not hung around your neck.
>
>Or an iButton ring...
>
>Or implant...

This may be of some use:  http://www.agatetech.com/products_q.html.






From donald at ramsbottom.co.uk  Sun Mar 25 09:13:27 2001
From: donald at ramsbottom.co.uk (Donald ramsbottom)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:13:27 +0100
Subject: PGP attack specs
Message-ID: <mailman.385.1576007505.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Via Cryptome, below is the URL for the tech specs on the PGP attack



http://www.i.cz/en/pdf/openPGP_attack_ENGvktr.pdf



Donald Ramsbottom BA LLb (Hons) PGdip
Ramsbottom & Co Solicitors
Internet and Global Encryption Law Specialists & General UK  Law Matters
5 Seagrove Avenue Hayling Island Hampshire UK
Tel (44) 023 9246 5931 Fax (44) 023 9246 8349
Regulated by the Law Society in the conduct of Investment business
Service by Fax or Email NOT accepted



------- End of Forwarded Message






From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Mar 25 18:58:27 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:58:27 -0800
Subject: Meet the FBI: Re: hello
In-Reply-To: <3ABB4A0A.8580B865@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <18.a97598b.27ec22a7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010325184608.00a36310@idiom.com>



>In my limited understanding of the US system (I am neither a lawyer, nor
>resident on your continent) I think you can get to meet FBI agents if
>you are arrested for a federal crime.  The more serious the crime, the
>longer the meeting. If you did something really nasty, such as saying,
>for purposes of illustration of a political point, that certain
>government officials needed to be killed, and making barely credible
>suggestions as to how that might be brought about, then you could end up
>talking to a great many FBI agents,  for many years, at the taxpayer's
>expense.

Just because a crime is Federal doesn't mean the FBI will be involved;
depends on what you did, whether it's known at the time you did it that
there were Federal crimes involved, whether the investigation is something
that local cops can handle just fine or that need Federal help,
whether the Feds are FBI, DEA, BATF, IRS, or other Federal agencies, etc.

Sometimes the crime involves an actual victim and a crime scene,
and it may be obvious enough from the crime scene or victim complaint
that there are Federal crimes involved and enough complexity or
inter-state activity that the local cops will bring in Feds.
But sometimes the local cops don't need Federal help.

Also, sometimes the "crime" doesn't involve a victim -
it's private transactions between parties who aren't complaining
about it as long as neither party rips off the other party.
Sometimes those "crimes" are discovered by prying local cops,
sometimes by prying Feds, and sometimes the activity starts off
victimless, there's a dispute, and in the absence of the
ability to use the legal system to resolve conflict,
the parties resort to the pre-Common-Law Anglo-Saxon method of
Trial By Combat to resolve the problem, and the cops
discover that the participant has become deceased due to
issues of Interstate Commerce, or recognize him from The Files,
and bring in the FBI for help.

And sometimes the criminals are the BATF, and the FBI are
brought in to cover up, er, resolve the situation.





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From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Mar 25 19:40:21 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:40:21 -0600
Subject: Scientific American: Innovations: Getting More from Moore's: April 2001
Message-ID: <3ABEBA25.9EA87437@ssz.com>


http://www.sciam.com/2001/0401issue/0401innovations.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




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Subject: here's the XXX pics i promised you...
Message-ID: <0cd951448021a31ARITMETIK@aritmetik.ultim.net>


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From fogstorm at mac.com  Sun Mar 25 23:14:23 2001
From: fogstorm at mac.com (Fog Storm)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 23:14:23 -0800
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering Software[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <200103211553.KAA26348@divert.sendon.net>
Message-ID: <200103260714.XAA15424@smtpout.mac.com>



On Wednesday, March 21, 2001, at 08:45 AM, Steve Thompson wrote:

> A close friend confided to me that she's aware that the Canadian 
> government is
> working with the publishers of various dictionaries to compile a list 
> of words
> which in some rare circumstances could threaten national security.
>
> She expects that once the list is complete, officials will consider
> introducing legislation.

Surely they don't intend to outlaw using the words at all. Even 
outlawing the use of specific words in specific contexts would probably 
be difficult to enforce as a practical matter. The only way I can forsee 
this being used is as an enhancment charge like when a person is 
sometimes charged with carrying a gun during commision of a felony even 
if it's not displayed or used.




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Message-ID: <200103260650.f2Q6o1G21482@ak47.algebra.com>



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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Mar 26 01:35:49 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 01:35:49 -0800
Subject: Slashdot | 3D Microfluid Computers Used To Solve NP
  Problems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103242141020.6694-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <3ABD804F.90F2E793@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010326012144.00a3e870@idiom.com>


At 09:58 PM 03/24/2001 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>On Sat, 24 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> >http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/24/1840252.shtml
>
>Cryptographically interesting.  It looks like starting now,
>the highest-end threat facing a cryptosystem involves liters
>of fluid performing molecular computation.

Cryptographically *un*interesting.
         > [Good discussion of key lengths, deleted...]

The microfluid computers were solving small instances of NP problems;
larger volumes would let them solve larger instances, but not
blazingly large, though you could get respectably large by using
an ocean-full of the stuff.  That gets you a few extra bits of solution.
But it's not solving general-purpose computing - it's solving
specialized problems which may be somewhat useful for small
instances of NP-hard problems, so it may be useful for
possibly-NP-hard problems like factoring and discrete logs.
Adding a few bits of key length to those problems is less annoying
than adding them to most symmetric-key algorithms, where
there's more likely to be structure to the key length
(e.g. adding a few key bits to RC4 is no problem,
as long as you're below 255, but adding them to DES doesn't work.)

Judging from the abstract, it's still cool stuff,
even if it's not all that practical.





From chakotay at myrealbox.com  Sun Mar 25 21:38:06 2001
From: chakotay at myrealbox.com (Cha Kotay)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 05:38:06 GMT
Subject: Stealth Scans
Message-ID: <985585086.786chakotay@myrealbox.com>


Understanding stealth scans: Forewarned is forearmed 
Learn the 'secret handshakes' of TCP/IP that crackers 
exploit 
Summary
This week Joe Barr presents the first of two columns about 
stealth scans, and NMAP, a port scanner used by attackers 
and system administrators alike. (1,300 words) 
By Joe Barr 

http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2001-03/lw-03-
vcontrol_3.html
--
Chakotay

"Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, 
and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them."
Joseph Heller, Catch-22





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Mar 26 09:51:49 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:51:49 -0800
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <20010322023714.63382.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010326095051.00a44810@idiom.com>


It's been 30 years since I read The Time Machine,
but didn't the Eloi only have 1 L in their name?

 > Received: from [204.156.156.63] by web13205.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 21 Mar 
2001 18:37:14 PST

How fast they trace Yahoo is an open question -
If you care, find an anonymizer to read your webmail through.

I'm reading off-line, but the IP address is probably that of
the machine at the internet cafe you're using -
depending on how organized the cafe and someone tracing you are,
they may be able to find you quickly, or not.
For instance, if you're at joesinternetcafe.com,
Joe's Internet Cafe, 1234 5th street, San Francisco,
and Joe's system adminstrator can tell that
.63 is the table in the corner, you may be toast.
On the other hand, if your IP address is a
NAT box on a DSL line connected to Pac Bell Internet,
at a chain of coffeeshops staffed by non-technical baristas,
         "I don't know how the router thing works.  Want donuts?"
and you're a 17-year-old kid in a room full of
15-20-year-old kids playing Quake, you'll have plenty of time
to boogie out of there before the cops show up,
or certainly before they figure out it was you -
unless you've threatened to nuke Washington now,
any investigation will be after the fact,
so the real issue is whether you paid by credit card or cash
and whether any name you used is traceable to you.


At 06:37 PM 03/21/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>OK, the first one didn't work.
>
>Any idea how long does it take for LEA to request
>yahoo
>logs, get the IP, go to ISP and figure out who I am ?
>
>Or is it fully automated by now, so if I mention AP my
>name (as ISP knows it) flashes on some screen ?
>
>Or someone is sent to the internet cafe I am posting
>from ?
>
>Questions, questions.
>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From BF at farc.org  Mon Mar 26 11:26:41 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:26:41 -0800
Subject: shithead federal public defenders
Message-ID: <3ABF97F1.8D9C51E3@farc.org>


Hey Aimee, check out the ethics on *this* dude...




McVeigh's Former Attorney Willing to
               Testify Against Nichols

Jones said he believes usual attorney-client privilege - which
               prohibits attorneys from disclosing what defendants tell
them - no
               longer applies in the case.

               McVeigh had a falling-out with Jones after the 1997
federal trial
               and last year sought a new trial on grounds that Jones
was
               incompetent and unethical. Jones said McVeigh gave up the
right
               to confidentiality by making the attack.


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAVY1AESKC.html




From askew at execs.com  Mon Mar 26 12:20:43 2001
From: askew at execs.com (Scott Chauncey)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:20:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: YOU WON $30 DOLLARS!
Message-ID: <382630560.985638043139.JavaMail.root@web105-mc>


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From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Mon Mar 26 15:57:46 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:57:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: shithead federal public defenders 
Message-ID: <200103262357.f2QNvk001416@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Blank Frank wrote:
 
> McVeigh's Former Attorney Willing to
>                Testify Against Nichols

This was the guy who acted like he was on the prosecution payroll
all during the trial, right?  

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From sales at edgar-online.com  Mon Mar 26 16:04:54 2001
From: sales at edgar-online.com (EDGAR Online Customer Support)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:04:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome to EDGAR Online! Here's Your Password
Message-ID: <200103270004.QAA15123@toad.com>



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From declan at well.com  Mon Mar 26 13:24:04 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:24:04 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell Royally
In-Reply-To: <200103250002.TAA00999@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 06:50:32PM -0500
References: <200103250002.TAA00999@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010326162404.A16182@cluebot.com>


On Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 06:50:32PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> What's up with Declan's fighting his subpoena? Is the press

My lawyer is talking to the Feds...

-Declan




From boo at datashopper.dk  Mon Mar 26 06:28:44 2001
From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:28:44 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Report on GSM security, danish ministry of it- & science
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010326161645.15419A-100000@apollon.datashopper.dk>


The danish minister of IT- & science Birte Weiss has delivered a report on
GSM security, use of encryption and interception. The main conclusions has
been posted on the parliament website at
http://www.ft.dk/Samling/20001/udvbilag/FKU/Almdel_bilag202.htm

The document is in danish, but the main conclusions are:

Tha algorithm A5/1 has not been broken in connection with use in a
GSM-system.

Unauthorized interception by breaking the encryption is not practically
possible.

The minister says, that the decision to use only 54 bits out of the 64
bits possible, by setting the last ten bits to zero, was made with
reference to COCOM export regulations. GSM Association recommends that
telecom providers start implementing use of the last ten bits. The four
danish cell phone providers Tele Danmark (TDC), Mobilix, Sonofon and Telia
has already started implementing the use of the last ten bits.

This report is built in parts on the dutch minister of defences report to
the dutch parliament on Echelon-like interceptions.

Yours

-- 


EOT 





From boo at datashopper.dk  Mon Mar 26 06:28:44 2001
From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:28:44 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Report on GSM security, danish ministry of it- & science
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010326161645.15419A-100000@apollon.datashopp
  er.dk>


The danish minister of IT- & science Birte Weiss has delivered a report on
GSM security, use of encryption and interception. The main conclusions has
been posted on the parliament website at
http://www.ft.dk/Samling/20001/udvbilag/FKU/Almdel_bilag202.htm

The document is in danish, but the main conclusions are:

Tha algorithm A5/1 has not been broken in connection with use in a
GSM-system.

Unauthorized interception by breaking the encryption is not practically
possible.

The minister says, that the decision to use only 54 bits out of the 64
bits possible, by setting the last ten bits to zero, was made with
reference to COCOM export regulations. GSM Association recommends that
telecom providers start implementing use of the last ten bits. The four
danish cell phone providers Tele Danmark (TDC), Mobilix, Sonofon and Telia
has already started implementing the use of the last ten bits.

This report is built in parts on the dutch minister of defences report to
the dutch parliament on Echelon-like interceptions.

Yours

-- 


EOT 




From haceaton at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 13:31:38 2001
From: haceaton at hotmail.com (Harold Eaton)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:31:38 -0500
Subject: [dvd-discuss] DeCSS public key, been there, done that
Message-ID: <mailman.386.1576007505.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Ok, everybody can have efdtt.c.gz as their public key!

Here is the algorithm:

Choose a j such that 256^j is a large enough random
space for you to feel secure, and factors of that order
will be hard to find in a composite number.

Pick a random number, R < 256^j
Find q = nextprime(256^j - R)
Find k = decimal representation of efdtt.c.gz
Find p = nextprime(k*256^(j+1)/q)
Verify that (p-1)(n-1) is relatively prime to your public exponent,
if not, try a few public exponents, or start over with a new
random number.

Compute n=pq, this is the public key modulus.
Verify that n/256^(j+1) = k in case there was a large (>256) gap
in the primes.  If it fails, try p=nextprime(k*256^(j+2)/q).
n can be converted to hex and gunzipped to the efdtt.c source code.

Go compute your private exponent d, then destroy p, q and R.
Let everybody know your public key and what it can be used for ;-)

Attached is a sample program to illustrate the key generation.
Feed efdtt.c.gz to its standard input.
For j=32 (256 bit random number), it takes about 1-1/2 minutes
on my 266MHz G3. Be sure to use your own random number, not the
one in the code.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
-- http://www.lemuria.org
-- http://www.Nexus-Project.net
--

--vkogqOf2sHV7VnPd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="public.c"

#include <gmp.h>
#include <stdio.h>
/* J is j * 8 to use powers of 2 instead of 256 */
/* R is your random number, don't use the one shown
 * if this is really going to produce your public key
 */
#define J 256L
#define R "8741288239734901231012300419439827747721239184132"

main ()
{
  mpz_t a, q, p, n, k;
  unsigned long c;

  mpz_init (q);
  mpz_init (p);
  mpz_init (n);
  mpz_init (k);
  mpz_init (a);
  while ((c = getchar ()) != EOF)
    {
      mpz_mul_ui (k, k, 256L);
      mpz_add_ui (k, k, c);
    }
  printf ("k is:\n");
  mpz_out_str (stdout, 10, k);
  printf ("\n\nq is:\n");
  mpz_set_str (q, R, 0);
  mpz_set_ui (p, 1L);
  mpz_mul_2exp (p, p, J);
  mpz_sub (q, p, q);
  mpz_nextprime (q, q);
  mpz_out_str (stdout, 10, q);
  printf ("\n\np is:\n");
/* over-expanding should guarantee an answer */
  mpz_mul_2exp (a, k, J + 16L);
  mpz_tdiv_q (p, a, q);
  mpz_nextprime (p, p);
  mpz_out_str (stdout, 10, p);
  printf ("\n\nn is:\n");
  mpz_mul (n, p, q);
  mpz_out_str (stdout, 10, n);
  printf ("\n\n65537 gcd (p-1)(q-1) is:\n");
  mpz_sub_ui (p, p, 1L);
  mpz_sub_ui (q, q, 1L);
  mpz_mul (a, p, q);
  mpz_gcd_ui (a, a, 65537L);
  mpz_out_str (stdout, 10, a);
  printf ("\n\nn/256^34 is:\n");
  mpz_set_ui (q, 1L);
  mpz_mul_2exp (q, q, J + 16L);
  mpz_tdiv_q (q, n, q);
  mpz_out_str (stdout, 10, q);
  printf ("\n\n difference from k is:\n");
  mpz_sub (k, k, q);
  mpz_out_str (stdout, 10, k);
  printf ("\n");
}

--vkogqOf2sHV7VnPd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=keys

k is:
489791971139294721492890070820155569620855660960671152212956498742039672112756515508187293741821313343828432787304645596036261708404238649106578165524494163400608981624770671588151402810099681387253505295523873528607505025404055656640662917263299188105134143828382070106290368480093502782669567301116939263880957511639706827141547209129803084934032419725412566483604334931280689111374224553996188329634360332732653261350171222703208193468891532899326692623514903323012432164895187708186345355697953671882383578250883882558619759274176822251124822180272439609500079726934520797625058937758586291699109806463439054605698740756573226324905651996790831494040667293495224230225078284196001746999337737330711700914242699218902328035406113882295732383384553898452229896017081749832945397093734240256603444289486458831879575367414145067878143633157580402523817166917607364019003392000

q is:
115792089237316195423570984999946619613535083434628263620017756260191890456207

p is:
32099006620584818867758043683692909179157113078856802328307357725679404828875458036112204440028287258720600878846414464221802919598857755802551492120960491443536919941289105406159302962848983801052659527723163782414700203964980283244265254677334683288229164946558372183147626488962268484716538959807411260791234028030592489974438867729461987791791553884810951540842460393345315628177603284809889244563826187850440471139025472057683483388847187895555835840248034326855258817994192035983332746563490378241602993686226024065423242879590873464950086580106928582897514901915848883068408264220378135988671718732214067062726547117458692721591359406370200290314624754063127400960094087895867637742075025483639428201109722721079724930178043745028933885128829906698168853154318706644966851186313088493594654968888582627071463897569198911359861742320383875823857580617071265625042430280842643

n is:
3716811039039960706457524364949523842483974709176236306917175996062120032369708610745538218545522531664764465328423063494363196237644912389564475489661364952303184692294444935724490425975207070376229471778973717896788807789416839263843979568326381262723493245674672893710695001177760276359941234091237449113769973392194789233069068685293909686054825572223619425889488695186536175849988709242777545311678609308300767119865148164828450064163356019724173532529678780021610811588427801992612303262463310985388919921159292894103158798781854907467097518709574773757761042400077263602354838379849589374059901729799489357305145264298609194342967597564222428418510955996385751370907147998230866973978555948242731998082064388086263087200167120592207556402931775017115750800793843162008617148122395051131879332692680935185080661392002417411017976827918323597340834406580075343884328073239968728524701751479392305371080458252121291682088279177666443938518065897649635101

65537 gcd (p-1)(q-1) is:
1

n/256^34 is:
489791971139294721492890070820155569620855660960671152212956498742039672112756515508187293741821313343828432787304645596036261708404238649106578165524494163400608981624770671588151402810099681387253505295523873528607505025404055656640662917263299188105134143828382070106290368480093502782669567301116939263880957511639706827141547209129803084934032419725412566483604334931280689111374224553996188329634360332732653261350171222703208193468891532899326692623514903323012432164895187708186345355697953671882383578250883882558619759274176822251124822180272439609500079726934520797625058937758586291699109806463439054605698740756573226324905651996790831494040667293495224230225078284196001746999337737330711700914242699218902328035406113882295732383384553898452229896017081749832945397093734240256603444289486458831879575367414145067878143633157580402523817166917607364019003392000

 difference from k is:
0

--vkogqOf2sHV7VnPd--




From announce at inbox.nytimes.com  Mon Mar 26 13:34:28 2001
From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:34:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Important Membership Information
Message-ID: <200103262134.QAA02056@web1t.lga2.nytimes.com>



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From hells_darkest at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 15:16:20 2001
From: hells_darkest at hotmail.com (Drakonus)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:16:20 -0600
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <OE33SU0hXCRQcqmSvux00002c62@hotmail.com>

What is Bletchly Park????
-------------- next part --------------
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From Jeff.Gordon at tigta.treas.gov  Mon Mar 26 14:30:35 2001
From: Jeff.Gordon at tigta.treas.gov (Gordon Jeff TIGTA)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:30:35 -0500
Subject: Bell trial postponed 1 day
Message-ID: <mailman.387.1576007506.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

:
:

John

The Judge has decided he will not actually start Bell's trial until Tuesday,
4/3 - everyone's testimony will be delayed 1 day - So you will need to be at
the Federal courthouse in Tacoma by Wed, 4/4 at 9:00am, and you should be
done no later than Thursday afternoon

If you want to be reimbursed for your expenses, you will need to make travel
arrangements through the US Attorney's office, Dru Mercer, (206) 553-7970

Jeff

---

And an older message:


From dreamweaverdownload at macromedia.com  Mon Mar 26 17:31:36 2001
From: dreamweaverdownload at macromedia.com (The Macromedia Dreamweaver Team)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:31:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome to Your 30-Day Download Trial!
Message-ID: <200103270131.f2R1VaI22558@stan.macromedia.com>



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From emc3052001 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 17:34:11 2001
From: emc3052001 at yahoo.com (emc3052001 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:34:11
Subject: New Targeted E-Mail List TODAY!
Message-ID: <200103270300.MAA12612@kice3.kice.re.kr>


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From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar 26 15:41:22 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:41:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hi
In-Reply-To: <OE33SU0hXCRQcqmSvux00002c62@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010326174043.14587g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



It is 2001,

google.com

And as to toad.com,

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Drakonus wrote:

> What is Bletchly Park????

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From galt at inconnu.isu.edu  Mon Mar 26 17:02:03 2001
From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:02:03 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Hi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010326174043.14587g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103261759000.11496-100000@inconnu.isu.edu>


On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>
>It is 2001,
>
>google.com
>
>And as to toad.com,
>
>http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

Looking up einstein.ssz.com first
Looking up einstein.ssz.com
Making HTTP connection to einstein.ssz.com
Sending HTTP request.
HTTP request sent; waiting for response.
HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
Data transfer complete
HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
Looking up einstein.ssz.com
Making HTTP connection to einstein.ssz.com
Sending HTTP request.
HTTP request sent; waiting for response.
Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted.
Can't Access `http://einstein.toad.ssz.com/cdr/'
Alert!: Unable to access document.

two for two.....

>On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Drakonus wrote:
>
>> What is Bletchly Park????
>
>    ____________________________________________________________________
>
>         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
>         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?
>
>       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

-- 
I can be immature if I want to, because I'm mature enough to make my own
decisions.

Who is John Galt?  galt at inconnu.isu.edu




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Mar 26 15:13:09 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:13:09 -0500
Subject: Bell trial postponed 1 day
Message-ID: <200103262324.SAA31544@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


--


From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Mar 26 18:21:32 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:21:32 -0800
Subject: Traffic
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010326175458.0404ecf0@pop3.lvcm.com>

AND THE OSCAR FOR BEST PICTURE ON GOVERNMENT FAILURE GOES TO..."

Steven Soderbergh's "Traffic" failed to win last night's Academy Award for 
Best Picture, but its sobering lessons about the War on Drugs make it 
Hollywood's most educational offering in years, explains economist Jeffrey 
Miron, research fellow at The Independent Institute, in an op-ed that 
appeared in yesterday's San Diego Union-Tribune, New Jersey Record, and the 
Orange County Register.

"Although 'Traffic' did not win the Oscar for Best Picture of the Year, 
writes Miron, "it deserves the title of Most Important Picture of the Year."

"Traffic" does not address all of the drug war's unintended consequences 
(no film could), but what it does address, it does so brilliantly. 
"Traffic" Miron argues, shows how drug prohibition causes the violence 
often attributed to drugs, corrupts government bureaucrats, enriches 
criminals at expense of the rest of society, and strains relations between 
races and nations. "Traffic" also shows why many law-enforcement agents 
come to believe that the drug war cannot be won.

Given the drug war's many casualties, the cultural impact of "Traffic" may 
come to surpass that of two other recent movies that bust the myth of good 
government, William Gazecki's shocking documentary, "Waco: The Rules of 
Engagement" (1997) -- which led to more Congressional hearings on the Waco 
raid -- and Barry Levinson's prescient tragicomedy, "Wag the Dog" (1997) -- 
whose title has become a catch phrase for presidential slights of hand 
conducted with military props. If so, then perhaps the United States will 
begin to wean itself from its destructive addiction to the drug war.

(Note: For TV viewers who didn't recognize former White House Drug Czar 
Barry McCaffrey in the audience at last night's Academy Award ceremonies, 
McCaffrey was the one wearing egg on his face.)

See "Traffic's Lessons" by Jeffrey A. Miron, at
http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-12-1.html.

Also see:
"The American Drug War: Anatomy of a Futile and Costly Policy Action" by 
Independent Institute Research Fellows Bruce L. Benson and David W. 
Rasmussen, at
http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-12-2.html.

Bruce L. Benson and David W. Rasmussen's article, "Predatory Public Finance 
and the Origins of the War on Drugs, 1984-1989" (THE INDEPENDENT REVIEW, 
1996), at
http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-12-3.html.

D. Eric Schansberg's review of DRUG POLICY AND THE DECLINE OF AMERICAN 
CITIES by Sam Staley (THE INDEPENDENT REVIEW, Winter 1998), at
http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-12-4.html.

For more writing from The Independent Institute on illicit drugs, see
http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-12-5.html.
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From m372689344 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 03:04:23 2001
From: m372689344 at hotmail.com (m372689344 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:04:23 +0800 (CST)
Subject: �̷s��T���n��w�ѯ�!�D�D�D�̷s��T���n��w�ѯ��̷s��T���n��w�ѯ�!�D�D�̷s��T���n��w�ѯ�!�D�D�D�D
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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Mar 26 16:07:13 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:07:13 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 3
Message-ID: <200103270019.TAA17519@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


I returned a telephone message today left on the 22
asking me to call about appearing as a witness for
Jim Bell. The name Leen was cited (Robert Leen is
Jim's PD). The number left, 1-800-797-6722, turned
out to be the Public Defenders Office. A man who
answered passed me to the US Attorney's Office,
to a Jennifer Mullane, who was out, so I left a message
to call me.

Nobody called back so I called Robert Leen's office, and
spoke to Leen. He said oh yes John Young, you're a
friend of Jim Bell's. I said, no, I'm a supporter. Well, he
said, I've seen an email you wrote to Jim which the
government is going to use in the trial, so that is what
I meant by you being a friend. The email they questioned 
you about in the grand jury.

I said I had not written Jim any email and told the grand
jury that I'd posted a message on a public list, not sent
one to Jim directly. Oh, Leen said.

I asked if he or Jim had arranged the call about my
being a witness for Jim. He said, no, not that I'm
aware of. Jim has prepared a witness list but you're
not on it. But I'm not getting along with Jim so I can't
be sure. You probably know that a lot of people don't
get along with Jim,

I didn't answer that.

He said you probably were called about being a
government witness, because we didn't call you.

I said I had got a government subpoena already.

He said that was for the grand jury, right.

I said, no, another subpoena for the trial. That is
what makes the call last week about being a witness
for Jim curious.

Leen said. I'll look into it and call you tomorrow.

An hour later I got the message from Jeff about the
trial being postponed a day.

----

Here's Jim's March 18 filing of a partial witness list:

  Comes now the Defendant, James Dalton Bell, who declares that
  he is effectively and unwillingly unrepresented, and that
  his 6th Amendment Right to Counsel has been repeatedly and
  intentionally violated since on or about December 1, 2000.
  Defendant Bell has repeatedly sent letters to the court asking
  for substitute counsel, and two separate motions by attorney
  Robert Leen have been essentially ignored since mid-
  December, 2000.

  [Handwritten]

   1. Due to Leen's refusal to do substantial work on my
   case, and to preserve my rights, I submit the
   following partial witness list:

   Ryan Thomas Lund
   Joane Maida
   Robert Gombiner
   Steve Wilson
   Charles Vollmer
   Lisa Stevenson
   Ernest "Ernie" Grissell
   David King
   Alverna King
   Daniel J. Saban
   Leslie Spier
   Jeff Gordon
   Mike McNall
   Steve Mueller

                                       [Signature]
                                       James Bell 3/18/01
 
-----

For more on these witnesses, see the feds' complaint:

   http://cryptome.org/jdb111700.htm

And Jim's recent filings:

   http://cryptome.org/jdb031301.htm




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar 26 17:16:19 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:16:19 -0600
Subject: Atty-Cli confidentiality (was...shithead federal public
  defenders)
In-Reply-To: <3ABF97F1.8D9C51E3@farc.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEPACHAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


A one Mr. Blank Frank invoked me with:

> Hey Aimee, check out the ethics on *this* dude...
>> [snip]

Eh, the attorney-client privilege has a good many holes in it.

Some circles of folk are of the opinion that attorneys are very talky,
perhaps second only to marketers. It seems that in these circles, lawyers
are not known for being paragons of confidentiality, in stark contrast to
their ethical principles and their personal beliefs. The moral? Well, let us
just say that it extends beyond the "shithead federal public defender"
context.

~Aimee




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Mar 26 16:33:42 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:33:42 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 4
Message-ID: <200103270045.TAA20782@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


I got 15 filings this afternoon from Jim Bell, most of
which I had downloaded from the WWA web site last
week and put up over the weekend. I'll add the missing
stuff. Jim writes:

  "Talking to Declan McCullagh a few days ago I was
  utterly astonished that he *had not* forwarded extra
  copies of my legal filings to you (or anyone else)
  despite my strenuous wish, and though I sent him
  2 copies of most of them.

  It is vitally important that these be posted ASAP. I hope
  you can do this, or find someone who can. I assume
  you can put them on www.jya.com/jdbfiles.htm. They
  are all public now. It is extremely important."

Declan and I had lunch in New York last Friday, and
he mentioned that he had some Jim Bell papers he
had wanted to give me. I said I had just downloaded
a bunch from the court web site. He said you mean
the docket. I said no, the filings, a lot of them appearing
rapidly. That most had been delayed by the feds.

We discussed other slime which won't be posted here,
but nothing about the Bell screwing, which is verboten,
especially in the place we got drunk in and told lies
about our vanishing 1A status.

Our personal recorders whirred silently. Declan
had his camera out in the open, his recorder
in the bag, not me -- the tongueless waiter's mine.





From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar 26 17:53:14 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:53:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103261759000.11496-100000@inconnu.isu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010326195306.14587q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Well your mail certainly got here.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, John Galt wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >
> >It is 2001,
> >
> >google.com
> >
> >And as to toad.com,
> >
> >http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr
> 
> Looking up einstein.ssz.com first
> Looking up einstein.ssz.com
> Making HTTP connection to einstein.ssz.com
> Sending HTTP request.
> HTTP request sent; waiting for response.
> HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
> Data transfer complete
> HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
> Looking up einstein.ssz.com
> Making HTTP connection to einstein.ssz.com
> Sending HTTP request.
> HTTP request sent; waiting for response.
> Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted.
> Can't Access `http://einstein.toad.ssz.com/cdr/'
> Alert!: Unable to access document.
> 
> two for two.....
> 
> >On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Drakonus wrote:
> >
> >> What is Bletchly Park????
> >
> >    ____________________________________________________________________
> >
> >         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
> >         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?
> >
> >       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
> >       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
> >       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
> >                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> >    --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> 
> -- 
> I can be immature if I want to, because I'm mature enough to make my own
> decisions.
> 
> Who is John Galt?  galt at inconnu.isu.edu
> 




From wonka667 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 17:25:05 2001
From: wonka667 at yahoo.com (Mgt.tw)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:25:05 -0500
Subject: Business opportunities
Message-ID: <200103270141.TAA29781@einstein.ssz.com>


If this message cuts off, please go to 
www.geocities.com/wonka667/instructions.html



Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
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an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you 
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IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 
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=================================================== 
Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long 
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
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========================================================== 
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it 
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Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist 
you with 
marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will 
provide 
you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk 
e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much 
more. 
There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 
METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
========================================================== 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's 
also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response 
could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people 
will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% 
response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded 
by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 
e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and 
ordered Report # 2. 
Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 
e-mails. 
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 
Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million 
e-mails 
sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. 
Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
Report 
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 
Your total income in this example is:  $50 +  $500 +  $5,000 +  $50,000 + 
$500,000
 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 
NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT 
THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU 
CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 
========================================================= 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE 
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even 
one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are 
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, 
many people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
======================================================= 
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds 
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 
and dd METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you 
must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide 
same day service on all orders. 
This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and 
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they 
receivethe report. 
=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== 
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: 
Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 
sheets 
of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME 
of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name 
and postal address. 
PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==================================================== 
REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" 
Order Report #1 from: 



Tracy Weeks
28 Sunshine Road   
Upper Darby, Pa 19082
___________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net" 
Order Report # 2 from: 

Tom Cameron
402 Raymond Rd.
Waunakee, WI  53597
USA
________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net" 
Order Report # 3 from : 

Jacque Hart
17515 Iceland Ct.
Lakeville, MN  55044
____________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" 
Order Report # 4 from:

C. J. Kalata
P.O. Box 130157
Roseville, MN  55113-0002
USA 
___________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free" 
Order Report # 5 from: 

R. B.
Box 21115
Grande Prairie
Alberta, T8V-6W7
Canada
____________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 
=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 
=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you 
should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, 
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 
=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU 
CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the 
cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: 
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front 
of a Different report. 
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE 
INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START 
THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. 
There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! 
====================================================== 
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS 
PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you 
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST 
A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next 
few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program 
EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put 
your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 
as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 
100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. 
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers 
you will reach. 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ 
"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. 
When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk 
mail''. I made fun of the whole thing,spouting my knowledge of the 
population 
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored 
my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I 
made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' 
on 
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks 
she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received 
total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody 
in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
====================================================== 
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided 
that 
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was 
surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with 
orders. I made $319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about 
this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't 
a 
better investment with a faster return and so big." 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
======================================================= 
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered 
if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to 
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the 
money came within 22 weeks." 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
======================================================= 
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with 
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and 
within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made 
$20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was 
$362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.". 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
======================================================= 
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 
'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! 
======================================================= 
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the 
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade 
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 






From wonka667 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 17:25:23 2001
From: wonka667 at yahoo.com (Mgt.tw)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:25:23 -0500
Subject: Business opportunities
Message-ID: <200103270122.RAA18227@toad.com>


If this message cuts off, please go to 
www.geocities.com/wonka667/instructions.html



Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for 
an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you 
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of 
this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently 
devoted 
an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see 
if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or 
not the program was legal. 
Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws 
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the 
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only 
$25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF 
POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, 
IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 
This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I 
was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am 
so gladI finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the 
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 
610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." 
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. 
=================================================== 
Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long 
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again 
in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple 
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. 
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made 
a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the 
program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The 
key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change 
anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 

===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ====== 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and 
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL 
DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ===== 
For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT 
YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose 
name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN 
ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail 
problems. 
=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. 
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer 
and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 
Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from 
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be 
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them 
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in 
case something happen to your computer. 
IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next 
to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what 
is 
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on 
majority 
of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see 
how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been 
tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put 
their 
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. 
But 
it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and 
then 
nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is 
instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. 
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 
1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and 
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person 
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 
2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE 
SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 
========================================================== 
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it 
on your 
computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 
Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist 
you with 
marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will 
provide 
you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk 
e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much 
more. 
There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 
METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
========================================================== 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's 
also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response 
could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people 
will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% 
response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded 
by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 
e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and 
ordered Report # 2. 
Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 
e-mails. 
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 
Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million 
e-mails 
sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. 
Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
Report 
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 
Your total income in this example is:  $50 +  $500 +  $5,000 +  $50,000 + 
$500,000
 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 
NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT 
THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU 
CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 
========================================================= 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE 
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even 
one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are 
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, 
many people will do just that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
======================================================= 
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds 
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 
and dd METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you 
must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide 
same day service on all orders. 
This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and 
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they 
receivethe report. 
=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== 
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: 
Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 
sheets 
of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME 
of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name 
and postal address. 
PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==================================================== 
REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" 
Order Report #1 from: 



Tracy Weeks
28 Sunshine Road   
Upper Darby, Pa 19082
___________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net" 
Order Report # 2 from: 

Tom Cameron
402 Raymond Rd.
Waunakee, WI  53597
USA
________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net" 
Order Report # 3 from : 

Jacque Hart
17515 Iceland Ct.
Lakeville, MN  55044
____________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" 
Order Report # 4 from:

C. J. Kalata
P.O. Box 130157
Roseville, MN  55113-0002
USA 
___________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free" 
Order Report # 5 from: 

R. B.
Box 21115
Grande Prairie
Alberta, T8V-6W7
Canada
____________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 
=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 
=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you 
should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, 
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 
=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU 
CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the 
cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: 
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front 
of a Different report. 
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE 
INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START 
THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. 
There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! 
====================================================== 
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS 
PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you 
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST 
A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next 
few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program 
EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put 
your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 
as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 
100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. 
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers 
you will reach. 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ 
"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. 
When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk 
mail''. I made fun of the whole thing,spouting my knowledge of the 
population 
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored 
my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I 
made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' 
on 
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks 
she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received 
total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody 
in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
====================================================== 
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided 
that 
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was 
surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with 
orders. I made $319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about 
this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't 
a 
better investment with a faster return and so big." 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
======================================================= 
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered 
if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to 
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the 
money came within 22 weeks." 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
======================================================= 
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with 
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and 
within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made 
$20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was 
$362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.". 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
======================================================= 
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 
'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! 
======================================================= 
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the 
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade 
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 






From jalalihartman at usa.net  Mon Mar 26 19:43:00 2001
From: jalalihartman at usa.net (jalalihartman at usa.net)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:43:00 -0700
Subject: Sell everywhere at once!
Message-ID: <5999663.985664580861.JavaMail.root@mail1.storebusters.com>

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From jalalihartman at usa.net  Mon Mar 26 19:43:34 2001
From: jalalihartman at usa.net (jalalihartman at usa.net)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:43:34 -0700
Subject: Sell everywhere at once!
Message-ID: <2272058.985664614492.JavaMail.root@mail1.storebusters.com>

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From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Mar 26 19:34:53 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:34:53 -0600
Subject: Criminalization of "intentional looking" (Canadian Kiddie Porn
  Law)
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPCEPICHAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


IMPORTANT NOTICE: BY REPLYING TO THIS TRANSMISSION YOU ARE REPRESENTING THAT
YOU ARE AT LEAST 18 YEARS OF AGE OR OLDER.*

I know Mr. May brought this up, but the earlier newslink left out some
important info. Here is a backgrounder:
http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/news/nr/2001/doc_26058.html - I can't find a
link to the actual bill on their site...(???) According to the backgrounder,
the kiddie porn elements of the CA Omnibus include/enhance the
criminalization of:

o luring*
o exporting

o transmitting
"This will make distribution of child pornography from one person to another
illegal" (Duh, but I don't know how far this definition extends.)

o making available
"This applies when someone posts child pornography material on a web site or
offers information on where to find it, for example, by providing a web site
address"

o "intentional" access - (5 years)
"Another new provision will prohibit anyone from intentionally accessing
child pornography on the Internet. This offence will be punishable by up to
five years imprisonment. Accessing offence does not criminalize someone who
inadvertently views child pornography on the Internet. The proposed
amendment will require the person to have knowledge that there is child
pornography on the site and a specific intention to access this material."
[FN1]

o possession with intent to distribute, etc.
o forfeiture provisions
o transcontinental provisions

.........

1. Better known as the 'Lot's Wife' regulatory approach to the Internet.

~ Aimee




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar 26 20:44:23 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 22:44:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: cryptography@c2.org? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010326224411.14587w-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



FYI
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:31:19 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at shipwright.com>
To: Digital Bearer Settlement List <dbs at philodox.com>, dcsb at ai.mit.edu,
    mac-crypto at vmeng.com, coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: cryptography at c2.org?

At 12:03 PM -0800 on 3/18/01, Somebody wrote:


> Hi... do you know what happened to cryptography at c2.org?  Did Perry
> disappear or is he just on vacation or something?

No idea. He hasn't sent anything since the 20th of February, according to
my filters...

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar 26 21:37:48 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 23:37:48 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Scientist: 2 gunmen involved in JFK assassination - March 26, 2001
Message-ID: <3AC0272C.707E5C03@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/03/26/britain.kennedy.reut/index.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Mar 26 21:39:21 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 23:39:21 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Creeping Toward 10 Qbits: Atomic Computing
Message-ID: <3AC02788.3B50B91B@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/27/0318200.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From weeklymag at corpmail.hr.com  Mon Mar 26 21:13:34 2001
From: weeklymag at corpmail.hr.com (weeklymag at corpmail.hr.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:13:34 -0500
Subject: HR.com's eBulletin for the Week of March 26, 2001
Message-ID: <200103270552.VAA10847@cyberpass.net>

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From: cupid at adultfriendfinder.com (cupid at adultfriendfinder.com)
Date: 27 Mar 2001 03:07:30 -0800
Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo
Message-ID: <20010327110730.20166.qmail@e81.friendfinder.com>


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From Celebrations at newsletter.photopoint.com  Tue Mar 27 01:54:32 2001
From: Celebrations at newsletter.photopoint.com (Celebrations at newsletter.photopoint.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 05:54:32 -0400 (AST)
Subject: From sand to snow - go on a photographic adventure with PhotoPoint
Message-ID: <200103270954.f2R9sWt15517@sdev10.photopoint.com>

PhotoPoint.com Presents
**********************************
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**********************************

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***********************************************

Copyright© 1998-2001 by PhotoPoint Corp. All Rights Reserved.
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From john.hazlewood at thestoremaker.net  Tue Mar 27 07:41:32 2001
From: john.hazlewood at thestoremaker.net (John Hazlewood)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:41:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Branded/Private Label Realtime Internet Travel Booking Engine
Message-ID: <200103271541.HAA18736@cyberpass.net>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar 27 05:42:39 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:42:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: a 32-bit block cipher (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010327074231.14587C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:49:02 +1100
From: Greg Rose <ggr at qualcomm.com>
To: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: a 32-bit block cipher

Recently I needed a way of generating an
unpredictable permutation function of 32-bit
values, in other words, a block cipher with a
32-bit block. It was important for that
application that 32-bit values generated over a
period of time should not repeat. I searched
around looking for such a cipher, and couldn't
find one, not surprisingly since it would be
insecure in the face of a codebook style attack
(the entire codebook would fit into 16GB).

Anyway, that didn't change the fact that I needed
one, so I wrote one. I took Skipjack (Panu
Rissanen <bande at lut.fi>'s version) and turned it
into a 24-round feistel cipher. It retains the
F-table, the G-permutation and the key-schedule
(including the 80-bit keys), but it loses the
feedback register structure and the two different
kinds of rounds.

Then for the fun of it I applied for, and
received, an export license from the Australian
Defence Signals Directorate that allows me to post
it on the Web. It's at:
   http://www.home.aone.net.au/qualcomm/skip32.c

It's freely available, and I hope it is of use to
someone else too. If anyone sees any problems with
it, please do tell me.

Greg.

Greg Rose                                       INTERNET: ggr at qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia          VOICE:  +61-2-9817 4188   FAX: +61-2-9817 5199
Level 3, 230 Victoria Road,                http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/
Gladesville NSW 2111    232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F  E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C




From Shyoba22 at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 06:28:23 2001
From: Shyoba22 at aol.com (Shyoba22 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 09:28:23 EST
Subject: kid porn
Message-ID: <da.3d9afa5.27f1fd87@aol.com>

am intersted in how to access sites involving very young girls in sex acts 
w/adults.  Not willing to pay $$$$exhorbitant.....thanx
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From declan at well.com  Tue Mar 27 07:25:00 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:25:00 -0500
Subject: Idiot Oregon cops arrest wrong people
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010327102409.02000930@mail.well.com>



http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/01/03/metrowest/w2_sher26.frame
Sheriff's office pays for errors
2001-03-27 07:07:46

Sheriff's office pays for errors Sheriff Jim Spinden says the $258,000
Washington County has paid in claims for police errors since 1998 is
reasonable Monday, March 26, 2001
______________________________________________________________________

By Alex Pulaski of The Oregonian staff

HILLSBORO -- On Dec. 11, 1998, Washington County sheriff's deputies 
arrested Kevin Schuh on a probation violation. The man they were looking 
for was Kevin Dean Schuch. The man they arrested was Kevin Lee Schuh. Even 
though the man
in custody showed identification indicating he had a different name, 
address, birth date, Social Security number, driver's license, weight, 
height and hair color from the wanted man, he was booked into jail. Eight 
months later, the county paid for the mistake: Kevin Lee Schuh and his 
attorney got a check for $1,773. Schuh's case is not unique.

[...]




From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Mar 27 07:36:47 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:36:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: kid porn 
Message-ID: <200103271536.KAA18122@www2.aa.psiweb.com>


Shyoba22 at aol.com spurted:
#   I am intersted in how to access sites involving very young girls in
#   sex acts w/adults.  Not willing to pay $$$$exhorbitant.....thanx

Well, according to The News, reporting on the shutting down
of some Russian sites for KP: the U.S. government estimates
there are 100,000 WWW sites that are involved or related to KP.

Are you sure you can't find any?

----

Try "child pornography" (with the double quotes) at Google.

You'll see all sorts of sites for reporting KP.

Copy one or more of them, such as www.missingkids.com, into
your own new "reporting" site. You'll get direct tips as
to where KP is.

----

And, of course, there's Usenet.




From declan at well.com  Tue Mar 27 07:44:18 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:44:18 -0500
Subject: NIST Symmetric Key Block Cipher Algorithms workshop
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010327104336.020018f0@mail.well.com>



http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2001_register&docid=01-7497-filed

[Federal Register: March 27, 2001 (Volume 66, Number 59)]
[Notices]
[Page 16658-16659]
 From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr27mr01-38]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

National Institute of Standards and Technology


Public Meeting Announcing a Workshop for the Analysis of Modes of
Operation for Symmetric Key Block Cipher Algorithms

AGENCY: National Institute of Standards and Technology, Commerce.

ACTION: Notice of public workshop.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
announces a workshop on modes of operation for securing data using
symmetric key block cipher algorithms, such as the algorithm specified
in the draft Advanced Encryption Standard (AES). Interested parties may
suggest ideas or submit papers for discussion at the workshop,
including proposals of modes of operation, to the address below.

DATES: The Second Modes of Operation Workshop will be held on August
24, 2001, from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.

ADDRESSES: The workshop will be held at the Holiday Inn Santa Barbara,
5650 Calle Real, Goleta, California. Details regarding workshop
registration will be available at the modes home page: http://
csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/modes/. Suggestions, questions, comments
or submissions should be sent to Modes of Operation Workshop, Attn:
Elaine Barker, NIST, 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8930, Gaithersburg, MD
20899-8930, or to EncryptionModes at nist.gov.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: For further information, contact
EncryptionModes at nist.gov or one of the following: Elaine Barker, NIST,
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8930, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8930; telephone
301-975-2911; fax 301-948-1233 or via e-mail at Elaine.barker at nist.gov;
or Morris Dworkin 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8930, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-
8930; telephone 301-975-2354; fax 301-948-1233; or via e-mail at
morris.dworkin at nist.gov.

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: Block ciphers can be used as building blocks
for encryption modes and for other modes for securing data. For
example, block ciphers can be used in the construction of message
authentication codes, hash algorithms, and random bit generators. With
the advent of new block ciphers, such as the AES, there is an
opportunity to update such modes of operation for current and future
applications and technology.
     The purpose of this Federal Register notice is to announce a
workshop on modes of operation for securing data using symmetric key
block cipher algorithms, such as the algorithm specified in the draft
Advanced Encryption Standard (AES). Prior to the workshop, suggestions
and submissions from the public to aid NIST in planning an appropriate
workshop and facilitate the comparison and analysis of block cipher
modes of operation are welcome. The workshop will aid NIST in
developing a standard or guideline that is secure and responsive to the
needs of government, industry, and the public. NIST will consider for
discussion at the workshop, at a minimum, the modes that were proposed
at the October 20, 2000 public workshop on this topic. These are
available at the modes home page, and NIST encourages public analysis
of these modes.
     The workshop may also consider other existing modes or their
generalizations, or other modes that are proposed in comments and
papers. It will be helpful to receive analysis and proposals for
variations of counter mode, arising from alternative methods for
prescribing the generation of counters. All suggestions received will
be publicly available at the modes home page.
     In order to encourage a common framework for comparison, a workshop
approach to evaluate and analysis is available on the modes home page.
NIST believes that participants in the upcoming workshop would be
interested in comments that include statements regarding the
intellectual property and/or licensing requirements of any proposed
modes. Test vectors will also be useful, to provide analyzers of the
modes a means to check the validity of their implementations. Fuller
descriptions are available at the modes web site.
     The results of the workshop will aid NIST's efforts to develop a
complete ``suite'' of modes of operation from which individual modes
can be selected to fit the needs of a wide range of applications and
environments. The recommended modes are expected to support the
eventual Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) and other block ciphers.
     Submissions for discussion at the workshop should be made early
enough to provide time to prepare the meeting agenda. Papers proposing
new modes of operation are requested as soon as possible, to provide
time for the analysis of the new proposals.

     Authority: NIST's activities to develop computer security
standards to protect sensitive (unclassified) systems are undertaken
pursuant to specific responsibilities assigned to NIST in section

[[Page 16659]]

5131 of the Information Technology Management Reform Act of 1996
(P.L. 104-106), the Computer Security Act of 1987 (Pub. L. 100-235),
and Appendix III to Office of Business Management Circular A-130.

     Dated: March 19, 2001.
Karen Brown,
Acting Director, NIST.





From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Mar 27 09:11:26 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 11:11:26 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Congressman Boucher Responds
Message-ID: <3AC0C9BE.E4B83228@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/interviews/01/03/27/1432221.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Mar 27 08:34:00 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 11:34:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: NIST Symmetric Key Block Cipher Algorithms workshop
Message-ID: <200103271634.LAA23116@www2.aa.psiweb.com>


Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> advertised:
#
#    http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2001_register&docid=01-7497-filed

Really, Declan.

First, there was waiting for DoubleClick at your site.

Now, you are releasing articles via an URL at another
"DoubleClick" type site, akamaitech.net?

----

#  NIST believes that participants in the upcoming workshop would 
#  be interested in comments that include statements regarding the 
#  intellectual property and/or licensing requirements of any 
#  proposed modes.

Why have a requirement, beyond making standards?

----

Is that what 'NIST' stands for these days?

http://ww1.access.gpo.gov/GPOAccess/sitesearch/congress/house/intel/ic21/ic21010.html
#    
#    Various examples of surge capability are available in this
#    area.  One example is the deployment of National Intelligence
#    Support Teams (NIST) to "forward" areas in order to augment
#    military capabilities, as well as to assist theater commanders in
#    understanding what "national" systems can provide and how they can
#    be tasked.  The response to NIST deployments has been
#    overwhelmingly positive.  That NIST in essence provides a type of
#    synergistic, horizontal approach to collection, suggests that such
#    an approach could be beneficial on a larger, Community scale.




From declan at well.com  Tue Mar 27 09:25:15 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:25:15 -0500
Subject: NIST Symmetric Key Block Cipher Algorithms workshop
In-Reply-To: <200103271634.LAA23116@www2.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:34:00AM -0500
References: <200103271634.LAA23116@www2.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <20010327122515.A19814@cluebot.com>


In this case, I forwarded a URL as I received it. The Akami URL did
not include an ad, and it probably loads faster than the frequently-
overloaded GPO site. So what the hell are you complaining about?

Wired may not may not be using DoubleClick for ads. Not my concern;
I presume you can always use lynx if you want.

-Declan

On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:34:00AM -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote:
> Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> advertised:
> #
> #    http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2001_register&docid=01-7497-filed
> 
> Really, Declan.
> 
> First, there was waiting for DoubleClick at your site.
> 
> Now, you are releasing articles via an URL at another
> "DoubleClick" type site, akamaitech.net?
> 
> ----
> 
> #  NIST believes that participants in the upcoming workshop would 
> #  be interested in comments that include statements regarding the 
> #  intellectual property and/or licensing requirements of any 
> #  proposed modes.
> 
> Why have a requirement, beyond making standards?
> 
> ----
> 
> Is that what 'NIST' stands for these days?
> 
> http://ww1.access.gpo.gov/GPOAccess/sitesearch/congress/house/intel/ic21/ic21010.html
> #    
> #    Various examples of surge capability are available in this
> #    area.  One example is the deployment of National Intelligence
> #    Support Teams (NIST) to "forward" areas in order to augment
> #    military capabilities, as well as to assist theater commanders in
> #    understanding what "national" systems can provide and how they can
> #    be tasked.  The response to NIST deployments has been
> #    overwhelmingly positive.  That NIST in essence provides a type of
> #    synergistic, horizontal approach to collection, suggests that such
> #    an approach could be beneficial on a larger, Community scale.
> 




From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Mar 27 10:18:17 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:18:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CNN.com - Scientist: 2 gunmen involved in JFK assassination - March 26, 2000
Message-ID: <200103271818.NAA25509@www8.aa.psiweb.com>


Choate self-important msg redacted.

I give up, asshole, what does that story
have to do with the cypherpunk lists?

Or are you now down to claiming you can post
any damn thing because otherwise you are being
censored?




From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Mar 27 11:52:21 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:52:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: NIST Symmetric Key Block Cipher Algorithms workshop
Message-ID: <200103271952.OAA11008@www5.aa.psiweb.com>


Declan wrote but didn't get paid for:
#  Wired may or not may not be using DoubleClick for ads.
#  Not my concern; I presume you can always use lynx if you want.

Your site isn't wired.com. Here's a reminder:

#    From: George at orwellian.org
#    To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
#    Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 16:32PM EST
#    Subject: John Ashcroft's huge erect penis
#    
#    Hey, Declan... I just love waiting for doubleclick.net when
#    pulling up Politech pages. Word. Paid. Declan.
#    
#    From ghoulies and ghosties, longleggety beasties,
#    and things that click slow in the night.

Your Politech was delayed from delivering pages
because it was stuck waiting for doubleclick.net.

Not the coolest thing.

Declan wrote but didn't get paid for:
#    In this case, I forwarded a URL as I received it. The Akami URL 
#    did not include an ad, and it probably loads faster than the 
#    frequently- overloaded GPO site. So what the hell are you 
#    complaining about?

Technically you're right. It was just slightly unnerving
to think you might have descended further down the road
of selling out to the click recording factories. The URL
was on their system. But you're right, no ad or WWW bugs.




From john.hazlewood at thestoremaker.net  Tue Mar 27 16:11:05 2001
From: john.hazlewood at thestoremaker.net (John Hazlewood)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:11:05 -0800
Subject: Branded/Private Label Realtime Internet Travel Booking Engine
Message-ID: <200103280011.QAA07223@ecotone.toad.com>

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URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/20010327/06024531/attachment.ksh>

From declan at well.com  Tue Mar 27 13:28:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:28:39 -0500
Subject: NIST Symmetric Key Block Cipher Algorithms workshop
In-Reply-To: <200103271952.OAA11008@www5.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:52:21PM -0500
References: <200103271952.OAA11008@www5.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <20010327162839.A25222@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:52:21PM -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote:
> Declan wrote but didn't get paid for:
> #  Wired may or not may not be using DoubleClick for ads.
> #  Not my concern; I presume you can always use lynx if you want.
> 
> Your site isn't wired.com. Here's a reminder:

Fair point. I don't recall seeing the original message. Cypherpunks
nodes are flaky enough, and I don't read all messages.

In any case, I throw some ads up on politechbot.com to (partly) cover
server costs. Those are not Doubleclick ads, and I have never done so.
You can subscribe to the mailing list if you like and avoid the ads.

-Declan




From info at giganetstore.com  Tue Mar 27 09:53:01 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:53:01 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?1=BA_Anivers=E1rio=2C_Obrigado?=
Message-ID: <02df40253171b31WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Lisboa, 27 de Março de 2001 
Estimado Cliente, 
A giganetstore.com faz amanhã um ano de actividade comercial. Queremos
agradecer-lhe o facto de ser nosso cliente e de ter utilizado os nossos
serviços ao longo deste primeiro ano de actividade. 
Durante este período tivemos oportunidade de contribuir de forma
significativa, e com a sua ajuda, para o desenvolvimento de Comércio
Electrónico em Portugal. 
Ao longo deste primeiro ano tivemos mais de 5500 encomendas, entregamos
os produtos em média 4,5 dias após a encomenda. Atingimos uma base de
mais de 12.000 clientes registados que utilizam os nossos serviços para
compras, recolhem informação sobre preços, características de produtos e
mantém-se informados sobre as nossas promoções. 
A sua contribuição foi decisiva para que fossem desenvolvidos novos
serviços e funcionalidade e corrigidos procedimentos que se revelaram
desajustados. 
Durante este segundo ano de actividade iremos continuar a trabalhar para
tornar as compras mais simples, mais rápidas, com maior variedade e aos
custos mais baixos do mercado. Decidimos também abrir nossa plataforma
de Comércio Electrónico a outros comerciantes devidamente certificados
no sentido de tornar o destino de compras www.giganetstore.com
<http://www.giganetstore.com/>  cada vez mais atractivo, o que irá
acontecer no segundo semestre deste ano. 
O que alcançamos até agora é no entanto apenas um primeiro passo num
caminho que estimamos que seja longo e que traga cada vez mais vantagens
aos nossos clientes impondo o nosso modelo de negócio como um modelo
ganhador para si, para os nossos trabalhadores e para os nossos
accionistas. 
Para tal contamos consigo, quer fazendo a giganetstore.com como o seu
site de referência para as compras on-line, quer através das sugestões e
criticas para melhorarmos todos os dias o nosso serviço e o valor que
lhe oferecemos, quer através da explicação desta nova forma de comprar
aos seus amigos e familiares. 
Acreditamos que a revolução ainda só agora começou, que as compras via
electrónica podem trazer mais valor e maior comodidade respeitando o seu
recurso mais importante o seu tempo e o uso que faz dele, e que só com
clientes exigentes podemos ser os melhores. 
Para comemorar este dia a www.giganetstore.com
<http://www.giganetstore.com/>  criou uma promoção especial válida
apenas por 24 horas em que irá atribuir um desconto de 5% a todas as
encomendas entradas nos dias 27 e 28 de Março de 2001, para tal deverá
utilizar o seguinte código no processo de confirmação da sua encomenda
200128032803 . 
Em nome de toda a equipe da giganetstore.com quero mais uma vez
agradecer-lhe as visitas e compras que fez durante este primeiro ano.
: - ) 

Miguel Dias de Carvalho
( Administrador Delegado)
<http://www.giganetstore.com/> 
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From choreography at london.com  Tue Mar 27 17:15:09 2001
From: choreography at london.com (William Morris Jr)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 20:15:09 -0500 (EST)
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From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar 27 21:24:27 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [9fans] Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010327232309.14587a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



FYI

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:59:21 -0500
From: rob pike <rob at plan9.bell-labs.com>
Reply-To: 9fans at cse.psu.edu
To: 9fans at cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Update

An update of the 3rd release is now available at
	http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9
This is likely to be the last shipment using the original protocol;
the next release will probably be called the 4th edition and will use
the new version of 9P.

Note:
	If you installed Plan 9 between October 29, 2000 and November 29,
	2000, you need to grab a new /wrap/plan9/971556349/md5sum file before
	installing the update.  The update page has details.

Today's update is substantially larger than previous ones, but there
are substantially more things updated....

There are a number of new things, including:

- Support for Lucent Orinoco (Wavelan) cards (thanks to Francisco
	Ballesteros).
- Support for the Netgear GA620 gigabit Ethernet cards.
- A much faster VNC viewer, vncviewer(1).
- A preliminary kernel for the Compaq iPAQ h3650 and h3630, also known
	as the `bitsy'; look in /sys/src/9/bitsy.  Associated with this are
	a variety of new pieces including a `scribble' library for character
	recognition and some tools; see scribble(2) and bitsyload(1).
- A new compression/decompression library, flate(2).
- A new library for grouped allocation, bin(2), plus a per-process
	allocator for threaded programs, privalloc(2).
- A variety of tweaks to libc including case-insensitive string
	matching and pread and pwrite system calls (read and write with
	the file offset in the call rather than the fd).
- Multiple boot configurations in plan9.ini(8).
- Partial support of X.509 certificates.
- Partial support of PNG images.
- New Acme interfaces for news and wiki.
- Support for rc(1)-style quoted strings in the C library, quote(2).
	This is the harbinger of future things, including:
- A preliminary library of graphic controls (widgets);
	see control(2).

There are plenty of bugs fixed, too.

Kernel and networking fixes include:

- Better timesync algorithms (no longer requiring floating point).
- TCP/IP:
	- No longer loses queued bytes when shutting down a connection.
	- Too aggressive rexmits removed.
	- Reads now return as much data as possible instead of just
	    the next segment's worth.
- ip/dhcpd:
	- copy the contents of the gateway field from BOOTP/DHCP requests to replies
	- deal with requests containing huge leases
	- some protection against systems that don't give up their leases when
	  they run out.
- Graphics:
	- important fixes to alpha blending and allocation of images.
	- better conversion of true color to mapped images (rgb2cmap).
- Libmp + libsec completely replace libcrypt.
	- Also assembly routines for various architectures speed things up.

And of course zillions of other application and library fixes and
enhancements.

-rob





From LizardMarketing at toad.com  Tue Mar 27 23:24:33 2001
From: LizardMarketing at toad.com (LizardMarketing at toad.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:33
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333892.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From LizardMarketing at ak47.algebra.com  Tue Mar 27 23:24:34 2001
From: LizardMarketing at ak47.algebra.com (LizardMarketing at ak47.algebra.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:34
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333696.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From LizardMarketing at ak47.algebra.com  Tue Mar 27 23:24:35 2001
From: LizardMarketing at ak47.algebra.com (LizardMarketing at ak47.algebra.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:35
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333729.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From LizardMarketing at cyberpass.net  Tue Mar 27 23:24:36 2001
From: LizardMarketing at cyberpass.net (LizardMarketing at cyberpass.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:36
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333201.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From LizardMarketing at ssz.com  Tue Mar 27 23:24:42 2001
From: LizardMarketing at ssz.com (LizardMarketing at ssz.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:42
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333706.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From LizardMarketing at hq.pro-ns.net  Tue Mar 27 23:24:42 2001
From: LizardMarketing at hq.pro-ns.net (LizardMarketing at hq.pro-ns.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:42
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333505.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From LizardMarketing at sirius.infonex.com  Tue Mar 27 23:24:47 2001
From: LizardMarketing at sirius.infonex.com (LizardMarketing at sirius.infonex.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:47
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333525.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From LizardMarketing at minder.net  Tue Mar 27 23:24:49 2001
From: LizardMarketing at minder.net (LizardMarketing at minder.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:49
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333224.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From LizardMarketing at sirius.infonex.com  Tue Mar 27 23:24:52 2001
From: LizardMarketing at sirius.infonex.com (LizardMarketing at sirius.infonex.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:52
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333592.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From LizardMarketing at ssz.com  Tue Mar 27 23:24:54 2001
From: LizardMarketing at ssz.com (LizardMarketing at ssz.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:54
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333924.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From LizardMarketing at toad.com  Tue Mar 27 23:24:55 2001
From: LizardMarketing at toad.com (LizardMarketing at toad.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:24:55
Subject: Give your sales a boost!
Message-ID: <200103272333845.SM00144@mail.lizardmarketing.com>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Mar 27 21:28:14 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:28:14 -0600
Subject: Zone On the Range
Message-ID: <3AC1766E.7117DD59@ssz.com>


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/032601/golfcourse_kehnemui_shuster.sml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Mar 27 21:54:39 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:54:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Slashdot | The Plotter Thickens With Volumetric 3-D Display
In-Reply-To: <3AC171D6.E5C41F1B@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103272353420.7996-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



Hey Jim, why don't you just forward the whole damn site?



On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:08:38 -0600
> From: Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com>
> Reply-To: sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com
> To: hell at einstein.ssz.com, sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com,
>      hangar18 at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Slashdot | The Plotter Thickens With Volumetric 3-D Display
> 
> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/27/2213221.shtml
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From reports at ipoexpressemail.com  Wed Mar 28 01:17:00 2001
From: reports at ipoexpressemail.com (EDGAR Online)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:17:00 -0800
Subject: IPO Express: Daily News 03/27/01
Message-ID: <200103280917.BAA00685@mailhost.ostman.com>


******************************************************************************
        This IPO Express report is provided by EDGAR Online, sent to you as
a subscriber to EDGAR Online Premium. If you wish to discontinue receiving
reports or wish to change your email options, go to:

         http://www.edgar-online.com/auth/updateinfo.asp
******************************************************************************

IPO NEWS

* Agere Systems priced at $6 for trading next day. [NYSE:AGR, AGRA]
* Alliance Imaging Inc  was withdrawn. [NYSE:-TBA-]
* Alliance Imaging Inc is being withdrawn due to market conditions. [NYSE:-TBA-]
* BRIAZZ Inc  set its price to $8-$12 and  set its number of shares to 2,000,000. [NASDAQ:BRZZ]
* Odyssey Re Holdings Corp filed for IPO. [NYSE:ORH]
* Wildblue Communications Inc  was withdrawn. [NASDAQ:WBLU]
* Wildblue Communications Inc is being withdrawn due to market conditions. [NASDAQ:WBLU]

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/iponews.asp for more news.

/--------------ADVERTISEMENT----------------\
Purchase Business/Credit Reports from Dun & Bradstreet on over 11 million
U.S. businesses. Click on the "Resources" link when you look up SEC filings
for any public company, or search by company name and state at
http://www.edgar.telebase.com.
\-------------------------------------------/

EXPECTED PRICINGS

* PETSVETSANDYOU.COM              MAR28 - CLOSING      [-TBA-:-TBA-]
* BELLACASA PRODUCTIONS INC       MAR30 - CLOSING      [NASDAQ:BCSA]
* K-1 BUILDERS INC                MAR30 - CLOSING      [OTCBB:-TBA-]
* KINGDOM VISION NETWORK INC      MAR30 - CLOSING      [OTCBB:-TBA-]
* LORELEI CORP                    MAR30 - CLOSING      [N/A:N/A]
* ONEDENTIST RESOURCES INC        MAR30 - CLOSING      [OTCBB:WEBD]
* Q POWER INC                     MAR30 - CLOSING      [OTCBB:-TBA-]
* VENTURELIST.COM INC             MAR30                [OTCBB:-TBA-]
* SELECT MEDICAL CORP             APR2-3               [NASDAQ:SLMC]

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/upcoming.asp for more expected pricings.

POPULAR IPO COMPANIES

* AGERE SYSTEMS                  [P]   [NYSE:AGR, AGRA]
* THE SMITH & WOLLENSKY RESTAURANT GROUP INC       [NASDAQ:SWRG]
* AQUILA ENERGY CORP                   [NYSE:ILA]
* RELIANT RESOURCES INC                [NYSE:RRI]
* VERISITY LTD                   [P]   [NASDAQ:VRST]
* KRAFT FOODS INC                      [NYSE:KFT]
* P&L COAL HOLDINGS CORP               [NYSE:BTU]
* DIGITALCONVERGENCE.COM INC           [NASDAQ:DGTL]
* LOUDCLOUD INC                  [P]   [NASDAQ:LDCL]
* RED BELL BREWING CO                  [OTCBB:RDBL]

[P] Denotes that the company is already priced.

SHORT-TERM LOCKUP EXPIRATIONS

Company                                              Priced Days   Expires
GENOMICA CORP (GNOM)                                9/28/00  180  3/27/01
PROTON ENERGY SYSTEMS INC (PRTN)                    9/28/00  180  3/27/01
@ROAD INC  (ARDI)                                   9/28/00  180  3/27/01
SIMPLE TECHNOLOGY INC (STEC)                        9/28/00  180  3/27/01
WILSON GREATBATCH TECHNOLOGIES INC (GB)             9/28/00  180  3/27/01
HEAD NV (HED)                                       9/28/00  180  3/27/01
CIPHERGEN BIOSYSTEMS INC (CIPH)                     9/28/00  180  3/27/01
ELASTIC NETWORKS INC (ELAS)                         9/29/00  180  3/28/01
DOCENT INC (DCNT)                                   9/29/00  180  3/28/01
E-CENTIVES INC (ECEN)                               10/2/00  180  3/31/01
IMAGEWARE SYSTEMS INC (IWU, IW, IWWS)               3/31/00  365  3/31/01
INFORMAX INC (INMX)                                 10/2/00  180  3/31/01
OPLINK COMMUNICATIONS INC (OPLK)                    10/3/00  180   4/1/01
ADVANCED SWITCHING COMMUNICATIONS INC (ASCX)        10/4/00  180   4/2/01
KOSAN BIOSCIENCES INC (KOSN)                        10/4/00  180   4/2/01
COACH INC (COH)                                     10/4/00  180   4/2/01
TNPC INC  (NPW)                                     10/4/00  180   4/2/01
ASIA GLOBAL CROSSING (AGCX)                         10/6/00  180   4/4/01
THERMOELASTIC TECHNOLOGIES INC  (TMRO)              10/9/00  180   4/7/01
WATSON WYATT & COMPANY HOLDINGS (WW)               10/10/00  180   4/8/01
W-H ENERGY SERVICES INC  (WHES)                    10/10/00  180   4/8/01
POZEN INC (POZN)                                   10/10/00  180   4/8/01
INTROGEN THERAPEUTICS INC (INGN)                   10/11/00  180   4/9/01
SYNPLICITY INC (SYNP)                              10/12/00  180  4/10/01
SINOPEC  (SNP)                                     10/12/00  180  4/10/01

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/lockup.asp for more lockups.

SHORT-TERM QUIET PERIOD EXPIRATIONS

Company                                                 IPO   Expires
AFC ENTERPRISES INC (AFCE)                           3/2/01  3/27/01
STELMAR SHIPPING (SJH)                               3/6/01  3/31/01
SEATTLE GENETICS INC (SGEN)                          3/7/01   4/1/01
ENCORE ACQUISITION CO (EAC)                          3/9/01   4/3/01
LOUDCLOUD INC (LDCL)                                 3/9/01   4/3/01
SUREBEAM CORP (SURE)                                3/16/01  4/10/01

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/quiet.asp for more expirations.

Data and information is provided for informational purposes only, and is
not intended for trading purposes.  Neither EDGAR Online nor any of its content
providers shall be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for
any actions taken in reliance thereon.  By accessing the IPO Express site,
the user agrees not to redistribute the information found therein.

-----ADVERTISEMENT----------------------
Purchase Business/Credit Reports from Dun & Bradstreet on over 11 million
U.S. businesses. Click on the "Resources" link when you look up SEC filings
for any public company, or search by company name and state at
http://www.edgar.telebase.com.
----------------------------------------




From adam at cypherspace.org  Tue Mar 27 22:51:34 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 02:51:34 -0400
Subject: Zone On the Range
In-Reply-To: <3AC1766E.7117DD59@ssz.com>; from Jim Choate on Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:28:14PM -0600
References: <3AC1766E.7117DD59@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010328025134.A9336@cypherpunks.ai>


This is cryptic -- how do I know what this link will be about from your
subject line.  Can't you quote as ascii the first paragraph, or write your
own summary, or something?

If you can't be bothered to do that, the reference is not useful; it's just
a random pointer.  Historically most of them are not even remotely crypto
related.

I asked politely in private email if you would consider providing summaries. 
I received no reply.  If you aren't going to provide summaries and
meaningful subject lines, I politely ask that you stop sending the list
random URLs.

Adam

On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:28:14PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/032601/golfcourse_kehnemui_shuster.sml




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 05:23:42 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 07:23:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Zone On the Range
In-Reply-To: <20010328025134.A9336@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328072257.14587d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Adam Back wrote:

> This is cryptic 

Adam made a funny. You hay have a future as a comic if crypto ever falls
flat.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 05:36:08 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 07:36:08 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Coming Soon: Burn Proof CDs
Message-ID: <3AC1E8C8.99228A6A@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/27/2339254.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 08:10:31 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:10:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <3AC1B457.CEE827C0@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20010328161031.82207.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> wrote:

> Physical anonymity is getting harder, but it's less hard in big cities.
> There are a lot of anonymous people in cities. Those guys you see
> sitting on the side of the road asking for money, they're anonymous. As
> far as you're concerned anyway. Lost in the city. So just walk into the

(1)

Maybe those guys asking for money should get into anonymizing business:

For $10 go to the internet cafe and send the given message ? You meet them
on the camera-less part of the street. They don't know who you are, but their
reputation is maintained on the Freedom net. They are identified by numbers
on their shopping carts.

(2)

Connect through a cash-prepaid anon cellphone (yes, it can be done). The
problem
is the ISP account, those will need to be pooled.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 08:19:40 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:19:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010326095051.00a44810@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20010328161940.84307.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Bill Stewart <bill.stewart at pobox.com> wrote:
> It's been 30 years since I read The Time Machine,
> but didn't the Eloi only have 1 L in their name?

Yeah, I know. Got pissed off after finding out that *ALL* fictious and
real names are taken.

> If you care, find an anonymizer to read your webmail through.

There is no anonymizer/webmail combination that works, AFAIK. The barrier
are the cookies. They're not stoopid.

> On the other hand, if your IP address is a
> NAT box on a DSL line connected to Pac Bell Internet,
> at a chain of coffeeshops staffed by non-technical baristas,
>          "I don't know how the router thing works.  Want donuts?"


I see the future ... 2002: new law requires taking photo ID when using
public 'net terminals. Something to do with children, genitals and
terrorists. Better yet, the whole session will be videotaped.
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text




From ericm at lne.com  Wed Mar 28 08:32:59 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:32:59 -0800
Subject: Zone On the Range
In-Reply-To: <20010328025134.A9336@cypherpunks.ai>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:51:34AM -0400
References: <3AC1766E.7117DD59@ssz.com> <20010328025134.A9336@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <20010328083259.A10992@slack.lne.com>


On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:51:34AM -0400, Adam Back wrote:
> This is cryptic -- how do I know what this link will be about from your
> subject line.  Can't you quote as ascii the first paragraph, or write your
> own summary, or something?
> 
> If you can't be bothered to do that, the reference is not useful; it's just
> a random pointer.  Historically most of them are not even remotely crypto
> related.
> 
> I asked politely in private email if you would consider providing summaries. 
> I received no reply.  If you aren't going to provide summaries and
> meaningful subject lines, I politely ask that you stop sending the list
> random URLs.
> 
> Adam


Asking Jim to make his posts "meaningful" doesn't do anything other
than annoy Jim and add to the clutter on the list.  If readers do
not find Jim's posts worth reading, then they should not waste their
time reading them.

Below is a procmail script fragment to filter out Jim's cypherpunks posts
into a seperate folder without affecting any other mail he might send to
the recipient.  If you wanted you could get fancier and also filter on
"slashdot" in the mail body.


# mailing lists:
:0
* ^From.*owner-cypherpunks at .*
{
	:0:
	* (^From:.*ravage at .*\.ssz\.com.*|\
	^From:.*ravage at ssz\.com.*)
	choate

	# default is read:
	:0:
	cypherspool
}




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 28 08:38:20 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:38:20 -0800
Subject: Zone On the Range
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC58@exna07.securitydynam ics.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFGEFCDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Peter wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that Jim is
> unable to see things from another's
> viewpoint, and so regards it a bad trade
> to spend 30 seconds of his own time to
> save man-hours of wasted effort by his
> readers.

I'm torn between this "social retardation" explanation and the feeling that
Jim is obnoxious simply to get attention.  In either case, his social skills
certainly are INCHOATE (look it up, Jim).  I used to be pissed off by the
guy.  Now, I mostly just feel pity for him.

> The result, of course, is that he becomes
> progressively less effective at
> communication, as more and more people
> tune him out due to the low value of his
> postings.

Yup, I don't have a kill fill, per se, but I've come to expect a very low
level of Cypherpunk relevance from Jim's random URLs as well as extremely
poor analytical skills when he does write something.  Jim either says too
little or way to much--and it's usually garbage.  I delete 95% of his stuff
without reading it.


 S a n d y
_____________________________________________________________

If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can’t it be changed
by Constitutional amendment since it’s the primary authority?

                           W         W
                           \*\     /*/
   The Road Kill Group     |*|     |*|
                          /*////|\\\\*\ |\-
                         (|||||||||||||\((x)\
                   -======-------------||---:>
                         (|||||||||||||/((x)/
                          \*\\\\|////*/ |/-
                           |*|     |*|
                           /*/     \*\
                           M         M




From bill at scannell.org  Wed Mar 28 06:40:40 2001
From: bill at scannell.org (Bill Scannell)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:40:40 -0600
Subject: Slashchoate | Spam Prince URLs Himself Into Killfile
In-Reply-To: <3AC1E8C8.99228A6A@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <B6E75407.9CFE%bill@scannell.org>


http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=Stop+%22Jim+Choate
%22+Spam



ø

Committing random acts of journalism and PR since 1987

ø




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Mar 28 09:31:04 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:31:04 -0800
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <3AC1B457.CEE827C0@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010326095051.00a44810@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010328093104.0080d930@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:52 AM 3/28/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
>Any Internet Cafe - well any shop with any expensive goods in it these
>days - is going to have TV cameras. Probably a bad place to be for
>anonymity, if what you are doing is serious enough to expect
>security-service or serious police reaction. If they can't trace your
>cash they might be able to trace your picture. 

If you make a heavy threat, they'll seize the videotapes of nearby
security cameras ---you didn't stop for gas, did you?

Of course, there will be cameras on the Olympic internet kiosks for sure.
That Orwellian football game face-scanning was only a warmup.




.......




From bill at scannell.org  Wed Mar 28 07:40:49 2001
From: bill at scannell.org (Bill Scannell)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:40:49 -0600
Subject: Slashchoate | Spam Prince URLs Himself Into Killfile
In-Reply-To: <3AC1E8C8.99228A6A@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <B6E76220.9D06%bill@scannell.org>


http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=Stop+%22Jim+Choate
%22+Spam



ø

Committing random acts of journalism and PR since 1987

Ø




From BF at farc.org  Wed Mar 28 10:20:26 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:20:26 -0800
Subject: you may only speak what the RIAA allows
Message-ID: <3AC22B6A.A0C41C6C@farc.org>


The RIAA has asked the court to order Napster to use
              a "filter in" method, which would allow songs that
              Napster is authorised to distribute to be placed on its
              system, rather than blocking the swapping of
              copyrighted music placed on its service.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1246000/1246924.stm




From BF at farc.org  Wed Mar 28 10:23:10 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:23:10 -0800
Subject: RIAA takes over FCC
Message-ID: <3AC22C0E.6A8AD7B6@farc.org>


Napster, the song swapping service, is being sued for
              millions of dollars by the producers of the prestigious
              awards show, the Grammys.

              The National Academy of Recordings Arts and
              Sciences (NARAS) says the service enabled users to
              trade copyrighted music files from the awards show.

              Within hours of the awards being handed out, music
              files of performances from the show, including Sir
              Elton John's controversial duet with Eminem, could be
              downloaded via Napster.

'Scuse me, mofo, you broadcast your shit in our aether, we can
tape it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1206000/1206863.stm




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Mar 28 07:30:18 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:30:18 -0500
Subject: Zone On the Range
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC58@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


Jim's been pinged on this many, many times. He used to include
tens of kilobytes of HTML pages with his postings, but at least he's 
gotten over that.

I've come to the conclusion that Jim is unable to see things
from another's viewpoint, and so regards it a bad trade to spend
30 seconds of his own time to save man-hours of wasted effort
by his readers.

The result, of course, is that he becomes progressively less effective
at communication, as more and more people tune him out due to
the low value of his postings.

Adam: Jim regards unsolicited private email as a personal affront,
and gets crabby about it. 

Peter Trei
#include <std.disclaimer> 

"J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org> writes:
>Hey Jim, why don't you just forward the whole damn site?

> Adam Back[SMTP:adam at cypherspace.org] writes:
> 
> This is cryptic -- how do I know what this link will be about from your
> subject line.  Can't you quote as ascii the first paragraph, or write your
> own summary, or something?
> 
> If you can't be bothered to do that, the reference is not useful; it's
> just
> a random pointer.  Historically most of them are not even remotely crypto
> related.
> 
> I asked politely in private email if you would consider providing
> summaries. 
> I received no reply.  If you aren't going to provide summaries and
> meaningful subject lines, I politely ask that you stop sending the list
> random URLs.
> 
> Adam
> 
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:28:14PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > http://www.foxnews.com/politics/032601/golfcourse_kehnemui_shuster.sml




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Mar 28 07:30:18 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:30:18 -0500
Subject: Zone On the Range
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC58@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


Jim's been pinged on this many, many times. He used to include
tens of kilobytes of HTML pages with his postings, but at least he's 
gotten over that.

I've come to the conclusion that Jim is unable to see things
from another's viewpoint, and so regards it a bad trade to spend
30 seconds of his own time to save man-hours of wasted effort
by his readers.

The result, of course, is that he becomes progressively less effective
at communication, as more and more people tune him out due to
the low value of his postings.

Adam: Jim regards unsolicited private email as a personal affront,
and gets crabby about it. 

Peter Trei
#include <std.disclaimer> 

"J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org> writes:
>Hey Jim, why don't you just forward the whole damn site?

> Adam Back[SMTP:adam at cypherspace.org] writes:
> 
> This is cryptic -- how do I know what this link will be about from your
> subject line.  Can't you quote as ascii the first paragraph, or write your
> own summary, or something?
> 
> If you can't be bothered to do that, the reference is not useful; it's
> just
> a random pointer.  Historically most of them are not even remotely crypto
> related.
> 
> I asked politely in private email if you would consider providing
> summaries. 
> I received no reply.  If you aren't going to provide summaries and
> meaningful subject lines, I politely ask that you stop sending the list
> random URLs.
> 
> Adam
> 
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:28:14PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > http://www.foxnews.com/politics/032601/golfcourse_kehnemui_shuster.sml
> 




From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 07:52:16 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:52:16 -0500
Subject: Congress in action
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010328105204.02112420@mail.well.com>



HOUSE ENERGY AND COMMERCE COMMITTEE Human Cloning Oversight and 
Investigations Subcommittee hearing on "Issues Raised by Human Cloning 
Research." Location: 2123 Rayburn House Office Building. 12 noon Contact: 
202-225-2927 http://www.house.gov/commerce





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Mar 28 01:52:24 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:52:24 +0100
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010326095051.00a44810@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3AC1B457.CEE827C0@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Bill Stewart wrote:
 
> I'm reading off-line, but the IP address is probably that of
> the machine at the internet cafe you're using -
> depending on how organized the cafe and someone tracing you are,
> they may be able to find you quickly, or not.
> For instance, if you're at joesinternetcafe.com,
> Joe's Internet Cafe, 1234 5th street, San Francisco,
> and Joe's system adminstrator can tell that
> .63 is the table in the corner, you may be toast.
> On the other hand, if your IP address is a
> NAT box on a DSL line connected to Pac Bell Internet,
> at a chain of coffeeshops staffed by non-technical baristas,
>          "I don't know how the router thing works.  Want donuts?"
> and you're a 17-year-old kid in a room full of
> 15-20-year-old kids playing Quake, you'll have plenty of time
> to boogie out of there before the cops show up,
> or certainly before they figure out it was you -
> unless you've threatened to nuke Washington now,
> any investigation will be after the fact,
> so the real issue is whether you paid by credit card or cash
> and whether any name you used is traceable to you.

Any Internet Cafe - well any shop with any expensive goods in it these
days - is going to have TV cameras. Probably a bad place to be for
anonymity, if what you are doing is serious enough to expect
security-service or serious police reaction. If they can't trace your
cash they might be able to trace your picture. 

In general you would want to be in the biggest place you can find of
course. The best place to hide a needle is in a pile of needles -
haystacks are the place to hide hay. 

And it would help if it was in a big city. If you want to get lost, get
lost somewhere where millions of people get lost - London, Paris, New
York, huge cities where people walk and travel by train and bus. You
finish your business & walks straight into the crowd. A few changes of
Metro/Tube whatever & you could be anywhere. The getaway car is an
obsolete idea. In a car, they can see you from orbit. Or, more to the
point, from all the little machines on the roadside that take photos of
car.

Physical anonymity is getting harder, but it's less hard in big cities.
There are a lot of anonymous people in cities. Those guys you see
sitting on the side of the road asking for money, they're anonymous. As
far as you're concerned anyway. Lost in the city. So just walk into the
biggest Internet Cafe you can find within 50 yards of a train station.

On-line anonymity probably works best through a layers of indirection of
course. RTFA :-)

Ken




From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Wed Mar 28 11:26:12 2001
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:26:12 -0700
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <24b63c42cf09c80dd9e7446f21fd0b69@noisebox.remailer.org>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: application/pgp
Size: 900 bytes
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From sybase_web_accounts at sybase.com  Wed Mar 28 13:05:01 2001
From: sybase_web_accounts at sybase.com (Sybase Web Accounts)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:05:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome to Sybase on the Web
Message-ID: <2409003.985813497312.JavaMail.Administrator@msgmgr>


Welcome to Sybase on the Web!

This confirmation message is sent to all users
when they create a Web based account with Sybase. 
Your Sybase username is:  cypherpun 

You have registered with Sybase using the email address:
 cypherpunks at toad.com 

If you want to change your account information
go to: http://my.sybase.com/profile/account/




From twpansy at iname.com  Wed Mar 28 11:52:58 2001
From: twpansy at iname.com (twpansy at iname.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:52:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: More Nonsense from Frog Remailer Operator
Message-ID: <01032814525884.15022@weba1.iname.net>


Originally appeared in newsgroup alt.privacy.anon-server...



From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Mar 28 13:09:15 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:09:15 -0600
Subject: Patent flap slows multilingual domain name plan, 03/26/01
Message-ID: <3AC252FB.75F63C0C@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2001/0326patent.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From bear at sonic.net  Wed Mar 28 15:43:38 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:43:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010328093104.0080d930@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103281535310.16289-100000@bolt.sonic.net>


On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, David Honig wrote:


>Of course, there will be cameras on the Olympic internet kiosks for sure.
>That Orwellian football game face-scanning was only a warmup.

I would be astonished if these were not logging keystrokes and 
complete recordings of screen video.  I wouldn't be surprised if 
there were live COMINT people on site analyzing everything in 
real time for any potential threats. Maybe from another country 
if you have pesky laws about local COMINT people monitoring their 
own citizens, but they're going to be there and they're going to 
be working closely with local authorities.

If you are anywhere near the Olympics, expect every telephone 
call to be listened to in real time and every internet connection 
to be monitored in real time.  

				Bear

Thinking about the "prank" value of connecting a Blum-Blum-Shub 
generator on some old 386 to a packet modem and setting it to 
broadcast occasionally from some obscure spot near the olympics 
to simulate encrypted traffic.  But pretty sure that he would 
be charged with something if he did.




From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 12:58:24 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:58:24 -0500
Subject: Zone On the Range
In-Reply-To: <20010328025134.A9336@cypherpunks.ai>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:51:34AM -0400
References: <3AC1766E.7117DD59@ssz.com> <20010328025134.A9336@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <20010328155824.B30875@cluebot.com>


Jim is about as educable as a California politican, and even less friendly.

He has shifted from being an eccentric list member to something closer
to a list-saboteur.

-Declan

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:51:34AM -0400, Adam Back wrote:
> This is cryptic -- how do I know what this link will be about from your
> subject line.  Can't you quote as ascii the first paragraph, or write your
> own summary, or something?
> 
> If you can't be bothered to do that, the reference is not useful; it's just
> a random pointer.  Historically most of them are not even remotely crypto
> related.
> 
> I asked politely in private email if you would consider providing summaries. 
> I received no reply.  If you aren't going to provide summaries and
> meaningful subject lines, I politely ask that you stop sending the list
> random URLs.
> 
> Adam
> 
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 11:28:14PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > http://www.foxnews.com/politics/032601/golfcourse_kehnemui_shuster.sml
> 




From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 13:05:53 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 16:05:53 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Barr Works to Reform Secret Evidence Laws
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010328160547.02197950@mail.well.com>



>From: "Walsh, Brian J" <Brian.J.Walsh at mail.house.gov>
>Subject: Barr Works to Reform Secret Evidence Laws
>Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:14:17 -0500
>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
>
> > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                                         CONTACT:
> > Brian Walsh
>WEDNESDAY MARCH 28, 2001
>202-225-2931
>
>Barr Works to Reform Secret Evidence Laws
>Joins Colleagues in Introducing Bipartisan Legislation to
>Protect Fifth Amendment Rights
>
>         WASHINGTON D.C. -- U.S. Representative Bob Barr (GA-7) joined House
>Minority Whip David Bonior (MI-10) and Rep. Tom Davis (VA-11), Chairman of
>the National Republican Congressional Committee, at a news conference on
>Capitol Hill this morning to introduce bipartisan legislation addressing the
>use of secret evidence in immigration proceedings.
>
>         "The use of secret evidence in immigration proceedings not only
>violates basic principles of fundamental fairness, but it is also blatantly
>unconstitutional," Barr said.  "A cornerstone of our judicial system is the
>right of individuals to view and respond to evidence used against them.
>This legislation reaffirms the Fifth Amendment's guarantee that no person
>shall be deprived of liberty without due process."
>
>         Currently, the Immigration and Nationality Act authorizes the
>Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) to use classified information
>in political asylum and deportation cases.  The evidence is not disclosed to
>the immigrant or their counsel.  Under the proposed legislation, a federal
>district court judge would be presented with the government's classified
>evidence and would then provide an unclassified summary to the immigration
>judge and to the defendant.  No classified information would be revealed and
>the defendant would have access to the same information as the immigration
>judge who would decide the case.
>
>         "This bill is about fairness and freedom for all those living under
>the U.S. Constitution," Barr said.  "I look forward to working with my
>colleagues on both sides of the aisle to ensure this legislation is signed
>into law."
>
>         During the second presidential debate last year, President Bush
>indicated his support for ending the use of secret evidence.  The
>Bonior-Barr legislation, specifically, is supported by a number of advocacy
>groups from across the political spectrum, including the ACLU, the American
>Bar Association, Americans for Tax Reform, and all major Arab and Muslim
>organizations.
>
>Barr, a former federal prosecutor, represents Georgia's Seventh District.
>He serves on the House Financial Services, Judiciary, and Government Reform
>Committees.
>--30--




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Mar 28 13:28:08 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 16:28:08 -0500
Subject: Zone On the Range
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC5E@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> Declan McCullagh[SMTP:declan at well.com]
> Jim is about as educable as a California politican, and even less
> friendly.
> 
> He has shifted from being an eccentric list member to something closer
> to a list-saboteur.
> 
> -Declan
> 
This thought has occurred to me, too. At least once a month, a large chunk
of the junk traffic on cpunks is a direct result of Jim's actions - either
directly
posted by him, or by people discussing his almost universally perceived lack
of clue (this message and thread are an example of this).

He is, (in my opinion) a non-asset to this group.

Peter Trei
#include <std.disclaimer>




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Mar 28 13:28:08 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 16:28:08 -0500
Subject: Zone On the Range
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC5E@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Declan McCullagh[SMTP:declan at well.com]
> Jim is about as educable as a California politican, and even less
> friendly.
> 
> He has shifted from being an eccentric list member to something closer
> to a list-saboteur.
> 
> -Declan
> 
This thought has occurred to me, too. At least once a month, a large chunk
of the junk traffic on cpunks is a direct result of Jim's actions - either
directly
posted by him, or by people discussing his almost universally perceived lack
of clue (this message and thread are an example of this).

He is, (in my opinion) a non-asset to this group.

Peter Trei
#include <std.disclaimer>









From bear at sonic.net  Wed Mar 28 16:38:52 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 16:38:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328181440.14587E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103281635390.21602-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>The only way to pay in cash is two either send it through the mail (you do
>know about the cash sniffing dogs used at the UPS and airports don't you?)

"cash sniffing dogs?" C'mon, jim, I'm pretty paranoid, but that's 
just *out there*. Got a cite?  I haven't read anything from Terri(sp?) 
Smith Tyler lately, and I can use the laugh.


				Bear





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 15:03:50 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:03:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <7086f57f8099f874352c0ae1a5500c66@remailer.segfault.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328170330.14587s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Anonymous Coredump wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> 
> > There is no anonymizer/webmail combination that works, AFAIK. The barrier
> > are the cookies. They're not stoopid.
> 
> Anonymizer.com does cookie blocking with the premium accounts, I believe.

And now they have your credit card #...

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 15:08:02 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:08:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Inferno: Inforworld QOTD (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328170706.14587v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:13:51 -0500
From: Any Mouse
Reply-To: hell at ssz.com
To: The Club Inferno <hell at einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Inferno: Inforworld QOTD


QUOTE OF THE DAY:

"Privacy is one of those things, like water and air (and
electricity in California), that you don't think about too
much until it's gone. But once you lose it or it's in short
supply, you realize just how important it is."

--In his Ethics Matters column, Carlton Vogt gives his take
on how the Bush administration will deal with the thorny
question of online privacy.

http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/01/03/23/010323opethics.xml?0328weli


    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 28 17:09:21 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:09:21 -0800
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328181440.14587E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFIEFMDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote:

> Money order sales are recorded on video
> camera...

All?  Everywhere?  I doubt it, but that's what good theatrical makeup is
for.

> ...Each money order has a time stamp with
> vendor ID. I can't speak for youk, but it
> would take me as a LEA about 5 minutes to
> take a money order, find the vendor, and
> get subpeona on the video surveillance.
> At that point I have your face. From there
> I run it through the FBI files, if you've
> ever had a state issued photo ID it'll take
> about 3 days to nail you.

I like science fiction as well as the next Cypherpunk, but I doubt things
have gotten anywhere near as far as the subject, Choate, seems to believe.
It's all economics, Jim.  Citation, please.

Also, when I was a teenager, many moons ago, the "homeless" did an admirable
job as alcohol purchasing agents.  They could a similar market niche as
physical anonymizers.


 S a n d y
_____________________________________________________________

If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can’t it be changed
by Constitutional amendment since it’s the primary authority?

                           W         W
                           \*\     /*/
   The Road Kill Group     |*|     |*|
                          /*////|\\\\*\ |\-
                         (|||||||||||||\((x)\
                   -======-------------||---:>
                         (|||||||||||||/((x)/
                          \*\\\\|////*/ |/-
                           |*|     |*|
                           /*/     \*\
                           M         M




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 15:11:21 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:11:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Cryptography Mailing List Returns... (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328171109.14587x-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 28 Mar 2001 17:10:11 -0500
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry at wasabisystems.com>
To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com
Subject: The Cryptography Mailing List Returns...


The Cryptography Mailing List has been resurrected.

New submission address: cryptography at wasabisystems.com

A great deal of mail has queued up for the list in the last four
weeks. I may or may not forward bunches of it depending on continued
relevance.

"We apologize for the inconvenience."

--
Perry E. Metzger		perry at wasabisystems.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cryptography Mailing List
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From axlotl at hushmail.com  Wed Mar 28 17:26:44 2001
From: axlotl at hushmail.com (axlotl at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:26:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ninth Circuit ruling re webpage threats
Message-ID: <200103290134.RAA27394@user3.hushmail.com>


Participants and spectators in Jim Bell's trial next week in Seattle might 
be interested in this case, released by the Ninth Circuit today, concerning 
the use of a web page to publish addresses of third parties, and whether 
or not such publication is protected by the First Amendment where it's foreseeable 
that unknown persons could make use of the addresses to cause injury or 
embarassment -

<http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/9th/9935320.html>

As the Ninth Circuit writes -

Political speech may not be punished just because it
makes it more likely that someone will be harmed at some
unknown time in the future by an unrelated third party. In
Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969) (per curiam), the
Supreme Court held that the First Amendment protects speech
that encourages others to commit violence, unless the speech
is capable of "producing imminent lawless action. " Id. at 447.
It doesn't matter if the speech makes future violence more
likely; advocating "illegal action at some indefinite future
time" is protected. Hess v. Indiana , 414 U.S. 105, 108 (1973)
(per curiam). If the First Amendment protects speech advocat-
ing violence, then it must also protect speech that does not
advocate violence but still makes it more likely. 

The Ninth Circuit held that, where the web page publisher(s) themselves 
did not communicate a threat to harm the persons mentioned on the web page,
 the publication of the addresses was protected by the First Amendment.
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Mar 28 17:38:39 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:38:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 5
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328193325.14587P-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103281738160.16068-100000@clueserver.org>


On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, John Young wrote:
> 
> > Now the Western Washington District Court has removed
> > all TIFF images of court filings. Whether that is due to Judge
> 
> I'd bet one of the various search engines will have them archived...

Since when did search engines archive images?

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 28 18:00:44 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:00:44 -0800
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328192758.14587N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFIEFODDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote:

> I haven't seen a MO vendor that was video
> recorded in years. It wouldn't surprise me
> if the MO companies didn't require it. I
> don't intend to spend my time researching it.

Nor do I.  It was you that made the claim, however.  The burden of proof is
yours, not mine.

> Citation to what? That MO's have time stamps?

Well, that wouldn't hurt, but you claimed that LEAs could take our picture
and nail us in three days.  Is this just your paranoid fantasy, or do you
have an actual citation to sources that support this fanciful claim?

> You haven't been in a liquior or convenience
> store in years...

Wrong yet again.  What's your point, if any?


 S a n d y
_____________________________________________________________

If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can’t it be changed
by Constitutional amendment since it’s the primary authority?

                           W         W
                           \*\     /*/
   The Road Kill Group     |*|     |*|
                          /*////|\\\\*\ |\-
                         (|||||||||||||\((x)\
                   -======-------------||---:>
                         (|||||||||||||/((x)/
                          \*\\\\|////*/ |/-
                           |*|     |*|
                           /*/     \*\
                           M         M




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 16:19:05 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:19:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC66@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328181440.14587E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



You're one to talk.

Money order sales are recorded on video camera. Each money order has a
time stamp with vendor ID. I can't speak for youk, but it would take me as
a LEA about 5 minutes to take a money order, find the vendor, and get
subpeona on the video surveillance. At that point I have your face. From
there I run it through the FBI files, if you've ever had a state issued
photo ID it'll take about 3 days to nail you.

A check has your name and address.

The only way to pay in cash is two either send it through the mail (you do
know about the cash sniffing dogs used at the UPS and airports don't you?)
or stop by in person. Which means that they'll have a receipt and at least
on person who has seen your face. Now I suppose you could send the letter
with no return address and no internal note, but then how are they going
to know it was YOU paying the bill for that particular account? They're
not.

Don't know about Pay Pal but I bet you it has similar holes in its
'anonymity'.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Jim: You really don't like to let facts to get in the way of your 
> brilliance, do you?
> 
> Check: https://www.anonymizer.com/signup/sign_up.shtml. To quote:
> 
> ----------------------------
> Step 2: Please select a method of payment
> Method of payment:
> 
> [ ]  Visa or Mastercard 
> [ ]  PayPal, Cash, Check, or Money Order 
> 
> Should you wish to pay for Anonymizer Window Washer by Cash/Check/
> Money Order, you will only be admitted to the download site following our
> receipt of your payment.
> 
> Applicant assumes responsibility for lost cash payments sent via postal
> mail.
> ----------------------------

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From newsletter at edgar-online.com  Wed Mar 28 15:23:04 2001
From: newsletter at edgar-online.com (EDGAR Online News)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:23:04 EST
Subject: IPO SECrets Newsletter 3.28.01
Message-ID: <200103281823041944.5706091.47056138.2588@2clk.net>

EDGAR Online's IPO SECrets Newsletter
Editor: Timothy Middleton, EDGAR Online Analyst
editor at edgar-online.com

***INSIDE THIS ISSUE
IPO QUESTION OF THE WEEK: What Is a �Reload Provision�?
IPO COLUMN OF THE WEEK: IPO Market Returning to Normal?
IPO COMPANY PROFILE: Agere Systems (AGR): a Bargain at $6?
IPO MIDWEEK UPDATE: Go Ahead. No, After You. Please, You Go First.
VC COMPANY PROFILE: NuGenesis: Pharmaceutical, Scientific Data
Management 
COMPANIES MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE
PEOPLE MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE

----------ADVERTISEMENT---------------------
Free Annual Reports For Over 3,400 Companies
For EDGAR Online customers only. Download 
or get printed copies of Annual Reports FREE. 
Go to http://edgar-online.ar.wilink.com to order today.
--------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------
***IPO QUESTION OF THE WEEK***
----------------------------------------

QUESTION: What is a �reload provision�?

ANSWER: A reload provision is a feature in an option plan (or option
agreement) that allows companies to issue new option grants to
option-holding employees in exchange for retiring their former grants.
The new exercise price is usually pegged to the current market price.

�The number of reload shares granted is equal to the number of shares
delivered to exercise the option plus, in some cases, any shares
withheld for tax withholding obligations,� says Bruce Brumberg,
editor-in-chief of MyStockOptions.com. �The option generally expires on
the same date that the original option would have.�

----------------------------------------
***IPO COLUMN OF THE WEEK***
----------------------------------------
IPO Market Returning to Normal?

IPOs have stopped going down.

After months of battering, new equity offerings have shown faint signs
of life in March. Six of the seven IPOs that began trading this month
finished their first day in the black. Rather than soaring tenfold, as
hot issues were doing a year earlier, they finished ahead modestly �
mostly in line with the traditional norm of leaving 10% or so on the
table for aftermarket investors.

�Only the cream of the crop are getting through the IPO window, and they
are performing more as they did historically, delivering reasonable
returns,� says Clint Morrison, head of equity research for Miller
Johnson Steichen Kinnard, an investment bank in Minneapolis.

The most successful launch was AFC Enterprises (AFCE), the No. 2
operator of fast-food chicken restaurants, such as Church�s and
Popeye�s. Priced at $17, it finished its first trading day, March 2, at
$20.38 � a gain of 19.9%. At press time the shares were trading around
$18.75, up 10.3% from the IPO price.
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/company.asp?company=5222

The most highly touted deal of March, Loudcloud Inc. (LDCL), finished
its first day of trading, March 9, at $6.16 � some 16 cents, or 0.4%,
ahead of the IPO price. It subsequently slipped to $5.50, 8.3% below the
initial price. Loudcloud�s chairman is Marc Andreessen, formerly of
Netscape.
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/company.asp?company=5036

Stelmar Shipping (SJH) found favor in the aftermarket, and has preserved
it since its March 8 debut. Priced at $12, the shares finished their
first day at $12.80 and were trading at press time at $13.20, a gain of
precisely 10.0%.
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/company.asp?company=5280

The month�s sole loser was SureBeam Corp. (SURE), a maker of electronic
pasteurization equipment for the food industry. Launched March 16 at
$10, the shares closed their first day down 14.1% at $8.59. They have
since recovered, but only to $9.25.
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/company.asp?company=4912

In its registration statement with the SEC, SureBeam reported a pro
forma loss of $330,000 for the six months ended June 30, 2000, on
revenue of $9.3 million. Losses, says Morrison, are not something IPO
investors will tolerate these days.

�What we�re hearing from our customers is, they�re not interested;
everything else is on sale, so they�ll buy the stuff they already own,�
he says. �To get them interested, it�s got to be very compelling, which
means there�s got to be immediate visibility in earnings and growth. It
doesn�t necessarily have to be a low-risk deal, but there�s got to be a
level of comfort with the story.�

--------ADVERTISEMENT-----------------------
Purchase Business/Credit Reports from Dun & 
Bradstreet on over 11 million U.S. businesses. 
Click on the "Resources" link when you look 
up SEC filings for any public company, or 
search by company name and state at
http://www.edgar.telebase.com
--------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------
***COMPANY PROFILE***
----------------------------------------
Agere Systems (AGR) $6 Price Called Bargain

The scaled-down IPO of Lucent Technologies (LU) spin-off Agere Systems
was priced Tuesday at a rock-bottom $6 a share, leading at least one
major Wall Street firm to recommend buying the shares aggressively.

Agere, which begins trading today on the New York Stock Exchange with
the ticker AGR, is a world-leading maker of communications
semiconductors, but investment bankers struggled for months to close the
deal. It will fetch only $3.6 billion, far less than the $6.5 billion
Lucent originally sought.

Sanford C. Bernstein analysts Paul Sagawa and Matthew Nagle speculated
in a research report Friday that Lucent would �likely pull� the
offering, but wrote that if it didn�t, �We would be aggressive buyers.�

Debt-burdened Lucent is transferring $2.5 billion of debt to Agere in
the deal, and could retire more if a 90 million share Green Shoe is
exercised by the underwriters, which are led by Morgan Stanley Dean
Witter. 

Only hours before the pricing, IPO followers were skeptical the deal
would be done. �There�s a lot of doubt that that one will make to the
Street,� Clint Morrison, head of equity research for Miller Johnson
Steichen Kinnard in Minneapolis, said early Tuesday afternoon.

Agere�s IPO was filed in December, but nearly every passing week has
seen the market for technology stocks decline and, with it, interest in
this deal ebb. In February Agere set a price range of $15 to $20 for
370.3 million shares. Later that month it slashed the range to $12 to
$14 and boosted the number of shares to 500 million. Last week it
dropped the price to the current range, and increased the number of
shares to 600 million.
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/company.asp?company=5197

The Bernstein analysts say a $12 price for the offering would still be a
discount to rivals such as JDS Uniphase (JDSU) and Infineon Technologies
(IFX). �We believe the reduced price range is the product of poor market
conditions, negative LU sentiment and the sense of desperation to get
the deal done,� they wrote in a March 23 research call.

If the deal got the green light, however, the Bernstein analysts urged
clients to snap it up. �In the ($6 to $7) price range, Agere would trade
at 2.1 times calendar year 2000 sales of $5.1 billion � a 36% and 75%
discount to comparables IFX and JDSU, respectively,� the wrote. �Already
a strong business with leading products and attractive margins, we
believe Agere will experience strong synergies as an independent
company. LU�s competitors will be more inclined to purchase components
from an independent Agere.�

Allentown, PA-based Agere manufacturers communications semiconductors,
including optoelectronic components and integrated circuits. It calls
them �the basic building blocks of electronic and photonic products and
systems for terrestrial and submarine, or undersea, communications
networks and for communications equipment.�

The 16,500-employee company had revenue in the fiscal year ended Sept.
30 of $4.71 billion, and a loss of $76 million.

In addition to Morgan Stanley, the underwriting syndicate includes Bear
Stearns, JP Morgan Securities, Salomon Smith Barney, Deutsche Banc Alex
Brown, ABN AMRO Rothschild, SG Cowen Securities and Blaylock & Partners.

Agere will have 1.64 billion shares outstanding.

---------------------------------------
*** IPO MIDWEEK UPDATE FROM IPO EXPRESS***
----------------------------------------

IPOs on Deck 

Smith & Wollensky Restaurant Group Inc. (SWRG)
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/company.asp?company=5349

EDGAR INSIGHT: Smith & Wollensky Restaurant Group Inc. of New York, NY,
filed March 23 for an IPO. CE Unterberg Towbin is the lead underwriter.
The proposed offering is expected to raise $57.5 million. The company
will have 8.6 million post-offering shares outstanding. The company is a
developer and operator of high-end, high-volume steak restaurants in the
United States. The 1,812-employee company had 2000 revenue of $81.5
million and a loss of $6.4 million. 

Undone Deals 

Conexant Spinco Inc. (-TBA-)
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/company.asp?company=5147

EDGAR INSIGHT: Conexant Spinco Inc. of Newport Beach, CA, filed March 26
to withdraw its IPO. CS First Boston Corp. was the lead underwriter. The
proposed offering was expected to raise $100 million. The spinoff of
Conextant Systems Inc. (CNXT) develops semiconductor systems for
broadband communications. The 1,500-employee company had revenue of
$579.2 million for the fiscal year ended Sept. 30, and a loss of $232.8
million. 

Phase2Media Inc. (PTWO)
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/company.asp?company=4681

EDGAR INSIGHT: Phase2Media Inc. of New York, NY, filed March 26 to
withdraw its IPO. Robertson Stephens Inc. was the lead underwriter. The
proposed offering was expected to raise $57.5 million. The company is a
leading Internet advertising sales and marketing organization that sells
advertising inventory to branded Web publishers. The two year-old
company had revenue of $9.3 million for the 12 months ended Mar. 31,
2000 and a net loss of $9.7 million. 

QK Healthcare Inc. (KRX)
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/company.asp?company=3910

EDGAR INSIGHT: QK Healthcare Inc. of Ronkonkoma, NY, filed March 26 to
withdraw its IPO. Lehman Brothers Inc. was the lead underwriter. The
proposed offering was expected to raise $176 million. The company is a
national wholesale distributor of selected healthcare products to
retailers, wholesale distributors, and pharmacy benefit managers. 

----------------------------------------
**VENTURE CAPITAL COMPANY PROFILE**
 ----------------------------------------
by Udayan Gupta

NuGenesis: Pharmaceutical and scientific data management

Last year, pharmaceutical companies spent $26.4 billion dollars on R&D,
triple the amount spent a decade ago, says the industry trade group
Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA).  A firm
that can help drugmakers use their R&D dollars more efficiently should
expect to do well.

Five year-old NuGenesis Technologies Corporation (www.nugenesis.com) �-
formerly known as Mantra Software -- designs data management software
for science-based organizations. Applicable from research and discovery
through manufacturing, it is for use by anyone who views data generated
in a lab, or a large volume of data produced by disparate sources. �For
a pharma, that could be as much as 30% to 40% of their employee base,�
says Mike McGuinness, president and CEO. Based in Westborough, MA,
NuGenesis provides product installation, training for users and
administrators, and follow-on support. The software is deployable on a
small scale � five to 20 users � or on an enterprise-wide scale where
thousands of individuals contribute to a database. The software can be
used to share data sets, graphs and reports.

Though most of the firm�s customers are in pharmaceuticals and biotech,
NuGenesis is branching out into medical devices, chemicals and food. �We
target our software to science-based industries, but the software is
applicable to many markets,� says McGuinness. NuGenesis has revenues,
but no profits. Current clients include Abbott, Eli Lilly, Merk, Pfizer,
Genentech, Biogen, DuPont, and Philip Morris, among others. �We feel the
total market for our products is $5 billion worldwide, that includes all
science based industries,� says McGuinness.

In May 2000, the firm closed on a $25 million round of equity financing.
Investors include TA Associates, BancBoston Ventures, Brentwood Venture
Capital, Highland Capital, and St. Paul Venture Capital. NuGenesis is
not planning any additional funding rounds at this time. �We�re very
well funded, we have plenty of cash,� says McGuinness. 

In February, the 180-employee firm announced it would partner with
Oracle to allow users of NuGenesis software to share scientific data
online. Competition comes from software giants International Business
Machines Corporation (IBM), Microsoft Corporation (MSFT) and Siebel
Systems, Inc. (SEBL). 

*** Siebel Systems (SEBL) revenue grew 120% to nearly $1.8 billion in
2000, according to its 10-K405 filed Monday. Earnings per share doubled
to $0.24 from $0.12 in 1999. 
http://www.edgar-online.com/secrets.asp?d=1006835-0001006835-01-500005

*** Perkin Elmer�s (PKI) 10-K405 filed on Monday mentioned NuGenesis in
its new products summary on chromatography data management software:
�The seamless flow of TotalChrom data into the NuGenesis(R) SDMS
database provides laboratories with an integrated method of data capture
and management,� the Perkin Elmer filing said.
http://www.edgar-online.com/auth/verity/display.asp?query=NuGenesis&filename=0000950135%2D01%2D000920&cik=31791

In addition to its Westborough, MA headquarters, NuGenesis has offices
in The Netherlands, the United Kingdom, France, Germany and Italy. 

Venture Capital Investors:
TA Associates
BancBoston Ventures
Brentwood Venture Capital
Highland Capital
St. Paul Venture Capital

Executive Team:
Michael E. McGuinness, president and CEO
Ajit Nagral, Founder, EVP
Daryl Grabus, CFO


�Done Deals,� Udayan�s new book about the history of the venture capital
industry, is now on sale:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875849385/edgaronline


--------ADVERTISEMENT-----------------------
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critical compensation data from SEC filings to 
create a complete profile of executive pay, 
including salary, stock options, bonus, and 
other income, all in one place. Check it out 
now at http://www.edgar-online.com/compexpress/
--------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------
**COMPANIES MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE***
----------------------------------------
 
Abbott
ABN AMRO Rothschild
AFC Enterprises
Agere Systems
BancBoston Ventures
Bear Stearns
Biogen
Blaylock & Partners
Brentwood Venture Capital
CE Unterberg Towbin
Church�s
Conexant Spinco, Inc
Conextant Systems, Inc
CS First Boston Corp
Deutsche Banc Alex Brown
DuPont
Eli Lilly
Genentech
Highland Capital
Infineon Technologies
International Business Machines Corporation (IBM)
JDS Uniphase
JP Morgan Securities
Lehman Brothers Inc
Loudcloud Inc
Merk
Microsoft Corporation
Miller Johnson Steichen Kinnard
Morgan Stanley Dean Witter
NuGenesis Technologies Corporation (formerly Mantra Software)
Perkin Elmer
Pfizer
Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA)
Phase2Media Inc
Philip Morris
Popeye�s Restaurants
QK Healthcare Inc
Robertson Stephens Inc
Salomon Smith Barney
Sanford C. Bernstein
SG Cowen Securities
Siebel Systems, Inc
Smith & Wollensky Restaurant Group Inc
St. Paul Venture Capital
Stelmar Shipping
SureBeam Corp
TA Associates
 
 
----------------------------------------
**PEOPLE MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE***
----------------------------------------
Andreessen, Marc
Grabus, Daryl
McGuinness, Michael E.
Morrison, Clint
Nagle, Matthew
Nagral, Ajit
Sagawa, Paul

----------------------------------------
ABOUT THE EDITOR
---------------------------------------
IPO SECrets, published every Wednesday, is edited
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----------------------------------------
Copyright 2001, EDGAR Online, Inc.
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----------------------------------------
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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 16:25:44 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:25:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Another point about 'anonymous cash payments'
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328182154.14587F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



The UPS uses very effective computer character recognition. How long do
you think it'll take 'em (if they aren't now) to drop a traffic analysis
system in there to look for 'known writing samples'? Not very long I
suspect. And mail is tracked with respect to pickup by the very way it's
sorted in the bag. You could cause a slight hickup here by using
convenient drop boxes but that is getting a tad rare (not to mention most
are located at businesses that have security cameras - you think a couple
of cops would go through some tape if they knew the specific date the
letter was dropped? I think so.)

Using a typewriter or laser printer won't help, each leave characteristic
marks.

You people should spend more time looking in forensics texts.

But hey, don't believe me. Keep cranking out those 'anonymous' cash
payments sent through the mail...;)

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 16:35:37 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:35:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: A hint about strategy and tactics, one about cops, and , general system analysis
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328183110.14587G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Never assume your opponent is a fool, even if they are. Always try to make
your opponent think you are.

They are not stupid. They are motivated and believe in what they are
doing. These are the kinds of people that believe you made a mistake and
they're willing to spend whatever it takes to find it. [1]

If you want to understand a system, follow the money.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] A recent rapist was caught here in Austin after years of work simply
    because he spit on the sidewalk in public and was under surveillance.
    They grabbed a sample of the spit and matched it to evidence at a
    previous rape.






From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Mar 28 15:53:03 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:53:03 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC66@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] wrote: 
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Anonymous Coredump wrote:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> > 
> > > There is no anonymizer/webmail combination that works, AFAIK. The
> barrier
> > > are the cookies. They're not stoopid.
> > 
> > Anonymizer.com does cookie blocking with the premium accounts, I
> believe.
> 
> And now they have your credit card #...
> 
Jim: You really don't like to let facts to get in the way of your 
brilliance, do you?

Check: https://www.anonymizer.com/signup/sign_up.shtml. To quote:

----------------------------
Step 2: Please select a method of payment
Method of payment:

[ ]  Visa or Mastercard 
[ ]  PayPal, Cash, Check, or Money Order 

Should you wish to pay for Anonymizer Window Washer by Cash/Check/
Money Order, you will only be admitted to the download site following our
receipt of your payment.

Applicant assumes responsibility for lost cash payments sent via postal
mail.
----------------------------

(The context makes it clear that straight anonymized web 
access can be obtained via cash/money order as well.)

There are a number of other anonymizing services out there, 
all of which seem to have slightly different threat models, and 
none of which are 100% satisfactory.

The parties involved are

Bob, the user who wants to surf.
Fred, who runs the firewall Bob has to go through. Fred is also
         any observer undesired by Bob.
Webster, who runs the site Bob wants to see anonymously.
Alice, who runs the anonymizer.

Alice worries about:

1. Can Webster track a request back to Bob?
2. Can Fred see what URLs Bob is visiting?
3. Can Fred see what content those URLs send back?
4. Can Alice see what URLs Bob is visiting?
5. Can Alice see what content those URLs send back?
6. Can Fred tell that Bob is using Alice?

(I'm not going to get into cookies. Most anonymizers try to
do something semi intelligent with them).

Here are three: 

They all protect against Worry 1.

None protect against Worries 4 & 5, though if you could chain anonymizers,
you'd be partway there.

Some protect against Worries 2 and/or 3.

Only one partially protects against Worry 6.

-----
www.anonymizer.com

Free version anonymizes user to web site. 

Pay version claims to encrypt URLs so fire walls
can't log where you're visiting,. Does not encrypt content,
but premium service allows surfing through an SSH 
connection to protect content from snooping on it's way 
to and from www.anonymizer.com, so a firewall can't 
log you. This does require SSH ports to be usable.

Free version is slow.
-------

www.cotse.com
Free

Anonymizes user to website.
Does not encrypt data, but does encrypt URLs. Most
firewalls won't know what you're doing, unless they're
scanning content.

Slow.
---------

www.safeweb.com
Free.
Encrypts all data coming from website, but does not 
obscure URLs in requests.
Pretty fast. Lots of configurable
options for cookies, etc.

'Triangle Boy' option obscures to firewall that you are going
thru an anonymizer, but places your requests in the hands
of a P2P service running on unknown host(s) of undetermined
trustworthyness.

Safeweb apparently has the CIA as one of it's clients, which
gives some people pause.

--------------------

If Safeweb obscured URLs in a similar manner to COTSE, I'd
be pretty happy.

Peter Trei




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Mar 28 15:53:03 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:53:03 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC66@exna07.securitydynamics.com>



> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] wrote: 
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Anonymous Coredump wrote:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> > 
> > > There is no anonymizer/webmail combination that works, AFAIK. The
> barrier
> > > are the cookies. They're not stoopid.
> > 
> > Anonymizer.com does cookie blocking with the premium accounts, I
> believe.
> 
> And now they have your credit card #...
> 
Jim: You really don't like to let facts to get in the way of your 
brilliance, do you?

Check: https://www.anonymizer.com/signup/sign_up.shtml. To quote:

----------------------------
Step 2: Please select a method of payment
Method of payment:

[ ]  Visa or Mastercard 
[ ]  PayPal, Cash, Check, or Money Order 

Should you wish to pay for Anonymizer Window Washer by Cash/Check/
Money Order, you will only be admitted to the download site following our
receipt of your payment.

Applicant assumes responsibility for lost cash payments sent via postal
mail.
----------------------------

(The context makes it clear that straight anonymized web 
access can be obtained via cash/money order as well.)

There are a number of other anonymizing services out there, 
all of which seem to have slightly different threat models, and 
none of which are 100% satisfactory.

The parties involved are

Bob, the user who wants to surf.
Fred, who runs the firewall Bob has to go through. Fred is also
         any observer undesired by Bob.
Webster, who runs the site Bob wants to see anonymously.
Alice, who runs the anonymizer.

Alice worries about:

1. Can Webster track a request back to Bob?
2. Can Fred see what URLs Bob is visiting?
3. Can Fred see what content those URLs send back?
4. Can Alice see what URLs Bob is visiting?
5. Can Alice see what content those URLs send back?
6. Can Fred tell that Bob is using Alice?

(I'm not going to get into cookies. Most anonymizers try to
do something semi intelligent with them).

Here are three: 

They all protect against Worry 1.

None protect against Worries 4 & 5, though if you could chain anonymizers,
you'd be partway there.

Some protect against Worries 2 and/or 3.

Only one partially protects against Worry 6.

-----
www.anonymizer.com

Free version anonymizes user to web site. 

Pay version claims to encrypt URLs so fire walls
can't log where you're visiting,. Does not encrypt content,
but premium service allows surfing through an SSH 
connection to protect content from snooping on it's way 
to and from www.anonymizer.com, so a firewall can't 
log you. This does require SSH ports to be usable.

Free version is slow.
-------

www.cotse.com
Free

Anonymizes user to website.
Does not encrypt data, but does encrypt URLs. Most
firewalls won't know what you're doing, unless they're
scanning content.

Slow.
---------

www.safeweb.com
Free.
Encrypts all data coming from website, but does not 
obscure URLs in requests.
Pretty fast. Lots of configurable
options for cookies, etc.

'Triangle Boy' option obscures to firewall that you are going
thru an anonymizer, but places your requests in the hands
of a P2P service running on unknown host(s) of undetermined
trustworthyness.

Safeweb apparently has the CIA as one of it's clients, which
gives some people pause.

--------------------

If Safeweb obscured URLs in a similar manner to COTSE, I'd
be pretty happy.

Peter Trei




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 17:00:15 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:00:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cash sniffing dogs
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328185950.14587K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Go to google.com & use

'cash sniffing dogs'

Enjoy the extensive reading.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 17:01:04 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:01:04 -0600
Subject: Feds Take Aim at Cash Smuggling
Message-ID: <3AC28950.60338A48@ssz.com>


http://www.apbonline.com/newscenter/breakingnews/2000/12/29/customs_seize1229_01.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From hung at plainmail.com  Wed Mar 28 11:05:45 2001
From: hung at plainmail.com (I Sent Your Saddle Home)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:05:45 GMT
Subject: [INFO] Keep tuned: Script-Kiddie and ilk against Frog
Message-ID: <mailman.388.1576007506.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

On 28 Mar 2001 15:05:28 -0000, Frog-Admin threw some more dry wood on
his funeral pyre when he wrote:

>There is more from "Erwan David" <Erwan.David at teaser.fr> ,

(No doubt some innocent schmuck who made the mistake of sending to
Frog/Frog2 without chaining first.)

>who belongs to my "short list" of people I suspect to be
>the single or collective entity called "Script-Kiddie"

Why fret over TLAs,folks? We have our own internal law enforcement:
Sheriff Frog-Admin.

>HISTORY
>"Erwan David" has a long history of terrorizing newbies,
>bullying them on NG for whatever reason.
>He has a passion to contact abuse departments and try to shut down accounts.
>He also likes to propagate false information,
>  like Frog stopping last Summer because I was bankrupt.
>He is very exactly the ilk I was thinking of when I wrote my policy,
>and *explicitly* excluded remailer-haters from the benefit of privacy.

(snip)
>And I warn that occurrence of such posts would immediately
>have me send my sworn testimony to the police and judge that
>those posts were probably the making of "Erwan David".
>
>In the meantime, I suggest his ISP that he takes aside every mail sent
>by "Erwan David", which would be encrypted to a remailer.
>I would be more than happy to decypher my part of it to give
>material proof

Disgraceful.

Frog-Admin protects only himself. He has a resolute intolerance of
unpopular speech. He cannot tolerate the very thing a remailer is
meant to protect!

In contrast, I urge you to read the words of a trustworthy and
honorable remop, Randseed Admin Len Sassaman:
http://lexx.shinn.net/pipermail/remops/2001-March/000962.html

Frog-Admin, Your arrogance will be your downfall. I take comfort in
knowing that.

Saddle
(who now will be added to Frog-Admin's "short-list"
if I'm not on it already)




---------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 17:21:18 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:21:18 -0600
Subject: Worried about rf snooping and bugs? (Home made plasma balls in your microwave :)
Message-ID: <3AC28E0E.A2D288D8@ssz.com>


http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/jlnlabs/html/oa_plasmoid.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 17:26:56 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:26:56 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | "Nuremberg Files" Decision Overturned
Message-ID: <3AC28F60.A7C1C1F9@ssz.com>


Somebody should tell Jim Bell...

http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/28/2130219.shtml

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 17:30:35 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:30:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFIEFMDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328192758.14587N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Jim wrote:
> 
> > Money order sales are recorded on video
> > camera...
> 
> All?  Everywhere?  I doubt it, but that's what good theatrical makeup is
> for.

I haven't seen a MO vendor that was video recorded in years. It wouldn't
surprise me if the MO companies didn't require it. I don't intend to spend
my time researching it. Let us know if you find one. I bet when all of us
start hitting it they'll figure something is up :)

> I like science fiction as well as the next Cypherpunk, but I doubt things
> have gotten anywhere near as far as the subject, Choate, seems to believe.
> It's all economics, Jim.  Citation, please.

Citation to what? That MO's have time stamps?

> Also, when I was a teenager, many moons ago, the "homeless" did an admirable
> job as alcohol purchasing agents.  They could a similar market niche as
> physical anonymizers.

You haven't been in a liquior or convenience store in years...

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 17:32:14 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:32:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Typo: RE: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328192758.14587N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328193127.14587O-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> I haven't seen a MO vendor that was video recorded in years. It wouldn't
                                  ^^^
                                  wasn't

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 17:34:30 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:34:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 5
In-Reply-To: <200103290109.UAA03338@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328193325.14587P-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, John Young wrote:

> Now the Western Washington District Court has removed
> all TIFF images of court filings. Whether that is due to Judge

I'd bet one of the various search engines will have them archived...

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 17:46:03 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:46:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 5
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103281738160.16068-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328194504.14587Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:

> Since when did search engines archive images?

Quite a while now. Google for example has a long history of being a
saviour for many a lost webpage. You can also look at the various database
projects that 'store the Internet'. IBM has one.






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Mar 28 16:57:39 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:57:39 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 5
Message-ID: <200103290109.UAA03338@smtp6.mindspring.com>


Now the Western Washington District Court has removed
all TIFF images of court filings. Whether that is due to Judge
Jack's expanding his order forbidding public disclosure of 
discovery materials after we put a bunch of Jim's filings on 
the Net, or another counterterrorist ploy to censor Jim and 
his terrifying accusations, who knows.

No call back from Leen on my inquiry about being a witness
for Bell. Fuck him, bedwetting with the feds.

Remember, do not e-mail, telephone or visit me or you're
subject to subpoena. Same for tarred Declan, or anybody else 
pissants Choate and Leen are eager to CDR.





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 18:01:45 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:01:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 5
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103281738160.16068-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328200022.14587R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:

> 
> Since when did search engines archive images?
> 

If you know of a machine that searched that site and it hasn't been too
long the images will be in the cache as well (if it's turned on).

So, if you looked at the site yesterday, those images are probably still
sitting on your drive.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Mar 28 17:02:54 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:02:54 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC67@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com] wrote:
> You're one to talk.
> 
> Money order sales are recorded on video camera. Each money order has a
> time stamp with vendor ID. I can't speak for youk, but it would take me as
> a LEA about 5 minutes to take a money order, find the vendor, and get
> subpeona on the video surveillance. At that point I have your face. From
> there I run it through the FBI files, if you've ever had a state issued
> photo ID it'll take about 3 days to nail you.
> 
Yes Jim, I am one to talk. In my (small) town, there are no video cameras in
the PO. I've looked for them, carefully and repeatedly. (The notion that my
town
PO would have concealed cameras while big city POs expose them is for the
clinically paranoid) Traceback is limited by the memory of the two
overworked 
(at least on Saturday morning) ladies who woman the front desk. Of course, 
if I was worried I would just send cash.

[...]

> The only way to pay in cash is two either send it through the mail (you do
> know about the cash sniffing dogs used at the UPS and airports don't you?)
> or stop by in person. Which means that they'll have a receipt and at least
> on person who has seen your face. Now I suppose you could send the letter
> with no return address and no internal note, but then how are they going
> to know it was YOU paying the bill for that particular account? They're
> not.
> 
Well, if you're not going to include a note, of course you're screwed. But
why
wouldn't you? Set up an account (U=armadillo, P=roadkill), then put some
cash
in a privacy envelope along with a note saying 'This is for armadillo's
account'.
(Now Jim, don't raise the spectre of handwriting or typewriter recognition -
I think
that's too silly even for you - can you cite a single case where a (B&W)
laser
or inkjet printed document was identified as coming from a particular 
well-maintained printer, as opposed to a typewriter? (I didn't think so)).
If 
you're still worried, get a trusted friend (if you have any) to write the
address. 

What receipt? Sending cash to anonymizer.com relies on something called 
trust (which I realize is a foreign concept to you). If they scam you, you
won't
send them cash again.

Cash goes through the mail all the time, especially around Christmas. 
While a few 'cash sniffing dogs' do exist, the notion that domestic
first class mail is routinely checked for small quantities of perfectly 
legal cash is another sign of clinical paranoia (or of someone who 
realizes he's backed into a corner and is resorting to heroic measures 
rather than admit defeat in an argument).

	[...]

> On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
           [anonymizer.com allows payment by cash or money order]

Peter Trei
#include <std.disclaimer>




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Mar 28 17:02:54 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:02:54 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC67@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com] wrote:
> You're one to talk.
> 
> Money order sales are recorded on video camera. Each money order has a
> time stamp with vendor ID. I can't speak for youk, but it would take me as
> a LEA about 5 minutes to take a money order, find the vendor, and get
> subpeona on the video surveillance. At that point I have your face. From
> there I run it through the FBI files, if you've ever had a state issued
> photo ID it'll take about 3 days to nail you.
> 
Yes Jim, I am one to talk. In my (small) town, there are no video cameras in
the PO. I've looked for them, carefully and repeatedly. (The notion that my
town
PO would have concealed cameras while big city POs expose them is for the
clinically paranoid) Traceback is limited by the memory of the two
overworked 
(at least on Saturday morning) ladies who woman the front desk. Of course, 
if I was worried I would just send cash.

[...]

> The only way to pay in cash is two either send it through the mail (you do
> know about the cash sniffing dogs used at the UPS and airports don't you?)
> or stop by in person. Which means that they'll have a receipt and at least
> on person who has seen your face. Now I suppose you could send the letter
> with no return address and no internal note, but then how are they going
> to know it was YOU paying the bill for that particular account? They're
> not.
> 
Well, if you're not going to include a note, of course you're screwed. But
why
wouldn't you? Set up an account (U=armadillo, P=roadkill), then put some
cash
in a privacy envelope along with a note saying 'This is for armadillo's
account'.
(Now Jim, don't raise the spectre of handwriting or typewriter recognition -
I think
that's too silly even for you - can you cite a single case where a (B&W)
laser
or inkjet printed document was identified as coming from a particular 
well-maintained printer, as opposed to a typewriter? (I didn't think so)).
If 
you're still worried, get a trusted friend (if you have any) to write the
address. 

What receipt? Sending cash to anonymizer.com relies on something called 
trust (which I realize is a foreign concept to you). If they scam you, you
won't
send them cash again.

Cash goes through the mail all the time, especially around Christmas. 
While a few 'cash sniffing dogs' do exist, the notion that domestic
first class mail is routinely checked for small quantities of perfectly 
legal cash is another sign of clinical paranoia (or of someone who 
realizes he's backed into a corner and is resorting to heroic measures 
rather than admit defeat in an argument).

	[...]

> On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
           [anonymizer.com allows payment by cash or money order]

Peter Trei
#include <std.disclaimer>




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Wed Mar 28 20:33:08 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:33:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Encouraging Terrorists is Legal
Message-ID: <200103290433.f2T4X8W04082@artifact.psychedelic.net>


A US Federal Appeals Court has tossed out the $109 million verdict against
anti-abortion activists who ran a website called "The Nuremberg Files",
which listed the personal information of abortion doctors, and cheered
whenever one of them was killed.
     
The Judge opined that as long as the defendants didn't threaten to commit
violent acts, working alone or with others, that their conduct constituted
protected First Amendment Free Speech.
     
Specifically, speech which only "encourages unrelated terrorists" is First
Amendment protected.
     
Now what was it Jim Bell threatened to do with those pigfucker names and
addresses again?

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Wed Mar 28 20:37:02 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:37:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ninth Circuit ruling re webpage threats
Message-ID: <200103290444.UAA22047@user5.hushmail.com>

>Participants and spectators in Jim Bell's trial next week in Seattle might 
be interested in this case, released by the Ninth Circuit today, concerning 
the use of a web page to publish addresses of third parties, and whether 
or not such publication is protected by the First Amendment where it's foreseeable 
that unknown persons could make use of the addresses to cause injury or 
embarassment -

<http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/9th/9935320.html>

I think Judge Kozinski's ruling can also be easily read in support of free 
speech by operator and participants in anonymous betting pools with political 
interests.

ks
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

From tcmay at got.net  Wed Mar 28 20:48:48 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:48:48 -0800
Subject: It's 2001, so it must be time for A Modest Filtering
  Proposal
In-Reply-To: <20010328232205.B7678@cluebot.com>
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBAA@exna07.securitydyna
  mics.com> <a05010400b6b4844692f0@[207.111.241.219]>
  <20010328232205.B7678@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b6e86d8ac4c4@[207.111.241.172]>


At 11:22 PM -0500 3/28/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:06:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>  A more interesting downstream filter service would be something
>>  operated as an automated site, like another CDR node, except that it
>>  automatically filters out nonsubscribers to one of the main lists.
>>  (This requires no cooperation with the other CDR nodes, provided the
>>  whois function can retrieve their subscribers.)
>
>This is an old message, but let me point out that I post from
>a differnet address than my subscription address. I suspect I'm not
>the only one, so some manual "includes" may be in order.

Eric Murray took my proposal and ran with it, quickly implementing it 
as the "cypherpunks at lne.com" address.

He has said that he is manually "including" various remailers, and 
probably other addresses.

It might be enough for him to include the names outside of the 
address boxes. E.g., "Declan McCullagh," regardless of the 
"declan at well.com" or "agentdeclan at kremvax.org" or whatever.

Of course, if people use different names AND addresses, they are 
indistinguishable from noise.

By the way, subscribing to Eric Murray's cypherpunks at lne.com has cut 
out most of the spam and nearly all of the toad.com traffic. There is 
no significant delay, either. Or to to be more precise, I see my own 
posts about 2 minutes after sending them off. (It's conceivable that 
my own messages loop back to me faster than other messages, but this 
seems an unlikely feature of the mail exploder.)

[Note from Agents in the Northwest: "May just said "exploder." Put 
this in his folder. We may have another Cypherpunk terrorist here."]


--Tim May


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Mar 28 20:56:55 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:56:55 -0800
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering
  Software[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <20010328232747.C7678@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
  <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net>
  <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]>
  <20010328232747.C7678@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010404b6e8700459a1@[207.111.241.172]>


At 11:27 PM -0500 3/28/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:10:03AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>  When the State has the power to take monies and then decide how and
>>  when to dole them back out, it is using its coercive powers to
>>  regulate behavior just as surely as if it had banned behaviors
>>  outright.
>
>Right. If only the big-government fetishists would think through
>this (not that it would change things) -- why not just let the Feds
>tax at 100 percent and dole out money to worthy causes, with strings
>attached?

The difference between 100% and 70% is not great. It serves the same purpose.

(Many estimate the tax burden to be in this ballpark, considering 
that income to non-governmental agencies is taxed at a high rate 
(usually the max, 50 % combined federal and state), then the income 
and dividends to employees and shareholders is further taxed at a 
high rate (30-45%). Tack on property taxes, utility taxes, 8% sales 
taxes, energy taxes, special use permit taxes, boat taxes, luxury 
taxes....)

These united states have allowed themselves to become something far, 
far worse than what the colonists were revolting against.

A kleptocracy, with a Potemkin facade of freedom.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Mar 28 18:11:31 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:11:31 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 5
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328193325.14587P-100000@einstein.ssz.com
 >
References: <200103290109.UAA03338@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <200103290223.VAA00835@smtp6.mindspring.com>


Fuck Jim's CDR.

The WWA images were available only through the PACER
subscription service, so they are not likely to be archived
on the Web unless somebody else did it.

We downloaded many, but not all of them, and not all
provided full copies of filings; some offered only the first 
page.

Happily, the stuff Jim sent by snail the other day provides
the missing pages of the truncated docs and several other 
filings that were not on the WWA site. They'll be up tonight 
or tomorrow.

The docket through today shows that subpoenas are
going out for Jim's witnesses, er, his accusers, ratfinks
and alleged victims, posted here yesterday. That's if 
Jack doesn't deny Jim his licks as customary of blind 
justice WWA.

This mad rush to trial may be interrupted in order to
deny Jim his perfect appeal grounds that he was prevented
from required time for defense preparation -- and running 
down witnesses fleeing subpoenas and while praying for 
60 Minutes to answer the chalk mark.




From mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net  Wed Mar 28 11:29:37 2001
From: mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net (Anonymous Coredump)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:29:37 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <7086f57f8099f874352c0ae1a5500c66@remailer.segfault.net>

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From info at tradepmr.com  Wed Mar 28 22:05:23 2001
From: info at tradepmr.com (TradePMR)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:05:23
Subject: Wow! Online trading with online training. You must see this!
Message-ID: <200103290305.f2T35OW20738@ak47.algebra.com>

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From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 19:36:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:36:39 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC66@exna07.securitydynamics.com>; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 06:53:03PM -0500
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC66@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <20010328223639.A7099@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 06:53:03PM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
> Jim: You really don't like to let facts to get in the way of your 
> brilliance, do you?
> 
> Check: https://www.anonymizer.com/signup/sign_up.shtml. To quote:

Yep, Lance has been far better than most in accepting cash/money
order/etc. I mentioned this as recently as the last few weeks in an
article. Perhaps Jim might want to read articles instead of
forwarding them.

I may be meeting with the Safeweb folks tomorrow. Anythin I should
ask them?

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 19:39:31 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:39:31 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328192758.14587N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:30:35PM -0600
References: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFIEFMDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328192758.14587N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010328223931.B7099@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:30:35PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> I haven't seen a MO vendor that was video recorded in years. It wouldn't
> surprise me if the MO companies didn't require it. I don't intend to spend
> my time researching it. Let us know if you find one. I bet when all of us
> start hitting it they'll figure something is up :)

Jim may actually have half a point. But I suspect that 711 tapes aren't
kept for years, and money orders often last *quite* a while.

-Declan
 




From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 19:43:13 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:43:13 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 5
In-Reply-To: <200103290109.UAA03338@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:57:39PM -0500
References: <200103290109.UAA03338@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010328224313.C7099@cluebot.com>


Very interesting. Knowing the way government bureaucracies work, it's
probably just coincidence, but I wouldn't rule out a more sinister
explanation. Then again, all of Bell's motions that are in the online
docket would be in the physical one, too, so it's just security though
obscurity, at best.

-Declan

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:57:39PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> Now the Western Washington District Court has removed
> all TIFF images of court filings. Whether that is due to Judge
> Jack's expanding his order forbidding public disclosure of 
> discovery materials after we put a bunch of Jim's filings on 
> the Net, or another counterterrorist ploy to censor Jim and 
> his terrifying accusations, who knows.
> 
> No call back from Leen on my inquiry about being a witness
> for Bell. Fuck him, bedwetting with the feds.
> 
> Remember, do not e-mail, telephone or visit me or you're
> subject to subpoena. Same for tarred Declan, or anybody else 
> pissants Choate and Leen are eager to CDR.
> 
> 




From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 19:45:26 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:45:26 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | "Nuremberg Files" Decision Overturned
In-Reply-To: <3AC28F60.A7C1C1F9@ssz.com>; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:26:56PM -0600
References: <3AC28F60.A7C1C1F9@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010328224526.D7099@cluebot.com>


See also:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-01860.html

-Declan


On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:26:56PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Somebody should tell Jim Bell...
> 
> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/28/2130219.shtml
> 
> -- 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>          If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
>          not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From steeleye at steeleye.ath.cx  Wed Mar 28 13:03:33 2001
From: steeleye at steeleye.ath.cx (STEELEYE)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:03:33 +0200
Subject: Zone On the Range
Message-ID: <069a5f02bc11425cb26cf372aa5b4d47@steeleye.ath.cx>

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From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 20:22:05 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:22:05 -0500
Subject: It's 2001, so it must be time for A Modest Filtering Proposal
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6b4844692f0@[207.111.241.219]>; from tcmay@got.net on Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:06:13PM -0800
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBAA@exna07.securitydynamics.com> <a05010400b6b4844692f0@[207.111.241.219]>
Message-ID: <20010328232205.B7678@cluebot.com>


On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:06:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> A more interesting downstream filter service would be something 
> operated as an automated site, like another CDR node, except that it 
> automatically filters out nonsubscribers to one of the main lists. 
> (This requires no cooperation with the other CDR nodes, provided the 
> whois function can retrieve their subscribers.)

This is an old message, but let me point out that I post from 
a differnet address than my subscription address. I suspect I'm not
the only one, so some manual "includes" may be in order.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 20:27:47 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:27:47 -0500
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering
  Software[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:10:03AM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
  <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net>
  <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]>
Message-ID: <20010328232747.C7678@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:10:03AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> When the State has the power to take monies and then decide how and 
> when to dole them back out, it is using its coercive powers to 
> regulate behavior just as surely as if it had banned behaviors 
> outright.

Right. If only the big-government fetishists would think through
this (not that it would change things) -- why not just let the Feds
tax at 100 percent and dole out money to worthy causes, with strings
attached?

-Declan




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Mar 28 23:35:43 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:35:43 -0800
Subject: Virginia law bans anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010328233937.00a384e0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010328233036.00a0b530@idiom.com>


Remailers aren't for falsifying email transmission information -
they're for concealing and deleting that information.
You're not pretending that your mail originates at foo.remailer.net,
you're just not telling anybody how it got there.
Even a nymserver doesn't do that - joepseudonym at foo.nymserver.net
isn't claiming to really live inside that mail server,
just to have an address on that server.
The features in Netscape and Eudora that let you pick your From: info
might count, and of course Fakemail and similar programs definitely would.

A more interesting issue is how this applies to AOL screen names,
and also how involved AOL was in the creation of the law,
since they're largely a Virginia-based company.

At 11:39 PM 03/28/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>See also:
>http://www.politechbot.com/p-01862.html
>
>http://www.spamlaws.com/state/va.html
>§ 18.2-152.4. Computer trespass; penalty. B. It shall be unlawful for any 
>person knowingly to sell, give or otherwise distribute or possess with the 
>intent to sell, give or distribute software which (i) is primarily 
>designed or produced for the purpose of facilitating or enabling the 
>falsification of electronic mail transmission information or other routing 
>information; (ii) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use 
>other than to facilitate or enable the falsification of electronic mail 
>transmission information or other routing information; or (iii) is 
>marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with 
>that person's knowledge for use in facilitating or enabling the 
>falsification of electronic mail transmission information or other routing 
>information.
>
>





From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 20:39:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:39:58 -0500
Subject: Virginia law bans anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010328233937.00a384e0@mail.well.com>



See also:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-01862.html

http://www.spamlaws.com/state/va.html
§ 18.2-152.4. Computer trespass; penalty. B. It shall be unlawful for any 
person knowingly to sell, give or otherwise distribute or possess with the 
intent to sell, give or distribute software which (i) is primarily designed 
or produced for the purpose of facilitating or enabling the falsification 
of electronic mail transmission information or other routing information; 
(ii) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to 
facilitate or enable the falsification of electronic mail transmission 
information or other routing information; or (iii) is marketed by that 
person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's 
knowledge for use in facilitating or enabling the falsification of 
electronic mail transmission information or other routing information.





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 21:40:55 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:40:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFIEFODDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328231821.14587W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Nor do I.  It was you that made the claim, however.  The burden of proof is
> yours, not mine.

???

The claim is that it is unlikely there are any MO vendors which are not
protected by a video camera currently. In fact, probably haven't been for
quite a number of years. It's the nature of the business. You couldn't
even get insurance for such a business w/o a camera on premises. the same
goes for liquior licenses and such as well. I would be so bold as to say
that there hasn't been a single 'convenience store' (unless perhaps a
family privately owned w/o insurance - rare industry speaking) in this
country since the mid-80's that didn't have at least one camera on the
cash register area so that each and every customer gets a 'mug shot'. I'd
say there are zero such stores today and probably through most of the 90's
as well.

That you would even question such an obvious situation is pretty amazing.

Call your own insurance company and ask them what the rate differences are
between a store that sells MO's, liquior, etc. w/ a video surveillance
system, or one without. Then ask them if they can give you at least a
percentage of total sales between the two classes. Then call the city and
ask them if they require security systems to get a business license (some 
do, some don't).

> Well, that wouldn't hurt, but you claimed that LEAs could take our picture
> and nail us in three days.  Is this just your paranoid fantasy, or do you
> have an actual citation to sources that support this fanciful claim?

No, I said that on average once the LEA had your photo AND you had ever
had a state issued photo ID that it would take about three days for them
to find your picture. The systems are getting better and better and the
inter-connects over the last few years have gotten much broader. I'd
suggest getting subscriptions to the government and LEA trade mags.

If they've got things like partial license or a name it won't take them
that long.

Consider you drive your vehicle to the store. Purchase a MO. There is
clearly a security camera because you watch yourself, watch yourself,
watch yourself, ... I digress

Anyway, you take your MO and leave the store safe that all they've got is
your photo and you've never had a license issued. Your driving illegally
is not an issue. You commit whatever sin against god, nature, and the
American way it is that floats your boat that particular day. The police
tie the MO. They go to the store and ask for the appropriate tape. In fact
they ask for both tapes.

Both tapes?

You didn't see the camera on the corner that got the shot of your car and
license plate?

http://www.supercircuits.com

I can especially suggest their low-light b/w CCD. I use mine on a 8"
Newtonian to shoot the moon.

> > You haven't been in a liquior or convenience
> > store in years...
> 
> Wrong yet again.  What's your point, if any?

That your logic is fuzzy because you know very little about the mechanics
of the physical security business.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From nobody at hyperreal.pl  Wed Mar 28 15:55:47 2001
From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous)
Date: 28 Mar 2001 23:55:47 -0000
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <36ce433fc66167c2d59de5520cc253c5@hyperreal.pl>


On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Jim Choate blathered:

> > Anonymizer.com does cookie blocking with the premium accounts, I 
> > believe.
>
> And now they have your credit card #...

No, ninny, they do not. Anonymizer accepts cash payments. 

https://www.anonymizer.com/signup/sign_up.shtml

Why don't you check your facts before you open your hole?


-MW-




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 22:00:20 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:00:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC67@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328235715.14587Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Yes Jim, I am one to talk. In my (small) town, there are no video cameras in
> the PO. I've looked for them, carefully and repeatedly. (The notion that my

Dude, they feed full video through a fiber cable that fits in the center
shaft of the clock hands. They put them in fire detectors (and they still
detect to boot), they put them in the holes of the ceiling tile. You could
look all day long and not see it.

You must 'look'. I doubt they'd let you take their building apart. If it's
a government office or handles any sort of cargo of worth there will a
video camera feeding a slow-scan video recorder it's a function of
getting insurance and legal liability.

You can take that to the bank.

It's too, too, too cheap,

http://www.supercircuits.com

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 22:13:00 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:13:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <20010328223931.B7099@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329000125.14587Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Jim may actually have half a point. But I suspect that 711 tapes aren't
> kept for years, and money orders often last *quite* a while.

Generaly they keep a tape for a week to a month or so. Most companies see
this sort of stuff as 'mission critical'. Some place like 7-11 may send
them off to a central site for storage up to a year. Remember the tapes
are critical evidence for INTERNAL issues as well. They are prime evidence
of theft, etc. If it's one of these big chain stores they feed the 5-10
fps signal out their VSAT for off-site storage and that can be kept for up
to a year.

MO's have a time limit. the Travellers Express I have in hand is 1 year (3
years in CA). You can't get one for more than about $400 anymore, and any
single site can't do you more than like $2000 in any 24 hour period.

The thesis that you're going to buy MO's and then delay using them is
probably effective if you are aware of the MO issuers security policies.
If not then you're better off using them as fast as possible. Of course if
you need this sort of protection you probably shouldn't buy them from your
city and probably shouldn't mail them from either of these two cities. Now
not only is there a MO trail, but a correlated travel trail as well. Of
course we'll pay for everything with cash and sign nothing. That will help
a lot, though we won't be flying, renting a car, or sleeping in hotels. We
should also do it in such a way that the day or two we're out catting
about nobody misses us. So work won't need us and family and friends won't
miss us either. How often can you pull that off before somebody starts
getting curios?

Traffic Analysis is a bitch. Evidence everywhere.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 21:36:00 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:36:00 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 5
In-Reply-To: <200103290223.VAA00835@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:11:31PM -0500
References: <200103290109.UAA03338@smtp6.mindspring.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328193325.14587P-100000@einstein.ssz.com > <200103290223.VAA00835@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010329003600.A11155@cluebot.com>


At one point, Jim refused to waive his right to a speedy trial,
so part of the rushed nature is due to his decision. (Perhaps a
conscious one to spend as little time as possible in jail. Or
perhaps he refused to waive that right before he knew he was not
going to get discovery documents, etc.)

-Declan


On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:11:31PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> Fuck Jim's CDR.
> 
> The WWA images were available only through the PACER
> subscription service, so they are not likely to be archived
> on the Web unless somebody else did it.
> 
> We downloaded many, but not all of them, and not all
> provided full copies of filings; some offered only the first 
> page.
> 
> Happily, the stuff Jim sent by snail the other day provides
> the missing pages of the truncated docs and several other 
> filings that were not on the WWA site. They'll be up tonight 
> or tomorrow.
> 
> The docket through today shows that subpoenas are
> going out for Jim's witnesses, er, his accusers, ratfinks
> and alleged victims, posted here yesterday. That's if 
> Jack doesn't deny Jim his licks as customary of blind 
> justice WWA.
> 
> This mad rush to trial may be interrupted in order to
> deny Jim his perfect appeal grounds that he was prevented
> from required time for defense preparation -- and running 
> down witnesses fleeing subpoenas and while praying for 
> 60 Minutes to answer the chalk mark.
> 




From declan at well.com  Wed Mar 28 21:38:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:38:08 -0500
Subject: Encouraging Terrorists is Legal
In-Reply-To: <200103290433.f2T4X8W04082@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:33:08PM -0800
References: <200103290433.f2T4X8W04082@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20010329003808.B11155@cluebot.com>


In fact, Jim was quoted as saying -- I'm watching what I type since
the Feds appear to be watching this list and chatting among themselves
and other folks involved in this case about what is posted -- that
he explicitly was *not* going to violate the law.

-Declan


On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:33:08PM -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
> A US Federal Appeals Court has tossed out the $109 million verdict against
> anti-abortion activists who ran a website called "The Nuremberg Files",
> which listed the personal information of abortion doctors, and cheered
> whenever one of them was killed.
>      
> The Judge opined that as long as the defendants didn't threaten to commit
> violent acts, working alone or with others, that their conduct constituted
> protected First Amendment Free Speech.
>      
> Specifically, speech which only "encourages unrelated terrorists" is First
> Amendment protected.
>      
> Now what was it Jim Bell threatened to do with those pigfucker names and
> addresses again?
> 
> -- 
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
> 




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Mar 28 22:48:07 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:48:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Speaking of free speech...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329004409.14587f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Has anyone seen anything on the Supreme Court and the IR/4th Amendment
Search issue? It seems like a vacuum.

If the SC doesn't rule and let it just sit there won't this be the same as
agreeing that the search is legal without having to face the actual
constitutional test of issuing a ruling? What happens if they let it sit
until the court retires (Oct.?) for the year? Are they required to
re-visit when they rejoin?

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From reports at ipoexpressemail.com  Thu Mar 29 01:11:03 2001
From: reports at ipoexpressemail.com (EDGAR Online)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:11:03 -0800
Subject: IPO Express: Daily News 03/28/01
Message-ID: <200103290911.BAA19408@mailhost.ostman.com>


******************************************************************************
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IPO NEWS

* Agere Systems began trading. [NYSE:AGR, AGRA]
* Natus Medical Inc removed Prudential Securities Inc and added First Union Securities Inc and Adams Harkness & Hill Inc to the underwriters list. [NASDAQ:BABY]

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/iponews.asp for more news.

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EXPECTED PRICINGS

* BELLACASA PRODUCTIONS INC       MAR30 - CLOSING      [NASDAQ:BCSA]
* K-1 BUILDERS INC                MAR30 - CLOSING      [OTCBB:-TBA-]
* KINGDOM VISION NETWORK INC      MAR30 - CLOSING      [OTCBB:-TBA-]
* LORELEI CORP                    MAR30 - CLOSING      [N/A:N/A]
* ONEDENTIST RESOURCES INC        MAR30 - CLOSING      [OTCBB:WEBD]
* PETSVETSANDYOU.COM              MAR30 - CLOSING      [-TBA-:-TBA-]
* Q POWER INC                     MAR30 - CLOSING      [OTCBB:-TBA-]
* VENTURELIST.COM INC             MAR30                [OTCBB:-TBA-]
* SELECT MEDICAL CORP             APR2-3               [NASDAQ:SLMC]

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POPULAR IPO COMPANIES

* AGERE SYSTEMS                  [P]   [NYSE:AGR, AGRA]
* ODYSSEY RE HOLDINGS CORP             [NYSE:ORH]
* RED BELL BREWING CO                  [OTCBB:RDBL]
* THE SMITH & WOLLENSKY RESTAURANT GROUP INC       [NASDAQ:SWRG]
* VERISITY LTD                   [P]   [NASDAQ:VRST]
* LOUDCLOUD INC                  [P]   [NASDAQ:LDCL]
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[P] Denotes that the company is already priced.

SHORT-TERM LOCKUP EXPIRATIONS

Company                                              Priced Days   Expires
ELASTIC NETWORKS INC (ELAS)                         9/29/00  180  3/28/01
DOCENT INC (DCNT)                                   9/29/00  180  3/28/01
E-CENTIVES INC (ECEN)                               10/2/00  180  3/31/01
IMAGEWARE SYSTEMS INC (IWU, IW, IWWS)               3/31/00  365  3/31/01
INFORMAX INC (INMX)                                 10/2/00  180  3/31/01
OPLINK COMMUNICATIONS INC (OPLK)                    10/3/00  180   4/1/01
ADVANCED SWITCHING COMMUNICATIONS INC (ASCX)        10/4/00  180   4/2/01
KOSAN BIOSCIENCES INC (KOSN)                        10/4/00  180   4/2/01
COACH INC (COH)                                     10/4/00  180   4/2/01
TNPC INC  (NPW)                                     10/4/00  180   4/2/01
ASIA GLOBAL CROSSING (AGCX)                         10/6/00  180   4/4/01
THERMOELASTIC TECHNOLOGIES INC  (TMRO)              10/9/00  180   4/7/01
WATSON WYATT & COMPANY HOLDINGS (WW)               10/10/00  180   4/8/01
W-H ENERGY SERVICES INC  (WHES)                    10/10/00  180   4/8/01
POZEN INC (POZN)                                   10/10/00  180   4/8/01
INTROGEN THERAPEUTICS INC (INGN)                   10/11/00  180   4/9/01
SYNPLICITY INC (SYNP)                              10/12/00  180  4/10/01
SINOPEC  (SNP)                                     10/12/00  180  4/10/01

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SHORT-TERM QUIET PERIOD EXPIRATIONS

Company                                                 IPO   Expires
STELMAR SHIPPING (SJH)                               3/6/01  3/31/01
SEATTLE GENETICS INC (SGEN)                          3/7/01   4/1/01
ENCORE ACQUISITION CO (EAC)                          3/9/01   4/3/01
LOUDCLOUD INC (LDCL)                                 3/9/01   4/3/01
SUREBEAM CORP (SURE)                                3/16/01  4/10/01

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----------------------------------------




From visitors at edgar-online.com  Wed Mar 28 22:32:27 2001
From: visitors at edgar-online.com (visitors at edgar-online.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:32:27 EST
Subject: EDGAR Online makes SEC information printable.
Message-ID: <200103290632.WAA21761@toad.com>


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From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 29 02:11:39 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 02:11:39 -0800
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328231821.14587W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFOEGEDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote:

> No, I said that on average once the LEA
> had your photo AND you had ever had a state
> issued photo ID that it would take about
> three days for them to find your picture.

So in other words, there is no citation to back up these fanciful claims.

> I'd suggest getting subscriptions to the
> government and LEA trade mags.

Since you seem to be implying that these trade magazines are the source of
your fanciful claims, please give us a specific foundation.  Making silly
claims and then saying, "look it up" when challenged is intellectually
dishonest, lazy or both.


 S a n d y
_____________________________________________________________

If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can’t it be changed
by Constitutional amendment since it’s the primary authority?

                           W         W
                           \*\     /*/
   The Road Kill Group     |*|     |*|
                          /*////|\\\\*\ |\-
                         (|||||||||||||\((x)\
                   -======-------------||---:>
                         (|||||||||||||/((x)/
                          \*\\\\|////*/ |/-
                           |*|     |*|
                           /*/     \*\
                           M         M




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 05:20:52 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:20:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFOEGEDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329071653.14587k-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> So in other words, there is no citation to back up these fanciful claims.

What 'fanciful' claim?

- That the police have photo databases?

- That on average, if they have a photo to match it'll take 'em something
  like three days to match it?
 
> > I'd suggest getting subscriptions to the
> > government and LEA trade mags.
> 
> Since you seem to be implying that these trade magazines are the source of
> your fanciful claims, please give us a specific foundation.  Making silly
> claims and then saying, "look it up" when challenged is intellectually
> dishonest, lazy or both.

What 'silly' claims? You are the one making claims (ie they are 'silly')
implying you have some 'knowledge'.

It is you who are lazy and dishonest.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 05:29:54 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:29:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Photo search performance
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329072912.14587l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



How long did it take them to check each of the visitors against a known
database of 'criminals' during a recent sporting event?

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 05:30:51 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:30:51 -0600
Subject: Philadelphia Police Technology ::: Identification Based Information System (IBIS)
Message-ID: <3AC3390B.17D4E051@ssz.com>


http://www.ppdonline.org/ppd2_tech_ibis.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 05:39:53 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:39:53 -0600
Subject: Oracle and the Chicago Police
Message-ID: <3AC33B29.E94AE6D8@ssz.com>


http://www.oracle.com/oramag/webcolumns/chicago.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 05:43:59 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:43:59 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | FPGA Supercomputers
Message-ID: <3AC33C1F.A678CD2F@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/29/070209.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From aluger at hushmail.com  Thu Mar 29 08:20:43 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:20:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: It's 2001, so it must be time for A Modest Filtering  
  Proposal
Message-ID: <200103291621.IAA20146@user1.hushmail.com>


At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:48:48 -0800, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> wrote:


>Eric Murray took my proposal and ran with it, quickly implementing it 
>as the "cypherpunks at lne.com" address.
>
>He has said that he is manually "including" various remailers, and 
>probably other addresses.
>
>It might be enough for him to include the names outside of the 
>address boxes. E.g., "Declan McCullagh," regardless of the 
>"declan at well.com" or "agentdeclan at kremvax.org" or whatever.

Now if only he would filter out Jim Choate...

Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 29 08:34:03 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:34:03 -0800
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329071653.14587k-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFEEGJDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Jim wrote,

> What 'fanciful' claim?
>
> - That the police have photo databases?
>
> - That on average, if they have a photo to
> match it'll take 'em something like three
> days to match it?

Yup.  We all know that photo recognition technology exists.  What is your
EVIDENCE that right now, today, in the USA, this technology is on-line, and
in use such that your claim that someone who buys a money order can be
identified in three days.  No coulda, woulda, shoulda, but documentation
that supports this fanciful claim.  I don't think you have that evidence,
because I don't think it exists.  Jim, as usual, you are talking through
your hat.  Put up or shut up, big mouth.


 S a n d y
_____________________________________________________________

If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can’t it be changed
by Constitutional amendment since it’s the primary authority?

                           W         W
                           \*\     /*/
   The Road Kill Group     |*|     |*|
                          /*////|\\\\*\ |\-
                         (|||||||||||||\((x)\
                   -======-------------||---:>
                         (|||||||||||||/((x)/
                          \*\\\\|////*/ |/-
                           |*|     |*|
                           /*/     \*\
                           M         M







From bear at sonic.net  Thu Mar 29 08:46:53 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:46:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ninth Circuit ruling re webpage threats
In-Reply-To: <200103290444.UAA22047@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103290845300.12129-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:

>I think Judge Kozinski's ruling can also be easily read in support of free 
>speech by operator and participants in anonymous betting pools with political 
>interests.


I think you are wrong.  The neuremberg files website didn't *create* 
a motive for killing.  Assassination Politics would.  That is a key 
difference.

				Bear




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 06:58:23 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:58:23 -0600
Subject: CDR: CNN.com - A real!!! news story...
Message-ID: <mailman.389.1576007507.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Ask yourself this,

Why does CNN have nothing on the 9th Circuit ruling related to 'free speech'
expression of 'violent acts'? Is 'civil liberties' not a news worthy point?
Is the abortion issue not important?

http://www.cnn.com/

And finally, why will 'independent media' outlets not point this irony out?


--
     ____________________________________________________________________

          If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
          not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 06:58:23 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:58:23 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - A real!!! news story...
Message-ID: <3AC34D8F.1D97791F@ssz.com>


Ask yourself this,

Why does CNN have nothing on the 9th Circuit ruling related to 'free speech'
expression of 'violent acts'? Is 'civil liberties' not a news worthy point?
Is the abortion issue not important?

http://www.cnn.com/

And finally, why will 'independent media' outlets not point this irony out?


-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Thu Mar 29 09:06:48 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:06:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ninth Circuit ruling re webpage threats
Message-ID: <200103291721.JAA08848@user5.hushmail.com>


At 08:46 AM 3/29/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net>wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:

>>I think Judge Kozinski's ruling can also be easily read in support of 
free 
>>speech by operator and participants in anonymous betting pools with political 
>>interests.


>I think you are wrong.  The neuremberg files website didn't *create* 
>a motive for killing.  Assassination Politics would.  That is a key 
>difference.

You're right AP might not be protected.  But suppose the activity is different. 
 Suppose its publically stated purpose is some uncontroversial legit activity,
 such as psychic prediction contests.  Shouldn't the same sorts of protections 
should apply as in the ruling? The fact that terrorists unknown to the psychics 
might use the contests for illegal purpose (maybe specifically prohibited 
by the contest organizers) should cover the majority participants.

ks

Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Thu Mar 29 07:22:40 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:22:40 -0600
Subject: Tombstone Taps: 5th Cir
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEHECIAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


"The dispositive issue in Kee and Routier's complaint is whether the secret
electronic recording of their private prayers and conversations directed at
their deceased relatives violated their reasonable expectation of privacy."

http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/99/99-10555-cv0.htm

"In their affidavits, Kee and Routier assert that their "grieving
conversations and statements" and "oral prayers and communications to
ourselves and our God" should be private and not subject to government
wiretaps. These statements, alone, cannot sustain the weight of Kee and
Routier's burden in establishing that they had a subjective expectation of
privacy."

.....
Opinion hinges on: "The Failure to Demonstrate Sufficient Facts to Establish
a Subjective Expectation of Privacy"
.....

"Perhaps most damaging to Kee and Routier's argument is that they failed to
present evidence demonstrating any affirmative steps taken to preserve their
privacy. While it is apparent from their affidavits that they did not expect
government agents surreptitiously to be recording their prayers, they also
were aware that the service was being conducted in an outdoor setting. Kee
and Routier fail to allege that they took any steps to ensure that unwanted
individuals were excluded or that they did anything to preserve the private
nature of the service. They point to no reasonable safeguards or
common-sense precautions taken to preserve their expectation of privacy."

~Aimee

(The dead don't talk, but they do listen. I'm envisioning Mafia funerals
with TSCM checkpoints. "YOU ARE BEING RECORDED" epitaphs.)




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 29 09:26:02 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:26:02 -0800
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329105309.14587w-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFGEGLDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


I wrote:

> What is your EVIDENCE that right now, today,
> in the USA, this technology is on-line, and
> in use such that your claim that someone who
> buys a money order can be identified in three
> days.  No coulda, woulda, shoulda, but
> documentation that supports this fanciful
> claim.

To which Jim replied [emphasis, mine]:

> What was that sporting event again?...
> I'd VENTURE...The technology exists.
> Consider the police in LONDON...Consider
> ...Photo identification and management is
> a primary GOAL in every one of them...the
> system is here and with sufficient
> motivation the priority to apply COULD
> arranged...My SUSPICION is...The primary
> factor WILL be IF the particular local...

Hmm, lots of coulda, woulda, shoulda, but NO citations, NO documentation, NO
evidence.  Res ipsa loquitur.

Jim, come up with some evidence and we'll talk.  Otherwise, I'm just going
to let you continue to make a damned fool of yourself without further
comment.


 S a n d y
_____________________________________________________________

If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can’t it be changed
by Constitutional amendment since it’s the primary authority?

                           W         W
                           \*\     /*/
   The Road Kill Group     |*|     |*|
                          /*////|\\\\*\ |\-
                         (|||||||||||||\((x)\    /------\
                   -======-------------||---:>  < Ha ha! |
                         (|||||||||||||/((x)/    \------/
                          \*\\\\|////*/ |/-
                           |*|     |*|
                           /*/     \*\
                           M         M




From BF at farc.org  Thu Mar 29 09:59:10 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:59:10 -0800
Subject: how to screw a teenager from the other side of the world 
Message-ID: <3AC377ED.4D42F933@farc.org>



                        Pitzer kept chatting to the teenager, while her
mother
                         contacted the local police officer, Constable
John Rei, who
                         came to the house. "I just got her to keep
chatting in the
                         chat room," Rei said. "We eventually got his
real name, his
                         e-mail address, the city he lived in and the
name of his high
                         school." Rei then passed that information onto
Interpol who
                         called the FBI.

                         The FBI then got in touch with the police in
North
                         Huntington, the boy's hometown. According to a
report in
                         the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, North Huntington's
police chief,
                         Charles Henaghan, went to the boy's high school
and the
                         teen was suspended the same day.

http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,42699,00.html




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Mar 29 01:02:46 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:02:46 +0100
Subject: Slashdot | "Nuremberg Files" Decision Overturned
References: <3AC28F60.A7C1C1F9@ssz.com> <20010328224526.D7099@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3AC2FA36.EE2CDD0A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


The UK government is supposed to be considering a change in the law so
that the addresses of company directors are no longer public - mainly
because of the targeting of directors of businesses involved in animal
experimentation & the meat trade. At the moment you can get the names &
addresses of the chief officers of a limited company.

Ken 

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> See also:
> http://www.politechbot.com/p-01860.html
> 
> -Declan
> 
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:26:56PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > Somebody should tell Jim Bell...
> >
> > http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/28/2130219.shtml




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 08:07:08 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:07:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Tombstone Taps: 5th Cir
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEHECIAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329100035.14587q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



                                Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.

The above places NO burden of proof or action on the acused. It also
places no exemptions on what may be searched once probable cause is
demonstrated. It further places no limits on searches based on the
intended targets desires or state of mind. The issue of 'private' or
'public' is specious with respect to legaly executed searches.

The 1st doesn't say that 'speech' or 'press' can't be searched.


On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> "The dispositive issue in Kee and Routier's complaint is whether the secret
> electronic recording of their private prayers and conversations directed at
> their deceased relatives violated their reasonable expectation of privacy."
> 
> http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/99/99-10555-cv0.htm
> 
> "In their affidavits, Kee and Routier assert that their "grieving
> conversations and statements" and "oral prayers and communications to
> ourselves and our God" should be private and not subject to government
> wiretaps. These statements, alone, cannot sustain the weight of Kee and
> Routier's burden in establishing that they had a subjective expectation of
> privacy."
> 
> .....
> Opinion hinges on: "The Failure to Demonstrate Sufficient Facts to Establish
> a Subjective Expectation of Privacy"
> .....
> 
> "Perhaps most damaging to Kee and Routier's argument is that they failed to
> present evidence demonstrating any affirmative steps taken to preserve their
> privacy. While it is apparent from their affidavits that they did not expect
> government agents surreptitiously to be recording their prayers, they also
> were aware that the service was being conducted in an outdoor setting. Kee
> and Routier fail to allege that they took any steps to ensure that unwanted
> individuals were excluded or that they did anything to preserve the private
> nature of the service. They point to no reasonable safeguards or
> common-sense precautions taken to preserve their expectation of privacy."
> 
> ~Aimee
> 
> (The dead don't talk, but they do listen. I'm envisioning Mafia funerals
> with TSCM checkpoints. "YOU ARE BEING RECORDED" epitaphs.)
> 

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 08:14:39 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Speaking of free speech... (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329100908.14587s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



One reason they may not want to rule is they realize the consequences. And
by letting it die a quite death they lose nothing and hold future options
open. This of course would be predicated upon the vast majority of the SC
wanting to rule in favor of IR searches but recognizing there isn't a
realistic constitutional argument to support such action.

It would effectively squash the current action and give them about 2 years
of breathing room. While this scenario is not probable it is clearly not
completely unlikely either.

In addition it raises the interesting question of what would say a 2 year
delay gain? A very different bench? How many are likely to retire in the
next two years?

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:40:35 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
To: Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Cc: cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com, The Club Inferno <hell at EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: CDR: Speaking of free speech...

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:48:07AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Has anyone seen anything on the Supreme Court and the IR/4th Amendment
> Search issue? It seems like a vacuum.
> 
> If the SC doesn't rule and let it just sit there won't this be the same as
> agreeing that the search is legal without having to face the actual
> constitutional test of issuing a ruling? What happens if they let it sit
> until the court retires (Oct.?) for the year? Are they required to
> re-visit when they rejoin?

They're not required to do anything. But I don't see any reason why
they won't rule by the end of the term.

A "vacuum?" There's been a lot of news coverage, sheesh. Hand-waving,
as usual, mixed with a bit of conspiracy theorizing.

-Declan


Case could define privacy 
Feb. 22, 2001 14:31 ET 
www.dallasnews.com/national/291863_1ascotus_20nat.html

Privacy Vs. Technology in High Court Case 
Feb. 20, 2001 14:25 ET 
abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/scotus_thermal010220.html

Supreme Court to consider whether privacy, high-tech snooping are at odds 
Feb. 20, 2001 04:51 ET 
seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/SeattleTimes.woa/wa/gotoArticle?zsection_id=268448413&t...

High-tech search at issue in pot case 
Feb. 10, 2001 05:45 ET 
www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?f=/stories/20010209/470055.html

Privacy a Victim of the Drug War 
Dec. 11, 2000 02:00 ET 
www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,40532,00.html






From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 08:24:37 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:24:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <200103291653.LAA07933@www.subdimension.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329101534.14587t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, brainteaser wrote:

> So am I right in saying there isn't, and never really was, a way of
> making truly anonymous transactions?

I don't know if I'd go that far. I can say that I've spent many years
looking for it as an intellecutal exercise and I've yet to find a system
that couldn't be cracked with good forensics and a search warrant.

Another aspect is whether you want the entire transaction anonymous or
just some aspect of it.

For example, you could arrange to meet a bum at one time and place. Have
the bum execute your plan (ie go into store and then head down street) and
then meet you at another time and place. Have the two meeting in a
residential neighborhood where you've scoured the neighborhood for obvious
external cameras. The point here is to increase the cost of the cops
finding the video. If they see a video camera on a house and they say saw
the bum turn down that street from the store camera they could subpeona
that camera. So you'd want to create a situation where the cost to find
the camera was prohibitive. This of course has its own problems like the
bum running off w/ your money. There'd still be the geographic similarity
you, the bum, the store, and the MO share. You'd probably never want to
use that site or bum again. And so on.

My personal belief is there is no security. That the best you can hope for
is an escalating growth in complexity and cost. Others differ on this point.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From declan at well.com  Thu Mar 29 07:40:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:40:35 -0500
Subject: Speaking of free speech...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329004409.14587f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:48:07AM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329004409.14587f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010329104035.B1266@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:48:07AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Has anyone seen anything on the Supreme Court and the IR/4th Amendment
> Search issue? It seems like a vacuum.
> 
> If the SC doesn't rule and let it just sit there won't this be the same as
> agreeing that the search is legal without having to face the actual
> constitutional test of issuing a ruling? What happens if they let it sit
> until the court retires (Oct.?) for the year? Are they required to
> re-visit when they rejoin?

They're not required to do anything. But I don't see any reason why
they won't rule by the end of the term.

A "vacuum?" There's been a lot of news coverage, sheesh. Hand-waving,
as usual, mixed with a bit of conspiracy theorizing.

-Declan


Case could define privacy 
Feb. 22, 2001 14:31 ET 
www.dallasnews.com/national/291863_1ascotus_20nat.html

Privacy Vs. Technology in High Court Case 
Feb. 20, 2001 14:25 ET 
abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/scotus_thermal010220.html

Supreme Court to consider whether privacy, high-tech snooping are at odds 
Feb. 20, 2001 04:51 ET 
seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/SeattleTimes.woa/wa/gotoArticle?zsection_id=268448413&t...

High-tech search at issue in pot case 
Feb. 10, 2001 05:45 ET 
www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?f=/stories/20010209/470055.html

Privacy a Victim of the Drug War 
Dec. 11, 2000 02:00 ET 
www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,40532,00.html






From declan at well.com  Thu Mar 29 07:42:29 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500
Subject: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
In-Reply-To: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA@EXBANGALORE>; from GaneshA@icode.com on Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530
References: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA@EXBANGALORE>
Message-ID: <20010329104229.C1266@cluebot.com>


Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.

-Declan


On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530, Ganesh Acharya wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> We are looking forward to conduct a Bulk e-mail (HTML) campaign targeting
> the SMEs and hence a bulk e-mail service provider. In this concern I would
> like to know a few details:
> 1) Do you mail HTML mails?
> 2) In the context of the campaign can you host our micro site as until the
> campaign gets over?
> 3) Do you provide targeted e-mail addresses targeting the SMEs?
> 
> I would appreciate if you can mail me the cost involved and any additional
> service you provide in the domain of targeted bulk e-mail campaigns, ASAP.
> Thanks.
> 
> Ganesh Acharya
> Marketing Analyst - Web
> Icode Inc
> Ph: (703) 934 4700 Ext - 294
> Fx: (703) 934 4708
> mail: ganesha at icode.com
> www.icode.com
> 




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Mar 29 10:43:20 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:43:20 -0800
Subject: High overall tax rates
In-Reply-To: <200103291730.MAA29751@divert.sendon.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net> 
  <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net> 
  <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]> 
  <20010328232747.C7678@cluebot.com> 
  <a05010404b6e8700459a1@[207.111.241.172]>
  <200103291730.MAA29751@divert.sendon.net>
Message-ID: <a0501040bb6e93151c3f3@[207.111.241.172]>


At 6:10 AM +0000 3/30/01, Steve Thompson wrote:
>Quoting Tim May (tcmay at got.net):
>>  (Many estimate the tax burden to be in this ballpark, considering
>>  that income to non-governmental agencies is taxed at a high rate
>>  (usually the max, 50 % combined federal and state), then the income
>>  and dividends to employees and shareholders is further taxed at a
>>  high rate (30-45%). Tack on property taxes, utility taxes, 8% sales
>>  taxes, energy taxes, special use permit taxes, boat taxes, luxury
>>  taxes....)
>
>That's quite an impressive haul.  How do they do it?
>

I think I explained pretty well the mechanics of how the taxes are 
piled on at each stage.

If you mean "how do the sheeple let themselves be fleeced?," the 
answer lies in creeping statism. The boiling frog metaphor. Each 
special interest group thinks it is "getting something" as the size 
of government grows.

>  > These united states have allowed themselves to become something far,
>>  far worse than what the colonists were revolting against.
>>
>>  A kleptocracy, with a Potemkin facade of freedom.
>
>Well, Tim, it isn't a facacde so much as a prevalent attitude.  As far as I
>can tell, the majority of people play a big game of make-believe.  They act as
>though they are free while voluntarily limiting their behaviour to a very
>narrow range.
>
>Fortunately, there's enough entertainment out there to keep everyone happy.

"Everyone happy"? Disproved by just a single counterexample, and 
there are a lot of folks out there unhappy enough with things to 
<fill in favorite examples here>.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 08:43:51 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:43:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com - A real!!! news story...
In-Reply-To: <20010329104655.D1266@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329103731.14587v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Yes, clearly the media is covering up this decision.

Not at all. My initial point was that it had media coverage. It was simply
a inquisitive observation about the priority setting mechanisms of the
COMMERCIAL media and how even 'independent critical' press had economic
incentives as well. It further demonstrate the asymmetry in the results
with respect to what is 'important' enough to be 'news'.

As I've said before in this forum, not all 'cooperative' behaviour is
necessarily a 'conspiracy', if enough people act in concert the effect is
the same. In many cases it is the quantity and not the intent that is
important. Is the 'economic' theory of the 'guiding hand' not the same sort
of 'conspiracy' theory?

There's more in heaven and earth...

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Thu Mar 29 07:46:55 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:46:55 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - A real!!! news story...
In-Reply-To: <3AC34D8F.1D97791F@ssz.com>; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:58:23AM -0600
References: <3AC34D8F.1D97791F@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010329104655.D1266@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:58:23AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Why does CNN have nothing on the 9th Circuit ruling related to 'free speech'
> expression of 'violent acts'? Is 'civil liberties' not a news worthy point?
> Is the abortion issue not important?
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/
> 
> And finally, why will 'independent media' outlets not point this irony out?


Yes, clearly the media is covering up this decision.

-Declan

Abortion 'Hit List' Protected, Court Says 
Mar. 29, 2001 07:30 ET 
www.sltrib.com/03292001/nation_w/83845.htm

Anti-Abortion Verdict Overturned 
Mar. 29, 2001 05:53 ET 
cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,282235-412,00.shtml
 
Threats against abortion doctors protected, judges rule 
Mar. 29, 2001 05:53 ET 
www.kcstar.com/item/pages/home.pat,local/37753cdb.328,.html
 
Court: Web site attacking abortion doctors protected 
Mar. 29, 2001 05:51 ET 
seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/SeattleTimes.woa/wa/gotoArticle?zsection_id=268448413&t...
 
Huge Verdict Voided / $107 million judgment against anti-abortion activists dumped 
Mar. 29, 2001 05:50 ET 
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/28/MN62445.DTL
 
Court upholds abortion doctor 'wanted list' 
Mar. 29, 2001 05:44 ET 
www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/epaper/editions/today/news_a32c5d7664afd1600051.html
 
Appeals Court Backs Anti-Abortionists' Web Postings 
Mar. 29, 2001 05:35 ET 
www.newsbytes.com/news/01/163787.html
 
Appeals Court Overturns $109 Million Verdict Against Anti-Abortion Web Site 
Mar. 29, 2001 05:05 ET 
www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article 

Appeals court rules abortion foes' Web site is protected 
Mar. 29, 2001 04:41 ET 
inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/03/29/national/ABOR29.htm

Fed Appeals Court Sides with Abortion Activists 
Mar. 28, 2001 23:10 ET 
www.avn.com/ng/query.cgi?act=detail&in=news&eid=7921

U.S. Court Tosses Major Anti-Abortion Verdict 
Mar. 28, 2001 21:11 ET 
dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20010328/pl/court_abortion_dc_1.html

Anti-Abortion Site Wins Appeal 
Mar. 28, 2001 20:55 ET 
www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42708,00.html

Court: Abortion Threats Protected 
Mar. 28, 2001 16:25 ET 
abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/abortionappeal010328.html
(cached article) 




From declan at well.com  Thu Mar 29 07:57:03 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:57:03 -0500
Subject: Virginia law bans anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010328233036.00a0b530@idiom.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010328233937.00a384e0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010329105506.02166910@mail.well.com>


Bill, you may be right -- I used the Subject: line since I wanted to make a 
point.

But you're arguing the way a defense attorney would, taking the minimalist 
view of this law. A prosecutor is not bound to take that view, and would 
likely take an expansionalist approach.

-Declan

At 11:35 PM 3/28/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Remailers aren't for falsifying email transmission information -
>they're for concealing and deleting that information.
>You're not pretending that your mail originates at foo.remailer.net,
>you're just not telling anybody how it got there.
>Even a nymserver doesn't do that - joepseudonym at foo.nymserver.net
>isn't claiming to really live inside that mail server,
>just to have an address on that server.
>The features in Netscape and Eudora that let you pick your From: info
>might count, and of course Fakemail and similar programs definitely would.
>
>A more interesting issue is how this applies to AOL screen names,
>and also how involved AOL was in the creation of the law,
>since they're largely a Virginia-based company.
>
>At 11:39 PM 03/28/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>See also:
>>http://www.politechbot.com/p-01862.html
>>
>>http://www.spamlaws.com/state/va.html
>>§ 18.2-152.4. Computer trespass; penalty. B. It shall be unlawful for any 
>>person knowingly to sell, give or otherwise distribute or possess with 
>>the intent to sell, give or distribute software which (i) is primarily 
>>designed or produced for the purpose of facilitating or enabling the 
>>falsification of electronic mail transmission information or other 
>>routing information; (ii) has only limited commercially significant 
>>purpose or use other than to facilitate or enable the falsification of 
>>electronic mail transmission information or other routing information; or 
>>(iii) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that 
>>person with that person's knowledge for use in facilitating or enabling 
>>the falsification of electronic mail transmission information or other 
>>routing information.
>>
>
>




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 29 07:57:40 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:57:40 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC6C@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com]
> 
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
> > Yes Jim, I am one to talk. In my (small) town, there are no video
> cameras in
> > the PO. I've looked for them, carefully and repeatedly. (The notion that
> my
> 
> Dude, they feed full video through a fiber cable that fits in the center
> shaft of the clock hands. They put them in fire detectors (and they still
> detect to boot), they put them in the holes of the ceiling tile. You could
> look all day long and not see it.
> 
As usual, Jim relies on selective quotation when it suits his purpose. In
big
city POs, the cameras are out in the open. I stand by my position (stated in

the parts of my letter he deleted) that the absence of easily visible
cameras in 
my small town PO is not evidence of hidden cameras, but evidence that 
there are none.

Of course, he can't give an actual citation for a policy of concealed 
cameras in POs. He'd rather contend that 800,000 USPS civiilian 
employees, most of whom have no security clearance, all have 
maintained the existance of the hidden cameras in 38,000 POs as 
a perfect secret for years, while running 200 billion pieces of mail 
a year past cash-sniffing dogs. 

Jim needs to learn a few things from William of Occam.

Peter Trei




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 29 07:57:40 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:57:40 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC6C@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com]
> 
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
> > Yes Jim, I am one to talk. In my (small) town, there are no video
> cameras in
> > the PO. I've looked for them, carefully and repeatedly. (The notion that
> my
> 
> Dude, they feed full video through a fiber cable that fits in the center
> shaft of the clock hands. They put them in fire detectors (and they still
> detect to boot), they put them in the holes of the ceiling tile. You could
> look all day long and not see it.
> 
As usual, Jim relies on selective quotation when it suits his purpose. In
big
city POs, the cameras are out in the open. I stand by my position (stated in

the parts of my letter he deleted) that the absence of easily visible
cameras in 
my small town PO is not evidence of hidden cameras, but evidence that 
there are none.

Of course, he can't give an actual citation for a policy of concealed 
cameras in POs. He'd rather contend that 800,000 USPS civiilian 
employees, most of whom have no security clearance, all have 
maintained the existance of the hidden cameras in 38,000 POs as 
a perfect secret for years, while running 200 billion pieces of mail 
a year past cash-sniffing dogs. 

Jim needs to learn a few things from William of Occam.

Peter Trei




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 09:09:25 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:09:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFEEGJDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329105309.14587w-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Yup.  We all know that photo recognition technology exists.  What is your
> EVIDENCE that right now, today, in the USA, this technology is on-line, and
> in use such that your claim that someone who buys a money order can be
> identified in three days.  No coulda, woulda, shoulda, but documentation
> that supports this fanciful claim.  I don't think you have that evidence,
> because I don't think it exists.  Jim, as usual, you are talking through
> your hat.  Put up or shut up, big mouth.

What was that sporting event again? How many faces searched for across how
many attendants REAL TIME? I'd venture they were searching n*m way in the
range of 100,000 comparisons a second (and a single photo is a 'm way'
search) and when one considers the base population of the US (300 million)
and the number with records (say 1/3 of that) divided up across 50 states
(remember the MO records reduce your geographic population to a couple of
million, with sex and age you reduce it to say half or quarter that). The
technology exists. Consider the police in London, from previous emails to
this list, about their experiments in using face recognition in
identifying in near real time. Consider the two posts I sent earlier that
demonstrate the unanimous state to state adoption of these sorts of
technologies to integrate their existing database with a variety of
'foreign' data bases over the last several years. Photo identification and
management is a primary goal in every one of them.

No, like it or not, the system is here and with sufficient motivation the
priority to apply could be arranged. They're not going to do it for buying
a nickel bag of pot at the park or running a stop sign. But that isn't my
claim anyway. Hell, taking the photo to the local cops (like the security
guards at the store) will at least determine if you're a regular or not.

If not that might delay it, might not. My suspicion is when we look at any
particular record (and my claim was an 'average' or statistical claim) the
results won't be necessarily predictable.

The primary factor will be if the particular local agency already has
access worked out as a matter of course. If not then it will be delayed as
it goes to the state police or perhaps a different community police force.
They will have their own priorities....

The value of video as a security agent is the fact that visual
identification has become routine.

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Thu Mar 29 08:16:26 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:16:26 -0500
Subject: biochemwomdterror in dc
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010329111608.02108ec0@mail.well.com>


today

DEFENSE National Press Club Newsmaker Luncheon Program on "New Challenges 
to U.S. National Security." Participants: Former Senator Sam Nunn, D-Ga. 
Location: National Press Club, 14th and F Sts., NW, Ballroom. 12:30 p.m. 
Contact: 202-662-7500

DEFENSE Georgetown University Program featuring Gen. James Jones, Marine 
Corps Commandant, discussion the "Investment for National Security". 
Location: Georgetown University, 37th and O Sts., NW, Gaston Hall, 3rd 
Floor Healy Building. 6 p.m. Contact: 202-687-4328 **NEW** 




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 09:43:42 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:43:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com:     Admin request of type /\b u ns\w*b/i at line 4   (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329114257.14587A-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Bad Perl regex!

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:40:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
To: TASIA <tasia51 at webtv.net>
cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: CDR: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <21624-3AC36E21-415 at storefull-215.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329113750.14587y-100000 at einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


Good luck.

For u ns ubscription information please see,

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

or

http://einstein.ssz.com/mailhelp.html

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, TASIA wrote:

> remove my name from cypherpunks mailing list i keep gettingmail from you
> and others on their list, i am  filing harassment charges against
> cypherpunks with the local police

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tom at lemuria.org  Thu Mar 29 01:51:52 2001
From: tom at lemuria.org (Tom)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:51:52 +0200
Subject: ap in action (/. story)
Message-ID: <20010329115152.C14583@lemuria.org>


seems someone put AP into action - and it worked quite well, exactly as
jim predicted, and even without crypto (though without rewards either).

see

http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/28/2130219.shtml


in short: an anti-abortionist website published names and addresses of
doctors who made abortions, then cheered whenever one of them was
killed.
circuit judge wrote: "[...] if their [works] merely encouraged
unrelated terrorists, then their words are protected by the First
Amendment."

I wonder if he'd had the same if the website had listed targets from
the political arena. or judges.


-- 
-- http://www.lemuria.org
-- http://www.Nexus-Project.net
--




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 09:52:40 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:52:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Ninth Circuit ruling re webpage threats
In-Reply-To: <200103291721.JAA08848@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329114809.14587E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:

> You're right AP might not be protected.  But suppose the activity is different. 
>  Suppose its publically stated purpose is some uncontroversial legit activity,
>  such as psychic prediction contests.  Shouldn't the same sorts of protections 
> should apply as in the ruling? The fact that terrorists unknown to the psychics 
> might use the contests for illegal purpose (maybe specifically prohibited 
> by the contest organizers) should cover the majority participants.

Why wouldn't the 'betting' part simply be another aspect of 'speech'? It
demonstrates POV only, neither the lottery operator or the party placing
the bet are acting alone or together to initiate harm to any individual.

There is also no clear mechanism to guarantee the winner is the same party
as the 'executer' of the act. So the lottery operation itself can't as a
result of its operation be shown to contribute to the executer.

So why isn't it 'speech'?

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From brainteaser at subdimension.com  Thu Mar 29 08:53:00 2001
From: brainteaser at subdimension.com (brainteaser)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:53:00 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200103291653.LAA07933@www.subdimension.com>



From tom at lemuria.org  Thu Mar 29 01:55:57 2001
From: tom at lemuria.org (Tom)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:55:57 +0200
Subject: [haceaton@hotmail.com: Re: [dvd-discuss] DeCSS public key, been there, done that]
Message-ID: <20010329115557.D14583@lemuria.org>

after an initial (only half-serious) idea posted by me to the
dvd-discuss mailing list, someone actually created a program to create
secret keys that result in your public key being a compressed version
of decss.


----- Forwarded message from Harold Eaton <haceaton at hotmail.com> -----

From latinwife at samerica.com  Thu Mar 29 10:03:19 2001
From: latinwife at samerica.com (latinwife at samerica.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:03:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Meet & Marry The Latin Goddess of Your Dreams
Message-ID: <200103291803.MAA15455@gfinbursa.inbursa.com.mx>


Removal Instructions are at the end of this letter. Thank you.

Hi, 

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My Warmest Regards
Be Blessed
Luz Sanchez
 

What are you waiting for? Act Now before someone else meets The Girl of Your Dreams before you!





You are receiving this message because you have either subscribed to
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From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Mar 29 09:09:55 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:09:55 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103281635390.21602-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3AC36C63.AC8EB32E@sunder.net>


Ray Dillinger wrote:
> 
> "cash sniffing dogs?" C'mon, jim, I'm pretty paranoid, but that's
> just *out there*. Got a cite?  I haven't read anything from Terri(sp?)
> Smith Tyler lately, and I can use the laugh.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day...

http://www.apbonline.com/newscenter/breakingnews/2000/12/29/customs_seize1229_01.html



-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Mar 29 09:39:10 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:39:10 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <200103291750.MAA25121@barry.mail.mindspring.net>


We've added 60 pages of Jim Bell's filings to an updated
docket and filings:

   http://crytpome.org/jdb032801.htm

This supercedes the file of 23 March 2001.

It appears that these sixty pages were deliberately omitted
from the TIFF images once offered on the WWA web site;
some filings were represented only by a first page, others
not offered at all.

They vividly describe alleged collusion by Jim's PD,
Robert Leen, AUSA Robb London and Judge Jack
Tanner to deny Jim a fair trial. Really chickenshit behavior
by the pack and their rats. Read and puke. 

Watch your back.

One of Jim's motion asks for sanctions and fines against
the troika, to be paid to him until the three are recused:

For Leen, $5,000 per day.
For London, $10,000 per day.
For Tanner, $5,000 per day.





From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 10:47:49 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:47:49 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Appeals court says threats against abortion doctors protected - March 28, 2001
Message-ID: <3AC38355.9EFA6BDB@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/03/28/abortion.appeal.ap/index.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 10:51:20 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:51:20 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Are Kids Turning Your Kids Into Killers?
Message-ID: <3AC38428.9D18C0DB@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/features/01/03/21/2018208.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ericm at lne.com  Thu Mar 29 12:59:07 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:59:07 -0800
Subject: did cryptome.org lose it's name?
Message-ID: <20010329125907.B10992@slack.lne.com>


It looks like cryptome.org's lost it's name:

% ericm(pts/1)# whois crytpome.org
[whois.internic.net]

Whois Server Version 1.3

No match for "CRYTPOME.ORG".

>>> Last update of whois database: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:24:30 EST <<<

The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .ORG, .EDU domains and
Registrars.

% ericm (pts/1)# dig crytpome.org any

; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> crytpome.org any 
;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch
;; got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 4
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0
;; QUERY SECTION:
;;      crytpome.org, type = ANY, class = IN

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
org.                    2h55m7s IN SOA  A.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. hostmaster.nsiregistry.NET. (
                                        2001032801      ; serial
                                        30M             ; refresh
                                        15M             ; retry
                                        1W              ; expiry
                                        1D )            ; minimum


;; Total query time: 5203 msec
;; FROM: slack to SERVER: default -- 127.0.0.1
;; WHEN: Thu Mar 29 12:56:28 2001
;; MSG SIZE  sent: 30  rcvd: 107






Coincidence or conspiracy?


http://216.167.120.50 still works though.



Eric




From declan at well.com  Thu Mar 29 10:12:53 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:12:53 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - A real!!! news story...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329103731.14587v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:43:51AM -0600
References: <20010329104655.D1266@cluebot.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329103731.14587v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010329131253.A4783@cluebot.com>


CNN.com may not have included it because the AP article did not show up
on all feeds and Reuters ran one very late in the day. 

You used the CNN.com "example" as a way to launch into conspiracy
theorizing, and you were wrong.

-Declan


On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:43:51AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Yes, clearly the media is covering up this decision.
> 
> Not at all. My initial point was that it had media coverage. It was simply
> a inquisitive observation about the priority setting mechanisms of the
> COMMERCIAL media and how even 'independent critical' press had economic
> incentives as well. It further demonstrate the asymmetry in the results
> with respect to what is 'important' enough to be 'news'.
> 
> As I've said before in this forum, not all 'cooperative' behaviour is
> necessarily a 'conspiracy', if enough people act in concert the effect is
> the same. In many cases it is the quantity and not the intent that is
> important. Is the 'economic' theory of the 'guiding hand' not the same sort
> of 'conspiracy' theory?
> 
> There's more in heaven and earth...
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>          If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
>          not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From ericm at lne.com  Thu Mar 29 13:19:39 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:19:39 -0800
Subject: did cryptome.org lose it's name?
Message-ID: <20010329131939.C10992@slack.lne.com>


Never mind, I cut-and-pasted John's typo.

Cryptome.org is fine.  Crytpome.org will shortly be
a link to a porn site to capitalize on the flood of
hits from careless users.


Ericm




From latinwife at samerica.com  Thu Mar 29 11:24:42 2001
From: latinwife at samerica.com (latinwife at samerica.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:24:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Meet & Marry The Latin Goddess of Your Dreams
Message-ID: <200103291924.NAA05016@gfinbursa.inbursa.com.mx>


Removal Instructions are at the end of this letter. Thank you.

Hi, 

If you are tired of being Lonely or Living by Yourself or you're frustrated 
by your love life and/or by the women in your culture, I will prove to you 
how you can meet and choose from over 1,000 Loving, Loyal, Drop Dead 
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dining, dancing or just a casual pizza and some great conversation. But sooner or later
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I take great pride in sharing with you that I have had over 600 happy couples get 
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Please click on this link to send us an email and request more information
MailTo:latinwife at samerica.com?Subject=Request_Info_Latin_Goddess

or respond to this letter with the subject line "Reqest Info Latin Goddess" and 
Let's get started making all your dreams come true.

My Warmest Regards
Be Blessed
Luz Sanchez
 

What are you waiting for? Act Now before someone else meets The Girl of Your Dreams before you!





You are receiving this message because you have either subscribed to
one of my ffa-pages, newsletters or we have corresponded in the past. I
respect your privacy. If you do not wish to receive any further messages or
updates, please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "remove" and we
will immediately remove your e-mail address from our database.
To speed up your remove request please make sure you place the word 
remove in the Subject Line, not in the body of the e-mail.
Thank you.







From imtommycat44 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 11:30:46 2001
From: imtommycat44 at yahoo.com (Tom Watkinson)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:30:46 -0600
Subject: Make Money for What You Already do Everyday!!! 
Message-ID: <1754220013429193046790@computer>


From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Thu Mar 29 13:30:22 2001
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:30:22 -0700
Subject: Virginia law bans anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <dc37abcfd37bfa9779818774abb06974@noisebox.remailer.org>


On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>
> See also:
> http://www.politechbot.com/p-01862.html

So, I don't see how this bans anonymous remailers. Unlike the perl script 
you wrote, anonymous remailers don't provide *false* information about the 
source of the message; they just provide incomplete information.

This message *did* come from noisebox.cypherpunks.to, just like the 
headers say.


-MW-




From jim_windle at eudoramail.com  Thu Mar 29 12:05:07 2001
From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:05:07 -0500
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against
  FilteringSoftware[Censorware]
Message-ID: <PAGHNHJDEKOIGAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>


--

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:56:55   Tim May wrote:
>
>These united states have allowed themselves to become something far, 
>far worse than what the colonists were revolting against.
>
In 1801 Thomas Jefferson said:

"Considering the general tendency to multiply offices and dependencies, and to increase expense to the ultimate term of burden which the citizen can bear, it behooves us to avail ourselves of every occasion which presents itself for taking off the surcharge; that it never may be seen here that, after leaving to labor the smallest portion of it earnings on which it can subsist, government shall itself consume the residue or what it was instituted to guard."

I wonder how many policians can be found that agree with this sentiment?




Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com




From alan at clueserver.org  Thu Mar 29 16:39:59 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 16:39:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: did cryptome.org lose it's name?
In-Reply-To: <20010329125907.B10992@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103291638270.20373-100000@clueserver.org>


On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Eric Murray wrote:

> It looks like cryptome.org's lost it's name:
> 
> % ericm(pts/1)# whois crytpome.org
> [whois.internic.net]
> 
> Whois Server Version 1.3
> 
> No match for "CRYTPOME.ORG".

"Dyslexia -- name for it by ask!"

It would help if you spelled it correctly...

"cryptome.org", not "crytpome.org".

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From latestandgreatest at hrpromotions.com  Thu Mar 29 14:45:30 2001
From: latestandgreatest at hrpromotions.com (latestandgreatest at hrpromotions.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:45:30 -0500
Subject: Win a Computer and Palm from worKFORCE
Message-ID: <200103300348.TAA07458@cyberpass.net>

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From mortgagepro55 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 17:47:12 2001
From: mortgagepro55 at yahoo.com (mortgagepro55 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:47:12
Subject: FRESH MORTGAGE LEAD$ AVAILABLE!!    
Message-ID: <200103292349533.SM00223@_[207.47.66.191]_by>

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From GaneshA at icode.com  Thu Mar 29 04:18:17 2001
From: GaneshA at icode.com (Ganesh Acharya)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:48:17 +0530
Subject: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
Message-ID: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA@EXBANGALORE>



Hi,

We are looking forward to conduct a Bulk e-mail (HTML) campaign targeting
the SMEs and hence a bulk e-mail service provider. In this concern I would
like to know a few details:
1) Do you mail HTML mails?
2) In the context of the campaign can you host our micro site as until the
campaign gets over?
3) Do you provide targeted e-mail addresses targeting the SMEs?

I would appreciate if you can mail me the cost involved and any additional
service you provide in the domain of targeted bulk e-mail campaigns, ASAP.
Thanks.

Ganesh Acharya
Marketing Analyst - Web
Icode Inc
Ph: (703) 934 4700 Ext - 294
Fx: (703) 934 4708
mail: ganesha at icode.com
www.icode.com




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 16:49:25 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:49:25 -0600
Subject: The Register - War Driving?
Message-ID: <3AC3D815.8CBC4632@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17976.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 16:51:14 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:51:14 -0600
Subject: The Register - FPGA Computing a 1000x improvement?
Message-ID: <3AC3D882.60CA803C@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/17979.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From latestandgreatest at hrpromotions.com  Thu Mar 29 16:03:00 2001
From: latestandgreatest at hrpromotions.com (latestandgreatest at hrpromotions.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:03:00 -0500
Subject: Win a Computer and Palm from worKFORCE
Message-ID: <200103300513.VAA09248@cyberpass.net>

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From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Mar 29 10:15:49 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:15:49 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Playstation_2_s=F3_a_...?=
Message-ID: <0075d5015181d31WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em
formato HTML, basta clicar aqui.
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/mail/psx2.htm> 
Playstation 2 só a ...
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=6&CategoryId
=41&subCategory=0&productId=9506> 

14.998$00 em 6 vezes
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/site/pagamento1.htm>  

Se você procura a Playstation 2
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=6&CategoryId
=41&subCategory=0&productId=9506>
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=6&CategoryId
=41&subCategory=0&productId=9506> desde o Natal de 2000, alegre-se
porque o Natal 2001 antecipou-se, pois não só lhe oferecemos a
possibilidade de adquirir a sua Playstation 2
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=6&CategoryId
=41&subCategory=0&productId=9506>  sem complicações, bem como lhe
oferecemos a possibilidade de o fazer em 
6 prestações, com 0% de juros
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/site/pagamento1.htm> .

E veja agora por 14.998$00 por mês o que lhe vai chegar a casa:

Capacidades:

- 200 Vezes mais potente que a Playstation 1
- Leitura de DVD (filmes), CDs e DVD ROM
- Compatível com 99% dos Jogos da Playstation 1 e com os seus
periféricos
- Mais de 450 jogos em desenvolvimento
- Possibilidade futura de ligação à internet (BroadBand)...
- Portas multimédia: I-Link, UBS e PCMCIA 
Especificações: 

- CPU: Processador "Emotion Engine" de 128 bits a 295.912 MHZ e 32 MBs
de memória
- Som : 48 canais de som e 2MB de memória 
Ainda tem dúvidas ?
Nós, não. Já comprámos todos...

Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http://www.giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com/> , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços. 
 
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From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 17:18:00 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:18:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Digital Signatures based on secure hashes (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329191740.14587W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



FYI

    ____________________________________________________________________

         If the law is based on precedence, why is the Constitution
         not the final precedence since it's the primary authority?

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:58:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Bram Cohen <bram at gawth.com>
To: People who supposedly write code <coderpunks at toad.com>
Subject: Digital Signatures based on secure hashes

I put together some code for doing digital signatures based on secure
hashes.

Surprisingly, I was able to make it reasonably practical. You can find
well-documented reference code with test cases at -

http://gawth.com/bram/CheapSignaturesBeta.py

I would much appreciate it if anyone would analyze the code - I'm pretty
sure it's secure, since it's use of hashes falls within my area of
expertise, but don't really feel confident until other people have looked
at it as well.

I suspect at least some of the ideas are original, although I haven't
looked at the literature much - I'm particularly proud of the 165 choose
82 trick.

You can find code for running all it's tests at -

http://gawth.com/bram/testtest.py

-Bram Cohen

Soko! puzzle game - http://ch.havenco.com:4201/




From nobody at digilicious.com  Thu Mar 29 19:20:29 2001
From: nobody at digilicious.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:20:29 -0800
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <85979f960b811870a6632761216464f0@digilicious.com>



>www.safeweb.com
>Free.
>Encrypts all data coming from website, but does not 
>obscure URLs in requests.
>Pretty fast. Lots of configurable
>options for cookies, etc.


Too bad it doesn't work at all:


Your browser sent a request that this server could not understand.
Invalid URI in request GET /?placetogo=www.yahoo.com HTTP/1.0

Apache/1.3.12 Server at www.safeweb.com Port 443




From customercare at salvagesale.com  Thu Mar 29 17:21:57 2001
From: customercare at salvagesale.com (customercare at salvagesale.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:21:57 -0600
Subject: New SalvageSale.com Offers (03/29/01)
Message-ID: <0a7a41416021e31SALVAGE_DB@salvage_db.salvagesale>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 17:27:45 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:27:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Wholsalers America-Its Time To Make Some Real Money  (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329192637.14587Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:34:57 -0500
From: Marcus Watts <mdw at umich.edu>
To: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: Wholsalers America-Its Time To Make Some Real Money 

Various have written:
> mkb:
> > > seems feasible to me to keep out a lot of the spam while still
> > > allowing anonymous posters to contribute.
> 
> spiff:
> > see here:
> > 
> > http://www.toad.com/gnu/verio-censorship.html
> 
> oi.  
> 
> i was thinking of it more from a technical standpoint than a political
> one.  a few simple filters would stop a lot of the spam without much
> impact on anonymous posters.  for example, don't allow messages that
> don't list coderpunks at toad.com on the To or Cc headers.

"coderpunks at toad.com" would match To: fields of 26 of the last 60 spam
messages.  No hits in cc: - guess it's not so popular in spam.  There's
also "resent-to" and "resent-cc", and of course bcc (and how do you
spot that?...)  Of course, anything to "Undisclosed.recipients at toad.com"
is pretty glaring.

To be really effective, a spam filter has to look for less obvious
"spam signatures" that aren't so easily spoofed.  For instance, there
was once a spam package that sent out date fields that looked like:
	Date: 1/6/99 9:17:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time
(and since when has PDT applied in january?)  Authors of real mail
programs have to worry about y2k considerations, international users,
and other considerations that never bother spammers.

I've got "a few simple filters" on all mail I receive (actually, more
than a few these days), including that from coderpunks.  Until these
last 2 flurries of spam, I thought I was doing pretty good.  I did
catch a few, but it was like 10%--pathetic.  Now I understand (from the
URL above) why my filters lost it big-time - apparently I'm filtering
the spam that's already been through "a few simple filters" upstream of
me.  It looks like I'll be doing a lot more content based spam
filtering.  I've already got 3 of them going...

I don't know what toad.com says [if anything] when it bounces spam, but
I bounce spam with a bible quote.  Last thing I want to tell the
spammer is how to get around the filter.  I hope instead they'll pull
my address from their list as "undeliverable".  Unfortunately, I also
bounce the occasional legitimate mail with a bible quote - them's the breaks.

I hate to think this might all be due to some silly dispute with
an ISP -- things ought not to get to that point.

One random thought: I wonder if we've created any of this problem
ourselves?  For instance, if any of us has an automated script that
sends a spam complaint off to the "responsible parties", it's
possible those scripts have decided it's toad.com's fault the spam
got sent, and fired an inflamatory message off to verio...
I know I don't do this (I no longer get mad, I get even.  My filters
protect 20,000 mailboxes...), but perhaps others of us?

> i'm sorry to be filling up the list with anti-spam talk rather than
> crypto talk.  i did try to contact the moderator directly.

Me to (well, except I didn't try to contact the moderator--which is um,
don't we have more than one?, um...)  That's the problem - both when
the spam overwhelms legitimate content, and when talk turns to dealing
with the problem.  I had proposed the "few simple filters" approach on
the list a long long while back--wish it had been done sooner so the
spammers wouldn't have had quite so many CD-roms out with coderpunks@
on it.  The latest round of bounces had me seriously wondering about
just was happening (had space aliens swapped the brains of Spamford
and Gilmore?)

A more "interesting" way to do the "simple filter" approach (and one
that might actually have some real relevance to the purpose of this
list!) might be something that actually uses cryptography.  For
instance, one solution might be to have a web server that supplies a
cryptographic "token", good for one mailing through the mailing list.
Simply cut & paste somewhere in the body of the message, and the mail
list software could remove the token before delivery.  It can even be
anonymous (web server hands it out to anyone) - the idea here isn't
actually to secure or authenticate the content, but simply to put an
obstacle that prevents automated scripts, regular mmf spammers and the
usual lot of scum from actually posting anything to the list.  If
mail missing the token is delivered to the moderator(s) even mail
missing the magic token could be forwarded if it were relevant,
although I don't think the moderators would want to encourage this
as a matter of habit.

					-Marcus




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Mar 29 19:30:20 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:30:20 -0800
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <3AC3F8E6.7157186D@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
>http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm

There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for 
defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall suggesting a 
new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear with veils and 
masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to anti-mask laws in effect.

steve




From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com  Thu Mar 29 21:09:02 2001
From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:09:02 -0800
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E0676E6@MISSERVER>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Mar 29 19:09:26 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:09:26 -0600
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
Message-ID: <3AC3F8E6.7157186D@ssz.com>


http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 29 08:42:21 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:42:21 +0500
Subject: CNN.com - A real!!! news story...
In-Reply-To: <20010329104655.D1266@cluebot.com>
References: <3AC34D8F.1D97791F@ssz.com>
 <3AC34D8F.1D97791F@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329213912.00d56be0@flex.com>


No Shit.

Jim, take your damned meds, get off the high horse, and SHADDUP.

Nice list of news outlets, Declan, maybe Jim would like to address the
obvious conspiratorial implications of Ted Turner insulting xtians by
asking if that was dirt on their foreheads, on Ash Wednesday.

Harrumph.

Reese

At 10:46 AM 3/29/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:58:23AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >> Why does CNN have nothing on the 9th Circuit ruling related to 'free 
speech'
 >> expression of 'violent acts'? Is 'civil liberties' not a news worthy point?
 >> Is the abortion issue not important?
 >>
 >> http://www.cnn.com/
 >>
 >> And finally, why will 'independent media' outlets not point this irony out?
 >
 >
 >Yes, clearly the media is covering up this decision.
 >
 >-Declan
 >
 >Abortion 'Hit List' Protected, Court Says
 >Mar. 29, 2001 07:30 ET
 >www.sltrib.com/03292001/nation_w/83845.htm
 >
 >Anti-Abortion Verdict Overturned
 >Mar. 29, 2001 05:53 ET
 >cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,282235-412,00.shtml
 >
 >Threats against abortion doctors protected, judges rule
 >Mar. 29, 2001 05:53 ET
 >www.kcstar.com/item/pages/home.pat,local/37753cdb.328,.html
 >
 >Court: Web site attacking abortion doctors protected
 >Mar. 29, 2001 05:51 ET
 >seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/SeattleTimes.woa/wa/gotoArticle
 >?zsection_id=268448413&t...
 >
 >Huge Verdict Voided / $107 million judgment against anti-abortion activists
 >dumped
 >Mar. 29, 2001 05:50 ET
 >www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/28/MN6244
 >5.DTL
 >
 >Court upholds abortion doctor 'wanted list'
 >Mar. 29, 2001 05:44 ET
 >www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/epaper/editions/today/news_a32c5d7664afd1
 >600051.html
 >
 >Appeals Court Backs Anti-Abortionists' Web Postings
 >Mar. 29, 2001 05:35 ET
 >www.newsbytes.com/news/01/163787.html
 >
 >Appeals Court Overturns $109 Million Verdict Against Anti-Abortion Web Site
 >Mar. 29, 2001 05:05 ET
 >www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article
 >
 >Appeals court rules abortion foes' Web site is protected
 >Mar. 29, 2001 04:41 ET
 >inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/03/29/national/ABOR29.htm
 >
 >Fed Appeals Court Sides with Abortion Activists
 >Mar. 28, 2001 23:10 ET
 >www.avn.com/ng/query.cgi?act=detail&in=news&eid=7921
 >
 >U.S. Court Tosses Major Anti-Abortion Verdict
 >Mar. 28, 2001 21:11 ET
 >dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20010328/pl/court_abortion_dc_1.html
 >
 >Anti-Abortion Site Wins Appeal
 >Mar. 28, 2001 20:55 ET
 >www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42708,00.html
 >
 >Court: Abortion Threats Protected
 >Mar. 28, 2001 16:25 ET
 >abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/abortionappeal010328.html
 >(cached article) 




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 29 08:47:34 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:47:34 +0500
Subject: CNN.com - A real!!! news story...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329103731.14587v-100000@einstein.ssz.com
 >
References: <20010329104655.D1266@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329214257.00d41af0@flex.com>


At 10:43 AM 3/29/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >
 >> Yes, clearly the media is covering up this decision.
 >
 >Not at all. My initial point was that it had media coverage.

Your initial claim was that CNN wasn't covering it, ergo, they did not
consider it to be newsworthy, and that independent media outlets (Declan
did not list primarily, independent news sources), were missing an irony
that MayOrMayNot exist outside of Choatian Space.

Take your damned meds.

Reese


From bear at sonic.net  Thu Mar 29 21:49:22 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:49:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Starting a Religion is not something to do lightly
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103292116400.30524-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Steve Schear wrote:

>At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
>>http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
>
>There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for 
>defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall suggesting a 
>new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear with veils and 
>masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to anti-mask laws in effect.


You can start a new religion which upholds anonymity as holy 
(like all those monastic brothers who gave up their worldly 
identities and names), but to pass it in reaction to this 
sort of thing would identify it, in most courts, as something 
that was done for temporal considerations rather than as a 
"sincere" religious movement.  

The whole "temporal considerations" thing wears off after a 
while, but don't expect to get any respect in courts of law 
until you've been at it for at least a dozen years and have 
a solid and well-documented position in some kind of 
philosophy and, optionally, theology, which devotees of your 
new religion have written and published.  

Performing works that benefit the public (such as operating 
charity kitchens, crisis lines, or shelters for the persecuted-
but-not-prosecuted masses) can add a bunch of credibility to a 
religious movement; That's the sort of thing that seems to 
have elevated the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence in San 
Francisco from being a joke to being taken seriously enough 
to be declared a "heretical sect" by the catholic pope.*1

In short, establishing a new religion - and doing it properly - 
would be hard work.  Possibly very fulfilling work, but hard.
I think to do it with integrity, you'd have to put serious 
effort into caring for the spiritual needs of the members.
And the masks would have to mean something, personally, that 
tied in with the philosophical/theological position you 
espoused.  

I have from time to time wistfully considered the calling of 
a "Holy Man", but, well, Whatever my religion is I'm pretty 
sure I'm the only one and I don't really believe that missionary 
work is respectful.  Puts a damper on the whole "ministry" 
idea.  ;-)


				Bear

---
*1:  For those who are *not* students of religious history, 
charges of "Heresy" are the Big Guns of the Catholic Church. 
It gets used about once or twice every three or four centuries, 
and in the past has only been leveled at groups which are a 
clear and present danger to the continued existence of the 
Catholic Church.  Whole countries used to go to war over 
such pronouncements, to protect the church from impending 
annihilation.  Groups that do not pose a clear and present 
danger to the continued existence of the Catholic church, in 
all  previous centuries, have been considered to be merely "in 
Error" rather than "Heretics".  Everybody's wondering if the 
pope knows something we don't about the fragile infrastructure 
of the Church and the nearness of its possible demise, or 
if he's just overreacting because the SOPI involves openly 
gay men dressing in vaguely catholic-looking nun's habits 
and performing good works. 





From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Mar 29 21:51:14 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:51:14 -0800
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E0676E6@MISSERVER>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329215048.04234e40@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0800, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>What about Islam?

What about men?


>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Schear [mailto:schear at lvcm.com]
>Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 7:30 PM
>To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>Subject: Re: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
>
>
>At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
>
>There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for
>defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall
>suggesting a
>new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear with veils
>and
>masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to anti-mask laws in
>effect.
>
>steve
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
>
>iQA/AwUBOsQU7Bj6oMyeDxZoEQJnxwCg/2OgeNkVGowR/t0py95YmZx03W8AoIGa
>uybx4PU/BUVsYW9NMMBNT54s
>=nOwa
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Mar 29 21:52:34 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:52:34 -0800
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10103300014210.30119-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329215124.0422feb0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 12:15 AM 3/30/01 -0500, dmolnar wrote:


>Well, there's always the Arab version of Islam...if you happen to be a
>woman, anyway.

I'm not. That's why an alternative is sought.

>Not exactly "new."




>-David
>
>On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Steve Schear wrote:
>
> > At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
> > >http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
> >
> > There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for
> > defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall suggesting a
> > new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear with veils and
> > masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to anti-mask laws in 
> effect.
> >
> > steve
> >
> >




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Mar 29 21:53:32 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:53:32 -0800
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <v04220802b6e9ca330ab8@[198.4.94.197]>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
 <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329215237.04230950@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 12:32 AM 3/30/01 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>Steve Schear <schear at lvcm.com> wrote:
>>At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
>>>http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
>>
>>There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for 
>>defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall suggesting a 
>>new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear with veils and 
>>masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to anti-mask laws in effect.
>>
>>steve
>
>
>Just make Halloween a year long celebration.

I doubt it would get strong consideration from a religious standpoint.


>Regards,  Matt-
>
>
>**************************************************************************
>Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
>Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
>on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
>Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
>(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
>**************************************************************************




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 29 08:55:59 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:55:59 +0500
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering
  Software[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <200103291730.MAA29751@divert.sendon.net>
References: <a05010404b6e8700459a1@[207.111.241.172]>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net>
 <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]>
 <20010328232747.C7678@cluebot.com>
 <a05010404b6e8700459a1@[207.111.241.172]>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329215224.00d3c100@flex.com>


At 06:10 AM 3/30/01 +0000, Steve Thompson wrote:
 >
 >Quoting Tim May (tcmay at got.net):
 >> (Many estimate the tax burden to be in this ballpark, considering
 >> that income to non-governmental agencies is taxed at a high rate
 >> (usually the max, 50 % combined federal and state), then the income
 >> and dividends to employees and shareholders is further taxed at a
 >> high rate (30-45%). Tack on property taxes, utility taxes, 8% sales
 >> taxes, energy taxes, special use permit taxes, boat taxes, luxury
 >> taxes....)
 >
 >That's quite an impressive haul.  How do they do it?

xTians say, the devil's greatest trick was convincing the world that
he did not exist.

Parley-vous "hidden taxes?"

 >> These united states have allowed themselves to become something far,
 >> far worse than what the colonists were revolting against.
 >>
 >> A kleptocracy, with a Potemkin facade of freedom.
 >
 >Well, Tim, it isn't a facacde so much as a prevalent attitude.  As
 >far as I can tell, the majority of people play a big game of make-
 >believe.  They act as though they are free while voluntarily limiting
 >their behaviour to a very narrow range.
 >
 >Fortunately, there's enough entertainment out there to keep everyone
 >happy.

It works on the honor system - please honor the system.  Your own private
entertainment is optional.

Reese

 >Regards,
 >
 >Steve
 >
 >--
 >Cephalopodia is the key insight.

                      Shop Smart!  Shop S-Mart!




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Mar 29 22:00:41 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:00:41 -0800
Subject: ecash tech layoffs
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330001329.024aadf0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329215718.04233d80@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 12:14 AM 3/30/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>http://www.localbusiness.com/City/0,1123,SEA,00.html
>
>EXCLUSIVE BOTHELL, Wash., Mar. 29 (LocalBusiness.com) -- ECash 
>Technologies Inc. has cut its workforce from 65 to 40 due to a "narrowing" 
>of its business, John Filby, president and CEO for eCash, told 
>LocalBusiness.com today.

The only surprise is that they are still around.  Despite the early hoopla 
eCash did little more than dust off DigiCash's old business model.  Nothing 
like a foolish consistency to guide one on the road to failure.

steve




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 29 09:05:58 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:05:58 +0500
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <3AC3F8E6.7157186D@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329220447.00d49870@flex.com>


At 07:30 PM 3/29/01 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
 >At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
 >>http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
 >
 >There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for
 >defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall suggesting a
 >new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear with veils and
 >masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to anti-mask laws in effect.

Islam imposes this on the porkable sex already.




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Mar 29 09:07:26 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:07:26 +0500
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E0676E6@MISSERVER>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329220644.00d2fb30@flex.com>


At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0800, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
 >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 >Hash: SHA1
 >
 >What about Islam?

they only apply it to the porkable sex, men are not beholden, heh,,,

 >- -----Original Message-----
 >From: Steve Schear [mailto:schear at lvcm.com]
 >Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 7:30 PM
 >To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
 >Subject: Re: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
 >
 >
 >At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
 >>http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
 >
 >There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for
 >defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall
 >suggesting a
 >new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear with veils
 >and
 >masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to anti-mask laws in
 >effect.
 >
 >steve
 >
 >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
 >Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
 >
 >iQA/AwUBOsQU7Bj6oMyeDxZoEQJnxwCg/2OgeNkVGowR/t0py95YmZx03W8AoIGa
 >uybx4PU/BUVsYW9NMMBNT54s
 >=nOwa
 >-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 29 19:38:26 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:38:26 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC73@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Anonymous[SMTP:nobody at digilicious.com] wrote
[Peter Trei wrote:]
> >www.safeweb.com
> >Free.
> >Encrypts all data coming from website, but does not 
> >obscure URLs in requests.
> >Pretty fast. Lots of configurable
> >options for cookies, etc.
> 
> 
> Too bad it doesn't work at all:
> 
> 
> Your browser sent a request that this server could not understand.
> Invalid URI in request GET /?placetogo=www.yahoo.com HTTP/1.0
> 
> Apache/1.3.12 Server at www.safeweb.com Port 443
> 
Curious. I just accessed www.yahoo.com thru Safeweb with no
problem whatsoever. I'm using Netscape Communicator 4.72 on
an NT 4 box




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Mar 29 19:38:26 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:38:26 -0500
Subject: semi-anon test from a throwaway account part deux
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EC73@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> Anonymous[SMTP:nobody at digilicious.com] wrote
[Peter Trei wrote:]
> >www.safeweb.com
> >Free.
> >Encrypts all data coming from website, but does not 
> >obscure URLs in requests.
> >Pretty fast. Lots of configurable
> >options for cookies, etc.
> 
> 
> Too bad it doesn't work at all:
> 
> 
> Your browser sent a request that this server could not understand.
> Invalid URI in request GET /?placetogo=www.yahoo.com HTTP/1.0
> 
> Apache/1.3.12 Server at www.safeweb.com Port 443
> 
Curious. I just accessed www.yahoo.com thru Safeweb with no
problem whatsoever. I'm using Netscape Communicator 4.72 on
an NT 4 box




From declan at well.com  Thu Mar 29 21:14:03 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 00:14:03 -0500
Subject: ecash tech layoffs
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330001329.024aadf0@mail.well.com>



http://www.localbusiness.com/City/0,1123,SEA,00.html

EXCLUSIVE BOTHELL, Wash., Mar. 29 (LocalBusiness.com) -- ECash Technologies 
Inc. has cut its workforce from 65 to 40 due to a "narrowing" of its 
business, John Filby, president and CEO for eCash, told LocalBusiness.com 
today.




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Thu Mar 29 21:15:02 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 00:15:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10103300014210.30119-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




Well, there's always the Arab version of Islam...if you happen to be a
woman, anyway. Not exactly "new." 

-David

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Steve Schear wrote:

> At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
> 
> There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for 
> defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall suggesting a 
> new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear with veils and 
> masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to anti-mask laws in effect.
> 
> steve
> 
> 




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Mar 29 21:32:28 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 00:32:28 -0500
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <v04220802b6e9ca330ab8@[198.4.94.197]>


Steve Schear <schear at lvcm.com> wrote:
>At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
>>http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
>
>There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for 
>defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall 
>suggesting a new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear 
>with veils and masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to 
>anti-mask laws in effect.
>
>steve


Just make Halloween a year long celebration.

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From MarketPlaceNews at newsletter.photopoint.com  Thu Mar 29 21:04:41 2001
From: MarketPlaceNews at newsletter.photopoint.com (MarketPlaceNews at newsletter.photopoint.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:04:41 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Bring home a digital camera for only $39.99
Message-ID: <200103300504.f2U54ft24657@sdev10.photopoint.com>

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From Ruthlesness at telstra.com  Fri Mar 30 01:11:34 2001
From: Ruthlesness at telstra.com (Ruthlesness at telstra.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:11:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200103300911.BAA27778@toad.com>





From reports at ipoexpressemail.com  Fri Mar 30 01:29:50 2001
From: reports at ipoexpressemail.com (EDGAR Online)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:29:50 -0800
Subject: IPO Express: Daily News 03/29/01
Message-ID: <200103300929.BAA25450@mailhost.ostman.com>


******************************************************************************
        This IPO Express report is provided by EDGAR Online, sent to you as
a subscriber to EDGAR Online Premium. If you wish to discontinue receiving
reports or wish to change your email options, go to:

         http://www.edgar-online.com/auth/updateinfo.asp
******************************************************************************

IPO NEWS

* Galyan's Trading Co Inc filed for IPO. [NASDAQ:GLYN]
* Shamrock Logistics LP  increased its price from $19-$21 to $22-$24. [NYSE:UDL]

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/iponews.asp for more news.

/--------------ADVERTISEMENT----------------\
Purchase Business/Credit Reports from Dun & Bradstreet on over 11 million
U.S. businesses. Click on the "Resources" link when you look up SEC filings
for any public company, or search by company name and state at
http://www.edgar.telebase.com.
\-------------------------------------------/

EXPECTED PRICINGS

* KINGDOM VISION NETWORK INC      MAR30 - CLOSING      [OTCBB:-TBA-]
* LORELEI CORP                    MAR30 - CLOSING      [N/A:N/A]
* ONEDENTIST RESOURCES INC        MAR30 - CLOSING      [OTCBB:WEBD]
* PETSVETSANDYOU.COM              MAR30 - CLOSING      [-TBA-:-TBA-]
* VENTURELIST.COM INC             MAR30                [OTCBB:-TBA-]
* SELECT MEDICAL CORP             APR2-3               [NASDAQ:SLMC]

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/upcoming.asp for more expected pricings.

POPULAR IPO COMPANIES

* AGERE SYSTEMS                  [P]   [NYSE:AGR, AGRA]
* THE SMITH & WOLLENSKY RESTAURANT GROUP INC       [NASDAQ:SWRG]
* KRAFT FOODS INC                      [NYSE:KFT]
* LOUDCLOUD INC                  [P]   [NASDAQ:LDCL]
* RED BELL BREWING CO                  [OTCBB:RDBL]
* ODYSSEY RE HOLDINGS CORP             [NYSE:ORH]
* SELECT MEDICAL CORP                  [NASDAQ:SLMC]
* NATUS MEDICAL INC                    [NASDAQ:BABY]
* AFC ENTERPRISES INC            [P]   [NASDAQ:AFCE]
* BRIAZZ INC                           [NASDAQ:BRZZ]

[P] Denotes that the company is already priced.

SHORT-TERM LOCKUP EXPIRATIONS

Company                                              Priced Days   Expires
IMAGEWARE SYSTEMS INC (IWU, IW, IWWS)               3/31/00  365 3/31/01*
E-CENTIVES INC (ECEN)                               10/2/00  180 3/31/01*
INFORMAX INC (INMX)                                 10/2/00  180 3/31/01*
OPLINK COMMUNICATIONS INC (OPLK)                    10/3/00  180   4/1/01
KOSAN BIOSCIENCES INC (KOSN)                        10/4/00  180   4/2/01
ADVANCED SWITCHING COMMUNICATIONS INC (ASCX)        10/4/00  180   4/2/01
TNPC INC  (NPW)                                     10/4/00  180   4/2/01
COACH INC (COH)                                     10/4/00  180   4/2/01
ASIA GLOBAL CROSSING (AGCX)                         10/6/00  180   4/4/01
THERMOELASTIC TECHNOLOGIES INC  (TMRO)              10/9/00  180   4/7/01
WATSON WYATT & COMPANY HOLDINGS (WW)               10/10/00  180   4/8/01
POZEN INC (POZN)                                   10/10/00  180   4/8/01
W-H ENERGY SERVICES INC  (WHES)                    10/10/00  180   4/8/01
INTROGEN THERAPEUTICS INC (INGN)                   10/11/00  180   4/9/01
SYNPLICITY INC (SYNP)                              10/12/00  180  4/10/01
SINOPEC  (SNP)                                     10/12/00  180  4/10/01

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/lockup.asp for more lockups.

SHORT-TERM QUIET PERIOD EXPIRATIONS

Company                                                 IPO   Expires
STELMAR SHIPPING (SJH)                               3/6/01 3/31/01*
SEATTLE GENETICS INC (SGEN)                          3/7/01   4/1/01
ENCORE ACQUISITION CO (EAC)                          3/9/01   4/3/01
LOUDCLOUD INC (LDCL)                                 3/9/01   4/3/01
SUREBEAM CORP (SURE)                                3/16/01  4/10/01

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/quiet.asp for more expirations.

Data and information is provided for informational purposes only, and is
not intended for trading purposes.  Neither EDGAR Online nor any of its content
providers shall be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for
any actions taken in reliance thereon.  By accessing the IPO Express site,
the user agrees not to redistribute the information found therein.

-----ADVERTISEMENT----------------------
Purchase Business/Credit Reports from Dun & Bradstreet on over 11 million
U.S. businesses. Click on the "Resources" link when you look up SEC filings
for any public company, or search by company name and state at
http://www.edgar.telebase.com.
----------------------------------------




From stevet at sendon.net  Thu Mar 29 22:10:04 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 06:10:04 +0000
Subject: Gun Activists Have A Stake Against Filtering Software[Censorware]
In-Reply-To: <a05010404b6e8700459a1@[207.111.241.172]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net> <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]> <20010328232747.C7678@cluebot.com> <a05010404b6e8700459a1@[207.111.241.172]>
Message-ID: <200103291730.MAA29751@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Tim May (tcmay at got.net):
> (Many estimate the tax burden to be in this ballpark, considering 
> that income to non-governmental agencies is taxed at a high rate 
> (usually the max, 50 % combined federal and state), then the income 
> and dividends to employees and shareholders is further taxed at a 
> high rate (30-45%). Tack on property taxes, utility taxes, 8% sales 
> taxes, energy taxes, special use permit taxes, boat taxes, luxury 
> taxes....)

That's quite an impressive haul.  How do they do it?
 
> These united states have allowed themselves to become something far, 
> far worse than what the colonists were revolting against.
> 
> A kleptocracy, with a Potemkin facade of freedom.

Well, Tim, it isn't a facacde so much as a prevalent attitude.  As far as I
can tell, the majority of people play a big game of make-believe.  They act as
though they are free while voluntarily limiting their behaviour to a very
narrow range.

Fortunately, there's enough entertainment out there to keep everyone happy.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Cephalopodia is the key insight.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar 30 05:25:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:25:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: SPAM
In-Reply-To: <B6EA0941.4E8C%danielf@thecreativepartnership.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010330072435.14587d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



You're on the 'wrong' list...

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Daniel Farnworth wrote:

> Is this level of spam normal for this list? I have been on list for 18hrs
> now, have received 8-10 ucm's and not one genuine mail???
> -- 
> The Penguin Factory
> pingu at thepenguinfactory.co.uk
> 
> ...computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as
> kids,  we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening
> to repetitive music...
> 
> PGP Public Key available
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar 30 05:34:39 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:34:39 -0600
Subject: The Register - A Brit's view of the 'abortion speech' ruling
Message-ID: <3AC48B6F.58E4343C@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17988.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Mar 30 07:52:15 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:52:15 -0800
Subject: Ninth Circuit ruling re webpage threats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103290845300.12129-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <200103290444.UAA22047@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010330075215.007fe460@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:46 AM 3/29/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:
>
>>I think Judge Kozinski's ruling can also be easily read in support of free 
>>speech by operator and participants in anonymous betting pools with
political 
>>interests.
>
>
>I think you are wrong.  The neuremberg files website didn't *create* 
>a motive for killing.  Assassination Politics would.  That is a key 
>difference.
>
>				Bear

Well the celebrity deathwatch site provides material rewards for the best
'guesses', and has been running unchallenged for some time.  The site
itself pays you IIRC
---whereas an AP machine is more an EBay, merely supporting its clients'
content.  I think the deathwatch site also requires that winners had
nothing to do with the deaths they predicted ---though they have no such
investigatory capacities.

Creating motives? The politicians do that themselves.  And financial reward
for guessing
is hardly illegal ---in fact, the State runs the gambling around here.  But
monopoly
is unnatural, no? 

......
"Advocacy and belief go hand in hand. For there can be no true freedom of
mind if thoughts are secure only when they are pent up." -- US Justice
William O. Douglas









 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Mar 30 08:17:02 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:17:02 -0800
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <3AC3F8E6.7157186D@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010330081702.007ff8d0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:30 PM 3/29/01 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
>>http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
>
>There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for 
>defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall suggesting a 
>new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear with veils and 
>masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to anti-mask laws in effect.

I've pointed this out before, but many randoms (esp females) wear false hair
and facial camo.  Add some Jackie-O accoutrements and you've got your
'religious worshippers' (and some *are* religious about wearing this,
tithing significant fractions of their income) on the streets already.

.....

The red-light-camera folks don't send a ticket if they can't make out
your face (judges demand it); one of their staff commented that they toss
out pictures with
low baseball caps (etc.) obscuring the faces, but they didn't think people
do that *intentionally* to beat traffic cameras.  (LA Times story last week
or so)

.....

Personally I like Subcommander Marcos's Subgenius/Terrorist look... pipe
and ski mask..









 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Mar 30 08:18:35 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:18:35 -0800
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329215237.04230950@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <v04220802b6e9ca330ab8@[198.4.94.197]>
 <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
 <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010330081835.007ffb50@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:53 PM 3/29/01 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>Just make Halloween a year long celebration.
>
>I doubt it would get strong consideration from a religious standpoint.
>
>
>>Regards,  Matt-

In some places, yes, but we have a constitution that prohibits
favoring one over another.  Theoretically.





 






  







From bpayne37 at home.com  Fri Mar 30 07:40:21 2001
From: bpayne37 at home.com (bpayne37 at home.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:40:21 -0700
Subject: recusal of all New Mexico officers in Morales and Payne cases
Message-ID: <3AC4A8E5.FAD3355D@home.com>


http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/




From BF at farc.org  Fri Mar 30 08:50:58 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:50:58 -0800
Subject: some southerners need killin'
Message-ID: <3AC4B971.E882799B@farc.org>



State funding makes this a censorship case; religion makes it a freedom
of- case too.


Mar 30, 2001 - 07:37 AM

               Florida University Under Fire for Play With
               Gay Christ Character
               The Associated Press

               BOCA RATON, Fla. (AP) - Several state lawmakers
threatened to
               cut state funding of Florida Atlantic University programs
because
               its theater department is staging a play featuring a gay
Christ
               character.

               Corpus Christi, which opened Wednesday at FAU, chronicles
a
               Christlike character named Joshua who is growing up gay
in
               modern-day Texas. The story parallels parts of the
Gospels.

               A kiss between Joshua and a character named Judas is
similar to
               the kiss the biblical Judas used to identify Jesus to the
Romans.

               "For anyone who's a Christian, it's very offensive," said
state Sen.
               Debby Sanderson, whose district includes Florida
Atlantic.

               School officials said they would allow the play to finish
this
               weekend's run.

               "It's a matter of academic freedom," university
spokeswoman Lynn
               Laurenti said. She said top administrators did not know
of the
               play's content until this week.

               Sanderson and other senators said Thursday they would
read the
               play and then decide what action, if any, to take. Last
year, the
               school received $112 million from the state.

               Corpus Christi, written by Terrence McNally, debuted on
Broadway
               in 1998. It was met with fierce protests from Roman
Catholic
               groups.




From BF at farc.org  Fri Mar 30 09:10:53 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:10:53 -0800
Subject: refs on "What is a publisher"
Message-ID: <3AC4BE1C.8F4196B2@farc.org>


This post contains refs to answers to the question, "What is published?"
for
patent (prior art) reasons.   You may find it also bears on "Who is a
publisher?"
(with accompanying questions about their 'privledges' if any).

(FYI;  Forwarded from a private list.)


> any more word on what it takes to be considered "published"?


First, I found a convincing legal analysis article. Reading it,
it looks like you can just start a website called something like
_Journal of
Cool Stuff We Noticed This Week While Getting Our Work Done_, using
plenty
of relevant meta tags and so on for each article you publish. From
http://www2.ari.net/foley/epub.html ...

----
Subsequently, the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit verified that

public accessibility is "the touchstone in determining whether a
reference
constitutes a 'printed publication'" (In re Hall, 228 USPQ 453, 455
[Fed.
Cir. 1986]).


Accordingly, the current test for determining whether a disclosure is a
printed publication focuses on the accessibility of the information
rather
than on the form of the alleged prior art. Therefore, the fact that a
reference is "printed" electronically, rather than on paper, is relevant
to
the printed publication determination only to the extent that
publication in
an electronic form may affect public availability.


Internet publications are particularly amenable to the current printed
publication test. Any information posted on Internet becomes accessible
to
interested parties throughout the world. Moreover, servers that store
the
posted information also can provide the date that the information became

accessible.
-----
-------


Next, I found something both recent and quasi-official! From a WIPO
(international law) report in November 2000 summarizing U.S. law on the
issue. Most interestingly, the report explains that official U.S.
searches
for prior art DO include scouring the web in a couple defined ways:

-----
B.       United States of America

21. 35 United States Code (U.S.C.) Section 102(a) and (b) provides:

         "§ 102  Conditions for patentability; novelty and loss of right
to
patents

         A person shall be entitled to a patent unless --

                  (a) the invention was known or used by others in this
country, or patented or
         described in a printed publication in this or a foreign
country,
before the invention
         thereof by the applicant for patent, or

                  (b) the invention was patented or described in a
printed
publication in this or a
         foreign country or in public use or on sale in this country,
more
than one year prior to
         the date of the application for patent in the United States, or

                  ..."

22. The law does not contain any special provision concerning disclosure
on
the Internet
and its prior art effect.  However, the "Manual of Patent Examining
Procedure (MPEP),"
issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO),
provides
guidelines with
respect to the status of electronic publications as prior art and
Internet
searching.  In addition,
the USPTO has published an "Internet Usage Policy"7 in order to provide
guidance to its
employees regarding the use of the Internet for official USPTO business.

The "Policy" covers
the usage of the Internet to search for information concerning patent
applications.

         (a)  "Printed publication"

23. 35 U.S.C. Section 102(a) and (b) states that a "printed publication"

constitutes prior art.
In a general sense, a reference is proven to be a "printed publication"
upon
a satisfactory
showing that such document has been disseminated or otherwise made
available
to the extent
that persons interested and ordinarily skilled in the subject matter or
art,
exercising reasonable
diligence, can locate it.8

24. MPEP §2128 confirms that an electronic publication, including an
online
database or
Internet publication, is considered to be a "printed publication" within
the
meaning of
35 U.S.C. 102(a) and (b), provided the publication was accessible to
persons
concerned with
the art to which the document relates.  Indeed, in In re Wyer, the court

stated:  "Accordingly,
whether information is printed, handwritten, or on microfilm or a
magnetic
disc or tape, etc.,
the one who wishes to characterize the information, in whatever form it
may
be, as a `printed
publication' *** should produce sufficient proof of its dissemination or

that it has otherwise
been available and accessible to persons concerned with the art to which
the
document relates
and thus most likely to avail themselves of its contents" (citation
omitted).9

25. As regards the level of public accessibility required, the court
ruled
that a single copy of
a doctoral thesis indexed and shelved in a library is sufficiently
accessible to the public to
constitute prior art as a "printed publication."10  Even if access to
the
library is restricted, a
reference will constitute a "printed publication" as long as a
presumption
is raised that the
portion of the public concerned with the art would know of the
invention.11
However, in In re
Cronyn, where doctoral theses were shelved and indexed by index cards
filed
alphabetically
by student name and kept in a library and where the index cards only
listed
the student names
and titles of the theses, two of three judges held that the students'
theses
were not accessible
to the public, since they could only be found if the researcher's name,
which bears no
relationship to the subject of the thesis, was known.12

26. However, if documents, intended to remain confidential, are
distributed
internally
within an organization, they are not "printed publications" no matter
how
many copies are
distributed.13

         (b)  Date of availability

27. According to MPEP §2128, prior art disclosures on the Internet or an

online database
are considered to be publicly available as of the date the item was
publicly
posted.  If the
publication does not include a publication date (or retrieval date), it
cannot be relied upon as
prior art under 35 U.S.C. 102(a) or (b), although it may be relied upon
to
provide evidence
regarding the state of the art.

28. As a general rule, in order to establish the date on which a certain

publication became
accessible to the public, evidence showing routine business practices
can be
relied upon to
prove accessibility.  Specific evidence showing a particular date of
cataloging and shelving of
the publication is not always necessary.14

         (c)  Citation

29. According to Article 10 of the "Internet Usage Policy," all Patent
Organization users of
the Internet for patent application searches shall document their search

strategies in
accordance with the practices and procedures established in MPEP §719.05

subsection I.(F).
The MPEP sets up detailed rules for recordation of the field of search
and
search results by
the examiners.  Office copies of an electronic document must be retained
if
the same
documents may not be available for retrieval in the future.15  The MPEP
stipulates that this is
especially important for sources such as the Internet and online
databases.

30. As regards the format of the citation of an electronic document that
can
be retrieved
from an online source or sources found on electronic storage media, the
USPTO follows the
WIPO Standard ST.14 (Recommendation for the Inclusion of References
Cited in
Patent
Documents).16

         (d)  Search via the Internet and confidentiality

31. Article 9 of the "Internet Usage Policy" states that, when the
Internet
is used to search,
browse, or retrieve information relating to a patent application, other
than
a reissue
application or reexamination proceeding, Patent Organization users MUST
restrict search
queries to the general state of the art unless the Office has
established a
secure link over the
Internet with a specific vendor to maintain confidentiality of the
patent
applications.
Non-secure Internet search, browse, or retrieval activities that could
disclose proprietary
information directed to a specific application, other than a reissue
application or
reexamination proceeding, are NOT permitted.  The same policy applies to
the
use of the
Internet as a communication medium for connecting to commercial database

providers.

----

That's
http://www.google.com/search?q=patent+%22prior+art%22+%22internet+publicatio

n%22&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&start=10&sa=N






From sandfort at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 30 09:11:03 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:11:03 -0800
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell and Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <20010330113530.A27617@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFOEIEDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


Greg wrote:

> One of the biggest tactics of the feds seems
> to be creating a "movement" or some other
> sort of organization, then accusing people of
> leading, supporting, creating or otherwise
> being a part of it.

Hey, I don't know about you guys, but I participate in a Cypherpunk
DISCUSSION group.  At least, that's what it says on my Cypherpunk charter
membership certificate, ID card and secret decoder ring.


 S a n d y




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Mar 30 09:22:39 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:22:39 -0800
Subject: SPAM
In-Reply-To: <3AC4938A.7F39B573@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <B6EA0941.4E8C%danielf@thecreativepartnership.co.uk>
  <3AC4938A.7F39B573@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <a0501040db6ea7124e866@[207.111.241.172]>


>Daniel Farnworth wrote:
>
>  > ...computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as
>>  kids,  we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening
>  > to repetitive music...
>


Rave on!


--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 06:27:24 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:27:24 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - A real!!! news story...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329213912.00d56be0@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:42:21PM +0500
References: <3AC34D8F.1D97791F@ssz.com> <3AC34D8F.1D97791F@ssz.com> <20010329104655.D1266@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010329213912.00d56be0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <20010330092723.A10409@cluebot.com>


Right. I spent a year with the CNN.com/AllPolitics folks, and it is
beyond inconceivable that they're not covering this decision for
political/etc. reasons. Sheesh.

-Declan


On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:42:21PM +0500, Reese wrote:
> No Shit.
> 
> Jim, take your damned meds, get off the high horse, and SHADDUP.
> 
> Nice list of news outlets, Declan, maybe Jim would like to address the
> obvious conspiratorial implications of Ted Turner insulting xtians by
> asking if that was dirt on their foreheads, on Ash Wednesday.
> 
> Harrumph.
> 
> Reese
> 
> At 10:46 AM 3/29/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>  >On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:58:23AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>  >> Why does CNN have nothing on the 9th Circuit ruling related to 'free 
> speech'
>  >> expression of 'violent acts'? Is 'civil liberties' not a news worthy point?
>  >> Is the abortion issue not important?
>  >>
>  >> http://www.cnn.com/
>  >>
>  >> And finally, why will 'independent media' outlets not point this irony out?
>  >
>  >
>  >Yes, clearly the media is covering up this decision.
>  >
>  >-Declan
>  >
>  >Abortion 'Hit List' Protected, Court Says
>  >Mar. 29, 2001 07:30 ET
>  >www.sltrib.com/03292001/nation_w/83845.htm
>  >
>  >Anti-Abortion Verdict Overturned
>  >Mar. 29, 2001 05:53 ET
>  >cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,282235-412,00.shtml
>  >
>  >Threats against abortion doctors protected, judges rule
>  >Mar. 29, 2001 05:53 ET
>  >www.kcstar.com/item/pages/home.pat,local/37753cdb.328,.html
>  >
>  >Court: Web site attacking abortion doctors protected
>  >Mar. 29, 2001 05:51 ET
>  >seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/SeattleTimes.woa/wa/gotoArticle
>  >?zsection_id=268448413&t...
>  >
>  >Huge Verdict Voided / $107 million judgment against anti-abortion activists
>  >dumped
>  >Mar. 29, 2001 05:50 ET
>  >www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/28/MN6244
>  >5.DTL
>  >
>  >Court upholds abortion doctor 'wanted list'
>  >Mar. 29, 2001 05:44 ET
>  >www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/epaper/editions/today/news_a32c5d7664afd1
>  >600051.html
>  >
>  >Appeals Court Backs Anti-Abortionists' Web Postings
>  >Mar. 29, 2001 05:35 ET
>  >www.newsbytes.com/news/01/163787.html
>  >
>  >Appeals Court Overturns $109 Million Verdict Against Anti-Abortion Web Site
>  >Mar. 29, 2001 05:05 ET
>  >www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article
>  >
>  >Appeals court rules abortion foes' Web site is protected
>  >Mar. 29, 2001 04:41 ET
>  >inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/03/29/national/ABOR29.htm
>  >
>  >Fed Appeals Court Sides with Abortion Activists
>  >Mar. 28, 2001 23:10 ET
>  >www.avn.com/ng/query.cgi?act=detail&in=news&eid=7921
>  >
>  >U.S. Court Tosses Major Anti-Abortion Verdict
>  >Mar. 28, 2001 21:11 ET
>  >dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20010328/pl/court_abortion_dc_1.html
>  >
>  >Anti-Abortion Site Wins Appeal
>  >Mar. 28, 2001 20:55 ET
>  >www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42708,00.html
>  >
>  >Court: Abortion Threats Protected
>  >Mar. 28, 2001 16:25 ET
>  >abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/abortionappeal010328.html
>  >(cached article) 
> 




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 06:30:53 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:30:53 -0500
Subject: FC: We've filed a motion to quash my subpoena from the DoJ
Message-ID: <mailman.390.1576007507.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42735,00.html
   
   When Reporting Becomes Testifying
   by Farhad Manjoo
   2:00 a.m. Mar. 30, 2001 PST
   
   Declan McCullagh -- the Wired News reporter who on March 8 was
   subpoenaed by the Justice Department to testify in the case against
   cypherpunk Jim Bell -- filed a motion on Thursday with the U.S.
   District Court to quash the subpoena, claiming it would violate the
   First Amendment protections accorded to journalists.
   
   Bell, who is famous for popularizing "Assassination Politics," a site
   that incorporated digital cash and encryption in a scheme to
   anonymously off political figures, has been charged with two counts of
   violating federal stalking laws. The trial is set to begin on Tuesday
   in Tacoma, Washington.
   
   McCullagh has covered the Bell saga for Wired News, and the government
   says it only needs him to verify the statements attributed to Bell in
   two of McCullagh's stories, according to an e-mail sent to McCullagh
   from Assistant U.S. Attorney Robb London.
   
   But "that would leave a lot of leeway for the defense to ask me
   questions -- and that's where it starts to get really messy really
   quickly," McCullagh said on Thursday from his home in Washington, D.C.

   [...]



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----- End forwarded message -----




From stevet at sendon.net  Fri Mar 30 01:36:42 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:36:42 +0000
Subject: High overall tax rates
In-Reply-To: <a0501040bb6e93151c3f3@[207.111.241.172]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103210745050.1690-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <3AB8D989.4BC9734@ameritech.net> <a05010409b6deab1611dc@[207.111.241.192]> <20010328232747.C7678@cluebot.com> <a05010404b6e8700459a1@[207.111.241.172]> <200103291730.MAA29751@divert.sendon.net> <a0501040bb6e93151c3f3@[207.111.241.172]>
Message-ID: <200103292105.QAA09705@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Tim May (tcmay at got.net):
> >That's quite an impressive haul.  How do they do it?
> 
> I think I explained pretty well the mechanics of how the taxes are 
> piled on at each stage.
> 
> If you mean "how do the sheeple let themselves be fleeced?," the 
> answer lies in creeping statism. The boiling frog metaphor. Each 
> special interest group thinks it is "getting something" as the size 
> of government grows.

But, sometimes a frog jumps out.  What happens then?  Do the JBTs then point
their guns at the frog saying, "Right, you!  Back in the pot!  Boiling
water is good for you."
 
> >Fortunately, there's enough entertainment out there to keep everyone happy.
> 
> "Everyone happy"? Disproved by just a single counterexample, and 

Pedant.

> there are a lot of folks out there unhappy enough with things to 

Demonstrate?

> <fill in favorite examples here>.

I'll invoke the WTO protests and the resulting LEA response as a good example
of how far such unhappiness leads to change.  Now that the army has their
Instant Microwaved Student Ray 'o Death Cannon, demonstrations of that kind
may soon be history.  As for other forms of `protest' such as has been done by
the likes of the Unibomber or McVeigh, the state capitalises on the hysteria
and expands, as per incrementalism.

What, then, is left for the starry-eyed idealist to do?

Write code, says the Cypherpunk screed.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Cephalopodia is the key insight.




From danielf at thecreativepartnership.co.uk  Fri Mar 30 00:58:25 2001
From: danielf at thecreativepartnership.co.uk (Daniel Farnworth)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:58:25 +0100
Subject: SPAM
Message-ID: <B6EA0941.4E8C%danielf@thecreativepartnership.co.uk>


Is this level of spam normal for this list? I have been on list for 18hrs
now, have received 8-10 ucm's and not one genuine mail???
-- 
The Penguin Factory
pingu at thepenguinfactory.co.uk

...computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as
kids,  we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening
to repetitive music...

PGP Public Key available




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Mar 30 08:20:04 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:20:04 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Can I See Your License for those Plants, Sir?
Message-ID: <3AC4B234.BB433988@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/30/146227.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 07:26:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:26:39 -0500
Subject: McCullagh's motion to quash DoJ subpoena in Jim Bell trial
Message-ID: <20010330102639.A11644@cluebot.com>



I've put some relevant files at:
http://www.mccullagh.org/subpoena/

And I'll add to it throughout the day. This motion is at:
http://www.mccullagh.org/subpoena/motion.032901.html

Again, thanks to the many people who sent along messages of support.
The trial begins next Tuesday in federal district court in Tacoma,
Washington. Since the judge won't rule on my motion until that
morning, I'll have to be there.

-Declan

---

http://www.mccullagh.org/subpoena/motion.032901.html

   PETER SULLIVAN
   TIMOTHY L. ALGER
   GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER LLP
   
   333 South Grand Avenue
   Los Angeles, California 90071-3197
   
   Telephone: (213) 229-7000
   Facsimile: (213) 229-7520
   
   KELLY PATRICK CORR
   CORR CRONIN LLP
   1001 Fourth Avenue
   Suite 3700
   Seattle, Washington 98154-1135
   Telephone: (206) 625-8600
   Facsimile: (206) 625-0900
   
   Attorneys for non-party witness
   DECLAN McCULLAGH
   
                        UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                       WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
                                 AT TACOMA
   
   UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
   
   Plaintiff,
       
   v.
   
   JAMES DALTON BELL,
   
   Defendant.
       
   CASE NO. CR 00-5731 JET
   
   NOTICE OF MOTION AND MOTION FOR ORDER QUASHING SUBPOENA ON DECLAN
   McCULLAGH, OR FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER; MEMORANDUM OF POINTS AND
   AUTHORITIES; DECLARATION OF DECLAN McCULLAGH
   
   
   Hearing date: April 3, 2001
   
   Hearing time: 9:30 a.m.
   
   Hearing place: Courtroom E
   (Hon. Jack E. Tanner)
   
   Trial date: April 3, 2001
   
   
   TO ALL PARTIES AND TO THEIR ATTORNEYS OF RECORD:
   
   PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that on April 3, 2001, at 9:30 a.m., in Department
   E of the United States District Court for the Western District of
   Washington, located at 1717 Pacific Avenue, Tacoma, Washington 98402,
   Declan McCullagh ("McCullagh"), a reporter for Wired News, will and
   hereby does move the Court for an order quashing a Subpoena in a
   Criminal Case served by the Office of the United States Attorney. In
   the alternative, McCullagh requests that the Court enter a protective
   order limiting the testimony of McCullagh at the trial of James Dalton
   Bell to matters that were published by Wired News.
   
   McCullagh asks that the subpoena be quashed, or a protective order
   entered, on the separate grounds that inquiry beyond those matters
   that were published is (1) unreasonable and oppressive as defined by
   Rule 17(c) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, and (2) would
   violate the First Amendment's protection of unpublished information
   gathered by journalists. Each of these grounds is amplified and
   explained in the attached Memorandum of Points and Authorities.
   
   This Motion is based on this Notice of Motion and Motion, the attached
   Memorandum of Points and Authorities, the attached Declaration of
   Declan McCullagh, the complete files and records in this action, and
   on such argument and evidence as may be presented to the Court at the
   hearing on this Motion.
   
   DATED: March 29, 2001.
   
   PETER SULLIVAN
       TIMOTHY L. ALGER
       GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER LLP
       KELLY PATRICK CORR
       CORR CRONIN LLP
       By: ________________________________
       Kelly Patrick Corr
       Attorneys for non-party witness DECLAN McCULLAGH
       
                    MEMORANDUM OF POINTS AND AUTHORITIES
   
                                     1.
                            SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT
   
   By this motion, non-party witness Declan McCullagh ("McCullagh"), a
   reporter for Wired News, an online news magazine published by Lycos,
   Inc., seeks to quash the trial subpoena served on him by the Office of
   the United States Attorney. That subpoena requires him to testify for
   the government at the trial of James Dalton Bell and produce copies of
   two articles written by McCullagh and published by Wired News ("the
   Articles"):
   
     * "Crypto-Convict Won't Recant," published April 14, 2000; and
     * "IRS Raids Cypherpunk's House," published November 11, 2000.
       
   The prosecutor has informed counsel for McCullagh that McCullagh will
   be asked only to verify the accuracy of statements by Bell that are
   included in the Articles. Bell's counsel, however, has made clear that
   cross-examination will not be limited to published information, and
   Bell might seek testimony regarding a variety of areas that Bell
   thinks will be helpful to his defense. In response to a proposal by
   the government and McCullagh's counsel that the parties stipulate to
   the accuracy of the published statements, Bell's counsel has referred
   the question to Bell. Bell has not responded to correspondence from
   McCullagh's counsel regarding a stipulation, and declined on Thursday,
   March 29, 2001, to meet with McCullagh's counsel at the federal
   penitentiary. It is unknown at this time whether Bell will sign the
   stipulation, necessitating this motion.
   
   While the government might intend only to elicit testimony regarding
   published information - which McCullagh has offered to verify by
   affidavit - the subpoena sets the stage for an inquiry into
   McCullagh's newsgathering practices and his unpublished work product.
   Based on the statements of Bell's counsel, it appears likely that Bell
   will attempt to use McCullagh as his mouthpiece by compelling him to
   repeat before the jury Bell's allegations of conspiracy and
   persecution by federal prosecutors and agents, and by compelling
   McCullagh to disclose information that he has gathered over the past
   seven years while covering policy and technology - including the
   "cypherpunk" phenomenon - for publications including Wired News and
   Time magazine.
   
   Such an intrusion into newsgathering is not permitted under Rule 17 of
   the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure or the First Amendment to the
   United States Constitution. While the government might consider the
   published statements of Bell to be relevant, a wide-ranging inquiry
   into McCullagh's unpublished research as a journalist is unreasonable
   and oppressive, and runs afoul of the First Amendment's protection of
   newsgathering and the editorial process. This First Amendment-based
   journalists' privilege reflects "the preferred position of the First
   Amendment and the importance of a vigorous press." Zerilli v. Smith,
   656 F.2d 705, 712 (D.C. Cir. 1981).
   
   Requiring McCullagh to testify, even if it is very limited on direct
   examination, creates an impermissible burden by necessarily exposing
   McCullagh to the risk of an intrusive cross-examination that will
   interfere with McCullagh's current and future newsgathering.
   Accordingly, the Court should quash the subpoena or, in the
   alternative, enter a protective order limiting McCullagh's testimony
   to those matters that were published in the Articles.
   
   2.
       BACKGROUND
       
   McCullagh is the Washington, D.C., bureau chief for Wired News. He has
   been an on-line journalist since 1995, and has covered politics and
   technology for numerous publications, both traditional and online.
   Prior to joining Wired News, McCullagh was a reporter for Time
   magazine and Time Digital Daily, and a correspondent for HotWired.
   (Declaration of Declan McCullagh ¶ 2.)
   
   McCullagh has been covering Bell's battles with the law since April
   1997, and has written about six articles about Bell, including the two
   articles regarding which the government now seeks McCullagh's
   testimony. (Id. ¶ 5.) McCullagh continues to conduct interviews and
   collect information about Bell and the "cypherpunk" movement, with the
   intention of publishing additional articles. (Id. ¶ 6.) It has been
   his intention to cover Bell's trial. (Id.)
   
   Over the past several years, Bell and McCullagh have communicated
   irregularly, mostly by telephone. Some of the information provided to
   McCullagh by Bell has resulted in news stories; some has not, but
   might be used in future stories. (Id. ¶ 7.) McCullagh carefully
   retains information that he gathers as a journalist until it is useful
   for published articles. (Id. ¶ 8.) It is McCullagh's belief that
   sources speak to him and cooperate with his newsgathering efforts
   because he is trustworthy and independent. (Id.)
   
   Some of McCullagh's sources already have told him that they will stop
   assisting him or providing him with information if he testifies in
   Bell's trial. (Id. ¶ 9.) Of particular concern to McCullagh is the
   likely loss of sources who respect him for his independence and who,
   in some circumstances, are challenging the authorities on issues
   relating to Internet freedom. (Id.) These sources, who have given
   McCullagh information that was vital to covering all sides of Internet
   issues, are likely to view McCullagh (erroneously) in the future as an
   agent for the government if he is compelled to testify for the
   prosecution in this trial. (Id..)
   
   McCullagh also fears that testifying about unpublished information
   will jeopardize his credibility as a journalist. (Id. ¶ 10.) Many
   people who have provided McCullagh with information have done so on
   the understanding that he was working as a reporter, and not gathering
   information for litigants. (Id.) The information that he receives from
   sources leads him to other sources and additional information;
   disclosure of his newsgathering techniques and practices will put him
   at a competitive disadvantage in the future. (Id.) McCullagh believes
   that disclosure of his work product could compromise his reputation as
   an impartial journalist and a communicator of news, and create the
   false perception that McCullagh can be used by litigants as a
   collector and presenter of information helpful to their causes. (Id.)
   
   3.
       THE SUBPOENA SHOULD BE QUASHED BECAUSE IT IS UNREASONABLE AND
       OPPRESSIVE
       
   While the government has indicated its willingness to limit
   McCullagh's testimony to verification of the accuracy of published
   statements made by Bell, putting McCullagh on the witness stand
   necessarily raises the possibility that Bell will challenge
   McCullagh's testimony on direct by inquiring into unpublished matters.
   Indeed, Bell's lawyer has informed counsel for McCullagh that Bell
   will want to obtain testimony from McCullagh because Bell considers
   McCullagh to be sympathetic to him. Bell apparently hopes to bring
   before the jury Bell's allegations of government wrongdoing by asking
   McCullagh to testify about Bell's conversations with McCullagh, and to
   disclose any research McCullagh might have conducted relating to
   Bell's theories and accusations.
   
   Such testimony is irrelevant to the charges of interstate stalking for
   which Bell is on trial. The government's need for Bell's published
   statements is tenuous at best: the quotations in the Articles appear
   to be rhetoric; they offer no evidence that Bell crossed a state line
   with the intention of injuring or harassing alleged victims Mike
   McNall and Jeff Gordon.
   
   Further, the likely inquiry by Bell that follows from McCullagh's
   verification of the quotations in the Articles is not relevant at all.
   Rather, it merely distracts the jury from the charges at issue while
   compelling McCullagh to describe his collection of information from
   numerous sources, and his selection of material for publication. Put
   simply, Bell's likely cross-examination of McCullagh will be a fishing
   expedition in its purest form. The "mere hope" of obtaining
   exculpatory evidence is not sufficient for enforcement of a Rule 17
   subpoena. United States v. Cuthbertson, 630 F.2d 139, 146 (3d Cir.
   1980), cert. denied, 449 U.S. 1126 (1981) ("Cuthbertson I").
   
   Thus, an evaluation of the profound impact of the subpoena on
   McCullagh establishes that the subpoena is unreasonable and
   oppressive, in violation of Rule 17. The threatened intrusion into the
   newsgathering process requires an order quashing the subpoena in its
   entirety.
   
   4.
       THE SUBPOENA SHOULD BE QUASHED, OR A PROTECTIVE ORDER ENTERED,
       BECAUSE UNPUBLISHED INFORMATION IS PROTECTED BY THE FIRST
       AMENDMENT
       A. The Burden Imposed By Subpoenas Such As The One At Issue Here
       Has Caused The Courts To Extend The Privilege To Unpublished
       Information
       
   In Branzburg v. Hayes, 408 U.S. 665, 707 (1972), the United States
   Supreme Court recognized that journalists' newsgathering activities
   qualify for protection under the First Amendment to the United States
   Constitution. The Court concluded that "without some protection for
   seeking out the news, freedom of the press could be eviscerated." Id.
   at 681. Justice Powell, in casting the deciding fifth vote, stated
   that "[t]he Court does not hold that newsmen, subpoenaed to testify
   before a grand jury, are without constitutional rights with respect to
   the gathering of news or in the safeguarding of their sources." Id. at
   709 (Powell, J., concurring). Although the Court did not permit the
   reporters in the Branzburg case to refuse to appear and testify before
   grand juries, federal courts have interpreted Branzburg as recognizing
   a qualified privilege that protects information gathered by
   journalists in preparation for new s reports, but which has not been
   published. See, e.g., Cuthbertson I, 630 F.2d at 146-47; Von Bulow v.
   Von Bulow, 811 F.2d 136, 143 (2d Cir. 1987); United States v. LaRouche
   Campaign, 841 F.2d 1176, 1181-82 (1st Cir. 1988).
   
   The United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit has
   recognized this First Amendment privilege in the context of criminal
   proceedings, Farr v. Pitchess, 522 F.2d 464, 467-68 (9th Cir. 1975),
   cert. denied, 427 U.S. 912 (1976), and has held that the privilege
   protects unpublished information, even if it is not obtained under an
   agreement of confidentiality, Shoen v. Shoen, 5 F.3d 1289, 1295 (9th
   Cir. 1993) ("Shoen I"). A court must weigh any claim of First
   Amendment privilege against the need for disclosure and strike a
   balance in favor of the "paramount interest." Farr, 522 F.2d at 468.
   
   The Ninth Circuit explained in Shoen I that "the privilege is a
   recognition that society's interest in protecting the integrity of the
   newsgathering process, and in ensuring the free flow of information to
   the public, is an interest `of sufficient social importance to justify
   some incidental sacrifice of sources of facts needed in the
   administration of justice.'" 5 F.3d at 1292 (quoting Herbert v. Lando,
   441 U.S. 153, 183 (Brennan, J., dissenting).). Protection of
   unpublished information is critical to freedom of speech, even where
   it is not gained under a promise of confidentiality, because routine
   demands for such information in court will interfere with journalists'
   work and independence. The Ninth Circuit stated:
   
   "The . . . four interests named are the threat of administrative and
       judicial intrusion into the newsgathering and editorial process;
       the disadvantage of a journalist appearing to be an investigative
       arm of the judicial system or a research tool of government or of
       a private party; the disincentive to compile and preserve
       non-broadcast material; and the burden on journalists' time and
       resources in responding to subpoenas." . . .
       To the extent that compelled disclosure becomes commonplace, it
       seems likely indeed that internal policies of destruction of
       materials may be devised and choices as to subject matter made,
       which could be keyed to avoiding disclosure requests or compliance
       therewith rather than to the basic function of providing news and
       comment. In addition, frequency of subpoenas would not only
       preempt the otherwise productive time of journalists and other
       employees but measurably increase expenditures for legal fees.
       
   Id.
   at 1294-95 (quoting LaRouche Campaign, 841 F.2d at 1182).
   
   The Ninth Circuit concluded that requiring journalists to testify
   impedes their ability to collect information, and thereby chills
   speech.
   
   "It is their independent status that often enables reporters to gain
       access, without a pledge of confidentiality, to meetings or places
       where a policeman or a politician would not be welcome. If
       perceived as an adjunct of the police or of the courts,
       journalists might well be shunned by persons who might otherwise
       give them information without a promise of confidentiality, barred
       from meetings which they would otherwise be free to attend and to
       describe, or even physically harassed if, for example, observed
       taking notes or photographs at a public rally.
       
   Id.
   at 1295 (quoting Duane D. Morse & John W. Zucker, The Journalist's
   Privilege in Testimonial Privileges (Scott N. Stone & Ronald S.
   Liebman eds., 1983), at 474-75).
   
   The Third Circuit reached the same conclusion in Cuthbertson, a
   criminal case:
   
   We do not think that the privilege can be limited solely to protection
       of sources. The compelled production of a reporter's resource
       materials can constitute a significant intrusion into the
       newsgathering and editorial processes. See Loadholtz v. Fields,
       389 F. Supp. 1299, 1303 (M.D. Fla. 1975). Like the compelled
       disclosure of confidential sources, it may substantially undercut
       the public policy favoring the free flow of information to the
       public that is the foundation for the privilege. See Riley v. City
       of Chester, [612 F.2d 708, 716 (3d Cir. 1979)]. Therefore, we hold
       that the privilege extends to unpublished materials in the
       possession of CBS. See Altemose Construction Co. v. Building &
       Construction Trades Council, 443 F. Supp. 489, 491 (E.D. Pa. 1977)
       ("this qualified privilege can even apply when the news source
       and, perhaps, a portion of the withheld writing, are not
       confidential").
       
   Cuthbertson,
   630 F.2d at 147.
   
   Democracy's keystone is the dissemination of information to the
   public, permitting it to make informed choices. This dissemination
   depends on journalists who are successful in gathering facts, and
   that, in turn, depends on sources who will not disclose information
   unless they believe they are dealing with professionals who are
   trustworthy and objective. By compelling a journalist to disclose work
   product whenever a litigant views it as helpful to his or her case, a
   court sacrifices the very First Amendment freedoms that keep our
   nation informed and our government accountable.
   
   B. The First Amendment Privilege Can Be Overcome In Only The
       Most Limited Of Circumstances
       
   Recognizing the threat that compulsory disclosure of work product
   posed to the uninhibited flow of information, the Ninth Circuit
   adopted a three-part test that courts must apply whenever a journalist
   withholds unpublished information that was not gained under a promise
   of confidentiality. The test's purpose, the court explained, was to
   "ensure that compelled disclosure is the exception, not the rule."
   Shoen v. Shoen, 48 F.3d 412 (9th Cir. 1995) ("Shoen II").
   
   We . . . hold that where information sought is not confidential, a
       civil litigant is entitled to requested discovery notwithstanding
       a valid assertion of the journalist's privilege by a nonparty only
       upon a showing that the requested material is: (1) unavailable
       despite exhaustion of all reasonable alternative sources;
       (2) noncumulative; and (3) clearly relevant to an important issue
       in the case. We note that there must be a showing of actual
       relevance; a showing of potential relevance will not suffice.
       
   Id.
   
   Although the Ninth Circuit has not had the opportunity to apply the
   three-part test of Shoen II in a criminal case, the Third Circuit has
   adopted a nearly identical test and applied it to a criminal subpoena
   that sought unpublished, nonconfidential information:
   
   "First, the movant must demonstrate that he has made an effort to
       obtain the information from other sources. Second, he must
       demonstrate that the only access to the information sought is
       through the journalist and her sources. Finally, the movant must
       persuade the Court that the information sought is crucial to the
       claim."
       
   United States v. Cuthbertson,
   651 F.2d 189, 195-96 (3d Cir.) ("Cuthbertson II") (quoting United
   States v. Criden, 633 F.2d 346, 358-59 (3d Cir. 1980), cert. denied,
   449 U.S. 113 (1981)), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1056 (1981).
   
   Application of the First Amendment privilege in a criminal proceeding
   is just as important as in a civil context. As the Second Circuit held
   in United States v. Burke, 700 F.2d 70, 76 (2d Cir.), cert. denied,
   464 U.S. 816 (1983): "[T]he important social interests in the free
   flow of information that are protected by the reporter's qualified
   privilege are particularly compelling in criminal cases. Reporters are
   to be encouraged to investigate and expose, free from unnecessary
   government intrusion, evidence of criminal wrongdoing."
   
   C. The Privilege Protects Unpublished Information In McCullagh's
       Possession,
       And Cannot Be Overcome By Bell
       
   If Bell attempts to cross-examine McCullagh regarding unpublished
   information, he cannot satisfy any of the Shoen requirements, let
   alone all three of them. Only by meeting all of the requirements can
   Bell establish the kind of "compelling need" that overcomes the First
   Amendment privilege. Shoen I, 5 F.3d at 1196.
   
   First
   , Bell cannot establish that he exhausted all alternative sources for
   the information he might hope to obtain from McCullagh. Testimony
   about Bell's conversations with McCullagh can be provided by Bell
   himself. See, e.g., Shoen I, 5 F.3d at 1296 (refusing to order author
   to produce notes of interview with party because the party was an
   alternative source for the information); Carushka, Inc. v. Premiere
   Products, Inc., 1989 U.S. Dist. Lexis 17487, *8, 17 Media L. Rep. 2001
   (C.D. Cal 1989) (refusing to order magazine publisher to produce
   unpublished materials; "as the information sought was either provided
   by or adopted by plaintiff, defendants may elicit the relevant
   testimony from plaintiff herself").
   
   Even assuming that testimony by McCullagh about his conversations with
   people other than Bell is admissible, that information is available
   from the other participants in the conversations. For example, if Bell
   contends that McCullagh obtained information from federal agents, Bell
   can obtain that testimony from the federal agents. Indeed, it is
   difficult to fathom what information McCullagh might have gathered
   that is even remotely relevant to this trial that is not readily
   available from other witnesses who will be called by the government or
   who are subject to subpoena by the defense. See Cuthbertson II, 651
   F.2d at 196 (privilege does not yield unless "the only practical
   access to the information sought is through the media source). Bell's
   inability to meet this requirement of exhaustion, on its own, dooms
   any effort to pierce the First Amendment privilege. See Shoen I, 5
   F.3d at 1296 ("At a minimum, [the requesting party must make] a
   showing that the information sought is not obtainable from another
   resource."); accord Carey v. Hume, 492 F.2d 631, 639 (D.C. Cir. 1974)
   (compelled disclosure from a journalist must be a "last resort after
   pursuit of other opportunities has failed"), cert. dismissed, 417 U.S.
   938 (1974).
   
   Second
   , the information that Bell might seek from McCullagh is cumulative.
   Bell will have the opportunity to cross-examine the government's
   witnesses, and to call his own witnesses, in an effort to establish
   that he was unfairly targeted by the government or the victim of a
   conspiracy. Simply put, whatever Bell told McCullagh, and whatever
   information McCullagh gathered as a result of Bell's statements to
   McCullagh, is evidence that Bell will present through other witnesses,
   including himself if he takes the stand. Any intrusion on McCullagh's
   newsgathering and Wired News' editorial decisions is unjustified,
   given the cumulative nature of the evidence Bell is likely to seek
   from McCullagh. See, e.g., United States v. Hubbard, 493 F. Supp. 202,
   205 (D.D.C. 1979) (quashing subpoena by criminal defendant on ground
   that other witnesses were available for same facts, making reporters'
   testimony "merely cumulative"). 
   
   Third
   , the unpublished information Bell is likely to attempt to elicit on
   cross-examination is not clearly and actually relevant to an important
   issue of the case. As the Second Circuit explained in Burke, unless a
   criminal defendant who seeks to pierce the privilege can make a "clear
   and specific showing" that the evidence is "necessary or critical to
   the maintenance of his defense," the reporter's privilege will be
   upheld. Burke, 700 F.2d at 77. Bell's unpublished communications with
   McCullagh do not go directly to the issue of whether he engaged in
   interstate stalking of federal agents. Communications between
   McCullagh and others relating to Bell's case would be inadmissible
   hearsay, or, if they involve federal agents, would be merely
   impeachment evidence, which is not evidence that is considered
   "critical or necessary to the maintenance or defense of a claim." See
   In Re Application to Quash Subpoena, 79 F.3d 346, 352 (2d Cir. 1996).
   And McCullagh's actions (any research he might have done) are
   completely irrelevant. Indeed, communications with reporters, and what
   reporters might have done with that information, will undoubtedly
   confuse the issues, delay the proceedings, and waste time. See Fed. R.
   Evid. 403; see also National Union Fire Ins. Co. v. Seafirst Corp.,
   1987 U.S. Dist. Lexis 16094, *4-5, 14 Media L. Rep. 1190 (W.D. Wash.
   1987) (quashing subpoena seeking unpublished information because
   communications between defendant and reporters were only "marginally
   relevant at best," even though contents of article were important to
   case).
   
   Further, to allow the privilege to be invaded here would set a
   terrible precedent. To allow a defendant to cross-examine a reporter
   about privileged matters simply because the government has asked a
   reporter about non-privileged matters would eviscerate the privilege.
   Every time the subject matter of a news article became the subject
   matter of a trial, newsgathering activities would become fair game for
   the litigants. It is this very concern - that journalists will be
   routinely subjected to subpoenas - that caused the Ninth Circuit to
   hold that "compelled disclosure is the exception, not the rule." Shoen
   II, 48 F.3d at 416.
   
   5.
       CONCLUSION
       
   In extending the journalist's privilege to unpublished information,
   the Ninth Circuit explicitly recognized "that routine court-compelled
   disclosure of research materials poses a serious threat to the
   vitality of the newsgathering process." Shoen II, 48 F.3d at 415-16.
   
   Accordingly, reporter Declan McCullagh requests that the Court quash
   the subpoena, or, alternatively, enter a protective order that
   prohibits counsel from inquiring into any matters other than the
   published contents of the articles.
   
   DATED: March 29, 2001.
   
   PETER SULLIVAN
       TIMOTHY L. ALGER
       GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER LLP
       KELLY PATRICK CORR
       CORR CRONIN LLP
       By: ________________________________
       Kelly Patrick Corr
       Attorneys for non-party witness DECLAN McCULLAGH
       
###



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----- End forwarded message -----




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 07:27:28 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:27:28 -0500
Subject: We've filed a motion to quash my subpoena from the DoJ
Message-ID: <20010330102728.B11644@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----


From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Mar 30 08:28:59 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:28:59 -0600
Subject: Linux Today - The Guardian: Second sight: Open source is a model for 
 education, and social services
Message-ID: <3AC4B44B.7048C16B@dev.tivoli.com>


http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-03-30-004-20-PS
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Mar 30 07:35:24 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:35:24 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell and Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <200103301547.KAA29813@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Declan offers his motion to quash the feds subpoena:


http://www.mccullagh.org/subpoena/motion.032901.html

Worth reading not for the customary hoary press privilege, 
but for the protection requested to avoid what Jim Bell 
allegedly wants to use McCullagh for, and for Declan's 
affirmation that he covers the " 'cypherpunk' movement," 
gathering and archiving information for future use.

Did you write this yourself Declan or your mouthpiece
working alone without privileged sources about what you
intend for the "cypherpunk movement?" WTF movement,
by the way is being alleged and what is the evidence
being concocted? Smells like the feds are feeding
the evidentiaries all around the legal and press privileged
pigtroughs, jesus fucking christ.





From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 07:44:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:44:39 -0500
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
Message-ID: <20010330104439.A11833@cluebot.com>


I invite all cypherpunks subscribers to let this censorhappy -- not to
mention humorless -- sysadmin know what they think about spam
complaints over a joke posted here:
"J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>

I posted recently, in response to a help-me-spam message:
> Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
> As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.

And Terranson complained to my upstream provider that I was spamming
(see message below).

I will be writing about the censorhappy behavior of Terranson/MFN
in my next column.

-Declan

> > From measl at mfn.org  Thu Mar 29 13:58:18 2001
> > Received: from imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net by iaremedy.corp.us.uu.net with
ESMTP
> > (peer crosschecked as: imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net [153.39.43.46])
> > id QQkimd20740
> > for <iaremedy-mail-spooler at iaremedy.corp.us.uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001
13:58:12 -0500 (EST)
> > Received: from cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net by imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net with
ESMTP
> > (peer crosschecked as: cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net [198.5.241.40])
> > id QQkimd22603
> > for <abuse at uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:59:05 GMT
> > Received: from cliff.mfn.org by cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net with ESMTP
> > (peer crosschecked as: cliff.mfn.org [204.238.179.8])
> > id QQkimd24648
> > for <abuse at uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:59:05 GMT
> > Received: from greeves.mfn.org (greeves.mfn.org [204.238.179.3])
> > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2TIw7j10180;
> > Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:58:12 -0600 (CST)
> > (envelope-from measl at mfn.org)
> > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:58:07 -0600 (CST)
> > From: "J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>
> > To: abuse at broadwing.net
> > cc: abuse at uu.net
> > Subject: Your downstream spammer...
> > Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103291257260.10465-110000 at greeves.mfn.org>
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1599177482-985892287=:10465"
> >
> >   This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable
text,
> >   while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware
tools.
> >   Send mail to mime at docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.
> >
> > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465
> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> >
> >
> > Please muzzle this idjit...
> >
> > --
> > Yours,
> > J.A. Terranson
> > sysadmin at mfn.org
> >
> > If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings,
they
> > should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
> > Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
> > unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
> > the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
> > elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
> > populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb
electorate...
> > This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
> > as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist
Republics.
> >
> > The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
> > associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
> > those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
> > first place...
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465
> > Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822; CHARSET=US-ASCII
> > Content-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103291257290.10465 at greeves.mfn.org>
> > Content-Description: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
(fwd)
> >
> > Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com>
> > Received: from einstein.ssz.com (einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99])
> > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2TG9Ej09880
> > for <measl at mfn.org>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:09:14 -0600 (CST)
> > (envelope-from owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com)
> > Received: (from mdom at localhost)
> > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18391
> > for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:05 -0600
> > Received: from cluebot.com ([216.110.36.217])
> > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18387
> > for <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:02 -0600
> > Received: by cluebot.com (Postfix, from userid 502)
> > id D39A9104F1; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500 (EST)
> > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
> > To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>
> > Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > Subject: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
> > Message-ID: <20010329104229.C1266 at cluebot.com>
> > Mail-Followup-To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>,
> > cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > References: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA at EXBANGALORE>
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Disposition: inline
> > User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i
> > In-Reply-To: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA at EXBANGALORE>; from
GaneshA at icode.com on Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530
> > X-News-Site: http://www.wired.com/
> > X-URL: http://www.mccullagh.org/
> > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > Precedence: bulk
> > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > X-Unsubscription-Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr
> > X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com
> > X-Loop: ssz.com
> > X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish
> >
> >
> > Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
> > As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.
> >
> > -Declan
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530, Ganesh Acharya wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > We are looking forward to conduct a Bulk e-mail (HTML) campaign
targeting
> > > the SMEs and hence a bulk e-mail service provider. In this concern I
would
> > > like to know a few details:
> > > 1) Do you mail HTML mails?
> > > 2) In the context of the campaign can you host our micro site as until
the
> > > campaign gets over?
> > > 3) Do you provide targeted e-mail addresses targeting the SMEs?
> > >
> > > I would appreciate if you can mail me the cost involved and any
additional
> > > service you provide in the domain of targeted bulk e-mail campaigns,
ASAP.
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Ganesh Acharya
> > > Marketing Analyst - Web
> > > Icode Inc
> > > Ph: (703) 934 4700 Ext - 294
> > > Fx: (703) 934 4708
> > > mail: ganesha at icode.com
> > > www.icode.com
> > >
> >
> > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465--
>


----- End forwarded message -----




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Mar 30 11:00:22 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:00:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell and Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <20010330113530.A27617@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103301052160.25475-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Greg Newby wrote:


>The theory of a "movement" is part of the FUD surrounding Bell.  It's
>not that HE's assassinating people, but that his "followers" might.


blink blink.  Bell?  "followers?"  

While I'm willing to be polite to most people on mailing lists, 
and occasionally find interest in the things (especially the 
things contrary to established rules of "sanity") that they say, 
I cannot *imagine* anyone actually becoming a "follower" of a 
person such as Jim Bell.  Even setting aside for a few moments 
the inherent goofiness of AP (which they seem to be implying that 
this is about) Bell simply doesn't exhibit any leadership 
characteristics.  At least not in anything I've read.  

His writings give me the impression of a man too antisocial to 
remain on good terms with any would-be "followers."

			Bear






From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Fri Mar 30 09:07:27 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:07:27 -0600
Subject: US v. King (Navy cryptanalyst espionage boofuu)
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEKMCIAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/king/index.html

Terms: King, cryptanalyst, Navy, espionage.

"Is there some strange aspect of military law that allows someone to be held
for such a long time, almost two years, without being charged with
anything?" ...somebody asked....

Be sure to check out how Jonathan Turley (George Washington University Law
School) deep-sixed the Navy. Saaaluuute!


~Aimee

BCC: "Torpedo" Turley




From sandfort at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 30 11:23:47 2001
From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:23:47 -0800
Subject: PARTY, PARTY, PARTY!
Message-ID: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFCEIIDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>


 You are invited to our fabulous:

   "GOOD FRIDAY THE THIRTEENTH"

       First Millennium II
Anarcho-Dilettante Masquerade Ball

   Your formal invitation is at:

  http://danger-island.com/party/

Your hosts:

Black Unicorn
Sandy Sandfort
Randy French
Bob Smith




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Fri Mar 30 08:35:31 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:35:31 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell and Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <200103301547.KAA29813@blount.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:35:24AM -0500
References: <200103301547.KAA29813@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010330113530.A27617@ils.unc.edu>


On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:35:24AM -0500, John Young wrote:
> ...
> intend for the "cypherpunk movement?" WTF movement,
> by the way is being alleged and what is the evidence
> being concocted?

WTF movement indeed.  

One of the biggest tactics of the feds seems to be creating a
"movement" or some other sort of organization, then accusing people of
leading, supporting, creating or otherwise being a part of it.

I can think of lots of examples....  Steve Jackson Games, DeCSS,
EarthFirst, OK city, etc.  (It's not just for geeks, that's for sure).

The theory of a "movement" is part of the FUD surrounding Bell.  It's
not that HE's assassinating people, but that his "followers" might.

Subpoenas getting email addresses for Cypherpunks subscribers might
not be part of Bell's case, but are easy to imagine for similar
federal witch hunts.  Welcome to the "movement."

  -- Greg




From v.klima at decros.cz  Fri Mar 30 01:44:40 2001
From: v.klima at decros.cz (Klima Vlastimil)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:44:40 +0200
Subject: Czech cryptologists discover bug in OpenPGP format 
Message-ID: <9E85DC6CA1D5D311BB460006293960FE089544@dcrfs.decros.cz>


We do not know why, but the links in this mail conference are only to the
Czech version of documents. 
On http://www.i.cz/en/  there are English technical paper, presentation and
FAQ.

Vlastimil and Tom




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 08:46:19 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:46:19 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell and Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <200103301547.KAA29813@blount.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:35:24AM -0500
References: <200103301547.KAA29813@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010330114619.A13117@cluebot.com>


My attorney at Gibson Dunn wrote the brief, and I think it speaks for itself.

-Declan


On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:35:24AM -0500, John Young wrote:
> Declan offers his motion to quash the feds subpoena:
> 
> 
> http://www.mccullagh.org/subpoena/motion.032901.html
> 
> Worth reading not for the customary hoary press privilege, 
> but for the protection requested to avoid what Jim Bell 
> allegedly wants to use McCullagh for, and for Declan's 
> affirmation that he covers the " 'cypherpunk' movement," 
> gathering and archiving information for future use.
> 
> Did you write this yourself Declan or your mouthpiece
> working alone without privileged sources about what you
> intend for the "cypherpunk movement?" WTF movement,
> by the way is being alleged and what is the evidence
> being concocted? Smells like the feds are feeding
> the evidentiaries all around the legal and press privileged
> pigtroughs, jesus fucking christ.
> 
> 




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Mar 30 09:34:52 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:34:52 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell and Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFOEIEDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
References: <20010330113530.A27617@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <200103301746.MAA23192@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Sandy wrote:

>Hey, I don't know about you guys, but I participate in a Cypherpunk
>DISCUSSION group.  At least, that's what it says on my Cypherpunk charter
>membership certificate, ID card and secret decoder ring.

Doesn't matter what you know, what matters is the evidence
provided by others about a cypherpunk movment. Its most
reputable actors, its most convincing statements, its most
celebrated manifestos, its most publicized threats to the
commonweal.

Declan's motion to quash, and the evidence it claims
Declan has about the cypherpunk movement, are perfect
examples of how a movement is turned into a conspiracy.
By turning state's evidence upon advice of an attorney,
upon advice of your boss. This happened with Time and
it is happening with Wired. As with many prior squeezings
of confidants.

Not much Declan can do about it if he wants to remain
a journalist paid regularly to get those desiring press coverage
to tell him secrets or simulations thereof. Not single Declan
out for this, the same is true of Jessica Stern, 60 minutes,
or anybody who claims they are privileged, trust me, that is,
your lawyer. Let me introduce Mr. Jones.

In the Bin Laden trial yesterday the day's testimony was
about the similarity of acts of war by the US and terrorism
by bin Laden's followers. With Judge Sand and a defense 
attorney going at it (while the jury was not present):

   http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-24.htm

As often discussed here, freedom fighter is synonymous
with terrorist. As Jim Bell argues in his briefs, he was
the one stalked by the feds. As Declan has said, Jim
was doing what Declan does, gathering information on
the federal terrorism movement. Question remains of
who Declan will side with, as with any privileged party,
when the wires are attached to privates to assure
truthtelling.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Mar 30 12:43:51 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:43:51 -0800
Subject: Mr. Choate, an important message  from Justice Scalia....
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPCEJMCGAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <20010314131734.A4609@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010326102630.00a48cc0@idiom.com>


Discussion by Jim Choate, Declan, and Aimee -

> > But wasn't Scalia -- who made a reasonable point -- talking about the
> > nomination of judges, not executive branch political appointees?
>
>Yes. Indeed, it is the province of the Courts to interpret the Constitution
>(according to some, not including Mr. Choate), not executive branch
>political appointees. The very fact that we ask the executive branch these
>questions is pause for thought. I was trying to uncover any pragmatic
>distinction between a "political view" versus an opinion on the mechanics of
>constitutional interpretation. I raised more questions than I answered.


Marbury vs. Madison was an entertaining power grab by the Supremes,
but while it may not have been explicitly planned by the bunch of
politicians who wrote the messy compromise that's the Constitution,
the Constitutional requirement that there be a hierarchy of courts
with one Supreme Court means that something like it should happen.

If you don't like the idea that the Supreme's job is interpreting
the constitutionality of laws made by the legislature,
their job at minimum involves deciding appeals in specific cases,
and it's possible under Constutionally implied-but-unspecified
conditions to appeal cases up the hierarchy.
Some of those cases will involve questions where a law made by Congress
or by a state (at least after the 14th amendment)
conflicts with the majority of Supreme Court judges' opinions
about what the Constitution (and amendments) directly states
or with what they believe are fundamental civil rights
which the 9th and 10th amendments confirm may exist even though they
are not specifically enumerated.

So even if, in a Choatian World, they couldn't say
"We're the Supreme Arbiters Of The Meaning Of The Constitution",
they can still say "We're the top of the judicial hierarchy,
and we say that X is a bad law, and will rule in any case that
is appealed to us that that the accused is not guilty
and award legal costs to the accused."
Under common law, throwing out cases of unjust laws is not only
the job of the jury, it's also the job of the judge
(though the judge also works for the King, and it may also
be his job to enforce unjust laws.)
Lower courts don't like getting overturned, so they'd generally
stay in line given a ruling like that, and if not,
the accused can spend the costs of the appeal and win.

And since most courts generally follow precedents,
once the Supremes have announced that X is a bad law,
they'll generally stick to it for quite a while,
or at least until the political climate changes and
they decide some case doesn't quite fit the conditions
that the precedent was set under, or weasel-word around it,
or decide to do a rare break with tradition and issue a
contradictory opinion.




From jdd at vbc.net  Fri Mar 30 03:56:03 2001
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:56:03 +0100 (BST)
Subject: SPAM
In-Reply-To: <B6EA0941.4E8C%danielf@thecreativepartnership.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10103301255180.62527-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.n
  et>


On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Daniel Farnworth wrote:

> Is this level of spam normal for this list? I have been on list for 18hrs
> now, have received 8-10 ucm's and not one genuine mail???

You're right.  There's been scarcely any spam today.

Don't worry, though; it's sure to pick up over the weekend.

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From jdd at vbc.net  Fri Mar 30 03:56:03 2001
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:56:03 +0100 (BST)
Subject: SPAM
In-Reply-To: <B6EA0941.4E8C%danielf@thecreativepartnership.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10103301255180.62527-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.net>


On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Daniel Farnworth wrote:

> Is this level of spam normal for this list? I have been on list for 18hrs
> now, have received 8-10 ucm's and not one genuine mail???

You're right.  There's been scarcely any spam today.

Don't worry, though; it's sure to pick up over the weekend.

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




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Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:15:13
Subject: ADV ADLT: MyBottomDrawer.com's March Newsletter!
Message-ID: <186.839752.817935@kono.treffer.nl>


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From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Mar 30 13:32:31 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:32:31 -0800
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010330081835.007ffb50@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329215237.04230950@pop3.lvcm.com>
 <v04220802b6e9ca330ab8@[198.4.94.197]>
 <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
 <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010330132617.04430400@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 08:18 AM 3/30/01 -0800, you wrote:
>At 09:53 PM 3/29/01 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
> >>Just make Halloween a year long celebration.
> >
> >I doubt it would get strong consideration from a religious standpoint.
> >
> >
> >>Regards,  Matt-
>
>In some places, yes, but we have a constitution that prohibits
>favoring one over another.  Theoretically.

Yeah, but only theoretically.

Consider the persecutions of Mormons in the 1870, ostensibly over religion 
when the real problem was their ballot and officeholder dominance of the 
Utah Territory thwarting the goals of D.C. politicians and wealthy 
non-Mormons (many outside the state) who wanted statehood and more Federal 
control.

Prohibitions over the use of psychotropics by Native Americans is another.

steve




From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Mar 30 13:38:59 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:38:59 -0800
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010330081702.007ff8d0@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329192612.0424ca90@pop3.lvcm.com>
 <3AC3F8E6.7157186D@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010330133313.04436060@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 08:17 AM 3/30/01 -0800, you wrote:
>At 07:30 PM 3/29/01 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
> >At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >>http://www.sightings.com/politics6/dwbb.htm
> >
> >There have been a few discussions on this list of possible means for
> >defeating such systems operating in public places.  I recall suggesting a
> >new religion, whose worshipers are encouraged to appear with veils and
> >masks, might make an interesting legal challenge to anti-mask laws in 
> effect.
>
>I've pointed this out before, but many randoms (esp females) wear false hair
>and facial camo.  Add some Jackie-O accoutrements and you've got your
>'religious worshippers' (and some *are* religious about wearing this,
>tithing significant fractions of their income) on the streets already.
>
>.....
>
>The red-light-camera folks don't send a ticket if they can't make out
>your face (judges demand it); one of their staff commented that they toss
>out pictures with
>low baseball caps (etc.) obscuring the faces, but they didn't think people
>do that *intentionally* to beat traffic cameras.  (LA Times story last week
>or so)

Not to mention placing some 3M privacy screen plastic over the license 
plate so only those directly behind and about the same elevation can view 
the characters.

steve




From freematt at coil.com  Fri Mar 30 10:44:02 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:44:02 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell and Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <200103301746.MAA23192@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20010330113530.A27617@ils.unc.edu>
 <200103301746.MAA23192@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <v04220801b6ea7fc393ab@[198.4.94.239]>


John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>As often discussed here, freedom fighter is synonymous
>with terrorist. As Jim Bell argues in his briefs, he was
>the one stalked by the feds.


This stuff is hardly new-  If you're going to engage in 
anti-governmental activity, even just speech, you're going to be a 
target of the investigatory police state.

On a routine basis I'm approached by what I consider either agents or 
agents provocateurs, both online and off, with an offer of some sort 
of illegal activity.  Usually they involve an offer of an illegal 
drug or an offer or a plea to help them convert a firearm to full 
auto. I politely inform them that those activities are illegal and I 
wouldn't be interested in them anyway (Which I'm not).

I've even outed a couple on occasion-  Once at a local civil rights 
meeting and another at a national machine gun shoot (Knob creek, KY).

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Mar 30 11:44:51 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:44:51 -0600
Subject: Complexity Theory - Collected Bibliography
Message-ID: <3AC4E233.1288F8A3@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.cea.uba.ar/aschu/biblio.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Mar 30 11:56:11 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:56:11 -0600
Subject: A Bibliography of Molecular Computation and Splicing Sytems
Message-ID: <3AC4E4DB.E8A51EE0@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.wi.leidenuniv.nl/~pier/dna.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 11:13:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:13:58 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell and Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <200103301746.MAA23192@blount.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:34:52PM -0500
References: <20010330113530.A27617@ils.unc.edu> <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFOEIEDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com> <200103301746.MAA23192@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010330141358.A15636@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:34:52PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> Declan's motion to quash, and the evidence it claims
> Declan has about the cypherpunk movement, are perfect

John is reading far more into this than exists, and his conspiracy
theorizing is working overtime. The "evidence" I have is nothing more
than my cypherpunks inbox and notes I may or may not have retained
from conversations with Jim Bell, that's all. The language in my
motion is standard journalist quash-this-please.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 11:21:28 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:21:28 -0500
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
Message-ID: <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com>



http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42745,00.html
   
   Secret Service Raids E-Gold
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   11:10 a.m. Mar. 30, 2001 PST
   
   WASHINGTON -- The Secret Service has raided a New York state business
   that exchanged dollars for grams of the digital currency called
   e-gold.
   
   A bevy of agents from the Secret Service, Postal Service and local
   police recently detained the owners of Gold-Age, based in Syracuse,
   and seized computers, files and documents from the fledgling firm.
   
   U.S. Attorney Daniel French said Friday that the investigation
   involved charges of credit card fraud. "We haven't brought charges
   yet," French said. "We're in the investigative phase."
   
   Gold-Age owner Parker Bradley says that during his eight-hour
   interrogation on March 12, the Secret Service seemed less interested
   in credit card fraud and more interested in the mechanics of e-gold.
   Until last year, Bradley accepted credit cards and paid out e-gold,
   but said he quit because too many people used stolen credit cards when
   conducting business with him.
   
   "The interrogation became less about me and more about politics and
   e-gold," Bradley said. "They were trying to get me to blame e-gold for
   fraud. Just to be blunt, these guys have no clue about how e-commerce
   works, how e-gold works or what I was doing."
   
   E-gold is a 5-year-old firm based on the Caribbean island of Nevis
   that provides an electronic currency backed by physical metal stored
   in vaults in London and Dubai. The company says it has 181,000 user
   accounts and stores about 1.4 metric tons of gold on behalf of its
   customers.
   
   Bradley's Gold-Age company, which he ran with his wife out of their
   home until the raid, was one of about a dozen e-gold currency exchange
   services: He took dollars and credited grams of gold, silver, platinum
   and palladium to a customer's account, less a modest fee.

   [...]

   Still unclear is why the raid took place. French indicated that it
   could be more than a routine credit card investigation, saying "at
   this point, it's being investigated as a credit card fraud."
   
   One possibility is a broader investigation directed at some users of
   e-gold, which is less anonymous than cash but more anonymous than
   credit cards. Former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers has warned of
   malcontents using the Net and encryption to dodge taxes, and it's
   possible that the feds don't exactly approve of a system that's more
   privacy-protective than the heavily regulated banking system.
   
   Current federal regulations require banks and credit unions -- about
   19,000 in all -- to inform federal law enforcement of all transactions
   $5,000 and above that have no "apparent lawful purpose or are not the
   sort in which the particular customer would normally be expected to
   engage."
   
   Because e-gold is not a bank that lends money -- it's more akin to a
   warehouse that stores gold on behalf of its customers -- it's not
   covered by those rules.
   
   Mike Godwin said the raid evokes memories of the notorious Steve
   Jackson Games raid by the Secret Service a decade ago, which led to
   the formation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

   [...]




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Fri Mar 30 14:23:26 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:23:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
Message-ID: <200103302226.OAA31936@user5.hushmail.com>


At 02:21 PM 3/30/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42745,00.html
   
   Secret Service Raids E-Gold
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   11:10 a.m. Mar. 30, 2001 PST
   
   WASHINGTON -- The Secret Service has raided a New York state business
   that exchanged dollars for grams of the digital currency called
   e-gold.
   
   A bevy of agents from the Secret Service, Postal Service and local
   police recently detained the owners of Gold-Age, based in Syracuse,
   and seized computers, files and documents from the fledgling firm.

Let this be a lesson to those operating such legal but controversial services 
that they keep all important records off site and use offshore systems to 
process and store data related to their transactions.  This way seizures 
of equipment become only a minor annoyance.

ks
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Mar 30 14:48:16 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:48:16 -0800
Subject: We've filed a motion to quash my subpoena from the DoJ
In-Reply-To: <20010330102728.B11644@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010330122838.00a6bec0@idiom.com>


Declan - Do you know how to reach this clueless reporter's editor?
Does Wired News _have_ editors that check this stuff out?

"Assassination Politics" is, of course, not a site, just an essay,
and while Bell may be an obsessive wacko, he does know the
technology well enough to know that digital cash and
anonymous remailers aren't sufficiently developed or deployed
to actually implement AP.  The web page that the article points to,
on John Young's Cryptome archive site, is not an assassination service,
but merely a copy of Bell's essay.

Given the current trial, this sort of irresponsible reporting is
not only potentially libelous, it could endanger Bell's
ability to get a fair trial if read by any potential jurors.

         Bill Stewart



>From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>Subject: FC: We've filed a motion to quash my subpoena from the DoJ
>To: politech at politechbot.com
>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:30:53 -0500
>X-URL: http://www.mccullagh.org/
>X-URL: Politech is at http://www.politechbot.com/
>User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i
>
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42735,00.html
>
>    When Reporting Becomes Testifying
>    by Farhad Manjoo
>    2:00 a.m. Mar. 30, 2001 PST
>
>    Declan McCullagh -- the Wired News reporter who on March 8 was
>    subpoenaed by the Justice Department to testify in the case against
>    cypherpunk Jim Bell -- filed a motion on Thursday with the U.S.
>    District Court to quash the subpoena, claiming it would violate the
>    First Amendment protections accorded to journalists.
>
>    Bell, who is famous for popularizing "Assassination Politics," a site
>    that incorporated digital cash and encryption in a scheme to
>    anonymously off political figures, has been charged with two counts of
>    violating federal stalking laws. The trial is set to begin on Tuesday
>    in Tacoma, Washington.
>
>    McCullagh has covered the Bell saga for Wired News, and the government
>    says it only needs him to verify the statements attributed to Bell in
>    two of McCullagh's stories, according to an e-mail sent to McCullagh
>    from Assistant U.S. Attorney Robb London.
>
>    But "that would leave a lot of leeway for the defense to ask me
>    questions -- and that's where it starts to get really messy really
>    quickly," McCullagh said on Thursday from his home in Washington, D.C.
>
>    [...]
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list
>You may redistribute this message freely if it remains intact.
>To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
>This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>----- End forwarded message -----





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Mar 30 06:09:14 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:09:14 +0100
Subject: SPAM
References: <B6EA0941.4E8C%danielf@thecreativepartnership.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3AC4938A.7F39B573@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Daniel Farnworth wrote:
 
> Is this level of spam normal for this list? I have been on list for 18hrs
> now, have received 8-10 ucm's and not one genuine mail???

It's pretty light actually. Back in 1996/7 you could have seen thousands
of spem by now. 

Your problem is toad.com - there is no one central cypherpunks list, it
is in effect a number of lists that cross-post to each other. They
impose various degrees of editorial control, or not. (Almost) all of
them are open to postings from anyone - one of the points of the list is
to be a place where anonymous or unpopular postings are permitted.

The list working out of toad.com has some known problems and it is
probably not a good idea to be using it.  Jim Choate will probably be
along in a minute to tell you about his web pages at
http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html which would also fill you in on
some background and point you at some of the other mailing lists. There
has been a lot of good said about the cypherpunks at lne.com list, which I
haven't tried myself yet so can't comment on in detail. I think I'm
using majordomo at sirius.infonex.com at the moment, it's hard to keep
track. (Like a lot of people here I tend to join & unjoin using
different addresses - also I post from an address different from the one
I read it on)
 
> ...computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as
> kids,  we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening
> to repetitive music...

ROFL :-) 

Do I really want to be around when the Doom generation grow up?

Ken Brown




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Mar 30 15:32:01 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:32:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No subject
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010330161025.14587t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103301522400.10009-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>
>On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>> Bus stations, train stations, airports, etc. are the WORST place to meet
>> in a 'high technology' society. The crowds won't do you any good.
>
>I should explain why,
>
>Cameras stop time.
>


In this matter, I fear, Jim's moment to be right has come around 
again.  Crowded noisy spaces are right when the threat model is 
humans listening and humans watching.  

When the threat model is machines recording, and data storage is 
cheap enough that people can go back through the system weeks 
or months later to see what went on exactly, Crowded noisy spaces 
are no longer right.

I don't even know what spaces are right for meetings any more, 
especially considering that this came up in the context of 
getting a vagrant to act as your physical agent in purchasing 
a MO.  The average vagrant has neither patience nor attention 
span nor trustworthiness for operations requiring more than a 
few hours of working for someone else, especially while holding 
a negotiable instrument and traversing a relatively witness-free 
space. 

*sigh*.  At best, you trade one risk for another.  At worst, 
the vagrant makes a fuss and yells for an officer and claims 
he's being robbed when you try to get the MO you paid for.  


				Bear




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Mar 30 13:36:44 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:36:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <3AC4AA33.B2B3014E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010330153504.14587e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> Classic bad move. Time to read up on your tradecraft Jim!
> 
> You need to meet in a public place, preferably crowded, where both of

Right, so you'll have dozens of cameras on you.

What you want in this situation is NO WITNESS, not lots of them and
especially not tourists with their 35mm's and the security systems in all
the various stores.

Bus stations, train stations, airports, etc. are the WORST place to meet
in a 'high technology' society. The crowds won't do you any good.

    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Mar 30 13:50:17 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:50:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell and Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <20010330141358.A15636@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010330154708.14587k-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Ah I see. So your editor confused the cpunks printouts you use for TP for
the actual mailing list...a natural mistake for a journalist, they can
never get the quote right :)

And no, I don't think Declan meant anything by 'movement' other than a
shared interest and motivation to participate (and they were saying on the
news just last nite the government wanted their citizens to participate).

    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:34:52PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> > Declan's motion to quash, and the evidence it claims
> > Declan has about the cypherpunk movement, are perfect
> 
> John is reading far more into this than exists, and his conspiracy
> theorizing is working overtime. The "evidence" I have is nothing more
> than my cypherpunks inbox and notes I may or may not have retained
> from conversations with Jim Bell, that's all. The language in my
> motion is standard journalist quash-this-please.
> 
> -Declan
> 




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Mar 30 12:53:08 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:53:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Phillip Morris ID database?
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10103301543590.15702-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>



I walked into the local 7-11 today. There was a scanner there and a man
next to it offering a free pack of cigarettes if he could scan your
drivers' license or other form of photo ID *and* you are an adult smoker. 

When I asked what this was all about, he told me that Phillip Morris is
trying to "update their ID database." Various promotional material was
present as well, but I didn't read any of it. 

Does anyone know more about this? Does Phillip Morris have an ID database,
and how often do they update it? 

thanks,
-David




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Mar 30 14:00:05 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:00:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <20010330104439.A11833@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103301527450.11842-100000@greeves.mfn.org>




Declan,

	If you'll look closely at the addresses to which my complaint was
mailed, you will note that it was directed to "broadwing.net" which is the
luser's ISP, and uu.net, the upstream NSP for broadwing: unless you also
have broadwing as your upstream provider, it should have been pretty
obvious that my complaint - oops, I'm sorry, my *censorship* - was not
directed at you.

	Yes, I hit the forward button on the wrong email within the
thread, and for any confusion, I apologize, however, it was pretty obvious
to *everyone* but you who the complaint was directed against.  

	As for being "censorhappy": shouldn't a	*journalist* do a little
more homework before (a) making such a sweeping declaration, and (b) using
his media access in such a directed and vindictive manner?  Possibly an
email to ask just what the hell was going on might have been more
appropriate?

	Do your homework: you'll find that I am pretty middle of the road
WRT "Muzzling Spammers".  I make the occassional complaint about the truly
stupid (such as our friend below), but in general, my reputation is that
of an anti-spammer "thorn".  In my experience, the anti-spammers generate
several orders of magnitude more trash with their bitching than the
original spammer did with their spam run.  I personally recieve between
500 and 700 emails a day (between home and offices), of which roughly
2/3rds is spam (a great number of these coming from this very list) - and
you know what?  Hitting "Delete" is just not that big a deal (no matter
*what* Net-Nazis like Vixie have to say).

	Basically Declan, I'm disappointed in you.

Yours,

J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org




On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:44:39 -0500
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
> To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Cc: measl at mfn.org, sysadmin at mfn.org
> Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
> 
> I invite all cypherpunks subscribers to let this censorhappy -- not to
> mention humorless -- sysadmin know what they think about spam
> complaints over a joke posted here:
> "J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>
> 
> I posted recently, in response to a help-me-spam message:
> > Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
> > As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.
> 
> And Terranson complained to my upstream provider that I was spamming
> (see message below).
> 
> I will be writing about the censorhappy behavior of Terranson/MFN
> in my next column.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> > > From measl at mfn.org  Thu Mar 29 13:58:18 2001
> > > Received: from imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net by iaremedy.corp.us.uu.net with
> ESMTP
> > > (peer crosschecked as: imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net [153.39.43.46])
> > > id QQkimd20740
> > > for <iaremedy-mail-spooler at iaremedy.corp.us.uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001
> 13:58:12 -0500 (EST)
> > > Received: from cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net by imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net with
> ESMTP
> > > (peer crosschecked as: cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net [198.5.241.40])
> > > id QQkimd22603
> > > for <abuse at uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:59:05 GMT
> > > Received: from cliff.mfn.org by cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net with ESMTP
> > > (peer crosschecked as: cliff.mfn.org [204.238.179.8])
> > > id QQkimd24648
> > > for <abuse at uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:59:05 GMT
> > > Received: from greeves.mfn.org (greeves.mfn.org [204.238.179.3])
> > > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2TIw7j10180;
> > > Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:58:12 -0600 (CST)
> > > (envelope-from measl at mfn.org)
> > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:58:07 -0600 (CST)
> > > From: "J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>
> > > To: abuse at broadwing.net
> > > cc: abuse at uu.net
> > > Subject: Your downstream spammer...
> > > Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103291257260.10465-110000 at greeves.mfn.org>
> > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > > Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1599177482-985892287=:10465"
> > >
> > >   This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable
> text,
> > >   while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware
> tools.
> > >   Send mail to mime at docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.
> > >
> > > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465
> > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> > >
> > >
> > > Please muzzle this idjit...
> > >
> > > --
> > > Yours,
> > > J.A. Terranson
> > > sysadmin at mfn.org
> > >
> > > If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings,
> they
> > > should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
> > > Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
> > > unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
> > > the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
> > > elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
> > > populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb
> electorate...
> > > This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
> > > as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist
> Republics.
> > >
> > > The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
> > > associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
> > > those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
> > > first place...
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465
> > > Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822; CHARSET=US-ASCII
> > > Content-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103291257290.10465 at greeves.mfn.org>
> > > Content-Description: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
> (fwd)
> > >
> > > Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com>
> > > Received: from einstein.ssz.com (einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99])
> > > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2TG9Ej09880
> > > for <measl at mfn.org>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:09:14 -0600 (CST)
> > > (envelope-from owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com)
> > > Received: (from mdom at localhost)
> > > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18391
> > > for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:05 -0600
> > > Received: from cluebot.com ([216.110.36.217])
> > > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18387
> > > for <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:02 -0600
> > > Received: by cluebot.com (Postfix, from userid 502)
> > > id D39A9104F1; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500 (EST)
> > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500
> > > From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
> > > To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>
> > > Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > > Subject: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
> > > Message-ID: <20010329104229.C1266 at cluebot.com>
> > > Mail-Followup-To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>,
> > > cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > > References: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA at EXBANGALORE>
> > > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > > Content-Disposition: inline
> > > User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i
> > > In-Reply-To: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA at EXBANGALORE>; from
> GaneshA at icode.com on Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530
> > > X-News-Site: http://www.wired.com/
> > > X-URL: http://www.mccullagh.org/
> > > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > > Precedence: bulk
> > > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > > X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > > X-Unsubscription-Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr
> > > X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com
> > > X-Loop: ssz.com
> > > X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish
> > >
> > >
> > > Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
> > > As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.
> > >
> > > -Declan
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530, Ganesh Acharya wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > We are looking forward to conduct a Bulk e-mail (HTML) campaign
> targeting
> > > > the SMEs and hence a bulk e-mail service provider. In this concern I
> would
> > > > like to know a few details:
> > > > 1) Do you mail HTML mails?
> > > > 2) In the context of the campaign can you host our micro site as until
> the
> > > > campaign gets over?
> > > > 3) Do you provide targeted e-mail addresses targeting the SMEs?
> > > >
> > > > I would appreciate if you can mail me the cost involved and any
> additional
> > > > service you provide in the domain of targeted bulk e-mail campaigns,
> ASAP.
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > Ganesh Acharya
> > > > Marketing Analyst - Web
> > > > Icode Inc
> > > > Ph: (703) 934 4700 Ext - 294
> > > > Fx: (703) 934 4708
> > > > mail: ganesha at icode.com
> > > > www.icode.com
> > > >
> > >
> > > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465--
> >
> 
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Mar 30 14:11:27 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:11:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010330153504.14587e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010330161025.14587t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Bus stations, train stations, airports, etc. are the WORST place to meet
> in a 'high technology' society. The crowds won't do you any good.

I should explain why,

Cameras stop time.

    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Mar 30 14:35:05 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:35:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: About that 'public' aspect to freedom of the press
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010330162622.14587u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



It seems to me that the standard 'a thing is a press and gets 1st
protection if it's publicly accessible' isn't sufficient and may not be
constitutional itself.

The first says the act and the hardware have special priviliges. These
priviliges aren't contengent upon public access or even use. Simple
possession of a press is protected. Now it is clear that a computer is a
'digital press', so shouldn't ALL computers be protected under the 1st?
When we bring the 'public' aspect into it all that happens is we move it
into speech or thought prior to distribution. The 1st says you have a
right to any thought you may desire, and you have a right to share that
thought with others. No if's, no and's, no but's.

If I create a politicaly confrontational poster but at the last minute I
chicken out and put the posters under the table. A cop comes in and finds
them and I am prosecuted, whereas if I had gone ahead and put them up I
would have been protected? I don't think so.

The 1st says '...any...' and that includes drawing distinctions.

    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Mar 30 07:45:56 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:45:56 +0100
Subject: your mail
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010329101534.14587t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3AC4AA33.B2B3014E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Jim Choate wrote:

[...snip...]

> For example, you could arrange to meet a bum at one time and place. Have
> the bum execute your plan (ie go into store and then head down street) and
> then meet you at another time and place. Have the two meeting in a
> residential neighborhood where you've scoured the neighborhood for obvious
> external cameras. 

Classic bad move. Time to read up on your tradecraft Jim!

You need to meet in a public place, preferably crowded, where both of
you might be reasonably expected to be found. Railway stations are the
classic case - noisy, busy, everyone goes there, and you have an excuse
to either rush through in a hurry or wait for hours. Noise drowns out
voice far better than distance conceals it.  Airport departure lounges
are probably too quiet. *Very* busy large shops might work. Supermarket
aisle at 18:00 the last working day before Christmas. Big sports events
might be good.  Yeah, yeah, they have cameras - but you aren't
pretending not to *be* there - all you want is to be able to pass a note
or a few private words - the bloody cameras can't lipread through the
back of your head - if they pull you up you just say you were talking
about the game - after all, mostly, you were. Loud music events would be
great. As long as both of you look like the sort of person who belongs
there. Smelly bum + 40-something fat guy in  a business suit probably
would look out of place in a hardcore dance club, but might get away
with it in some other venue. In England, pubs are surprisingly useful
for this sort of thing. 

Residential areas where you don't live yourself are likely to draw
attention to you. As for "scouring the neighbourhood", it's hard to
think of a worse way. 

In the city thousands of people pass each other surreptitious packages
every day. How many get caught by cameras?


Ken




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Fri Mar 30 14:46:51 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:46:51 -0500
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
In-Reply-To: <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <HIEAKGFJFMEBPPNLCACMCEHLCCAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



is this related to the raid?
http://www.caymannetnews.com/Archive/Archive%20Articles/November%202000/Issu
e%2031/IRSnowgoing.html

summary: irs cracking down on offshore banks using credit cards as access
mechanism to overseas accounts.  perhaps this is related to the case noted
below.
phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 2:21 PM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger




http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42745,00.html

   Secret Service Raids E-Gold
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   11:10 a.m. Mar. 30, 2001 PST

   WASHINGTON -- The Secret Service has raided a New York state business
   that exchanged dollars for grams of the digital currency called
   e-gold.

   A bevy of agents from the Secret Service, Postal Service and local
   police recently detained the owners of Gold-Age, based in Syracuse,
   and seized computers, files and documents from the fledgling firm.

   U.S. Attorney Daniel French said Friday that the investigation
   involved charges of credit card fraud. "We haven't brought charges
   yet," French said. "We're in the investigative phase."

   Gold-Age owner Parker Bradley says that during his eight-hour
   interrogation on March 12, the Secret Service seemed less interested
   in credit card fraud and more interested in the mechanics of e-gold.
   Until last year, Bradley accepted credit cards and paid out e-gold,
   but said he quit because too many people used stolen credit cards when
   conducting business with him.

   "The interrogation became less about me and more about politics and
   e-gold," Bradley said. "They were trying to get me to blame e-gold for
   fraud. Just to be blunt, these guys have no clue about how e-commerce
   works, how e-gold works or what I was doing."

   E-gold is a 5-year-old firm based on the Caribbean island of Nevis
   that provides an electronic currency backed by physical metal stored
   in vaults in London and Dubai. The company says it has 181,000 user
   accounts and stores about 1.4 metric tons of gold on behalf of its
   customers.

   Bradley's Gold-Age company, which he ran with his wife out of their
   home until the raid, was one of about a dozen e-gold currency exchange
   services: He took dollars and credited grams of gold, silver, platinum
   and palladium to a customer's account, less a modest fee.

   [...]

   Still unclear is why the raid took place. French indicated that it
   could be more than a routine credit card investigation, saying "at
   this point, it's being investigated as a credit card fraud."

   One possibility is a broader investigation directed at some users of
   e-gold, which is less anonymous than cash but more anonymous than
   credit cards. Former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers has warned of
   malcontents using the Net and encryption to dodge taxes, and it's
   possible that the feds don't exactly approve of a system that's more
   privacy-protective than the heavily regulated banking system.

   Current federal regulations require banks and credit unions -- about
   19,000 in all -- to inform federal law enforcement of all transactions
   $5,000 and above that have no "apparent lawful purpose or are not the
   sort in which the particular customer would normally be expected to
   engage."

   Because e-gold is not a bank that lends money -- it's more akin to a
   warehouse that stores gold on behalf of its customers -- it's not
   covered by those rules.

   Mike Godwin said the raid evokes memories of the notorious Steve
   Jackson Games raid by the Secret Service a decade ago, which led to
   the formation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

   [...]





From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Fri Mar 30 14:51:01 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:51:01 -0500
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
In-Reply-To: <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <HIEAKGFJFMEBPPNLCACMGEHLCCAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


need a clarification: is it $5,000 for le and $10,000 or $25,000 for
mandatory reporting to the irs? btw i do know banks will volunteer
suspicious transactions, no matter how small, to the irs.  i believe this is
how a fed. treasury worker was caught...he thought depositing smaller
amounts (<$9,000) would go unnoticed.

this link to declan's article which raises my above question.
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,20498,00.html
phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 2:21 PM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger




http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42745,00.html

   Secret Service Raids E-Gold
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   11:10 a.m. Mar. 30, 2001 PST

   WASHINGTON -- The Secret Service has raided a New York state business
   that exchanged dollars for grams of the digital currency called
   e-gold.

   A bevy of agents from the Secret Service, Postal Service and local
   police recently detained the owners of Gold-Age, based in Syracuse,
   and seized computers, files and documents from the fledgling firm.

   U.S. Attorney Daniel French said Friday that the investigation
   involved charges of credit card fraud. "We haven't brought charges
   yet," French said. "We're in the investigative phase."

   Gold-Age owner Parker Bradley says that during his eight-hour
   interrogation on March 12, the Secret Service seemed less interested
   in credit card fraud and more interested in the mechanics of e-gold.
   Until last year, Bradley accepted credit cards and paid out e-gold,
   but said he quit because too many people used stolen credit cards when
   conducting business with him.

   "The interrogation became less about me and more about politics and
   e-gold," Bradley said. "They were trying to get me to blame e-gold for
   fraud. Just to be blunt, these guys have no clue about how e-commerce
   works, how e-gold works or what I was doing."

   E-gold is a 5-year-old firm based on the Caribbean island of Nevis
   that provides an electronic currency backed by physical metal stored
   in vaults in London and Dubai. The company says it has 181,000 user
   accounts and stores about 1.4 metric tons of gold on behalf of its
   customers.

   Bradley's Gold-Age company, which he ran with his wife out of their
   home until the raid, was one of about a dozen e-gold currency exchange
   services: He took dollars and credited grams of gold, silver, platinum
   and palladium to a customer's account, less a modest fee.

   [...]

   Still unclear is why the raid took place. French indicated that it
   could be more than a routine credit card investigation, saying "at
   this point, it's being investigated as a credit card fraud."

   One possibility is a broader investigation directed at some users of
   e-gold, which is less anonymous than cash but more anonymous than
   credit cards. Former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers has warned of
   malcontents using the Net and encryption to dodge taxes, and it's
   possible that the feds don't exactly approve of a system that's more
   privacy-protective than the heavily regulated banking system.

   Current federal regulations require banks and credit unions -- about
   19,000 in all -- to inform federal law enforcement of all transactions
   $5,000 and above that have no "apparent lawful purpose or are not the
   sort in which the particular customer would normally be expected to
   engage."

   Because e-gold is not a bank that lends money -- it's more akin to a
   warehouse that stores gold on behalf of its customers -- it's not
   covered by those rules.

   Mike Godwin said the raid evokes memories of the notorious Steve
   Jackson Games raid by the Secret Service a decade ago, which led to
   the formation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

   [...]





From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Fri Mar 30 15:59:29 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:59:29 -0600
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
  (defense fund)
In-Reply-To: <HIEAKGFJFMEBPPNLCACMGEHLCCAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEMICIAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


pz said:

> need a clarification: is it $5,000 for le and $10,000 or $25,000 for
> mandatory reporting to the irs? btw i do know banks will volunteer
> suspicious transactions, no matter how small, to the irs.  i
> believe this is
> how a fed. treasury worker was caught...he thought depositing smaller
> amounts (<$9,000) would go unnoticed.

CTR/SARs now automatically generated by "money laundering software" and the
friendly people at FINdCENts. pz, don't you bank at The Willful Blindness
Bank & Trust?

~Aimee

PS: Do you know your Ill-gotten-gains ABCs?

SPECIAL NOTICE: we are still accepting crimes for J, Q, X, Y and Z.

Aircraft piracy
Alien smuggling
Arms export
Bank fraud
Bank robbery and burglary of government property
Bank Secrecy Act crimes
Bankruptcy fraud
Bribery
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Conspiracy to kill, kidnap or maim a person or injure certain property in a
foreign country
Contraband cigarettes, trafficking in
Copyright infringement
Counterfeit goods, trafficking in
Counterfeiting and forgery
Customs crimes
Destruction by explosives or fire of government property or property
affecting interstate commerce
Destruction of aircraft
Embezzlement and theft
Emergency Economic Powers Act crimes
Espionage
Export Crimes
Extortion and threats
Extortionate credit transactions
Food stamp crimes
Foreign corrupt practices
Foreign law violations: extortion; fraud against a foreign bank; kidnapping;
murder or destruction of property by means of explosive or fire; narcotics;
robbery
Fraud and false statements
Gambling
Health care fraud
Influencing, impeding or retaliating against federal official by threatening
or injuring family member
J [UNREGISTERED! REGISTER NOW!]
Kidnapping
Labor-management financial transaction fraud, union embezzlement
Mail fraud
Mail, theft from
Malicious mischief
Murder on a federal facility
Murder of employees of the U.S.
Murder of foreign officials, official guests or foreign protected persons
Narcotics offenses
National resource conservation
Nationality and citizenship, unlawful procurement
Obscenity
Obstruction of justice
Ocean dumping
Passport and visa crimes
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Q [UNREGISTERED! REGISTER NOW!]
Racketeering
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Sexual activity, transportation for illegal
Sexual exploitation of children
State felonies: arson, bribery, dealing in obscene matter, extortion,
gambling, kidnapping, murder, robbery, narcotics
Stolen property, trafficking in
Tariff Act
Terrorism
Trading With The Enemy
Unauthorized sound and video recordings, fixation and trafficking in
Violence against maritime navigation and fixed platforms
Violence at international airports
Water pollution
Wire fraud
X [UNREGISTERED! REGISTER NOW!]
Y [UNREGISTERED! REGISTER NOW!]
Z [UNREGISTERED! REGISTER NOW!]




From Tonya at toad.com  Fri Mar 30 18:10:58 2001
From: Tonya at toad.com (Tonya at toad.com)
Date: 30 Mar 2001 18:10:58 -0800
Subject: FWD: Nasty NAsty
Message-ID: <200103301903828.SM00464@mail.sisna.com>


--------------------------------------------------------------------
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(This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version)
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From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Fri Mar 30 18:27:14 2001
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:27:14 -0800
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <20010330104439.A11833@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3AC4D001.10959.9EF58B7@localhost>


On 30 Mar 2001, at 10:44, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I invite all cypherpunks subscribers to let this censorhappy -- not to
> mention humorless -- sysadmin know what they think about spam
> complaints over a joke posted here:
> "J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>

If you check out the mfn.org web site, Missouri FreeNet, you will 
note Mr. Terranson is Mr. MFN, or at least one of them.  Mr. 
Terranson has over 20 years experience in the BBS and Internet 
business.  A real pioneer you might state.  

He either has no humor or he fails to completely understand what 
he reads.  I find many of the anti-spam folk to be as bad as the 
spammers.  Where do you draw the line?  If people are so keen to 
jump on spammers they fail to properly understand the nature of a 
post you have a big problem.  Imagine what would happen if your 
local police force was given authority to police spammers?  If the 
police had the intellectual ability of Mr. Terranson many 
Cypherpunks would soon be in jail in a digital age version of the 
Inquisition.

A long time ago, or what seems a long time ago, I supported the 
notion that the Cypherpunk list be moderated.  At the time a major 
concern was 2 or 3 or 4 posts a day from an anonymous source 
disparaging the character of Tim May.  It was assumed the source 
of the posts was Dimitri Vulis (spelling?).  It was decided that there 
should be moderation and I thought it would be good.  I now 
understand the problems with that approach.  

The question is how do you deal with spam?  The anti-spam folks 
are looking more like bigoted Nazis racing to launch complaints on 
anything resembling spam.  Lots of users will complain to their ISP 
when the ISP implements anti-spam measures as their mailbox is 
obvious broke as there are no messages in it.

I try not to read spam and would never buy anything from anyone 
who spams or calls me at home.  I would love to be forever rid of 
spam but don't believe we can trust politicians to write the right law.  
Idealistically we could all not buy anything from spammers and 
eventually they would realize there was no return from spam and 
stop but some newbie schmuck is always going to buy something 
from the spammers so that won't work.  

Anyone have any thoughts on eliminating spam other than filters 
and hitting the delete key or button?



Virtually 

Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond at fbntech.com
FBN - Delivering on the policy of "Lowered Expectations"
http://www.fbntech.com/service1.html




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Mar 30 09:59:34 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:59:34 +0100
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell and Cypherpunks
References: <NDBBJHDEELOIJNHFGNOFOEIEDDAA.sandfort@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3AC4C986.70598BAC@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> Greg wrote:
> 
> > One of the biggest tactics of the feds seems
> > to be creating a "movement" or some other
> > sort of organization, then accusing people of
> > leading, supporting, creating or otherwise
> > being a part of it.
> 
> Hey, I don't know about you guys, but I participate in a Cypherpunk
> DISCUSSION group.  At least, that's what it says on my Cypherpunk charter
> membership certificate, ID card and secret decoder ring.

You mean you didn't get the hat? I thought everyone got the hat.  Fancy
not having the hat. Whatever next?  

I'd watch out if I were you - Comrade Number One might be going to
denounce you at the next Central Committee meeting.

Ken




From djackson at omnipay.net  Fri Mar 30 16:05:34 2001
From: djackson at omnipay.net (Douglas Jackson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:05:34 -0500
Subject: Secret Service Raids E-Gold
Message-ID: <mailman.391.1576007507.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

I am the founder and Chairman of e-gold Ltd.

Contrary to the luridly irresponsible and actionable headline on this
article, there has been no raid on e-gold Ltd., or on Gold & Silver
Reserve Inc. [dba  OmniPay http://www.omnipay.net ], the company that
originally developed  the e-gold system and currently serves as
Operator.

The more edifying reality is that e-gold is the world's first
electronic currency designed for borderless eCommerce, enabling the
worldwide use of gold as money. It merges the digital transaction
efficiencies of an electronic payment system with a universally
acceptable basis of value.

The advantages of e-gold include:
� Low transaction fees � The maximum payment processing fee is 50 cents
(US-equiv.). For a $1000 value payment, this is less than one twentieth
as much as credit cards.
� Immediate settlement � e-gold payments clear instantaneously, no
matter how large or small the payment, no matter how far apart the
spender and recipient.
� Non-repudiation � No chargebacks. Get paid, stay paid.
� Direct access with bi-directionality � Anyone can pay or be paid.
� Automation support � The e-gold Shopping Cart Interface is easily
implemented and provides immediate authenticated notification of
completed payment.
� Zero financial risk � e-gold is the world�s first remote payment
system backed 100% by physical gold in allocated storage.

e-gold is in fact succeeding where other electronic payment initiatives
are failing because it is designed specifically for worldwide eCommerce.
All others merely add additional layers of liability to legacy systems.

Since online launch November 1996, the e-gold system has been growing at
an accelerating pace. As of April 2000, 100,000  transactions had been
settled. The one millionth transaction was November 2000 and the second
million mark surpassed in March 2001.

It is regrettable that the first time many people will hear of e-gold(r)
will be this sloppy and damaging Wired headline.

Dr. Douglas Jackson
Founder of e-gold

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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From measl at mfn.org  Fri Mar 30 17:34:53 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:34:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330200032.02121840@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103301905050.12264-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> You forwarded one of my messages to my upstream provider 

I gather from this that you and "The Idjit" share a common upstream
path?  Let's see now: you're [supposed] to be a reasonably "bright" guy -
It didn't occur to you that the upstream NSP was contacted because they
are the next in line from the ISP?   Are you saying [with a straight
face] that you don't know what you are looking at?

Disingenuous.  Totally.

> (and someone else's upstream provider) 


Bzzt.  I complained to the upstream ISP, and their upstream NSP.  Normal
practice and procedure: I personally have to look at several thousands of
these a day at work...

> ,complaining about my alleged spam.

Look again Declan (clue: the email I complained about *is _clearly_
visible, in your original tirade about me - see below*.  Nowhere did we
complain about you: anyone with the reading abilities of an
armchair could see what we were bitching about.  Sorry that UU has an
abuse desk staffed with dropouts from the short bus, but such is
life...  Maybe you should have pointed ot the obvious to them, ya?  Of
course, it's obviously *much* more satisfying for you to yell and scream
like a 4 year old who has been rejected from the Romper Room Playtime
Games...

> This has led 
> my network provider to contact me, and has introduced friction into our 
> relationship.

Then maybe you need a new provider.  We, like everyone else, gets
complaints.  A responsible upstream is going to actually *examine* any
complaints for validity before taking any action.  If your ISP doesn't
fall into this category then you shouldn't be doing business with them
should you?
 
> I understand now this was a mistake on your part.

		B Z Z Z T T ! ! ! !

Wrong:  *OUR* part.  But unlike us, you are apparently unwilling to accept
your piece of responsibility.  You went off half cocked, with no looking
back, and now it has [rightfully] bitten you in the ass.  You have abused
your position as a "journalist" here.  You have sullied your own
reputation here.  And you did it all by yourself.

I made an honest mistake, and acknowledged it openly when it was pointed
out.  

You went off on your little revenge kick, and now that the world can see
you in the dark colors you have painted yourself with you are pissed off
and looking to dump YOUR responsibilities. You want the world to think of
you as a responsible, honorable, and *honest* journalist?  After THIS?  

Yeah.  Right.
 
> But I'm not sure if the 
> conclusion from this episode is that I should be one who should be more 
> careful -- shouldn't you be more careful before accusing someone of spamming?

Why don't YOU be more careful before accusing someone of being
Censorhappy?

Pot. Kettle.  VERY black.

As I said before: I am *very* disappointed in you - I *thought* you were
better than this.
 
> -Declan

J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

==========================================================================

> 
> At 04:00 PM 3/30/01 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
> 
> 
> >Declan,
> >
> >         If you'll look closely at the addresses to which my complaint was
> >mailed, you will note that it was directed to "broadwing.net" which is the
> >luser's ISP, and uu.net, the upstream NSP for broadwing: unless you also
> >have broadwing as your upstream provider, it should have been pretty
> >obvious that my complaint - oops, I'm sorry, my *censorship* - was not
> >directed at you.
> >
> >         Yes, I hit the forward button on the wrong email within the
> >thread, and for any confusion, I apologize, however, it was pretty obvious
> >to *everyone* but you who the complaint was directed against.
> >
> >         As for being "censorhappy": shouldn't a *journalist* do a little
> >more homework before (a) making such a sweeping declaration, and (b) using
> >his media access in such a directed and vindictive manner?  Possibly an
> >email to ask just what the hell was going on might have been more
> >appropriate?
> >
> >         Do your homework: you'll find that I am pretty middle of the road
> >WRT "Muzzling Spammers".  I make the occassional complaint about the truly
> >stupid (such as our friend below), but in general, my reputation is that
> >of an anti-spammer "thorn".  In my experience, the anti-spammers generate
> >several orders of magnitude more trash with their bitching than the
> >original spammer did with their spam run.  I personally recieve between
> >500 and 700 emails a day (between home and offices), of which roughly
> >2/3rds is spam (a great number of these coming from this very list) - and
> >you know what?  Hitting "Delete" is just not that big a deal (no matter
> >*what* Net-Nazis like Vixie have to say).
> >
> >         Basically Declan, I'm disappointed in you.
> >
> >Yours,
> >
> >J.A. Terranson
> >sysadmin at mfn.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:44:39 -0500
> > > From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
> > > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> > > Cc: measl at mfn.org, sysadmin at mfn.org
> > > Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
> > >
> > > I invite all cypherpunks subscribers to let this censorhappy -- not to
> > > mention humorless -- sysadmin know what they think about spam
> > > complaints over a joke posted here:
> > > "J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>
> > >
> > > I posted recently, in response to a help-me-spam message:
> > > > Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
> > > > As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.
> > >
> > > And Terranson complained to my upstream provider that I was spamming
> > > (see message below).
> > >
> > > I will be writing about the censorhappy behavior of Terranson/MFN
> > > in my next column.
> > >
> > > -Declan
> > >
> > > > > From measl at mfn.org  Thu Mar 29 13:58:18 2001
> > > > > Received: from imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net by iaremedy.corp.us.uu.net with
> > > ESMTP
> > > > > (peer crosschecked as: imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net [153.39.43.46])
> > > > > id QQkimd20740
> > > > > for <iaremedy-mail-spooler at iaremedy.corp.us.uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001
> > > 13:58:12 -0500 (EST)
> > > > > Received: from cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net by imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net with
> > > ESMTP
> > > > > (peer crosschecked as: cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net [198.5.241.40])
> > > > > id QQkimd22603
> > > > > for <abuse at uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:59:05 GMT
> > > > > Received: from cliff.mfn.org by cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net with ESMTP
> > > > > (peer crosschecked as: cliff.mfn.org [204.238.179.8])
> > > > > id QQkimd24648
> > > > > for <abuse at uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:59:05 GMT
> > > > > Received: from greeves.mfn.org (greeves.mfn.org [204.238.179.3])
> > > > > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2TIw7j10180;
> > > > > Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:58:12 -0600 (CST)
> > > > > (envelope-from measl at mfn.org)
> > > > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:58:07 -0600 (CST)
> > > > > From: "J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>
> > > > > To: abuse at broadwing.net
> > > > > cc: abuse at uu.net
> > > > > Subject: Your downstream spammer...
> > > > > Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103291257260.10465-110000 at greeves.mfn.org>
> > > > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > > > > Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1599177482-985892287=:10465"
> > > > >
> > > > >   This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable
> > > text,
> > > > >   while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware
> > > tools.
> > > > >   Send mail to mime at docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.
> > > > >
> > > > > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465
> > > > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please muzzle this idjit...
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Yours,
> > > > > J.A. Terranson
> > > > > sysadmin at mfn.org
> > > > >
> > > > > If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings,
> > > they
> > > > > should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
> > > > > Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
> > > > > unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input 
> > on in
> > > > > the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
> > > > > elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
> > > > > populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb
> > > electorate...
> > > > > This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
> > > > > as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist
> > > Republics.
> > > > >
> > > > > The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
> > > > > associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
> > > > > those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
> > > > > first place...
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465
> > > > > Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822; CHARSET=US-ASCII
> > > > > Content-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103291257290.10465 at greeves.mfn.org>
> > > > > Content-Description: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
> > > (fwd)
> > > > >
> > > > > Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com>
> > > > > Received: from einstein.ssz.com (einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99])
> > > > > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2TG9Ej09880
> > > > > for <measl at mfn.org>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:09:14 -0600 (CST)
> > > > > (envelope-from owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com)
> > > > > Received: (from mdom at localhost)
> > > > > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18391
> > > > > for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:05 -0600
> > > > > Received: from cluebot.com ([216.110.36.217])
> > > > > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18387
> > > > > for <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:02 -0600
> > > > > Received: by cluebot.com (Postfix, from userid 502)
> > > > > id D39A9104F1; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500 (EST)
> > > > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500
> > > > > From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
> > > > > To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>
> > > > > Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
> > > > > Message-ID: <20010329104229.C1266 at cluebot.com>
> > > > > Mail-Followup-To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>,
> > > > > cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > > > > References: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA at EXBANGALORE>
> > > > > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > > > > Content-Disposition: inline
> > > > > User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i
> > > > > In-Reply-To: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA at EXBANGALORE>; from
> > > GaneshA at icode.com on Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530
> > > > > X-News-Site: http://www.wired.com/
> > > > > X-URL: http://www.mccullagh.org/
> > > > > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > > > > Precedence: bulk
> > > > > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > > > > X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > > > > X-Unsubscription-Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr
> > > > > X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com
> > > > > X-Loop: ssz.com
> > > > > X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
> > > > > As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Declan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530, Ganesh Acharya wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We are looking forward to conduct a Bulk e-mail (HTML) campaign
> > > targeting
> > > > > > the SMEs and hence a bulk e-mail service provider. In this concern I
> > > would
> > > > > > like to know a few details:
> > > > > > 1) Do you mail HTML mails?
> > > > > > 2) In the context of the campaign can you host our micro site as 
> > until
> > > the
> > > > > > campaign gets over?
> > > > > > 3) Do you provide targeted e-mail addresses targeting the SMEs?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would appreciate if you can mail me the cost involved and any
> > > additional
> > > > > > service you provide in the domain of targeted bulk e-mail campaigns,
> > > ASAP.
> > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ganesh Acharya
> > > > > > Marketing Analyst - Web
> > > > > > Icode Inc
> > > > > > Ph: (703) 934 4700 Ext - 294
> > > > > > Fx: (703) 934 4708
> > > > > > mail: ganesha at icode.com
> > > > > > www.icode.com
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465--
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- End forwarded message -----
> > >
> >
> >--
> >Yours,
> >J.A. Terranson
> >sysadmin at mfn.org
> >
> >If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
> >should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
> >Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
> >unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
> >the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
> >elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
> >populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
> >This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
> >as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
> >
> >The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
> >associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
> >those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
> >first place...
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Fri Mar 30 16:46:16 2001
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:46:16 -0500
Subject: [null] (Meeting Techniques)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103301522400.10009-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010330161025.14587t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010330194616.00ffc028@ct2.nai.net>


Meetings...

Basicly, the reality suggests that you should assume everything and
anything is known by any party interested. The complexities of this
knowledge and correlation database are far more vast than your
comprehension of yourself. 

Assume All is known.

Based on this, any highly-public or open location is best suited for
discussions on theorhetical or conceptual activities, however the
assumption here is that your ability to cognise and PRODUCE/ACTIVATE the
desired operation is far supperior than the ability of the 'others' to
deduce your operations.

You work on your primary project or activity, they must deal with a far
more vast structure of heirchy or tactical information. Your internal logic
and connections with your affiliates is a direct link at higher complexity
than the surface appearance. "What exactly did he mean by that?" Is the key
question that will arise in an external analysis. You comprehend what you
do, they must deduce it before comprehending.

On the inverse, any attempt to disguise or 'hide' activities will generate
additional interest in the thing, due to technologies available, there are
very few "secure" environments or capacities in which to disguise or ghost
operations. You may assume that any attempt to hide will result in more
expediant review and higher concentrations of resources (intellectual or
otherwise) expended on your analysis.

Unless you have a perfect environment, which with current techology on the
public market, none such exist (no less that tech which we have not
formally seen).

Therefore the intellectual war becomes truely intellectual. Who can
produce, accomplish, or otherwise activate the desired operation in a
manner supperior to another?

In context, it is your head against mine. If you stimulate my interest by
hiding, you reduce your obscurity. 
If you do not waste my time and tell me what you are doing (which I can
deduce within a short duration of analysis), then no undue heed will be
taken to your activities, other than a routine analysis and notation. ["I"
is conceptual]

The existance of reality is based on a ballence. This must be sustained so
as to not disrupt the perceptions of "sheep" or "good"/"bad" ... If you
have a legitimate antagonistic project, your activities may be more
desirable than not. If you stimulate 'competition' or whatnot, your chances
of success are far higher than being eliminated due to unknown motivations
for doing something. Intellectia is the goal, there is no reason to hide,
there is reason to do, effeciently.

Contrary, if you have a production project, it would be best to utilize
semi-secure mediums and context so your low-level competitors do not usurp
your work. On the broader spectrum, any competant logistic or intellectual
activity will be reconstructable by infinitely many parties. Assume they
know what you do, and strive to do something new rather than waste
everyone's time hiding or suppressing common knowledge.

All is known. Technology prevents total secrecy. Conceptual secrecy is the
remaining factor, and the utilization of this concept is of highest
importance in any activity.

Can you function quicker, more efficiently, or more optimally than others?
If you are concerned about the others and are not dilusional, then you have
a high chance of completing the operation in a far more ideal manner.

Let be known what will be known, however if something is more advanced than
common comprehension, keep it quiet, yet not evasive in proportion, and
allow reality to flow. The chances that others can reproduce what you think
of in YOUR head as effectively as you can think on your own, is highly
unlikely with 'current' technology.

As such, ignore the threat of others' knowledge, your perception of this is
dilusional. If you know it, someone else does. If you came up with it, it
is probible that at least some other entity was able to do the same thing.
If not, then you can expect to incorporate their capacities with your new
revelations. Such is modern reality.

Where is the best meeting place? -- Such is no longer relevant if all is
known. How you utilize your choice of meeting place definitely is.

In the pursuit of a competant reality...

-Wilfred L. Guerin
Wilfred at Cryogen.com



At 03:32 PM 3/30/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>>On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>>
>>> Bus stations, train stations, airports, etc. are the WORST place to meet
>>> in a 'high technology' society. The crowds won't do you any good.
>>
>>I should explain why,
>>
>>Cameras stop time.
>
>In this matter, I fear, Jim's moment to be right has come around 
>again.  Crowded noisy spaces are right when the threat model is 
>humans listening and humans watching.  
>
>When the threat model is machines recording, and data storage is 
>cheap enough that people can go back through the system weeks 
>or months later to see what went on exactly, Crowded noisy spaces 
>are no longer right.
>
>I don't even know what spaces are right for meetings any more, 
>especially considering that this came up in the context of 
>getting a vagrant to act as your physical agent in purchasing 
>a MO.  The average vagrant has neither patience nor attention 
>span nor trustworthiness for operations requiring more than a 
>few hours of working for someone else, especially while holding 
>a negotiable instrument and traversing a relatively witness-free 
>space. 
>
>*sigh*.  At best, you trade one risk for another.  At worst, 
>the vagrant makes a fuss and yells for an officer and claims 
>he's being robbed when you try to get the MO you paid for.  
>
>				Bear





From measl at mfn.org  Fri Mar 30 17:51:24 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:51:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330203903.0200caa0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103301944560.12264-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Fact: You forwarded MY message to UUNET and said kill-this-spammer or 
> something to that effect.

Fact: I forwarded *A* message to UUNET, which is the upstream NSP for the
spammer-to-be's ISP.  The forwarded message had both your comment, AND the
actual offending email.  I have already (REPEATEDLY) acknowledged that the
part with your commentary was forwarded in error.  How about YOUR
acknowledgements?  How about addressing my POINTS?

> 
> The rest is hand-waving and after-the-fact justification.


I *absolutely* agree with this statement, and wish you would cut the crap.

> -Declan
> 
> PS: I agree that perhaps I should have been a little less harsh in calling 
> you "censorhappy."

Is that all?  Don't you think that prior to choosing such a wide brush you
should (as a "responsible journalist" of course) have maybe (JUST
MAYBE) done a little homework?  

Do you deny that your "piece" was little more than an "I'll show him not
to fuck with *ME*" excersize in chest beating? 


-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 17:03:19 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:03:19 -0500
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103301527450.11842-100000@greeves.mfn.org>
References: <20010330104439.A11833@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330200032.02121840@mail.well.com>


You forwarded one of my messages to my upstream provider (and someone 
else's upstream provider), complaining about my alleged spam. This has led 
my network provider to contact me, and has introduced friction into our 
relationship.

I understand now this was a mistake on your part. But I'm not sure if the 
conclusion from this episode is that I should be one who should be more 
careful -- shouldn't you be more careful before accusing someone of spamming?

-Declan


At 04:00 PM 3/30/01 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:


>Declan,
>
>         If you'll look closely at the addresses to which my complaint was
>mailed, you will note that it was directed to "broadwing.net" which is the
>luser's ISP, and uu.net, the upstream NSP for broadwing: unless you also
>have broadwing as your upstream provider, it should have been pretty
>obvious that my complaint - oops, I'm sorry, my *censorship* - was not
>directed at you.
>
>         Yes, I hit the forward button on the wrong email within the
>thread, and for any confusion, I apologize, however, it was pretty obvious
>to *everyone* but you who the complaint was directed against.
>
>         As for being "censorhappy": shouldn't a *journalist* do a little
>more homework before (a) making such a sweeping declaration, and (b) using
>his media access in such a directed and vindictive manner?  Possibly an
>email to ask just what the hell was going on might have been more
>appropriate?
>
>         Do your homework: you'll find that I am pretty middle of the road
>WRT "Muzzling Spammers".  I make the occassional complaint about the truly
>stupid (such as our friend below), but in general, my reputation is that
>of an anti-spammer "thorn".  In my experience, the anti-spammers generate
>several orders of magnitude more trash with their bitching than the
>original spammer did with their spam run.  I personally recieve between
>500 and 700 emails a day (between home and offices), of which roughly
>2/3rds is spam (a great number of these coming from this very list) - and
>you know what?  Hitting "Delete" is just not that big a deal (no matter
>*what* Net-Nazis like Vixie have to say).
>
>         Basically Declan, I'm disappointed in you.
>
>Yours,
>
>J.A. Terranson
>sysadmin at mfn.org
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:44:39 -0500
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
> > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> > Cc: measl at mfn.org, sysadmin at mfn.org
> > Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
> >
> > I invite all cypherpunks subscribers to let this censorhappy -- not to
> > mention humorless -- sysadmin know what they think about spam
> > complaints over a joke posted here:
> > "J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>
> >
> > I posted recently, in response to a help-me-spam message:
> > > Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
> > > As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.
> >
> > And Terranson complained to my upstream provider that I was spamming
> > (see message below).
> >
> > I will be writing about the censorhappy behavior of Terranson/MFN
> > in my next column.
> >
> > -Declan
> >
> > > > From measl at mfn.org  Thu Mar 29 13:58:18 2001
> > > > Received: from imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net by iaremedy.corp.us.uu.net with
> > ESMTP
> > > > (peer crosschecked as: imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net [153.39.43.46])
> > > > id QQkimd20740
> > > > for <iaremedy-mail-spooler at iaremedy.corp.us.uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001
> > 13:58:12 -0500 (EST)
> > > > Received: from cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net by imr1.ash.ops.us.uu.net with
> > ESMTP
> > > > (peer crosschecked as: cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net [198.5.241.40])
> > > > id QQkimd22603
> > > > for <abuse at uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:59:05 GMT
> > > > Received: from cliff.mfn.org by cmr2.ash.ops.us.uu.net with ESMTP
> > > > (peer crosschecked as: cliff.mfn.org [204.238.179.8])
> > > > id QQkimd24648
> > > > for <abuse at uu.net>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:59:05 GMT
> > > > Received: from greeves.mfn.org (greeves.mfn.org [204.238.179.3])
> > > > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2TIw7j10180;
> > > > Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:58:12 -0600 (CST)
> > > > (envelope-from measl at mfn.org)
> > > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:58:07 -0600 (CST)
> > > > From: "J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>
> > > > To: abuse at broadwing.net
> > > > cc: abuse at uu.net
> > > > Subject: Your downstream spammer...
> > > > Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103291257260.10465-110000 at greeves.mfn.org>
> > > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > > > Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1599177482-985892287=:10465"
> > > >
> > > >   This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable
> > text,
> > > >   while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware
> > tools.
> > > >   Send mail to mime at docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.
> > > >
> > > > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465
> > > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please muzzle this idjit...
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Yours,
> > > > J.A. Terranson
> > > > sysadmin at mfn.org
> > > >
> > > > If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings,
> > they
> > > > should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
> > > > Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
> > > > unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input 
> on in
> > > > the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
> > > > elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
> > > > populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb
> > electorate...
> > > > This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
> > > > as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist
> > Republics.
> > > >
> > > > The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
> > > > associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
> > > > those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
> > > > first place...
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465
> > > > Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822; CHARSET=US-ASCII
> > > > Content-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103291257290.10465 at greeves.mfn.org>
> > > > Content-Description: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
> > (fwd)
> > > >
> > > > Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com>
> > > > Received: from einstein.ssz.com (einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99])
> > > > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2TG9Ej09880
> > > > for <measl at mfn.org>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:09:14 -0600 (CST)
> > > > (envelope-from owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com)
> > > > Received: (from mdom at localhost)
> > > > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18391
> > > > for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:05 -0600
> > > > Received: from cluebot.com ([216.110.36.217])
> > > > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18387
> > > > for <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:02 -0600
> > > > Received: by cluebot.com (Postfix, from userid 502)
> > > > id D39A9104F1; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500 (EST)
> > > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500
> > > > From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
> > > > To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>
> > > > Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > > > Subject: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
> > > > Message-ID: <20010329104229.C1266 at cluebot.com>
> > > > Mail-Followup-To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>,
> > > > cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > > > References: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA at EXBANGALORE>
> > > > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > > > Content-Disposition: inline
> > > > User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i
> > > > In-Reply-To: <209D3E0ACB34D41198280050BAAB9F99BD54EA at EXBANGALORE>; from
> > GaneshA at icode.com on Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530
> > > > X-News-Site: http://www.wired.com/
> > > > X-URL: http://www.mccullagh.org/
> > > > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > > > Precedence: bulk
> > > > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > > > X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> > > > X-Unsubscription-Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr
> > > > X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com
> > > > X-Loop: ssz.com
> > > > X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
> > > > As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.
> > > >
> > > > -Declan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530, Ganesh Acharya wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > We are looking forward to conduct a Bulk e-mail (HTML) campaign
> > targeting
> > > > > the SMEs and hence a bulk e-mail service provider. In this concern I
> > would
> > > > > like to know a few details:
> > > > > 1) Do you mail HTML mails?
> > > > > 2) In the context of the campaign can you host our micro site as 
> until
> > the
> > > > > campaign gets over?
> > > > > 3) Do you provide targeted e-mail addresses targeting the SMEs?
> > > > >
> > > > > I would appreciate if you can mail me the cost involved and any
> > additional
> > > > > service you provide in the domain of targeted bulk e-mail campaigns,
> > ASAP.
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ganesh Acharya
> > > > > Marketing Analyst - Web
> > > > > Icode Inc
> > > > > Ph: (703) 934 4700 Ext - 294
> > > > > Fx: (703) 934 4708
> > > > > mail: ganesha at icode.com
> > > > > www.icode.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --0-1599177482-985892287=:10465--
> > >
> >
> >
> > ----- End forwarded message -----
> >
>
>--
>Yours,
>J.A. Terranson
>sysadmin at mfn.org
>
>If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
>should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
>Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
>unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
>the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
>elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
>populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
>This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
>as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
>
>The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
>associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
>those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
>first place...
>--------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 17:10:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:10:59 -0500
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
In-Reply-To: <HIEAKGFJFMEBPPNLCACMGEHLCCAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
References: <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>


Good question. I don't recall anymore; my article today linked to an 
archived Wired story that went into this in more detail and I believe 
linked to the appropriate regs. --Declan


At 05:51 PM 3/30/01 -0500, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:
>need a clarification: is it $5,000 for le and $10,000 or $25,000 for
>mandatory reporting to the irs? btw i do know banks will volunteer
>suspicious transactions, no matter how small, to the irs.  i believe this is
>how a fed. treasury worker was caught...he thought depositing smaller
>amounts (<$9,000) would go unnoticed.
>
>this link to declan's article which raises my above question.
>http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,20498,00.html
>phillip
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
>[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
>Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 2:21 PM
>To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
>
>
>
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42745,00.html
>
>    Secret Service Raids E-Gold
>    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
>    11:10 a.m. Mar. 30, 2001 PST
>
>    WASHINGTON -- The Secret Service has raided a New York state business
>    that exchanged dollars for grams of the digital currency called
>    e-gold.
>
>    A bevy of agents from the Secret Service, Postal Service and local
>    police recently detained the owners of Gold-Age, based in Syracuse,
>    and seized computers, files and documents from the fledgling firm.
>
>    U.S. Attorney Daniel French said Friday that the investigation
>    involved charges of credit card fraud. "We haven't brought charges
>    yet," French said. "We're in the investigative phase."
>
>    Gold-Age owner Parker Bradley says that during his eight-hour
>    interrogation on March 12, the Secret Service seemed less interested
>    in credit card fraud and more interested in the mechanics of e-gold.
>    Until last year, Bradley accepted credit cards and paid out e-gold,
>    but said he quit because too many people used stolen credit cards when
>    conducting business with him.
>
>    "The interrogation became less about me and more about politics and
>    e-gold," Bradley said. "They were trying to get me to blame e-gold for
>    fraud. Just to be blunt, these guys have no clue about how e-commerce
>    works, how e-gold works or what I was doing."
>
>    E-gold is a 5-year-old firm based on the Caribbean island of Nevis
>    that provides an electronic currency backed by physical metal stored
>    in vaults in London and Dubai. The company says it has 181,000 user
>    accounts and stores about 1.4 metric tons of gold on behalf of its
>    customers.
>
>    Bradley's Gold-Age company, which he ran with his wife out of their
>    home until the raid, was one of about a dozen e-gold currency exchange
>    services: He took dollars and credited grams of gold, silver, platinum
>    and palladium to a customer's account, less a modest fee.
>
>    [...]
>
>    Still unclear is why the raid took place. French indicated that it
>    could be more than a routine credit card investigation, saying "at
>    this point, it's being investigated as a credit card fraud."
>
>    One possibility is a broader investigation directed at some users of
>    e-gold, which is less anonymous than cash but more anonymous than
>    credit cards. Former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers has warned of
>    malcontents using the Net and encryption to dodge taxes, and it's
>    possible that the feds don't exactly approve of a system that's more
>    privacy-protective than the heavily regulated banking system.
>
>    Current federal regulations require banks and credit unions -- about
>    19,000 in all -- to inform federal law enforcement of all transactions
>    $5,000 and above that have no "apparent lawful purpose or are not the
>    sort in which the particular customer would normally be expected to
>    engage."
>
>    Because e-gold is not a bank that lends money -- it's more akin to a
>    warehouse that stores gold on behalf of its customers -- it's not
>    covered by those rules.
>
>    Mike Godwin said the raid evokes memories of the notorious Steve
>    Jackson Games raid by the Secret Service a decade ago, which led to
>    the formation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
>
>    [...]




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Mar 30 20:13:13 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:13:13 -0800
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
In-Reply-To: <v042101ebb6eae9a56878@[192.168.0.4]>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com> 
  <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com> 
  <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com> 
  <5.0.2.1.0.20010330203318.02126150@mail.well.com>
  <v042101ebb6eae9a56878@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <a0501040fb6eb08ff960d@[207.111.241.172]>


At 9:06 PM -0500 3/30/01, James M. Ray wrote:
>
>Ok, you can say that, but I said I really wanted you to speak to the
>president. I'm probably not the best source about e-gold compared
>to the guy who invented it, after all, and he's really most concerned
>about a terribly-misleading headline (which finally was changed as
>the lawyer began to send nastygrams)


What sort of "nastygrams" did your lawyers send?

Article writers are free, in a free society, to pick the headlines they wish.

If I received "nastygrams" for the _headlines_ I attached to articles 
I wrote, I'd tell the authors of the "nastygrams" to fuck off. If 
they took further action, I think killing them would be fully 
justfied.

What statist universe have you moved into, Jim?

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Mar 30 18:27:16 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:27:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330205314.0200d610@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103302010180.12264-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> No, you forwarded *my* message responding to the spam-solicitation to
> UUNET, and asked them to take action against *me*.

You're losing it Declan: when you have to start putting words into my
mouth, you at the point where you need to step back, take a deep breath,
and realize you have crossed over...  *NOWHERE* in the below complaint
will you see *ANY* proof of your assertion that I "asked them to take
action against *me* [McCullagh]".  You have  been reduced to whimperings
that even your supporters can see are utter fabrications.

> I have the complete headers. So what? I have the complete
MESSAGE.  Reproduced here, (my outgoing headers omitted as irrelevant,
since I openly ack sending this email):

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=  BEGIN MY EMAIL COMPLAINT TO BROADWING/UUNET  =-=--=-=-=-=

>From declan at well.com Fri Mar 30 20:09:38 2001
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service


Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.

-Declan


On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:48:17PM +0530, Ganesh Acharya wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> We are looking forward to conduct a Bulk e-mail (HTML) campaign targeting
> the SMEs and hence a bulk e-mail service provider. In this concern I would
> like to know a few details:
> 1) Do you mail HTML mails?
> 2) In the context of the campaign can you host our micro site as until the
> campaign gets over?
> 3) Do you provide targeted e-mail addresses targeting the SMEs?
> 
> I would appreciate if you can mail me the cost involved and any additional
> service you provide in the domain of targeted bulk e-mail campaigns, ASAP.
> Thanks.
> 
> Ganesh Acharya
> Marketing Analyst - Web
> Icode Inc
> Ph: (703) 934 4700 Ext - 294
> Fx: (703) 934 4708
> mail: ganesha at icode.com
> www.icode.com

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=  END OF MY EMAIL COMPLAINT TO BROADWING/UUNET  =-=-=-=-=-= 

> The reason I wrote about it is because it shows, as an online society, how 
> hypersensitive we've become to spam. It requires all three people

Here we go again: "three people".  Poor little Declan isn't responible for
*ANY* of his little betwetting mess, now *is he*???  

> in the 
> spam-complaint chain to overreact: You (accidentally, you say),

Again with making up what you would LIKE to hear.  Please quote where I
said *anything even remotely LIKE* "I overreacted".  I do not think I
overreacted at all.  I send a complaint about some idjit who was too
stupid to even obtain a spam host without putting his foot in his
mouth.  I don't consider this overreacting.  In fact, given the
unbelievable pathetic attempt he made, I think it was rather appropriate.

>  uunet 
> (intentionally),

I wouldn't know, as UU.net has not yet sent me anything on this
"issue" other than the standard "thanks for making a complaint, now get
lost" missive.

> and my provider (intentionally, probably).

Hrmmm..  So is broadwing your provider as well?  Since broadwing and UU
were the only ones I complained to, your statements here imply that.

> Different 
> actions by any of them would have derailed the spamcident.

More smoke and mirrors Declan: this isn't about "the spamincident" and you
know it.  It's a bout a spoiled little brat who got his panties all
knotted up because he thought someone had tried to complain about
him, and then abused his reputation for accuracy and fairness as a
journalist to try and "get even".   

> Frankly, I've 
> also been meaning to send out my econlib.org column for a while, and this 
> gave me an excuse to mention it.
> 
> Better ways of dealing with spam can avoid this in the future.

Really?  Don't you mean something more along the lines of "Beter ways of
dealing with others can avoid this in the future."???

> -Declan
 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From jray at free-market.net  Fri Mar 30 17:28:20 2001
From: jray at free-market.net (James M. Ray)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:28:20 -0500
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>
References: <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <v042101e6b6eae27bb801@[192.168.0.4]>


At 8:10 PM -0500 3/30/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Good question. I don't recall anymore; my article today linked to an 
>archived Wired story that went into this in more detail and I believe 
>linked to the appropriate regs. --Declan
>
>

First of all, please note that I really speak for myself and it's implied
in the article I speak for OmniPay too. I can't hide my outrage well
sometimes. :( Here's the message from the founder, who wasn't as
amused with the headline mistake as I was.
JMR


Subject: [e-gold-list] [Fwd: re: Secret Service Raids E-Gold]
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:leave-e-gold-list-147S at talk.e-gold.com>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:subscribe-e-gold-list at talk.e-gold.com>
List-Owner: <mailto:owner-e-gold-list at talk.e-gold.com>
X-Message-Id: <3AC5276F.FC3373BA at omnipay.net>
Sender: bounce-e-gold-list-147 at talk.e-gold.com

sigh


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: re: Secret Service Raids E-Gold
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:05:34 -0500
From: Douglas Jackson <djackson at omnipay.net>
To: newsfeedback at wired.com
CC: declan at wired.com

I am the founder and Chairman of e-gold Ltd.

Contrary to the luridly irresponsible and actionable headline on this
article, there has been no raid on e-gold Ltd., or on Gold & Silver
Reserve Inc. [dba  OmniPay http://www.omnipay.net ], the company that
originally developed  the e-gold system and currently serves as
Operator.

The more edifying reality is that e-gold® is the world’s first
electronic currency designed for borderless eCommerce, enabling the
worldwide use of gold as money. It merges the digital transaction
efficiencies of an electronic payment system with a universally
acceptable basis of value.

The advantages of e-gold include:
· Low transaction fees – The maximum payment processing fee is 50 cents
(US-equiv.). For a $1000 value payment, this is less than one twentieth
as much as credit cards.
· Immediate settlement – e-gold payments clear instantaneously, no
matter how large or small the payment, no matter how far apart the
spender and recipient.
· Non-repudiation – No chargebacks. Get paid, stay paid.
· Direct access with bi-directionality – Anyone can pay or be paid.
· Automation support – The e-gold Shopping Cart Interface is easily
implemented and provides immediate authenticated notification of
completed payment.
· Zero financial risk – e-gold is the world’s first remote payment
system backed 100% by physical gold in allocated storage.

e-gold is in fact succeeding where other electronic payment initiatives
are failing because it is designed specifically for worldwide eCommerce.
All others merely add additional layers of liability to legacy systems.

Since online launch November 1996, the e-gold system has been growing at
an accelerating pace. As of April 2000, 100,000  transactions had been
settled. The one millionth transaction was November 2000 and the second
million mark surpassed in March 2001.

It is regrettable that the first time many people will hear of e-gold(r)
will be this sloppy and damaging Wired headline.

Dr. Douglas Jackson
Founder of e-gold




From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Fri Mar 30 20:30:22 2001
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:30:22 -0800
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103301527450.11842-100000@greeves.mfn.org>
References: <20010330104439.A11833@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3AC4ECDD.1144.A601C1B@localhost>


On 30 Mar 2001, at 16:00, J.A. Terranson wrote:

> 	If you'll look closely at the addresses to which my complaint was
> mailed, you will note that it was directed to "broadwing.net" which is the
> luser's ISP, and uu.net, the upstream NSP for broadwing: unless you also
> have broadwing as your upstream provider, it should have been pretty
> obvious that my complaint - oops, I'm sorry, my *censorship* - was not
> directed at you.

Oops.  I sent a message earlier, before noticing this message, 
where some remarks did not hold Mr. Terranson in the highest 
regard.  This appears to be a misunderstanding between Declan 
and Mr. Terranson.  I apologize for any remarks using Mr. 
Terranson as an example.  I believe my comments are still valid 
with the references to Mr. Terranson removed.

My apologises to Mr. Terranson.

I mean what would you expect from a representative of FBN 
Technical Services!!



Virtually


Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond at fbntech.com
FBN - Harnessing The Dynamics of The Internet 
http://www.fbntech.com




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 17:35:27 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:35:27 -0500
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
In-Reply-To: <v042101e6b6eae27bb801@[192.168.0.4]>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>
 <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330203318.02126150@mail.well.com>


At 08:28 PM 3/30/01 -0500, James M. Ray wrote:
>First of all, please note that I really speak for myself and it's implied
>in the article I speak for OmniPay too. I can't hide my outrage well
>sometimes. :(

Um, no, it's explicitly stated in the article that you speak for OmniPay. 
Jim, you're a good guy, but when you give an on the record interview to a 
reporter and he asks you what title to use and you say (after some more 
colorful suggestions) "vice president," it's reasonable to conclude you're 
speaking for the company.

An officer of the company not speaking for it? It would be like Bill Gates 
not speaking for Microsoft.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 17:42:11 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:42:11 -0500
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103301905050.12264-100000@greeves.mfn.org>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330200032.02121840@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330203903.0200caa0@mail.well.com>


Fact: You forwarded MY message to UUNET and said kill-this-spammer or 
something to that effect.

The rest is hand-waving and after-the-fact justification.

-Declan

PS: I agree that perhaps I should have been a little less harsh in calling 
you "censorhappy."




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 17:56:26 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:56:26 -0500
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103301944560.12264-100000@greeves.mfn.org>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330203903.0200caa0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330205314.0200d610@mail.well.com>


No, you forwarded *my* message responding to the spam-solicitation to 
UUNET, and asked them to take action against *me*. I have the complete headers.

The reason I wrote about it is because it shows, as an online society, how 
hypersensitive we've become to spam. It requires all three people in the 
spam-complaint chain to overreact: You (accidentally, you say), uunet 
(intentionally), and my provider (intentionally, probably). Different 
actions by any of them would have derailed the spamcident. Frankly, I've 
also been meaning to send out my econlib.org column for a while, and this 
gave me an excuse to mention it.

Better ways of dealing with spam can avoid this in the future.

-Declan




From jray at omnipay.net  Fri Mar 30 18:06:02 2001
From: jray at omnipay.net (James M. Ray)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:06:02 -0500
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330203318.02126150@mail.well.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>
 <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010330203318.02126150@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <v042101ebb6eae9a56878@[192.168.0.4]>


At 8:35 PM -0500 3/30/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 08:28 PM 3/30/01 -0500, James M. Ray wrote:
>>First of all, please note that I really speak for myself and it's implied
>>in the article I speak for OmniPay too. I can't hide my outrage well
>>sometimes. :(
>
>Um, no, it's explicitly stated in the article that you speak for OmniPay. 
>Jim, you're a good guy, but when you give an on the record interview to a 
>reporter and he asks you what title to use and you say (after some more 
>colorful suggestions) "vice president," it's reasonable to conclude you're 
>speaking for the company.
>
>An officer of the company not speaking for it? It would be like Bill Gates 
>not speaking for Microsoft.

Ok, you can say that, but I said I really wanted you to speak to the
president. I'm probably not the best source about e-gold compared
to the guy who invented it, after all, and he's really most concerned
about a terribly-misleading headline (which finally was changed as
the lawyer began to send nastygrams) and not really what I say, 
especially about this case, since it's about another company, but I 
can't hide that I think that this is outrageous. 

You could have had our Bill Gates and got me (yech!) but the good
news is that this likely isn't the end of the Gold-Age story, so you'll
probably have another chance to talk to him if you keep covering it,
but the story there isn't even e-gold, it's credit card fraud committed
(IMO -- personal opinion) by someone besides Parker Bradley.
JMR




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Mar 30 19:10:57 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:10:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330213220.02011dd0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103302050580.12264-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> The correct and accurate chronology is here:
> http://www.politechbot.com/p-01870.html

The *chronology* was never in question Declan: why the straw?
 
> The message you sent to UUNET complaining about my alleged spam is below. 

Yes. The exact same message I just cited.

> In your most recent response, you wrote:
> "*NOWHERE* in the below complaint will you see *ANY* proof of your 
> assertion that I "asked them to take action against *me* [McCullagh]".
> 
> To the contrary, in the below spam complaint sent to UUNET 

Using YOUR OWN copy of this complaint, go LOOK at it Declan.  It was sent
to BROADWING.NET.  That's  B-R-O-A-D-W-I-N-G.N-E-T.  It was sent to
broadwing and *CC'd* to UUnet.  This message is *obviously* aimed at
broadwing's subscriber.  And again, using *your* copy of the message, show
us where I brand *YOU* as the downstream spammer.  Or even "The
Idjit" himself for that matter!  Since I thought the message I was
forwarding had only The Idjit's scrawl, there was no *reason* to actually
*point out* anyone in particular - you have CHOSEN to paint this the way
you WANT to paint this, for whatever reason(s) you have.  It must make for
good copy, huh?

> you brand me a 
> "downstream spammer"

While I have never "branded [you] a downstream spammer", I *am* now
branding you a liar and an irresponsible, unethical, and untrustworthy
writer with an attitude problem and an ego problem.


> and ask them to "please muzzle this idjit..."

And you know what?  After all this bullshit from you, I *still* don't
think you're in need of "muzzling".  Killfiling yes, but nothing more.
 
> I admit I may have been a little hasty in saying you were "censorhappy." 
> "Apparently censorhappy" would have been better. But it is incorrect to say 
> that I tried to attack you in my writeup. My full message is 5,202 
> characters; the paragraph dealing with you was 338 characters. (Granted, 
> you could snip headers, but the calculation would be similar.)

Playing with numbers now that playing with words has backfired?  

I am not going to play the game with you anymore: you have shown me, the
list, and everyone who ever runs across this thread in a web search what
*really* happened.  All the smoke, mirrors, and outright *bullshit* can't
change that Declan.

> It would have been trivial to write an article that *was* aimed at you. I 
> could have said:
> >If there's one thing J.A. Terranson hates more than spam, it's a spammer. 
> >With the regularity of a metronome and the cool calculation of a viper, 
> >the vigilante sysadmin regularly reports spammers to their upstream providers.
> >But Terranson's singleminded focus on spam has had one side effect: The 
> >gradual but inevitable erosion of any sense of humor about the topic.
> >When I posted a message to cypherpunks...
> 
> But I didn't write that.

No, however you *did* clearly imply it.  And again, that was NOT THE
POINT.  The POINT is that you specifically used your "column" as a vehicle
for revenge and not for Truth, and you did it consciously, and with
malice.  The POINT is that when you were called on it you weren't man
enough to admit your mistakes, instead, you made a lot of noise  and tried
a lot of things to distract the world from your folly.  The POINT is that
you have not just sullied *your own* reputation with this infantile
bullshit, the POINT is that you have, by extension, sullied every magazine
that elects to give you a public voice.

You have failed to serve Truth.  

THAT is the point.

> -Declan

Yours,

J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org
============================================================================

> 
> 
>  > > Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103291257260.10465-110000 at greeves.mfn.org>
>  > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:58:07 -0600 (CST)
>  > > From: "J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>
>  > > To: abuse at broadwing.net
>  > > cc: abuse at uu.net
>  > > Subject: Your downstream spammer...
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Please muzzle this idjit...
>  > >
>  > > --
>  > > Yours,
>  > > J.A. Terranson
>  > > sysadmin at mfn.org
>  > >
> [signature snipped for brevity, full message available on request]
>  > > Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com>
>  > > Received: from einstein.ssz.com (einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99])
>  > > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2TG9Ej09880
>  > > for <measl at mfn.org>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:09:14 -0600 (CST)
>  > > (envelope-from owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com)
>  > > Received: (from mdom at localhost)
>  > > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18391
>  > > for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:05 -0600
>  > > Received: from cluebot.com ([216.110.36.217])
>  > > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18387
>  > > for <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:02 -0600
>  > > Received: by cluebot.com (Postfix, from userid 502)
>  > > id D39A9104F1; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500 (EST)
>  > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500
>  > > From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>  > > To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>
>  > > Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
>  > > Subject: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
>  > > X-News-Site: http://www.wired.com/
>  > > X-URL: http://www.mccullagh.org/
>  > > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
>  > > Precedence: bulk
>  > > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>  > > X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
>  > > X-Unsubscription-Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr
>  > > X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com
>  > > X-Loop: ssz.com
>  > > X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
>  > > As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.
>  > >
>  > > -Declan
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Fri Mar 30 18:29:53 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:29:53 -0500
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
  (defense fund)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEMICIAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <HIEAKGFJFMEBPPNLCACMCEIACCAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


sorry...i was out the day they were teaching the abc's of the sins of
commission at crime school. does 'jailbreak' count as a j word?

pz

-----Original Message-----
From: Aimee Farr [mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 6:59 PM
To: Phillip H. Zakas; cypherpunks at lne.com
Subject: RE: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
(defense fund)


pz said:

> need a clarification: is it $5,000 for le and $10,000 or $25,000 for
> mandatory reporting to the irs? btw i do know banks will volunteer
> suspicious transactions, no matter how small, to the irs.  i
> believe this is
> how a fed. treasury worker was caught...he thought depositing smaller
> amounts (<$9,000) would go unnoticed.

CTR/SARs now automatically generated by "money laundering software" and the
friendly people at FINdCENts. pz, don't you bank at The Willful Blindness
Bank & Trust?

~Aimee

PS: Do you know your Ill-gotten-gains ABCs?

SPECIAL NOTICE: we are still accepting crimes for J, Q, X, Y and Z.

Aircraft piracy
Alien smuggling
Arms export
Bank fraud
Bank robbery and burglary of government property
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Conspiracy to kill, kidnap or maim a person or injure certain property in a
foreign country
Contraband cigarettes, trafficking in
Copyright infringement
Counterfeit goods, trafficking in
Counterfeiting and forgery
Customs crimes
Destruction by explosives or fire of government property or property
affecting interstate commerce
Destruction of aircraft
Embezzlement and theft
Emergency Economic Powers Act crimes
Espionage
Export Crimes
Extortion and threats
Extortionate credit transactions
Food stamp crimes
Foreign corrupt practices
Foreign law violations: extortion; fraud against a foreign bank; kidnapping;
murder or destruction of property by means of explosive or fire; narcotics;
robbery
Fraud and false statements
Gambling
Health care fraud
Influencing, impeding or retaliating against federal official by threatening
or injuring family member
J [UNREGISTERED! REGISTER NOW!]
Kidnapping
Labor-management financial transaction fraud, union embezzlement
Mail fraud
Mail, theft from
Malicious mischief
Murder on a federal facility
Murder of employees of the U.S.
Murder of foreign officials, official guests or foreign protected persons
Narcotics offenses
National resource conservation
Nationality and citizenship, unlawful procurement
Obscenity
Obstruction of justice
Ocean dumping
Passport and visa crimes
Peonage and slavery
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Q [UNREGISTERED! REGISTER NOW!]
Racketeering
Securities, fraud in the sale of
Sexual activity, transportation for illegal
Sexual exploitation of children
State felonies: arson, bribery, dealing in obscene matter, extortion,
gambling, kidnapping, murder, robbery, narcotics
Stolen property, trafficking in
Tariff Act
Terrorism
Trading With The Enemy
Unauthorized sound and video recordings, fixation and trafficking in
Violence against maritime navigation and fixed platforms
Violence at international airports
Water pollution
Wire fraud
X [UNREGISTERED! REGISTER NOW!]
Y [UNREGISTERED! REGISTER NOW!]
Z [UNREGISTERED! REGISTER NOW!]




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 18:46:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:46:35 -0500
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103302010180.12264-100000@greeves.mfn.org>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330205314.0200d610@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330213220.02011dd0@mail.well.com>


The correct and accurate chronology is here:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-01870.html

The message you sent to UUNET complaining about my alleged spam is below. 
In your most recent response, you wrote:
"*NOWHERE* in the below complaint will you see *ANY* proof of your 
assertion that I "asked them to take action against *me* [McCullagh]".

To the contrary, in the below spam complaint sent to UUNET you brand me a 
"downstream spammer" and ask them to "please muzzle this idjit..."

I admit I may have been a little hasty in saying you were "censorhappy." 
"Apparently censorhappy" would have been better. But it is incorrect to say 
that I tried to attack you in my writeup. My full message is 5,202 
characters; the paragraph dealing with you was 338 characters. (Granted, 
you could snip headers, but the calculation would be similar.)

It would have been trivial to write an article that *was* aimed at you. I 
could have said:
>If there's one thing J.A. Terranson hates more than spam, it's a spammer. 
>With the regularity of a metronome and the cool calculation of a viper, 
>the vigilante sysadmin regularly reports spammers to their upstream providers.
>But Terranson's singleminded focus on spam has had one side effect: The 
>gradual but inevitable erosion of any sense of humor about the topic.
>When I posted a message to cypherpunks...

But I didn't write that.

-Declan


 > > Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103291257260.10465-110000 at greeves.mfn.org>
 > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:58:07 -0600 (CST)
 > > From: "J.A. Terranson" <measl at mfn.org>
 > > To: abuse at broadwing.net
 > > cc: abuse at uu.net
 > > Subject: Your downstream spammer...
 > >
 > >
 > > Please muzzle this idjit...
 > >
 > > --
 > > Yours,
 > > J.A. Terranson
 > > sysadmin at mfn.org
 > >
[signature snipped for brevity, full message available on request]
 > > Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com>
 > > Received: from einstein.ssz.com (einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99])
 > > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2TG9Ej09880
 > > for <measl at mfn.org>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:09:14 -0600 (CST)
 > > (envelope-from owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at ssz.com)
 > > Received: (from mdom at localhost)
 > > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18391
 > > for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:05 -0600
 > > Received: from cluebot.com ([216.110.36.217])
 > > by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18387
 > > for <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:14:02 -0600
 > > Received: by cluebot.com (Postfix, from userid 502)
 > > id D39A9104F1; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500 (EST)
 > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:42:29 -0500
 > > From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
 > > To: Ganesh Acharya <GaneshA at icode.com>
 > > Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
 > > Subject: Re: CDR: Required- Direct e-mail(Bulk) service
 > > X-News-Site: http://www.wired.com/
 > > X-URL: http://www.mccullagh.org/
 > > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
 > > Precedence: bulk
 > > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
 > > X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks at ssz.com
 > > X-Unsubscription-Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr
 > > X-List-Admin: list at ssz.com
 > > X-Loop: ssz.com
 > > X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish
 > >
 > >
 > > Cypherpunks are well-known providers of Bulk-email HTML spam campaigns.
 > > As a "marketing analyst," you've clearly come to the right place.
 > >
 > > -Declan





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Mar 30 21:56:24 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:56:24 -0800
Subject: NIST Symmetric Key Block Cipher Algorithms workshop
In-Reply-To: <200103271634.LAA23116@www2.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010330215303.00a6f650@idiom.com>


At 11:34 AM 03/27/2001 -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote:
>Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> advertised:
>#
># 
>http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2001_register&docid=01-7497-filed
>
>Really, Declan.
>First, there was waiting for DoubleClick at your site.
>Now, you are releasing articles via an URL at another
>"DoubleClick" type site, akamaitech.net?


Akamai isn't a DoubleClick type of service -
it's a distributed caching system that allows web sites
to get better performance by caching static web content
on large ISPs and other sites likely to be nearer to readers
than the content owner's web site.

Akamai _could_ do detailed who's-reading-what tracking if they
wanted to  (I don't know if they do), but their basic objective
is to ship pages fast and bill the page owners for bandwidth.





From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 19:04:15 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:04:15 -0500
Subject: We've filed a motion to quash my subpoena from the DoJ
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010330122838.00a6bec0@idiom.com>
References: <20010330102728.B11644@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330220242.02021b00@mail.well.com>


Bill,
I apologize on behalf of my colleague. You are, of course, correct.

I didn't read the article before it was published (for reasons you can 
imagine), and in fact I didn't catch that error before I sent it out. I've 
forwarded your message internally.

To answer your question, no, editors don't do fact checking at daily or 
supra-daily news orgs. Generally only magazines have fact-checkers; 
everyone else relies on their reporters to do so.

-Declan


At 02:48 PM 3/30/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Declan - Do you know how to reach this clueless reporter's editor?
>Does Wired News _have_ editors that check this stuff out?
>
>"Assassination Politics" is, of course, not a site, just an essay,
>and while Bell may be an obsessive wacko, he does know the
>technology well enough to know that digital cash and
>anonymous remailers aren't sufficiently developed or deployed
>to actually implement AP.  The web page that the article points to,
>on John Young's Cryptome archive site, is not an assassination service,
>but merely a copy of Bell's essay.
>
>Given the current trial, this sort of irresponsible reporting is
>not only potentially libelous, it could endanger Bell's
>ability to get a fair trial if read by any potential jurors.
>
>         Bill Stewart
>
>
>
>>From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>>Subject: FC: We've filed a motion to quash my subpoena from the DoJ
>>To: politech at politechbot.com
>>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:30:53 -0500
>>X-URL: http://www.mccullagh.org/
>>X-URL: Politech is at http://www.politechbot.com/
>>User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i
>>
>>
>>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42735,00.html
>>
>>    When Reporting Becomes Testifying
>>    by Farhad Manjoo
>>    2:00 a.m. Mar. 30, 2001 PST
>>
>>    Declan McCullagh -- the Wired News reporter who on March 8 was
>>    subpoenaed by the Justice Department to testify in the case against
>>    cypherpunk Jim Bell -- filed a motion on Thursday with the U.S.
>>    District Court to quash the subpoena, claiming it would violate the
>>    First Amendment protections accorded to journalists.
>>
>>    Bell, who is famous for popularizing "Assassination Politics," a site
>>    that incorporated digital cash and encryption in a scheme to
>>    anonymously off political figures, has been charged with two counts of
>>    violating federal stalking laws. The trial is set to begin on Tuesday
>>    in Tacoma, Washington.
>>
>>    McCullagh has covered the Bell saga for Wired News, and the government
>>    says it only needs him to verify the statements attributed to Bell in
>>    two of McCullagh's stories, according to an e-mail sent to McCullagh
>>    from Assistant U.S. Attorney Robb London.
>>
>>    But "that would leave a lot of leeway for the defense to ask me
>>    questions -- and that's where it starts to get really messy really
>>    quickly," McCullagh said on Thursday from his home in Washington, D.C.
>>
>>    [...]
>>
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list
>>You may redistribute this message freely if it remains intact.
>>To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
>>This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>----- End forwarded message -----
>
>




From declan at well.com  Fri Mar 30 19:18:31 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:18:31 -0500
Subject: Censorhappy MFN.org syadmin files "spam" complaint
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103302050580.12264-100000@greeves.mfn.org>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330213220.02011dd0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330221443.0201a6e0@mail.well.com>


At 09:10 PM 3/30/01 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
>You have failed to serve Truth.
>
>THAT is the point.

I wrote what I honestly believed was the truth when I wrote it. I may send 
along a followup clarification.

That you responded with venom and invective instead of with a "whoops, 
sorry, honest mistake, didn't mean to say you were a spammer, let's put it 
behind us" does not make anyone take you more seriously.

Frothing and kvetching -- after the error was yours in the first place -- 
is not going to change anything.

-Declan




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Mar 30 19:33:39 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:33:39 -0500
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 7
Message-ID: <200103310345.WAA16000@smtp6.mindspring.com>


The TIF images are back on the WWA web site. With several
new ones, including Declan's filings yesterday, now up to 101
documents, a bigger rush. Several are the feds' responses to
Jim's motions. One reveals that Jim's telephone calls from
jail are being recorded, and states he was notified they would
be. One call was allegedly made to a member of the 
cypherpunk movement, information in the call is cited, the party 
is named and called a "friend" of Jim's as Leen called me.

Where this "friend" shit is coming from is a fair question. Whether
from Jim or the proponents of the fictitious "cypherpunk movement"
or both. Let me be clear: I hate Jim Bell, and believe him to be in
cahoots with the feds, and probably members of the media, to 
ensnare others into a conspiratorial cypherpunk movement to 
save his own ass, to garner publicity and to smear anybody
who supports him with his bullshit suffering from persecution, 
but I still support his right to a fair trial and find the chickenshit 
actions of the feds and Jim's non-attorney even more 
hate-worthy. 

Feds and Leen in the same peapod with Jim: all lust for the 
spotlight and like the WWF have no shame in faking stalking 
each other as if serious, preening in the mirror.







From galt at inconnu.isu.edu  Fri Mar 30 21:34:21 2001
From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:34:21 -0700 (MST)
Subject: SPAM
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010330072435.14587d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103302228050.5266-100000@inconnu.isu.edu>



It works this time!  Okay, I'll bite, what's down?  The last two times you
posted this link, it coincided with a servic dying.  First, it was mail,
then it was httpd.  So what is it this time?

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>
>You're on the 'wrong' list...
>
>http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr
>
>    ____________________________________________________________________
>
>       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.
>
>                                             Miguel de Cervantes
>
>       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Daniel Farnworth wrote:
>
>> Is this level of spam normal for this list? I have been on list for 18hrs
>> now, have received 8-10 ucm's and not one genuine mail???
>> --
>> The Penguin Factory
>> pingu at thepenguinfactory.co.uk
>>
>> ...computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as
>> kids,  we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening
>> to repetitive music...
>>
>> PGP Public Key available
>>
>

-- 
I can be immature if I want to, because I'm mature enough to make my own
decisions.

Who is John Galt?  galt at inconnu.isu.edu




From dave at technopagan.org  Fri Mar 30 14:43:19 2001
From: dave at technopagan.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:43:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Phillip Morris ID database?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10103301543590.15702-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103302230090.1901-100000@bureau42.technopaga
  n.org>


On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, dmolnar wrote:

> I walked into the local 7-11 today. There was a scanner there and a man
> next to it offering a free pack of cigarettes if he could scan your
> drivers' license or other form of photo ID *and* you are an adult smoker.
>
> When I asked what this was all about, he told me that Phillip Morris is
> trying to "update their ID database." Various promotional material was
> present as well, but I didn't read any of it.
>
> Does anyone know more about this? Does Phillip Morris have an ID database,
> and how often do they update it?

As I understand it, things like this are part of the Great Big Settlement
the tobacco corps made with a whole lot of Attorneys General (30-some-odd
states, IIRC). Every few months, PM sends me a big pack of coupons
(usually in the $5-$10 off a carton range) and asks for a fresh copy of my
ID. Brown & Williamson does the same thing.

Also, if you find a bar/nightclub that's hosting an event sponsored by one
of those same corps, they usually have a scanner or copier present as
well, with similar gimmicks (give us a Xerox of your ID, get free stuff).

Thus far, the only things that have come from it is an increase in *weird*
junk mail (Marlboro's sponsoring some kind of nationwide chili cook-off,
so they sent me a spoon) and cigarette coupons. The standard "having your
name in a database" caveats apply, though PM at least seems mostly
interested in verifying that you're over 21. (All the paper forms I've
seen expressly tell you to blackout your SSN/DL.)

...dave




From dave at technopagan.org  Fri Mar 30 14:43:19 2001
From: dave at technopagan.org (David E. Smith)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:43:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Phillip Morris ID database?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10103301543590.15702-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103302230090.1901-100000@bureau42.technopagan.org>


On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, dmolnar wrote:

> I walked into the local 7-11 today. There was a scanner there and a man
> next to it offering a free pack of cigarettes if he could scan your
> drivers' license or other form of photo ID *and* you are an adult smoker.
>
> When I asked what this was all about, he told me that Phillip Morris is
> trying to "update their ID database." Various promotional material was
> present as well, but I didn't read any of it.
>
> Does anyone know more about this? Does Phillip Morris have an ID database,
> and how often do they update it?

As I understand it, things like this are part of the Great Big Settlement
the tobacco corps made with a whole lot of Attorneys General (30-some-odd
states, IIRC). Every few months, PM sends me a big pack of coupons
(usually in the $5-$10 off a carton range) and asks for a fresh copy of my
ID. Brown & Williamson does the same thing.

Also, if you find a bar/nightclub that's hosting an event sponsored by one
of those same corps, they usually have a scanner or copier present as
well, with similar gimmicks (give us a Xerox of your ID, get free stuff).

Thus far, the only things that have come from it is an increase in *weird*
junk mail (Marlboro's sponsoring some kind of nationwide chili cook-off,
so they sent me a spoon) and cigarette coupons. The standard "having your
name in a database" caveats apply, though PM at least seems mostly
interested in verifying that you're over 21. (All the paper forms I've
seen expressly tell you to blackout your SSN/DL.)

...dave




From levitte at openssl.org  Fri Mar 30 12:45:06 2001
From: levitte at openssl.org (Richard Levitte)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:45:06 +0200
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] OpenSSL 0.9.6a Beta 3 released
Message-ID: <20010330224505.A28644@openssl.org>

The third beta release of OpenSSL 0.9.6a is now available from the
OpenSSL FTP site <URL: ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/>.

OpenSSL 0.9.6a is a bug-fix release of version 0.9.6, and currently
contains 52 documented changes.  Among others, this release should build
on all Windows platforms, which 0.9.6 failed to do.  Just as for version
0.9.6, this one comes in two variants, one containing the now well-known
ENGINE code and one that doesn't.  The tar files are:

	openssl-0.9.6a-beta3.tar.gz
	openssl-engine-0.9.6a-beta3.tar.gz

The news section for 0.9.6a gives the following:

      o Security fix: change behavior of OpenSSL to avoid using
        environment variables when running as root.
      o Security fix: check the result of RSA-CRT to reduce the
        possibility of deducing the private key from an incorrectly
        calculated signature.
      o Security fix: prevent Bleichenbacher's DSA attack.
      o Security fix: Zero the premaster secret after deriving the
        master secret in DH ciphersuites.
      o Reimplement SSL_peek(), which had various problems.
      o Compatibility fix: the function des_encrypt() renamed to
        des_encrypt1() to avoid clashes with some Unixen libc.
      o Bug fixes for Win32, HP/UX and Irix.
      o Bug fixes in BIGNUM, SSL, PKCS#7, PKCS#12, X.509, CONF and
        memory checking routines.
      o Bug fixes for RSA operations in threaded enviroments.
      o Bug fixes in misc. openssl applications.
      o Remove a few potential memory leaks.
      o Add tighter checks of BIGNUM routines.
      o Shared library support has been reworked for generality.
      o More documentation.
      o New function BN_rand_range().
      o Add "-rand" option to openssl s_client and s_server.

The next (hopefully real) release is scheduled for Tuesday 2001-04-03.  To make
sure that it will work correctly, please test this version (especially on less
common platforms), and report any problems to <openssl-bugs at openssl.org>.

--
Richard Levitte         levitte at openssl.org
OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/
Software Engineer, Celo Communications: http://www.celocom.com/




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Fri Mar 30 19:55:26 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:55:26 -0500
Subject: Declan served with writ through slashdot!
In-Reply-To: <v042101e6b6eae27bb801@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <000901c0b996$6c457c60$4100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


I kid you not, I leave it for Dr Mike to prognosticate on the use of
slashdot for sending missives of a legalistic and intimidatory nature:


Message from e-gold's US Counsel to Wired editors (Score:1)
by e-gold (_NOSPAM_jray at omnipay.net) on Friday March 30, @06:30PM EDT (#294)
(User #36755 Info) http://www.e-gold.com/e-gold.asp?cid=9

I need you to contact me immediately. Wired will face an immediate law
suit by e-gold unless the headline of your article is changed
immediately, this does not go out in print and you print a retraction to

this extremely damaging headline.

Barry K. Downey
U.S. Counsel to e-gold Ltd.

Try e-gold - (contact me).
[ Reply to This | Parent ]






From jray at free-market.net  Fri Mar 30 20:10:15 2001
From: jray at free-market.net (James M. Ray)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 23:10:15 -0500
Subject: Declan served with writ through slashdot!
In-Reply-To: <000901c0b996$6c457c60$4100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <000901c0b996$6c457c60$4100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <v042101fab6eb07366396@[192.168.0.4]>


Philll, I wasn't 'serving' anything, the lawyer asked me to post the damn
message -- it's hardly a writ, it's a nastygram asking them to change a
headline. I know the guy they busted, and the SS busted HIM, not us. I
wish you'd just get back to your incessant flamewar with Matt Gaylor to
convince him that his guns are all evil, or whatever you're trying to do.

None of this has much to do with censorship, and I'm no longer on the
cypherpunks list, for better or worse. Hi again to all who know me there.
JMR




From jray at free-market.net  Fri Mar 30 20:38:05 2001
From: jray at free-market.net (James M. Ray)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 23:38:05 -0500
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
In-Reply-To: <a0501040fb6eb08ff960d@[207.111.241.172]>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com> 
  <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com> 
  <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com> 
  <5.0.2.1.0.20010330203318.02126150@mail.well.com>
  <v042101ebb6eae9a56878@[192.168.0.4]>
  <a0501040fb6eb08ff960d@[207.111.241.172]>
Message-ID: <v042101fdb6eb0ad23d50@[192.168.0.4]>


At 8:13 PM -0800 3/30/01, Tim May wrote:
...
>What sort of "nastygrams" did your lawyers send?
>
>Article writers are free, in a free society, to pick the headlines they wish.
>
>If I received "nastygrams" for the _headlines_ I attached to articles 
>I wrote, I'd tell the authors of the "nastygrams" to fuck off. If 
>they took further action, I think killing them would be fully 
>justfied.
>
>What statist universe have you moved into, Jim?

Ah...

(You're not back in tune with why you don't miss cpunks all
*that* much without a good, quick, Tim-May: "killing them 
would be fully justfied.")  I'm fully aware of cypherpunks' views
on libel law, for me they're not the issue in the Gold Age case
IMO. 

The lawyer thought the false headline libelous*, and wanted the
Wired site to (do what they've since done and) fix it. Personally,
I think the case against Parker's the outrage here, so if you're
all kind enough to pardon me letting lawyers be lawyers, I'll be
leaving now. 
JMR

* Declan didn't (and apparently doesn't ever get to) write the 
headline for stories. I thought the headline was a weird joke
at first, frankly, but then I remembered an experience with a 
letter I once wrote for the Miami Herald, where the headline
and caption completely contradicted everything I said.




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Fri Mar 30 20:52:06 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 23:52:06 -0500
Subject: Declan served with writ through slashdot!
In-Reply-To: <v042101fab6eb07366396@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <000a01c0b99e$56d45060$4100a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


Oh didn'ty you know that in the US money is speech?

Plus threatening a well known and highly respected Internet journalist with
a libel lawsuit if they don't change their story could be considered a
censorship issue.

	Phill

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> [mailto:owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu]On Behalf Of
> James M. Ray
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 11:10 PM
> To: Phillip Hallam-Baker
> Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: Declan served with writ through slashdot!
>
>
> Philll, I wasn't 'serving' anything, the lawyer asked me to
> post the damn
> message -- it's hardly a writ, it's a nastygram asking them
> to change a
> headline. I know the guy they busted, and the SS busted HIM, not us. I
> wish you'd just get back to your incessant flamewar with Matt
> Gaylor to
> convince him that his guns are all evil, or whatever you're
> trying to do.
>
> None of this has much to do with censorship, and I'm no longer on the
> cypherpunks list, for better or worse. Hi again to all who
> know me there.
> JMR
>




From reports at ipoexpressemail.com  Sat Mar 31 01:34:52 2001
From: reports at ipoexpressemail.com (EDGAR Online)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 01:34:52 -0800
Subject: IPO Express: Daily News 03/30/01
Message-ID: <200103310934.BAA25891@mailhost.ostman.com>


******************************************************************************
        This IPO Express report is provided by EDGAR Online, sent to you as
a subscriber to EDGAR Online Premium. If you wish to discontinue receiving
reports or wish to change your email options, go to:

         http://www.edgar-online.com/auth/updateinfo.asp
******************************************************************************

IPO NEWS

* Convergent Networks Inc  was withdrawn. [NASDAQ:CVNI]
* Convergent Networks Inc is being withdrawn due to market conditions. [NASDAQ:CVNI]
* ILX Lightwave  was withdrawn. [NASDAQ:ILXL]
* ILX Lightwave is being withdrawn due to market conditions. [NASDAQ:ILXL]

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/iponews.asp for more news.

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Company                                              Priced Days   Expires
IMAGEWARE SYSTEMS INC (IWU, IW, IWWS)               3/31/00  365  3/31/01
E-CENTIVES INC (ECEN)                               10/2/00  180  3/31/01
INFORMAX INC (INMX)                                 10/2/00  180  3/31/01
OPLINK COMMUNICATIONS INC (OPLK)                    10/3/00  180  4/1/01*
KOSAN BIOSCIENCES INC (KOSN)                        10/4/00  180   4/2/01
ADVANCED SWITCHING COMMUNICATIONS INC (ASCX)        10/4/00  180   4/2/01
TNPC INC  (NPW)                                     10/4/00  180   4/2/01
COACH INC (COH)                                     10/4/00  180   4/2/01
ASIA GLOBAL CROSSING (AGCX)                         10/6/00  180   4/4/01
THERMOELASTIC TECHNOLOGIES INC  (TMRO)              10/9/00  180   4/7/01
WATSON WYATT & COMPANY HOLDINGS (WW)               10/10/00  180   4/8/01
POZEN INC (POZN)                                   10/10/00  180   4/8/01
W-H ENERGY SERVICES INC  (WHES)                    10/10/00  180   4/8/01
INTROGEN THERAPEUTICS INC (INGN)                   10/11/00  180   4/9/01
SYNPLICITY INC (SYNP)                              10/12/00  180  4/10/01
SINOPEC  (SNP)                                     10/12/00  180  4/10/01
STRATUS SERVICES GROUP INC (SERV)                   4/13/00  365  4/13/01

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STELMAR SHIPPING (SJH)                               3/6/01  3/31/01
SEATTLE GENETICS INC (SGEN)                          3/7/01  4/1/01*
ENCORE ACQUISITION CO (EAC)                          3/9/01   4/3/01
LOUDCLOUD INC (LDCL)                                 3/9/01   4/3/01
SUREBEAM CORP (SURE)                                3/16/01  4/10/01

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/quiet.asp for more expirations.

Data and information is provided for informational purposes only, and is
not intended for trading purposes.  Neither EDGAR Online nor any of its content
providers shall be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for
any actions taken in reliance thereon.  By accessing the IPO Express site,
the user agrees not to redistribute the information found therein.

-----ADVERTISEMENT----------------------
Purchase Business/Credit Reports from Dun & Bradstreet on over 11 million
U.S. businesses. Click on the "Resources" link when you look up SEC filings
for any public company, or search by company name and state at
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----------------------------------------




From freematt at coil.com  Sat Mar 31 02:17:54 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 05:17:54 -0500
Subject: Chairman of e-gold On Secret Service Raids e-gold
Message-ID: <v04220800b6eb5e74f1fe@[198.4.94.231]>



From team at adultfriendfinder.com  Sat Mar 31 05:31:55 2001
From: team at adultfriendfinder.com (team at adultfriendfinder.com)
Date: 31 Mar 2001 05:31:55 -0800
Subject: Spring into Hot Action at AdultFriendFinder.com!
Message-ID: <20010331133155.32324.qmail@e43.friendfinder.com>

oddodoodo|cypherpunks at algebra.com|1|100
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From Tom at ak47.algebra.com  Sat Mar 31 06:43:05 2001
From: Tom at ak47.algebra.com (Tom at ak47.algebra.com)
Date: 31 Mar 2001 06:43:05 -0800
Subject: enjoy this
Message-ID: <200103310736640.SM00217@mail.sisna.com>


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(This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version)
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From peter.fairbrother at ntlworld.com  Fri Mar 30 21:43:36 2001
From: peter.fairbrother at ntlworld.com (Peter Fairbrother)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 06:43:36 +0100
Subject: Name wanted
Message-ID: <B6EB2D18.31B7%peter.fairbrother@ntlworld.com>


I have received, in chronological order and without censorship (moderation),
the following replies to this email:
"Name Wanted: Torturing passwords out of people with threats of (?repeated)
beatings is usually called rubberhose cryptanalysis.
What should torturing passphrases out of people with threats of (?repeated)
imprisonment be called? Rubberlaw? Legalhose? ":

democracy
Psycho torture
Threat torture
Scare mugging
Psyche raping
Psyche terrorism
Psyche terrorizing
Police terrorism
Terror tactics
Threat tactics
Terror-hosing
contempt cryptanalysis
Jailhouse cryptanalysis
due process 
extremely wrong 
government policy 
soapbending cryptoanalysis
a "known key" attack
RIPoff
Solitary Cryptanalysis (rather than sharing a cell with "BIG Marv[he's deaf
but very BIG]" or "Fingers McMadbastard")  *
Pants, and have Pantyhose cryptanalysis
the Royal Screw
Her Majesty's Thumbscrews
HM's nipple electrodes
Mr. Blair's Wild Ride
I'd call them both "coercion cryptanalysis".
VIRTUAL PANCAKEVILLE
Beyond 1984 
Captive Captivity
CRYPTOCRACY 
Contempt of Court cryptanalysis
Porridge Cryptanalysis (after a British slang word for prison, and a BBC
comedy series)
Scrubs Cryptanalysis
Wormwood Cryptanalysis (after Wormwood Scrubs, a famous London prison).
San Quentin cryptanalysis
Alcatraz cryptanalysis (the famous jail/island in San Francisco)
Changi cryptanalysis (the jail in Singapore)
Cryptanalysis by writ
Ball and chain cryptanalysis
handcuff cryptanalysis
Horsehair, after the ludicrous headgear.

I guess I'll use:

Courthouse Cryptanalysis

which wasn't on the list, and call rubberhose- and courthouse- subsets of
coercive- cryptanalysis,

unless you think YOU know BETTER, EH?


-- Peter 

*I am occasionally known as Fingers McMadbastard. I think this was a
coincidence?




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Mar 31 04:23:25 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 07:23:25 -0500
Subject: Robert Leen, and getting Jim Bell a fair trial
In-Reply-To: <200103310803.DAA10960@oobleck.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <200103311235.HAA03617@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>


Seth,

I've publicly asked that no private e-mail be sent to me about 
the Bell case. Do it in public or not at all. You could be tarring
me as others have done, for whatever noble reason. Offense
intended. You are way behind the curve on this matter, and
privately whispering advice is cowardly, not unlike noble 
journalists and attorneys have done to me. Show your face,
no stalking, thanks.

John

Seth Finklestein wrote:

>[you wrote]
>> No call back from Leen on my inquiry about being a witness
>> for Bell. Fuck him, bedwetting with the feds.
>[Elsewhere ...]
>> Feds and Leen in the same peapod with Jim: all lust for the
>> spotlight and like the WWF have no shame in faking stalking
>> each other as if serious, preening in the mirror.
>
>        Check out Leen's record. He DOES NOT look to be the type who
>gets in bed with the Feds. I think at the very least you should get
>his side of the story.
>
>http://www.mndaily.com/daily/gopher-archives/1990/10/29/Man_jailed_for_sayi
ng_he_would_punch_Bush.txt
>
>http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/local/shot283.shtml
>
>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/971229/29mili.htm
>
>http://firms.findlaw.com/rleen/
>http://firms.findlaw.com/rleen/affiliates.htm
>http://firms.findlaw.com/rleen/memos.htm
>
>	If you want to do something to help Jim Bell in getting a good
>defense, here is my suggestion, take it for what it's worth to you:
>
>	Take some more initiative to get in touch with Robert Leen. His
>contact info, including a mail form, is available on Martindale-Hubble, at
>
>http://lawyers.martindale.com/Executable/listing.php3?lid=2076060org=1
>
>	Explain the whole "cypherpunks", err, state of mind. Give the
>guy a chance. Look at it this way - if he is in collaboration with the
>prosecution, your discussion with him can hardly make things much
>worse. However, if he is not, if he is an honest defense attorney
>doing the best he can in a bad situation, then you are in a good
>position to aid him. The risk is low, the potential benefit is large.
>
>__
>Seth Finkelstein  Consulting Programmer  sethf at mit.edu  http://sethf.com
> 




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Mar 31 09:04:39 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:04:39 -0800
Subject: "Educating" the Court about Cypherpunks Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <200103311235.HAA03617@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200103311235.HAA03617@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <a05010412b6ebb7bfa4ca@[207.111.241.172]>


>Seth Finklestein wrote:
>
>...
>  >	If you want to do something to help Jim Bell in getting a good
>  >defense, here is my suggestion, take it for what it's worth to you:
>>
>...
>  >	Explain the whole "cypherpunks", err, state of mind. Give the
>>guy a chance. Look at it this way - if he is in collaboration with the
>>prosecution, your discussion with him can hardly make things much
>>worse. However, if he is not, if he is an honest defense attorney
>>doing the best he can in a bad situation, then you are in a good
>  >position to aid him. The risk is low, the potential benefit is large.

Trying to "explain" the Cypherpunk ideology and outlook (such as it 
is), is not likely to be helpful. Not that John's or Declan's or 
anyone else's job is to help Bell in his defense. Bell chose his path.

Frankly, the more the court, or any of its officers, knows about the 
CP ideology, the less sympathetic and useful they will be.

Anyone think this would be useful?:

"Your Honor, I was given a lengthy briefing by members of the list, 
given copies of their posts and their manifestos. I now understand 
them. I now understand why Jim Bell is advocating the 
assassination-by-lottery of judges and prosecutors. Fuck the State, 
Man!"

Useful? Didn't think so.

Look, folks, Bell does not represent my views--and vice versa. Bell 
arrived late on the scene to the CP list, circa 1995 if I am 
recalling the dates correctly, having already written about his AP 
scheme. He lacked crypto and digital cash, and heard from someone 
else that our list had discussions of it. He learned enough about 
digital cash to weave it into his AP scheme. Given that digital cash, 
especially the "true" bidirectionally untraceable kind, does not yet 
exist, it is technologically impossible at this time to set up a 
robust AP system. There are other issues making AP not realistic in 
the near future.

(By the way, there had been discussions, though rarely advocacy, of 
untraceable contract killings in the early days of the list. I, for 
one,  talked about these things as early as 1988, in my Crypto 
Anarchist Manifesto. Not advocating them, just pointing out the 
technological and political forces and trends. Murder pools have also 
been discussed in fiction, as early as Jack London, IIRC.)

The notion that Bell's defense will be "helped" if only the Court or 
its various prosecuting and defending attorneys are given an 
education in The Cypherpunk Way is just plain ludicrous.

Also, I don't recall Bell being charged on anything relating to his 
AP ideas, even if his writings helped make a prosecution more likely. 
The "interstate stalking" stuff doesn't seem to have _any_ contact 
with the Cypherpunks list. So why would educating the Court and its 
officers in Cypherpunks issues help?

Should Bell ever be charged based on the AP ideas, then maybe expert 
witnesses could be called to point out that AP was technologically 
impossible at the time Bell was alleged--for instance--to have set up 
a real AP system.

But this is not that case.

Personally, I refuse to be drawn into either defending or repudiating 
Bell. Bell has one particular slant on things. I didn't find him one 
of the more interesting debating partners when he was on the list, so 
I had little contact with him. Probably this is what has saved me 
from being called as a witness for either side.

A journalist called me about the Bell case and I declined to say much 
about Bell. What little I _did_ say about Bell he agreed would be off 
the record and would not be taped or written about in notes. Nothing 
juicy (for those prosecutors now reading this!), just my impressions 
and recollections.

I probably should have said nothing to this journalist. If Declan is 
forced to testify,  beyond a very basic acknowledgement that he was 
the author of the articles in question, I sure plan to refuse to ever 
speak to any journalist again about anything which someone might 
twist in front of a jury. "Hey, Declan, nice weather we're having, 
eh?" I'll continue to be Declan's friend, presumably, but I just 
won't talk to him about anything that may get extracted from him in 
this or in any future star chamber prosecutions.

  (Unless I "need" to, a la Toto and Bell, to get my story out, to 
spin things in my direction---a sad state of affairs when largely 
neutral parties are unwilling to speak to journalists and only those 
with axes to grind want their stories told.)

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Mar 31 07:15:47 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:15:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: SPAM
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103302228050.5266-100000@inconnu.isu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010331090836.14587F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi John,

'mail', 'httpd'? I don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about.
einstein has a 54d19h32m uptime as I write this. None of my services have
been down or non-functional in that time.

You need to have your DNS checked, it's not picking IP's correctly.
Specifically when it is given a name->IP lookup that has two, yes I say
two, IP's provided. einstein is supposed to have two NIC's installed. I
removed one because I isolated my internal network completely because of a
variety of exploits. As a result that IP isn't available and it times out,
your services (be they httpd, mail, or whatever) should then try the
alternate IP. Apparently they're not. It's worth noting that timeout may
be as great as the default 2m high level TCP timeouts.

You can try flushing your DNS cache's and try it again or you could set a
direct IP-hostname link in your /etc/hostname file.

204.96.2.99	einstein.ssz.com	einstein


On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, John Galt wrote:
 
> It works this time!  Okay, I'll bite, what's down?  The last two times you
> posted this link, it coincided with a servic dying.  First, it was mail,
> then it was httpd.  So what is it this time?
> 
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >
> >You're on the 'wrong' list...
> >
> >http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From Tonya at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 31 09:30:12 2001
From: Tonya at einstein.ssz.com (Tonya at einstein.ssz.com)
Date: 31 Mar 2001 09:30:12 -0800
Subject: FWD: Nasty NAsty
Message-ID: <200103311023890.SM00217@mail.sisna.com>


--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Want to talk with 100% REAL horny girls? 

This is something VERY new in phone dating. 
The men & women on the line are NOT paid. 
They call to meet with people like YOU!

50 cents - $1.99 per minute (depending on method of payment)

=====================>1-888-335-HOTT (toll-free)
=====================>1-888-302-ORGY (toll-free) 
You can be billed discreetly directly to your phone bill.

----------------------------------------------------------------

For Dominant & Submissive Girls call: 1-888-700-WHIP (toll free)

----------------------------------------------------------------

For gay talk call:1-888-800-GUYS (toll-free)

18 and over only please!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
(This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Mar 31 07:32:11 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:32:11 -0600
Subject: Marbury v. Madison: Background and Explanation
Message-ID: <3AC5F87B.4F940C20@ssz.com>


http://www.jmu.edu/madison/marbury/background.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 31 07:40:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:40:54 -0600
Subject: The Register - Virtual Anonymous Web Surfing Expands to Europe
Message-ID: <3AC5FA86.B87850B1@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/18017.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Mar 31 07:42:13 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:42:13 -0600
Subject: kuro5hin.org || Defending the Right to Pleasure
Message-ID: <3AC5FAD5.CA0DD098@ssz.com>


http://www.Kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/3/30/4410/84525
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From rentahome at spete75.fsnet.co.uk  Sat Mar 31 10:10:50 2001
From: rentahome at spete75.fsnet.co.uk (Rent-a-home in europe)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:10:50
Subject: Find a holiday home to rent in Europe
Message-ID: <200103310910.BAA09591@cyberpass.net>


Please pass to anyone who is thinking about booking a holiday in Europe.

I would like to introduce my new web site to you. It is a site dedicated to holidays in Europe. Here you will find details of houses flats or villas for rent this summer.

Please visit http://www.rentahome.nip.net/ for more information.

Why look through brochures when you can browse completely freely?

On my site you will see holiday homes in:

France, Spain, Greece, Turkey and many more.


Bye.
http://www.rentahome.nip.net/




From Tom at toad.com  Sat Mar 31 10:18:32 2001
From: Tom at toad.com (Tom at toad.com)
Date: 31 Mar 2001 10:18:32 -0800
Subject: enjoy this
Message-ID: <200103311111515.SM00217@mail.sisna.com>


--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Want to talk with 100% REAL horny girls? 

This is something VERY new in phone dating. 
The men & women on the line are NOT paid. 
They call to meet with people like YOU!

50 cents - $1.99 per minute (depending on method of payment)

=====================>1-888-335-HOTT (toll-free)
=====================>1-888-302-ORGY (toll-free) 
You can be billed discreetly directly to your phone bill.

----------------------------------------------------------------

For Dominant & Submissive Girls call: 1-888-700-WHIP (toll free)

----------------------------------------------------------------

For gay talk call:1-888-800-GUYS (toll-free)

18 and over only please!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Sat Mar 31 08:32:20 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 11:32:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Phillip Morris ID database?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0103302230090.1901-100000@bureau42.technopagan.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10103311124580.15702-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, David E. Smith wrote:

> so they sent me a spoon) and cigarette coupons. The standard "having your
> name in a database" caveats apply, though PM at least seems mostly
> interested in verifying that you're over 21. (All the paper forms I've
> seen expressly tell you to blackout your SSN/DL.)

That's interesting - I asked the guy at the scanner if they wanted the IDs
to verify ages, and he denied it - said that PM was just "updating its
database." Probably he didn't know what the database is used for. In any
case, if they're refusing IDs from minors, then this database seems less
useful for establishing how many minors smoke. I have to wonder just what
the rationale in the settlement for such a database is.

Thanks for the information - for a little bit I wasn't sure if this was
for real or not. 

-David




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Sat Mar 31 12:15:33 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 12:15:33 -0800
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
In-Reply-To: <a0501040fb6eb08ff960d@[207.111.241.172]>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>  
  <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com>  
  <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>  
  <5.0.2.1.0.20010330203318.02126150@mail.well.com> 
  <v042101ebb6eae9a56878@[192.168.0.4]>
  <a0501040fb6eb08ff960d@[207.111.241.172]>
Message-ID: <p04320400b6ebe9679584@[65.5.86.210]>


At 20:13 -0800  on  3/30/01, Tim May wrote:
>What sort of "nastygrams" did your lawyers send?
>
>Article writers are free, in a free society, to pick the headlines they wish.

Tsk, tsk Tim.  In a free society people are also free to send those 
writers letters warning them of inaccuracies in there article 
(including the headlines).  AND the newsperson is well advised to 
correct such in things when they are in fact they are untrue. 
Failure to do so can and should result in a libel suit.  Such is the 
way things should work in a free society...
-- 
____________________________________________________________________
volatile:  Because every program deserves SOME interrupt code...
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
<mailto:kelliott at mac.com>                             ICQ#23758827
____________________________________________________________________




From giordano at capital.net  Sat Mar 31 09:54:47 2001
From: giordano at capital.net (Pete Giordano)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 12:54:47 -0500
Subject: latin lolitas.com
Message-ID: <000701c0ba0b$af9d44a0$f60217d1@pppuser.capital.net>


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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 31 13:22:12 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 13:22:12 -0800
Subject: update.532 [Black Hole Computing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010331134043.14587Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com
 >
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010331131705.00a7f890@idiom.com>


That was very interesting.  Kind of reminds me of
Cypherpunks Semi-Arch-Nemesis David Brin's "Earth",
where people messing around with small black hole creation
cause the risk of Bad Things happening.
In practice, we're less likely to see black hole computers
developed than Nanotech Grey Goo computers,


At 01:41 PM 03/31/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>PROGRAMMABLE BLACK HOLE COMPUTERS.  One usually
>thinks of a black hole as an omnivorous object swallowing energy
>and spitting some of it back in the form of Hawking evaporation
>radiation, consisting of particles created in pairs out of the vacuum
>near the edge of the black hole.  In principle, a tiny black hole can
>be formed in a way that encodes instructions for performing
>calculations.  Correspondingly, the answers could be read out from
>the escaping Hawking radiation.  Why use a black hole at all?
>....
>of detecting gravity waves with LIGO and other interferometric


Does "LIGO" stand for "Light In, Garbage Out"?  :-)







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Mar 31 11:41:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 13:41:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: update.532 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010331134043.14587Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:04:36 -0500 (EST)
From: AIP listserver <physnews at aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.532

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 532  March 28, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein,
and James Riordon

PROGRAMMABLE BLACK HOLE COMPUTERS.  One usually
thinks of a black hole as an omnivorous object swallowing energy
and spitting some of it back in the form of Hawking evaporation
radiation, consisting of particles created in pairs out of the vacuum
near the edge of the black hole.  In principle, a tiny black hole can
be formed in a way that encodes instructions for performing
calculations.  Correspondingly, the answers could be read out from
the escaping Hawking radiation.  Why use a black hole at all? 
Because of the presumed  tremendous density of information and
potential processing speed implicit in the extreme black hole
environment.  Seth Lloyd of MIT has previously addressed himself
to calculating the conceivable limits on the computing power of
such a black hole computer (Nature, 31 August 2000) and arrives
at a maximum processing speed of about 10^51 operations/sec for
a 1-kg black hole.  Now Jack Ng of the University of North
Carolina yjng at physics.unc.edu, 919-962-7208) extends this study
by asking whether the very foaminess of spacetime, thought to
arise at the level of 10^-35 m, provides an alternative way to limit
theoretical computation.  Ng not only finds that it does but that the
foaminess of spacetime leads to an uncertainty in timekeeping (the
more accurate the clock, the shorter its
lifetime) which in turn leads to a bound on information processing
(speed and memory simultaneously) analogous to the Heisenberg
bound on simultaneous measurement of momentum and position. 
These limits are so generous that they normally pose little problem
for ordinary physical measurements, but in the case of black hole
computer the limits would apply immediately.  Ng adds, apropos
of detecting gravity waves with LIGO and other interferometric
devices, that in addition to accounting for various forms of noise,
such as seismic disturbances or thermal noise in the detectors, the
faint gurgle of spacetime foam will eventually have to be  included
as an additional and unavoidable source of noise in the
measurement of very short displacements (the movement of
mirrors owing to the flexings of spacetime brought about by
passing gravity waves).    If Ng is right, the noise sensitivity
achievable by the prospective advanced phase of LIGO will only
need a further hundredfold enhancement in order to detect the
quantum foam, which is to say the very fabric of spacetime.   Thus
the Planck scale, so far only a hypothetical extreme regime, might
eventually become a realm that can be approached and measured.
(Physical Review Letters, 2 April 2001.)

A BOSE EINSTEIN CONDENSATE (BEC) IN HELIUM has
[SSZ: text deleted]

FUSION AVALANCHES.  Providing more than child's play,
[SSZ: text deleted]

CORRECTION:  Researchers at IBM have not yet made an
integrated circuit of carbon nanotubes (Update 531).  Rather,
Phaedon Avouris and Philip Collins of IBM have announced a
scheme for the fabrication of large arrays of nanotubes.  They also
put together one p-type nanotube transistor and one n-type
transistor to form a working logic NOT gate.


    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From alan at clueserver.org  Sat Mar 31 14:03:07 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:03:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Phillip Morris ID database?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10103311124580.15702-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103311401550.990-100000@clueserver.org>


On Sat, 31 Mar 2001, dmolnar wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, David E. Smith wrote:
> 
> > so they sent me a spoon) and cigarette coupons. The standard "having your
> > name in a database" caveats apply, though PM at least seems mostly
> > interested in verifying that you're over 21. (All the paper forms I've
> > seen expressly tell you to blackout your SSN/DL.)
> 
> That's interesting - I asked the guy at the scanner if they wanted the IDs
> to verify ages, and he denied it - said that PM was just "updating its
> database." Probably he didn't know what the database is used for. In any
> case, if they're refusing IDs from minors, then this database seems less
> useful for establishing how many minors smoke. I have to wonder just what
> the rationale in the settlement for such a database is.
> 
> Thanks for the information - for a little bit I wasn't sure if this was
> for real or not. 

It is for part II of the settlement. When they have the names of all of
the smokers, they then cancel your health insurance for "knowingly
engaging in unhealthy activity".

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 31 14:36:16 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:36:16 -0800
Subject: Face Recognition Technolgy Is Next - Big Brother Arrives
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329215048.04234e40@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E0676E6@MISSERVER>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010331142424.00a8fec0@idiom.com>


Mask laws in the US, when they're not about bank robbers,
are generally targeted against the Klan.  The KKK occasionally
claims to have religious content - they're out burning crosses -
but that hasn't stopped enforcement that often.

At 09:51 PM 03/29/2001 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 09:09 PM 3/29/01 -0800, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
>>What about Islam?
>
>What about men?

Islam is highly varied - some of the Arab and Persian cultures
are heavily into veils for women, some aren't.  Not sure about Indian.
The Taliban have recently been requiring that men grow beards
(I'm not sure if they require long ones or if short is ok.)

Some of the Arab traditional headdress for men has the
relatively lightweight kaffiyehs, like Yassir Arafat wears,
while some go for heavier, more concealing coverage such as the
turban-like things the Tuareg and other deep-desert folks wear.
That doesn't have religious significance - it's about sunburn and
sand and wind and heat and cold, and immensely practical stuff
if you live in that climate, as well as culturally familiar,
just as cowboy hats and bandannas are sometimes practical
and sometimes just for style.

Many of the Sikh turbans cover the beard as well as the hair.
And Sikhs do get hassled at airports.

You can always go with Nun outfits.  It's easier to get away with
if you're female, but here in San Francisco that's certainly
not a requirement...

Sports events should give you lots of options.
Ski masks, football helmets, hockey goalie masks, green paint -
just make sure you're wearing a jersey for the right team :-)






From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 31 14:42:57 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:42:57 -0800
Subject: ecash tech layoffs
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010329215718.04233d80@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330001329.024aadf0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010331144200.00a83d00@idiom.com>


At 10:00 PM 03/29/2001 -0800, Steve Schear wrote to cypherpunks:
>At 12:14 AM 3/30/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>http://www.localbusiness.com/City/0,1123,SEA,00.html
>>
>>EXCLUSIVE BOTHELL, Wash., Mar. 29 (LocalBusiness.com) -- ECash 
>>Technologies Inc. has cut its workforce from 65 to 40 due to a 
>>"narrowing" of its business, John Filby, president and CEO for eCash, 
>>told LocalBusiness.com today.
>
>The only surprise is that they are still around.  Despite the early hoopla 
>eCash did little more than dust off DigiCash's old business 
>model.  Nothing like a foolish consistency to guide one on the road to failure.

Does that mean the price of the patents will be lower the next time
they get sold off?





From comsec.os at virgin.net  Sat Mar 31 15:59:46 2001
From: comsec.os at virgin.net (comsec.os)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 15:59:46 -0800
Subject: VREY URGENT
References: <20010331233127.5882.qmail@web8001.mail.in.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002101e01eb1$775f64e0$d349a8c2@oemcomputer>


bull shit
p.j
----- Original Message ----- 
From: SOLOMON BALOGUN <solomon_balogun at yahoo.co.in>
To: <cypherpunks at toad.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 1:31 AM
Subject: VREY URGENT


> 
> No 9 EZEANI CLOSE,
> NEW HAVEN, ENUGU
> ENUGU STATE,
> NIGERIA
> FAX:234-1-7597635 
> VERY URGENT BUSINESS TRANSACTION
> 
> DEAR SIR,
> 
> IN ORDER TO TRANSFER OUT (USD 26 MILLION DOLLARS) FROM
> OUR BANK. I HAVE THE COURAGE TO ASK YOU TO LOOK FOR A
> RELIABLE AND HONEST PERSON WHO WILL BE CAPABLE FOR
> THIS IMPORTANT BUSINESS BELIEVING THAT YOU WILL NEVER
> LET ME DOWN EITHER NOW OR IN FUTURE.
> 
> I AM MR. SOLOMON BALOGUN THE EASTERN DISTRICT BANK
> MANAGER OF
> UNITED BANK FOR AFRICA PLC. (UBA). THERE IS AN ACCOUNT
> OPENED IN THIS BANK IN 1980 AND SINCE 1990
> NOBODY HAS OPERATED ON THIS ACCOUNT AGAIN. AFTER GOING
> THROUGH SOME OLD FILES IN THE RECORDS I DISCOVERED
> THAT IF I DO NOT REMITT THIS MONEY OUT URGENTLY IT
> WILL BE FORFEITED FOR NOTHING.
> 
> THE OWNER OF THIS ACCOUNT IS MR. SMITH B. ANDREAS, A
> FOREIGNER, AND THE MANAGER OF PETRO - TECHNICAL
> SUPPORT SERVICES, A CHEMICAL ENGINEER BY PROFESSION
> AND  HE DIED SINCE 1990. NO OTHER PERSON KNOWS ABOUT
> THIS ACCOUNT OR ANY THING CONCERNING IT, THE ACCOUNT
> HAS NO OTHER BENEFICIARY AND MY INVESTIGATION PROVED
> TO ME AS WELL THAT THIS COMPANY DOES NOT KNOW ANYTHING
> ABOUT THIS ACCOUNT AND THE AMOUNT INVOLVED IS (USD 26
> MILLION DOLLARS). I WANT TO TRANSFER THIS MONEY INTO A
> SAFE FOREIGNERS ACCOUNT ABROAD BUT I DON'T KNOW ANY
> FOREIGNER, I AM ONLY CONTACTING YOU AS A FOREIGNER
> BECAUSE THIS MONEY CAN NOT BE APPROVED TO A LOCAL BANK
> HERE, BUT CAN ONLY BE APPROVED TO ANY FOREIGN ACCOUNT
> BECAUSE THE MONEY IS IN US DOLLARS AND THE FORMER
> OWNER OF THE ACCOUNT IS MR. SMITH B. ANDREAS IS  A
> FOREIGNER TOO.  I KNOW THAT THIS MASSAGE WILL COME TO
> YOU AS A SURPRISE AS WE  DON'T KNOW OUR SELVES BEFORE,
> BUT BE SURE THAT IT IS REAL AND A GENUINE BUSINESS. I
> ONLY GOT YOUR CONTACT ADDRESS FROM THE COMPUTER ,WITH
> BELIEVE IN GOD THAT YOU WILL NEVER LET ME DOWN IN THIS
> BUSINESS YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON THAT I HAVE CONTACTED
> IN THIS BUSINESS, SO PLEASE REPLY URGENTLY SO THAT I
> WILL INFORM YOU THE NEXT STEP TO TAKE URGENTLY. SEND
> ALSO YOUR PRIVATE TELEPHONE AND FAX NUMBER INCLUDING
> THE FULL DETAILS OF THE ACCOUNT TO BE USED FOR THE
> DEPOSIT.
> 
> I WANT US TO MEET FACE TO FACE OR SIGN A BINDING
> AGREEMENT TO BIND US TOGETHER SO THAT YOU CAN RECIEVE
> THIS MONEY INTO A FORIEGN ACCOUNT OR ANY ACCOUNT OF
> YOUR CHOICE WHERE THE FUND WILL BE SAFE. AND I WILL
> FLY TO YOUR COUNTRY FOR WITHDRAWAL AND SHARING AND
> OTHER INVESTMENTS.
> 
>  I AM CONTACTING YOU BECAUSE OF THE NEED TO INVOLVE A
> FOREIGNER WITH FOREIGN ACCOUNT AND FOREIGN
> BENEFICIARY. I NEED YOUR FULL CO-OPERATION TO MAKE
> THIS WORK FINE. BECAUSE THE MANAGEMENT IS READY TO
> APPROVE THIS PAYMENT TO ANY FOREIGNER WHO HAS CORRECT
> INFORMATION OF THIS ACCOUNT, WHICH I WILL GIVE TO YOU
> LATER IMMEDIATELY, IF YOU ARE ABLE AND WITH CAPABILITY
> TO HANDLE SUCH AMOUNT IN STRICT CONFIDENCE AND TRUST
> ACCORDING TO MY INSTRUCTIONS AND ADVICE FOR OUR MUTUAL
> BENEFIT BECAUSE THIS OPPORTUNITY WILL NEVER COME AGAIN
> IN MY LIFE. I NEED TRUTHFUL PERSON IN THIS BUSINESS
> BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO MAKE MISTAKE I NEED YOUR
> STRONG ASSURANCE AND TRUST.
> 
> WITH MY POSITION NOW IN THE OFFICE I CAN TRANSFER THIS
> MONEY TO ANY FOREIGNER'S RELIABLE ACCOUNT WHICH YOU
> CAN PROVIDE WITH ASSURANCE THAT THIS MONEY WILL BE
> INTACT PENDING MY PHYSICAL ARRIVAL IN YOUR COUNTRY FOR
> SHARING. I WILL DESTROY ALL DOCUMENTS OF TRANSACTION
> IMMEDIATELY WE RECIEVE THIS MONEY LEAVING NO TRACE TO
> ANY PLACE. YOU CAN ALSO COME TO DISCUSS WITH ME FACE
> TO FACE AFTER WHICH I WILL MAKE THIS REMITTANCE IN
> YOUR PRESENCE AND TWO OF US WILL FLY TO YOUR COUNTRY
> AT LEAST TWO DAYS AHEAD OF THE MONEY GOING INTO THE
> ACCOUNT.
> 
> I WILL APPLY FOR ANNUAL LEAVE TO GET VISA IMMEDIATELY
> I HEAR FROM YOU THAT YOU ARE READY TO ACT AND RECEIVE
> THIS FUND IN YOUR ACCOUNT. I WILL USE MY POSITION AND
> INFLUENCE TO EFFECT LEGAL APPROVALS AND ONWARD
> TRANSFER OF THIS MONEY TO YOUR ACCOUNT WITH
> APPROPRIATE CLEARANCE FORMS OF THE MINISTRIES AND
> FOREIGN EXCHANGE DEPARTMENTS.
> 
> AT THE CONCLUSION OF THIS BUSINESS, YOU WILL BE GIVEN
> 35% OF THE TOTAL AMOUNT, 60% WILL BE FOR ME, WHILE 5%
> WILL BE FOR EXPENSES BOTH PARTIES MIGHT HAVE INCURED
> DURING THE PROCESS OF TRANSFERING.
> 
> I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR EARLIEST REPLY BY FAX ONLY.
> FAX LINE: 234-1-7597635.
> 
> YOURS TRULY,
> 
> SOLOMON BALOGUN.
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> For regular News updates go to http://in.news.yahoo.com
> 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Mar 31 14:37:49 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 16:37:49 -0600
Subject: Binary Black Hole Grand Challenge - What is LIGO?
Message-ID: <3AC65C3D.9A23D9D1@ssz.com>


http://wwwrel.ph.utexas.edu/Center/GC/page1.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From measl at mfn.org  Sat Mar 31 14:40:19 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 16:40:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [INCIDENTS] smtp DDoS just stopped. (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103311637260.12264-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



Not exactly on topic, but since ZKS is frequently under discussion here, I
thought some of you might be interested...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:04:55 -0500
From: Sebastien Berube <sberube at ZEROKNOWLEDGE.COM>
To: INCIDENTS at SECURITYFOCUS.COM
Subject: [INCIDENTS] smtp DDoS just stopped.

I would just like to inform everybody our organisation just went under a
heavy smtp DoS.  The symptoms where thousands of connections established
from at first the same source to the smtp port of one of our MX.  Once
we've started blocking this particular IP address, the connections started
comming from a different address.  And so on for about 3 hours.  I had to
write a quick and dirty connection tracker to determine if each source IP
had more than 15 connections.  If it did, I'd block them.

What we where able to deterimne is that every host that was used to DoS us
where Windows based machines.  All of these hosts where running IIS4 or
IIS5.  We also where able to notice that the hosts used for the attack
where being used in alphabetical order of their domain name as we blocked
them.

Regards.

--
Sebastien Berube
Unix Systems Administrator
sberube at zeroknowledge.com





From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Mar 31 14:41:48 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 16:41:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Mr. Choate, an important message  from Justice , Scalia....
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010326102630.00a48cc0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010331163924.14587S-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> If you don't like the idea that the Supreme's job is interpreting
> the constitutionality of laws made by the legislature,

Ding ding, somebody got the difference. Though they still don't understand
the implications (or which side I'm arguing). That's ok, it will come with
time.

I have zero, nada, nill, null, none, no problem with the SC interpreting
the constitutionality of laws made by the legislature.

This is however, different from interpreting the Constitution itself.

The Constitution says "....under..."

    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sethf at MIT.EDU  Sat Mar 31 14:20:50 2001
From: sethf at MIT.EDU (Seth Finkelstein)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 17:20:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CDR "Educating" the Defense about Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <a05010412b6ebb7bfa4ca@[207.111.241.172]>
References: <200103311235.HAA03617@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
	    <a05010412b6ebb7bfa4ca@[207.111.241.172]>
Message-ID: <200103312220.RAA12435@oobleck.mit.edu>


Tim May wrote:
> Trying to "explain" the Cypherpunk ideology and outlook (such as it
> is), is not likely to be helpful. Not that John's or Declan's or
> anyone else's job is to help Bell in his defense. Bell chose his path.

	In a way, part of the above message is a proof of some of my
thoughts. I didn't suggest that the defense attorney try to preach to
the court. My suggestion was it would be helpful to a fair trial for
him to understand some of the background. Because (from what I read), he
seemed to be very much at sea with what he's been given. I could be
wrong, but it was merely a private suggestion to someone who seemed
very concerned about the case (sorry John, not trying to tar you). To
ordinary people, this might even be stating the obvious.

	That was immediately converted into the idea that it was a
suggestion that the defense attorney should rant at the court. Which
is very revealing about the "ideology and outlook".

> Anyone think this would be useful?:
>
> "Your Honor, I was given a lengthy briefing by members of the list,
> given copies of their posts and their manifestos. I now understand
> them. I now understand why Jim Bell is advocating the
> assassination-by-lottery of judges and prosecutors. Fuck the State,
> Man!"
>
> Useful? Didn't think so.

	It wouldn't be useful to say that to the court. But in
fact, if the defense attorney DOES NOT understand the background,
it seemed it might help for him to know it.

	You say: "... Bell does not represent my views--and vice
versa." While it's an overstatement to say that Bell REPRESENTS your
views, I'd say it's extremely useful to understand those views of yours.
The number of times you, personally, have talked about who "needs killing",
is amazing. In fact, "needs killing" is virtually a running joke.

	Thus my take on some of this, is that there's an aspect of
"It's all fun and games, until someone's eye gets put out" (or someone
takes it too far, and gets arrested). Now, I know the automatic flame
in response to this. Does that mean you, or anyone else, are
responsible for what Jim Bell did? Not at all. However, if someone is
the defense attorney, it sure can be useful to understand some of
Bell's bombastic statements in the context of the violent rhetoric
whichs acts like an "Amen" sometimes. That's "understand", not
"consider responsible for", got it?

	As to "Assassination Politics", many people get way too
focused on the technical details in relation to the case. If Bell's
overall actions are examined, it look a lot like he's soliciting
murder of Federal agents. Maybe his implementation wouldn't be
anonymous, and wouldn't pay off. Hypothetically, trying to soliciting
murder anonymously and failing, and not paying, aren't mitigating to
the crime involved.

	I suppose, given the tenor of the times, I should state that
I've never met Jim Bell, never had any contact with him (personal or
e-mail), and don't want any. Nor, for what it's worth, am I an agent
of the Federal government, nor connected with the prosecution in any way,
shape or form, nor have any interest there. I did feel some sympathy
for the defense attorney Robert Leen when reading some messages. Oh,
and I go way back with Declan McCullagh, I can't deny that.

__
Seth Finkelstein  Consulting Programmer  sethf at mit.edu  http://sethf.com




From BF at farc.org  Sat Mar 31 17:24:55 2001
From: BF at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 17:24:55 -0800
Subject: AP is *not* the point
Message-ID: <3AC68366.D85797E2@farc.org>


At 05:20 PM 3/31/01 -0500, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> them. I now understand why Jim Bell is advocating the
>> assassination-by-lottery of judges and prosecutors. Fuck the State,
>> Man!"

Um, he's not *advocating*.  He pointed out that such systems were
inevitable.

He was pointing to a primitive culture that had just discovered metal
smelting and gunpowder and
remarked that the the petty feudal barons who intimidated the sheeple
with swords and horses were
going to see interesting times.

>views, I'd say it's extremely useful to understand those views of
yours.
>The number of times you, personally, have talked about who "needs
killing",
>is amazing. In fact, "needs killing" is virtually a running joke.

"Reminds me of when a sociologist was interviewing a southern farmer:
Why do you think the murder rate is higher in the south?
I guess more southerners need killin'." (as told by Aaron Evans)

A primer on Rand and initiation of force for a jury of proles?   Hoo
hah.

> Thus my take on some of this, is that there's an aspect of
>"It's all fun and games, until someone's eye gets put out" (or someone
>takes it too far, and gets arrested).

Most of us would say that stink bombing the IRS (which got Mr B noticed)
was inappropriate.
Or at least inadequately covert, as he got caught.  Some would even
call for something more brisant or acetylcholinesterase inhibiting than
a stink bomb.
Whatever.  JB's troubles aren''t about AP except that it sounds scary.

Maybe the stinkbomb was a publicity stunt for AP.

>. Does that mean you, or anyone else, are
>responsible for what Jim Bell did?

Its possible that even Jim Bell wasn't responsible for his actions,
which might have been a good defense once, but folks don't
like to consider themselves (in the words of Teddy K.) "sickies".

> As to "Assassination Politics", many people get way too
>focused on the technical details in relation to the case.
> If Bell's overall actions are examined, it look a lot like he's
soliciting
>murder of Federal agents. Maybe his implementation wouldn't be
>anonymous, and wouldn't pay off. Hypothetically, trying to soliciting
>murder anonymously and failing, and not paying, aren't mitigating to
>the crime involved.

He hasn't set up a site.  He wrote a whitepaper, a technical report.
IIRC someone
else (Toto?) set up an inert mock site.

> I suppose, given the tenor of the times, I should state that
>I've never met Jim Bell, never had any contact with him (personal or

#include <std_cypherpunk_disclaimer.h>






From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 31 17:33:45 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 17:33:45 -0800
Subject: Louis Freeh and False Alarms [RISKS]
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010331173058.009f8380@idiom.com>


Obviously this calls for wiretaps on Freeh's phones and email and
hidden cameras in his house to prevent future occurrences....

 From [risks] Risks Digest 21.28
=========================
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:57:54 -0500
From: Graystreak <wex at media.mit.edu>
Subject: Risks of self-induced false alarms

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38625-2001Mar7.html

FBI Director Louis J. Freeh said he and his wife had been baffled by a
series of false alarms from the security system in their Great Falls area
home. Fairfax County police responded each time, but no suspects had been
nabbed.

It seems that two of his six sons, then ages 5 and 4, had been amusing
themselves by making their 2-year-old brother run in circles in the basement
to set off the motion detector. "They would sit and watch for the police to
come," Freeh said.

[AW notes: no discussion of why the motion detector was on in the basement
while the children were home, nor why the police didn't adopt a "call before
responding" policy after some number of false alarms.]

=================================================




From sethf at MIT.EDU  Sat Mar 31 14:51:32 2001
From: sethf at MIT.EDU (Seth Finkelstein)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 17:51:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CDR Re: Robert Leen, and getting Jim Bell a fair trial
References: <200103311235.HAA03617@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200103312251.RAA12468@oobleck.mit.edu>


> Seth,
> 
> I've publicly asked that no private e-mail be sent to me about 
> the Bell case. Do it in public or not at all. 

	Sorry, I must've missed that. What I thought you said was
not "no private e-mail", but

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/current/msg00190.html

    "Remember, do not e-mail, telephone or visit me or you're
     subject to subpoena. Same for tarred Declan, or anybody else
     pissants Choate and Leen are eager to CDR."

	I didn't think that such messages to you were going to put me
at high risk of being subpoena'ed (that's simply my calculation).

> You could be tarring me as others have done, for whatever noble
> reason. Offense intended.

	Under the circumstances, I won't take offense. An accusation
like that is hard to address, but I've always thought that getting
huffy about it would be counter-productive to any disproof.

> You are way behind the curve on this matter,

	Could be. Reading some postings doesn't make me an expert on
the case, and I don't claim to be. That's a reason why I sent my
comments privately, rather than making a public issue.

> and privately whispering advice is cowardly, 

	Disagree. I thought it was appropriate. After reading your
*public* postings, finding them interesting, and doing some more reading
of my own, I thought you were probably being very unfair to Robert Leen.
But I really had no desire to get into a long debate with Tim May or
similar. That's not cowardly, that's rational.

> not unlike noble journalists and attorneys have done to me. Show
> your face, no stalking, thanks.

	Umm, I didn't send anything anonymously. And if your e-mail
is being monitored or subpoena'ed, note I'm not hiding my face. Private
advice seemed to be sensible. Or at least that was my view of it.

__
Seth Finkelstein  Consulting Programmer  sethf at mit.edu  http://sethf.com




From Tonya at cyberpass.net  Sat Mar 31 17:59:44 2001
From: Tonya at cyberpass.net (Tonya at cyberpass.net)
Date: 31 Mar 2001 17:59:44 -0800
Subject: FWD: Nasty NAsty
Message-ID: <20010331185262.SM01188@mail.sisna.com>


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From remailer at anon.xg.nu  Sat Mar 31 16:03:50 2001
From: remailer at anon.xg.nu (Public <Anonymous_Account>)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:03:50 -0600
Subject: "Educating" the Court about Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <503674e7a226d24cf1449c09035e8e8d@anon.xg.nu>



>Frankly, the more the court, or any of its officers, knows about the 
>CP ideology, the less sympathetic and useful they will be.

This is true.

Today there are very few collections of individuals that oppose government in
general and that have more than 1% of intelligent, coherent, technologically
savvy members. Cypherpunk MOVEMENT is one of those, and it is dangerous to
the government, for the good reason.

Come to think of it, I cannot recall any other MOVEMENT that comes
even close to cypherpunks. Most clans that deal with arms ... I mean
technology ... are mostly gadgeteers or plain cults. Cypherpunks (at
least 2% of them) have a clear agenda and expertise to achieve it.

Very dangerous, as we are finding out.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Mar 31 16:04:27 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:04:27 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | CPUC Tells Northpoint To Restart Network
Message-ID: <3AC6708B.DA5C9344@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/31/2058204.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

       Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason.

                                             Miguel de Cervantes

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Mar 31 18:18:36 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:18:36 -0800
Subject: Screwing Jim Bell 5
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010328194504.14587Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com
 >
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103281738160.16068-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010331181410.00a0d080@idiom.com>


At 07:46 PM 03/28/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
> > Since when did search engines archive images?
>
>Quite a while now. Google for example has a long history of being a
>saviour for many a lost webpage. You can also look at the various database
>projects that 'store the Internet'. IBM has one.

Generally Google only caches the text, not the pictures.
For example, if you look at the following page,
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.idiom.com/~wcs/duchamp.html+duchamp+anonymizer&hl=en

you'll see that the picture reference is <IMG SRC=duchamp1.jpg>
which expands to   http://www.idiom.com/~wcs/duchamp1.jpg

If you try to see if Google cached it anyway, by looking at
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.idiom.com/~wcs/duchamp1.jpg
it's not there.




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Mar 31 05:23:35 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:23:35 +0500
Subject: Louis Freeh and False Alarms [RISKS]
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010331173058.009f8380@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010331180058.00c50270@flex.com>


In response to AW, it's very simple.  Some animals are not only more equal,
but more important than others.  Gee, that redundantly repeats itself.

Trivia file entry # 1:  In the land of the brave, home of the Freeh, there
are motion detectors in the basement.  Nice.  Squeak squeak.

At 05:33 PM 3/31/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
 >Obviously this calls for wiretaps on Freeh's phones and email and
 >hidden cameras in his house to prevent future occurrences....
 >
 > From [risks] Risks Digest 21.28
 >=========================
 >Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:57:54 -0500
 >From: Graystreak <wex at media.mit.edu>
 >Subject: Risks of self-induced false alarms
 >
 >http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38625-2001Mar7.html
 >
 >FBI Director Louis J. Freeh said he and his wife had been baffled by a
 >series of false alarms from the security system in their Great Falls area
 >home. Fairfax County police responded each time, but no suspects had been
 >nabbed.
 >
 >It seems that two of his six sons, then ages 5 and 4, had been amusing
 >themselves by making their 2-year-old brother run in circles in the basement
 >to set off the motion detector. "They would sit and watch for the police to
 >come," Freeh said.
 >
 >[AW notes: no discussion of why the motion detector was on in the basement
 >while the children were home, nor why the police didn't adopt a "call before
 >responding" policy after some number of false alarms.]
 >
 >=================================================
 >
 > 




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From: keywordranking at excite.com (keywordranking at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:59:29 +0800 (CST)
Subject: FW:Website Traffic Building
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From alan at clueserver.org  Sat Mar 31 19:12:14 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:12:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Gifting
In-Reply-To: <de.126a9463.27f7dd76@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103311910120.4266-100000@clueserver.org>


On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 Fongwen at aol.com wrote:

> I wonder if you could help me.  Have you heard of any "leads" to help me find 
> 2 people to join?  Perhaps there is someone who has been gifted many times 
> over who would help me.  I have been in one activity for 2 months and talked 
> to 40 something people.  I simply don't have the friends or contacts to find 
> people to join me.  They are too afraid; they don't like to talk about money; 
> they are afraid they will lose it; they have heard so many negative things; 
> or they think it is illegal, a pyramid scam or something.

It is illegal and it *IS* pyramid scam. Anyone who tells you it is not is
trying to "gift" you.

> I am a conservative Protestant Christian lady, divorced, who hurts 
> financiallly since I was divorced. 

"Here in this new age, there is a seeker born every minute."

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From blair2000 at gala.net  Sat Mar 31 07:44:43 2001
From: blair2000 at gala.net (base sales)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:44:43 +0400
Subject: =?windows-1251?B?wcDH2w==?=
Message-ID: <000501c0b9f9$864d9300$0100007f@localhost>


ПРЕДЛАГАЕМ:

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From Fongwen at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 17:25:10 2001
From: Fongwen at aol.com (Fongwen at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:25:10 EST
Subject: Gifting
Message-ID: <de.126a9463.27f7dd76@aol.com>


I wonder if you could help me.  Have you heard of any "leads" to help me find 
2 people to join?  Perhaps there is someone who has been gifted many times 
over who would help me.  I have been in one activity for 2 months and talked 
to 40 something people.  I simply don't have the friends or contacts to find 
people to join me.  They are too afraid; they don't like to talk about money; 
they are afraid they will lose it; they have heard so many negative things; 
or they think it is illegal, a pyramid scam or something.

I am a conservative Protestant Christian lady, divorced, who hurts 
financiallly since I was divorced.  I came back to Chicago from L.A. and got 
myself deeply in debt on 2 credit cards.  I don't know what else to do.  
Someone said there were "leads" out there.

I could try and get myself out of the one I'm in - and opt out.  But I 
believe in the concept.  If this is people helping people, can't someone help 
the new people?  I have another friend who lost her job in September and has 
had a very difficult time.  She doesn't have 2 friends either.  

Thanks so much for your help,
Wendy





From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Sat Mar 31 21:04:54 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:04:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Gifting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103311910120.4266-100000@clueserver.org> from "Alan Olsen" at Mar 31, 2001 07:12:14 PM
Message-ID: <200104010504.f3154sc07563@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Alan Olsen wrote:

> It is illegal and it *IS* pyramid scam. Anyone who tells you it is not is
> trying to "gift" you.

Christians trying to get other Christians to help them, in order that
still other Christians will help those Christians, is an "Illegal Pyramid
Scheme?" 

We seem to have laws against everything now, don't we.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 21:08:10 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:08:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CCL (Crypto Carrying License)
Message-ID: <20010401050810.99076.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>


In the test lab for USA future, C is becoming a controlled substance.


>From http://www.ntk.net/ :

More cut-and-pasting from ukcrypto, Britain's last remaining form of
parliamentary oversight. This week: the government's plans to require
all security consultants to register with the authorities, and be
strictly licensed afore passing on their forbidden, arcane wisdom. First
the bad news: the bill in question, the PRIVATE SECURITY INDUSTRY BILL,
is already at its Commons' Second Reading, and is set to be law in two
months (barring those pesky elections). Now, the good news: at the
reading, HO minister Charles "RIP" Clarke said it's mainly aimed at
security guards and bouncers, not IT security consultants. Now, the bad
news: he added the word "currently" - and, "currently", the Home Office
says it *does* apply to computer consultants, but they won't get around
to enforcing that until 2005. Now the good news: the main restriction on
the license is that you mustn't have a serious criminal record.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Mar 31 21:22:48 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:22:48 -0800
Subject: U.S. Secret Service raids E-Gold currency exchanger
In-Reply-To: <p04320400b6ebe9679584@[65.5.86.210]>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>  
  <20010330142128.B15803@cluebot.com>  
  <5.0.2.1.0.20010330201011.02143a70@mail.well.com>  
  <5.0.2.1.0.20010330203318.02126150@mail.well.com> 
  <v042101ebb6eae9a56878@[192.168.0.4]>
  <a0501040fb6eb08ff960d@[207.111.241.172]>
  <p04320400b6ebe9679584@[65.5.86.210]>
Message-ID: <a05010414b6ec6b71dcb3@[207.111.241.172]>


At 12:15 PM -0800 3/31/01, Kevin Elliott wrote:
>At 20:13 -0800  on  3/30/01, Tim May wrote:
>>What sort of "nastygrams" did your lawyers send?
>>
>>Article writers are free, in a free society, to pick the headlines they wish.
>
>Tsk, tsk Tim.  In a free society people are also free to send those 
>writers letters warning them of inaccuracies in there article 
>(including the headlines).  AND the newsperson is well advised to 
>correct such in things when they are in fact they are untrue. 
>Failure to do so can and should result in a libel suit.  Such is the 
>way things should work in a free society...

I don't care for your characterization of my views. Please correct 
this immediately or face a lawsuit.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Mar 31 21:28:08 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:28:08 -0800
Subject: Robert Leen, and getting Jim Bell a fair trial
In-Reply-To: <200103312251.RAA12468@oobleck.mit.edu>
References: <200103311235.HAA03617@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
  <200103312251.RAA12468@oobleck.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <a05010415b6ec6c791ac2@[207.111.241.172]>


At 5:51 PM -0500 3/31/01, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
>
>But I really had no desire to get into a long debate with Tim May or
>similar. That's not cowardly, that's rational.

I haven't expressed any interesting in debating you. Your views are 
not interesting enough to debate. (Not meant to be offensive, just my 
opinion of your views on things.)


--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sat Mar 31 22:15:49 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:15:49 -0600
Subject: CCL (Crypto Carrying License)
In-Reply-To: <20010401050810.99076.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEPNCIAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


> More cut-and-pasting from ukcrypto, Britain's last remaining form of
> parliamentary oversight. This week: the government's plans to require
> all security consultants to register with the authorities, and be
> strictly licensed afore passing on their forbidden, arcane wisdom. First
> the bad news: the bill in question, the PRIVATE SECURITY INDUSTRY BILL,
> is already at its Commons' Second Reading, and is set to be law in two
> months (barring those pesky elections). Now, the good news: at the
> reading, HO minister Charles "RIP" Clarke said it's mainly aimed at
> security guards and bouncers, not IT security consultants. Now, the bad
> news: he added the word "currently" - and, "currently", the Home Office
> says it *does* apply to computer consultants, but they won't get around
> to enforcing that until 2005. Now the good news: the main restriction on
> the license is that you mustn't have a serious criminal record.

I've seen these snips today...

In the US private security consultants have numerous licenses, variable by
state. ("C & G" licenses - guns, dogs, exec protect, PIs, etc.) Aren't ya'll
just getting worked up over a misnomer? Not to say it won't happen, indeed,
some interests could make a powerful argument for tech security licenses,
the same rationale would definitely apply.

Background links:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/psib/psbinfo.htm#psbds
Break it:
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200001/cmbills/067/en
/01067x--.htm


~Aimee




From solomon_balogun at yahoo.co.in  Sat Mar 31 15:31:27 2001
From: solomon_balogun at yahoo.co.in (=?iso-8859-1?q?SOLOMON=20BALOGUN?=)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:31:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: VREY URGENT
Message-ID: <20010331233127.5882.qmail@web8001.mail.in.yahoo.com>


No 9 EZEANI CLOSE,
NEW HAVEN, ENUGU
ENUGU STATE,
NIGERIA
FAX:234-1-7597635 
VERY URGENT BUSINESS TRANSACTION

DEAR SIR,

IN ORDER TO TRANSFER OUT (USD 26 MILLION DOLLARS) FROM
OUR BANK. I HAVE THE COURAGE TO ASK YOU TO LOOK FOR A
RELIABLE AND HONEST PERSON WHO WILL BE CAPABLE FOR
THIS IMPORTANT BUSINESS BELIEVING THAT YOU WILL NEVER
LET ME DOWN EITHER NOW OR IN FUTURE.

I AM MR. SOLOMON BALOGUN THE EASTERN DISTRICT BANK
MANAGER OF
UNITED BANK FOR AFRICA PLC. (UBA). THERE IS AN ACCOUNT
OPENED IN THIS BANK IN 1980 AND SINCE 1990
NOBODY HAS OPERATED ON THIS ACCOUNT AGAIN. AFTER GOING
THROUGH SOME OLD FILES IN THE RECORDS I DISCOVERED
THAT IF I DO NOT REMITT THIS MONEY OUT URGENTLY IT
WILL BE FORFEITED FOR NOTHING.

THE OWNER OF THIS ACCOUNT IS MR. SMITH B. ANDREAS, A
FOREIGNER, AND THE MANAGER OF PETRO – TECHNICAL
SUPPORT SERVICES, A CHEMICAL ENGINEER BY PROFESSION
AND  HE DIED SINCE 1990. NO OTHER PERSON KNOWS ABOUT
THIS ACCOUNT OR ANY THING CONCERNING IT, THE ACCOUNT
HAS NO OTHER BENEFICIARY AND MY INVESTIGATION PROVED
TO ME AS WELL THAT THIS COMPANY DOES NOT KNOW ANYTHING
ABOUT THIS ACCOUNT AND THE AMOUNT INVOLVED IS (USD 26
MILLION DOLLARS). I WANT TO TRANSFER THIS MONEY INTO A
SAFE FOREIGNERS ACCOUNT ABROAD BUT I DON’T KNOW ANY
FOREIGNER, I AM ONLY CONTACTING YOU AS A FOREIGNER
BECAUSE THIS MONEY CAN NOT BE APPROVED TO A LOCAL BANK
HERE, BUT CAN ONLY BE APPROVED TO ANY FOREIGN ACCOUNT
BECAUSE THE MONEY IS IN US DOLLARS AND THE FORMER
OWNER OF THE ACCOUNT IS MR. SMITH B. ANDREAS IS  A
FOREIGNER TOO.  I KNOW THAT THIS MASSAGE WILL COME TO
YOU AS A SURPRISE AS WE  DON’T KNOW OUR SELVES BEFORE,
BUT BE SURE THAT IT IS REAL AND A GENUINE BUSINESS. I
ONLY GOT YOUR CONTACT ADDRESS FROM THE COMPUTER ,WITH
BELIEVE IN GOD THAT YOU WILL NEVER LET ME DOWN IN THIS
BUSINESS YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON THAT I HAVE CONTACTED
IN THIS BUSINESS, SO PLEASE REPLY URGENTLY SO THAT I
WILL INFORM YOU THE NEXT STEP TO TAKE URGENTLY. SEND
ALSO YOUR PRIVATE TELEPHONE AND FAX NUMBER INCLUDING
THE FULL DETAILS OF THE ACCOUNT TO BE USED FOR THE
DEPOSIT.

I WANT US TO MEET FACE TO FACE OR SIGN A BINDING
AGREEMENT TO BIND US TOGETHER SO THAT YOU CAN RECIEVE
THIS MONEY INTO A FORIEGN ACCOUNT OR ANY ACCOUNT OF
YOUR CHOICE WHERE THE FUND WILL BE SAFE. AND I WILL
FLY TO YOUR COUNTRY FOR WITHDRAWAL AND SHARING AND
OTHER INVESTMENTS.

 I AM CONTACTING YOU BECAUSE OF THE NEED TO INVOLVE A
FOREIGNER WITH FOREIGN ACCOUNT AND FOREIGN
BENEFICIARY. I NEED YOUR FULL CO-OPERATION TO MAKE
THIS WORK FINE. BECAUSE THE MANAGEMENT IS READY TO
APPROVE THIS PAYMENT TO ANY FOREIGNER WHO HAS CORRECT
INFORMATION OF THIS ACCOUNT, WHICH I WILL GIVE TO YOU
LATER IMMEDIATELY, IF YOU ARE ABLE AND WITH CAPABILITY
TO HANDLE SUCH AMOUNT IN STRICT CONFIDENCE AND TRUST
ACCORDING TO MY INSTRUCTIONS AND ADVICE FOR OUR MUTUAL
BENEFIT BECAUSE THIS OPPORTUNITY WILL NEVER COME AGAIN
IN MY LIFE. I NEED TRUTHFUL PERSON IN THIS BUSINESS
BECAUSE I DON’T WANT TO MAKE MISTAKE I NEED YOUR
STRONG ASSURANCE AND TRUST.

WITH MY POSITION NOW IN THE OFFICE I CAN TRANSFER THIS
MONEY TO ANY FOREIGNER’S RELIABLE ACCOUNT WHICH YOU
CAN PROVIDE WITH ASSURANCE THAT THIS MONEY WILL BE
INTACT PENDING MY PHYSICAL ARRIVAL IN YOUR COUNTRY FOR
SHARING. I WILL DESTROY ALL DOCUMENTS OF TRANSACTION
IMMEDIATELY WE RECIEVE THIS MONEY LEAVING NO TRACE TO
ANY PLACE. YOU CAN ALSO COME TO DISCUSS WITH ME FACE
TO FACE AFTER WHICH I WILL MAKE THIS REMITTANCE IN
YOUR PRESENCE AND TWO OF US WILL FLY TO YOUR COUNTRY
AT LEAST TWO DAYS AHEAD OF THE MONEY GOING INTO THE
ACCOUNT.

I WILL APPLY FOR ANNUAL LEAVE TO GET VISA IMMEDIATELY
I HEAR FROM YOU THAT YOU ARE READY TO ACT AND RECEIVE
THIS FUND IN YOUR ACCOUNT. I WILL USE MY POSITION AND
INFLUENCE TO EFFECT LEGAL APPROVALS AND ONWARD
TRANSFER OF THIS MONEY TO YOUR ACCOUNT WITH
APPROPRIATE CLEARANCE FORMS OF THE MINISTRIES AND
FOREIGN EXCHANGE DEPARTMENTS.

AT THE CONCLUSION OF THIS BUSINESS, YOU WILL BE GIVEN
35% OF THE TOTAL AMOUNT, 60% WILL BE FOR ME, WHILE 5%
WILL BE FOR EXPENSES BOTH PARTIES MIGHT HAVE INCURED
DURING THE PROCESS OF TRANSFERING.

I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR EARLIEST REPLY BY FAX ONLY.
FAX LINE: 234-1-7597635.

YOURS TRULY,

SOLOMON BALOGUN.



____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
For regular News updates go to http://in.news.yahoo.com




From mob at mbox301.swipnet.se  Sat Mar 31 17:49:54 2001
From: mob at mbox301.swipnet.se (Mats O. Bergstrom)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 03:49:54 +0200
Subject: VREY URGENT
In-Reply-To: <002101e01eb1$775f64e0$d349a8c2@oemcomputer>
References: <20010331233127.5882.qmail@web8001.mail.in.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20010401030201.0096eaa0@zebra.swip.net>



>bull shit

That's for sure.

>> DEAR SIR,
>> IN ORDER TO TRANSFER OUT (USD 26 MILLION DOLLARS) FROM

This is a later day example of a so called (in Sweden; French version?)
"Nigeria-letter". This kind of scam started in the 80s (possibly earlier in
a lesser scale) by snail and later by fax - it's probably been around in the
form of "private" email for quite a time. Presumably, because of cultural
and habitual phenomenons, Euorpeans have been prime targets. Really,
legions of fools have been ruined for the purpose of this oblique kind of
"band aid" to Africa. Obviously, some not so smart "Nigerian" has now
found out about old-fashioned capital-letter spamming. I doubt he'll get
anyone on the hook.

//Mob
Stockholm




From yerdna at skif.net  Sat Mar 31 17:02:27 2001
From: yerdna at skif.net (�������������)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 04:02:27 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: ������ � �������� ��� ���:
Message-ID: <200104010102.EAA38865@backfire.skif.net>



Ответ на запрос
 
   Вы можете воспользоваться исключительной возможностью -
стать владельцем собственного интернет-магазина.
Зачем вкладывать огромные средства в
приобретение "традиционного" магазина, который будет
обслуживать людей из ближайшего квартала? Станьте владельцем
собственного интернет-магазина и его покупателями будут люди со
всего мира. 
      Кроме того, используя потенциал компании Ecommerce™ International
Вы можете построить свою сеть таких интернет-магазинов по целой
стране. И для этого Вам даже не надо будет выходить из дому.
Компания Ecommerce™ International предлагает все необходимое для
реализации этой необыкновенной возможности. 

Выгоды и удобства для Вас:
      Становясь владельцем собственного интернет-магазина Вы получаете
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возможность неограниченного роста прибыли - Вы сами определяете уровень
своих доходов и успеха

нет начальника - Вы работаете только для себя, Вы - хозяин своей судьбы. 

Для получения дополнительной информации и полной демонстрации системы,
посетите эти разделы:
 
http://www.glecsys.com/197827/anons8.htm
 
http://www.glecsys.com/197827/startshop.htm
 
http://www.ebazar.narod.ru
 
с уважением, администратор проекта
---------------------------------------------------------------
данное письмо направлено Вам в ответ на запрос,
размещенный на общедоступном сервере о поиске работы




From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl  Sat Mar 31 21:38:41 2001
From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous)
Date: Sun,  1 Apr 2001 07:38:41 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: AP is *not* the point
Message-ID: <330d920b3055766a9689cca51320696c@mix2.hyperreal.pl>



>Um, he's not *advocating*.  He pointed out that such systems were
>inevitable.

So he is new Galileo then.

Shattering the geocentrism endangered only the theological dogma,
and he almost got barbecued. The church in question admitted wrongdoing
350 years after Galileo's death (in 1992). 

The mere intensity of state's handling of Jim Bell suggests
that there is something genuine about AP, but what it is still escapes me.

On another hand, maybe I would doubt Galileo as well.

Cypherpunk Movement Secretary

ps. I want to remind everyone not to miss the secret meeting
in Washington, DC, on April 13, 8 pm, at Pedro's.

(this message is intended only for Cypherpunk members)